1 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:16,860 Hello. 2 00:00:16,860 --> 00:00:19,780 A lot of us have had the feeling when we've been shocked 3 00:00:19,780 --> 00:00:23,740 or let down by somebody close to us, of wondering if we can ever 4 00:00:23,740 --> 00:00:26,780 really know the people in our lives. 5 00:00:26,780 --> 00:00:29,740 Few, though, have had an experience as shattering as 6 00:00:29,740 --> 00:00:32,100 high school teacher Hannah Grundy. 7 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:35,860 Almost three years ago, her trust was obliterated 8 00:00:35,860 --> 00:00:39,820 in the most disturbing way but she transformed her anger 9 00:00:39,820 --> 00:00:41,780 into a pursuit for justice. 10 00:00:50,100 --> 00:00:52,380 HANNAH: It's just hard to put into words, I guess, 11 00:00:52,380 --> 00:00:54,940 what the last three years have been like. 12 00:00:54,940 --> 00:00:59,220 It's been pretty awful and it's been pretty lonely. 13 00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:04,260 What we went through, like, it just seemed so strange, 14 00:01:04,260 --> 00:01:06,460 so weird that it would happen to us. 15 00:01:11,700 --> 00:01:15,740 One second we were just ordinary people, and the next minute 16 00:01:15,740 --> 00:01:17,100 everything just kind of blew up. 17 00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:25,100 Just knowing that there was someone out there that was so fixated on me 18 00:01:25,100 --> 00:01:28,500 and had spent so many hours thinking about me, 19 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:30,180 was just really terrifying. 20 00:01:35,340 --> 00:01:37,900 I always thought I was a pretty good judge of character. 21 00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:40,140 I guess I've had to question that quite a lot. 22 00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:44,340 What has happened to us, 23 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:47,380 it makes you wonder who you can ever trust. 24 00:01:48,220 --> 00:01:50,580 Whether you can ever really know someone. 25 00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:10,540 MAN: This story really starts at a place called Manning Bar 26 00:02:10,540 --> 00:02:12,900 about a decade ago. 27 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:15,700 It's the on-campus bar at Sydney Uni. 28 00:02:16,820 --> 00:02:20,180 A lot of students would go there, have lunch, a couple of schooners, 29 00:02:20,180 --> 00:02:24,620 um, and of a night there's often gigs. 30 00:02:26,060 --> 00:02:28,100 And Manning Bar is where I met Hannah. 31 00:02:30,260 --> 00:02:32,820 HANNAH: I was working there in the daytime at that point. 32 00:02:33,580 --> 00:02:36,540 What I loved about it was that I made a lot of friends 33 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:38,580 from the bar that I wouldn't have made otherwise. 34 00:02:39,460 --> 00:02:41,020 It was just a nice way to make friends. 35 00:02:42,900 --> 00:02:46,940 Rachel and Jess and Kris and a couple of managers - 36 00:02:46,940 --> 00:02:49,180 that was a very close-knit group for us. 37 00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:53,100 We would do our shift, and then we would walk down King Street 38 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:55,340 and go and get a drink and go back to someone's house. 39 00:02:56,780 --> 00:02:58,980 WOMAN: Manning Bar was a family. 40 00:02:58,980 --> 00:03:00,860 We worked together, we partied together, 41 00:03:00,860 --> 00:03:03,260 we went on holidays together. 42 00:03:03,260 --> 00:03:06,380 That was pretty much our core social group for all of us. 43 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:11,460 We all pretty consistently stayed in touch after we all left. 44 00:03:16,220 --> 00:03:19,900 HANNAH: After we left uni, Kris and I got on with our careers. 45 00:03:19,900 --> 00:03:23,740 I became a high school science teacher and Kris works in finance. 46 00:03:23,740 --> 00:03:25,060 No, probably not. 47 00:03:25,060 --> 00:03:28,020 We've been together for a very long time now, so I think we're heading 48 00:03:28,020 --> 00:03:32,100 on 13 years now, so we're just a pretty strong unit. 49 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:36,380 It's very hard to imagine now a Hannah without a Kris, 50 00:03:36,380 --> 00:03:38,580 and a Kris without a Hannah. 51 00:03:38,580 --> 00:03:40,500 They're very lucky to have each other 52 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:42,220 because they do work so well together. 53 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:49,740 HANNAH: A few years ago, Kris and I bought our first house together. 54 00:03:49,740 --> 00:03:51,020 We furnished it. 55 00:03:51,780 --> 00:03:55,540 I think when we bought the house, it felt like we'd finally kind of got 56 00:03:55,540 --> 00:03:57,780 comfortable, got situated. 57 00:03:57,780 --> 00:03:59,460 You know, we had the dogs. 58 00:03:59,460 --> 00:04:02,580 I think it was a really nice time for us, during that period. 59 00:04:04,020 --> 00:04:06,460 About a year after that, everything changed. 60 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:10,220 KRIS: Towards the end of 2021, 61 00:04:10,220 --> 00:04:13,700 Hannah started getting emails from someone called John Doe, 62 00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:18,620 which we initially ignored because they seemed very much like a scam. 63 00:04:20,420 --> 00:04:22,340 Actually, the emails weren't a scam. 64 00:04:23,660 --> 00:04:26,260 My name is Will. I live in New Zealand. 65 00:04:26,260 --> 00:04:28,260 I was in the police for three years. 66 00:04:28,260 --> 00:04:31,580 I'm a part-time private investigator 67 00:04:31,580 --> 00:04:36,980 with a very specific focus on online activity or online intelligence. 68 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:42,300 Internet-enabled crime is massive. 69 00:04:42,300 --> 00:04:44,860 It is quite a difficult space to operate in. 70 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:48,060 Therefore, I'm keeping my identity secret. 71 00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:54,380 I was made aware of Hannah based on information that an ex-colleague 72 00:04:54,380 --> 00:04:57,460 had given me about a particular website. 73 00:04:59,100 --> 00:05:03,140 I contacted Hannah because I was concerned. 74 00:05:04,660 --> 00:05:07,300 A couple of months after the John Doe email, 75 00:05:07,300 --> 00:05:09,540 Hannah got an email from someone called Sally. 76 00:05:10,780 --> 00:05:12,500 WILL: That was me as well. 77 00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:15,700 I persisted in sending them emails 78 00:05:15,700 --> 00:05:19,300 because I thought there was quite serious potential for harm. 79 00:05:21,780 --> 00:05:25,260 HANNAH: What it said was, "This is really important," 80 00:05:25,260 --> 00:05:27,900 and then underneath it said, "Warning..." 81 00:05:27,900 --> 00:05:29,420 And I'm paraphrasing, 82 00:05:29,420 --> 00:05:31,940 "This link contains disturbing material." 83 00:05:31,940 --> 00:05:35,140 And so that one had freaked me out a little bit. 84 00:05:39,460 --> 00:05:42,260 KRIS: We discussed it. We thought it was probably still a scam, 85 00:05:42,260 --> 00:05:44,900 but she wanted me to open the link, so I did. 86 00:05:46,540 --> 00:05:49,420 HANNAH: He searched it, 87 00:05:49,420 --> 00:05:53,140 and I'm just waiting at the door, like, looking in, 88 00:05:53,140 --> 00:05:54,860 just wondering what's going on. 89 00:05:54,860 --> 00:05:57,060 And he kind of just went white. 90 00:05:59,860 --> 00:06:02,780 KRIS: I remember opening the link, looking at Hannah 91 00:06:02,780 --> 00:06:05,540 and just saying, "Oh, fuck, it's real." 92 00:06:07,580 --> 00:06:10,100 And there was just, like, photo after photo of me, 93 00:06:10,100 --> 00:06:12,380 like, clearly porn images, 94 00:06:12,380 --> 00:06:16,260 but then my face had been superimposed on the women in them. 95 00:06:19,260 --> 00:06:24,220 I'll never forget how shocking, how scary it was to see me like that. 96 00:06:27,060 --> 00:06:30,780 There was a poll at the top of the page where people were voting 97 00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:33,700 on their preferred way of raping Hannah. 98 00:06:36,660 --> 00:06:39,660 And there was hundreds and hundreds of votes. 99 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:56,420 I was just so scared, that my brain just said to keep me safe, 100 00:06:56,420 --> 00:06:58,700 I cannot see any more of that website. 101 00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:00,060 And I came into this room, 102 00:07:00,060 --> 00:07:03,860 I came into the lounge room instead, and I shut down, 103 00:07:03,860 --> 00:07:05,500 and Kris continued to go through it. 104 00:07:08,540 --> 00:07:11,380 KRIS: On the photos there were Hannah's full name, 105 00:07:11,380 --> 00:07:13,580 her middle name as well. 106 00:07:13,580 --> 00:07:18,300 Um, said that she was from Sydney, gave out her Instagram handle. 107 00:07:18,300 --> 00:07:21,860 It was all very easily identifiable information. 108 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:27,740 Soon after that, I saw some more explicit and direct threats. 109 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:47,020 I'd say it's probably the first time in my life 110 00:07:47,020 --> 00:07:48,620 that I've ever had a panic attack. 111 00:07:48,620 --> 00:07:51,140 Um, it was just incredibly shocking 112 00:07:51,140 --> 00:07:56,340 and I didn't know what to do, and I felt very powerless. 113 00:08:01,180 --> 00:08:05,620 WILL: The posts of Hannah were incredibly graphic in nature, 114 00:08:05,620 --> 00:08:09,340 using AI technology to add things like bruising. 115 00:08:10,660 --> 00:08:13,660 I thought it was so disturbing that someone had spent so much time 116 00:08:13,660 --> 00:08:16,220 doing that to my images. 117 00:08:16,220 --> 00:08:18,460 And it was very clear even from the beginning 118 00:08:18,460 --> 00:08:21,220 that they were from my Facebook or my Instagram. 119 00:08:21,220 --> 00:08:24,020 And I just...that was obviously... 120 00:08:24,020 --> 00:08:26,220 Meant it was someone I knew. 121 00:08:29,220 --> 00:08:32,660 It wasn't all just me. There was also other women posted. 122 00:08:35,420 --> 00:08:38,460 KRIS: We saw photos of Rachel and Jess, 123 00:08:38,460 --> 00:08:40,300 our friends from Manning Bar. 124 00:08:43,180 --> 00:08:46,740 HANNAH: It was just really awful to see your friends like that. 125 00:08:46,740 --> 00:08:49,220 I think it's one thing to see yourself, 126 00:08:49,220 --> 00:08:52,020 but it's just something to see people that you love 127 00:08:52,020 --> 00:08:53,700 on that website as well. 128 00:09:00,140 --> 00:09:03,380 KRIS: We just kept going through all of the posts. 129 00:09:03,380 --> 00:09:05,820 There was a few other people that we'd worked with at Manning, 130 00:09:05,820 --> 00:09:09,420 so it became pretty obvious that there was some Manning 131 00:09:09,420 --> 00:09:11,180 or hospitality connection there. 132 00:09:12,460 --> 00:09:14,460 We were sort of thinking that it would be a patron, 133 00:09:14,460 --> 00:09:17,180 someone that we didn't know particularly well. 134 00:09:17,180 --> 00:09:20,580 You were looking through all of the women from that website, 135 00:09:20,580 --> 00:09:22,420 and we were putting them into Facebook 136 00:09:22,420 --> 00:09:23,900 and putting their names through, 137 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:26,140 and we were seeing the mutual friends we had. 138 00:09:27,380 --> 00:09:29,420 It got... Progressively smaller. 139 00:09:29,420 --> 00:09:32,060 Progressively smaller, until we got to... 140 00:09:32,060 --> 00:09:34,700 How many names did we get to? About three? 141 00:09:36,660 --> 00:09:38,900 Everything was pointing us very clearly in one direction, 142 00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:40,460 and we just really didn't want that. 143 00:09:41,500 --> 00:09:44,460 And it just became sort of more and more obvious 144 00:09:44,460 --> 00:09:46,660 that it was our friend Andy. 145 00:09:50,020 --> 00:09:54,860 HANNAH: When I started at Manning Bar, Andy was the bar supervisor. 146 00:09:54,860 --> 00:09:57,940 He was someone that really cared about me, and I cared about him. 147 00:09:57,940 --> 00:10:01,020 And I thought of him as a very good friend of mine. 148 00:10:04,180 --> 00:10:08,020 I guess it was so shocking because Andy was someone we trusted 149 00:10:08,020 --> 00:10:13,460 so much, and he's been to our house, we've been on holidays with him, 150 00:10:13,460 --> 00:10:15,820 and a lot of the big moments of our life in the last 10 years 151 00:10:15,820 --> 00:10:19,020 had been with him there as a very close friend. 152 00:10:19,020 --> 00:10:24,780 So, I guess the shock of that was kind of so hard to bear. 153 00:10:26,140 --> 00:10:30,860 There was never any risk or any worry about him. 154 00:10:30,860 --> 00:10:32,900 No, probably the lowest-risk person... 155 00:10:34,540 --> 00:10:36,740 ..to spend time with, really. 156 00:10:36,740 --> 00:10:37,740 Yeah. 157 00:10:39,100 --> 00:10:41,980 I felt very betrayed by it. 158 00:10:41,980 --> 00:10:44,620 How do you trust other people now, 159 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:48,980 when you've known someone for 10 years 160 00:10:48,980 --> 00:10:52,220 and they can say that kind of stuff about you online. 161 00:10:52,220 --> 00:10:54,460 I don't...I don't understand it. Yeah. 162 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:06,660 HANNAH: The next morning I called the police and they told me 163 00:11:06,660 --> 00:11:09,780 that I should just come on in. 164 00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:12,980 So I drove down there, and I had a Google Doc, 165 00:11:12,980 --> 00:11:15,980 which was everything that we had kind of collated the night before, 166 00:11:15,980 --> 00:11:17,660 ready to show them. 167 00:11:17,660 --> 00:11:22,260 I gave the police about 600 screenshots or so 168 00:11:22,260 --> 00:11:26,220 and gave them a spreadsheet that was sort of linking all the women 169 00:11:26,220 --> 00:11:29,020 and posts on the website to Andy. 170 00:11:32,260 --> 00:11:34,780 HANNAH: I knew that it wasn't gonna be enough evidence for them 171 00:11:34,780 --> 00:11:38,460 to charge someone, but I thought it might be a good launch pad 172 00:11:38,460 --> 00:11:40,820 or something for them to go on and investigate 173 00:11:40,820 --> 00:11:42,340 and them to come to the same conclusion. 174 00:11:42,340 --> 00:11:45,740 We really thought they'd be like, "Oh, good work." 175 00:11:47,580 --> 00:11:51,540 KRIS: Our hope or expectation was that it would be 176 00:11:51,540 --> 00:11:53,740 fairly easy to charge him. 177 00:11:53,740 --> 00:11:55,980 It seemed like he'd done something illegal, 178 00:11:55,980 --> 00:12:03,660 and we left thinking that the police didn't really share that view. 179 00:12:06,020 --> 00:12:09,020 HANNAH: So, a few days after we went to the police, 180 00:12:09,020 --> 00:12:11,260 we hadn't heard back anything about our concerns, 181 00:12:11,260 --> 00:12:13,300 and so that's when we decided to approach a lawyer. 182 00:12:15,580 --> 00:12:17,540 My name is Sidnie Sarang. 183 00:12:17,540 --> 00:12:21,580 I've been a criminal defence lawyer for six years now. 184 00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:24,500 Normally in a case such as this one, 185 00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:29,020 we would be advising clients to pursue an action in defamation. 186 00:12:29,020 --> 00:12:32,060 However, these offences were far more serious. 187 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:37,980 My role was to push things along with the police as quickly 188 00:12:37,980 --> 00:12:41,100 as possible, given how dire the material was. 189 00:12:45,300 --> 00:12:48,460 HANNAH: Andy did continue posting. 190 00:12:48,460 --> 00:12:51,140 He was still posting photos of me and our friends. 191 00:12:51,140 --> 00:12:56,060 He was getting comments from others about what they would do to us. 192 00:12:56,060 --> 00:13:00,540 And Kris would, you know, download them and send them to the police. 193 00:13:02,820 --> 00:13:06,740 SIDNIE: Every few weeks I would be checking in with the police. 194 00:13:06,740 --> 00:13:10,020 They advised us that the matter was still being looked into. 195 00:13:11,460 --> 00:13:14,380 It was really difficult for Hannah during this period, 196 00:13:14,380 --> 00:13:15,420 waiting for an update. 197 00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:18,780 She had to do her best to keep herself distracted. 198 00:13:21,420 --> 00:13:23,460 HANNAH: School was a big refuge 199 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:26,020 and I just got to be myself and I got to teach. 200 00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:30,780 I think without teaching, I would have fallen apart. 201 00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:37,100 Going there every day and being normal and just doing that 202 00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:38,700 kept my mind very busy. 203 00:13:39,940 --> 00:13:42,340 It was hard though, putting on a brave face 204 00:13:42,340 --> 00:13:46,660 in front of the students when you feel so freaked out like that. 205 00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:52,780 I just was so terrified to be by myself at any time. 206 00:13:56,180 --> 00:13:59,260 I was so worried even to go from my car to my house, 207 00:13:59,260 --> 00:14:02,020 because I thought Andy could just run and get me. 208 00:14:03,980 --> 00:14:07,460 KRIS: To see someone with such a fixation on my partner 209 00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:09,660 was quite confronting. 210 00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:12,940 It made me very angry, very anxious for her safety. 211 00:14:14,540 --> 00:14:17,580 We set up cameras around the house. 212 00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:20,740 We set up location tracking on Hannah's phone. 213 00:14:23,660 --> 00:14:26,980 They were so afraid and so traumatised 214 00:14:26,980 --> 00:14:29,420 that they just bunkered down, just the two of them. 215 00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:34,460 JESSICA: I definitely noticed that Kris and Hannah weren't hanging out 216 00:14:34,460 --> 00:14:36,700 anymore and weren't really keen to engage. 217 00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:41,500 They were usually the drivers of all of us getting together. 218 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:43,900 I just assumed that they were busy. 219 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:47,820 KRIS: We really wanted to tell Jess and Rachel 220 00:14:47,820 --> 00:14:49,300 because it just felt wrong not to. 221 00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:51,620 And there were times where we just thought, 222 00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:54,500 "This is ridiculous and they need to know." 223 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:58,780 But Sidnie thankfully advised that we didn't. 224 00:14:58,780 --> 00:15:03,980 Because if he got any inkling that we knew about it, 225 00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:06,420 if he ripped everything off the websites, which he could do 226 00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:09,180 I'm sure pretty quickly, there would be no case. 227 00:15:09,180 --> 00:15:13,500 Kris and Hannah couldn't let Andrew know that they were on to him. 228 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,540 They had to act like everything was totally normal. 229 00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:21,340 KRIS: Andy would contact us every now and then to catch up, 230 00:15:21,340 --> 00:15:26,580 go for a drink, which was pretty unsettling given what he was doing. 231 00:15:26,580 --> 00:15:30,020 We would basically just tell him that we're already in bed, 232 00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:33,180 or we had other plans, and brush him off a bit. 233 00:15:35,340 --> 00:15:39,620 HANNAH: At one point, we were going to a little festival down the road, 234 00:15:39,620 --> 00:15:41,580 just like a footy festival. 235 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:45,460 I walked in the gates and got hugged by someone, 236 00:15:45,460 --> 00:15:47,660 and it was Andy, and it was, like, 237 00:15:47,660 --> 00:15:49,940 within 30 seconds of walking into the park. 238 00:15:49,940 --> 00:15:51,140 It was quite incredible. 239 00:15:53,140 --> 00:15:55,780 HANNAH: I didn't think he would be so friendly. 240 00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:59,340 He gave me a big hug and he asked me about my life, 241 00:15:59,340 --> 00:16:02,700 and we stood there like normal, with our other friends, 242 00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:06,180 talking 10 minutes, maybe. 243 00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:08,420 The Andy that I saw that day in the park 244 00:16:08,420 --> 00:16:11,740 was still the Andy that I'm friends with, I WAS friends with. 245 00:16:13,620 --> 00:16:16,540 HANNAH: The weird thing about it is, on one hand, you're so angry 246 00:16:16,540 --> 00:16:18,020 about what has happened, 247 00:16:18,020 --> 00:16:20,340 but at the time when I saw him, 248 00:16:20,340 --> 00:16:23,340 it just...it was just like seeing my good friend. 249 00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:26,820 It still didn't make any sense 250 00:16:26,820 --> 00:16:29,060 that these two people were the same person. 251 00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:37,140 It wasn't particularly clear to us what was actually happening 252 00:16:37,140 --> 00:16:38,900 with the police investigation. 253 00:16:41,580 --> 00:16:45,860 HANNAH: So, about five months after I had reported it, I got a phone call 254 00:16:45,860 --> 00:16:48,620 from the police and I got excited. 255 00:16:48,620 --> 00:16:54,460 So, I really thought that something good was going to happen for us, 256 00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:58,540 and they very politely told me that there was nowhere else 257 00:16:58,540 --> 00:17:01,420 for the case to go and it was going to be suspended. 258 00:17:02,820 --> 00:17:06,420 We were basically livid that... 259 00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:10,780 ..nothing could be done. 260 00:17:10,780 --> 00:17:13,060 We'd put together such a... 261 00:17:14,180 --> 00:17:17,500 ..what appeared to us to be a strong set of evidence. 262 00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:22,700 SIDNIE: Kris and Hannah weren't going to go away quietly. 263 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:25,660 We were already liaising with a private investigator, 264 00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:27,500 Dr Allan Watt. 265 00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:32,420 We went back to him and requested a report to properly consolidate 266 00:17:32,420 --> 00:17:35,020 all of the materials that Kris and Hannah had prepared. 267 00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:40,580 ALLAN: I am a digital forensic analyst. 268 00:17:40,580 --> 00:17:42,820 I've been doing this now for 25 years. 269 00:17:42,820 --> 00:17:46,020 I've also spent two years with the New South Wales police. 270 00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:49,860 I've done probably around about 1,500-odd cases. 271 00:17:51,180 --> 00:17:56,820 The spreadsheets and other extracts from the websites 272 00:17:56,820 --> 00:18:01,740 that both Hannah and Kris had produced made my job a lot easier, 273 00:18:01,740 --> 00:18:05,780 but I had to do things in a scientific manner. 274 00:18:05,780 --> 00:18:08,260 I can't remember how many hours I spent on this, 275 00:18:08,260 --> 00:18:10,780 maybe 50, 60 hours, maybe even more. 276 00:18:10,780 --> 00:18:12,700 So, for a police officer to just go and take time out, 277 00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:15,260 spend 50, 60 hours on a job like this 278 00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:18,780 is also not going to see the light of day, it's just too hard. 279 00:18:18,780 --> 00:18:20,420 They are overrun. 280 00:18:21,940 --> 00:18:26,740 By the time I'd finished my report, I was completely certain 281 00:18:26,740 --> 00:18:31,020 that it was Andrew Hayler and nobody else but Andrew Hayler. 282 00:18:33,820 --> 00:18:36,220 SIDNIE: Once we received the final report, 283 00:18:36,220 --> 00:18:38,460 we immediately wrote to police 284 00:18:38,460 --> 00:18:43,580 urgently seeking a reopening of the case. 285 00:18:43,580 --> 00:18:48,300 Soon after that report was sent off, things moved very quickly. 286 00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:53,540 I think within a week, Hannah had had a call from the police, 287 00:18:53,540 --> 00:18:57,260 saying that a detective would be assigned, 288 00:18:57,260 --> 00:19:00,380 and then we found out that Andy's house was going to be raided. 289 00:19:04,300 --> 00:19:08,900 HANNAH: I got a phone call when I was at the supermarket. 290 00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:11,540 They said they would be going into his house 291 00:19:11,540 --> 00:19:15,980 and trying to seize all of his IT and his phones, and everything like that. 292 00:19:17,740 --> 00:19:19,940 And there's a line of people, 293 00:19:19,940 --> 00:19:22,380 and I'm just trying to get her to hold on 294 00:19:22,380 --> 00:19:26,060 while I'm trying to scan my stuff still, because I'm freaking out. 295 00:19:28,820 --> 00:19:33,700 They went into Andy's house and they seized laptops 296 00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:36,540 and they seized hard drives and USBs. 297 00:19:39,540 --> 00:19:41,820 It got to midday or so, 298 00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:45,460 and Hannah called me and said, yeah, it had happened, 299 00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:47,380 they got everything they needed. 300 00:19:47,380 --> 00:19:49,740 Andy had given the passwords, 301 00:19:49,740 --> 00:19:52,460 and they had all the content they needed to charge him. 302 00:19:56,660 --> 00:20:00,220 I think for Hannah and Kris, maybe there was always this little part 303 00:20:00,220 --> 00:20:02,460 of them that wished that this wasn't true 304 00:20:02,460 --> 00:20:04,300 and maybe they had got the wrong person 305 00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:06,220 and maybe they wouldn't find anything. 306 00:20:06,220 --> 00:20:11,980 So, I think when they did find all the evidence and all the photos, 307 00:20:11,980 --> 00:20:14,780 that there was a great sense of validation, but a great sense 308 00:20:14,780 --> 00:20:20,180 of sadness as well, that, "Oh, my gosh, this really is him." 309 00:20:23,620 --> 00:20:26,820 KRIS: At that point, I guess we were able 310 00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:29,300 to start talking about it to people. 311 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,620 We were worried that Rachel and Jess might be upset 312 00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:35,380 that we had kept it from them for so long. 313 00:20:39,060 --> 00:20:41,460 JESSICA: I got a message from Hannah, 314 00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:45,420 and I hadn't heard from her in, like, probably over a year. 315 00:20:45,420 --> 00:20:48,100 Um, so immediately was concerned. 316 00:20:49,860 --> 00:20:55,900 RACHEL: I remember she called me, and I knew that it wasn't good news. 317 00:20:56,980 --> 00:21:00,220 And she said, like, "Where are you? Are you with someone? 318 00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:01,660 "Are you sitting down?" 319 00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:08,900 She said, um, that there was this pretty heinous website, 320 00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:13,420 um, and that a bunch of doctored photos and videos 321 00:21:13,420 --> 00:21:18,020 had been put on and that Rachel had a pretty big thread on there, 322 00:21:18,020 --> 00:21:19,780 and that I had one, too. 323 00:21:21,460 --> 00:21:23,700 I did get Hannah and Kris to send me through 324 00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:25,100 some of the images. 325 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:26,340 I just felt sick. 326 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:33,100 RACHEL: I think I was really scared and I think I broke into tears. 327 00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:37,100 This, like, fire of vitality that I always had 328 00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:38,940 just got put out immediately. 329 00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:40,140 Um... 330 00:21:43,020 --> 00:21:44,060 Sorry. 331 00:21:47,340 --> 00:21:51,620 JESSICA: Hannah told me about how many hours they had put into 332 00:21:51,620 --> 00:21:54,340 trying to find the person who did it. 333 00:21:54,340 --> 00:21:58,140 And I remember she said that it was Andy who had done it, 334 00:21:58,140 --> 00:22:01,140 and I just felt my stomach drop. 335 00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:04,340 My response, it was immediate. I just said, "Andy? 336 00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:06,780 "Andy?" 337 00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:11,540 JESSICA: Andy was such a trusted and good friend to me, 338 00:22:11,540 --> 00:22:14,460 that when I did have some pretty terrible experiences, 339 00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:16,020 he was the person that I called. 340 00:22:17,180 --> 00:22:21,100 I couldn't really comprehend that it was someone 341 00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:24,540 so harmless and, like, safe. 342 00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:31,460 Hannah apologised and said how sorry she was that she couldn't tell us. 343 00:22:32,860 --> 00:22:37,620 She apologised for pulling back from all of us, 344 00:22:37,620 --> 00:22:40,580 and I just felt so sad that they had to carry that by themselves 345 00:22:40,580 --> 00:22:42,380 for ages. 346 00:22:46,140 --> 00:22:48,380 NEWSREADER: A Sydney bartender who spent years 347 00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:51,260 digitally altering photos of women he knew 348 00:22:51,260 --> 00:22:53,900 and then posting them to a pornographic website 349 00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:57,660 has been forced to face his victims in court. 350 00:22:57,660 --> 00:23:00,300 SIDNIE: Andrew Hayler was charged with offences 351 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:01,900 in relation to 26 women. 352 00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:04,180 All of those offences were in relation to 353 00:23:04,180 --> 00:23:07,140 the misuse of carriage service. 354 00:23:07,140 --> 00:23:11,060 He pled guilty to all of the charges which were laid against him. 355 00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:14,620 HANNAH: When we got the sentencing date, it was very exciting 356 00:23:14,620 --> 00:23:17,060 because we were going to have an end to it. 357 00:23:18,220 --> 00:23:22,020 There was a lot of women that I had seen in photos 358 00:23:22,020 --> 00:23:24,820 that I had never met before, and so it was a very strange thing 359 00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:28,900 when they introduced themselves to you and you know them already, 360 00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:31,180 and you don't introduce yourself 361 00:23:31,180 --> 00:23:34,460 because you just feel like, well, I know who you are. 362 00:23:34,460 --> 00:23:37,020 And, like, I mean, I wouldn't say it was nice, 363 00:23:37,020 --> 00:23:38,420 but it was good to be together. 364 00:23:43,140 --> 00:23:45,500 Do you have anything to say to the women that you hurt? 365 00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,100 Just hold on. Yeah, I'm really, really sorry. 366 00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:50,700 You're really sorry? Why did you do it? 367 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:55,180 Just a dark part of my psychology that came out, manifested. 368 00:23:56,540 --> 00:23:59,420 How do you feel about facing all these women today? 369 00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:00,740 I've got to do it. 370 00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:03,540 Thank you, guys. 371 00:24:04,540 --> 00:24:07,380 KRIS: Seeing Andy in court, 372 00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:11,260 even just walking into the Downing Centre, 373 00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:13,500 I was able to finally marry those two people - 374 00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:17,780 um, the Andy that I used to be friends with and the predator. 375 00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:25,740 During court, we heard evidence about Andy's state of mind. 376 00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:28,380 We heard that he had a drug and alcohol problem 377 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:29,980 during the period of his offending, 378 00:24:29,980 --> 00:24:33,700 that he had a long-term addiction to violent porn. 379 00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:39,620 It was explained that by posting these images that he felt empowered, 380 00:24:39,620 --> 00:24:43,900 that it helped him overcome feelings of sexual inferiority. 381 00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:47,500 But it's impossible for us to understand 382 00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:49,180 how Andy could have done what he did. 383 00:24:51,140 --> 00:24:53,380 (READS) "It's distressing to have some of the happiest moments 384 00:24:53,380 --> 00:24:55,900 "of my life tainted by his disgusting actions." 385 00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:58,500 "Every stranger now represents a potential threat, 386 00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:01,100 "a reminder of the vulnerability and exposure..." 387 00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:03,340 "You shattered the sense of security I used to take for granted. 388 00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:05,140 "The world feels unfamiliar and dangerous. 389 00:25:05,140 --> 00:25:06,620 "I'm constantly anxious." 390 00:25:06,620 --> 00:25:09,900 It was very sad, hearing all the victim impact statements 391 00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:12,420 and understanding all the ways 392 00:25:12,420 --> 00:25:14,860 that so many people had been affected by this. 393 00:25:14,860 --> 00:25:18,860 "I searched for almost a year to feel safe in my body again. 394 00:25:18,860 --> 00:25:22,060 "I could no longer receive my partner's touch with openness. 395 00:25:22,060 --> 00:25:24,460 "I could not feel arousal without feeling shame." 396 00:25:24,460 --> 00:25:26,740 "Discovering Andy was vastly different from the person 397 00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:29,980 "I thought I knew, and the extent of the harm he intended towards me, 398 00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:31,300 "is deeply unsettling." 399 00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:33,180 "Forming new friendships feels impossible. 400 00:25:33,180 --> 00:25:36,860 "Burdened by the constant question, could this person be like you?" 401 00:25:38,860 --> 00:25:43,660 ALISON: We didn't think that there would be a custodial sentence. 402 00:25:43,660 --> 00:25:45,620 It was a very long build-up 403 00:25:45,620 --> 00:25:48,660 and there was just such a tension in the room. 404 00:25:48,660 --> 00:25:51,940 It was very, very palpable. 405 00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:59,860 The judge, she said nine years, 406 00:25:59,860 --> 00:26:04,100 and I, like, I think I just sobbed. 407 00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:06,940 And then she said 5.5 non-parole. 408 00:26:08,540 --> 00:26:10,980 I just...I don't really remember anything after that point. 409 00:26:10,980 --> 00:26:12,380 I think I just cried. 410 00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:15,780 I remember Kris was behind me and my mum was behind me, 411 00:26:15,780 --> 00:26:18,860 and the girls were there. 412 00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:21,140 I think I just grabbed Jess and I just squeezed 413 00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:25,660 and my heart dropped and we were like, "What?" 414 00:26:25,660 --> 00:26:30,340 Like, I think there was so much shock and joy. 415 00:26:33,820 --> 00:26:37,740 KRIS: It was very vindicating, having the judge read out 416 00:26:37,740 --> 00:26:42,020 all of the sort of vile things that he'd written on that website 417 00:26:42,020 --> 00:26:46,980 and acknowledging that they were causing harm. 418 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:50,660 And I think her words were "profound harm". 419 00:26:50,660 --> 00:26:53,260 It really, really felt like we were listened to as victims, 420 00:26:53,260 --> 00:26:55,820 like the legal system was taking it seriously. 421 00:26:58,140 --> 00:27:02,420 WILL: Hannah emailed me and told me that Hayler had been sentenced 422 00:27:02,420 --> 00:27:05,780 and that it was a significant sentence. 423 00:27:05,780 --> 00:27:07,980 In my mind, that is justice. 424 00:27:07,980 --> 00:27:12,260 Um, it was just a real journey to, um, to get there. 425 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:17,420 KRIS: After it was all over, 426 00:27:17,420 --> 00:27:20,100 we found out that Sally was actually Will. 427 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:21,300 Hey. How are you? 428 00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:23,340 We wouldn't have been able to do any of this 429 00:27:23,340 --> 00:27:25,860 or even known about any of this without him. 430 00:27:27,140 --> 00:27:32,220 Some anonymous internet stranger that is just a great person. 431 00:27:32,220 --> 00:27:34,420 That was just a genuine good deed. 432 00:27:41,660 --> 00:27:45,700 HANNAH: There's been a few months now since the court case. 433 00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:48,820 I'm excited to just kind of go back to regular life 434 00:27:48,820 --> 00:27:53,540 and have all my time not, you know, spotted with emails 435 00:27:53,540 --> 00:27:57,100 from random people online and the police, and things like that. 436 00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:00,180 Like, I went to Galapagos for my birthday last year, for my 30th. 437 00:28:00,180 --> 00:28:01,980 JESSICA: I am so, so grateful 438 00:28:01,980 --> 00:28:04,260 to Kris and Hannah for all of the effort 439 00:28:04,260 --> 00:28:08,540 and time that they put in to making sure that justice was served. 440 00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:11,140 She's a bit of an adventurer, yeah! 441 00:28:11,140 --> 00:28:16,260 HANNAH: The process has made me think that Kris and I are a very good team. 442 00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:17,660 And the girls. 443 00:28:17,660 --> 00:28:19,620 I think it was a team effort. 444 00:28:19,620 --> 00:28:22,860 The girls I've met are so incredible. 445 00:28:22,860 --> 00:28:26,540 He picked some very strong and very smart women. 446 00:28:26,540 --> 00:28:30,780 (LAUGHTER AND CONVERSATION) 447 00:28:30,780 --> 00:28:33,460 I look really forward to strengthening again 448 00:28:33,460 --> 00:28:35,260 my relationships with Jess and Rachel 449 00:28:35,260 --> 00:28:37,700 because it's been so long without them. 450 00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:39,500 If I don't see you beforehand. 451 00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:41,020 Congratulations. Thank you. 452 00:28:41,020 --> 00:28:43,500 ALISON: I'm hoping they can put it behind them now. 453 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:47,140 But I, yeah, I worry. 454 00:28:47,140 --> 00:28:48,500 I worry for them, 455 00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:52,140 about what effect this will continue to have on their life. 456 00:28:56,020 --> 00:28:58,260 KRIS: Hannah and I are just trying to focus on the future. 457 00:28:58,260 --> 00:29:02,780 But while Andy's in prison, this isn't actually over for us 458 00:29:02,780 --> 00:29:07,180 because these photos just keep appearing on other websites. 459 00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:15,140 They still spread and appear in new places 460 00:29:15,140 --> 00:29:18,580 that they hadn't been before, and it's impossible to get rid of them. 461 00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:22,900 HANNAH: When they pop up, 462 00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:25,140 they have my full name on them and they will forever. 463 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:30,460 So, you know, this part of my life has been wrapped up, 464 00:29:30,460 --> 00:29:32,900 but that will go on for the rest of my life. 465 00:29:34,820 --> 00:29:38,140 I will always have to contend with that. 466 00:29:38,140 --> 00:29:41,860 So, I guess he's gotten the sentence for what he's done to me. 467 00:29:41,860 --> 00:29:45,380 But the future, you don't know. 468 00:30:01,820 --> 00:30:03,780 Captions by Red Bee Media 469 00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:05,780 Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation