>>> JOHN EASTMAN SAYS HE'S INNOCENT, AND HE TOLD US IF HE WAS EVER GUILTY OF ANYTHING, IT WAS GIVING BOLD LEGAL ADVICE TO
DONALD TRUMP. HE WAS AMONG THE ARCHITECTS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BID TO STAY IN POWER.
ONE JUDGE CALLED EASTMAN'S STRATEGY A COUP IN SEARCH OF A LEGAL THEORY. >> YOU SAID 2,500 CONVICTS, THE
INVESTIGATION FOUND FOUR. YOU SAID 10,000 DEAD VOTERS. THE INVESTIGATION FOUND FOUR. IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE YOU KNEW
WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT. >>> LAST YEAR, NEARLY 1 MILLION AMERICANS, LIKE STEVEN AND BECKY SWORD, RECEIVED A LETTER FROM
THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION SAYING THAT DUE TO A GOVERNMENT MISCALCULATION, THEY OWED SOCIAL SECURITY MONEY,
A LOT OF MONEY. IN THEIR CASE $51,887. THE SWORDS WERE ASKED TO REPAY IT WITHIN 30 DAYS.
>> ARE YOU SCARED? >> HE'S THINKING WE'RE GOING TO LOSE OUR HOUSE. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO?
I MEAN, WE WERE VERY SCARED. >>> THERE ARE ROUGHLY 1,800 MONKEYS ON CAYO SANTIAGO. THEY LIVE IN ISOLATION IN WHAT
IS A NATURAL LABORATORY. TODAY SCIENTISTS ARE STUDYING HOW THE STRESS OF A DEVASTATING HURRICANE AFFECTED THEIR OVERALL
HEALTH AND RELATIONSHIPS AND WHAT THAT MIGHT TEACH US ABOUT OURSELVES, SINCE WE SHARE 94% OF OUR DNA WITH THEM.
>>> I'M LESLEY STAHL. >> I'M BILL WHITAKER. >> I'M ANDERSON COOPER. >> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI.
>> AND I'M CECELIA VEGA. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES AND IN OUR LAST MINUTE, AN UPDATE ON THE WAR IN
THE MIDDLE EAST. TONIGHT ON "60 MINUTES." >>> JOHN EASTMAN SAYS HE'S INNOCENT, AND HE TOLD US, IF HE
WAS EVER GUILTY OF ANYTHING, IT WAS GIVING BOLD LEGAL ADVICE TO DONALD TRUMP. EASTMAN WAS A LITTLE-KNOWN LAW
PROFESSOR, WHO FOUND HIMSELF AT THE CENTER OF HISTORY. AMONG THE ARCHITECTS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BID TO STAY IN
POWER. ONE JUDGE CALLED EASTMAN'S STRATEGY A COUP IN SEARCH OF A LEGAL THEORY.
TODAY, EASTMAN FACES NINE CRIMINAL COUNTS IN GEORGIA'S ELECTION CONSPIRACY CASE. AND WE FOUND HE'S STILL HANDING
OUT BOLD LEGAL ADVICE, THIS TIME TO HIMSELF. FACING POSSIBLE YEARS IN PRISON, HE AGREED TO TALK WITH US.
>> THAT WAS THE FIRST ADVICE I GOT FROM MY LEGAL TEAM WHEN I PUT THEM TOGETHER IS THAT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT ANYTHING.
IN NORMAL TIMES, THAT'S THE RIGHT ADVICE FOR LAWYERS TO GIVE THEIR CRIMINAL DEFENDANT CLIENTS.
BUT I QUICKLY DETERMINED THAT THIS FIGHT WAS MUCH MORE ABOUT THE CRIMINAL LAW, THE SPECIFIC LAW, AND A PUBLIC FIGHT.
WE DID NOTHING WRONG. AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO COUNTERACT THE FALSE NARRATIVES ON THAT BECAUSE ALL OF MY ACTIONS WERE
DESIGNED TO INVESTIGATE ILLEGALITY IN THE ELECTION TO SEE IF THEY HAD AN IMPACT. >> 63-YEAR-OLD JOHN EASTMAN
GRADUATED FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO LAW SCHOOL, CLERKED FOR SUPREME COURT JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS, AND WAS DEAN OF CHAPMAN
UNIVERSITY'S LAW SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA. HE VIEWS THE WORLD FROM THE FAR RIGHT AND HAS SAID THE POLITICAL
LEFT IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT. >> WE'RE NO LONGER DISAGREEING ABOUT MEMANS TO GET TO SHARED ENDS.
WE'VE GOT WINGS OF THE TWO PARTIES THAT DISAGREE FUNDAMENTALLY ON THE ENDS AND THE PURPOSE OF OUR GOVERNMENT.
>> EXISTENTIAL, YOU SAID? >> WELL, I DO THINK EXISTENTIAL. I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW AND THE CRIMINALIZATION OF
POLITICAL OPPOSITION AND THE THREAT TO SHUTTING DOWN SPEECH OF OPPOSING POLITICAL VIEWS, MEANS THAT THE PEOPLE ARE NO
LONGER IN CHARGE OF THE DIRECTION OF THEIR GOVERNMENT. >> IN NOVEMBER 2020, EASTMAN JOINED RUDY GIULIANI'S EFFORT TO
PERSUADE SEVEN STATES TO WITHHOLD CERTIFICATION OF JOE BIDEN'S VICTORY. >> THERE'S A PLETHORA OF
EVIDENCE THAT YOU CAN GO THROUGH THAT WILL CONVINCE YOU THAT THIS ELECTION WAS STOLEN. >> MY NAME IS JOHN EASTMAN.
>> EASTMAN TESTIFIED ON ZOOM TO LAWMAKERS IN GEORGIA. HE SAID, STATE ELECTION OFFICIALS HADN'T FOLLOWED THE
LAW, AND HE LEVELLED DUBIOUS CLAIMS OF FRAUD, INCLUDING VOTES BY 2,500 FELONS AND 10,000 DEAD PEOPLE.
>> SOMETHING IS AMISS HERE. AND THE LEGISLATURE SIMPLY MUST INVESTIGATE, AS YOU'RE DOING WITH THIS HEARING TODAY.
>> BUT NOT ONE STATE AGREED TO WITHHOLD CERTIFICATION OF ITS VOTE. 50 TRUMP LAWSUITS WERE FAILING.
BY JANUARY, THE DEADLINE WAS AT HAND. ON JANUARY 6th, ELECTORAL VOTES FROM THE STATES ARE COUNTED
BEFORE A JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS. THE CONSTITUTION APPOINTS THE VICE PRESIDENT TO OPEN ALL THE
CERTIFICATES, AND THE VOTES SHALL THEN BE COUNTED. BUT TWO DAYS BEFORE THE COUNT, EASTMAN CAME TO THIS OVAL OFFICE
MEETING WITH A RADICAL INTERPRETATION OF THOSE WORDS. VICE PRESIDENT PENCE, HE SAID, HAD THE POWER TO STOP THE COUNT
AND RETURN THE VOTES TO THE STATES FOR RECONSIDERATION. >> TO DELAY, TO LET THEM FINISH THEIR INVESTIGATIVE WORK AND
MAKE A DETERMINATION ON WHETHER THE ILLEGALITY HAD AFFECTED THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION. AND IF IT DIDN'T, TO REPORT BACK
SO THAT WE COULD HAVE SOME MORE CERTAINTY ABOUT THE VALIDITY OF THE BIDEN ELECTORS. BUT IF IT DID, THEN WE WANTED TO
MAKE SURE THAT THE PERSON WHO ACTUALLY WON THE ELECTION WAS THE ONE THAT WAS CERTIFIED. >> NO VICE PRESIDENT HAD EVER
INTER EXERCISED THIS AUTHORITY. NO VICE PRESIDENT EVER CLAIMED TO HAVE THE POWER TO EXERCISE
THIS AUTHORITY. >> GREG JACOB WAS VICE PRESIDENT PENCE'S LEGAL COUNSEL. HE WAS IN THE OVAL OFFICE
HEARING EASTMAN READ BETWEEN THE LINES OF THE CONSTITUTION. >> SO, IT REALLY WAS HIM INVENTING SOMETHING WITHOUT ANY
HISTORICAL ROOTS OR ANY HISTORICAL FOUNDATIONS AND THEN DESPERATELY TRYING TO FIND SOME HOOK IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT
THAT NEITHER HISTORY NOR STRUCTURE NOR PRACTICE NOR COMMON SENSE SUPPORTED. >> EASTMAN DISAGREED WITH THAT
AND EVEN PREDICTED THAT THE COURTS MIGHT NOT INTERVENE. >> IF THE COURT STAYED OUT OF IT, THERE IS NO OTHER ACTOR TO
DECIDE THAT ISSUE. AND I EXPRESSED TO PROFESSOR EASTMAN AT OUR MEETING THE NEXT MORNING, ON JANUARY 5th, THAT IF
IT'S NOT THE COURTS, IT'S EFFECTIVELY GOING TO BE DECIDED IN THE STREETS. >> GREG JACOB TOLD US VICE
PRESIDENT PENCE NEVER BELIEVED HE HAD THE POWER TO DO ANYTHING BUT OPEN AND READ THE CERTIFIED VOTES.
>> THE CERTIFICATE OF THE ELECTORS FOR PRESIDENT -- >> BACK IN 2001, PENCE WAS A FRESHMAN CONGRESSMAN WHEN VICE
PRESIDENT AL GORE READ THE VOTES THAT DENIED GORE THE PRESIDENCY IN ONE OF THE CLOSEST ELECTIONS OF ALL TIME.
>> MAY GOD BLESS OUR NEW PRESIDENT AND OUR NEW VICE PRESIDENT, AND MAY GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
>> DID YOU SEE, AT ANY POINT IN THIS PERIOD, THE VICE PRESIDENT RECONSIDER THAT VIEW OR WAIVER IN THAT DETERMINATION?
>> NO. NO. THE VICE PRESIDENT NEVER WAVERED.
IT NEVER MADE SINCE TO HIM THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT WOULD BE EMPOWERED TO DECIDE ISSUES LIKE THAT BY THE FRAMERS.
AND HE SAID, LOOK, I KNOW THE RULES THAT JUDGES HAVE TO FOLLOW. YOU WOULD NEVER ALLOW A JUDGE TO
PRESIDE OVER AND DECIDE AN ISSUE WHEN THEY HAVE THE KIND OF INTEREST I HAVE IN THIS CASE. I'M ON THE TICKET.
OBVIOUSLY I WANT US TO WIN THIS ELECTION. HOW COULD IT POSSIBLY BE PROPER FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES TO DECIDE SUCH AN IMPORTANT QUESTION, IN WHICH HE HAS A PERSONAL INTEREST LIKE THAT?
>> WERE THERE OTHER LAWYERS IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHO AGREED WITH EASTMAN, OR WAS HE OUT THERE ALONE?
>> I WAS NOT AWARE OF ANY LAWYERS WHO AGREED WITH HIM. >> BUT ONE PERSON DID AGREE. >> AND I HOPE MIKE PENCE COMES
THROUGH FOR US. I HAVE TO TELL YOU. >> THE DAY OF THE EASTMAN MEETING, MR. TRUMP RAISED
EXPECTATIONS THAT PENCE COULD FLIP THE ELECTION. >> OF COURSE, IF HE DOESN'T COME THROUGH, I WON'T LIKE HIM QUITE
AS MUCH. >> IN A PRESS RELEASE THE DAY BEFORE THE COUNT, MR. TRUMP SAID, THE VICE PRESIDENT AND I
ARE IN TOTAL AGREEMENT THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS THE POWER TO ACT. >> WHEN YOU SAW THAT STATEMENT,
WHAT DID YOU THINK? >> I WAS OUTRAGED BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS CATEGORICALLY FALSE. I KNEW THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT
HAD CONVEYED MULTIPLE TIMES TO THE PRESIDENT WHAT HIS POSITION WAS. AND I KNEW THAT THE STATEMENT
WAS NOT ACCURATE. >> JOHN EASTMAN. >> ON JANUARY 6, JOHN EASTMAN TOLD THE PRESIDENT'S RALLY THAT
GEORGIA VOTING MACHINES WERE RIGGED. >> YOU KNOW THE OLD WAY WAS TO HAVE A BUNCH OF BALLOTS SITTING
IN A BOX UNDER THE FLOOR, AND WHEN YOU NEEDED MORE, YOU PULLED THEM OUT IN THE DARK OF NIGHT. THEY PUT THOSE BALLOTS IN A
SECRET FOLDER IN THE MACHINES. >> THAT WAS FALSE. AND SO WERE CLAIMS EASTMAN MADE TO THE GEORGIA LEGISLATURE,
ACCORDING TO AN INVESTIGATION BY GEORGIA'S REPUBLICAN SECRETARY OF STATE, WHO HIMSELF HAD VOTED FOR TRUMP.
>> YOU SAID 2,500 CONVICTS. THE INVESTIGATION FOUND FOUR. YOU SAID 10,000 DEAD VOTERS. THE INVESTIGATION FOUND FOUR.
IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT. >> YOU'VE NOW MISCHARACTERIZED BY TESTIMONY.
AND I'M LOOKING TO LET YOU GET AWAY WITH THAT. THEY WERE BASED ON THE EXPERT ANALYSIS, AND IT DIDN'T SAY
2,500 FELONS VOTED. IT SAID AS MANY AS. IT ACKNOWLEDGED THE LIMITATION OF THE DATA THEY HAD.
AND THE ANALYSIS THAT WAS CONDUCTED, CONTRARY ANALYSIS PROVIDED BY THE SECRETARY OF STATE, WAS SIMPLY A PRESS
CONFERENCE. I'D LOVE TO SEE THE DATA, AND WE WILL ADJUST THE NUMBERS AS THE COMPLAINT THAT WAS FILED THE
NEXT DAY SAID WE WOULD ONCE WE GOT THE DATA. >> TOO LATE TO ADJUST THE NUMBERS NOW.
YOU'VE ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THE LEGISLATURE, AND THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AS MANY AS 2,500 AND THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF
FOUR. >> WE DON'T KNOW THE ACTUAL NUMBER IS FOUR BECAUSE THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAS DECLINED
TO GIVE US THAT INFORMATION ON WHICH THAT WAS BASED. >> IF EASTMAN BELIEVED THERE WAS SO MUCH EVIDENCE, WHY HAS NO
STATE REPORTED FRAUD THAT WOULD OVERTURN ITS ELECTION RESULT? >> I THINK WE ARE QUICKLY TURNING INTO A COUNTRY WHERE
THERE'S THE PRO-GOVERNMENT PARTY OR THE UNI PARTY, AND FOLKS THAT ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE DIRECTION OUR COUNTRY IS GOING,
THE MAGA MOVEMENT, THE TEA PARTY MOVEMENT BEFORE THAT, IF YOU WILL. AND THE FOLKS IN THOSE
GOVERNMENT OFFICES TEND TO BE ON THE ONE SIDE OF THAT DISPUTE RATHER THAN THE OTHER. >> AND YOU SAY THEY'RE COVERING
IT UP. >> WELL, CERTAINLY THEY'RE NOT INVESTIGATING TO THE LEVEL I THINK THE EVIDENCE WARRANTS.
>> FURTHER INVESTIGATION WAS PURSUED BY GEORGIA PROSECUTORS. A GRAND JURY INDICTED 19 DEFENDANTS, INCLUDING THE FORMER
PRESIDENT, ALLEGING A CONSPIRACY TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION, INCLUDING FALSE STATEMENTS TO PERSUADE GEORGIA LEGISLATORS TO
REJECT LAWFUL ELECTORAL VOTES. >> WE KNOW DEAD PEOPLE VOTED. >> WITH ONLY HOURS TO GO BEFORE THE COUNT AT THE CAPITOL,
EASTMAN'S DUBIOUS READING OF THE CONSTITUTION BECAME AN ULTIMATUM. >> AND ALL WE ARE DEMANDING OF
VICE PRESIDENT PENCE IS THIS AFTERNOON AT 1:00 HE LET THE LEGISLATORS OF THE STATE LOOK INTO THIS SO WE GET TO THE
BOTTOM OF IT AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE KNOW WHETHER WE HAVE CONTROL OF THE DIRECTION OF OUR GOVERNMENT OR NOT.
AND ANYBODY THAT IS NOT WILLING TO STAND UP TO DO IT DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE IN THE OFFICE. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.
>> HOURS LATER, AFTER THE PRESIDENT'S SPEECH, RIOTERS WERE STALKING MIKE PENCE. >> [ CROWD CHANTING ] HANG MIKE
PENCE. >> GREG JACOB, THE VICE PRESIDENT'S COUNSEL WAS IN THE CHAMBER AS PENCE WAS READING,
NOT JUDGING THE VOTE. >> WE STARTED HEARING, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, GLASS
SHATTERED. >> THE RIOT STOPPED THE COUNT. IN THE MOMENT, JACOB SENT EMAILS TO JOHN EASTMAN.
THANKS TO YOUR BULL, WE ARE NOW UNDER SIEGE. HE CALLED EASTMAN A SERPENT IN THE EAR OF THE PRESIDENT.
THE VIOLENCE CAUSED THE VOTE COUNT TO TAKE LONGER THAN THE RULES ALLOW, SO EASTMAN WROTE BACK TO JACOB WITH A PLEA.
SINCE THE RULES WERE BROKEN ALREADY, WHY NOT BREAK ONE MORE AND SEND THE VOTES BACK TO THE STATES?
>> THE PEOPLE WHO STORMED THE BUILDING BELIEVED THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT HAD AUTHORITIES THAT HE, IN FACT, DID NOT HAVE.
AND THAT WAS A MOTIVATING FACTOR FOR THEM IN STORMING THE BUILDING. AND AFTER YOU SEE ALL OF THAT
ACTUALLY PLAY OUT, THE KIND OF PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS THAT I HAD EXPRESSED TO HIM ON THE 5th, IF THE COURTS DON'T DECIDE THIS,
IT'S GOING TO BE DECIDED IN THE STREETS. WELL, THE STREETS HAD COME TO US.
AND WE STILL WANTED US TO GO AHEAD AND PUSH AHEAD WITH HIS THEORY. >> WHICH TOLD YOU WHAT ABOUT
JOHN EASTMAN? >> HE WAS MOSTLY CONCERNED WITH THE RESULTS AND DIDN'T REALLY CARE HOW MANY LAWS HAD TO BE
BROKEN TO GET THERE. >> EASTMAN WAS FORCED TO RETIRE AS A PROFESSOR AT CHAPMAN UNIVERSITY.
HE ASKED TO GET ON THE PRESIDENT'S PARDON LIST, BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. TODAY, HE'S FIGHTING DISBARMENT
IN CALIFORNIA. AND THIS PAST AUGUST, HE TURNED HIMSELF IN IN GEORGIA AND HAS PLEADED NOT GUILTY.
>> WHO IS THE JOHN EASTMAN THAT WE SEE IN THE MUG SHOT? >> THE JOHN EASTMAN YOU SEE IN THAT MUG SHOT IS ONE WHO REMAINS
ASTOUNDED THAT WE HAVE SO CORRUPTED OUR CRIMINAL LAW THAT THIS IS EVEN BROUGHT. I HOPE IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME,
WE GET OUR ACT TOGETHER AND UNDERSTAND THIS IS A BRIDGE TOO FAR IN OUR CRIMINLIZATION OF THE LAW.
AND OUR CRIMINALIZATION OF OUR POLITICAL OPPOSITION. >> LAST YEAR, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS PASSED AN ELECTORAL
COUNT LAW. IT SOMEHOW CLARIFIES THE VICE PRESIDENT'S ROLE IS TO READ, NOT JUDGE, THE VOTES.
>>> EACH MONTH, ABOUT 71 MILLION AMERICANS, RETIREES, DISABLED WORKERS, AND OTHERS, RECEIVE CHECKS FROM SOCIAL SECURITY.
BUT EACH YEAR ABOUT A MILLION PEOPLE GET SOMETHING ELSE IN THE MAIL, A BILL. THEY'RE TOLD THEY OWE THE
GOVERNMENT MONEY, SOMETIMES TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, BECAUSE THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION MISCALCULATED
THEIR BENEFITS AND PAID THEM TOO MUCH. IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE, AND IT CAN TAKE YEARS, EVEN DECADES,
FOR THESE UNEXPECTED DEBTS TO SUDDENLY COME TO LIGHT. IT OFTEN DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S NOT THE RECIPIENT'S FAULT.
THEY STILL HAVE TO PAY. FEW PEOPLE REALIZE IT, BUT SOCIAL SECURITY'S MISTAKES ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
>> LAST YEAR AT STEVEN AND BECKY SWORD'S HOME IN CHICAGO, A LETTER ARRIVED FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION.
WHEN BECKY SWORD READ IT, SHE WAS STUNNED TO DISCOVER THAT SHE AND HER HUSBAND OWED SOCIAL SECURITY $51,887 AND WERE
EXPECTED TO REPAY IT WITHIN 30 DAYS. >> THAT LETTER CHANGED YOUR LIFE.
>> OH, YEAH. >> ARE YOU SCARED? >> HE'S THINKING WE'RE GOING TO LOSE OUR HOUSE.
WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? I MEAN, WE WERE VERY SCARED. >> WHEN WE SPOKE WITH STEVEN AND BECKY SWORD IN AUGUST, STEVEN
WAS MAKING $16 AN HOUR AS A SECURITY GUARD. BECKY WAS WORKING DAYS AS AN OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY ASSISTANT
IN A NURSING HOME. THEY'RE 62 YEARS OLD AND HAVE WORKED FULL TIME MOST OF THEIR LIVES.
BUT FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW, STEVEN HAS BEEN DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF A PANCREATIC DISEASE THAT NEARLY KILLED HIM IN 2016.
>> HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THE HOSPITAL FOR? >> ABOUT 105 DAYS. WHEN I LEFT THE HOSPITAL, IT
TOOK ME ABOUT TWO MONTHS TO LEARN TO EAT AND WALK AGAIN. >> STEVEN STARTED RECEIVING SOCIAL SECURITY DISABILITY
CHECKS IN 2017, AS HE RECOVERED AND RETURNED TO WORK. THE AGENCY'S RULES ARE COMPLICATED, BUT BECKY FAXED
STEVEN'S PAY STUBBS TO SOCIAL SECURITY SO THE AGENCY COULD MONITOR HIS EARNINGS AND ELIGIBILITY.
>> I KNEW THEY WERE GETTING IT. >> IN RETURN, SOCIAL SECURITY SENT THE SWORDS LETTERS LIKE THIS ONE, SAYING IT HAD
INCREASED STEVEN'S BENEFITS TO GIVE HIM CREDIT FOR HIS 2019 EARNINGS. >> IS THE IMPRESSION YOU GOT
FROM THAT THAT THEY'RE EXAMINING THE PAY STUBS AND THEY'RE PAYING ATTENTION? >> DEFINITELY.
THEY'RE INCREASING IT. >> THE LETTER THE SWORDS GOT LAST YEAR FROM SOCIAL SECURITY SAID STEVEN SHOULDN'T HAVE
GOTTEN ANY MONEY AT THE TIME THE AGENCY GAVE HIM THAT INCREASE. STEVEN AND BECKY OWED MORE THAN $50,000, THE AGENCY SAID,
BECAUSE WE DID NOT STOP HIS CHECKS ABOUT THREE YEARS SOONER. >> HAS ANYONE IN SOCIAL SECURITY EVER, SORT OF, APOLOGIZED?
>> NO. THEY TAKE NO BLAME AT ALL. >> THEY SAY IT'S OUR FAULT. >> THEY'RE SAYING YOU SHOULD
HAVE KNOWN -- >> THAT WE'RE MAKING TOO MUCH MONEY. >> -- THAT SOCIAL SECURITY WAS
GIVING YOU TOO MUCH MONEY EVEN THOUGH SOCIAL SECURITY DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE GIVING YOU TOO MUCH MONEY.
>> YEAH. WHICH IS STRANGE. YOU'RE SENDING IN YOUR PAY STUBS.
SOMEONE HAS TO FILE THAT. >> WHEN WE ASKED THEM, THEY SAID, WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT THAT EVERY MONTH.
THEY'RE NOT EVEN LOOKING EVERY YEAR. I COULD SEE MAKING A MISTAKE AFTER A FEW MONTHS, BUT A FEW
YEARS. THEY BLAMED IT ON COVID. THEY BLAMED IT ON BEING UNDERSTAFFED.
TO ME THEY'RE SAYING IT'S THEIR FAULT. >> THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION TOLD US ITS
PRIVACY RULES PREVENT IT FROM COMMENTING ON INDIVIDUAL CASES LIKE THE SWORDS. AND NO ONE FROM THE AGENCY WOULD
GIVE US AN ON-CAMERA INTERVIEW. BUT KILOLO KIJAKAZI GAVE THIS TESTIMONY BEFORE A CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE LATE LAST MONTH.
>> HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE RECEIVING OVERPAYMENT NOTICES IN A YEAR? >> FOR FY-2022, 1,028,389. FOR FY-2023, 986,912.
>> SEEMS LIKE AN AWFUL LOT. >> NOBODY KNOWS THIS IS HAPPENING TO SO MANY PEOPLE. >> THIS IS NOT A STORY SOCIAL
SECURITY WANTS TO PUBLICIZE. >> OH, NO. >> NO. >> TERRY SAVAGE WRITES A
NATIONALLY SYNDICATED COLUMN ON PERSONAL VIE NANCE. LAURENCE KOTLIKOFF CREATED SOFTWARE TO HELP PEOPLE MAXIMIZE
THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS. TOGETHER, THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO LAW ATTENTION TO WHAT THEY CALL SOCIAL SECURITY HORROR STORIES,
CAUSED LARGELY, THEY SAY, BY THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION'S OWN MISTAKES. >> THEIR MANTRA, THEIR RULE, IS
OUR MISTAKE IS YOUR MISTAKE. AND YOU CAN APPEAL IT OR ASK FOR A WAIVER. THE ONLY WAY THEY WILL WAIVE
THIS IS IF YOU ARE INDIGENT, REALLY, REALLY POOR. >> THE WORST PART OF IT IS THEY HAVE ALL THE POWER BECAUSE THEY
SAY, IF YOU DON'T PAY US BACK, WE'RE JUST GOING TO CUT YOUR BENEFIT CHECK. IMAGINE.
PEOPLE LIVE ON THOSE CHECKS. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU GET NO CHECK OR A SMALL AMOUNT? >> IF SOMEONE'S BEEN PAID TOO
MUCH IN SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS, WHY SHOULDN'T THEY HAVE TO PAY IT BACK? >> BECAUSE YOU RELIED ON IT SO
YOU MAY HAVE DECIDED TO RETIRE EARLY OR TO SPEND THE MONEY ON YOUR CHILD'S TUITION. >> OVERPAYMENTS HAVE EXISTED FOR
DECADES AND CAUSED PEOPLE A LOT OF FINANCIAL PAIN. BUT FIXING THE PROBLEM HAS NEVER BEEN A HIGH PRIORITY ON CAPITOL
HILL. IN 2015, CONGRESS DID APPROVE A MEASURE TO REDUCE OVERPAYMENTS BY GIVING SOCIAL SECURITY MORE
TIMELY ACCESS TO PAYROLL DATA. BUT EIGHT YEARS LATER, THE AGENCY STILL HASN'T PUT THE NEW SYSTEM IN PLACE.
AGING TECHNOLOGY AND STAFF SHORTAGES HAVE TAKEN A TOLL ON SOCIAL SECURITY. LAST YEAR, THE AGENCY'S
WORKFORCE HIT A 25-YEAR LOW, AS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CLAIMING BENEFITS KEPT GOING UP. WHEN WE TOOK A CLOSE LOOK AT
SOCIAL SECURITY'S ANNUAL REPORTS TO CONGRESS, WE DISCOVERED SOMETHING ELSE HAS BEEN GOING UP AS WELL, THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE
AGENCY HAS BEEN CLAWING BACK FROM THE CHECKS OF PEOPLE WITH OVERPAYMENTS. JEAN RODRIGUEZ, WHO'S 73 YEARS
OLD, TOLD US HER RETIREMENT CHECKS HAD BEEN WITHHELD FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS. A FORMER SCHOOL CAFETERIA
WORKER, SHE STARTED RECEIVING BENEFITS IN 2014. BUT FOUR YEARS LATER, SHE AND HER HUSBAND, GLENN, WERE ASKED
TO COME TO THE LOCAL SOCIAL SECURITY OFFICE IN VIRGINIA BEACH, VIRGINIA, TO SPEAK WITH A REPRESENTATIVE.
>> AND HE SAYS, WE HAVE A SMALL PROBLEM. >> HOW MUCH DID HE SAY THEY HAD OVERPAID YOU?
>> $72,000. >> THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A SMALL PROBLEM. >> NO.
IT WASN'T. WE WERE BOTH DEVASTATED. >> WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU HAPPENED?
>> SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, THEY MADE A COMBINATION OF FOUR OTHER PEOPLE IN ADDITION TO MY NUMBERS.
>> SO, THEY WERE GIVING YOU BENEFITS BASED NOT JUST ON YOUR SALARY BUT ON FOUR OTHER PEOPLE'S SALARY ALL COMBINED.
>> RIGHT. >> HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? >> GOOD QUESTION. DON'T KNOW HOW THEY DID IT.
>> DID SOCIAL SECURITY ADMIT TO YOU THAT THIS WAS THEIR FAULT? >> YES, THEY DID. >> BUT THE AGENCY SAID THE
RODRIGUEZES HAD TO PAY THE MONEY BACK ANYWAY BECAUSE THEY COULD AFFORD TO DO. JEAN AND GLENN OWN THEIR HOME,
AND GLENN GETS A PENSION FROM THE NAVY. >> IF IT WAS SOMETHING I KNEW I DID TOTALLY WRONG, THEY HAVE A
RIGHT TO COME AFTER ME. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HOW THEY CALCULATED IT AND THEN THEY WAITED FOUR YEARS TO FIGURE IT
OUT. >> IN A STATEMENT, THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION TOLD US, OUR PAYMENT ACCURACY RATES ARE
HIGH, YET EVEN SMALL ERROR RATES ADD UP TO SUBSTANTIAL IMPROPER PAYMENT AMOUNTS. THE AGENCY SAID IT'S REQUIRED BY
LAW TO RECOVER THIS MONEY AND ADDED THAT OVERPAYMENTS ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE AGENCY'S FAULT. THEY CAN HAPPEN WHEN A
BENEFICIARY DOES NOT TIMELY REPORT WORK OR OTHER FINANCIAL INFORMATION. THERE'S NO STATUTE OF
LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG SOCIAL SECURITY CAN WAIT TO COLLECT AN OVERPAYMENT. TWO YEARS AGO, ROY FARMER OF
GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN, GOT A LETTER FROM SOCIAL SECURITY ASKING HIM WHETHER HE'D FORGOTTEN TO PAY A DEBT HE
DIDN'T KNOW HE HAD. >> THIS IS AN ALLEGED OVERPAYMENT FROM 20 YEARS AGO. >> YES, SIR.
>> WHEN YOU WERE 11 OR 12 YEARS OLD. >> CORRECT. >> ROY FARMER GREW UP IN ROYAL
CADILLAC, MICHIGAN, IN A FAMILY OF SIX THAT STRUGGLED TO MAKE ENDS MEET. >> WE ENDED UP NEAR HOMELESSNESS
A COUPLE OF TIMES, AT ONE POINT LIVING, SIX OF US IN A CAMPER TRAILER. >> HE WAS BORN WITH CEREBRAL
PALSY. >> I HAD LEG BRACES. I HAD TO WALK WITH A CHILD SIZE VERSION OF AN OLD PERSON WALKER.
>> AND YOU HAD SURGERIES. YOU HAD DOCTORS VISITS. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> YOU HAD IT TREATED.
>> THANKFULLY THEY WERE ABLE TO GET ME TO A POINT WHERE I COULD LIVE A MORE OR LESS NORMAL LIFE WITH SOME LIMITATIONS.
>> HE'S 33 YEARS OLD NOW AND WORKS FULL TIME. BUT WHEN HE WAS A CHILD, HIS MOTHER RECEIVED BENEFITS ON HIS
BEHALF. SOCIAL SECURITY TOLD HIM THAT WHEN HE WAS 11 YEARS OLD, THE AGENCY DETERMINED HE WAS NO
LONGER MEDICALLY ELIGIBLE FOR BENEFITS, AND HIS MOTHER RECEIVED $4,902 TOO MUCH. HIS MOTHER DIED A FEW YEARS AGO,
AND THE AGENCY IS INSISTING HE PAY BACK THE MONEY BECAUSE IT BELIEVES HE CAN AFFORD TO DO SO. >> COULD YOU AFFORD $4,902?
>> NO, SIR. THAT MUCH IS ABOUT A SIXTH OF MY ANNUAL PAY. >> ROY FARMER COULDN'T FIND A
LAWYER TO HELP HIM. THERE'S LITTLE FINANCIAL INCENTIVE FOR ATTORNEYS TO TAKE ON THESE CASES.
IT TOOK FARMER NINE MONTHS TO GET THE DOCUMENTS IN HIS SOCIAL SECURITY FILE. HE WAS LOOKING FOR THE AGENCY'S
EVIDENCE HE WAS NO LONGER MEDICALLY ELIGIBLE FOR BENEFITS WHEN HE WAS 11 YEARS OLD. BUT HE SAYS THERE AS NONE.
>> THEY TOLD ME, WE PROBABLY HAD IT AT SOME POINT, BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT NOW. >> AND THEY ADMIT THERE'S NO
EVIDENCE IT'S YOUR FAULT, BUT THEY'RE STILL COMING AFTER YOU FOR IT. >> YES, SIR.
>> PEOPLE AT SOCIAL SECURITY HAVE TOLD US, LOOK, THIS IS A LAW, THIS HAS TO BE CHANGED THROUGH CONGRESS.
>> IT'S NOT, ANDERSON, BECAUSE THE LAW SAYS THAT IF EQUITY AND GOOD CONSCIENCE DEMANDS THAT THE CLAWBACK BE WAIVED, IT SHOULD BE
WAIVED. >> LAURENCE KOTLIKOFF, THE ECONOMIST WHO HAS WRITTEN ABOUT OVERPAYMENTS, IS TALKING ABOUT A
SPECIFIC PART OF THE SOCIAL SECURIY ACT THAT SAYS THE AGENCY SHOULD NOT RECOVER AN OVERPAYMENT IF DOING SO WOULD BE
AGAINST EQUITY AND GOOD CONSCIENCE. THE PROBLEM, HE SAYS, IS THAT SOCIAL SECURITY INTERPRETS THAT
PHRASE IN A VERY NARROW WAY. >> SO, THE AGENCY ITSELF, SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, HAS A LOT OF DISCRETION.
>> ABSOLUTELY. >> OH, SURE, THEY DO. >> FINANCIALLY, THE LONG-TERM PICTURE IS NOT GOOD.
AND THEY'VE TRAINED THE STAFF, LOOK, YOUR JOB IS TO COLLECT EVERY PENNY YOU CAN NO MATTER WHAT.
>> THE SOCIAL SECURITY TRUST FUND FOR RETIREMENT AND DISABILITY BENEFITS IS EXPECTED TO BE DEPLETED AROUND 2035
BECAUSE THE BENEFITS BEING PAID OUT ARE GREATER THAN THE PAYROLL TAXES COMING IN. BUT KOTLIKOFF AND SAVAGE ARGUE
THAT CLAWING BACK MONEY FROM THE ELDERLY AND DISABLED ISN'T GOING TO MAKE MUCH OF A DENT IN THAT PROBLEM.
THEY SAY THERE ARE SOME SIMPLE THINGS CONGRESS AND THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION COULD DO TO ALLEVIATE THE STRESS AND
FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY CAUSED BY OVERPAYMENTS. FOR EXAMPLE -- >> SHOULDN'T THERE BE A STATUTE
OF LIMITATIONS SO THAT AFTER 18 MONTHS, IT'S THEIR MISTAKE AND THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT, NOT THE PERSON WHO MISTAKENLY
RECEIVED AND LIVED ON THAT BENEFIT CHECK? >> IF IT'S MORE THAN A YEAR OR TWO --
>> JUST WAIVE IT. JUST SAY, OUR MISTAKE, YOU'RE FINE. > ROY FARMER IN MICHIGAN HAS
BEEN WAITING FOUR MONTHS TO APPEAL HIS CASE FOR AN ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE WHO WORKS FOR SOCIAL SECURITY.
JEAN AND GLENN RODRIGUEZ TOLD US THEY'VE BEEN WAITING FOUR YEARS. AS FOR THE SWORDS IN CHICAGO, STEVEN AND BECKY TOLD US THEY
WERE TIRED OF FIGHTING THE GOVERNMENT AND HAD DECIDED NOT TO APPEAL THE MATTER ANY FURTHER.
>> I JUST FIGURE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE UP OUR RETIREMENT FUNDS. >> THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU
CAN -- >> THAT'S THE ONLY WAY. THEY SAID WE'D HAVE TO PAY IT BACK IN THREE YEAR'S TIME.
WE'D HAVE TO COME UP WITH $1,400 A MONTH TO PAY IT BACK WECHLT DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY. >> WHEN STEVEN SWORD WAS NOT
WORKING THE NIGHT SHIFT AND BECKY SWORD WAS NOT WORKING THE DAY SHIFT, THEY WERE PLANNING TO HAND OVER MOST OF THE MONEY THEY
SAVED FOR RETIREMENT TO THE GOVERNMENT AGENCY CHARGED WITH SUPPORTING AMERICANS IN THEIR OLD AGE.
ALL THE PEOPLE WE INTERVIEWED FOR THIS STORY ASKED THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION TO WAIVE THEIR DEBTS.
THEIR REQUESTS WERE DENIED. BUT AFTER WE ASKED THE AGENCY ABOUT THESE CASES, SOCIAL SECURITY TOLD THE SWORDS, THE
RODRIGUEZS, AND ROY FARMER, THAT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY THE MONEY BACK. THE AGENCY SAYS IT'S NOW
REVIEWING ITS POLICIES AND PROCEDURES REGARDING OVERPAYMENTS.
>>> HOW TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT OVERPAID BY >>> WITH EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS ON THE RISE ACROSS THE GLOBE,
LIKE THE RARE CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE THAT HIT MEXICO 11 DAYS AGO, WE WERE INTERESTED IN A STUDY ON A REMOTE ISLAND VERY
FEW PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO VISIT, WHERE SCIENTISTS ARE STUDYING HOW THE STRESS OF THESE ENVIRONMENTAL CRISES AFFECTS
LONGEVITY AND OVERALL HEALTH. THE SUBJECTS ARE MONKEYS, RHESUS MACAQUE MONKEYS, BECAUSE 94% OF THEIR DNA IS THE SAME AS HUMANS.
THEY SURVIVED WITH RELATIVE ENVIRONMENTAL STABILITY UNTIL SIX YEARS AGO, WHEN THE ISLAND WAS HIT WITH A DEVASTATING
STORM. AFTER TAKING TESTS FOR TUBERCULOSIS, MEASLES, AND COVID, WE WERE ALLOWED TO VISIT
CAYO, SANTIAGO, OR MONKEY ISLAND, OFF THE COAST OF PUERTO RICO. THERE ARE ROUGHLY 1,800 MONKEYS
ON CAYO. THEY LIVE IN ISOLATION IN WHAT IS A NATURAL LABORATORY HALFWAY BETWEEN CAPTIVITY AND THE WAY
THEY WOULD LIVE IN THE WILD. >> ARE THEY FIGHTING? >> YEAH. SHE'S LOOKING AROUND AND
SCREAMING FOR HELP, TRYING TO GET OTHERS TO COME TO HER AID. >> WOW. >> BIOLOGIST JAMES HIGHAM OF NYU
AND NOAH SNYDER-MACKLER OF ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY, ARE PART OF A TEAM OF INVESTIGATORS IN THIS LONG-TERM RESEARCH
PROJECT. >> WHAT'S THE LIFE SPAN USUALLY? >> THE LIFE SPAN HERE ON THE ISLAND FOR THE FEMALES, THE
MEDIAN LIFE SPAN, IS ABOUT 18 YEARS. AND MALES, ABOUT 15 YEARS. >> DO THEY HAVE -- IS THERE A
PREDATOR? >> NO PREDATORS HERE. >> ANOTHER WAY LIFE HERE IS UNLIKE THE WILD IS THAT THESE
GUYS ARE SERVED THEIR MEALS EVERY MORNING. RESEARCHERS TELL US THERE'S A HIERARCHY.
THE HIGHEST RANKING MONKEYS GET TO EAT FIRST. >> I'VE EVEN SEE HIGH RANKING INDIVIDUALS GO UP TO A LOW
RANKING INDIVIDUAL WHO IS EATING FOOD IN THEIR MOUTH, AND PULL THEIR MOUTH OPEN AND TAKE THE FOOD OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS.
>> NO. WHAT DO THEY GET? >> PURINA MONKEY CHOW. >> THERE'S MONKEY CHOW?
>> MADE BY PURINA. >> OH, MY GOODNESS. >> RHESUS MONKEYS ARE COMMONLY USED FOR RESEARCH BECAUSE THEIR
OUR CLOSE RELATIVES. >> THEY HAVE SYSTEMS LIKE US, EYES LIKE OURS, LUNGS AND HEARTS THAT ARE LIKE OURS.
>> THESE RHESUS MACAQUE MONKEYS, THEIR ANCESTORS, CAME FROM INDIA IN 1938. >> AMERICAN PRIMATOLOGIST
CLARENCE CARPENTER TOOK 500 OF THEM ON A GRUELING 14,000-MILE SEA VOYAGE THAT LASTED 51 DAYS. HE WANTED TO CREATE A
NATURALISTIC RESEARCH FACILITY TO STUDY THE MONKEY'S SOCIAL AND SEXUAL BEHAVIORS. THEIR EARLY YEARS HERE WERE
TOUGH. MANY DIED FROM DISEASE. BUT ENOUGH OF THEM LIVED ON SO THAT BY THE 1950s, SCIENTISTS
BEGAN TATTOOING THEM AND TAKING A DAILY CENSUS. THAT METICULOUS RECORDKEEPING HAS CONTINUED WITH TODAY'S
MONKEYS, ALL OF WHOM DESCENDED FROM THE ORIGINAL GROUP, GIVING SCIENTISTS RARE ACCESS TO MORE THAN SIX DECADES OF THEIR
BIOLOGICAL AND BEHAVIORAL DATA. ONE OF THE THINGS THEY LEARNED IS THAT THEY'RE HIGHLY ADAPTABLE, ACCLIMATING QUICKLY
TO THE ISLAND. THEY ALSO LEARNED THAT THEY CAN BE QUITE AGGRESSIVE, ESPECIALLY AROUND FOOD AND DURING THE
MATING SEASON. >> ARE THESE MONKEYS INTELLIGENT? >> SURE.
THEY'RE PRETTY INTELLIGENT. THEY'RE SOCIALLY INTELLIGENT. >> HOW SIMILAR TO US ARE THEY IN HOW THEY LIVE?
>> THEY FORM REALLY STRONG SOCIAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEIR BEST FRIENDS AND THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS.
>> THEY HAVE BEST FRIENDS? >> SOME CLOSE FRIENDS, SOME BEST FRIENDS, RIGHT? >> RHESUS MONKEYS LIVE IN
FEMALE-LED SOCIETIES. MOTHERS, DAUGHTERS, AUNTS, AND GRANDMOTHERS STICK TOGETHER IN GROUPS, WHILE THE MALES LEAVE
WHEN THEY REACH MATURITY AND JOIN OTHER TROOPS FOR BREEDING. FEW PEOPLE KNOW THE TROOP TENSIONS AND ALLEGIANCES BETTER
THAN RESEARCH ASSISTANTS DANIEL PHILLIPS AND JOSUE NEGRON, WHO HAVE WORKED ON CAYO FOR YEARS. THEY ARRIVE EVERY MORNING BY
BOAT AT 7:00 A.M. AND FOR THE NEXT SEVEN HOURS, THEY DOCUMENT THINGS LIKE AGGRESSION, GROOMING, VIGILANCE,
AND FEEDING. >> DO YOU EVER GET TO KNOW INDIVIDUALS, IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW, THAT MONKEY VERSUS THAT
ONE? >> YEAH. WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THEM RIGHT AWAY BECAUSE I NEED TO KNOW,
LIKE, WHO IS INTERACTING WITH WHO, HOW THEY, LIKE, GROOM EACH OTHER OR ATTACK EACH OTHER. >> AND HOW CAN YOU TELL THE
DIFFERENCE? WHAT ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT YOU SEE? >> YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCES
ON EVEN HOW THEY WALK, HOW THEY MOVE. THEIR EVEN FACES HAVE DIFFERENCES.
>> IN OTHER WORDS, THEIR FACES BECOME AS ORDINARY, IN A WAY, TO YOUR EYES AS HUMAN FACES. >> YES.
>> THEY RECOGNIZE FAMILIES. YOUR FACE IS FAMILIAR. YOU SHOULD BE THE SON OF THIS FEMALE.
>> EVERYTHING CHANGED FOR THE RESEARCH AND THE MONKEYS WHEN HURRICANE MARIA SLAMMED INTO PUERTO RICO IN SEPTEMBER 2017.
155-MILE-AN-HOUR WINDS SMASHED INTO HOMES AND OFFICE BUILDINGS, DESTROYING EVERYTHING IN SIGHT, INCLUDING THE POWER GRID AND
COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS. NEARLY 3,000 PEOPLE DIED. THERE WAS NO WAY FOR THE TEAM TO GET TO MONKEY ISLAND.
ANGELINA RUIZ-LAMBIDES, THE THEN SCIENTIFIC DIRECTOR OF CAYO, SEVEN MONTHS PREGNANT AT THE TIME, SHELTERED IN HER HOME
OUTSIDE SAN JUAN WITH HER HUSBAND AND TWO YOUNG CHILDREN. >> YOU THOUGHT THE MONKEYS WERE ALL GOING TO DIE.
>> YEAH, WE THOUGHT THE MONKEYS WERE GOING TO DIE. >> JAMES HIGHAM AND NOAH SNYDER-MACKLER COULDN'T GET ANY
NEWS ABOUT THEIR COLLEAGUES OR THE MONKEYS. SO, TWO DAYS AFTER THE STORM, THE TEAM CAME UP WITH AN IDEA.
>> AND YOU HIRED A HELICOPTER. >> WE HIRED A HELICOPTER. >> THEY ENLISTED THE PILOT TO FLY OVER CAYO AND DO A SURVEY.
AND THEY HAD A LIST OF QUESTIONS. >> CAN HE SEE ANY MONKEYS? ARE THEY ALIVE?
WHAT IS THE STATUS OF THE VEGETATION? ARE THERE STANDING POOLS OF WATER THAT THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO
DRINK? >> ANGELINA, WHO HAD DECIDED TO GO UP WITH THE PILOT, WAS HORRIFIED.
>> THIS IS FOOTAGE SHE SHOT FROM THE HELICOPTER. >> I SEE THIS DESTRUCTION, LIKE 80-MUSS YEARS OF WORK COMPLETELY
FLATTENED. >> THIS IS CAYO BEFORE THE HURRICANE, WITH A DENSE CANOPY OF TREES AND LUSH FOLIAGE.
THIS IS AFTER, A GREEN OASIS TURNED BROWN, BURIED IN DEAD BRANCHES. THE ISLAND LOST TWO-THIRDS OF
ITS VEGETATION. HEART BROKEN BY WHAT SHE WAS SEEING FROM THE AIR, ANGELINA WANTED A CLOSER LOOK.
BUT EVEN ON THE GROUND, SHE DIDN'T SEE ANY MONKEYS. >> SO, THEN I GET ON THE HELICOPTER AGAIN --
>> BACK UP AGAIN. >> -- AND THAT'S WHEN I SEE A SOCIAL GROUP RUNNING FROM THE HELICOPTER.
AND IT'S LIKE, OH, THERE'S MONKEYS. THERE'S STILL CAYO. I THINK I ESTIMATED THAT MUST BE
AROUND 300, 400 MONKEYS OR SO. >> OUT OF 1,700. >> YES. >> BUT ONCE THE STAFF WAS ABLE
TO RETURN AND DO A COMPLETE CENSUS ON THE GROUND, THEY FOUND, TO THEIR UTTER ASTONISHMENT, THAT MOST HAD
LIVED. THEY ESTIMATED JUST ABOUT 50 HAD DIED. >> AND YOU'RE THINKING, HOW
COULD THEY SURVIVE THIS? HOW COULD THEY? >> HOW COULD THEY SURVIVE THIS? >> IT'S STILL A MYSTERY.
WHAT DID THE MONKEYS DO TO RIDE OUT THE STORM? WHERE DID THEY SHELTER FROM THE WIND?
AND WHAT DID THEY EAT? >> SO, ONE OF THE BIG QUESTIONS IS, WITHOUT BEING FED, HOW WERE THEY NOURISHED?
>> YEAH. SO, ALTHOUGH THE HURRICANE DID DRAMATICALLY DEVEGETATE THE ISLAND, ONE THING IT ALSO DID
WAS DEPOSITED A GREAT AMOUNT OF SEAWEED AND ALGAE ONTO THE ISLAND. SO, ONE POSSIBILITY IS THAT THE
MONKEYS WERE EATING MORE OF THIS KIND OF VEGETATION. >> WHICH THEY STILL SEEM TO ENJOY.
AFTER THE HURRICANE, THE MONKEYS HAD TO ADJUST TO A NEW, FAR MORE HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT. THEIR INNATE ADAPTABILITY
CERTAINLY HELPED. >> SO, THEY BOB UP AND DOWN TO TRY AND STOP THEMSELVES FROM FALLING FORWARD.
>> SIX YEARS AFTER THE STORM, THE ADJUSTING CONTINUES. ATTEMPTS TO REPLANT THE TREES HAVE BEEN STYMIED BECAUSE THE
MONKEYS, EVER CURIOUS ABOUT ANYTHING NEW IN THEIR ENVIRONMENT, UPROOT THEM BEFORE THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO GROW.
SO, NOW THERE'S VERY LITTLE SHADE. >> THIS USED TO BE ALMOST FORESTED, RIGHT?
>> LOTS OF SPACE AND SHADE. NOW IT'S A FEW SHADED AREAS. SO, THEY'VE BEEN CLUMPED BY THE CHANGING DISTRIBUTION OF SHADE.
>> SO, AN INTERESTING THING THAT WE SAW IS THAT INDIVIDUALS BECAME MORE SOCIAL. >> NOT JUST MORE SOCIAL.
THE RESEARCHERS HAVE NOTICED THAT THE MONKEYS ARE MORE TOLERANT OF EACH OTHER, WHICH AT FIRST SEEMED COUNTERINTUITIVE.
>> I'M THINKING OF HUMANS IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE'S FEWER RESOURCES. AND I SEE IN MY MIND'S EYE,
COMPETITION. I SEE THEM SAYING, GET OFF MY PROPERTY OR WHATEVER. BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT IT WAS
THE OPPOSITE HERE. >> PERHAPS. BUT THERE'S ALSO FAMOUS EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE PULLING TOGETHER.
SO, I THINK IT CAN GO BOTH WAYS. WE'RE CAPABLE OF GREAT GREED AND COMPETITION AND CRUELTY. BUT HUMANS ARE ALSO CAPABLE OF
GREAT KINDNESS AND COMPASSION AND FRIENDSHIP AND GENEROSITY. AND THAT KIND DUALITY EXISTS IN RECENT SOCIETIES TOO.
>> I THINK ANYONE YOU TALK TO HERE IN PUERTO RICO WOULD BRING UP THE FACT THAT PEOPLE OF PUERTO RICO GELLED AND INCREASED
THEIR SUPPORT OF ONE ANOTHER IN THE FACE OF THIS EVENT. >> BEYOND OBSERVING THEIR SOCIAL INTERACTIONS, THEY WERE ALSO
ABLE TO TRACK BIOLOGICAL CHANGES SINCE THEY HAD ACCESS TO BLOOD TESTS DONE ON THE MONKEYS FOR 13 YEARS.
>> SO, WHAT WE FOUND IS THAT INDIVIDUAL WHO IS HAD LIVED THROUGH THE HURRICANE HAD IMMUNE SYSTEMS THAT LOOKED LIKE THEY'D
AGED AN EXTRA TWO YEARS. >> WHAT IS THAT IN HUMAN YEARS? >> IT'S SIX TO EIGHT HUMAN YEARS.
>> THEY AGED SIX TO EIGHT YEARS? >> THEY AGED SIX TO EIGHT HUMAN YEARS. >> OH, MY GOSH, THROUGH THE
TRAUMA. >> THAT WAS ON AVERAGE. THAT'S THE WORK THAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO RIGHT NOW IS WHAT
MAKES SOME OF THESE INDIVIDUALS MORE RESILIENT TO THE HURRICANE, RIGHT? >> IS THE HYPOTHESIS THAT IT HAS
SOMETHING TO DO WITH FRIENDSHIPS? >> WE THINK THAT THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE ABLE TO
HAVE STRONGER BONDS, STRONGER FRIENDSHIPS, MIGHT HAVE BEEN PROTECTED FROM THIS REALLY STRESSFUL EVENT.
>> THE HURRICANE OPENED ALL NEW AVENUES OF THEIR RESEARCH, WITH QUESTIONS SUCH AS, WHAT PREDICTS WHO SURVIVES A CATASTROPHE LIKE
AN EARTHQUAKE OR A HURRICANE AND HOW QUICKLY THEY RECOVER? SO, WHEN YOU STEP BACK AND LOOK AT YOUR STUDY IN TERMS OF
CLIMATE-RELATED TRAUMA OR ANY KIND OF TRAUMA, ARE YOU EXPECTING TO FIND ANSWERS FOR SURVIVABILITY IN THESE
SITUATIONS FOR HUMAN BEINGS? >> GIVEN THE STRONG SIMILARITY BETWEEN THESE PRIMATES, THESE MONKEYS, AND US, WE KNOW THAT A
LOT OF THE WORK THAT WE'RE DOING AND THE THINGS THAT THEY MIGHT DO TO, YOU KNOW, BE MORE RESILIENT MIGHT BE TRANSLATABLE
TO HUMANS, TO US, AND MIGHT PROVIDE WAYS FOR US TO INTERVENE AND HELP BUFFER AGAINST THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF THESE
TRAUMATIC EVENTS. . >>> THE LAST MINUTE OF "60 MINUTES" IS SPONSORED BY UNITED
HEALTH CARE, THERE FOR WHAT MATTERS. >>> NOW, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT CHARLIE D'AGATA FROM ISRAEL.
>> THIS MORNING SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN MADE A SURPRISE VISIT TO THE WEST BANK, WHERE MAHMOUD ABBAS JOINED ARAB
LEADERS IN CALLING FOR A CEASEFIRE. SECRETARY BLINKEN'S PUSH FOR A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE WAS REFUSED
BY PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU SAYING, NOT UNTIL ALL THE HOSTAGES ARE RETURNED. THE FIGHTING IN GAZA HAS ONLY
INTENSIFIED. HAMAS CLAIMS AN OVERNIGHT AIR STRIKE KILLED AT LEAST 40 PEOPLE AT ANOTHER REFUGEE CAMP AND THAT
THE OVERALL DEATH TOLL HAS NOW SURPASSED 9,700. THE ISRAELI MILITARY CLAIMS IT HAS SURROUNDED GAZA CITY, AND
TROOPS ARE CLOSING IN. HANGING IN THE BALANCE, THE FATE OF MORE THAN 240 HOSTAGES TAKEN BY THE TERROR GROUP IN THOSE
ATTACKS THAT KILLED MORE THAN 1,400 PEOPLE. >>> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH
ANOTHER EDITION OF "60 MINUTES."