1 00:00:00,900 --> 00:00:26,600 ♪♪ 2 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,766 -[ Drumming ] 3 00:00:28,766 --> 00:00:32,400 ♪♪ 4 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,300 -Do you consider this music as a weapon? 5 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:39,166 ♪♪ 6 00:00:39,166 --> 00:00:40,633 -You mean as a weapon in the fight 7 00:00:40,633 --> 00:00:42,533 against discrimination and things like that? 8 00:00:42,533 --> 00:00:44,833 -Yes. -Sometimes the music is used, 9 00:00:44,833 --> 00:00:49,133 say, to make people feel happy and joy, 10 00:00:49,133 --> 00:00:55,133 but on some occasions, we do use the music as a weapon 11 00:00:55,133 --> 00:00:58,700 against man's inhumanity toward man. 12 00:00:58,700 --> 00:01:02,466 -It is with great pleasure that I present to you 13 00:01:02,466 --> 00:01:05,000 Mr. Max Roach. 14 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,266 [ Cheers and applause ] 15 00:01:07,266 --> 00:01:09,733 -[ Drumming ] 16 00:01:09,733 --> 00:01:12,300 ♪♪ 17 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:15,500 Well, jazz is, to me, a nickname. 18 00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:18,933 To me, it's synonymous to "nigger" and things like that. 19 00:01:18,933 --> 00:01:20,133 That's not the proper name 20 00:01:20,133 --> 00:01:24,866 for African-American instrumental music. 21 00:01:24,866 --> 00:01:26,866 [ Drumming continues ] 22 00:01:26,866 --> 00:01:30,600 ♪♪ 23 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,166 It never was a name that we, as musicians, gave to it. 24 00:01:35,166 --> 00:01:37,833 It was a name that just was given to it. 25 00:01:37,833 --> 00:01:39,300 -So you're not a jazz musician? 26 00:01:39,300 --> 00:01:41,733 -No, I'm an African-American musician, 27 00:01:41,733 --> 00:01:45,766 and that's the kind of music that I play... 28 00:01:45,766 --> 00:01:48,433 or I attempt to play. 29 00:01:48,433 --> 00:01:50,966 -The Max Roach archive at the Library of Congress 30 00:01:50,966 --> 00:01:54,966 is extensive -- stills, audio recordings. 31 00:01:54,966 --> 00:01:56,466 Oh, I've seen this one already. 32 00:01:56,466 --> 00:01:59,633 He knew that to document his legacy would be very important. 33 00:01:59,633 --> 00:02:01,533 These are the '80s. -Mm-hmm. 34 00:02:01,533 --> 00:02:03,100 -Check this out. 35 00:02:03,100 --> 00:02:08,000 I began this film in 1987, so it's 35 years. 36 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,366 That's a long journey. 37 00:02:10,366 --> 00:02:14,433 In 1983, I was editing a documentary 38 00:02:14,433 --> 00:02:18,500 about the poet Langston Hughes, and one of the sequences 39 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:23,166 was Max performing to one of Langston Hughes' poems. 40 00:02:23,166 --> 00:02:26,266 -[ Drumming ] 41 00:02:26,266 --> 00:02:29,866 -Seeing Max Roach sit behind a drum set, 42 00:02:29,866 --> 00:02:31,966 he had a regal quality about him. 43 00:02:31,966 --> 00:02:34,400 It was like no wasted motion. 44 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,466 Just wonderful, man. 45 00:02:36,466 --> 00:02:40,900 And I remember saying, "Somebody should do a film on Max Roach." 46 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:43,533 [ Beep ] 47 00:02:43,533 --> 00:02:45,900 I had never directed anything. I was just an editor. 48 00:02:45,900 --> 00:02:49,666 But in 1987, I was able to do my first sit-down 49 00:02:49,666 --> 00:02:51,400 on-camera interview with Max at his house 50 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,033 up on Central Park West. 51 00:02:53,033 --> 00:02:57,400 -I got the cameras on me, and Sam is shooting, 52 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:58,466 telling us where to go, 53 00:02:58,466 --> 00:03:00,633 and Juan has got his camera on me now. 54 00:03:00,633 --> 00:03:03,866 -And we shot Max and his wonderful band M'Boom 55 00:03:03,866 --> 00:03:07,033 in the rehearsal session performing Monk's tunes. 56 00:03:07,033 --> 00:03:09,666 [ Mid-tempo tune plays ] 57 00:03:09,666 --> 00:03:16,933 ♪♪ 58 00:03:16,933 --> 00:03:20,233 And unbeknownst to me, Ben Shapiro, a fellow filmmaker, 59 00:03:20,233 --> 00:03:23,266 was doing audio recordings with Max Roach. 60 00:03:23,266 --> 00:03:24,600 Ben was a drummer, 61 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,400 and he had been studying Max's music and this book 62 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,866 that had many exercises that had Max's approach to the drums. 63 00:03:32,866 --> 00:03:37,300 -[ Drumming ] 64 00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:42,200 -The drum set itself, that is a uniquely American innovation. 65 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,300 -So I learned that as I was shooting Max Roach, 66 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:47,766 Ben was doing a long audio interview 67 00:03:47,766 --> 00:03:50,333 where Max documented his whole life story. 68 00:03:50,333 --> 00:03:54,366 -I'm into the whole political thing. 69 00:03:54,366 --> 00:03:58,033 To me, everything has that kind of meaning to it, you know? 70 00:03:58,033 --> 00:04:00,233 [ Drumming ] 71 00:04:00,233 --> 00:04:03,600 -Now after three decades, we're finishing this film 72 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,766 to tell the story of Max Roach. 73 00:04:07,733 --> 00:04:09,233 Ready? -Mm-hmm. 74 00:04:09,233 --> 00:04:10,366 -Thank you, Maxine, 75 00:04:10,366 --> 00:04:15,600 sitting down finally to do an interview. 76 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,633 How come, you think, in your opinion, 77 00:04:17,633 --> 00:04:20,800 that your dad's not as recognized today, 78 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,833 even in the 21st century, as Miles Davis is? 79 00:04:24,833 --> 00:04:26,833 -I think it's the path he took... 80 00:04:26,833 --> 00:04:30,033 [ Doorbell rings ] ...his life and politics. 81 00:04:30,033 --> 00:04:31,800 -Hi, there. How are you doing? -How are you? 82 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,600 And then maybe it's just the way we are trained to hear music. 83 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,833 You know, the drummer is not really supposed to be the lead, 84 00:04:39,833 --> 00:04:42,666 and he fought against that, and he created. 85 00:04:42,666 --> 00:04:48,000 You know, his drum inventions are just beautiful. 86 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,266 -[ Drumming ] 87 00:04:50,266 --> 00:05:02,533 ♪♪ 88 00:05:02,533 --> 00:05:05,633 -Max has this way of playing 89 00:05:05,633 --> 00:05:08,333 that seems so effortless. 90 00:05:08,333 --> 00:05:12,733 ♪♪ 91 00:05:12,733 --> 00:05:15,933 -[ Laughs ] But when you understand what it is, 92 00:05:15,933 --> 00:05:21,333 it's quite unique and it's... 93 00:05:21,333 --> 00:05:24,966 Yeah. It's deep. 94 00:05:24,966 --> 00:05:26,200 [ Camera shutter clicks ] 95 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:30,066 [ Camera shutter clicks ] 96 00:05:30,066 --> 00:05:37,166 ♪♪ 97 00:05:37,166 --> 00:05:39,533 -I guess from the very beginning, 98 00:05:39,533 --> 00:05:43,366 my aspirations were to be involved in music, 99 00:05:43,366 --> 00:05:47,266 and especially this music that we call jazz. 100 00:05:47,266 --> 00:05:50,366 -The music was the salvation. It was like sports is today. 101 00:05:50,366 --> 00:05:52,533 It's like basketball. That was it. 102 00:05:52,533 --> 00:05:55,700 We'd go to sit in the theaters on Saturdays all day 103 00:05:55,700 --> 00:06:00,666 with our lunch and watch these wonderful musicians. 104 00:06:00,666 --> 00:06:04,233 -My father bought me my first set of drums 105 00:06:04,233 --> 00:06:06,533 for graduating elementary school. 106 00:06:06,533 --> 00:06:08,633 That was the only gift I wanted. 107 00:06:08,633 --> 00:06:10,533 And I would set the drum up right 108 00:06:10,533 --> 00:06:14,133 so that when I got out of my bed in the mornings to go to school, 109 00:06:14,133 --> 00:06:16,933 my bed was the drum seat. 110 00:06:16,933 --> 00:06:20,266 So I would get up in the morning before I'd go to school 111 00:06:20,266 --> 00:06:23,333 and actually just sit at them drums and imagine 112 00:06:23,333 --> 00:06:26,366 that I was Papa Jo or Big Sidney Catlett. 113 00:06:26,366 --> 00:06:30,433 I couldn't play that early and couldn't wait to get home. 114 00:06:30,433 --> 00:06:32,300 Now this is 13, 14. -Right. 115 00:06:32,300 --> 00:06:35,900 -So after I finished whatever chores my family 116 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:39,233 had for me to do and finished my homework, 117 00:06:39,233 --> 00:06:40,866 just sit down and play them drums 118 00:06:40,866 --> 00:06:43,933 until it was -- until the neighbors would come to the door 119 00:06:43,933 --> 00:06:45,900 and say, "Well, Mrs. Roach, that boy is just making 120 00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:47,433 too much noise." 121 00:06:47,433 --> 00:06:49,600 [ Drumming ] 122 00:06:49,600 --> 00:07:01,166 ♪♪ 123 00:07:01,166 --> 00:07:03,100 But that kind of discipline, 124 00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:05,133 you become almost a fanatic to it 125 00:07:05,133 --> 00:07:06,900 after you get involved in it. 126 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:20,733 ♪♪ 127 00:07:20,733 --> 00:07:23,066 [ Applause ] 128 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,433 -And so once again, ladies and gentlemen, 129 00:07:27,433 --> 00:07:30,466 we take our WMCA microphones right down to the Royal Roost, 130 00:07:30,466 --> 00:07:31,800 bringing you the new sound, 131 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,933 Charlie Parker and the All-Stars -- 132 00:07:33,933 --> 00:07:38,100 Miles Davis on trumpet, the great Max Roach on drums. 133 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:41,400 -We started the so-called bebop movement. 134 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,200 We had a little coalition of folks, if you will -- 135 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,833 Dizzy and Charlie Parker, 136 00:07:46,833 --> 00:07:51,766 Bud Powell, Monk, and Miles. 137 00:07:51,766 --> 00:07:53,233 We all kind of clung together. 138 00:07:53,233 --> 00:07:55,966 For whatever reasons, we related to each other, 139 00:07:55,966 --> 00:07:58,333 and we hated to sleep. 140 00:07:58,333 --> 00:08:01,466 We would work from 9:00 till 9:00 the next morning 141 00:08:01,466 --> 00:08:04,300 in two different clubs. 142 00:08:04,300 --> 00:08:07,100 [ Up-tempo tune plays ] 143 00:08:07,100 --> 00:08:10,433 We would then go up to Dizzy's house on 7th Avenue 144 00:08:10,433 --> 00:08:13,733 and sit down and exchange ideas 145 00:08:13,733 --> 00:08:19,066 and talk about different musicians and analyze styles. 146 00:08:19,066 --> 00:08:21,833 -We were just young musicians. 147 00:08:21,833 --> 00:08:24,633 Wherever the music was, we would go. 148 00:08:24,633 --> 00:08:28,333 So I'd always go to Max's house and sit in the corner 149 00:08:28,333 --> 00:08:31,466 and watch and listen, 'cause he always had 150 00:08:31,466 --> 00:08:34,800 all the heavyweights there with this new music. 151 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,166 So one day, Max said, "Hey, Randy, 152 00:08:38,166 --> 00:08:40,566 play one of your songs for Charlie Parker." 153 00:08:40,566 --> 00:08:43,833 Man, Sam, I was like this, 154 00:08:43,833 --> 00:08:49,166 'cause Charlie Parker was not only a great musician, 155 00:08:49,166 --> 00:08:51,400 he was a powerful, spiritual human being. 156 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,800 Something about him was very sp-- I can't explain it. 157 00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:01,000 ♪♪ 158 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,900 -When Miles and I were working with Charlie Parker, 159 00:09:03,900 --> 00:09:06,433 his first piece would be his warm-up piece. 160 00:09:06,433 --> 00:09:09,833 It'd be the fastest thing we'd perform for that night. 161 00:09:09,833 --> 00:09:12,566 And it would just destroy Miles and myself. 162 00:09:12,566 --> 00:09:14,366 You know, I'd be puffing and blowing. 163 00:09:14,366 --> 00:09:16,400 Miles would be, you know, just -- 164 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,400 it would just reduce us to nothing. 165 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:19,833 He'd just breeze through it. 166 00:09:19,833 --> 00:09:24,533 And we would practice all day to get ready for this gentleman. 167 00:09:24,533 --> 00:09:27,200 I had a lot of freedom working with Charlie Parker. 168 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,300 He would just write one sheet of music for Miles. 169 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:32,466 He'd write a trumpet part. 170 00:09:32,466 --> 00:09:34,600 And he'd look over at me and just tell me 171 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,500 that I had freedom to do what I wanted to do. 172 00:09:37,500 --> 00:09:40,233 I would find my own way. 173 00:09:40,233 --> 00:09:44,766 [ Drumming ] 174 00:09:44,766 --> 00:09:48,100 -Early bebop just had that shock of the new. 175 00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:51,566 It was just something challenging, intimidating. 176 00:09:51,566 --> 00:09:53,366 You know, people just really couldn't figure out 177 00:09:53,366 --> 00:09:56,166 where you're supposed to pat your foot. 178 00:09:56,166 --> 00:09:59,800 [ Up-tempo tune plays ] 179 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,566 And all of that is by design, you know? 180 00:10:02,566 --> 00:10:05,333 Rhythmically, melodically, harmonically, 181 00:10:05,333 --> 00:10:08,033 they wanted to just get up in the music 182 00:10:08,033 --> 00:10:11,066 and then just start toying with every aspect of it. 183 00:10:11,066 --> 00:10:13,600 ♪♪ 184 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,666 There was a confrontational quality 185 00:10:15,666 --> 00:10:18,633 forcing the audience to receive them on their own terms. 186 00:10:18,633 --> 00:10:20,733 And, of course, it changed the content, 187 00:10:20,733 --> 00:10:25,333 the form, the virtuosity level of jazz forever. 188 00:10:25,333 --> 00:10:29,433 -It just blew my mind to hear music played 189 00:10:29,433 --> 00:10:33,300 as well as they did with this new flavor 190 00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:36,200 and new harmonic, and the speed. 191 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:42,100 ♪♪ 192 00:10:42,100 --> 00:10:44,700 -The first time I heard Bird's group, 193 00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:46,733 you know, it was interesting. 194 00:10:46,733 --> 00:10:48,033 I didn't dislike it, 195 00:10:48,033 --> 00:10:51,466 but eventually... 196 00:10:51,466 --> 00:10:54,000 I got what they were doing, you know? 197 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,933 Then I realized that this was the music for our generation, 198 00:10:58,933 --> 00:11:01,866 what Charlie Parker was doing and Max. 199 00:11:01,866 --> 00:11:04,900 -There was no other kind of music for me but that. 200 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:09,266 And night after night, Marlon Brando and myself 201 00:11:09,266 --> 00:11:11,433 and a couple of others just sit there 202 00:11:11,433 --> 00:11:14,566 and listen to one great genius after the other. 203 00:11:14,566 --> 00:11:18,366 ♪♪ 204 00:11:18,366 --> 00:11:22,200 Bebop wasn't just being sweet and joyous 205 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,233 like Louis Armstrong. 206 00:11:25,233 --> 00:11:28,533 It came by as an outraged expression 207 00:11:28,533 --> 00:11:29,900 of the time in which we lived, 208 00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:33,566 and it found great synergy with young Black people. 209 00:11:33,566 --> 00:11:36,433 ♪♪ 210 00:11:36,433 --> 00:11:40,900 -It was a new political feeling among the guys. 211 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:43,333 You know, this is right after the war, 212 00:11:43,333 --> 00:11:47,566 and Bird and Max and Miles 213 00:11:47,566 --> 00:11:49,200 exemplified that. 214 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,933 ♪♪ 215 00:11:53,933 --> 00:11:58,633 -I'm just so glad I came up with that kind of influence, 216 00:11:58,633 --> 00:12:01,600 because they were so progressive, 217 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,433 and the goal was to get jazz musicians 218 00:12:04,433 --> 00:12:07,166 so they did not just have to entertain. 219 00:12:07,166 --> 00:12:10,766 They wanted to be an artist just like Stravinsky. 220 00:12:10,766 --> 00:12:14,000 [ Down-tempo tune plays ] 221 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,866 ♪♪ 222 00:12:16,866 --> 00:12:21,066 -In the late '40s, most artists used something 223 00:12:21,066 --> 00:12:26,766 before they'd perform to give them that lift, 224 00:12:26,766 --> 00:12:30,433 and marijuana -- that was the big thing, 225 00:12:30,433 --> 00:12:34,333 and also cocaine, but cocaine might be, like, New Year's Eve. 226 00:12:34,333 --> 00:12:37,533 That was a rich man's drug. 227 00:12:37,533 --> 00:12:39,966 Then all of a sudden, the powers that be 228 00:12:39,966 --> 00:12:44,033 put out this drug that nobody ever heard of before. 229 00:12:44,033 --> 00:12:45,166 What's the difference? 230 00:12:45,166 --> 00:12:47,233 It doesn't smell, 231 00:12:47,233 --> 00:12:51,933 very cheap, gets you high, and nobody knows. 232 00:12:51,933 --> 00:12:54,100 Nobody knew what it was. 233 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:57,666 And they came with this heroin, and this thing spread. 234 00:12:57,666 --> 00:13:02,833 -And so you got in that stupid trend of everybody else, 235 00:13:02,833 --> 00:13:06,733 and that's what Trane and Miles and all of us did. 236 00:13:06,733 --> 00:13:09,233 But we weren't the only ones. 237 00:13:09,233 --> 00:13:11,566 Max had delved, too. 238 00:13:13,733 --> 00:13:16,500 -I was in a bad way as far as drugs 239 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:19,300 and other things were concerned. 240 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:22,033 I got in trouble, and I got locked up. 241 00:13:22,033 --> 00:13:24,833 And my mother came to get me out of jail. 242 00:13:24,833 --> 00:13:28,533 She did day work, and she scrubbed people's floors. 243 00:13:28,533 --> 00:13:30,200 And she came, she said, "You know, son, 244 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,066 I got calluses on my knees." 245 00:13:33,066 --> 00:13:35,933 And I thought she meant from scrubbing floors. 246 00:13:35,933 --> 00:13:38,533 So I said, "Mom, when I get out of this nonsense 247 00:13:38,533 --> 00:13:40,000 I'm in now, I'm gonna see to it 248 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,666 that you don't have to do that anymore." 249 00:13:41,666 --> 00:13:43,933 She said, "No, son, I'm not talking about working. 250 00:13:43,933 --> 00:13:46,000 I'm talking about praying. 251 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,933 I'm praying so hard for you to get your act together 252 00:13:49,933 --> 00:13:52,466 till my knees have calluses on them." 253 00:13:52,466 --> 00:13:57,000 And so I decided then I had to change my way of living. 254 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,733 I went to the hospital. 255 00:13:58,733 --> 00:14:01,900 The hospital that took me in was a Catholic hospital. 256 00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:04,066 And the next morning when I woke up, 257 00:14:04,066 --> 00:14:06,866 the sister came into my bed and said that I had a daughter. 258 00:14:06,866 --> 00:14:10,100 My wife was in the hospital, and Maxine was born. 259 00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:13,666 From that day on, my life began to straighten itself out 260 00:14:13,666 --> 00:14:16,433 as far as drugs and all the other things 261 00:14:16,433 --> 00:14:19,633 that were concerned. 262 00:14:19,633 --> 00:14:20,933 -Max, you were very well known 263 00:14:20,933 --> 00:14:22,533 because of the many great records you've made 264 00:14:22,533 --> 00:14:25,400 with both Charlie and Dizzy. 265 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,066 When did you form your own quintet? 266 00:14:28,066 --> 00:14:32,033 -This is about 1953 on the West Coast, 267 00:14:32,033 --> 00:14:36,500 and the great Clifford Brown, Harold Land, 268 00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:40,100 and Richie Powell and George Morrow. 269 00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:42,366 It was the first quintet 270 00:14:42,366 --> 00:14:46,533 that we made some records with that caught on, 271 00:14:46,533 --> 00:14:49,466 I would say, among the jazz public. 272 00:14:49,466 --> 00:15:03,500 ♪♪ 273 00:14:56,466 --> 00:15:03,500 ♪♪ 274 00:15:03,500 --> 00:15:13,500 ♪♪ 275 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:15,166 ♪♪ 276 00:15:15,166 --> 00:15:19,400 -The first time I saw Max Roach perform was in Chicago 277 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,666 at a new nightclub called the Beehive. 278 00:15:22,666 --> 00:15:25,266 ♪♪ 279 00:15:25,266 --> 00:15:27,066 It was Max and Clifford Brown, 280 00:15:27,066 --> 00:15:30,033 and one of my friends leaned over and said something. 281 00:15:30,033 --> 00:15:32,933 "Max is playing so loud I can't hear the rest of the guys." 282 00:15:32,933 --> 00:15:36,200 You know, and Clifford read his lips 283 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,000 and turned around and said something to Max, 284 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,333 and then Max immediately softened down. 285 00:15:42,333 --> 00:15:45,866 And I regarded Max as God, you know, 286 00:15:45,866 --> 00:15:48,600 and the fact that he could accept criticism 287 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,400 from someone that was younger than he showed me 288 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,800 what a sensitive musician he was in the first place, you know? 289 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:02,600 ♪♪ 290 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,300 -When I formed the group with Clifford Brown, of course, 291 00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:10,100 then I began to do things that I would do as a leader. 292 00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,000 I was responsible for the direction 293 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,800 that the group was going musically, et cetera. 294 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,433 And I had a chance then to develop the things 295 00:16:18,433 --> 00:16:23,166 I felt were important to what I wanted to do with the music. 296 00:16:23,166 --> 00:16:26,966 ♪♪ 297 00:16:26,966 --> 00:16:35,200 ♪♪ 298 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,433 -Beautiful. 299 00:16:37,433 --> 00:16:40,200 Max and Clifford Brown together? Incredible, man. 300 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:48,933 ♪♪ 301 00:16:48,933 --> 00:16:50,900 -Man, when we were kids in Philadelphia 302 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:52,300 and they used to come, 303 00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:54,033 and we would be there for every note, 304 00:16:54,033 --> 00:16:55,500 'cause it was Max leading 305 00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:59,666 one of the most exciting groups of our time, 306 00:16:59,666 --> 00:17:02,533 and Clifford was like a star out of nowhere. 307 00:17:02,533 --> 00:17:13,000 ♪♪ 308 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,366 -Brownie was one of the most complete musicians 309 00:17:16,366 --> 00:17:17,366 I had worked with. 310 00:17:17,366 --> 00:17:20,666 He could play drums, he played piano, 311 00:17:20,666 --> 00:17:23,433 and he was a good composer. 312 00:17:23,433 --> 00:17:25,433 We shared an apartment together. 313 00:17:25,433 --> 00:17:28,700 And I had a piano in it, so every morning 314 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:31,900 we'd wake up to see who would get to the piano first. 315 00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:35,166 ♪♪ 316 00:17:35,166 --> 00:17:36,600 The beginning of this story, 317 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,933 I had heard Clifford Brown originally on a record. 318 00:17:38,933 --> 00:17:42,266 I was in California at a place called the Lighthouse. 319 00:17:42,266 --> 00:17:45,533 I was there -- to go out there on a six-month contract. 320 00:17:45,533 --> 00:17:48,300 It was about 1951. 321 00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:52,266 I'll never forget Howard Rumsey riding me up and down 322 00:17:52,266 --> 00:17:55,266 this beautiful enclave on the Pacific Ocean 323 00:17:55,266 --> 00:17:58,066 out there in California, trying to find an apartment. 324 00:17:58,066 --> 00:18:00,833 John Levine owned the Lighthouse, 325 00:18:00,833 --> 00:18:05,100 so finally Mr. Levine said, "Listen, you know I'm Jewish, 326 00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:07,566 and I had to buy up half of the [bleep]damn town 327 00:18:07,566 --> 00:18:11,566 before I could get a place to live here." 328 00:18:11,566 --> 00:18:15,000 But I'd heard Clifford on the record with J.J. Johnson. 329 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,966 I'll never forget that record. 330 00:18:16,966 --> 00:18:19,500 I called him up, and he said, "Fine," you know. 331 00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:22,000 He was about 22 at that time. 332 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,966 And he had a great sense of humor. 333 00:18:23,966 --> 00:18:27,166 He never engaged in any kind of narcotics 334 00:18:27,166 --> 00:18:28,200 or anything like that. 335 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:29,933 Never even drank, in fact. 336 00:18:29,933 --> 00:18:33,366 I think one thing that he did do that I found out about 337 00:18:33,366 --> 00:18:35,633 after we had been together about a year 338 00:18:35,633 --> 00:18:37,766 was he loved to play the horses. 339 00:18:37,766 --> 00:18:39,666 [ Laughter ] 340 00:18:39,666 --> 00:18:43,900 Now, that was a contradiction to such a clean living. 341 00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:45,600 -At the Rouge Lounge all this week 342 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,400 is one of the great jazz groups in the country today, 343 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,633 and that's the Max Roach Cliff Brown Ensemble, 344 00:18:49,633 --> 00:18:51,733 and with us tonight is one of the outstanding 345 00:18:51,733 --> 00:18:53,266 jazz trumpeters in the country today, 346 00:18:53,266 --> 00:18:55,666 EmArcy recording star Clifford Brown. 347 00:18:55,666 --> 00:18:57,833 [ Up-tempo tune plays ] 348 00:18:57,833 --> 00:19:04,400 ♪♪ 349 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,133 -Soft power. 350 00:19:08,866 --> 00:19:12,100 Beautiful, exquisite tone, 351 00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:16,466 but yet it was this controlled power. 352 00:19:16,466 --> 00:19:21,133 Unsurpassed ability to handle that trumpet. 353 00:19:21,133 --> 00:19:34,066 ♪♪ 354 00:19:34,066 --> 00:19:35,900 -So Max got that group, 355 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:39,366 and that group really took a hold of the public. 356 00:19:39,366 --> 00:19:43,500 Then it went up another notch when Harold Land left the group 357 00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:45,966 and Sonny Rollins took his place. 358 00:19:45,966 --> 00:19:50,866 -On the tenor saxophone, the guy who brings us all up here 359 00:19:50,866 --> 00:19:53,700 the most pleasure -- Sonny Rollins. 360 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:56,600 [ Applause ] 361 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,266 The man behind the drum, 362 00:19:58,266 --> 00:20:01,733 undoubtedly the world's greatest -- Max Roach. 363 00:20:01,733 --> 00:20:04,133 [ Applause ] 364 00:20:05,933 --> 00:20:08,833 I play the trumpet. My name is Clifford Brown. 365 00:20:08,833 --> 00:20:10,700 [ Applause ] 366 00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:13,700 [ Up-tempo tune plays ] 367 00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:49,100 ♪♪ 368 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:53,133 -If you have a Clifford Brown and a Sonny Rollins, 369 00:20:53,133 --> 00:20:55,100 that's a heck of a group. 370 00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:58,166 So you write accordingly, and you give them so much 371 00:20:58,166 --> 00:21:00,233 and they take it to another level. 372 00:21:00,233 --> 00:21:18,266 ♪♪ 373 00:21:18,266 --> 00:21:23,100 -Okay. Wow. Boy, I haven't heard that in 5 million years. 374 00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:26,233 That band was really going strong. 375 00:21:26,233 --> 00:21:28,700 Max Roach Clifford Brown Band, 376 00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:30,700 or Clifford Brown Max Roach Band. 377 00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:33,866 It didn't matter, because they were that cool 378 00:21:33,866 --> 00:21:35,766 about ego and all this stuff. 379 00:21:35,766 --> 00:21:38,900 With them, it didn't matter. 380 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:40,866 -The relationship we had was something like 381 00:21:40,866 --> 00:21:43,400 nothing I'd ever experienced before. 382 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,900 We respected and loved each other, 383 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:47,200 and it was really like a family. 384 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,800 We protected each other. 385 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,200 And they all listened to me because I was the oldest. 386 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,033 -Everybody had their own music, 387 00:21:54,033 --> 00:21:56,233 but, you know, the concept of the band, 388 00:21:56,233 --> 00:21:58,500 as far as I can see, was Max Roach. 389 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,900 Max Roach was really the figure. 390 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:05,533 His drum style and everything 391 00:22:05,533 --> 00:22:08,766 was what the band was about, really. 392 00:22:08,766 --> 00:22:13,600 Plus, he was a god before I played with him. 393 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,566 Yeah, he was a great drummer, but then everybody knew Max 394 00:22:16,566 --> 00:22:20,700 as sort of a big celebrity in the Black community. 395 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:24,500 I mean, it wasn't just the music community we knew him, 396 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:27,800 but he then became like a movie star. 397 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,633 -Go, Max! 398 00:22:29,633 --> 00:22:32,900 -[ Drumming ] 399 00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:38,433 -The guys that were top drummers were Art Blakey and Max Roach. 400 00:22:38,433 --> 00:22:42,433 So Art Blakey was more the elemental guy. 401 00:22:42,433 --> 00:22:44,266 I mean, when you go back to Africa, 402 00:22:44,266 --> 00:22:47,333 did those guys study how to read music, anything? 403 00:22:47,333 --> 00:22:49,400 No. They had it. 404 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,333 They have that -- that thing. 405 00:22:53,333 --> 00:22:55,433 Max had that, 406 00:22:55,433 --> 00:23:01,966 but he was also a more finessed, polished drummer. 407 00:23:01,966 --> 00:23:06,133 To me, his drum style was like heaven. 408 00:23:06,133 --> 00:23:08,066 Playing with Max was like heaven. 409 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,633 When you play, somebody's got to answer you. 410 00:23:15,633 --> 00:23:18,300 And when they play, you've got to answer them. 411 00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:19,466 Bam, you answer me. 412 00:23:19,466 --> 00:23:22,166 Oh, right, then I can do something else. 413 00:23:22,166 --> 00:23:24,766 That's why I say Max is heavenly, 414 00:23:24,766 --> 00:23:28,400 because he's feeding me. 415 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,166 He's making me think of something to play. 416 00:23:31,166 --> 00:23:35,266 He's playing something that makes me want to play. 417 00:23:35,266 --> 00:23:37,033 You see what I mean? 418 00:23:37,033 --> 00:23:47,500 ♪♪ 419 00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:49,233 -Max Roach Clifford Brown Group, 420 00:23:49,233 --> 00:23:51,366 recording-wise and performance-wise, 421 00:23:51,366 --> 00:23:54,033 they were all over the country. 422 00:23:54,033 --> 00:23:55,500 -And we were off. That was it. 423 00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:58,733 We worked like -- we could work 52 weeks a year. 424 00:23:58,733 --> 00:24:00,200 It was amazing. 425 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,333 Just a moment that presented itself. 426 00:24:02,333 --> 00:24:04,533 We stayed eight weeks in St. Louis, 427 00:24:04,533 --> 00:24:07,300 eight weeks in Chicago, come out to the West Coast 428 00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,066 and open a club for four weeks. 429 00:24:10,066 --> 00:24:12,333 We were doing very, very well 430 00:24:12,333 --> 00:24:13,866 traveling up and down this country. 431 00:24:13,866 --> 00:24:16,466 And Brownie drove a car, and I drove a car. 432 00:24:16,466 --> 00:24:18,833 ♪♪ 433 00:24:18,833 --> 00:24:24,100 -We had to stay in some funky hotels. 434 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:27,566 And I don't like funky hotels. 435 00:24:27,566 --> 00:24:32,966 Broken-down hotels which were in the neighborhood, 436 00:24:32,966 --> 00:24:36,100 Black neighborhood. 437 00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:39,366 -When African-Americans came back from the Second World War, 438 00:24:39,366 --> 00:24:44,333 a lot of us expected a change in how African people were treated. 439 00:24:44,333 --> 00:24:47,466 But in the '50s, nothing had changed. 440 00:24:47,466 --> 00:24:50,833 Jim Crow, racism -- it was all there. 441 00:24:50,833 --> 00:24:54,300 -Restaurants -- you could go in restaurants 442 00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:55,900 and you couldn't sit down and eat. 443 00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:59,466 You know, you could take some out, take it out. 444 00:24:59,466 --> 00:25:02,100 They'd stand there and take the food and go out 445 00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:04,300 and take it in your car or in the bus 446 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:07,800 or whatever we had to travel in. 447 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,500 I went through that era. 448 00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:12,300 And that's -- You know, it's horrible, man. 449 00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:15,466 You know, you can't sit down in a restaurant? 450 00:25:15,466 --> 00:25:18,800 Come on. What am I gonna do? 451 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,933 -So it was tough being a Black musician back then? 452 00:25:20,933 --> 00:25:22,800 -Oh, definitely. 453 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,666 -He did tell me once that he was stopped by the police 454 00:25:27,666 --> 00:25:29,766 in New Jersey, and the police said, 455 00:25:29,766 --> 00:25:32,266 "If you're a musician, play something for us." 456 00:25:32,266 --> 00:25:33,933 [ Chuckles ] And my father threw his drumsticks 457 00:25:33,933 --> 00:25:37,333 at the police officer, and said, "Mother[bleep] you play." 458 00:25:37,333 --> 00:25:41,266 You know, and that didn't turn out well. 459 00:25:41,266 --> 00:25:44,800 But he said something which moved me so much 460 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,300 about that period. 461 00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:50,533 He said that if he didn't have the drums, 462 00:25:50,533 --> 00:25:52,733 he would have picked up guns. 463 00:25:52,733 --> 00:26:06,900 ♪♪ 464 00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:10,333 -We were playing in front of people that, 465 00:26:10,333 --> 00:26:14,700 whatever else they had to go through in life, 466 00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:16,566 they needed their music, 467 00:26:16,566 --> 00:26:20,200 and they needed the guys that gave it to them, 468 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,833 and we were those people. 469 00:26:22,833 --> 00:26:26,866 It was great. It was like an honor. 470 00:26:26,866 --> 00:26:28,966 -Yeah. -You know? 471 00:26:31,833 --> 00:26:34,100 -Now it's our pleasure to present Clifford Brown, 472 00:26:34,100 --> 00:26:36,433 playing for you "Tenderly." 473 00:26:36,433 --> 00:26:39,533 [ Down-tempo tune plays ] 474 00:26:39,533 --> 00:27:19,166 ♪♪ 475 00:26:59,300 --> 00:27:19,166 ♪♪ 476 00:27:19,166 --> 00:27:23,400 -The Max Roach Clifford Brown Group was performing 477 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,133 at the Showboat in Philadelphia. 478 00:27:27,133 --> 00:27:29,000 That night they were gonna get in the car 479 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,400 and go to Pittsburgh, I think it was. 480 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,133 Max didn't go that night. 481 00:27:33,133 --> 00:27:34,966 He was gonna go the next night 482 00:27:34,966 --> 00:27:37,066 and meet them there or something. 483 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,700 But Clifford and Richard Powell, the piano player, 484 00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:44,233 Nancy -- I didn't know her last name, 485 00:27:44,233 --> 00:27:47,433 but she and Richard had just gotten married -- 486 00:27:47,433 --> 00:27:49,500 they got in the car together, 487 00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:52,300 those three got on the turnpike, 488 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:53,633 and that's when they had the accident 489 00:27:53,633 --> 00:27:55,666 on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, 490 00:27:55,666 --> 00:27:57,633 and all of them died. 491 00:27:57,633 --> 00:28:03,333 ♪♪ 492 00:28:03,333 --> 00:28:04,900 -I was at a session. 493 00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:09,900 We got a call that Clifford was in a car 494 00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:12,533 with Bud Powell's brother and his girlfriend, 495 00:28:12,533 --> 00:28:15,233 and it was raining. 496 00:28:15,233 --> 00:28:19,200 Clifford was laying down in the back seat, 497 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:25,000 and the truck hit them, cut his body in half at 25. 498 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,433 Got killed. 499 00:28:27,433 --> 00:28:30,633 Imagine what would happen if he'd lived to 50. 500 00:28:30,633 --> 00:28:32,766 Boy, he was something else. 501 00:28:32,766 --> 00:28:37,233 -Gee, this is -- this is hard for me to try to recount, man, 502 00:28:37,233 --> 00:28:43,000 because it was such a... 503 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,166 a bad day. 504 00:28:45,166 --> 00:28:47,133 It's just a lesson in life. 505 00:28:47,133 --> 00:28:50,466 You learn a little bit about life, 506 00:28:50,466 --> 00:28:55,666 because Brownie was like a -- was like a little angel. 507 00:28:55,666 --> 00:28:57,433 You know, that was like an angel. 508 00:28:57,433 --> 00:29:01,200 How could something happen to Brownie? 509 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,200 And when that happened, of course, everybody was... 510 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,966 You know, we was crying like babies, all of us. 511 00:29:09,966 --> 00:29:35,633 ♪♪ 512 00:29:35,633 --> 00:29:38,833 -Clifford -- he was a joy to work with. 513 00:29:38,833 --> 00:29:43,533 That particular ingredient that we find in people 514 00:29:43,533 --> 00:29:46,166 that we all say, "Well, he's a genius," 515 00:29:46,166 --> 00:29:50,766 and at such a young age to have done so much musically 516 00:29:50,766 --> 00:29:53,433 and to have contributed so much, 517 00:29:53,433 --> 00:29:55,900 it was one of the high points of my life. 518 00:29:55,900 --> 00:30:04,133 ♪♪ 519 00:30:04,133 --> 00:30:06,933 [ Applause ] 520 00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:10,700 -Max suffered. 521 00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,533 Max suffered, man. 522 00:30:13,533 --> 00:30:14,866 Max really suffered. 523 00:30:14,866 --> 00:30:19,266 Max was getting -- Max had gotten to the point -- 524 00:30:19,266 --> 00:30:21,766 and I don't know if this has even 525 00:30:21,766 --> 00:30:24,400 ever been spoken about, but... 526 00:30:26,533 --> 00:30:29,033 I wonder, shouldIspeak about it now, 527 00:30:29,033 --> 00:30:33,000 as a matter of fact, because it's so personal. 528 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,433 But Max suffered. I can say that. 529 00:30:35,433 --> 00:30:38,200 He really took it hard, man. 530 00:30:39,766 --> 00:30:45,466 It really took Max a while to... 531 00:30:45,466 --> 00:30:47,333 to bounce back from that. 532 00:30:47,333 --> 00:30:49,700 You know, it was rough. 533 00:30:53,833 --> 00:30:56,566 [ Down-tempo piano tune plays ] 534 00:30:56,566 --> 00:31:01,733 ♪♪ 535 00:31:01,733 --> 00:31:06,033 -♪ When that ship began to sail ♪ 536 00:31:10,266 --> 00:31:14,300 ♪ It was like a bird without a tail ♪ 537 00:31:18,466 --> 00:31:23,400 ♪ And when that bird began to fly ♪ 538 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,433 ♪ It was like an eagle in the sky ♪ 539 00:31:35,366 --> 00:31:39,433 ♪ And when the sky began to roar ♪ 540 00:31:43,833 --> 00:31:47,633 ♪ It was like a lion at the door ♪ 541 00:31:51,966 --> 00:31:56,433 ♪ And when the door began to crack ♪ 542 00:31:59,666 --> 00:32:04,633 ♪ 'Twas like a stick across my back ♪ 543 00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:13,066 ♪ And when my back began to smart ♪ 544 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,333 ♪ It was like a penknife in my heart ♪ 545 00:32:23,766 --> 00:32:27,933 ♪ And when my heart ♪ 546 00:32:27,933 --> 00:32:31,866 ♪ Began to bleed ♪ 547 00:32:35,633 --> 00:32:38,400 ♪ 'Twas death ♪ 548 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:44,500 ♪ And death indeed ♪ 549 00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:52,233 ♪♪ 550 00:32:52,233 --> 00:32:56,233 -When Clifford Brown died, everything altered. 551 00:32:56,233 --> 00:33:00,100 And my mother said that after the accident, 552 00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:06,666 my father was just screaming against God. 553 00:33:06,666 --> 00:33:10,400 It was a pivotal breakdown, you know, 554 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,233 of all the dreams and hopes for himself and his family. 555 00:33:14,233 --> 00:33:17,233 And then soon after that, they were divorced. 556 00:33:17,233 --> 00:33:19,533 You know, there were five years after that 557 00:33:19,533 --> 00:33:23,600 that we saw our father not often. 558 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,266 -After Clifford died, that shattered him. 559 00:33:28,266 --> 00:33:33,833 He would talk about how he went into an alcohol binge, 560 00:33:33,833 --> 00:33:36,866 and that life was hard. 561 00:33:36,866 --> 00:33:41,533 But that anger he felt from his head to his toes, 562 00:33:41,533 --> 00:33:43,300 when it came out. 563 00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:46,166 -He had a temper. 564 00:33:46,166 --> 00:33:51,300 And he was able to... 565 00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:54,366 funnel that temper into his music, ultimately. 566 00:33:54,366 --> 00:33:58,033 But if he wasn't doing that, you could be -- it could be -- 567 00:33:58,033 --> 00:34:02,133 When you're downwind of it, it can be devastating. 568 00:34:02,133 --> 00:34:05,733 -We were scheduled to perform 569 00:34:05,733 --> 00:34:08,666 at the Pep's Showbar in Philadelphia. 570 00:34:08,666 --> 00:34:11,766 [ Up-tempo tune plays ] 571 00:34:11,766 --> 00:34:14,900 Max's drums were behind me, 572 00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:19,366 and in the middle of my solo, the drums stop. 573 00:34:19,366 --> 00:34:21,266 So I kind of look behind me, 574 00:34:21,266 --> 00:34:25,566 and Max was climbing over the drums, 575 00:34:25,566 --> 00:34:29,300 coming toward me with a look on his face 576 00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:33,600 that made me put my trombone down 577 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,966 and get ready for this onslaught that was on its way. 578 00:34:37,966 --> 00:34:40,733 And then we wrestle. 579 00:34:40,733 --> 00:34:44,300 And Max has been in this psychological turmoil 580 00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:45,700 that he was in. 581 00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:48,433 It was something that I couldn't fault him. 582 00:34:48,433 --> 00:34:51,133 -He made missteps. 583 00:34:51,133 --> 00:34:54,066 With his family, he made missteps. 584 00:34:54,066 --> 00:34:56,433 With his music, he made missteps. 585 00:34:56,433 --> 00:35:01,600 But when I look at my father's life, 586 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:08,433 there were pivotal people who he allowed in 587 00:35:08,433 --> 00:35:11,566 to rescue him, in a way. 588 00:35:11,566 --> 00:35:13,966 [ Mid-tempo tune plays ] 589 00:35:13,966 --> 00:35:19,900 -♪ There's a land of milk and honey ♪ 590 00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:23,466 -This beautiful young lady is very special to me -- 591 00:35:23,466 --> 00:35:26,300 Abbey Lincoln, the voice of our group. 592 00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:30,066 -♪ Every day ♪ 593 00:35:30,066 --> 00:35:33,666 ♪ It's bright and sunny ♪ 594 00:35:33,666 --> 00:35:36,033 -She was a star when I met her. 595 00:35:36,033 --> 00:35:37,900 She was very young. 596 00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:40,333 Everything seemed to come natural for Abbey. 597 00:35:40,333 --> 00:35:43,766 She was always herself. 598 00:35:43,766 --> 00:35:45,066 -I didn't know who he was. 599 00:35:45,066 --> 00:35:47,833 I didn't know anything about bebop. 600 00:35:47,833 --> 00:35:49,766 But, anyway, they told him that he should come and see me, 601 00:35:49,766 --> 00:35:51,666 and he did. 602 00:35:51,666 --> 00:35:55,766 And he was very attentive and wonderful. 603 00:35:55,766 --> 00:35:58,633 We had a lot of fun. 604 00:35:58,633 --> 00:36:02,966 And then when it came time for him to sign the check, 605 00:36:02,966 --> 00:36:06,900 I was impressed because his concentration was something 606 00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:08,366 I had never really witnessed before. 607 00:36:08,366 --> 00:36:11,366 He was suddenly gone from where we were, 608 00:36:11,366 --> 00:36:13,700 and he was concentrating on the check. 609 00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:16,700 And I noticed his hands, 610 00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:18,566 and I thought, "What a beautiful man." 611 00:36:18,566 --> 00:36:21,100 ♪ Spread the word, spread the gospel ♪ 612 00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:24,966 ♪ Let the congregation know that a cornet ♪ 613 00:36:24,966 --> 00:36:28,400 ♪ Was the downfall of the walls of Jericho ♪ 614 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,833 I was working supper clubs 615 00:36:30,833 --> 00:36:34,300 and wearing this dress [chuckles] 616 00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:35,733 and bouncing on the stage 617 00:36:35,733 --> 00:36:39,233 so my breasts would jiggle a little. 618 00:36:39,233 --> 00:36:41,766 It wasn't funny to me, though. 619 00:36:41,766 --> 00:36:43,800 I've always taken myself seriously, 620 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,700 so it wasn't easy to make light of my life like that. 621 00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:51,833 And I saw Max Roach again, and he said to me, 622 00:36:51,833 --> 00:36:54,666 "You don't have to do that. 623 00:36:54,666 --> 00:36:58,900 Come here. You don't have to do that." 624 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:01,466 And he started to teach me, 625 00:37:01,466 --> 00:37:03,800 and he started to take care of me. 626 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,500 All I had to do was what he said. 627 00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:10,766 [ Laughs ] 628 00:37:10,766 --> 00:37:13,966 I was pretty good at that. 629 00:37:13,966 --> 00:37:16,133 After a while, though, my independent spirit 630 00:37:16,133 --> 00:37:18,900 wouldn't allow it. 631 00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:20,466 But he helped me. 632 00:37:20,466 --> 00:37:22,833 He saved my life, 633 00:37:22,833 --> 00:37:24,833 because I was lost. 634 00:37:24,833 --> 00:37:26,566 I really was. 635 00:37:26,566 --> 00:37:32,633 ♪♪ 636 00:37:32,633 --> 00:37:36,266 I brought to the relationship my experiences 637 00:37:36,266 --> 00:37:39,633 as somebody who worked in show business. 638 00:37:39,633 --> 00:37:44,866 And he brought to me the approach of the artist. 639 00:37:44,866 --> 00:37:46,700 But the collaboration was wonderful, 640 00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:50,333 because for the first time, it was a Black man and woman. 641 00:37:50,333 --> 00:37:53,400 [ Mid-tempo tune plays ] 642 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,300 -Well, Abbey, besides being one of the world's 643 00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:57,000 most beautiful women, 644 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,400 is an exceptionally talented human being. 645 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,700 Of course, she's not only a fine singer, 646 00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:05,866 but she's a poet and a playwright, 647 00:38:05,866 --> 00:38:08,633 and we all know she's an actress, you see. 648 00:38:08,633 --> 00:38:12,033 She has helped me a great deal 649 00:38:12,033 --> 00:38:15,300 to -- to write more 650 00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:19,733 and to engage myself in the theater 651 00:38:19,733 --> 00:38:23,066 on a musical level, you see. 652 00:38:23,066 --> 00:38:27,966 -♪ Ain't you got no sweet love in you ♪ 653 00:38:27,966 --> 00:38:31,500 ♪ My, how you carry on ♪ 654 00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:35,400 ♪ Ohhhh ♪ 655 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,866 Strange, but having met Max 656 00:38:40,866 --> 00:38:44,966 seemed to point up things for me. 657 00:38:44,966 --> 00:38:47,566 I had a chance to find out what made me tick. 658 00:38:47,566 --> 00:38:50,400 ♪♪ 659 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,233 ♪ Ain't you got no sweet love in you? ♪ 660 00:38:55,233 --> 00:39:03,200 ♪ My, how you carry on ♪ 661 00:38:59,133 --> 00:39:03,200 ♪ My, how you carry on ♪ 662 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:08,266 ♪ My, how you do ♪ 663 00:39:08,266 --> 00:39:17,166 ♪ You do carry on ♪ 664 00:39:17,166 --> 00:39:24,333 ♪♪ 665 00:39:24,333 --> 00:39:26,633 -Ethnically speaking, you know, it was like 666 00:39:26,633 --> 00:39:31,233 we looked up to them as the shining example, you know? 667 00:39:31,233 --> 00:39:34,466 -They both were so talented, 668 00:39:34,466 --> 00:39:41,166 so aware of who they were, where they were, 669 00:39:41,166 --> 00:39:45,666 the conditions that were impacting their goals. 670 00:39:45,666 --> 00:39:50,200 -Max and Abbey had a chance to make their statement, 671 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,533 and it was needed. 672 00:39:52,533 --> 00:39:53,933 It was needed. 673 00:39:53,933 --> 00:39:55,266 I'm glad it turned out 674 00:39:55,266 --> 00:39:59,466 pretty successful as a record, you know? 675 00:39:59,466 --> 00:40:02,633 [ Tambourine rattling ] 676 00:40:02,633 --> 00:40:07,433 -♪ Ain't but two things on my mind ♪ 677 00:40:07,433 --> 00:40:12,100 ♪ Driva' man and quittin' time ♪ 678 00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:15,966 ♪ Driva' man the kind of boss ♪ 679 00:40:15,966 --> 00:40:19,866 ♪ Ride a man and lead a horse ♪ 680 00:40:19,866 --> 00:40:23,966 ♪ When his cat o' nine tail fly ♪ 681 00:40:23,966 --> 00:40:27,800 ♪ You be happy just to die ♪ 682 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,666 ♪ Run away and you'll be found ♪ 683 00:40:31,666 --> 00:40:35,566 ♪ By his big old red bone hound ♪ 684 00:40:35,566 --> 00:40:39,333 ♪ Pateroller bring you back ♪ 685 00:40:39,333 --> 00:40:43,233 ♪ Make you sorry you is Black ♪ 686 00:40:43,233 --> 00:40:47,300 ♪ Driva' man, he made a life ♪ 687 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:51,200 ♪ But a Mamie ain't his wife ♪ 688 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,066 ♪ Ain't but two things on my mind ♪ 689 00:40:55,066 --> 00:40:59,100 ♪ Driva' man and quittin' time ♪ 690 00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:02,666 -I became an advocate, I guess, politically speaking. 691 00:41:02,666 --> 00:41:04,800 We thought the country was gonna change 692 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,966 and things were gonna be better in education 693 00:41:07,966 --> 00:41:11,000 and labor and equality and all this. 694 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:12,533 It was like that dream 695 00:41:12,533 --> 00:41:15,433 that everybody was hoping would happen. 696 00:41:17,566 --> 00:41:21,400 So I got caught up in it intellectually, emotionally, 697 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,700 and musically. 698 00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:28,900 Since I had the stage and I was recording, 699 00:41:28,900 --> 00:41:31,133 if I could say something, I said it, 700 00:41:31,133 --> 00:41:34,400 whether it was through my music or whatever, 701 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,500 because I have a stake in this country as well as anybody else. 702 00:41:43,166 --> 00:41:48,066 -As a young kid, I would play with my parents' records. 703 00:41:48,066 --> 00:41:50,333 I would just pull the records out 704 00:41:50,333 --> 00:41:51,933 and look at all the amazing images, 705 00:41:51,933 --> 00:41:53,333 black-and-white images 706 00:41:53,333 --> 00:41:55,733 in particular, and also sometimes abstract art, 707 00:41:55,733 --> 00:41:57,933 'cause in certain record stores 708 00:41:57,933 --> 00:41:59,666 where people might have been racist, 709 00:41:59,666 --> 00:42:03,533 it'd be better to put just a piece of art on the cover 710 00:42:03,533 --> 00:42:07,166 as opposed to these Black men that are just making music. 711 00:42:07,166 --> 00:42:09,433 And there was one record in particular 712 00:42:09,433 --> 00:42:13,333 that really fascinated me 713 00:42:13,333 --> 00:42:15,900 and kind of disturbed me, 714 00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:18,566 and this record was "We Insist!" 715 00:42:18,566 --> 00:42:21,300 the Max Roach "Freedom Now Suite." 716 00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:24,200 You see these brothers looking serious, turned, 717 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,433 looking at the camera, at the viewer, 718 00:42:26,433 --> 00:42:28,333 and behind them is a white guy. 719 00:42:28,333 --> 00:42:31,100 Clearly, he wasn't trying to serve them. 720 00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:33,466 And what my parents would explain to me 721 00:42:33,466 --> 00:42:37,166 was that's a protest going on at a lunch counter. 722 00:42:37,166 --> 00:42:39,133 Like, we are demanding the right 723 00:42:39,133 --> 00:42:41,433 to be able to come into this establishment. 724 00:42:41,433 --> 00:42:44,033 We insist on these rights. 725 00:42:44,033 --> 00:42:45,400 And later when I would grow up, 726 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,866 I would learn that this was what many people consider 727 00:42:47,866 --> 00:42:52,000 one of America's first official protest records. 728 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,533 -Idea of the whole piece was to trace from Africa, 729 00:42:56,533 --> 00:43:00,700 across the Atlantic, in chains to the plantations, 730 00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:04,566 and then the fight for freedom. 731 00:43:04,566 --> 00:43:07,066 -Even today, a lot of people, even African-Americans, 732 00:43:07,066 --> 00:43:09,800 they don't want to hear about slavery or whatever. 733 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,366 It's like, that's a long time ago. 734 00:43:11,366 --> 00:43:13,133 Let's just be cool and whatever. 735 00:43:13,133 --> 00:43:18,033 But to celebrate our people having gone through that 736 00:43:18,033 --> 00:43:21,033 and surviving that and still having a lot of spirit, 737 00:43:21,033 --> 00:43:24,833 to create, like, a whole musical theme and statement about that 738 00:43:24,833 --> 00:43:27,400 is just brave, I think. 739 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,966 -I was very proud to have been a part of that. 740 00:43:31,966 --> 00:43:35,133 It was a learning experience for me, 741 00:43:35,133 --> 00:43:37,066 because up to that point, 742 00:43:37,066 --> 00:43:38,566 I was more interested in performing. 743 00:43:38,566 --> 00:43:41,166 I was interested in playing some bebop. 744 00:43:41,166 --> 00:43:45,566 [ Laughs ] And it was wonderful, you know. 745 00:43:45,566 --> 00:43:48,433 It gave me purpose. 746 00:43:48,433 --> 00:43:51,566 -Max was very conscious about his Blackness 747 00:43:51,566 --> 00:43:56,200 and was very much into uniting Black Americans 748 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,200 with the African nation. 749 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,766 He felt socially responsible to educate people 750 00:44:02,766 --> 00:44:04,700 about the things that he knew. 751 00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:09,500 And that's the Max that I knew. 752 00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:11,533 -Yeah, the "Freedom Now Suite"... 753 00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:15,666 Yeah. I don't think -- 754 00:44:15,666 --> 00:44:19,366 Has anything been done like that since? 755 00:44:19,366 --> 00:44:22,666 [ Mid-tempo tune plays ] 756 00:44:22,666 --> 00:44:26,733 -♪ Eeeee ♪ 757 00:44:26,733 --> 00:44:32,233 ♪ Oooooooh ♪ 758 00:44:34,266 --> 00:44:41,966 ♪ I-eeeeeeeeee ♪ 759 00:44:41,966 --> 00:44:44,800 -This particular piece, "Tears for Johannesburg," 760 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,033 was to commemorate the memory 761 00:44:48,033 --> 00:44:51,933 of all those young people who were killed in Johannesburg 762 00:44:51,933 --> 00:44:56,933 during the military insurrection on the students. 763 00:44:56,933 --> 00:44:59,266 -♪ I-eeeee ♪ 764 00:44:59,266 --> 00:45:03,766 -And so that piece was dedicated to them. 765 00:45:03,766 --> 00:45:08,700 -Even before the Civil Rights and Black Power movements 766 00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:11,366 and Panthers and all those folks made this connection 767 00:45:11,366 --> 00:45:13,766 between movement for justice here, 768 00:45:13,766 --> 00:45:16,633 movement for justice in Africa, 769 00:45:16,633 --> 00:45:18,600 you know, he just kind of made a line in the sand, 770 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,233 said, "This is how my music is gonna address 771 00:45:22,233 --> 00:45:27,266 this worldwide movement for justice." 772 00:45:27,266 --> 00:45:29,900 -It resonated with us. 773 00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:33,300 "Freedom Now Suite" was our quest 774 00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:36,533 for liberation in South Africa and in Africa... 775 00:45:36,533 --> 00:45:39,366 ♪♪ 776 00:45:39,366 --> 00:45:43,933 ...because there was somebody, you know, 777 00:45:43,933 --> 00:45:45,500 who really cared. 778 00:45:45,500 --> 00:45:51,300 ♪♪ 779 00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:55,366 He made us all understand that there are no boundaries. 780 00:45:55,366 --> 00:45:57,600 There are no boundaries in the human experience 781 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,366 and no boundaries in music, because Max's work is really 782 00:46:02,366 --> 00:46:07,633 about how you relate to another human being. 783 00:46:07,633 --> 00:46:14,133 ♪♪ 784 00:46:14,133 --> 00:46:17,633 So there was this interlinking interconnection 785 00:46:17,633 --> 00:46:21,833 with experience and quests. 786 00:46:21,833 --> 00:46:23,600 It was our story. 787 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,700 ♪♪ 788 00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:30,066 The regime saw it as a threat. 789 00:46:30,066 --> 00:46:32,400 The music was subversive, 790 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,800 and that's why they banned it. 791 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,066 -The album was barred 792 00:46:37,066 --> 00:46:40,533 from being further imported into South Africa, 793 00:46:40,533 --> 00:46:44,966 and it reached the national press and became a light hit. 794 00:46:44,966 --> 00:46:47,100 It almost reached the kind of popularity 795 00:46:47,100 --> 00:46:52,066 that went into pop records, because the times warranted it. 796 00:46:52,066 --> 00:46:54,966 -The apartheid government said in the future they were gonna 797 00:46:54,966 --> 00:46:59,166 keep an eye out for work by Negro artists from America 798 00:46:59,166 --> 00:47:01,600 that had the word "freedom" in the title. 799 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,133 ♪♪ 800 00:47:05,133 --> 00:47:07,433 -I just looked at a picture the other day of the premiere 801 00:47:07,433 --> 00:47:11,833 of "For Love of Ivy," and they're wearing dashikis. 802 00:47:11,833 --> 00:47:13,766 [ Laughs ] You know? And I was just -- 803 00:47:13,766 --> 00:47:15,166 Nobody was doing that. 804 00:47:15,166 --> 00:47:16,766 Everybody was wearing sharkskin suits 805 00:47:16,766 --> 00:47:19,566 and, you know, slicked-back hair. 806 00:47:19,566 --> 00:47:23,400 And it was really like, "We're Black, 807 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,366 we're claiming the pride of being 808 00:47:25,366 --> 00:47:27,433 who we are as natural people, 809 00:47:27,433 --> 00:47:30,966 and we don't have to be anybody else but ourselves." 810 00:47:30,966 --> 00:47:33,000 -I remember one day they came to the house, 811 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,800 and I was a little boy, and I was like, 812 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,700 "Why does her hair look like that?" 813 00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:39,733 'Cause then all Black women were ironing and pressing 814 00:47:39,733 --> 00:47:42,500 and straightening and perming their hair. 815 00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:45,233 And later I realized that Abbey Lincoln 816 00:47:45,233 --> 00:47:47,266 had one of the first natural hairdos, 817 00:47:47,266 --> 00:47:50,766 one of the first Afros, which would become ubiquitous. 818 00:47:50,766 --> 00:47:52,033 So I always remembered, like, 819 00:47:52,033 --> 00:47:54,800 man, I saw that before the world saw that. 820 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,866 And then as I would grow older and understand more, 821 00:47:56,866 --> 00:48:01,000 I just realized how courageous they were to do those things. 822 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,900 -I didn't see myself as an imitation of anybody, 823 00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:05,866 but an original. 824 00:48:05,866 --> 00:48:07,366 And that spooked a lot of people. 825 00:48:07,366 --> 00:48:10,000 It's amazing what'll spook people. 826 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,466 They said I was a rebel, but I felt beautiful. 827 00:48:13,466 --> 00:48:16,533 I felt beautiful and whole. 828 00:48:16,533 --> 00:48:19,466 -When I first saw Abbey Lincoln, 829 00:48:19,466 --> 00:48:21,966 Abbey came there one Sunday afternoon. 830 00:48:21,966 --> 00:48:23,400 Never forget that. 831 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,766 We were in this, like, room 832 00:48:25,766 --> 00:48:29,900 that was like a smallish auditorium, right, 833 00:48:29,900 --> 00:48:34,133 and light was coming in that Sunday afternoon, 834 00:48:34,133 --> 00:48:36,633 and Abbey came with that amazing natural 835 00:48:36,633 --> 00:48:38,133 that she had on her head, 836 00:48:38,133 --> 00:48:42,700 and she did a lecture on who will revere the Black woman. 837 00:48:42,700 --> 00:48:46,233 -I believe that the role of the Black woman 838 00:48:46,233 --> 00:48:49,066 is the same role she's always played, 839 00:48:49,066 --> 00:48:51,766 that you can only play if you're a woman, 840 00:48:51,766 --> 00:48:54,033 and that is this. 841 00:48:54,033 --> 00:48:57,966 You do whatever is necessary, you know? 842 00:48:57,966 --> 00:49:02,866 That's what we've always done -- whatever came naturally. 843 00:49:02,866 --> 00:49:06,633 If the situation calls for this, you do this. 844 00:49:06,633 --> 00:49:09,766 If it calls for that, you do that. 845 00:49:09,766 --> 00:49:12,633 We all know what we're doing. 846 00:49:12,633 --> 00:49:15,500 [ Laughter ] 847 00:49:19,066 --> 00:49:22,566 -Very well put. [ Laughter ] 848 00:49:22,566 --> 00:49:24,666 I've heard people say we're not together. 849 00:49:24,666 --> 00:49:26,833 That's a state of mind. 850 00:49:26,833 --> 00:49:28,933 All I have to do is say we're together, 851 00:49:28,933 --> 00:49:30,700 he says we were together, he says we were together, 852 00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:33,366 you say when we're together, any time, 853 00:49:33,366 --> 00:49:34,766 when people say you're not together, 854 00:49:34,766 --> 00:49:36,700 it's another one of those little phrases 855 00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:39,633 that if you grasp at it, you're going to be hung with it. 856 00:49:39,633 --> 00:49:41,466 A lot of this stuff here we're gonna have to start 857 00:49:41,466 --> 00:49:45,833 weeding out, like little phrases that tend to make us look down 858 00:49:45,833 --> 00:49:49,666 on ourselves at any point, in any way possible. 859 00:49:49,666 --> 00:49:51,233 -They were originators, 860 00:49:51,233 --> 00:49:55,100 and it made us originate also, to be originators. 861 00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:57,066 And you could not go back. 862 00:49:57,066 --> 00:49:58,600 You could not turn around. 863 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,000 You had to go forward. 864 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,066 And you went forward with a fast tongue, right, you know, 865 00:50:03,066 --> 00:50:05,200 and the music on that tongue, you know, 866 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,066 and the curses on that tongue, you know, 867 00:50:07,066 --> 00:50:10,433 and the defiance on that tongue, 868 00:50:10,433 --> 00:50:13,900 but also at the same time, the beauty. 869 00:50:13,900 --> 00:50:16,400 -Very few artists were activists at the time, 870 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,066 and coming to the table with his prestige, 871 00:50:20,066 --> 00:50:22,566 he brought a lot of juice. 872 00:50:22,566 --> 00:50:25,700 I think he influenced a lot of other musicians to come in 873 00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:30,466 and to see how he'd protest through Max's eyes. 874 00:50:30,466 --> 00:50:34,300 -I still have a dream. 875 00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:39,100 It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream. 876 00:50:39,100 --> 00:50:41,766 I have a dream 877 00:50:41,766 --> 00:50:47,933 that one day this nation will rise up 878 00:50:47,933 --> 00:50:51,666 to live out the true meaning of its creed. 879 00:50:51,666 --> 00:50:55,066 We hold these truths to be self-evident 880 00:50:55,066 --> 00:50:57,633 that all men are created equal. 881 00:50:57,633 --> 00:51:00,366 [ Cheers and applause ] 882 00:51:00,366 --> 00:51:03,766 -But he ran up against a fierce enemy. 883 00:51:03,766 --> 00:51:06,000 [ Dogs barking, people shouting ] 884 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,400 And certainly those of us who spoke out 885 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,200 against injustice became the target. 886 00:51:14,366 --> 00:51:15,833 [ Woman gasps, men shouting ] 887 00:51:15,833 --> 00:51:17,833 [ Siren wailing ] 888 00:51:17,833 --> 00:51:22,400 -Max is really in the forefront of this critique of America. 889 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,000 People like Fanon and Richard Wright and Malcolm X 890 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,666 and Martin Luther King all paid, you know, a huge price for it. 891 00:51:29,666 --> 00:51:34,333 -You know, these men came along at a time 892 00:51:34,333 --> 00:51:38,366 when it was real rough, you know, 893 00:51:38,366 --> 00:51:42,966 andreallyrough for the Black man. 894 00:51:42,966 --> 00:51:47,000 And, um... 895 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:48,600 they fought. 896 00:51:50,166 --> 00:51:53,333 They fought. 897 00:51:53,333 --> 00:51:55,933 -I took it to a degree where everything I wrote 898 00:51:55,933 --> 00:51:58,966 and recorded had to do with the movement. 899 00:51:58,966 --> 00:52:01,300 [ Mid-tempo tune plays ] 900 00:52:01,300 --> 00:52:07,100 -♪ Members, don't get weary ♪ 901 00:52:08,533 --> 00:52:14,100 ♪ Members, don't get weary ♪ 902 00:52:15,466 --> 00:52:19,666 ♪ Members, don't get weary ♪ 903 00:52:19,666 --> 00:52:21,166 Even in my public performances, 904 00:52:21,166 --> 00:52:23,166 I chose to deal with that kind of music 905 00:52:23,166 --> 00:52:25,700 and that kind of attitude, and whenever I did an interview, 906 00:52:25,700 --> 00:52:27,733 the same thing prevailed. 907 00:52:27,733 --> 00:52:30,700 My public performances were curtailed because people said, 908 00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:33,400 "Well, if you hire Max Roach, he's gonna make a speech." 909 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,400 This wasn't entirely true, but I would announce 910 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,933 that this piece is dedicated to Marcus Garvey, 911 00:52:38,933 --> 00:52:40,700 and if you didn't know who Marcus Garvey was, 912 00:52:40,700 --> 00:52:43,000 since we were working downtown, 913 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:44,700 I would give a short history of Garvey. 914 00:52:44,700 --> 00:52:46,166 Well, that's too much. 915 00:52:46,166 --> 00:52:48,433 So they'd say, "Well, Max, just come in and play music. 916 00:52:48,433 --> 00:52:50,600 You don't have to talk." 917 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:56,366 -♪ There's a land of milk and honey ♪ 918 00:52:56,366 --> 00:53:00,666 ♪ Up the river they call the Nile ♪ 919 00:53:00,666 --> 00:53:05,700 -So how I really did subsist was to work with the groups 920 00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:08,766 that were doing things like that, like the NAACP. 921 00:53:08,766 --> 00:53:11,566 They premiered the "Freedom Now Suite." 922 00:53:11,566 --> 00:53:14,066 I would perform at rallies from town hall 923 00:53:14,066 --> 00:53:16,766 all the way up to the armory uptown. 924 00:53:16,766 --> 00:53:19,866 Malcolm X, the Muslims would use the entertainment 925 00:53:19,866 --> 00:53:22,466 to bring people in so that they could talk 926 00:53:22,466 --> 00:53:24,900 about the sociopolitical situation 927 00:53:24,900 --> 00:53:28,066 that existed in the United States of America. 928 00:53:28,066 --> 00:53:31,400 -Making political statements in jazz music 929 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:36,033 was definitely on the radar of the government. 930 00:53:36,033 --> 00:53:40,300 The FBI was banning, blackballing. 931 00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:43,633 J. Edgar Hoover was known to send the feds 932 00:53:43,633 --> 00:53:46,466 to gigs to revoke your musician's license away 933 00:53:46,466 --> 00:53:48,300 so that you couldn't make a living. 934 00:53:48,300 --> 00:53:49,766 -One time I went to meet him, 935 00:53:49,766 --> 00:53:51,100 and I was looking for him and looking for him, 936 00:53:51,100 --> 00:53:52,466 and I couldn't find him. 937 00:53:52,466 --> 00:53:54,500 And I saw a man, and he had a newspaper up, 938 00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:55,833 but it was, like, covered, you know, 939 00:53:55,833 --> 00:53:57,300 like you see in the movies, and I said, 940 00:53:57,300 --> 00:53:59,266 "Well, that's the only person I haven't looked at." 941 00:53:59,266 --> 00:54:02,566 I saw the hands were brown, so I go around, 942 00:54:02,566 --> 00:54:04,933 and he's down like this, and I said, "Max." 943 00:54:04,933 --> 00:54:08,233 He said, "Sit down! Sit down. Sit down. 944 00:54:08,233 --> 00:54:09,400 They're watching me. They're watching me. 945 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,166 Just sit. Sit. I just wanted to see you. 946 00:54:12,166 --> 00:54:13,366 I wanted to see how you're doing." 947 00:54:13,366 --> 00:54:14,633 And I was like, "I'm okay," but you know -- 948 00:54:14,633 --> 00:54:17,033 and he kept the paper up, and so finally I was like, 949 00:54:17,033 --> 00:54:19,033 "Max, you got to put the paper down." 950 00:54:19,033 --> 00:54:22,133 I said, "I don't think anybody's here," you know. 951 00:54:22,133 --> 00:54:27,100 -It was painful, frightening, threatening. 952 00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:30,700 It was taxing on him... 953 00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:33,700 economically, certainly, 954 00:54:33,700 --> 00:54:35,500 emotionally. 955 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:44,166 I remember one time Abbey saying to me, quietly, 956 00:54:44,166 --> 00:54:47,400 "I don't want to scream anymore." 957 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:48,733 You know? 958 00:54:51,466 --> 00:54:55,066 -[ Drumming ] 959 00:54:55,066 --> 00:55:00,400 -♪ Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah, ahhhhhhh! ♪ 960 00:55:03,066 --> 00:55:06,200 ♪ Ahhhh ♪ 961 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,433 ♪ Ahhhhhhh ♪ 962 00:55:09,433 --> 00:55:12,133 -I don't know the true dynamics 963 00:55:12,133 --> 00:55:14,166 of the end of Abbey and Dad's relationship, 964 00:55:14,166 --> 00:55:16,566 and he would never talk about it. 965 00:55:16,566 --> 00:55:20,533 But from hindsight, I see that 966 00:55:20,533 --> 00:55:26,733 his sometimes rages wore her down. 967 00:55:26,733 --> 00:55:32,866 You know, and in terms of the rage coming out of him, 968 00:55:32,866 --> 00:55:36,633 I don't see how he could have 969 00:55:36,633 --> 00:55:40,133 navigated through his life without it 970 00:55:40,133 --> 00:55:42,333 in a society that was against you 971 00:55:42,333 --> 00:55:47,333 politically, economically, and socially. 972 00:55:47,333 --> 00:55:51,300 And his expression of it being hard out there -- 973 00:55:51,300 --> 00:55:53,733 it's hard out there -- 974 00:55:53,733 --> 00:55:57,100 it was something that drove him 975 00:55:57,100 --> 00:56:00,333 to the end of his life. 976 00:56:00,333 --> 00:56:02,900 -The record companies and the industry in general 977 00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:04,733 were putting a lot of pressure on him 978 00:56:04,733 --> 00:56:08,533 to do what Miles did with "Bitches Brew," 979 00:56:08,533 --> 00:56:11,866 to go electronic, and he refused. 980 00:56:11,866 --> 00:56:13,700 -There were some musicians at that time 981 00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:16,966 who would say to me, "Forget about all of that." 982 00:56:16,966 --> 00:56:18,933 Why not just opt for making a lot of money 983 00:56:18,933 --> 00:56:20,266 and I could buy my freedom? 984 00:56:20,266 --> 00:56:22,500 Of course, I didn't believe that. 985 00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:27,266 But I remember, when I did my last album for Atlantic Records, 986 00:56:27,266 --> 00:56:28,900 I was approached by the brass there, 987 00:56:28,900 --> 00:56:31,600 and they said, "You know, Max, you know, 988 00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,633 you're the number-one this and you're number-one that. 989 00:56:35,633 --> 00:56:37,400 You know, you should be rich." 990 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,766 And I said, "Yeah," you know. 991 00:56:40,766 --> 00:56:43,433 "Why not, you know? I could go for that." 992 00:56:43,433 --> 00:56:46,833 And they said, "Well, all you have to do is do material 993 00:56:46,833 --> 00:56:50,333 that's familiar or coattail on hit tunes." 994 00:56:50,333 --> 00:56:52,533 They said, you know, "When people are familiar with things, 995 00:56:52,533 --> 00:56:56,100 they accept them much more readily 996 00:56:56,100 --> 00:56:59,066 than they would with a lot of original material. 997 00:56:59,066 --> 00:57:00,766 New material, that is." 998 00:57:00,766 --> 00:57:02,133 So I thought about it, and I said, 999 00:57:02,133 --> 00:57:04,766 "Ah, the Negro spiritual." 1000 00:57:04,766 --> 00:57:06,733 -He says, "Okay, I'll do something popular. 1001 00:57:06,733 --> 00:57:09,666 I'll do a gospel album." [ Laughs ] 1002 00:57:09,666 --> 00:57:12,900 So he did "Lift Every Voice and Sing." 1003 00:57:12,900 --> 00:57:15,000 [ Mid-tempo tune plays ] 1004 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,700 [ Choir vocalizing ] 1005 00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:20,666 It was a unique combination of jazz quartet 1006 00:57:20,666 --> 00:57:22,533 and gospel choir. 1007 00:57:22,533 --> 00:57:26,033 [ Choir vocalizing ] 1008 00:57:26,033 --> 00:57:28,600 ♪♪ 1009 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,400 I love that album. 1010 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,933 -You know, with the church, jazz was forbidden. 1011 00:57:34,933 --> 00:57:38,833 It was my desire to bring these two forces together. 1012 00:57:38,833 --> 00:57:41,033 It's the kind of material I use with something 1013 00:57:41,033 --> 00:57:44,266 like "Singing with a Sword in my Hand," 1014 00:57:44,266 --> 00:57:46,966 "Were You There When They Crucified My Lord," 1015 00:57:46,966 --> 00:57:48,466 which, to me, was a spiritual 1016 00:57:48,466 --> 00:57:51,366 that was a testament to a lynching. 1017 00:57:51,366 --> 00:57:55,066 And we used the gospel choir and jazz musicians 1018 00:57:55,066 --> 00:57:57,933 who improvised all through the arrangements. 1019 00:57:57,933 --> 00:58:01,600 -♪ Let the people go ♪ 1020 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:07,166 ♪ Let the people go ♪ 1021 00:58:07,166 --> 00:58:10,166 -I dedicated each song to people 1022 00:58:10,166 --> 00:58:15,633 like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers. 1023 00:58:15,633 --> 00:58:18,966 After the record came out, I called up the brass 1024 00:58:18,966 --> 00:58:20,400 and asked them what they thought of it, 1025 00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,900 and there was a loud silence on the other end of the phone. 1026 00:58:23,900 --> 00:58:27,300 But that was the last one I recorded 1027 00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:30,100 for a major label at that time. 1028 00:58:30,100 --> 00:58:34,100 -Here he was -- he had a new wife, Janus, 1029 00:58:34,100 --> 00:58:35,866 and twin infant daughters, 1030 00:58:35,866 --> 00:58:40,700 and I think for a while it was hard. 1031 00:58:40,700 --> 00:58:44,033 He had become depressed, you know, 1032 00:58:44,033 --> 00:58:47,666 felt like a part of his life had ended. 1033 00:58:47,666 --> 00:58:50,400 -He asked me to replace Abbey, 1034 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,700 and we had a show in Detroit. 1035 00:58:53,700 --> 00:58:56,566 All of a sudden, he started cursing me out 1036 00:58:56,566 --> 00:58:59,066 on stage in front of the public, 1037 00:58:59,066 --> 00:59:03,266 calling me the B-word, and he said, "Get off the stage," 1038 00:59:03,266 --> 00:59:05,300 you know, "Just get off the stage." 1039 00:59:05,300 --> 00:59:07,666 I mean, just, it was crazy. 1040 00:59:07,666 --> 00:59:11,366 So I went back to the hotel. I was in tears. 1041 00:59:11,366 --> 00:59:13,833 And he came into the room and he said, "I'm sorry. 1042 00:59:13,833 --> 00:59:17,033 I thought you were Abbey. You look like Abbey." 1043 00:59:17,033 --> 00:59:19,900 -I remember one time he went through the house 1044 00:59:19,900 --> 00:59:22,000 and broke every drumstick in the house, 1045 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,133 even on the little doll -- little African statues. 1046 00:59:25,133 --> 00:59:29,066 He would pull out the little ivory drumsticks and snap them. 1047 00:59:29,066 --> 00:59:31,166 So when the offer came in for him 1048 00:59:31,166 --> 00:59:35,633 to take a professorship up at UMass, he took it. 1049 00:59:37,666 --> 00:59:40,533 -I went up there because the students demanded it, 1050 00:59:40,533 --> 00:59:43,400 during the period when Black students 1051 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,500 were asking for more faculty 1052 00:59:45,500 --> 00:59:48,966 and they were seizing the campuses and things like this. 1053 00:59:48,966 --> 00:59:51,166 It grew out of this whole '60s movement. 1054 00:59:51,166 --> 00:59:55,166 When the students demanded it, the university reached out. 1055 00:59:55,166 --> 00:59:57,600 Of all the schools that showed an interest, 1056 00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,033 UMass was the closest to New York City, 1057 01:00:00,033 --> 01:00:03,933 and I felt that I could still do the things I wanted to do, 1058 01:00:03,933 --> 01:00:05,433 so I had to move my family there, 1059 01:00:05,433 --> 01:00:07,700 and that was good for me, I thought. 1060 01:00:09,433 --> 01:00:11,800 -Yeah, this is the house in Amherst. 1061 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,266 Wow. Um... 1062 01:00:15,266 --> 01:00:17,500 Wow. Look at us. 1063 01:00:17,500 --> 01:00:23,200 I have never seen this. 1064 01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:24,500 That's me. -That's you? 1065 01:00:24,500 --> 01:00:26,733 -I think that's me. 1066 01:00:26,733 --> 01:00:30,033 Oh, my goodness. 1067 01:00:30,033 --> 01:00:32,633 -He was a responsible father, 1068 01:00:32,633 --> 01:00:35,366 and he understood that he had to provide 1069 01:00:35,366 --> 01:00:37,866 for himself and for his family. 1070 01:00:37,866 --> 01:00:40,833 And it was a way to also connect with students. 1071 01:00:40,833 --> 01:00:43,733 We'd have young, you know, aspiring musicians 1072 01:00:43,733 --> 01:00:45,066 come over to the house. 1073 01:00:45,066 --> 01:00:49,066 He was always mentoring somebody. 1074 01:00:49,066 --> 01:00:52,833 -I began to experiment with the students. 1075 01:00:52,833 --> 01:00:56,100 You had a 60-voice choir. 1076 01:00:56,100 --> 01:00:59,666 ♪♪ 1077 01:00:59,666 --> 01:01:01,933 You had musicians in the music department, 1078 01:01:01,933 --> 01:01:04,566 and we would begin to collaborate on doing 1079 01:01:04,566 --> 01:01:09,066 large orchestral works that spotlighted percussion 1080 01:01:09,066 --> 01:01:13,166 and improvised instrumentalists, so that was a good period for me 1081 01:01:13,166 --> 01:01:17,033 because it was good for experimenting. 1082 01:01:17,033 --> 01:01:18,766 -I was teaching, 1083 01:01:18,766 --> 01:01:21,233 and I got arrested with my students, right? 1084 01:01:21,233 --> 01:01:24,000 I came to find out that I wasn't being rehired, 1085 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:25,600 so that's why I went to Amherst. 1086 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,133 And we got up to Amherst College. 1087 01:01:28,133 --> 01:01:31,433 Man, it is 9:00 a.m. in the morning, 1088 01:01:31,433 --> 01:01:33,033 and Max looked like he was 1089 01:01:33,033 --> 01:01:35,600 just gotten out of "Gentlemen's Quarterly," right? 1090 01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:38,700 He had this hat sitting acey-deucey, 1091 01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:41,700 this leather coat -- jacket on, 1092 01:01:41,700 --> 01:01:43,700 this turtleneck sweater on. 1093 01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:45,466 But Max came over and said, 1094 01:01:45,466 --> 01:01:47,166 "We heard you were coming up here. 1095 01:01:47,166 --> 01:01:49,766 Welcome. Now you'll be okay." 1096 01:01:49,766 --> 01:01:54,633 -There was a community of Black artists, intellectuals, 1097 01:01:54,633 --> 01:01:59,366 scholars that he was very closely connected to. 1098 01:01:59,366 --> 01:02:02,933 But, you know, he was still Max Roach at that time. 1099 01:02:02,933 --> 01:02:07,000 He still wanted to create. He still wanted to perform. 1100 01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:08,600 That's who he was. 1101 01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:11,366 [ Applause ] 1102 01:02:11,366 --> 01:02:13,600 -[ Drumming ] 1103 01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:19,066 ♪♪ 1104 01:02:19,066 --> 01:02:22,466 I began to do these drum solos, concerts with drum solos. 1105 01:02:22,466 --> 01:02:24,066 You know, the composers and all, they'd say, 1106 01:02:24,066 --> 01:02:27,600 "Well, you're just doing a solo with drums." 1107 01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:29,633 And I'd say, "Yes, that's what it is." 1108 01:02:29,633 --> 01:02:31,200 "You mean to tell me you're gonna play an hour 1109 01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:32,533 and a half with drums?" 1110 01:02:32,533 --> 01:02:33,666 "Yes." 1111 01:02:33,666 --> 01:02:45,500 ♪♪ 1112 01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:47,466 One guy says, "Man, I heard this piece, Max, 1113 01:02:47,466 --> 01:02:49,766 but it didn't sound like music to me." 1114 01:02:49,766 --> 01:02:54,133 And I say, "Well, in the sense of this area of music, 1115 01:02:54,133 --> 01:02:56,033 when you talk about didn't sound like Charlie Parker 1116 01:02:56,033 --> 01:02:57,866 or Duke Ellington or Mozart or Bach 1117 01:02:57,866 --> 01:03:00,433 or somebody like that, you're right. 1118 01:03:00,433 --> 01:03:04,533 But I'm organizing sounds now, 1119 01:03:04,533 --> 01:03:06,533 and sound is not restricted 1120 01:03:06,533 --> 01:03:10,000 to any particular group of instruments. 1121 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,266 This world of sound is infinite." 1122 01:03:13,266 --> 01:03:31,866 ♪♪ 1123 01:03:31,866 --> 01:03:34,000 [ Applause ] 1124 01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:37,300 ♪♪ 1125 01:03:37,300 --> 01:03:40,133 I wanted to put it all together logically 1126 01:03:40,133 --> 01:03:42,666 and create a structure 1127 01:03:42,666 --> 01:03:45,833 and a piece of sound architecture that makes sense, 1128 01:03:45,833 --> 01:03:47,466 and phrases that are rhythmic 1129 01:03:47,466 --> 01:03:51,300 and that come out of the drum set itself. 1130 01:03:51,300 --> 01:03:54,366 And M'Boom, of course, uses all those properties. 1131 01:03:54,366 --> 01:03:57,066 [ Tapping ] 1132 01:03:57,066 --> 01:04:11,566 ♪♪ 1133 01:04:11,566 --> 01:04:14,333 [ Cymbals playing ] 1134 01:04:14,333 --> 01:04:17,533 -M'Boom came about because I had this group 1135 01:04:17,533 --> 01:04:20,000 of percussion instruments in my studio. 1136 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:23,300 So people like Max Roach and Joe Chambers 1137 01:04:23,300 --> 01:04:25,633 would come up there to practice. 1138 01:04:25,633 --> 01:04:29,200 We were all there, and it was Max's idea. 1139 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:31,200 After he finished rehearsing, we sat down. 1140 01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,433 He said, "I'm thinking about starting a percussion ensemble." 1141 01:04:35,433 --> 01:04:39,366 -I wanted to hear and create something different 1142 01:04:39,366 --> 01:04:41,266 but would still be in the continuum 1143 01:04:41,266 --> 01:04:44,600 of what Duke Ellington and Charlie Parker 1144 01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:46,733 and Count Basie visualized, 1145 01:04:46,733 --> 01:04:50,300 but only with percussion instruments. 1146 01:04:50,300 --> 01:04:52,833 -At that time, percussion ensembles 1147 01:04:52,833 --> 01:04:58,633 were all strictly, like, snare drums and military. 1148 01:04:58,633 --> 01:05:04,000 And Max heard something that was more African. 1149 01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,200 [ Mid-tempo tune plays ] 1150 01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:16,733 ♪♪ 1151 01:05:16,733 --> 01:05:19,866 -The music of Africa is very powerful. 1152 01:05:22,066 --> 01:05:25,033 We were taken away from Mother Africa, 1153 01:05:25,033 --> 01:05:29,533 but whether we were taken to Brazil or Cuba or Haiti 1154 01:05:29,533 --> 01:05:31,866 or Mississippi or Georgia, 1155 01:05:31,866 --> 01:05:34,700 we approached life with what Duke says, 1156 01:05:34,700 --> 01:05:36,866 "the African pulse," in our music. 1157 01:05:36,866 --> 01:06:50,133 ♪♪ 1158 01:05:55,166 --> 01:06:50,133 ♪♪ 1159 01:06:50,133 --> 01:06:52,333 -We decided we could just do anything we wanted. 1160 01:06:52,333 --> 01:06:56,466 It doesn't sound like the African percussion ensembles. 1161 01:06:56,466 --> 01:06:59,166 It doesn't sound like the European percussion ensembles. 1162 01:06:59,166 --> 01:07:00,633 It doesn't sound like Kodo, 1163 01:07:00,633 --> 01:07:03,933 the Japanese percussion ensembles. 1164 01:07:03,933 --> 01:07:06,466 We could come up with our own musical personality. 1165 01:07:06,466 --> 01:07:23,566 ♪♪ 1166 01:07:23,566 --> 01:07:26,500 [ Laughter ] 1167 01:07:28,766 --> 01:07:31,366 -It's a group made of drummers. 1168 01:07:31,366 --> 01:07:32,933 That's my worst nightmare. 1169 01:07:32,933 --> 01:07:36,966 [ Laughs ] 1170 01:07:36,966 --> 01:07:38,866 You know, it's just weird. 1171 01:07:38,866 --> 01:07:40,766 You know how many drummers call me up 1172 01:07:40,766 --> 01:07:42,500 to like, "Yo, man, let's come over, 1173 01:07:42,500 --> 01:07:44,033 let's shed together"? 1174 01:07:44,033 --> 01:07:47,200 And I was like, "Ugh. This is soup for one. No." 1175 01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,333 Like, for guitarists to play together, 1176 01:07:49,333 --> 01:07:52,033 for horn sections to play together, for pianists, 1177 01:07:52,033 --> 01:07:54,133 I always feel that there's a natural give and take, 1178 01:07:54,133 --> 01:07:57,200 but with drumming, it's such -- 1179 01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:00,333 it's such a responsibility, because someone's gonna 1180 01:08:00,333 --> 01:08:03,666 have to be the alpha in the situation. 1181 01:08:03,666 --> 01:08:05,933 Someone's gonna have to determine the meter. 1182 01:08:05,933 --> 01:08:08,400 Someone's gonna have to determine the volume, 1183 01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:10,566 the level, the dynamics. 1184 01:08:10,566 --> 01:08:13,400 It's just, whew! 1185 01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:14,433 How? 1186 01:08:14,433 --> 01:08:17,433 -The fact that we had Max Roach, 1187 01:08:17,433 --> 01:08:20,000 whom we all idolized, 1188 01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:23,166 so we accepted him and his domination. 1189 01:08:23,166 --> 01:08:27,500 And, of course, our egos weren't as big, 1190 01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:29,166 but we would have arguments. 1191 01:08:29,166 --> 01:08:32,366 There was one time we were rehearsing at my studio, 1192 01:08:32,366 --> 01:08:34,866 and Max and Joe Chambers squared off. 1193 01:08:34,866 --> 01:08:38,800 Joe was the only one who had the height, the stature, 1194 01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:40,933 and the ego to challenge Max. 1195 01:08:40,933 --> 01:08:42,733 And Max said, "Well, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah," 1196 01:08:42,733 --> 01:08:44,600 and Joe said, "Oh, yeah? Well, come on. 1197 01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:46,333 We're gonna walk outside and settle this." 1198 01:08:46,333 --> 01:08:49,600 And they got together and they both marched out, 1199 01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,100 and everybody sat there and waited for five minutes, 1200 01:08:52,100 --> 01:08:55,066 and then they both came in smiling and laughing together. 1201 01:08:55,066 --> 01:08:59,600 [ Up-tempo tune plays ] 1202 01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,166 -Max was great with me. He loved me. 1203 01:09:02,166 --> 01:09:05,333 And everybody was scared of him. 1204 01:09:05,333 --> 01:09:07,100 And whatever I did, it made him laugh, 1205 01:09:07,100 --> 01:09:09,233 and we had fun, and da, da, da. 1206 01:09:09,233 --> 01:09:11,633 I did my job, and he used to call me Ramon, 1207 01:09:11,633 --> 01:09:13,700 and he would teach me, right? 1208 01:09:13,700 --> 01:09:17,400 He would teach me the mallets, teach me the chimes. 1209 01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:18,600 "I want you to do this, Ray." 1210 01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:22,266 And I would learn it, and that's it. 1211 01:09:22,266 --> 01:09:24,966 -We realized that we were going to have to create this music, 1212 01:09:24,966 --> 01:09:27,766 so every one of us sat down 1213 01:09:27,766 --> 01:09:31,366 and composed a percussion ensemble piece 1214 01:09:31,366 --> 01:09:33,900 that involved what we could do. 1215 01:09:33,900 --> 01:09:36,566 [ All whistling ] 1216 01:09:36,566 --> 01:09:39,300 We did a whole piece which described 1217 01:09:39,300 --> 01:09:43,866 the elements of a storm, from drizzling rain... 1218 01:09:43,866 --> 01:09:47,533 [ Saw warbling ] 1219 01:09:47,533 --> 01:09:51,200 ...through a thunderstorm and lightning. 1220 01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:56,566 [ All whistling ] 1221 01:09:56,566 --> 01:09:59,533 [ Saw warbling ] 1222 01:09:59,533 --> 01:10:02,800 [ Whistling continues ] 1223 01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:06,600 This was one of the first abstract pieces that we did 1224 01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,666 that, you know, everybody just bought into. 1225 01:10:09,666 --> 01:10:12,066 [ Whistling ] [ Bells chiming ] 1226 01:10:14,733 --> 01:10:17,966 -He would give us an idea, and we would hit on that, 1227 01:10:17,966 --> 01:10:19,633 and then we would build on it. 1228 01:10:19,633 --> 01:10:21,266 Everybody would build on it. 1229 01:10:21,266 --> 01:10:24,066 And that was real. That's jazz. That's music. 1230 01:10:24,066 --> 01:10:27,566 ♪♪ 1231 01:10:27,566 --> 01:10:32,266 -After a year and a half of rehearsing one day a week, 1232 01:10:32,266 --> 01:10:35,500 Max got an endorsement 1233 01:10:35,500 --> 01:10:38,600 from the Ludwig Drum Company... [ Applause ] 1234 01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:43,333 ...and at that point, arranged our first European tour. 1235 01:10:43,333 --> 01:10:47,066 [ All slapping ] 1236 01:10:47,066 --> 01:10:50,733 That kind of established us as an entity, 1237 01:10:50,733 --> 01:10:54,600 and we just kept growing and kept performing. 1238 01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:56,000 [ Slapping continues ] 1239 01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,500 -[ Drumming ] 1240 01:10:58,500 --> 01:11:04,233 ♪♪ 1241 01:11:04,233 --> 01:11:08,233 -I would say that of all of the Max Roach projects -- 1242 01:11:08,233 --> 01:11:12,233 this includes the quintet, the Clifford Brown project, 1243 01:11:12,233 --> 01:11:13,600 all of the stuff with Abbey Lincoln, 1244 01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:17,333 his solo stuff -- the M'Boom project 1245 01:11:17,333 --> 01:11:20,500 is probably his most adventurous. 1246 01:11:22,100 --> 01:11:25,033 [ Cheers and applause ] 1247 01:11:25,033 --> 01:11:27,666 -Max was one of the people redefining what the music 1248 01:11:27,666 --> 01:11:31,233 is gonna be in every decade that he was active. 1249 01:11:31,233 --> 01:11:34,000 He was never resting on his laurels, and he could have. 1250 01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,800 -A lot of bebop purists want Max 1251 01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:40,166 and people that made that great music over 50 years ago, 1252 01:11:40,166 --> 01:11:43,533 they want those guys to continue to play the same thing. 1253 01:11:43,533 --> 01:11:46,600 And Max and those guys were always about that new 1254 01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:47,900 and that next thing. 1255 01:11:47,900 --> 01:11:49,600 [ Record scratching ] 1256 01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:51,000 -[ Drumming ] 1257 01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,800 -Right about now, my man with the fresh approach, 1258 01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:57,100 none other than the maestro Max Roach. 1259 01:11:57,100 --> 01:11:59,100 Check, check, check, check it out. 1260 01:11:59,100 --> 01:12:00,366 Rock, rock. Yeah. 1261 01:12:00,366 --> 01:12:02,700 -The musical director at The Kitchen, 1262 01:12:02,700 --> 01:12:05,066 a performance art space in New York, 1263 01:12:05,066 --> 01:12:06,766 had a meeting with Max Roach, 1264 01:12:06,766 --> 01:12:10,766 and the idea came, what about a performance? 1265 01:12:10,766 --> 01:12:13,000 -Max. -This is still early '80s. 1266 01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:14,800 -Yeah, Max. 1267 01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:17,233 -[ Drumming ] 1268 01:12:17,233 --> 01:12:24,800 ♪♪ 1269 01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:27,300 -I was at that performance with Fab 5 Freddy 1270 01:12:27,300 --> 01:12:29,433 and the DJs at The Kitchen, yeah. 1271 01:12:29,433 --> 01:12:32,733 Max was there with his suit, you know, debonair, 1272 01:12:32,733 --> 01:12:35,533 looking like Max Roach, you know? 1273 01:12:35,533 --> 01:12:38,433 It's like, oh, new drum music is being made in the culture? 1274 01:12:38,433 --> 01:12:40,233 Well, of course Max Roach is here. 1275 01:12:40,233 --> 01:12:42,266 The most natural thing in the world. 1276 01:12:42,266 --> 01:12:47,633 In some ways he was kind of this living, totemic 1277 01:12:47,633 --> 01:12:49,800 art piece, art object. 1278 01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:52,033 -[ Rapping ] ♪ I pump the mic ♪ 1279 01:12:52,033 --> 01:12:53,466 -When the rap craze came, 1280 01:12:53,466 --> 01:12:55,500 it was another thing that excited me, 1281 01:12:55,500 --> 01:12:57,233 because I said, "Now, this is the same thing 1282 01:12:57,233 --> 01:12:59,433 I had been working on all these years." 1283 01:12:59,433 --> 01:13:04,066 Because what they did was just use rhythm 1284 01:13:04,066 --> 01:13:07,700 without using the rules of music theory. 1285 01:13:07,700 --> 01:13:09,933 So when my peers say, "Well, Max, you know 1286 01:13:09,933 --> 01:13:12,833 you're dealing with these rap-- what, that's not music," 1287 01:13:12,833 --> 01:13:16,033 you know, and I say, "Well, it may not be music, 1288 01:13:16,033 --> 01:13:19,600 but it's part of the world of sound that music is part of." 1289 01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:22,566 And it created something that was very valid for me. 1290 01:13:22,566 --> 01:13:24,600 -♪ Dyno-mite, dyno-mite, dyno-mite ♪ 1291 01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:28,300 -He got the anarchic, disruptive aspects of their music. 1292 01:13:28,300 --> 01:13:30,233 And it just gives you a sense of, really, 1293 01:13:30,233 --> 01:13:32,566 his connection to Blackness. 1294 01:13:32,566 --> 01:13:36,266 -Of course my dad's like, "Look, Max Roach is on television." 1295 01:13:36,266 --> 01:13:38,566 Like, he didn't care what else was going on. 1296 01:13:38,566 --> 01:13:42,533 But I was kind of looking at my dad like, "Wait a minute. 1297 01:13:42,533 --> 01:13:44,500 You realize, like, 1298 01:13:44,500 --> 01:13:47,300 this is a fusion collaboration between the music I like 1299 01:13:47,300 --> 01:13:49,666 that you detest and the music..." 1300 01:13:49,666 --> 01:13:51,500 Like, this can work. 1301 01:13:51,500 --> 01:13:53,900 -We thank you very much. [ Applause ] 1302 01:13:53,900 --> 01:13:57,633 Max, Fab 5 Freddy. See you later. 1303 01:13:57,633 --> 01:14:00,133 -The fact that he saw that vision 1304 01:14:00,133 --> 01:14:03,833 before it became cool in the early '90s 1305 01:14:03,833 --> 01:14:06,366 for you to mix your hip-hop and your jazz together 1306 01:14:06,366 --> 01:14:09,800 shows, like, how ahead of the curve he was. 1307 01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:12,033 -Now, I've seen you do "The Drum Also Waltzes." 1308 01:14:12,033 --> 01:14:13,166 Can you give a little bit of that? 1309 01:14:13,166 --> 01:14:14,666 -Oh, sure, sure, sure. Absolutely. 1310 01:14:14,666 --> 01:14:16,833 So it's... 1311 01:14:16,833 --> 01:14:18,933 [ Drumming ] 1312 01:14:18,933 --> 01:14:28,466 ♪♪ 1313 01:14:28,466 --> 01:14:30,733 -[ Drumming ] 1314 01:14:30,733 --> 01:14:56,200 ♪♪ 1315 01:14:56,200 --> 01:15:01,033 -I remember he'd look at the drum kit and he'd say, 1316 01:15:01,033 --> 01:15:03,966 "I'm just beginning to master this." 1317 01:15:03,966 --> 01:15:06,200 And he was in his 70s then. 1318 01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:08,900 ♪♪ 1319 01:15:08,900 --> 01:15:12,433 -Do you have the time... -The unrest that he had 1320 01:15:12,433 --> 01:15:16,333 always propelled him, particularly in the later years, 1321 01:15:16,333 --> 01:15:18,866 as long as he could focus on what was ahead 1322 01:15:18,866 --> 01:15:21,700 and not duplicate anything. 1323 01:15:21,700 --> 01:15:23,933 The foray into ballet 1324 01:15:23,933 --> 01:15:29,600 and playing drums with a reading of Toni Morrison -- 1325 01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,600 those are some of the things that he took his instrument 1326 01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:34,433 and his art to 1327 01:15:34,433 --> 01:15:39,266 and his desire to exceed his own boundaries. 1328 01:15:39,266 --> 01:15:41,466 [ Down-tempo tune plays ] 1329 01:15:41,466 --> 01:15:55,733 ♪♪ 1330 01:15:55,733 --> 01:15:58,033 -Max Roach, y'all! 1331 01:15:58,033 --> 01:16:01,466 -[ Drumming ] 1332 01:16:01,466 --> 01:16:03,600 -After a while, you expected to see Max Roach 1333 01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:05,100 pop up in all these places 1334 01:16:05,100 --> 01:16:08,833 and just really showcase his musicianship 1335 01:16:08,833 --> 01:16:11,400 in so many different contexts. 1336 01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:14,166 ♪♪ 1337 01:16:14,166 --> 01:16:16,666 [ Up-tempo tune plays ] 1338 01:16:16,666 --> 01:16:19,533 ♪♪ 1339 01:16:19,533 --> 01:16:21,266 -You know, I heard -- and I don't know if this is true, 1340 01:16:21,266 --> 01:16:24,066 but I heard that, you know, the older you get, 1341 01:16:24,066 --> 01:16:28,366 the more you are like yourself when you were younger. 1342 01:16:28,366 --> 01:16:30,266 -Go ahead. Whatever you do is good. 1343 01:16:30,266 --> 01:16:34,166 -[ Drumming ] 1344 01:16:34,166 --> 01:16:36,933 All right. Now you go over here, Joe. 1345 01:16:36,933 --> 01:16:39,466 -So, you know, there's so many stories 1346 01:16:39,466 --> 01:16:42,666 out there about his temper, 1347 01:16:42,666 --> 01:16:46,633 but later in life, he was so gentle. 1348 01:16:46,633 --> 01:16:49,133 -That's all right. Go ahead. 1349 01:16:49,133 --> 01:16:51,000 Oh, she's bashful. 1350 01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:53,066 [ Laughter ] 1351 01:16:53,066 --> 01:16:57,033 I'm gonna do a piece called "Mop Mop." 1352 01:16:57,033 --> 01:16:58,600 -"Mop Mop." 1353 01:16:58,600 --> 01:17:00,633 -Yeah. I'm gonna play on the drums... 1354 01:17:00,633 --> 01:17:04,300 ♪ Delia-da-da, delia-da-da, delia-da-da-da ♪ 1355 01:17:04,300 --> 01:17:05,800 Clap, clap. 1356 01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:09,900 ♪ Delia-da-da, delia-da-da, delia-da-da-da ♪ 1357 01:17:09,900 --> 01:17:11,066 [ Children clapping ] 1358 01:17:11,066 --> 01:17:15,200 Very, very good. Let me try it on the drums here. 1359 01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:18,900 [ Drumming ] 1360 01:17:18,900 --> 01:17:20,433 [ Children clapping ] 1361 01:17:20,433 --> 01:17:24,033 [ Drumming ] 1362 01:17:24,033 --> 01:17:25,133 [ Children clapping ] 1363 01:17:25,133 --> 01:17:27,633 [ Drumming ] 1364 01:17:27,633 --> 01:17:46,300 ♪♪ 1365 01:17:46,300 --> 01:17:48,700 [ Children clapping ] 1366 01:17:48,700 --> 01:17:51,600 My artistic efforts is to show 1367 01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:55,866 that we can be the strongest and most creative people 1368 01:17:55,866 --> 01:17:57,866 instrumentally that there is. 1369 01:17:57,866 --> 01:18:00,466 And, in fact, if I had never played music, 1370 01:18:00,466 --> 01:18:01,900 I'd take pride in knowing that 1371 01:18:01,900 --> 01:18:04,433 Black folks are the greatest musicians in the world 1372 01:18:04,433 --> 01:18:08,233 by way of Charlie Parker and Elvin Jones 1373 01:18:08,233 --> 01:18:12,400 and Kenny Clarke and Lester Young, et cetera. 1374 01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:15,433 [ Down-tempo tune plays ] 1375 01:18:15,433 --> 01:18:22,766 ♪♪ 1376 01:18:22,766 --> 01:18:25,833 -At Lincoln Center, they had inductee night 1377 01:18:25,833 --> 01:18:30,433 for the Jazz Hall of Fame. 1378 01:18:30,433 --> 01:18:33,033 He was in a wheelchair at that time, 1379 01:18:33,033 --> 01:18:35,433 but he was talking, everything. 1380 01:18:35,433 --> 01:18:37,833 He was, you know, joking around about stuff, 1381 01:18:37,833 --> 01:18:44,100 you know, as Max was wont to do. 1382 01:18:44,100 --> 01:18:48,266 They put Max and I in the same dressing room. 1383 01:18:48,266 --> 01:18:53,666 All his children were there, so we talked, and he was cool. 1384 01:18:53,666 --> 01:18:58,033 But that's the last time I saw him, you know. 1385 01:18:58,033 --> 01:19:01,633 And... 1386 01:19:01,633 --> 01:19:04,500 it was great, you know? 1387 01:19:04,500 --> 01:19:08,000 ♪♪ 1388 01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:09,833 -Thousands of people gathered 1389 01:19:09,833 --> 01:19:12,533 at Riverside Church in New York on Friday 1390 01:19:12,533 --> 01:19:14,800 for the funeral of the legendary drummer, 1391 01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:17,533 educator, and activist Max Roach. 1392 01:19:17,533 --> 01:19:20,900 Maya Angelou, Amiri Baraka, Sonia Sanchez, 1393 01:19:20,900 --> 01:19:22,400 and others credited Roach 1394 01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:25,500 with helping to revolutionize the sound of jazz 1395 01:19:25,500 --> 01:19:27,700 and for playing a prominent role in the struggle 1396 01:19:27,700 --> 01:19:31,233 for Black liberation at home and in Africa. 1397 01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:36,933 -I have come to sing a song of praise 1398 01:19:36,933 --> 01:19:41,766 to the courage of Black men in general 1399 01:19:41,766 --> 01:19:44,766 and Max Roach in particular. 1400 01:19:44,766 --> 01:19:47,666 It is such a wonderful thing to look 1401 01:19:47,666 --> 01:19:50,966 at these friends and family, 1402 01:19:50,966 --> 01:19:53,166 to see great names here, 1403 01:19:53,166 --> 01:19:57,566 great artists who loved Max Roach 1404 01:19:57,566 --> 01:20:02,333 because he had the courage to love us. 1405 01:20:02,333 --> 01:20:06,966 And so I'm glad to say we had him. 1406 01:20:06,966 --> 01:20:10,766 We are bigger and better and stronger 1407 01:20:10,766 --> 01:20:13,833 because Max Roach was my brother. 1408 01:20:13,833 --> 01:20:16,600 [ Applause ] 1409 01:20:18,933 --> 01:20:21,333 -[ Drumming ] 1410 01:20:21,333 --> 01:20:32,533 ♪♪ 1411 01:20:32,533 --> 01:20:37,200 -You know, it's that kind of love that those giants gave us. 1412 01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:39,700 They actually said, "We love you," you know? 1413 01:20:39,700 --> 01:20:41,200 "We're gonna make sure you survive. 1414 01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:43,633 We're gonna give you music that will make you survive. 1415 01:20:43,633 --> 01:20:45,233 You know, it will make you get out 1416 01:20:45,233 --> 01:20:47,133 into the streets of America 1417 01:20:47,133 --> 01:20:50,900 and challenge everything and call people mother[bleep] 1418 01:20:50,900 --> 01:20:53,100 you know, who need to be called mother[bleep] right?" 1419 01:20:53,100 --> 01:20:54,300 That was Max. 1420 01:20:54,300 --> 01:20:56,866 You know, Max did that for all of us. 1421 01:20:56,866 --> 01:21:02,900 ♪♪ 1422 01:21:02,900 --> 01:21:07,066 -Max Roach didn't set out to become an icon of history. 1423 01:21:07,066 --> 01:21:11,100 He did what he did 'cause he felt it was his responsibility. 1424 01:21:11,100 --> 01:21:14,433 He wasn't trying to be anything. He was already it. 1425 01:21:14,433 --> 01:21:26,066 ♪♪ 1426 01:21:29,533 --> 01:22:21,700 ♪♪