1 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,560 Hello. 2 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:16,800 Performance artist Kirsha Kaechele Hello. 3 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,320 Performance artist Kirsha Kaechele made headlines recently 4 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,960 when one of her projects, the Ladies Lounge, 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:23,240 when one of her projects, the Ladies Lounge, faced an unsuccessful legal action for discrimination against men. 6 00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:27,880 faced an unsuccessful legal action for discrimination against men. 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,160 There are many ways to describe Kirsha - 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,560 bold, provocative, single-minded, unique. 9 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,720 She's also known as the wife of David Walsh, 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,920 the founder of Tasmania's acclaimed Museum of Old and New Art. 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:42,160 the founder of Tasmania's But who is the real Kirsha Kaechele? 12 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:45,000 But who is the real Kirsha Kaechele? 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,360 WOMAN: I find myself in this role as 'Mrs MONA', 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:53,600 WOMAN: I find myself in this role as 'Mrs MONA', or 'the First Lady of MONA', 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,400 or 'the First Lady of MONA', 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,880 and very much as 'David Walsh's wife'. 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,840 And I have mixed feelings about it. 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:02,640 Oh, this is a good line. 19 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,400 On the one hand, 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:04,640 it's definitely highly irritating On the one hand, 21 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,880 it's definitely highly irritating and very anti-feminist, 22 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:08,120 it's definitely highly irritating and I don't like it. 23 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:09,880 and I don't like it. 24 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:14,560 But there's benefits, too, of having a powerful man in your life. 25 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:14,800 But there's benefits, too, of I find I get away with more. 26 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:16,400 I find I get away with more. 27 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:16,600 (INDISTINCT CHATTER AND LAUGHTER) I find I get away with more. 28 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,840 (INDISTINCT CHATTER AND LAUGHTER) 29 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:21,800 MAN 1: Kirsha's a lot of things. 30 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:22,000 She's complicated and flawed, MAN 1: Kirsha's a lot of things. 31 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,440 She's complicated and flawed, 32 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:23,680 She's complicated and flawed, but she's always authentically herself. 33 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,480 but she's always authentically herself. 34 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:26,720 but she's always Beautiful form. Beautiful poise. 35 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,640 Beautiful form. Beautiful poise. 36 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:35,680 WOMAN: Kirsha is both a curator and a performance artist. 37 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:35,920 WOMAN: Kirsha is both a curator She is creative without a boundary. 38 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,840 She is creative without a boundary. 39 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,840 MAN 2: Three. Two. One. 40 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,600 MAN 3: She just looks at the world through a different lens. 41 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,320 She considers life as art, 42 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:48,960 that the world and everything in it 43 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,000 is a fascinating plaything. 44 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:52,240 Butlers! I think I see is a fascinating plaything. 45 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,120 Butlers! I think I see an empty glass. 46 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,720 WOMAN: Sometimes when you're at an artwork with her, 47 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,880 you're never quite sure if it's an artwork, 48 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,280 a protest, a fundraiser, or a party, 49 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:04,920 but it's usually all of them. 50 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,600 REPORTER: The artist behind the Ladies Lounge exhibition 51 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:09,880 at MONA in Tasmania 52 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:10,120 is being sued at MONA in Tasmania 53 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,120 is being sued for gender discrimination. 54 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:13,880 REPORTER 2: The trendy museum recently set up 55 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:14,120 REPORTER 2: The trendy museum a women-only Ladies Lounge, 56 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,360 a women-only Ladies Lounge, 57 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,200 but a male patron became upset 58 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,840 when he was denied entry. 59 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:22,080 KIRSHA: I want to ask when he was denied entry. 60 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:23,840 KIRSHA: I want to ask the difficult questions, 61 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,000 but I want to ask them playfully and lovingly. 62 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:27,240 but I want to ask them And I do want it to be fun, 63 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:28,680 And I do want it to be fun, 64 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,520 because I think that makes it easier to investigate things 65 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:32,760 because I think that makes it easier and go into uncomfortable spaces. 66 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,560 and go into uncomfortable spaces. 67 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,320 MAN 1: She dares to be feminine and sexual 68 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,240 and to talk about those power dynamics. 69 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,840 That's very confronting to us, in all sorts of ways. 70 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:46,080 That's very confronting to us, It's confronting to men. 71 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,480 It's confronting to men. 72 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,440 It's confronting to the art world. 73 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:49,680 We'll see how the men take it. It's confronting to the art world. 74 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,360 We'll see how the men take it. The men are a little hysterical. 75 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:52,600 We'll see how the men take it. But I have had to deal with these... 76 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,360 But I have had to deal with these... 77 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,160 ..yes, kind of serious art-world critics 78 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,120 who just tell me that I'm not an artist, 79 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,080 I'm not relevant, and I'm not making art. 80 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,640 So it's like, "OK." 81 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,040 But it gave me something to fight against 82 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,360 and to prove, I had to work harder. 83 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,440 So... Oh, yeah? 84 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,960 (MIMICS EXPLOSION) 85 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,240 (IMITATES GERMAN ACCENT) Tonight, on Australian Story 86 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,640 we meet artist and curator Kirsha Kakele. 87 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:32,880 we meet artist and curator Kirsha Kakele. Kirsha. Kirsha. 88 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,600 Kirsha. Kirsha. 89 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,240 (REGULAR VOICE) The eyebrows are great. 90 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:38,520 To get someone like Kirsha to talk about herself, (REGULAR VOICE) The eyebrows are great. 91 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,200 To get someone like Kirsha to talk about herself, 92 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:42,440 To get someone like Kirsha um, is an interesting challenge. 93 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,280 um, is an interesting challenge. 94 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:45,880 (IN CHARACTER) Ha, ha, ha, ha! 95 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:46,120 (IN CHARACTER) Ha, ha, ha, ha! Kirsha has a little bit of armour about herself, 96 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,680 Kirsha has a little bit of armour about herself, 97 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:48,920 Kirsha has a little bit of but also her life is her art, 98 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,200 but also her life is her art, 99 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,040 so be prepared for some surprises. 100 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,680 Kirsha was loud when she should have been silent. 101 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:04,920 And she was bold where she should have been meek. 102 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:05,160 And she was bold where she should have been meek. I'm not surprised she's an artist. 103 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,840 I'm not surprised she's an artist. 104 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,400 She'll find some interesting ways to tell her own story 105 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,760 that may not involve her normal clothes. 106 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,040 (AMERICAN STONER ACCENT) When I saw her in the... 107 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:17,280 This is her last reincarnation. (AMERICAN STONER ACCENT) When I saw her in the... 108 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:19,600 This is her last reincarnation. 109 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,320 And this lifetime is very special 110 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:22,560 And this lifetime is very special because this time she's married to David Walsh. 111 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,080 because this time she's married to David Walsh. 112 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,560 I need a good name. Is Hans Richter a good name? 113 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,120 MAN: Hans Richter died in 1970... In the 1970s. 114 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,680 Do you want to give me a kiss? No. 115 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,280 (IN CHARACTER) I have wanted to kiss you for some time. 116 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:38,520 (IN CHARACTER) I have wanted to I would have been 15 when you died. 117 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,080 I would have been 15 when you died. 118 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:41,960 Please, sir, come. 119 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,000 Come here. (LAUGHTER) 120 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:44,240 Come here. Ha, ha, ha, ha! 121 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,000 Ha, ha, ha, ha! 122 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,200 She is never not in role-play 123 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,040 or part of a broader artwork. 124 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,480 She's kind of living the artwork. 125 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:54,680 She's kind of living the artwork. She was a strange girl. 126 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,280 She was a strange girl. 127 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,680 Hm. From a... 128 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,480 From a different family. They were different. Hm. 129 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,920 MULDOON: Her actual personal story is pretty exotic itself. 130 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:13,160 MULDOON: Her actual personal story Born in America. 131 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:14,560 Born in America. 132 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,680 Her dad is a scientist, and her mum's an artist. 133 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,760 WOMAN: By the time she was 17 months, I made play-dough. 134 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,760 And she sculpted every day from the time she was 17 months old. 135 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,080 And then I did paintings of her every day. 136 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:32,360 So she was totally immersed in art, continuously. And then I did paintings of her every day. 137 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,840 So she was totally immersed in art, continuously. 138 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,800 Our home was always an artwork. 139 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:40,040 So it's no surprise that Our home was always an artwork. 140 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,920 So it's no surprise that I do installation art. 141 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:43,160 It completely comes from the insane So it's no surprise that I do installation art. 142 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,040 It completely comes from the insane 143 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:50,160 and magical and very beautiful interiors that I grew up in. 144 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,600 And then she moves to Guam when she's five, 145 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:00,840 which is an incredibly remote island with a giant American military base 146 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:02,680 in the Pacific Ocean. 147 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,840 My father was super calm. 148 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:08,400 He was a scientist. Astrophysics. 149 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,880 He worked at RAND Corporation in the think tank. 150 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,440 They were the ones really strategizing 151 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,680 and designing the technology to take over the world. 152 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,880 On paper, you would think that my dad was in the CIA. 153 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,560 You know, why were we in Guam? Really? Why were we in Guam? 154 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:28,800 You know, why were we in Guam? That was such a strange choice. 155 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,680 That was such a strange choice. 156 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,680 But I really don't think he was. 157 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,280 This is what it looks like on the island of Guam. 158 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:38,520 This is what it looks like It's very beautiful. 159 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,440 It's very beautiful. 160 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:45,040 She was in Guam from five years old to 17. 161 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,800 Going to Guam is the best thing that ever could have happened to her. 162 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:50,080 This was a totally different culture. Going to Guam is the best thing that ever could have happened to her. 163 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,440 This was a totally different culture. 164 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:59,200 There was a lot of suspicion towards white people, understandably. 165 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,560 I had to adapt. I had to learn how to connect with people 166 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,080 that saw me as different or saw me as an outsider. 167 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,000 This is wonderful preparation for life. 168 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:16,160 It allows her to have an insight, a real experience. 169 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:16,400 It allows her to have an insight, It made her very brave 170 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,520 It made her very brave 171 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,600 and able to go out into the world... 172 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,760 ..in a very unique way. 173 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,680 WOMAN: She lost her dad when she was 17, 174 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:33,960 and she came to the United States and was on her own. WOMAN: She lost her dad when she was 17, 175 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,680 and she came to the United States and was on her own. 176 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,360 The timing couldn't have been worse. 177 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:46,080 He died, and then she was getting on a plane two months later 178 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:46,320 He died, and then she was to go to college. 179 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:47,400 to go to college. 180 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,240 Oh, Lloyd. (LAUGHS) 181 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,400 Yeah, that was hard. I really loved my dad. 182 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,520 Alright. Yes, we are on Australian Story and I'm crying. 183 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:02,760 Alright. Yes, we are (LAUGHS) 184 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,480 (LAUGHS) 185 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,000 Oh, God. 186 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,640 Yeah. So, yeah, I lost my dad really early, 187 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,920 and I haven't even cried about him in forever. 188 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,280 I think seeing someone you love die 189 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:16,520 changes your perspective I think seeing someone you love die 190 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,000 changes your perspective on your own life. 191 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,480 I thought, "This is it. We're only here for a short time. 192 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:22,720 I thought, "This is it. "We have to live our dream." 193 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:24,760 "We have to live our dream." 194 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,400 I was expecting her to become an architect 195 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:29,640 and have a PhD. I was expecting her to become an architect 196 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,640 and have a PhD. 197 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,800 You know, I really expected her to follow her dad's footsteps 198 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:36,080 You know, I really expected her to follow her dad's footsteps because she was a candidate for that. 199 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,400 because she was a candidate for that. 200 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,760 But she took off on these adventures. 201 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,080 As soon as I left, 202 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,600 it was just this explosive desire to see the world. 203 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,880 And I met, you know, rune readers, diviners, 204 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,760 you know, people who were doing spiritual healings on me. 205 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,320 And when it was time to go back to school, I decided not to. 206 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,000 I decided to continue the experiment. 207 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:04,840 SUNFEATHER: You know, when we met, 208 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:05,080 we just started travelling up the coast. SUNFEATHER: You know, when we met, 209 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,760 we just started travelling up the coast. 210 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:08,000 we just started We had a school bus. 211 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,880 We had a school bus. 212 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:10,080 We had a school bus. And we didn't have a plan. 213 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,400 And we didn't have a plan. 214 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,800 We just let spirit guide us. 215 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,000 This is a little bit embarrassing 216 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,520 because I do not operate this way now, 217 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:26,000 but a psychic woman told me that I needed to go to New Orleans. 218 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:26,240 but a psychic woman told me that So that's what happened. 219 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:27,960 So that's what happened. 220 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,320 (NEW ORLEANS-STYLE JAZZ PLAYS) 221 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,720 It took me no time to find where the artists live. 222 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,240 PULITZER: I think I met KK in 2003. 223 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:38,480 She had no money. And she was... PULITZER: I think I met KK in 2003. 224 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,080 She had no money. And she was... 225 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,480 ..a working artist. 226 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:50,080 She chose to make her home and to create her art project 227 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:56,000 in a community within a very dangerous part of town, 228 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,000 and get to know people as people 229 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,480 and include them and bring them into the art world. 230 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,560 I actually had aspirations to open a museum. 231 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:07,800 I actually had aspirations And then Hurricane Katrina hit 232 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,040 And then Hurricane Katrina hit 233 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,600 and we lost the building as a result. 234 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:21,440 And instead, I became occupied with my house and the houses on my street, 235 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,000 which were now completely flooded and full of mud. 236 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,680 And so I went out and got a house paint sprayer 237 00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:30,160 and tons of white paint. 238 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,640 But we just decided to paint everything white - 239 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,280 the house, the roof, the windows, the trees in front, 240 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:35,520 the house, the roof, the windows, the telephone pole. 241 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:36,520 the telephone pole. 242 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,480 And this is now an art space. 243 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,200 So then I invited an artist to come in and create a work. 244 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:50,600 She started utilising other derelict houses in that same block, 245 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,160 and she was working with international artists 246 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:54,400 and she was working with who she would bring in. 247 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:55,880 who she would bring in. 248 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:56,120 And each artist was sort of who she would bring in. 249 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,360 And each artist was sort of given their own house 250 00:10:59,360 --> 00:10:59,600 And each artist was sort of to make an art project with. 251 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,320 to make an art project with. 252 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,960 I would say the work that's happened in this house 253 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,880 has been about kind of coming to peace 254 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,800 with return to the natural state of New Orleans. 255 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,120 The art writers came out 256 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,200 and suddenly there was a buzz and people were interested. 257 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:25,680 Instead of an object sitting in a neighbourhood as public art, 258 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:28,280 the neighbourhood became the public art. 259 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:28,560 the neighbourhood became the public art. She's recreating the entire floor of the house... 260 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:31,040 She's recreating the entire floor of the house... 261 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,680 So it was a very rich experience that she created in this city, 262 00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:40,080 something that no-one else had done, to my knowledge, previously. 263 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,080 It was difficult for some people in the neighbourhood. 264 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,440 But she opened the door for her neighbours to participate, 265 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:50,680 But she opened the door and there were some that wanted to, 266 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:52,680 and there were some that wanted to, 267 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:54,960 and there may have been some who didn't want to. 268 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,640 I think that New Orleans nurtured her soul 269 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,800 in a way that she didn't expect it to. 270 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,120 And she ended up starting a school in New Orleans 271 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:10,360 And she ended up starting a school called the Material Institute, 272 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,320 called the Material Institute, 273 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,280 to give back to the people that gave to her. 274 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:15,520 So there's that option. to give back to the people that gave to her. 275 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,480 So there's that option. 276 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,000 Or we can take one of these sticks. 277 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,880 She loves New Orleans. That's like a second home to her. 278 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:25,120 She loves New Orleans. That's like a second home to her. Um, anyway, 279 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:26,600 Um, anyway, 280 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,760 she went to an art festival in Switzerland and met David. 281 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,960 He had these thick glasses on. 282 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,680 He looked extremely intelligent. 283 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,240 And I was impressed. 284 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,760 (LAUGHS) I was like, "Who are you? You are so fascinating." 285 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,840 But then he got shy and left. 286 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,600 But one of his friends did his work 287 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,760 and came and invited me to dinner and... 288 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:53,000 and came and invited me And then that was that. 289 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,120 And then that was that. 290 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:58,640 She was smitten. 291 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,160 You know, she had found somebody that was her intellectual equal, 292 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,160 and that was rare for her. 293 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,280 WOMAN: David's a Tassie boy from the northern suburbs. 294 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:11,520 WOMAN: David's a Tassie boy Didn't go to posh schools. 295 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,760 Didn't go to posh schools. 296 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,400 He made his fortune by being a mathematician, 297 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:17,640 creating systems and processes He made his fortune by being a mathematician, 298 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,560 creating systems and processes 299 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:24,240 that enable acquisition of wealth 300 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:24,440 that enable acquisition of wealth through gambling, to begin with, 301 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,600 through gambling, to begin with, 302 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:27,840 and then through through gambling, to begin with, 303 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,440 and then through collecting artworks. 304 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,280 And he's created MONA museum in Tasmania. 305 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,000 REPORTER: The Museum of Old and New Art 306 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,520 was described by its founder, David Walsh, 307 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,080 as a subversive adult Disneyland. 308 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,840 I can only be with a very powerful man. 309 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,760 I'm kind of not interested in the other ones. 310 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,200 You know, I need a big, strong man. 311 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,880 I need a man who's a little more powerful than me, 312 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:52,120 I need a man who's a little smarter, a little richer. 313 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,080 a little smarter, a little richer. 314 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,440 The power differential serves us at home 315 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,360 because I'm very traditional, in a way. 316 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,080 And I think I...I think I need that to feel feminine. 317 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:07,360 Maybe that's really wrong, but it's how I feel. And I think I...I think I need that to feel feminine. 318 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,680 Maybe that's really wrong, but it's how I feel. 319 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:17,840 It comes as absolutely no surprise to me whatsoever 320 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,600 that David will not be appearing in this show. 321 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:20,840 that David will not be appearing in this show. He hates talking about himself. 322 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,680 He hates talking about himself. 323 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,080 Television's not his bag. 324 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,560 The menu is a full page, right? 325 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,160 Menu, and then images... 326 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,800 MAN: When she arrived in Australia there was reporting early on 327 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,080 that she'd been involved in an art project in New Orleans 328 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:38,360 which involved some sort of property which she had control over, that she'd been involved in an art project in New Orleans 329 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,440 which involved some sort of property which she had control over, 330 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:42,680 which involved some sort of property over which some taxes were not paid. 331 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,640 over which some taxes were not paid. 332 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,360 I inherited the penalties, basically, to the previous owner. 333 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,240 But I had no means or intention of paying them. 334 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,760 I just wanted to use the houses for art. 335 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,280 PULITZER: She didn't really perhaps understand 336 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,440 what needed to be done with her properties 337 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:03,680 that she had in New Orleans, with her properties 338 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,440 that she had in New Orleans, 339 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,200 and maybe didn't tend to them 340 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:07,440 and maybe didn't tend to them in the way that she could have or SHOULD have. 341 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,040 in the way that she could have or SHOULD have. 342 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:11,280 in the way that she could have And she got some slack. 343 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,120 And she got some slack. 344 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,720 Smaller versions of the images and the names... 345 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:15,960 Smaller versions of the images Now I land in Tasmania, 346 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:17,120 Now I land in Tasmania, 347 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:17,360 and I have all of these people Now I land in Tasmania, 348 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,320 and I have all of these people that I've never met 349 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:19,560 just looking at me like... and I have all of these people that I've never met 350 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:20,840 just looking at me like... 351 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,120 (GASPS) ..David Walsh's, you know, 352 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,320 dubious new tax-dodger wife. 353 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:26,520 dubious new tax-dodger wife. That needs editing. 354 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:27,960 That needs editing. 355 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,120 And I was inexperienced with negative press. 356 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,000 I just felt like my whole world was falling apart. 357 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:35,240 I just felt like It was terrible. 358 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,080 It was terrible. 359 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,840 MAN: We need to start chopping the vegetables first. 360 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,000 Does everyone feel comfortable using knives? 361 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,720 (CHILDREN ASSENT) 362 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:44,960 (CHILDREN ASSENT) We're in Material Institute in our new 24 Carrot Garden Cafe. 363 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,280 We're in Material Institute in our new 24 Carrot Garden Cafe. 364 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:55,840 It's just a learning space where kids cook and serve food. 365 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,880 It was born out of my work in New Orleans. 366 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:58,120 It was born out of (CONTINUES INSTRUCTING) 367 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,360 (CONTINUES INSTRUCTING) 368 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,520 It was a big thing to move to Tasmania. 369 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:04,760 But I was at a stage in my life 370 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,440 where my priority was to build a family. 371 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:07,680 where my priority I just really wanted to be a mother. 372 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,960 I just really wanted to be a mother. 373 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,640 Now I have a husband and a daughter, and his daughters. 374 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,880 I knew it would be an enormous sacrifice 375 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,560 and would definitely interfere with my work. 376 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:20,800 and would definitely interfere And it absolutely has. 377 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,640 And it absolutely has. 378 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:23,920 But I love it. 379 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,000 It's good for us. It's good for David and I. 380 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,520 We love her together. It's really beautiful. 381 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,280 So what I want you to do is take your lavender flower 382 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:32,520 So what I want you to do and pop it into the water... 383 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,320 and pop it into the water... 384 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,920 PULITZER: I think that her becoming a mother 385 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,200 has made her more grounded 386 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,680 and more, dare I say, responsible. 387 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:46,920 OK, ready? 388 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:47,160 But actually OK, ready? 389 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,960 But actually more welcoming to the world, 390 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,480 because she's had to change her ways. 391 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,320 (LAUGHS) That's so refreshing. 392 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,200 Ugh! It got in my glasses. 393 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,560 For the past year, I've been the artistic director 394 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:03,840 For the past year, I've been the artistic director of Bleach Festival on the Gold Coast. 395 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,520 of Bleach Festival on the Gold Coast. 396 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,000 We invited Kirsha to bring the Ladies Lounge up to Queensland. 397 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,960 The Gold Coast is a hotbed of masculinity, 398 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,320 and the beaches are full of raw muscle. 399 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,920 And of course, that makes the Ladies Lounge more exciting. 400 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,000 It's a big production. 401 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,240 There were times when I did call her and say, 402 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,240 "Look, we are so far over budget, can we maybe do something else?" 403 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:29,520 And, inevitably, I'd put the phone down "Look, we are so far over budget, can we maybe do something else?" 404 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,080 And, inevitably, I'd put the phone down 405 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:31,320 and I'd agreed to more things. I'd put the phone down 406 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,000 and I'd agreed to more things. 407 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,240 MAN: We're here today on behalf of all men, 408 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,800 to apologise for many centuries of pain, oppression and suffering. 409 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,400 (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 410 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,160 I'm definitely an aesthetic dictator. 411 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:45,400 I'm definitely Absolutely. I know when it's right. 412 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,200 Absolutely. I know when it's right. 413 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:48,440 There is an avenue for men to come Absolutely. I know when it's right. 414 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,920 There is an avenue for men to come in, but they come in as a butler. 415 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:52,160 There is an avenue for men to come I do probably count on my team. 416 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,680 I do probably count on my team. 417 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,560 They could get burnt-out 418 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,720 because when I get into the zone with the work, 419 00:17:59,720 --> 00:17:59,960 because when I get into the zone I'm focused on it and I won't stop. 420 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:02,760 I'm focused on it and I won't stop. 421 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,200 And with the left arm, 422 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,040 you're going to take the baby. 423 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,640 And don't drop the baby. 424 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,320 Kirsha is just uncompromising. 425 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,080 And it's very easy to call that person difficult to work with 426 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,240 or a diva or whatever, 427 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,800 but she is so singular in her focus and her vision 428 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:16,040 but she is so singular in her focus for what she wants to deliver. 429 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:17,720 for what she wants to deliver. 430 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,680 Ladies, we have another graduate of the butler training programme! 431 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,040 And that's what good work costs. It's hard. 432 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,960 The Ladies Lounge originally came about 433 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:32,240 at the end of COVID when MONA was reopening. The Ladies Lounge originally came about 434 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,080 at the end of COVID when MONA was reopening. 435 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,960 Kirsha was going to get some tremendous art, 436 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,800 put it in a beautifully designed room 437 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,080 into which no men would be allowed except for butlers, 438 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,160 who she said would do what they were told. 439 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,160 For millennia, women have been excluded from spaces 440 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:51,400 For millennia, and women have been serving men. 441 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,080 and women have been serving men. 442 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,240 It's really healthy to just exercise the opposite, 443 00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:58,480 It's really healthy to just as a new perspective. 444 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,720 just as a new perspective. 445 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,280 She wanted to get some Picasso's in there. 446 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,920 And so she painted some Picassos herself. 447 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,640 I was certain I would be discovered, 448 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,440 and I was excited about being splashed across the front page - 449 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:14,680 and I was excited about being you know, "Scandal! Art scandal!" 450 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,360 you know, "Scandal! Art scandal!" 451 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,920 We even hung one of them upside down, deliberately, 452 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:20,160 We even hung one of them to, you know, be a tell. 453 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:21,800 to, you know, be a tell. 454 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,680 There were all of these clues around the place. 455 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,120 And it just took so long before something official happened. 456 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,520 Hello. Welcome to the Ladies Lounge. 457 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:32,760 The Ladies Lounge Hello. Welcome to the Ladies Lounge. 458 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,000 The Ladies Lounge was just running smoothly. 459 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,200 It was just this nice, quiet place for women to bond. 460 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:38,440 It was just this nice, quiet place And men were being excluded daily 461 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,880 And men were being excluded daily 462 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,000 and having their experiences around that. 463 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,120 I think most men found it funny or interesting. 464 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:51,040 One man came along, 465 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,200 and he was from Sydney. 466 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,600 And he filed his formal complaint. 467 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,280 REPORTER: Jason Lau has taken the museum 468 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,080 to the Tasmanian Civil and Administrative Tribunal 469 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:02,320 alleging discrimination. to the Tasmanian Civil and Administrative Tribunal 470 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,000 alleging discrimination. 471 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:04,200 alleging discrimination. I was like, "Yes! 472 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:05,560 I was like, "Yes! 473 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,040 "Yes, this is going to be so good for the art!" 474 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:09,720 I was so excited. 475 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,000 I'm like, now the artwork is alive, now it's happening. 476 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,920 For Kirsha, it was a real moment, 477 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,360 to be able to show the artwork for what it really is 478 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:20,600 to be able to show the artwork and what it stands for. 479 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,480 and what it stands for. 480 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:23,600 The rejection of men 481 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,080 is a very central and important part of the artwork. 482 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,240 WOMAN: There was a cohort of Kirsha's friends and supporters. 483 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:31,480 WOMAN: There was a cohort As we headed towards the courtroom, 484 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,240 As we headed towards the courtroom, 485 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:33,480 someone threw a strand of pearls around my necklace As we headed towards the courtroom, 486 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,200 someone threw a strand of pearls around my necklace 487 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:36,440 someone threw a strand of pearls around my necklace and we all had our navy suits on. 488 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,040 and we all had our navy suits on. 489 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,240 MULDOON: The performative aspects of that court case, 490 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,720 of walking that fine line between performance and contempt, 491 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:47,000 of walking that fine line between performance and contempt, caught the media's attention in Australia and worldwide. 492 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,240 caught the media's attention in Australia and worldwide. 493 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,080 I asked my lawyer, I said, "Do you think you could try to lose?" 494 00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:58,320 She said, "No, absolutely not." "Do you think you could try to lose?" 495 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,160 She said, "No, absolutely not." 496 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:04,560 And I was crossing my fingers - 497 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:04,800 And I was crossing my fingers - please let us lose. 498 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,360 please let us lose, please let us lose. 499 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:07,600 And then the ruling arrived, please let us lose. 500 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,360 And then the ruling arrived, 501 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:09,560 And then the ruling arrived, and it was incredible! 502 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,800 and it was incredible! 503 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,080 It was a dream. 504 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,560 REPORTER: The tribunal has found the Ladies Lounge discriminatory 505 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,560 and has ordered MONA to allow men entry within 28 days. 506 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:21,840 She spun it into her web of performance and has ordered MONA to allow men entry within 28 days. 507 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,160 She spun it into her web of performance 508 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:25,840 and it became art. 509 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:26,040 and it became art. It became theatre. 510 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,360 It became theatre. 511 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:32,240 They say that...that the artwork has to be reformed, 512 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,760 but I fear it's beyond reform. I don't... 513 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:38,880 WOMAN: Kirsha? 514 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:39,120 Her response was fairly typical of Kirsha. WOMAN: Kirsha? 515 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:41,520 Her response was fairly typical of Kirsha. 516 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,080 She picked up the best of the art and stuck it in the women's toilets. 517 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,920 And then attention was drawn to the fact that 518 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,200 there were also fake Picasso's in there. 519 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,720 REPORTER: Tasmania's Museum of Old and New Art 520 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,520 has admitted displaying three fake Picasso paintings 521 00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,760 for more than three years. 522 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,360 So now my husband, he's taking all of this heat, 523 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:07,320 and they're like, "Why is MONA showing fake art?" 524 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,560 They're going to lose all credibility. 525 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,120 I think she's the nightmare of the art world. 526 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:17,560 No-one takes her very seriously. 527 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,520 She's a fruitloop! Ha, ha. 528 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,320 She's a cuckoo! 529 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,320 REPORTER: The women fighting to exclude men from a lounge 530 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,800 at Hobart's MONA museum have had a legal victory today. 531 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,040 A Supreme Court judge has ruled the so-called Ladies Lounge 532 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:34,280 A Supreme Court judge has ruled can lawfully refuse to admit men. 533 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,240 can lawfully refuse to admit men. 534 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,560 The verdict demonstrates a simple truth - 535 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,560 women are better than men. 536 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,200 The Ladies Lounge and the court case really transformed Kirsha's profile. 537 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,880 She is famous now because of her work, 538 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:51,120 She is famous now not because she's Mrs Walsh. 539 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:52,280 not because she's Mrs Walsh. 540 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:53,680 They're Picasso! 541 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,760 Is it real? Yes! 542 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:56,840 No. No. Yes, they are. 543 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,480 Can I see the Picasso again? Because I... 544 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:58,720 Can I see the Picasso again? Only if you clean it. 545 00:22:58,720 --> 00:22:59,760 Only if you clean it. 546 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,840 I will clean it. But I want to see it again. 547 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,440 I'm really interested in the Ladies Lounge now, 548 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:04,680 I'm really interested in its next stage. 549 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,320 in its next stage. 550 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,760 My artist's ego wants to be invited to the Venice Biennale. 551 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,120 I don't want it to break my way in, 552 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:13,560 like always. 553 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,280 It holds a lot of promise. 554 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,240 I think the Ladies Lounge could actually be a type of embassy, 555 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,520 a space for women to work on things like international peace accords. 556 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:31,200 ZAVROS: I think she's very aware of the power of art 557 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,040 and her performance and her ability to break a stalemate. 558 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,440 I'm fascinated by disputes, 559 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,400 and I'm fascinated by the possibility 560 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:42,680 of what people can find that they have in common and I'm fascinated by the possibility 561 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,000 of what people can find that they have in common 562 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,000 and ways in which they can move forward past entrenched positions. 563 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,840 MULDOON: When she first mentioned 564 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,840 that she wanted to do the Forest Economics Congress, 565 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:58,080 that she wanted to do with greenies and loggers, 566 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,520 with greenies and loggers, 567 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:00,720 I was actually surprised. with greenies and loggers, 568 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,960 I was actually surprised. 569 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,680 I thought it was pretty bold. 570 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,040 O'MALLEY: A huge range of people had been invited, 571 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,920 not just environmentalists and people in the industry. 572 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,040 It was scientists, it was ecologists, 573 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,800 people who look into forestry finance and economics. 574 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,760 I believe we need to actually just invite our opponents 575 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:23,000 I believe we need to actually to...literally to our parties. 576 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,720 to...literally to our parties. 577 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,280 We should get smashed with someone who doesn't agree with us 578 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:29,920 so we can actually hash it out. 579 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,160 I don't think people from the mainland understand 580 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,000 just how contentious forestry is in Tasmania. 581 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,720 There are people who came together at MONA 582 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,360 who have only ever seen each other 583 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:43,600 who have only ever seen each other across picket lines or across lines in the forest. 584 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,600 across picket lines or across lines in the forest. 585 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,000 (OPERATIC SINGING) 586 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:49,240 (OPERATIC SINGING) MAN: I had a slight fear that we were going to be a performer 587 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,320 MAN: I had a slight fear that we were going to be a performer 588 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:53,560 MAN: I had a slight fear that in some grand performance art piece, 589 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,200 in some grand performance art piece, 590 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:56,440 and it might be this huge, big "Ha, ha! Gotcha!" sort of thing. in some grand performance art piece, 591 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,760 and it might be this huge, big "Ha, ha! Gotcha!" sort of thing. 592 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:00,000 and it might be this huge, big "Ha, ha! Gotcha!" sort of thing. What is the value of a tree? 593 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,640 What is the value of a tree? 594 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,680 And moreover, what is the value of nature? 595 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,120 MAN: There was definitely some hostility and apprehension 596 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:07,400 from a lot of people because this was very new. MAN: There was definitely some hostility and apprehension 597 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,920 from a lot of people because this was very new. 598 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,760 A lot of people have been playing this game - 599 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,240 for want of a better term - in their silos for a long time. 600 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:16,520 for want of a better term - in their silos for a long time. We're here to listen and to connect as people, 601 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,240 We're here to listen and to connect as people, 602 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,280 beyond our personal ideologies. 603 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,800 I am not fearless. I am often completely terrified. 604 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,320 But there is a part of me that is enjoying it 605 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:34,120 and really takes delight in the situation as it unfolds, 606 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:34,360 and really takes delight even the hard parts. 607 00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:36,520 even the hard parts. 608 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,640 (BAND PLAYS FANFARE) 609 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,880 KERRISON: MONA is a wicked place to hold an event like that 610 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,320 because it completely disarms everybody. 611 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,040 It was like an emotional roller-coaster for three days. 612 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,960 Big feelings, and then some weird art, you know? 613 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,120 And then more big discussions and some weird art. 614 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,800 I don't know why tequila diplomacy is so effective. 615 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,040 By the final night, late in the morning, 616 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,320 when the really radical performances were happening, 617 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,040 they may have already had a shot of tequila - 618 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:12,280 they may have already had at least some champagne - 619 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,520 at least some champagne - 620 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,320 and, yeah, the walls really came down. 621 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,920 It was really easy to then take the next step 622 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,160 and say let's all meet in a smaller group now 623 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:24,400 and say let's all meet and discuss this specific issue. 624 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,440 and discuss this specific issue. 625 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:28,920 Was it a success? 626 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,600 I don't know if it achieved significant long-term goals. 627 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,120 It did facilitate a lot of discussion 628 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,640 between people who have never spoken with each other before. 629 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,520 STRONACH: I think there were some people that thought 630 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:40,760 STRONACH: I think there were it was a bit of a greenwash. 631 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:41,960 it was a bit of a greenwash. 632 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,320 Some of the conservationists feel they're not being engaged, 633 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:46,480 since the congress. 634 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,920 I think there needs to be that dialogue with both sides 635 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,760 and continue to have those sides talking. 636 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,320 But, like, in a... say, in the dry forest... 637 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,080 Some people are afraid that I am too close to the loggers. 638 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,600 And some environmentalists have told me, you know, 639 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,640 "I just see you buying them drinks." 640 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,120 I'm like, "Well, everyone lobbies in their own way." 641 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:08,720 It's very difficult to compete in the Australian market... 642 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:08,960 It's very difficult to compete And I think that, because I do, 643 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,200 And I think that, because I do, 644 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,440 I'm able to actually have hard conversations 645 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,720 and say, "What does stand between us and best practice?" 646 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,240 You know, "What is... 647 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,360 "What can change?" 648 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,160 ZAVROS: Kirsha started talking about 649 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,200 this sit-in that she wanted to do on the beach - 650 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,000 women nude or topless, some months ago. 651 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:33,280 women nude or topless, some months ago. I was a bit worried when she first described it. 652 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,280 I was a bit worried when she first described it. 653 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,400 I thought, "I might get into trouble. 654 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,920 "What are the regulations around this?" 655 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,360 But, as always with Kirsha, she just figures it all out 656 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:42,600 But, as always with Kirsha, and it's all fine. 657 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,200 and it's all fine. 658 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,480 I'm the descendant of Germans, 659 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,000 who have absolutely no issues with nudity. (LAUGHS) 660 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:52,240 who have absolutely no issues And so I'm always taken aback 661 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,720 And so I'm always taken aback 662 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:54,960 when I enter a culture And so I'm always taken aback 663 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,240 when I enter a culture that has shame around the body. 664 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,560 Someone said to me that 665 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,200 in the Gold Coast, 666 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,600 the women in the '70s and '80s used to really go topless. 667 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,400 And I thought, well, here I am on the Gold Coast. 668 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:09,640 And I thought, well, here I am We really need to bring this back. 669 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,880 We really need to bring this back. 670 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,560 If there is an issue and the police do come up, 671 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,320 I think that will spark a really interesting conversation. 672 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,480 I don't know, I'm getting older. (LAUGHS) 673 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,800 I think there's less and less opportunities 674 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,520 to do something a bit wild like this. 675 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,520 It just was joyful, actually. 676 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,240 You feel shy and then the inhibitions just drop away. 677 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,840 MULDOON: I suppose, with Kirsha, 678 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,760 the dance between the serious and the frivolous, 679 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,560 it's a bit of a tightrope, that one. 680 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,000 It'll be interesting to see how she balances those two things, 681 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,640 because something can be both. 682 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,160 TANNEN: It's not easy to embrace what Kirsha does. 683 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:01,400 TANNEN: It's not easy But I think if she continues 684 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,640 But I think if she continues 685 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,880 to develop the ideas that she is working with, 686 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,760 there will be a time when the 'art world', so to speak, 687 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,680 sees how important it is, what she is doing. 688 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:16,920 sees how important it is, ..three, and four. 689 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,280 ..three, and four. 690 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,880 I think she brings people into it, which... 691 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:21,120 I think she ..brings a whole new dynamic to art. 692 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,160 ..brings a whole new dynamic to art. 693 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,120 WOMAN: Art should be lived 694 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,000 and it should be something that is experiential. 695 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,520 Bring your body to the event, bring your whole self. 696 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,160 And also really challenges what our idea of art is. 697 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:31,400 And also really challenges Wow! 698 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,720 Wow! 699 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,520 I myself am baffled, 700 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,240 you know, a good portion of the time where I'm like, "Is this art?" 701 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:38,480 you know, a good portion of the time You know, "Does this count for art?" 702 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,200 You know, "Does this count for art?" 703 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,080 But it does tend to come around, and I realise, "Yes, this is art." 704 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:45,320 But it does tend to come around, I make life art. 705 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:46,920 I make life art. 706 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,760 Walking with all of those women on the beach, 707 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,200 this feeling that it's just us, it's our space, 708 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,120 it just took on this quality of a ritual. 709 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,360 And it was so transcendent and beautiful. 710 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,080 I just felt like, "Yes, this is the power of art." 711 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,440 We sang Ave Nanansuus, which is... 712 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,280 (LAUGHS) 713 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,320 (OUT OF CHARACTER) This one's gonna get me. OK. 714 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:27,560 (OUT OF CHARACTER) # Ave... # 715 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,400 # Ave... # 716 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:30,880 (LAUGHS) 717 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,800 (OUT OF CHARACTER) Maybe everyone go. Just... You go away, Marissa. 718 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:34,040 (OUT OF CHARACTER) Maybe everyone go. # Ave... # 719 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,520 # Ave... # 720 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,920 (LAUGHS) I saw you with that face! 721 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:46,400 # Ave Maria. # 722 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:49,560 Oh, thank you! 723 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,720 It's been such a pleasure to be on your show. 724 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,680 I am so excited to watch it! 725 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:56,880 Captions by Red Bee Media I am so excited to watch it! 726 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,840 Captions by Red Bee Media