(\TICKING\) >> LIES, DEEP-STATE HOAXES AND SLANDER ON SOCIAL MEDIA
ARE WRECKING THE LIVES OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. AND YET, A
FEDERAL LAW KNOWN AS SECTION 230 HELPS IT TO HAPPEN.
ONE EXAMPLE? THE MYTH THAT THIS IRAQ WAR VETERAN IS
THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CORONAVIRUS. WHAT HAS THIS MEANT
TO YOU? >> ONCE MY ADDRESS WAS POSTED, THAT WAS
IT FOR ME. BECAUSE THEY PUT ME IN DANGER. MY
FAMILY. >> THERE WAS LIKE 60 OR 70 DEATH THREATS
OVER THE SPAN OF, YOU KNOW, FOUR OR FIVE WEEKS.
(\TICKING\) >> THIS CASE IS UNPRECEDENTED IN THE HISTORY OF
THE AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM. >> CURTIS FLOWERS, A BLACK MAN
FROM MISSISSIPPI, WAS TRIED SIX TIMES FOR THE SAME CRIME,
BY THE SAME PROSECUTOR. MR. FLOWERS MIGHT STILL BE ON
DEATH ROW IF IT WASN'T FOR AN INVESTIGATION LED BY
THESE TWO WOMEN... >> IT'S BEEN MORE THAN THREE YEARS
SINCE I GOT AN EMAIL FROM A WOMAN TELLING ME
ABOUT A MAN NAMED CURTIS FLOWERS. >> ...AND THEIR RELENTLESS
REPORTING. >> TO RING IN 2021 WITH THE FANFARE IT
DESERVES, WE BRING YOU THE STORY OF PIANIST IGOR LEVIT,
A 33-YEAR-OLD CLASSICAL COLOSSUS. LEVITT TOLD US HE MISSES HIS
AUDIENCES DREADFULLY. SO TONIGHT, WE THOUGHT WE'D INTRODUCE HIM TO
OURS. (\TICKING\) >> I'M LESLEY STAHL. >> I'M BILL WHITAKER.
>> I'M ANDERSON COOPER. >> I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. >> I'M
JON WERTHEIM. >> I'M SCOTT PELLEY. THOSE STORIES, TONIGHT, ON
"60 MINUTES." >> Pelley: A PRIORITY OF THE NEW PRESIDENT
AND CONGRESS WILL BE REINING IN THE GIANTS OF SOCIAL
MEDIA. ON THIS, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS AGREE. THEIR TARGET IS
A FEDERAL LAW KNOWN AS "SECTION 230." IN A SINGLE
SENTENCE, IT SET OFF THE "BIG BANG," HELPING TO CREATE
THE UNIVERSE OF GOOGLE, FACEBOOK, TWITTER AND THE REST. SOME
CRITICS OF THE LAW SAY THAT IT LEAVES SOCIAL MEDIA
FREE TO IGNORE LIES, HOAXES AND SLANDER THAT CAN WRECK
THE LIVES OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. ONE OF THOSE CRITICS IS
LENNY POZNER. AFTER A TRAGEDY IN HIS OWN LIFE, POZNER
HAS BECOME A CHAMPION FOR VICTIMS OF ONLINE LIES-- PEOPLE
INCLUDING MAATJE AND MATT BENASSI, WHO OVERNIGHT BECAME THE TARGET
OF DEATH THREATS LIKE THESE. >> Maatje Benassi: "WE'RE GOING
TO PUT A BULLET IN HER SKULL." "LET'S LOAD UP
THE TRUCKS." "LET'S GO GET THEM." "LET'S HANG THEM." THEY
POSTED OUR ADDRESS, OUR FULL ADDRESS, WHERE WE LIVE. >>
Pelley: THE HATE FOCUSED ON MAATJE AND MATT BENASSI WAS
UNLEASHED BY A HOAX THAT CLAIMS SHE BROUGHT COVID-19 INTO
THE WORLD. >> Matt Benassi: IT'S CHANGED AND MIGRATED OVER
THE 70-PLUS VIDEOS THAT THEY'VE HAD ABOUT US, BUT-- >>
Pelley: WAIT, 70? >> Matt Benassi: YEAH. IF YOU ACTUALLY
GO THROUGH ALL OF THE VIDEOS, THERE IS A TOTAL
70 VIDEOS, ACROSS MULTIPLE YOUTUBE CHANNELS. >> Pelley: THE VIDEOS
CLAIM MAATJE BENASSI CARRIED THE VIRUS TO CHINA ON A
BICYCLE. SHE WAS INVITED THERE AS A MEMBER OF A
U.S. MILITARY CYCLING TEAM. MAATJE IS A DUTCH IMMIGRANT-- AMERICAN
CITIZEN AND SOLIDER-- WHO SERVED IN IRAQ. IN 2019, DURING
AN INTERNATIONAL MILITARY OLYMPICS, SHE CRASHED IN WUHAN, WHERE COVID-19
WAS DISCOVERED TWO MONTHS LATER. HER COLLISION WITH THE INTERNET
BEGAN AFTER AN INNOCENT ARTICLE ABOUT THE RACE. >> Maatje
Benassi: AND SOMEBODY CAME ACROSS IT, AND IT HAD "WUHAN"
IN IT, AND THEY TOOK A RUN WITH IT. "OH,
WE GOT A PERSON." >> Pelley: YOUR NAME, THE NAME
"WUHAN," AND THE REST ONLY TAKES A LOT OF IMAGINATION.
>> Maatje Benassi: CORRECT. >> Pelley: WHAT WERE THEY SAYING
ABOUT YOU? >> Maatje Benassi: FIRST THEY SAID I BROUGHT
IT TO CHINA. AND WHEN I CRASHED, I SPREAD IT.
AND THAT I SPREAD IT IN THE HOSPITAL-- WHICH, I
NEVER WAS IN A HOSPITAL. ALL THESE LIES ABOUT VIALS
IN MY BICYCLE, HIDDEN. AND, I HAVE NO IDEA. >>
George Webb: IT'S GOING TO BE THIS PERSON BY THE
NAME OF MAATJA BENASSI, AND WE'RE-- >> Pelley: THE ABSURDITY
WAS SPELLED OUT, LITERALLY, BY A HOAX-PEDDLER NAMED GEORGE WEBB.
HE HAS A FOLLOWING AMONG THE" DEEP STATE" PHONY CONSPIRACY
CROWD. WHAT HAS THIS MEANT TO YOU? >> Maatje Benassi:
I WAS LOOKING OVER MY SHOULDER A LOT. I WAS
SCARED FOR MY LIFE >> Pelley: YOU WERE TAKING ALL
THAT SERIOUSLY? >> Maatje Benassi: YES. ONCE MY ADDRESS WAS
POSTED, THAT WAS IT FOR ME. THAT DID IT. BECAUSE
THEY PUT ME IN DANGER. MY FAMILY. >> Matt Benassi:
THERE WAS LIKE 60 OR 70 DEATH THREATS OVER THE
SPAN OF, YOU KNOW, FOUR OR FIVE WEEKS. >> Pelley:
THEY CALLED THE POLICE AND THE F.B.I., WHICH GOT THEM
NOWHERE. >> Matt Benassi: AND THE REASON WHY THE F.B.I.
AND THE POLICE DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU IS
BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH WE'RE RECEIVING DEATH THREATS, THEY DIDN'T SAY,
"WE'RE COMING TO THE BENASSIS TO KILL THEM\TONIGHT." >> Pelley:
THEY NEED A CRIME TO HAVE BEEN COMMITTED. >> Matt
Benassi: THAT'S CORRECT. >> Pelley: AND YOU'RE TRYING TO \PREVENT\A
CRIME FROM BEING COMMITTED. >> Matt Benassi: ABSOLUTELY. >> Pelley:
RIGHT ABOUT NOW, YOU MIGHT BE THINKING THEY SHOULD SUE--
BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM. THEY CAN'T FILE HUNDREDS OF LAWSUITS
AGAINST INTERNET TROLLS HIDING BEHIND ALIASES. AND THEY CAN'T SUE
THE INTERNET PLATFORMS BECAUSE OF THAT LAW KNOWN AS SECTION
230 OF THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT OF 1996. WRITTEN BEFORE
FACEBOOK OR GOOGLE WERE INVENTED, SECTION 230 SAYS, IN JUST
26 WORDS, THAT INTERNET PLATFORMS ARE NOT LIABLE FOR WHAT
THEIR USERS POST. >> Jeff Kosseff: THAT MEANS THAT IF
I WERE TO POST SOMETHING ABOUT YOU ON FACEBOOK THAT
WAS AWFUL AND DEFAMATORY, AND YOU ACTUALLY HAD A VIABLE
DEFAMATION LAWSUIT, YOU COULD SUE\ME,\BUT YOU CAN'T SUE FACEBOOK. >>
Pelley: JEFF KOSSEFF TEACHES LAW AND WROTE A BOOK CALLED
"THE 26 WORDS THAT CREATED THE INTERNET." BUT, HELP ME
UNDERSTAND, THE SAME IS NOT TRUE FOR OTHER FORMS OF
MEDIA? IF SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING DEFAMATORY ON "60 MINUTES" OR
ON FOX OR CNN OR IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES,"
THOSE ORGANIZATIONS CAN BE SUED. SO, WHY NOT GOOGLE, YOUTUBE,
FACEBOOK? >> Kosseff: SO, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SOCIAL MEDIA
SITE AND, LET'S SAY, THE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR PAGE
OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES," IS THE VAST AMOUNT OF
CONTENT THAT THEY DELIVER. SO, I MEAN, YOU MIGHT HAVE
FIVE OR TEN LETTERS TO THE EDITOR ON A PAGE.
YOU COULD HAVE-- I THINK IT'S 6,000 TWEETS PER SECOND.
AND SO, SECTION 230 REALLY RECOGNIZES HOW EXCEPTIONAL THE INTERNET
IS AND SAYS, "WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE THIS MARKETPLACE OF
IDEAS." 25 YEARS LATER, THAT MARKETPLACE HAS A LOT OF
REALLY GREAT STUFF, BUT IT ALSO HAS A LOT OF
REALLY TERRIBLE PRODUCTS IN THAT MARKETPLACE. AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT'S
DRIVING THIS DEBATE RIGHT NOW. >> Pelley: MAATJE AND MATT
BENASSI QUICKLY DISCOVERED THE LAW WAS NOT ON THEIR SIDE,
SO THEY TURNED TO LENNY POZNER, WHO HAD SUFFERED IN
THE SAME WAY. >> Lenny Pozner: I WAS BEING ATTACKED.
THE MEMORY OF MY SON-- MY SON'S VERY SHORT LIFE,
WAS BEING ATTACKED. AND I JUST WASN'T GOING TO STAND
FOR THAT. >> Pelley: THE VERY SHORT LIFE OF POZNER'S
SON, NOAH, ENDED AT CONNECTICUT'S SANDY HOOK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN
2012, WITH 25 OTHERS. THE GUNSHOTS OF A MADMAN HAVE
RICOCHETED ONLINE EVER SINCE. >> Pozner: CONVERSATIONS DENYING THE TRAGEDY,
ACCUSING THE GOVERNMENT OF STAGING IT. >> Pelley: WHAT WAS
THE MOST HURTFUL THING THEY SAID ABOUT YOU? >> Pozner:
THAT NOAH DID NOT DIE. THAT I'M NOT NOAH'S FATHER.
IT ALL REVOLVES AROUND THE NOTION THAT THESE ARE STAGED
SHOOTINGS, THAT THEY'RE SCRIPTED EVENTS, THAT I'M AN ACTOR, THAT
I'M PAID TO FAKE THE DEATH OF A CHILD. >>
Pelley: BEFORE THE COVID PANDEMIC, WE HIRED THEATRICAL MAKEUP ARTISTS
TO DISGUISE POZNER FOR HIS SAFETY. HE'S PURSUED BY DEATH
THREATS. ONE WOMAN LEFT A VOICE MAIL SAYING, "DEATH IS
COMING FOR YOU REAL SOON." SHE LANDED IN PRISON, SOONER.
HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU HAD TO MOVE YOUR FAMILY?
>> Pozner: AROUND SEVEN TIMES. >> Pelley: HE'S TARGETED BECAUSE
HE'S INVENTED WAYS TO FIGHT BACK. HE COPYRIGHTED PHOTOS OF
HIS SON, TO CONTROL HOW THEY'RE ARE USED. HE PUBLISHED
A LETTER TO FACEBOOK'S C.E.O. THAT READ," YOU HAVE DEEMED
OUR LIVES ARE LESS IMPORTANT THAN PROVIDING A SAFE HAVEN
FOR HATE." THIS WAS MEANT BY YOU AND YOUR EX-WIFE
TO BE PUBLIC SHAMING OF FACEBOOK? >> Pozner: THAT HAS
BEEN REALLY THE ONLY EFFECTIVE WAY TO GET CHANGE FOR
ONLINE PLATFORMS. >> Pelley: AFTER THE LETTER, A FACEBOOK MANAGER
CALLED POZNER. >> Pozner: IT BEGAN A RELATIONSHIP WITH FACEBOOK
THAT HELPED THEM LEARN ABOUT THE MATERIAL THAT IS BEING
POSTED ON THEIR PLATFORM, AND HOW IT IS ABUSIVE, DEFAMATORY.
>> Pelley: HAVE YOU SEEN A DIFFERENCE-- A PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE--
IN FACEBOOK? >> Pozner: YES, IT'S ALMOST ALL GONE. >>
Pelley: POZNER EXPANDED HIS WORK INTO A NON-PROFIT, CALLED THE
HONR NETWORK, THAT APPLIES WHAT HE HAS LEARNED TO HELP
OTHERS. >> Andy Parker: THAT'S WHEN I REACHED OUT TO
LENNY POZNER. HE HAD VOLUNTEERS THAT WERE FIGHTING HARASSMENT, AND
I SAID, "LENNY, I WANT THIS VIDEO TO COME DOWN."
AND HE SAID, "I WILL HELP YOU DO THAT." >>
Pelley: BY HIMSELF, ANDY PARKER COULDN'T GET VIDEO OF HIS
DAUGHTER'S MURDER OFF OF GOOGLE'S YOUTUBE. >> Parker: I REALLY
EXPECTED THEM TO DO THE RIGHT THING. THEIR MOTTO WAS,
"DON'T BE EVIL." AND, FOR A WHILE, THEY DID A
PRETTY GOOD JOB OF IT. BUT NOW, THEY ARE THE
PERSONIFICATION OF EVIL. >> Pelley: IN 2015, REPORTER ALISON PARKER
AND CAMERAMAN ADAM WARD WERE SHOT, ON CAMERA, BY A
FIRED CO-WORKER. THE SCENE HAS BEEN POSTED HUNDREDS OF TIMES.
THIS ONE GOT MORE THAN 600,000 VIEWS. AND TO THE
RIGHT, THE AUTOMATIC AD MEANS THE PERSON WHO POSTED THIS
MADE MONEY-- AND SO DID YOUTUBE. >> Parker: WE SHOULDN'T
HAVE TO BE THE ONES POLICING THEIR PLATFORM. THEIR TERMS
OF SERVICE SAY, "WE DON'T ALLOW THIS. WE DON'T ALLOW
VIOLENT CONTENT. WE DON'T ALLOW HARASSMENT." MY BIGGEST BEEF WITH
GOOGLE, AND YOUTUBE,\AND\FACEBOOK, FOR THAT MATTER, IS, THAT VIDEO IS
STILL OUT THERE. IT'S STILL OUT THERE TODAY. IN ESSENCE,
THEY PROFIT FROM MY DAUGHTER'S MURDER. AND I CAN'T ABIDE
BY THAT. >> Pelley: DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THREATS? >>
Parker: NO, I REALLY DON'T. >> Pelley: WHY DO YOU
FEEL SO BRAVE? >> Parker: BECAUSE ALISON WOULD EXPECT NOTHING
LESS. >> Pelley: YOU'RE STILL HER DAD. >> Parker: YEAH,
I'M HER DAD. ALWAYS WILL BE, AND I WILL FIGHT
LIKE HELL FOR HER. >> Pelley: LENNY POZNER FLAGGED ALISON
PARKER VIDEOS FOR YOUTUBE TO REMOVE. YOUTUBE WROTE US, "THERE
IS NO PLACE ON YOUTUBE FOR CONTENT THAT EXPLOITS THIS
HORRENDOUS ACT, AND WE'VE SPENT THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS INVESTING
IN TOOLS AND POLICIES TO QUICKLY REMOVE IT." YOUTUBE TOLD
US IT NOW PRIORITIZES ALL REQUESTS FROM POZNER'S HONR NETWORK.
WHY DO YOU THINK THE ONLINE PLATFORMS HAVE NOT BEEN
EFFECTIVE IN ENFORCING THEIR OWN TERMS OF SERVICE? >> Pozner:
I DON'T THINK THEY WERE PREPARED FOR THEIR ONLINE PLATFORMS
TO BE USED THIS WAY. I THINK THEY WERE MORE
FOCUSED ON GROWTH AND EXPANSION, AND LIKELY HAD MORE OF
AN IDEALIZED NOTION OF THE INTERNET AND THE WAY IT
WOULD BE USED FOR THE GREATER GOOD. >> Pelley: AN
IDEALIZED NOTION OF HUMAN NATURE? >> Pozner: YEAH, WELL, YES.
>> Pelley: POZNER ALSO HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL PULLING DOWN MUCH
OF THAT COVID-19 LIE THAT SHADOWS MAATJE AND MATT BENASSI.
HE GOT HOAX PEDDLER GEORGE WEBB KICKED OFF YOUTUBE. RECENTLY,
SOME PLATFORMS TOOK FIRST STEPS TOWARD EDITING THEIR USERS. FACEBOOK
AND TWITTER FLAGGED DUBIOUS CONTENT DURING THE ELECTION. NOW THEY'RE
DOING THE SAME FOR MYTHS ABOUT COVID-19. BASED ON WHAT
YOU'VE HAD TO LEARN ABOUT ALL OF THESE THINGS, WHAT
DO YOU THINK THE SOLUTION COULD BE? >> Matt Benassi:
THIS IS REALLY, REALLY HARD, RIGHT? BECAUSE SECTION 230. WHEN
THAT WAS WRITTEN, IT WAS PROBABLY DONE WITH THE INTENT
THAT SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES WOULD POLICE THEMSELVES IN SOME MANNER.
AND SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES HAVEN'T DONE THAT VERY WELL. THEY
NEED TO POLICE THEMSELVES QUICKER, OR THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO
STEP IN AND FIGURE OUT SOME MECHANISM TO MAKE THEM
LIABLE. BECAUSE MAKING THEM LIABLE WOULD MAKE THEM POLICE THEMSELVES.
>> Pelley: BUT MAKING SOCIAL MEDIA LIABLE WOULD ALSO MEAN
FACEBOOK, TWITTER, EVEN WIKIPEDIA AND YELP, COULDN'T EXIST AS WE
KNOW THEM. PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN WANTS TO REVOKE SECTION 230. THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS ALREADY SUING TO BREAK UP FACEBOOK AND
GOOGLE. NO ONE CAN SAY WHAT SOCIAL MEDIA 2.0 WILL
LOOK LIKE, OR WHETHER THE INNOCENT WILL EVER BE PROTECTED
FROM A WORLD WIDE WEB OF LIES. (\TICKING\) >>\WHAT HAPPENS
WHEN HARASSMENT \GOES OFFLINE AND INTO THE REAL \WORLD? >>
TERRORIZING SOMEONE IS NOT FREE SPEECH. >>\AT 60minutesovertime.com >> Alfonsi:
"60 MINUTES" HAS COVERED A LOT OF STORIES ABOUT FLAWS
IN OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM OVER THE YEARS, BUT WE'D
NEVER HEARD ANYTHING LIKE THE CASE AGAINST CURTIS FLOWERS. FLOWERS,
A BLACK MAN FROM MISSISSIPPI, WAS TRIED SIX TIMES FOR
THE SAME CRIME, BY THE SAME PROSECUTOR. HE MIGHT STILL
BE ON DEATH ROW IF NOT FOR THE WORK OF
A TEAM OF REPORTERS FROM AN INVESTIGATIVE PODCAST. TONIGHT, YOU
WILL HEAR FROM CURTIS FLOWERS, THE REPORTERS WHO HELPED FREE
HIM, AND THE PROSECUTOR WHO RELENTLESSLY PURSUED HIM FOR MORE
THAN TWO DECADES. IT BEGAN IN WINONA, MISSISSIPPI, ON A
JULY MORNING IN 1996. SHORTLY AFTER TARDY FURNITURE OPENED FOR
THE DAY, THE STORE'S OWNER, BOOK-KEEPER, DELIVERY MAN AND A
16-YEAR-OLD WERE SHOT IN THE HEAD, EXECUTION STYLE. NO ONE
SAW IT HAPPEN. WHEN YOU HEARD ABOUT THE CRIME AND
THE WAY THEY WERE MURDERED, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION? >>
Curtis Flowers: WELL, MY HEART DROPPED. THE, THE FIRST THING,
YOU KNOW, I-- I FELT SORRY FOR THEM. THEN I
THOUGHT, WELL, I COULD'VE BEEN THERE. >> Alfonsi: CURTIS FLOWERS
HAD WORKED AT TARDY THAT SUMMER FOR THREE DAYS, DELIVERING
AND FIXING FURNITURE, BUT HE WAS LET GO AFTER HE
STOPPED SHOWING UP. ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE MURDERS, SOME VICTIMS'
FAMILIES SUSPECTED FLOWERS. THE POLICE QUESTIONED HIM, BUT MADE NO
ARREST. MONTHS PASSED. FLOWERS MOVED TO TEXAS TO LIVE WITH
HIS SISTER. AND THERE'S A KNOCK AT THE DOOR. >>
Flowers: AND I ANSWERED IT. AND THE NEXT THING YOU
KNOW I WAS ALL UP AGAINST THE WALL, BEING HANDCUFFED.
AND HE EXPLAINED TO ME THAT, "WE JUST HAVE A
WARRANT FOR YOUR ARREST BACK IN MISSISSIPPI." I SAID, "FOR
WHAT?" AND HE SAID, "FOUR COUNTS OF CAPITAL MURDER." MAN,
I SAID, "ME? ARE YOU SURE YOU GOT THE RIGHT
GUY?" >> Alfonsi: FLOWERS HAD NO CRIMINAL RECORD, AND WAS
MORE LIKELY TO BE ON STAGE WITH A GOSPEL GROUP
THAN IN HANDCUFFS. THERE WAS NO MURDER WEAPON, NO D.N.A.
OR FINGERPRINTS LINKING HIM TO THE CRIME. BUT IT TOOK
AN ALL-WHITE JURY JUST AN HOUR TO DELIBERATE AND CONVICT
HIM. AT AGE 27, CURTIS FLOWERS WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH,
AND PUT IN THE MISSISSIPPI STATE PENITENTIARY KNOWN AS PARCHMAN
PRISON. WERE YOU SCARED? >> Flowers: OH, YES. >> Alfonsi:
WHAT'S PARCHMAN LIKE? >> Flowers: THE WORSTEST THING YOU EVER
DREAMED ABOUT. YEAH, LIKE A NIGHTMARE, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU
HEAR ALL KINDS OF NOISE AT NIGHT, YOU KNOW. THERE
ARE INMATES WHO HAVE JUST SNAPPED. SOME WHO HAVE LOST
IT. THEY ACT UP ALL NIGHT. >> Alfonsi: AND YOU
WERE SITTING ON DEATH ROW. I IMAGINE OTHER DEATH ROW
INMATES WERE BEING EXECUTED. >> Flowers: YES. YES. AND THAT--
THAT WAS NERVE- WRACKING ITSELF. >> Alfonsi: HIS CONVICTION WAS
APPEALED AND OVERTURNED, BUT THERE WOULD BE FIVE MORE TRIALS
FOR CURTIS FLOWERS, FOR THE SAME CRIME, BY THE SAME
PROSECUTOR. HOW CAN A PERSON BE TRIED FOR THE SAME
CRIME SIX TIMES? >> Rob McDuff: THIS CASE IS UNPRECEDENTED
IN THE HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM. >> Alfonsi:
ATTORNEY ROB McDUFF OF THE MISSISSIPPI CENTER FOR JUSTICE JOINED
CURTIS FLOWERS' LEGAL TEAM IN 2019. IN THE FIRST THREE
TRIALS, FLOWERS WAS FOUND GUILTY, BUT EACH CONVICTION WAS OVERTURNED
FOR PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT. AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT,
WERE THESE SIMPLE MISSTEPS? OR WAS IT SOMETHING BIGGER GOING
ON HERE? >> McDuff: NO, THESE CONVICTIONS WERE REVERSED BECAUSE
OF THE PROSECUTOR'S MISREPRESENTATION OF THE EVIDENCE TO THE JURY,
AND BECAUSE OF HIS DISCRIMINATION IN THE-- IN SELECTION OF
THE JURY. >> Alfonsi: BUT THE SAME PROSECUTOR GOES AFTER
CURTIS FLOWERS AGAIN, TIME AFTER TIME. THERE'S NOTHING IN OUR
SYSTEM THAT STOPS THAT FROM HAPPENING? >> McDuff: UNFORTUNATELY, THERE
IS NOT. THIS PROSECUTOR WAS LIKE CAPTAIN AHAB HUNTING THE
WHALE. >> Alfonsi: THE PROSECUTOR WAS DISTRICT ATTORNEY DOUG EVANS,
WHO, EVEN AFTER HUNG JURIES IN TRIALS FOUR AND FIVE,
KEPT GOING. IN 2010, EVANS FINALLY GOT A CONVICTION TO
STICK IN TRIAL SIX. FLOWERS RETURNED TO DEATH ROW. THEN
AN EMAIL CHANGED HIS FORTUNES. >> Madeleine Baran: IT'S BEEN
MORE THAN THREE YEARS SINCE I GOT AN EMAIL FROM
A WOMAN TELLING ME ABOUT A MAN NAMED CURTIS FLOWERS.
>> Alfonsi: MADELEINE BARAN IS THE LEAD REPORTER FOR AMERICAN
PUBLIC MEDIA'S PODCAST "IN THE DARK." SAMARA FREEMARK IS THE
PODCAST'S MANAGING PRODUCER. >> Baran: RIGHT AWAY, IT WAS LIKE,
"IS THIS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE WOULD BE TRIED SIX TIMES?"
>> Alfonsi: TO INVESTIGATE HOW THAT HAPPENED, THE "IN THE
DARK" TEAM DESCENDED ON WINONA, A TOWN OF 5,000. MOST
OF DOWNTOWN, LIKE TARDY FURNITURE, HAD FADED AWAY. THE PODCAST
REPORTERS PLANNED TO STAY A FEW MONTHS. THEY STAYED A
YEAR, KNOCKING ON DOORS AND INTERVIEWING HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE. WAS
THERE ANYTHING THAT ANYBODY SAID EARLY ON THAT MADE YOU
THINK, "OH, WELL, MAYBE HE\WAS THE GUY WHO DID THIS?"
>> Baran: YEAH. I MEAN, OF COURSE WE HAVE TO
ASSUME THAT SOMEBODY HAS BEEN CONVICTED FOUR TIMES, THERE'S A
CHANCE HE'S GUILTY, OF COURSE. BUT THE MORE WE LOOKED
INTO THE EVIDENCE, THERE WASN'T A SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE
THAT ACTUALLY HELD UP. >> Alfonsi: THE FIRST PIECE OF
EVIDENCE TO CRUMBLE WAS THE WINDING ROUTE DOUG EVANS TOLD
JURORS THAT CURTIS FLOWERS WALKED THAT JULY MORNING. >> Baran:
THAT, YOU KNOW, CURTIS WOKE UP THAT MORNING, HE WAS
ANGRY, HE NO LONGER WORKED AT THE FURNITURE STORE. HE
WANTED TO KILL THE PEOPLE THERE, BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE
A GUN. SO HE WALKED ACROSS TOWN, STOLE A GUN
FROM A CAR, WALKED HOME, STILL ANGRY. LEFT HIS HOUSE,
WALKED WITH THE GUN TO THE FURNITURE STORE, SHOT FOUR
PEOPLE IN THE HEAD, WALKED HOME. >> Alfonsi: IT SEEMED
FAR- FETCHED FLOWERS WOULD BRAZENLY WALK SO FAR IN BROAD
DAYLIGHT. WHEN THE PODCAST REPORTERS STARTED TALKING TO ROUTE WITNESSES
WHO CLAIMED THEY SAW FLOWERS, A PATTERN EMERGED. >> Baran:
IT WAS CLEAR THEY DID NOT, FOR EXAMPLE, PICK UP
THE PHONE AND CALL THE POLICE AND SAY, "I SAW
SOMETHING SUSPICIOUS." THAT THEY WERE SOUGHT OUT, LIKE, MONTHS LATER,
IN A LOT OF CASES. AND IT TURNED OUT THAT
THEY FELT LIKE THEY NEEDED TO TELL LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT
THIS HAPPENED. OR, AS ONE GUY SAID, "THEY ALREADY TOLD
ME THAT THEY KNEW I SAW CURTIS." >> Samara Freemark:
THEY HAD THE WHOLE STORY LAID OUT FOR ME, AND
ALL I HAD TO DO WAS SAY YES. >> Alfonsi:
WHO WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT ROUTE WITNESS? >> Baran: CLEMMIE
FLEMING. CLEMMIE TESTIFIED THAT CURTIS FLOWERS WAS RUNNING AWAY FROM
THE FURNITURE STORE SHORTLY AFTER THE MURDERS. THIS IS, OF
COURSE, INCREDIBLY DAMNING TESTIMONY, IF IT'S TRUE. AND SHE TESTIFIED
TO IT SIX TIMES. >> Alfonsi: AND WHAT DID YOU
LEARN? >> Baran: THAT CLEMMIE WAS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.
>> Alfonsi: CLEMMIE FLEMING ADMITTED TO THE PODCAST THAT SHE
DIDN'T REMEMBER WHEN SHE SAW FLOWERS RUNNING. IN NOVEMBER, WE
SPOKE TO HER IN WINONA, WHERE SHE STILL LIVES. YOU
SAW CURTIS RUNNING THROUGH TOWN? >> Fleming: YEAH. >> Alfonsi:
BUT YOU WEREN'T SURE. >> Fleming: I WASN'T SURE WHAT
DAY IT WAS. I REALLY-- IT HAPPENED, BUT I DON'T
KNOW WHAT DAY IT WAS. >> Alfonsi: DID YOU EVER
TELL THE PROSECUTORS, "HEY, I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE DAY
THAT I SAW"? >> Fleming: YEAH. >> Alfonsi: AND WHAT
DID THEY SAY? >> Fleming: THEY AIN'T WANT TO HEAR
THAT. THEY JUST WANTED ME TO TELL WHAT I SEEN.
THEY DON'T WANT TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT DAY I SEEN
IT. >> Alfonsi: ANOTHER KEY WITNESS ALSO RECANTED TO "IN
THE DARK." ODELL "COOKIE" HALLMON, A CAREER CRIMINAL, HAD TESTIFIED
THAT CURTIS FLOWERS CONFESSED TO HIM IN PRISON. PRODUCER SAMARA
FREEMARK TRACKED DOWN HALLMON IN PARCHMAN PRISON. AND HOW WERE
YOU TALKING TO HIM? >> Freemark: WELL, IT TURNS OUT
HE HAD AN ILLICIT CELL PHONE. HE WOULD SET UP
A BLANKET FORT TO TALK SO THE GUARDS WOULDN'T-- WOULDN'T
BE ABLE TO SEE HIM. SO HE WOULD SORT OF
HANG BLANKETS UP OVER HIS BUNK, AND HIDE IN THERE.
>> Alfonsi: EVENTUALLY, HE ADMITTED TO FREEMARK THAT HE MADE
THE STORY UP ABOUT CURTIS CONFESSING. THIS IS HALLMON ON
THE PHONE FROM PRISON. >> Hallmon: AS FAR AS HIM
TELLING ME HE KILLED SOME PEOPLE, HELL, NAW, HE AIN'T
NEVER TOLD ME THAT. THAT WAS A LIE. >> Alfonsi:
THE PODCAST REPORTED THAT AFTER HALLMON CAME FORWARD WITH THE
PHONY CONFESSION, HE CUT GENEROUS DEALS WITH PROSECUTORS FOR YEARS
AND AVOIDED PUNISHMENT FOR MULTIPLE FELONY CHARGES. WHILE HE WAS
FREE, IN 2016, HE MURDERED THREE PEOPLE AND WAS FINALLY
SENTENCED TO LIFE IN PRISON. >> Freemark: REMEMBER THIS IS
THAT-- THAT REALLY BEAUTIFUL MUSIC. >> Alfonsi: THE REVELATIONS TURNED
"IN THE DARK" INTO A SENSATION. THE PODCAST WAS DOWNLOADED
42 MILLION TIMES. BUT CURTIS FLOWERS COULD NOT LISTEN TO
IT. HE WAS ON DEATH ROW IN PARCHMAN PRISON, READING
TRANSCRIPTS OF THE PODCAST. AND YOU'RE READING ABOUT THESE WITNESSES
FINALLY RECANTING THEIR STORIES. >> Flowers: I THINK MY FIRST
REACTION WAS, IT'S ABOUT TIME. (\LAUGHS\) AND I WAS JUST
READY TO GO HOME. >> Alfonsi: AS FLOWERS WAITED ON
DEATH ROW, THE PODCAST TEAM CONTINUED UNRAVELING HIS CASE BY
SCOURING CLOSED JAILS AND ABANDONED FACTORIES FOR CLUES AND DOCUMENTS.
>> Freemark: WE HAD TO GO AND SEARCH THEM OUT
LIKE WE WERE ON A TREASURE HUNT. >> Baran: AND
YOU'RE, LIKE, "WHAT ARE THOSE MOUNDS IN THE CORNER," YOU
KNOW? AND YOU'RE LIKE, "OH, THOSE ARE PUBLIC RECORDS FOR
THIS COUNTY." AND THEN YOU GO THROUGH IT AND YOU'RE
LIKE, "THESE ARE COVERED IN MOUSE DROPPINGS. THEY'RE COVERED IN
MOLD." >> Alfonsi: THEY ALSO ANALYZED DECADES OF COURT DATA
THAT REVEALED PROSECUTOR DOUG EVANS HAD A HISTORY OF EXCLUDING
BLACK PEOPLE FROM JURIES AT A DISPROPORTIONATE RATE. ACROSS ALL
OF CURTIS FLOWERS' TRIALS, 61 OF THE 72 JURORS WERE
WHITE. ALL 61 VOTED TO CONVICT. THOSE NUMBERS REVERBERATED FAR
BEYOND MISSISSIPPI. IN 2019, THE U.S. SUPREME COURT RULED THAT
EVANS AND THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI HAD VIOLATED CURTIS FLOWERS'
CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, AND OVERTURNED HIS CONVICTION. JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH WROTE
THAT THERE WAS A "RELENTLESS, DETERMINED EFFORT TO RID THE
JURY OF BLACK INDIVIDUALS." SIX MONTHS LATER, CURTIS FLOWERS WAS
RELEASED ON BAIL. HE WALKED OUT OF JAIL WITH A
MONITOR ON HIS ANKLE, AND HIS SISTERS ON HIS ARMS.
>> HOW ARE YOU FEELING RIGHT NOW? >> Flowers: I
FEEL GOOD. I'M HAPPY I'M OUT. >> Alfonsi: FOR THE
FIRST TIME IN 23 YEARS, HE WAS OUT. >> Flowers:
AND I'M TELLING YOU, I FELT LIKE I WAS FLOATING.
I WAS JUST READY TO GO. >> Alfonsi: IN SEPTEMBER,
THE ANKLE MONITOR CAME OFF. THE MISSISSIPPI ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE
DISMISSED ALL CHARGES AGAINST CURTIS FLOWERS. IT WROTE THAT, "IT
IS IN THE INTEREST OF JUSTICE THAT THE STATE WILL
NOT SEEK AN UNPRECEDENTED SEVENTH TRIAL OF MR. FLOWERS." IN
NOVEMBER, DOUG EVANS, THE MAN WHO PROSECUTED CURTIS FLOWERS SIX
TIMES, SAT DOWN WITH US IN HIS OFFICE FOR A
RARE INTERVIEW. WHY DID YOU PROSECUTE HIM AGAIN AND AGAIN?
>> Doug Evans: BECAUSE I KNEW HE WAS GUILTY. AND
THE FAMILIES KNEW HE WAS GUILTY. AND THE FAMILIES DESERVE
JUSTICE. >> Alfonsi: BUT WHAT ABOUT NOW THAT THOSE WITNESSES
HAVE CHANGED THEIR STORIES? >> Evans: I DON'T THINK-- KNOW,
THAT ANY OF THEM HAVE CHANGED THEIR STORIES. >> Alfonsi:
WELL, CLEMMIE, ODELL. >> Evans: BUT THAT'S NOT IN COURT,
UNDER OATH. >> Alfonsi: DO YOU THINK THAT CURTIS COULD
GET A FAIR TRIAL WHEN THE JURY IS PREDOMINATELY WHITE?
>> Evans: YES. RACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR
PART OF WHAT WE DO. A LOT OF TIMES, RACE
GETS THROWN IN AS AN EXCUSE, IF THERE IS NO
DEFENSE. >> Alfonsi: JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH WROTE THERE SEEMED TO
BE A "RELENTLESS, DETERMINED EFFORT TO RID THE JURY OF
BLACK INDIVIDUALS." THAT'S FROM THE SUPREME COURT. >> Evans: AND
I CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT. BASICALLY, WHAT HE IS DOING IS
ACCUSING ME, LIKE HE WAS ACCUSED, BEFORE HE WAS PUT
ON THE SUPREME COURT. >> Alfonsi: EVANS SAYS HE NEVER
LISTENED TO THE PODCAST, BUT IS CONVINCED "IN THE DARK"
SET OUT TO DISCREDIT HIS CASE. THE WAY THIS IS
BEING PRESENTED NOW WAS THAT IT WAS A WEAK CASE,
THAT THERE WERE NO FINGERPRINTS, THERE WAS NO D.N.A., THERE
WAS NO WITNESS THAT PUTS HIM AT THE CRIME SCENE.
THERE'S THESE STRING OF WITNESSES THAT SAY THEY SAW HIM
ON THE STREET. >> Evans: OH, YOU'VE GOT A WITNESS
THAT SEES HIM WALK IN THE FRONT DOOR. THAT'S ABOUT
AS CLOSE AS YOU CAN GET. >> Alfonsi: BUT OVER
SIX TRIALS, NO WITNESS EVER TESTIFIED TO SEEING CURTIS FLOWERS
WALK IN THE FRONT DOOR AT TARDY FURNITURE. EVANS THEN
MADE ANOTHER STARTLING CLAIM. YOU WOULD THINK THAT BECAUSE THE
MURDERS WERE SO GRUESOME, YOU KNOW, NOBODY SAW HIM COVERED
IN BLOOD OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? >> Evans: WELL, THERE
WERE PEOPLE THAT SAW HIM BURNING CLOTHES AFTER THAT, BUT
WE WEREN'T ABLE TO INTRODUCE THAT EITHER. SUPPOSEDLY, THEY SAW
HIM BURNING CLOTHES AND A PAIR OF TENNIS SHOES. >>
Alfonsi: WHERE DID THAT HAPPEN? >> Evans: IT WAS OUTSIDE
HIS HOUSE, IN THAT AREA OVER THERE. >> Alfonsi: BUT
IN 12,000 PAGES OF PRE-TRIAL HEARINGS AND TRIAL PROCEEDINGS THAT
WE REVIEWED, WE COULDN'T FIND ANY MENTION OF THAT STORY.
ROB McDUFF, CURTIS FLOWERS' LAWYER, SAID THAT'S BECAUSE IT NEVER
HAPPENED. >> McDuff: (\LAUGHS\) YOU KNOW, IT IS JUST PREPOSTEROUS
THAT DOUG EVANS CONTINUES TO SAY THESE THINGS. BUT HE'S
BEEN CALLED OUT ON HIS DECEPTIONS, HE'S BEEN CALLED OUT
ON HIS MISCONDUCT TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN. >>
Flowers: I BELIEVE EVERY CASE DOUG EVANS EVER HANDLED SHOULD
BE LOOKED INTO. I TRULY DO. I-- I-- LORD KNOWS
I WOULD HATE TO SEE THIS HAPPEN TO SOMEONE ELSE.
>> Alfonsi: CURTIS FLOWERS IS NOW 50 YEARS OLD. HE
SPENT NEARLY HALF HIS LIFE IN PRISON. IN NOVEMBER, DURING
A VISIT TO SEE HIS FAMILY IN WINONA, HE TOLD
US THE ADJUSTMENT HAS BEEN SLOW. >> Flowers: I'M SO
USED TO BEING IN SHACKLES, MAKING LITTLE BABY STEPS. >>
Alfonsi: REALLY? >> Flowers: SO THEN, WHEN, YOU KNOW, I'M
TURNED LOOSE AND ABLE TO STEP LIKE I WANT TO,
YEAH, IT TAKES A LOT OF WIND. >> Alfonsi: YOU
COULDN'T WALK NORMALLY? >> Flowers: YEAH, I HAD TO ADJUST
TO IT. >> Alfonsi: BECAUSE YOU WERE ALWAYS IN SHACKLES?
>> Flowers: YES. OH, OH LORD >> Alfonsi: BUT SOMEHOW,
AFTER 23 YEARS, THE FORMER GOSPEL SINGER NEVER LOST HIS
VOICE. LET ME COME HOME LET ME COME HOME (\TICKING\)
(\TICKING\) >> Wertheim: WHEN THE GERMAN PIANIST, IGOR LEVIT, WAS
SELECTED AS THE FEATURED SOLOIST OF THE NOBEL PRIZE CEREMONY
LAST MONTH, IT MARKED YET ANOTHER GRACE NOTE IN A
CAREER THAT'S QUICKLY GROWN FILLED WITH AWARDS AND HONORS. IN
LINE FOR A GRAMMY LATER THIS MONTH, LEVIT IS 33,
AND ALREADY AMONG THE BRIGHTEST STARS IN THE CLASSICAL MUSIC
COSMOS. BUT LATELY, AS THE PANDEMIC MUTES AND MUFFLES SO
MUCH MUSIC, LEVIT'S PERFORMANCES HAVE BEEN MOSTLY STREAMING OVER TWITTER
FROM HIS BERLIN LIVING ROOM. AS IGOR LEVIT PLAYS IN
A NEW WAY TO A NEW AUDIENCE, HE'S REACHED MUSIC
IS NOT AN EXTRAVAGANCE, BUT A LIFE NECESSITY. IGOR LEVIT
IS, TO MIX MUSICAL GENRES, A ROCK STAR. HERE HE
IS INSIDE LONDON'S ROYAL ALBERT HALL FOR THE OPENING AT
THE PROMS IN 2017, ONE OF THE OLDEST AND MOST
ANTICIPATED FESTIVALS ON THE CONCERT CALENDAR. A TYPICALLY GLOWING REVIEW
DESCRIBED THE PERFORMANCE AS" FIERY," "MAGICAL," AND" ELEGANT." TAKE A
LOOK AT HOW LEVIT CURLS OVER HIS INSTRUMENT. AT ODDS
WITH EVERY PIANO TEACHER'S DEMAND FOR PERFECT POSTURE, IT'S ALMOST
AS IF LEVIT IS PHYSICALLY BECOMING PART OF THE MUSIC
HE IS CONJURING. WE SOMETIMES THINK OF MUSICIANS AS-- THEY
DON'T MIND THE ISOLATION. THEY CAN BE DISENGAGED. I GET
THE FEELING YOU NEED THAT CONNECTION WITH AN AUDIENCE. >>
Igor Levit: I COULDN'T LIVE WITHOUT THAT. SINCE MY VERY
CHILDHOOD, WHAT I CARE ABOUT ARE PEOPLE-- >> Wertheim: ALWAYS.
>> Levit: ALWAYS. >> Wertheim: EVEN IN THIS VAST AND
VENERABLE CONCERT HALL, THIS GERMAN MUSICIAN HAS A WAY OF
CREATING AN INTIMACY WITH HIS AUDIENCE. THEN, IN MARCH, THE
PANDEMIC HIT. HIS TOUR DATES CANCELLED, THAT INTIMACY EVAPORATED. (\APPLAUSE\)
IN MANY WAYS, THE LOCKDOWN TURNED YOUR WORLD ON ITS
HEAD. >> Levit: IT'S A DISASTER-- >> Wertheim: TECHNICIANS AND
THE LIGHTING-- >> Levit: A DISASTER. AGENTS, MANAGERS. >> Wertheim:
WHAT HAPPENS? >> Levit: THEY LOSE EVERYTHING, FROM ONE DAY
TO THE OTHER. THE LOSS IS-- BY 100%. IT'S A
TOTAL DISASTER. >> Wertheim: IT COULD HAVE BEEN A DISASTER
FOR LEVIT, A HIPSTER, SUDDENLY GROUNDED AT HOME IN AN
EDGY POCKET OF BERLIN. >> Levit: I CAN'T JUST MAKE
MUSIC FOR MYSELF. IT'S JUST NOT-- NOT THE-- NOT THE
WAY I OPERATE. I CAN'T, EMOTIONALLY. SO, I HAD THIS
IDEA TO BRING ONE OF THE MOST CLASSIC WAYS OF
MUSIC MAKING, WHICH IS THE HOUSE CONCERT, TO BRING IT--
TO TRY TO BRING IT INTO THE 21st CENTURY. SO,
HOW DO I DO IT? SO I INVITE THE PEOPLE
INTO MY LIVING ROOM IN THE ONLY WAY POSSIBLE, WHICH
IS THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA. >> Wertheim: FIRST, HE TWEETED OUT
AN INVITATION TO HIS FOLLOWERS. >> Levit: LIKE THAT'S IT.
>> Wertheim: NEXT, HE RUSHED OUT TO BUY A CHEAP
CAMERA STAND, HASTILY RIGGED HIS iPHONE, SELF-ADMINISTERED A TUTORIAL IN
LIVE-STREAMING, AND THEN, IT WAS SHOWTIME. (\"MOONLIGHT SONATA"\) THE FIRST
HOUSE CONCERT DREW A VIRTUAL CROWD OF 350,000. SOUNDS KIND
OF LIBERATING. >> Levit: IT'S COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED ME, WHO I
AM, HOW I SEE THE WORLD. >> Wertheim: THAT WOULD
SEEM TO DRAMATICALLY CHANGE THE BOUNDARIES BETWEEN A PERFORMER AND
THE AUDIENCE. >> Levit: IT-- YEAH, IT WAS JUST ME,
NO HALL, NO QUESTIONS ABOUT ACOUSTICS, NO QUESTIONS ABOUT AN
INSTRUMENT, NO QUESTIONS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PRE-PRINTED PROGRAMS, NOTHING. NO
BOUNDARIES, JUST-- JUST MYSELF AND THE PEOPLE. (\"RHAPSODY IN BLUE"\)
>> Wertheim: HE HAD HIS CLASSICAL REPERTOIRE, BUT ADDED SOUL
AND JAZZ AND ROCK. FOR 52 CONSECUTIVE NIGHTS OF LIVE
CONCERTS, HIS FOLLOWERS JOINED FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, UNBOTHERED
BY THE TINNY SOUND OF HIS PIANO WHEN IT LAPSED
OUT OF TUNE. THEY KEPT COMING; HE KEPT PLAYING. >>
Levit: BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC. AND SO, WHAT USUALLY MUST
BE RIGHT WAS WRONG, AND IT DIDN'T MATTER. BECAUSE JUST--
JUST THE FACT THAT THERE WAS MUSIC, NO MATTER HOW
IT SOUNDED, JUST THE FACT THAT THERE WAS SOME KIND
OF TOGETHERNESS. JUST-- JUST THIS WAS ENOUGH FOR PEOPLE TO
FEEL BETTER. IT WAS ENOUGH FOR ME TO FEEL BETTER.
>> Wertheim: SO MUCH BETTER, HE NEXT STREAMED WHAT WAS
LESS A CHALLENGE TO HIS MUSICAL TALENTS THAN TO HIS
MUSICAL STAMINA. THE "VEXATIONS" IS NOT EXACTLY A RELIABLE CROWD-PLEASER.
>> Levit: THE "VEXATIONS," WHICH IS A VERY ODD, VERY
WEIRD-- KIND OF NON-MUSIC PIECE. IT DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE.
STARTS WITH ONE HAND ALONE, AND YOU PLAY A WEIRD
VARIATION. THEN YOU PLAY IT-- SAME THING AGAIN. ONE HAND
ALONE, THEN YOU PLAY ANOTHER VARIATION. (\"VEXATIONS"\) >> Wertheim: FRENCH
SURREALIST COMPOSER ERIK SATIE INTENDED THIS PIECE TO BE PLAYED
THROUGH 840 TIMES. THE REPETITION CAN BE ALMOST HYPNOTIC, KNOWN
TO CAUSE PERFORMERS TO HALLUCINATE. ONE COMPLAINED OF SEEING BUGS
CRAWLING BETWEEN THE KEYS. LEVIT PLAYED THIS PIECE FOR 16
HOURS STRAIGHT. IGOR, THAT SOUNDS LIKE TORTURE, NOT MUSIC. >>
Levit: WELL-- "VEXATIONS," RIGHT? (\LAUGHS\) I REST MY CASE. AND
SO, I THOUGHT, "WOW, THAT'S THE PERFECT MATCH FOR THIS
TIME." (\"VEXATIONS"\) AND I COULD FOCUS WITH THIS PERFORMANCE ON
THE EMOTIONAL AND MENTAL STATE OF MIND OF MY WORLD,
OF THE PERFORMANCE WORLD WHICH IS HOPELESSNESS, CONFUSION, AND GIVE,
LIKE, A SILENT SCREAM, LIKE THE END OF THE THIRD
PART OF "THE GODFATHER." >> Wertheim: YOU SURVIVED? >> Levit:
I NOT ONLY SURVIVE, I WAS HIGH AS A MONKEY
AFTERWARDS. I MEAN, I WAS-- I WAS JUST FLYING. >>
Wertheim: LEVIT TOOK FLIGHT EARLY, PLAYING BEETHOVEN'S "SONATA NUMBER 2,"
WINNING A PRESTIGIOUS RUBINSTEIN PRIZE AS A TEENAGER. HE WAS
BORN IN NIZHNY NOVGOROD, RUSSIA. THAT'S WHERE HE PLAYED HIS
FIRST CONCERT WITH A FULL ORCHESTRA. WHEN HE WAS EIGHT,
HE AND HIS FAMILY MOVED TO GERMANY AS JEWISH REFUGEES.
HIS MOTHER WAS A PIANO TEACHER, BUT PAIRED HER TALENTED
SON WITH A TASKMASTER WHO DEMANDED LEVIT PRACTICE THAT SAME
BEETHOVEN'S "SONATA NUMBER 2" FOR YEARS ON END. LEVIT SAYS
HE WAS AN ANGRY AND UNHAPPY ADOLESCENT WHO FLIRTED WITH
QUITTING PIANO. >> Levit: I WAS A 15-YEAR-OLD BOY. LIKE,
I-- YOU KNOW, I WANTED TO DO ALL KINDS OF
THINGS, BUT NOT PLAY THE SAME PIECE OVER AND OVER
AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. (\ EMINEM'S "THE
WAY I AM" \) >> Wertheim: SO, HOW DOES A
BURNED-OUT PIANO PRODIGY GET HIS MOJO BACK? CHANNELING EMINEM, AND
HIS SINGLE "THE WAY I AM." >> Levit: I AM
WHO I AM. AND I AM. AND THE WAY I
AM, JUST-- DEAL WITH IT. AND SORT IT OUT FOR
YOURSELF. SO, I WOULD LISTEN TO THE SONG, LIKE, NONSTOP.
WALKMAN. (\CLAP\) (\LAUGHS\) IN MY HAND. IT WAS, LIKE, IN
A LOOP, THE RHYTHMICAL-- (\CLAP\) PERSISTENCE, THE-- THE-- THE LYRICAL
PERSISTENCE. IT'S SO-- IT'S SO BEETHOVIAN, YOU KNOW, IN A
WAY. >> Wertheim: SLIM SHADY'S HELPING YOU UNDERSTAND BEETHOVEN? >>
Levit: SLIM SHADY-- UNDERSTANDING MYSELF, YEAH. >> Wertheim: BEETHOVEN OBVIOUSLY
MEANS A GREAT DEAL TO YOU. YOU SAID HE'S-- HE'S
AROUND YOU. HE'S IN PRACTICALLY EVERYTHING YOU DO. >> Levit:
IN-- IN A WEIRD WAY, BEETHOVEN'S MUSIC IS MY SAFE
ZONE. IT'S MUSIC WHICH GIVES ME, WHICH GIVES THE AUDIENCE,
THE FEELING OF PARTICIPATION. AT SOME POINT, YOU-- YOU GET
THIS FEELING LIKE, "OH, THIS IS ABOUT ME. THIS IS
ABOUT ME." LIKE, YOU KNOW. RIGHT. >> Wertheim: THAT'S HOW
YOU FEEL? >> Levit: THIS FEELING OF "S. O.S., HELP,
WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?" (\LAUGHS\) BOTH FOR ME AS A
PLAYER AND FOR THE LISTENER. SO, I'M NOT TRYING TO
EXPLAIN SOMETHING TO YOU. I WANT TO ENCOURAGE YOU TO
UNDERSTAND. (\SNAP\) HEY, WHATEVER YOU FEEL, IT'S-- IT'S YOU. IT'S
YOUR MUSIC. IT'S YOUR PIECE. AND SO-- BEETHOVEN-- BEETHOVEN'S MUSIC
KIND OF CREATES THIS LINK BETWEEN THE PLAYER, THE MUSIC,
THE AUDIENCE. THIS TRIANGLE IS ENORMOUSLY INTENSE. >> Wertheim: AND
YET, YOU COULD'VE PLAYED A DIFFERENT PIECE WITH THAT SAME
TRIANGLE AND A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT RANGE OF EMOTIONS. >> Levit:
COMPLETELY. I COULD, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING, YOU KNOW? >> Wertheim:
WHAT ABOUT SADNESS? >> Levit: WELL, THAT'S A WIDE TOPIC.
I MEAN, WHAT KIND OF SADNESS? >> Wertheim: SAY, MOURNFUL
SADNESS? >> Wertheim: IN A PART OF THE WORLD THAT
KNOWS A BIT ABOUT MUSICAL GENIUS, LEVIT MAY BE CONSUMED
BY A COMPOSER BORN 250 YEARS AGO, BUT HE IS
ALSO THE QUINTESSENTIAL CREATURE OF THE PRESENT. LEVIT DOESN'T DRIVE,
BUT IN BETWEEN LOCKDOWNS IN OCTOBER, WE TOOLED AROUND WITH
HIM ON ONE OF HIS MANY BIKES. WHEN DID YOU
FEEL LIKE A GERMAN HERE? YOU CAME WHEN YOU WERE
EIGHT YEARS OLD. IMMEDIATELY? >> Levit: WHEN I FELT LIKE
A GERMAN? >> Wertheim: I DON'T KNOW, WHEN DID YOU
FEEL-- >> Levit: OH, WOW, THAT'S-- >> Wertheim: (\SPEAKING GERMAN\)
>> Levit: THAT, MR. WERTHEIM, IS A VERY GERMAN QUESTION.
>> Wertheim: LEVIT TAKES HIS CITIZENSHIP SERIOUSLY. AT A PROTEST
AGAINST THE DESTRUCTION OF THIS FOREST LAST MONTH, LEVIT BUNDLED
UP AND PLAYED IN SOLIDARITY. THE ENVIRONMENT IS ONE OF
HIS MANY CAUSES. HE'S ADAMANT, AS HE PUTS IT, NOT
TO BE THE GUY WHO JUST PUSHES PIANO KEYS. WHEN
A NEO-NAZI CARRIED OUT A DEADLY ATTACK OUTSIDE A SYNAGOGUE
IN THE GERMAN CITY OF HALLE IN 2019, LEVIT USED
HIS APPEARANCE AT GERMANY'S MOST PRESTIGIOUS MUSIC AWARD CEREMONY TO
SPEAK OUT AGAINST RIGHT-WING EXTREMISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM. LEVIT HAS BEEN
TOLD TO HIS FACE THAT HE HAS NO RIGHT TO
BE IN GERMANY. MORE ALARMINGLY, BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, HE RECEIVED
ONLINE DEATH THREATS, FORCING HIM TO TAKE THE STAGE UNDER
ARMED POLICE GUARD. HIS ACTIVIST POLITICS HAVE PROVOKED ATTACKS ON
MULTIPLE FRONTS. AS A JEW, YOU WERE AN OUTSIDER. >>
Levit: CORRECT. "I WILL FIND YOU ON THAT DAY IN
WIESBADEN AND WILL KILL YOU WHILE YOU'RE ON STAGE." BOTH
OF THEM TAKE A RUBBER AND TRY TO ERASE YOU
FROM-- FROM MOTHER EARTH, BOTH OF THEM. ONE OF THEM
INTELLECTUALLY, THE OTHER ONE PHYSICALLY. >> Wertheim: THE SEDATE COCOON
OF CLASSICAL MUSIC ISN'T ACCUSTOMED TO DEATH THREATS AND TALKS
OF ERASURE. BUT THEN AGAIN, IGOR LEVIT CUTS A SINGULAR
FIGURE. AND IN THE DAYS OF SOARING COVID RATES AND
DEPLETING CONCERT DATES, HE PLAYS ON. IN MUNICH, WE CAUGHT
UP WITH HIM FOR A RARE PERFORMANCE THAT WASN'T CANCELLED.
THERE WAS NO HUM OF ANTICIPATION IN THE LOBBY, NO
BUSTLING COAT CHECK, AND THE AUDIENCE-- IT WAS RESTRICTED TO
JUST 50 PEOPLE. MOZART WAS ON THE MENU. A CANOPY
OF NOTES, SHARPLY RENDERED, FILLED THE AIR. A MEASURE OF
COMFORT IN THESE UNCERTAIN TIMES. >> Alfonsi: NEXT SUNDAY ON
"60 MINUTES," LESLEY STAHL WITH HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI. A
NEW PRESIDENT, THE DEMOCRATS' SLIM HOUSE MAJORITY, AND A RESTIVE
YOUNG HOUSE PROGRESSIVE BLOC HAVE THE SPEAKER UNDER MORE PRESSURE
THAN SHE'S FACED IN YEARS. I'M SHARYN ALFONSI. WE'LL BE
BACK NEXT WEEK WITH THAT AND MORE ON ANOTHER EDITION
OF "60 MINUTES." (\TICKING\)