1
00:00:07,033 --> 00:00:08,600
TV HOST:
Now, for reasons which
will become very clear,

2
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,600
we're going to use
first names only.

3
00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,566
Would you please
introduce yourselves?

4
00:00:12,566 --> 00:00:14,733
Misty.
Vicky.

5
00:00:14,733 --> 00:00:16,666
Sonia.
Simone.

6
00:00:16,666 --> 00:00:18,200
Misty, what you do?

7
00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:19,533
I'm a bank teller.

8
00:00:19,533 --> 00:00:21,533
TV HOST:
And Vicky?
Cosmetician.

9
00:00:21,533 --> 00:00:23,633
Sonia?
Hair dresser.

10
00:00:23,633 --> 00:00:25,433
Window display.

11
00:00:25,433 --> 00:00:27,600
Are those your
own eyelashes?

12
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,066
No.

13
00:00:29,066 --> 00:00:32,833
And Sonia,
is that your own hair?

14
00:00:32,833 --> 00:00:34,600
No.

15
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,433
That's a very
lovely dress, too,

16
00:00:36,433 --> 00:00:38,100
that you're wearing, Simone,
where did you buy it?

17
00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:39,800
Oh, I made it myself.

18
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,500
Ladies and gentlemen,

19
00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:43,666
the reasons for using
first names only

20
00:00:43,666 --> 00:00:46,400
for these very,
very charming contestants

21
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,600
is that right now
each one of them

22
00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,933
is breaking the law.

23
00:00:50,933 --> 00:00:52,300
You see,

24
00:00:52,300 --> 00:00:56,100
each of our contestants
is a man.

25
00:00:57,366 --> 00:01:01,833
♪ ♪

26
00:01:11,466 --> 00:01:16,133
♪ ♪

27
00:01:22,633 --> 00:01:27,566
♪ ♪

28
00:01:33,466 --> 00:01:37,366
I would think that
none of these trees...

29
00:01:37,366 --> 00:01:40,500
had even started growing
when I was last here.

30
00:01:43,466 --> 00:01:48,200
The times I was here
were very good times.

31
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,833
♪ ♪

32
00:02:05,133 --> 00:02:10,066
♪ ♪

33
00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:24,533
♪ ♪

34
00:02:32,566 --> 00:02:38,233
♪ ♪

35
00:02:52,333 --> 00:02:54,366
Yes, that's the house...

36
00:02:54,366 --> 00:02:56,333
when I went there.

37
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,000
And there was a swing hanging
in the end of the veranda.

38
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,766
And this was the old barn,

39
00:03:09,766 --> 00:03:12,433
where the theatricals
took place.

40
00:03:15,533 --> 00:03:18,100
Halloween 1962,

41
00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:22,633
I was being a little swan
in "Swan Lake."

42
00:03:24,933 --> 00:03:29,266
Susanna was doing
erotic dancing.

43
00:03:29,266 --> 00:03:32,233
South American dancing.

44
00:03:32,233 --> 00:03:37,300
And three of my friends were
being the Andrews Sisters.

45
00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:39,733
It looks as good
as it did then.

46
00:03:39,733 --> 00:03:43,166
(insects chirping)

47
00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,000
We all used to have
our meals there,

48
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,433
and people used
to sit out the front--

49
00:03:49,433 --> 00:03:52,266
on the veranda, or on the lawn.

50
00:03:52,266 --> 00:03:54,766
People used to do
gardening work.

51
00:03:54,766 --> 00:03:57,366
They just loved being here,

52
00:03:57,366 --> 00:03:59,766
because they had
total freedom.

53
00:04:02,066 --> 00:04:03,833
Total...

54
00:04:03,833 --> 00:04:07,233
chance to be themselves
for a change.

55
00:04:07,233 --> 00:04:13,000
The weekend of Halloween 1962

56
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,000
was when
Virginia Prince formed

57
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,033
a national sorority
of cross-dressers

58
00:04:19,033 --> 00:04:22,133
called F.P.E.,

59
00:04:22,133 --> 00:04:26,133
which is for
Full Personality Expression.

60
00:04:26,133 --> 00:04:28,000
And...

61
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,600
it was a very
interesting weekend,

62
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,333
to say the very least, though.

63
00:04:33,333 --> 00:04:36,433
There were psychiatrists
from the Kinsey Institute.

64
00:04:36,433 --> 00:04:38,966
There were people
from all over,

65
00:04:38,966 --> 00:04:42,200
there were over a hundred people
there that weekend.

66
00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:48,066
But it's, it's much the same.

67
00:04:48,066 --> 00:04:52,133
(ship horn blares)

68
00:04:55,066 --> 00:05:00,000
Visiting Casa Susanna was
almost a necessity for me.

69
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,100
I had to leave my family
in Australia and come to America

70
00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:07,966
'cause I needed to
know more about myself,

71
00:05:07,966 --> 00:05:10,566
I needed to know
what it would be like

72
00:05:10,566 --> 00:05:12,933
to live as a woman

73
00:05:12,933 --> 00:05:15,000
for an extended period.

74
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,900
And, in the back of my mind,
I thought,

75
00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:20,900
if I go to Casa Susanna
and I find that

76
00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:24,833
I'm more woman inside
than I am man,

77
00:05:24,833 --> 00:05:29,733
that might be the point
where my new life starts.

78
00:05:29,733 --> 00:05:32,700
I think there are
very few people like me

79
00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:35,500
because I was a white child

80
00:05:35,500 --> 00:05:37,533
with a single sibling,

81
00:05:37,533 --> 00:05:41,200
living on a coral island
in the middle of the Pacific.

82
00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,466
I can remember as far back
as about five,

83
00:05:45,466 --> 00:05:49,466
my sister dressing me
in one of her old dresses.

84
00:05:49,466 --> 00:05:51,566
The fact that I absolutely
adored the feeling

85
00:05:51,566 --> 00:05:53,966
and wanted it to go on,

86
00:05:53,966 --> 00:05:56,300
wished it would
happen every day,

87
00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:58,300
wished that when that my father
came home from the sea,

88
00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:01,133
I could say,
"You've got two daughters now."

89
00:06:01,133 --> 00:06:04,100
One doesn't know where
these thoughts start.

90
00:06:06,166 --> 00:06:09,100
It wasn't until
lot of years later that

91
00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:11,500
I had that experience of joy,

92
00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:15,600
of sheer joy at being able
to walk among people

93
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,000
and talk to them
without hesitation,

94
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,366
to know that they understood
the person I was,

95
00:06:21,366 --> 00:06:23,733
no matter what
I looked like inside,

96
00:06:23,733 --> 00:06:26,300
I was a real woman
and I wanted them

97
00:06:26,300 --> 00:06:28,933
to know it
and they did know it.

98
00:06:28,933 --> 00:06:33,966
♪ ♪

99
00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:39,400
DIANA:
Between my third grade
and fourth grade,

100
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,133
I would go to sleep at night

101
00:06:41,133 --> 00:06:46,133
praying that I would
wake up as a girl.

102
00:06:46,133 --> 00:06:50,100
And I would pray hard,
you know.

103
00:06:54,866 --> 00:06:56,966
It was a secret that I had,
and mostly,

104
00:06:56,966 --> 00:06:58,933
because I was very active,

105
00:06:58,933 --> 00:07:02,700
and I was very social,
and very out there,

106
00:07:02,700 --> 00:07:07,733
it didn't have much impact
in terms of what it appeared.

107
00:07:07,733 --> 00:07:09,966
But I knew that it was--
there was something

108
00:07:09,966 --> 00:07:12,700
down inside of me
that was not right,

109
00:07:12,700 --> 00:07:15,166
that was, that was
not who I was.

110
00:07:15,166 --> 00:07:18,533
And there was, and there was
no way to make it right.

111
00:07:18,533 --> 00:07:21,466
I don't... I think it's
very hard to kind of get...

112
00:07:21,466 --> 00:07:25,033
have an appreciation
for the difference...

113
00:07:25,033 --> 00:07:30,333
for me, isolated in, in Iowa,

114
00:07:30,333 --> 00:07:34,866
where, literally, you
cannot talk to anyone

115
00:07:34,866 --> 00:07:36,666
about this at all.

116
00:07:36,666 --> 00:07:39,700
You have to kind
of understand that

117
00:07:39,700 --> 00:07:42,600
my mother was very
seriously Lutheran,

118
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,600
which is a very
literal Christianity.

119
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,566
The Bible, the earth
was created in six days,

120
00:07:49,566 --> 00:07:51,966
so when I began to have
feelings about

121
00:07:51,966 --> 00:07:54,333
wishing that I were a girl,

122
00:07:54,333 --> 00:07:58,033
there was just no way
that could possibly be okay.

123
00:07:58,033 --> 00:08:01,733
And I kept thinking
I would grow out of it.

124
00:08:01,733 --> 00:08:04,366
And some... you know, there was
a kind of almost

125
00:08:04,366 --> 00:08:08,033
optimism about it,
in the face of

126
00:08:08,033 --> 00:08:12,266
pretty dark frustration.

127
00:08:12,266 --> 00:08:16,233
That, okay, you'll
get through this,

128
00:08:16,233 --> 00:08:20,866
just, just go to school,
do your school,

129
00:08:20,866 --> 00:08:25,433
do your college, get married,

130
00:08:25,433 --> 00:08:29,433
and this will go away.

131
00:08:29,433 --> 00:08:32,133
And it never did go away.

132
00:08:34,100 --> 00:08:36,366
That thing was always there,

133
00:08:36,366 --> 00:08:40,100
and there was no way
to express it.

134
00:08:40,100 --> 00:08:42,100
There was nobody,
there was no information,

135
00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:44,100
there was no library
I could go to,

136
00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:46,100
there was just no place.

137
00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:48,033
And that was the real darkness,

138
00:08:48,033 --> 00:08:49,933
that there was
kind of nothing to

139
00:08:49,933 --> 00:08:52,466
help me think about it,
even, you know.

140
00:08:52,466 --> 00:08:54,200
What must this be?

141
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,066
What is this that could
be going on with me

142
00:08:57,066 --> 00:08:59,800
that makes me
have these feelings?

143
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,300
(newsreel music playing)

144
00:09:04,300 --> 00:09:06,800
NEWSREEL NARRATOR:
Christine Jorgensen,

145
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,266
who used to answer to George,

146
00:09:08,266 --> 00:09:10,566
 
creates quite a stir
as she returns home

147
00:09:10,566 --> 00:09:11,766
to New York from Copenhagen.

148
00:09:11,766 --> 00:09:13,133
Christine hit the headlines

149
00:09:13,133 --> 00:09:15,000
following the series
of operations in Denmark

150
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,233
that transformed her
from a boy into a girl.

151
00:09:18,233 --> 00:09:20,566
All of which made her a
celebrity to meet and talk to

152
00:09:20,566 --> 00:09:24,333
when she stepped off the plane
at international airport.

153
00:09:24,333 --> 00:09:27,666
Gentlemen, please give her
a chance to talk!

154
00:09:27,666 --> 00:09:31,000
(overlapping chatter,
reporters clamoring)

155
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,833
I'm very impressed
by everyone coming.

156
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,600
REPORTER:
Christine, are you
happy to be home?

157
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,500
Yes, of course.

158
00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:41,566
What American wouldn't be?

159
00:09:41,566 --> 00:09:44,733
Have you been offered
a movie contract?

160
00:09:44,733 --> 00:09:46,833
Yes, but I haven't
accepted it.

161
00:09:46,833 --> 00:09:49,933
Do you have any plans
regarding the theater?

162
00:09:49,933 --> 00:09:51,933
No, I don't think so.

163
00:09:51,933 --> 00:09:53,766
Are you going to go on
with your photography?

164
00:09:53,766 --> 00:09:55,333
I hope so, yes.

165
00:09:55,333 --> 00:09:57,966
I see.
I'm very happy to be back,

166
00:09:57,966 --> 00:10:00,366
and I don't have any
plans at the moment,

167
00:10:00,366 --> 00:10:02,866
and I thank you all for coming,

168
00:10:02,866 --> 00:10:05,500
but I think it's too much.

169
00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:06,866
Fine, thank you very much.

170
00:10:06,866 --> 00:10:09,166
♪ ♪

171
00:10:09,166 --> 00:10:12,166
DIANA:
I was a paper boy,
and I carried the paper.

172
00:10:12,166 --> 00:10:14,666
And when I went down
to pick up the papers,

173
00:10:14,666 --> 00:10:17,200
there was Christine Jorgensen
on the front page.

174
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,333
And I think I sat down
and I read the story.

175
00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:24,566
I read it avidly.

176
00:10:24,566 --> 00:10:27,133
And that was it.

177
00:10:27,133 --> 00:10:29,600
There was nobody I could
talk to about it.

178
00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,500
If I were to talk about it,

179
00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:33,466
"Oh, this is horrible,"
that would be that,

180
00:10:33,466 --> 00:10:35,800
you know, this horrible,
sinful thing

181
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,566
that this person did

182
00:10:37,566 --> 00:10:41,866
to themselves and they will
be damned to hell

183
00:10:41,866 --> 00:10:45,000
and all my friends would
just make fun of it.

184
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,300
Talking to my parents
would be a disaster.

185
00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:51,733
♪ ♪

186
00:10:51,733 --> 00:10:53,500
It was illegal
in this country.

187
00:10:53,500 --> 00:10:57,833
So almost everybody in the
country thought it was wrong.

188
00:10:57,833 --> 00:10:59,666
All the doctors
thought it was wrong,

189
00:10:59,666 --> 00:11:01,300
it was all wrong.

190
00:11:01,300 --> 00:11:04,533
It was just barely
beginning to be contemplated

191
00:11:04,533 --> 00:11:07,000
as something that was plausible,

192
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,700
might be conceivable.

193
00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:16,300
♪ ♪

194
00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:18,300
I was pretty sure
that my mother would

195
00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:20,900
try to do something
pretty radical

196
00:11:20,900 --> 00:11:23,200
if she thought that that
was how I was.

197
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,066
Put me away in an institution

198
00:11:25,066 --> 00:11:29,900
or do electroshock
or pretty bad things

199
00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:32,900
because she sort
of believed in how people

200
00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:35,366
who have these kinds
of thoughts are treated.

201
00:11:35,366 --> 00:11:39,166
You know, that they must be sick
and they must be fixed.

202
00:11:39,166 --> 00:11:41,233
I kind of knew that
it could be really bad

203
00:11:41,233 --> 00:11:43,600
if I exposed myself.

204
00:11:45,866 --> 00:11:47,633
So by the time
I was in high school,

205
00:11:47,633 --> 00:11:50,566
I was a good athlete,
and I was a pretty good student.

206
00:11:50,566 --> 00:11:54,100
I played the trumpet,
and I played football,

207
00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:57,333
and I sang in the choir,
and I grow up...

208
00:11:57,333 --> 00:12:01,366
playing the game,
and I played it very well.

209
00:12:04,466 --> 00:12:07,966
When I got a scholarship
to Valparaiso University,

210
00:12:07,966 --> 00:12:10,133
I got into the
theater department,

211
00:12:10,133 --> 00:12:11,866
and I met Julie.

212
00:12:11,866 --> 00:12:15,066
And through the years,
we got closer and closer

213
00:12:15,066 --> 00:12:17,433
and it became kind of like...

214
00:12:17,433 --> 00:12:21,366
we should, we should
probably get married.

215
00:12:21,366 --> 00:12:23,900
We should probably...
I think we, you know,

216
00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:25,800
we thought
we loved one another.

217
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,233
And I told Julie about...

218
00:12:28,233 --> 00:12:31,366
that I had this problem.

219
00:12:31,366 --> 00:12:34,233
And, um, it was just like,

220
00:12:34,233 --> 00:12:36,366
"Oh, well, okay, so,
you have this little

221
00:12:36,366 --> 00:12:38,400
feminine side sort of thing."

222
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,933
It was not anything
very substantial about it.

223
00:12:41,933 --> 00:12:45,033
"But I'm glad you told me."

224
00:12:45,033 --> 00:12:46,800
It's a very
frustrating thing

225
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,266
when you... when they...
when people speak as though,

226
00:12:50,266 --> 00:12:52,200
"This is not a problem,

227
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,766
all you have to do
is change your mind."

228
00:12:54,766 --> 00:12:58,400
And I, I'd say, "Okay,

229
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,833
when will my mind change?"

230
00:13:00,833 --> 00:13:02,166
You know, how does it change?

231
00:13:02,166 --> 00:13:03,966
What makes me...
what makes it change?

232
00:13:03,966 --> 00:13:07,366
"Well, you just don't
think about it."

233
00:13:07,366 --> 00:13:11,333
None of those things are
even close to relevant,

234
00:13:11,333 --> 00:13:15,933
in my estimation, and they
certainly didn't work for me.

235
00:13:15,933 --> 00:13:20,666
♪ ♪

236
00:13:27,033 --> 00:13:32,466
♪ ♪

237
00:13:32,466 --> 00:13:34,700
BETSY:
Around 1994,

238
00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:37,033
my mother was about
to go into surgery.

239
00:13:37,033 --> 00:13:39,366
There was a 50-50 chance

240
00:13:39,366 --> 00:13:41,866
that she might
die on the table.

241
00:13:41,866 --> 00:13:44,033
That weekend, that Saturday,

242
00:13:44,033 --> 00:13:47,633
she started
to tell me everything.

243
00:13:47,633 --> 00:13:51,266
♪ ♪

244
00:13:51,266 --> 00:13:54,766
She brought out
boxes of photographs.

245
00:13:54,766 --> 00:13:57,800
She brought out the book
my father had written,

246
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,166
"A Year Among the Girls"
by Darrell G. Rayner,

247
00:14:01,166 --> 00:14:05,233
a book that nobody realizes
he wrote, except my mother.

248
00:14:05,233 --> 00:14:06,933
I was fascinated.

249
00:14:06,933 --> 00:14:10,766
Suddenly everything
seemed to snap into place,

250
00:14:10,766 --> 00:14:12,766
I suddenly realized that

251
00:14:12,766 --> 00:14:16,266
the church architect
in California that we,

252
00:14:16,266 --> 00:14:19,133
that I was so fond of,
was so fun,

253
00:14:19,133 --> 00:14:21,300
he was one of
the cross-dressers.

254
00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:23,666
People I had stayed
with in Ireland,

255
00:14:23,666 --> 00:14:25,133
he was a cross-dresser.

256
00:14:25,133 --> 00:14:28,800
Everybody that
my parents were most

257
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,233
close to was in
the transvestite scene.

258
00:14:33,833 --> 00:14:36,566
I suddenly realized why
I went to summer camp

259
00:14:36,566 --> 00:14:38,900
for two months
every single year

260
00:14:38,900 --> 00:14:41,866
starting when I was seven,
two entire months, away.

261
00:14:41,866 --> 00:14:45,600
So my father could go up
to Casa Susanna and dress.

262
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,266
My mother drove him there
and stayed with him,

263
00:14:48,266 --> 00:14:50,633
because he couldn't drive.

264
00:14:50,633 --> 00:14:53,266
A lot of women
were up there, too,

265
00:14:53,266 --> 00:14:56,066
the wives, and I think
they hung out together.

266
00:14:56,066 --> 00:14:58,700
But, um, my mother drove him

267
00:14:58,700 --> 00:15:02,133
to Casa Susanna
every weekend of the summer.

268
00:15:02,133 --> 00:15:04,333
And I know that
because that's why

269
00:15:04,333 --> 00:15:08,500
I went to summer camp
for eight years.

270
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,733
My father was
Donald A. Wollheim.

271
00:15:13,733 --> 00:15:15,466
He was one the founders
of the entire

272
00:15:15,466 --> 00:15:17,033
science fiction industry.

273
00:15:17,033 --> 00:15:19,066
He wrote 18

274
00:15:19,066 --> 00:15:21,066
science-fiction novels

275
00:15:21,066 --> 00:15:25,366
in a world where people
had never even heard that term.

276
00:15:27,066 --> 00:15:29,866
He grew up in Manhattan.

277
00:15:29,866 --> 00:15:34,233
My grandparents owned a
townhouse on 81st and York.

278
00:15:34,233 --> 00:15:36,400
And his childhood was

279
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,500
extremely complicated
and gothic.

280
00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:42,666
My grandfather was a doctor,

281
00:15:42,666 --> 00:15:45,700
he graduated from
Columbia Medical School in 1903.

282
00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:49,333
And he practiced on
the second floor of the house.

283
00:15:49,333 --> 00:15:51,633
And in a brownstone,
you have to walk through

284
00:15:51,633 --> 00:15:53,766
an entire floor to get
to the next staircase,

285
00:15:53,766 --> 00:15:56,966
so his children
had to walk through

286
00:15:56,966 --> 00:16:00,266
his medical offices
to get to their bedrooms.

287
00:16:00,266 --> 00:16:02,733
And my grandfather
was a specialist,

288
00:16:02,733 --> 00:16:04,833
he was a urologist
who specialized

289
00:16:04,833 --> 00:16:07,766
in venereal disease--
syphilis and gonorrhea--

290
00:16:07,766 --> 00:16:10,733
which, at that time,
was incurable and deadly.

291
00:16:10,733 --> 00:16:15,666
So, he was terrified
that his children would,

292
00:16:15,666 --> 00:16:17,933
running through
the second floor,

293
00:16:17,933 --> 00:16:20,666
touch a wet doorknob,
put their hand in their mouth,

294
00:16:20,666 --> 00:16:23,066
and get gonorrhea of the mouth.

295
00:16:23,066 --> 00:16:25,533
So, he filled his children with

296
00:16:25,533 --> 00:16:30,233
a terror of the human body,
really, and of germs.

297
00:16:30,233 --> 00:16:35,400
And I think that molded his
personality his whole life.

298
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,766
He was a very isolated
introvert.

299
00:16:40,766 --> 00:16:44,566
So, you know, he really wasn't
a... wasn't really

300
00:16:44,566 --> 00:16:47,800
a naturally social creature,
he was a shy man.

301
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,866
I'm sure he felt ugly.

302
00:16:50,866 --> 00:16:55,000
I think he had no relationship
with women at all

303
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,900
until he met my mother.

304
00:16:57,900 --> 00:16:59,366
Their first date,

305
00:16:59,366 --> 00:17:02,333
they met at
the Tyrannosaurus Rex

306
00:17:02,333 --> 00:17:04,800
in the Museum
of Natural History.

307
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,933
And...

308
00:17:06,933 --> 00:17:09,333
she was two hours late,

309
00:17:09,333 --> 00:17:11,633
and my father was
still sitting there.

310
00:17:11,633 --> 00:17:14,733
And when she saw him sitting
there, she burst into tears.

311
00:17:14,733 --> 00:17:17,666
Because she realized
he was really interested,

312
00:17:17,666 --> 00:17:19,533
otherwise he would have left.

313
00:17:21,333 --> 00:17:23,600
I think she loved my father.

314
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,666
I mean, clearly, she loved
him unconditionally,

315
00:17:25,666 --> 00:17:27,433
otherwise she would
never have driven him

316
00:17:27,433 --> 00:17:31,466
every single weekend
up to the Catskills.

317
00:17:31,466 --> 00:17:33,833
I'm sure that she
realized very early

318
00:17:33,833 --> 00:17:36,000
all about his cross-dressing.

319
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,400
For the simple reason that
when I was seven, eight, nine,

320
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,866
my girlfriends and I
would play in the house

321
00:17:41,866 --> 00:17:43,300
when my mother was out,

322
00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:45,466
and we would all put
on her negligees.

323
00:17:45,466 --> 00:17:47,600
And there was one negligee

324
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,733
that was six feet long--

325
00:17:49,733 --> 00:17:52,466
it was the prettiest one--
six feet long,

326
00:17:52,466 --> 00:17:55,300
and it had a kind of
drawstring at the chest,

327
00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:57,733
so you could expand the chest.

328
00:17:57,733 --> 00:18:00,333
And we all wanted
to wear that one.

329
00:18:00,333 --> 00:18:03,333
Of course, this was
my father's nightgown.

330
00:18:05,066 --> 00:18:07,100
And, one year,

331
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:09,533
my father said he was going
to have a dress rehearsal

332
00:18:09,533 --> 00:18:12,700
because he was going
to dress up as his sister

333
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:15,466
for Halloween the next day.

334
00:18:15,466 --> 00:18:19,333
So, I was 12, and my father

335
00:18:19,333 --> 00:18:23,066
was in the bathroom
for five hours.

336
00:18:23,066 --> 00:18:26,066
And even at 12,

337
00:18:26,066 --> 00:18:29,000
I realized that wasn't usual

338
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,966
for somebody just getting ready
for a Halloween party.

339
00:18:32,966 --> 00:18:34,833
And when he came out,

340
00:18:34,833 --> 00:18:36,700
I was really quite
frightened because he looked

341
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:38,866
very ghoulish to me.

342
00:18:38,866 --> 00:18:41,500
He had shaved his arms,
his legs, his chest,

343
00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:44,533
he had taped up his face.

344
00:18:44,533 --> 00:18:47,133
I ran into my bedroom
and slammed the door

345
00:18:47,133 --> 00:18:50,433
because I was like
momentarily shocked.

346
00:18:50,433 --> 00:18:54,200
I knew pretty immediately

347
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,400
that he was really into this,
I just didn't know the extent.

348
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,533
(train rumbling)

349
00:19:05,066 --> 00:19:09,400
♪ ♪

350
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,033
"My wife and I drove up
a Saturday morning.

351
00:19:12,033 --> 00:19:14,433
"The weather was
clear and cloudless.

352
00:19:14,433 --> 00:19:16,566
"There was a sharp
chill in the air,

353
00:19:16,566 --> 00:19:19,433
"and it was a three-hour
drive upstate.

354
00:19:19,433 --> 00:19:22,800
"The last part of the drive
took us along precipitous,

355
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,933
"winding roads near
the edges of cliffs

356
00:19:25,933 --> 00:19:29,666
"and higher and higher
into the mountains.

357
00:19:29,666 --> 00:19:31,933
"Were we nervous?

358
00:19:31,933 --> 00:19:33,733
"Of course, who would not be?

359
00:19:33,733 --> 00:19:36,000
"Were we afraid?

360
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,433
"No.

361
00:19:37,433 --> 00:19:39,600
"From these people,
we had nothing to fear.

362
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,233
"But there's still that
thrilling little tang

363
00:19:43,233 --> 00:19:45,733
"in doing something secretive,

364
00:19:45,733 --> 00:19:49,166
"something the rest of the world
knew nothing about,

365
00:19:49,166 --> 00:19:52,866
something which might have
an element of danger about it."

366
00:19:52,866 --> 00:19:57,800
♪ ♪

367
00:20:08,166 --> 00:20:10,100
Kate!
Hello, beautiful.

368
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:11,766
Hi!

369
00:20:11,766 --> 00:20:15,500
It's so good
to see you again.

370
00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:19,266
So good to see friends
from so long ago.

371
00:20:19,266 --> 00:20:22,200
I know.
I love hearing your voice.

372
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,633
(chuckles)

373
00:20:30,133 --> 00:20:32,400
So how have you been?

374
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,366
I take about seven pills
in the morning,

375
00:20:34,366 --> 00:20:36,166
and two in the
middle of the day,

376
00:20:36,166 --> 00:20:37,666
and one in
the afternoon.

377
00:20:37,666 --> 00:20:39,600
If that makes you feel
any better, I take 14 pills

378
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,433
every night when
I go to bed, so...

379
00:20:41,433 --> 00:20:43,233
You seem to be
all right.

380
00:20:43,233 --> 00:20:45,366
God, I felt like
it's been forever

381
00:20:45,366 --> 00:20:47,200
since we've
seen each other.

382
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,600
You were such
a good friend.

383
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,100
Yes.

384
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:51,400
I mean, I remember you,

385
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:52,900
I remember you
coming to the house,

386
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:55,566
I remember your eldest
when she was four.

387
00:20:55,566 --> 00:20:57,966
What... what did you think

388
00:20:57,966 --> 00:21:00,966
about my dad
during this time?

389
00:21:00,966 --> 00:21:03,533
I always found him
an admirable man.

390
00:21:03,533 --> 00:21:05,833
He, he knew a lot.

391
00:21:05,833 --> 00:21:08,933
He spoke very
intelligently about

392
00:21:08,933 --> 00:21:11,000
any topic you'd care to raise.
(chuckles)

393
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,800
Yeah.

394
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,666
He never talked about sex.

395
00:21:15,666 --> 00:21:17,666
Understandable
enough between men,

396
00:21:17,666 --> 00:21:19,166
they don't talk about sex.

397
00:21:19,166 --> 00:21:21,833
Of course they do,
but he never did,

398
00:21:21,833 --> 00:21:26,733
and... so,
I never made that link.

399
00:21:26,733 --> 00:21:29,500
He did tell me once
about the night dress

400
00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:32,166
and how he couldn't
really be happy

401
00:21:32,166 --> 00:21:34,366
unless he was sleeping
in the nightdress.

402
00:21:34,366 --> 00:21:35,833
Yeah.

403
00:21:35,833 --> 00:21:38,666
But that was something
that maybe I inferred,

404
00:21:38,666 --> 00:21:41,733
maybe he implied,

405
00:21:41,733 --> 00:21:46,033
that this happened in adulthood.

406
00:21:46,033 --> 00:21:47,666
That's what I assumed.

407
00:21:47,666 --> 00:21:50,000
And he said on one
occasion that he never even

408
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,766
thought of cross-dressing
until one time

409
00:21:51,766 --> 00:21:53,666
when he was
particularly down,

410
00:21:53,666 --> 00:21:55,833
and your mother
encouraged him to.

411
00:21:55,833 --> 00:21:58,666
Well, that's
really nice to hear.

412
00:21:58,666 --> 00:22:01,433
She was sad when she
told me about it, but I think

413
00:22:01,433 --> 00:22:03,233
she was just
a very romantic person

414
00:22:03,233 --> 00:22:05,766
and my father was probably
the least romantic man

415
00:22:05,766 --> 00:22:09,366
that ever drew breath, so...

416
00:22:09,366 --> 00:22:12,466
Although in his book,
he says they were in love,

417
00:22:12,466 --> 00:22:15,533
and I'm surprised to see--
I'm really surprised to see

418
00:22:15,533 --> 00:22:17,866
that he said that.

419
00:22:17,866 --> 00:22:20,766
'Cause I never experienced...

420
00:22:20,766 --> 00:22:24,066
I, I knew he loved
my mother, deeply,

421
00:22:24,066 --> 00:22:28,633
but I didn't see
the "in love" part.

422
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:35,733
KATHERINE:
After I had completed
all the possible

423
00:22:35,733 --> 00:22:37,733
qualifications
for librarianship,

424
00:22:37,733 --> 00:22:40,533
which was my
profession in Australia,

425
00:22:40,533 --> 00:22:42,800
I had to choose a place
where I could go

426
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,566
to add to the theory.

427
00:22:44,566 --> 00:22:48,433
At that time, I had also made
contact with cross-dressers

428
00:22:48,433 --> 00:22:50,600
in the United States
and Canada mainly,

429
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,900
through a magazine
called "Transvestia."

430
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:56,566
And all of my friends
that I'd been

431
00:22:56,566 --> 00:22:59,066
corresponding with said,
"Do come, we'd love to see you,

432
00:22:59,066 --> 00:23:00,833
love to know you."

433
00:23:00,833 --> 00:23:04,766
And so, I found myself
on a ship to Canada.

434
00:23:04,766 --> 00:23:07,100
A ship!
Remember ships?

435
00:23:07,100 --> 00:23:10,633
Yes, I was on a ship
to Canada by way of Miami,

436
00:23:10,633 --> 00:23:12,900
and I was
engaged at the time,

437
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:16,800
so I had the,
the double confusion

438
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,300
as to whether I would
go to Canada and come back

439
00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:24,433
and be a normal man
and just get married

440
00:23:24,433 --> 00:23:26,300
and live a normal life.

441
00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:30,966
Or whether, in fact,
I would stay in North America

442
00:23:30,966 --> 00:23:34,033
and take the full change,
I didn't know myself.

443
00:23:34,033 --> 00:23:38,466
And so, when, very soon
after I arrived in Canada,

444
00:23:38,466 --> 00:23:40,833
Irene, my apartment mate said,

445
00:23:40,833 --> 00:23:44,400
"Why don't we go down for the
weekend to the Casa Susanna?"

446
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,300
I was extremely interested.

447
00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,300
So, we went down
and Irene had warned people

448
00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:53,233
that I was coming with her
and so there were

449
00:23:53,233 --> 00:23:56,233
a select gathering
of people at the resort

450
00:23:56,233 --> 00:23:59,266
waiting to meet this
strange marsupial,

451
00:23:59,266 --> 00:24:04,566
trans dresser who was coming
so far around the world.

452
00:24:06,633 --> 00:24:11,866
When we arrived at the resort,
it was dark by then.

453
00:24:11,866 --> 00:24:16,033
Marie was playing
a card game with Gale

454
00:24:16,033 --> 00:24:18,800
and there was a Lee
who was a city engineer

455
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,500
I met through the magazine
"Transvestia."

456
00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:25,933
And there was,
of course, Susanna.

457
00:24:25,933 --> 00:24:28,966
Marie cooked a huge
meal of spaghetti

458
00:24:28,966 --> 00:24:31,766
and we sat around and talked,

459
00:24:31,766 --> 00:24:36,166
played card games
and talked about each other

460
00:24:36,166 --> 00:24:38,566
and talked about
ourselves and...

461
00:24:38,566 --> 00:24:40,533
for the very first
time in my life,

462
00:24:40,533 --> 00:24:44,300
I could talk to anyone
I wanted to talk to.

463
00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:47,333
I could talk to them
about subjects that

464
00:24:47,333 --> 00:24:50,566
the average person
had never even thought of

465
00:24:50,566 --> 00:24:54,833
as existing, let alone
as a difficulty in society.

466
00:24:54,833 --> 00:24:57,766
You could actually react

467
00:24:57,766 --> 00:25:00,433
with people on
a one-to-one basis,

468
00:25:00,433 --> 00:25:03,266
without there being
any misunderstanding,

469
00:25:03,266 --> 00:25:05,600
without there being
any need to say,

470
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,800
"I know I sound like a man
and I probably don't look

471
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,133
"much like a woman,
but deep down inside,

472
00:25:11,133 --> 00:25:13,900
I'm a woman and I want you
to treat me like a woman."

473
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:15,666
There was no need
for any of that.

474
00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,333
The rest of the weekend,
a lot of people

475
00:25:19,333 --> 00:25:21,533
got into groups
and said, "Why me?

476
00:25:21,533 --> 00:25:23,366
Why am I like this?"

477
00:25:23,366 --> 00:25:25,933
What was this thing
and why was it us,

478
00:25:25,933 --> 00:25:28,666
and how is it
different from being gay,

479
00:25:28,666 --> 00:25:30,433
and how is it
different from...

480
00:25:30,433 --> 00:25:32,200
well, in those days
we thought we were

481
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,733
just cross-dressers,
so how was that different

482
00:25:34,733 --> 00:25:36,966
from being
a transgender person

483
00:25:36,966 --> 00:25:38,800
who really wanted to change?

484
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,733
It was a very
difficult situation

485
00:25:41,733 --> 00:25:43,300
to try and sort out these

486
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,633
different classifications
of people.

487
00:25:46,633 --> 00:25:50,966
♪ ♪

488
00:25:56,866 --> 00:25:59,966
GREGORY:
The Catskills were a getaway

489
00:25:59,966 --> 00:26:02,333
for people from the city
and go up to the country,

490
00:26:02,333 --> 00:26:04,633
enjoy swimming,
and fishing, and boating

491
00:26:04,633 --> 00:26:07,533
and, you know, recreation,
especially in the fall.

492
00:26:07,533 --> 00:26:10,500
♪ ♪

493
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:14,966
The country place that became
known as Casa Susanna

494
00:26:14,966 --> 00:26:19,666
was initially an incredible
property called Chevalier d'Éon,

495
00:26:19,666 --> 00:26:23,000
which had a creek on it, a pond.

496
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,866
As a child, I got to
romp through the woods.

497
00:26:25,866 --> 00:26:29,900
We had a cornfield,
we had cows

498
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:31,500
'cause my grandmother leased out

499
00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:34,500
some of the fields
for them to graze on.

500
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:37,033
It was magical.

501
00:26:37,033 --> 00:26:40,366
Maria was my grandmother.

502
00:26:40,366 --> 00:26:42,833
An incredibly strong lady.

503
00:26:42,833 --> 00:26:46,033
She came over from Italy
to bring back her father

504
00:26:46,033 --> 00:26:48,733
who had come to America
and become successful.

505
00:26:48,733 --> 00:26:53,500
And somehow, he got killed,
and all the money was stolen,

506
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:57,033
and Maria was left here
as a child of 15,

507
00:26:57,033 --> 00:27:00,133
and she managed to get a job,

508
00:27:00,133 --> 00:27:04,066
and worked real hard
and finally built this wig shop

509
00:27:04,066 --> 00:27:07,066
on 5th Avenue called
Maria's, of course.

510
00:27:13,166 --> 00:27:16,066
Maria was from
a very traditional

511
00:27:16,066 --> 00:27:19,566
Italian churchgoing family,

512
00:27:19,566 --> 00:27:22,100
always went to church on Sunday.

513
00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:25,066
Every weekend we'd
go over to her house,

514
00:27:25,066 --> 00:27:27,266
and she'd cook a big dinner,

515
00:27:27,266 --> 00:27:29,366
and family was
very important to her,

516
00:27:29,366 --> 00:27:32,733
and there'd be three
different types of pasta,

517
00:27:32,733 --> 00:27:35,400
and arancinos and artichokes.

518
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,333
I remember those meals,
they were absolute feasts.

519
00:27:38,333 --> 00:27:42,366
And the entire family came
over and partook of them.

520
00:27:42,366 --> 00:27:45,400
And then one day
she met Tito,

521
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,666
this gentleman who
came into the shop

522
00:27:48,666 --> 00:27:50,466
and was trying on wigs,

523
00:27:50,466 --> 00:27:53,366
and pretending
it was for his sister,

524
00:27:53,366 --> 00:27:56,700
or his niece,
or something like that,

525
00:27:56,700 --> 00:28:01,133
and, um,
she basically outed him

526
00:28:01,133 --> 00:28:03,300
and said, "Oh come on,
I know this is for you!"

527
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:07,300
And he was rather
shocked and...

528
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:10,600
but she did it
in a loving way.

529
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,066
And Tito told me later
that he was so impressed

530
00:28:15,066 --> 00:28:18,566
by her openness and
by her acceptance of him

531
00:28:18,566 --> 00:28:21,300
that, you know,

532
00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:25,133
she was the one
and special person in his life.

533
00:28:25,133 --> 00:28:28,933
Tito was very affable
and energetic.

534
00:28:28,933 --> 00:28:31,566
He was a radio commentator

535
00:28:31,566 --> 00:28:35,966
for the Latin American station
in the United States.

536
00:28:35,966 --> 00:28:39,566
He used to come up
to the country place for us

537
00:28:39,566 --> 00:28:43,100
and he used to dress as
a woman and become Susanna.

538
00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:45,800
And we weren't
supposed to know that,

539
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,100
and, um, so one day

540
00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:52,066
I was at the porch
in the country

541
00:28:52,066 --> 00:28:55,533
and Susanna grabbed me

542
00:28:55,533 --> 00:28:58,266
and sat down
and had a conversation

543
00:28:58,266 --> 00:29:00,600
and revealed himself to me.

544
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,000
And at the end
of the conversation,

545
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,866
I said to him, you know,

546
00:29:04,866 --> 00:29:07,466
"If my grandmother loved you,
then you're okay with me,"

547
00:29:07,466 --> 00:29:11,766
and he was very
touched by that.

548
00:29:11,766 --> 00:29:14,666
And then we found that
they were getting married

549
00:29:14,666 --> 00:29:18,166
and went to the wedding
and it was...

550
00:29:18,166 --> 00:29:20,233
I was very happy for Maria

551
00:29:20,233 --> 00:29:22,533
'cause she seemed
very happy at the time

552
00:29:22,533 --> 00:29:25,400
and I could see
the sparkle in her eyes

553
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,866
and I could see that they both
cared and loved each other.

554
00:29:27,866 --> 00:29:29,600
But on the other hand,

555
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,800
my mom, Yolanda,
Maria's only child,

556
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,566
thought morally it was wrong,
she didn't understand it,

557
00:29:36,566 --> 00:29:39,800
no matter how many times
Tito, Susanna,

558
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,100
tried to explain it to her.

559
00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:44,766
But then again,
she couldn't avoid it

560
00:29:44,766 --> 00:29:46,700
because Maria said, you know,

561
00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:49,166
"This is what's going to happen,
this is what it's gonna be

562
00:29:49,166 --> 00:29:52,366
"and we're gonna create a club

563
00:29:52,366 --> 00:29:56,433
"in the Catskills for a, um...

564
00:29:56,433 --> 00:29:58,800
female impersonator shows."

565
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,233
Which she did.

566
00:30:00,233 --> 00:30:03,033
And, you know,
every Saturday night,

567
00:30:03,033 --> 00:30:05,433
they'd throw
a female impersonator show

568
00:30:05,433 --> 00:30:08,500
and numbers and numbers
of performers would come in

569
00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:10,866
and do different acts,

570
00:30:10,866 --> 00:30:13,400
and it actually was, you know,
quite a success up there.

571
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,366
And every Saturday night,
they'd get, you know,

572
00:30:16,366 --> 00:30:18,733
50, 75 people in the Wigwam,

573
00:30:18,733 --> 00:30:21,233
including the mayor
of the local town

574
00:30:21,233 --> 00:30:23,733
who would actually
come to the show,

575
00:30:23,733 --> 00:30:26,700
which we thought
was hilarious.

576
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:29,366
And, of course, we weren't
allowed to be anywhere

577
00:30:29,366 --> 00:30:31,466
close to that, but what we did

578
00:30:31,466 --> 00:30:33,466
as precocious children
was sneak around

579
00:30:33,466 --> 00:30:37,000
and stand on soapboxes,
and peek in the windows,

580
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,300
and then get found out,

581
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:41,866
and dragged back
to the house and, uh,

582
00:30:41,866 --> 00:30:45,533
ten minutes later we'd be back
to watch the show again,

583
00:30:45,533 --> 00:30:48,933
so she wasn't too happy
about that but, um...

584
00:30:48,933 --> 00:30:51,333
This was a part
of Maria's world,

585
00:30:51,333 --> 00:30:53,866
and it was part of her
husband's world,

586
00:30:53,866 --> 00:30:57,366
so she embraced it
wholeheartedly,

587
00:30:57,366 --> 00:31:00,233
and was very supportive
in any endeavor that

588
00:31:00,233 --> 00:31:02,166
he wanted to get
into with her.

589
00:31:03,733 --> 00:31:05,666
The property was
a beautiful place,

590
00:31:05,666 --> 00:31:08,333
very private, so,

591
00:31:08,333 --> 00:31:11,100
a lot of people could go there
and be who they were

592
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:15,100
and who they are,
so, we would have

593
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:18,633
ten, 12, 15 people coming up
every weekend to stay

594
00:31:18,633 --> 00:31:21,800
at the Bungalow Colony,
which is what it was back then,

595
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,400
and then do a show every week.

596
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:30,400
♪ ♪

597
00:31:39,266 --> 00:31:41,733
I have mixed feelings
about that

598
00:31:41,733 --> 00:31:44,166
because there was,
you know, peer pressure

599
00:31:44,166 --> 00:31:45,766
and there was a
couple of incidents where

600
00:31:45,766 --> 00:31:48,233
some of my local friends
would come over

601
00:31:48,233 --> 00:31:49,833
and say,
"Oh, guess what I saw today?"

602
00:31:49,833 --> 00:31:51,433
I would say, "What?"

603
00:31:51,433 --> 00:31:54,600
"I saw this big, burly guy
in the hardware store

604
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,100
wearing a dress
and a wig and makeup!"

605
00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:58,666
And I said,
"Oh yeah, really?"

606
00:31:58,666 --> 00:32:00,833
In the meantime, you know,
the gentlemen were

607
00:32:00,833 --> 00:32:02,766
staying at our house, so,

608
00:32:02,766 --> 00:32:05,800
I was somewhat
mortified by that.

609
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,133
But I came to
a resolution of that,

610
00:32:08,133 --> 00:32:10,500
that, you know, I wasn't
going to be ashamed,

611
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:12,800
that this was who they were
and who they are

612
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,400
and if that's what
they wanted to do and be,

613
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,133
and it made them happy,
who was I to judge them?

614
00:32:19,133 --> 00:32:23,500
♪ ♪

615
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:25,566
BUS DRIVER:
Okay passengers,
this stop.

616
00:32:25,566 --> 00:32:28,000
Hampton, New York.

617
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,133
♪ ♪

618
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,600
KATHERINE:
Hey!
Hey!

619
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,500
Ah!

620
00:32:49,166 --> 00:32:51,400
Good to see you.

621
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,500
KATHERINE:
Wonderful to see you, too.

622
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:55,600
Let me give you a hug.

623
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,966
Oh, man.

624
00:32:57,966 --> 00:33:00,233
God, it's just
unbelievable.

625
00:33:00,233 --> 00:33:02,233
Did you ever
meet Don Wollheim?

626
00:33:02,233 --> 00:33:04,666
I met Don
Wollheim once.
This is Betsy.

627
00:33:04,666 --> 00:33:06,466
BETSY:
Hi, great to meet you.

628
00:33:06,466 --> 00:33:07,933
Very glad to meet you.

629
00:33:07,933 --> 00:33:09,600
DIANA:
You remember,

630
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,600
probably even
better than I do.

631
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,900
KATHERINE:
You and I met in 1962.

632
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:16,533
That was '62,

633
00:33:16,533 --> 00:33:20,433
so I must have been
24-- 23, 24, maybe 25.

634
00:33:20,433 --> 00:33:22,700
BETSY:
That's the year my
father wrote about.

635
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:25,300
He said it was
absolutely freezing!

636
00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:27,566
DIANA:
Exactly, but the cold
didn't even affect me.

637
00:33:27,566 --> 00:33:29,200
KATHERINE:
What cold?

638
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,033
He said everyone
was sleeping with all

639
00:33:31,033 --> 00:33:33,866
their male clothes and all
their female clothes on,

640
00:33:33,866 --> 00:33:35,733
that's how cold it was.
DIANA: It was very cold!

641
00:33:35,733 --> 00:33:37,300
KATHERINE:
I got as many
blankets as I could find.

642
00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:39,033
Absolutely,
and he said he believed

643
00:33:39,033 --> 00:33:41,700
that that was the greatest
group of transvestites

644
00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:44,733
that had ever gathered
in the history of humanity,

645
00:33:44,733 --> 00:33:47,366
which was absolutely...
There were lot of people,

646
00:33:47,366 --> 00:33:49,533
but I don't think
it was a world record.

647
00:33:49,533 --> 00:33:51,366
My father said
it was wonderful.

648
00:33:51,366 --> 00:33:52,866
It was, I mean
it was certainly,

649
00:33:52,866 --> 00:33:54,633
an incredible
experience for me,

650
00:33:54,633 --> 00:33:56,700
but it was almost an
out-of-body experience.

651
00:33:56,700 --> 00:33:59,166
I mean, I, you know,
it was so...

652
00:33:59,166 --> 00:34:01,133
so powerful.

653
00:34:01,133 --> 00:34:03,133
KATHERINE:
That weekend,
for the first time,

654
00:34:03,133 --> 00:34:05,000
an attempt was being made
to take all these

655
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,633
disparate little groups
of cross-dressers

656
00:34:07,633 --> 00:34:10,966
and form them into
a national sorority.

657
00:34:10,966 --> 00:34:13,633
And that was the work
of Virginia Prince.
DIANA: Right. Yeah.

658
00:34:13,633 --> 00:34:15,500
KATHERINE:
She was a scientist,

659
00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:17,400
she lived on the West Coast.

660
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,600
She was a very
forceful personality.

661
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,200
She was a pain in
the neck sometimes.

662
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,266
And she had the drive,

663
00:34:25,266 --> 00:34:27,833
and she had the
organizational skills

664
00:34:27,833 --> 00:34:31,033
to contact many
of these small groups.

665
00:34:31,033 --> 00:34:33,433
And, of course,
Virginia went on

666
00:34:33,433 --> 00:34:36,333
editing the magazine
"Transvestia."

667
00:34:36,333 --> 00:34:39,233
It was partly
wish fulfilment fiction.

668
00:34:39,233 --> 00:34:41,400
Badly written.

669
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,766
And partly stuff stolen from

670
00:34:43,766 --> 00:34:47,266
scientific magazines
on cross-dressing.

671
00:34:47,266 --> 00:34:49,966
And there was a large
social section.

672
00:34:49,966 --> 00:34:53,633
"Would you like to meet
other people who cross-dress?"

673
00:34:53,633 --> 00:34:55,566
And so people made
their own little

674
00:34:55,566 --> 00:34:57,433
internal networks as well.

675
00:34:57,433 --> 00:34:58,866
Yes, that's how I did, too.
Yeah.

676
00:34:58,866 --> 00:35:02,466
And so that is the reason why

677
00:35:02,466 --> 00:35:06,733
all those people finished up
at that resort.

678
00:35:06,733 --> 00:35:10,133
(leaves rustling)

679
00:35:10,133 --> 00:35:12,900
(birds chirping)

680
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:14,200
You didn't get
more involved

681
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,366
in the Casa Susanna,
did you?

682
00:35:17,366 --> 00:35:20,300
No, no, I didn't.

683
00:35:20,300 --> 00:35:22,766
As I say, I mostly

684
00:35:22,766 --> 00:35:26,033
stayed away
from the culture.

685
00:35:26,033 --> 00:35:28,300
Yeah.

686
00:35:28,300 --> 00:35:31,533
(leaves rustling)

687
00:35:31,533 --> 00:35:35,300
I mean, mostly,
it's not so much staying away,

688
00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:37,133
as not participating.
You know, I mean...

689
00:35:37,133 --> 00:35:39,000
Sure, I understand.

690
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,300
I never adopted people
because they were trans,

691
00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:44,966
Uh-huh.
I adopted people
because I liked them.

692
00:35:44,966 --> 00:35:46,733
Yes, yes.

693
00:35:48,533 --> 00:35:51,000
So, I wanna go look
inside of one of these.

694
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000
I don't remember,
let's see what they look like.

695
00:36:04,733 --> 00:36:07,800
This is the one deluxe,

696
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,933
the one with
the green side.

697
00:36:09,933 --> 00:36:11,966
Yes, indeed.
That's our specialty.

698
00:36:11,966 --> 00:36:13,900
I wonder
if there were a hundred...

699
00:36:13,900 --> 00:36:16,400
I mean putting 100 people
in there, that's a pretty...

700
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,033
Well, for an audience
you can do it because

701
00:36:18,033 --> 00:36:20,566
you've got ten rows of ten,
that's easy,

702
00:36:20,566 --> 00:36:22,733
but to accommodate
them overnight,

703
00:36:22,733 --> 00:36:25,433
that's more
of a difference.

704
00:36:27,333 --> 00:36:29,633
Touch wood.

705
00:36:34,266 --> 00:36:36,266
You bet.

706
00:36:36,266 --> 00:36:37,900
You bet, you know,

707
00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:39,933
two women standing here
leaning up against the wall,

708
00:36:39,933 --> 00:36:42,433
you never know what kind
of trouble we can get into.

709
00:36:42,433 --> 00:36:44,400
Well, we can try...

710
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,166
(laughing)

711
00:36:48,166 --> 00:36:51,766
♪ Completely round
is the perfect pearl ♪

712
00:36:51,766 --> 00:36:54,266
I'll beat you with my stick
if you sing that awful song.

713
00:36:54,266 --> 00:36:57,533
(laughter)

714
00:36:58,933 --> 00:37:01,066
I sang it
quite well, I think.

715
00:37:01,066 --> 00:37:03,766
Oh, you sang it well,
but the lyrics are silly.

716
00:37:03,766 --> 00:37:06,333
They're very silly,
they're supposed to be silly.

717
00:37:06,333 --> 00:37:08,066
(laughing)

718
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,466
DIANA:
I don't even know how
I got invited to Casa Susanna.

719
00:37:13,466 --> 00:37:15,533
I desperately, of course,

720
00:37:15,533 --> 00:37:17,866
wanted to go to this
Halloween party,

721
00:37:17,866 --> 00:37:21,966
and I had no idea how
I would ever pull it off.

722
00:37:21,966 --> 00:37:25,800
But I sort of got
Julie to agree that it was,

723
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,933
it would be a good...

724
00:37:27,933 --> 00:37:30,100
you know, it would be okay
for me to do that,

725
00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:32,966
to maybe find some stuff
out about myself.

726
00:37:34,366 --> 00:37:36,000
So, off I went,

727
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,100
and it was an incredibly
dangerous adventure.

728
00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:41,300
With a big suitcase,
I stood on the highway,

729
00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:43,333
and I hitchhiked from
Valparaiso, Indiana,

730
00:37:43,333 --> 00:37:46,133
to Casa Susanna.

731
00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:52,533
The first thing
that happened was,

732
00:37:52,533 --> 00:37:54,166
I think we went
into the main house

733
00:37:54,166 --> 00:37:57,500
and there was somebody there
who would set my hair.

734
00:37:57,500 --> 00:38:01,700
Now, I never had
my hair curled, ever.

735
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:05,066
And it was just the most
exciting experience,

736
00:38:05,066 --> 00:38:07,033
it was unbelievable to me.
(chuckles)

737
00:38:07,033 --> 00:38:09,400
It was... it's so
unbelievable to me what

738
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,833
those small pleasures, you know,
how thrilling they were.

739
00:38:13,833 --> 00:38:16,733
Um... I mean, it all seems

740
00:38:16,733 --> 00:38:19,900
kind of silly and funny.

741
00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:22,700
And it is, I mean, even then,

742
00:38:22,700 --> 00:38:24,500
it was done with
a light heart.

743
00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:27,466
But it was also very

744
00:38:27,466 --> 00:38:30,733
piquant, very poignant.

745
00:38:30,733 --> 00:38:33,866
And one of the
cross-dressers, Gloria,

746
00:38:33,866 --> 00:38:36,233
gave me this
wonderful pair of shoes

747
00:38:36,233 --> 00:38:37,733
that had these high heels

748
00:38:37,733 --> 00:38:40,333
that were just spectacular,
and they fit.

749
00:38:40,333 --> 00:38:42,766
And I was pretty successful.

750
00:38:42,766 --> 00:38:44,900
So, they were all kind
of "oohing" and "ahhing"

751
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:46,866
and that was, you know,
great support.

752
00:38:46,866 --> 00:38:49,933
Made me feel really
authentic, you know,

753
00:38:49,933 --> 00:38:53,033
it made me feel like,
wow, this is, you know,

754
00:38:53,033 --> 00:38:55,200
I could really be like this.

755
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,633
I remember that there
were a lot of people,

756
00:38:58,633 --> 00:39:01,800
but individuals
are not so clear to me.

757
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,966
And I don't think it's so
much that I didn't

758
00:39:03,966 --> 00:39:06,400
interact with the people
in fun ways,

759
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,966
but I was so out of myself,
it was just so incredible

760
00:39:10,966 --> 00:39:13,633
that the... that
that remembrance

761
00:39:13,633 --> 00:39:16,133
is not a part of
what it felt like.

762
00:39:16,133 --> 00:39:18,633
It's more really a feeling,
this incredible feeling

763
00:39:18,633 --> 00:39:23,700
of exaltation that was, uh,
sublime.

764
00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:25,233
It was...

765
00:39:25,233 --> 00:39:27,133
I mean, it was unreal,
obviously.

766
00:39:27,133 --> 00:39:29,466
I mean, it was something that...
it's just that

767
00:39:29,466 --> 00:39:35,333
something I would never have
hoped could happen.

768
00:39:35,333 --> 00:39:36,633
KATHERINE:
(chuckles)

769
00:39:36,633 --> 00:39:38,066
Oh, I remember that night!

770
00:39:38,066 --> 00:39:40,633
I did "The Dance
of the Little Swans."

771
00:39:40,633 --> 00:39:44,333
I had done a bit of training
as a classical ballerina,

772
00:39:44,333 --> 00:39:47,566
so yes, I could dance
on toe for 20 seconds.

773
00:39:47,566 --> 00:39:48,933
(chuckles)

774
00:39:48,933 --> 00:39:51,933
Some of the cross-dressers
were excellent,

775
00:39:51,933 --> 00:39:54,433
some of them were
very well done,

776
00:39:54,433 --> 00:39:57,800
well made-up, well dressed,
good taste.

777
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,800
But on the other hand,
of course, there were some

778
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,866
who looked like Donald Duck
in a drunken orgy

779
00:40:02,866 --> 00:40:04,800
or something like this.

780
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,700
But everyone wanted
to just join in

781
00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:10,266
and be another woman
amongst women.

782
00:40:10,266 --> 00:40:13,500
GREGORY:
The style at Casa Susanna wasn't

783
00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:17,333
vampy or very sexy,
they were dressing up

784
00:40:17,333 --> 00:40:19,866
as middle-class women

785
00:40:19,866 --> 00:40:21,800
that would be putting on their

786
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,033
Sunday best, and their finery.

787
00:40:24,033 --> 00:40:26,133
And it wasn't like
they wanted to be

788
00:40:26,133 --> 00:40:28,333
a Betty Page
or something like that,

789
00:40:28,333 --> 00:40:31,600
they wanted to be
an accepted person

790
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,633
of the female persuasion
in society.

791
00:40:35,633 --> 00:40:40,866
And the transformation
for most of them wasn't

792
00:40:40,866 --> 00:40:42,833
an easy thing to accomplish.

793
00:40:42,833 --> 00:40:45,533
It took hours
to get to the point

794
00:40:45,533 --> 00:40:49,666
where they were
satisfied with their look.

795
00:40:49,666 --> 00:40:55,066
♪ ♪

796
00:40:55,066 --> 00:40:58,133
To become Susanna took hours.

797
00:40:58,133 --> 00:41:03,200
I mean,
Tito was a perfectionist.

798
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,966
When he was becoming Susanna,
I mean, I saw him

799
00:41:06,966 --> 00:41:10,533
tweeze every hair
on his face, which was

800
00:41:10,533 --> 00:41:12,866
an incredibly long process.

801
00:41:12,866 --> 00:41:15,366
And I asked him,
you know, I mean...

802
00:41:16,866 --> 00:41:18,733
"It takes so long
for you to transform."

803
00:41:18,733 --> 00:41:21,400
And his answer was,
"Well, it's worth it."

804
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,466
♪ ♪

805
00:41:24,466 --> 00:41:29,033
She loved to play
the starring role and aside

806
00:41:29,033 --> 00:41:32,333
from the cross-dressing shows
that we did at the Wigwam

807
00:41:32,333 --> 00:41:37,200
and then when she was the
Grand Dame at Casa Susanna,

808
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:42,200
loved to be out front
and a performer and, um...

809
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,866
she just had this
incredible personality

810
00:41:46,866 --> 00:41:49,500
that just spilt over everything.

811
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:52,866
♪ ♪

812
00:41:52,866 --> 00:41:57,033
Susanna is owed the
respect that is due her.

813
00:41:57,033 --> 00:42:00,266
She told me a story once that
she was growing up in Chile,

814
00:42:00,266 --> 00:42:04,066
where she was from,
and that she always knew

815
00:42:04,066 --> 00:42:07,333
that she wanted to be a woman,
so, this was not something

816
00:42:07,333 --> 00:42:09,766
that was a fad or a fixture.

817
00:42:12,266 --> 00:42:15,133
And Tito felt
actually blessed

818
00:42:15,133 --> 00:42:17,266
that he didn't have
to hide it from Maria,

819
00:42:17,266 --> 00:42:21,100
that she was accepting of it
and made his life a joy,

820
00:42:21,100 --> 00:42:24,400
rather than constant paranoia
of who's going to find out,

821
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,566
am I going to lose my job,
am I going to lose my family,

822
00:42:27,566 --> 00:42:31,266
which was what
happened back then.

823
00:42:31,266 --> 00:42:36,300
♪ ♪

824
00:42:43,733 --> 00:42:45,100
(exhales)

825
00:42:47,566 --> 00:42:50,100
These have seen better days.

826
00:42:52,266 --> 00:42:54,300
NEWSREEL NARRATOR:
The big cities attract
homosexuals

827
00:42:54,300 --> 00:42:56,233
and the liberal law
has made here

828
00:42:56,233 --> 00:42:58,100
the biggest magnet
in the nation.

829
00:42:58,100 --> 00:43:01,300
The city can offer anonymity
and permissiveness.

830
00:43:01,300 --> 00:43:03,466
The city's downtown
Tenderloin district

831
00:43:03,466 --> 00:43:05,966
is the home ground of the
always visible segment

832
00:43:05,966 --> 00:43:08,033
of the city's homosexuals
and transvestites.

833
00:43:08,033 --> 00:43:11,333
The drag queens are here
at Turk and Taylor.

834
00:43:11,333 --> 00:43:14,233
So frequent were the fights
between screaming queens

835
00:43:14,233 --> 00:43:16,133
in the 2:00 to 3:00 a.m. period,

836
00:43:16,133 --> 00:43:18,000
that police had had enough,

837
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,566
and asked an all-night cafeteria
to close by midnight.

838
00:43:21,566 --> 00:43:26,200
♪ ♪

839
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:29,566
KATHERINE:
One thing you have to remember

840
00:43:29,566 --> 00:43:32,266
is that we are
talking about the 1960s,

841
00:43:32,266 --> 00:43:35,500
when the cross-dressers were
in some places illegal,

842
00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:39,833
and certainly, in many places,
looked down upon

843
00:43:39,833 --> 00:43:42,933
and bullied and had a bad time.

844
00:43:42,933 --> 00:43:46,633
It was a very
hard time back then

845
00:43:46,633 --> 00:43:48,633
to know who to trust,

846
00:43:48,633 --> 00:43:51,166
and where do you get
your information from.

847
00:43:53,166 --> 00:43:55,833
One of the reasons why
there are relatively

848
00:43:55,833 --> 00:44:00,233
few photographs taken
at the Chevalier d'Éon resort

849
00:44:00,233 --> 00:44:05,400
and at the, at the Casa Susanna,

850
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,400
people didn't like to have...

851
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,566
they didn't like
to lose control

852
00:44:11,566 --> 00:44:14,633
of the photographs
that were taken of them.

853
00:44:14,633 --> 00:44:17,300
You'd be very unlikely to have
someone come up and say,

854
00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:20,033
"Would you take a photograph
of me on your camera?"

855
00:44:20,033 --> 00:44:23,066
Because they would know
then that negative,

856
00:44:23,066 --> 00:44:25,400
that camera,
would go away somewhere.

857
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,366
That person could do
anything with those photos,

858
00:44:28,366 --> 00:44:30,033
and...

859
00:44:30,033 --> 00:44:32,100
we were all a little
bit paranoid about

860
00:44:32,100 --> 00:44:35,166
having our reputations
destroyed,

861
00:44:35,166 --> 00:44:39,066
or having blackmail
exercised on us.

862
00:44:39,066 --> 00:44:43,066
♪ ♪

863
00:44:43,066 --> 00:44:45,966
And because of the prejudice

864
00:44:45,966 --> 00:44:48,633
against gay people,

865
00:44:48,633 --> 00:44:51,200
they wanted to
differentiate themselves.

866
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,900
So, the resort was designed
for cross-dressing men

867
00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:58,600
who were exclusively
heterosexual.

868
00:45:00,266 --> 00:45:04,200
They wanted their wives
to be part of the organization.

869
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,666
♪ ♪

870
00:45:14,266 --> 00:45:17,566
Well, they label themselves
as cross-dressers.

871
00:45:17,566 --> 00:45:21,833
They didn't label themselves
as gay or transsexual.

872
00:45:21,833 --> 00:45:24,000
Most of them claimed

873
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,600
that they were
totally heterosexual.

874
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,933
The times were middle
'50s through '60s,

875
00:45:29,933 --> 00:45:32,766
which reigned of McCarthyism,

876
00:45:32,766 --> 00:45:35,466
of anti-communist sentiment.

877
00:45:35,466 --> 00:45:37,933
You know, if someone
was perceived as

878
00:45:37,933 --> 00:45:39,800
being gay was, you know,

879
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,100
just... it was a crime.

880
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:45,300
Let's face it, you could
go to jail for that.

881
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:48,033
In that context,
not only do you come out

882
00:45:48,033 --> 00:45:49,966
and, you know,
be a cross-dresser,

883
00:45:49,966 --> 00:45:51,966
but then you're gay
on top of that,

884
00:45:51,966 --> 00:45:53,966
so that's like strike two.

885
00:45:53,966 --> 00:45:56,400
You know, so you're getting,
you know,

886
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,333
a double whammy
from the, um...

887
00:46:00,333 --> 00:46:02,533
you know,
from the religious front,

888
00:46:02,533 --> 00:46:07,066
from the moral
majority back then,

889
00:46:07,066 --> 00:46:10,033
and that was a moral
majority back then.

890
00:46:10,033 --> 00:46:12,800
I have approached
many numerous firms

891
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,466
asking them for any kind
of work

892
00:46:14,466 --> 00:46:17,866
that they had to offer over
a period of eight months.

893
00:46:17,866 --> 00:46:19,966
The same response,

894
00:46:19,966 --> 00:46:22,166
"We can't hire anybody
of your caliber.

895
00:46:22,166 --> 00:46:24,866
We don't want any of your
people working for us."

896
00:46:24,866 --> 00:46:26,800
So what else was
I supposed to do

897
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,333
when you get damn hungry?

898
00:46:28,333 --> 00:46:30,833
I'm not up here tonight
for criticism,

899
00:46:30,833 --> 00:46:32,833
I'm up here for help.

900
00:46:32,833 --> 00:46:34,866
Now I know about, roughly,

901
00:46:34,866 --> 00:46:38,033
about 20 of us girls
who are very well qualified

902
00:46:38,033 --> 00:46:41,200
to do work-- legitimate work.

903
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,033
We don't want to hustle,
we hate hustling.

904
00:46:45,033 --> 00:46:48,600
I do, I hate it very bitterly.

905
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,166
But when I get starving
for two and three days

906
00:46:51,166 --> 00:46:53,500
and somebody comes along...

907
00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:55,866
I'm going to take
a meal off of them

908
00:46:55,866 --> 00:46:57,233
if it's the only
means available.

909
00:46:57,233 --> 00:46:59,333
Not only, um,

910
00:46:59,333 --> 00:47:01,633
did you have
two strikes on you,

911
00:47:01,633 --> 00:47:04,233
but you were then
a total degenerate.

912
00:47:04,233 --> 00:47:06,800
So, I think they wanted
to skirt that issue

913
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,600
in order to, again,
get a certain amount

914
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,933
of acceptability
or tolerance,

915
00:47:12,933 --> 00:47:16,600
let's use that word instead
of acceptability, tolerance.

916
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,133
Maria wanted to become
the landing pad, so to speak,

917
00:47:21,133 --> 00:47:24,766
and she walked
a very fine line

918
00:47:24,766 --> 00:47:28,400
because these people
were major film directors,

919
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:33,466
they were attorneys,
they were tugboat captains,

920
00:47:33,466 --> 00:47:35,633
they were airplane pilots,
there was

921
00:47:35,633 --> 00:47:38,966
all sorts of professions

922
00:47:38,966 --> 00:47:42,766
that people reached, you know,
the pinnacle of their careers

923
00:47:42,766 --> 00:47:46,266
where they were making good
money, had great jobs.

924
00:47:47,866 --> 00:47:52,466
It must have been an extremely
strong desire to do this.

925
00:47:52,466 --> 00:47:55,166
Because they were rolling
the dice every time

926
00:47:55,166 --> 00:47:58,233
that they became
their alter ego.

927
00:47:58,233 --> 00:48:03,500
And then if found out, the
downside of it was horrendous.

928
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:08,300
you know, I mean, who'd want
to be brought into jail,

929
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:10,433
dressed as a woman
in your community?

930
00:48:10,433 --> 00:48:12,500
I mean, it would have been
front page

931
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:14,833
anywhere in the United States.

932
00:48:14,833 --> 00:48:20,466
So, um, they risked a lot for
doing what they wanted to do.

933
00:48:21,900 --> 00:48:25,700
KATHERINE:
That is Irene, who was an
aeronautical engineer.

934
00:48:25,700 --> 00:48:27,666
She also was one who swore

935
00:48:27,666 --> 00:48:30,500
that she would never go anywhere
near a sex change.

936
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:33,666
"Certainly not, what an idea!
Disgusting!

937
00:48:33,666 --> 00:48:38,766
I am a cross-dresser and I will
remain a cross-dresser!"

938
00:48:38,766 --> 00:48:41,033
And a couple of years
after I returned to Australia,

939
00:48:41,033 --> 00:48:43,600
I had a letter saying:
"Sit down before you read this.

940
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,300
I've just had the operation."

941
00:48:46,300 --> 00:48:50,866
Felicity was an airline pilot
with many years' experience.

942
00:48:50,866 --> 00:48:53,400
She had intended to be
the first person

943
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,133
to fly solo
across the Atlantic.
Wow.

944
00:48:56,133 --> 00:48:57,833
But Lindbergh beat her to it.
Yeah.

945
00:48:58,966 --> 00:49:00,533
KATHERINE:
Gale.

946
00:49:00,533 --> 00:49:02,066
BETSY:
I miss him so much.

947
00:49:02,066 --> 00:49:04,066
KATHERINE:
Gale was the first person I met

948
00:49:04,066 --> 00:49:09,533
who used the technique of
gluing elastic to the skin,

949
00:49:09,533 --> 00:49:12,100
and then pulling it back
to give a false

950
00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:14,866
and temporary safe facelift.
Yeah.

951
00:49:14,866 --> 00:49:18,800
I learnt many things from Gale,
and one of the first was

952
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,233
that there was someone else in
the world like me,

953
00:49:21,233 --> 00:49:22,933
which was very important
to know.

954
00:49:24,066 --> 00:49:25,400
That's the Downtown group.

955
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:26,700
Downtown branch!

956
00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:29,333
Donna is the only one
I recognized.

957
00:49:29,333 --> 00:49:31,066
Donna, I thought,
was quite beautiful.

958
00:49:31,066 --> 00:49:32,400
And elegant, too.

959
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,766
She wasn't just beautiful,
she was elegant.

960
00:49:34,766 --> 00:49:36,566
Yeah.
She could definitely pass.

961
00:49:38,733 --> 00:49:41,766
That's Donna in male mode.
God.

962
00:49:41,766 --> 00:49:46,433
I have never seen Don--
Donna as Don, ever.

963
00:49:46,433 --> 00:49:48,066
Had she transitioned?

964
00:49:48,066 --> 00:49:49,666
She had transitioned,

965
00:49:49,666 --> 00:49:51,333
and she had detransitioned.

966
00:49:51,333 --> 00:49:53,400
Oh, why do you think?

967
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,566
I don't know, maybe
she saw herself deteriorating.

968
00:49:56,566 --> 00:49:58,633
Maybe she just thought
she was no longer

969
00:49:58,633 --> 00:50:00,700
the person she could
have been, sadly,

970
00:50:00,700 --> 00:50:03,600
she decided just to walk back
down that path

971
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,066
she just climbed her way up.

972
00:50:07,066 --> 00:50:09,400
It's a fabulous dress!

973
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,433
Gloria was large,
she was about six foot four.

974
00:50:12,433 --> 00:50:15,100
And she had a stroke,

975
00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:17,566
so she was paralyzed
on one side.

976
00:50:17,566 --> 00:50:21,733
But she did her best
with her accumulated wealth

977
00:50:21,733 --> 00:50:24,866
to help other
transgendered people.

978
00:50:24,866 --> 00:50:26,533
I read about that, yeah.

979
00:50:26,533 --> 00:50:29,466
She paid for their operations,
and she looked after them for...

980
00:50:29,466 --> 00:50:32,933
until they felt free
to go out into society.

981
00:50:32,933 --> 00:50:36,566
When she died, the minister who
conducted the ceremony

982
00:50:36,566 --> 00:50:40,600
had a problem because they had
invited a lot of people.

983
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,033
Some of whom knew Rex,
and some of whom knew Gloria.

984
00:50:44,033 --> 00:50:47,033
And so they put the Gloria
people on one side of the church

985
00:50:47,033 --> 00:50:48,866
and the Rex people on the other.

986
00:50:48,866 --> 00:50:50,700
And the minister had
to stumble his way

987
00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:54,633
through the eulogy, saying,
"This, ah, um, person,

988
00:50:54,633 --> 00:50:57,733
"was a fine person,
and we should all,

989
00:50:57,733 --> 00:51:00,933
we should all honor this,
um, person."

990
00:51:00,933 --> 00:51:02,433
(laughter)

991
00:51:02,433 --> 00:51:04,066
Oh, that's me.

992
00:51:04,066 --> 00:51:05,400
Is that you?

993
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,033
That's me, and that's
the wig that

994
00:51:07,033 --> 00:51:09,866
Maria put together for me.
Mm-hmm.

995
00:51:09,866 --> 00:51:11,800
I love that photo!

996
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,066
Swimming pool--
swimming costume and garter!

997
00:51:15,066 --> 00:51:16,266
Great legs, though.

998
00:51:16,266 --> 00:51:19,533
Oh, great legs, of course,
I admit that.

999
00:51:19,533 --> 00:51:21,666
Honesty forces me to admit that!
(chuckles)

1000
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:24,400
Oh dear-- bad!

1001
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,366
(Betsy chuckles)

1002
00:51:26,366 --> 00:51:29,033
That was taken in my
family home in Sydney.

1003
00:51:29,033 --> 00:51:31,800
That was what I used to do,
for myself

1004
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,800
with my little homemade
self-timer on the camera.

1005
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,133
Yeah.

1006
00:51:36,133 --> 00:51:38,766
And I would stand in the corner
and take photographs,

1007
00:51:38,766 --> 00:51:40,466
and all the doors
were deadlocked.

1008
00:51:40,466 --> 00:51:42,633
BETSY:
I love the photos with you,

1009
00:51:42,633 --> 00:51:44,566
with your natural hair.

1010
00:51:44,566 --> 00:51:48,200
You look more like yourself,
and I like that.

1011
00:51:50,466 --> 00:51:52,200
I love that photo,
I love that photo!

1012
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:53,533
(laughs)

1013
00:51:53,533 --> 00:51:55,233
Don't laugh,
I love that photo!

1014
00:51:55,233 --> 00:51:56,433
But that's the sheep dog!

1015
00:51:56,433 --> 00:51:58,800
I know but it,
it's very,

1016
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,000
the way it covers one of your
eyes is very fetching.

1017
00:52:04,633 --> 00:52:06,566
I like it.
Veronica Lake resuscitated!

1018
00:52:06,566 --> 00:52:09,266
I love that photo,
and I love this one, too.

1019
00:52:09,266 --> 00:52:11,966
Yeah, that's another one...
So young!

1020
00:52:11,966 --> 00:52:13,400
Taken from my home.

1021
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,133
How old were you there?

1022
00:52:15,133 --> 00:52:18,033
Well, I would have been
at university,

1023
00:52:18,033 --> 00:52:19,733
so somewhere between
16 and 20.

1024
00:52:19,733 --> 00:52:20,933
So young.

1025
00:52:20,933 --> 00:52:23,066
That is my father.

1026
00:52:23,066 --> 00:52:26,833
That's in my mother's house.
Is it?

1027
00:52:26,833 --> 00:52:29,866
There he is again.

1028
00:52:29,866 --> 00:52:33,666
There's more of him around
and dressed than I knew of.

1029
00:52:33,666 --> 00:52:38,200
Oh yes, there are many,
many photos of him in dresses.

1030
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,366
I'm learning things
about your father every minute.

1031
00:52:41,366 --> 00:52:43,166
Yes, and there's my dad again.

1032
00:52:43,166 --> 00:52:45,366
That's him again.
(chuckles)

1033
00:52:47,833 --> 00:52:50,866
That's him again, with my mom.
With some short woman.

1034
00:52:50,866 --> 00:52:52,700
I love that!

1035
00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:54,666
She always has
a look of adoration

1036
00:52:54,666 --> 00:52:56,866
whenever she looks at him,
you know?

1037
00:52:56,866 --> 00:53:00,033
So, you didn't really see
him dressed much?

1038
00:53:00,033 --> 00:53:02,533
No, only once ever,
I think.
Well, he's...

1039
00:53:02,533 --> 00:53:05,166
Oh my God, there's many,
many photos of him.

1040
00:53:05,166 --> 00:53:06,600
There he is again.

1041
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,466
I'm certainly surprised because

1042
00:53:09,466 --> 00:53:11,100
I had always been
under the impression

1043
00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:14,766
that he suppressed it as,
as much as possible,

1044
00:53:14,766 --> 00:53:18,100
that it was all going on in
his head, but not in real life.

1045
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:19,466
I think that was true

1046
00:53:19,466 --> 00:53:21,866
for a few years and then it
just popped out!

1047
00:53:21,866 --> 00:53:23,166
Yeah.

1048
00:53:23,166 --> 00:53:25,500
Oh, like,
he has good legs too.

1049
00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:27,133
Yeah.
I don't know where

1050
00:53:27,133 --> 00:53:28,833
these clothing were,
because they

1051
00:53:28,833 --> 00:53:30,233
certainly weren't
in our house.

1052
00:53:30,233 --> 00:53:32,600
My mother always said that

1053
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,566
my father was
a pure clothing fetishist.

1054
00:53:35,566 --> 00:53:37,666
But seeing all these photos,

1055
00:53:37,666 --> 00:53:41,933
I can't help but wonder,
was there more involved?

1056
00:53:41,933 --> 00:53:46,033
Do you-- what do you think?
What is your take on this?

1057
00:53:46,033 --> 00:53:50,266
My take on this is that no one
knows, no one will ever know

1058
00:53:50,266 --> 00:53:55,200
what goes on in some of the
depths of someone's mind.

1059
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,933
Who knows? The shadow know,
only the shadow know.

1060
00:53:57,933 --> 00:53:59,766
Yes, yes,
only the shadow knows.

1061
00:53:59,766 --> 00:54:02,300
Who is that?

1062
00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:04,766
I don't know.
Quite attractive, though.

1063
00:54:04,766 --> 00:54:06,366
Yeah.

1064
00:54:08,133 --> 00:54:09,133
Is this a...?

1065
00:54:09,133 --> 00:54:12,000
Where... is that me?

1066
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,466
Is that really me?

1067
00:54:14,466 --> 00:54:15,833
Are you sure?

1068
00:54:15,833 --> 00:54:18,066
Somebody said so, huh?

1069
00:54:19,333 --> 00:54:21,666
Is that really me?

1070
00:54:22,866 --> 00:54:26,933
Where would that have been?

1071
00:54:26,933 --> 00:54:31,533
(laughs)

1072
00:54:31,533 --> 00:54:34,300
Oh God, I can't stand it!

1073
00:54:34,300 --> 00:54:38,300
This is unbelievable,
I don't believe that's me.

1074
00:54:38,300 --> 00:54:39,500
Is that really me?

1075
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:41,966
Oh, wait a minute.

1076
00:54:41,966 --> 00:54:45,700
Diana D, that's not me,
this is not me.

1077
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,300
That's not me.

1078
00:54:49,300 --> 00:54:51,433
That's not me.

1079
00:54:51,433 --> 00:54:53,700
 
These are not me.

1080
00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:56,033
That could be me.

1081
00:54:56,033 --> 00:54:58,800
This is kind of an embarrassing
picture,

1082
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,600
but it says my name right on
the back, so it must be me.

1083
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,400
This is me!

1084
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,400
These are definitely me.

1085
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,366
Those three are definitely me.

1086
00:55:09,366 --> 00:55:13,533
My hair had grown quite
long by that time.

1087
00:55:13,533 --> 00:55:16,700
This is right around
when I got the surgery.

1088
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:19,200
(sniffs)
And, um...

1089
00:55:22,066 --> 00:55:26,733
I was, I was feeling my oats.

1090
00:55:26,733 --> 00:55:29,533
I was pretty happy here.

1091
00:55:29,533 --> 00:55:31,433
Very, very happy.

1092
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,166
Coming here made me realize

1093
00:55:36,166 --> 00:55:38,900
that was really how
I needed to be.

1094
00:55:38,900 --> 00:55:40,866
And I had to face up to that.

1095
00:55:40,866 --> 00:55:45,000
This was so powerful for me,
and so important,

1096
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,933
that I had to figure out a way

1097
00:55:48,933 --> 00:55:54,433
to, um, allow it to... bloom.

1098
00:55:54,433 --> 00:55:57,933
So, after this Halloween party,

1099
00:55:57,933 --> 00:56:00,333
we went to Gale's place
in the city.

1100
00:56:00,333 --> 00:56:04,533
So, I stayed there for a couple
days, always as Diana,

1101
00:56:04,533 --> 00:56:06,466
I was Diana the whole time.

1102
00:56:06,466 --> 00:56:09,100
And I got this call from Julie.

1103
00:56:09,100 --> 00:56:13,000
And the sad part was
that she had had a miscarriage.

1104
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,766
That was like a real, uh...

1105
00:56:16,766 --> 00:56:19,333
kick in the head.

1106
00:56:19,333 --> 00:56:21,000
Because, you know, the kind of,

1107
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,066
almost the worst thing
that you can imagine happening,

1108
00:56:23,066 --> 00:56:26,433
when you're in the middle
of this blissful pleasure,

1109
00:56:26,433 --> 00:56:28,966
and your, and your beloved
is having a miscarriage,

1110
00:56:28,966 --> 00:56:32,400
there's just something kind
of very dissonant about that,

1111
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,366
and very unhappy.

1112
00:56:39,100 --> 00:56:42,400
KATHERINE:
When I went back to
Australia after my degree,

1113
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,200
I was determined to marry.

1114
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:46,800
I was determined to give up
cross-dressing,

1115
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,066
and I thought it would be
almost automatic.

1116
00:56:49,066 --> 00:56:50,933
A great many cross-dressers
think,

1117
00:56:50,933 --> 00:56:53,300
"Oh, once I get married,
it'll all go away.

1118
00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:56,466
"I won't need
this imaginary woman

1119
00:56:56,466 --> 00:57:00,166
that inhabits half of my body
and most of my mind."

1120
00:57:00,166 --> 00:57:03,366
But it didn't work out that way.

1121
00:57:03,366 --> 00:57:07,333
I still had the urges to dress
even when I was engaged,

1122
00:57:07,333 --> 00:57:10,466
and as the marriage drew
closer and closer.

1123
00:57:10,466 --> 00:57:13,533
And finally, I had decided
I really, in fairness,

1124
00:57:13,533 --> 00:57:18,133
had to tell her about myself
before we got married.

1125
00:57:18,133 --> 00:57:21,700
And at that point, her father
was killed in a road accident,

1126
00:57:21,700 --> 00:57:23,300
so I couldn't tell her.

1127
00:57:23,300 --> 00:57:25,966
I couldn't bring two tragedies
into her life

1128
00:57:25,966 --> 00:57:28,200
so close together.

1129
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,033
So I determined instead
to give up

1130
00:57:31,033 --> 00:57:35,200
anything to do with
cross-dressing for a full year.

1131
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,933
And maybe I could give
it up completely then.

1132
00:57:38,933 --> 00:57:42,200
And at least I wouldn't have
committed myself to lie

1133
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:47,700
if I would be able to either
renew my vow of masculinity,

1134
00:57:47,700 --> 00:57:52,066
or else I would give way

1135
00:57:52,066 --> 00:57:55,733
and go forward
towards being feminine.

1136
00:57:55,733 --> 00:57:59,366
So, one year after
we're married,

1137
00:57:59,366 --> 00:58:02,033
I told my wife about myself,

1138
00:58:02,033 --> 00:58:06,033
and she was, quite naturally,
very upset.

1139
00:58:06,033 --> 00:58:09,200
But in a few days' time,
she came back to me and said

1140
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,433
that we would try
and make it work

1141
00:58:12,433 --> 00:58:16,100
because that's
what marriage was about.

1142
00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:20,800
And we did make it work through
three children and 25 years.

1143
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:27,700
BETSY:
In the early '60s, my father's
obsession was getting worse.

1144
00:58:27,700 --> 00:58:30,166
So he flew out to the
West Coast to meet Virginia.

1145
00:58:30,166 --> 00:58:35,733
He wanted somebody to talk to
about this very secret subject

1146
00:58:35,733 --> 00:58:38,000
completely undercover.

1147
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:42,666
And so Virginia suggested
Susanna and Gale.

1148
00:58:42,666 --> 00:58:48,266
Gale and Susanna
both had, um,

1149
00:58:48,266 --> 00:58:50,400
meeting places,

1150
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:55,400
for men of this nature,
of this ilk.

1151
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,633
Gale was in the Village,
so she's the "Downtown Group."

1152
00:58:59,633 --> 00:59:03,566
And Susanna was in Midtown,
so she was the "Midtown Group."

1153
00:59:03,566 --> 00:59:07,700
So my father wrote a letter
to Susanna and Gale.

1154
00:59:07,700 --> 00:59:12,400
Gale answered within a week,
and they both just hit it off.

1155
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,233
He would say he was going
book hunting on Saturday.

1156
00:59:16,233 --> 00:59:19,133
But I really think a lot of
those times

1157
00:59:19,133 --> 00:59:21,500
he didn't come back with books.

1158
00:59:21,500 --> 00:59:24,333
He came back occasionally
with books, but not usually.

1159
00:59:24,333 --> 00:59:29,000
And I think he went to Gale's
house on 11th Street.

1160
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,466
But he knew he would
have to tell my mother.

1161
00:59:32,466 --> 00:59:35,500
And he asked advice
from Virginia,

1162
00:59:35,500 --> 00:59:38,000
And Virginia said,
"Come at it slowly."

1163
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,633
And so, he did.
He, you know, started to wear

1164
00:59:41,633 --> 00:59:44,900
nylon tricot and he eventually

1165
00:59:44,900 --> 00:59:48,300
went nightgown shopping
with my mother.

1166
00:59:48,300 --> 00:59:52,766
When I was 12, it was 1964.

1167
00:59:52,766 --> 00:59:55,166
So, I think
that was about the time

1168
00:59:55,166 --> 01:00:00,766
when he might have
opened the whole door to her.

1169
01:00:00,766 --> 01:00:02,466
'Cause I think she felt

1170
01:00:02,466 --> 01:00:04,566
it was just something between
them originally.

1171
01:00:04,566 --> 01:00:08,000
But when she discovered
the network

1172
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:09,966
and she realized it
wasn't gonna stop,

1173
01:00:09,966 --> 01:00:12,700
it wasn't a phase,

1174
01:00:12,700 --> 01:00:15,033
there was some watershed
moment from my mother.

1175
01:00:15,033 --> 01:00:17,700
♪ ♪

1176
01:00:23,100 --> 01:00:25,300
DIANA:
Julie and I,
we loved one another.

1177
01:00:25,300 --> 01:00:27,566
And the love was beyond
all the other

1178
01:00:27,566 --> 01:00:30,400
things about ourselves.

1179
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,400
But we were innocent
in some ways

1180
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:36,833
about life and about how people
are and can be.

1181
01:00:36,833 --> 01:00:39,366
So we thought that New York
would be a place

1182
01:00:39,366 --> 01:00:41,000
where I could learn

1183
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,733
how I really was.

1184
01:00:43,733 --> 01:00:47,033
And it wasn't so much that
it would all be healed,

1185
01:00:47,033 --> 01:00:50,266
but if there were any place
where it could be healed,

1186
01:00:50,266 --> 01:00:53,666
it would be someplace
like New York.

1187
01:00:53,666 --> 01:00:57,300
Her hope was that it would be,

1188
01:00:57,300 --> 01:01:01,600
it would be something
we could live with.

1189
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,800
And that was my hope, too.

1190
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:08,066
So we decided to move
to New York,

1191
01:01:08,066 --> 01:01:11,166
and go visit Harry Benjamin
and see

1192
01:01:11,166 --> 01:01:14,700
if there's anything
to be done for me.

1193
01:01:14,700 --> 01:01:17,500
At that time, anybody who is

1194
01:01:17,500 --> 01:01:19,533
even remotely thinking
of surgery

1195
01:01:19,533 --> 01:01:23,866
had to see Harry Benjamin.

1196
01:01:23,866 --> 01:01:27,233
I didn't dress all that much,
I don't think.

1197
01:01:27,233 --> 01:01:29,700
Julie and I would visit Gale,

1198
01:01:29,700 --> 01:01:32,066
and we would visit Susanna.

1199
01:01:32,066 --> 01:01:34,866
Julie was very much a part,
although she was often

1200
01:01:34,866 --> 01:01:38,000
tortured by it, because she
didn't understand it.

1201
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,266
It was not pleasant for her.

1202
01:01:42,766 --> 01:01:44,533
But she was willing
to go on with that,

1203
01:01:44,533 --> 01:01:48,900
because she wanted, she wanted
this to turn out

1204
01:01:48,900 --> 01:01:52,733
okay for both of us.

1205
01:01:52,733 --> 01:01:56,233
And then
I started to take hormones,

1206
01:01:56,233 --> 01:01:58,233
I started to develop
a little bit.

1207
01:01:58,233 --> 01:02:02,700
And it became apparent that that
was what I wanted.

1208
01:02:02,700 --> 01:02:07,466
So, we came to realize that this
really couldn't work.

1209
01:02:09,233 --> 01:02:12,533
She moved back
to Valparaiso,

1210
01:02:12,533 --> 01:02:16,133
where a good friend of ours,
Paul, asked her to marry him.

1211
01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:20,633
So, Julie and I were separated.

1212
01:02:20,633 --> 01:02:23,633
I was working at
a public relations place.

1213
01:02:23,633 --> 01:02:27,466
I was taking hormones,
I was doing electrolysis,

1214
01:02:27,466 --> 01:02:30,433
and I was...

1215
01:02:30,433 --> 01:02:32,133
it was, it became
more and more known

1216
01:02:32,133 --> 01:02:34,500
that I wanted to have surgery.

1217
01:02:34,500 --> 01:02:38,166
But it didn't seem any
way for me, possibly, to do it,

1218
01:02:38,166 --> 01:02:40,366
because it was
thousands of dollars.

1219
01:02:40,366 --> 01:02:44,200
But then Gloria did call.

1220
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,733
We went out to dinner.

1221
01:02:46,733 --> 01:02:50,300
And he said: "Well, if you
really want to do this,

1222
01:02:50,300 --> 01:02:53,166
"I'll help you out.

1223
01:02:53,166 --> 01:02:55,466
"I'll take you to California,

1224
01:02:55,466 --> 01:02:58,200
"and we'll find a place for you
to do this,

1225
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:01,600
I'll pay for it
and you can stay with me."

1226
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:05,466
So, I resigned and I, um,

1227
01:03:05,466 --> 01:03:08,066
tried to pull everything
together.

1228
01:03:08,066 --> 01:03:12,066
I changed to Diana,

1229
01:03:12,066 --> 01:03:15,566
uh, the night
before the flight,

1230
01:03:15,566 --> 01:03:20,533
and, um, that was the last
time I was David.

1231
01:03:20,533 --> 01:03:23,500
♪ ♪

1232
01:03:23,500 --> 01:03:26,633
It was a very rough
flight to California.

1233
01:03:26,633 --> 01:03:29,866
I thought that
I was going to die,

1234
01:03:29,866 --> 01:03:33,033
and God would have gotten me.
(laughs)

1235
01:03:33,033 --> 01:03:36,033
And my mother
was right all along!

1236
01:03:36,033 --> 01:03:37,866
But, fortunately,
the plane landed.

1237
01:03:37,866 --> 01:03:41,300
And we just kind of
leisurely made our way

1238
01:03:41,300 --> 01:03:42,933
across the country.

1239
01:03:44,366 --> 01:03:47,700
And then, we went to Tijuana.

1240
01:03:49,266 --> 01:03:53,000
In the United States,
this was illegal.

1241
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,200
Everybody agreed that it was
right that it was illegal.

1242
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:58,200
There was no way to find

1243
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:00,600
a moral place to stand,

1244
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,300
and that's a very isolating
experience

1245
01:04:03,300 --> 01:04:06,800
for any human being,
I think, that, to feel like

1246
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,266
who you are is against the law.

1247
01:04:12,866 --> 01:04:16,633
There's still a little bit
of anger in me even now

1248
01:04:16,633 --> 01:04:20,066
that I actually had
to leave the country

1249
01:04:20,066 --> 01:04:22,433
to have the surgery done.

1250
01:04:22,433 --> 01:04:25,066
I feel wronged about that.

1251
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,566
I woke up,

1252
01:04:30,566 --> 01:04:33,333
and it was pretty fierce pain.

1253
01:04:33,333 --> 01:04:36,933
My, my surgery was
certainly not the

1254
01:04:36,933 --> 01:04:39,466
most refined of the surgeries.

1255
01:04:39,466 --> 01:04:42,566
I would have wished that I'd
been able to go another place.

1256
01:04:42,566 --> 01:04:46,266
Casablanca was
the place at the time.

1257
01:04:46,266 --> 01:04:47,866
But that... I didn't have
that,

1258
01:04:47,866 --> 01:04:52,100
and I, I was very grateful
that I got what I got.

1259
01:04:53,866 --> 01:04:55,600
But it was very painful.

1260
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,166
It was in a hospital
where nobody spoke...

1261
01:04:58,166 --> 01:05:00,666
everybody spoke Spanish.

1262
01:05:00,666 --> 01:05:06,300
So I learned "mucho dol..."
"mucho dolor." (laughs)

1263
01:05:06,300 --> 01:05:08,500
And "agua caliente."

1264
01:05:08,500 --> 01:05:13,566
♪ ♪

1265
01:05:18,666 --> 01:05:22,166
Then, Gloria decided we should
drive back to Pennsylvania,

1266
01:05:22,166 --> 01:05:24,566
and on the way we should
stop in Iowa

1267
01:05:24,566 --> 01:05:29,166
and visit my parents.

1268
01:05:29,166 --> 01:05:31,233
We drove across the country,

1269
01:05:31,233 --> 01:05:33,666
Gloria and I.

1270
01:05:33,666 --> 01:05:36,166
And we stopped in Omaha,

1271
01:05:36,166 --> 01:05:39,300
and my father came to meet us.

1272
01:05:39,300 --> 01:05:41,166
And I remember
I was in the room,

1273
01:05:41,166 --> 01:05:46,000
and my hair was in curlers
and he came into the room.

1274
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:49,700
He just, came across the room
and gave me a big hug,

1275
01:05:49,700 --> 01:05:52,733
and said,
"I'm so glad to see you."

1276
01:05:52,733 --> 01:05:56,000
And it was a...

1277
01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:01,266
you know, it was truly an
amazing, amazing gift of love.

1278
01:06:01,266 --> 01:06:06,500
He was an incredible
kind of marriage of

1279
01:06:06,500 --> 01:06:10,266
strength and softness.

1280
01:06:12,100 --> 01:06:15,166
He was both an incredibly

1281
01:06:15,166 --> 01:06:18,033
strong, masculine man,

1282
01:06:18,033 --> 01:06:23,633
but he was an incredibly
gentle soul as well.

1283
01:06:23,633 --> 01:06:26,833
(voice cracking):
And, um...

1284
01:06:28,066 --> 01:06:30,333
Uh...

1285
01:06:31,733 --> 01:06:33,566
That's...

1286
01:06:33,566 --> 01:06:38,433
That's always been a model
for how people should be.

1287
01:06:41,433 --> 01:06:45,466
Uh, that they should, uh...

1288
01:06:47,833 --> 01:06:50,900
have a zest for life,

1289
01:06:50,900 --> 01:06:53,900
and a love for the excitement
of life,

1290
01:06:53,900 --> 01:06:59,300
but a willingness to...

1291
01:06:59,300 --> 01:07:02,800
to give and to...

1292
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:04,966
and to...

1293
01:07:04,966 --> 01:07:09,466
have vulnerability,
to be vulnerable.

1294
01:07:09,466 --> 01:07:14,900
And, and my dad was just
an incredibly...

1295
01:07:14,900 --> 01:07:17,900
he crossed all of those.

1296
01:07:17,900 --> 01:07:20,766
And I don't...
he was a simple man.

1297
01:07:20,766 --> 01:07:25,933
He was not, he was not
some super-educated or...

1298
01:07:25,933 --> 01:07:28,700
but he was just...

1299
01:07:28,700 --> 01:07:31,666
he was just a very good being.

1300
01:07:31,666 --> 01:07:35,700
But that didn't produce
a super-good relationship

1301
01:07:35,700 --> 01:07:38,266
with my parents,
because my mother was just,

1302
01:07:38,266 --> 01:07:39,800
it was just too much.

1303
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,800
You know, they were
in a small town.

1304
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,566
It was embarrassing-- quote
"embarrassing"-- to them

1305
01:07:46,566 --> 01:07:48,933
for me to show up,
to be around.

1306
01:07:48,933 --> 01:07:50,833
I was an embarrassment,
you know.

1307
01:07:50,833 --> 01:07:54,233
So, it was, it was just as well
for... to them that I was...

1308
01:07:54,233 --> 01:07:56,033
kind of disappeared.

1309
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,600
KATHERINE:
My relationship with my wife

1310
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:02,600
was never the kind of secret

1311
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:04,966
that is hidden away in a closet.

1312
01:08:04,966 --> 01:08:08,900
Back in Australia, when I went
to a dinner or a party,

1313
01:08:08,900 --> 01:08:12,500
she knew where I was going
and who I was going to be with.

1314
01:08:12,500 --> 01:08:14,566
And, in fact, she even came

1315
01:08:14,566 --> 01:08:17,733
to a few of the functions
with me.

1316
01:08:17,733 --> 01:08:21,066
When we moved back to America
after a few years,

1317
01:08:21,066 --> 01:08:23,700
we met the Downtown Branch,

1318
01:08:23,700 --> 01:08:26,000
and sometimes others.

1319
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:30,200
But after, I don't know,
four or five times,

1320
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:32,700
she said she would really
rather not come because

1321
01:08:32,700 --> 01:08:35,366
she was afraid of hurting
people's feelings

1322
01:08:35,366 --> 01:08:39,566
by calling them
by the wrong name.

1323
01:08:39,566 --> 01:08:42,333
So, from then on,
I would go by myself.

1324
01:08:44,100 --> 01:08:45,533
In those days, I should add,

1325
01:08:45,533 --> 01:08:47,866
that we didn't visit
Casa Susanna.

1326
01:08:47,866 --> 01:08:51,366
Mainly because the
resort had disappeared.

1327
01:08:51,366 --> 01:08:53,533
I would ask, you know,
"How's Marie?"

1328
01:08:53,533 --> 01:08:57,100
And people would say,
"We, we think she's dead."

1329
01:08:57,100 --> 01:09:00,266
And when I'd ask,
"What about the resort?"

1330
01:09:00,266 --> 01:09:04,600
They'd say, "Oh, it closed
years ago, we don't know."

1331
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:08,266
So, what, it was only
four or five years

1332
01:09:08,266 --> 01:09:10,433
since I'd been there.

1333
01:09:10,433 --> 01:09:13,100
It was nonetheless
as if the resort

1334
01:09:13,100 --> 01:09:16,800
had been all imagination
and had never existed.

1335
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:20,600
And it was strange,
because no one knew.

1336
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,100
You imagined that someone
at least

1337
01:09:22,100 --> 01:09:24,733
would have known the truth
about something.

1338
01:09:24,733 --> 01:09:26,566
Where's Tito?
Nobody knows.

1339
01:09:26,566 --> 01:09:29,800
But that was only one part
of our lives so anyways.

1340
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,633
I was too busy with myself.

1341
01:09:32,633 --> 01:09:37,100
It wasn't so much
that the urge was increasing,

1342
01:09:37,100 --> 01:09:39,433
but the time was passing.

1343
01:09:39,433 --> 01:09:42,433
And I knew that
the proportion of my life

1344
01:09:42,433 --> 01:09:45,900
that I would have to spend
as a woman

1345
01:09:45,900 --> 01:09:50,200
was diminishing compared
to the proportion of my life

1346
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:55,766
that I had already spent,
and would spend, as a man.

1347
01:09:55,766 --> 01:09:58,733
And so the pressure
became greater.

1348
01:09:58,733 --> 01:10:00,333
I kept wanting more and more,

1349
01:10:00,333 --> 01:10:01,766
I wanted to dress
more frequently,

1350
01:10:01,766 --> 01:10:04,400
I wanted to dress with
more freedom.

1351
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:07,900
I felt that I'd spent
the first third of my life

1352
01:10:07,900 --> 01:10:11,300
being the person that my
family wanted me to be.

1353
01:10:11,300 --> 01:10:14,066
And the second third of my
life I had spent being

1354
01:10:14,066 --> 01:10:16,433
what my marital family
wanted me to be.

1355
01:10:16,433 --> 01:10:21,933
And I wanted time for myself
to be the person I wanted to be.

1356
01:10:21,933 --> 01:10:27,133
And, of course, several of my
friends committed suicide.

1357
01:10:27,133 --> 01:10:29,200
And I thought, "Is this
the way I have to go?

1358
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:32,600
"Is this... is there any way
that I'll ever get away

1359
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,433
"from this circle of being
John then Katherine

1360
01:10:35,433 --> 01:10:37,633
"then John then Katherine?

1361
01:10:37,633 --> 01:10:40,700
"Maybe I have to break
the marriage,

1362
01:10:40,700 --> 01:10:43,366
or commit suicide."

1363
01:10:43,366 --> 01:10:45,433
And...

1364
01:10:45,433 --> 01:10:48,600
when I went to my wife
and told her

1365
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,866
that I needed to try
living as a woman,

1366
01:10:51,866 --> 01:10:57,100
she seemed to be very
sympathetic and say,

1367
01:10:57,100 --> 01:11:01,666
"Well, you can't have anything
else happening that's worse."

1368
01:11:01,666 --> 01:11:03,733
Because I think I phrased it,

1369
01:11:03,733 --> 01:11:06,066
"I have to try living
as a woman

1370
01:11:06,066 --> 01:11:09,900
or do something sillier,"
was my phrase.

1371
01:11:09,900 --> 01:11:12,166
And she said,
"Well, we can't have that."

1372
01:11:12,166 --> 01:11:16,166
And we obviously both were
talking about suicide.

1373
01:11:16,166 --> 01:11:20,500
And I thought it was all going
to be all right.

1374
01:11:20,500 --> 01:11:22,833
I told my family.

1375
01:11:22,833 --> 01:11:25,466
My eldest daughter
burst into tears

1376
01:11:25,466 --> 01:11:27,166
and said, "Is that all it is?"

1377
01:11:27,166 --> 01:11:30,833
Because they'd seen the,
the stress that I was under,

1378
01:11:30,833 --> 01:11:34,166
the stress that
my wife was under.

1379
01:11:34,166 --> 01:11:36,000
And they had assumed that,

1380
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,333
like all... every
second family around us,

1381
01:11:39,333 --> 01:11:42,100
I was having an affair
with some other woman.

1382
01:11:42,100 --> 01:11:45,633
Which I was, of course,
but it was me.

1383
01:11:45,633 --> 01:11:49,100
So that was the situation
that, that,

1384
01:11:49,100 --> 01:11:53,000
was really what pushed me
over the edge.

1385
01:11:55,133 --> 01:11:57,900
I had the operation
early in February,

1386
01:11:57,900 --> 01:11:59,433
and at the end of the operation,

1387
01:11:59,433 --> 01:12:02,533
I felt marvelous,
I felt that for the first time

1388
01:12:02,533 --> 01:12:07,966
in my life, I was the real
person and that I had

1389
01:12:07,966 --> 01:12:11,966
discarded those bits of me
that weren't necessary,

1390
01:12:11,966 --> 01:12:14,733
and I, I had gained those bits
of me that were.

1391
01:12:14,733 --> 01:12:19,233
But when I told my family,
it was such a shock to them

1392
01:12:19,233 --> 01:12:24,200
that there weren't really any
questions that I could answer.

1393
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:26,733
One daughter has
been my best friend

1394
01:12:26,733 --> 01:12:30,066
virtually ever since
the operation.

1395
01:12:30,066 --> 01:12:34,666
The other two don't want
to know me as Katherine.

1396
01:12:34,666 --> 01:12:38,066
One of them I haven't
seen for many years.

1397
01:12:38,066 --> 01:12:41,866
The other one wrote me
a letter of...

1398
01:12:41,866 --> 01:12:46,266
of hope when I had my
first heart operation.

1399
01:12:46,266 --> 01:12:50,100
Hoped that I would recover soon,
and be well and so on.

1400
01:12:50,100 --> 01:12:52,566
I thought, "Here is an
opportunity I can take.

1401
01:12:52,566 --> 01:12:56,233
"It would've been worth having
my triple bypass if I can

1402
01:12:56,233 --> 01:13:00,033
make a contact with
my daughter."

1403
01:13:00,033 --> 01:13:03,300
And so, I wrote back to
her and thanked her and said,

1404
01:13:03,300 --> 01:13:05,366
"Maybe when I came out of
the hospital,

1405
01:13:05,366 --> 01:13:08,966
we could sit down for coffee
and have a talk."

1406
01:13:08,966 --> 01:13:15,800
And I received a reply which
said, "It's too soon."

1407
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:19,100
So, I still haven't seen her.

1408
01:13:20,533 --> 01:13:24,600
♪ ♪

1409
01:13:26,766 --> 01:13:28,500
BETSY:
"I drove home calm

1410
01:13:28,500 --> 01:13:31,666
"and filled with thoughts
of the astonishing secret world

1411
01:13:31,666 --> 01:13:34,866
"I had come into.

1412
01:13:36,300 --> 01:13:39,100
"I had heard some
astonishing stories,

1413
01:13:39,100 --> 01:13:40,966
"but I could not
visualize myself

1414
01:13:40,966 --> 01:13:43,200
"taking part in such adventures.

1415
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:45,866
"There is indeed a certain
dead-end element

1416
01:13:45,866 --> 01:13:47,966
"in Gale's life.

1417
01:13:47,966 --> 01:13:50,966
"It was evident in everything
he said and did

1418
01:13:50,966 --> 01:13:53,300
"that he looked back on
each episode

1419
01:13:53,300 --> 01:13:55,800
"as something guilt ridden.

1420
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:58,300
"He was like a man
on a toboggan slide,

1421
01:13:58,300 --> 01:14:00,900
"enjoying the sensation,

1422
01:14:00,900 --> 01:14:04,733
"unable to get off,
and having no idea

1423
01:14:04,733 --> 01:14:08,866
"of what cliff or wall might
lie at the bottom.

1424
01:14:08,866 --> 01:14:11,033
"I saw Gale as a man laughing

1425
01:14:11,033 --> 01:14:13,833
"to cover up a desire to scream

1426
01:14:13,833 --> 01:14:16,366
"as joking,
to keep from crying;

1427
01:14:16,366 --> 01:14:20,200
as running to avoid having
to stop and look at himself."

1428
01:14:29,466 --> 01:14:33,000
My father was somebody, I think,

1429
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:36,100
who really couldn't change.

1430
01:14:36,100 --> 01:14:39,533
Even as Doris,

1431
01:14:39,533 --> 01:14:41,766
my father was still Donald.

1432
01:14:41,766 --> 01:14:47,300
I have a letter from him
to my mother from 1942

1433
01:14:47,300 --> 01:14:52,666
where he says,
"This is the way I am.

1434
01:14:52,666 --> 01:14:55,300
"I am, I'm prone to moods.

1435
01:14:55,300 --> 01:14:58,200
"I have very... I wake up
in the morning, one morning,

1436
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:03,266
"and everything is (muted),
and all people are crap,

1437
01:15:03,266 --> 01:15:06,333
"and there's no good place
for anything,

1438
01:15:06,333 --> 01:15:08,066
"and nothing good could
ever happen,

1439
01:15:08,066 --> 01:15:09,700
"and that's the way I feel.

1440
01:15:09,700 --> 01:15:12,933
"And then I wake up
another morning,

1441
01:15:12,933 --> 01:15:17,066
"and everything seems fine,
and fun,

1442
01:15:17,066 --> 01:15:19,766
and nice, and interesting."

1443
01:15:19,766 --> 01:15:22,566
And that's the way he was
his whole life.

1444
01:15:22,566 --> 01:15:25,433
After they had me,

1445
01:15:25,433 --> 01:15:28,266
things were really happy,

1446
01:15:28,266 --> 01:15:31,466
for the first ten,
maybe, years of my life.

1447
01:15:31,466 --> 01:15:34,600
But as I started to
go through puberty,

1448
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:39,333
my father, um, started
to get insulting...

1449
01:15:41,233 --> 01:15:44,033
And say things like,
"Look like...

1450
01:15:44,033 --> 01:15:46,000
looks like me, poor kid."

1451
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:48,933
He said things to me that were

1452
01:15:48,933 --> 01:15:52,566
absolutely unforgivable.

1453
01:15:52,566 --> 01:15:54,466
Unforgivable.

1454
01:15:54,466 --> 01:15:57,133
When I was 12 years old--
I was 12,

1455
01:15:57,133 --> 01:15:59,533
I was in sixth grade, 12--

1456
01:15:59,533 --> 01:16:03,433
he said I was a liar,
a cheat, and a fraud.

1457
01:16:03,433 --> 01:16:06,466
How could a 12-year-old
be a fraud?

1458
01:16:06,466 --> 01:16:08,766
And I never lied;
I told my mother everything.

1459
01:16:08,766 --> 01:16:12,733
My friends would tease me
that I tell Mommy everything.

1460
01:16:12,733 --> 01:16:14,666
So they would, you know...

1461
01:16:14,666 --> 01:16:16,400
I wasn't... I didn't lie.

1462
01:16:16,400 --> 01:16:18,733
I didn't cheat, because I was
the smartest kid in school.

1463
01:16:18,733 --> 01:16:20,800
So, who would I cheat from?

1464
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:22,300
And I didn't, you know,

1465
01:16:22,300 --> 01:16:23,966
and I wasn't a fraud
because no...

1466
01:16:23,966 --> 01:16:25,666
what 12-year-old
could be a fraud?

1467
01:16:25,666 --> 01:16:28,566
It's ridiculous, impossible.

1468
01:16:28,566 --> 01:16:33,266
And it took me another...

1469
01:16:33,266 --> 01:16:37,000
over 20 years to realize that

1470
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:39,333
that was all projection

1471
01:16:39,333 --> 01:16:41,533
of how he felt about himself.

1472
01:16:41,533 --> 01:16:45,500
He obviously had
a lot of self-hatred,

1473
01:16:45,500 --> 01:16:47,800
which was,
it was like a black cloud

1474
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:50,000
in our household.

1475
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:51,900
Like a whole... like a, a cloud.

1476
01:16:51,900 --> 01:16:55,033
My father was somebody

1477
01:16:55,033 --> 01:16:57,000
who opened his mouth
and said things

1478
01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:00,600
that most people
would consider unsayable.

1479
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:03,333
Really, unsayable.

1480
01:17:03,333 --> 01:17:05,800
He would just say it like
that, no problem.

1481
01:17:07,133 --> 01:17:10,133
He told me I had
no worth as a person.

1482
01:17:10,133 --> 01:17:12,700
That basically
I was just a broodmare.

1483
01:17:12,700 --> 01:17:15,033
I was a worthless piece of crap.

1484
01:17:15,033 --> 01:17:17,133
I mean, I really loved
my father.

1485
01:17:17,133 --> 01:17:19,966
I worshiped him, I adored him,

1486
01:17:19,966 --> 01:17:22,300
I loved him, I idolized him.

1487
01:17:22,300 --> 01:17:26,066
So, every single nasty thing
he said to me,

1488
01:17:26,066 --> 01:17:28,133
I bought it, I bought it all.

1489
01:17:28,133 --> 01:17:30,200
I believed it.

1490
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:33,366
And, um, I'm still
trying to rid myself

1491
01:17:33,366 --> 01:17:36,033
of some of these beliefs
now at age 70.

1492
01:17:37,333 --> 01:17:40,900
I wonder if his own
hatreds for his father,

1493
01:17:40,900 --> 01:17:43,066
he just assumed
that I would hate him

1494
01:17:43,066 --> 01:17:44,366
because he was the father.

1495
01:17:44,366 --> 01:17:46,000
I don't know, I have no idea.

1496
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:49,100
Maybe he hated me because I was
the girl that looked like him.

1497
01:17:49,100 --> 01:17:52,300
I really don't know.
I don't know.

1498
01:17:54,100 --> 01:17:56,466
So, anything that made him happy

1499
01:17:56,466 --> 01:17:59,533
was a happy thing for
our household.

1500
01:17:59,533 --> 01:18:04,600
That's why I feel happiness

1501
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:08,100
that he got pleasure
from cross-dressing.

1502
01:18:08,100 --> 01:18:11,933
Because that was, like,
if you made a chart

1503
01:18:11,933 --> 01:18:14,400
and there was a negative side
and a positive side,

1504
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:16,100
there are so many negatives.

1505
01:18:16,100 --> 01:18:18,966
And that cross-dressing,
he was happy.

1506
01:18:18,966 --> 01:18:20,466
He was happy.

1507
01:18:20,466 --> 01:18:22,700
When I walked around yesterday,

1508
01:18:22,700 --> 01:18:25,300
I looked around here
and I could think,

1509
01:18:25,300 --> 01:18:27,700
I could imagine,
I could imagine all of them,

1510
01:18:27,700 --> 01:18:30,866
you know, going through
the grass in their high heels.

1511
01:18:30,866 --> 01:18:33,700
You know,
coming from the cabins

1512
01:18:33,700 --> 01:18:36,300
and I could imagine them all
so happy and I thought,

1513
01:18:36,300 --> 01:18:40,633
"My father must have been
so happy here."

1514
01:18:43,133 --> 01:18:46,633
He had found a group
that accepted him

1515
01:18:46,633 --> 01:18:48,900
with all of his quirks.

1516
01:18:48,900 --> 01:18:51,233
Even his most outrageous quirk.

1517
01:18:51,233 --> 01:18:53,500
And he says in his book

1518
01:18:53,500 --> 01:18:56,400
that he bonded with people
immediately.

1519
01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:59,633
My father wasn't like that
with other people.

1520
01:18:59,633 --> 01:19:01,200
He really wasn't.

1521
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:03,000
He could be very cruel.

1522
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:05,233
He was very, very cruel.

1523
01:19:05,233 --> 01:19:06,866
He was cruel to my mother.

1524
01:19:06,866 --> 01:19:08,566
He was cruel to me.

1525
01:19:08,566 --> 01:19:11,500
He was cruel to
a lot of his authors.

1526
01:19:11,500 --> 01:19:13,366
He wasn't cruel at all
to others,

1527
01:19:13,366 --> 01:19:16,033
it really depended on
their personality.

1528
01:19:16,033 --> 01:19:20,133
And, um, I don't think
he was ever cruel

1529
01:19:20,133 --> 01:19:23,000
to his fellow transvestites.

1530
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:24,366
Ever.

1531
01:19:24,366 --> 01:19:26,466
He loved them,

1532
01:19:26,466 --> 01:19:28,300
and he bonded with them
in a way

1533
01:19:28,300 --> 01:19:30,266
that he bonded with nobody else.

1534
01:19:30,266 --> 01:19:34,033
(crickets chirping)

1535
01:19:34,033 --> 01:19:39,166
♪ ♪

1536
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:00,200
I didn't feel love
for my father.

1537
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:03,533
Until recently;
I'm almost 70.

1538
01:20:03,533 --> 01:20:05,200
But just recently

1539
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:08,133
I'm beginning to feel like...

1540
01:20:08,133 --> 01:20:12,566
I remember the love
I felt as a child.

1541
01:20:13,833 --> 01:20:16,700
I can feel it again.

1542
01:20:16,700 --> 01:20:19,366
But really, it took decades.

1543
01:20:19,366 --> 01:20:22,766
♪ ♪

1544
01:20:32,433 --> 01:20:35,366
♪ ♪

1545
01:20:35,366 --> 01:20:37,266
DIANA:
Then it was time for me
to sort of imagine

1546
01:20:37,266 --> 01:20:39,166
how would I get out
into the world.

1547
01:20:39,166 --> 01:20:42,833
And one of the things that
I wanted to do was get married.

1548
01:20:42,833 --> 01:20:44,633
I even thought
at the beginning that

1549
01:20:44,633 --> 01:20:46,866
I would love
to have children.

1550
01:20:46,866 --> 01:20:51,500
And much of that was realized.

1551
01:20:51,500 --> 01:20:54,766
I was married to a man
for a while,

1552
01:20:54,766 --> 01:20:59,366
and I had very
traditional ideas about...

1553
01:20:59,366 --> 01:21:01,766
I think both of us did,
actually,

1554
01:21:01,766 --> 01:21:04,866
about how it would be.

1555
01:21:04,866 --> 01:21:07,133
He took me to meet his parents,

1556
01:21:07,133 --> 01:21:10,533
and they were lovely people,
and we had a wonderful time.

1557
01:21:10,533 --> 01:21:12,666
His mother was a
Tupperware salesman,

1558
01:21:12,666 --> 01:21:15,400
and I got lots of Tupperware
and it was wonderful.

1559
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:18,866
So, for the
first couple of years,

1560
01:21:18,866 --> 01:21:20,333
it really was just me,

1561
01:21:20,333 --> 01:21:24,500
kind of learning how
to be a homemaker,

1562
01:21:24,500 --> 01:21:26,033
getting to know his mother,

1563
01:21:26,033 --> 01:21:27,700
having that relationship
with his mother,

1564
01:21:27,700 --> 01:21:28,933
just being domestic.

1565
01:21:28,933 --> 01:21:32,066
And I would have been
very happy

1566
01:21:32,066 --> 01:21:33,666
to be just a housewife,

1567
01:21:33,666 --> 01:21:35,766
but it was not to be that way.

1568
01:21:35,766 --> 01:21:38,500
So eventually we split
and I had to find work.

1569
01:21:38,500 --> 01:21:40,733
And that became
a whole new career,

1570
01:21:40,733 --> 01:21:43,566
and it was quite
an exciting career.

1571
01:21:45,166 --> 01:21:49,166
And had almost nothing to do
with being transgender.

1572
01:21:49,166 --> 01:21:50,766
It had a lot to do with

1573
01:21:50,766 --> 01:21:53,233
being a woman
working in computers.

1574
01:21:53,233 --> 01:21:57,066
When I got to Xerox,
the place was just beaming

1575
01:21:57,066 --> 01:21:59,633
with excitement
and energy and fun.

1576
01:21:59,633 --> 01:22:04,300
It was just outrageous
in a new age-y way.

1577
01:22:04,300 --> 01:22:06,000
So I sort of went from being
a secretary

1578
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:08,666
to being a research scientist.
It was very funny.

1579
01:22:08,666 --> 01:22:10,700
We began to develop

1580
01:22:10,700 --> 01:22:12,533
this language called Small Talk.

1581
01:22:12,533 --> 01:22:14,666
That was a big thing in the day,

1582
01:22:14,666 --> 01:22:16,833
and it did have a large impact

1583
01:22:16,833 --> 01:22:20,300
on a lot of the software
that exists, to this day.

1584
01:22:20,300 --> 01:22:23,333
And here I was, a woman in
this research center

1585
01:22:23,333 --> 01:22:24,766
that was mostly all men.

1586
01:22:24,766 --> 01:22:26,166
And they let me play.

1587
01:22:26,166 --> 01:22:30,433
There was no problem,
you know, it was just...

1588
01:22:30,433 --> 01:22:32,000
"Welcome to the...

1589
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:33,300
to the, to the clan."

1590
01:22:33,300 --> 01:22:35,966
And still,
it was hard for me

1591
01:22:35,966 --> 01:22:38,000
to tell people who I am.

1592
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:42,800
I think there is a piece of me
that feels some regret,

1593
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:44,833
or a kind of sadness.

1594
01:22:44,833 --> 01:22:48,000
Because it's truly very much
a part of who I am.

1595
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:52,466
My whole goal was
to not be afraid.

1596
01:22:52,466 --> 01:22:54,700
I, I didn't want to be afraid.

1597
01:22:54,700 --> 01:22:58,333
I wanted to...
I wanted to be...

1598
01:22:58,333 --> 01:23:01,233
just a human being,

1599
01:23:01,233 --> 01:23:03,400
an alive human being

1600
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:06,866
having a fun, interesting,

1601
01:23:06,866 --> 01:23:08,300
useful life.

1602
01:23:08,300 --> 01:23:10,533
And then, Carol Shapiro

1603
01:23:10,533 --> 01:23:13,166
walked into my life.

1604
01:23:13,166 --> 01:23:15,566
She put her hand up on
the couch, and I put my hand

1605
01:23:15,566 --> 01:23:18,400
on the back of the couch.

1606
01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:20,766
And the next thing we knew,
we were kissing.

1607
01:23:20,766 --> 01:23:23,233
You have to get the idea that

1608
01:23:23,233 --> 01:23:25,466
that was not a common thing.
(chuckles)

1609
01:23:25,466 --> 01:23:27,166
We were not,
that was not

1610
01:23:27,166 --> 01:23:29,533
our normal way of being.

1611
01:23:29,533 --> 01:23:32,366
I mean, you know,
our relationship,

1612
01:23:32,366 --> 01:23:36,533
even to this day,
is just spectacular.

1613
01:23:36,533 --> 01:23:38,566
And it has nothing to do
with Small Talk,

1614
01:23:38,566 --> 01:23:40,233
and it has nothing to do

1615
01:23:40,233 --> 01:23:42,133
with transgender,
and it doesn't...

1616
01:23:42,133 --> 01:23:46,166
Now, Carol is actually
very proud of me.

1617
01:23:46,166 --> 01:23:48,533
(chuckles)
As my...

1618
01:23:48,533 --> 01:23:51,233
in my... even my
transgender past.

1619
01:23:51,233 --> 01:23:54,066
She thinks that,
"Wow, that's pretty incredible!"

1620
01:23:54,066 --> 01:23:58,066
(leaves rustling)

1621
01:23:58,066 --> 01:24:03,300
♪ ♪

1622
01:24:13,133 --> 01:24:15,633
GREGORY:
Maria sold this property

1623
01:24:15,633 --> 01:24:19,933
because it was just
becoming too large to manage.

1624
01:24:19,933 --> 01:24:22,933
I mean, again,
it's 288 acres of land.

1625
01:24:22,933 --> 01:24:26,266
There's, uh, always something
that needed to be done.

1626
01:24:26,266 --> 01:24:28,633
So, she downsized a little bit

1627
01:24:28,633 --> 01:24:32,633
and moved a couple of miles away
to a 188-acre property,

1628
01:24:32,633 --> 01:24:35,633
which became known as
Casa Susanna...

1629
01:24:37,100 --> 01:24:40,566
Which was a
totally different operation.

1630
01:24:40,566 --> 01:24:41,966
They didn't do
cross-dressing shows,

1631
01:24:41,966 --> 01:24:45,066
but it became like
the bed and breakfast

1632
01:24:45,066 --> 01:24:47,300
of the cross-dressing community.

1633
01:24:47,300 --> 01:24:48,600
Where people could come

1634
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:50,800
and stay and enjoy themselves

1635
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,533
for the time
that they were here.

1636
01:24:53,533 --> 01:24:56,600
♪ ♪

1637
01:24:56,600 --> 01:25:00,733
That was another magical place,
and Susanna

1638
01:25:00,733 --> 01:25:03,666
spent a lot of time
of her life up there.

1639
01:25:03,666 --> 01:25:07,100
And would go out regularly,
to the store

1640
01:25:07,100 --> 01:25:09,133
or to parties.

1641
01:25:09,133 --> 01:25:11,066
She was her own individual

1642
01:25:11,066 --> 01:25:13,366
and wasn't
sheltered to the house.

1643
01:25:13,366 --> 01:25:16,433
and hiding undercover there,

1644
01:25:16,433 --> 01:25:18,900
she was quite flamboyant.

1645
01:25:18,900 --> 01:25:20,666
And she actually
enjoyed the property

1646
01:25:20,666 --> 01:25:23,000
a lot more than Tito did.

1647
01:25:25,433 --> 01:25:28,200
They were separate individuals.

1648
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:31,800
Tito was a person who, you know,

1649
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,566
worked for radio for years,
had his own show.

1650
01:25:34,566 --> 01:25:39,200
And Susanna got into

1651
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:41,500
the translation business
at the U.N.,

1652
01:25:41,500 --> 01:25:44,333
so she was also eventually

1653
01:25:44,333 --> 01:25:47,600
able to support herself.

1654
01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:51,600
Again, they were both separate
and individual people.

1655
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:55,700
Although I think that Tito
was taking hormones

1656
01:25:55,700 --> 01:25:59,666
to grow breasts
to transform

1657
01:25:59,666 --> 01:26:03,166
and live as Susanna full-time.

1658
01:26:03,166 --> 01:26:05,266
I did... spoke to her
about that,

1659
01:26:05,266 --> 01:26:09,633
and I said, "Well, you know,
suppose you became a woman,

1660
01:26:09,633 --> 01:26:13,866
would you want, you know,
the comfort of a man?"

1661
01:26:13,866 --> 01:26:15,733
And she said no.

1662
01:26:15,733 --> 01:26:19,666
So, she was pretty adamant about

1663
01:26:19,666 --> 01:26:21,733
her relationship with Maria,

1664
01:26:21,733 --> 01:26:25,100
so I guess that would
make them a lesbian couple.

1665
01:26:25,100 --> 01:26:28,400
(water rushing, leaves rustling)

1666
01:26:33,766 --> 01:26:37,100
This used to be the
old swimming hole down here.

1667
01:26:37,100 --> 01:26:38,833
We used to come here
almost every day.

1668
01:26:38,833 --> 01:26:41,933
My grandmother used to dam up

1669
01:26:41,933 --> 01:26:44,533
so we can get a big,
deep swimming pool here.

1670
01:26:44,533 --> 01:26:47,500
And then every year in the fall,

1671
01:26:47,500 --> 01:26:49,600
the water would just
wash everything away,

1672
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:52,366
and we'd have to put
a new dam in every year.

1673
01:26:52,366 --> 01:26:54,433
I can see some of the rocks

1674
01:26:54,433 --> 01:26:56,200
that are still there from

1675
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:57,733
when we used to do that.

1676
01:27:03,300 --> 01:27:05,533
(water rushing, bird cawing)

1677
01:27:17,333 --> 01:27:19,133
What's remarkable is

1678
01:27:19,133 --> 01:27:21,200
my family used to own
that mountain.

1679
01:27:23,666 --> 01:27:26,600
Maria was up in the house
in Mount Vernon

1680
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:28,333
because we had moved there.

1681
01:27:28,333 --> 01:27:33,166
And I was actually staying at
her house on 103rd Street.

1682
01:27:34,900 --> 01:27:38,233
Um, so my brother Richard
called me and said

1683
01:27:38,233 --> 01:27:41,766
that she had fallen
down a flight of stairs,

1684
01:27:41,766 --> 01:27:43,666
and that she had, you know,

1685
01:27:43,666 --> 01:27:47,100
cracked open her skull
and was unconscious.

1686
01:27:47,100 --> 01:27:50,300
And he didn't know for
how long she was lying there.

1687
01:27:50,300 --> 01:27:53,566
And called an ambulance and
brought her to the hospital.

1688
01:27:54,833 --> 01:27:57,466
But she was seriously hurt.

1689
01:27:57,466 --> 01:28:00,700
She had to have three
burr holes cut into her skull

1690
01:28:00,700 --> 01:28:03,066
to relieve the pressure
from the hematoma

1691
01:28:03,066 --> 01:28:06,766
that was growing under there
and the bleeding,

1692
01:28:06,766 --> 01:28:11,600
and had a very long
convalescence after that.

1693
01:28:11,600 --> 01:28:17,833
And not only did we
have to go through that,

1694
01:28:17,833 --> 01:28:19,600
helping her with
her convalescence,

1695
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:23,400
but the hospital bills
from that inc... incident

1696
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:25,066
were astronomical

1697
01:28:25,066 --> 01:28:29,800
and put an extreme financial
pressure on the family.

1698
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:33,066
And especially on Tito.

1699
01:28:33,066 --> 01:28:35,400
You know, he had to
take care of his family

1700
01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:36,566
and that's what he did.

1701
01:28:36,566 --> 01:28:38,033
And, you know, that became

1702
01:28:38,033 --> 01:28:45,866
his motivation in
every waking minute was...

1703
01:28:45,866 --> 01:28:48,566
and all of his energy
was put into that, so,

1704
01:28:48,566 --> 01:28:51,866
they had to sell Casa Susanna,

1705
01:28:51,866 --> 01:28:53,900
and that was the end of
the property.

1706
01:28:53,900 --> 01:28:57,900
♪ ♪

1707
01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:05,733
And then I would say
in the '80s,

1708
01:29:05,733 --> 01:29:08,966
my grandmother was
getting worse and worse,

1709
01:29:08,966 --> 01:29:11,433
and then starting to
get into her hoarding phase.

1710
01:29:11,433 --> 01:29:13,833
She had a, um, eight-room

1711
01:29:13,833 --> 01:29:17,166
Upper West Side apartment
in the city,

1712
01:29:17,166 --> 01:29:20,366
and there was barely a path
to walk from the kitchen

1713
01:29:20,366 --> 01:29:23,766
to the bedroom
to the bathroom.

1714
01:29:23,766 --> 01:29:28,533
So, Susanna got her own
apartment on 42nd Street

1715
01:29:28,533 --> 01:29:33,966
and started living
as Susanna full-time.

1716
01:29:33,966 --> 01:29:37,800
And she slowly but surely
created her identity

1717
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:42,466
and got a driver's license,
and a Social Security card.

1718
01:29:42,466 --> 01:29:45,533
But also during that time,

1719
01:29:45,533 --> 01:29:47,966
Susanna had
developed a brain tumor,

1720
01:29:47,966 --> 01:29:50,100
which was inoperable.

1721
01:29:50,100 --> 01:29:54,200
And eventually she
was going to die from it.

1722
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:56,100
So, Maria was a hoarder,

1723
01:29:56,100 --> 01:29:59,133
Susanna had brain cancer,

1724
01:29:59,133 --> 01:30:03,866
and their lives
physically were separated,

1725
01:30:03,866 --> 01:30:07,300
but they were always in
communication with each other.

1726
01:30:07,300 --> 01:30:10,300
And I would sometimes
overhear their conversations

1727
01:30:10,300 --> 01:30:12,766
and they were very endearing.

1728
01:30:12,766 --> 01:30:14,733
And always ending with,
you know,

1729
01:30:14,733 --> 01:30:17,233
"I love you, I miss you,
lots of kisses,

1730
01:30:17,233 --> 01:30:19,633
and someday soon we'll be
back together again."

1731
01:30:19,633 --> 01:30:21,533
Which was incredibly sweet,
I thought.

1732
01:30:24,133 --> 01:30:27,400
But they couldn't.

1733
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:30,800
In fact, when Marie died,
Susanna was

1734
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:32,866
in such a state
that she couldn't move

1735
01:30:32,866 --> 01:30:34,200
from that apartment.

1736
01:30:36,300 --> 01:30:39,033
And she passed
the week after Maria died.

1737
01:30:40,900 --> 01:30:43,466
We were told
she was laying on the bed,

1738
01:30:43,466 --> 01:30:45,166
fully dressed as Susanna.

1739
01:30:47,466 --> 01:30:50,033
♪ ♪

1740
01:31:00,766 --> 01:31:03,700
I loved your
grandmother, Maria.

1741
01:31:03,700 --> 01:31:05,500
GREGORY:
She was an incredible woman.

1742
01:31:05,500 --> 01:31:06,833
She was such a strong woman,

1743
01:31:06,833 --> 01:31:08,133
and I know she
put you all to work

1744
01:31:08,133 --> 01:31:10,700
immediately when you got here.
(laughs)

1745
01:31:10,700 --> 01:31:12,166
There were some
cross-dressers

1746
01:31:12,166 --> 01:31:13,700
who just wanted to get
into the washing up

1747
01:31:13,700 --> 01:31:15,666
and scrubbing the floor.
(all laugh)

1748
01:31:15,666 --> 01:31:17,133
That wasn't me.
I was the percher

1749
01:31:17,133 --> 01:31:19,800
on the bar stool one.
(all laugh)

1750
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:21,366
I mean, that building
was fantastic.

1751
01:31:21,366 --> 01:31:23,366
There was so many, you know,

1752
01:31:23,366 --> 01:31:25,533
incredibly talented people
that came here.
DIANA: Yeah.

1753
01:31:25,533 --> 01:31:27,533
For a long time--

1754
01:31:27,533 --> 01:31:28,966
well, for some time, anyway--

1755
01:31:28,966 --> 01:31:30,533
there was the sort of belief

1756
01:31:30,533 --> 01:31:34,700
that you really didn't
find that community

1757
01:31:34,700 --> 01:31:36,366
unless you were intelligent

1758
01:31:36,366 --> 01:31:40,600
and educated and inquiring
and all these things.

1759
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:43,466
It wasn't that at all, actually,
it was just communication.

1760
01:31:43,466 --> 01:31:45,200
You weren't allowed to
put an ad in the paper saying,

1761
01:31:45,200 --> 01:31:47,533
"Cross-dressers interested..."
Right.

1762
01:31:47,533 --> 01:31:49,466
"...in a resort
at the Catskills."

1763
01:31:49,466 --> 01:31:51,266
You just couldn't do that.
Mm-hmm.

1764
01:31:51,266 --> 01:31:52,833
So, it all had to be
word of mouth,

1765
01:31:52,833 --> 01:31:55,933
and the word-of-mouth people
tended to be

1766
01:31:55,933 --> 01:31:59,500
university graduates
and the professionals.

1767
01:31:59,500 --> 01:32:01,366
So, yes, it
was a select group

1768
01:32:01,366 --> 01:32:03,600
that used to come here,
and it was

1769
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:05,100
a very interesting group.

1770
01:32:05,100 --> 01:32:07,266
So how old were you
at that time?

1771
01:32:07,266 --> 01:32:10,133
I was-- again,
anywhere from five...

1772
01:32:10,133 --> 01:32:12,100
I was born in 1951, so, um...

1773
01:32:12,100 --> 01:32:14,033
DIANA:
So you were just a kid!

1774
01:32:14,033 --> 01:32:15,600
I was just a kid, I know.

1775
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:17,966
I mean, we couldn't come
and see the show,

1776
01:32:17,966 --> 01:32:20,566
so we'd peek through the window
until we got caught.

1777
01:32:20,566 --> 01:32:23,400
That's, that's perfect.
So, if you were born

1778
01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:25,266
in the '50s, I'm well ahead of
you, because I'm 86.

1779
01:32:25,266 --> 01:32:29,133
Oh, God bless you, look at that.
(laughter)

1780
01:32:29,133 --> 01:32:32,033
So, um...

1781
01:32:32,033 --> 01:32:33,466
I...

1782
01:32:33,466 --> 01:32:35,433
I want to, I want to tell you
both something

1783
01:32:35,433 --> 01:32:39,600
because, you know,
it's long been a...

1784
01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:43,233
a dream or even a quest of mine,

1785
01:32:43,233 --> 01:32:46,366
because I actually am
the holder of

1786
01:32:46,366 --> 01:32:49,600
Susanna, Maria's,
and Yolanda's ashes.

1787
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:51,733
DIANA:
Oh my goodness.

1788
01:32:51,733 --> 01:32:54,400
And I've always wanted to

1789
01:32:54,400 --> 01:32:56,766
bring them here and, um...

1790
01:32:56,766 --> 01:32:58,833
(sniffs)
Excuse me.

1791
01:32:58,833 --> 01:33:02,066
(voice breaking):
And pass them out.

1792
01:33:02,066 --> 01:33:04,233
Because I think that this is

1793
01:33:04,233 --> 01:33:06,666
the place for them
to be, you know, and...

1794
01:33:06,666 --> 01:33:09,000
DIANA:
Seems like the perfect place,
seems like

1795
01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:11,533
the perfect place.
...place, and I would...

1796
01:33:11,533 --> 01:33:13,366
I would be honored, if you two

1797
01:33:13,366 --> 01:33:15,033
would help me do that.

1798
01:33:15,033 --> 01:33:17,833
DIANA:
It would be my great honor.

1799
01:33:17,833 --> 01:33:20,200
It'd be my great honor.

1800
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:22,200
So how do we go about that?

1801
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:23,833
Yeah, we were going to...

1802
01:33:23,833 --> 01:33:25,966
I was going to do it over
by that tree over there.

1803
01:33:25,966 --> 01:33:27,833
DIANA:
Okay.

1804
01:33:27,833 --> 01:33:31,100
...because it has
some color, and, um...

1805
01:33:31,100 --> 01:33:33,366
(inhales)
And, um...

1806
01:33:33,366 --> 01:33:36,666
I just think that
they should be here.

1807
01:33:36,666 --> 01:33:41,466
♪ ♪

1808
01:33:49,500 --> 01:33:51,733
(ashes pouring)

1809
01:33:55,800 --> 01:34:02,033
♪ ♪

1810
01:34:16,033 --> 01:34:20,466
♪ ♪

1811
01:34:46,733 --> 01:34:52,766
♪ ♪

1812
01:35:08,666 --> 01:35:14,533
♪ ♪

1813
01:35:41,400 --> 01:35:47,333
♪ ♪

1814
01:36:04,033 --> 01:36:10,200
♪ ♪

1815
01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:16,200
♪ ♪

1816
01:36:22,933 --> 01:36:26,533
♪ ♪

1817
01:36:31,633 --> 01:36:36,433
♪ ♪

1818
01:36:42,200 --> 01:36:45,800
♪ ♪