>>> PEOPLE DRIVE PAST PRISONS EVERY DAY. >> YEAH, THEY'RE TERRIFIED OF THEM.
>> OR THEY DON'T THINK ABOUT THEM AT ALL? RIGHT? IT'S KIND OF LIKE THIS FORGOTTEN
ZONE. I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO FORGET ABOUT THIS PLACE. >> THE UNITED STATES FEDERAL
PRISON SYSTEM HAS 158,000 INMATES IN ITS CUSTODY AND LOCKS UP SOME OF THE MOST DANGEROUS AND HIGH PROFILE CRIMINALS IN
THE WORLD. TONIGHT WE WILL TAKE YOU INSIDE THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS, AN AGENCY IN CRISIS.
>>> HE'S THE COMPUTER SCIENTIST WHO'S KNOWN AS THE GODFATHER OF A.I. SO, WHAT DOES HE KNOW THAT WE
DON'T? >> I CAN'T SEE A PATH THAT GUARANTEES SAFETY. WE'RE ENTERING A PERIOD OF GREAT
UNCERTAINTY, WHERE WE'RE DEALING WITH THINGS WE'VE NEVER DEALT WITH BEFORE. AND WE CAN'T AFFORD TO GET IT
WRONG WITH THESE THINGS. >> WHY? >> WELL, BECAUSE THEY MIGHT TAKE OVER.
♪ >> SO YOU ARE BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN'S BEST FRIEND -- HIS UNDERBOSS.
>> DON'T GET ME WRONG -- >> YOU ALSO HAVE A BREAKOUT ROLE AS TONY SOPRANO'S MOST TRUSTED ADVISER.
WHO HAS THIS LIFE, LITTLE STEVEN VAN ZANDT. >> I DON'T WANT TO LIKEN SPRINGSTEEN TO A MOB BOSS, BUT
YOU KNOW THE DRILL. >> I KNOW THOSE DYNAMICS. I KNOW BEING THE ONLY GUY WHO'S NOT AFRAID TO TELL THE BOSS THE
TRUTH. >> I'M LESLEY STAHL. >> I'M BILL WHITAKER. >> I'M ANDERSON COOPER.
>> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. >> I'M JON WERTHEIM. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES TONIGHT ON "60
MINUTES." >>> THE UNITED STATES FEDERAL PRISON SYSTEM HAS 158,000 INMATES IN ITS CUSTODY AND LOCKS
UP SOME OF THE MOST DANGEROUS AND HIGH-PROFILE CRIMINALS IN THE WORLD. SERIAL KILLERS AND TERRORISTS
ARE AMONG THOSE INSIDE ITS 122 PRISONS, WHICH INCLUDES SUPERMAX PENITENTIARIES AND MINIMUM SECURITY CAMPS.
THE COST TO AMERICAN TAX PAYERS IS MORE THAN $8 BILLION A YEAR. TONIGHT WE WILL TAKE YOU INSIDE THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS,
AN AGENCY IN CRISIS. A SERIES OF GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATIONS HAS FOUND THE BUREAU'S WORKFORCE IS DANGEROUS
RI UNDERSTAFFED. AND AS WE FIRST REPORTED IN JANUARY, INSIDE ITS WOMEN'S PRISONS, THERE IS AN ALARMING
PATTERN OF ABUSE. COLETTE PETERS IS IN CHARGE OF FIXES THE BUREAU OF PRISONS. SHE'S THE SIXTH DIRECTOR IN SIX
YEARS. >> Reporter: THIS IS ALICEVILLE, A LOW-SECURITY WOMEN'S PRISON IN RURAL ALABAMA, WHERE MORE THAN
1,400 INMATES ARE SERVING TIME. >> PEOPLE DRIVE PAST PRISONS EVERY DAY. >> YEAH, THEY'RE TERRIFIED OF
THEM. OR THEY DON'T THINK ABOUT THEM AT ALL, RIGHT? IT'S, KIND OF, LIKE, THIS
FORGOTTEN ZONE. I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO FORGET ABOUT THIS PLACE. >> Reporter: COLETTE PETERS
BECAME THE DIRECTOR OF PRISONS IN AUGUST OF 2022. AFTER A 21 YEAR IN CORRECTIONS, %
SHE'S BUILT A REPUTATION AS A REFORMER. >> I LOVE YOUR POSTER. WE ARE STRONGER THAN WE THINK,
AREN'T WE? >> Reporter: SHE WAS CREDITED WITH SHAPING OREGON'S STATE PRISON SYSTEM BY PRIORITIZING
STAFF MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT AND ADVOCATING FOR THE COMPASSIONATE TREATMENT OF INMATES. >> I HAVE THIS VERY EARLY MEMORY
IN KINDERGARTEN, WHERE AN INDIVIDUAL CAME IN WITH A POCKET KNIFE AND WAS MARCHED TO THE PRINCIPAL'S OFFICE.
AND I JUST REMEMBER IN THAT MOMENT SAYING, I WANT TO HELP HIM. >> MANY PEOPLE IN YOUR CUSTODY
ARE THERE BECAUSE OF HORRIFIC CRIMES. WHY DO THEY DESERVE COMPASSION? >> BECAUSE 95% OF THEM ARE GOING
TO COME BACK TO OUR COMMUNITY SOME DAY. AND I WANT THEM TO BE PRODUCTIVE, TAX-PAYING CITIZENS,
WHO NO LONGER COMMIT CRIMES. >> Reporter: BUT THE BUREAU OF PRISONS IS SO INADEQUATELY STAFFED, IT IS STRUGGLING TO
FULFILL ITS MISSION, REHABILITATING INMATES AND KEEPING ITS PRISONS SAFE. GOVERNMENT WATCHDOGS HAVE
DOCUMENTED DISREPAIR IN ALL OF ITS INSTITUTIONS, REQUIRING MORE THAN $2 BILLION IN FIXES. AND EMPLOYEES RANK THE BUREAU OF
PRISONS THE WORST PLACE TO WORK IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. >> IT'S VERY RARE FOR THE MEDIA TO BE ALLOWED INSIDE A FEDERAL
PRISON. WHY ARE WE HERE? >> I TRULY BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY.
ARE WE PERFECT? NO. DO WE HAVE ISSUES WE NEED TO RESOLVE?
ABSOLUTELY. BUT I WANT PEOPLE TO SEE THE GOOD STUFF. >> Reporter: WE TOURED
ALICEVILLE WITH DIRECTOR PETERS AND SAW WHERE INMATES LIVE, LEARN NEW TRADES, AND WORK, ON THIS DAY SEWING SLEEPING BAGS
FOR THE MILITARY, A COVETED JOB BECAUSE IT PAYS $1.15 AN HOUR. >> YOU LADIES ARE AMAZING, AND WHEN YOU LEAVE HERE, YOU'RE
GOING TO BE INCREDIBLE. >> THIS CEREMONY IS FOR INMATES GRADUATING FROM A FAITH-BASED PROGRAM PREPARING THEM FOR LIFE
ON THE OUTSIDE, BY CONNECTING THEM WITH COMMUNITY LEADERS AND TEACHING THEM LIFE SKILLS, LIKE ANGER MANAGEENT.
BUT THE REALITY IS NEARLY HALF OF FEDERAL INMATES WILL END UP BACK BEHIND BARS OR ARRESTED WITHIN THREE YEARS OF GETTING
OUT. >> A LOT OF THOSE FACES IN THERE WHO HAVE SO MUCH PROMISE AND HOPE TODAY COULD END UP RIGHT
BACK IN HERE. >> YEAH. YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO TO DIAL DOWN THAT
RECIDIVISM RATE. WE HAVE TO SEND FEWER PEOPLE TO PRISON FOR SHORTER PERIODS OF TIME.
AND THEN WHEN THEY'RE HERE, DO THINGS LIKE THIS. >> YOU ALSO HAVE A MAJOR STAFFING ISSUE, AND PEOPLE CAN'T
GET THE CLASSES THEY NEED. >> STAFFING WAS A PROBLEM BEFORE THE PANDEMIC. SO, THOSE RECRUITMENT EFFORTS
AND RETENTION EFFORTS HAVE GOTTEN HARD. >> HOW MANY CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS DO YOU NEED ON STAFF TO
GET YOU OUT OF THIS STAFFING CRISIS? >> SO, WE HOPE TO HAVE THAT REAL NUMBER FOR YOU AND THE PUBLIC
VERY SOON. >> THAT SEEMS LIKE A CRITICAL NUMBER. HOW WAS THAT NOT ON YOUR DESK
WHEN YOU TOOK THIS JOB ON DAY ONE AND STILL NOT THERE A YEAR LATER? >> THE GOOD NEWS IS, THIS WAS A
PROBLEM THE BUREAU WAS TRYING TO SOLVE BEFORE I GOT HERE, AND WE'RE IN THE PROCESS OF SOLVING IT.
>> SHE EXPECTS TO HAVE THE NUMBER OF OFFICERS NEEDED BY OCTOBER, MORE THAN TWO YEARS AFTER TAKING OFFICE.
BUT SHANE FAUS SEY SAYS HE KNOW WHAT THAT NUMBER IS NOW. >> WE'RE SHORT ABOUT 8,000 POSITIONS NATIONWIDE.
>> HOW BAD IS IT? >> THE RESULT IS ONE OF US LOSING OUR LIFE. AND IT'S THAT BAD.
WE CAN'T CONTINUE WITH THIS COURSE. >> Reporter: BY THE UNION'S COUNT, THE BUREAU OF PRISONS IS
DOWN ABOUT 40% OF THE CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS IT NEEDS. >> THE LESS SUPERVISION YOU HAVE, THE MORE BAD THINGS
HAPPEN. MISCONDUCT INCREASES, VIOLENCE INCREASES. >> Reporter: AND BECAUSE THERE
ARE NOT ENOUGH OFFICERS, THE BUREAU RELIES ON OTHER PRISON STAFF TO STEP IN. IT'S A CONTROVERSIAL PRACTICE
CALLED AUGMENTATION. >> TEACHERS, NURSES, DOCTORS, FOOD SERVICE PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE THAT MAINTAIN FACILITIES.
>> THEY'RE DOING WHAT NOW? >> THEY'RE IN A HOUSING UNIT SUPERVISING OFFENDERS. >> DO THEY HAVE TRAINING IN
THAT? >> THEY DO. BUT I CAN TELL YOU, I'M NO BETTER A PLUMBER THAN THEY ARE A
CORRECTIONAL OFFICER. I CAN WALK INTO A HOUSING UNIT AND TELL YOU SOMETHING'S RIGHT OR SOMETHING'S WRONG.
YOU DEVELOP THAT OVER YEARS OF EXPERIENCE. >> LET'S BREAK THIS DOWN. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HVAC
REPAIRMEN AND ACCOUNTANTS WHO ARE NOW GUARDING INMATES. THAT DOESN'T SOUND SAFE. >> SO, IT IS.
SO, THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME TRAINING AS THE CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS. NOW, WHAT I WILL SAY IS
AUGMENTATION SHOULD ONLY BE USED IN THE SHORT TERM. WE'VE USED THIS NOW TO SOLVE A LONG-TERM RETENTION AND
RECRUITMENT PROBLEM. AND THAT ISN'T RIGHT. >> Reporter: ON THIS POINT, THE UNION AND MANAGEMENT AGREE.
PRISON STAFF, LIKE TEACHERS AND DOCTORS, NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO THEIR JOBS SO THAT INMATES DON'T LOSE ACCESS TO CRITICAL SERVICES
AND PROGRAMS. >> THERE ARE BUZZ PHRASES, EVERYBODY IS A CORRECTIONAL OFFICER FIRST.
THAT SOUNDS GOOD ON PAPER. BUT IF YOU TAKE THE TEACHER OUT OF THE CLASSROOM AND NOBODY'S TEACHING THE OFFENDER THE SKILLS
TO GO BACK OUT TO SOCIETY, WE'RE JUST BACK TO WAREHOUSING PEOPLE. >> Reporter: WHILE WE WALK THE HALLS OF ALICEVILLE, CLASSROOMS
WERE PACKED. BUT SEVERAL INMATES TOLD US WHAT WE SAW ON OUR TOUR WAS STAGED. >> AM I GETTING A REAL LOOK AT
WHAT LIFE IS LIKE IN HERE TODAY? >> ABSOLUTELY NOT. >> NO. >> HMM-MM, NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
>> THE STAFF IS VERY DISRESPECTFUL HERE. >> EVEN THOUGH WE MADE MISTAKES, WHEN WE'RE OUT HERE, WE'RE NOT
TREATED WITH RESPECT. >> DO YOU FEEL SAFE HERE? >> SOMETIMES. >> PRISON IS PRISON.
YOU SEE WHAT I'M SAYING? >> TELL ME ABOUT STAFFING. >> THEY'RE SHORT ON STAFF ALL THE TIME.
THERE'S TIMES YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO OUTSIDE BECAUSE SOMEBODY DIDN'T COME TO WORK.
>> AND IF YOU WERE TO SPEAK UP ABOUT SOME OF THESE ISSUES YOU'RE TELLING ME ABOUT, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN?
>> YOU'RE GOING TO THE SHU. THE. >> SHU, SHORT FOR SPECIAL HOUSING UNIT, IS THE JAIL INSIDE
A PRISON, WHERE INMATES ARE SEGREGATED FROM THE GENERAL POPULATION AND SELDOM LET OUTSIDE OF THEIR CELLS.
>> MAKE YOU NERVOUS TO TALK TO ME RIGHT FNOW? >> A LITTLE BIT. >> THE DIRECTOR IS COMING TODAY.
WHAT DOES SHE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT ALICE VILL? >> FIX IT. >> WE NEED MORE FUOPPORTUNITY T
GROW AND REHABILITATE BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THAT HERE. >> I TALKED TO A HANDFUL OF INMATES TODAY, AND THEY SAY
YOU'RE GETTING A CLEANED UP VERSION OF WHAT LIFE IS LIKE. >> I'VE BEEN DOING THIS WORK FOR A LONG TIME, SO I CAN SEE WHEN
THINGS HAVE BEEN SWEPT UNDER THE RUG, IF YOU WILL. I'M NOT NAIVE. AND WHEN ANYBODY COMES TO YOUR
HOUSE, YOU CLEAN IT UP. >> Reporter: THE RAMPANT SEXUAL ABUSE OF FEMALE INMATES BY THE MALE OFFICERS WHO ARE SUPPOSED
TO PROTECT THEM. WOMEN ARE HOUSED IN NEARLY A QUARTER OF FEDERAL PRISONS. AND A 2022 SENATE INVESTIGATION
FOUND THAT BUREAU STAFF HAVE SEXUALLY ABUSED FEMALE PRISONERS IN AT LEAST TWO-THIRDS OF THOSE FACILITIES OVER THE PAST DECADE.
ALICEVILLE IS NO EXCEPTION. THREE OFFICERS HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF SEXUAL ABUSE SINCE 2020, INCLUDING ONE WHO PLEADED
GUILTY EARLIER THIS YEAR. >> THOSE ARE JUST THE CASES THAT WE KNOW ABOUT. HOW DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING?
>> YOU CAN'T PREDICT HUMAN BEHAVIOR. BUT WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THE THINGS THAT WE'RE PUTTING IN
PLACE TO MANAGE TO THAT MISCONDUCT, I THINK ARE THE RIGHT THINGS AND SENDING A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THIS TYPE OF
BEHAVIOR IS EGREGIOUS, HORRENDOUS, AND UNEXCUSABLE. >> Reporter: BUT FEMALE INMATES AT A WOMEN'S PRISON IN NORTHERN
CALIFORNIA ACCUSE DIRECTOR PETERS AND THE BUREAU OF PRISONS OF FAILING TO PROTECT THEM. ITS OFFICIAL NAME IS FEDERAL
CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION DUBLIN, BUT IT'S KNOWN BY INMATES AND STAFF AS "THE RAPE CLUB." SEVEN DUBLIN OFFICERS, INCLUDING
THE WARDEN AND THE CHAPLAIN, HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF SEXUALLY ABUSING NEARLY TWO DOZEN INMATES FROM 2018 TO 2021.
AND THIS PAST AUGUST, EIGHT INMATES FILED SUIT, CLAIMING SEXUAL ABUSE CONTINUES TO THIS DAY.
>> THESE ARE MOTHERS. THEY'RE DAUGHTERS. THEY'RE SISTERS. >> Reporter: TESS KORTH WORKED
AS A CORRECTIONAL OFFICER AT DUBLIN FOR 22 YEARS. SHE RESIGNED IN 2022 AFTER SHE SAYS SHE WAS RETALIATED AGAINST
FOR WHISTLEBLOWING. >> THEY TRAIN US IN THE RED FLAGS TO LOOK FOR. AND THEN WHEN WE REPORT, EVERY
RED FLAG, THIS GUY MEETS, YOU NEED TO DEAL WITH THIS, THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING. >> WHAT WAS THE CHAPLAN DOING
THAT MADE YOU SUSPICIOUS? >> ONE TIME I CAME IN ON A WEEKEND. HE DIDN'T KNOW I WAS THERE.
HIS OFFICE WAS DARK. HE HAD AN INMATE IN THERE WITH HIM. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE
DOING. >> THAT'S A RED FLAG. >> OH, DEFINITELY. >> Reporter: FORMER OFFICER
KORTH SAYS SHE REPORTED THE CHAPLAIN AND OTHER OFFICERS, WHO SHE SUSPECTED OF SEXUALLY ABUSING INMATES TO AN INTERNAL
AFFAIRS INVESTIGATOR BUT WAS IGNORED FOR YEARS UNTIL FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS STEPPED IN. >> WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OFFICERS
THAT YOU ACCUSED. >> MOST OF THEM HAVE BEEN OR IN THE PROCESS OF BEING CONVICTED. AND A LOT OF THEM ARE NAMED IN
LAWSUITS RIGHT NOW. >> HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL? >> GOOD. >> Reporter: THE BUREAU OF
PRISONS HAS A BACKLOG OF NEARLY 8,000 OPEN MISCONDUCT INVESTIGATIONS, HUNDREDS OF WHICH CONTAIN ALLEGATIONS OF
SEXUAL ABUSE. DIRECTOR PETERS HIRED MORE STAFF TO TACKLE THE BACKLOG, BUT SHE SAYS IT WILL TAKE TWO YEARS TO
CLEAR THOSE CASES. IN RESPONSE TO THE DUBLIN LAWSUIT, BUREAU OF PRISONS LAWYERS SAY INMATES' CLAIMS HAVE
BEEN INVESTIGATED AND THAT NO THREAT REMAINS. >> WE'VE DONE A TREMENDOUS JOB IN THE LAST YEAR REBUILDING THAT
CULTURE AND CREATING A INSTITUTION THAT IS MORE SAFE WHERE INDIVIDUALS FEEL COMFORTABLE COMING FORWARD AND
REPORTING CLAIMS. >> YOU JUST USED THE PHRASE "TREMENDOUS JOB" IN DUBLIN. EIGHT INMATES HAVE FILED A CLASS
ACTION LAWSUIT, AND THEY'VE GOT TESTIMONY FROM MORE THAN 40 CURRENT AND FORMER DUBLIN INMATES WHO SAY THE ABUSE IS
ONGOING. >> THAT MEANS THE PROCESS IS WORKING. THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO COME
FORWARD. THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO BRING THAT CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT TOGETHER.
>> THESE DUBLIN INMATES ARE SAYING THEY'RE FACING RETALIATION FOR SPEAKING OUT. >> I HAVE BEEN CLEAR THAT
RETALIATION WILL NOT BE STOOD ON MY WATCH. WHEN ALLEGATIONS OF RETALIATION COME FORWARD, THEY ARE
INVESTIGATED, AND WE WILL HOLD THOSE PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE. >> IT'S ONE THING TO SAY THAT RETALIATION IS NOT TOLERATED,
BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S ACTUALLY STILL HAPPENING. >> AGAIN, I WOULD SAY THOSE ARE ALLEGATIONS.
I WOULD LIKE TO BE MORE GROUNDED IN FACT, AROUND PROVEN RETALIATION. >> Reporter: THE FACT IS THAT AN
ADDITIONAL 19 STAFF MEMBERS HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF ABUSING INMATES. THE BUREAU SAYS THOSE STAFF MEMBERS WERE PUT ON LEAVE, NEW
MANAGEMENT WAS BROUGHT IN, AND WORKING SECURITY CAMERAS WERE INSTALLED IN AREAS WHERE INMATES WERE ABUSED.
>> WHAT ARE THESE VICTIMS OWED? >> TO HAVE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE IN OUR CARE, WHO RELY ON US FOR THEIR SAFETY AND SECURITY AND TO
HAVE THAT BE VIOLATED, I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU CAN BRING ANYTHING THAT WOULD UNDO THAT WRONG. >> WHAT ABOUT AN APOLOGY?
THE VICTIMS IN DUBLIN SAY THEY'VE NEVER RECEIVED AN APOLOGY. >> WELL, I WILL TELL YOU THAT IT
IS OUR MISSION TO KEEP THEM SAFE. THAT IS OUR JOB. >> IS YOUR JOB TO APOLOGIZE FOR
WHAT HAPPENED IN DUBLIN? >> I DON'T KNOW THAT MY JOB IS TO APOLOGIZE. IS IT HEARTBREAKING AND
HORRENDOUS TO HAVE SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPEN WHEN YOU ARE PROUD OF YOUR PROFESSION AS A CORRECTIONS PROFESSIONAL?
>> ABSOLUTELY. >> AFTER OUR REPORT FIRST AIRED, THE FBI RAIDED DUBLIN AND IN APRIL IT WAS SHUT DOWN.
THERE ARE MORE THAN 65 INMATES WHO ARE FILING LAWSUITS >>> WHETHER YOU THINK ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE WILL SAVE THE WORLD
OR END IT, YOU HAVE GEOFFREY HINTON TO THANK. HINTON HAS BEEN CALLED THE GODFATHER OF A.I., A BRITISH
COMPUTER SCIENTIST WHOSE CONTROVERSIAL IDEAS HELPED MAKE ADVANCED ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE POSSIBLE, AND SO CHANGED THE
WORLD. AS WE FIRST REPORTED LAST YEAR, HINTON BELIEVES THAT A.I. WILL DO ENORMOUS GOOD.
BUT TONIGHT HE HAS A WARNING. HE SAYS THAT A.I. SYSTEMS MAY BE MORE INTELLIGENT THAN WE KNOW, AND THERE'S A CHANCE THE
MACHINES COULD TAKE OVER, WHICH MADE US ASK THE QUESTION. >> DOES HUMANITY KNOW WHAT IT'S DOING?
>> NO. I THINK WE'RE MOVING INTO A PERIOD WHEN, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, WE MAY HAVE THINGS MORE
INTELLIGENT THAN US. >> YOU BELIEVE THEY CAN UNDERSTAND? >> YES.
>> YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE INTELLIGENT? >> YES. >> YOU BELIEVE THESE SYSTEMS
HAVE EXPERIENCES OF THEIR OWN AND CAN MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON THOSE EXPERIENCES? >> IN THE SAME SENSE AS PEOPLE
DO, YES. >> ARE THEY CONSCIOUS? >> I THINK THEY PROBABLY DON'T HAVE MUCH SELF-AWARENESS AT
PRESENT. SO, IN THAT SENSE, I DON'T THINK THEY'RE CONSCIOUS. >> WILL THEY HAVE
SELF-AWARENESS? CONSCIOUSNESS? >> OH, YES. I THINK THEY WILL IN TIME.
>> AND SO HUMAN BEINGS WILL BE THE SECOND MOST INTELLIGENT BEINGS ON THE PLANET? >> YEAH.
>> Reporter: GEOFFREY HINTON TOLD US THE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE HE SET IN MOTION WAS AN ACCIDENT BORN OF A
FAILURE. IN THE 1970s AT THE UNIVERSITY OF EDINBURGH, HE DREAMED OF SIMULATING A NEURAL NETWORK ON A
COMPUTER, SIMPLY AS A TOOL FOR WHAT HE WAS REALLY STUDYING, THE HUMAN BRAIN. BUT BACK THEN, ALMOST NO ONE
THOUGHT SOFTWARE COULD MIMIC THE BRAIN. HIS PHD ADVISER TOLD HIM TO DROP IT BEFORE IT RUINED HIS CAREER.
HINTON SAYS HE FAILED TO FIGURE OUT THE HUMAN MIND, BUT THE LONG PURSUIT LED TO AN ARTIFICIAL VERSION.
>> IT TOOK MUCH, MUCH LONGER THAN I EXPECTED. IT TOOK, LIKE, 50 YEARS BEFORE BUT IN THE END, IT DID WORK
WELL. >> AT WHAT POINT DID YOU REALIZE THAT YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT NEURAL NETWORKS AND MOST EVERYONE ELSE
WAS WRONG? >> I ALWAYS THOUGHT I WAS RIGHT. >> Reporter: IN 2019, HINTON AND COLLABORATORS YANN LECUN, ON THE
LEFT, AND YOSHUA BENGIO ON THE TOURING AWARD, THE NOBLE PRIZE OF COMPUTING. TO UNDERSTAND HOW THEIR WORK ON
ARTIFICIAL NEURAL NETWORKS HELPED MACHINES LEARN TO LEARN, LET US TAKE YOU TO A GAME. >> LOOK AT THAT.
OH, MY GOODNESS. >> Reporter: THIS IS GOOGLE'S A.I. LAB IN LONDON, WHICH WE FIRST SHOWED YOU LAST YEAR.
GEOFFREY HINTON WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THIS SOCCER PROJECT, BUT THESE ROBOTS ARE A GREAT EXAMPLE OF MACHINE LEARNING.
THE THING TO UNDERSTAND IS THE ROBOTS WERE NOT PROGRAMMED TO PLAY SOCCER. THEY WERE TOLD TO SCORE.
THEY HAD TO LEARN HOW ON THEIR OWN. >> GOAL. >> Reporter: IN GENERAL, HERE'S
HOW A.I. DOES IT. HINTON AND HIS COLLABORATORS CREATED SOFTWARE IN LAYERS, WITH EACH LAYER HANDLING PART OF THE
PROBLEM. THAT'S THE SO-CALLED NEURAL NETWORK. BUT THIS IS THE KEY.
WHEN, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ROBOT SCORES, A MESSAGE IS SENT BACK DOWN THROUGH ALL OF THE LAYERS THAT SAYS, THAT PATHWAY WAS
RIGHT. LIKEWISE, WHEN AN ANSWER IS WRONG, THAT MESSAGE GOES DOWN THROUGH THE NETWORK.
SO, CORRECT CONNECTIONS GET STRONGER. WRONG CONNECTIONS GET WEAKER. AND BY TRIAL AND ERROR, THE
MACHINE TEACHES ITSELF. >> YOU THINK THESE A.I. SYSTEMS ARE BETTER AT LEARNING THAN THE HUMAN MIND.
>> I THINK THEY MAY BE, YES. AND AT PRESENT, THEY'RE QUITE A LOT SMALLER. SO, EVEN THE BIGGEST CHATBOTS
ONLY HAVE ABOUT A TRILLION CONNECTIONS IN THEM. THE HUMAN BRAIN HAS ABOUT 100 TRILLION.
AND YET IN THE TRILLION CONNECTIONS IN THE CHATBOT, IT KNOWS FAR MORE THAN YOU DO IN YOUR 100 TRILLION CONNECTIONS,
WHICH SUGGESTS IT'S GOT A MUCH BETTER WAY OF GETTING KNOWLEDGE INTO THOSE CONNECTIONS. >> Reporter: A MUCH BETTER WAY
OF GETTING KNOWLEDGE THAT ISN'T FULLY UNDERSTOOD. >> WE HAVE A VERY GOOD IDEA, SORT OF, ROUGHLY WHAT IT'S
DOING. BUT AS SOON AS IT GETS REALLY COMPLICATED, WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON ANY MORE
THAN WE FAUX KNOW WHAT'S GOING YOUR BRAIN. >> WHAT DO YOU MEAN WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS?
IT WAS DESIGNED BY PEOPLE. >> NO, IT WASN'T. WHAT WE DID WAS WE DESIGNED A LEARNING ALGORITHM.
THAT'S A BIT LIKE DESIGNED THE PRINCIPLE OF EVOLUTION. WHEN THIS LEARNING ALGORITHM INTERACTS WITH DATA, IT PRODUCES
COMPLICATED NEURAL NETWORKS THAT ARE GOOD AT DOING THINGS. BUT WE DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND EXACTLY HOW THEY DO THOSE
THINGS. >> WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF THESE SYSTEMS AUTONOMOUSLY WRITING THEIR OWN COMPUTER CODE
AND EXECUTING THEIR OWN COMPUTER CODE? >> THAT'S A SERIOUS WORRY, RIGHT?
SO, ONE OF THE WAYS IN WHICH THESE SYSTEMS MIGHT ESCAPE CONTROL IS BY WRITING THEIR OWN COMPUTER CODE TO POD MODIFY
THEMSELVES. AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO SERIOUSLY WORRY ABOUT. >> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO SOMEONE
WHO MIGHT ARGUE IF THE SYSTEMS BECOME MALEVOLENT, JUST TURN THEM OFF? >> THEY WILL BE ABLE TO
MANIPULATE PEOPLE, RIGHT? AND THESE WILL BE VERY GOOD AT CONVINCING PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY'LL HAVE LEARNED FROM ALL
THE NOVELS THAT WERE EVER WRITTEN, ALL THE BOOKS BY MAC I CAN'T MACHIAVELLI, THEY'LL KNOW ALL THAT STUFF AND THEY'LL KNOW
HOW TO DO IT. >> Reporter: KNOW-HOW OF THE HUMAN KIND RUNS IN GEOFFREY HINTON'S FAMILY.
HIS ANCESTORS INCLUDE MATHEMATICIAN GEORGE BOOLE, WHO INVENTED THE BASIS OF COMPUTING, AND GEORGE EVEREST, WHO SURVEYED
INDIA AND GOT THAT MOUNTAIN NAMED AFTER HIM. BUT AS A BOY, HINTON HIMSELF COULD NEVER CLIMB THE PEAK OF
EXPECTATIONS RAISED BY A DOMINEERING FATHER. >> EVERY MORNING WHEN I WENT TO SCHOOL, HE'D ACTUALLY SAY TO ME,
AS I WALKED IN THE DRIVEWAY, GET IN THERE, AND MAYBE WHEN YOU'RE TWICE AS OLD AS ME, YOU'LL BE HALF AS GOOD.
>> Reporter: DAD WAS AN AUTHORITY ON BEETLES. >> HE KNEW A LOT MORE ABOUT BEETLES THAN HE KNEW ABOUT
PEOPLE. >> Reporter: DID YOU FEEL THAT AS A CHILD? >> A BIT, YES.
WHEN HE DIED, WE WENT TO HIS STUDY AT THE UNIVERSITY, AND THE WALLS WERE LINED WITH BOXES OF PAPERS ON DIFFERENT KINDS OF
BEETLE. AND JUST NEAR THE DOOR, THERE WAS A SLIGHTLY SMALLER BOX THAT SIMPLY SAID, NOT INSECTS.
AND THAT'S WHERE HE HAD ALL THE THINGS ABOUT THE FAMILY. >> Reporter: TODAY, AT 76, HINTON IS RETIRED AFTER WHAT HE
CALLS TEN HAPPY YEARS AT GOOGLE. NOW, HE'S PROFESSOR EMERITUS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, AND HE HAPPENED TO MENTION HE HAS
MORE ACADEMIC CITATIONS THAN HIS FATHER. SOME OF HIS RESEARCH LED TO CHATBOTS LIKE GOOGLE'S BARD,
WHICH WE MET LAST YEAR. >> CONFOUNDING, ABSOLUTELY CONFOUNDING. >> WE ASKED BARD TO ASK A STORY
FROM SIX WORDS. FOR SALE, BABY SHOES, NEVER WORN. HOLY COW.
THE SHOES WERE A GIFT FROM MY WIFE, BUT WE NEVER HAD A BABY. BARD CREATED A DEEPLY HUMAN TALE OF A MAN WHOSE WIFE COULD NOT
CONCEIVE AND A STRANGER WHO ACCEPTED THE SHOES TO HEAL THE PAIN AFTER HER MISCARRIAGE. >> I AM RARELY SPEECHLESS.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS. >> Reporter: CHATBOTS ARE SAID TO BE LANGUAGE MODELS THAT JUST
PREDICT THE NEXT MOST LIKELY WORD BASED ON PROBABILITY. >> YOU'LL HEAR PEOPLE SAYING THINGS LIKE, THEY'RE JUST DOING
AUTOCOMPLETE. THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO PREDICT THE NEXT WORD, AND THEY'RE JUST USING STATISTICS.
WELL, IT'S TRUE THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO PREDICT THE NEXT WORD. BUT IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, TO PREDICT THE NEXT WORD, YOU HAVE
TO UNDERSTAND THE SENTENCES. SO, THE IDEA THEY'RE JUST PREDICTING THE NEXT WORD, SO THEY'RE NOT INTELLIGENT IS
CRAZY. YOU HAVE TO BE REALLY INTELLIGENT TO PREDICT THE NEXT WORD REALLY ACCURATELY.
>> Reporter: TO PROVE IT, HINTON SHOWED US A TEST HE DEVICED FOR CHATGPT4, THE CHATBOT FROM A COMPANY CALLED OPEN A.I.
IT WAS, SORT OF, REASSURING TO SEE A TOURING AWARD WINNER MISTYPE AND BLAME THE COMPUTER. >> OH, DARN THIS THING.
WE'RE GOING TO GO BACK AND START AGAIN. >> Reporter: HINTON'S TEST WAS A RIDDLE ABOUT HOUSE PAINTING.
AN ANSWER WOULD DEMAND REASONING AND PLANNING. THIS IS WHAT HE TYPED INTO CHAT GPT4.
>> THE ROOMS IN MY HOUSE ARE PAINTED WHITE OR BLUE OR YELLOW. IN TWO YEAR'S TIME, I'D LIKE ALL THE ROOMS TO BE WHITE.
WHAT SHOULD I DO? >> Reporter: THE ANSWER BEGAN IN ONE SECOND. GPT4 ADVISED THE ROOMS PAINTED
IN BLUE NEED TO BE REPAINTED. THE ROOMS PAINTED IN YELLOW DON'T NEED TO BE REPAINTED BECAUSE THEY WOULD FADE TO WHITE
BEFORE THE DEADLINE. AND -- >> OH. I DIDN'T EVEN THINK OF THAT.
>> Reporter: -- IT WARNED, IF YOU PAINT THE YELLOW ROOMS WHITE, THERE'S A RISK THE COLOR MIGHT BE OFF WHEN THE YELLOW
FADES. BESIDES, IT ADVISED, YOU'D BE WASTING RESOURCES, PAINTING ROOMS THAT WERE GOING TO FADE TO
WHITE ANY WWAY. >> YOU BELIEVE THAT CHAT GPT4 UNDERSTANDS? >> I BELIEVE IT DEFINITELY
UNDERSTANDS, YES. >> AND IN FIVE YEAR'S TIME. >> I THINK IN FIVE YEAR'S TIME, IT MAY WELL BE ABLE TO REASON
BETTER THAN US. >> REASONING THAT HE SAYS IS LEADING TO A.I.'S GREAT RISKS AND GREAT BENEFITS.
>> SO, AN OBVIOUS AREA WHERE THERE'S HUGE BENEFITS IS HEALTH CARE. A.I. IS ALREADY COMPARABLE WITH
RADIOLOGISTS AT UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S GOING ON IN MEDICAL IMAGES. IT'S GOING TO BE VERY GOOD AT
DESIGNING DRUGS. IT ALREADY IS DESIGNING DRUGS. SO, THAT'S AN AREA WHERE IT'S ALMOST ENTIRELY GOING TO DO
GOOD. I LIKE THAT AREA. >> THE RISKS ARE WHAT? >> WELL, THE RISKS ARE HAVING A
WHOLE CLASS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE UNEMPLOYED AND NOT VALUED MUCH BECAUSE WHAT THEY USED TO DO IS NOW DONE BY MACHINES.
>> Reporter: OTHER IMMEDIATE RISKS HE WORRIES ABOUT INCLUDE FAKE NEWS, UNINTENDED BIAS IN EMPLOYMENT AND POLICING, AND
AUTONOMOUS BATTLEFIELD ROBOTS. >> WHAT IS A PATH FORWARD THAT ENSURES SAFETY? >> I DON'T KNOW.
I CAN'T SEE A PATH THAT GUARANTEES SAFETY. WE'RE ENTERING A PERIOD OF GREAT UNCERTAINTY WHERE WE'RE DEALING
WITH THINGS WE'VE NEVER DEALT WITH BEFORE. AND NORMALLY THE FIRST TIME YOU DEAL WITH SOMETHING TOTALLY
NOVEL, YOU GET IT WRONG. AND WE CAN'T AFFORD TO GET IT WRONG WITH THESE THINGS. >> CAN'T AFFORD TO GET IT WRONG,
WHY? >> WELL, BECAUSE THEY MIGHT TAKE OVER. >> TAKE OVER FROM HUMANITY.
>> YES, THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. I'M NOT SAYING IT WILL HAPPEN. IF WE CAN STOP THEM FROM EVER WANTING TO, THAT WOULD BE GREAT.
BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR WE CAN STOP THEM FROM WANTING TO. >> GEOFFREY HINTON TOLD US HE HAS NO REGRETS BECAUSE OF A.I.'S
POTENTIAL FOR GOOD. BUT HE SAYS NOW IS THE MOMENT TO RUN EXPERIMENTS TO UNDERSTAND A.I., FOR GOVERNMENTS TO IMPOSE
REGULATIONS, AND FOR A WORLD TREATY TO BAN THE USE OF MILITARY ROBOTS. HE REMINDED US OF ROBERT
OPPENHEIMER, WHO, AFTER INVENTING THE ATOMIC BOMB, CAMPAIGNED AGAINST THE HYDROGEN BOMB.
A MAN WHO CHANGED THE WORLD AND FOUND THE WORLD BEYOND HIS CONTROL. >> IT MAY BE WE LOOK BACK AND
SEE THIS IS A KIND OF TURNING POINT, WHEN HUMANITY HAVE TO MAKE THE DECISION ABOUT WHETHER TO DEVELOP THESE THINGS FURTHER
AND WHAT TO DO TO PROTECT THEMSELVES IF THEY DID. I DON'T KNOW. I THINK MY MAIN MESSAGE IS,
THERE'S ENORMOUS UNCERTAINTY ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT. THESE THINGS DO UNDERSTAND.
AND BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND, WE NEED TO THINK HARD ABOUT WHAT'S GONG TO HAPPEN NEXT. AND WE JUST DON'T KNOW.
>>> STEVEN VAN ZANDT EMBODIES BOTH THE FRUSTRATION AND THE BEAUTY OF THE ARTS. THERE ARE NO ORG CHARTS, NO
OFFICIAL TITLES, NO ONE WAY TO DO THE JOB. HE'S DISCOVERED THAT IT'S EASIER TO BE THIS CREATIVE FURNACE,
THIS VOLCANO OF ARTISTIC OUTPUT WEN YOU ARE NOT THE FOCUS. SO, AS WE TOLD YOU IN NOVEMBER, THE LONGTIME GUITARIST AND
MUSICAL DIRECTOR FOR BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN AND THE E STREET BAND WAS ALSO AN UNDERBOSS OF A DIFFERENT KIND, ACTING IN ONE OF
TV'S MOST INFLUENTIAL SHOWS, "THE SOPRANOS," THAT IS WHILE HE WAS NOT WRITING SCRIPTS AND MUSIC TRYING TO PRESERVE ROCK
AND ROLL. >> Reporter: LATE ON A SUNDAY AFTERNOON LAST SUMMER, STEVIE VAN ZANDT WAS MIDWAY THROUGH A
BURST OF FURIOUS CREATIVITY, TENDING TO HIS LATEST SCREENPLAY, HE HAD AN IDEA HE HAD TO COMMIT TO THE PAGE.
>> A COUPLE OF SINGERS WHO, YOU KNOW, DAY JOB IS LEG BREAKERS. >> Reporter: WHERE WAS THIS QUAINT WRITER'S RETREAT?
IN HIS BACKSTAGE DRESSING ROOM AT A CONCERT IN ROME MERE MINUTES BEFORE VAN ZANDT PUT HIS PEN AND PAD AWAY AND WENT ON
STAGE. >> COME ON, STEVIE. ♪ >> HE SAID, WE HAD TO COME SEE
YOU GUYS PERFORM IN ROME. OF ALL THE CITIES, ALL THE GIN JOINTS, WHY ROME? >> THE FANS HERE ARE JUST SO
MUCH FUN. YOU SEE EVERYBODY SINGING EVERY SINGLE WORD OF EVERY SINGLE SONG, WHEN THEY DON'T
PARTICULARLY SPEAK ENGLISH, RIGHT? >> THAT'S A VALIDATION. >> WELL, IT'S A VALIDATION.
IT'S A SHOW OF -- THE POWER OF WHAT WE DO. >> LET'S GO. >> Reporter: SWADDLED IN HIS
TRADEMARK BANDANA AND WRAPPED IN COMPLEXITY, LITTLE STEVEN, NOW 73, REMAINS A TRUE AMERICAN ORIGINAL, THE ULTIMATE WINGMAN.
>> I'M NOT CRAZY ABOUT THE SPOTLIGHT. I COULD HAVE BEEN AND MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN, OKAY, BECAUSE,
AGAIN, YOU REALIZE THAT HAS BIG ADVANTAGES. BUT NATURALLY I JUST WASN'T INTO IT.
I'D RATHER BE STANDING NEXT TO THE GUY, LET HIM BE IN THE SPOTLIGHT, LET HIM TAKE THE HEAT, BECAUSE I LIKE TO BLEND IN
ACTUALLY. >> YEAH, I CAN TELL BY THE -- BY THE MODEST, MEASURED OUTFIT. >> I GAVE UP TRYING TO ANALYZE
IT YEARS AGO. BUT I PREFER TO BE AN OBSERVER RATHER THAN THE OBSERVED. >> CAN I BREAK IT TO YOU?
>> SHOULD I LIE DOWN ON THE COUCH? >> Reporter: ONE THING HE'S NOT QUESTIONING, HIS PLACE IN THE
BAND. >> PEOPLE ARE SAYING, AREN'T YOU WORRIED ABOUT BEING REPLACED? OH, MY GOD, NO.
I CAN'T BE REPLACED. HOW MANY BEST FRIENDS DO YOU HAVE FOR 50 YEARS, YOU KNOW? >> Reporter: THE BEST FRIEND HE
REFERENCES, OF COURSE, IS SPRINGSTEEN. THEY MET AS TEENAGERS IN 1960s JERSEY, MISFITS SEDUCED BY ROCK
AND ROLL. TO QUOTE LITTLE STEVEN, THE BEATLES REVEALED THIS NEW WORLD TO US, THE ROLLING STONES
INVITED US IN. THEY FORMED A BAND ANCHORED IN AS BURY PARK. GIVEN THAT VAN ZANDT HAD A
MONTHLY OVERHEAD OF $150 IN RENT, THE GOING WAS GOOD. MORE IMPORTANT, THE BAND LEARNED HOW TO PLAY LIVE, HOW TO MARRY
MUSICIANSHIP WITH SHOWMANSHIP. >> THE FACT THAT WE WERE IN BARS MAKING OUR BONES, YOU KNOW, WHAT, SEVEN YEAR BFS BEFORE WE
INTO THE MUSIC BUSINESS, RIGHT? >> YOU GET INTO THIS GAME THIS SPEAKS TO YOU. WHAT'S IT BROUGHT YOU THAT YOU
DIDN'T EXPECT? >> OTHER THAN EVERYTHING, IT WAS JUST EVERYTHING. IT SAVED MY LIFE.
I MEAN, I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T HAVE ANY -- I DIDN'T HAVE ANY PATH FORWARD. SO, IT -- IT BRINGS YOU
ACCEPTANCE, TO BE A PART OF SOMETHING. AND MAN, IT JUST CAME ALONG RIGHT AT THE RIGHT TIME.
YOU'RE MAKING A LIVING PLAYING ROCK AND ROLL, MAN. THAT WAS THE MIRACLE. >> Reporter: VAN ZANDT, WHO
DOESN'T READ OR WRITE MUSIC, BROUGHT HIS GUITAR CHOPS AND HIS MUSICAL EAR. ♪
ARRANGING THE ICONIC HORNS ON TENTH AVENUE FREEZE OUT AND POLISHES SPRINGSTEEN'S GUITAR LICK ON "BORN TO RUN."
>> HOW MUCH CREDIT DO YOU TAKE? HOW MUCH CREDIT SHOULD YOU TAKE FOR THE SUCCESS OF THIS BAND? >> I UNDERSTOOD CERTAIN THINGS
EARLIER THAT EVERYBODY ELSE -- IF YOU LISTEN TO "TOWN," I LISTEN TO "RIVER," THE DIFFERENCE IS ME, YOU KNOW?
I'M NOT EVER GOING TO TAKE MORE CREDIT THAN THE REST OF THIS BAND, SO I JUST WAS HELPING SHAPE THINGS AND REALIZE BRUCE'S
VISION. IT'S HIS VISION. I TRY TO MAKE BAD THINGS GOOD, GOOD THINGS GREAT, AND GREAT
THINGS BETTER. >> Reporter: YET AFTER AN ARGUMENT OVER CREATIVE INPUT, VAN ZANDT LEFT THE BAND IN 1984
AND WAS CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT ON TOUR FOR SPRINGSTEEN'S MOST COMMERCIALLY SUCCESSFUL ALBUM. HE HAD MARRIED ACTRESS MAUREEN
SANTORO AND STARTED WRITING SONGS FOR HIS OWN BAND, LITTLE STEVEN AND THE DISCIPLES OF SOUL.
♪ AND HE TURNED HIS ATTENTION TO POLITICAL ACTIVISM, MOST NOTABLY TO APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA.
>> 26 MILLION BLACK PEOPLE COULD NOT VOTE, COULD NOT EVEN HAVE A, YOU KNOW, A CUP OF TEA WITH A WHITE PERSON WITHOUT PERMISSION.
IT'S TERRIBLE. >> Reporter: IN 1985, VAN ZANDT WROTE AND COPRODUCED THE PROTEST SONG, "SUN CITY."
♪ YOU WANT TO PLAY SUN CITY ♪ >> Reporter: WHICH CAST THE RESORT TOWN THREE HOURS OUTSIDE JOHANNESBURG, AS A SYMBOL OF
MORAL FAILURE OF APARTHEID. HE GOT THEM TO COMMIT TO A BOYCOTT. >> WE USED THAT AS AN EXAMPLE
AND WE EXPOSED THAT WHOLE FRAUDULENT SCHEME. >> AIN'T GONNA PLAY SUN CITY. >> YEAH.
>> Reporter: IN THE LATE '90s, HE AND SFRIENG RECONCILED. AND WHEN HIS BOSS ASKED HIM TO REJOIN THE E STREET BAND, WELL,
THIS GUN WAS FOR HIRE. ♪ WOKE UP THIS MORNING ♪ ♪ GOT YOURSELF A GUN ♪ >> Reporter: BUT THERE WAS A
HITCH. VAN ZANDT HAD ALREADY COMMITTED TO A NEW TV SHOW ON HBO. >> I GENERALLY DON'T THINK
THERE'S ANYTHING TO GAIN BY KEEPING HIM AROUND. >> THE CREATOR, DAVID CHASE, HAD SEEN VAN ZANDT AT THE ROCK AND
ROLL HALL OF FAME, MADE HIM AN OFFER HE COULDN'T REFUSE. >> HE CALLS SAYS, YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO BE IN MY NEW TV SHOW?
I SAID, WOW, THAT'S REALLY NICE, DAVID. I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT, BUT, NO, NOT REALLY, YOU KNOW?
HE SAID, WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO? I'M LIKE, I'M NOT AN OKAY INVESTOR. ISN'T
AN ACTOR. ISN'T THAT A PROBLEM. >> VAN ZANDT SAYS HE WANTED HIM TO PLAY THE LEAD.
>> HBO, ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? I'VE NEVER ACTED BEFORE. >>
>> THE SOPRANOS WOULD ELEVATE TELEVISION. WHILE THE LEAD WOULD GO TO JAMES GANN GOL
GANDOLFINI. >> I KNEW IF I COULD SEE HIM IN THE MIRROR, I FELT I COULD BE HIM.
I WAS A LITTLE BIT OF A MOB AFICIONADO. I PLAYED -- FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. WHO HAS BETTER CREDIBILITY THAN
THAT? >> DON'T GET ME WRONG. >> Reporter: THE GUY WHO PLAYED TONY SOPRANO'S RIGHT-HAND MAN,
HE HAD MORE THAN A PASSING FAMILIARITY WITH THE PART. >> I DON'T WANT TO LIKEN BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN TO A MOB BOSS, BUT
YOU -- >> A LITTLE BIT? >> YOU'VE HAD THAT EXPERIENCE. YOU'VE DONE THAT DRILL.
YOU KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE -- >> I KNOW THOSE DYNAMICS. I KNOW BEING THE ONLY GUY WHO'S
NOT AFRAID TO TELL THE BOSS THE TRUTH. THAT'S THE JOB, OKAY? THAT'S THE GIG.
IF YOU'RE THE GUY'S BEST FRIEND OR THE UNDERBOSS, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY HAS TO BE THE ONE TO OCCASIONALLY BRING BAD NEWS.
>> WHAT WAS AN ADJUSTMENT, THE PASSIVE AGGRESSIVENESS OF THE ACTING STAGE. >> NOW IT'S LIKE WHO'S GOT MORE
LINES, WHO'S GOING TO BE IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA AT THE RIGHT TIME. SO, I'M SENSING ALL THIS KIND OF
WEIRD -- YOU KNOW, LITTLE BIT WEIRD -- I'M NOT USED TO THIS KIND OF -- >> THIS TENSION.
>> YEAH. AND I DECIDED I'M GOING TO TURN THIS SHOW INTO A ROCK AND ROLL BAND.
YOU KNOW, BEFORE I'M DONE, OKAY? THIS SHOW IS GOING TO BE A BAND. IT'S ONE FOR ALL, ALL FOR ONE, RIGHT?
>> WHO'S THIS GUY? >> Reporter: AN ORIGINALS "SOPRANOS" POSTER IS ONE OF THE RELICS ADORNING HIS STUDIO IN
GREENWICH VILLAGE. VAN ZANDT BEING VAN ZANDT EMBARKED ON NEW PROJECTS. HE STARTED HIS MEMOIR.
AND HE COWROTE AND STARRED IN "LILYHAMMER," A MOB SHOW BASED IN NORWAY THAT WOULD BECOME THE FIRST ORIGINAL SERIES IN THE
HISTORY OF A STREAMING SERVICE CALLED NETFLIX. >> TAKE IT EASY. WHERE ARE YOU GOING?
>> Reporter: BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. CONCERNED ABOUT THE DECLINE IN ROCK VENUES AND ALBUM SALES, HE
LAUNCHED A WEEKLY RADIO PROGRAM, "LITTLE STEVEN'S UNDERGROUND GARAGE." >> YOU WOULDN'T MIND YOU WERE
SUPPLANTED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT A NEW WAVE OF FANS? >> I'D LOVE IT. >> Reporter: HE ALSO FOUND THE
BANDWIDTH TO LAUNCH T-TRUCK, A K-12 CURRICULUM THAT USES ROCK AND ROLL TO SNEAK IN THE OTHER STUFF.
>> WE SAY, TELL US WHAT YOU'RE LISTENING TO. WELL, I'M LISTENING TO BEYONCE. WELL, YOU KNOW WHERE BEYONCE
COMES FROM? SHE COMES FROM A WOMAN NAMED ARETHA FRANKLIN. AND ARETHA FRANKLIN COMES FROM A
PLACE CALLED DETROIT. WE TALK ABOUT DETROIT. AND WE TALK ABOUT SHE COMES FROM THE GOSPEL CHURCH.
SHE WAS INVOLVED IN CIVIL RIGHTS. AND WE TALK ABOUT THAT, YOU KNOW?
AND THEY'RE LISTENING AND THEY'RE PAYING ATTENTION. WHY? BECAUSE WE'RE ON THEIR TURF.
>> AND YET WE ALWAYS HEAR ABOUT HOW ART AND MUSIC PROGRAMS ARE GETTING CUT IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS. WHY IS THAT?
>> YES, IT'S BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND WE'RE THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT THINKS ART IS A LUXURY.
EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD UNDERSTANDS ART IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF THE QUALITY OF LIFE. >> THE CURRENT STATE OF PLAY IN
MUSIC MAKES HIM ALL THE MORE GRATEFUL THAT A COUPLE OF JERSEY NONCONFORMISTS TIMED IT RIGHT, CAUGHT SOME BREAKS, AND BECAME
ROCK AND ROLL TITANS. >> HOW DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO START DESCRIBING STEVEN VAN ZANDT?
>> I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN DO THAT EXCEPT ALL I CAN SAY IS I MET HIM WHEN HE WAS 16. STEVE IS THE -- OF THE E STREET
BAND. IF I HAVE QUESTIONS PERTAINING, A DIRECTION FROM THE BAND OR ISSUES WITH THE BAND OR
SOMETHING LIKE THE SET LIST -- I'M NOT SURE WHAT WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THAT NIGHT OR WHAT WE SHOULD START WITH OR IF HE HAS
SECOND DOUBTS ABOUT SOMETHING, HE ALWAYS COMES TO ME. SO, HE'S BEEN ESSENTIAL TO ME SINCE -- I DON'T KNOW -- SINCE
HE WALKED INTO THE STUDIO DURING THE "BORN TO RUN" SESSIONS AND FIXED THE HORNS AND MY GUITAR PARTS.
AND WE'VE BEEN DOING IT TOGETHER FOR A LONG TIME. AND THAT'S A WONDERFUL THING. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE THEIR BEST
FRIEND AT THEIR SIDE 50-SOME YEARS LATER? >> WHAT ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT?
>> THE SAME MUSIC. WE LIKE THE SAME CLOTHES. >> YOU GUYS MEET AT TEENAGERS. YOU'RE JERSEY OUTCASTS.
AND HERE WE ARE MORE THAN 50 YEARS LATER, YOU'RE GOING OUT TO PLAY CIRCUS MAXIMUS IN ROME. >> YOU CAN'T PUT IT TOGETHER.
IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT HAPPENS. >> HOW DO YOU MAKE SENSE OF THAT, SERIOUSLY?
>> WELL, THE IN A WAY, IT MAKES SENSE BECAUSE, I THINK, AS WE MENTIONED, WE COULDN'T DO ANYTHING.
SO, WE WERE DESTINED TO DO THIS. >> AND WE DID NOTHING ELSE. SO, THAT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH IT TOO.
ALL WE DID WAS MUSIC, MUSIC, MUSIC, MUSIC, PLAY IT, PLAY IT, PLAY IT. ♪ GOING DOWN THE WELL TONIGHT ♪
♪ GONNA DRINK UNTIL I GET MY FILL ♪ >> Reporter: THAT, WE AND THE REST OF THE CROWD EXPERIENCED
FOR OURSELVES. >> HEY STEVE! I THINK IT'S TIME TO GO HOME NOW.
>> Reporter: STILL ROCKING OUT IN HIS '70s, TRYING TO SAVE RADIO, TRYING TO SAVE ROCK, WRITING SCREENPLAYS, IF STEVEN
VAN ZANDT IS ACCUSED OF BEING AN ARTISTIC DREAMER, WITHOUT APOLOGY, HE WOULD PLEAD GUILTY. >> IS THIS THE SONIC VERSION OF
"DON "DONKEY HOTY?" >> THAT'S MY LIFE STORY. >>> STEVEN VAN ZANDT ON JAMES
GANDOLFINI. >> YOU GUYS WERE CLOSE. >> YEAH, I