1 00:00:02,755 --> 00:00:05,995 This programme contains some strong language 2 00:00:05,995 --> 00:00:10,075 and graphic images which some viewers may find upsetting. 3 00:00:10,075 --> 00:00:12,275 Moscow maintains there are no plans to invade Ukraine, 4 00:00:12,275 --> 00:00:14,955 but as you've seen, large scale military drills 5 00:00:14,955 --> 00:00:16,755 are still taking place. 6 00:00:16,755 --> 00:00:20,435 Our special correspondent Fergal Keane, travelled from Senkivka 7 00:00:20,435 --> 00:00:23,515 in Ukraine to the capital Kyiv, meeting people 8 00:00:23,515 --> 00:00:26,755 who could be in the path of any Russian advance. 9 00:00:26,755 --> 00:00:29,755 Here on the border, with the Russians just over there, 10 00:00:29,755 --> 00:00:32,995 there's no sense that things have been conclusively resolved, 11 00:00:32,995 --> 00:00:34,635 not at all. 12 00:00:34,635 --> 00:00:38,715 It's just a pause in what remains a very tense situation. 13 00:00:40,235 --> 00:00:44,795 I'm in Kyiv and I've just made one of the hardest decisions 14 00:00:44,795 --> 00:00:46,955 of my career. 15 00:00:49,235 --> 00:00:54,555 It's about to turn into a big war here and inside of me... 16 00:00:56,795 --> 00:00:59,435 ..the addictive part, but also the part that wants to witness 17 00:00:59,435 --> 00:01:02,035 history, really wants to stay. 18 00:01:03,475 --> 00:01:04,715 But I've made a promise... 19 00:01:06,115 --> 00:01:07,635 ..to myself, 20 00:01:07,635 --> 00:01:10,755 the people I love - no more wars. 21 00:01:10,755 --> 00:01:14,075 Enough, go home, so I'm going home in the morning. 22 00:01:21,115 --> 00:01:23,995 How much have you read about PTSD? 23 00:01:23,995 --> 00:01:25,515 How much have you studied it? 24 00:01:25,515 --> 00:01:28,995 I'm the guy who goes to a therapy session 25 00:01:28,995 --> 00:01:30,715 and at the end of it 26 00:01:30,715 --> 00:01:33,515 was given literature to read 27 00:01:33,515 --> 00:01:34,715 and didn't read it. 28 00:01:36,355 --> 00:01:39,635 Because I wanted to be away from PTSD. 29 00:01:41,155 --> 00:01:45,675 You know, I wanted to keep it at arm's length, and why? 30 00:01:45,675 --> 00:01:48,355 Because I wanted to keep doing what I was doing. 31 00:01:48,355 --> 00:01:50,395 I wanted to keep going to the wars. 32 00:01:53,195 --> 00:01:56,395 My name is Fergal Keane, I'm a reporter. 33 00:01:56,395 --> 00:01:59,795 For over 30 years, I've covered conflict for the BBC 34 00:01:59,795 --> 00:02:01,195 from across the world. 35 00:02:02,395 --> 00:02:04,635 Murder, mutilation, rape. 36 00:02:04,635 --> 00:02:08,515 It all happened here in Freetown as the rebel army swept into the city. 37 00:02:08,515 --> 00:02:12,275 Saddam Hussein and his regime have finally been destroyed. 38 00:02:12,275 --> 00:02:16,395 In that time, I've seen the best of humanity and the worst. 39 00:02:16,395 --> 00:02:19,075 Too often, I'm afraid, the worst. 40 00:02:19,075 --> 00:02:21,675 The second suicide bomber detonated his explosives 41 00:02:21,675 --> 00:02:24,795 in the middle of a crowd. People were blasted and burned. 42 00:02:24,795 --> 00:02:27,835 Even those familiar with such horror were moved. 43 00:02:27,835 --> 00:02:31,315 You can hear the shelling here behind me. 44 00:02:31,315 --> 00:02:34,715 There is no ceasefire, it's an illusion. 45 00:02:34,715 --> 00:02:37,115 It's taken a heavy toll. 46 00:02:37,115 --> 00:02:40,635 I have a condition called post-traumatic stress disorder. 47 00:02:40,635 --> 00:02:44,595 There's a set of symptoms, whether it's twitching 48 00:02:44,595 --> 00:02:47,235 and having nightmares or flashbacks. 49 00:02:47,235 --> 00:02:52,555 It's a place of extreme fear is how I would ultimately define it. 50 00:02:52,555 --> 00:02:55,635 And what's surprising is, for a journalist and someone 51 00:02:55,635 --> 00:02:59,715 who spent my life investigating things, is how little I know, 52 00:02:59,715 --> 00:03:03,835 actually, beyond my own experience. 53 00:03:03,835 --> 00:03:06,795 And maybe this process of investigation 54 00:03:06,795 --> 00:03:10,995 and talking to other people who suffer from post-traumatic stress, 55 00:03:10,995 --> 00:03:13,075 maybe that can let some light in. 56 00:03:28,835 --> 00:03:30,755 BIRDSONG 57 00:03:32,635 --> 00:03:36,235 Part of me is scared stiff making this film 58 00:03:36,235 --> 00:03:39,515 because I know it's a, it's a journey into myself. 59 00:03:40,915 --> 00:03:43,275 But I'm sick of being scared. 60 00:03:43,275 --> 00:03:47,595 And the defining characteristic of, for me, living with PTSD 61 00:03:47,595 --> 00:03:49,395 has been fear. 62 00:03:49,395 --> 00:03:52,235 You know, fear of nightmares 63 00:03:52,235 --> 00:03:53,715 where I wake up 64 00:03:53,715 --> 00:03:57,155 and I'm under a pile of bodies. 65 00:03:57,155 --> 00:03:58,555 Let's go. 66 00:03:58,555 --> 00:04:04,275 Or in my dreams, I see animals devouring human corpses. 67 00:04:04,275 --> 00:04:06,715 Come on, Pop, let's go. 68 00:04:06,715 --> 00:04:10,555 In daily life, it is as mundane as 69 00:04:10,555 --> 00:04:11,875 sitting in a room 70 00:04:11,875 --> 00:04:16,075 where somebody is trying to do the dishes and flinching, 71 00:04:16,075 --> 00:04:19,715 and saying, "Can't you hear how loud that is?" 72 00:04:19,715 --> 00:04:23,475 And them looking at you, "No..." 73 00:04:24,995 --> 00:04:29,395 Because nobody hears it as loud as I do in my head. 74 00:04:31,675 --> 00:04:34,875 And there have been people around me, who love me and care for me 75 00:04:34,875 --> 00:04:37,195 and want to reach me, 76 00:04:37,195 --> 00:04:40,115 but when you're in it, you shut them out, you isolate. 77 00:04:40,115 --> 00:04:41,555 I do. 78 00:04:45,915 --> 00:04:48,355 I always know when it's getting bad, 79 00:04:48,355 --> 00:04:50,795 because that acute sense of threat 80 00:04:50,795 --> 00:04:54,235 is louder and I feel it spiralling, you know? 81 00:04:54,235 --> 00:04:58,635 The BBC's Africa Editor and veteran war correspondent Fergal Keane 82 00:04:58,635 --> 00:05:01,355 has announced he'll be stepping down from his position, 83 00:05:01,355 --> 00:05:04,155 citing the effects of post-traumatic stress disorder. 84 00:05:04,155 --> 00:05:08,555 Fergal has reported from the front lines for the BBC since the 1980s, 85 00:05:08,555 --> 00:05:11,715 gaining widespread recognition for his coverage of the Rwandan 86 00:05:11,715 --> 00:05:13,995 genocide in 1994. 87 00:05:13,995 --> 00:05:17,875 In a statement, a BBC spokesperson said he had been dealing with 88 00:05:17,875 --> 00:05:20,555 the condition privately for several years 89 00:05:20,555 --> 00:05:23,355 and is receiving professional medical advice. 90 00:05:25,315 --> 00:05:27,955 I went to Rwanda as somebody thinking 91 00:05:27,955 --> 00:05:30,795 that I knew what war looked like. 92 00:05:30,795 --> 00:05:35,875 And I very quickly realised that genocide, 93 00:05:35,875 --> 00:05:38,915 the attempt to wipe out a whole group of people, 94 00:05:38,915 --> 00:05:40,595 was something very different. 95 00:05:42,235 --> 00:05:46,235 I found myself having nightmares, flashbacks, 96 00:05:46,235 --> 00:05:50,275 and then trying to deal with that, 97 00:05:50,275 --> 00:05:53,275 not by going to therapy, but with booze. 98 00:05:53,275 --> 00:05:55,875 I kept going to the war zones, 99 00:05:55,875 --> 00:05:57,595 trying to cure it with drinking. 100 00:05:59,155 --> 00:06:02,275 Part of me was driven by idealism. 101 00:06:02,275 --> 00:06:06,875 I believe that journalism could, could help to change things. 102 00:06:06,875 --> 00:06:09,675 But there was another part which is ego. 103 00:06:09,675 --> 00:06:13,755 I wanted to be seen, I wanted to win awards 104 00:06:13,755 --> 00:06:19,155 and I was also gradually becoming addicted 105 00:06:19,155 --> 00:06:22,475 to the adrenaline of war coverage. 106 00:06:22,475 --> 00:06:26,395 The first place that I immersed myself in that combination 107 00:06:26,395 --> 00:06:28,475 was in Northern Ireland. 108 00:06:28,475 --> 00:06:30,755 Robert Seymour was standing in this shop 109 00:06:30,755 --> 00:06:32,675 when two men chased him outside. 110 00:06:32,675 --> 00:06:35,355 There, he was shot a number of times in the head and chest. 111 00:06:35,355 --> 00:06:38,035 Robert Seymour had strong connections with the outlawed 112 00:06:38,035 --> 00:06:40,035 Ulster Volunteer Force. 113 00:06:40,035 --> 00:06:42,275 In 1983, he was convicted of sectarian murder 114 00:06:42,275 --> 00:06:43,955 in the Bennett supergrass case. 115 00:06:45,315 --> 00:06:49,835 And so that was the beginning, for me, of long immersion 116 00:06:49,835 --> 00:06:51,875 in the suffering of others. 117 00:06:53,915 --> 00:06:55,915 MALE PRESENTER: I suppose Fergal Keane, 118 00:06:55,915 --> 00:06:57,915 the acclaimed BBC war correspondent, 119 00:06:57,915 --> 00:07:01,635 was almost guaranteed to be born with the gift of the gab. 120 00:07:01,635 --> 00:07:04,435 He's the son of a renowned actor, Eamonn Keane, 121 00:07:04,435 --> 00:07:07,755 and with the playwright John B Keane for an uncle, 122 00:07:07,755 --> 00:07:10,555 the world of words and the art of communication 123 00:07:10,555 --> 00:07:14,235 has been woven deep into his DNA. 124 00:07:14,235 --> 00:07:18,395 His sometimes emotive and often harrowing reports 125 00:07:18,395 --> 00:07:22,475 from world conflict zones such as Rwanda, South Africa and Kosovo 126 00:07:22,475 --> 00:07:24,555 have gained him many awards, 127 00:07:24,555 --> 00:07:27,915 including an OBE for services to journalism. 128 00:07:27,915 --> 00:07:31,195 He's also battled successfully against alcoholism 129 00:07:31,195 --> 00:07:36,115 and has just recently vowed never to return again to the war zones. 130 00:07:38,395 --> 00:07:41,635 This is Milltown Cemetery 131 00:07:41,635 --> 00:07:45,755 and where a lot of Nationalist and Republican people 132 00:07:45,755 --> 00:07:49,155 who were killed during the Troubles are buried. 133 00:07:49,155 --> 00:07:51,475 It's also a place... 134 00:07:52,675 --> 00:07:57,675 ..that I associate with the most chaotic and, for me, 135 00:07:57,675 --> 00:08:02,755 tense and dangerous week of my experience of the Troubles. 136 00:08:02,755 --> 00:08:05,115 ARCHIVE: The funeral procession entered Milltown Cemetery, 137 00:08:05,115 --> 00:08:07,195 many thousands strong. 138 00:08:07,195 --> 00:08:10,195 Unknown to them, a man had infiltrated them. 139 00:08:10,195 --> 00:08:12,355 He threw his first grenade. 140 00:08:12,355 --> 00:08:14,315 LOUD EXPLOSION 141 00:08:14,315 --> 00:08:17,355 Many of the crowd gave chase across the cemetery in hot pursuit 142 00:08:17,355 --> 00:08:20,835 of a man who paused, turned, and threw more grenades. 143 00:08:20,835 --> 00:08:26,115 What happened here and all of the events that followed it 144 00:08:26,115 --> 00:08:29,355 just brought home to me, living in Belfast, 145 00:08:29,355 --> 00:08:31,995 how close you could get to the edge. 146 00:08:33,715 --> 00:08:36,675 But also it was one of those moments, you know, when trauma 147 00:08:36,675 --> 00:08:40,515 broke the surface. But the truth is, it was there all the time 148 00:08:40,515 --> 00:08:45,195 and you couldn't live here and not feel it, not absorb it. 149 00:08:45,195 --> 00:08:48,435 But it was only much later that I realised, you know, 150 00:08:48,435 --> 00:08:50,275 how much of it I was taking in. 151 00:08:51,395 --> 00:08:54,475 But nothing anybody could have said to me at that time 152 00:08:54,475 --> 00:08:55,755 would have stopped me. 153 00:08:55,755 --> 00:09:00,035 Had they come along and said, you know, in 30 years' time, mate, 154 00:09:00,035 --> 00:09:03,755 you're going to be going in to hospital with a mental breakdown 155 00:09:03,755 --> 00:09:06,675 from trauma, I wouldn't have believed them. 156 00:09:06,675 --> 00:09:09,995 But you have to put yourself into my head in my 20s, 157 00:09:09,995 --> 00:09:15,035 and that was somebody who suddenly felt this sense of purpose... 158 00:09:16,475 --> 00:09:19,875 ..about what he was doing, you know, because I think we all want 159 00:09:19,875 --> 00:09:24,835 to be told that we're worthwhile, that what we do is worthwhile. 160 00:09:24,835 --> 00:09:26,875 But I wanted it more than most. 161 00:09:26,875 --> 00:09:28,875 And that's a consequence, of course... 162 00:09:30,715 --> 00:09:33,955 ..of not feeling that as a child. 163 00:09:35,395 --> 00:09:38,635 I had the trauma of loving an alcoholic dad. 164 00:09:39,915 --> 00:09:42,595 As long as I can remember, I've been afraid. 165 00:09:44,315 --> 00:09:47,315 I was very afraid as a small child. 166 00:09:47,315 --> 00:09:50,275 I lived in a house with an alcoholic parent. 167 00:09:51,835 --> 00:09:56,675 And that meant, for me, an atmosphere of threat and of fear, 168 00:09:56,675 --> 00:10:01,115 constantly wondering what was coming next? 169 00:10:02,435 --> 00:10:05,635 Never being able to be certain that you were secure. 170 00:10:07,195 --> 00:10:11,235 And I look back and think, childhood prepared me 171 00:10:11,235 --> 00:10:13,595 for being in situations of risk. 172 00:10:14,795 --> 00:10:18,235 For being in situations where I needed to read other people's 173 00:10:18,235 --> 00:10:22,075 body language, and that's an amazing preparation if your later life 174 00:10:22,075 --> 00:10:27,395 is going to be working as a reporter in conflict zones. 175 00:10:27,395 --> 00:10:30,155 ARCHIVE: In the immediate aftermath, panic and fear. 176 00:10:31,275 --> 00:10:34,995 It was here near a busy rail station that the worst devastation occurred. 177 00:10:34,995 --> 00:10:38,035 The bombing left more than 50 people injured, 178 00:10:38,035 --> 00:10:39,995 nearly all of them were civilians. 179 00:10:39,995 --> 00:10:43,435 Most of the people who died here today, whose bodies still lie 180 00:10:43,435 --> 00:10:45,675 on the ground behind me, were ordinary people. 181 00:10:45,675 --> 00:10:48,275 They had no part in Sri Lanka's war. 182 00:10:48,275 --> 00:10:52,355 PRESENT DAY: The thing was that we were all aware of trauma, 183 00:10:52,355 --> 00:10:54,395 those of us who covered conflict. 184 00:10:56,035 --> 00:11:00,275 But it took a surprisingly long time for me to be actually diagnosed. 185 00:11:00,275 --> 00:11:02,315 I came to a point where I crashed. 186 00:11:03,555 --> 00:11:08,235 I was in a place of absolute despair 187 00:11:08,235 --> 00:11:10,795 and fear. 188 00:11:10,795 --> 00:11:13,675 You can't inflict that on the people around you. 189 00:11:13,675 --> 00:11:15,555 You need professional help. 190 00:11:16,915 --> 00:11:20,195 And I just, I was too tired to feel ashamed 191 00:11:20,195 --> 00:11:22,835 about being admitted to a psychiatric hospital. 192 00:11:25,115 --> 00:11:30,955 I'm at home at the moment, and I am waiting to meet Dr Niall Campbell, 193 00:11:30,955 --> 00:11:35,555 who is, like, one of the, the single most important people in my life 194 00:11:35,555 --> 00:11:38,475 because it was he who first diagnosed me 195 00:11:38,475 --> 00:11:41,715 with PTSD 13 years ago. 196 00:11:41,715 --> 00:11:45,155 This is actually my last couple of weeks in this place, 197 00:11:45,155 --> 00:11:47,075 so I'm moving in... 198 00:11:48,355 --> 00:11:51,675 Moving to a new place, but not far from here. In Barnes. 199 00:11:51,675 --> 00:11:52,995 Yeah, very close by. 200 00:11:52,995 --> 00:11:57,355 When I rocked up at The Priory 201 00:11:57,355 --> 00:12:00,395 to see you in March 2008, 202 00:12:00,395 --> 00:12:05,875 how were you able to make that diagnosis, that it was PTSD? 203 00:12:05,875 --> 00:12:10,755 Well, when you see genuine PTSD 204 00:12:10,755 --> 00:12:13,195 it's very, very characteristic. 205 00:12:13,195 --> 00:12:16,635 There's three areas of symptoms in PTSD. 206 00:12:16,635 --> 00:12:20,155 First of all, as in the title, you need the trauma, 207 00:12:20,155 --> 00:12:22,355 you need to have had a trauma. 208 00:12:22,355 --> 00:12:26,435 And then there's the intrusive memories... Tick. 209 00:12:26,435 --> 00:12:29,235 ..where you remember the bad thing that happened. 210 00:12:29,235 --> 00:12:31,915 You have dreams relating to the memories. Also. 211 00:12:31,915 --> 00:12:35,955 You have flashbacks, you think you are back in the situation. 212 00:12:35,955 --> 00:12:39,635 And then there's the distresser reminders, if it's on the news, 213 00:12:39,635 --> 00:12:43,475 or somebody mentions the thing, it brings it all back again. 214 00:12:43,475 --> 00:12:46,515 The avoidance symptoms, where you avoid talking about it, you avoid 215 00:12:46,515 --> 00:12:48,995 thinking about it, and then there's the arousal symptoms - 216 00:12:48,995 --> 00:12:51,915 people feel jittery, edgy, can't sleep. 217 00:12:51,915 --> 00:12:56,635 As a condition, it was only invented in 1978. 218 00:12:56,635 --> 00:13:01,075 It was first called that. It had many other names before. Shellshock. 219 00:13:01,075 --> 00:13:02,555 All that sort of thing. 220 00:13:02,555 --> 00:13:06,355 Yeah, battle exhaustion, etc. 221 00:13:06,355 --> 00:13:09,675 Is this a wise thing for me to be doing? Yes, it is. 222 00:13:09,675 --> 00:13:12,915 You always wanted to do a documentary about this sometime. 223 00:13:12,915 --> 00:13:16,115 The danger, of course, that it opens up stuff and makes you think 224 00:13:16,115 --> 00:13:19,635 about things, and you get reminded, but you've got help. 225 00:13:19,635 --> 00:13:22,355 You know what to do if you've got a problem. 226 00:13:22,355 --> 00:13:24,915 DRAMATIC MUSIC 227 00:13:28,275 --> 00:13:30,875 The trauma of war is as old as war itself, 228 00:13:30,875 --> 00:13:34,075 but it's only in the modern age that we've begun to treat 229 00:13:34,075 --> 00:13:36,675 the mental scars of battle as an illness. 230 00:13:38,115 --> 00:13:40,475 One of the most harrowing documentaries I've watched 231 00:13:40,475 --> 00:13:44,395 is by the Hollywood director John Huston, who filmed traumatised 232 00:13:44,395 --> 00:13:47,875 World War II veterans trying to adjust to civilian life. 233 00:13:49,875 --> 00:13:53,115 COMMENTARY: This hospital is one of the many for the care and treatment 234 00:13:53,115 --> 00:13:55,355 of the psychoneurotic soldier. 235 00:13:55,355 --> 00:13:58,635 We're going back now, going back to Okinawa. 236 00:13:58,635 --> 00:14:00,235 You can remember. 237 00:14:00,235 --> 00:14:02,275 Tell me what you see. 238 00:14:02,275 --> 00:14:04,275 Getting shells thrown at us. 239 00:14:04,275 --> 00:14:06,555 You're getting shells thrown at you? 240 00:14:06,555 --> 00:14:09,395 Yes, go on. You remember it now? 241 00:14:09,395 --> 00:14:12,715 Tell me. It's all right now, but you can tell me. 242 00:14:15,475 --> 00:14:19,395 Watch this guy, this poor guy, and you can see in him 243 00:14:19,395 --> 00:14:21,995 what battle has done to him, and it's... 244 00:14:24,235 --> 00:14:28,555 It's inside him, he's there, he's back in that place. 245 00:14:28,555 --> 00:14:33,355 And, you know, you don't have to be, to be back there 246 00:14:33,355 --> 00:14:35,995 in the sense of just seeing the same images, 247 00:14:35,995 --> 00:14:38,515 but physically, you're back there. 248 00:14:38,515 --> 00:14:42,115 For me, you know, a flashback or intrusive memory, 249 00:14:42,115 --> 00:14:45,435 it's something that triggers cold sweat. 250 00:14:46,555 --> 00:14:51,035 I mean, cold sweat and, like, shivering inside. 251 00:14:53,075 --> 00:14:55,755 I'm not a pleasant person when I'm in it. 252 00:14:55,755 --> 00:15:00,355 I am suspicious to the point of paranoia. 253 00:15:00,355 --> 00:15:02,635 I'm angry. 254 00:15:02,635 --> 00:15:04,115 I snap. 255 00:15:04,115 --> 00:15:06,515 But when I'm in that zone, 256 00:15:06,515 --> 00:15:08,355 people don't know what to expect. 257 00:15:11,035 --> 00:15:13,355 I am aware of people tiptoeing around me. 258 00:15:14,995 --> 00:15:16,435 I'm aware of them... 259 00:15:17,835 --> 00:15:20,715 ..being careful about what they say 260 00:15:20,715 --> 00:15:22,795 so as not to provoke me. 261 00:15:24,355 --> 00:15:25,955 It's shite. 262 00:15:25,955 --> 00:15:28,195 It really is. 263 00:15:28,195 --> 00:15:31,435 In many ways, it's the worst thing about this. 264 00:15:35,915 --> 00:15:39,235 In 1990, I got the job I'd always wanted - 265 00:15:39,235 --> 00:15:42,115 Southern Africa correspondent of the BBC. 266 00:15:45,155 --> 00:15:48,755 And I arrived into a situation which was like a roller-coaster. 267 00:15:48,755 --> 00:15:53,595 You had terrible violence taking place in the townships. 268 00:15:53,595 --> 00:15:55,675 Horrific scenes. 269 00:15:55,675 --> 00:15:58,475 ARCHIVE: For the second successive day, the people of these townships 270 00:15:58,475 --> 00:16:02,115 are enduring what amounts to a state of siege. 271 00:16:02,115 --> 00:16:06,595 At the same time, you had this sense that history was bringing Mandela 272 00:16:06,595 --> 00:16:11,675 and black South Africa to the place where they always should have been, 273 00:16:11,675 --> 00:16:14,635 the rulers of the country, black majority rulers. 274 00:16:14,635 --> 00:16:16,715 Fergal, it must be a fantastic moment. 275 00:16:16,715 --> 00:16:18,635 It is indeed, the party is in full swing 276 00:16:18,635 --> 00:16:20,795 here at the Union Buildings in Pretoria. 277 00:16:20,795 --> 00:16:23,675 Yes, how are you, ladies and gentlemen? 278 00:16:23,675 --> 00:16:25,475 I don't see the ladies. 279 00:16:25,475 --> 00:16:29,075 So to have a ringside seat on that was, on one level, 280 00:16:29,075 --> 00:16:31,795 quite scary because of the violence, 281 00:16:31,795 --> 00:16:34,435 but on another, it really lifted your spirits. 282 00:16:34,435 --> 00:16:37,275 Then everything changed. 283 00:16:37,275 --> 00:16:41,515 I went to Rwanda in the late spring of 1994 284 00:16:41,515 --> 00:16:45,035 after getting a call from the BBC in London, asking me to present 285 00:16:45,035 --> 00:16:48,115 a documentary on massacres that were taking place 286 00:16:48,115 --> 00:16:51,315 in this tiny country 2,000 miles to the north. 287 00:16:54,515 --> 00:16:57,475 I suppose I was flattered to be asked to go and do this 288 00:16:57,475 --> 00:17:00,235 for Panorama. I was a radio reporter at the time. 289 00:17:00,235 --> 00:17:03,875 Maybe my ego? Well, this is a great opportunity, go do it. 290 00:17:03,875 --> 00:17:05,995 I'm just leaving Tanzania. 291 00:17:05,995 --> 00:17:08,635 Ahead of me, the border with Rwanda, 292 00:17:08,635 --> 00:17:11,195 the country where some of the worst crimes against humanity 293 00:17:11,195 --> 00:17:13,555 of this century have been committed. 294 00:17:13,555 --> 00:17:17,075 There's a sign over there which says, "Welcome to Rwanda". 295 00:17:17,075 --> 00:17:20,435 But before you even set foot in the country, below me in the waters 296 00:17:20,435 --> 00:17:22,955 of the Kagera River is stark evidence 297 00:17:22,955 --> 00:17:25,035 of what's been happening here. 298 00:17:25,035 --> 00:17:29,075 Evidence of Rwanda's journey into darkness. 299 00:17:31,875 --> 00:17:35,155 What I witnessed there changed my life. 300 00:17:35,155 --> 00:17:38,275 I encountered the worst of human cruelty 301 00:17:38,275 --> 00:17:40,435 and the limits of my own courage. 302 00:17:40,435 --> 00:17:44,915 Rwanda returns in nightmares, anxiety, a sense of failure 303 00:17:44,915 --> 00:17:49,595 as a human being that helps to drive my PTSD. 304 00:17:49,595 --> 00:17:51,635 For several years, I've tried to shut it out, 305 00:17:51,635 --> 00:17:54,275 but I wonder if that stops healing? 306 00:17:54,275 --> 00:17:57,035 PANORAMA THEME PLAYS 307 00:17:57,035 --> 00:17:59,115 During the process of making this film, 308 00:17:59,115 --> 00:18:03,435 I have had this feeling in my head, "This is not doing you good. 309 00:18:03,435 --> 00:18:05,635 "This isn't helping you." 310 00:18:05,635 --> 00:18:10,315 Because it's meant revisiting all kinds of anxieties 311 00:18:10,315 --> 00:18:11,955 and nightmares. 312 00:18:13,715 --> 00:18:16,195 And I feel that strongly today. 313 00:18:16,195 --> 00:18:20,275 Yes, I've been advised to confront Rwanda, 314 00:18:20,275 --> 00:18:21,795 but I'm... 315 00:18:22,755 --> 00:18:25,595 ..not looking forward to doing it. I really am not. 316 00:18:25,595 --> 00:18:30,315 And today, I'm going to meet somebody I was in Rwanda with, 317 00:18:30,315 --> 00:18:32,275 a really, really brave woman. 318 00:18:32,275 --> 00:18:36,715 She and I have not spoken about what it was like to be there 319 00:18:36,715 --> 00:18:41,355 25 and more years ago now. 320 00:18:41,355 --> 00:18:43,195 And so I'm really apprehensive. 321 00:18:44,795 --> 00:18:46,955 Good to see you. 322 00:18:49,315 --> 00:18:51,315 Good to see you. 323 00:18:51,315 --> 00:18:54,395 Are you dreading this as much as I am? I am. OK, good. 324 00:18:54,395 --> 00:18:55,795 We can do that together. 325 00:18:55,795 --> 00:18:57,875 My heart's been beating all the way coming here. 326 00:18:57,875 --> 00:18:59,555 It's all right. Yeah. 327 00:18:59,555 --> 00:19:01,515 How are you? You're looking well. 328 00:19:01,515 --> 00:19:04,355 I'm not bad. I'm not bad. And you too. 329 00:19:04,355 --> 00:19:06,755 Yeah. Come on. Have a seat. 330 00:19:06,755 --> 00:19:08,875 Cup of tea? Oh, yeah. 331 00:19:08,875 --> 00:19:11,435 Let's get a cup of tea. Coffee? All right. 332 00:19:11,435 --> 00:19:14,315 What's your first memory of the place? I don't know. 333 00:19:14,315 --> 00:19:18,715 You could smell death, and that's all you can say. You... 334 00:19:20,195 --> 00:19:23,795 You know, I'd covered South Africa, I'd covered the violence, 335 00:19:23,795 --> 00:19:28,075 I'd seen, kind of, necklacing and you know, people dying 336 00:19:28,075 --> 00:19:30,195 with burning tyres around them. 337 00:19:30,195 --> 00:19:32,195 But Rwanda was on another scale. 338 00:19:32,195 --> 00:19:34,395 Skulls in toilets. 339 00:19:34,395 --> 00:19:38,075 you know, young bodies, 340 00:19:38,075 --> 00:19:42,915 kids with scars, the kind of size of your hand, 341 00:19:42,915 --> 00:19:46,835 they're just gaping wounds, and the kind of brutality 342 00:19:46,835 --> 00:19:51,715 and the kind of visual remnants of it everywhere. 343 00:19:55,715 --> 00:19:59,155 I had seen war before, had seen the face of cruelty, 344 00:19:59,155 --> 00:20:02,235 but Nyarubuye belonged in a nightmare zone 345 00:20:02,235 --> 00:20:06,275 where my capacity to understand, to rationalise, was overwhelmed. 346 00:20:07,315 --> 00:20:10,195 The victims, all of them Tutsis, had gone to the church 347 00:20:10,195 --> 00:20:11,995 in search of sanctuary. 348 00:20:11,995 --> 00:20:15,595 Instead, the house of God became a killing ground. 349 00:20:18,875 --> 00:20:21,075 I've never watched the film again. 350 00:20:21,075 --> 00:20:23,995 I just didn't want to kind of go back there. 351 00:20:23,995 --> 00:20:27,195 I understand that so well. 352 00:20:27,195 --> 00:20:29,475 Those kids, I mean, for me, it was those kids 353 00:20:29,475 --> 00:20:32,515 and those that were left behind and, you know, 354 00:20:32,515 --> 00:20:36,755 the wounded that you saw along the road, and people with 355 00:20:36,755 --> 00:20:40,755 arms chopped off or the kind of walking dead. 356 00:20:40,755 --> 00:20:42,635 Yeah. 357 00:20:42,635 --> 00:20:46,115 You know, and it kind of becomes a piece of history. 358 00:20:46,115 --> 00:20:49,555 But when you've kind of lived that piece of history, 359 00:20:49,555 --> 00:20:51,595 I don't think it ever leaves you. 360 00:20:51,595 --> 00:20:54,235 And it's one day at a time. 361 00:20:54,235 --> 00:20:58,755 And that I learned when I kind of, you know, in the space of 362 00:20:58,755 --> 00:21:01,315 a very short time, I lost my husband, 363 00:21:01,315 --> 00:21:03,395 my mother was on her deathbed, 364 00:21:03,395 --> 00:21:06,635 and the child I'd given birth to 365 00:21:06,635 --> 00:21:10,875 was kind of in intensive care and I was going to be burying him. 366 00:21:12,915 --> 00:21:15,795 And I think that's the other thing, that's the selfishness on the part 367 00:21:15,795 --> 00:21:19,275 of human beings, that it doesn't matter how much I saw in Rwanda, 368 00:21:19,275 --> 00:21:24,675 it wasn't until it affected me, personally, in my own life 369 00:21:24,675 --> 00:21:28,555 that I think that all of those levels of trauma 370 00:21:28,555 --> 00:21:30,595 kind of came to the fore. 371 00:21:30,595 --> 00:21:33,235 And I remember when I was sitting there with my son, 372 00:21:33,235 --> 00:21:34,835 Rwanda came into my head. 373 00:21:34,835 --> 00:21:38,995 I literally hugged him and I begged for his life. 374 00:21:38,995 --> 00:21:44,035 And I just thought, those poor children, those orphans, you know, 375 00:21:44,035 --> 00:21:47,875 who'd lost absolutely everything, everything. 376 00:21:49,115 --> 00:21:51,315 You know. Yeah... 377 00:21:52,475 --> 00:21:56,875 I mean, for somebody like you who's kind of gone through the worst, 378 00:21:56,875 --> 00:22:00,435 you know, the depths of it with your drink and, you know, 379 00:22:00,435 --> 00:22:02,075 points where I've seen you... 380 00:22:02,075 --> 00:22:03,675 Hmm. 381 00:22:03,675 --> 00:22:06,235 ..I remember trying to broach it with you a number of times, 382 00:22:06,235 --> 00:22:07,915 but you just couldn't deal with it. 383 00:22:07,915 --> 00:22:10,635 It was always, oh, F-off, you know, where you just think, 384 00:22:10,635 --> 00:22:14,395 how can this kind of human being, who's so together on some levels 385 00:22:14,395 --> 00:22:18,315 and yet, on other levels is just like a complete... 386 00:22:19,835 --> 00:22:22,795 Wreck? Yeah. F-up! Yeah. That's so true. 387 00:22:22,795 --> 00:22:26,875 You know, and you've pulled through. I mean, for somebody to come 388 00:22:26,875 --> 00:22:29,955 from a state of alcoholism 389 00:22:29,955 --> 00:22:31,715 right to where you are now, 390 00:22:31,715 --> 00:22:34,995 where you've been dry for what, over 20 years? 391 00:22:34,995 --> 00:22:38,435 I mean, my God, if you can't pat yourself on the back for that, 392 00:22:38,435 --> 00:22:39,675 Fergal... 393 00:22:43,635 --> 00:22:45,075 Come on! 394 00:22:45,075 --> 00:22:47,795 Come on, come on! 395 00:22:48,995 --> 00:22:51,315 Come on. Yeah, yeah. 396 00:22:51,315 --> 00:22:54,475 I expected that to be emotional and it was. 397 00:22:54,475 --> 00:22:57,715 But I think in a, in a very positive way. 398 00:22:57,715 --> 00:23:02,795 I do feel, though, if anything, it's made me realise just how much 399 00:23:02,795 --> 00:23:07,875 work there is still to be done in terms of the Rwandan genocide, 400 00:23:07,875 --> 00:23:09,915 and, er... 401 00:23:09,915 --> 00:23:13,875 ..and facing up to the emotions of that time. 402 00:23:13,875 --> 00:23:16,435 For example, I can't even look at the full film 403 00:23:16,435 --> 00:23:18,475 that we made back then. 404 00:23:18,475 --> 00:23:20,675 And that's a kind of avoidance. 405 00:23:21,715 --> 00:23:23,155 It's very, very... 406 00:23:24,755 --> 00:23:26,115 ..painful. 407 00:23:28,635 --> 00:23:31,475 Would it be a good time 408 00:23:31,475 --> 00:23:33,355 to talk about 409 00:23:33,355 --> 00:23:36,555 your ways of coping... Drink? ..in those early days? 410 00:23:36,555 --> 00:23:38,275 Yeah, yeah, let's go for it. 411 00:23:38,275 --> 00:23:39,835 Yeah! Why not? 412 00:23:39,835 --> 00:23:41,195 LAUGHTER 413 00:23:41,195 --> 00:23:44,115 I remember... 414 00:23:45,475 --> 00:23:46,875 ..what it was like... 415 00:23:48,315 --> 00:23:50,515 ..to drink the first beer... 416 00:23:52,355 --> 00:23:59,555 ..and the phenomenal ease that spread through my body. 417 00:23:59,555 --> 00:24:02,755 It was like somebody had let the air out. 418 00:24:02,755 --> 00:24:04,795 HE EXHALES 419 00:24:04,795 --> 00:24:08,515 And that was how I learned to medicate myself. 420 00:24:10,155 --> 00:24:14,115 I was one of these highly-functioning alcoholics. 421 00:24:14,115 --> 00:24:18,395 I had some of my greatest career success when I was still drinking. 422 00:24:18,395 --> 00:24:19,715 But... 423 00:24:21,075 --> 00:24:22,875 ..I was a mess. 424 00:24:22,875 --> 00:24:25,795 I was obviously suffering from PTSD, but it hadn't been diagnosed. 425 00:24:27,515 --> 00:24:30,995 But what was bloody clear and didn't need expert diagnosis 426 00:24:30,995 --> 00:24:33,995 was that my alcoholism was out of control. 427 00:24:36,035 --> 00:24:37,275 And... 428 00:24:38,875 --> 00:24:40,875 ..I went into rehab. 429 00:24:40,875 --> 00:24:44,155 It was life saving. 430 00:24:49,275 --> 00:24:52,875 South Africa, but particularly Rwanda, won me prizes 431 00:24:52,875 --> 00:24:54,315 and made me a name. 432 00:24:54,315 --> 00:24:56,995 And the result of that was that the BBC gave me a plum job. 433 00:24:56,995 --> 00:25:01,275 I was sent to Hong Kong to cover the last years of the British Empire 434 00:25:01,275 --> 00:25:03,875 and the transition to Chinese rule. 435 00:25:03,875 --> 00:25:07,355 ARCHIVE: The last rites of the British era have been performed. 436 00:25:07,355 --> 00:25:09,555 The illuminations you see in the sky behind me 437 00:25:09,555 --> 00:25:11,595 are a last gesture of farewell. 438 00:25:11,595 --> 00:25:16,275 PRESENT DAY: And at a career level, I was flying high. 439 00:25:16,275 --> 00:25:17,675 Inside... 440 00:25:18,635 --> 00:25:22,435 ..I was really starting to question 441 00:25:22,435 --> 00:25:25,315 what I was doing, why I was doing it. 442 00:25:27,595 --> 00:25:30,595 "My dear son, it is six o'clock in the morning 443 00:25:30,595 --> 00:25:32,515 "on the island of Hong Kong. 444 00:25:32,515 --> 00:25:34,555 "You are asleep, cradled in my left arm, 445 00:25:34,555 --> 00:25:37,675 "and I am learning the art of one-handed typing. 446 00:25:37,675 --> 00:25:41,275 "Your coming has turned me upside down and inside out. 447 00:25:41,275 --> 00:25:44,475 "So much that seemed essential to me has, in the past few days, 448 00:25:44,475 --> 00:25:46,515 "taken on a different colour. 449 00:25:46,515 --> 00:25:49,995 "Like many foreign correspondents I know, I've lived a life 450 00:25:49,995 --> 00:25:52,835 "that, on occasion, has veered close to the edge - 451 00:25:52,835 --> 00:25:54,635 "war zones, natural disasters, 452 00:25:54,635 --> 00:25:56,875 "darkness in all its shapes and forms." 453 00:26:00,795 --> 00:26:03,635 The mystery is, why did I need to go back to it? 454 00:26:03,635 --> 00:26:07,235 Why did I need to be in places where I would be terrified? 455 00:26:07,235 --> 00:26:11,315 ARCHIVE: We followed US Special Forces and marines 456 00:26:11,315 --> 00:26:13,755 conducting room-to-room searches. 457 00:26:14,795 --> 00:26:18,995 Don't tell me it was a rational response to keep going back 458 00:26:18,995 --> 00:26:22,515 to places that...where there was a chance of being killed. 459 00:26:22,515 --> 00:26:24,515 ARCHIVE: These are survivors. 460 00:26:24,515 --> 00:26:26,755 40 of their playmates are dead, 461 00:26:26,755 --> 00:26:29,795 40 children hacked and speared by the militia. 462 00:26:29,795 --> 00:26:32,315 PRESENT DAY: I wanted to go back again and again, 463 00:26:32,315 --> 00:26:35,715 and I would find all kinds of rationale for doing it. 464 00:26:35,715 --> 00:26:39,755 As we entered Qana, the sirens warned of a major tragedy. 465 00:26:42,195 --> 00:26:45,035 It was vitally important that I tell the story. 466 00:26:45,035 --> 00:26:47,675 It was important that I bear witness. 467 00:26:47,675 --> 00:26:51,075 The UN escorted us into the territory worst hit by violence, 468 00:26:51,075 --> 00:26:54,155 towards a village that has become notorious 469 00:26:54,155 --> 00:26:57,555 for an atrocity committed by men loyal to Nkunda. 470 00:26:57,555 --> 00:27:00,155 And of course, these were parts of the truth, 471 00:27:00,155 --> 00:27:01,595 but not the whole truth. 472 00:27:01,595 --> 00:27:03,315 Truth was, I couldn't stop. 473 00:27:03,315 --> 00:27:06,195 The imam's son was among the dead, and behind the mosque, 474 00:27:06,195 --> 00:27:09,435 we saw the shallow graves in which he and others had been buried. 475 00:27:09,435 --> 00:27:12,475 Their clothes still lay scattered on the ground. 476 00:27:12,475 --> 00:27:17,115 I was drawn to this, you know, like a moth to the flame. 477 00:27:17,115 --> 00:27:20,795 In spite of the promises made to civilians that they will be 478 00:27:20,795 --> 00:27:24,155 protected during time of war, for the people of Bint Jbeil 479 00:27:24,155 --> 00:27:26,435 there was no protection at all. 480 00:27:26,435 --> 00:27:29,115 Fergal Keane, BBC News, Bint Jbeil. 481 00:27:39,275 --> 00:27:41,795 One of the things that's really struck me, 482 00:27:41,795 --> 00:27:45,795 whether I'm covering a conflict in Central Africa 483 00:27:45,795 --> 00:27:48,395 or in the Balkans or Ukraine, 484 00:27:48,395 --> 00:27:50,635 is I keep asking myself, 485 00:27:50,635 --> 00:27:52,875 what did the history do, 486 00:27:52,875 --> 00:27:56,115 not just to the country, but to the minds of the people, 487 00:27:56,115 --> 00:27:57,915 to their mentality? 488 00:27:59,275 --> 00:28:01,155 Don't tell me it didn't affect them. 489 00:28:05,675 --> 00:28:09,315 I've always been fascinated by history, and as I get older, 490 00:28:09,315 --> 00:28:10,955 my own family history. 491 00:28:10,955 --> 00:28:15,475 Scientists are researching possible historic family links to conditions 492 00:28:15,475 --> 00:28:17,755 like depression and PTSD. 493 00:28:17,755 --> 00:28:20,475 They call it transgenerational trauma. 494 00:28:22,515 --> 00:28:28,235 I mean, I have to say that I'm never someone who has believed in history 495 00:28:28,235 --> 00:28:32,155 as an alibi, so I behave in a certain way because my own lot 496 00:28:32,155 --> 00:28:35,435 were treated appallingly or suffered terribly. 497 00:28:36,755 --> 00:28:40,395 You know, for me, the essence of getting well is about my own 498 00:28:40,395 --> 00:28:42,835 responsibility for where I am now. 499 00:28:42,835 --> 00:28:44,035 But... 500 00:28:44,995 --> 00:28:47,075 ..it might help me to get better 501 00:28:47,075 --> 00:28:49,755 to know how much of this 502 00:28:49,755 --> 00:28:52,795 was shaped by the experiences of the past. 503 00:28:55,795 --> 00:29:00,395 I'm thinking about what I carry, what we carry, 504 00:29:00,395 --> 00:29:06,195 and I'm in a place which was devastated during the Great Famine 505 00:29:06,195 --> 00:29:07,995 of the 19th century. 506 00:29:07,995 --> 00:29:12,515 And which was then convulsed by a revolutionary war 507 00:29:12,515 --> 00:29:16,275 and then by a civil war in which my grandmother 508 00:29:16,275 --> 00:29:19,635 and other members of the family took part. 509 00:29:22,075 --> 00:29:26,995 My grandmother would have been 19 or there or thereabouts when she became 510 00:29:26,995 --> 00:29:30,795 embroiled in this conflict here in Listowel. 511 00:29:30,795 --> 00:29:34,435 She grew up here and I used to come here on summer holidays, 512 00:29:34,435 --> 00:29:36,675 and I remember a woman who was 513 00:29:36,675 --> 00:29:40,715 vivacious, funny, extremely clever, 514 00:29:40,715 --> 00:29:43,035 but who could also be struck 515 00:29:43,035 --> 00:29:45,195 by the most debilitating 516 00:29:45,195 --> 00:29:47,635 depressions and anxiety. 517 00:29:49,475 --> 00:29:53,075 My grandmother, Hanna, was an extremely brave woman. 518 00:29:53,075 --> 00:29:57,195 What I remember of her is the welcome, is the kindness. 519 00:29:57,195 --> 00:30:00,235 Then moments, periods 520 00:30:00,235 --> 00:30:04,035 when she would take to the bed 521 00:30:04,035 --> 00:30:06,115 with what we in Ireland called, "the nerves". 522 00:30:06,115 --> 00:30:11,835 Now myself, having been more than touched by a touch of the nerves, 523 00:30:11,835 --> 00:30:14,075 God, I have such compassion for her. 524 00:30:14,075 --> 00:30:18,835 And I'm lucky. You know, I live in an enlightened time, she didn't. 525 00:30:18,835 --> 00:30:22,115 She lived in a time where it was whispered about, 526 00:30:22,115 --> 00:30:24,115 and I wish she had lived 527 00:30:24,115 --> 00:30:26,515 in more enlightened times. 528 00:30:26,515 --> 00:30:27,995 That's all I can say. 529 00:30:27,995 --> 00:30:32,275 She was greatly loved by her children and by her grandchildren. 530 00:30:32,275 --> 00:30:35,915 But she had that loneliness that I know, 531 00:30:35,915 --> 00:30:37,835 the loneliness of mental illness. 532 00:30:42,915 --> 00:30:45,515 I think it's one thing to know that my grandmother 533 00:30:45,515 --> 00:30:49,195 went through the horror of that war of insurgency, 534 00:30:49,195 --> 00:30:51,155 the civil war that followed, 535 00:30:51,155 --> 00:30:53,995 to know that her people before her 536 00:30:53,995 --> 00:30:58,755 lived through the appalling trauma of the Great Famine and survived it. 537 00:31:00,155 --> 00:31:03,795 But I have to ask, did that make any difference to me? 538 00:31:03,795 --> 00:31:06,275 Has that shaped me in any way? 539 00:31:06,275 --> 00:31:08,515 Can trauma be handed on? 540 00:31:08,515 --> 00:31:11,395 And I'm going to go and see someone who I think 541 00:31:11,395 --> 00:31:13,595 might have some answers to that. 542 00:31:15,275 --> 00:31:18,075 He's someone I know and whose work I really respect, 543 00:31:18,075 --> 00:31:21,795 one of the foremost practitioners and thinkers in this field, 544 00:31:21,795 --> 00:31:24,955 the former president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, 545 00:31:24,955 --> 00:31:26,595 Professor Simon Wessely. 546 00:31:28,595 --> 00:31:32,675 Do you think that my great grandparents, for example, 547 00:31:32,675 --> 00:31:36,515 are children of the family of the Irish famine, 548 00:31:36,515 --> 00:31:39,235 my grandmother fought in the War of Independence, 549 00:31:39,235 --> 00:31:43,635 does the fact that she experienced wartime trauma and then years later 550 00:31:43,635 --> 00:31:46,395 is struck down with severe depression, 551 00:31:46,395 --> 00:31:49,635 does it make it in any way more likely that I would? 552 00:31:49,635 --> 00:31:52,675 Well... Experience these things? 553 00:31:52,675 --> 00:31:56,275 The problem always here, though, is that 554 00:31:56,275 --> 00:31:58,035 talking to a single person, 555 00:31:58,035 --> 00:32:00,515 it's very difficult to make these kind of links. 556 00:32:00,515 --> 00:32:03,555 But I can say over 1,000 people, 557 00:32:03,555 --> 00:32:08,395 there will be links between a family history of trauma 558 00:32:08,395 --> 00:32:13,475 and a person's chances of getting it, they are increased. 559 00:32:13,475 --> 00:32:17,555 That's true. That does not mean that there's a one to one relationship 560 00:32:17,555 --> 00:32:19,435 or anything even close to that. 561 00:32:19,435 --> 00:32:23,995 Why did I get PTSD and other people I know... 562 00:32:25,675 --> 00:32:29,955 ..didn't get it? Other people who went through traumatic events? 563 00:32:29,955 --> 00:32:31,795 Can you tell why? 564 00:32:31,795 --> 00:32:36,035 It is incredibly difficult in any given individual to say 565 00:32:36,035 --> 00:32:40,315 why this person got it, why you got it and your neighbour didn't. 566 00:32:40,315 --> 00:32:43,755 What you can do, you can say, you can identify someone as being 567 00:32:43,755 --> 00:32:46,795 at slightly higher risk, but we did a quite... 568 00:32:46,795 --> 00:32:50,075 We did a natural experiment before the war in Iraq, 569 00:32:50,075 --> 00:32:52,715 we screened all the British forces in Germany 570 00:32:52,715 --> 00:32:54,515 and then the war in Iraq came. 571 00:32:54,515 --> 00:32:56,755 That was nothing to do with us, but it just so happened 572 00:32:56,755 --> 00:32:58,755 that we had just finished screening them all. 573 00:32:58,755 --> 00:33:02,035 We kept the data. We then follow them all up and found out 574 00:33:02,035 --> 00:33:04,155 who had had problems, who hadn't. 575 00:33:04,155 --> 00:33:07,155 And we could predict some. Yes, we could. 576 00:33:07,155 --> 00:33:10,755 But for everyone we got right, we got six wrong. 577 00:33:10,755 --> 00:33:13,995 So that's six people whose lives we would have wrecked 578 00:33:13,995 --> 00:33:16,355 because they wouldn't have been allowed to go to war, 579 00:33:16,355 --> 00:33:17,875 or six journalists who had been told, 580 00:33:17,875 --> 00:33:19,515 "You can't be a foreign correspondent", 581 00:33:19,515 --> 00:33:21,355 and yet, they would have been very good 582 00:33:21,355 --> 00:33:23,995 for one we'd correctly identified. Wow. 583 00:33:23,995 --> 00:33:26,795 So that tells you the difficulties we face 584 00:33:26,795 --> 00:33:28,875 when you ask me a question like that. 585 00:33:34,075 --> 00:33:38,835 Nobody can say with certainty why some get PTSD and others don't. 586 00:33:38,835 --> 00:33:43,075 But for those who do, fighting it alone can be painful. 587 00:33:43,075 --> 00:33:44,875 I'm privileged. 588 00:33:44,875 --> 00:33:47,995 I've had the support of my bosses, access to medication 589 00:33:47,995 --> 00:33:51,435 and hospital care, and I've been in therapy for some years. 590 00:33:53,075 --> 00:33:55,875 The PTSD that I've been diagnosed with, 591 00:33:55,875 --> 00:33:59,315 complex PTSD, 592 00:33:59,315 --> 00:34:01,315 essentially means... 593 00:34:01,315 --> 00:34:03,715 ..a trauma that arises 594 00:34:03,715 --> 00:34:09,275 from witnessing multiple traumatic events. 595 00:34:09,275 --> 00:34:13,755 So again, and again, and again, in my case. 596 00:34:16,395 --> 00:34:20,835 It was around, I think, 2008, there or thereabouts, 597 00:34:20,835 --> 00:34:24,715 when I was given a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder. 598 00:34:24,715 --> 00:34:28,355 And it was an incredibly important moment, 599 00:34:28,355 --> 00:34:31,355 not because it, you know, gave me temporary relief 600 00:34:31,355 --> 00:34:35,115 from what I was going through, but I formed a vital relationship. 601 00:34:35,115 --> 00:34:38,555 I think one that has undoubtedly brought me to the place 602 00:34:38,555 --> 00:34:41,155 where I'm able to say, no more war, 603 00:34:41,155 --> 00:34:43,595 no more putting my mind 604 00:34:43,595 --> 00:34:46,075 through what I've put it through. 605 00:34:47,595 --> 00:34:50,675 How does it feel for you to be here at this place? Great. 606 00:34:50,675 --> 00:34:53,395 I've only happy memories. Yeah, really? Happy? 607 00:34:53,395 --> 00:34:57,875 Yeah, because, you know, I came in, whenever I've come in, 608 00:34:57,875 --> 00:35:00,875 it's been in deep despair and panic. Mm-hm. 609 00:35:00,875 --> 00:35:04,075 But, erm, I always felt safe. 610 00:35:04,075 --> 00:35:06,435 I got sober here and... 611 00:35:07,795 --> 00:35:09,595 ..I started working with you. 612 00:35:10,835 --> 00:35:13,675 One of the therapy techniques I practised with Cristina 613 00:35:13,675 --> 00:35:17,355 is something called Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing, 614 00:35:17,355 --> 00:35:19,995 or EMDR for short. 615 00:35:19,995 --> 00:35:21,995 I found it helpful. 616 00:35:24,435 --> 00:35:27,835 So EMDR is a technique that is based on research 617 00:35:27,835 --> 00:35:31,315 done with the rapid eye movements, REM, 618 00:35:31,315 --> 00:35:32,955 you probably have heard of that. 619 00:35:32,955 --> 00:35:34,795 So, as you probably know, during the night 620 00:35:34,795 --> 00:35:39,275 when we are sleeping, there are moments when our eyes move rapidly. 621 00:35:39,275 --> 00:35:43,315 And there is research that shows that if you pair the 622 00:35:43,315 --> 00:35:45,955 rapid eye movements with dreams, 623 00:35:45,955 --> 00:35:48,595 very often the emotional content 624 00:35:48,595 --> 00:35:52,275 of the dreams gets process, which means that then the person 625 00:35:52,275 --> 00:35:55,315 feels better about it, which is what we want, in simple. 626 00:35:55,315 --> 00:35:58,155 So the technique, it tries to replicate that 627 00:35:58,155 --> 00:35:59,955 when the person is awake. 628 00:35:59,955 --> 00:36:01,795 The way I understand it, 629 00:36:01,795 --> 00:36:05,235 EMDR gives me a chance... 630 00:36:06,275 --> 00:36:10,195 ..to process painful images and memories. 631 00:36:10,195 --> 00:36:14,675 And I guess, at its simplest, it's about taking pain out, 632 00:36:14,675 --> 00:36:18,395 putting it into a place where I can live with it. 633 00:36:18,395 --> 00:36:20,075 I'll give you an example. 634 00:36:20,075 --> 00:36:24,195 Back in 2006, I was reporting from Lebanon when I was caught up 635 00:36:24,195 --> 00:36:25,995 in a mortar attack. 636 00:36:25,995 --> 00:36:28,595 They've just landed a shell right beside us. 637 00:36:30,435 --> 00:36:33,075 As we raced away, another shell came in. 638 00:36:33,075 --> 00:36:35,355 Hang on, hang on. SHARP BANG 639 00:36:36,795 --> 00:36:39,235 We ran to help the wounded. 640 00:36:39,235 --> 00:36:43,275 In the fear, we couldn't tell where the rounds were coming from. Fergal! 641 00:36:43,275 --> 00:36:45,675 This is the panic of war. 642 00:36:45,675 --> 00:36:47,315 Come on. 643 00:36:47,315 --> 00:36:50,475 By late afternoon, a UN escort brought us and a huge number 644 00:36:50,475 --> 00:36:53,595 of refugees safely back to Tyre. Just get in! 645 00:36:53,595 --> 00:36:57,475 So do you think you'll be OK closing your eyes? Yeah. 646 00:36:57,475 --> 00:37:01,435 The way I often do bilateral stimulation is by tapping 647 00:37:01,435 --> 00:37:03,155 on your hands, like... 648 00:37:03,155 --> 00:37:04,835 I'm going to start tapping now. 649 00:37:04,835 --> 00:37:09,035 Cristina's method is by tapping me on my left and then on my right hand 650 00:37:09,035 --> 00:37:12,515 to stimulate different sides of my brain, in the same way 651 00:37:12,515 --> 00:37:15,035 that rapid eye movement does. 652 00:37:15,035 --> 00:37:18,995 So if you can please close your eyes and tell me as much as you can 653 00:37:18,995 --> 00:37:21,395 about what you see or maybe what you hear. 654 00:37:21,395 --> 00:37:24,035 So we're, we're coming along... 655 00:37:26,315 --> 00:37:28,755 ..a flat, level piece of road. Mm-hm. 656 00:37:28,755 --> 00:37:30,795 I hear the sound of explosion. 657 00:37:31,795 --> 00:37:33,435 Another one. Mm-hm. 658 00:37:34,515 --> 00:37:37,355 And we're suddenly next to a car that's been hit. 659 00:37:39,915 --> 00:37:42,755 There's people, two guys sitting in the car and there's blood on them. 660 00:37:42,755 --> 00:37:45,195 And we're saying to them, "Come on, let's go." 661 00:37:45,195 --> 00:37:48,835 Sometimes EMDR does very little, 662 00:37:48,835 --> 00:37:52,515 but sometimes it can be incredibly powerful. 663 00:37:52,515 --> 00:37:57,555 And when I am in that zone, it's like being there. 664 00:37:59,115 --> 00:38:01,435 It really is like being there. 665 00:38:01,435 --> 00:38:06,555 And it's quite, it's quite a sensation 666 00:38:06,555 --> 00:38:09,235 to just let it go free, go back into the memories 667 00:38:09,235 --> 00:38:11,115 and see what comes. 668 00:38:11,115 --> 00:38:13,835 I'm there in the, on the road and I'm thinking, "Jesus". 669 00:38:15,595 --> 00:38:17,595 Yes? "We'll be killed any second now. 670 00:38:17,595 --> 00:38:20,155 "They can shell us again." That's the moment, this is? 671 00:38:20,155 --> 00:38:24,755 So first of all, are you feeling any emotion now as you recall this? 672 00:38:24,755 --> 00:38:27,235 A bit of anxiety. OK. 673 00:38:27,235 --> 00:38:29,275 If you will can rate it out of ten for me. 674 00:38:29,275 --> 00:38:31,315 Ten is the maximum, zero is nothing. 675 00:38:31,315 --> 00:38:34,595 Seven. Like a seven? That's, that's, that's quite high. OK. 676 00:38:34,595 --> 00:38:38,955 So, remember, what the EMDR does is it tries to change that meaning, 677 00:38:38,955 --> 00:38:42,955 it's like we remove that thought associated with this memory 678 00:38:42,955 --> 00:38:45,715 and we want to install a different thought. 679 00:38:45,715 --> 00:38:48,315 What different thought, alternative thought 680 00:38:48,315 --> 00:38:50,995 would you like to have instead? I wasn't killed. 681 00:38:50,995 --> 00:38:53,035 I survived. OK. 682 00:38:53,035 --> 00:38:55,875 OK, so please go back to the memory, the moment when you thought 683 00:38:55,875 --> 00:38:57,715 that you were going to be killed. 684 00:39:01,035 --> 00:39:05,835 We got to the UN base with the Israelis still hitting vehicles, 685 00:39:05,835 --> 00:39:08,675 and then we got back to the hotel and I remember thinking... 686 00:39:08,675 --> 00:39:10,795 How does that feel? 687 00:39:10,795 --> 00:39:12,355 Get through the gate. The relief. OK. 688 00:39:12,355 --> 00:39:14,715 And I looked down, my hands were covered in blood. 689 00:39:14,715 --> 00:39:16,235 The guy's blood. 690 00:39:17,435 --> 00:39:21,075 OK, so let's continue from that moment, OK. 691 00:39:24,475 --> 00:39:27,595 Take a deep breath, please. We had two thoughts. 692 00:39:27,595 --> 00:39:30,435 The negative thought was, I'm going to die. 693 00:39:30,435 --> 00:39:33,675 The alternative thought is, I survived. 694 00:39:33,675 --> 00:39:36,915 Which one feels more true now? I survived. OK. 695 00:39:36,915 --> 00:39:40,555 But now we have a different side to it. This is sadness, OK. 696 00:39:40,555 --> 00:39:43,835 You want to stop? You want some water? It's OK. OK. 697 00:39:57,115 --> 00:39:58,755 Go through it. 698 00:39:59,875 --> 00:40:02,315 OK, take a deep breath, please. 699 00:40:02,315 --> 00:40:05,435 What do you think about yourself right now? 700 00:40:05,435 --> 00:40:08,635 Considering everything we did today. 701 00:40:08,635 --> 00:40:10,835 That I have a way to go. 702 00:40:10,835 --> 00:40:12,355 Still. 703 00:40:12,355 --> 00:40:16,275 The feelings are still powerful, even after all these years. 704 00:40:16,275 --> 00:40:17,555 All right. 705 00:40:17,555 --> 00:40:20,555 And do you feel positive in that respect? Yeah. 706 00:40:21,635 --> 00:40:25,675 Fuck, if I didn't, I'd be back on the front line or I'd be drinking. 707 00:40:25,675 --> 00:40:27,195 OK. Yeah? Of course. 708 00:40:27,195 --> 00:40:30,155 Quite a few times when I've come out of the EMDR sessions, 709 00:40:30,155 --> 00:40:33,395 I'm just wiped out and drained. 710 00:40:33,395 --> 00:40:37,435 It was like taking a bottle which has, you know, 711 00:40:37,435 --> 00:40:42,035 sand or something in it or some kind of sediment and shaking it, 712 00:40:42,035 --> 00:40:44,515 and it can take for days... 713 00:40:44,515 --> 00:40:46,315 ..for things to settle. 714 00:40:46,315 --> 00:40:50,475 And I do feel, I have felt much clearer... 715 00:40:51,675 --> 00:40:55,115 ..lighter when it does settle. 716 00:40:56,355 --> 00:41:00,395 I mean, what we do here can be incredibly emotionally draining. 717 00:41:00,395 --> 00:41:02,715 I know. But I know that, you know, 718 00:41:02,715 --> 00:41:05,475 it's demanding, demanding for you too. 719 00:41:05,475 --> 00:41:08,435 But I just want to say something to you, which I would never normally 720 00:41:08,435 --> 00:41:10,395 say in a therapy session. 721 00:41:11,795 --> 00:41:15,315 And that's "Thank you", because I think you helped to save my life. 722 00:41:16,635 --> 00:41:18,475 Thank you for saying it. 723 00:41:18,475 --> 00:41:20,115 WHISPERING: It's the truth. 724 00:41:21,515 --> 00:41:22,755 SOFTLY: Thank you. 725 00:41:22,755 --> 00:41:26,155 I think EMDR has helped me beyond a shadow of a doubt, 726 00:41:26,155 --> 00:41:27,635 but it's not a cure all. 727 00:41:27,635 --> 00:41:32,395 Each individual needs a specific treatment, so we can't say one thing 728 00:41:32,395 --> 00:41:36,195 is going to fix everything, but it's part of a kind of set of tools 729 00:41:36,195 --> 00:41:40,075 that can be hugely beneficial for people like me. 730 00:41:45,155 --> 00:41:49,755 One-to-one therapy with Cristina has helped me greatly, 731 00:41:49,755 --> 00:41:53,435 but I'm also interested in seeing what can happen in group therapy 732 00:41:53,435 --> 00:41:54,875 with PTSD sufferers. 733 00:41:56,275 --> 00:41:58,915 Here in Northern Ireland, they've experienced some 734 00:41:58,915 --> 00:42:02,155 of the highest rates of PTSD in the United Kingdom. 735 00:42:02,155 --> 00:42:05,915 This whole journey for me isn't about languishing in the past, 736 00:42:05,915 --> 00:42:09,475 you know, and looking at misery, it's about solutions now. 737 00:42:09,475 --> 00:42:12,635 And I'm going to a place here in Belfast 738 00:42:12,635 --> 00:42:15,755 where I think they've been doing something remarkable 739 00:42:15,755 --> 00:42:18,635 to help people who've been through trauma. 740 00:42:23,515 --> 00:42:25,915 How are you doing? How are you, Fergal? 741 00:42:25,915 --> 00:42:29,355 How nice to meet you. Welcome to Wave. Thank you very much. 742 00:42:29,355 --> 00:42:32,315 We want to go round the back to the garden... 743 00:42:32,315 --> 00:42:34,155 Great. ..and have a seat. 744 00:42:34,155 --> 00:42:38,235 I'm meeting trauma nurse Isabel Stewart of the Wave Therapy Centre, 745 00:42:38,235 --> 00:42:41,555 who's going to introduce me to some people with PTSD. 746 00:42:41,555 --> 00:42:44,395 They've been receiving treatment at Wave in Belfast 747 00:42:44,395 --> 00:42:46,035 for a number of years. 748 00:42:47,195 --> 00:42:50,835 My name's Liam. I was injured in 1999. 749 00:42:50,835 --> 00:42:54,475 My name's Cathy. In 1990, 750 00:42:54,475 --> 00:42:57,835 there was an IRA 1,000lb bomb 751 00:42:57,835 --> 00:42:59,835 which was put under the road. 752 00:42:59,835 --> 00:43:02,315 They detonated the bomb. 753 00:43:02,315 --> 00:43:05,155 Two cars were almost parallel with each other. 754 00:43:05,155 --> 00:43:07,875 One went one side of the road, one went in the other. 755 00:43:07,875 --> 00:43:10,795 Three policemen and a nun were killed by that bomb 756 00:43:10,795 --> 00:43:12,635 and I was a passenger with the nun. 757 00:43:14,155 --> 00:43:15,675 My name's Peter 758 00:43:15,675 --> 00:43:20,715 and September the 27th in 1979, 759 00:43:20,715 --> 00:43:24,835 I was married at the time, had three young children. 760 00:43:24,835 --> 00:43:28,075 It's my house there, just where he's passing. 761 00:43:28,075 --> 00:43:29,915 It's amazing. It looks very normal. 762 00:43:31,635 --> 00:43:34,595 I'm sitting playing with the baby and the doorbell rang. 763 00:43:34,595 --> 00:43:37,635 Anne, my wife got up, no big deal, 764 00:43:37,635 --> 00:43:39,115 to go and answer the door 765 00:43:39,115 --> 00:43:43,355 and the next thing I heard her squeal, "Gunmen, gunmen." 766 00:43:44,475 --> 00:43:48,435 The bullet hit me through the shoulder, down, hit the spine. 767 00:43:48,435 --> 00:43:52,875 Tried to get up again, the legs wouldn't work. 768 00:43:52,875 --> 00:43:56,315 I didn't know nothing about PTSD, nothing at the time. 769 00:43:56,315 --> 00:43:59,155 But then something would come on the news and it'd be another 770 00:43:59,155 --> 00:44:01,995 murder and I could see Anne's face. 771 00:44:01,995 --> 00:44:05,875 I never forget it, it was as if she was a statue, 772 00:44:05,875 --> 00:44:10,195 and then she would start to go and get a bottle of vodka. 773 00:44:10,195 --> 00:44:14,515 The psychiatrist, he told me after her diagnosis, that she had PTSD, 774 00:44:14,515 --> 00:44:17,915 and I remember going to doctors with Anne for treatment. 775 00:44:17,915 --> 00:44:21,075 But they kept saying to me, "Oh, no, we have to deal 776 00:44:21,075 --> 00:44:24,235 "with the alcohol problem before we look at THAT problem". 777 00:44:24,235 --> 00:44:27,995 But she never had an addiction or a drink problem before the shooting. 778 00:44:27,995 --> 00:44:32,675 And then...in 2006, 779 00:44:32,675 --> 00:44:35,155 she said to me, "I'm going to bed, I don't feel well". 780 00:44:35,155 --> 00:44:38,275 And when I went upstairs, Anne was dead in the bed. 781 00:44:39,795 --> 00:44:41,715 Just...dead. 782 00:44:43,835 --> 00:44:46,315 And, you know, 783 00:44:46,315 --> 00:44:49,515 so, I'm sort of trapped in that image. 784 00:44:50,955 --> 00:44:53,795 Can I, if, if you don't mind...? Go ahead. 785 00:44:53,795 --> 00:44:58,115 I mean, it's humbling for me to sit with you all, 786 00:44:58,115 --> 00:45:01,315 given what you've all gone through. 787 00:45:01,315 --> 00:45:04,595 It's the first time I've ever sat among a group of people 788 00:45:04,595 --> 00:45:08,435 like me, with PTSD. I've never, ever had that experience. 789 00:45:08,435 --> 00:45:11,755 It's made me determined, I think, 790 00:45:11,755 --> 00:45:16,155 to go back to London and try and find a group like this 791 00:45:16,155 --> 00:45:18,595 because I've been battling this, you know... 792 00:45:18,595 --> 00:45:22,715 Yeah, I go to my therapist and I talk to friends, 793 00:45:22,715 --> 00:45:26,915 but I haven't been sitting with people like you who get it. 794 00:45:26,915 --> 00:45:29,315 One of the regrets that I would have is I didn't discover 795 00:45:29,315 --> 00:45:34,235 the Wave organisation until about 2009. Anne died in 2006. 796 00:45:34,235 --> 00:45:38,155 I think talking to other women here would have been life-saving for her. 797 00:45:38,155 --> 00:45:41,955 For me, coming to Wave was the first time I really felt 798 00:45:41,955 --> 00:45:45,995 that I was with, like you're saying, like-minded people 799 00:45:45,995 --> 00:45:51,915 who could understand that what I was going through wasn't insanity 800 00:45:51,915 --> 00:45:53,955 for want of a better word. 801 00:45:53,955 --> 00:45:57,995 It's important to get that diagnosis because a diagnosis is going to free 802 00:45:57,995 --> 00:46:00,035 you up rather than tying you down. 803 00:46:00,035 --> 00:46:02,475 When you name something, you take the fear away. 804 00:46:02,475 --> 00:46:03,915 Absolutely, absolutely. 805 00:46:03,915 --> 00:46:08,395 I was at a point, in my own mind, barking mad. 806 00:46:08,395 --> 00:46:09,795 You know? 807 00:46:09,795 --> 00:46:12,435 And going to a doctor who said, what's happening 808 00:46:12,435 --> 00:46:15,675 is an entirely rational response 809 00:46:15,675 --> 00:46:18,115 to terrible experiences. 810 00:46:19,155 --> 00:46:20,955 That was like a liberation. 811 00:46:20,955 --> 00:46:26,235 And to see you all, with all the struggles that you're going through, 812 00:46:26,235 --> 00:46:29,475 you know, and you describe them so, so vividly and so well, 813 00:46:29,475 --> 00:46:33,755 but you're all, you're all keeping going and you're confronting it, 814 00:46:33,755 --> 00:46:35,795 you're doing something about it. 815 00:46:35,795 --> 00:46:37,395 That really is... 816 00:46:39,075 --> 00:46:42,115 It strikes me as the key to it. It's inspirational. 817 00:46:42,115 --> 00:46:44,315 Yeah, it is. It is inspirational. Yeah. 818 00:46:44,315 --> 00:46:46,555 Having to come to terms with a wheelchair is not easy, 819 00:46:46,555 --> 00:46:49,235 believe you me. As I have said before, I'm looking, 820 00:46:49,235 --> 00:46:52,235 used to be looking down on the baldy patches on men's heads. 821 00:46:52,235 --> 00:46:55,675 Now I'm looking at big fat arses, you know what I mean? 822 00:46:55,675 --> 00:46:58,715 LAUGHTER 823 00:47:07,075 --> 00:47:10,595 The experiences that I've had and that they've had, 824 00:47:10,595 --> 00:47:12,955 you know, they're obviously very different. 825 00:47:12,955 --> 00:47:15,795 But there's just that great sense of being with people 826 00:47:15,795 --> 00:47:17,515 who understand, 827 00:47:17,515 --> 00:47:21,995 because the symptoms that we go through are really similar. 828 00:47:21,995 --> 00:47:26,555 And I just felt liberated being among people who got it. 829 00:47:34,475 --> 00:47:38,555 What's really becoming clear to me on this journey 830 00:47:38,555 --> 00:47:42,395 is that you just have to keep pushing yourself, 831 00:47:42,395 --> 00:47:45,835 not believing there's going to be one thing that cures you, 832 00:47:45,835 --> 00:47:50,555 but maybe a series of essential encounters. 833 00:47:51,675 --> 00:47:55,315 I hope I'm on my way to one of those now. 834 00:47:56,835 --> 00:48:01,075 It's back into a place and events 835 00:48:01,075 --> 00:48:02,835 that I've always feared - 836 00:48:02,835 --> 00:48:04,715 Rwanda. 837 00:48:06,995 --> 00:48:12,275 I haven't watched this film since 1994 when we made it. 838 00:48:14,715 --> 00:48:16,635 And I feel I have to watch it 839 00:48:16,635 --> 00:48:18,755 if I'm going to confront... 840 00:48:19,955 --> 00:48:21,195 ..the past. 841 00:48:21,195 --> 00:48:25,435 I feel I can't keep avoiding the reality of it. 842 00:48:25,435 --> 00:48:28,915 PROGRAMME: It destroys what it can no longer control 843 00:48:28,915 --> 00:48:32,155 and everywhere, mutilation and death, 844 00:48:32,155 --> 00:48:37,395 that which first you smell and then see, again and again. 845 00:48:43,315 --> 00:48:47,595 In Rwanda, I was able to leave and, more than anywhere else, 846 00:48:47,595 --> 00:48:51,275 it left me with a feeling that I failed as a human being 847 00:48:51,275 --> 00:48:54,675 who saw great suffering and then got on a plane and went home, 848 00:48:54,675 --> 00:48:56,955 back to my comfortable life. 849 00:49:01,235 --> 00:49:04,875 Learning to live with PTSD means facing feelings about Rwanda 850 00:49:04,875 --> 00:49:06,875 that I've suppressed. 851 00:49:06,875 --> 00:49:10,115 I made a start meeting the documentary maker, 852 00:49:10,115 --> 00:49:12,355 Rizu Hamid, earlier. 853 00:49:12,355 --> 00:49:16,035 Now I'm going a step further to meet someone who came from hell 854 00:49:16,035 --> 00:49:18,115 to a very changed life. 855 00:49:22,835 --> 00:49:24,355 Beata was a kid. 856 00:49:24,355 --> 00:49:28,835 She was very young, so it was during the genocide. 857 00:49:28,835 --> 00:49:33,035 She and other orphans were being taken out through the roadblocks 858 00:49:33,035 --> 00:49:34,675 of the extremists. 859 00:49:36,395 --> 00:49:39,635 And these roadblocks had been, you know, butcher zones. 860 00:49:40,835 --> 00:49:45,155 Erm, it was that journey out, I'll never forget, 861 00:49:45,155 --> 00:49:47,715 it was, it was just terrifying. 862 00:49:47,715 --> 00:49:50,835 Every roadblock we stopped at they would open the door, 863 00:49:50,835 --> 00:49:54,035 or the militia would, the Interahamwe, as they called them, 864 00:49:54,035 --> 00:49:56,995 who'd climb up in and look at the kids. 865 00:49:56,995 --> 00:49:59,635 You could see the terror on these children's faces 866 00:49:59,635 --> 00:50:01,155 and Beata was one of them. 867 00:50:03,995 --> 00:50:07,035 I'm not going there as a reporter to interview someone. 868 00:50:08,715 --> 00:50:12,235 I'm going to someone who was there at that place at that time... 869 00:50:13,875 --> 00:50:16,235 ..and selfishly to see if she can help me. 870 00:50:18,315 --> 00:50:20,635 It seems a lot, you know, from a... 871 00:50:23,075 --> 00:50:26,235 ..a journalist to ask of a survivor of genocide. 872 00:50:28,155 --> 00:50:31,155 I think maybe it might be a way of confronting the past, 873 00:50:31,155 --> 00:50:33,035 which is damaging. 874 00:50:39,795 --> 00:50:44,195 I met Beata briefly ten years ago in London when she reached out 875 00:50:44,195 --> 00:50:47,035 looking for information about the convoy. 876 00:50:52,115 --> 00:50:53,755 Waiting. 877 00:50:55,715 --> 00:50:57,795 Nervous? Yeah. 878 00:51:06,755 --> 00:51:08,715 Welcome. Thank you. 879 00:51:08,715 --> 00:51:10,795 Good to see you. Good to see you. 880 00:51:10,795 --> 00:51:14,755 Yeah, long time. You've come. Yeah, got here. Come in. 881 00:51:14,755 --> 00:51:16,075 Definitely. 882 00:51:17,115 --> 00:51:18,155 Hey. 883 00:51:18,155 --> 00:51:21,675 So this is the truck where I was in with my mother. 884 00:51:21,675 --> 00:51:26,275 So this truck was, that was right in front of the vehicle I was in. 885 00:51:26,275 --> 00:51:28,875 Because every time it stopped at a roadblock, 886 00:51:28,875 --> 00:51:33,355 I could see the door would open, the militia would get up. 887 00:51:33,355 --> 00:51:35,355 They'd look in, 888 00:51:35,355 --> 00:51:38,035 and there you were. 889 00:51:38,035 --> 00:51:41,675 Wow. Because it was supposed to be a convoy with small children, 890 00:51:41,675 --> 00:51:43,955 we were not officially there. 891 00:51:43,955 --> 00:51:46,955 Yeah. Because I was 15, my mother was an adult. 892 00:51:46,955 --> 00:51:51,435 So we went in the back of the truck... 893 00:51:51,435 --> 00:51:53,635 Blankets over your heads. Blankets over our heads 894 00:51:53,635 --> 00:51:56,315 and we will ask the children to sit on us. 895 00:51:56,315 --> 00:51:59,635 They hid you? Yes. The younger children hid you. Yes. 896 00:51:59,635 --> 00:52:01,515 And were like four or five. 897 00:52:01,515 --> 00:52:04,435 I remember them, but I didn't know you then. 898 00:52:04,435 --> 00:52:06,995 I didn't even know you were hiding under this blanket. Hm. 899 00:52:06,995 --> 00:52:08,435 Wow. 900 00:52:09,515 --> 00:52:12,035 Beata, do you suffer... 901 00:52:13,435 --> 00:52:14,995 ..from trauma? 902 00:52:16,435 --> 00:52:19,075 I don't think so. 903 00:52:19,075 --> 00:52:22,835 You know, you lost people who were close to you in this genocide. 904 00:52:22,835 --> 00:52:25,475 You were afraid for your life. 905 00:52:25,475 --> 00:52:30,035 And yet, here you are, you're, you're remarkably together. 906 00:52:30,035 --> 00:52:31,915 I was, I was frightened. 907 00:52:31,915 --> 00:52:35,355 For sure, I was frightened, but I don't know. 908 00:52:35,355 --> 00:52:38,755 I don't have an answer to your answer, because I know people, 909 00:52:38,755 --> 00:52:41,715 survivors, who are traumatised, who live with trauma. 910 00:52:41,715 --> 00:52:43,635 I think my mother still lives with trauma. 911 00:52:43,635 --> 00:52:46,275 I was lucky when I arrived in France. 912 00:52:46,275 --> 00:52:48,795 The family, the French family that welcomed me, 913 00:52:48,795 --> 00:52:51,715 they immediately told me, you have to go and see a shrink. 914 00:52:51,715 --> 00:52:54,315 So since then, I've been seeing shrinks 915 00:52:54,315 --> 00:52:58,395 and I was lucky for that because I started taking care 916 00:52:58,395 --> 00:53:00,915 of my mental health. 917 00:53:00,915 --> 00:53:04,035 You know that word you hear people using, "closure," 918 00:53:04,035 --> 00:53:07,155 as if you can sort of deal with the, you know, 919 00:53:07,155 --> 00:53:10,075 we'll deal with that trauma and now we close the door, it's gone. 920 00:53:10,075 --> 00:53:12,475 It's closed, it's finished. It doesn't exist. 921 00:53:12,475 --> 00:53:15,195 I don't think you can, like, remove it. 922 00:53:15,195 --> 00:53:17,755 The sadness and the pain will always be there, 923 00:53:17,755 --> 00:53:20,715 but there has to be a space for it 924 00:53:20,715 --> 00:53:24,035 that doesn't take the whole space in your life. 925 00:53:24,035 --> 00:53:27,515 I suppose the lesson that I get from you 926 00:53:27,515 --> 00:53:30,115 is not to avoid it, 927 00:53:30,115 --> 00:53:32,315 is to confront it, to face it. 928 00:53:32,315 --> 00:53:35,875 You know, I like this idea of it's like a wild animal 929 00:53:35,875 --> 00:53:40,315 that you're going to... Tame it. Yeah. Yes. 930 00:53:40,315 --> 00:53:43,155 And then you're the one who is going to 931 00:53:43,155 --> 00:53:45,195 invite the memory. 932 00:53:45,195 --> 00:53:48,275 It's not invading you. You're inviting it. 933 00:53:48,275 --> 00:53:50,075 Wow, OK. 934 00:53:50,075 --> 00:53:53,235 But for that, you have to confront, I guess. 935 00:53:53,235 --> 00:53:55,395 And not everybody can do it. 936 00:54:02,875 --> 00:54:05,715 Beata is happily married with two sons 937 00:54:05,715 --> 00:54:09,555 and now helps people with mental health issues. 938 00:54:09,555 --> 00:54:14,435 You think of those who were killed and that you're still alive 939 00:54:14,435 --> 00:54:18,075 and then you have to make this life full of... 940 00:54:19,955 --> 00:54:25,355 ..life and of joy and do that for those who are not there, 941 00:54:25,355 --> 00:54:27,635 who are not there any more. 942 00:54:27,635 --> 00:54:31,995 And you think of all the goodness because within that nightmare 943 00:54:31,995 --> 00:54:37,235 and that chaos, there was still a little part of goodness 944 00:54:37,235 --> 00:54:40,115 with those people who'd helped us, who'd saved us. 945 00:54:40,115 --> 00:54:43,395 Just for them, we should be happy. 946 00:54:43,395 --> 00:54:45,555 So that they didn't do that, 947 00:54:45,555 --> 00:54:48,955 they didn't do that, that good for nothing. 948 00:54:50,715 --> 00:54:52,675 Point taken. 949 00:54:56,315 --> 00:54:59,315 I feel really, really tired, 950 00:54:59,315 --> 00:55:04,115 emotionally drained, but I'm so glad I did it. 951 00:55:04,115 --> 00:55:06,715 She's 18 years younger than me, 952 00:55:06,715 --> 00:55:08,675 but she feels a lot wiser 953 00:55:08,675 --> 00:55:11,995 and I think I can learn from 954 00:55:11,995 --> 00:55:15,155 what she said to me particularly about, you know, 955 00:55:15,155 --> 00:55:19,635 the need to make space, to not try and run away from the pain, 956 00:55:19,635 --> 00:55:23,395 to make space for other things besides it, which you know, 957 00:55:23,395 --> 00:55:27,755 can seem very self-evident and simple, but the thing about... 958 00:55:27,755 --> 00:55:30,395 I was hearing that from a genocide survivor, you know. 959 00:55:38,555 --> 00:55:43,195 Making this film is the hardest thing I've ever done 960 00:55:43,195 --> 00:55:47,675 in journalism, apart from Rwanda. 961 00:55:49,515 --> 00:55:51,355 Has it been worthwhile? 962 00:55:51,355 --> 00:55:56,315 If it's worthwhile, if it helps some people, 963 00:55:56,315 --> 00:56:00,875 if it shows them that you can have this, 964 00:56:00,875 --> 00:56:05,115 learn to live with it and have a bloody life. 965 00:56:06,755 --> 00:56:10,835 And know the most important thing of the lot, 966 00:56:10,835 --> 00:56:12,635 you're not alone. 967 00:56:14,075 --> 00:56:15,915 There's loads of us out there. 968 00:56:17,355 --> 00:56:18,755 And we can have each other's backs. 969 00:56:20,995 --> 00:56:23,235 Do you know that line from the Van Morrison song? 970 00:56:25,115 --> 00:56:28,435 "Ain't it all worthwhile when the healing has begun." 971 00:56:31,555 --> 00:56:34,995 Is that how you feel, Fergal? You think the healing has begun? 972 00:56:34,995 --> 00:56:38,595 It does feel like the healing has begun. 973 00:56:38,595 --> 00:56:41,115 Yeah, it does. 974 00:56:41,115 --> 00:56:43,115 Dalo. 975 00:56:43,115 --> 00:56:45,635 Come on, come on! 976 00:56:53,515 --> 00:56:57,755 CLIVE MYRIE: Tonight at ten, we're live in Ukraine, a country at war. 977 00:57:01,595 --> 00:57:05,515 A million people have now fled this country since the Russian 978 00:57:05,515 --> 00:57:09,155 invasion began, almost all of them are women and children. 979 00:57:09,155 --> 00:57:11,035 As Fergal Keane explains. 980 00:57:11,035 --> 00:57:12,995 TRAIN WHISTLE BLASTS 981 00:57:12,995 --> 00:57:16,035 They come from across the second biggest country in Europe 982 00:57:16,035 --> 00:57:17,315 after Russia. 983 00:57:17,315 --> 00:57:21,555 Saved by the railways that are this country's lifeline. 984 00:57:22,915 --> 00:57:24,955 It is war in my city. 985 00:57:24,955 --> 00:57:28,355 Children and I are scared of war, 986 00:57:28,355 --> 00:57:30,235 I don't like war. 987 00:57:33,075 --> 00:57:35,955 I flew home from Kyiv because I didn't want to be in a city 988 00:57:35,955 --> 00:57:38,035 that was under bombardment or shelling. 989 00:57:38,035 --> 00:57:40,235 I knew my nerves couldn't take that. 990 00:57:40,235 --> 00:57:42,795 And so I decided to come here, 991 00:57:42,795 --> 00:57:44,875 to Lviv in the far west 992 00:57:44,875 --> 00:57:47,515 of the country to report on the refugee crisis. 993 00:57:49,155 --> 00:57:52,395 I'm here because in the marrow of my bones, 994 00:57:52,395 --> 00:57:55,435 I'm a reporter and war is my subject, 995 00:57:55,435 --> 00:57:57,075 and I know it's damaged me. 996 00:57:58,915 --> 00:58:00,875 For years and years. 997 00:58:00,875 --> 00:58:04,075 And I rationalise it by saying, well, there's no bombing 998 00:58:04,075 --> 00:58:07,875 and shelling here, this is where people are coming for sanctuary. 999 00:58:07,875 --> 00:58:12,715 But I am listening to stories of trauma every day and I don't feel 1000 00:58:12,715 --> 00:58:15,755 I have a right to talk about trauma when I look at the magnitude 1001 00:58:15,755 --> 00:58:17,755 of what people are going through here. 1002 00:58:17,755 --> 00:58:21,875 One of the things that I've learned through therapy for PTSD 1003 00:58:21,875 --> 00:58:23,635 is detachment. 1004 00:58:23,635 --> 00:58:26,835 Doesn't mean I'm a robot, course I'm not, 1005 00:58:26,835 --> 00:58:29,915 but I have been able to detach. 1006 00:58:30,995 --> 00:58:33,635 But this is a struggle inside me. 1007 00:58:35,435 --> 00:58:36,995 This is going on inside me. 1008 00:58:36,995 --> 00:58:38,675 It's not finished... 1009 00:58:39,915 --> 00:58:41,475 ..the story of me and PTSD. 1010 00:58:43,155 --> 00:58:44,675 Someday it will be 1011 00:58:44,675 --> 00:58:47,235 and, I hope, in a positive way. 1012 00:58:49,075 --> 00:58:51,515 But in the meantime, here I am.