1 00:00:02,844 --> 00:00:06,084 This programme contains some strong language 2 00:00:06,084 --> 00:00:10,164 and graphic images which some viewers may find upsetting. 3 00:00:10,164 --> 00:00:12,364 Moscow maintains there are no plans to invade Ukraine, 4 00:00:12,364 --> 00:00:15,004 but as you've seen, large scale military drills 5 00:00:15,004 --> 00:00:16,844 are still taking place. 6 00:00:16,844 --> 00:00:20,524 Our special correspondent Fergal Keane, travelled from Senkivka 7 00:00:20,524 --> 00:00:23,604 in Ukraine to the capital Kyiv, meeting people 8 00:00:23,604 --> 00:00:26,844 who could be in the path of any Russian advance. 9 00:00:26,844 --> 00:00:29,844 Here on the border, with the Russians just over there, 10 00:00:29,844 --> 00:00:33,084 there's no sense that things have been conclusively resolved, 11 00:00:33,084 --> 00:00:34,724 not at all. 12 00:00:34,724 --> 00:00:38,804 It's just a pause in what remains a very tense situation. 13 00:00:40,324 --> 00:00:44,884 I'm in Kyiv and I've just made one of the hardest decisions 14 00:00:44,884 --> 00:00:47,004 of my career. 15 00:00:49,324 --> 00:00:54,644 It's about to turn into a big war here and inside of me... 16 00:00:56,884 --> 00:00:59,524 ..the addictive part, but also the part that wants to witness 17 00:00:59,524 --> 00:01:02,124 history, really wants to stay. 18 00:01:03,564 --> 00:01:04,804 But I've made a promise... 19 00:01:06,204 --> 00:01:07,724 ..to myself, 20 00:01:07,724 --> 00:01:10,844 the people I love - no more wars. 21 00:01:10,844 --> 00:01:14,124 Enough, go home, so I'm going home in the morning. 22 00:01:21,164 --> 00:01:24,084 How much have you read about PTSD? 23 00:01:24,084 --> 00:01:25,604 How much have you studied it? 24 00:01:25,604 --> 00:01:29,044 I'm the guy who goes to a therapy session 25 00:01:29,044 --> 00:01:30,804 and at the end of it 26 00:01:30,804 --> 00:01:33,604 was given literature to read 27 00:01:33,604 --> 00:01:34,764 and didn't read it. 28 00:01:36,444 --> 00:01:39,724 Because I wanted to be away from PTSD. 29 00:01:41,244 --> 00:01:45,764 You know, I wanted to keep it at arm's length, and why? 30 00:01:45,764 --> 00:01:48,444 Because I wanted to keep doing what I was doing. 31 00:01:48,444 --> 00:01:50,484 I wanted to keep going to the wars. 32 00:01:53,284 --> 00:01:56,484 My name is Fergal Keane, I'm a reporter. 33 00:01:56,484 --> 00:01:59,844 For over 30 years, I've covered conflict for the BBC 34 00:01:59,844 --> 00:02:01,244 from across the world. 35 00:02:02,484 --> 00:02:04,724 Murder, mutilation, rape. 36 00:02:04,724 --> 00:02:08,604 It all happened here in Freetown as the rebel army swept into the city. 37 00:02:08,604 --> 00:02:12,364 Saddam Hussein and his regime have finally been destroyed. 38 00:02:12,364 --> 00:02:16,484 In that time, I've seen the best of humanity and the worst. 39 00:02:16,484 --> 00:02:19,164 Too often, I'm afraid, the worst. 40 00:02:19,164 --> 00:02:21,764 The second suicide bomber detonated his explosives 41 00:02:21,764 --> 00:02:24,884 in the middle of a crowd. People were blasted and burned. 42 00:02:24,884 --> 00:02:27,924 Even those familiar with such horror were moved. 43 00:02:27,924 --> 00:02:31,404 You can hear the shelling here behind me. 44 00:02:31,404 --> 00:02:34,764 There is no ceasefire, it's an illusion. 45 00:02:34,764 --> 00:02:37,204 It's taken a heavy toll. 46 00:02:37,204 --> 00:02:40,724 I have a condition called post-traumatic stress disorder. 47 00:02:40,724 --> 00:02:44,644 There's a set of symptoms, whether it's twitching 48 00:02:44,644 --> 00:02:47,324 and having nightmares or flashbacks. 49 00:02:47,324 --> 00:02:52,644 It's a place of extreme fear is how I would ultimately define it. 50 00:02:52,644 --> 00:02:55,724 And what's surprising is, for a journalist and someone 51 00:02:55,724 --> 00:02:59,764 who spent my life investigating things, is how little I know, 52 00:02:59,764 --> 00:03:03,924 actually, beyond my own experience. 53 00:03:03,924 --> 00:03:06,884 And maybe this process of investigation 54 00:03:06,884 --> 00:03:11,044 and talking to other people who suffer from post-traumatic stress, 55 00:03:11,044 --> 00:03:13,124 maybe that can let some light in. 56 00:03:28,924 --> 00:03:30,844 BIRDSONG 57 00:03:32,724 --> 00:03:36,324 Part of me is scared stiff making this film 58 00:03:36,324 --> 00:03:39,564 because I know it's a, it's a journey into myself. 59 00:03:41,004 --> 00:03:43,364 But I'm sick of being scared. 60 00:03:43,364 --> 00:03:47,684 And the defining characteristic of, for me, living with PTSD 61 00:03:47,684 --> 00:03:49,484 has been fear. 62 00:03:49,484 --> 00:03:52,324 You know, fear of nightmares 63 00:03:52,324 --> 00:03:53,804 where I wake up 64 00:03:53,804 --> 00:03:57,244 and I'm under a pile of bodies. 65 00:03:57,244 --> 00:03:58,644 Let's go. 66 00:03:58,644 --> 00:04:04,364 Or in my dreams, I see animals devouring human corpses. 67 00:04:04,364 --> 00:04:06,804 Come on, Pop, let's go. 68 00:04:06,804 --> 00:04:10,604 In daily life, it is as mundane as 69 00:04:10,604 --> 00:04:11,964 sitting in a room 70 00:04:11,964 --> 00:04:16,164 where somebody is trying to do the dishes and flinching, 71 00:04:16,164 --> 00:04:19,804 and saying, "Can't you hear how loud that is?" 72 00:04:19,804 --> 00:04:23,524 And them looking at you, "No..." 73 00:04:25,084 --> 00:04:29,484 Because nobody hears it as loud as I do in my head. 74 00:04:31,764 --> 00:04:34,924 And there have been people around me, who love me and care for me 75 00:04:34,924 --> 00:04:37,284 and want to reach me, 76 00:04:37,284 --> 00:04:40,164 but when you're in it, you shut them out, you isolate. 77 00:04:40,164 --> 00:04:41,644 I do. 78 00:04:46,004 --> 00:04:48,444 I always know when it's getting bad, 79 00:04:48,444 --> 00:04:50,884 because that acute sense of threat 80 00:04:50,884 --> 00:04:54,324 is louder and I feel it spiralling, you know? 81 00:04:54,324 --> 00:04:58,724 The BBC's Africa Editor and veteran war correspondent Fergal Keane 82 00:04:58,724 --> 00:05:01,444 has announced he'll be stepping down from his position, 83 00:05:01,444 --> 00:05:04,244 citing the effects of post-traumatic stress disorder. 84 00:05:04,244 --> 00:05:08,644 Fergal has reported from the front lines for the BBC since the 1980s, 85 00:05:08,644 --> 00:05:11,804 gaining widespread recognition for his coverage of the Rwandan 86 00:05:11,804 --> 00:05:14,084 genocide in 1994. 87 00:05:14,084 --> 00:05:17,964 In a statement, a BBC spokesperson said he had been dealing with 88 00:05:17,964 --> 00:05:20,644 the condition privately for several years 89 00:05:20,644 --> 00:05:23,444 and is receiving professional medical advice. 90 00:05:25,404 --> 00:05:28,044 I went to Rwanda as somebody thinking 91 00:05:28,044 --> 00:05:30,884 that I knew what war looked like. 92 00:05:30,884 --> 00:05:35,964 And I very quickly realised that genocide, 93 00:05:35,964 --> 00:05:39,004 the attempt to wipe out a whole group of people, 94 00:05:39,004 --> 00:05:40,644 was something very different. 95 00:05:42,324 --> 00:05:46,324 I found myself having nightmares, flashbacks, 96 00:05:46,324 --> 00:05:50,364 and then trying to deal with that, 97 00:05:50,364 --> 00:05:53,324 not by going to therapy, but with booze. 98 00:05:53,324 --> 00:05:55,964 I kept going to the war zones, 99 00:05:55,964 --> 00:05:57,644 trying to cure it with drinking. 100 00:05:59,244 --> 00:06:02,364 Part of me was driven by idealism. 101 00:06:02,364 --> 00:06:06,964 I believe that journalism could, could help to change things. 102 00:06:06,964 --> 00:06:09,764 But there was another part which is ego. 103 00:06:09,764 --> 00:06:13,844 I wanted to be seen, I wanted to win awards 104 00:06:13,844 --> 00:06:19,244 and I was also gradually becoming addicted 105 00:06:19,244 --> 00:06:22,564 to the adrenaline of war coverage. 106 00:06:22,564 --> 00:06:26,444 The first place that I immersed myself in that combination 107 00:06:26,444 --> 00:06:28,564 was in Northern Ireland. 108 00:06:28,564 --> 00:06:30,804 Robert Seymour was standing in this shop 109 00:06:30,804 --> 00:06:32,764 when two men chased him outside. 110 00:06:32,764 --> 00:06:35,444 There, he was shot a number of times in the head and chest. 111 00:06:35,444 --> 00:06:38,124 Robert Seymour had strong connections with the outlawed 112 00:06:38,124 --> 00:06:40,124 Ulster Volunteer Force. 113 00:06:40,124 --> 00:06:42,364 In 1983, he was convicted of sectarian murder 114 00:06:42,364 --> 00:06:44,004 in the Bennett supergrass case. 115 00:06:45,404 --> 00:06:49,884 And so that was the beginning, for me, of long immersion 116 00:06:49,884 --> 00:06:51,924 in the suffering of others. 117 00:06:54,004 --> 00:06:56,004 MALE PRESENTER: I suppose Fergal Keane, 118 00:06:56,004 --> 00:06:58,004 the acclaimed BBC war correspondent, 119 00:06:58,004 --> 00:07:01,724 was almost guaranteed to be born with the gift of the gab. 120 00:07:01,724 --> 00:07:04,524 He's the son of a renowned actor, Eamonn Keane, 121 00:07:04,524 --> 00:07:07,844 and with the playwright John B Keane for an uncle, 122 00:07:07,844 --> 00:07:10,644 the world of words and the art of communication 123 00:07:10,644 --> 00:07:14,324 has been woven deep into his DNA. 124 00:07:14,324 --> 00:07:18,484 His sometimes emotive and often harrowing reports 125 00:07:18,484 --> 00:07:22,524 from world conflict zones such as Rwanda, South Africa and Kosovo 126 00:07:22,524 --> 00:07:24,644 have gained him many awards, 127 00:07:24,644 --> 00:07:28,004 including an OBE for services to journalism. 128 00:07:28,004 --> 00:07:31,284 He's also battled successfully against alcoholism 129 00:07:31,284 --> 00:07:36,204 and has just recently vowed never to return again to the war zones. 130 00:07:38,484 --> 00:07:41,724 This is Milltown Cemetery 131 00:07:41,724 --> 00:07:45,844 and where a lot of Nationalist and Republican people 132 00:07:45,844 --> 00:07:49,244 who were killed during the Troubles are buried. 133 00:07:49,244 --> 00:07:51,564 It's also a place... 134 00:07:52,764 --> 00:07:57,764 ..that I associate with the most chaotic and, for me, 135 00:07:57,764 --> 00:08:02,844 tense and dangerous week of my experience of the Troubles. 136 00:08:02,844 --> 00:08:05,164 ARCHIVE: The funeral procession entered Milltown Cemetery, 137 00:08:05,164 --> 00:08:07,284 many thousands strong. 138 00:08:07,284 --> 00:08:10,284 Unknown to them, a man had infiltrated them. 139 00:08:10,284 --> 00:08:12,404 He threw his first grenade. 140 00:08:12,404 --> 00:08:14,404 LOUD EXPLOSION 141 00:08:14,404 --> 00:08:17,444 Many of the crowd gave chase across the cemetery in hot pursuit 142 00:08:17,444 --> 00:08:20,924 of a man who paused, turned, and threw more grenades. 143 00:08:20,924 --> 00:08:26,204 What happened here and all of the events that followed it 144 00:08:26,204 --> 00:08:29,444 just brought home to me, living in Belfast, 145 00:08:29,444 --> 00:08:32,084 how close you could get to the edge. 146 00:08:33,804 --> 00:08:36,764 But also it was one of those moments, you know, when trauma 147 00:08:36,764 --> 00:08:40,604 broke the surface. But the truth is, it was there all the time 148 00:08:40,604 --> 00:08:45,284 and you couldn't live here and not feel it, not absorb it. 149 00:08:45,284 --> 00:08:48,524 But it was only much later that I realised, you know, 150 00:08:48,524 --> 00:08:50,364 how much of it I was taking in. 151 00:08:51,484 --> 00:08:54,524 But nothing anybody could have said to me at that time 152 00:08:54,524 --> 00:08:55,844 would have stopped me. 153 00:08:55,844 --> 00:09:00,124 Had they come along and said, you know, in 30 years' time, mate, 154 00:09:00,124 --> 00:09:03,844 you're going to be going in to hospital with a mental breakdown 155 00:09:03,844 --> 00:09:06,764 from trauma, I wouldn't have believed them. 156 00:09:06,764 --> 00:09:10,084 But you have to put yourself into my head in my 20s, 157 00:09:10,084 --> 00:09:15,084 and that was somebody who suddenly felt this sense of purpose... 158 00:09:16,564 --> 00:09:19,964 ..about what he was doing, you know, because I think we all want 159 00:09:19,964 --> 00:09:24,924 to be told that we're worthwhile, that what we do is worthwhile. 160 00:09:24,924 --> 00:09:26,964 But I wanted it more than most. 161 00:09:26,964 --> 00:09:28,964 And that's a consequence, of course... 162 00:09:30,764 --> 00:09:34,044 ..of not feeling that as a child. 163 00:09:35,484 --> 00:09:38,724 I had the trauma of loving an alcoholic dad. 164 00:09:40,004 --> 00:09:42,684 As long as I can remember, I've been afraid. 165 00:09:44,404 --> 00:09:47,404 I was very afraid as a small child. 166 00:09:47,404 --> 00:09:50,324 I lived in a house with an alcoholic parent. 167 00:09:51,924 --> 00:09:56,764 And that meant, for me, an atmosphere of threat and of fear, 168 00:09:56,764 --> 00:10:01,204 constantly wondering what was coming next? 169 00:10:02,524 --> 00:10:05,724 Never being able to be certain that you were secure. 170 00:10:07,284 --> 00:10:11,324 And I look back and think, childhood prepared me 171 00:10:11,324 --> 00:10:13,684 for being in situations of risk. 172 00:10:14,884 --> 00:10:18,324 For being in situations where I needed to read other people's 173 00:10:18,324 --> 00:10:22,164 body language, and that's an amazing preparation if your later life 174 00:10:22,164 --> 00:10:27,484 is going to be working as a reporter in conflict zones. 175 00:10:27,484 --> 00:10:30,244 ARCHIVE: In the immediate aftermath, panic and fear. 176 00:10:31,364 --> 00:10:35,084 It was here near a busy rail station that the worst devastation occurred. 177 00:10:35,084 --> 00:10:38,084 The bombing left more than 50 people injured, 178 00:10:38,084 --> 00:10:40,084 nearly all of them were civilians. 179 00:10:40,084 --> 00:10:43,524 Most of the people who died here today, whose bodies still lie 180 00:10:43,524 --> 00:10:45,764 on the ground behind me, were ordinary people. 181 00:10:45,764 --> 00:10:48,364 They had no part in Sri Lanka's war. 182 00:10:48,364 --> 00:10:52,444 PRESENT DAY: The thing was that we were all aware of trauma, 183 00:10:52,444 --> 00:10:54,484 those of us who covered conflict. 184 00:10:56,124 --> 00:11:00,364 But it took a surprisingly long time for me to be actually diagnosed. 185 00:11:00,364 --> 00:11:02,364 I came to a point where I crashed. 186 00:11:03,604 --> 00:11:08,324 I was in a place of absolute despair 187 00:11:08,324 --> 00:11:10,884 and fear. 188 00:11:10,884 --> 00:11:13,764 You can't inflict that on the people around you. 189 00:11:13,764 --> 00:11:15,604 You need professional help. 190 00:11:17,004 --> 00:11:20,284 And I just, I was too tired to feel ashamed 191 00:11:20,284 --> 00:11:22,924 about being admitted to a psychiatric hospital. 192 00:11:25,204 --> 00:11:31,044 I'm at home at the moment, and I am waiting to meet Dr Niall Campbell, 193 00:11:31,044 --> 00:11:35,644 who is, like, one of the, the single most important people in my life 194 00:11:35,644 --> 00:11:38,564 because it was he who first diagnosed me 195 00:11:38,564 --> 00:11:41,804 with PTSD 13 years ago. 196 00:11:41,804 --> 00:11:45,244 This is actually my last couple of weeks in this place, 197 00:11:45,244 --> 00:11:47,124 so I'm moving in... 198 00:11:48,444 --> 00:11:51,764 Moving to a new place, but not far from here. In Barnes. 199 00:11:51,764 --> 00:11:53,084 Yeah, very close by. 200 00:11:53,084 --> 00:11:57,444 When I rocked up at The Priory 201 00:11:57,444 --> 00:12:00,484 to see you in March 2008, 202 00:12:00,484 --> 00:12:05,964 how were you able to make that diagnosis, that it was PTSD? 203 00:12:05,964 --> 00:12:10,844 Well, when you see genuine PTSD 204 00:12:10,844 --> 00:12:13,284 it's very, very characteristic. 205 00:12:13,284 --> 00:12:16,724 There's three areas of symptoms in PTSD. 206 00:12:16,724 --> 00:12:20,204 First of all, as in the title, you need the trauma, 207 00:12:20,204 --> 00:12:22,444 you need to have had a trauma. 208 00:12:22,444 --> 00:12:26,524 And then there's the intrusive memories... Tick. 209 00:12:26,524 --> 00:12:29,324 ..where you remember the bad thing that happened. 210 00:12:29,324 --> 00:12:32,004 You have dreams relating to the memories. Also. 211 00:12:32,004 --> 00:12:36,044 You have flashbacks, you think you are back in the situation. 212 00:12:36,044 --> 00:12:39,724 And then there's the distresser reminders, if it's on the news, 213 00:12:39,724 --> 00:12:43,564 or somebody mentions the thing, it brings it all back again. 214 00:12:43,564 --> 00:12:46,604 The avoidance symptoms, where you avoid talking about it, you avoid 215 00:12:46,604 --> 00:12:49,084 thinking about it, and then there's the arousal symptoms - 216 00:12:49,084 --> 00:12:52,004 people feel jittery, edgy, can't sleep. 217 00:12:52,004 --> 00:12:56,724 As a condition, it was only invented in 1978. 218 00:12:56,724 --> 00:13:01,124 It was first called that. It had many other names before. Shellshock. 219 00:13:01,124 --> 00:13:02,644 All that sort of thing. 220 00:13:02,644 --> 00:13:06,444 Yeah, battle exhaustion, etc. 221 00:13:06,444 --> 00:13:09,764 Is this a wise thing for me to be doing? Yes, it is. 222 00:13:09,764 --> 00:13:13,004 You always wanted to do a documentary about this sometime. 223 00:13:13,004 --> 00:13:16,204 The danger, of course, that it opens up stuff and makes you think 224 00:13:16,204 --> 00:13:19,724 about things, and you get reminded, but you've got help. 225 00:13:19,724 --> 00:13:22,444 You know what to do if you've got a problem. 226 00:13:22,444 --> 00:13:25,004 DRAMATIC MUSIC 227 00:13:28,364 --> 00:13:30,964 The trauma of war is as old as war itself, 228 00:13:30,964 --> 00:13:34,164 but it's only in the modern age that we've begun to treat 229 00:13:34,164 --> 00:13:36,764 the mental scars of battle as an illness. 230 00:13:38,204 --> 00:13:40,564 One of the most harrowing documentaries I've watched 231 00:13:40,564 --> 00:13:44,484 is by the Hollywood director John Huston, who filmed traumatised 232 00:13:44,484 --> 00:13:47,964 World War II veterans trying to adjust to civilian life. 233 00:13:49,964 --> 00:13:53,204 COMMENTARY: This hospital is one of the many for the care and treatment 234 00:13:53,204 --> 00:13:55,444 of the psychoneurotic soldier. 235 00:13:55,444 --> 00:13:58,724 We're going back now, going back to Okinawa. 236 00:13:58,724 --> 00:14:00,324 You can remember. 237 00:14:00,324 --> 00:14:02,364 Tell me what you see. 238 00:14:02,364 --> 00:14:04,364 Getting shells thrown at us. 239 00:14:04,364 --> 00:14:06,644 You're getting shells thrown at you? 240 00:14:06,644 --> 00:14:09,484 Yes, go on. You remember it now? 241 00:14:09,484 --> 00:14:12,804 Tell me. It's all right now, but you can tell me. 242 00:14:15,564 --> 00:14:19,484 Watch this guy, this poor guy, and you can see in him 243 00:14:19,484 --> 00:14:22,084 what battle has done to him, and it's... 244 00:14:24,324 --> 00:14:28,644 It's inside him, he's there, he's back in that place. 245 00:14:28,644 --> 00:14:33,444 And, you know, you don't have to be, to be back there 246 00:14:33,444 --> 00:14:36,084 in the sense of just seeing the same images, 247 00:14:36,084 --> 00:14:38,604 but physically, you're back there. 248 00:14:38,604 --> 00:14:42,204 For me, you know, a flashback or intrusive memory, 249 00:14:42,204 --> 00:14:45,524 it's something that triggers cold sweat. 250 00:14:46,644 --> 00:14:51,124 I mean, cold sweat and, like, shivering inside. 251 00:14:53,164 --> 00:14:55,844 I'm not a pleasant person when I'm in it. 252 00:14:55,844 --> 00:15:00,404 I am suspicious to the point of paranoia. 253 00:15:00,404 --> 00:15:02,684 I'm angry. 254 00:15:02,684 --> 00:15:04,164 I snap. 255 00:15:04,164 --> 00:15:06,564 But when I'm in that zone, 256 00:15:06,564 --> 00:15:08,444 people don't know what to expect. 257 00:15:11,124 --> 00:15:13,444 I am aware of people tiptoeing around me. 258 00:15:15,084 --> 00:15:16,524 I'm aware of them... 259 00:15:17,924 --> 00:15:20,764 ..being careful about what they say 260 00:15:20,764 --> 00:15:22,844 so as not to provoke me. 261 00:15:24,444 --> 00:15:26,044 It's shite. 262 00:15:26,044 --> 00:15:28,284 It really is. 263 00:15:28,284 --> 00:15:31,524 In many ways, it's the worst thing about this. 264 00:15:36,004 --> 00:15:39,324 In 1990, I got the job I'd always wanted - 265 00:15:39,324 --> 00:15:42,204 Southern Africa correspondent of the BBC. 266 00:15:45,244 --> 00:15:48,844 And I arrived into a situation which was like a roller-coaster. 267 00:15:48,844 --> 00:15:53,684 You had terrible violence taking place in the townships. 268 00:15:53,684 --> 00:15:55,764 Horrific scenes. 269 00:15:55,764 --> 00:15:58,564 ARCHIVE: For the second successive day, the people of these townships 270 00:15:58,564 --> 00:16:02,204 are enduring what amounts to a state of siege. 271 00:16:02,204 --> 00:16:06,684 At the same time, you had this sense that history was bringing Mandela 272 00:16:06,684 --> 00:16:11,764 and black South Africa to the place where they always should have been, 273 00:16:11,764 --> 00:16:14,724 the rulers of the country, black majority rulers. 274 00:16:14,724 --> 00:16:16,804 Fergal, it must be a fantastic moment. 275 00:16:16,804 --> 00:16:18,724 It is indeed, the party is in full swing 276 00:16:18,724 --> 00:16:20,884 here at the Union Buildings in Pretoria. 277 00:16:20,884 --> 00:16:23,724 Yes, how are you, ladies and gentlemen? 278 00:16:23,724 --> 00:16:25,564 I don't see the ladies. 279 00:16:25,564 --> 00:16:29,124 So to have a ringside seat on that was, on one level, 280 00:16:29,124 --> 00:16:31,884 quite scary because of the violence, 281 00:16:31,884 --> 00:16:34,524 but on another, it really lifted your spirits. 282 00:16:34,524 --> 00:16:37,364 Then everything changed. 283 00:16:37,364 --> 00:16:41,604 I went to Rwanda in the late spring of 1994 284 00:16:41,604 --> 00:16:45,124 after getting a call from the BBC in London, asking me to present 285 00:16:45,124 --> 00:16:48,204 a documentary on massacres that were taking place 286 00:16:48,204 --> 00:16:51,364 in this tiny country 2,000 miles to the north. 287 00:16:54,604 --> 00:16:57,564 I suppose I was flattered to be asked to go and do this 288 00:16:57,564 --> 00:17:00,324 for Panorama. I was a radio reporter at the time. 289 00:17:00,324 --> 00:17:03,964 Maybe my ego? Well, this is a great opportunity, go do it. 290 00:17:03,964 --> 00:17:06,084 I'm just leaving Tanzania. 291 00:17:06,084 --> 00:17:08,724 Ahead of me, the border with Rwanda, 292 00:17:08,724 --> 00:17:11,284 the country where some of the worst crimes against humanity 293 00:17:11,284 --> 00:17:13,644 of this century have been committed. 294 00:17:13,644 --> 00:17:17,164 There's a sign over there which says, "Welcome to Rwanda". 295 00:17:17,164 --> 00:17:20,524 But before you even set foot in the country, below me in the waters 296 00:17:20,524 --> 00:17:23,044 of the Kagera River is stark evidence 297 00:17:23,044 --> 00:17:25,124 of what's been happening here. 298 00:17:25,124 --> 00:17:29,164 Evidence of Rwanda's journey into darkness. 299 00:17:31,964 --> 00:17:35,244 What I witnessed there changed my life. 300 00:17:35,244 --> 00:17:38,364 I encountered the worst of human cruelty 301 00:17:38,364 --> 00:17:40,524 and the limits of my own courage. 302 00:17:40,524 --> 00:17:45,004 Rwanda returns in nightmares, anxiety, a sense of failure 303 00:17:45,004 --> 00:17:49,684 as a human being that helps to drive my PTSD. 304 00:17:49,684 --> 00:17:51,724 For several years, I've tried to shut it out, 305 00:17:51,724 --> 00:17:54,364 but I wonder if that stops healing? 306 00:17:54,364 --> 00:17:57,124 PANORAMA THEME PLAYS 307 00:17:57,124 --> 00:17:59,204 During the process of making this film, 308 00:17:59,204 --> 00:18:03,524 I have had this feeling in my head, "This is not doing you good. 309 00:18:03,524 --> 00:18:05,724 "This isn't helping you." 310 00:18:05,724 --> 00:18:10,404 Because it's meant revisiting all kinds of anxieties 311 00:18:10,404 --> 00:18:12,004 and nightmares. 312 00:18:13,764 --> 00:18:16,284 And I feel that strongly today. 313 00:18:16,284 --> 00:18:20,324 Yes, I've been advised to confront Rwanda, 314 00:18:20,324 --> 00:18:21,844 but I'm... 315 00:18:22,844 --> 00:18:25,684 ..not looking forward to doing it. I really am not. 316 00:18:25,684 --> 00:18:30,364 And today, I'm going to meet somebody I was in Rwanda with, 317 00:18:30,364 --> 00:18:32,364 a really, really brave woman. 318 00:18:32,364 --> 00:18:36,804 She and I have not spoken about what it was like to be there 319 00:18:36,804 --> 00:18:41,444 25 and more years ago now. 320 00:18:41,444 --> 00:18:43,284 And so I'm really apprehensive. 321 00:18:44,844 --> 00:18:47,044 Good to see you. 322 00:18:49,404 --> 00:18:51,404 Good to see you. 323 00:18:51,404 --> 00:18:54,484 Are you dreading this as much as I am? I am. OK, good. 324 00:18:54,484 --> 00:18:55,884 We can do that together. 325 00:18:55,884 --> 00:18:57,964 My heart's been beating all the way coming here. 326 00:18:57,964 --> 00:18:59,604 It's all right. Yeah. 327 00:18:59,604 --> 00:19:01,604 How are you? You're looking well. 328 00:19:01,604 --> 00:19:04,444 I'm not bad. I'm not bad. And you too. 329 00:19:04,444 --> 00:19:06,844 Yeah. Come on. Have a seat. 330 00:19:06,844 --> 00:19:08,964 Cup of tea? Oh, yeah. 331 00:19:08,964 --> 00:19:11,524 Let's get a cup of tea. Coffee? All right. 332 00:19:11,524 --> 00:19:14,404 What's your first memory of the place? I don't know. 333 00:19:14,404 --> 00:19:18,804 You could smell death, and that's all you can say. You... 334 00:19:20,284 --> 00:19:23,884 You know, I'd covered South Africa, I'd covered the violence, 335 00:19:23,884 --> 00:19:28,164 I'd seen, kind of, necklacing and you know, people dying 336 00:19:28,164 --> 00:19:30,284 with burning tyres around them. 337 00:19:30,284 --> 00:19:32,244 But Rwanda was on another scale. 338 00:19:32,244 --> 00:19:34,484 Skulls in toilets. 339 00:19:34,484 --> 00:19:38,164 you know, young bodies, 340 00:19:38,164 --> 00:19:43,004 kids with scars, the kind of size of your hand, 341 00:19:43,004 --> 00:19:46,924 they're just gaping wounds, and the kind of brutality 342 00:19:46,924 --> 00:19:51,764 and the kind of visual remnants of it everywhere. 343 00:19:55,804 --> 00:19:59,244 I had seen war before, had seen the face of cruelty, 344 00:19:59,244 --> 00:20:02,324 but Nyarubuye belonged in a nightmare zone 345 00:20:02,324 --> 00:20:06,364 where my capacity to understand, to rationalise, was overwhelmed. 346 00:20:07,404 --> 00:20:10,284 The victims, all of them Tutsis, had gone to the church 347 00:20:10,284 --> 00:20:12,084 in search of sanctuary. 348 00:20:12,084 --> 00:20:15,684 Instead, the house of God became a killing ground. 349 00:20:18,964 --> 00:20:21,164 I've never watched the film again. 350 00:20:21,164 --> 00:20:24,044 I just didn't want to kind of go back there. 351 00:20:24,044 --> 00:20:27,284 I understand that so well. 352 00:20:27,284 --> 00:20:29,564 Those kids, I mean, for me, it was those kids 353 00:20:29,564 --> 00:20:32,604 and those that were left behind and, you know, 354 00:20:32,604 --> 00:20:36,844 the wounded that you saw along the road, and people with 355 00:20:36,844 --> 00:20:40,844 arms chopped off or the kind of walking dead. 356 00:20:40,844 --> 00:20:42,724 Yeah. 357 00:20:42,724 --> 00:20:46,204 You know, and it kind of becomes a piece of history. 358 00:20:46,204 --> 00:20:49,644 But when you've kind of lived that piece of history, 359 00:20:49,644 --> 00:20:51,684 I don't think it ever leaves you. 360 00:20:51,684 --> 00:20:54,324 And it's one day at a time. 361 00:20:54,324 --> 00:20:58,844 And that I learned when I kind of, you know, in the space of 362 00:20:58,844 --> 00:21:01,404 a very short time, I lost my husband, 363 00:21:01,404 --> 00:21:03,444 my mother was on her deathbed, 364 00:21:03,444 --> 00:21:06,724 and the child I'd given birth to 365 00:21:06,724 --> 00:21:10,964 was kind of in intensive care and I was going to be burying him. 366 00:21:13,004 --> 00:21:15,884 And I think that's the other thing, that's the selfishness on the part 367 00:21:15,884 --> 00:21:19,364 of human beings, that it doesn't matter how much I saw in Rwanda, 368 00:21:19,364 --> 00:21:24,764 it wasn't until it affected me, personally, in my own life 369 00:21:24,764 --> 00:21:28,644 that I think that all of those levels of trauma 370 00:21:28,644 --> 00:21:30,684 kind of came to the fore. 371 00:21:30,684 --> 00:21:33,284 And I remember when I was sitting there with my son, 372 00:21:33,284 --> 00:21:34,924 Rwanda came into my head. 373 00:21:34,924 --> 00:21:39,084 I literally hugged him and I begged for his life. 374 00:21:39,084 --> 00:21:44,124 And I just thought, those poor children, those orphans, you know, 375 00:21:44,124 --> 00:21:47,924 who'd lost absolutely everything, everything. 376 00:21:49,164 --> 00:21:51,404 You know. Yeah... 377 00:21:52,564 --> 00:21:56,964 I mean, for somebody like you who's kind of gone through the worst, 378 00:21:56,964 --> 00:22:00,524 you know, the depths of it with your drink and, you know, 379 00:22:00,524 --> 00:22:02,164 points where I've seen you... 380 00:22:02,164 --> 00:22:03,764 Hmm. 381 00:22:03,764 --> 00:22:06,284 ..I remember trying to broach it with you a number of times, 382 00:22:06,284 --> 00:22:08,004 but you just couldn't deal with it. 383 00:22:08,004 --> 00:22:10,724 It was always, oh, F-off, you know, where you just think, 384 00:22:10,724 --> 00:22:14,484 how can this kind of human being, who's so together on some levels 385 00:22:14,484 --> 00:22:18,404 and yet, on other levels is just like a complete... 386 00:22:19,924 --> 00:22:22,884 Wreck? Yeah. F-up! Yeah. That's so true. 387 00:22:22,884 --> 00:22:26,924 You know, and you've pulled through. I mean, for somebody to come 388 00:22:26,924 --> 00:22:30,044 from a state of alcoholism 389 00:22:30,044 --> 00:22:31,804 right to where you are now, 390 00:22:31,804 --> 00:22:35,084 where you've been dry for what, over 20 years? 391 00:22:35,084 --> 00:22:38,524 I mean, my God, if you can't pat yourself on the back for that, 392 00:22:38,524 --> 00:22:39,724 Fergal... 393 00:22:43,684 --> 00:22:45,124 Come on! 394 00:22:45,124 --> 00:22:47,844 Come on, come on! 395 00:22:49,084 --> 00:22:51,404 Come on. Yeah, yeah. 396 00:22:51,404 --> 00:22:54,564 I expected that to be emotional and it was. 397 00:22:54,564 --> 00:22:57,804 But I think in a, in a very positive way. 398 00:22:57,804 --> 00:23:02,884 I do feel, though, if anything, it's made me realise just how much 399 00:23:02,884 --> 00:23:07,964 work there is still to be done in terms of the Rwandan genocide, 400 00:23:07,964 --> 00:23:10,004 and, er... 401 00:23:10,004 --> 00:23:13,964 ..and facing up to the emotions of that time. 402 00:23:13,964 --> 00:23:16,484 For example, I can't even look at the full film 403 00:23:16,484 --> 00:23:18,524 that we made back then. 404 00:23:18,524 --> 00:23:20,764 And that's a kind of avoidance. 405 00:23:21,804 --> 00:23:23,244 It's very, very... 406 00:23:24,844 --> 00:23:26,164 ..painful. 407 00:23:28,684 --> 00:23:31,564 Would it be a good time 408 00:23:31,564 --> 00:23:33,444 to talk about 409 00:23:33,444 --> 00:23:36,604 your ways of coping... Drink? ..in those early days? 410 00:23:36,604 --> 00:23:38,364 Yeah, yeah, let's go for it. 411 00:23:38,364 --> 00:23:39,924 Yeah! Why not? 412 00:23:39,924 --> 00:23:41,284 LAUGHTER 413 00:23:41,284 --> 00:23:44,164 I remember... 414 00:23:45,564 --> 00:23:46,964 ..what it was like... 415 00:23:48,404 --> 00:23:50,564 ..to drink the first beer... 416 00:23:52,444 --> 00:23:59,644 ..and the phenomenal ease that spread through my body. 417 00:23:59,644 --> 00:24:02,804 It was like somebody had let the air out. 418 00:24:02,804 --> 00:24:04,884 HE EXHALES 419 00:24:04,884 --> 00:24:08,604 And that was how I learned to medicate myself. 420 00:24:10,244 --> 00:24:14,204 I was one of these highly-functioning alcoholics. 421 00:24:14,204 --> 00:24:18,444 I had some of my greatest career success when I was still drinking. 422 00:24:18,444 --> 00:24:19,804 But... 423 00:24:21,164 --> 00:24:22,964 ..I was a mess. 424 00:24:22,964 --> 00:24:25,884 I was obviously suffering from PTSD, but it hadn't been diagnosed. 425 00:24:27,604 --> 00:24:31,084 But what was bloody clear and didn't need expert diagnosis 426 00:24:31,084 --> 00:24:34,084 was that my alcoholism was out of control. 427 00:24:36,124 --> 00:24:37,364 And... 428 00:24:38,964 --> 00:24:40,924 ..I went into rehab. 429 00:24:40,924 --> 00:24:42,604 It was life saving. 430 00:24:42,604 --> 00:24:44,204 It was life saving. 431 00:24:49,364 --> 00:24:52,964 South Africa, but particularly Rwanda, won me prizes 432 00:24:52,964 --> 00:24:54,404 and made me a name. 433 00:24:54,404 --> 00:24:57,084 And the result of that was that the BBC gave me a plum job. 434 00:24:57,084 --> 00:25:01,364 I was sent to Hong Kong to cover the last years of the British Empire 435 00:25:01,364 --> 00:25:03,964 and the transition to Chinese rule. 436 00:25:03,964 --> 00:25:07,444 ARCHIVE: The last rites of the British era have been performed. 437 00:25:07,444 --> 00:25:09,644 The illuminations you see in the sky behind me 438 00:25:09,644 --> 00:25:11,684 are a last gesture of farewell. 439 00:25:11,684 --> 00:25:16,364 PRESENT DAY: And at a career level, I was flying high. 440 00:25:16,364 --> 00:25:17,764 Inside... 441 00:25:18,684 --> 00:25:22,524 ..I was really starting to question 442 00:25:22,524 --> 00:25:25,364 what I was doing, why I was doing it. 443 00:25:27,684 --> 00:25:30,644 "My dear son, it is six o'clock in the morning 444 00:25:30,644 --> 00:25:32,604 "on the island of Hong Kong. 445 00:25:32,604 --> 00:25:34,644 "You are asleep, cradled in my left arm, 446 00:25:34,644 --> 00:25:37,764 "and I am learning the art of one-handed typing. 447 00:25:37,764 --> 00:25:41,364 "Your coming has turned me upside down and inside out. 448 00:25:41,364 --> 00:25:44,524 "So much that seemed essential to me has, in the past few days, 449 00:25:44,524 --> 00:25:46,604 "taken on a different colour. 450 00:25:46,604 --> 00:25:50,084 "Like many foreign correspondents I know, I've lived a life 451 00:25:50,084 --> 00:25:52,924 "that, on occasion, has veered close to the edge - 452 00:25:52,924 --> 00:25:54,724 "war zones, natural disasters, 453 00:25:54,724 --> 00:25:56,964 "darkness in all its shapes and forms." 454 00:26:00,884 --> 00:26:03,724 The mystery is, why did I need to go back to it? 455 00:26:03,724 --> 00:26:07,324 Why did I need to be in places where I would be terrified? 456 00:26:07,324 --> 00:26:11,404 ARCHIVE: We followed US Special Forces and marines 457 00:26:11,404 --> 00:26:13,804 conducting room-to-room searches. 458 00:26:14,884 --> 00:26:19,084 Don't tell me it was a rational response to keep going back 459 00:26:19,084 --> 00:26:22,564 to places that...where there was a chance of being killed. 460 00:26:22,564 --> 00:26:24,604 ARCHIVE: These are survivors. 461 00:26:24,604 --> 00:26:26,844 40 of their playmates are dead, 462 00:26:26,844 --> 00:26:29,884 40 children hacked and speared by the militia. 463 00:26:29,884 --> 00:26:32,404 PRESENT DAY: I wanted to go back again and again, 464 00:26:32,404 --> 00:26:35,804 and I would find all kinds of rationale for doing it. 465 00:26:35,804 --> 00:26:39,844 As we entered Qana, the sirens warned of a major tragedy. 466 00:26:42,284 --> 00:26:45,124 It was vitally important that I tell the story. 467 00:26:45,124 --> 00:26:47,764 It was important that I bear witness. 468 00:26:47,764 --> 00:26:51,164 The UN escorted us into the territory worst hit by violence, 469 00:26:51,164 --> 00:26:54,244 towards a village that has become notorious 470 00:26:54,244 --> 00:26:57,644 for an atrocity committed by men loyal to Nkunda. 471 00:26:57,644 --> 00:27:00,204 And of course, these were parts of the truth, 472 00:27:00,204 --> 00:27:01,644 but not the whole truth. 473 00:27:01,644 --> 00:27:03,404 Truth was, I couldn't stop. 474 00:27:03,404 --> 00:27:06,284 The imam's son was among the dead, and behind the mosque, 475 00:27:06,284 --> 00:27:09,524 we saw the shallow graves in which he and others had been buried. 476 00:27:09,524 --> 00:27:12,564 Their clothes still lay scattered on the ground. 477 00:27:12,564 --> 00:27:17,204 I was drawn to this, you know, like a moth to the flame. 478 00:27:17,204 --> 00:27:20,884 In spite of the promises made to civilians that they will be 479 00:27:20,884 --> 00:27:24,204 protected during time of war, for the people of Bint Jbeil 480 00:27:24,204 --> 00:27:26,524 there was no protection at all. 481 00:27:26,524 --> 00:27:29,204 Fergal Keane, BBC News, Bint Jbeil. 482 00:27:39,364 --> 00:27:41,884 One of the things that's really struck me, 483 00:27:41,884 --> 00:27:45,844 whether I'm covering a conflict in Central Africa 484 00:27:45,844 --> 00:27:48,484 or in the Balkans or Ukraine, 485 00:27:48,484 --> 00:27:50,724 is I keep asking myself, 486 00:27:50,724 --> 00:27:52,964 what did the history do, 487 00:27:52,964 --> 00:27:56,164 not just to the country, but to the minds of the people, 488 00:27:56,164 --> 00:27:57,964 to their mentality? 489 00:27:59,324 --> 00:28:01,244 Don't tell me it didn't affect them. 490 00:28:05,764 --> 00:28:09,404 I've always been fascinated by history, and as I get older, 491 00:28:09,404 --> 00:28:11,044 my own family history. 492 00:28:11,044 --> 00:28:15,564 Scientists are researching possible historic family links to conditions 493 00:28:15,564 --> 00:28:17,844 like depression and PTSD. 494 00:28:17,844 --> 00:28:20,564 They call it transgenerational trauma. 495 00:28:22,604 --> 00:28:28,324 I mean, I have to say that I'm never someone who has believed in history 496 00:28:28,324 --> 00:28:32,244 as an alibi, so I behave in a certain way because my own lot 497 00:28:32,244 --> 00:28:35,484 were treated appallingly or suffered terribly. 498 00:28:36,844 --> 00:28:40,484 You know, for me, the essence of getting well is about my own 499 00:28:40,484 --> 00:28:42,924 responsibility for where I am now. 500 00:28:42,924 --> 00:28:44,084 But... 501 00:28:45,044 --> 00:28:47,164 ..it might help me to get better 502 00:28:47,164 --> 00:28:49,844 to know how much of this 503 00:28:49,844 --> 00:28:52,884 was shaped by the experiences of the past. 504 00:28:55,884 --> 00:29:00,484 I'm thinking about what I carry, what we carry, 505 00:29:00,484 --> 00:29:06,284 and I'm in a place which was devastated during the Great Famine 506 00:29:06,284 --> 00:29:08,084 of the 19th century. 507 00:29:08,084 --> 00:29:12,604 And which was then convulsed by a revolutionary war 508 00:29:12,604 --> 00:29:16,364 and then by a civil war in which my grandmother 509 00:29:16,364 --> 00:29:19,724 and other members of the family took part. 510 00:29:22,164 --> 00:29:27,084 My grandmother would have been 19 or there or thereabouts when she became 511 00:29:27,084 --> 00:29:30,884 embroiled in this conflict here in Listowel. 512 00:29:30,884 --> 00:29:34,524 She grew up here and I used to come here on summer holidays, 513 00:29:34,524 --> 00:29:36,764 and I remember a woman who was 514 00:29:36,764 --> 00:29:40,764 vivacious, funny, extremely clever, 515 00:29:40,764 --> 00:29:43,084 but who could also be struck 516 00:29:43,084 --> 00:29:45,284 by the most debilitating 517 00:29:45,284 --> 00:29:47,684 depressions and anxiety. 518 00:29:49,564 --> 00:29:53,164 My grandmother, Hanna, was an extremely brave woman. 519 00:29:53,164 --> 00:29:57,284 What I remember of her is the welcome, is the kindness. 520 00:29:57,284 --> 00:30:00,324 Then moments, periods 521 00:30:00,324 --> 00:30:04,124 when she would take to the bed 522 00:30:04,124 --> 00:30:06,204 with what we in Ireland called, "the nerves". 523 00:30:06,204 --> 00:30:11,924 Now myself, having been more than touched by a touch of the nerves, 524 00:30:11,924 --> 00:30:14,164 God, I have such compassion for her. 525 00:30:14,164 --> 00:30:18,924 And I'm lucky. You know, I live in an enlightened time, she didn't. 526 00:30:18,924 --> 00:30:22,204 She lived in a time where it was whispered about, 527 00:30:22,204 --> 00:30:24,164 and I wish she had lived 528 00:30:24,164 --> 00:30:26,564 in more enlightened times. 529 00:30:26,564 --> 00:30:28,084 That's all I can say. 530 00:30:28,084 --> 00:30:32,364 She was greatly loved by her children and by her grandchildren. 531 00:30:32,364 --> 00:30:35,964 But she had that loneliness that I know, 532 00:30:35,964 --> 00:30:37,924 the loneliness of mental illness. 533 00:30:43,004 --> 00:30:45,604 I think it's one thing to know that my grandmother 534 00:30:45,604 --> 00:30:49,284 went through the horror of that war of insurgency, 535 00:30:49,284 --> 00:30:51,204 the civil war that followed, 536 00:30:51,204 --> 00:30:54,084 to know that her people before her 537 00:30:54,084 --> 00:30:58,844 lived through the appalling trauma of the Great Famine and survived it. 538 00:31:00,244 --> 00:31:03,884 But I have to ask, did that make any difference to me? 539 00:31:03,884 --> 00:31:06,364 Has that shaped me in any way? 540 00:31:06,364 --> 00:31:08,604 Can trauma be handed on? 541 00:31:08,604 --> 00:31:11,484 And I'm going to go and see someone who I think 542 00:31:11,484 --> 00:31:13,644 might have some answers to that. 543 00:31:15,364 --> 00:31:18,164 He's someone I know and whose work I really respect, 544 00:31:18,164 --> 00:31:21,884 one of the foremost practitioners and thinkers in this field, 545 00:31:21,884 --> 00:31:25,044 the former president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, 546 00:31:25,044 --> 00:31:26,684 Professor Simon Wessely. 547 00:31:28,684 --> 00:31:32,764 Do you think that my great grandparents, for example, 548 00:31:32,764 --> 00:31:36,604 are children of the family of the Irish famine, 549 00:31:36,604 --> 00:31:39,324 my grandmother fought in the War of Independence, 550 00:31:39,324 --> 00:31:43,724 does the fact that she experienced wartime trauma and then years later 551 00:31:43,724 --> 00:31:46,484 is struck down with severe depression, 552 00:31:46,484 --> 00:31:49,724 does it make it in any way more likely that I would? 553 00:31:49,724 --> 00:31:52,764 Well... Experience these things? 554 00:31:52,764 --> 00:31:56,364 The problem always here, though, is that 555 00:31:56,364 --> 00:31:58,124 talking to a single person, 556 00:31:58,124 --> 00:32:00,564 it's very difficult to make these kind of links. 557 00:32:00,564 --> 00:32:03,644 But I can say over 1,000 people, 558 00:32:03,644 --> 00:32:08,484 there will be links between a family history of trauma 559 00:32:08,484 --> 00:32:13,564 and a person's chances of getting it, they are increased. 560 00:32:13,564 --> 00:32:17,644 That's true. That does not mean that there's a one to one relationship 561 00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:19,524 or anything even close to that. 562 00:32:19,524 --> 00:32:24,084 Why did I get PTSD and other people I know... 563 00:32:25,764 --> 00:32:30,004 ..didn't get it? Other people who went through traumatic events? 564 00:32:30,004 --> 00:32:31,884 Can you tell why? 565 00:32:31,884 --> 00:32:36,124 It is incredibly difficult in any given individual to say 566 00:32:36,124 --> 00:32:40,404 why this person got it, why you got it and your neighbour didn't. 567 00:32:40,404 --> 00:32:43,844 What you can do, you can say, you can identify someone as being 568 00:32:43,844 --> 00:32:46,884 at slightly higher risk, but we did a quite... 569 00:32:46,884 --> 00:32:50,164 We did a natural experiment before the war in Iraq, 570 00:32:50,164 --> 00:32:52,764 we screened all the British forces in Germany 571 00:32:52,764 --> 00:32:54,604 and then the war in Iraq came. 572 00:32:54,604 --> 00:32:56,844 That was nothing to do with us, but it just so happened 573 00:32:56,844 --> 00:32:58,844 that we had just finished screening them all. 574 00:32:58,844 --> 00:33:02,084 We kept the data. We then follow them all up and found out 575 00:33:02,084 --> 00:33:04,244 who had had problems, who hadn't. 576 00:33:04,244 --> 00:33:07,244 And we could predict some. Yes, we could. 577 00:33:07,244 --> 00:33:10,844 But for everyone we got right, we got six wrong. 578 00:33:10,844 --> 00:33:14,084 So that's six people whose lives we would have wrecked 579 00:33:14,084 --> 00:33:16,444 because they wouldn't have been allowed to go to war, 580 00:33:16,444 --> 00:33:17,964 or six journalists who had been told, 581 00:33:17,964 --> 00:33:19,604 "You can't be a foreign correspondent", 582 00:33:19,604 --> 00:33:21,444 and yet, they would have been very good 583 00:33:21,444 --> 00:33:24,084 for one we'd correctly identified. Wow. 584 00:33:24,084 --> 00:33:26,884 So that tells you the difficulties we face 585 00:33:26,884 --> 00:33:28,924 when you ask me a question like that. 586 00:33:34,164 --> 00:33:38,924 Nobody can say with certainty why some get PTSD and others don't. 587 00:33:38,924 --> 00:33:43,164 But for those who do, fighting it alone can be painful. 588 00:33:43,164 --> 00:33:44,964 I'm privileged. 589 00:33:44,964 --> 00:33:48,084 I've had the support of my bosses, access to medication 590 00:33:48,084 --> 00:33:51,484 and hospital care, and I've been in therapy for some years. 591 00:33:53,164 --> 00:33:55,964 The PTSD that I've been diagnosed with, 592 00:33:55,964 --> 00:33:59,404 complex PTSD, 593 00:33:59,404 --> 00:34:01,364 essentially means... 594 00:34:01,364 --> 00:34:03,804 ..a trauma that arises 595 00:34:03,804 --> 00:34:09,364 from witnessing multiple traumatic events. 596 00:34:09,364 --> 00:34:13,844 So again, and again, and again, in my case. 597 00:34:16,484 --> 00:34:20,924 It was around, I think, 2008, there or thereabouts, 598 00:34:20,924 --> 00:34:24,804 when I was given a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder. 599 00:34:24,804 --> 00:34:28,444 And it was an incredibly important moment, 600 00:34:28,444 --> 00:34:31,444 not because it, you know, gave me temporary relief 601 00:34:31,444 --> 00:34:35,204 from what I was going through, but I formed a vital relationship. 602 00:34:35,204 --> 00:34:38,604 I think one that has undoubtedly brought me to the place 603 00:34:38,604 --> 00:34:41,244 where I'm able to say, no more war, 604 00:34:41,244 --> 00:34:43,684 no more putting my mind 605 00:34:43,684 --> 00:34:46,124 through what I've put it through. 606 00:34:47,684 --> 00:34:50,764 How does it feel for you to be here at this place? Great. 607 00:34:50,764 --> 00:34:53,484 I've only happy memories. Yeah, really? Happy? 608 00:34:53,484 --> 00:34:57,964 Yeah, because, you know, I came in, whenever I've come in, 609 00:34:57,964 --> 00:35:00,964 it's been in deep despair and panic. Mm-hm. 610 00:35:00,964 --> 00:35:04,124 But, erm, I always felt safe. 611 00:35:04,124 --> 00:35:06,524 I got sober here and... 612 00:35:07,884 --> 00:35:09,684 ..I started working with you. 613 00:35:10,924 --> 00:35:13,764 One of the therapy techniques I practised with Cristina 614 00:35:13,764 --> 00:35:17,444 is something called Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing, 615 00:35:17,444 --> 00:35:20,084 or EMDR for short. 616 00:35:20,084 --> 00:35:22,084 I found it helpful. 617 00:35:24,524 --> 00:35:27,924 So EMDR is a technique that is based on research 618 00:35:27,924 --> 00:35:31,404 done with the rapid eye movements, REM, 619 00:35:31,404 --> 00:35:33,044 you probably have heard of that. 620 00:35:33,044 --> 00:35:34,884 So, as you probably know, during the night 621 00:35:34,884 --> 00:35:39,364 when we are sleeping, there are moments when our eyes move rapidly. 622 00:35:39,364 --> 00:35:43,404 And there is research that shows that if you pair the 623 00:35:43,404 --> 00:35:46,044 rapid eye movements with dreams, 624 00:35:46,044 --> 00:35:48,684 very often the emotional content 625 00:35:48,684 --> 00:35:52,364 of the dreams gets process, which means that then the person 626 00:35:52,364 --> 00:35:55,404 feels better about it, which is what we want, in simple. 627 00:35:55,404 --> 00:35:58,244 So the technique, it tries to replicate that 628 00:35:58,244 --> 00:36:00,044 when the person is awake. 629 00:36:00,044 --> 00:36:01,884 The way I understand it, 630 00:36:01,884 --> 00:36:05,324 EMDR gives me a chance... 631 00:36:06,364 --> 00:36:10,284 ..to process painful images and memories. 632 00:36:10,284 --> 00:36:14,764 And I guess, at its simplest, it's about taking pain out, 633 00:36:14,764 --> 00:36:18,484 putting it into a place where I can live with it. 634 00:36:18,484 --> 00:36:20,164 I'll give you an example. 635 00:36:20,164 --> 00:36:24,244 Back in 2006, I was reporting from Lebanon when I was caught up 636 00:36:24,244 --> 00:36:26,084 in a mortar attack. 637 00:36:26,084 --> 00:36:28,644 They've just landed a shell right beside us. 638 00:36:30,524 --> 00:36:33,164 As we raced away, another shell came in. 639 00:36:33,164 --> 00:36:35,404 Hang on, hang on. SHARP BANG 640 00:36:36,884 --> 00:36:39,324 We ran to help the wounded. 641 00:36:39,324 --> 00:36:43,324 In the fear, we couldn't tell where the rounds were coming from. Fergal! 642 00:36:43,324 --> 00:36:45,764 This is the panic of war. 643 00:36:45,764 --> 00:36:47,404 Come on. 644 00:36:47,404 --> 00:36:50,564 By late afternoon, a UN escort brought us and a huge number 645 00:36:50,564 --> 00:36:53,684 of refugees safely back to Tyre. Just get in! 646 00:36:53,684 --> 00:36:57,564 So do you think you'll be OK closing your eyes? Yeah. 647 00:36:57,564 --> 00:37:01,484 The way I often do bilateral stimulation is by tapping 648 00:37:01,484 --> 00:37:03,244 on your hands, like... 649 00:37:03,244 --> 00:37:04,924 I'm going to start tapping now. 650 00:37:04,924 --> 00:37:09,124 Cristina's method is by tapping me on my left and then on my right hand 651 00:37:09,124 --> 00:37:12,604 to stimulate different sides of my brain, in the same way 652 00:37:12,604 --> 00:37:15,124 that rapid eye movement does. 653 00:37:15,124 --> 00:37:19,084 So if you can please close your eyes and tell me as much as you can 654 00:37:19,084 --> 00:37:21,484 about what you see or maybe what you hear. 655 00:37:21,484 --> 00:37:24,124 So we're, we're coming along... 656 00:37:26,404 --> 00:37:28,844 ..a flat, level piece of road. Mm-hm. 657 00:37:28,844 --> 00:37:30,844 I hear the sound of explosion. 658 00:37:31,884 --> 00:37:33,484 Another one. Mm-hm. 659 00:37:34,604 --> 00:37:37,404 And we're suddenly next to a car that's been hit. 660 00:37:40,004 --> 00:37:42,844 There's people, two guys sitting in the car and there's blood on them. 661 00:37:42,844 --> 00:37:45,284 And we're saying to them, "Come on, let's go." 662 00:37:45,284 --> 00:37:48,924 Sometimes EMDR does very little, 663 00:37:48,924 --> 00:37:52,604 but sometimes it can be incredibly powerful. 664 00:37:52,604 --> 00:37:57,604 And when I am in that zone, it's like being there. 665 00:37:59,204 --> 00:38:01,524 It really is like being there. 666 00:38:01,524 --> 00:38:06,644 And it's quite, it's quite a sensation 667 00:38:06,644 --> 00:38:09,324 to just let it go free, go back into the memories 668 00:38:09,324 --> 00:38:11,204 and see what comes. 669 00:38:11,204 --> 00:38:13,924 I'm there in the, on the road and I'm thinking, "Jesus". 670 00:38:15,684 --> 00:38:17,684 Yes? "We'll be killed any second now. 671 00:38:17,684 --> 00:38:20,244 "They can shell us again." That's the moment, this is? 672 00:38:20,244 --> 00:38:24,844 So first of all, are you feeling any emotion now as you recall this? 673 00:38:24,844 --> 00:38:27,324 A bit of anxiety. OK. 674 00:38:27,324 --> 00:38:29,364 If you will can rate it out of ten for me. 675 00:38:29,364 --> 00:38:31,404 Ten is the maximum, zero is nothing. 676 00:38:31,404 --> 00:38:34,684 Seven. Like a seven? That's, that's, that's quite high. OK. 677 00:38:34,684 --> 00:38:39,044 So, remember, what the EMDR does is it tries to change that meaning, 678 00:38:39,044 --> 00:38:43,044 it's like we remove that thought associated with this memory 679 00:38:43,044 --> 00:38:45,804 and we want to install a different thought. 680 00:38:45,804 --> 00:38:48,404 What different thought, alternative thought 681 00:38:48,404 --> 00:38:51,044 would you like to have instead? I wasn't killed. 682 00:38:51,044 --> 00:38:53,124 I survived. OK. 683 00:38:53,124 --> 00:38:55,964 OK, so please go back to the memory, the moment when you thought 684 00:38:55,964 --> 00:38:57,804 that you were going to be killed. 685 00:39:01,124 --> 00:39:05,924 We got to the UN base with the Israelis still hitting vehicles, 686 00:39:05,924 --> 00:39:08,764 and then we got back to the hotel and I remember thinking... 687 00:39:08,764 --> 00:39:10,884 How does that feel? 688 00:39:10,884 --> 00:39:12,444 Get through the gate. The relief. OK. 689 00:39:12,444 --> 00:39:14,804 And I looked down, my hands were covered in blood. 690 00:39:14,804 --> 00:39:16,324 The guy's blood. 691 00:39:17,524 --> 00:39:21,164 OK, so let's continue from that moment, OK. 692 00:39:24,564 --> 00:39:27,684 Take a deep breath, please. We had two thoughts. 693 00:39:27,684 --> 00:39:30,524 The negative thought was, I'm going to die. 694 00:39:30,524 --> 00:39:33,764 The alternative thought is, I survived. 695 00:39:33,764 --> 00:39:37,004 Which one feels more true now? I survived. OK. 696 00:39:37,004 --> 00:39:40,644 But now we have a different side to it. This is sadness, OK. 697 00:39:40,644 --> 00:39:43,924 You want to stop? You want some water? It's OK. OK. 698 00:39:57,204 --> 00:39:58,844 Go through it. 699 00:39:59,964 --> 00:40:02,404 OK, take a deep breath, please. 700 00:40:02,404 --> 00:40:05,524 What do you think about yourself right now? 701 00:40:05,524 --> 00:40:08,684 Considering everything we did today. 702 00:40:08,684 --> 00:40:10,924 That I have a way to go. 703 00:40:10,924 --> 00:40:12,444 Still. 704 00:40:12,444 --> 00:40:16,364 The feelings are still powerful, even after all these years. 705 00:40:16,364 --> 00:40:17,644 All right. 706 00:40:17,644 --> 00:40:20,644 And do you feel positive in that respect? Yeah. 707 00:40:21,724 --> 00:40:25,764 Fuck, if I didn't, I'd be back on the front line or I'd be drinking. 708 00:40:25,764 --> 00:40:27,284 OK. Yeah? Of course. 709 00:40:27,284 --> 00:40:30,244 Quite a few times when I've come out of the EMDR sessions, 710 00:40:30,244 --> 00:40:33,484 I'm just wiped out and drained. 711 00:40:33,484 --> 00:40:37,524 It was like taking a bottle which has, you know, 712 00:40:37,524 --> 00:40:42,084 sand or something in it or some kind of sediment and shaking it, 713 00:40:42,084 --> 00:40:44,604 and it can take for days... 714 00:40:44,604 --> 00:40:46,404 ..for things to settle. 715 00:40:46,404 --> 00:40:50,524 And I do feel, I have felt much clearer... 716 00:40:51,764 --> 00:40:55,204 ..lighter when it does settle. 717 00:40:56,444 --> 00:41:00,484 I mean, what we do here can be incredibly emotionally draining. 718 00:41:00,484 --> 00:41:02,804 I know. But I know that, you know, 719 00:41:02,804 --> 00:41:05,564 it's demanding, demanding for you too. 720 00:41:05,564 --> 00:41:08,524 But I just want to say something to you, which I would never normally 721 00:41:08,524 --> 00:41:10,444 say in a therapy session. 722 00:41:11,884 --> 00:41:15,404 And that's "Thank you", because I think you helped to save my life. 723 00:41:16,724 --> 00:41:18,564 Thank you for saying it. 724 00:41:18,564 --> 00:41:20,204 WHISPERING: It's the truth. 725 00:41:21,604 --> 00:41:22,844 SOFTLY: Thank you. 726 00:41:22,844 --> 00:41:26,244 I think EMDR has helped me beyond a shadow of a doubt, 727 00:41:26,244 --> 00:41:27,724 but it's not a cure all. 728 00:41:27,724 --> 00:41:32,484 Each individual needs a specific treatment, so we can't say one thing 729 00:41:32,484 --> 00:41:36,284 is going to fix everything, but it's part of a kind of set of tools 730 00:41:36,284 --> 00:41:40,164 that can be hugely beneficial for people like me. 731 00:41:45,244 --> 00:41:49,844 One-to-one therapy with Cristina has helped me greatly, 732 00:41:49,844 --> 00:41:53,524 but I'm also interested in seeing what can happen in group therapy 733 00:41:53,524 --> 00:41:54,924 with PTSD sufferers. 734 00:41:56,364 --> 00:41:59,004 Here in Northern Ireland, they've experienced some 735 00:41:59,004 --> 00:42:02,244 of the highest rates of PTSD in the United Kingdom. 736 00:42:02,244 --> 00:42:06,004 This whole journey for me isn't about languishing in the past, 737 00:42:06,004 --> 00:42:09,564 you know, and looking at misery, it's about solutions now. 738 00:42:09,564 --> 00:42:12,724 And I'm going to a place here in Belfast 739 00:42:12,724 --> 00:42:15,844 where I think they've been doing something remarkable 740 00:42:15,844 --> 00:42:18,684 to help people who've been through trauma. 741 00:42:23,604 --> 00:42:26,004 How are you doing? How are you, Fergal? 742 00:42:26,004 --> 00:42:29,444 How nice to meet you. Welcome to Wave. Thank you very much. 743 00:42:29,444 --> 00:42:32,404 We want to go round the back to the garden... 744 00:42:32,404 --> 00:42:34,244 Great. ..and have a seat. 745 00:42:34,244 --> 00:42:38,324 I'm meeting trauma nurse Isabel Stewart of the Wave Therapy Centre, 746 00:42:38,324 --> 00:42:41,644 who's going to introduce me to some people with PTSD. 747 00:42:41,644 --> 00:42:44,484 They've been receiving treatment at Wave in Belfast 748 00:42:44,484 --> 00:42:46,124 for a number of years. 749 00:42:47,284 --> 00:42:50,884 My name's Liam. I was injured in 1999. 750 00:42:50,884 --> 00:42:54,524 My name's Cathy. In 1990, 751 00:42:54,524 --> 00:42:57,884 there was an IRA 1,000lb bomb 752 00:42:57,884 --> 00:42:59,924 which was put under the road. 753 00:42:59,924 --> 00:43:02,404 They detonated the bomb. 754 00:43:02,404 --> 00:43:05,244 Two cars were almost parallel with each other. 755 00:43:05,244 --> 00:43:07,964 One went one side of the road, one went in the other. 756 00:43:07,964 --> 00:43:10,884 Three policemen and a nun were killed by that bomb 757 00:43:10,884 --> 00:43:12,684 and I was a passenger with the nun. 758 00:43:14,204 --> 00:43:15,764 My name's Peter 759 00:43:15,764 --> 00:43:20,804 and September the 27th in 1979, 760 00:43:20,804 --> 00:43:24,924 I was married at the time, had three young children. 761 00:43:24,924 --> 00:43:28,164 It's my house there, just where he's passing. 762 00:43:28,164 --> 00:43:30,004 It's amazing. It looks very normal. 763 00:43:31,724 --> 00:43:34,684 I'm sitting playing with the baby and the doorbell rang. 764 00:43:34,684 --> 00:43:37,724 Anne, my wife got up, no big deal, 765 00:43:37,724 --> 00:43:39,204 to go and answer the door 766 00:43:39,204 --> 00:43:43,444 and the next thing I heard her squeal, "Gunmen, gunmen." 767 00:43:44,564 --> 00:43:48,524 The bullet hit me through the shoulder, down, hit the spine. 768 00:43:48,524 --> 00:43:52,964 Tried to get up again, the legs wouldn't work. 769 00:43:52,964 --> 00:43:56,404 I didn't know nothing about PTSD, nothing at the time. 770 00:43:56,404 --> 00:43:59,244 But then something would come on the news and it'd be another 771 00:43:59,244 --> 00:44:02,084 murder and I could see Anne's face. 772 00:44:02,084 --> 00:44:05,964 I never forget it, it was as if she was a statue, 773 00:44:05,964 --> 00:44:10,284 and then she would start to go and get a bottle of vodka. 774 00:44:10,284 --> 00:44:14,604 The psychiatrist, he told me after her diagnosis, that she had PTSD, 775 00:44:14,604 --> 00:44:18,004 and I remember going to doctors with Anne for treatment. 776 00:44:18,004 --> 00:44:21,164 But they kept saying to me, "Oh, no, we have to deal 777 00:44:21,164 --> 00:44:24,324 "with the alcohol problem before we look at THAT problem". 778 00:44:24,324 --> 00:44:28,084 But she never had an addiction or a drink problem before the shooting. 779 00:44:28,084 --> 00:44:32,764 And then...in 2006, 780 00:44:32,764 --> 00:44:35,244 she said to me, "I'm going to bed, I don't feel well". 781 00:44:35,244 --> 00:44:38,364 And when I went upstairs, Anne was dead in the bed. 782 00:44:39,884 --> 00:44:41,764 Just...dead. 783 00:44:43,924 --> 00:44:46,404 And, you know, 784 00:44:46,404 --> 00:44:49,604 so, I'm sort of trapped in that image. 785 00:44:51,044 --> 00:44:53,884 Can I, if, if you don't mind...? Go ahead. 786 00:44:53,884 --> 00:44:58,164 I mean, it's humbling for me to sit with you all, 787 00:44:58,164 --> 00:45:01,404 given what you've all gone through. 788 00:45:01,404 --> 00:45:04,684 It's the first time I've ever sat among a group of people 789 00:45:04,684 --> 00:45:08,484 like me, with PTSD. I've never, ever had that experience. 790 00:45:08,484 --> 00:45:11,844 It's made me determined, I think, 791 00:45:11,844 --> 00:45:16,244 to go back to London and try and find a group like this 792 00:45:16,244 --> 00:45:18,684 because I've been battling this, you know... 793 00:45:18,684 --> 00:45:22,804 Yeah, I go to my therapist and I talk to friends, 794 00:45:22,804 --> 00:45:27,004 but I haven't been sitting with people like you who get it. 795 00:45:27,004 --> 00:45:29,404 One of the regrets that I would have is I didn't discover 796 00:45:29,404 --> 00:45:34,324 the Wave organisation until about 2009. Anne died in 2006. 797 00:45:34,324 --> 00:45:38,244 I think talking to other women here would have been life-saving for her. 798 00:45:38,244 --> 00:45:42,044 For me, coming to Wave was the first time I really felt 799 00:45:42,044 --> 00:45:46,084 that I was with, like you're saying, like-minded people 800 00:45:46,084 --> 00:45:52,004 who could understand that what I was going through wasn't insanity 801 00:45:52,004 --> 00:45:54,044 for want of a better word. 802 00:45:54,044 --> 00:45:58,044 It's important to get that diagnosis because a diagnosis is going to free 803 00:45:58,044 --> 00:46:00,124 you up rather than tying you down. 804 00:46:00,124 --> 00:46:02,564 When you name something, you take the fear away. 805 00:46:02,564 --> 00:46:04,004 Absolutely, absolutely. 806 00:46:04,004 --> 00:46:08,444 I was at a point, in my own mind, barking mad. 807 00:46:08,444 --> 00:46:09,884 You know? 808 00:46:09,884 --> 00:46:12,484 And going to a doctor who said, what's happening 809 00:46:12,484 --> 00:46:15,764 is an entirely rational response 810 00:46:15,764 --> 00:46:18,164 to terrible experiences. 811 00:46:19,204 --> 00:46:21,044 That was like a liberation. 812 00:46:21,044 --> 00:46:26,324 And to see you all, with all the struggles that you're going through, 813 00:46:26,324 --> 00:46:29,564 you know, and you describe them so, so vividly and so well, 814 00:46:29,564 --> 00:46:33,844 but you're all, you're all keeping going and you're confronting it, 815 00:46:33,844 --> 00:46:35,844 you're doing something about it. 816 00:46:35,844 --> 00:46:37,484 That really is... 817 00:46:39,164 --> 00:46:42,204 It strikes me as the key to it. It's inspirational. 818 00:46:42,204 --> 00:46:44,404 Yeah, it is. It is inspirational. Yeah. 819 00:46:44,404 --> 00:46:46,644 Having to come to terms with a wheelchair is not easy, 820 00:46:46,644 --> 00:46:49,324 believe you me. As I have said before, I'm looking, 821 00:46:49,324 --> 00:46:52,324 used to be looking down on the baldy patches on men's heads. 822 00:46:52,324 --> 00:46:55,764 Now I'm looking at big fat arses, you know what I mean? 823 00:46:55,764 --> 00:46:58,804 LAUGHTER 824 00:47:07,164 --> 00:47:10,684 The experiences that I've had and that they've had, 825 00:47:10,684 --> 00:47:13,044 you know, they're obviously very different. 826 00:47:13,044 --> 00:47:15,884 But there's just that great sense of being with people 827 00:47:15,884 --> 00:47:17,604 who understand, 828 00:47:17,604 --> 00:47:22,084 because the symptoms that we go through are really similar. 829 00:47:22,084 --> 00:47:26,644 And I just felt liberated being among people who got it. 830 00:47:34,564 --> 00:47:38,644 What's really becoming clear to me on this journey 831 00:47:38,644 --> 00:47:42,484 is that you just have to keep pushing yourself, 832 00:47:42,484 --> 00:47:45,924 not believing there's going to be one thing that cures you, 833 00:47:45,924 --> 00:47:50,604 but maybe a series of essential encounters. 834 00:47:51,764 --> 00:47:55,364 I hope I'm on my way to one of those now. 835 00:47:56,924 --> 00:48:01,164 It's back into a place and events 836 00:48:01,164 --> 00:48:02,924 that I've always feared - 837 00:48:02,924 --> 00:48:04,764 Rwanda. 838 00:48:07,084 --> 00:48:12,324 I haven't watched this film since 1994 when we made it. 839 00:48:14,804 --> 00:48:16,684 And I feel I have to watch it 840 00:48:16,684 --> 00:48:18,844 if I'm going to confront... 841 00:48:20,044 --> 00:48:21,284 ..the past. 842 00:48:21,284 --> 00:48:25,524 I feel I can't keep avoiding the reality of it. 843 00:48:25,524 --> 00:48:29,004 PROGRAMME: It destroys what it can no longer control 844 00:48:29,004 --> 00:48:32,244 and everywhere, mutilation and death, 845 00:48:32,244 --> 00:48:37,484 that which first you smell and then see, again and again. 846 00:48:43,404 --> 00:48:47,684 In Rwanda, I was able to leave and, more than anywhere else, 847 00:48:47,684 --> 00:48:51,364 it left me with a feeling that I failed as a human being 848 00:48:51,364 --> 00:48:54,764 who saw great suffering and then got on a plane and went home, 849 00:48:54,764 --> 00:48:57,044 back to my comfortable life. 850 00:49:01,324 --> 00:49:04,924 Learning to live with PTSD means facing feelings about Rwanda 851 00:49:04,924 --> 00:49:06,964 that I've suppressed. 852 00:49:06,964 --> 00:49:10,204 I made a start meeting the documentary maker, 853 00:49:10,204 --> 00:49:12,444 Rizu Hamid, earlier. 854 00:49:12,444 --> 00:49:16,124 Now I'm going a step further to meet someone who came from hell 855 00:49:16,124 --> 00:49:18,164 to a very changed life. 856 00:49:22,924 --> 00:49:24,444 Beata was a kid. 857 00:49:24,444 --> 00:49:28,924 She was very young, so it was during the genocide. 858 00:49:28,924 --> 00:49:33,124 She and other orphans were being taken out through the roadblocks 859 00:49:33,124 --> 00:49:34,724 of the extremists. 860 00:49:36,484 --> 00:49:39,724 And these roadblocks had been, you know, butcher zones. 861 00:49:40,924 --> 00:49:45,244 Erm, it was that journey out, I'll never forget, 862 00:49:45,244 --> 00:49:47,804 it was, it was just terrifying. 863 00:49:47,804 --> 00:49:50,924 Every roadblock we stopped at they would open the door, 864 00:49:50,924 --> 00:49:54,124 or the militia would, the Interahamwe, as they called them, 865 00:49:54,124 --> 00:49:57,084 who'd climb up in and look at the kids. 866 00:49:57,084 --> 00:49:59,724 You could see the terror on these children's faces 867 00:49:59,724 --> 00:50:01,244 and Beata was one of them. 868 00:50:04,084 --> 00:50:07,124 I'm not going there as a reporter to interview someone. 869 00:50:08,804 --> 00:50:12,284 I'm going to someone who was there at that place at that time... 870 00:50:13,964 --> 00:50:16,284 ..and selfishly to see if she can help me. 871 00:50:18,404 --> 00:50:20,724 It seems a lot, you know, from a... 872 00:50:23,164 --> 00:50:26,284 ..a journalist to ask of a survivor of genocide. 873 00:50:28,244 --> 00:50:31,244 I think maybe it might be a way of confronting the past, 874 00:50:31,244 --> 00:50:33,124 which is damaging. 875 00:50:39,884 --> 00:50:44,284 I met Beata briefly ten years ago in London when she reached out 876 00:50:44,284 --> 00:50:47,124 looking for information about the convoy. 877 00:50:52,204 --> 00:50:53,844 Waiting. 878 00:50:55,764 --> 00:50:57,884 Nervous? Yeah. 879 00:51:06,844 --> 00:51:08,764 Welcome. Thank you. 880 00:51:08,764 --> 00:51:10,884 Good to see you. Good to see you. 881 00:51:10,884 --> 00:51:14,844 Yeah, long time. You've come. Yeah, got here. Come in. 882 00:51:14,844 --> 00:51:16,164 Definitely. 883 00:51:17,204 --> 00:51:18,244 Hey. 884 00:51:18,244 --> 00:51:21,764 So this is the truck where I was in with my mother. 885 00:51:21,764 --> 00:51:26,364 So this truck was, that was right in front of the vehicle I was in. 886 00:51:26,364 --> 00:51:28,964 Because every time it stopped at a roadblock, 887 00:51:28,964 --> 00:51:33,444 I could see the door would open, the militia would get up. 888 00:51:33,444 --> 00:51:35,404 They'd look in, 889 00:51:35,404 --> 00:51:38,124 and there you were. 890 00:51:38,124 --> 00:51:41,764 Wow. Because it was supposed to be a convoy with small children, 891 00:51:41,764 --> 00:51:44,044 we were not officially there. 892 00:51:44,044 --> 00:51:47,044 Yeah. Because I was 15, my mother was an adult. 893 00:51:47,044 --> 00:51:51,524 So we went in the back of the truck... 894 00:51:51,524 --> 00:51:53,724 Blankets over your heads. Blankets over our heads 895 00:51:53,724 --> 00:51:56,404 and we will ask the children to sit on us. 896 00:51:56,404 --> 00:51:59,724 They hid you? Yes. The younger children hid you. Yes. 897 00:51:59,724 --> 00:52:01,604 And were like four or five. 898 00:52:01,604 --> 00:52:04,524 I remember them, but I didn't know you then. 899 00:52:04,524 --> 00:52:07,044 I didn't even know you were hiding under this blanket. Hm. 900 00:52:07,044 --> 00:52:08,524 Wow. 901 00:52:09,604 --> 00:52:12,124 Beata, do you suffer... 902 00:52:13,524 --> 00:52:15,084 ..from trauma? 903 00:52:16,524 --> 00:52:19,164 I don't think so. 904 00:52:19,164 --> 00:52:22,924 You know, you lost people who were close to you in this genocide. 905 00:52:22,924 --> 00:52:25,564 You were afraid for your life. 906 00:52:25,564 --> 00:52:30,124 And yet, here you are, you're, you're remarkably together. 907 00:52:30,124 --> 00:52:32,004 I was, I was frightened. 908 00:52:32,004 --> 00:52:35,444 For sure, I was frightened, but I don't know. 909 00:52:35,444 --> 00:52:38,844 I don't have an answer to your answer, because I know people, 910 00:52:38,844 --> 00:52:41,804 survivors, who are traumatised, who live with trauma. 911 00:52:41,804 --> 00:52:43,724 I think my mother still lives with trauma. 912 00:52:43,724 --> 00:52:46,364 I was lucky when I arrived in France. 913 00:52:46,364 --> 00:52:48,884 The family, the French family that welcomed me, 914 00:52:48,884 --> 00:52:51,804 they immediately told me, you have to go and see a shrink. 915 00:52:51,804 --> 00:52:54,404 So since then, I've been seeing shrinks 916 00:52:54,404 --> 00:52:58,484 and I was lucky for that because I started taking care 917 00:52:58,484 --> 00:53:01,004 of my mental health. 918 00:53:01,004 --> 00:53:04,124 You know that word you hear people using, "closure," 919 00:53:04,124 --> 00:53:07,244 as if you can sort of deal with the, you know, 920 00:53:07,244 --> 00:53:10,164 we'll deal with that trauma and now we close the door, it's gone. 921 00:53:10,164 --> 00:53:12,564 It's closed, it's finished. It doesn't exist. 922 00:53:12,564 --> 00:53:15,284 I don't think you can, like, remove it. 923 00:53:15,284 --> 00:53:17,844 The sadness and the pain will always be there, 924 00:53:17,844 --> 00:53:20,804 but there has to be a space for it 925 00:53:20,804 --> 00:53:24,124 that doesn't take the whole space in your life. 926 00:53:24,124 --> 00:53:27,604 I suppose the lesson that I get from you 927 00:53:27,604 --> 00:53:30,204 is not to avoid it, 928 00:53:30,204 --> 00:53:32,404 is to confront it, to face it. 929 00:53:32,404 --> 00:53:35,964 You know, I like this idea of it's like a wild animal 930 00:53:35,964 --> 00:53:40,404 that you're going to... Tame it. Yeah. Yes. 931 00:53:40,404 --> 00:53:43,244 And then you're the one who is going to 932 00:53:43,244 --> 00:53:45,284 invite the memory. 933 00:53:45,284 --> 00:53:48,364 It's not invading you. You're inviting it. 934 00:53:48,364 --> 00:53:50,164 Wow, OK. 935 00:53:50,164 --> 00:53:53,324 But for that, you have to confront, I guess. 936 00:53:53,324 --> 00:53:55,484 And not everybody can do it. 937 00:54:02,964 --> 00:54:05,804 Beata is happily married with two sons 938 00:54:05,804 --> 00:54:09,644 and now helps people with mental health issues. 939 00:54:09,644 --> 00:54:14,524 You think of those who were killed and that you're still alive 940 00:54:14,524 --> 00:54:18,164 and then you have to make this life full of... 941 00:54:20,044 --> 00:54:25,404 ..life and of joy and do that for those who are not there, 942 00:54:25,404 --> 00:54:27,724 who are not there any more. 943 00:54:27,724 --> 00:54:32,084 And you think of all the goodness because within that nightmare 944 00:54:32,084 --> 00:54:37,324 and that chaos, there was still a little part of goodness 945 00:54:37,324 --> 00:54:40,204 with those people who'd helped us, who'd saved us. 946 00:54:40,204 --> 00:54:43,444 Just for them, we should be happy. 947 00:54:43,444 --> 00:54:45,644 So that they didn't do that, 948 00:54:45,644 --> 00:54:49,044 they didn't do that, that good for nothing. 949 00:54:50,764 --> 00:54:52,764 Point taken. 950 00:54:56,364 --> 00:54:59,404 I feel really, really tired, 951 00:54:59,404 --> 00:55:04,164 emotionally drained, but I'm so glad I did it. 952 00:55:04,164 --> 00:55:06,804 She's 18 years younger than me, 953 00:55:06,804 --> 00:55:08,764 but she feels a lot wiser 954 00:55:08,764 --> 00:55:12,084 and I think I can learn from 955 00:55:12,084 --> 00:55:15,244 what she said to me particularly about, you know, 956 00:55:15,244 --> 00:55:19,724 the need to make space, to not try and run away from the pain, 957 00:55:19,724 --> 00:55:23,484 to make space for other things besides it, which you know, 958 00:55:23,484 --> 00:55:27,844 can seem very self-evident and simple, but the thing about... 959 00:55:27,844 --> 00:55:30,484 I was hearing that from a genocide survivor, you know. 960 00:55:38,644 --> 00:55:43,244 Making this film is the hardest thing I've ever done 961 00:55:43,244 --> 00:55:47,764 in journalism, apart from Rwanda. 962 00:55:49,604 --> 00:55:51,444 Has it been worthwhile? 963 00:55:51,444 --> 00:55:56,404 If it's worthwhile, if it helps some people, 964 00:55:56,404 --> 00:56:00,964 if it shows them that you can have this, 965 00:56:00,964 --> 00:56:05,204 learn to live with it and have a bloody life. 966 00:56:06,844 --> 00:56:10,924 And know the most important thing of the lot, 967 00:56:10,924 --> 00:56:12,724 you're not alone. 968 00:56:14,164 --> 00:56:16,004 There's loads of us out there. 969 00:56:17,444 --> 00:56:18,844 And we can have each other's backs. 970 00:56:21,084 --> 00:56:23,284 Do you know that line from the Van Morrison song? 971 00:56:25,204 --> 00:56:28,484 "Ain't it all worthwhile when the healing has begun." 972 00:56:31,644 --> 00:56:35,084 Is that how you feel, Fergal? You think the healing has begun? 973 00:56:35,084 --> 00:56:38,684 It does feel like the healing has begun. 974 00:56:38,684 --> 00:56:41,204 Yeah, it does. 975 00:56:41,204 --> 00:56:43,204 Dalo. 976 00:56:43,204 --> 00:56:45,684 Come on, come on! 977 00:56:53,604 --> 00:56:57,844 CLIVE MYRIE: Tonight at ten, we're live in Ukraine, a country at war. 978 00:57:01,684 --> 00:57:05,604 A million people have now fled this country since the Russian 979 00:57:05,604 --> 00:57:09,204 invasion began, almost all of them are women and children. 980 00:57:09,204 --> 00:57:11,124 As Fergal Keane explains. 981 00:57:11,124 --> 00:57:13,084 TRAIN WHISTLE BLASTS 982 00:57:13,084 --> 00:57:16,124 They come from across the second biggest country in Europe 983 00:57:16,124 --> 00:57:17,404 after Russia. 984 00:57:17,404 --> 00:57:21,604 Saved by the railways that are this country's lifeline. 985 00:57:23,004 --> 00:57:25,044 It is war in my city. 986 00:57:25,044 --> 00:57:28,444 Children and I are scared of war, 987 00:57:28,444 --> 00:57:30,284 I don't like war. 988 00:57:33,164 --> 00:57:36,044 I flew home from Kyiv because I didn't want to be in a city 989 00:57:36,044 --> 00:57:38,084 that was under bombardment or shelling. 990 00:57:38,084 --> 00:57:40,284 I knew my nerves couldn't take that. 991 00:57:40,284 --> 00:57:42,844 And so I decided to come here, 992 00:57:42,844 --> 00:57:44,964 to Lviv in the far west 993 00:57:44,964 --> 00:57:47,604 of the country to report on the refugee crisis. 994 00:57:49,244 --> 00:57:52,484 I'm here because in the marrow of my bones, 995 00:57:52,484 --> 00:57:55,524 I'm a reporter and war is my subject, 996 00:57:55,524 --> 00:57:57,164 and I know it's damaged me. 997 00:57:58,964 --> 00:58:00,964 For years and years. 998 00:58:00,964 --> 00:58:04,164 And I rationalise it by saying, well, there's no bombing 999 00:58:04,164 --> 00:58:07,964 and shelling here, this is where people are coming for sanctuary. 1000 00:58:07,964 --> 00:58:12,804 But I am listening to stories of trauma every day and I don't feel 1001 00:58:12,804 --> 00:58:15,844 I have a right to talk about trauma when I look at the magnitude 1002 00:58:15,844 --> 00:58:17,844 of what people are going through here. 1003 00:58:17,844 --> 00:58:21,924 One of the things that I've learned through therapy for PTSD 1004 00:58:21,924 --> 00:58:23,724 is detachment. 1005 00:58:23,724 --> 00:58:26,924 Doesn't mean I'm a robot, course I'm not, 1006 00:58:26,924 --> 00:58:30,004 but I have been able to detach. 1007 00:58:31,084 --> 00:58:33,724 But this is a struggle inside me. 1008 00:58:35,524 --> 00:58:37,084 This is going on inside me. 1009 00:58:37,084 --> 00:58:38,764 It's not finished... 1010 00:58:40,004 --> 00:58:41,564 ..the story of me and PTSD. 1011 00:58:43,244 --> 00:58:44,764 Someday it will be 1012 00:58:44,764 --> 00:58:47,324 and, I hope, in a positive way. 1013 00:58:49,164 --> 00:58:51,604 But in the meantime, here I am.