The doors to the Den are open for business.
A place where fortunes are made and futures are forged.
But this time, the game has changed.
A fresh wave of fierce investors are out to shake things up
and steal the deals.
Tonight...
I'm Susie Ma and I'm the founder and CEO of Tropic Skincare.
Having scaled the heights of the beauty world,
she's now investing in the future.
- Welcome to the Den. - Thank you so much for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Tropic has been one of the top 100
fastest growing businesses in the UK.
That's what I'm looking for.
I started when I was 15 years old
with one product that I sold at a market stall to help support my mum.
How much do you want this to work?
By the age of 17, I was able to put a deposit down on a house for her
and at 21 I paid off her mortgage.
Sorry, I'm getting emotional here.
I then went on The Apprentice...
- Are you listening to me? Are you listening? - I am listening.
Because I'm telling you, I know about this business.
I didn't win...
Susan, I'm afraid to say, you're fired.
..but got an investment anyway from Lord Sugar,
and about three years ago I bought his shares back
to be the 100% owner of my company again.
When I look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs,
I want to see real passion.
I really like you.
I'm looking for that entrepreneur with that seed of an idea
that I know I can invest and support to make it something amazing.
The pressure is on and the Dragons are sharpening their claws.
- I'm Tanyka. - I'm Olivia.
We're sisters and co-founders of Cubbi.
- Cheers. - Cheers.
We're taking another entrepreneur into the Den with us.
I'm currently 38 weeks pregnant
and booked in for my C-section next week.
This is our money maker!
I'm really excited to see what Susie has to say as a new Dragon.
- I think we look really good together, guys. - Mm-hm.
Do you know what? We're doing navy, white, navy,
kind of white, navy, brown.
Almost like we phoned each other last night and said...
She's just had a baby, so I think this might be a good one for her.
Try not to go into labour!
Students have UNiDAYS.
Key workers have Blue Light Card.
And now new parents have Cubbi.
I'm Tanyka, this is my sister Olivia,
and we're the founders of Cubbi,
the money saving platform for new and expecting parents.
We're here today to offer you a 10% stake in our company
in return for £50,000.
We started building Cubbi when my son was just eight weeks old
and I was hyper aware that my salary was taking regular downward turns
while on maternity pay.
The things I'd usually do to make myself feel normal,
like a cup of coffee in my favourite coffee shop,
or a pair of new jeans to fit my changing body,
were now riddled with guilt.
I found myself spending hours
searching for discount codes and deals
to make my budget stretch as far as possible.
And that's why we built Cubbi.
Cubbi works in a similar way
to other multi-million-pound discount platforms,
offering verified new parents exclusive discounts
across their favourite brands.
Since we launched just over a year ago,
we've amassed nearly 20,000 followers on social media,
almost 12,000 app downloads and have partnered with over 100 brands.
Our app is free for new parents to use
and our business model is based on commission
paid to us by brands when users shop via our app.
The market opportunity here is huge.
Nearly 700,000 babies are born in the UK each year
and we estimate their parents are spending a combined £20 billion
during their year on parental leave.
We're now ready to scale our business
and would love to partner with a Dragon
to help us achieve our ambitious goals.
- Thank you. - Thank you.
A fledgling discount app
designed to ease the financial pressure on new parents
is the offering from sisters Tanyka and Olivia Davson.
The entrepreneurs are seeking £50,000
for a 10% share of their business.
First to dive into the details is Peter Jones.
- Tanyka, Olivia. - Hi. - Hi. - Great pitch. Great...
Great opening pitch. Totally get what it is.
However, it immediately put a ceiling on the opportunity
when you said that it's only available to new parents.
And you gave me the stats - 700,000 per annum?
- Yeah. - Why would you...
Why would you restrict it to that level?
We decided to target new parents in the beginning
because, first of all, from a marketing perspective,
it's really easy to kind of find that niche group
and target it to them so they understand what it is.
But this is just the initial phase of our business
and we certainly want to expand to have older parents
as their children grow as well.
So at the moment, what's the revenue on this?
What does that look like?
Yeah, so we do consider ourselves pre-revenue.
So the year ahead is our year one.
We're looking to generate £20,000.
Year two, erm, we will generate £160,000.
- Revenue? - In revenue, yes. - Revenue, yeah.
And year three, erm, we'll start making a profit.
So we will generate £600,000 with a profit of 190,000.
And excitingly, looking ahead to year five,
we're looking to generate £5.5 million,
with a net profit of £5 million.
And...
No, that's it, actually, for the moment.
Erm, I think...
..you've got a great idea, but you're not capitalised on it.
I've got four or five baby brands, so I know that market very well.
And in my view, erm, there are...
..loads of baby brands, children's brands out there,
who are willing to give discounts, coupons, discount codes.
But it's...
..underutilised in the sense that I think there's an opportunity...
..for you to specialise in up to, let's say age ten.
And I think you're limiting yourself just talking about new parents.
Completely agree.
I think what we're trying to do now, as Tanyka mentioned,
this is our entry into the market.
And absolutely, we're looking to expand to parents of older children.
But you're putting barriers.
You see, I think if I was to advise you,
I would say, "Open the barriers up, guys.
"You be the number one stop shop for discount codes for baby brands."
So our brands on board are much broader than just baby and kids.
That's such a small element of our...
We want to offer discounts across everything.
So whether it's your takeaway or your jeans for you
or your new computer, it's anything...
Complicated. Too complicated.
Well, it's a model that works already for student discounts.
You're foc... With all due respect, you're focusing on newborn babies
and you're talking about everything.
- You see... - No, they're focusing on new mums.
We're not focusing on new babies.
We're focusing on that period of time where a new mum has had a baby,
she's lost who she is, she can't go to her favourite coffee shop,
she's feeling guilty about buying a pair of jeans.
So although we know we're not solving the problem in its entirety,
we're sort of lightning the load for new parents.
I can completely relate to that.
New mums want to know about, I don't know,
a discount off a yoga app they can download to help them feel better.
- Clothing... - It's about wellbeing.
..that sucks you in a little bit and makes you feel more confident.
There's so much. Getting your hair done, getting your make-up done.
- You've only just come out with that. - I thought I did in my pitch, but...
I love this, I love that it's for new mums. I really, really do.
You've got some very ambitious targets for the next few years,
which I love.
Tell me how you're going to be going
to 5.5 million in revenue in year five.
Yes. In year three, we're going to look to open up our platform
to parents of older children.
And we estimate about 35% to 45% of parents will stay on with us.
We're looking to do it at that stage because at that point
we feel like we'll have a significant amount of brands
where the value for new parents makes sense for them
to want to continue on our platform.
Amazing.
Tanyka, Olivia, I really like the concept
and I think you're right to be focusing on that new parent niche,
especially at the beginning.
So if you get the £50,000 today...
- Yeah. - ..what are you planning to spend it on?
So majority of that will go on marketing.
So we've seen really good traction on social media,
Instagram specifically.
So we would like to try and transfer that over to TikTok
and make, you know, make use of other social media platforms.
And then outside of that, we think...
We've already started some conversations with the NHS.
If we could find a way to get in their leaflet packs
and just get in front of new parents
at that point in time that they are finding out about their baby,
that would give us the reach that we really need in terms of numbers.
- OK. - Could I could I ask you a question?
No, because I've been desperate to get in there!
Can I just ask, because both of you, you've answered your questions
really eloquently and really knowledgeably.
What industries are you currently in?
What industry are you in at the moment?
- I work in financial services. - Financial services.
I work in the world's biggest e-commerce platform
and I'm in engineering project management.
Well, that starts explaining it
because, you know, you clearly have an in-depth knowledge of...
You haven't just thought,
"Oh, this is a great idea," and working out how you do it.
You clearly know, erm, how to how to do it.
This is like a movie, this is.
This is like a movie with no script
and you have another job and you've got a dream.
But at the end of the day, back to reality.
And the reality tells me you're going to need a lot of money.
I don't think we will.
We know how much money we think we'll need
and this is why we focused on a small niche.
This discounts element of our business
has super high profit margins.
You're fantastic.
But the reality is, how do we...
- ..take this from where it is today to a proper business? - Yeah.
And how do you take that leap
and commit yourself full-time to this?
- You have to take the leap and... - And we're ready to do that now.
Yeah, we are doing... The thing is...
The reason that we haven't grown more
is because we don't have the time.
So we both need to focus on this full-time.
- And we are going to do that. - And we're going to do that.
- So are you both leaving your jobs to do this? - Yes. - Yes. - Are you?
Wow. That's massive commitment.
A massive risk.
We know that, but I think in a year's time,
if we're still in this place here
because we haven't been able to put the hours in to make it something,
I will kick myself.
But I would never want to put anybody in that position.
If they're going to give up their job because they believe in it
and they're struggling at the back end, that's not what I want.
Touker, whether you invest or not, we're giving up our job.
We're going to raise money for this business
and we're going to deliver it. So you can either be in it or not!
- And also... - Yeah!
Absolutely right!
Guys, I'm going to cut across here because you just made my mind up.
Listen, you two are really, really, really good.
- Thank you. - Thank you.
IMITATING WHIP CRACK
And so I am going to make you an offer.
And I absolutely assure you it's down to you two.
So you've asked for £50,000 for 10% of the business.
I'm going to offer you all of the money...
..and I want 20% of the business.
- You're very early stage. - Yes. - Yeah.
Tanyka and Olivia, I'm going to follow on straight away
because you are both incredibly, incredibly good.
- Thank you. - Thank you.
However, this is not sort of what I would class
as my sort of wheelhouse.
- OK. - So I'm going to say that I'm out.
Erm...
This is going to take quite a few years.
It's not a 12-month project.
You're not going to wave a magic wand and change it.
- And for that reason, I'm out. - OK. - Thank you, Touker.
Tanyka, Olivia, I've really enjoyed watching this. It's been so fun.
And I think I've sat here trying to figure out
whether I want to invest or I just want to be your friend.
But 50K is a lot of money to spend on a friend.
So, for that reason, I'm going to say that I'm out.
But I wish you the very, very best for the future.
And I feel so proud of you, even though I don't really know you.
- So well done. - Thank you. - Thank you.
I think you're amazing, I really do.
And, you know, when I look at what you're trying to do,
it reminds me of how I first started in business.
And sometimes you do have to put absolutely everything on the line
in order to chase your dreams.
And I would love to support you in that journey.
And in my good...
My...
Sorry, I'm getting emotional here!
My expertise is building a community.
You know, a lot of people think that when you start up a new business,
the most important thing is marketing.
- Yeah. - But actually, I believe in the power of the word of mouth.
- Yes. - And I've proven that.
You know, in my business, I spend a tiny fraction
of our everyday revenue on advertising, on social media,
on any of that stuff.
And we have built an incredible community of over 20,000 ambassadors
that are active every single month,
buying our products and selling our products.
- And we've literally done that through word of mouth. - Yeah.
And I think the mummy and new parent community is so tight-knit...
- It's so tight. - Yeah. - So that's where I feel I can really help you.
So I am going to make you an offer.
You asked for £50,000 for 10% of your business.
I'm going to offer you all of the money...
..and I'm going to go for the 10% that you've asked for as well.
- Thank you, Susie. - Of course. - That's amazing.
Thank you, Deborah, and thank you Susie for your offers.
We would love to accept your offer, Susie.
- Well done. - Oh, my God! Can I give you a hug?
INDISTINCT
Victory for Olivia and Tanyka.
- Nice to meet you. - Thank you. - Thank you.
Well done.
With new mum Susie Ma in their corner,
their business has a nurturing start
as the debutante Dragon proudly lands her first deal.
- What happened? - I don't know. I can't even remember.
Yeah, it was good.
And we're really happy to walk away with Susie.
I don't usually high five a competitor.
- But... - Oh!
You smashed it. Are you kidding me?
- I was being a bit sassy, wasn't I? - It was good.
Don't mess with a pregnant woman!
Unfortunately, I won't be celebrating
with a glass of wine tonight.
- I will! - Erm...
We just need to do a bit of the power... What was it?
This one. Power stance.
I'm Louise, this is Kate, and we're the co-founders of Craft & Crumb.
Whatever happens...
INDISTINCT
- Cookies. - Yep.
You add water or an egg and you make your own cookies.
So what's new? What's the twist?
Yeah. I don't know why you just don't buy a cookie.
We're lucky in the fact that we're still able
to be friends and run a business together.
It makes it more fun doing it with your best friend.
I couldn't really wish to do it with anyone better.
Hello, Dragons. I'm Louise.
And I'm Kate, and we are the founders of Craft & Crumb.
We're on a mission to make home baking more creative,
more connected and way more fun.
We're here today looking for £100,000
in exchange for 3% of our business.
- Wow. - Kate and I met when our kids were little.
Kate was one of those mums who loved baking with her kids
and was very good at it.
I, on the other hand, was not.
So many parents are looking for creative opportunities
and fun things to do with their kids,
but often they can find it very overwhelming.
I just wanted a simple baking kit,
one that contained everything that was needed
and was well thought through.
It's you.
That's when we realised we didn't just want to improve baking mixes,
we wanted to create an amazing experience,
something that felt exciting, creative and tasted delicious.
And Craft & Crumb was launched in 2016 from my kitchen table.
We started with baking kits
and then we went on to launch our bake kit party bags,
as there were so many parents like ourselves
who were fed up of our kids coming home from a party
with yet another plastic bag full of tat.
Then lockdown happened
and of course baking became the nation's favourite pastime.
Our business boomed.
We moved into a fulfilment centre
and launched into John Lewis, Ocado and Selfridges.
In the past two weeks, we have just launched into 230 Tesco stores
on their Accelerator scheme, which is a major milestone for us.
Thank you very much.
We'd like to invite two of you to come and decorate a biscuit.
- What about our guest Dragon? - I'd love to.
As someone who never bakes!
So who's going to come and join Susie?
- All right, I'll do it. - Let's do it, Steven. - Right, I'll do it.
A children's home baking kit with clever crafting added in
is the offering from Kate Horne and Louise Nicholson.
This is my art A-level.
It's quite nice to have those two quiet for a minute!
The entrepreneurs are seeking £100,000...
Deborah, I've finished.
That's amazing.
I'm never eating that.
That's going to be framed and that's going on my wall.
And that's a happy face cos we're all happy to be in the Den.
..in exchange for a 3% share in their business.
Oh, wait. Hang on a second. Hang on a second.
Let's see. What have you done?
- OK, sorry... - Oh, you... I will never trust you again!
Cheat!
- We do, in fact, have a little something for each one of you? - Wow.
Steven Bartlett may not be playing by the rules...
- I can't believe you thought I did that. - I did!
Steven, I was shocked.
..but a more obedient Susie Ma is ready to get down to business.
Louise and Kate, first of all, congratulations.
- Thank you. - What a gorgeous business.
I love the branding, I love the animals,
the creativity, the fun side of it.
Help me understand about the actual product itself
in terms of the cookie that is made.
Because I'm looking at your ingredients
and I'm seeing flour and caster sugar.
Do you have a range with slightly healthier alternatives
like brown flour, whole grain flour?
So, we are mums, we've got five children,
we're health conscious, we care what they eat.
It is definitely important to us.
We're not marketing this
as something that's to be eaten every day.
It's a creative activity with a treat at the end.
But what we'd love to do is have a more health conscious range.
We'd have an allergy sensitive range.
We've got loads of ideas, but at this moment,
with the resources that we've got, you know,
we're concentrating on this.
But it's absolutely something that we would love to do in the future.
I suppose if I was shopping for this kind of product,
what is the reason why I would buy your product
over your competitor's products?
So our product, we spend a lot of time
working out what that creative bake is.
So you might find our competitors
make a cupcake and then put a wafer on it.
For us, you're making leopard print biscuits,
you know, burger and chips out of cakes.
We also have obviously the craft activity
that's on the inside of the box.
And we know that our customers are quite happy to gift our kit
just as much as have it and use it with their own children
because it's premium and design looking.
So your point of difference
isn't necessarily the final product itself,
but the experience, the fun of it, in making that product.
- Yeah, yeah. - OK.
Now, 100,000 for 3%.
You must have knocked it out of the park.
This must be a great business and making lots of money.
So tell me about that. Last 12 months, what have you turned over?
What's been your net profit?
So, last 12 months,
we turned over 1,065,000 with a net of 66,000.
66.
OK. And the year before?
And the year before that, we turned over 905,000 with a net of 44.
OK. And what's the forecast for this year?
So this year, we are forecasting 1.5 million
and 15,000 for our net.
- 15,000? - Yep.
So you're going to make £15,000
and you're valuing a business at over three million.
So this is our tough year because this is our big year of scaling up.
So this year we launched into Tesco,
but over the next couple of years we intend to be in three
and then five supermarkets over the following years.
So in year two, we were looking to take 3.2 million
with a net then of £200,000.
Right. You've done well, haven't you,
to think you can get a valuation of three million away?
Well, we look to say that we have ten years.
We've been going for nearly ten years.
- Is that how long it's been going? - Nearly ten years. Yeah.
Louise and Kate, we played a game before you walked in,
which is we try and guess what it is just from looking at it.
And we all knew what it was, so there was a silence.
Actually, the silence was because we were trying to figure out
what the twist was, what was the innovation here.
And you walked out and you basically revealed
that there isn't really a twist to this business.
It's a home baking kit.
And part of the issue with that is...
..that alludes to the fact that this is an incredibly competitive market.
And so I wasn't surprised to then hear
that when we look at your top line revenue growth,
it's about 10% or 15% a year.
So as an investor, I need to see a growth profile
to indicate to me that there is defensibility here in the idea,
there's some kind of innovation here.
And as I've looked and I've looked, and Susie asked you a question,
the point of innovation is it's more fun.
Now, I have to then sit here and figure out
if that's a big enough value proposition
and a defendable enough value proposition,
and one that your competitors also aren't saying
when they market their products for this to take off.
And I don't think it is.
- So I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the best. - Thank you.
Kate and Louise, erm...
I mean, this is really difficult in terms of...
You've done really well to create a product
and you've done it from your kitchen and then now you've got a business.
You've done really well to get into supermarkets.
But I think your three million valuation is just ridiculous.
There's no question that this business is worth nowhere near that.
In fact, I would question
if it's even getting up to the seven-figure level.
Erm...
You are great entrepreneurs
and you've done a brilliant job getting to this point,
but I don't think it's an investment
because I don't think I'm going to get a return.
I think you're going to need a lot more dough.
And on that basis, it can't get an investment from me today,
- so I'm going to say that I'm out. - Thank you. - Thank you.
Erm...
So all I can say to you is, it's time to review your whole business.
Do not plan a big expansion, but caution, focus...
..and consolidate.
I wish you all the best,
but today I'm not going to part with £100,000.
So for that reason, I'm out.
Louise and Kate,
I really commend you for what you've done.
I mean, if you have a look at what you've created in your business,
you've generated millions.
But what concerns me the most
is that for a business that has been going for ten years,
you're ending with £15,000 profit.
And the valuation that you have set is not reflective
of your actual business because the profit is not there.
- And so for that reason, I'm out. - Thank you.
So I'm going to tell you where I am.
I...
I think this is a business for you.
And sometimes businesses do take a while to grow.
It can take some time to do that.
And then suddenly you wake up and think,
"Oh, my goodness, we've really got something here,"
which is what I suspect happened to you.
It started off as, "Let's do it, let's make a bit of money."
And now you're thinking, "Wow, we can do this."
But I think it's for you. You're smart. You can do it.
You've done it already.
You're good. I think you'll have a great business.
But I won't be investing. I'm out.
- Thank you. - Thank you very much. - Good luck. - Good luck.
Thank you for coming in.
That's it for Kate and Louise.
Their hard work earned them admiration from the Dragons,
but their limited profits proved a hurdle too high
for a deal to be made.
We obviously didn't get investment,
but the Dragons gave us great feedback, actually,
which we will take on board.
Absolutely delighted with ourselves.
Worthy of patting ourselves on the back.
I hope they understand how well they have done.
Yes. Yeah. A million pounds.
I suppose that's the way cookie crumbles, isn't it?!
- OK. - Green light, time to lift.
- Ah, do you want... - I'll have some water.
I'm Richard, this is Erica. We're from CompoCloset.
It's going to be good.
- Oh... - Oh, this is us.
OK.
We're trying to make off-grid toilets more convenient.
- Everybody poops! - Yeah.
There's no going back now, is there?
- A Portaloo. - Portaloo, yeah.
I think these are quite versatile, though.
They're not just for camping. Everyday use.
- Stuck on the M6... - Oh, right, in your car?
Could have done with that about three hours ago!
I'm so nervous.
Everybody poops.
Hello, Dragons. My name is Richard.
I'm the CEO and co-founder of CompoCloset.
Hello, Dragons. My name is Erica.
I am the co-founder and head of marketing at CompoCloset.
So often, we experience off-grid toilets
as a dirty, inconvenient chore.
CompoCloset is looking to revolutionise off-grid sanitation.
It started in 2020
when I installed a market leading composting toilet in my camper van
and I found it so much less unpleasant to empty
than a regular portable toilet that uses chemicals.
However, I saw a lot of room for improvement
and in 2021 we crowdfunded Cuddy,
which was the portable composting toilet
specifically designed for campervans.
So Cuddy is a composting toilet.
It uses a compost process in order to break down your number twos.
They all use urine diversion
to separate them out and stop the formation of sewage.
But with Cuddy, you actually add a carbon rich material to it
and it starts breaking down that number two.
Our latest product is the S1 Sealer.
It is a dry flush toilet and that seals waste
in a compostable or a recyclable plastic bag.
So far, the business has been doing very well
and last year's turnover was just over £700,000.
We sell primarily direct to consumer in North America,
US, Canada, and the UK,
and we have distributors in Australia, New Zealand and Germany.
We're currently looking for £100,000 for a 3% stake in the business.
I'll go into a quick demonstration of each product, if that's OK?
- Not quite a live demo! - Not a live demonstration!
A range of composting toilets
which break down waste without water or chemicals
are proposition from Richard Peter and Erica Pugh.
So this is our first product. It's Cuddy.
It's a urine diverting toilet.
And they work by separating solids and liquids
with a urine diverting seat.
Inside, there's a...
..agitator which makes it self-contained.
So what you would add is the sawdust or coco coir at the start
and then you mix it after each use so you don't make a mess.
The pair are seeking £100,000...
Cuddy Lite has all the same features,
but we took away the poo mixing
so you would pre bag it and add sawdust after each use.
..in exchange for 3% of their company.
And lastly we have the S1 Sealer.
This is a dry flush toilet and it has all the same features.
However, when you press flush...
..it will kindly seal the waste in a compostable bag.
The entrepreneurs have already lifted the lids on their products.
Now, it's time for the Dragons to lift the lid on their business.
- Richard and Erica, hi. - Hi.
- It absolutely looks fantastic. - Thank you. - Thank you.
- But is it comfortable? - Try it. - Try it.
- Just keep your trousers on! - Yeah.
He's quite tall, isn't he?
LAUGHTER
- You're riding it like a horse! - I had to reverse in!
- I feel like we need a bigger one. - Is that...
Can you close the curtain?
- Well, you've got to get the thing in, haven't you? - Oh, yeah.
- Oh, my God. - No? Am I the only one with that issue?
I think you probably want to be a bit further back in the tent.
- But it's a loo with a view. Look at it. You're good. - It's quite small.
Yeah. It's low. It's designed to go under a bench seat.
Do they come in bigger versions?
- That's exactly what we want to develop next. - A full-size version.
Cos if I was to invest,
I think I'd need a bigger version, if that's all right?
Just for you.
Hi, guys.
I used to know a lot about composting toilets
because I was looking at putting them down by my stables.
But when you're talking, sort of bits of that are coming back,
but I've lost the whole picture.
So can you talk about the IP?
Do you have any protection on it?
The specific IP within Cuddy is the extending agitator.
So typically, they would have them on the side,
and that requires a lot of space,
whereas we put ours on the front where you always have access
because you've got to sit on it.
And it extends.
That means that it's more compact for a camper van.
It's patent pending. We haven't pushed it to grant.
We pushed it to...
- Do you want to put the lid down as well? - Thank you.
Yes, Mum!
Erm... We haven't pushed it to grant.
We've filed it internationally in America,
Australia, Europe and the UK.
OK. Got it. Thank you.
Hi, guys. Can I get confirmation on your revenue and profit?
So you said it was 780, was it, revenue?
- Erm... - 700. - 705, yeah.
705, revenue.
And what's your net profit?
Net profit this last year was £75,000.
OK. And what are you forecasting for this next year, this upcoming year?
The target for sales for this year is 1.2 million sterling.
Yeah.
Erm, we're at about £415,000 in revenue.
And what are you forecasting for the end of year
in terms of profitability?
I would expect for the end of the year, a £300,000 loss.
OK. So I'm trying to figure out if I invest £100,000,
which is a lot of money, for 3%,
you know, I have to do the math to figure out if I can get
a seven-figure return on that investment over time.
So give me give me the big picture vision
of how big this business can get
and then just detail for me how it gets there.
So with the growth in the business in the next two years,
we're planning to achieve a £4 million turnover.
And the profitability there?
I would expect a profitability closer to £1 million.
So if you have £1 million of profit and I have 3% of the business...
- Yeah. - ..how much am I going to get paid as a dividend that year?
Nothing. We'll reinvest it.
The real growth for the business isn't just, like, next year.
We're looking for investors that are in this for longer term.
We want to start with this model and the S1, prove that it works,
and then make a larger model to take on like 5%,
at least 5% of the RV market.
So when do you think I get my money back in a multiple?
Is there a year?
- I'd say... - A long time.
I reckon you'd be talking seven years.
I guess all of this is contingent on this being so unique
and such a better solution,
that people will continue to choose this over the alternative.
So I have to turn to our portable poop connoisseur, Deborah Meaden...
LAUGHTER
How different is this in terms of...?
I think my question would be, in the RVs at the moment,
the toilets look a lot more like toilets.
So they're full-size toilets and they are basically plumbed in.
- They're toilets. - Yeah. - Yes.
So I think there's two issues here.
One is the consumer behaviour,
because that doesn't have the same experience.
But the second one is, and having worked in the caravan industry,
trying to get them to change the layouts of blinking caravans and...
Oh, my goodness, it's hard.
Because the whole manufacturing process is built around
putting in normal toilets plumbed into tanks.
- I didn't give you a lot of hope there, did I? - No.
So for that reason I'm going to say that I'm out.
- OK. - But I wish you the very best.
I just can't see how I'll be able to get a return on that basis.
- So thank you. - Thank you.
Richard and Erica...
..it sounds like you're very passionate about this subject.
- But as an investment... - Yeah.
..I'm only taking a three-year view at the moment.
I'm not taking a seven-year view, unfortunately,
you know, because I get offered lots of investments
and I can get a much better return.
So for that reason, I'm out.
Guys, look, you clearly know your stuff
and I really commend you for that.
Unfortunately for me, this is not an area that I'm passionate about
and I don't think I'm the right Dragon for you guys.
So for that reason, I'm out.
Richard, Erica.
- I think this is absolutely brilliant. - Thank you.
I think that you both have presented really, really well.
Richard, you're nervous, and yet you're quirky.
As a character, you'd be amazing, both of you, to work with.
I think you'd be refreshing and I'd like to be given that chance.
Erm... So that's why I'm going to make you an offer.
If you had come in here in 12 months' time
and you had your patent and you had everything teed up,
and this was a purely...
..sort of, let's say more advice-led investment,
I think the offer of 100,000 at 3% would be right.
But I do think that you're overvaluing
at this moment what you've got.
And that's why I'm going to make you an offer of all of the money,
but for 20% of the business.
Wow.
Peter Jones!
20%?
And I'd also be willing to share that.
- They wanted three. - It doesn't matter what they want.
I actually think that's a fair offer.
I tell you what, I like...
I like what you do,
but I also understand the journey you've got ahead of you.
What you've got going for you
is people are becoming increasingly concerned,
particularly people who jump into their RVs and travel around,
particularly concerned about the environment.
Erm...
You better not make an offer after telling me this had no hope!
LAUGHTER
I didn't.
I answered your questions honestly and I stand by those answers.
Erm...
Do you know what? I'm not going to make you an offer
because I can't see for me that it's an investment
that I'm going to get a reasonable return on
in a reasonable amount of time.
- So I'm afraid I'm out. - Thank you. - Thank you very much.
So 20% is obviously a big chunk of the business.
Do you have connections with the RV industry and those manufacturers,
or do you have connections of connections?
No. No, I wouldn't want to oversell that.
- I don't have those direct connections. - OK.
However, we do have the ability to open doors
that perhaps were closed previously.
OK.
I think...
- You say. - I think we're going to decline the offer.
We do appreciate the offer.
We believe we'd like to continue
to try and grow it ourselves and...
..see where the journey takes us.
Good for you. Good for you.
Do you know what? I completely respect that decision.
So on that basis, I'll have to say that I'm out.
- But good luck to you. - Thank you. - I hope it all works out.
- Good luck, guys. - You're going to do great. - Thank you. - Thank you.
Richard and Erica must leave the Den without a deal.
Oh.
OK.
The gulf between their ask and Peter Jones's offer...
Well, that was fun!
..proving too wide to bridge.
I think we would have gone to maybe 10% or something,
but I think 20% wasn't what we were expecting
as far as giving away the equity.
20%. Wow.
We wanted a Dragon, but not at that price.
I had to go in at a much higher level than they were offering.
Honestly, Peter, that is a fair offer.
- They have got massive obstacles ahead of them. - Yeah.
- So, we're here. - This is it.
I'm Tomas, this is Martin, and we're from OnlyCat.
- We got this. - We got this.
Jinx really came up with the idea. Jinx is my cat.
She started bringing in lots and lots of mice and birds
in the middle of the night and I had to do something about it.
This has got Deborah Meaden written all over it.
Do you have cats, Deborah?
- I do have cats. And dogs and horses and geese and sheep. - Oh, wow!
You've got a whole zoo at your house. I love it!
I'm feeling both excited and, yeah, obviously a little bit...
..a little bit nervous.
It's a great opportunity to showcase
what we've spent the last three and a half years building.
Let's see if they like it.
- Hello, Dragons. My name is Martin. - And I'm Tom.
We're brothers and the founders of OnlyCat.
We've created a smart, AI-powered cat flap
designed to stop your cats bringing home prey.
This is OnlyCat.
The built-in, AI-enabled camera screens your cats upon entry.
If prey is detected, the door remains locked.
We even send video alerts to your phone
so you can see the foiled attempts.
The feedback from the OnlyCat community is phenomenal.
They say is worth every penny,
even at our £450 premium price point.
The pet tech market is booming
and we've already raised over £750,000 in pre-orders.
And we're here today looking for £200,000 investment
in return for 4% equity in our business.
We'd love to do a demo of the product to show you how it works.
- Great. - OK. - Cool.
A 21st century take on the cat flap
is the offering from Martin and Tom Rosinski.
So over here, I have the OnlyCat app installed on my phone.
I'm now on the activity feed,
so I'm seeing a list of all recent entries and exits,
both from my cat, Jinx, but also from friends and family
who have chosen to share their OnlyCat devices with me
so I can keep in touch with their cats.
The siblings are seeking £200,000...
So as Jinx approaches, the cat flap scans her face,
detects that the cat is coming home alone,
and the cat can pass through the cat flap.
..in return for 4% of their business.
But now, Tom has attached a fluffy toy mouse to the cat.
The cat flap recognises what's happening
and the cat was not allowed entry.
Fashion mogul Touker Suleyman
might be more familiar with catwalks than cat flaps,
but he's first to quiz the pair further.
Right, Martin and Tom.
So tell us about each one of you,
what your background is, what your qualifications are.
- So we get an idea... - Absolutely, yeah.
So we're both fascinated by technology.
My background has always been electronics and software.
Previously, I founded a company called WOLF,
the World's Online Festival.
That grew to be a business bringing in $10 million of revenue annually.
My background is in mechanical engineering.
I'm a CEO of an engineering consultancy company
that does problem solving and troubleshooting
of vibrating machinery.
So that business, we've got a turnover of four million.
So at the moment, you mentioned that it's not cheap.
£450.
Yes. It's a premium product.
How much does that box cost you to manufacture?
We are looking at...
..around £160.
And your route to market is going to be online, direct to consumer,
or is it a wholesale model or what?
So at the moment, it is direct to consumer.
Right. So give us some numbers.
So your sales, your gross profit and your net profit.
So last year we had 352,000 revenue,
155,000 gross and zero net.
This year we are looking at 1.9 million turnover.
We're now seeing weekly orders in the region of 30,000
and that has been growing on an exponential trajectory.
- 30,000 a week? - Correct. - Yes.
So 1.9. Gross profit?
847,000.
And 339,000 profit, net.
Can we just look at your...? I think it's really...
I think it's obviously a really neat product.
It's not something I would use, to be perfectly honest.
I don't have a cat flap - I let the cats in and out.
But I completely get it. I think the price is quite racy.
What would an electronic cat flap
that allows me to let cats in and out, what would that cost?
The most basic cat flap that can let only your cats in
costs around £50.
- Yeah. - Then there are connected cat flaps, which can cost £230.
But we have the prey detection and also the camera.
OK. So let's talk about IP.
What have you got?
So we have a patent that's pending
on the AI technology and the prey detection.
And more fundamentally, we believe the training data
that's necessary to train the algorithms
isn't easy to new entrants on the market.
OK, so I've got to ask you...
Erm...
You've got experience.
You've got technical skills.
- Why do you want a Dragon? - Sure.
So we want to accelerate our manufacturing.
We want to reach more customers
and really amplify the direct-to-consumer growth
that we've been seeing.
But as I said, you have experience,
you know how to make stuff and how to get it made.
So my experience is in business-to-business,
not business-to-consumer.
That's a very different market.
But you can manufacture, you're an engineer.
Yes. But I would say, for me personally,
what would be of great value is, for example, big box distribution
to create those distribution networks to take our product...
That's interesting because you just said it was manufacturing, and...
I'm just trying to get to the... You've just changed...
It's both. Manufacturing a consumer product at scale
is very different to manufacturing low-quantity bespoke products
for advanced engineering applications,
which is where the expertise lies.
- OK. - So we've figured this out as we've gone along, so far.
And in terms of telling the story,
this is currently us wearing many hats,
putting on a hat, thinking,
"Let's dabble with creating a video for social media,"
but we are not marketing experts.
The whole mindset and know how
of how to tell that story optimally on social media
is something we don't have.
The Dragons do.
So it's that...
You want that so badly that you've asked for £200,000
for 4% of the business.
We believe it's a fair valuation if you look at our financials.
The £750,000 in pre-orders,
the trajectory that we're on to deliver millions of revenue
in the coming years.
And more important than that,
you've actually got a run rate at the moment,
or at the moment you're selling around £30,000 a week,
so that does underpin some value.
I'm just trying to...
I always have to feel that I understand
the reason somebody is here.
You're two smart guys. It's a really good product.
Erm...
I find it difficult to comprehend
some of the things that you say you're missing
because I'm not entirely convinced you are.
And then you overlay that with quite a racy ask.
And I just...
I'm going to sit quietly and see if I can get those slots to work.
Martin and Tom, can I ask a few questions surrounding the product?
- Sure. - So I wonder if there is a wider wildlife benefit?
If a cat is denied entry if it has a rodent in its mouth,
does it teach the cat to not kill rodents?
- So we can't be sure of that. - Is there a benefit?
But there is some initial data that would suggest that there is.
I have to challenge that. What's the initial data? Where from?
So we've seen a steady reduction in the attempts...
You've seen. I'm looking for data.
So this is field data based on a deployment of 2,000...
Just observation.
- Well... - Sorry, I had to challenge it because that's not initial data.
Sure. It is data analysis based on... I can...
There's an anecdote and then there's the data.
The anecdote is my cat,
who was bringing prey in three or four times a night.
After installing OnlyCat, after a few months,
that prey activity reduced to effect...
Or they're killing it over there and they're not bringing it in.
So there will be some of that. They will still continue to eat prey.
But we have seen a number of cases from our customers
where, by preventing the cat from being able to bring in the prey,
the prey has then managed to escape.
So while we can't guarantee it,
it does increase the survival odds of prey
if they're not permitted to come into the house.
Also, by sending instant alerts to the owners
that the cat has captured prey and is at the door,
that allows the owners to act and intervene and to save the prey.
Guys, I really commend you for what you have created.
I think you're both obviously very, very clever
and I definitely see scope for growth for this.
And I see success in the future for the two of you.
I think for me personally,
£200,000 for 4% of your business is a big ask,
and for that kind of money, I would need to be very passionate
about that particular investment,
and this is just not an area that I feel passion in.
So for that reason, I'm afraid I'm out.
But I wish you the best of luck for the future.
- Thank you. - Thank you very much. - Completely understand.
- Tom, Martin. - Yes. - Hi. - Hi.
I take my hat off to you for the technology that you have.
It's well thought through.
You're both really investable as individuals,
but I think you've got a very small opportunity
at your price point and your point of entry.
Very small.
This is a product that's going to be not only specific
to people that have cats,
it's also specific to people that have got a lot of money.
So I'm going to wish you well on your way
and say that I'm not going to invest today and I'm out.
Thank you.
OK, let's... Let's...
- Let us begin. - Let's get the party started.
- I'm ready to watch this.
Time is money and we've got some cat flaps to sell. Erm...
I think you've both done really well.
And I think you've got something really cool.
Deborah asked you earlier why you were coming to the Den.
To me, it was abundantly clear.
I look at this product and much of the game here is both to establish,
I think, brand in market so that any sort of new market entrants
are held up by you being the dominant player,
having the furthest reaching story.
And so it's very much within my wheelhouse.
I've spent the last sort of 12, 15 years of my life
understanding how to market products,
from a DTC perspective.
So I'm going to make you an offer.
This is going to be a great offer.
This is going to be a really great offer.
- No, it's going to be a fantastic... - Are you excited?
I am really excited. No, no, because...
We're at the edge of our seats.
It's an unbelievable offer. You just wait for this one.
Erm...
- Drum roll, please. - Don't take all day.
You've asked for 200,000 for 4%.
I'm going to offer you all of the money for...
..12.5% of the business.
Wow.
Yeah. Thank you very much.
Look, you have got a very good offer.
I mean, I wouldn't have offered...
To me, erm...
..there's a lot to do here.
Because what you need is to create the reality
to make this product accessible at the price point
that you're going to knock the competition out,
because somebody else is going to come along
and make a version of this at a much lower price.
I would definitely bring sourcing to the table
and I would definitely bring that cost down for you.
So look, this is my offer.
If another Dragon is willing to join me,
I would give you half the money...
..that's £100,000 for 10%.
Thank you.
Guys, so...
..I think it's a great product.
You guys are clearly very smart
and I actually think with some tweaking of price
that you can bring yourself closer to the main market.
Then I think you'd have an exponential change
to your market potential size.
Erm...
I don't think Steven's offer...
I think it's a good offer. I don't think it's a crazy good offer.
We would agree.
Because I think that, you know, you clearly have shown
that you've got traction now, you know, and it should carry on up.
So I am going to make you an offer.
But I'm not going to make this easy.
I'm going to offer you...
..all the money...
..and I too want 12.5% of the business.
I did say I didn't think...
I said, yeah, I didn't think your offer was unreasonable.
That's what I said.
So thank you very much for the offers.
We...
..are leaning towards going with Steven.
But we came here thinking that 10% is really our upper limit
and we wouldn't be able to go...
- Beyond that. - ..beyond that, yeah.
- So 10% is the limit? - 10% is the limit. - Yeah.
Then you've got a deal.
Well done. Thank you so much. Well done.
- Well done, guys. - Thank you so much. - Well done, guys. - Cheers.
The cats have got the cream.
Well done, guys.
Martin and Tom leave the Den with £200,000...
Let's do this!
..and the backing of a Dragon with the skill set
to supercharge their socials.
I'm very familiar with a lot of the work that Steven has been doing.
Working with him is going to be a pleasure.
- Well done. - I told you it was a fantastic offer.
Deborah, how do you feel about that?
Well, if it was anybody else, but, you know...
LAUGHTER
- Ah! - That's so lovely! I've never seen you like this before!
Don't trust me! I don't mean it!
Next time...
Tinie, good to see you, bro. I was shook when I knew you were coming
- cos I knew you'd out-dress me. - You know that was my whole MO.
Forget the investments, I was like, I need to out-dress this guy.
Being really candid, I didn't find it that great.
That's... That's not true, Peter.
If your friends and family's money is already kind of down the hole,
I'm sure mine will probably end up there as well.
- I would probably drive you guys crazy. - No comment. - No comment.
I think you're a gift to humanity.
- I really appreciate it. Thank you, sir. - Yeah.