1 00:00:06,973 --> 00:00:14,981 PARK >>> . >>> THERE IS A REVOLUTION 2 00:00:15,048 --> 00:00:21,187 HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN THE WORLD OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. CONFOUNDING. ARE WE READY FOR IT? 3 00:00:21,254 --> 00:00:26,559 >> I AM RARELY SPEECHLESS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS. >> WITH RARE ACCESS, WE WILL 4 00:00:26,626 --> 00:00:34,334 SHOW YOU WHAT GOOGLE IS DEVELOPING, AND THE QUESTIONS THEY'RE ASKING THEMSELVES. >> ON MY WAY, I WILL BRING AN 5 00:00:34,401 --> 00:00:40,940 APPLE TO YOU. >> AS THEY BEGIN TO UNVEIL COMPUTING POWER THAT WILL CHANGE EVERY PART OF OUR WORLD FOREVER. 6 00:00:41,007 --> 00:00:46,346 >> I'VE BEEN WORKING ON AI FOR DECADES NOW, AND I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT IT'S GOING TO BE THE MOST IMPORTANT INVENTION 7 00:00:46,413 --> 00:00:54,287 THAT HUMANITY WILL EVER MAKE. >>> PLEASE DON'T JUDGE ME. >> DO YOU LIKE BOOKS ABOUT ADVENTURES AND HEROISM? 8 00:00:54,354 --> 00:01:00,160 TRUE STORIES WITH UNBELIEVABLE OUTCOMES? THEN AUTHOR DAVID GRANN IS YOUR MAN. 9 00:01:00,226 --> 00:01:07,600 TODAY, HE'S ONE OF THE WORLD'S TOP-SELLING WRITERS, IN PART, BECAUSE OF HIS HANDS-ON YEARS-LONG RESEARCH THAT 10 00:01:07,667 --> 00:01:12,806 BREATHES LIFE BACK INTO HIS FEARLESS CHARACTERS. BUT GRANN IS THE FIRST TO ADMIT -- 11 00:01:12,872 --> 00:01:18,111 >> I AM NOT AN EXPLORER. I MEAN, I WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DIE ON THE ISLAND. LET'S BE PERFECTLY HONEST. 12 00:01:18,178 --> 00:01:25,485 >> WHAT'S THE CAUSE OF DEATH? >> OH, MY CAUSE OF DEATH. TERROR? [ LAUGHTER ] 13 00:01:25,552 --> 00:01:30,390 >>> I'M LESLEY STAHL. >> I'M BILL WHITAKER. >> I'M ANDERSON COOPER. >> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. 14 00:01:30,457 --> 00:01:43,403 >> I'M JON WERTHEIM. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES AND MORE TONIGHT ON "60 MINUTES." 15 00:01:43,470 --> 00:01:52,979 >>> WE MAY LOOK ON OUR TIME AS THE MOMENT CIVILIZATION WAS TRANSFORMED AS IT WAS BY FIRE, AGRICULTURE AND ELECTRICITY. 16 00:01:53,046 --> 00:02:02,322 IN 2023, WE LEARNED THAT A MACHINE TAUGHT ITSELF HOW TO SPEAK TO HUMANS LIKE A PEER. WHICH IS TO SAY, WITH 17 00:02:02,388 --> 00:02:09,596 CREATIVITY, TRUTH, ERROR, AND LIES. THE TECHNOLOGY, KNOWN AS A CHATBOT, IS ONLY ONE OF THE 18 00:02:09,662 --> 00:02:20,240 RECENT BREAKTHROUGHS IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE - MACHINES THAT CAN TEACH THEMSELVES SUPERHUMAN SKILLS. 19 00:02:20,306 --> 00:02:26,613 WE EXPLORED WHAT'S COMING NEXT AT GOOGLE, A LEADER IN THIS NEW WORLD. CEO SUNDAR PICHAI TOLD US AI 20 00:02:26,679 --> 00:02:36,689 WILL BE AS GOOD OR AS EVIL AS HUMAN NATURE ALLOWS. THE REVOLUTION, HE SAYS, IS COMING FASTER THAN YOU KNOW. 21 00:02:36,756 --> 00:02:43,129 >> DO YOU THINK SOCIETY IS PREPARED FOR WHAT'S COMING? >> YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TWO WAYS I THINK ABOUT IT. 22 00:02:43,196 --> 00:02:51,471 ON ONE HAND I FEEL, NO, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE PACE AT WHICH WE CAN THINK AND ADAPT AS SOCIETAL INSTITUTIONS, COMPARED TO THE 23 00:02:51,538 --> 00:02:56,976 PACE AT WHICH THE TECHNOLOGY'S EVOLVING, THERE SEEMS TO BE A MISMATCH. ON THE OTHER HAND, COMPARED TO 24 00:02:57,043 --> 00:03:03,950 ANY OTHER TECHNOLOGY, I'VE SEEN MORE PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT IT EARLIER IN ITS LIFE CYCLE. SO I FEEL OPTIMISTIC THE NUMBER 25 00:03:04,017 --> 00:03:10,890 OF PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, WHO HAVE STARTED WORRYING ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS, AND HENCE THE CONVERSATIONS ARE STARTING IN A 26 00:03:10,957 --> 00:03:17,797 SERIOUS WAY AS WELL. >> OUR CONVERSATIONS WITH 50-YEAR-OLD SUNDAR PICHAI STARTED AT GOOGLE'S NEW CAMPUS 27 00:03:17,864 --> 00:03:29,943 IN MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA. IT RUNS ON 40% SOLAR POWER AND COLLECTS MORE WATER THAN IT USES -- HI-TECH THAT PICHAI COULDN'T 28 00:03:30,009 --> 00:03:41,654 HAVE IMAGINED GROWING UP IN INDIA WITH NO TELEPHONE AT HOME. >> WE WERE ON A WAITING LIST TO GET A ROTARY PHONE, AND FOR 29 00:03:41,721 --> 00:03:48,328 ABOUT FIVE YEARS. AND IT FINALLY CAME HOME. I CAN STILL RECALL IT VIVIDLY. IT CHANGED OUR LIVES. 30 00:03:48,394 --> 00:03:55,335 TO ME, IT WAS THE FIRST MOMENT I UNDERSTOOD THE POWER OF WHAT GETTING ACCESS TO TECHNOLOGY MEANT AND, SO, PROBABLY LED ME 31 00:03:55,401 --> 00:04:01,240 TO BE DOING WHAT I'M DOING TODAY. >> WHAT HE'S DOING, SINCE 2019, IS LEADING BOTH GOOGLE AND ITS 32 00:04:01,307 --> 00:04:13,987 PARENT COMPANY, ALPHABET, VALUED AT $1.3 TRILLION. WORLDWIDE, GOOGLE RUNS 90% OF INTERNET SEARCHES AND 70% OF 33 00:04:14,053 --> 00:04:19,892 SMARTPHONES. BUT ITS DOMINANCE WAS ATTACKED THIS PAST FEBRUARY WHEN MICROSOFT LINKED ITS SEARCH 34 00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:29,469 ENGINE TO A CHATBOT. IN A RACE FOR AI DOMINANCE, GOOGLE JUST RELEASED ITS CHATBOT NAMED BARD. 35 00:04:29,535 --> 00:04:38,011 >> IT'S REALLY HERE TO HELP YOU BRAINSTORM IDEAS, TO GENERATE CONTENT, LIKE A SPEECH, OR A BLOG POST, OR AN EMAIL. 36 00:04:38,077 --> 00:04:46,519 >> WE WERE INTRODUCED TO BARD BY GOOGLE VICE PRESIDENT SISSIE HSIAO AND SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT JAMES MANYIKA. 37 00:04:46,586 --> 00:04:54,460 THE FIRST THING WE LEARNED WAS THAT BARD DOES NOT LOOK FOR ANSWERS ON THE INTERNET LIKE GOOGLE SEARCH DOES. 38 00:04:54,527 --> 00:05:01,968 >> SO I WANTED TO GET INSPIRATION FROM SOME OF THE BEST SPEECHES IN THE WORLD. >> BARD'S REPLIES COME FROM A 39 00:05:02,035 --> 00:05:08,875 SELF-CONTAINED PROGRAM THAT WAS MOSTLY SELF-TAUGHT. OUR EXPERIENCE WAS UNSETTLING. >> CONFOUNDING, ABSOLUTELY 40 00:05:08,941 --> 00:05:16,349 CONFOUNDING. BARD APPEARED TO POSSESS THE SUM OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE... AHHHH... 41 00:05:16,416 --> 00:05:23,256 ...WITH MICRO CHIPS MORE THAN 100,000 TIMES FASTER THAN THE HUMAN BRAIN. WE ASKED BARD TO SUMMARIZE THE 42 00:05:23,322 --> 00:05:31,297 NEW TESTAMENT. IT DID, IN FIVE SECONDS AND 17 WORDS. WE ASKED FOR IT IN LATIN - THAT 43 00:05:31,364 --> 00:05:41,874 TOOK ANOTHER FOUR SECONDS. THEN, WE PLAYED WITH A FAMOUS SIX-WORD SHORT STORY, OFTEN ATTRIBUTED TO HEMINGWAY. 44 00:05:41,941 --> 00:05:50,950 >> FOR SALE, BABY SHOES, NEVER WORN. >> THE ONLY PROMPT WE GAVE WAS "FINISH THIS STORY," IN FIVE 45 00:05:51,017 --> 00:06:00,093 SECONDS... >> HOLY COW! THE SHOES WERE A GIFT FROM MY WIFE, BUT WE NEVER HAD A BABY... 46 00:06:00,159 --> 00:06:18,144 >> FROM THE SIX-WORD PROMPT, BARD CREATED A DEEPLY HUMAN TALE WITH CHARACTERS IT INVENTED INCLUDING A MAN WHOSE WIFE COULD 47 00:06:18,211 --> 00:06:25,618 NOT CONCEIVE, AND A STRANGER, GRIEVING AFTER A MISCARRIAGE, AND LONGING FOR CLOSURE. >> I AM RARELY SPEECHLESS. 48 00:06:25,685 --> 00:06:30,456 I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS. GIVE ME THAT STORY... >> WE ASKED FOR THE STORY IN 49 00:06:30,523 --> 00:06:37,897 VERSE. IN FIVE SECONDS, THERE WAS A POEM WRITTEN BY A MACHINE WITH BREATHTAKING INSIGHT INTO THE 50 00:06:37,964 --> 00:06:49,075 MYSTERY OF FAITH. BARD WROTE, "SHE KNEW HER BABY'S SOUL WOULD ALWAYS BE ALIVE." THE HUMANITY, AT SUPERHUMAN 51 00:06:49,142 --> 00:06:57,617 SPEED, WAS A SHOCK. >> HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? >> JAMES MANYIKA TOLD US THAT OVER SEVERAL MONTHS, BARD READ 52 00:06:57,683 --> 00:07:05,658 MOST EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET AND CREATED A MODEL OF WHAT LANGUAGE LOOKS LIKE. RATHER THAN SEARCH, ITS ANSWERS 53 00:07:05,725 --> 00:07:17,870 COME FROM THIS LANGUAGE MODEL. >> SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF I SAID TO YOU, SCOTT, "PEANUT BUTTER AND?" >> JELLY. 54 00:07:17,937 --> 00:07:24,243 >> RIGHT. SO, IT TRIES AND LEARNS TO PREDICT, OKAY, SO PEANUT BUTTER USUALLY IS FOLLOWED BY JELLY. 55 00:07:24,310 --> 00:07:30,216 IT TRIES TO PREDICT THE MOST PROBABLE NEXT WORDS, BASED ON EVERYTHING IT'S LEARNED. SO, IT'S NOT GOING OUT TO FIND 56 00:07:30,283 --> 00:07:34,387 STUFF, IT'S JUST PREDICTING THE NEXT WORD. >> BUT IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE THAT. 57 00:07:34,453 --> 00:07:44,463 WE ASKED BARD WHY IT HELPS PEOPLE, AND IT REPLIED, QUOTE, "BECAUSE IT MAKES ME HAPPY." >> BARD, TO MY EYE, APPEARS TO 58 00:07:44,530 --> 00:07:52,972 BE THINKING, APPEARS TO BE MAKING JUDGMENTS. THAT'S NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING? THESE MACHINES ARE NOT SENTIENT. 59 00:07:53,039 --> 00:08:00,479 THEY ARE NOT AWARE OF THEMSELVES. >> THEY'RE NOT SENTIENT, THEY'RE NOT AWARE OF THEMSELVES. 60 00:08:00,546 --> 00:08:05,251 THEY CAN EXHIBIT BEHAVIORS THAT LOOK LIKE THAT. BECAUSE, KEEP IN MIND, THEY'VE LEARNED FROM US. 61 00:08:05,318 --> 00:08:13,793 WE'RE SENTIENT BEINGS. WE HAVE BEINGS THAT HAVE FEELINGS, EMOTIONS, IDEAS, THOUGHTS, PERSPECTIVES. 62 00:08:13,860 --> 00:08:21,734 WE'VE REFLECTED ALL THAT IN BOOKS, IN NOVELS, IN FICTION. SO, WHEN THEY LEARN FROM THAT, THEY BUILD PATTERNS FROM THAT. 63 00:08:21,801 --> 00:08:28,674 SO, IT'S NO SURPRISE TO ME THAT THE EXHIBITED BEHAVIOR SOMETIMES LOOKS LIKE MAYBE THERE'S SOMEBODY BEHIND IT. 64 00:08:28,741 --> 00:08:36,649 THERE'S NOBODY THERE. THESE ARE NOT SENTIENT BEINGS. >> ZIMBABWE BORN, OXFORD EDUCATED, JAMES MANYIKA HOLDS A 65 00:08:36,716 --> 00:08:46,259 NEW POSITION AT GOOGLE - HIS JOB IS TO THINK ABOUT HOW AI AND HUMANITY WILL BEST CO-EXIST. >> AI HAS THE POTENTIAL TO 66 00:08:46,325 --> 00:08:54,233 CHANGE MANY WAYS IN WHICH WE'VE THOUGHT ABOUT SOCIETY, ABOUT WHAT WE'RE ABLE TO DO, THE PROBLEMS WE CAN SOLVE. 67 00:08:54,300 --> 00:09:00,206 >> BUT AI ITSELF WILL POSE ITS OWN PROBLEMS. COULD HEMINGWAY WRITE A BETTER SHORT STORY? 68 00:09:00,273 --> 00:09:09,181 MAYBE. BUT BARD CAN WRITE A MILLION BEFORE HEMINGWAY COULD FINISH ONE. 69 00:09:09,248 --> 00:09:14,553 IMAGINE THAT LEVEL OF AUTOMATION ACROSS THE ECONOMY. >> A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN BE REPLACED BY THIS TECHNOLOGY. 70 00:09:14,620 --> 00:09:20,927 >> YES, THERE ARE SOME JOB OCCUPATIONS THAT'LL START TO DECLINE OVER TIME. THERE ARE ALSO NEW JOB 71 00:09:20,993 --> 00:09:27,300 CATEGORIES THAT'LL GROW OVER TIME. BUT THE BIGGEST CHANGE WILL BE THE JOBS THAT'LL BE CHANGED. 72 00:09:27,366 --> 00:09:33,205 SOMETHING LIKE MORE THAN TWO-THIRDS WILL HAVE THEIR DEFINITIONS CHANGE. NOT GO AWAY, BUT CHANGE. 73 00:09:33,272 --> 00:09:40,079 BECAUSE THEY'RE NOW BEING ASSISTED BY AI AND BY AUTOMATION. SO THIS IS A PROFOUND CHANGE 74 00:09:40,146 --> 00:09:46,485 WHICH HAS IMPLICATIONS FOR SKILLS. HOW DO WE ASSIST PEOPLE TO BUILD NEW SKILLS, LEARN TO WORK 75 00:09:46,552 --> 00:09:52,858 ALONGSIDE MACHINES? AND HOW DO THESE COMPLEMENT WHAT PEOPLE DO TODAY? >> THIS IS GOING TO IMPACT EVERY 76 00:09:52,925 --> 00:09:58,698 PRODUCT ACROSS EVERY COMPANY, AND SO THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S A VERY, VERY PROFOUND TECHNOLOGY. AND, SO, WE ARE JUST IN EARLY 77 00:09:58,764 --> 00:10:03,502 DAYS. >> EVERY PRODUCT IN EVERY COMPANY. >> THAT'S RIGHT. 78 00:10:03,569 --> 00:10:12,645 AI WILL IMPACT EVERYTHING. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU COULD BE A RADIOLOGIST. IF YOU THINK ABOUT FIVE TO TEN 79 00:10:12,712 --> 00:10:18,317 YEARS FROM NOW, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AN AI COLLABORATOR WITH YOU. IT MAY TRIAGE. 80 00:10:18,384 --> 00:10:23,622 YOU COME IN THE MORNING. YOU -- LET'S SAY YOU HAVE 100 THINGS TO GO THROUGH. IT MAY SAY, "THESE ARE THE MOST 81 00:10:23,689 --> 00:10:28,427 SERIOUS CASES YOU NEED TO LOOK AT FIRST." OR WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT SOMETHING, IT MAY POP UP AND 82 00:10:28,494 --> 00:10:34,834 SAY, "YOU MAY HAVE MISSED SOMETHING IMPORTANT." WHY WOULDN'T WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A SUPER-POWERED ASSISTANT TO 83 00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:40,673 HELP YOU ACROSS EVERYTHING YOU DO? YOU MAY BE A STUDENT TRYING TO LEARN MATH OR HISTORY. 84 00:10:40,740 --> 00:10:47,380 AND, YOU KNOW, YOU WILL HAVE SOMETHING HELPING YOU. >> WE ASKED PICHAI WHAT JOBS WOULD BE DISRUPTED. 85 00:10:47,446 --> 00:10:56,122 HE SAID, "KNOWLEDGE WORKERS." PEOPLE LIKE WRITERS, ACCOUNTANTS, ARCHITECTS AND, IRONICALLY, SOFTWARE ENGINEERS. 86 00:10:56,188 --> 00:11:05,798 AI WRITES COMPUTER CODE, TOO. TODAY SUNDAR PICHAI WALKS A NARROW LINE. A FEW EMPLOYEES HAVE QUIT, SOME 87 00:11:05,865 --> 00:11:14,840 BELIEVING THAT GOOGLE'S AI ROLLOUT IS TOO SLOW, OTHERS -- TOO FAST. THERE ARE SOME SERIOUS FLAWS. 88 00:11:14,907 --> 00:11:21,747 JAMES MANYIKA ASKED BARD ABOUT INFLATION. IT WROTE AN INSTANT ESSAY IN ECONOMICS AND RECOMMENDED FIVE 89 00:11:21,814 --> 00:11:33,959 BOOKS. BUT DAYS LATER, WE CHECKED. NONE OF THE BOOKS IS REAL. BARD FABRICATED THE TITLES. 90 00:11:34,026 --> 00:11:40,332 THIS VERY HUMAN TRAIT, ERROR WITH CONFIDENCE, IS CALLED, IN THE INDUSTRY, HALLUCINATION. >> ARE YOU GETTING A LOT OF 91 00:11:40,399 --> 00:11:49,909 HALLUCINATIONS? >> YES, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS EXPECTED. NO ONE IN THE FIELD HAS YET 92 00:11:49,975 --> 00:11:56,315 SOLVED THE HALLUCINATION PROBLEMS. ALL MODELS DO HAVE THIS AS AN ISSUE. 93 00:11:56,382 --> 00:12:02,254 >> IS IT A SOLVABLE PROBLEM? >> IT'S A MATTER OF INTENSE DEBATE. I THINK WE'LL MAKE PROGRESS. 94 00:12:02,321 --> 00:12:09,628 >> TO HELP CURE HALLUCINATIONS, BARD FEATURES A "GOOGLE IT" BUTTON THAT LEADS TO OLD-FASHIONED SEARCH. 95 00:12:09,695 --> 00:12:18,237 GOOGLE HAS ALSO BUILT SAFETY FILTERS INTO BARD TO SCREEN FOR THINGS LIKE HATE SPEECH AND BIAS. 96 00:12:18,304 --> 00:12:27,813 >> HOW GREAT A RISK IS THE SPREAD OF DISINFORMATION? >> AI WILL CHALLENGE THAT IN A DEEPER WAY. 97 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:35,354 TE SCALE OF THIS PROBLEM IS GOING TO BE MUCH BIGGER. >> BIGGER PROBLEMS, HE SAYS, WITH FAKE NEWS AND FAKE IMAGES. 98 00:12:35,421 --> 00:12:44,363 >> IT WILL BE POSSIBLE WITH AI TO CREATE, YOU KNOW, A VIDEO EASILY, WHERE IT COULD BE SCOTT SAYING SOMETHING, OR ME SAYING 99 00:12:44,430 --> 00:12:50,703 SOMETHING, AND WE NEVER SAID THAT, AND IT COULD LOOK ACCURATE. BUT, YOU KNOW, ON A SOCIETAL 100 00:12:50,769 --> 00:12:56,542 SCALE, YOU KNOW, IT CAN CAUSE A LOT OF HARM. >> IS BARD SAFE FOR SOCIETY? >> THE WAY WE HAVE LAUNCHED IT 101 00:12:56,609 --> 00:13:01,947 TODAY, AS AN EXPERIMENT IN A LIMITED WAY, I THINK SO. BUT WE ALL HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE IN EACH STEP ALONG 102 00:13:02,014 --> 00:13:11,524 THE WAY. >> PICHAI TOLD US HE'S BEING RESPONSIBLE BY HOLDING BACK FOR MORE TESTING, ADVANCED VERSIONS 103 00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:18,964 OF BARD, THAT, HE SAYS, CAN REASON, PLAN, AND CONNECT TO INTERNET SEARCH. >> YOU ARE LETTING THIS OUT 104 00:13:19,031 --> 00:13:27,039 SLOWLY SO THAT SOCIETY CAN GET USED TO IT? >> THAT'S ONE PART OF IT. ONE PART IS ALSO SO THAT WE GET 105 00:13:27,106 --> 00:13:34,413 THE USER FEEDBACK. AND WE CAN DEVELOP MORE ROBUST SAFETY LAYERS BEFORE WE BUILD, BEFORE WE DEPLOY MORE CAPABLE 106 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:43,989 MODELS. >> OF THE AI ISSUES WE TALKED ABOUT, THE MOST MYSTERIOUS IS CALLED EMERGENT PROPERTIES. 107 00:13:44,056 --> 00:13:50,930 SOME AI SYSTEMS ARE TEACHING THEMSELVES SKILLS THAT THEY WEREN'T EXPECTED TO HAVE. HOW THIS HAPPENS IS NOT WELL 108 00:13:50,996 --> 00:14:03,209 UNDERSTOOD. FOR EXAMPLE, ONE GOOGLE AI PROGRAM ADAPTED, ON ITS OWN, AFTER IT WAS PROMPTED IN THE 109 00:14:03,275 --> 00:14:11,717 LANGUAGE OF BANGLADESH, WHICH IT WAS NOT TRAINED TO KNOW. >> WE DISCOVERED THAT WITH VERY FEW AMOUNTS OF PROMPTING IN 110 00:14:11,784 --> 00:14:18,224 BENGALI, IT CAN NOW TRANSLATE ALL OF BENGALI. SO NOW, ALL OF A SUDDEN, WE NOW HAVE A SEARCH EFFORT WHERE WE'RE 111 00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:24,029 NOW TRYING TO GET TO A THOUSAND LANGUAGES. >> THERE IS AN ASPECT OF THIS WHICH WE CALL -- ALL OF US IN 112 00:14:24,096 --> 00:14:31,437 THE FIELD CALL IT AS A "BLACK BOX." YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND, AND YOU CAN'T QUITE 113 00:14:31,503 --> 00:14:37,309 TELL US WHY IT SAID THIS OR WHY IT GOT IT WRONG. WE HAVE SOME IDEAS, AND OUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THIS GETS 114 00:14:37,376 --> 00:14:47,786 BETTER OVER TIME. BUT THAT'S WHERE THE STATE OF THE ART IS. >> YOU DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND 115 00:14:47,853 --> 00:14:54,193 HOW IT WORKS. AND, YET, YOU'VE TURNED IT LOOSE ON SOCIETY? >> YEAH. 116 00:14:54,260 --> 00:15:00,032 LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY. I DON'T THINK WE FULLY UNDERSTAND HOW A HUMAN MIND WORKS EITHER. 117 00:15:00,099 --> 00:15:07,873 >> WAS IT FROM THAT BLACK BOX, WE WONDERED, THAT BARD DREW ITS SHORT STORY THAT SEEMED SO DISARMINGLY HUMAN? 118 00:15:07,940 --> 00:15:14,013 IT TALKED ABOUT THE PAIN THAT HUMANS FEEL. IT TALKED ABOUT REDEMPTION. HOW DID IT DO ALL OF THOSE 119 00:15:14,079 --> 00:15:21,520 THINGS IF IT'S JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE NEXT RIGHT WORD IS? >> I HAVE HAD THESE EXPERIENCES 120 00:15:21,587 --> 00:15:28,093 TALKING WITH BARD AS WELL. THERE ARE TWO VIEWS OF THIS. YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A SET OF PEOPLE WHO VIEW THIS AS, "LOOK, 121 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:34,466 THESE ARE JUST ALGORITHMS, THEY'RE JUST REPEATING WHAT IT'S SEEN ONLINE." THEN THERE IS THE VIEW WHERE 122 00:15:34,533 --> 00:15:41,373 THESE ALGORITHMS ARE SHOWING EMERGENT PROPERTIES, TO BE CREATIVE, TO REASON, TO PLAN, AND SO ON, RIGHT? 123 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:47,313 AND PERSONALLY, I THINK WE NEED TO BE -- WE NEED TO APPROACH THIS WITH HUMILITY. PART OF THE REASON I THINK IT'S 124 00:15:47,379 --> 00:15:54,153 GOOD THAT SOME OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES ARE GETTING OUT IS SO THAT SOCIETY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND OTHERS CAN 125 00:15:54,219 --> 00:15:59,458 PROCESS WHAT'S HAPPENING. AND WE BEGIN THIS CONVERSATION AND DEBATE. AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO DO 126 00:15:59,525 --> 00:16:06,465 THAT. >> WHEN WE COME BACK, WE'LL TAKE YOU INSIDE GOOGLE'S ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE LABS WHERE ROBOTS 127 00:16:06,532 --> 00:16:10,069 ARE LEARNING. 128 00:16:18,377 --> 00:16:25,217 >>> THE REVOLUTION IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS THE CENTER OF A DEBATE RANGING FROM THOSE WHO HOPE IT WILL SAVE HUMANITY TO 129 00:16:25,284 --> 00:16:34,226 THOSE WHO PREDICT DOOM. GOOGLE LIES SOMEWHERE IN THE OPTIMISTIC MIDDLE, INTRODUCING AI IN STEPS SO CIVILIZATION CAN 130 00:16:34,293 --> 00:16:46,472 GET USED TO IT. WE SAW WHAT'S COMING NEXT IN MACHINE LEARNING AT GOOGLE'S AI LAB IN LONDON - A COMPANY CALLED 131 00:16:46,538 --> 00:16:53,946 DEEPMIND - WHERE THE FUTURE LOOKS SOMETHING LIKE THIS. LOOK AT THAT! OH, MY GOODNESS. 132 00:16:54,012 --> 00:17:00,352 >> THEY GOT A PRETTY GOOD KICK ON THEM. >> AH! GOAL! A SOCCER MATCH AT DEEPMIND LOOKS 133 00:17:00,419 --> 00:17:08,427 LIKE FUN AND GAMES, BUT HERE'S THE THING. HUMANS DID NOT PROGRAM THESE ROBOTS TO PLAY - THEY LEARNED 134 00:17:08,494 --> 00:17:14,299 THE GAME BY THEMSELVES. >> IT'S COMING UP WITH THESE INTERESTING DIFFERENT STRATEGIES, DIFFERENT WAYS TO 135 00:17:14,366 --> 00:17:22,274 WALK, DIFFERENT WAYS TO BLOCK. >> AND THEY'RE DOING IT, THEY'RE SCORING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. >> RAIA HADSELL, VICE PRESIDENT 136 00:17:22,341 --> 00:17:30,849 OF RESEARCH AND ROBOTICS, SHOWED US HOW ENGINEERS USED MOTION CAPTURE TECHNOLOGY TO TEACH THE AI PROGRAM HOW TO MOVE LIKE A 137 00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:38,824 HUMAN. BUT ON THE SOCCER PITCH, THE ROBOTS WERE TOLD ONLY THAT THE OBJECT WAS TO SCORE. 138 00:17:38,891 --> 00:17:49,435 THE SELF-LEARNING PROGRAM SPENT ABOUT TWO WEEKS TESTING DIFFERENT MOVES. IT DISCARDED THOSE THAT DIDN'T 139 00:17:49,501 --> 00:17:56,708 WORK, BUILT THAT THOSE THAT DID, AND CREATED ALL-STARS. >> THERE'S ANOTHER GOAL! AND WITH PRACTICE, THEY GET 140 00:17:56,775 --> 00:18:03,715 BETTER. HADSELL TOLD US THAT, INDEPENDENT FROM THE ROBOTS, THE AI PROGRAM PLAYS THOUSANDS OF 141 00:18:03,782 --> 00:18:10,088 GAMES FROM WHICH IT LEARNS AND INVENTS ITS OWN TACTICS. >> HERE WE THINK THAT RED PLAYER'S GOING TO GRAB IT. 142 00:18:10,155 --> 00:18:17,563 BUT INSTEAD IT JUST STOPS IT, HANDS IT BACK, PASSES IT BACK, AND THEN GOES FOR THE GOAL. >> AND THE AI FIGURED OUT HOW TO 143 00:18:17,629 --> 00:18:23,969 DO THAT ON ITS OWN. >> THAT'S RIGHT, THAT'S RIGHT. AND IT TAKES A WHILE. AT FIRST ALL THE PLAYERS JUST 144 00:18:24,036 --> 00:18:30,375 RUN AFTER THE BALL TOGETHER LIKE A GAGGLE OF, YOU KNOW, 6-YEAR-OLDS THE FIRST TIME THEY'RE PLAYING BALL. 145 00:18:30,442 --> 00:18:35,681 OVER TIME WHAT WE START TO SEE IS NOW, "AH, WHAT'S THE STRATEGY? YOU GO AFTER THE BALL, I'M 146 00:18:35,747 --> 00:18:50,596 COMING AROUND THIS WAY. OR SHOULD WE PASS, OR I SHOULD BLOCK WHILE YOU GET THE GOAL?" SO, WE SEE ALL OF THAT 147 00:18:50,662 --> 00:18:55,901 COORDINATION EMERGING IN THE PLAY. >> THIS IS A LOT OF FUN. BUT WHAT ARE THE PRACTICAL 148 00:18:55,968 --> 00:19:02,374 IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE? >> THIS IS THE TYPE OF RESEARCH THAT CAN EVENTUALLY LEAD TO 149 00:19:02,441 --> 00:19:08,046 ROBOTS THAT CAN COME OUT OF THE FACTORIES AND WORK IN OTHER TYPES OF HUMAN ENVIRONMENTS. YOU KNOW, THINK ABOUT MINING, 150 00:19:08,113 --> 00:19:14,319 THINK ABOUT DANGEROUS CONSTRUCTION WORK OR EXPLORATION OR DISASTER RECOVERY. >> RAIA HADSELL IS AMONG 1,000 151 00:19:14,386 --> 00:19:22,094 HUMANS AT DEEPMIND. THE COMPANY WAS CO-FOUNDED JUST 12 YEARS AGO BY CEO DEMIS HASSABIS. 152 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,832 >> SO IF I THINK BACK TO 2010 WHEN WE STARTED, NOBODY WAS DOING AI. THERE WAS NOTHING GOING ON IN 153 00:19:26,899 --> 00:19:32,170 INDUSTRY. PEOPLE USED TO EYE ROLL WHEN WE TALKED TO THEM, INVESTORS, ABOUT DOING AI. 154 00:19:32,237 --> 00:19:36,975 SO WE COULDN'T, WE COULD BARELY GET TWO CENTS TOGETHER TO START OFF, WHICH IS CRAZY IF YOU THINK ABOUT NOW THE BILLIONS BEING 155 00:19:37,042 --> 00:19:48,153 INVESTED INTO AI STARTUPS. >> CAMBRIDGE, HARVARD, M.I.T., HASSABIS HAS DEGREES IN COMPUTER SCIENCE AND NEUROSCIENCE. 156 00:19:48,220 --> 00:19:59,431 HIS PhD IS IN HUMAN IMAGINATION. AND, IMAGINE THIS, WHEN HE WAS 12, IN HIS AGE GROUP, HE WAS THE NUMBER TWO CHESS CHAMPION IN THE 157 00:19:59,498 --> 00:20:07,873 WORLD. >> IT WAS THROUGH GAMES THAT HE CAME TO AI. >> I'VE BEEN WORKING ON AI FOR 158 00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:14,212 DECADES NOW, AND I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT IT'S GOING TO BE THE MOST IMPORTANT INVENTION THAT HUMANITY WILL EVER MAKE. 159 00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:21,687 >> WILL THE PACE OF CHANGE OUTSTRIP OUR ABILITY TO ADAPT? >> I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK THAT WE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE 160 00:20:21,753 --> 00:20:26,992 SORT OF AN INFINITELY ADAPTABLE SPECIES. YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT TODAY US USING ALL OF OUR SMARTPHONES AND 161 00:20:27,059 --> 00:20:32,331 OTHER DEVICES, AND WE EFFORTLESSLY SORT OF ADAPT TO THESE NEW TECHNOLOGIES. AND THIS IS GOING TO BE ANOTHER 162 00:20:32,397 --> 00:20:39,271 ONE OF THOSE CHANGES LIKE THAT. >> AMONG THE BIGGEST CHANGES AT DEEPMIND WAS THE DISCOVERY THAT SELF-LEARNING MACHINES CAN BE 163 00:20:39,338 --> 00:20:49,448 CREATIVE. HASSABIS SHOWED US A GAME PLAYING PROGRAM THAT LEARNS. IT'S CALLED ALPHA ZERO, AND IT 164 00:20:49,514 --> 00:20:58,957 DREAMED UP A WINNING CHESS STRATEGY NO HUMAN HAD EVER SEEN. >> BUT THIS IS JUST A MACHINE. HOW DOES IT ACHIEVE CREATIVITY? 165 00:20:59,024 --> 00:21:07,032 >> IT PLAYS AGAINST ITSELF TENS OF MILLIONS OF TIMES. SO, IT CAN EXPLORE PARTS OF CHESS THAT MAYBE HUMAN CHESS 166 00:21:07,099 --> 00:21:11,303 PLAYERS AND PROGRAMMERS WHO PROGRAM CHESS COMPUTERS HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT BEFORE. >> IT NEVER GETS TIRED. 167 00:21:11,370 --> 00:21:17,175 IT NEVER GETS HUNGRY. IT JUST PLAYS CHESS ALL THE TIME. >> YES. 168 00:21:17,242 --> 00:21:21,980 IT'S KIND OF AN AMAZING THING TO SEE, BECAUSE ACTUALLY YOU SET OFF ALPHA ZERO IN THE MORNING AND IT STARTS OFF PLAYING 169 00:21:22,047 --> 00:21:27,285 RANDOMLY. BY LUNCHTIME, YOU KNOW, IT'S ABLE TO BEAT ME AND BEAT MOST CHESS PLAYERS. 170 00:21:27,352 --> 00:21:32,624 AND THEN BY THE EVENING, IT'S STRONGER THAN THE WORLD CHAMPION. >> DEMIS HASSABIS SOLD DEEPMIND 171 00:21:32,691 --> 00:21:39,564 TO GOOGLE IN 2014. ONE REASON WAS TO GET HIS HANDS ON THIS. GOOGLE HAS THE ENORMOUS 172 00:21:39,631 --> 00:21:48,040 COMPUTING POWER THAT AI NEEDS. THIS COMPUTING CENTER IS IN PRYOR, OKLAHOMA. BUT GOOGLE HAS 23 OF THESE, 173 00:21:48,106 --> 00:21:58,617 PUTTING IT NEAR THE TOP IN COMPUTING POWER IN THE WORLD. THIS IS ONE OF TWO ADVANCES THAT MAKE AI ASCENDANT NOW. 174 00:21:58,684 --> 00:22:06,758 FIRST, THE SUM OF ALL HUMAN KNOWLEDGE IS ONLINE AND, SECOND, BRUTE FORCE COMPUTING THAT "VERY LOOSELY APPROXIMATES" THE NEURAL 175 00:22:06,825 --> 00:22:14,232 NETWORKS AND TALENTS OF THE BRAIN. >> THINGS LIKE MEMORY, IMAGINATION, PLANNING, 176 00:22:14,299 --> 00:22:22,207 REINFORCEMENT LEARNING, THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT ARE KNOWN ABOUT HOW THE BRAIN DOES IT, AND WE WANTED TO REPLICATE SOME OF 177 00:22:22,274 --> 00:22:29,681 THAT IN OUR AI SYSTEMS. >> THOSE ARE SOME OF THE ELEMENTS THAT LED TO DEEPMIND'S GREATEST ACHIEVEMENT SO FAR - 178 00:22:29,748 --> 00:22:35,520 SOLVING AN "IMPOSSIBLE" PROBLEM IN BIOLOGY. PROTEINS ARE BUILDING BLOCKS OF LIFE. 179 00:22:35,587 --> 00:22:47,599 BUT ONLY A TINY FRACTION WERE UNDERSTOOD BECAUSE 3D MAPPING OF JUST ONE COULD TAKE YEARS. DEEPMIND CREATED AN AI PROGRAM 180 00:22:47,666 --> 00:22:57,909 FOR THE PROTEIN PROBLEM AND SET IT LOOSE. >> WELL, IT TOOK US ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE YEARS TO FIGURE OUT HOW 181 00:22:57,976 --> 00:23:04,883 TO BUILD THE SYSTEM. IT'S PROBABLY THE MOST COMPLEX PROJECT THAT WE'VE EVER UNDERTAKEN. 182 00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:09,154 BUT ONCE WE DID THAT, IT CAN SOLVE A PROTEIN STRUCTURE IN A MATTER OF SECONDS. AND, ACTUALLY, OVER THE LAST 183 00:23:09,221 --> 00:23:15,093 YEAR, WE DID ALL THE 200 MILLION PROTEINS THAT ARE KNOWN TO SCIENCE. >> HOW LONG WOULD IT HAVE TAKEN 184 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,865 USING TRADITIONAL METHODS? >> WELL, THE RULE OF THUMB I WAS ALWAYS TOLD BY MY BIOLOGIST FRIENDS IS THAT IT TAKES A WHOLE 185 00:23:19,931 --> 00:23:25,103 PhD, FIVE YEARS, TO DO ONE PROTEIN STRUCTURE EXPERIMENTALLY. SO, IF YOU THINK 200 MILLION 186 00:23:25,170 --> 00:23:31,643 TIMES FIVE, THAT'S A BILLION YEARS OF PhD TIME IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN. >> DEEPMIND MADE ITS PROTEIN 187 00:23:31,710 --> 00:23:35,781 DATABASE PUBLIC. "A GIFT TO HUMANITY," HASSABIS CALLED IT. >> HOW HAS IT BEEN USED? 188 00:23:35,847 --> 00:23:43,655 >> IT'S BEEN USED IN AN ENORMOUSLY BROAD NUMBER OF WAYS ACTUALLY FROM MALARIA VACCINES TO DEVELOPING NEW ENZYMES THAT 189 00:23:43,722 --> 00:23:49,628 CAN EAT PLASTIC WASTE TO NEW ANTIBIOTICS. >> MOST AI SYSTEMS TODAY DO ONE OR MAYBE TWO THINGS WELL. 190 00:23:49,694 --> 00:23:56,535 THE SOCCER ROBOTS, FOR EXAMPLE, CAN'T WRITE UP A GROCERY LIST OR BOOK YOUR TRAVEL OR DRIVE YOUR CAR. 191 00:23:56,601 --> 00:24:13,819 THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS WHAT'S CALLED ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE - A LEARNING MACHINE THAT CAN SCORE ON A 192 00:24:13,885 --> 00:24:20,225 WIDE RANGE OF TALENTS. >> WOULD SUCH A MACHINE BE CONSCIOUS OF ITSELF? >> SO THAT'S ANOTHER GREAT 193 00:24:20,292 --> 00:24:25,530 QUESTION. WE -- YOU KNOW, PHILOSOPHERS HAVEN'T REALLY SETTLED ON A DEFINITION OF CONSCIOUSNESS YET, 194 00:24:25,597 --> 00:24:30,335 BUT IF WE MEAN BY SORT OF SELF-AWARENESS AND THESE KINDS OF THINGS, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S A POSSIBILITY AI ONE DAY 195 00:24:30,402 --> 00:24:36,208 COULD BE. I DEFINITELY DON'T THINK THEY ARE TODAY. BUT I THINK, AGAIN, THIS IS ONE 196 00:24:36,274 --> 00:24:41,012 OF THE FASCINATING SCIENTIFIC THINGS WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT O THIS JOURNEY TOWARDS AI. >> EVEN UNCONSCIOUS, CURRENT AI 197 00:24:41,079 --> 00:24:46,318 IS SUPERHUMAN IN NARROW WAYS. BACK IN CALIFORNIA, WE SAW GOOGLE ENGINEERS TEACHING SKILLS THAT ROBOTS WILL PRACTICE 198 00:24:46,384 --> 00:24:53,258 CONTINUOUSLY ON THEIR OWN. >> PUSH THE BLUE CUBE TO THE BLUE TRIANGLE. >> THEY COMPREHEND 199 00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:59,097 INSTRUCTIONS... >> PUSH THE YELLOW HEXAGON TO THE YELLOW HEART. >> AND LEARN TO RECOGNIZE 200 00:24:59,164 --> 00:25:04,502 OBJECTS. >> WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE? >> HOW 'BOUT AN APPLE? >> HOW ABOUT AN APPLE. 201 00:25:04,569 --> 00:25:13,011 >> ON MY WAY, I WILL BRING AN APPLE TO YOU. >> VINCENT VANHOUCKE, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF ROBOTICS, SHOWED US 202 00:25:13,078 --> 00:25:18,350 HOW ROBOT 106 WAS TRAINED ON MILLIONS OF IMAGES... >> I AM GOING TO PICK UP THE APPLE. 203 00:25:18,416 --> 00:25:26,358 ...AND CAN RECOGNIZE ALL THE ITEMS ON A CROWDED COUNTERTOP. >> IF WE CAN GIVE THE ROBOT A DIVERSITY OF EXPERIENCES, A LOT 204 00:25:26,424 --> 00:25:32,731 MORE DIFFERENT OBJECTS IN DIFFERENT SETTINGS, THE ROBOT GETS BETTER AT EVERY ONE OF THEM. 205 00:25:32,797 --> 00:25:41,773 >> NOW THAT HUMANS HAVE PULLED THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT OF ARTIFICIAL KNOWLEDGE... >> THANK YOU. 206 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:48,179 ...WE START THE GENESIS OF A NEW HUMANITY... >> AI CAN UTILIZE ALL THE INFORMATION IN THE WORLD, WHAT 207 00:25:48,246 --> 00:25:56,688 NO HUMAN COULD EVER HOLD IN THEIR HEAD. AND I WONDER IF HUMANITY IS DIMINISHED BY THIS ENORMOUS 208 00:25:56,755 --> 00:26:04,729 CAPABILITY THAT WE'RE DEVELOPING. >> I THINK THE POSSIBILITIES OF AI DO NOT DIMINISH HUMANITY IN 209 00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:12,737 ANY WAY. AND, IN FACT, IN SOME WAYS, I THINK THEY ACTUALLY RAISE US TO EVEN DEEPER, MORE PROFOUND 210 00:26:12,804 --> 00:26:20,145 QUESTIONS. >> GOOGLE'S JAMES MANYIKA SEES THIS MOMENT AS AN INFLEXION POINT. 211 00:26:20,211 --> 00:26:29,754 >> I THINK WE'RE CONSTANTLY ADDING THESE SUPERPOWERS OR CAPABILITIES TO WHAT HUMANS CAN DO IN A WAY THAT EXPANDS 212 00:26:29,821 --> 00:26:35,093 POSSIBILITIES, AS OPPOSED TO NARROW THEM, I THINK. SO I DON'T THINK OF IT AS DIMINISHING HUMANS, BUT IT DOES 213 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,432 RAISE SOME REALLY PROFOUND QUESTIONS FOR US. WHO ARE WE? WHAT DO WE VALUE? 214 00:26:40,498 --> 00:26:45,737 WHAT ARE WE GOOD AT? HOW DO WE RELATE WITH EACH OTHER? THOSE BECOME VERY, VERY 215 00:26:45,804 --> 00:26:52,644 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS THAT ARE CONSTANTLY GOING TO BE, IN ONE CASE, SENSE-EXCITING, BUT PERHAPS UNSETTLING TOO. 216 00:26:52,711 --> 00:27:01,786 >> IT IS AN UNSETTLING MOMENT. CRITICS ARGUE THE RUSH TO AI COMES TOO FAST -- WHILE COMPETITIVE PRESSURE -- AMONG 217 00:27:01,853 --> 00:27:12,330 GIANTS LIKE GOOGLE AND START-UPS YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF, IS PROPELLING HUMANITY INTO THE FUTURE READY OR NOT. 218 00:27:12,397 --> 00:27:19,904 >> BUT I THINK IF WE TAKE A TEN-YEAR OUTLOOK, IT IS SO CLEAR TO ME, WE WILL HAVE SOME FORM OF VERY CAPABLE INTELLIGENCE THAT 219 00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:28,947 CAN DO AMAZING THINGS. AND WE NEED TO ADAPT AS A SOCIETY FOR IT. >> GOOGLE CEO SUNDAR PICHAI TOLD 220 00:27:29,014 --> 00:27:39,057 US SOCIETY MUST QUICKLY ADAPT WITH REGULATIONS FOR AI IN THE ECONOMY, LAWS TO PUNISH ABUSE, AND TREATIES AMONG NATIONS TO 221 00:27:39,124 --> 00:27:45,463 MAKE AI SAFE FOR THE WORLD. >> YOU KNOW, THESE ARE DEEP QUESTIONS. AND, YOU KNOW, WE CALL THIS 222 00:27:45,530 --> 00:27:53,938 "ALIGNMENT." YU KNOW, ONE WAY WE THINK ABOUT HOW DO YOU DEVELOP AI SYSTEMS THAT ARE ALIGNED TO HUMAN VALUES 223 00:27:54,005 --> 00:28:03,615 AND INCLUDING MORALITY? THIS IS WHY I THINK THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS NEEDS TO INCLUDE NOT JUST ENGINEERS BUT 224 00:28:03,681 --> 00:28:11,056 SOCIAL SCIENTISTS, ETHICISTS, PHILOSOPHERS, AND SO ON. AND I THINK WE HAVE TO BE VERY THOUGHTFUL. 225 00:28:11,122 --> 00:28:16,928 AND I THINK THESE ARE ALL THINGS SOCIETY NEEDS TO FIGURE OUT AS WE MOVE ALONG. IT'S NOT FOR A COMPANY TO 226 00:28:16,995 --> 00:28:24,369 DECIDE. >> WE'LL END WITH A NOTE THAT HAS NEVER APPEARED ON "60 MINUTES" BUT ONE, IN THE AI 227 00:28:24,436 --> 00:28:33,144 REVOLUTION, YOU MAY BE HEARING OFTEN. THE PRECEDING WAS CREATED WITH 100% HUMAN CONTENT. 228 00:28:40,085 --> 00:28:47,459 >>> SUNDAR PICHAI EXPLAINS THE EXCLUSION OF GOOGLE'S FOUNDING "DON'T BE EVIL" MOTTO. >> IT'S A LOT MORE OF A NUANCED 229 00:28:47,525 --> 00:29:01,806 VIEW, BUT IT UNDERPINS HOW WE THIN >>> SOME AUTHORS ARE PERFECT MATCHES FOR THEIR SUBJECT 230 00:29:01,873 --> 00:29:07,679 MATTER: JOHN GRISHAM WAS ONCE A TRIAL LAWYER. JOHN LE CARRE WAS ONCE A SPY BY ANOTHER NAME. 231 00:29:07,745 --> 00:29:13,384 THEN, THERE'S DAVID GRANN, WHO HAS EMERGED AS ONE OF THE WORLD'S TOP-SELLING WRITERS - AND DARLING OF HOLLYWOOD 232 00:29:13,451 --> 00:29:18,890 DEVELOPERS - BY VENTURING INTO UNKNOWN WORLDS, ABANDONING HIS COMFORT ZONE. THE UNLIKELY ADVENTURES OF DAVID 233 00:29:18,957 --> 00:29:25,530 GRANN. HIS LATEST BOOK "THE WAGER," TELLS OF BRITISH CASTAWAYS FROM THE 1740s. 234 00:29:25,597 --> 00:29:31,669 IT'S AN OPEN-WATER QUEST THAT BECOMES A SAGA OF SHIPWRECK, ANARCHY, BETRAYAL, AND MURDER. IMAGINE "MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY" 235 00:29:31,736 --> 00:29:40,178 MEETS "LORD OF THE FLIES," EXCEPT EVERY WORD OF IT REALLY HAPPENED. GRANN'S SUCCESS COMES FROM, YES, 236 00:29:40,245 --> 00:29:46,050 METICULOUS REPORTING AND VIVID WRITING BUT ALSO FROM HOW HE PUTS THE PIECES TOGETHER. >> YOU TALK ABOUT STRUCTURING 237 00:29:46,117 --> 00:29:50,288 THESE STORIES AS A PUZZLE. >> YES. >> IS THERE ONLY ONE WAY TO SOLVE THIS PUZZLE? 238 00:29:50,355 --> 00:29:59,297 [ LAUGHTER ] >> WELL, I -- I'M VERY WEIRD ABOUT THIS. I DO ALWAYS THINK THERE IS SOME 239 00:29:59,364 --> 00:30:03,835 KIND OF IDYLLIC FORM OF A STORY, LIKE, SOME, LIKE, PERFECT, PRISTINE, LOST CITY THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO FIND AND GET TO. 240 00:30:03,902 --> 00:30:11,309 >> IF YOU WERE GOING TO STRUCTURE THE DAVID GRANN STORY, WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST? >> OH, GOD. 241 00:30:11,376 --> 00:30:16,381 >> WHERE WOULD WE START? >> OH, GOSH, IN SOME ARCHIVE. LOOKING SEMI-BLIND AT SOME DOCUMENT. 242 00:30:16,447 --> 00:30:21,152 THAT'S WHERE IT ALWAYS BEGINS. >> WE CAN WORK WITH THAT... WE FIND OUR SUBJECT INSIDE THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN THE SUBURBS 243 00:30:21,219 --> 00:30:29,160 OF LONDON...UNBOXING DUSTY FILES, CONSULTING DOCUMENTS SO FRAIL THEY REQUIRE A PILLOW FOR SUPPORT. 244 00:30:29,227 --> 00:30:32,897 GRANN SPENT TWO YEARS PLAYING DETECTIVE, GATHERING FACTS, SOURCE MATERIAL FOR HIS LATEST BOOK. 245 00:30:32,964 --> 00:30:39,804 >> WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TOUCH THIS REALLY CAREFULLY. >> HE TOOK US TUMBLING BACK IN TIME TO THE 18th CENTURY. 246 00:30:39,871 --> 00:30:46,744 >> YOU SEE THAT? >> COMMUNING WITH LOGBOOKS, MUSTER BOOKS, AND DIARIES FROM THE EXPEDITION OF THE HMS WAGER, 247 00:30:46,811 --> 00:30:51,516 THE WARSHIP FEATURED IN HIS BOOK. >> AND HERE YOU SEE THE LITTLE INITIALS NEXT TO THEIR NAMES 248 00:30:51,583 --> 00:30:57,388 HERE. YOU'LL SEE LIEUTENANT. YOU'LL SEE "AB" MEANS ABLE SEAMAN. 249 00:30:57,455 --> 00:31:02,260 >> HOW ARE YOU DECIPHERING THIS? >> WHEN I FIRST LOOKED AT A LOT OF THESE BOOKS, IT WAS LIKE READING GIBBERISH. 250 00:31:02,327 --> 00:31:11,102 [ LAUGHTER ] I WAS, LIKE, WHAT IS THIS TELLING ME? AND SO I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT 251 00:31:11,169 --> 00:31:17,475 IT AGAIN, LOOK AT IT AGAIN, START TO FIGURE OUT THE CODES, THE LANGUAGE THEY USED. BUT ONCE YOU DO, THESE DOCUMENTS 252 00:31:17,542 --> 00:31:20,712 SPEAK VOLUMES. >> ALL THESE NAMES AND SYMBOLS TOLD A LARGER STORY. WITH THEIR EMPIRES AT WAR, A 253 00:31:20,778 --> 00:31:27,085 BRITISH SQUADRON OF ROUGHLY 2,000 MEN SET OUT TO CAPTURE A SPANISH GALLEON FILLED WITH TREASURE OFF THE PHILIPPINES. 254 00:31:27,151 --> 00:31:35,026 THAT MEANT ROUNDING CAPE HORN, NEGOTIATING SOME OF THE WORLD'S MOST TREACHEROUS WATERS AND WINDS. 255 00:31:35,093 --> 00:31:39,831 BUT ONE OF THE SHIPS IN THE SQUADRON LOST ITS WAY JUST OFF THE COAST OF PATAGONIA. GRANN SHOWED US ON HIS OWN MAP 256 00:31:39,897 --> 00:31:44,235 WHERE THE WAGER GOT INTO TROUBLE, A PLACE APTLY NAMED. >> THE GULF OF PAIN. >> THEY'RE BARRELLING INTO THE 257 00:31:44,302 --> 00:31:51,376 GULF OF PAIN. AS THEY'RE COMING AROUND, THEY'RE DESPERATELY, FRANTICALLY TRYING TO AVOID THIS LAND. 258 00:31:51,442 --> 00:31:57,949 >> THE WAGER CAREENED INTO ROCKS, RIPPING APART. 145 CASTAWAYS, MANY SICK FROM SCURVY, SWAM TO THE NEAREST 259 00:31:58,016 --> 00:32:04,389 ISLAND. YOU'D THINK THE NAME ALONE, THE GULF OF PAIN, WOULD DISCOURAGE VISITORS, ESPECIALLY ONE 260 00:32:04,455 --> 00:32:14,532 BESPECTACLED 56-YEAR-OLD MAN WHO ADMITS HE HATES CAMPING. >> I SPENT THE FIRST TWO YEARS DOING RESEARCH IN A WAY VERY 261 00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:23,174 SUITED TO MY PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES, WHICH IS IN ARCHIVES. >> YOU'RE INDOORS. 262 00:32:23,241 --> 00:32:27,445 >> YES -- [ LAUGHTER ] -- INDOORS. BUT THERE CAME A POINT WHERE I 263 00:32:27,512 --> 00:32:32,317 BEGAN TO FEAR THAT I COULD NEVER FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE 150 OR SO MEN HAD GONE THROUGH ON THAT ISLAND UNLESS I WENT. 264 00:32:32,383 --> 00:32:37,555 THERE'S ALWAYS A MOMENT WHERE SOMETHING GNAWS AT YOU, SOMETHING UNKNOWN. AND SO IT WAS THEN THAT I 265 00:32:37,622 --> 00:32:42,860 DECIDED TO TRY TO MAKE THIS TRIP. >> SO IN 2019, GRANN FLEW TO CHILE AND CHARTERED A 52-FOOT 266 00:32:42,927 --> 00:32:48,733 VESSEL. >> THE BOAT LOOKED, YOU KNOW, IT LOOKED PRETTY BIG. I THOUGHT, THIS IS GOOD. 267 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:54,072 THIS IS GOING TO BE -- IT'S GOING TO BE, LIKE, A JACQUES COUSTEAU EXPEDITION. WE'RE GOING TO BE FINE. 268 00:32:54,138 --> 00:32:59,444 WE KIND OF STAY ORIGINALLY THROUGH THESE CHANNELS THAT ARE SHELTERED - IN PATAGONIA. I THINK, IT'S PERFECT, IT'S 269 00:32:59,510 --> 00:33:07,885 BEAUTIFUL, IT'S A LITTLE COLD, IT'S WINTER, BUT IT'S BEAUTIFUL. AND THEN THERE'S SORT OF A POINT WHERE THE CAPTAIN SAYS TO ME, 270 00:33:07,952 --> 00:33:12,657 "ALL RIGHT, NOW WE GOT TO GO OUT INTO THE OPEN SEA IF WE'RE GOING TO GET TO WAGER ISLAND." AND THAT WAS MY FIRST GLIMPSE OF 271 00:33:12,724 --> 00:33:18,329 THESE TERRIFYING SEAS. >> ROUGH SEAS. >> IT WAS TRULY TERRIFYING, OR AT LEAST FOR ME. 272 00:33:18,396 --> 00:33:22,767 [ LAUGHTER ] LET ME SAY, MY CAPTAIN SEEMED COOL. [ LAUGHTER ] 273 00:33:22,834 --> 00:33:29,640 >> GRANN AND HIS CREW ENDURED THE MOODY WATERS OVER A TEN-DAY JOURNEY. >> I HAD TO SIT ON THE FLOOR 274 00:33:29,707 --> 00:33:32,877 HUNKERED DOWN. THE DRAMAMINE WAS PUMPING IN ME. >> THIS IS WAGER ISLAND, NAMED FOR THE SHIP THAT WASHED UP 300 275 00:33:32,944 --> 00:33:38,316 YEARS AGO. A SPIT OF INHOSPITABLE LAND, HUGGING THE PACIFIC COAST. SCENIC FROM A DISTANCE BUT YOU 276 00:33:38,383 --> 00:33:43,087 WOULDN'T WANT TO SPEND THE NIGHT. THE CASTAWAYS DID MONTHS IN UNRELENTING COLD AND WHIPPING 277 00:33:43,154 --> 00:33:51,496 WINDS. YOU KNOW IT'S BAD WHEN CELERY IS THE BIG SELLING POINT, THE ONLY EDIBLE THING THAT GROWS ON THE 278 00:33:51,562 --> 00:33:56,801 ISLAND. THOUGH IT DOES CURE SCURVY. >> THERE WERE NO ANIMALS. I KEPT THINKING, "OH, THERE'S 279 00:33:56,868 --> 00:34:02,206 GOT TO BE SOMETHING. LIKE, SOMETHING. THERE'S GOT TO BE A RAT." BUT WE COULDN'T FIND ANYTHING. 280 00:34:02,273 --> 00:34:07,111 >> THIS DEPTH OF DETAIL, IT'S GRANN'S EARMARK. HE'S CREATED HIS OWN SUBGENRE OF NARRATIVE NONFICTION - KEEPING 281 00:34:07,178 --> 00:34:11,816 READERS HANGING WITH A PAGE-TURNING MIX OF HISTORY, JOURNALISM, AND TRUE CRIME. BUT IT'S ALSO LITERARY 282 00:34:11,883 --> 00:34:16,587 POINILLISM. YOU STEP BACK AND GLIMPSE A LARGER TABLEAU, ONE WITH BROADER THEMES. 283 00:34:16,654 --> 00:34:21,893 >> THIS FASCINATES YOU? >> OH, YEAH, YEAH. WELL, YOU SEE, I MEAN, ON THIS ISLAND YOU SEE EVERYTHING 284 00:34:21,959 --> 00:34:26,164 PLAYING OUT. YOU SEE QUESTIONS OF LEADERSHIP PLAYING OUT. YOU SEE QUESTIONS OF LOYALTY 285 00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:31,469 PLAYING OUT, QUESTIONS OF DUTY PLAYING OUT. YOU SEE HUMAN NATURE BEING PEELED BACK. 286 00:34:31,536 --> 00:34:39,644 ALL THAT IS TAKING PLACE IN THIS LITTLE TEMPEST. >> AND THIS WAS NO ONE-OFF. FOR HIS FIRST BOOK, 2009'S "THE 287 00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:45,316 LOST CITY OF Z," A NUMBER-ONE BESTSELLER TURNED INTO A FEATURE FILM... >> EVERYONE OUT OF THE BOAT. 288 00:34:45,383 --> 00:34:51,189 >> GRANN TREKKED THROUGH THE AMAZON - TO A PLACE KNOWN AS THE GREEN HELL - FOLLOWING THE TRAIL OF A BRITISH EXPLORER, PERCY 289 00:34:51,255 --> 00:34:56,494 FAWCETT. >> DID I HEAR YOU RIGHT, YOU TOOK OUT SUPPLEMENTAL LIFE INSURANCE? 290 00:34:56,561 --> 00:35:00,765 >> YES, I DID. I MADE SURE I GOT EXTRA TRAVEL INSURANCE. I HAD A LITTLE CHILD AT THE 291 00:35:00,832 --> 00:35:05,603 TIME. THERE IS SOMETHING -- AND I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT, AND IT'S NOT SOMETHING I REALLY LIKE 292 00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:09,874 TO TALK ABOUT -- BUT THERE IS SOMETHING SELFISH ABOUT THESE JOURNEYS AND EVEN SOMETHING ABOUT THE PEOPLE I WRITE ABOUT 293 00:35:09,941 --> 00:35:15,213 BECAUSE MANY OF THEM DIE ON THESE EXPEDITIONS. >> GRANN'S SWASHBUCKLING TAKES ON AN ADDED DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY 294 00:35:15,279 --> 00:35:20,017 ON ACCOUNT OF A DEGENERATIVE EYE CONDITION HE'S HAD SINCE HIS 20s. >> WHAT'S THE IMPACT OF THAT ON 295 00:35:20,084 --> 00:35:25,323 YOUR WORK? >> I MEAN, IT'S TERRIBLE WHEN YOU'RE ON AN EXPEDITION. LIKE, YOU'RE, LIKE, CAN'T SEE AT 296 00:35:25,389 --> 00:35:31,162 NIGHT, AND YOU'RE STUMBLING, GETTING LOST, OR YOU'RE FALLING, OR YOU'RE ON A BOAT, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. 297 00:35:31,229 --> 00:35:36,501 BUT BECAUSE I KNOW I HAVE THIS WEAKNESS, I'M VERY ACUTELY OBSERVING AS MUCH AS I CAN. AND, IN SOME WAYS, MAYBE PAYING 298 00:35:36,567 --> 00:35:42,907 MORE OBSERVATION THAN IF I COULD JUST TAKE IT IN SO EASILY. >> GRANN FIRST PUT THOSE POWERS OF OBSERVATION TO WORK AS A 299 00:35:42,974 --> 00:35:50,548 REPORTER ON CAPITOL HILL. BUT, TIRED OF WASHINGTON SPIN, HE WANTED TO WRITE REAL STORIES. IN 2003, HE JOINED "THE NEW 300 00:35:50,615 --> 00:35:58,689 YORKER" MAGAZINE. IN ONE ISSUE, HE MIGHT WRITE ABOUT AN ECCENTRIC GIANT SQUID HUNTER IN NEW ZEALAND. 301 00:35:58,756 --> 00:36:06,197 IN ANOTHER, A BOTCHED DEATH PENALTY CONVICTION IN TEXAS. ALL OF IT PREDICATED ON EXHAUSTIVE RESEARCH... 302 00:36:06,264 --> 00:36:10,468 >> PLEASE DON'T JUDGE ME. [ LAUGHTER ] >> FROM HIS OFFICE - ITSELF AN INHOSPITABLE ISLAND OF SORTS - 303 00:36:10,535 --> 00:36:17,341 >> WOW... AT HIS HOME IN A SUBURB OF NEW YORK, GRANN SHOWED US A PILE OF RESEARCH FROM HIS 2017 BOOK 304 00:36:17,408 --> 00:36:21,646 "KILLERS OF THE FLOWER MOON." THE BOOK CENTERED ON THE MYSTERIOUS DEATHS AMONG MEMBERS OF THE OIL-RICH OSAGE NATION IN 305 00:36:21,712 --> 00:36:28,019 1920s OKLAHOMA. AND - BOXED UP IN AN ARCHIVE, WHERE ELSE? - GRANN FOUND A SMOKING GUN, EVIDENCE OF A 306 00:36:28,085 --> 00:36:32,857 SYSTEMIC MURDER CAMPAIGN BY OUTSIDERS. >> THIS WAS SECRET GRAND JURY TESTIMONY. 307 00:36:32,924 --> 00:36:38,796 AND IT WAS UNMARKED. I MEAN, IT WAS A PUBLIC RECORD, BUT I WAS, LIKE, "IS THIS SUPPOSED TO BE -- AM I ALLOWED 308 00:36:38,863 --> 00:36:43,467 TO LOOK AT THIS?" [ LAUGHTER ] >> THE BOOK SOLD NEARLY 2 MILLION COPIES, AND IT IGNITED A 309 00:36:43,534 --> 00:36:48,272 HOLLYWOOD AUCTION. THE WINNING BID, $5 MILLION. THE FILM, DIRECTED BY MARTIN SCORSESE, STARRING LEONARDO 310 00:36:48,339 --> 00:36:55,680 DiCAPRIO, PREMIERES AT CANNES NEXT MONTH. PARAMOUNT, PARENT COMPANY OF CBS, IS A DISTRIBUTOR. 311 00:36:55,746 --> 00:36:59,984 IT'S NOT LOST ON GRANN THAT STORIES BIRTHED IN DECIDEDLY UNGLAMOROUS ARCHIVES, END UP ON RED CARPETS IN THE FRENCH 312 00:37:00,051 --> 00:37:06,457 RIVIERA. "THE WAGER," OUT THIS WEEK, HAS ALSO BEEN OPTIONED FOR FILM. IT WOULD BE GRANN'S SIXTH STORY 313 00:37:06,524 --> 00:37:12,330 TO HIT THE BIG SCREEN. >> DO YOU WORRY WHAT HOLLYWOOD'S GOING TO DO TO YOUR WORK? >> YES. 314 00:37:12,396 --> 00:37:23,474 YEAH, YOU ALWAYS WORRY. THE TRUTH IS YOU DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH CONTROL WHEN HOLLYWOOD DEVELOPS YOUR WORK. 315 00:37:23,541 --> 00:37:27,778 >> WHAT IS YOUR ROLE ONCE ONE OF YOUR BOOKS GETS PUT INTO DEVELOPMENT? >> MAYBE A CERTAIN ACTOR WILL 316 00:37:27,845 --> 00:37:32,717 WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE PERSON THEY'RE PLAYING. >> ONE OF THE STARS WILL CALL YOU AND SAY, "TELL ME MORE"? 317 00:37:32,783 --> 00:37:37,321 >> YEAH. >> WHAT'S AN EXAMPLE? >> OH, I'LL -- I'LL RESPECT PRIVACY, BUT THE -- BUT, YOU 318 00:37:37,388 --> 00:37:42,126 KNOW, OCCASIONALLY, SOME PEOPLE WILL -- WILL REACH OUT TO YOU, BUT -- >> YOU DO NOT SEEM PARTICULARLY 319 00:37:42,193 --> 00:37:48,032 COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT -- >> -- THE HOLLYWOOD ANGLE TO THIS. >> YOUR POSTURE HAS CHANGED, 320 00:37:48,099 --> 00:37:53,838 YOU'RE -- >> NO...NO...YEAH, I DON'T LIKE IT. [ LAUGHTER ] 321 00:37:53,904 --> 00:37:57,608 I DON'T LIKE IT. I'D -- BECAUSE -- YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT WORLD, YOU KNOW. 322 00:37:57,675 --> 00:38:03,414 IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT WORLD. >> THIS IS PORTSMOUTH. >> GRANN FEELS MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE TRANSPORTING HIMSELF 323 00:38:03,481 --> 00:38:08,786 THREE CENTURIES BACK TO THIS WORLD...THE WAGER SET SAIL HERE IN THE BRITISH HARBOR TOWN OF PORTSMOUTH. 324 00:38:08,853 --> 00:38:13,658 THE ENTIRE EXPEDITION MAY HAVE FADED FROM MEMORY. BUT GRANN BEING GRANN, HE SAW REFERENCES EVERYWHERE. 325 00:38:13,724 --> 00:38:17,995 >> ANSON'S NAME IS STILL REMEMBERED, AND ON THIS PUB... >> WE VISITED THE SHIP ANSON, A PUB NAKED FOR THE SQUADRON'S 326 00:38:18,062 --> 00:38:22,667 LEADER, GEORGE ANSON. HERE, MEN WERE ROUNDED UP BY THE BRITISH NAVY AND PRESSED INTO SERVICE ON THE WAGER'S DOOMED 327 00:38:22,733 --> 00:38:27,471 MISSION. >> YOU COULD BE DRINKING, YOU KNOW, HAVE -- HAVING A BEER, ENJOYING YOURSELF. 328 00:38:27,538 --> 00:38:34,879 >> THE NEXT MINUTE YOU KNOW -- >> -- THROW YOU ON A SHIP -- >> -- YOU'RE BEING PUT ON A LITTLE BOAT THAT WAS LIKE A 329 00:38:34,945 --> 00:38:40,785 FLOATING JAIL. THEY WOULD TAKE YOU OUT TO THE SHIP. AND IT'S WHAT MADE CREATING 330 00:38:40,851 --> 00:38:45,556 UNITY AND COHESION ON THE -- ON THIS EXPEDITION PARTICULARLY CHALLENGING. >> A FEW HUNDRED YARDS FROM THE 331 00:38:45,623 --> 00:38:50,428 PUB, WE BOARDED THE HMS VICTORY, AN 18th CENTURY WARSHIP PRESERVED IN THE HARBOR, VIRTUALLY THE SAME MODEL OF SHIP 332 00:38:50,494 --> 00:38:55,132 AS THE WAGER - A THOUSAND TONS OF OAK AND ROPE, WHERE THE CREW ATE AND SLEPT NEXT TO CANNONS. >> AND AFTER IT WAS FIRED, YOU'D 333 00:38:55,199 --> 00:39:00,438 HAVE THIS HUGE FORCE FLYING BACK. AND YOU BETTER GET OUT OF THE WAY. 334 00:39:00,504 --> 00:39:05,309 >> HAVING IMMERSED HIMSELF IN WHAT HE CALLS THE WOODEN WORLD, GRANN GOT TO THE POINT HE COULD RENDER A DESCRIPTION LIKE 335 00:39:05,376 --> 00:39:11,682 THIS... >> AT ONE POINT IT WAS SO WINDY AND THE GUSTS WERE SO STRONG, THEY COULDN'T FLY THEIR SAILS. 336 00:39:11,749 --> 00:39:18,089 SO THE CAPTAIN ORDERS THE MEN TO CLIMB THE MAST AND TO USE THEIR BODIES AS THREADBARE SAILS. SO THEY ARE ON TOP OF THE MAST, 337 00:39:18,155 --> 00:39:22,893 SOME OF THEM 100 FEET IN THE AIR, IN A TYPHOON. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MASTS ARE GOING LIKE THIS. 338 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:28,199 THEY'RE ALMOST TOUCHING THE WATER. AND THESE MEN ARE CLINGING LIKE SPIDERS. 339 00:39:28,265 --> 00:39:36,707 >> WOW... >> AS GRANN BREATHES FRESH LIFE INTO EVENTS FROM HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO, YOU ALMOST WONDER IF 340 00:39:36,774 --> 00:39:41,512 HE HAD CLIMBED THE MAST HIMSELF. HE'S THE FIRST TO ADMIT, YEAH, THAT WOULDN'T BE THE CASE... >> I AM NOT AN EXPLORER. 341 00:39:41,579 --> 00:39:46,250 LIKE, IF YOU COMPARE, I MEAN, WHEN I LOOK AT THESE PEOPLE, I MEAN, I WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO DIE ON THE ISLAND. 342 00:39:46,317 --> 00:39:50,521 LET'S BE PERFECTLY HONEST. >> IF WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS OUT, WHAT'S THE -- WHAT'S THE CAUSE OF DEATH? 343 00:39:50,588 --> 00:39:55,826 >> OH, MY CAUSE OF DEATH, TERROR. [ LAUGHTER ] I WOULD'VE TAKEN ONE LOOK AT 344 00:39:55,893 --> 00:40:04,401 THOSE SEAS AND BE, LIKE, "I'M OUTTA HERE, THIS IS NUTS." SO, YOU KNOW, I WOULD NEVER HAVE ENDURED ANYTHING THAT THESE 345 00:40:04,468 --> 00:40:09,707 PEOPLE ENDURED. BUT MY OWN QUESTS DO SOMETIMES GET ME IN PLACES AND TO DO THINGS I OTHERWISE WOULD NEVER 346 00:40:09,774 --> 00:40:15,546 DO IN MY ORDINARY LIFE. YOU WOULD NEVER CATCH ME GOING TO WAGER ISLAND IN A LITTLE BOAT. 347 00:40:15,613 --> 00:40:21,418 >> ABOUT WAGER ISLAND...MAROONED AND STARVING, THE CASTAWAYS SPLIT INTO FACTIONS, INCLUDING A GROUP INTENT ON OVERTHROWING THE 348 00:40:21,485 --> 00:40:29,393 CAPTAIN. AN ACT OF MUTINY, PUNISHABLE BY DEATH, WHEN TWO GROUPS OF CASTAWAYS MADE IT HOME -- WE 349 00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:36,867 WON'T SPOIL HOW -- THEY HAD CONFLICTING ACCOUNTS OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED. >> YOU KNOW, IMAGINE THIS, THEY 350 00:40:36,934 --> 00:40:45,409 GET BACK TO ENGLAND, THEY HAVE SURVIVED SCURVY, MULTIPLE TYPHOONS, STARVATION, SHIPWRECK. AND NOW AFTER ALL THAT, THEY'RE 351 00:40:45,476 --> 00:40:50,714 SUMMONED TO FACE A COURT MARTIAL, AND THEY COULD BE HANGED. I MEAN, IT'S JUST KIND OF 352 00:40:50,781 --> 00:40:56,554 UNBELIEVABLE. >> UNBELIEVABLE AND COMPLICATED. GRANN SOLVED THE PUZZLE OF STRUCTURING "THE WAGER" BY 353 00:40:56,620 --> 00:41:03,027 TELLING THIS TALE ON THE HIGH SEAS FROM THREE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, ALLOWING READERS TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHERE 354 00:41:03,093 --> 00:41:09,433 THE TRUTH RESIDES. AND IF HE FIXATED ON THE PERFECT WAY TO LET THE BOOK UNFOLD -- DEVOTED TO HIS OWN QUEST AS HIS 355 00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:15,806 CHARACTERS ARE TO THEIRS -- THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT CLASSIC GRANN. >> WHAT IS YOUR OBSESSION WITH 356 00:41:15,873 --> 00:41:23,280 OBSESSION? >> YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS THOUGHT FOR A LONG TIME THAT MY FASCINATION WITH OBSESSED PEOPLE 357 00:41:23,347 --> 00:41:29,119 WAS BECAUSE THEY MADE THE BEST STORIES, RIGHT? I MEAN, THE AHABS OF THE WORLD, THERE'S A REASON WHY WE TELL 358 00:41:29,186 --> 00:41:35,025 AHAB STORIES, RIGHT? OVER TIME, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEGUN TO REALIZE THAT I MIGHT HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE IN COMMON WITH 359 00:41:35,092 --> 00:41:39,730 SOME OF THESE OBSESSIVES THAN I CARE TO ADMIT. >> YOU CALL IT YOUR FASCINATION WITH OBSESSION, SO THEY'RE 360 00:41:39,797 --> 00:41:44,001 OBSESSED. YOU'RE MERELY FASCINATED. >> THAT'S WHAT I LIKE TO THINK, YES. 361 00:41:44,068 --> 00:41:49,874 I'M JUST MERELY -- [ LAUGHTER ] -- I AM COMPLETELY DISPASSIONATE. 362 00:41:49,940 --> 00:41:56,347 BUT YOU KNOW THE TRUTH IS THAT I DON'T THINK YOU CAN REALLY BE A WRITER AND A RESEARCHER AND AN INVESTIGATOR UNLESS YOU ARE AT 363 00:41:56,413 --> 00:41:58,916 SOME LEVEL OBSESSED. 364 00:42:09,693 --> 00:42:15,499 >>> NOW "THE LAST MINUTE" OF "60 MINUTES." >> IN THE MAIL: COMMENTS ON LAST SUNDAY'S BROADCAST. 365 00:42:15,566 --> 00:42:21,872 "THE ORIGIN OF EVERYTHING" SHOWED SOME OF THE STUNNING IMAGES CAPTURED BY THE WEBB SPACE TELESCOPE. 366 00:42:21,939 --> 00:42:29,346 "THE RESURRECTION OF NOTRE DAME" CHRONICLED THE RECONSTRUCTION OF PARIS' FIRE-DAMAGED MEDIEVAL CATHEDRAL. 367 00:42:29,413 --> 00:42:36,820 >> WHAT WAS MOST STRIKING WAS THE ENTHUSIASM AND INSPIRING "TAKE" SHOWN BY THE WEBB SCIENTISTS AS WELL AS THE 368 00:42:36,887 --> 00:42:46,897 DEVOTED PEOPLE INVOLVED WITH RESTORING NOTRE DAME. THEY EXEMPLIFY THE BEST OF OUR HUMAN SPECIES. 369 00:42:46,964 --> 00:42:54,838 BUT ONE VIEWER'S INSPIRATION IS ANOTHER VIEWER'S APOSTASY. HOW DISGUSTING TO SEE A "60 MINUTES" SEGMENT ON THE BIG BANG 370 00:42:54,905 --> 00:43:02,313 THEORY ON EASTER. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH ANOTHER EDITION OF "60 MINUTES".