1 00:00:12,112 --> 00:00:19,152 >>> JOHN EASTMAN SAYS HE'S INNOCENT, AND HE TOLD US IF HE WAS EVER GUILTY OF ANYTHING, IT WAS GIVING BOLD LEGAL ADVICE TO 2 00:00:19,219 --> 00:00:24,524 DONALD TRUMP. HE WAS AMONG THE ARCHITECTS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BID TO STAY IN POWER. 3 00:00:24,591 --> 00:00:32,799 ONE JUDGE CALLED EASTMAN'S STRATEGY A COUP IN SEARCH OF A LEGAL THEORY. >> YOU SAID 2,500 CONVICTS, THE 4 00:00:32,866 --> 00:00:38,938 INVESTIGATION FOUND FOUR. YOU SAID 10,000 DEAD VOTERS. THE INVESTIGATION FOUND FOUR. IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE YOU KNEW 5 00:00:39,005 --> 00:00:51,351 WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT. >>> LAST YEAR, NEARLY 1 MILLION AMERICANS, LIKE STEVEN AND BECKY SWORD, RECEIVED A LETTER FROM 6 00:00:51,418 --> 00:00:56,156 THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION SAYING THAT DUE TO A GOVERNMENT MISCALCULATION, THEY OWED SOCIAL SECURITY MONEY, 7 00:00:56,222 --> 00:01:06,099 A LOT OF MONEY. IN THEIR CASE $51,887. THE SWORDS WERE ASKED TO REPAY IT WITHIN 30 DAYS. 8 00:01:06,166 --> 00:01:11,204 >> ARE YOU SCARED? >> HE'S THINKING WE'RE GOING TO LOSE OUR HOUSE. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? 9 00:01:11,271 --> 00:01:22,949 I MEAN, WE WERE VERY SCARED. >>> THERE ARE ROUGHLY 1,800 MONKEYS ON CAYO SANTIAGO. THEY LIVE IN ISOLATION IN WHAT 10 00:01:23,016 --> 00:01:34,260 IS A NATURAL LABORATORY. TODAY SCIENTISTS ARE STUDYING HOW THE STRESS OF A DEVASTATING HURRICANE AFFECTED THEIR OVERALL 11 00:01:34,327 --> 00:01:44,671 HEALTH AND RELATIONSHIPS AND WHAT THAT MIGHT TEACH US ABOUT OURSELVES, SINCE WE SHARE 94% OF OUR DNA WITH THEM. 12 00:01:44,737 --> 00:01:51,244 >>> I'M LESLEY STAHL. >> I'M BILL WHITAKER. >> I'M ANDERSON COOPER. >> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. 13 00:01:51,311 --> 00:01:58,918 >> AND I'M CECELIA VEGA. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES AND IN OUR LAST MINUTE, AN UPDATE ON THE WAR IN 14 00:01:58,985 --> 00:02:13,433 THE MIDDLE EAST. TONIGHT ON "60 MINUTES." >>> JOHN EASTMAN SAYS HE'S INNOCENT, AND HE TOLD US, IF HE 15 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:21,708 WAS EVER GUILTY OF ANYTHING, IT WAS GIVING BOLD LEGAL ADVICE TO DONALD TRUMP. EASTMAN WAS A LITTLE-KNOWN LAW 16 00:02:21,774 --> 00:02:28,281 PROFESSOR, WHO FOUND HIMSELF AT THE CENTER OF HISTORY. AMONG THE ARCHITECTS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BID TO STAY IN 17 00:02:28,348 --> 00:02:34,988 POWER. ONE JUDGE CALLED EASTMAN'S STRATEGY A COUP IN SEARCH OF A LEGAL THEORY. 18 00:02:35,054 --> 00:02:42,862 TODAY, EASTMAN FACES NINE CRIMINAL COUNTS IN GEORGIA'S ELECTION CONSPIRACY CASE. AND WE FOUND HE'S STILL HANDING 19 00:02:42,929 --> 00:02:53,273 OUT BOLD LEGAL ADVICE, THIS TIME TO HIMSELF. FACING POSSIBLE YEARS IN PRISON, HE AGREED TO TALK WITH US. 20 00:02:53,339 --> 00:02:59,245 >> THAT WAS THE FIRST ADVICE I GOT FROM MY LEGAL TEAM WHEN I PUT THEM TOGETHER IS THAT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT ANYTHING. 21 00:02:59,312 --> 00:03:04,651 IN NORMAL TIMES, THAT'S THE RIGHT ADVICE FOR LAWYERS TO GIVE THEIR CRIMINAL DEFENDANT CLIENTS. 22 00:03:04,717 --> 00:03:11,891 BUT I QUICKLY DETERMINED THAT THIS FIGHT WAS MUCH MORE ABOUT THE CRIMINAL LAW, THE SPECIFIC LAW, AND A PUBLIC FIGHT. 23 00:03:11,958 --> 00:03:20,633 WE DID NOTHING WRONG. AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO COUNTERACT THE FALSE NARRATIVES ON THAT BECAUSE ALL OF MY ACTIONS WERE 24 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:27,707 DESIGNED TO INVESTIGATE ILLEGALITY IN THE ELECTION TO SEE IF THEY HAD AN IMPACT. >> 63-YEAR-OLD JOHN EASTMAN 25 00:03:27,774 --> 00:03:36,082 GRADUATED FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO LAW SCHOOL, CLERKED FOR SUPREME COURT JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS, AND WAS DEAN OF CHAPMAN 26 00:03:36,149 --> 00:03:43,590 UNIVERSITY'S LAW SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA. HE VIEWS THE WORLD FROM THE FAR RIGHT AND HAS SAID THE POLITICAL 27 00:03:43,656 --> 00:03:53,499 LEFT IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT. >> WE'RE NO LONGER DISAGREEING ABOUT MEMANS TO GET TO SHARED ENDS. 28 00:03:53,566 --> 00:03:59,072 WE'VE GOT WINGS OF THE TWO PARTIES THAT DISAGREE FUNDAMENTALLY ON THE ENDS AND THE PURPOSE OF OUR GOVERNMENT. 29 00:03:59,138 --> 00:04:06,179 >> EXISTENTIAL, YOU SAID? >> WELL, I DO THINK EXISTENTIAL. I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW AND THE CRIMINALIZATION OF 30 00:04:06,245 --> 00:04:13,186 POLITICAL OPPOSITION AND THE THREAT TO SHUTTING DOWN SPEECH OF OPPOSING POLITICAL VIEWS, MEANS THAT THE PEOPLE ARE NO 31 00:04:13,252 --> 00:04:21,527 LONGER IN CHARGE OF THE DIRECTION OF THEIR GOVERNMENT. >> IN NOVEMBER 2020, EASTMAN JOINED RUDY GIULIANI'S EFFORT TO 32 00:04:21,594 --> 00:04:28,134 PERSUADE SEVEN STATES TO WITHHOLD CERTIFICATION OF JOE BIDEN'S VICTORY. >> THERE'S A PLETHORA OF 33 00:04:28,201 --> 00:04:35,108 EVIDENCE THAT YOU CAN GO THROUGH THAT WILL CONVINCE YOU THAT THIS ELECTION WAS STOLEN. >> MY NAME IS JOHN EASTMAN. 34 00:04:35,174 --> 00:04:43,883 >> EASTMAN TESTIFIED ON ZOOM TO LAWMAKERS IN GEORGIA. HE SAID, STATE ELECTION OFFICIALS HADN'T FOLLOWED THE 35 00:04:43,950 --> 00:04:52,825 LAW, AND HE LEVELLED DUBIOUS CLAIMS OF FRAUD, INCLUDING VOTES BY 2,500 FELONS AND 10,000 DEAD PEOPLE. 36 00:04:52,892 --> 00:05:00,466 >> SOMETHING IS AMISS HERE. AND THE LEGISLATURE SIMPLY MUST INVESTIGATE, AS YOU'RE DOING WITH THIS HEARING TODAY. 37 00:05:00,533 --> 00:05:07,707 >> BUT NOT ONE STATE AGREED TO WITHHOLD CERTIFICATION OF ITS VOTE. 50 TRUMP LAWSUITS WERE FAILING. 38 00:05:07,774 --> 00:05:15,181 BY JANUARY, THE DEADLINE WAS AT HAND. ON JANUARY 6th, ELECTORAL VOTES FROM THE STATES ARE COUNTED 39 00:05:15,248 --> 00:05:24,757 BEFORE A JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS. THE CONSTITUTION APPOINTS THE VICE PRESIDENT TO OPEN ALL THE 40 00:05:24,824 --> 00:05:31,464 CERTIFICATES, AND THE VOTES SHALL THEN BE COUNTED. BUT TWO DAYS BEFORE THE COUNT, EASTMAN CAME TO THIS OVAL OFFICE 41 00:05:31,531 --> 00:05:40,039 MEETING WITH A RADICAL INTERPRETATION OF THOSE WORDS. VICE PRESIDENT PENCE, HE SAID, HAD THE POWER TO STOP THE COUNT 42 00:05:40,106 --> 00:05:47,046 AND RETURN THE VOTES TO THE STATES FOR RECONSIDERATION. >> TO DELAY, TO LET THEM FINISH THEIR INVESTIGATIVE WORK AND 43 00:05:47,113 --> 00:05:55,521 MAKE A DETERMINATION ON WHETHER THE ILLEGALITY HAD AFFECTED THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION. AND IF IT DIDN'T, TO REPORT BACK 44 00:05:55,588 --> 00:06:00,993 SO THAT WE COULD HAVE SOME MORE CERTAINTY ABOUT THE VALIDITY OF THE BIDEN ELECTORS. BUT IF IT DID, THEN WE WANTED TO 45 00:06:01,060 --> 00:06:10,903 MAKE SURE THAT THE PERSON WHO ACTUALLY WON THE ELECTION WAS THE ONE THAT WAS CERTIFIED. >> NO VICE PRESIDENT HAD EVER 46 00:06:10,970 --> 00:06:16,809 INTER EXERCISED THIS AUTHORITY. NO VICE PRESIDENT EVER CLAIMED TO HAVE THE POWER TO EXERCISE 47 00:06:16,876 --> 00:06:21,914 THIS AUTHORITY. >> GREG JACOB WAS VICE PRESIDENT PENCE'S LEGAL COUNSEL. HE WAS IN THE OVAL OFFICE 48 00:06:21,981 --> 00:06:29,122 HEARING EASTMAN READ BETWEEN THE LINES OF THE CONSTITUTION. >> SO, IT REALLY WAS HIM INVENTING SOMETHING WITHOUT ANY 49 00:06:29,188 --> 00:06:36,295 HISTORICAL ROOTS OR ANY HISTORICAL FOUNDATIONS AND THEN DESPERATELY TRYING TO FIND SOME HOOK IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT 50 00:06:36,362 --> 00:06:44,737 THAT NEITHER HISTORY NOR STRUCTURE NOR PRACTICE NOR COMMON SENSE SUPPORTED. >> EASTMAN DISAGREED WITH THAT 51 00:06:44,804 --> 00:06:53,913 AND EVEN PREDICTED THAT THE COURTS MIGHT NOT INTERVENE. >> IF THE COURT STAYED OUT OF IT, THERE IS NO OTHER ACTOR TO 52 00:06:53,980 --> 00:07:01,988 DECIDE THAT ISSUE. AND I EXPRESSED TO PROFESSOR EASTMAN AT OUR MEETING THE NEXT MORNING, ON JANUARY 5th, THAT IF 53 00:07:02,054 --> 00:07:09,228 IT'S NOT THE COURTS, IT'S EFFECTIVELY GOING TO BE DECIDED IN THE STREETS. >> GREG JACOB TOLD US VICE 54 00:07:09,295 --> 00:07:15,368 PRESIDENT PENCE NEVER BELIEVED HE HAD THE POWER TO DO ANYTHING BUT OPEN AND READ THE CERTIFIED VOTES. 55 00:07:15,434 --> 00:07:23,743 >> THE CERTIFICATE OF THE ELECTORS FOR PRESIDENT -- >> BACK IN 2001, PENCE WAS A FRESHMAN CONGRESSMAN WHEN VICE 56 00:07:23,810 --> 00:07:31,083 PRESIDENT AL GORE READ THE VOTES THAT DENIED GORE THE PRESIDENCY IN ONE OF THE CLOSEST ELECTIONS OF ALL TIME. 57 00:07:31,150 --> 00:07:38,791 >> MAY GOD BLESS OUR NEW PRESIDENT AND OUR NEW VICE PRESIDENT, AND MAY GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. 58 00:07:38,858 --> 00:07:46,365 >> DID YOU SEE, AT ANY POINT IN THIS PERIOD, THE VICE PRESIDENT RECONSIDER THAT VIEW OR WAIVER IN THAT DETERMINATION? 59 00:07:46,432 --> 00:07:49,635 >> NO. NO. THE VICE PRESIDENT NEVER WAVERED. 60 00:07:49,702 --> 00:07:56,776 IT NEVER MADE SINCE TO HIM THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT WOULD BE EMPOWERED TO DECIDE ISSUES LIKE THAT BY THE FRAMERS. 61 00:07:56,843 --> 00:08:03,482 AND HE SAID, LOOK, I KNOW THE RULES THAT JUDGES HAVE TO FOLLOW. YOU WOULD NEVER ALLOW A JUDGE TO 62 00:08:03,549 --> 00:08:09,622 PRESIDE OVER AND DECIDE AN ISSUE WHEN THEY HAVE THE KIND OF INTEREST I HAVE IN THIS CASE. I'M ON THE TICKET. 63 00:08:09,689 --> 00:08:17,263 OBVIOUSLY I WANT US TO WIN THIS ELECTION. HOW COULD IT POSSIBLY BE PROPER FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE 64 00:08:17,330 --> 00:08:23,836 UNITED STATES TO DECIDE SUCH AN IMPORTANT QUESTION, IN WHICH HE HAS A PERSONAL INTEREST LIKE THAT? 65 00:08:23,903 --> 00:08:29,842 >> WERE THERE OTHER LAWYERS IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHO AGREED WITH EASTMAN, OR WAS HE OUT THERE ALONE? 66 00:08:29,909 --> 00:08:37,750 >> I WAS NOT AWARE OF ANY LAWYERS WHO AGREED WITH HIM. >> BUT ONE PERSON DID AGREE. >> AND I HOPE MIKE PENCE COMES 67 00:08:37,817 --> 00:08:44,991 THROUGH FOR US. I HAVE TO TELL YOU. >> THE DAY OF THE EASTMAN MEETING, MR. TRUMP RAISED 68 00:08:45,057 --> 00:08:51,797 EXPECTATIONS THAT PENCE COULD FLIP THE ELECTION. >> OF COURSE, IF HE DOESN'T COME THROUGH, I WON'T LIKE HIM QUITE 69 00:08:51,864 --> 00:08:58,104 AS MUCH. >> IN A PRESS RELEASE THE DAY BEFORE THE COUNT, MR. TRUMP SAID, THE VICE PRESIDENT AND I 70 00:08:58,170 --> 00:09:04,744 ARE IN TOTAL AGREEMENT THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS THE POWER TO ACT. >> WHEN YOU SAW THAT STATEMENT, 71 00:09:04,810 --> 00:09:13,986 WHAT DID YOU THINK? >> I WAS OUTRAGED BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS CATEGORICALLY FALSE. I KNEW THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT 72 00:09:14,053 --> 00:09:21,627 HAD CONVEYED MULTIPLE TIMES TO THE PRESIDENT WHAT HIS POSITION WAS. AND I KNEW THAT THE STATEMENT 73 00:09:21,694 --> 00:09:30,636 WAS NOT ACCURATE. >> JOHN EASTMAN. >> ON JANUARY 6, JOHN EASTMAN TOLD THE PRESIDENT'S RALLY THAT 74 00:09:30,703 --> 00:09:35,975 GEORGIA VOTING MACHINES WERE RIGGED. >> YOU KNOW THE OLD WAY WAS TO HAVE A BUNCH OF BALLOTS SITTING 75 00:09:36,042 --> 00:09:43,182 IN A BOX UNDER THE FLOOR, AND WHEN YOU NEEDED MORE, YOU PULLED THEM OUT IN THE DARK OF NIGHT. THEY PUT THOSE BALLOTS IN A 76 00:09:43,249 --> 00:09:54,026 SECRET FOLDER IN THE MACHINES. >> THAT WAS FALSE. AND SO WERE CLAIMS EASTMAN MADE TO THE GEORGIA LEGISLATURE, 77 00:09:54,093 --> 00:10:00,533 ACCORDING TO AN INVESTIGATION BY GEORGIA'S REPUBLICAN SECRETARY OF STATE, WHO HIMSELF HAD VOTED FOR TRUMP. 78 00:10:00,599 --> 00:10:07,940 >> YOU SAID 2,500 CONVICTS. THE INVESTIGATION FOUND FOUR. YOU SAID 10,000 DEAD VOTERS. THE INVESTIGATION FOUND FOUR. 79 00:10:08,007 --> 00:10:13,145 IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT. >> YOU'VE NOW MISCHARACTERIZED BY TESTIMONY. 80 00:10:13,212 --> 00:10:19,852 AND I'M LOOKING TO LET YOU GET AWAY WITH THAT. THEY WERE BASED ON THE EXPERT ANALYSIS, AND IT DIDN'T SAY 81 00:10:19,919 --> 00:10:26,325 2,500 FELONS VOTED. IT SAID AS MANY AS. IT ACKNOWLEDGED THE LIMITATION OF THE DATA THEY HAD. 82 00:10:26,392 --> 00:10:31,630 AND THE ANALYSIS THAT WAS CONDUCTED, CONTRARY ANALYSIS PROVIDED BY THE SECRETARY OF STATE, WAS SIMPLY A PRESS 83 00:10:31,697 --> 00:10:37,436 CONFERENCE. I'D LOVE TO SEE THE DATA, AND WE WILL ADJUST THE NUMBERS AS THE COMPLAINT THAT WAS FILED THE 84 00:10:37,503 --> 00:10:43,175 NEXT DAY SAID WE WOULD ONCE WE GOT THE DATA. >> TOO LATE TO ADJUST THE NUMBERS NOW. 85 00:10:43,242 --> 00:10:49,949 YOU'VE ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THE LEGISLATURE, AND THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AS MANY AS 2,500 AND THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF 86 00:10:50,016 --> 00:10:55,121 FOUR. >> WE DON'T KNOW THE ACTUAL NUMBER IS FOUR BECAUSE THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAS DECLINED 87 00:10:55,187 --> 00:11:02,728 TO GIVE US THAT INFORMATION ON WHICH THAT WAS BASED. >> IF EASTMAN BELIEVED THERE WAS SO MUCH EVIDENCE, WHY HAS NO 88 00:11:02,795 --> 00:11:11,837 STATE REPORTED FRAUD THAT WOULD OVERTURN ITS ELECTION RESULT? >> I THINK WE ARE QUICKLY TURNING INTO A COUNTRY WHERE 89 00:11:11,904 --> 00:11:19,945 THERE'S THE PRO-GOVERNMENT PARTY OR THE UNI PARTY, AND FOLKS THAT ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE DIRECTION OUR COUNTRY IS GOING, 90 00:11:20,012 --> 00:11:25,885 THE MAGA MOVEMENT, THE TEA PARTY MOVEMENT BEFORE THAT, IF YOU WILL. AND THE FOLKS IN THOSE 91 00:11:25,951 --> 00:11:31,791 GOVERNMENT OFFICES TEND TO BE ON THE ONE SIDE OF THAT DISPUTE RATHER THAN THE OTHER. >> AND YOU SAY THEY'RE COVERING 92 00:11:31,857 --> 00:11:36,896 IT UP. >> WELL, CERTAINLY THEY'RE NOT INVESTIGATING TO THE LEVEL I THINK THE EVIDENCE WARRANTS. 93 00:11:36,962 --> 00:11:45,037 >> FURTHER INVESTIGATION WAS PURSUED BY GEORGIA PROSECUTORS. A GRAND JURY INDICTED 19 DEFENDANTS, INCLUDING THE FORMER 94 00:11:45,104 --> 00:11:57,416 PRESIDENT, ALLEGING A CONSPIRACY TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION, INCLUDING FALSE STATEMENTS TO PERSUADE GEORGIA LEGISLATORS TO 95 00:11:57,483 --> 00:12:03,823 REJECT LAWFUL ELECTORAL VOTES. >> WE KNOW DEAD PEOPLE VOTED. >> WITH ONLY HOURS TO GO BEFORE THE COUNT AT THE CAPITOL, 96 00:12:03,889 --> 00:12:10,563 EASTMAN'S DUBIOUS READING OF THE CONSTITUTION BECAME AN ULTIMATUM. >> AND ALL WE ARE DEMANDING OF 97 00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:19,305 VICE PRESIDENT PENCE IS THIS AFTERNOON AT 1:00 HE LET THE LEGISLATORS OF THE STATE LOOK INTO THIS SO WE GET TO THE 98 00:12:19,371 --> 00:12:25,211 BOTTOM OF IT AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE KNOW WHETHER WE HAVE CONTROL OF THE DIRECTION OF OUR GOVERNMENT OR NOT. 99 00:12:25,277 --> 00:12:34,453 AND ANYBODY THAT IS NOT WILLING TO STAND UP TO DO IT DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE IN THE OFFICE. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. 100 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:49,401 >> HOURS LATER, AFTER THE PRESIDENT'S SPEECH, RIOTERS WERE STALKING MIKE PENCE. >> [ CROWD CHANTING ] HANG MIKE 101 00:12:49,468 --> 00:12:55,774 PENCE. >> GREG JACOB, THE VICE PRESIDENT'S COUNSEL WAS IN THE CHAMBER AS PENCE WAS READING, 102 00:12:55,841 --> 00:13:04,350 NOT JUDGING THE VOTE. >> WE STARTED HEARING, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, GLASS 103 00:13:04,416 --> 00:13:11,790 SHATTERED. >> THE RIOT STOPPED THE COUNT. IN THE MOMENT, JACOB SENT EMAILS TO JOHN EASTMAN. 104 00:13:11,857 --> 00:13:19,298 THANKS TO YOUR BULL, WE ARE NOW UNDER SIEGE. HE CALLED EASTMAN A SERPENT IN THE EAR OF THE PRESIDENT. 105 00:13:19,365 --> 00:13:27,940 THE VIOLENCE CAUSED THE VOTE COUNT TO TAKE LONGER THAN THE RULES ALLOW, SO EASTMAN WROTE BACK TO JACOB WITH A PLEA. 106 00:13:28,007 --> 00:13:36,115 SINCE THE RULES WERE BROKEN ALREADY, WHY NOT BREAK ONE MORE AND SEND THE VOTES BACK TO THE STATES? 107 00:13:36,182 --> 00:13:43,155 >> THE PEOPLE WHO STORMED THE BUILDING BELIEVED THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT HAD AUTHORITIES THAT HE, IN FACT, DID NOT HAVE. 108 00:13:43,222 --> 00:13:50,029 AND THAT WAS A MOTIVATING FACTOR FOR THEM IN STORMING THE BUILDING. AND AFTER YOU SEE ALL OF THAT 109 00:13:50,095 --> 00:13:57,970 ACTUALLY PLAY OUT, THE KIND OF PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS THAT I HAD EXPRESSED TO HIM ON THE 5th, IF THE COURTS DON'T DECIDE THIS, 110 00:13:58,037 --> 00:14:01,574 IT'S GOING TO BE DECIDED IN THE STREETS. WELL, THE STREETS HAD COME TO US. 111 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:07,980 AND WE STILL WANTED US TO GO AHEAD AND PUSH AHEAD WITH HIS THEORY. >> WHICH TOLD YOU WHAT ABOUT 112 00:14:08,047 --> 00:14:13,686 JOHN EASTMAN? >> HE WAS MOSTLY CONCERNED WITH THE RESULTS AND DIDN'T REALLY CARE HOW MANY LAWS HAD TO BE 113 00:14:13,752 --> 00:14:20,125 BROKEN TO GET THERE. >> EASTMAN WAS FORCED TO RETIRE AS A PROFESSOR AT CHAPMAN UNIVERSITY. 114 00:14:20,192 --> 00:14:28,567 HE ASKED TO GET ON THE PRESIDENT'S PARDON LIST, BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. TODAY, HE'S FIGHTING DISBARMENT 115 00:14:28,634 --> 00:14:35,774 IN CALIFORNIA. AND THIS PAST AUGUST, HE TURNED HIMSELF IN IN GEORGIA AND HAS PLEADED NOT GUILTY. 116 00:14:35,841 --> 00:14:43,349 >> WHO IS THE JOHN EASTMAN THAT WE SEE IN THE MUG SHOT? >> THE JOHN EASTMAN YOU SEE IN THAT MUG SHOT IS ONE WHO REMAINS 117 00:14:43,415 --> 00:14:49,154 ASTOUNDED THAT WE HAVE SO CORRUPTED OUR CRIMINAL LAW THAT THIS IS EVEN BROUGHT. I HOPE IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME, 118 00:14:49,221 --> 00:14:55,394 WE GET OUR ACT TOGETHER AND UNDERSTAND THIS IS A BRIDGE TOO FAR IN OUR CRIMINLIZATION OF THE LAW. 119 00:14:55,461 --> 00:15:04,570 AND OUR CRIMINALIZATION OF OUR POLITICAL OPPOSITION. >> LAST YEAR, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS PASSED AN ELECTORAL 120 00:15:04,637 --> 00:15:13,178 COUNT LAW. IT SOMEHOW CLARIFIES THE VICE PRESIDENT'S ROLE IS TO READ, NOT JUDGE, THE VOTES. 121 00:15:19,985 --> 00:15:29,895 >>> EACH MONTH, ABOUT 71 MILLION AMERICANS, RETIREES, DISABLED WORKERS, AND OTHERS, RECEIVE CHECKS FROM SOCIAL SECURITY. 122 00:15:29,962 --> 00:15:37,269 BUT EACH YEAR ABOUT A MILLION PEOPLE GET SOMETHING ELSE IN THE MAIL, A BILL. THEY'RE TOLD THEY OWE THE 123 00:15:37,336 --> 00:15:41,507 GOVERNMENT MONEY, SOMETIMES TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, BECAUSE THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION MISCALCULATED 124 00:15:41,573 --> 00:15:47,479 THEIR BENEFITS AND PAID THEM TOO MUCH. IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE, AND IT CAN TAKE YEARS, EVEN DECADES, 125 00:15:47,546 --> 00:15:53,719 FOR THESE UNEXPECTED DEBTS TO SUDDENLY COME TO LIGHT. IT OFTEN DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S NOT THE RECIPIENT'S FAULT. 126 00:15:53,786 --> 00:16:03,495 THEY STILL HAVE TO PAY. FEW PEOPLE REALIZE IT, BUT SOCIAL SECURITY'S MISTAKES ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. 127 00:16:03,562 --> 00:16:09,735 >> LAST YEAR AT STEVEN AND BECKY SWORD'S HOME IN CHICAGO, A LETTER ARRIVED FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION. 128 00:16:09,802 --> 00:16:19,044 WHEN BECKY SWORD READ IT, SHE WAS STUNNED TO DISCOVER THAT SHE AND HER HUSBAND OWED SOCIAL SECURITY $51,887 AND WERE 129 00:16:19,111 --> 00:16:24,049 EXPECTED TO REPAY IT WITHIN 30 DAYS. >> THAT LETTER CHANGED YOUR LIFE. 130 00:16:24,116 --> 00:16:28,854 >> OH, YEAH. >> ARE YOU SCARED? >> HE'S THINKING WE'RE GOING TO LOSE OUR HOUSE. 131 00:16:28,921 --> 00:16:35,894 WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? I MEAN, WE WERE VERY SCARED. >> WHEN WE SPOKE WITH STEVEN AND BECKY SWORD IN AUGUST, STEVEN 132 00:16:35,961 --> 00:16:46,238 WAS MAKING $16 AN HOUR AS A SECURITY GUARD. BECKY WAS WORKING DAYS AS AN OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY ASSISTANT 133 00:16:46,305 --> 00:16:53,078 IN A NURSING HOME. THEY'RE 62 YEARS OLD AND HAVE WORKED FULL TIME MOST OF THEIR LIVES. 134 00:16:53,145 --> 00:17:01,420 BUT FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW, STEVEN HAS BEEN DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF A PANCREATIC DISEASE THAT NEARLY KILLED HIM IN 2016. 135 00:17:01,487 --> 00:17:05,858 >> HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THE HOSPITAL FOR? >> ABOUT 105 DAYS. WHEN I LEFT THE HOSPITAL, IT 136 00:17:05,924 --> 00:17:10,896 TOOK ME ABOUT TWO MONTHS TO LEARN TO EAT AND WALK AGAIN. >> STEVEN STARTED RECEIVING SOCIAL SECURITY DISABILITY 137 00:17:10,963 --> 00:17:18,971 CHECKS IN 2017, AS HE RECOVERED AND RETURNED TO WORK. THE AGENCY'S RULES ARE COMPLICATED, BUT BECKY FAXED 138 00:17:19,037 --> 00:17:26,879 STEVEN'S PAY STUBBS TO SOCIAL SECURITY SO THE AGENCY COULD MONITOR HIS EARNINGS AND ELIGIBILITY. 139 00:17:26,945 --> 00:17:33,085 >> I KNEW THEY WERE GETTING IT. >> IN RETURN, SOCIAL SECURITY SENT THE SWORDS LETTERS LIKE THIS ONE, SAYING IT HAD 140 00:17:33,152 --> 00:17:40,025 INCREASED STEVEN'S BENEFITS TO GIVE HIM CREDIT FOR HIS 2019 EARNINGS. >> IS THE IMPRESSION YOU GOT 141 00:17:40,092 --> 00:17:46,932 FROM THAT THAT THEY'RE EXAMINING THE PAY STUBS AND THEY'RE PAYING ATTENTION? >> DEFINITELY. 142 00:17:46,999 --> 00:17:52,504 THEY'RE INCREASING IT. >> THE LETTER THE SWORDS GOT LAST YEAR FROM SOCIAL SECURITY SAID STEVEN SHOULDN'T HAVE 143 00:17:52,571 --> 00:18:00,712 GOTTEN ANY MONEY AT THE TIME THE AGENCY GAVE HIM THAT INCREASE. STEVEN AND BECKY OWED MORE THAN $50,000, THE AGENCY SAID, 144 00:18:00,779 --> 00:18:06,819 BECAUSE WE DID NOT STOP HIS CHECKS ABOUT THREE YEARS SOONER. >> HAS ANYONE IN SOCIAL SECURITY EVER, SORT OF, APOLOGIZED? 145 00:18:06,885 --> 00:18:12,024 >> NO. THEY TAKE NO BLAME AT ALL. >> THEY SAY IT'S OUR FAULT. >> THEY'RE SAYING YOU SHOULD 146 00:18:12,090 --> 00:18:16,762 HAVE KNOWN -- >> THAT WE'RE MAKING TOO MUCH MONEY. >> -- THAT SOCIAL SECURITY WAS 147 00:18:16,829 --> 00:18:20,699 GIVING YOU TOO MUCH MONEY EVEN THOUGH SOCIAL SECURITY DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE GIVING YOU TOO MUCH MONEY. 148 00:18:20,766 --> 00:18:24,970 >> YEAH. WHICH IS STRANGE. YOU'RE SENDING IN YOUR PAY STUBS. 149 00:18:25,037 --> 00:18:31,743 SOMEONE HAS TO FILE THAT. >> WHEN WE ASKED THEM, THEY SAID, WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT THAT EVERY MONTH. 150 00:18:31,810 --> 00:18:39,485 THEY'RE NOT EVEN LOOKING EVERY YEAR. I COULD SEE MAKING A MISTAKE AFTER A FEW MONTHS, BUT A FEW 151 00:18:39,551 --> 00:18:44,189 YEARS. THEY BLAMED IT ON COVID. THEY BLAMED IT ON BEING UNDERSTAFFED. 152 00:18:44,256 --> 00:18:48,527 TO ME THEY'RE SAYING IT'S THEIR FAULT. >> THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION TOLD US ITS 153 00:18:48,594 --> 00:18:53,866 PRIVACY RULES PREVENT IT FROM COMMENTING ON INDIVIDUAL CASES LIKE THE SWORDS. AND NO ONE FROM THE AGENCY WOULD 154 00:18:53,932 --> 00:19:04,409 GIVE US AN ON-CAMERA INTERVIEW. BUT KILOLO KIJAKAZI GAVE THIS TESTIMONY BEFORE A CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE LATE LAST MONTH. 155 00:19:04,476 --> 00:19:20,459 >> HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE RECEIVING OVERPAYMENT NOTICES IN A YEAR? >> FOR FY-2022, 1,028,389. FOR FY-2023, 986,912. 156 00:19:20,526 --> 00:19:27,266 >> SEEMS LIKE AN AWFUL LOT. >> NOBODY KNOWS THIS IS HAPPENING TO SO MANY PEOPLE. >> THIS IS NOT A STORY SOCIAL 157 00:19:27,332 --> 00:19:33,071 SECURITY WANTS TO PUBLICIZE. >> OH, NO. >> NO. >> TERRY SAVAGE WRITES A 158 00:19:33,138 --> 00:19:41,513 NATIONALLY SYNDICATED COLUMN ON PERSONAL VIE NANCE. LAURENCE KOTLIKOFF CREATED SOFTWARE TO HELP PEOPLE MAXIMIZE 159 00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:48,820 THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS. TOGETHER, THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO LAW ATTENTION TO WHAT THEY CALL SOCIAL SECURITY HORROR STORIES, 160 00:19:48,887 --> 00:19:56,995 CAUSED LARGELY, THEY SAY, BY THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION'S OWN MISTAKES. >> THEIR MANTRA, THEIR RULE, IS 161 00:19:57,062 --> 00:20:05,337 OUR MISTAKE IS YOUR MISTAKE. AND YOU CAN APPEAL IT OR ASK FOR A WAIVER. THE ONLY WAY THEY WILL WAIVE 162 00:20:05,404 --> 00:20:13,612 THIS IS IF YOU ARE INDIGENT, REALLY, REALLY POOR. >> THE WORST PART OF IT IS THEY HAVE ALL THE POWER BECAUSE THEY 163 00:20:13,679 --> 00:20:20,185 SAY, IF YOU DON'T PAY US BACK, WE'RE JUST GOING TO CUT YOUR BENEFIT CHECK. IMAGINE. 164 00:20:20,252 --> 00:20:26,892 PEOPLE LIVE ON THOSE CHECKS. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU GET NO CHECK OR A SMALL AMOUNT? >> IF SOMEONE'S BEEN PAID TOO 165 00:20:26,959 --> 00:20:32,564 MUCH IN SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS, WHY SHOULDN'T THEY HAVE TO PAY IT BACK? >> BECAUSE YOU RELIED ON IT SO 166 00:20:32,631 --> 00:20:40,272 YOU MAY HAVE DECIDED TO RETIRE EARLY OR TO SPEND THE MONEY ON YOUR CHILD'S TUITION. >> OVERPAYMENTS HAVE EXISTED FOR 167 00:20:40,339 --> 00:20:47,379 DECADES AND CAUSED PEOPLE A LOT OF FINANCIAL PAIN. BUT FIXING THE PROBLEM HAS NEVER BEEN A HIGH PRIORITY ON CAPITOL 168 00:20:47,446 --> 00:20:54,019 HILL. IN 2015, CONGRESS DID APPROVE A MEASURE TO REDUCE OVERPAYMENTS BY GIVING SOCIAL SECURITY MORE 169 00:20:54,086 --> 00:21:02,194 TIMELY ACCESS TO PAYROLL DATA. BUT EIGHT YEARS LATER, THE AGENCY STILL HASN'T PUT THE NEW SYSTEM IN PLACE. 170 00:21:02,260 --> 00:21:08,333 AGING TECHNOLOGY AND STAFF SHORTAGES HAVE TAKEN A TOLL ON SOCIAL SECURITY. LAST YEAR, THE AGENCY'S 171 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:15,140 WORKFORCE HIT A 25-YEAR LOW, AS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CLAIMING BENEFITS KEPT GOING UP. WHEN WE TOOK A CLOSE LOOK AT 172 00:21:15,207 --> 00:21:22,014 SOCIAL SECURITY'S ANNUAL REPORTS TO CONGRESS, WE DISCOVERED SOMETHING ELSE HAS BEEN GOING UP AS WELL, THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE 173 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:30,989 AGENCY HAS BEEN CLAWING BACK FROM THE CHECKS OF PEOPLE WITH OVERPAYMENTS. JEAN RODRIGUEZ, WHO'S 73 YEARS 174 00:21:31,056 --> 00:21:37,162 OLD, TOLD US HER RETIREMENT CHECKS HAD BEEN WITHHELD FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS. A FORMER SCHOOL CAFETERIA 175 00:21:37,229 --> 00:21:43,769 WORKER, SHE STARTED RECEIVING BENEFITS IN 2014. BUT FOUR YEARS LATER, SHE AND HER HUSBAND, GLENN, WERE ASKED 176 00:21:43,835 --> 00:21:48,807 TO COME TO THE LOCAL SOCIAL SECURITY OFFICE IN VIRGINIA BEACH, VIRGINIA, TO SPEAK WITH A REPRESENTATIVE. 177 00:21:48,874 --> 00:21:54,846 >> AND HE SAYS, WE HAVE A SMALL PROBLEM. >> HOW MUCH DID HE SAY THEY HAD OVERPAID YOU? 178 00:21:54,913 --> 00:22:01,186 >> $72,000. >> THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A SMALL PROBLEM. >> NO. 179 00:22:01,253 --> 00:22:05,190 IT WASN'T. WE WERE BOTH DEVASTATED. >> WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU HAPPENED? 180 00:22:05,257 --> 00:22:12,130 >> SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, THEY MADE A COMBINATION OF FOUR OTHER PEOPLE IN ADDITION TO MY NUMBERS. 181 00:22:12,197 --> 00:22:19,071 >> SO, THEY WERE GIVING YOU BENEFITS BASED NOT JUST ON YOUR SALARY BUT ON FOUR OTHER PEOPLE'S SALARY ALL COMBINED. 182 00:22:19,137 --> 00:22:24,476 >> RIGHT. >> HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? >> GOOD QUESTION. DON'T KNOW HOW THEY DID IT. 183 00:22:24,543 --> 00:22:33,985 >> DID SOCIAL SECURITY ADMIT TO YOU THAT THIS WAS THEIR FAULT? >> YES, THEY DID. >> BUT THE AGENCY SAID THE 184 00:22:34,052 --> 00:22:41,026 RODRIGUEZES HAD TO PAY THE MONEY BACK ANYWAY BECAUSE THEY COULD AFFORD TO DO. JEAN AND GLENN OWN THEIR HOME, 185 00:22:41,093 --> 00:22:47,933 AND GLENN GETS A PENSION FROM THE NAVY. >> IF IT WAS SOMETHING I KNEW I DID TOTALLY WRONG, THEY HAVE A 186 00:22:47,999 --> 00:22:53,305 RIGHT TO COME AFTER ME. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HOW THEY CALCULATED IT AND THEN THEY WAITED FOUR YEARS TO FIGURE IT 187 00:22:53,371 --> 00:22:58,810 OUT. >> IN A STATEMENT, THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION TOLD US, OUR PAYMENT ACCURACY RATES ARE 188 00:22:58,877 --> 00:23:05,951 HIGH, YET EVEN SMALL ERROR RATES ADD UP TO SUBSTANTIAL IMPROPER PAYMENT AMOUNTS. THE AGENCY SAID IT'S REQUIRED BY 189 00:23:06,017 --> 00:23:13,058 LAW TO RECOVER THIS MONEY AND ADDED THAT OVERPAYMENTS ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE AGENCY'S FAULT. THEY CAN HAPPEN WHEN A 190 00:23:13,125 --> 00:23:20,398 BENEFICIARY DOES NOT TIMELY REPORT WORK OR OTHER FINANCIAL INFORMATION. THERE'S NO STATUTE OF 191 00:23:20,465 --> 00:23:26,538 LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG SOCIAL SECURITY CAN WAIT TO COLLECT AN OVERPAYMENT. TWO YEARS AGO, ROY FARMER OF 192 00:23:26,605 --> 00:23:31,710 GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN, GOT A LETTER FROM SOCIAL SECURITY ASKING HIM WHETHER HE'D FORGOTTEN TO PAY A DEBT HE 193 00:23:31,777 --> 00:23:35,981 DIDN'T KNOW HE HAD. >> THIS IS AN ALLEGED OVERPAYMENT FROM 20 YEARS AGO. >> YES, SIR. 194 00:23:36,047 --> 00:23:42,587 >> WHEN YOU WERE 11 OR 12 YEARS OLD. >> CORRECT. >> ROY FARMER GREW UP IN ROYAL 195 00:23:42,654 --> 00:23:48,260 CADILLAC, MICHIGAN, IN A FAMILY OF SIX THAT STRUGGLED TO MAKE ENDS MEET. >> WE ENDED UP NEAR HOMELESSNESS 196 00:23:48,326 --> 00:23:54,766 A COUPLE OF TIMES, AT ONE POINT LIVING, SIX OF US IN A CAMPER TRAILER. >> HE WAS BORN WITH CEREBRAL 197 00:23:54,833 --> 00:24:02,340 PALSY. >> I HAD LEG BRACES. I HAD TO WALK WITH A CHILD SIZE VERSION OF AN OLD PERSON WALKER. 198 00:24:02,407 --> 00:24:08,113 >> AND YOU HAD SURGERIES. YOU HAD DOCTORS VISITS. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> YOU HAD IT TREATED. 199 00:24:08,180 --> 00:24:13,485 >> THANKFULLY THEY WERE ABLE TO GET ME TO A POINT WHERE I COULD LIVE A MORE OR LESS NORMAL LIFE WITH SOME LIMITATIONS. 200 00:24:13,552 --> 00:24:20,492 >> HE'S 33 YEARS OLD NOW AND WORKS FULL TIME. BUT WHEN HE WAS A CHILD, HIS MOTHER RECEIVED BENEFITS ON HIS 201 00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:25,130 BEHALF. SOCIAL SECURITY TOLD HIM THAT WHEN HE WAS 11 YEARS OLD, THE AGENCY DETERMINED HE WAS NO 202 00:24:25,197 --> 00:24:34,406 LONGER MEDICALLY ELIGIBLE FOR BENEFITS, AND HIS MOTHER RECEIVED $4,902 TOO MUCH. HIS MOTHER DIED A FEW YEARS AGO, 203 00:24:34,472 --> 00:24:44,449 AND THE AGENCY IS INSISTING HE PAY BACK THE MONEY BECAUSE IT BELIEVES HE CAN AFFORD TO DO SO. >> COULD YOU AFFORD $4,902? 204 00:24:44,516 --> 00:24:54,559 >> NO, SIR. THAT MUCH IS ABOUT A SIXTH OF MY ANNUAL PAY. >> ROY FARMER COULDN'T FIND A 205 00:24:54,626 --> 00:24:59,898 LAWYER TO HELP HIM. THERE'S LITTLE FINANCIAL INCENTIVE FOR ATTORNEYS TO TAKE ON THESE CASES. 206 00:24:59,965 --> 00:25:06,204 IT TOOK FARMER NINE MONTHS TO GET THE DOCUMENTS IN HIS SOCIAL SECURITY FILE. HE WAS LOOKING FOR THE AGENCY'S 207 00:25:06,271 --> 00:25:13,178 EVIDENCE HE WAS NO LONGER MEDICALLY ELIGIBLE FOR BENEFITS WHEN HE WAS 11 YEARS OLD. BUT HE SAYS THERE AS NONE. 208 00:25:13,245 --> 00:25:20,719 >> THEY TOLD ME, WE PROBABLY HAD IT AT SOME POINT, BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT NOW. >> AND THEY ADMIT THERE'S NO 209 00:25:20,785 --> 00:25:24,489 EVIDENCE IT'S YOUR FAULT, BUT THEY'RE STILL COMING AFTER YOU FOR IT. >> YES, SIR. 210 00:25:24,556 --> 00:25:29,127 >> PEOPLE AT SOCIAL SECURITY HAVE TOLD US, LOOK, THIS IS A LAW, THIS HAS TO BE CHANGED THROUGH CONGRESS. 211 00:25:29,194 --> 00:25:40,705 >> IT'S NOT, ANDERSON, BECAUSE THE LAW SAYS THAT IF EQUITY AND GOOD CONSCIENCE DEMANDS THAT THE CLAWBACK BE WAIVED, IT SHOULD BE 212 00:25:40,772 --> 00:25:45,210 WAIVED. >> LAURENCE KOTLIKOFF, THE ECONOMIST WHO HAS WRITTEN ABOUT OVERPAYMENTS, IS TALKING ABOUT A 213 00:25:45,277 --> 00:25:51,082 SPECIFIC PART OF THE SOCIAL SECURIY ACT THAT SAYS THE AGENCY SHOULD NOT RECOVER AN OVERPAYMENT IF DOING SO WOULD BE 214 00:25:51,149 --> 00:25:57,155 AGAINST EQUITY AND GOOD CONSCIENCE. THE PROBLEM, HE SAYS, IS THAT SOCIAL SECURITY INTERPRETS THAT 215 00:25:57,222 --> 00:26:02,961 PHRASE IN A VERY NARROW WAY. >> SO, THE AGENCY ITSELF, SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, HAS A LOT OF DISCRETION. 216 00:26:03,028 --> 00:26:09,601 >> ABSOLUTELY. >> OH, SURE, THEY DO. >> FINANCIALLY, THE LONG-TERM PICTURE IS NOT GOOD. 217 00:26:09,668 --> 00:26:14,873 AND THEY'VE TRAINED THE STAFF, LOOK, YOUR JOB IS TO COLLECT EVERY PENNY YOU CAN NO MATTER WHAT. 218 00:26:14,940 --> 00:26:21,980 >> THE SOCIAL SECURITY TRUST FUND FOR RETIREMENT AND DISABILITY BENEFITS IS EXPECTED TO BE DEPLETED AROUND 2035 219 00:26:22,047 --> 00:26:29,721 BECAUSE THE BENEFITS BEING PAID OUT ARE GREATER THAN THE PAYROLL TAXES COMING IN. BUT KOTLIKOFF AND SAVAGE ARGUE 220 00:26:29,788 --> 00:26:35,427 THAT CLAWING BACK MONEY FROM THE ELDERLY AND DISABLED ISN'T GOING TO MAKE MUCH OF A DENT IN THAT PROBLEM. 221 00:26:35,493 --> 00:26:41,666 THEY SAY THERE ARE SOME SIMPLE THINGS CONGRESS AND THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION COULD DO TO ALLEVIATE THE STRESS AND 222 00:26:41,733 --> 00:26:48,640 FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY CAUSED BY OVERPAYMENTS. FOR EXAMPLE -- >> SHOULDN'T THERE BE A STATUTE 223 00:26:48,707 --> 00:26:55,780 OF LIMITATIONS SO THAT AFTER 18 MONTHS, IT'S THEIR MISTAKE AND THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT, NOT THE PERSON WHO MISTAKENLY 224 00:26:55,847 --> 00:27:00,385 RECEIVED AND LIVED ON THAT BENEFIT CHECK? >> IF IT'S MORE THAN A YEAR OR TWO -- 225 00:27:00,452 --> 00:27:07,225 >> JUST WAIVE IT. JUST SAY, OUR MISTAKE, YOU'RE FINE. > ROY FARMER IN MICHIGAN HAS 226 00:27:07,292 --> 00:27:16,534 BEEN WAITING FOUR MONTHS TO APPEAL HIS CASE FOR AN ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE WHO WORKS FOR SOCIAL SECURITY. 227 00:27:16,601 --> 00:27:24,609 JEAN AND GLENN RODRIGUEZ TOLD US THEY'VE BEEN WAITING FOUR YEARS. AS FOR THE SWORDS IN CHICAGO, STEVEN AND BECKY TOLD US THEY 228 00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:29,547 WERE TIRED OF FIGHTING THE GOVERNMENT AND HAD DECIDED NOT TO APPEAL THE MATTER ANY FURTHER. 229 00:27:29,614 --> 00:27:36,254 >> I JUST FIGURE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE UP OUR RETIREMENT FUNDS. >> THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU 230 00:27:36,321 --> 00:27:43,862 CAN -- >> THAT'S THE ONLY WAY. THEY SAID WE'D HAVE TO PAY IT BACK IN THREE YEAR'S TIME. 231 00:27:43,928 --> 00:27:50,802 WE'D HAVE TO COME UP WITH $1,400 A MONTH TO PAY IT BACK WECHLT DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY. >> WHEN STEVEN SWORD WAS NOT 232 00:27:50,869 --> 00:27:57,275 WORKING THE NIGHT SHIFT AND BECKY SWORD WAS NOT WORKING THE DAY SHIFT, THEY WERE PLANNING TO HAND OVER MOST OF THE MONEY THEY 233 00:27:57,342 --> 00:28:02,547 SAVED FOR RETIREMENT TO THE GOVERNMENT AGENCY CHARGED WITH SUPPORTING AMERICANS IN THEIR OLD AGE. 234 00:28:02,614 --> 00:28:07,485 ALL THE PEOPLE WE INTERVIEWED FOR THIS STORY ASKED THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION TO WAIVE THEIR DEBTS. 235 00:28:07,552 --> 00:28:16,594 THEIR REQUESTS WERE DENIED. BUT AFTER WE ASKED THE AGENCY ABOUT THESE CASES, SOCIAL SECURITY TOLD THE SWORDS, THE 236 00:28:16,661 --> 00:28:21,499 RODRIGUEZS, AND ROY FARMER, THAT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY THE MONEY BACK. THE AGENCY SAYS IT'S NOW 237 00:28:21,566 --> 00:28:26,871 REVIEWING ITS POLICIES AND PROCEDURES REGARDING OVERPAYMENTS. 238 00:28:31,209 --> 00:28:48,827 >>> HOW TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT OVERPAID BY >>> WITH EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS ON THE RISE ACROSS THE GLOBE, 239 00:28:48,893 --> 00:28:57,635 LIKE THE RARE CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE THAT HIT MEXICO 11 DAYS AGO, WE WERE INTERESTED IN A STUDY ON A REMOTE ISLAND VERY 240 00:28:57,702 --> 00:29:07,846 FEW PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO VISIT, WHERE SCIENTISTS ARE STUDYING HOW THE STRESS OF THESE ENVIRONMENTAL CRISES AFFECTS 241 00:29:07,912 --> 00:29:22,360 LONGEVITY AND OVERALL HEALTH. THE SUBJECTS ARE MONKEYS, RHESUS MACAQUE MONKEYS, BECAUSE 94% OF THEIR DNA IS THE SAME AS HUMANS. 242 00:29:22,427 --> 00:29:31,469 THEY SURVIVED WITH RELATIVE ENVIRONMENTAL STABILITY UNTIL SIX YEARS AGO, WHEN THE ISLAND WAS HIT WITH A DEVASTATING 243 00:29:31,536 --> 00:29:38,576 STORM. AFTER TAKING TESTS FOR TUBERCULOSIS, MEASLES, AND COVID, WE WERE ALLOWED TO VISIT 244 00:29:38,643 --> 00:29:47,018 CAYO, SANTIAGO, OR MONKEY ISLAND, OFF THE COAST OF PUERTO RICO. THERE ARE ROUGHLY 1,800 MONKEYS 245 00:29:47,085 --> 00:29:55,226 ON CAYO. THEY LIVE IN ISOLATION IN WHAT IS A NATURAL LABORATORY HALFWAY BETWEEN CAPTIVITY AND THE WAY 246 00:29:55,293 --> 00:30:01,799 THEY WOULD LIVE IN THE WILD. >> ARE THEY FIGHTING? >> YEAH. SHE'S LOOKING AROUND AND 247 00:30:01,866 --> 00:30:11,242 SCREAMING FOR HELP, TRYING TO GET OTHERS TO COME TO HER AID. >> WOW. >> BIOLOGIST JAMES HIGHAM OF NYU 248 00:30:11,309 --> 00:30:19,417 AND NOAH SNYDER-MACKLER OF ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY, ARE PART OF A TEAM OF INVESTIGATORS IN THIS LONG-TERM RESEARCH 249 00:30:19,484 --> 00:30:25,290 PROJECT. >> WHAT'S THE LIFE SPAN USUALLY? >> THE LIFE SPAN HERE ON THE ISLAND FOR THE FEMALES, THE 250 00:30:25,356 --> 00:30:31,462 MEDIAN LIFE SPAN, IS ABOUT 18 YEARS. AND MALES, ABOUT 15 YEARS. >> DO THEY HAVE -- IS THERE A 251 00:30:31,529 --> 00:30:38,803 PREDATOR? >> NO PREDATORS HERE. >> ANOTHER WAY LIFE HERE IS UNLIKE THE WILD IS THAT THESE 252 00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:49,480 GUYS ARE SERVED THEIR MEALS EVERY MORNING. RESEARCHERS TELL US THERE'S A HIERARCHY. 253 00:30:49,547 --> 00:30:56,754 THE HIGHEST RANKING MONKEYS GET TO EAT FIRST. >> I'VE EVEN SEE HIGH RANKING INDIVIDUALS GO UP TO A LOW 254 00:30:56,821 --> 00:31:03,761 RANKING INDIVIDUAL WHO IS EATING FOOD IN THEIR MOUTH, AND PULL THEIR MOUTH OPEN AND TAKE THE FOOD OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS. 255 00:31:03,828 --> 00:31:11,502 >> NO. WHAT DO THEY GET? >> PURINA MONKEY CHOW. >> THERE'S MONKEY CHOW? 256 00:31:11,569 --> 00:31:21,980 >> MADE BY PURINA. >> OH, MY GOODNESS. >> RHESUS MONKEYS ARE COMMONLY USED FOR RESEARCH BECAUSE THEIR 257 00:31:22,046 --> 00:31:30,655 OUR CLOSE RELATIVES. >> THEY HAVE SYSTEMS LIKE US, EYES LIKE OURS, LUNGS AND HEARTS THAT ARE LIKE OURS. 258 00:31:30,722 --> 00:31:43,868 >> THESE RHESUS MACAQUE MONKEYS, THEIR ANCESTORS, CAME FROM INDIA IN 1938. >> AMERICAN PRIMATOLOGIST 259 00:31:43,935 --> 00:31:54,646 CLARENCE CARPENTER TOOK 500 OF THEM ON A GRUELING 14,000-MILE SEA VOYAGE THAT LASTED 51 DAYS. HE WANTED TO CREATE A 260 00:31:54,712 --> 00:32:02,086 NATURALISTIC RESEARCH FACILITY TO STUDY THE MONKEY'S SOCIAL AND SEXUAL BEHAVIORS. THEIR EARLY YEARS HERE WERE 261 00:32:02,153 --> 00:32:09,627 TOUGH. MANY DIED FROM DISEASE. BUT ENOUGH OF THEM LIVED ON SO THAT BY THE 1950s, SCIENTISTS 262 00:32:09,694 --> 00:32:19,671 BEGAN TATTOOING THEM AND TAKING A DAILY CENSUS. THAT METICULOUS RECORDKEEPING HAS CONTINUED WITH TODAY'S 263 00:32:19,737 --> 00:32:28,780 MONKEYS, ALL OF WHOM DESCENDED FROM THE ORIGINAL GROUP, GIVING SCIENTISTS RARE ACCESS TO MORE THAN SIX DECADES OF THEIR 264 00:32:28,846 --> 00:32:36,821 BIOLOGICAL AND BEHAVIORAL DATA. ONE OF THE THINGS THEY LEARNED IS THAT THEY'RE HIGHLY ADAPTABLE, ACCLIMATING QUICKLY 265 00:32:36,888 --> 00:32:44,128 TO THE ISLAND. THEY ALSO LEARNED THAT THEY CAN BE QUITE AGGRESSIVE, ESPECIALLY AROUND FOOD AND DURING THE 266 00:32:44,195 --> 00:32:48,800 MATING SEASON. >> ARE THESE MONKEYS INTELLIGENT? >> SURE. 267 00:32:48,866 --> 00:32:55,673 THEY'RE PRETTY INTELLIGENT. THEY'RE SOCIALLY INTELLIGENT. >> HOW SIMILAR TO US ARE THEY IN HOW THEY LIVE? 268 00:32:55,740 --> 00:33:01,279 >> THEY FORM REALLY STRONG SOCIAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEIR BEST FRIENDS AND THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS. 269 00:33:01,346 --> 00:33:09,020 >> THEY HAVE BEST FRIENDS? >> SOME CLOSE FRIENDS, SOME BEST FRIENDS, RIGHT? >> RHESUS MONKEYS LIVE IN 270 00:33:09,087 --> 00:33:15,126 FEMALE-LED SOCIETIES. MOTHERS, DAUGHTERS, AUNTS, AND GRANDMOTHERS STICK TOGETHER IN GROUPS, WHILE THE MALES LEAVE 271 00:33:15,193 --> 00:33:25,136 WHEN THEY REACH MATURITY AND JOIN OTHER TROOPS FOR BREEDING. FEW PEOPLE KNOW THE TROOP TENSIONS AND ALLEGIANCES BETTER 272 00:33:25,203 --> 00:33:35,880 THAN RESEARCH ASSISTANTS DANIEL PHILLIPS AND JOSUE NEGRON, WHO HAVE WORKED ON CAYO FOR YEARS. THEY ARRIVE EVERY MORNING BY 273 00:33:35,947 --> 00:33:46,257 BOAT AT 7:00 A.M. AND FOR THE NEXT SEVEN HOURS, THEY DOCUMENT THINGS LIKE AGGRESSION, GROOMING, VIGILANCE, 274 00:33:46,324 --> 00:33:54,432 AND FEEDING. >> DO YOU EVER GET TO KNOW INDIVIDUALS, IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW, THAT MONKEY VERSUS THAT 275 00:33:54,499 --> 00:33:59,036 ONE? >> YEAH. WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THEM RIGHT AWAY BECAUSE I NEED TO KNOW, 276 00:33:59,103 --> 00:34:07,845 LIKE, WHO IS INTERACTING WITH WHO, HOW THEY, LIKE, GROOM EACH OTHER OR ATTACK EACH OTHER. >> AND HOW CAN YOU TELL THE 277 00:34:07,912 --> 00:34:12,049 DIFFERENCE? WHAT ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT YOU SEE? >> YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCES 278 00:34:12,116 --> 00:34:19,223 ON EVEN HOW THEY WALK, HOW THEY MOVE. THEIR EVEN FACES HAVE DIFFERENCES. 279 00:34:19,290 --> 00:34:28,599 >> IN OTHER WORDS, THEIR FACES BECOME AS ORDINARY, IN A WAY, TO YOUR EYES AS HUMAN FACES. >> YES. 280 00:34:28,666 --> 00:34:35,273 >> THEY RECOGNIZE FAMILIES. YOUR FACE IS FAMILIAR. YOU SHOULD BE THE SON OF THIS FEMALE. 281 00:34:35,339 --> 00:34:50,021 >> EVERYTHING CHANGED FOR THE RESEARCH AND THE MONKEYS WHEN HURRICANE MARIA SLAMMED INTO PUERTO RICO IN SEPTEMBER 2017. 282 00:34:50,087 --> 00:34:59,163 155-MILE-AN-HOUR WINDS SMASHED INTO HOMES AND OFFICE BUILDINGS, DESTROYING EVERYTHING IN SIGHT, INCLUDING THE POWER GRID AND 283 00:34:59,230 --> 00:35:09,807 COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS. NEARLY 3,000 PEOPLE DIED. THERE WAS NO WAY FOR THE TEAM TO GET TO MONKEY ISLAND. 284 00:35:09,874 --> 00:35:19,317 ANGELINA RUIZ-LAMBIDES, THE THEN SCIENTIFIC DIRECTOR OF CAYO, SEVEN MONTHS PREGNANT AT THE TIME, SHELTERED IN HER HOME 285 00:35:19,383 --> 00:35:25,056 OUTSIDE SAN JUAN WITH HER HUSBAND AND TWO YOUNG CHILDREN. >> YOU THOUGHT THE MONKEYS WERE ALL GOING TO DIE. 286 00:35:25,122 --> 00:35:32,597 >> YEAH, WE THOUGHT THE MONKEYS WERE GOING TO DIE. >> JAMES HIGHAM AND NOAH SNYDER-MACKLER COULDN'T GET ANY 287 00:35:32,663 --> 00:35:37,435 NEWS ABOUT THEIR COLLEAGUES OR THE MONKEYS. SO, TWO DAYS AFTER THE STORM, THE TEAM CAME UP WITH AN IDEA. 288 00:35:37,502 --> 00:35:45,276 >> AND YOU HIRED A HELICOPTER. >> WE HIRED A HELICOPTER. >> THEY ENLISTED THE PILOT TO FLY OVER CAYO AND DO A SURVEY. 289 00:35:45,343 --> 00:35:50,781 AND THEY HAD A LIST OF QUESTIONS. >> CAN HE SEE ANY MONKEYS? ARE THEY ALIVE? 290 00:35:50,848 --> 00:35:56,721 WHAT IS THE STATUS OF THE VEGETATION? ARE THERE STANDING POOLS OF WATER THAT THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO 291 00:35:56,787 --> 00:36:03,160 DRINK? >> ANGELINA, WHO HAD DECIDED TO GO UP WITH THE PILOT, WAS HORRIFIED. 292 00:36:03,227 --> 00:36:14,705 >> THIS IS FOOTAGE SHE SHOT FROM THE HELICOPTER. >> I SEE THIS DESTRUCTION, LIKE 80-MUSS YEARS OF WORK COMPLETELY 293 00:36:14,772 --> 00:36:23,281 FLATTENED. >> THIS IS CAYO BEFORE THE HURRICANE, WITH A DENSE CANOPY OF TREES AND LUSH FOLIAGE. 294 00:36:23,347 --> 00:36:31,789 THIS IS AFTER, A GREEN OASIS TURNED BROWN, BURIED IN DEAD BRANCHES. THE ISLAND LOST TWO-THIRDS OF 295 00:36:31,856 --> 00:36:38,596 ITS VEGETATION. HEART BROKEN BY WHAT SHE WAS SEEING FROM THE AIR, ANGELINA WANTED A CLOSER LOOK. 296 00:36:38,663 --> 00:36:45,336 BUT EVEN ON THE GROUND, SHE DIDN'T SEE ANY MONKEYS. >> SO, THEN I GET ON THE HELICOPTER AGAIN -- 297 00:36:45,403 --> 00:36:53,878 >> BACK UP AGAIN. >> -- AND THAT'S WHEN I SEE A SOCIAL GROUP RUNNING FROM THE HELICOPTER. 298 00:36:53,945 --> 00:37:01,552 AND IT'S LIKE, OH, THERE'S MONKEYS. THERE'S STILL CAYO. I THINK I ESTIMATED THAT MUST BE 299 00:37:01,619 --> 00:37:09,360 AROUND 300, 400 MONKEYS OR SO. >> OUT OF 1,700. >> YES. >> BUT ONCE THE STAFF WAS ABLE 300 00:37:09,427 --> 00:37:18,569 TO RETURN AND DO A COMPLETE CENSUS ON THE GROUND, THEY FOUND, TO THEIR UTTER ASTONISHMENT, THAT MOST HAD 301 00:37:18,636 --> 00:37:23,174 LIVED. THEY ESTIMATED JUST ABOUT 50 HAD DIED. >> AND YOU'RE THINKING, HOW 302 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:30,915 COULD THEY SURVIVE THIS? HOW COULD THEY? >> HOW COULD THEY SURVIVE THIS? >> IT'S STILL A MYSTERY. 303 00:37:30,982 --> 00:37:37,622 WHAT DID THE MONKEYS DO TO RIDE OUT THE STORM? WHERE DID THEY SHELTER FROM THE WIND? 304 00:37:37,688 --> 00:37:44,895 AND WHAT DID THEY EAT? >> SO, ONE OF THE BIG QUESTIONS IS, WITHOUT BEING FED, HOW WERE THEY NOURISHED? 305 00:37:44,962 --> 00:37:53,004 >> YEAH. SO, ALTHOUGH THE HURRICANE DID DRAMATICALLY DEVEGETATE THE ISLAND, ONE THING IT ALSO DID 306 00:37:53,070 --> 00:38:00,945 WAS DEPOSITED A GREAT AMOUNT OF SEAWEED AND ALGAE ONTO THE ISLAND. SO, ONE POSSIBILITY IS THAT THE 307 00:38:01,012 --> 00:38:05,983 MONKEYS WERE EATING MORE OF THIS KIND OF VEGETATION. >> WHICH THEY STILL SEEM TO ENJOY. 308 00:38:06,050 --> 00:38:14,825 AFTER THE HURRICANE, THE MONKEYS HAD TO ADJUST TO A NEW, FAR MORE HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT. THEIR INNATE ADAPTABILITY 309 00:38:14,892 --> 00:38:19,797 CERTAINLY HELPED. >> SO, THEY BOB UP AND DOWN TO TRY AND STOP THEMSELVES FROM FALLING FORWARD. 310 00:38:19,864 --> 00:38:29,106 >> SIX YEARS AFTER THE STORM, THE ADJUSTING CONTINUES. ATTEMPTS TO REPLANT THE TREES HAVE BEEN STYMIED BECAUSE THE 311 00:38:29,173 --> 00:38:36,280 MONKEYS, EVER CURIOUS ABOUT ANYTHING NEW IN THEIR ENVIRONMENT, UPROOT THEM BEFORE THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO GROW. 312 00:38:36,347 --> 00:38:41,585 SO, NOW THERE'S VERY LITTLE SHADE. >> THIS USED TO BE ALMOST FORESTED, RIGHT? 313 00:38:41,652 --> 00:38:52,530 >> LOTS OF SPACE AND SHADE. NOW IT'S A FEW SHADED AREAS. SO, THEY'VE BEEN CLUMPED BY THE CHANGING DISTRIBUTION OF SHADE. 314 00:38:52,596 --> 00:39:00,438 >> SO, AN INTERESTING THING THAT WE SAW IS THAT INDIVIDUALS BECAME MORE SOCIAL. >> NOT JUST MORE SOCIAL. 315 00:39:00,504 --> 00:39:08,212 THE RESEARCHERS HAVE NOTICED THAT THE MONKEYS ARE MORE TOLERANT OF EACH OTHER, WHICH AT FIRST SEEMED COUNTERINTUITIVE. 316 00:39:08,279 --> 00:39:15,953 >> I'M THINKING OF HUMANS IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE'S FEWER RESOURCES. AND I SEE IN MY MIND'S EYE, 317 00:39:16,020 --> 00:39:20,658 COMPETITION. I SEE THEM SAYING, GET OFF MY PROPERTY OR WHATEVER. BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT IT WAS 318 00:39:20,725 --> 00:39:26,931 THE OPPOSITE HERE. >> PERHAPS. BUT THERE'S ALSO FAMOUS EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE PULLING TOGETHER. 319 00:39:26,997 --> 00:39:37,775 SO, I THINK IT CAN GO BOTH WAYS. WE'RE CAPABLE OF GREAT GREED AND COMPETITION AND CRUELTY. BUT HUMANS ARE ALSO CAPABLE OF 320 00:39:37,842 --> 00:39:48,285 GREAT KINDNESS AND COMPASSION AND FRIENDSHIP AND GENEROSITY. AND THAT KIND DUALITY EXISTS IN RECENT SOCIETIES TOO. 321 00:39:48,352 --> 00:39:55,025 >> I THINK ANYONE YOU TALK TO HERE IN PUERTO RICO WOULD BRING UP THE FACT THAT PEOPLE OF PUERTO RICO GELLED AND INCREASED 322 00:39:55,092 --> 00:40:01,031 THEIR SUPPORT OF ONE ANOTHER IN THE FACE OF THIS EVENT. >> BEYOND OBSERVING THEIR SOCIAL INTERACTIONS, THEY WERE ALSO 323 00:40:01,098 --> 00:40:09,607 ABLE TO TRACK BIOLOGICAL CHANGES SINCE THEY HAD ACCESS TO BLOOD TESTS DONE ON THE MONKEYS FOR 13 YEARS. 324 00:40:09,673 --> 00:40:15,846 >> SO, WHAT WE FOUND IS THAT INDIVIDUAL WHO IS HAD LIVED THROUGH THE HURRICANE HAD IMMUNE SYSTEMS THAT LOOKED LIKE THEY'D 325 00:40:15,913 --> 00:40:22,620 AGED AN EXTRA TWO YEARS. >> WHAT IS THAT IN HUMAN YEARS? >> IT'S SIX TO EIGHT HUMAN YEARS. 326 00:40:22,686 --> 00:40:30,861 >> THEY AGED SIX TO EIGHT YEARS? >> THEY AGED SIX TO EIGHT HUMAN YEARS. >> OH, MY GOSH, THROUGH THE 327 00:40:30,928 --> 00:40:34,832 TRAUMA. >> THAT WAS ON AVERAGE. THAT'S THE WORK THAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO RIGHT NOW IS WHAT 328 00:40:34,899 --> 00:40:41,338 MAKES SOME OF THESE INDIVIDUALS MORE RESILIENT TO THE HURRICANE, RIGHT? >> IS THE HYPOTHESIS THAT IT HAS 329 00:40:41,405 --> 00:40:46,443 SOMETHING TO DO WITH FRIENDSHIPS? >> WE THINK THAT THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE ABLE TO 330 00:40:46,510 --> 00:40:54,218 HAVE STRONGER BONDS, STRONGER FRIENDSHIPS, MIGHT HAVE BEEN PROTECTED FROM THIS REALLY STRESSFUL EVENT. 331 00:40:54,285 --> 00:41:04,895 >> THE HURRICANE OPENED ALL NEW AVENUES OF THEIR RESEARCH, WITH QUESTIONS SUCH AS, WHAT PREDICTS WHO SURVIVES A CATASTROPHE LIKE 332 00:41:04,962 --> 00:41:17,541 AN EARTHQUAKE OR A HURRICANE AND HOW QUICKLY THEY RECOVER? SO, WHEN YOU STEP BACK AND LOOK AT YOUR STUDY IN TERMS OF 333 00:41:17,608 --> 00:41:24,081 CLIMATE-RELATED TRAUMA OR ANY KIND OF TRAUMA, ARE YOU EXPECTING TO FIND ANSWERS FOR SURVIVABILITY IN THESE 334 00:41:24,148 --> 00:41:32,823 SITUATIONS FOR HUMAN BEINGS? >> GIVEN THE STRONG SIMILARITY BETWEEN THESE PRIMATES, THESE MONKEYS, AND US, WE KNOW THAT A 335 00:41:32,890 --> 00:41:41,565 LOT OF THE WORK THAT WE'RE DOING AND THE THINGS THAT THEY MIGHT DO TO, YOU KNOW, BE MORE RESILIENT MIGHT BE TRANSLATABLE 336 00:41:41,632 --> 00:41:49,206 TO HUMANS, TO US, AND MIGHT PROVIDE WAYS FOR US TO INTERVENE AND HELP BUFFER AGAINST THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF THESE 337 00:41:49,273 --> 00:42:04,255 TRAUMATIC EVENTS. . >>> THE LAST MINUTE OF "60 MINUTES" IS SPONSORED BY UNITED 338 00:42:04,321 --> 00:42:16,166 HEALTH CARE, THERE FOR WHAT MATTERS. >>> NOW, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT CHARLIE D'AGATA FROM ISRAEL. 339 00:42:16,233 --> 00:42:23,540 >> THIS MORNING SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN MADE A SURPRISE VISIT TO THE WEST BANK, WHERE MAHMOUD ABBAS JOINED ARAB 340 00:42:23,607 --> 00:42:31,215 LEADERS IN CALLING FOR A CEASEFIRE. SECRETARY BLINKEN'S PUSH FOR A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE WAS REFUSED 341 00:42:31,282 --> 00:42:37,821 BY PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU SAYING, NOT UNTIL ALL THE HOSTAGES ARE RETURNED. THE FIGHTING IN GAZA HAS ONLY 342 00:42:37,888 --> 00:42:43,794 INTENSIFIED. HAMAS CLAIMS AN OVERNIGHT AIR STRIKE KILLED AT LEAST 40 PEOPLE AT ANOTHER REFUGEE CAMP AND THAT 343 00:42:43,861 --> 00:42:52,036 THE OVERALL DEATH TOLL HAS NOW SURPASSED 9,700. THE ISRAELI MILITARY CLAIMS IT HAS SURROUNDED GAZA CITY, AND 344 00:42:52,102 --> 00:42:58,976 TROOPS ARE CLOSING IN. HANGING IN THE BALANCE, THE FATE OF MORE THAN 240 HOSTAGES TAKEN BY THE TERROR GROUP IN THOSE 345 00:42:59,043 --> 00:43:15,492 ATTACKS THAT KILLED MORE THAN 1,400 PEOPLE. >>> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH 346 00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:18,128 ANOTHER EDITION OF "60 MINUTES."