1 00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:02,060 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 2 00:00:15,060 --> 00:00:20,100 (BELL RINGS) (CHILDREN CHATTER AT PLAY) 3 00:00:23,300 --> 00:00:24,940 LOUISE MILLIGAN: The Royal Commission 4 00:00:24,940 --> 00:00:25,180 into Institutional Responses LOUISE MILLIGAN: The Royal Commission 5 00:00:25,180 --> 00:00:29,220 into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse 6 00:00:29,220 --> 00:00:33,140 was supposed to be a turning point for survivors. 7 00:00:33,140 --> 00:00:33,380 was supposed to be a turning point For five years 8 00:00:33,380 --> 00:00:34,900 For five years 9 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:37,580 it heard a terrible history of abuse 10 00:00:37,580 --> 00:00:40,420 in orphanages and scout halls... 11 00:00:41,380 --> 00:00:44,140 ..presbyteries and playgrounds. 12 00:00:44,140 --> 00:00:44,340 (KIDS SING INDISTINCTLY) ..presbyteries and playgrounds. 13 00:00:44,340 --> 00:00:49,100 (KIDS SING INDISTINCTLY) 14 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:49,300 (KIDS SING INDISTINCTLY) Organisations apologised. 15 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:52,740 Organisations apologised. 16 00:00:52,740 --> 00:00:54,780 ARCHBISHOP: I swear by almighty God... 17 00:00:54,780 --> 00:00:55,020 ARCHBISHOP: OTHERS: I swear by almighty God... 18 00:00:55,020 --> 00:00:56,860 OTHERS: I swear by almighty God... 19 00:00:56,860 --> 00:00:57,100 It was a kind of OTHERS: I swear by almighty God... 20 00:00:57,100 --> 00:01:00,260 It was a kind of criminal negligence. 21 00:01:00,260 --> 00:01:00,500 It was a kind of It was a colossal fail of culture 22 00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:02,220 It was a colossal fail of culture 23 00:01:02,220 --> 00:01:05,060 that led to the colossal failure of leadership. 24 00:01:05,060 --> 00:01:08,340 Scouts Australia has a responsibility to survivors of abuse 25 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:08,580 Scouts Australia has a and we will honour that. 26 00:01:08,580 --> 00:01:10,260 and we will honour that. 27 00:01:10,260 --> 00:01:12,660 I remember watching those videos. 28 00:01:12,660 --> 00:01:14,900 Maybe sometimes I wish that I didn't. 29 00:01:14,900 --> 00:01:16,740 And it just... 30 00:01:16,740 --> 00:01:18,740 It makes me so angry. 31 00:01:18,740 --> 00:01:20,500 Has everything changed? 32 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:22,460 Sure has. It's got worse. 33 00:01:23,780 --> 00:01:28,300 As lawyers have taken to the courts to fight for compensation, 34 00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:29,900 some institutions 35 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:34,420 have found different ways to deny victims justice. 36 00:01:34,420 --> 00:01:36,660 PETER KARP: This decision today by the Supreme Court 37 00:01:36,660 --> 00:01:38,420 flies in the face of everything 38 00:01:38,420 --> 00:01:41,260 that the Royal Commission into child abuse stood for. 39 00:01:42,220 --> 00:01:45,460 Organisations are in a ferocious battle 40 00:01:45,460 --> 00:01:48,860 to block claims from even getting to court. 41 00:01:48,860 --> 00:01:53,780 Why has your client sought to have a permanent stay? 42 00:01:54,740 --> 00:01:56,660 JOANNE BYRNES: They lost my respect, 43 00:01:56,660 --> 00:01:59,060 and I don't understand 44 00:01:59,060 --> 00:02:03,580 why they won't just stand up and be accountable for what they've done. 45 00:02:03,580 --> 00:02:05,340 It's disgraceful, really, 46 00:02:05,340 --> 00:02:07,140 'cause what they're in effect doing, 47 00:02:07,140 --> 00:02:10,020 they're hiding behind tombstones and throwing rocks 48 00:02:10,020 --> 00:02:10,260 they're hiding behind tombstones at the victims. 49 00:02:10,260 --> 00:02:11,660 at the victims. 50 00:02:12,620 --> 00:02:14,820 Five years on from the historic 51 00:02:14,820 --> 00:02:16,780 child-abuse Royal Commission 52 00:02:16,780 --> 00:02:20,780 are survivors any closer to receiving justice? 53 00:02:20,780 --> 00:02:22,660 As notorious perpetrators 54 00:02:22,660 --> 00:02:22,860 As notorious perpetrators begin to die off, 55 00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:24,340 begin to die off, 56 00:02:24,340 --> 00:02:27,700 a fierce new battleground is emerging. 57 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:30,820 We go behind the scenes of the legal fight 58 00:02:30,820 --> 00:02:35,500 as institutions employ extraordinary tactics 59 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:41,540 designed to shut down victims' rights to seek proper compensation. 60 00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:57,620 (WAVES LAP) 61 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:13,900 On Sydney's Northern Beaches 62 00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:18,700 barrister James Masur's day starts before dawn. 63 00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:26,940 JAMES MASUR: I'm personally moved by the plight of survivors 64 00:03:26,940 --> 00:03:30,340 and have seen first-hand the devastating effect 65 00:03:30,340 --> 00:03:30,580 and have seen first-hand not only child abuse has 66 00:03:30,580 --> 00:03:32,100 not only child abuse has 67 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:34,340 but the deployment of legal barriers 68 00:03:34,340 --> 00:03:36,740 has on survivors. 69 00:03:39,740 --> 00:03:46,740 Mr Masur is one of few barristers who do only institutional-abuse cases. 70 00:03:49,540 --> 00:03:51,980 One of James Masur's clients 71 00:03:51,980 --> 00:03:55,540 is former Marist Brothers' student Ted Kawicki. 72 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:01,300 At a school in Maitland in country New South Wales 73 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:04,460 that was notorious in the '60s and '70s 74 00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:04,700 that was notorious Ted Kawicki alleges abuse 75 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:06,660 Ted Kawicki alleges abuse 76 00:04:06,660 --> 00:04:10,580 by a long-dead brother of the Catholic order. 77 00:04:14,100 --> 00:04:18,380 TED KAWICKI: That place was a paedophile's paradise. 78 00:04:18,380 --> 00:04:23,500 They acted with impunity, they did exactly what they wanted. 79 00:04:31,940 --> 00:04:35,420 He's now on his way to meet up with James Masur 80 00:04:35,420 --> 00:04:38,180 and instructing solicitor, Michelle Martin, 81 00:04:38,180 --> 00:04:43,140 to discuss legal tactics in his case against the Marist order. 82 00:04:51,260 --> 00:04:53,740 Ted, I'd like to introduce you to James Masur. 83 00:04:53,740 --> 00:04:55,980 He's the barrister. How are you, James? Good to meet ya. 84 00:04:55,980 --> 00:04:57,340 And come and take a seat there, Ted. 85 00:04:57,340 --> 00:04:58,820 OK. Yep. 86 00:04:58,820 --> 00:05:01,540 The Marist Brothers have threatened Ted 87 00:05:01,540 --> 00:05:04,980 with what's known as a 'permanent stay' - 88 00:05:04,980 --> 00:05:08,620 an attempt to stop his case from proceeding in court. 89 00:05:08,620 --> 00:05:08,860 an attempt to stop his case The weapon of last resort. 90 00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:10,540 The weapon of last resort. 91 00:05:10,540 --> 00:05:15,060 They've dragged this stay, permanent stay, out of the gutter 92 00:05:15,060 --> 00:05:16,740 and brought it out there now. 93 00:05:16,740 --> 00:05:18,900 So, it's a one-size-fits-all. 94 00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:23,540 That means convicted criminal thugs 95 00:05:23,540 --> 00:05:26,580 are simply let off the hook once they die. 96 00:05:26,580 --> 00:05:30,980 These lawyers have had to deliver difficult news to their client 97 00:05:30,980 --> 00:05:31,220 These lawyers have had to deliver and manage his expectations. 98 00:05:31,220 --> 00:05:33,780 and manage his expectations. 99 00:05:33,780 --> 00:05:40,340 It seems likely that the stay will be granted on the current law. 100 00:05:40,340 --> 00:05:41,980 But, really, your options 101 00:05:41,980 --> 00:05:46,060 are either capitulating and discontinuing your claim... 102 00:05:46,060 --> 00:05:48,580 Which is not an option. ..or fighting it. 103 00:05:48,580 --> 00:05:51,740 Oh, there's no way in the world will I ever give up. Never. 104 00:05:51,740 --> 00:05:54,180 Alright. Never in a million years. 105 00:05:54,180 --> 00:05:54,420 Alright. He's dead, he rests in peace, 106 00:05:54,420 --> 00:05:56,660 He's dead, he rests in peace, 107 00:05:56,660 --> 00:05:59,260 and he leaves the misery behind. 108 00:05:59,260 --> 00:06:00,140 And the doors close. 109 00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:01,940 They hide behind tombstones, you know? 110 00:06:01,940 --> 00:06:02,180 They hide behind tombstones, Dead priests. Dead brothers. 111 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:04,940 Dead priests. Dead brothers. 112 00:06:04,940 --> 00:06:06,820 It's disgraceful. 113 00:06:07,780 --> 00:06:11,260 The Royal Commission was supposed to fix this situation, 114 00:06:11,260 --> 00:06:14,420 inspiring law reform that removed barriers, 115 00:06:14,420 --> 00:06:14,660 inspiring law reform including the Statute of Limitations, 116 00:06:14,660 --> 00:06:17,340 including the Statute of Limitations, 117 00:06:17,340 --> 00:06:22,180 which had prevented survivors from suing if too much time had passed. 118 00:06:22,180 --> 00:06:27,260 But, increasingly, survivors are now facing a new obstacle - 119 00:06:27,260 --> 00:06:29,060 the permanent stay. 120 00:06:29,060 --> 00:06:31,460 It's sometimes referred to by lawyers 121 00:06:31,460 --> 00:06:34,020 as the 'dead man's defence'. 122 00:06:34,980 --> 00:06:39,780 They come forward now and they're being told, "Well, it's too late. 123 00:06:39,780 --> 00:06:40,020 They come forward now and they're "You suffered all those years, 124 00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:41,380 "You suffered all those years, 125 00:06:41,380 --> 00:06:43,180 "you didn't come forward before, 126 00:06:43,180 --> 00:06:43,420 "you didn't come forward before, "and now your perpetrator has died, so, go away." 127 00:06:43,420 --> 00:06:46,420 "and now your perpetrator has died, so, go away." 128 00:06:46,420 --> 00:06:49,580 That's the message that they get, and it's devastating. 129 00:06:49,580 --> 00:06:49,820 That's the message that they get, More and more institutions 130 00:06:49,820 --> 00:06:51,540 More and more institutions 131 00:06:51,540 --> 00:06:51,780 are fending off claims More and more institutions 132 00:06:51,780 --> 00:06:54,820 are fending off claims in sexual-abuse cases 133 00:06:54,820 --> 00:06:55,060 are fending off claims by applying for permanent stays. 134 00:06:55,060 --> 00:06:57,580 by applying for permanent stays. 135 00:06:57,580 --> 00:07:01,900 A permanent stay essentially puts a stop to a case 136 00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:06,740 where it's considered so oppressively unfair to a party 137 00:07:06,740 --> 00:07:09,620 that it would be an abuse of process. 138 00:07:09,620 --> 00:07:12,100 A permanent stay is supposed to be used 139 00:07:12,100 --> 00:07:16,100 only in exceptional circumstances. 140 00:07:16,100 --> 00:07:16,340 How often only in exceptional circumstances. 141 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:20,740 How often are threats of permanent stays 142 00:07:20,740 --> 00:07:25,300 flying into the inboxes of solicitors? 143 00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:25,540 From particular organisations flying into the inboxes of solicitors? 144 00:07:25,540 --> 00:07:28,220 From particular organisations 145 00:07:28,220 --> 00:07:28,460 where there is a dead abuser, From particular organisations 146 00:07:28,460 --> 00:07:32,500 where there is a dead abuser, alleged abuser, 147 00:07:32,500 --> 00:07:32,740 where there is a dead abuser, alleged abuser, or an infirm alleged abuser, 148 00:07:32,740 --> 00:07:35,860 or an infirm alleged abuser, 149 00:07:35,860 --> 00:07:41,300 they are almost in every case where those facts exist being threatened. 150 00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:41,540 Like it or not, they are almost in every case where those facts exist being threatened. 151 00:07:41,540 --> 00:07:42,940 Like it or not, 152 00:07:42,940 --> 00:07:44,420 and it doesn't matter about 153 00:07:44,420 --> 00:07:50,460 what you think about the merits or ethics or morals of the defendant, 154 00:07:50,460 --> 00:07:50,740 what you think about the merits or ethics or morals of the defendant, everybody in Australia - plaintiffs and defendants - 155 00:07:50,740 --> 00:07:54,100 everybody in Australia - plaintiffs and defendants - 156 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:56,660 they've got a right to a fair trial under our judicial system. 157 00:07:56,660 --> 00:08:02,020 And this is a reflection of that governing theory. 158 00:08:02,020 --> 00:08:04,540 And it doesn't matter whether you're a good guy or a bad guy, 159 00:08:04,540 --> 00:08:06,100 you're entitled to invoke it. 160 00:08:08,420 --> 00:08:13,460 Barrister Geoffrey Watson has acted for both sides in these cases. 161 00:08:15,060 --> 00:08:20,460 Typically, the worst problem is the absence of witnesses, live bodies. 162 00:08:20,460 --> 00:08:23,580 People have died, people have become infirm, 163 00:08:23,580 --> 00:08:23,820 People have died, and they're unable to respond to it. 164 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:26,540 and they're unable to respond to it. 165 00:08:26,540 --> 00:08:26,780 Quite often you will find that and they're unable to respond to it. 166 00:08:26,780 --> 00:08:30,300 Quite often you will find that the records kept by the institutions 167 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:34,420 about the attendance of particular individual claimants 168 00:08:34,420 --> 00:08:34,660 about the attendance are themselves scanty. 169 00:08:34,660 --> 00:08:36,100 are themselves scanty. 170 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:38,980 And you'd be surprised how often it pops up 171 00:08:38,980 --> 00:08:41,660 that there are no school records of a person being in a particular class 172 00:08:41,660 --> 00:08:45,300 in a particular year or being taught by a particular person. 173 00:08:51,700 --> 00:08:56,940 One of the dead men's graves belongs to Father David Perrett. 174 00:09:00,460 --> 00:09:04,460 Father Perrett hurt so many children, 175 00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:09,340 you know, and Indigenous children, families that were vulnerable. 176 00:09:17,060 --> 00:09:20,460 On a chilly May night in 1973 177 00:09:20,460 --> 00:09:20,700 at an imposing building in Armidale On a chilly May night in 1973 178 00:09:20,700 --> 00:09:25,100 at an imposing building in Armidale in country New South Wales 179 00:09:25,100 --> 00:09:25,340 at an imposing building in Armidale a car pulled up 180 00:09:25,340 --> 00:09:27,100 a car pulled up 181 00:09:27,100 --> 00:09:32,580 and deposited a four-year-old Aboriginal girl and her siblings. 182 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:39,780 MIIMI: It was very terrifying 183 00:09:39,780 --> 00:09:43,940 and probably like something out of a horror movie, I would say. 184 00:09:46,620 --> 00:09:51,260 St Patrick's Orphanage was run by the Sisters of Mercy, 185 00:09:51,260 --> 00:09:51,500 St Patrick's Orphanage and from time to time 186 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:52,780 and from time to time 187 00:09:52,780 --> 00:09:57,540 it would be home to Miimi, her two sisters and her brother. 188 00:09:59,060 --> 00:10:02,540 MIIMI: It was very petrifying, actually, 189 00:10:02,540 --> 00:10:06,900 you know, to be removed from our family and our community 190 00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:07,140 you know, to be removed in the night-time. 191 00:10:07,140 --> 00:10:08,420 in the night-time. 192 00:10:11,140 --> 00:10:13,580 I recall those massive, big... 193 00:10:13,580 --> 00:10:17,460 ..I would say, like a European-style staircase, 194 00:10:17,460 --> 00:10:21,260 and just remember walking up and down those stairs. 195 00:10:22,220 --> 00:10:26,500 I just felt very small in that space, you know? 196 00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:30,780 During her stay there 197 00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:35,580 what seemed to be a friendly face often appeared on the scene. 198 00:10:38,660 --> 00:10:41,980 His name was Father David Perrett. 199 00:10:41,980 --> 00:10:44,620 All the kids called him Father Dave. 200 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:48,900 He had a predilection for Aboriginal children. 201 00:10:49,940 --> 00:10:52,300 MIIMI: When Father Perrett came to the orphanage 202 00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:52,540 MIIMI: When Father Perrett I can remember thinking as a child, 203 00:10:52,540 --> 00:10:54,180 I can remember thinking as a child, 204 00:10:54,180 --> 00:10:57,300 "Why do all the Indigenous kids run up to him?" 205 00:10:57,300 --> 00:11:00,980 So, he had a particular way with Indigenous children. 206 00:11:00,980 --> 00:11:03,020 He paid a lot of attention to us. 207 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:11,260 Father Dave began to abuse Miimi in her dormitory and an attic room. 208 00:11:13,660 --> 00:11:16,580 MIIMI: I remember being in the attic upstairs 209 00:11:16,580 --> 00:11:19,580 and the feeling that I wasn't meant to be there. 210 00:11:20,540 --> 00:11:22,780 It seems like 'trauma' is not a strong enough word 211 00:11:22,780 --> 00:11:24,380 for what it felt like. 212 00:11:24,380 --> 00:11:28,540 I don't know, but the feeling still stays. It's still in my body. 213 00:11:28,540 --> 00:11:29,540 (BIRD TWITTERS) 214 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:32,940 So, you were only five... Yep. 215 00:11:32,940 --> 00:11:35,260 ..when he raped you? Yeah. 216 00:11:35,260 --> 00:11:37,020 And he did it on multiple occasions? 217 00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:38,300 Yep. Yeah. 218 00:11:40,140 --> 00:11:45,020 I can recall a massive change coming over me, 219 00:11:45,020 --> 00:11:50,260 my whole being and my whole sense of safety in the world disappeared 220 00:11:50,260 --> 00:11:52,860 and I had no trust in anyone, really, 221 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:54,900 and I just went so much inside of myself 222 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:55,140 and I just went and I actually stopped talking. 223 00:11:55,140 --> 00:11:57,380 and I actually stopped talking. 224 00:11:59,180 --> 00:12:04,060 I'm acting for a number of people whose lives have been ruined 225 00:12:04,060 --> 00:12:04,340 I'm acting for a number of people whose lives have been ruined by what Father Dave Perrett has done to them. 226 00:12:04,340 --> 00:12:06,900 by what Father Dave Perrett has done to them. 227 00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:07,140 by what Father Dave Perrett It ranges from all sorts of areas. 228 00:12:07,140 --> 00:12:10,220 It ranges from all sorts of areas. 229 00:12:10,220 --> 00:12:12,020 It's not just in Armidale. 230 00:12:12,020 --> 00:12:12,260 He, unfortunately, continued abusing It's not just in Armidale. 231 00:12:12,260 --> 00:12:17,900 He, unfortunately, continued abusing children across New South Wales. 232 00:12:20,060 --> 00:12:21,540 Five years ago 233 00:12:21,540 --> 00:12:21,780 Miimi was contacted Five years ago 234 00:12:21,780 --> 00:12:24,220 Miimi was contacted by Armidale Police, 235 00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:29,340 who had spoken to other Perrett victims from Aboriginal communities. 236 00:12:32,020 --> 00:12:35,140 I want their lives to mean something, you know? 237 00:12:35,140 --> 00:12:37,820 To hold him and them accountable. 238 00:12:37,820 --> 00:12:43,740 It's not OK that he hurt so many of, you know, us kids. 239 00:12:43,740 --> 00:12:46,780 Vulnerable kids? Yeah. 240 00:12:46,780 --> 00:12:50,020 He was criminally convicted in 1996 241 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:55,140 for abuse in relation to Aboriginal children in Walgett. 242 00:12:55,140 --> 00:12:55,380 for abuse in relation He was consequently charged again 243 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:57,620 He was consequently charged again 244 00:12:57,620 --> 00:13:01,900 with, I believe, 140 different offences 245 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:04,140 against 40 different children, 246 00:13:04,140 --> 00:13:07,460 mainly men, but there was also three girls. 247 00:13:07,460 --> 00:13:07,700 mainly men, And Miimi was one of those girls? 248 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:09,940 And Miimi was one of those girls? 249 00:13:09,940 --> 00:13:11,100 Yes. 250 00:13:13,140 --> 00:13:16,180 The 40 complainants were devastated 251 00:13:16,180 --> 00:13:18,620 when Father David Perrett died 252 00:13:18,620 --> 00:13:21,980 six months before the trial was due to start. 253 00:13:21,980 --> 00:13:22,220 six months before With lawyer Alessandra Pettit, 254 00:13:22,220 --> 00:13:25,020 With lawyer Alessandra Pettit, 255 00:13:25,020 --> 00:13:25,260 Miimi commenced legal proceedings With lawyer Alessandra Pettit, 256 00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:30,940 Miimi commenced legal proceedings against the Diocese of Armidale. 257 00:13:33,420 --> 00:13:39,500 The Diocese of Armidale needs to take responsibility. 258 00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:42,100 Regardless of the fact if he's dead or not, 259 00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:47,540 they need to acknowledge the harm that he's done, the ongoing harm, 260 00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:51,380 the trauma that, you know, his victims are still suffering. 261 00:13:52,620 --> 00:13:54,860 But, despite all the evidence 262 00:13:54,860 --> 00:13:59,020 of Perrett's offending at this place and elsewhere, 263 00:13:59,020 --> 00:14:03,340 the Diocese of Armidale sought a permanent stay. 264 00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:06,620 ALESSANDRA PETTIT: I was genuinely gobsmacked 265 00:14:06,620 --> 00:14:12,660 because Father David Perrett had been charged with the abuse, 266 00:14:12,660 --> 00:14:18,420 he has a record of abusing other children, 267 00:14:18,420 --> 00:14:22,780 and I really didn't think that a wealthy institution 268 00:14:22,780 --> 00:14:26,860 would file a state application on a First Nations woman's case 269 00:14:26,860 --> 00:14:30,620 for being sexually abused as a child while she was in their care. 270 00:14:31,580 --> 00:14:38,060 MIIMI: I'm scared because I know how much power and wealth they hold. 271 00:14:38,060 --> 00:14:38,300 MIIMI: I'm scared because I know And I'm also frightened 272 00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:40,140 And I'm also frightened 273 00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:42,540 because the legal system... 274 00:14:43,380 --> 00:14:46,820 ..seems to be aligned with that power, yeah. 275 00:14:47,780 --> 00:14:51,300 And I'm expecting that nothing's going to come out of it, 276 00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:53,380 that this is going to be eight years of my life 277 00:14:53,380 --> 00:14:57,140 of being re-triggered and re-traumatised 278 00:14:57,140 --> 00:14:59,380 just to be, you know, bitterly let down. 279 00:14:59,380 --> 00:15:01,980 But I guess the reason why I'm talking to you today 280 00:15:01,980 --> 00:15:02,220 But I guess the reason is for other victims 281 00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:03,740 is for other victims 282 00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:06,220 because I'm not the only one from that orphanage 283 00:15:06,220 --> 00:15:12,180 that is, you know, trying to bring that diocesan to justice. 284 00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:16,700 In the case of another Indigenous woman 285 00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:21,980 who alleges historical abuse when she was a state ward in Queensland, 286 00:15:21,980 --> 00:15:27,620 a permanent stay was two weeks ago granted by the state's Supreme Court. 287 00:15:28,580 --> 00:15:32,100 This was the first time that a state government 288 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:35,580 rather than a private or religious institution 289 00:15:35,580 --> 00:15:40,180 was prepared to use these legal tactics in a sexual-abuse case 290 00:15:40,180 --> 00:15:40,420 was prepared to use these since the Royal Commission. 291 00:15:40,420 --> 00:15:42,460 since the Royal Commission. 292 00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:47,340 There are some cases where a stay is appropriate 293 00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:52,540 even though there is a high probability that the abuse occurred 294 00:15:52,540 --> 00:15:52,820 even though there is a high probability that the abuse occurred and that's because, normally, you're not suing the perpetrator, 295 00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:55,780 and that's because, normally, you're not suing the perpetrator, 296 00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:57,220 you're suing somebody else and saying, 297 00:15:57,220 --> 00:16:00,140 "You are responsible for the acts of the perpetrator," 298 00:16:00,140 --> 00:16:02,660 which might mean that the ultimate defendant 299 00:16:02,660 --> 00:16:05,140 is not capable of getting a fair trial, 300 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:09,700 and that's despite the fact that the perpetrator may be guilty as sin. 301 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:14,780 Is there a cognisance, in your experience, on behalf of institutions 302 00:16:14,780 --> 00:16:18,420 of how devastating this is on the other side of the ledger? 303 00:16:19,780 --> 00:16:22,900 Oh, I mean, I'll just tell you at a personal level, 304 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:23,140 Oh, I mean, I'll just tell you oh, you bet there is. 305 00:16:23,140 --> 00:16:25,140 oh, you bet there is. 306 00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:27,340 They're not inhuman bastards, 307 00:16:27,340 --> 00:16:28,740 I can assure you. 308 00:16:30,340 --> 00:16:32,340 The question many will be asking 309 00:16:32,340 --> 00:16:32,580 is why don't survivors apply The question many will be asking 310 00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:36,900 is why don't survivors apply under the national redress scheme 311 00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:39,420 that was set up after the Royal Commission? 312 00:16:39,420 --> 00:16:41,660 Why bother suing anyway? 313 00:16:41,660 --> 00:16:43,860 The answer is money. 314 00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:50,700 The maximum amount that victims can claim under redress is $150,000. 315 00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:54,820 The average amount granted is $88,000. 316 00:16:54,820 --> 00:16:55,060 The average amount granted And if you apply for redress 317 00:16:55,060 --> 00:16:57,100 And if you apply for redress 318 00:16:57,100 --> 00:17:00,620 you give up your right to sue. 319 00:17:00,620 --> 00:17:03,620 Melbourne plaintiff lawyer Judy Courtin 320 00:17:03,620 --> 00:17:03,860 Melbourne plaintiff lawyer acts for many victims 321 00:17:03,860 --> 00:17:05,380 acts for many victims 322 00:17:05,380 --> 00:17:05,620 of some of Victoria's acts for many victims 323 00:17:05,620 --> 00:17:09,900 of some of Victoria's most infamous paedophile clergy. 324 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:12,860 Some of these offenders have cost their institutions 325 00:17:12,860 --> 00:17:19,100 millions of dollars in settlements to Dr Courtin's clients alone. 326 00:17:19,100 --> 00:17:22,540 What do you think is the primary motivation 327 00:17:22,540 --> 00:17:25,340 for these institutions seeking permanent stays? 328 00:17:25,340 --> 00:17:25,580 for these institutions Money. 329 00:17:25,580 --> 00:17:26,460 Money. 330 00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:26,700 You can't get any more basic than money. Money. 331 00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:29,660 You can't get any more basic than money. 332 00:17:30,820 --> 00:17:34,500 They're having to pay out big dollars now in many claims, 333 00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:34,780 They're having to pay out big dollars now in many claims, and they're getting scared, basically. 334 00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:37,380 and they're getting scared, basically. 335 00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:38,980 You know, they're getting scared. 336 00:17:38,980 --> 00:17:41,740 These institutions will often say, 337 00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:45,220 you know, particularly when you've got prolific offenders, 338 00:17:45,220 --> 00:17:47,460 "You're just gonna bleed us dry." 339 00:17:47,460 --> 00:17:50,460 My response to that is let's bleed them dry. 340 00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:50,700 My response to that They should be bled dry. I'm sorry. 341 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:52,300 They should be bled dry. I'm sorry. 342 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:54,100 They should be bled dry. 343 00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:54,340 How much harm over how many decades They should be bled dry. 344 00:17:54,340 --> 00:17:59,740 How much harm over how many decades have the institutions caused? 345 00:17:59,740 --> 00:18:03,140 Not just the little child. Their families. 346 00:18:03,140 --> 00:18:07,260 How many suicides and the impacts on families? 347 00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:10,100 I'm sorry, they SHOULD be bled dry. 348 00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:21,380 In a seedy part of Melbourne's St Kilda 349 00:18:21,380 --> 00:18:21,620 In a seedy part we meet 54-year-old James. 350 00:18:21,620 --> 00:18:24,500 we meet 54-year-old James. 351 00:18:25,460 --> 00:18:28,460 He's living in a run-down bedsit. 352 00:18:28,460 --> 00:18:30,620 He doesn't want his face to be seen 353 00:18:30,620 --> 00:18:30,860 because he doesn't want He doesn't want his face to be seen 354 00:18:30,860 --> 00:18:33,820 because he doesn't want his family to be ashamed of him. 355 00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:40,940 JAMES: I don't deny that I'm an alcoholic. 356 00:18:40,940 --> 00:18:46,780 I've had to use alcohol my whole life so I could survive. 357 00:18:46,780 --> 00:18:50,180 If not, I would've been dead years ago. 358 00:18:50,180 --> 00:18:50,420 If not, It's just a survival technique. 359 00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:53,500 It's just a survival technique. 360 00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:56,860 When do you start drinking every day? 361 00:18:56,860 --> 00:18:59,180 JAMES: About three o'clock. 362 00:19:01,060 --> 00:19:05,140 James's life started out in a place of privilege 363 00:19:05,140 --> 00:19:08,220 where his future was supposed to be golden. 364 00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:11,060 And that's you there? JAMES: That's me. 365 00:19:13,340 --> 00:19:16,180 And that's your mum? JAMES: That's Mum. 366 00:19:16,180 --> 00:19:17,500 She's pretty glamorous. 367 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:19,220 JAMES: Yeah. 368 00:19:19,220 --> 00:19:24,140 James came from a very wealthy part of Melbourne. 369 00:19:24,140 --> 00:19:26,900 JAMES: We grew up in the Toorak-South Yarra area. 370 00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:29,340 My early life was very good. 371 00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:31,900 We had a live-in nanny. 372 00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:35,620 James was sent 373 00:19:35,620 --> 00:19:40,540 to perhaps the most prestigious Anglican school in the country - 374 00:19:40,540 --> 00:19:40,780 to perhaps the most prestigious Geelong Grammar. 375 00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:42,620 Geelong Grammar. 376 00:19:42,620 --> 00:19:44,580 From his first year 377 00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:44,820 the little boy's life From his first year 378 00:19:44,820 --> 00:19:48,700 the little boy's life set on a terrible course. 379 00:19:53,420 --> 00:19:56,260 He later defaced his class photo, 380 00:19:56,260 --> 00:19:58,980 depicting himself as the devil. 381 00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:06,180 James's legal documents allege horrendous abuse 382 00:20:06,180 --> 00:20:11,820 by four primary school teachers at Geelong's Toorak campus. 383 00:20:14,020 --> 00:20:15,660 KIM PRICE: What was done to James 384 00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:18,380 is really one of the most appalling and devastating 385 00:20:18,380 --> 00:20:18,620 cases of abuse is really one of the most appalling and devastating 386 00:20:18,620 --> 00:20:20,220 cases of abuse 387 00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:22,220 that I've come across. 388 00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:25,380 James never told his parents. 389 00:20:25,380 --> 00:20:29,620 Discussing it causes him extreme distress. 390 00:20:29,620 --> 00:20:33,340 These fucking arseholes! The fucking monsters! 391 00:20:33,340 --> 00:20:35,940 They fuckin'... Fuckin'... 392 00:20:35,940 --> 00:20:40,140 (CRIES) 393 00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:50,500 (EXHALES HEAVILY) You're doing fine, James. 394 00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:58,340 They destroyed my fucking whole fucking life. 395 00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:02,580 In July last year 396 00:21:02,580 --> 00:21:06,220 Geelong Grammar's lawyers told solicitor Kim Price 397 00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:11,380 they accepted James was abused and they would admit liability. 398 00:21:12,780 --> 00:21:17,380 But when a compensation figure was calculated in the millions, 399 00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:22,020 James and his lawyer were shocked at what happened next. 400 00:21:24,540 --> 00:21:27,740 Well, they took a look at it and they said, 401 00:21:27,740 --> 00:21:32,340 "We revoke our admission in relation to the allegations 402 00:21:32,340 --> 00:21:36,620 "and we revoke our admission of liability," 403 00:21:36,620 --> 00:21:36,860 "and we revoke our admission and on top of all of that, 404 00:21:36,860 --> 00:21:38,700 and on top of all of that, 405 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:38,940 "We're now going to seek and on top of all of that, 406 00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:42,380 "We're now going to seek to shut down this entire case." 407 00:21:42,380 --> 00:21:44,900 With a permanent stay? That's right. 408 00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:46,740 So, let me get this straight - 409 00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:49,100 Geelong Grammar admitted liability, 410 00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:51,740 but when they saw how much it was going to cost them 411 00:21:51,740 --> 00:21:51,980 but when they saw how much they revoked that liability? 412 00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:53,260 they revoked that liability? 413 00:21:53,260 --> 00:21:56,340 Well, that was the sequence of events. Yep. 414 00:21:56,340 --> 00:21:59,700 Geelong Grammar delivered this news to James 415 00:21:59,700 --> 00:21:59,940 Geelong Grammar in the days before Christmas. 416 00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:02,180 in the days before Christmas. 417 00:22:02,180 --> 00:22:05,540 JAMES: I was sitting there, and I was like... 418 00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:09,020 .."Fuck! What?" 419 00:22:09,020 --> 00:22:12,940 And it's like... It's like, "How can this happen?" 420 00:22:12,940 --> 00:22:13,180 And it's like... The case is meant to be over. 421 00:22:13,180 --> 00:22:15,420 The case is meant to be over. 422 00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:19,300 I told them that I was outraged and appalled. 423 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:22,220 In my view, the admission of liability 424 00:22:22,220 --> 00:22:22,460 In my view, was always disingenuous 425 00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:24,220 was always disingenuous 426 00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:26,500 and, really, just conditional 427 00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:33,100 upon James approaching his claim in a manner that suited them. 428 00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:36,460 Which was in a way that they would save money? 429 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:36,700 Which was in a way Absolutely. 430 00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:38,100 Absolutely. 431 00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:38,340 Good to see you. All good? Absolutely. 432 00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:41,340 Good to see you. All good? You too, mate. 433 00:22:41,340 --> 00:22:44,180 With the permanent-stay hearing looming, 434 00:22:44,180 --> 00:22:44,420 With the permanent-stay hearing Kim Price meets up with James, 435 00:22:44,420 --> 00:22:46,620 Kim Price meets up with James, 436 00:22:46,620 --> 00:22:49,500 who'll have to make a tough decision. 437 00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:52,380 Given the state of the law, 438 00:22:52,380 --> 00:22:56,620 we really face some serious risks... 439 00:22:57,580 --> 00:22:59,860 ..of the case being shut down. 440 00:22:59,860 --> 00:23:05,020 So, it's time to make a decision, really, about what you want to do. 441 00:23:05,020 --> 00:23:05,260 So, it's time to make a decision, Mm-hm. 442 00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:06,300 Mm-hm. 443 00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:10,140 So, they're making us roll the dice. 444 00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:12,300 OK. 445 00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:13,580 As your lawyer, 446 00:23:13,580 --> 00:23:20,380 I would hate to see you walk away with nothing out of this. 447 00:23:20,380 --> 00:23:20,620 I would hate to see you walk away No. Yeah, I... 448 00:23:20,620 --> 00:23:21,980 No. Yeah, I... 449 00:23:21,980 --> 00:23:22,220 I also don't want to No. Yeah, I... 450 00:23:22,220 --> 00:23:23,700 I also don't want to settle the case. 451 00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:23,940 I also don't want to No. 452 00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:24,860 No. 453 00:23:24,860 --> 00:23:26,900 But... Oh, gosh. 454 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:29,220 ..ultimately, you've gotta do what's in your best interests. 455 00:23:29,220 --> 00:23:30,180 I know. 456 00:23:31,140 --> 00:23:33,340 (SIGHS HEAVILY) 457 00:23:35,860 --> 00:23:38,140 If... If we... 458 00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:42,420 If we fight, what happens if I lose? 459 00:23:42,420 --> 00:23:44,860 You'll get nothing. 460 00:23:44,860 --> 00:23:45,940 Right. 461 00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:50,180 James decides to settle. 462 00:23:50,180 --> 00:23:51,700 Where do I sign, mate? 463 00:23:51,700 --> 00:23:53,340 There? Yep. 464 00:24:06,820 --> 00:24:08,620 Thanks, mate. 465 00:24:11,180 --> 00:24:13,620 I didn't want it to end like this. 466 00:24:13,620 --> 00:24:16,060 I wanted my day in court. 467 00:24:17,020 --> 00:24:18,820 Thanks, mate. 468 00:24:20,380 --> 00:24:23,700 By raising the prospect of the permanent stay, 469 00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:23,940 By raising the prospect Geelong Grammar saved $4 million 470 00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:27,180 Geelong Grammar saved $4 million 471 00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:31,140 from the amount James's lawyers assessed he needed 472 00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:34,900 because his life had been so comprehensively destroyed. 473 00:24:35,860 --> 00:24:39,820 But it did agree to pay him more than $2 million. 474 00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:43,980 The school declined to discuss James's case, 475 00:24:43,980 --> 00:24:48,300 but in a statement made a general apology to victims 476 00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:48,540 but in a statement for harms suffered. 477 00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:50,780 for harms suffered. 478 00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:57,140 (BIRDS TWITTER) 479 00:24:58,900 --> 00:25:03,820 Permanent stays aren't the only tactic deployed against victims. 480 00:25:06,580 --> 00:25:10,300 In a small country town outside of Canberra 481 00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:14,860 we meet survivor Josh Byrnes and his aunty Joanne. 482 00:25:14,860 --> 00:25:17,940 It's good to be able to talk about it, 483 00:25:17,940 --> 00:25:18,180 It's good to be able you know, talk about my story, 484 00:25:18,180 --> 00:25:20,420 you know, talk about my story, 485 00:25:20,420 --> 00:25:22,180 talk about our story. 486 00:25:22,180 --> 00:25:25,620 They have an astonishing story 487 00:25:25,620 --> 00:25:25,860 of what an institution did They have an astonishing story 488 00:25:25,860 --> 00:25:30,740 of what an institution did in order to limit its liability. 489 00:25:33,420 --> 00:25:39,020 It felt like they wanted to protect their own skin, 490 00:25:39,020 --> 00:25:41,260 like, their own reputation. 491 00:25:42,940 --> 00:25:46,820 But definitely, to me, the protection of children 492 00:25:46,820 --> 00:25:50,140 seemed extremely low on their list of priorities. 493 00:25:54,340 --> 00:25:58,060 The Byrnes were extremely committed Catholics. 494 00:25:58,060 --> 00:26:00,300 The family was delighted 495 00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:04,580 when Joanne's cousin Dennis Byrnes was ordained a priest. 496 00:26:05,380 --> 00:26:07,820 So, when, each school holidays, 497 00:26:07,820 --> 00:26:08,060 young Josh and his brothers So, when, each school holidays, 498 00:26:08,060 --> 00:26:11,660 young Josh and his brothers would go to stay with Aunty Joanne, 499 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:11,900 young Josh and his brothers Father Byrnes was more than welcome. 500 00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:14,980 Father Byrnes was more than welcome. 501 00:26:16,140 --> 00:26:18,060 JOANNE BYRNES: He was a priest - 502 00:26:18,060 --> 00:26:21,020 he's even more trusted 503 00:26:21,020 --> 00:26:21,220 and even more revered, he's even more trusted 504 00:26:21,220 --> 00:26:23,740 and even more revered, 505 00:26:23,740 --> 00:26:25,900 so, there was no question 506 00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:26,140 that he was an adult looking after so, there was no question 507 00:26:26,140 --> 00:26:30,940 that he was an adult looking after these precious little children. 508 00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:35,460 But when Josh was 12, in 1999, 509 00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:35,700 Father Byrnes But when Josh was 12, in 1999, 510 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:40,380 Father Byrnes began to betray the family's trust. 511 00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:46,620 Josh says the priest would go on to abuse him over an eight-year period. 512 00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:50,220 I've got a lot of emotions that come up 513 00:26:50,220 --> 00:26:52,740 when I start thinking about that. 514 00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:55,180 When I think about... 515 00:26:56,140 --> 00:26:57,780 ..what it could take 516 00:26:57,780 --> 00:27:01,740 a man to take a child that was that innocent 517 00:27:01,740 --> 00:27:04,060 and to do the things that he did to me 518 00:27:04,060 --> 00:27:07,740 knowing very well that he had all the power, 519 00:27:07,740 --> 00:27:12,140 that there was no authority that I had to say no. 520 00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:15,540 I didn't even know that what we were doing was wrong. 521 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:21,940 In 2016 Josh Byrnes went to police. 522 00:27:21,940 --> 00:27:25,980 Father Dennis Byrnes was convicted. 523 00:27:25,980 --> 00:27:31,780 There was no doubt whatsoever that he did what he did to you? 524 00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:33,820 No, there was no doubt whatsoever. 525 00:27:33,820 --> 00:27:35,500 He pleaded guilty. 526 00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:39,740 I watched him stand in the courtroom and say, "Yes, I did these things." 527 00:27:46,060 --> 00:27:48,900 Files were found in the Lismore archives 528 00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:53,700 revealing the diocese had known the priest was a danger to children 529 00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:53,940 revealing the diocese had known 15 years before he ever abused Josh. 530 00:27:53,940 --> 00:27:58,220 15 years before he ever abused Josh. 531 00:28:01,340 --> 00:28:04,700 The files made notice, made comment, 532 00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:12,060 that he offended back in 1984 against another little boy 533 00:28:12,060 --> 00:28:13,900 under very similar circumstances. 534 00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:19,540 That little boy came forward as an adult 535 00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:23,340 to complain of the abuse to the church in 2006 536 00:28:23,340 --> 00:28:28,060 while Father Dennis Byrnes was still abusing Josh. 537 00:28:29,020 --> 00:28:32,460 When Josh Byrnes used this prior knowledge 538 00:28:32,460 --> 00:28:35,700 as the basis of a civil claim against the diocese, 539 00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:40,260 he and his aunty were gobsmacked at the response. 540 00:28:42,140 --> 00:28:46,420 So, all of a sudden, I get a phone call one afternoon 541 00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:48,340 from Joshua's lawyers, 542 00:28:48,340 --> 00:28:50,140 and Joshua's on the phone 543 00:28:50,140 --> 00:28:50,380 saying there's a cross-claim and Joshua's on the phone 544 00:28:50,380 --> 00:28:53,060 saying there's a cross-claim coming against me, 545 00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:53,300 saying there's a cross-claim that it was MY negligence 546 00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:58,020 that it was MY negligence 547 00:28:58,020 --> 00:29:03,660 because I should have reasonably foreseen 548 00:29:03,660 --> 00:29:08,860 that a priest would have abused a child 549 00:29:08,860 --> 00:29:11,100 and that I was negligent 550 00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:17,220 for leaving this priest with unsupervised time with a child, 551 00:29:17,220 --> 00:29:22,900 and that I could be up for compensation, interest, 552 00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:26,460 all the costs and anything else the court deems. 553 00:29:26,460 --> 00:29:30,540 It didn't sit with me that I would have known that. 554 00:29:30,540 --> 00:29:35,140 And then when I found out later that THEY actually DID know that, 555 00:29:35,140 --> 00:29:37,660 I thought, "Oh, 'reasonably foreseeable' 556 00:29:37,660 --> 00:29:39,500 "are the words that apply to them, 557 00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:41,540 "not me." 558 00:29:41,540 --> 00:29:45,060 How would you characterise what they did? 559 00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:48,420 Oh, well, 'evil' is the first word that comes to me. 560 00:29:48,420 --> 00:29:51,820 The evidence clearly showed that they were aware of what he was like, 561 00:29:51,820 --> 00:29:52,060 The evidence clearly showed that that he was a predator, 562 00:29:52,060 --> 00:29:54,020 that he was a predator, 563 00:29:54,020 --> 00:29:57,540 and for them to turn around and suggest to my aunty 564 00:29:57,540 --> 00:30:02,980 it should have been foreseeable to her that this might happen 565 00:30:02,980 --> 00:30:03,220 it should have been foreseeable seems extremely hypocritical. 566 00:30:03,220 --> 00:30:06,020 seems extremely hypocritical. 567 00:30:06,020 --> 00:30:10,220 It just seemed like they were just not interested in people, 568 00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:14,180 just not interested in us and who we were or what we'd been through. 569 00:30:14,180 --> 00:30:16,420 What do you think they WERE interested in? 570 00:30:17,380 --> 00:30:19,020 Just protecting themselves. 571 00:30:21,060 --> 00:30:23,820 Ultimately, the Diocese of Lismore 572 00:30:23,820 --> 00:30:29,060 agreed its cross-claim against Joanne should be dismissed. 573 00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:30,820 It settled with Josh. 574 00:30:30,820 --> 00:30:34,380 It declined to speak to Four Corners. 575 00:30:35,340 --> 00:30:38,180 They lost my respect. 576 00:30:39,380 --> 00:30:43,220 And I don't understand 577 00:30:43,220 --> 00:30:49,180 why they won't just stand up and be accountable for what they've done. 578 00:30:50,140 --> 00:30:56,220 I don't understand why they can't just go, "I'm sorry. We messed up." 579 00:30:59,420 --> 00:31:03,020 As they battle their way through these complex cases, 580 00:31:03,020 --> 00:31:04,460 plaintiff lawyers say 581 00:31:04,460 --> 00:31:09,700 some institutions are more robust litigants than others. 582 00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:15,060 The Marist Brothers were raised by most lawyers Four Corners spoke to. 583 00:31:16,020 --> 00:31:17,620 The Royal Commission found 584 00:31:17,620 --> 00:31:22,300 historically a staggering one Marist Brother in five 585 00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:22,540 historically a staggering was an alleged perpetrator. 586 00:31:22,540 --> 00:31:24,900 was an alleged perpetrator. 587 00:31:27,940 --> 00:31:31,700 You are an old boy of a Marist school. 588 00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:35,260 How would you describe the approach of the Marist Brothers 589 00:31:35,260 --> 00:31:37,260 when it comes to permanent stays? 590 00:31:37,260 --> 00:31:37,460 I personally am... when it comes to permanent stays? 591 00:31:37,460 --> 00:31:39,300 I personally am... 592 00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:44,580 ..quite confronted with some of the tactics 593 00:31:44,580 --> 00:31:44,860 ..quite confronted with some of the tactics that I have seen deployed in relation to some cases. 594 00:31:44,860 --> 00:31:50,980 that I have seen deployed in relation to some cases. 595 00:31:50,980 --> 00:31:51,220 that I have seen deployed I've encountered examples 596 00:31:51,220 --> 00:31:52,660 I've encountered examples 597 00:31:52,660 --> 00:31:52,900 where the threat of a stay I've encountered examples 598 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:57,180 where the threat of a stay has been made 599 00:31:57,180 --> 00:31:59,020 simply upon giving notice 600 00:31:59,020 --> 00:32:05,060 of an intention to bring a claim against a well-known abuser. 601 00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:05,340 At their core, they talk about kindness and moral values, of an intention to bring a claim against a well-known abuser. 602 00:32:05,340 --> 00:32:11,340 At their core, they talk about kindness and moral values, 603 00:32:11,340 --> 00:32:13,580 but then this is how people are getting treated, 604 00:32:13,580 --> 00:32:16,100 and we really want to raise this issue 605 00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:20,260 because there are many people who are part of these institutions, 606 00:32:20,260 --> 00:32:22,500 they send their children to the school, 607 00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:25,900 and then do they know that this is what's happening 608 00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:28,740 when it gets to this, when a claimant comes forward, 609 00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:32,460 and it's contrary to the assurances that they've given publicly? 610 00:32:32,460 --> 00:32:35,300 And we think that it's something that people need to know about. 611 00:32:36,740 --> 00:32:41,860 Marist Brothers Australia declined to be interviewed for this program. 612 00:32:41,860 --> 00:32:48,180 In a statement it says stays are "an accepted part of our legal system, 613 00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:48,420 In a statement it says stays are "an "are available to all parties 614 00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:50,140 "are available to all parties 615 00:32:50,140 --> 00:32:53,980 "and have been exercised by many organisations." 616 00:32:53,980 --> 00:32:59,540 It says, "The Marists Brothers only apply for permanent stays 617 00:32:59,540 --> 00:33:03,820 "when it seems a fair trial is not possible." 618 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:12,580 One man who has been dealing with the Marists for a long time 619 00:33:12,580 --> 00:33:14,380 is Ted Kawicki. 620 00:33:15,980 --> 00:33:20,420 The Marists say they've been trying to mediate with him in good faith. 621 00:33:20,420 --> 00:33:26,380 They've just made him a low offer, which Ted will not accept. 622 00:33:26,380 --> 00:33:29,140 So, he's taking his fight to Canberra. 623 00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:34,780 TED KAWICKI: I was a little boy then, a little innocent little boy. 624 00:33:34,780 --> 00:33:36,220 But I don't wanna play the victim here. 625 00:33:36,220 --> 00:33:40,380 I want to go in there and expose these bastards, you know? 626 00:33:44,140 --> 00:33:46,260 How're you going, David? Good to meet you. 627 00:33:46,260 --> 00:33:48,700 Ted Kawicki, mate. Yeah, yeah, heard a lot about you. 628 00:33:49,660 --> 00:33:51,860 Ted sees the only hope 629 00:33:51,860 --> 00:33:55,060 for survivors like him threatened with permanent stays 630 00:33:55,060 --> 00:33:55,300 for survivors like him is a change in the law. 631 00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:57,980 is a change in the law. 632 00:34:00,740 --> 00:34:06,180 Parliament must - MUST - remove this obscenity off the statute books 633 00:34:06,180 --> 00:34:11,740 because that denies hundreds and hundreds of innocent victims 634 00:34:11,740 --> 00:34:11,980 because that denies hundreds their right to due process 635 00:34:11,980 --> 00:34:14,500 their right to due process 636 00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:20,940 whilst affording known paedophile criminals 637 00:34:20,940 --> 00:34:22,780 sanctuary in the grave. 638 00:34:22,780 --> 00:34:26,580 Greens Senator David Shoebridge has already written 639 00:34:26,580 --> 00:34:29,780 to the New South Wales and Commonwealth Attorneys-General, 640 00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:34,340 and agrees to raise it in the next Senate Estimates hearing. 641 00:34:34,340 --> 00:34:36,580 Obviously, when the law is misfiring, 642 00:34:36,580 --> 00:34:36,860 when the common law in this case is misfiring, Obviously, when the law is misfiring, 643 00:34:36,860 --> 00:34:39,900 when the common law in this case is misfiring, 644 00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,860 and it's not providing just outcomes, 645 00:34:42,860 --> 00:34:43,140 and it's not providing just outcomes, that's when you need parliaments to step up. 646 00:34:43,140 --> 00:34:44,820 that's when you need parliaments to step up. 647 00:34:44,820 --> 00:34:47,780 That's what parliaments were asked to do by the Royal Commission. 648 00:34:47,780 --> 00:34:48,020 That's what parliaments were asked And it's exactly the same now. 649 00:34:48,020 --> 00:34:50,060 And it's exactly the same now. 650 00:34:50,060 --> 00:34:51,660 This is history repeating. 651 00:34:51,660 --> 00:34:51,900 I very much doubt that a legislature would be minded This is history repeating. 652 00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:54,300 I very much doubt that a legislature would be minded 653 00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:59,500 to allow cases to go to trial if they were unfair trials 654 00:34:59,500 --> 00:34:59,780 to allow cases to go to trial if they were unfair trials in the sense that it was wrong or bad 655 00:34:59,780 --> 00:35:03,340 in the sense that it was wrong or bad 656 00:35:03,340 --> 00:35:08,020 or the evidence was insufficient to permit a fair trial being had. 657 00:35:08,020 --> 00:35:11,340 That would be strange legislation to allow that to occur. 658 00:35:11,340 --> 00:35:15,700 The use of this kind of procedure for a stay of proceedings 659 00:35:15,700 --> 00:35:18,660 is perfectly consistent with what the Royal Commission had to say. 660 00:35:18,660 --> 00:35:18,900 is perfectly consistent with what But barrister James Masur 661 00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:21,460 But barrister James Masur 662 00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:24,820 says permanent stays were little more than a footnote 663 00:35:24,820 --> 00:35:27,660 in the Royal Commission's final report. 664 00:35:27,660 --> 00:35:27,940 Before that, they were used in exceptionally rare circumstances, in the Royal Commission's final report. 665 00:35:27,940 --> 00:35:31,820 Before that, they were used in exceptionally rare circumstances, 666 00:35:31,820 --> 00:35:32,060 Before that, they were used in particularly in civil litigation. 667 00:35:32,060 --> 00:35:34,420 particularly in civil litigation. 668 00:35:34,420 --> 00:35:34,660 particularly in civil litigation. And how often are they being used now? 669 00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:38,220 And how often are they being used now? 670 00:35:38,220 --> 00:35:41,140 In the historical-abuse space 671 00:35:41,140 --> 00:35:43,260 it seems that they are being used - 672 00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:47,220 insofar as that the reported decisions are coming through - 673 00:35:47,220 --> 00:35:49,060 almost on a weekly basis. 674 00:35:49,060 --> 00:35:54,700 It really is a situation which is grave, 675 00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:54,940 It really is a situation and the effects of it are untold 676 00:35:54,940 --> 00:35:57,180 and the effects of it are untold 677 00:35:57,180 --> 00:36:00,940 in terms of the personal toll on survivors. 678 00:36:00,940 --> 00:36:01,220 It makes me question why taxpayers spent $370 million in terms of the personal toll on survivors. 679 00:36:01,220 --> 00:36:04,980 It makes me question why taxpayers spent $370 million 680 00:36:04,980 --> 00:36:05,220 It makes me question on a Royal Commission 681 00:36:05,220 --> 00:36:06,620 on a Royal Commission 682 00:36:06,620 --> 00:36:08,540 when we are almost 683 00:36:08,540 --> 00:36:08,780 when we are almost what seems to be in pre-Royal Commission days. 684 00:36:08,780 --> 00:36:12,460 what seems to be in pre-Royal Commission days. 685 00:36:12,460 --> 00:36:12,700 what seems to be It... 686 00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:13,460 It... 687 00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:18,660 I find it offensive on a moral basis 688 00:36:18,660 --> 00:36:21,500 that a technical legal argument 689 00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:26,020 is able to take precedent over what should happen. 690 00:36:26,020 --> 00:36:28,100 We want to have a trial. 691 00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:29,500 We're not saying we've won yet, 692 00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:32,820 but you've got to give someone the opportunity to have a trial 693 00:36:32,820 --> 00:36:33,060 but you've got to give someone because that is part of the healing 694 00:36:33,060 --> 00:36:35,740 because that is part of the healing 695 00:36:35,740 --> 00:36:38,500 and that is part of having the ability 696 00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:42,100 to stand up for the little girl or the little boy 697 00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:42,340 to stand up for the little girl that they're there for. 698 00:36:42,340 --> 00:36:43,740 that they're there for. 699 00:36:45,980 --> 00:36:50,700 Politicians are waiting until the High Court of Australia has spoken. 700 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:54,420 A crucial case will be heard next week. 701 00:36:55,380 --> 00:36:56,940 The High Court judgement 702 00:36:56,940 --> 00:36:57,180 survivors and their lawyers The High Court judgement 703 00:36:57,180 --> 00:37:00,660 survivors and their lawyers are anxiously waiting for 704 00:37:00,660 --> 00:37:06,420 concerns a complaint of abuse by a woman known only as GLJ. 705 00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:06,660 concerns a complaint of abuse GLJ alleges that when she was 14 706 00:37:06,660 --> 00:37:09,700 GLJ alleges that when she was 14 707 00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:09,940 she was sexually assaulted GLJ alleges that when she was 14 708 00:37:09,940 --> 00:37:15,220 she was sexually assaulted by a Father Clarence David Anderson, 709 00:37:15,220 --> 00:37:19,220 a Catholic priest from Lismore in northern New South Wales, 710 00:37:19,220 --> 00:37:23,300 who was known to have abused children, but only boys. 711 00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:27,060 The Diocese of Lismore is arguing for a permanent stay 712 00:37:27,060 --> 00:37:30,700 on the basis that it can't possibly get a fair trial 713 00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:30,940 on the basis that it can't possibly because Anderson died in 1996, 714 00:37:30,940 --> 00:37:33,940 because Anderson died in 1996, 715 00:37:33,940 --> 00:37:38,940 long before GLJ ever came forward. 716 00:37:38,940 --> 00:37:40,700 GLJ, in many respects, 717 00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:47,420 has frozen in time the hopes of most survivors 718 00:37:47,420 --> 00:37:51,540 whose cases either face or may face a stay 719 00:37:51,540 --> 00:37:54,180 as to whether or not there is any viability 720 00:37:54,180 --> 00:37:57,180 in them bringing a case into the future. 721 00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:07,940 (BIRDS SQUAWK) 722 00:38:09,420 --> 00:38:12,500 (WAVES CRASH) 723 00:38:13,460 --> 00:38:16,460 One survivor who is nervously anticipating 724 00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:16,700 One survivor the High Court's decision in GLJ 725 00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:19,540 the High Court's decision in GLJ 726 00:38:19,540 --> 00:38:21,740 is Matt Barker. 727 00:38:25,940 --> 00:38:28,620 MATT BARKER: I have been very anxiously watching it. 728 00:38:28,620 --> 00:38:32,180 You know, the result of that court case 729 00:38:32,180 --> 00:38:35,380 literally changes the course of my world, you know? 730 00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:43,100 It's no exaggeration to say 731 00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:48,540 Matt's own case has sent shockwaves through the legal community. 732 00:38:48,540 --> 00:38:53,700 The institution he's suing has no tombstone to hide behind. 733 00:38:57,060 --> 00:38:59,300 MATT BARKER: The perpetrator's still alive. 734 00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:02,300 And in jail? Yeah, and in jail. 735 00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:04,180 So, they could speak to him about this? 736 00:39:04,180 --> 00:39:04,420 So, they could speak to him Yeah. They could speak to him, yes. 737 00:39:04,420 --> 00:39:06,460 Yeah. They could speak to him, yes. 738 00:39:06,460 --> 00:39:08,620 And he's already pleaded guilty to this? 739 00:39:08,620 --> 00:39:11,460 Yes, yes. He's pleaded guilty. Yes. 740 00:39:12,740 --> 00:39:17,220 Matt was first abused at 11 years old. 741 00:39:17,220 --> 00:39:17,460 Matt was first abused He was a scout. 742 00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:19,740 He was a scout. 743 00:39:21,340 --> 00:39:25,140 His abuser was a scoutmaster in Sydney's west. 744 00:39:25,140 --> 00:39:29,300 Offering to help Matt work towards his scout badges, 745 00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:33,100 the man brought the boy to a lonely caravan. 746 00:39:34,380 --> 00:39:38,740 MATT BARKER: When we first arrived back at that caravan, 747 00:39:38,740 --> 00:39:38,980 MATT BARKER: When we first arrived pretty soon it just moved on 748 00:39:38,980 --> 00:39:42,780 pretty soon it just moved on 749 00:39:42,780 --> 00:39:43,020 to where he, you know, pretty soon it just moved on 750 00:39:43,020 --> 00:39:47,660 to where he, you know, started abusing me. 751 00:39:47,660 --> 00:39:47,900 I was in shock. to where he, you know, started abusing me. 752 00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:49,860 I was in shock. 753 00:39:49,860 --> 00:39:52,980 You know, I was completely shocked about what was going on. 754 00:39:52,980 --> 00:39:55,620 I didn't really understand what was happening. 755 00:39:56,580 --> 00:40:01,180 And, you know, I still have a very clear... 756 00:40:01,180 --> 00:40:01,420 And, you know, ..feeling of... 757 00:40:01,420 --> 00:40:03,660 ..feeling of... 758 00:40:04,860 --> 00:40:08,700 ..right at that moment of the first abuse beginning 759 00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:08,940 ..right at that moment of just something breaking inside. 760 00:40:08,940 --> 00:40:12,500 of just something breaking inside. 761 00:40:14,140 --> 00:40:15,940 In June 2020 762 00:40:15,940 --> 00:40:19,500 the man pleaded guilty to abusing four scouts, 763 00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:24,060 including 24 charges in relation to Matt. 764 00:40:26,780 --> 00:40:29,740 So, there was absolutely no doubt 765 00:40:29,740 --> 00:40:34,900 that your perpetrator actually did this to you and to the other boys? 766 00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:38,380 No. No doubt whatsoever. 767 00:40:39,820 --> 00:40:43,180 Scouts NSW went to the Supreme Court 768 00:40:43,180 --> 00:40:46,220 and they sought a permanent stay. 769 00:40:48,540 --> 00:40:55,380 It definitely makes me very angry when I think about their behaviour. 770 00:40:56,860 --> 00:40:59,300 I really don't think that Scouts 771 00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:02,980 have lived up to the commitments they made to the Royal Commission. 772 00:41:02,980 --> 00:41:05,340 How does it feel from a survivor's point of view 773 00:41:05,340 --> 00:41:08,540 when you're trying to, as you say, take back agency 774 00:41:08,540 --> 00:41:12,500 and the institution just pulls down the shutters? 775 00:41:12,500 --> 00:41:12,740 and the institution It's incredibly frustrating 776 00:41:12,740 --> 00:41:14,660 It's incredibly frustrating 777 00:41:14,660 --> 00:41:17,460 and it... 778 00:41:17,460 --> 00:41:21,780 ..it just feels like that any of the words and apologies 779 00:41:21,780 --> 00:41:25,700 that Scouts have made about doing better in this area 780 00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:25,940 that Scouts have made are empty. 781 00:41:25,940 --> 00:41:27,500 are empty. 782 00:41:30,060 --> 00:41:33,180 It doesn't go Matt's way. 783 00:41:35,180 --> 00:41:40,820 Supreme Court Justice Peter Garling awards a permanent stay to Scouts 784 00:41:40,820 --> 00:41:41,060 Supreme Court Justice Peter Garling because too much time has passed 785 00:41:41,060 --> 00:41:42,900 because too much time has passed 786 00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:46,300 and some Scouts decision-makers are dead. 787 00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:46,540 and some Scouts decision-makers Justice Garling says 788 00:41:46,540 --> 00:41:47,980 Justice Garling says 789 00:41:47,980 --> 00:41:48,220 Matt's convicted perpetrator, who Justice Garling says 790 00:41:48,220 --> 00:41:52,300 Matt's convicted perpetrator, who offered to give evidence from jail, 791 00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:52,540 Matt's convicted perpetrator, who is self-serving. 792 00:41:52,540 --> 00:41:54,780 is self-serving. 793 00:41:54,780 --> 00:41:59,620 Justice Garling awards costs AGAINST Matt 794 00:41:59,620 --> 00:42:01,620 TO Scouts. 795 00:42:01,620 --> 00:42:03,420 To contextualise, 796 00:42:03,420 --> 00:42:06,780 Scouts NSW's net assets 797 00:42:06,780 --> 00:42:06,980 are worth $187 million. Scouts NSW's net assets 798 00:42:06,980 --> 00:42:11,020 are worth $187 million. 799 00:42:11,980 --> 00:42:14,220 PETER KARP: This decision today by the Supreme Court 800 00:42:14,220 --> 00:42:14,460 PETER KARP: This decision today flies in the face of everything 801 00:42:14,460 --> 00:42:16,380 flies in the face of everything 802 00:42:16,380 --> 00:42:16,620 that the Royal Commission flies in the face of everything 803 00:42:16,620 --> 00:42:19,660 that the Royal Commission into child abuse stood for. 804 00:42:19,660 --> 00:42:19,900 that the Royal Commission My client is devastated. 805 00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:21,620 My client is devastated. 806 00:42:21,620 --> 00:42:21,860 My client is calling upon the Attorneys-General My client is devastated. 807 00:42:21,860 --> 00:42:24,860 My client is calling upon the Attorneys-General 808 00:42:24,860 --> 00:42:27,500 to look into this law again and rectify it 809 00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:27,780 to look into this law again and rectify it to go back to what the Royal Commission wanted it to be - 810 00:42:27,780 --> 00:42:30,700 to go back to what the Royal Commission wanted it to be - 811 00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:30,940 to go back to what the Royal victim-orientated, 812 00:42:30,940 --> 00:42:32,740 victim-orientated, 813 00:42:32,740 --> 00:42:34,420 survivor-orientated, 814 00:42:34,420 --> 00:42:34,660 to support them, survivor-orientated, 815 00:42:34,660 --> 00:42:38,020 to support them, not the institutions, 816 00:42:38,020 --> 00:42:44,980 once again allowing the abusers to slip through the fingers of justice. 817 00:42:46,620 --> 00:42:50,180 Despite Four Corners' repeated conversations 818 00:42:50,180 --> 00:42:52,940 with their corporate-communications representative, 819 00:42:52,940 --> 00:42:57,260 Scouts NSW declined requests for an interview. 820 00:42:57,260 --> 00:43:02,980 But we approached Scouts' lawyer, Patrick Thompson, outside court. 821 00:43:02,980 --> 00:43:04,460 I just wanted to ask you 822 00:43:04,460 --> 00:43:06,140 will you be enforcing costs 823 00:43:06,140 --> 00:43:08,340 against this victim of a convicted paedophile? 824 00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:11,620 Oh, thank you for asking that question, 825 00:43:11,620 --> 00:43:13,100 but I can't make any comment on that. 826 00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:15,660 Scouts is an organisation which is responsible 827 00:43:15,660 --> 00:43:15,900 Scouts is an organisation for the care and safety of children. 828 00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:18,140 for the care and safety of children. 829 00:43:18,140 --> 00:43:22,580 Why has your client sought to have a permanent stay 830 00:43:22,580 --> 00:43:26,900 against a victim of a convicted paedophile who's in jail 831 00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:30,980 and is alive and is competent and is in his 60s? 832 00:43:30,980 --> 00:43:34,020 Excuse me. Excuse me. Can you explain why that's the case? 833 00:43:37,060 --> 00:43:38,540 In a statement 834 00:43:38,540 --> 00:43:38,780 Scouts NSW acknowledged In a statement 835 00:43:38,780 --> 00:43:41,940 Scouts NSW acknowledged Matt was the victim 836 00:43:41,940 --> 00:43:45,820 of "an inexcusable and abhorrent crime," 837 00:43:45,820 --> 00:43:46,060 of "an inexcusable and said it had apologised to him. 838 00:43:46,060 --> 00:43:47,900 and said it had apologised to him. 839 00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:51,940 Matt was gutted when he got the news of the judgement. 840 00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:56,460 I was trying to sleep at night 841 00:43:56,460 --> 00:44:02,180 when you're shaking, trembling with anger about this decision. 842 00:44:02,180 --> 00:44:05,740 You know, you're trying to get through each day 843 00:44:05,740 --> 00:44:05,980 You know, you're trying just on the verge of tears. 844 00:44:05,980 --> 00:44:08,300 just on the verge of tears. 845 00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:10,940 Keeping him awake at night now 846 00:44:10,940 --> 00:44:15,380 is that the judge ordered HIM to pay Scouts' costs. 847 00:44:15,380 --> 00:44:20,900 Scouts aren't challenging the judge's decision to award them those costs. 848 00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:24,260 Meeting those costs would literally mean I lose my house 849 00:44:24,260 --> 00:44:24,500 Meeting those costs and face bankruptcy. 850 00:44:24,500 --> 00:44:26,300 and face bankruptcy. 851 00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:26,540 So, yeah, and face bankruptcy. 852 00:44:26,540 --> 00:44:29,980 So, yeah, I don't know what to do next. 853 00:44:29,980 --> 00:44:33,140 This decision, it doesn't just affect me. 854 00:44:33,140 --> 00:44:37,460 It affects all the other victims in my case. 855 00:44:38,420 --> 00:44:42,300 It affects so many other people that have got claims live 856 00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:42,540 It affects so many other people against organisations like Scouts. 857 00:44:42,540 --> 00:44:45,220 against organisations like Scouts. 858 00:44:45,220 --> 00:44:50,300 So, this decision really needs to be appealed. 859 00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:52,100 You know, I don't know how I'm going to gather 860 00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:52,340 You know, I don't know the financial resources to do that. 861 00:44:52,340 --> 00:44:54,620 the financial resources to do that. 862 00:44:54,620 --> 00:44:56,100 I don't know how I'm going to gather 863 00:44:56,100 --> 00:44:59,780 the emotional and psychological resources to do that. 864 00:44:59,780 --> 00:45:02,380 But I just have to. 865 00:45:02,380 --> 00:45:06,940 What would you say to the politicians who are watching this story? 866 00:45:08,380 --> 00:45:10,820 This judgement... 867 00:45:10,820 --> 00:45:16,700 This judgement is a perfect example of why the law needs to be changed. 868 00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:21,380 The Scouts, you know, they said to the Royal Commission 869 00:45:21,380 --> 00:45:25,660 that they were going to treat victims of sexual abuse 870 00:45:25,660 --> 00:45:31,260 with consideration and mindfulness that litigation can be traumatising. 871 00:45:31,260 --> 00:45:35,180 They said they were going to consider meeting legitimate claims 872 00:45:35,180 --> 00:45:36,820 without litigation. 873 00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:39,900 They're not doing that. That's not what they're doing here. 874 00:45:39,900 --> 00:45:40,140 They're not doing that. Instead, they're re-victimising me. 875 00:45:40,140 --> 00:45:42,580 Instead, they're re-victimising me. 876 00:45:42,580 --> 00:45:45,700 They're treating me with unspeakable cruelty. 877 00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:47,180 And it hurts. 878 00:45:47,180 --> 00:45:51,180 So, what the legislators need to do is change the laws 879 00:45:51,180 --> 00:45:54,500 so organisations can't behave like that.