1 00:00:01,020 --> 00:00:03,060 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 2 00:00:16,300 --> 00:00:18,780 The reputation of Qantas is in tatters. 3 00:00:18,780 --> 00:00:19,020 In the past few weeks The reputation of Qantas is in tatters. 4 00:00:19,020 --> 00:00:20,660 In the past few weeks 5 00:00:20,660 --> 00:00:20,900 it's been accused of selling In the past few weeks 6 00:00:20,900 --> 00:00:24,100 it's been accused of selling thousands if tickets for flights 7 00:00:24,100 --> 00:00:24,340 it's been accused of selling thousands if tickets for flights that were already cancelled, 8 00:00:24,340 --> 00:00:26,220 that were already cancelled, 9 00:00:26,220 --> 00:00:30,300 shamed into refunding $500 million in flight credits 10 00:00:30,300 --> 00:00:31,620 due to expire 11 00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:33,340 and hit by a High Court ruling 12 00:00:33,340 --> 00:00:36,380 it unlawfully sacked 1,700 workers. 13 00:00:36,380 --> 00:00:39,460 Qantas boss, Alan Joyce, has quit, 14 00:00:39,460 --> 00:00:39,700 departing early Qantas boss, Alan Joyce, has quit, 15 00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:42,460 departing early to stem a tide of public anger. 16 00:00:42,460 --> 00:00:46,420 But he's walking away with a $24 million payout. 17 00:00:46,420 --> 00:00:50,220 This is the story we first broadcast lest September, 18 00:00:50,220 --> 00:00:54,500 precisely one year before Alan Joyce's exit. 19 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:59,460 SONG: # I've been to cities... # 20 00:00:59,460 --> 00:01:02,260 ROBERT MENZIES: I never have any hesitation myself 21 00:01:02,260 --> 00:01:04,500 in saying that Qantas 22 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:07,220 is the greatest international airline in the world. 23 00:01:07,220 --> 00:01:07,460 is the greatest There may be others that are bigger, 24 00:01:07,460 --> 00:01:09,340 There may be others that are bigger, 25 00:01:09,340 --> 00:01:09,580 but in my humble opinion There may be others that are bigger, 26 00:01:09,580 --> 00:01:13,340 but in my humble opinion there are none quite so good. 27 00:01:13,340 --> 00:01:13,580 but in my humble opinion For 100 years 28 00:01:13,580 --> 00:01:15,100 For 100 years 29 00:01:15,100 --> 00:01:17,940 Qantas has been part of the national fabric. 30 00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:18,180 Qantas has been part # But no matter how far... # 31 00:01:18,180 --> 00:01:20,420 # But no matter how far... # 32 00:01:20,420 --> 00:01:22,420 Feted by Prime Ministers. 33 00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:24,340 Loved by the public. 34 00:01:24,340 --> 00:01:27,100 A byword for the Aussie way. # I still call 35 00:01:27,100 --> 00:01:28,700 # Australia 36 00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:31,860 # Home! # 37 00:01:31,860 --> 00:01:33,820 Now it's in damage control. 38 00:01:33,820 --> 00:01:36,060 On behalf of the national carrier, 39 00:01:36,060 --> 00:01:37,540 I want to apologise. 40 00:01:41,180 --> 00:01:45,300 This year the national carrier's reputation for reliability 41 00:01:45,300 --> 00:01:46,580 has been trashed. 42 00:01:48,260 --> 00:01:53,180 ALANA GALL: It's not just bags being lost, it's flights being cancelled. 43 00:01:53,180 --> 00:01:56,780 I've basically told everyone I know, "If you can, fly with Virgin." 44 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:02,500 Staff are demoralised and disillusioned. 45 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:07,380 It's a divide-and-conquer culture, which the airline has put into play. 46 00:02:09,540 --> 00:02:13,580 It makes me angry because I see our airline running down. 47 00:02:18,780 --> 00:02:23,540 High-paid Qantas executives stand accused of undermining the airline 48 00:02:23,540 --> 00:02:25,820 through ruthless cost-cutting. 49 00:02:27,060 --> 00:02:29,060 It's not part of the Spirit of Australia. 50 00:02:30,180 --> 00:02:34,500 This is a corporate dictatorship. This is how the company behaves. 51 00:02:35,780 --> 00:02:38,180 SHAE MCCRYSTAL: If you're not paying workers properly, 52 00:02:38,180 --> 00:02:41,100 then how can you expect to get the kind of standard 53 00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:43,660 that Australians have got used to from Qantas? 54 00:02:45,260 --> 00:02:47,140 In this Four Corners report 55 00:02:47,140 --> 00:02:47,380 we're bringing you the inside story In this Four Corners report 56 00:02:47,380 --> 00:02:51,060 we're bringing you the inside story about what's happening at Qantas 57 00:02:51,060 --> 00:02:54,900 told through the voices of people who've spent years working there. 58 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:58,740 You'll hear their views about why Qantas is failing its customers, 59 00:02:58,740 --> 00:03:03,300 about its at times brutal efforts to cut costs and boost the bottom line, 60 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:05,980 as well as their fears about what this could mean 61 00:03:05,980 --> 00:03:10,020 for the airline's world-leading reputation for safety. 62 00:03:25,660 --> 00:03:27,900 On 17 June 63 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:32,460 Alana Gall was in a hotel packing for a Qantas flight home to Brisbane 64 00:03:32,460 --> 00:03:32,700 Alana Gall was in a hotel packing after a special day. 65 00:03:32,700 --> 00:03:34,100 after a special day. 66 00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:39,940 ALANA GALL: I graduated with my PhD in Alice Springs. 67 00:03:39,940 --> 00:03:41,540 When I got my PhD, 68 00:03:41,540 --> 00:03:41,780 it was, like, one of the most amazing days of my life When I got my PhD, 69 00:03:41,780 --> 00:03:45,100 it was, like, one of the most amazing days of my life 70 00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:49,700 because I'd been working so hard all my life to get to that point. 71 00:03:50,660 --> 00:03:56,140 In my bag I had gifts from my supervisors for finishing my PhD, 72 00:03:56,140 --> 00:03:59,820 and one of those was a beautiful basket 73 00:03:59,820 --> 00:04:03,620 made by the desert weavers in Central Australia. 74 00:04:03,620 --> 00:04:06,980 They are one-off pieces, so, it can't be replaced. 75 00:04:07,940 --> 00:04:11,540 I also had my PhD certificate in there. 76 00:04:11,540 --> 00:04:16,100 But the most absolute most important thing that was in that bag 77 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:17,660 that brought me to tears 78 00:04:17,660 --> 00:04:21,500 was a necklace that my father made for me. 79 00:04:30,940 --> 00:04:34,380 On arrival, she went to the baggage carousel 80 00:04:34,380 --> 00:04:35,860 and waited 81 00:04:35,860 --> 00:04:37,540 and waited. 82 00:04:46,540 --> 00:04:50,860 I thought, you know, potentially my bag is on the next flight, 83 00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:52,860 maybe they just didn't get it on that one. 84 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:56,540 And the next flight had two of my supervisors on it as well, 85 00:04:56,540 --> 00:05:00,500 so, I sent a text to one of my supervisors and said, 86 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:02,780 "Have you landed yet? Have you got your bag?" 87 00:05:02,780 --> 00:05:06,700 And she replied and said, "Oh, Alana, I'm sorry. I'm at home." 88 00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:09,900 So, I didn't realise how long I'd been waiting, 89 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:12,340 but she'd obviously landed, got her bag and gone. 90 00:05:12,340 --> 00:05:12,580 but she'd obviously landed, So, my bag definitely wasn't there. 91 00:05:12,580 --> 00:05:14,100 So, my bag definitely wasn't there. 92 00:05:16,380 --> 00:05:23,620 Days turned to weeks as Alana tried in vain to get help from Qantas. 93 00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:27,580 I tried contacting over and over again. 94 00:05:27,580 --> 00:05:30,620 You couldn't get through on the phone lines or anything either, 95 00:05:30,620 --> 00:05:32,260 they were conveniently down, 96 00:05:32,260 --> 00:05:34,380 and I was thinking, "Why is this happening?" 97 00:05:34,380 --> 00:05:38,940 You know, it's a big company, it's been around for a very long time, 98 00:05:38,940 --> 00:05:40,620 it's an icon in Australia, 99 00:05:40,620 --> 00:05:40,860 and it's, like, "How is this it's an icon in Australia, 100 00:05:40,860 --> 00:05:44,180 and it's, like, "How is this happening? Where's the management?" 101 00:05:45,980 --> 00:05:49,060 And at that point, it was like... I was sad about everything else, 102 00:05:49,060 --> 00:05:50,860 it's going to cost me a lot of money to replace, 103 00:05:50,860 --> 00:05:52,100 but I was, like, that's fine. 104 00:05:52,100 --> 00:05:53,940 But I was, like, my dad's necklace - that's... 105 00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:56,420 It's irreplaceable. 106 00:05:57,380 --> 00:06:00,460 Then suddenly, after weeks of inaction, 107 00:06:00,460 --> 00:06:00,700 Then suddenly, Qantas took up her case 108 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:02,180 Qantas took up her case 109 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:02,420 after a Four Corners researcher Qantas took up her case 110 00:06:02,420 --> 00:06:06,180 after a Four Corners researcher followed her on Twitter. 111 00:06:06,180 --> 00:06:09,740 Then coincidentally, within half an hour, 112 00:06:09,740 --> 00:06:09,980 Then coincidentally, I got a message from Qantas saying, 113 00:06:09,980 --> 00:06:12,820 I got a message from Qantas saying, 114 00:06:12,820 --> 00:06:18,460 "Send us a private message and we'll try and work out where your bag is." 115 00:06:18,460 --> 00:06:21,220 And I was like, "Yeah. OK." 116 00:06:21,220 --> 00:06:22,980 At that point, you know, 117 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:26,060 they said that they were going to make my case a priority. 118 00:06:26,060 --> 00:06:27,500 I don't believe I would have it back 119 00:06:27,500 --> 00:06:31,340 if it wasn't for them worrying about their reputation 120 00:06:31,340 --> 00:06:31,580 if it wasn't for them more than their customer service. 121 00:06:31,580 --> 00:06:33,420 more than their customer service. 122 00:06:38,380 --> 00:06:41,020 It's one of thousands of stories like this - 123 00:06:41,020 --> 00:06:46,340 bags lost, flights cancelled, flights delayed in record numbers 124 00:06:46,340 --> 00:06:50,540 at a premium airline charging premium prices. 125 00:06:50,540 --> 00:06:52,220 Qantas blames the problems 126 00:06:52,220 --> 00:06:57,180 on labour shortages and COVID illness across aviation. 127 00:06:58,260 --> 00:07:02,020 We're also seeing that passengers are rusty in travelling as well. 128 00:07:02,020 --> 00:07:04,300 I think our customers are not match fit. 129 00:07:04,300 --> 00:07:04,540 I think our customers This is nobody's fault. 130 00:07:04,540 --> 00:07:05,780 This is nobody's fault. 131 00:07:05,780 --> 00:07:08,780 It's not our staff's fault. It's not the airport's fault. 132 00:07:08,780 --> 00:07:10,300 It's not the airline's fault. 133 00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:14,220 It's just dealing with this aftermath of coming out of COVID. 134 00:07:15,900 --> 00:07:19,940 But Qantas will not accept that part of the problem stems 135 00:07:19,940 --> 00:07:26,020 from a deliberate corporate strategy to outsource jobs and cut costs. 136 00:07:27,860 --> 00:07:30,940 DON DIXON: It is gut-wrenching. 137 00:07:30,940 --> 00:07:31,180 It is gut-wrenching DON DIXON: It is gut-wrenching. 138 00:07:31,180 --> 00:07:33,620 It is gut-wrenching to see the company that we loved 139 00:07:33,620 --> 00:07:33,860 It is gut-wrenching end up like this. 140 00:07:33,860 --> 00:07:35,420 end up like this. 141 00:07:35,420 --> 00:07:37,820 My name's Don Dixon. 142 00:07:37,820 --> 00:07:45,180 I was a loading supervisor at Qantas Domestic ramp for 20 years. 143 00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:48,580 That job entails to ensure that the planes are loaded safely 144 00:07:48,580 --> 00:07:53,180 with not only baggage but cargo, dangerous goods, 145 00:07:53,180 --> 00:07:56,780 and that everything's located and locked down securely 146 00:07:56,780 --> 00:07:58,500 in accordance to the regulations. 147 00:07:59,460 --> 00:08:01,780 I had to sign the aircraft off. 148 00:08:01,780 --> 00:08:05,100 If I didn't sign the aircraft off, it didn't go. 149 00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:09,380 Don Dixon started at Qantas in different times. 150 00:08:09,380 --> 00:08:13,660 It was extremely difficult to get into Qantas because it was a career. 151 00:08:13,660 --> 00:08:17,220 When I first went for the application, 152 00:08:17,220 --> 00:08:17,460 there was thousands of people When I first went for the application, 153 00:08:17,460 --> 00:08:19,020 there was thousands of people 154 00:08:19,020 --> 00:08:22,420 going for, I think, about 10 or 12 positions. 155 00:08:22,420 --> 00:08:22,660 going for, I think, So, it was very hard to get in there 156 00:08:22,660 --> 00:08:24,180 So, it was very hard to get in there 157 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:24,420 So, it was very hard to get in there and you had to jump through a lot of hoops, 158 00:08:24,420 --> 00:08:25,900 and you had to jump through a lot of hoops, 159 00:08:25,900 --> 00:08:27,820 different phases of interviewing. 160 00:08:27,820 --> 00:08:29,300 But once you got in 161 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:32,580 you became part of the Qantas family and it was a career. 162 00:08:44,940 --> 00:08:48,140 After COVID devastated aviation in 2020, 163 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:51,940 Qantas announced it would retrench 1,700 ground staff 164 00:08:51,940 --> 00:08:52,180 Qantas announced at Australia's major airports. 165 00:08:52,180 --> 00:08:54,620 at Australia's major airports. 166 00:08:55,860 --> 00:08:58,100 It outsourced the work to contractors, 167 00:08:58,100 --> 00:09:02,140 anticipating savings of $100 million a year. 168 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:08,620 Insiders have told us how this strategy has backfired spectacularly. 169 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:14,140 (ENGINES WHINE) 170 00:09:14,140 --> 00:09:18,420 From workers loading the bags to pilots flying the planes, 171 00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:21,940 we've talked to dozens of employees about what's going on 172 00:09:21,940 --> 00:09:22,180 we've talked to dozens of employees and what's going wrong. 173 00:09:22,180 --> 00:09:23,540 and what's going wrong. 174 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:25,900 The difficulty that current staff face 175 00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:28,220 is they can be sacked for speaking out, 176 00:09:28,220 --> 00:09:32,140 so, we disguised their identities to protect them. 177 00:09:36,820 --> 00:09:42,460 We took the additional precaution of using an actor to voice their words. 178 00:09:42,460 --> 00:09:42,740 As a pilot operating in the domestic environment on a regular basis, We took the additional precaution of using an actor to voice their words. 179 00:09:42,740 --> 00:09:46,580 As a pilot operating in the domestic environment on a regular basis, 180 00:09:46,580 --> 00:09:49,460 I can assure you that the delays passengers are facing 181 00:09:49,460 --> 00:09:52,580 is a result of the outsourcing of the ground-handling staff. 182 00:09:52,580 --> 00:09:52,860 is a result of the outsourcing of the ground-handling staff. We can be all ready to go on the flight deck, all passengers loaded, 183 00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:56,500 We can be all ready to go on the flight deck, all passengers loaded, 184 00:09:56,500 --> 00:09:59,020 and we'll be sitting there 20 or 30 minutes 185 00:09:59,020 --> 00:10:02,060 waiting for someone to be available to push the aircraft back 186 00:10:02,060 --> 00:10:05,660 or waiting for the passengers or freight to be loaded. 187 00:10:06,620 --> 00:10:09,060 It wouldn't 100% be because of that, 188 00:10:09,060 --> 00:10:11,300 but definitely over 50% of flights 189 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:14,540 are delayed because of the ground handling. 190 00:10:20,780 --> 00:10:22,180 GROUND STAFF: Anybody that thinks 191 00:10:22,180 --> 00:10:24,980 the outsource of the in-house ground handling is not a problem 192 00:10:24,980 --> 00:10:25,220 the outsource of the in-house is delusional. 193 00:10:25,220 --> 00:10:26,740 is delusional. 194 00:10:26,740 --> 00:10:29,580 Bags aren't making aircraft on time. 195 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:32,820 Bags are being loaded onto aircraft incorrectly. 196 00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:33,060 Bags are being loaded onto aircraft Flights are being cancelled 197 00:10:33,060 --> 00:10:34,660 Flights are being cancelled 198 00:10:34,660 --> 00:10:34,900 because crew are running out of hours to operate these flights Flights are being cancelled 199 00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:37,220 because crew are running out of hours to operate these flights 200 00:10:37,220 --> 00:10:39,500 in the time it would take to fix the issues. 201 00:10:42,460 --> 00:10:46,740 Qantas outsourced to several specialist ground-handling companies, 202 00:10:46,740 --> 00:10:51,420 including Swissport, which took over the work in Sydney and Melbourne. 203 00:10:52,380 --> 00:10:57,180 By Easter this year, as passenger numbers grew, it was bedlam. 204 00:10:58,780 --> 00:11:01,020 If you go to Sydney Airport now, 205 00:11:01,020 --> 00:11:02,660 they've put garbage bags up 206 00:11:02,660 --> 00:11:05,780 on the windows where all these bags are being held 207 00:11:05,780 --> 00:11:08,020 that have been lost or haven't made flights 208 00:11:08,020 --> 00:11:08,260 because...I don't know, that have been lost or haven't made flights 209 00:11:08,260 --> 00:11:09,860 because...I don't know, 210 00:11:09,860 --> 00:11:12,340 do they not want the people to see what's going on? 211 00:11:14,740 --> 00:11:18,420 Outsourced ground-handling staff were struggling. 212 00:11:18,420 --> 00:11:20,420 OUTSOURCED WORKER: We're expected to do, basically, 213 00:11:20,420 --> 00:11:23,260 the tasks that the Qantas ground services did 214 00:11:23,260 --> 00:11:26,140 but with a lot less numbers and experience, 215 00:11:26,140 --> 00:11:28,460 and, as a result, we have a very high turnover rate 216 00:11:28,460 --> 00:11:32,540 that makes the already bad situation even worse. 217 00:11:32,540 --> 00:11:32,820 We can't build enough experienced people that makes the already bad situation even worse. 218 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:35,140 We can't build enough experienced people 219 00:11:35,140 --> 00:11:37,420 doing the job more efficiently and safely, 220 00:11:37,420 --> 00:11:40,780 and, so, we do jobs more slowly and more haphazardly, 221 00:11:40,780 --> 00:11:41,060 and, so, we do jobs more slowly and more haphazardly, as people just don't know, they're still learning on the job. 222 00:11:41,060 --> 00:11:44,260 as people just don't know, they're still learning on the job. 223 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:49,140 This is not how planes should be loaded. 224 00:11:55,820 --> 00:11:59,980 Loading bags and cargo correctly is critical to safety 225 00:11:59,980 --> 00:12:05,060 and, according to insiders, Qantas has been perilously close to error. 226 00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:09,340 GROUND STAFF: One instance I am aware of, 227 00:12:09,340 --> 00:12:12,740 the ground handlers, they loaded the aircraft incorrectly. 228 00:12:12,740 --> 00:12:15,100 So, what should have gone in the front went in the back. 229 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:17,620 What went in the back should have gone in the front. 230 00:12:17,620 --> 00:12:20,500 It's all things to do with the weight, these sorts of things. 231 00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:24,780 There's a certain way aircrafts HAVE to be loaded down below. 232 00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:27,340 And it was only realised it was done the wrong way 233 00:12:27,340 --> 00:12:30,180 just before the cargo hold was supposed to be closed. 234 00:12:32,220 --> 00:12:33,940 According to Qantas, 235 00:12:33,940 --> 00:12:37,540 the error being picked up by a supervisor before the aircraft left 236 00:12:37,540 --> 00:12:37,780 the error being picked up by shows a safety system that's working. 237 00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:40,660 shows a safety system that's working. 238 00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:44,820 It claims there has been a lower rate of incidents 239 00:12:44,820 --> 00:12:45,060 It claims there has been than when the work was done in house. 240 00:12:45,060 --> 00:12:47,300 than when the work was done in house. 241 00:12:48,220 --> 00:12:50,060 Ready for lift-off! 242 00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:51,820 Let's go! 243 00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:55,980 (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) 244 00:12:55,980 --> 00:12:56,220 And, so, (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) 245 00:12:56,220 --> 00:12:58,460 And, so, as we go into the next phase, 246 00:12:58,460 --> 00:13:00,820 as JobKeeper ends at the end of this month... 247 00:13:00,820 --> 00:13:04,220 The Morrison government gave a special wage subsidy to airlines 248 00:13:04,220 --> 00:13:04,460 The Morrison government gave after it scrapped JobKeeper. 249 00:13:04,460 --> 00:13:06,500 after it scrapped JobKeeper. 250 00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:06,740 But it excluded the ground-handling after it scrapped JobKeeper. 251 00:13:06,740 --> 00:13:11,980 But it excluded the ground-handling companies Qantas had outsourced to, 252 00:13:11,980 --> 00:13:15,820 and workers abandoned the industry in their thousands. 253 00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:19,860 It left a skills shortage, 254 00:13:19,860 --> 00:13:23,700 causing chaos when passenger numbers climbed. 255 00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:27,660 How do you feel when you hear Qantas executives say 256 00:13:27,660 --> 00:13:30,020 that getting rid of you and your colleagues 257 00:13:30,020 --> 00:13:34,380 has made not one iota of difference to service? 258 00:13:34,380 --> 00:13:37,300 Well, that just shows how out of touch they are. 259 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:43,300 When I started, my supervisor had 20 years' experience already. 260 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:43,580 He showed me that, "This is what you do in this position," When I started, my supervisor had 20 years' experience already. 261 00:13:43,580 --> 00:13:47,660 He showed me that, "This is what you do in this position," 262 00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:47,900 He showed me that, "This "When a machine breaks down. 263 00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:49,140 "When a machine breaks down. 264 00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:51,900 "This is what you do when the machine doesn't work properly," 265 00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:52,180 "This is what you do when the machine doesn't work properly," all these things that you don't learn from a book or in training. 266 00:13:52,180 --> 00:13:54,940 all these things that you don't learn from a book or in training. 267 00:13:54,940 --> 00:13:57,900 That experience is invaluable. You can't buy that. 268 00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:02,460 Now these young people coming in now haven't got that. 269 00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:09,740 TONY LUCAS: I think what's happened is we've taken an AFL-standard team 270 00:14:09,740 --> 00:14:12,220 of ground handlers and ground staff 271 00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:12,460 and what we've done is we've actually recruited of ground handlers and ground staff 272 00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:14,140 and what we've done is we've actually recruited 273 00:14:14,140 --> 00:14:15,820 the under-19s from the local park 274 00:14:15,820 --> 00:14:17,300 to replace them. 275 00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:17,500 to replace them. Tony Lucas wears two hats. 276 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:20,780 Tony Lucas wears two hats. 277 00:14:20,780 --> 00:14:25,540 He is the President of the Australian and International Pilots Association, 278 00:14:25,540 --> 00:14:28,140 which represents thousands of pilots. 279 00:14:28,140 --> 00:14:31,540 He's also a senior Qantas pilot himself. 280 00:14:31,540 --> 00:14:33,540 I've been a pilot for about 30 years, 281 00:14:33,540 --> 00:14:37,820 27 of those with Qantas Airways and risen through the ranks of Qantas. 282 00:14:37,820 --> 00:14:40,060 I've flown the 747-400, 283 00:14:40,060 --> 00:14:43,140 the 767 for most of my time in Qantas, 284 00:14:43,140 --> 00:14:43,380 the 767 a very short sabbatical on the A380. 285 00:14:43,380 --> 00:14:45,980 a very short sabbatical on the A380. 286 00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:50,020 So, I'm a check-and-training captain on the A330. 287 00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:50,260 So, I'm a check-and-training captain Today he's heading out of Sydney 288 00:14:50,260 --> 00:14:52,500 Today he's heading out of Sydney 289 00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:55,620 airport on a training flight for another pilot. 290 00:14:55,620 --> 00:14:59,060 Qantas pilots are usually barred from speaking to the media, 291 00:14:59,060 --> 00:15:03,900 but his position with the Pilots Association makes him an exception. 292 00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:06,900 Tell me some stories that you are hearing from your members 293 00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:09,580 about what's been happening on the ground. 294 00:15:09,580 --> 00:15:09,820 about what's been happening Oh... (LAUGHS) 295 00:15:09,820 --> 00:15:11,180 Oh... (LAUGHS) 296 00:15:11,180 --> 00:15:13,660 There's lots of things occurring at the moment. 297 00:15:13,660 --> 00:15:13,900 There's lots of things There's aircraft that are being told 298 00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:16,500 There's aircraft that are being told 299 00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:16,740 they're departing There's aircraft that are being told 300 00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:18,980 they're departing without any passenger baggage. 301 00:15:20,260 --> 00:15:23,420 There's baggage that's not loaded off flights. 302 00:15:23,420 --> 00:15:25,780 So, we've had a crew that have been ready to depart, 303 00:15:25,780 --> 00:15:27,860 all the passengers loaded for the subsequent flight, 304 00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:30,180 and the baggage hasn't been unloaded from the previous flight. 305 00:15:30,180 --> 00:15:32,740 And then the pilot's being told that they need to depart 306 00:15:32,740 --> 00:15:35,180 because we need to get the passengers to their destination. 307 00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:36,700 So, now we've got two sets of passengers 308 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:36,940 So, now we've got that don't have their bags. 309 00:15:36,940 --> 00:15:38,220 that don't have their bags. 310 00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:42,100 I've been ready to depart and had all the passengers on board, 311 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:45,100 and you check with the engineer on the headset 312 00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:47,620 and ask how the cargo loading's going, 313 00:15:47,620 --> 00:15:50,940 and his response is, "What cargo loading? There's no-one here." 314 00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:55,260 Qantas has an enviable safety record. 315 00:15:55,260 --> 00:15:58,940 The company is adamant that is not at risk. 316 00:15:58,940 --> 00:15:59,180 The company is adamant But Qantas staff have concerns. 317 00:15:59,180 --> 00:16:01,980 But Qantas staff have concerns. 318 00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:02,220 All the disruptions But Qantas staff have concerns. 319 00:16:02,220 --> 00:16:04,020 All the disruptions that we're getting, 320 00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:04,260 All the disruptions none of them in and of themselves 321 00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:05,980 none of them in and of themselves 322 00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:09,780 are anything different to what we deal with on a day-to-day basis. 323 00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:10,020 are anything different to what What we're seeing at the moment 324 00:16:10,020 --> 00:16:11,260 What we're seeing at the moment 325 00:16:11,260 --> 00:16:11,500 is we're seeing them occur What we're seeing at the moment 326 00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:14,860 is we're seeing them occur multiple times in the day. 327 00:16:14,860 --> 00:16:18,780 We're seeing them occur across multiple weeks. 328 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:19,020 We're seeing them And ultimately that's where 329 00:16:19,020 --> 00:16:20,460 And ultimately that's where 330 00:16:20,460 --> 00:16:20,700 things start to increase And ultimately that's where 331 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:24,580 things start to increase in operational complexity. 332 00:16:24,580 --> 00:16:27,940 Any one of those things on their own isn't a big deal to deal with, 333 00:16:27,940 --> 00:16:30,060 but when you start adding them up all together 334 00:16:30,060 --> 00:16:30,300 but when you start adding them up across multiple flights 335 00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:31,740 across multiple flights 336 00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:33,460 that starts to become a concern. 337 00:16:33,460 --> 00:16:34,780 For safety? 338 00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:36,420 For safety. 339 00:16:42,260 --> 00:16:44,660 PILOT: As frustrating as it is for passengers, 340 00:16:44,660 --> 00:16:47,580 for pilots it means we're working a lot harder 341 00:16:47,580 --> 00:16:47,820 for pilots to keep the flights on schedule. 342 00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:50,260 to keep the flights on schedule. 343 00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:50,460 We're working longer hours. to keep the flights on schedule. 344 00:16:50,460 --> 00:16:51,740 We're working longer hours. 345 00:16:51,740 --> 00:16:53,900 We are redlining, running at max capacity 346 00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:57,180 in a very dynamic, challenging environment. 347 00:16:57,180 --> 00:16:57,420 in a very dynamic, challenging environment. There's a lot that can go wrong. 348 00:16:57,420 --> 00:16:59,140 There's a lot that can go wrong. 349 00:17:02,780 --> 00:17:04,260 STEVE PURVINAS: Alright, come through, 350 00:17:04,260 --> 00:17:06,340 and I'm going to show you some very old aircraft. 351 00:17:06,340 --> 00:17:09,220 There's certainly a bit of aviation history in here. 352 00:17:09,220 --> 00:17:09,980 Sure is. 353 00:17:09,980 --> 00:17:13,300 I'll... First, I'll take you over to the Tiger Moth 354 00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:13,540 I'll... First, I'll take you over and I'll probably show you 355 00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:16,540 and I'll probably show you 356 00:17:16,540 --> 00:17:18,060 just a little bit of a demonstration 357 00:17:18,060 --> 00:17:20,540 of what can happen if you're too fatigued. 358 00:17:20,540 --> 00:17:21,860 Steve Purvinas heads 359 00:17:21,860 --> 00:17:26,020 the Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Association. 360 00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:28,900 He spent 20 years working for Qantas. 361 00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:31,300 So, I'm going to open her up, 362 00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:33,700 go to the oil cap 363 00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:35,660 and take the oil cap off. 364 00:17:35,660 --> 00:17:38,780 And I would normally pour my oil 365 00:17:38,780 --> 00:17:39,020 And I would normally in there like that. 366 00:17:39,020 --> 00:17:41,260 in there like that. 367 00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:42,260 Give it a wipe. 368 00:17:42,260 --> 00:17:42,500 Give it a bit of a wipe just Give it a wipe. 369 00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:45,700 Give it a bit of a wipe just to make sure that everything's OK. 370 00:17:46,660 --> 00:17:48,820 And there we go. 371 00:17:48,820 --> 00:17:50,140 What's the problem? 372 00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:53,020 The problem is I forgot to put the oil cap back on. 373 00:17:53,020 --> 00:17:53,260 The problem is So, what that can lead to is, 374 00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:55,500 So, what that can lead to is, 375 00:17:55,500 --> 00:18:00,900 with the oil cap loose like that, the oil can come out in flight, 376 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:02,540 and that's the problem. 377 00:18:02,540 --> 00:18:02,740 and that's the problem. This happened on a Jetstar flight. 378 00:18:02,740 --> 00:18:04,980 This happened on a Jetstar flight. 379 00:18:04,980 --> 00:18:07,700 Staff numbers and fatigue, distractions, 380 00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:09,540 all of these things combined 381 00:18:09,540 --> 00:18:13,300 can lead to problems on planes. 382 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:18,220 According to Steve Purvinas and some Qantas engineers we spoke to, 383 00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:18,460 According to Steve Purvinas and that's a risk the airline is running 384 00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:20,700 that's a risk the airline is running 385 00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:24,740 because of deep staff cuts during the COVID crisis. 386 00:18:24,740 --> 00:18:27,060 When any given engineer goes into work today 387 00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:32,220 they're loaded up with more work than they would've been pre-COVID. 388 00:18:32,220 --> 00:18:32,500 About two or three months into COVID Qantas come out and said, they're loaded up with more work than they would've been pre-COVID. 389 00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:34,820 About two or three months into COVID Qantas come out and said, 390 00:18:34,820 --> 00:18:37,660 "We want to make 20% of the engineers redundant." 391 00:18:37,660 --> 00:18:37,900 "We want to make They were oversubscribed. 392 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:39,140 They were oversubscribed. 393 00:18:39,140 --> 00:18:39,380 They were oversubscribed. They ultimately let go near on 35% of the engineers. 394 00:18:39,380 --> 00:18:43,700 They ultimately let go near on 35% of the engineers. 395 00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:46,420 And we were telling them all along that you cannot do this, 396 00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:48,940 "You won't have enough people employed by the airline 397 00:18:48,940 --> 00:18:52,660 "to maintain the aircraft when things rebound." 398 00:18:52,660 --> 00:18:54,340 It's hard to believe that Qantas, 399 00:18:54,340 --> 00:18:58,900 which has staked its reputation on its enviable safety record, 400 00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:03,260 would cut numbers so severely that it would impact on safety. 401 00:19:03,260 --> 00:19:07,020 It's sort of like Qantas have had this long-term safety record 402 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:08,940 and they're now trying to cash in on it, 403 00:19:08,940 --> 00:19:12,300 that is, "We'll let slip on some of these safeguards 404 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:14,780 "that were put in place over many years, 405 00:19:14,780 --> 00:19:17,020 "we'll let some of the experience go, 406 00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:21,300 "we'll push the guys further than they've ever been pushed before 407 00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:23,220 "and hope that things don't fall apart." 408 00:19:26,580 --> 00:19:30,660 Qantas maintains it needs fewer engineers than pre-COVID 409 00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:33,180 because its maintenance requirements are lower, 410 00:19:33,180 --> 00:19:38,060 and says it will recruit more as flying returns to pre-COVID levels. 411 00:19:38,060 --> 00:19:41,660 It accuses unions of making baseless safety claims 412 00:19:41,660 --> 00:19:44,820 to further their industrial agendas. 413 00:19:44,820 --> 00:19:49,820 But that doesn't address the worries felt by its own employees. 414 00:19:52,740 --> 00:19:54,980 A licensed engineer at Qantas 415 00:19:54,980 --> 00:19:55,220 A licensed engineer at Qantas are dealing with. 416 00:19:55,220 --> 00:19:59,100 told us what he and his colleagues are dealing with. 417 00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:02,300 ENGINEER: We're just ridiculously busy. 418 00:20:03,260 --> 00:20:05,140 The planned work for the night, 419 00:20:05,140 --> 00:20:07,820 we used to get through it almost, what they planned for us, 420 00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:08,060 we used to get through it almost, almost every night. 421 00:20:08,060 --> 00:20:10,100 almost every night. 422 00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:10,300 Now the first thing we do almost every night. 423 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:11,620 Now the first thing we do 424 00:20:11,620 --> 00:20:11,860 Now the first thing we do at what work is up to its time limit 425 00:20:11,860 --> 00:20:14,180 is have a look at what work is up to its time limit 426 00:20:14,180 --> 00:20:19,140 and has to be done so the plane can fly the next day. 427 00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:19,420 and has to be done so the plane can fly the next day. And we immediately start looking at what we can get rid of 428 00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:22,740 And we immediately start looking at what we can get rid of 429 00:20:22,740 --> 00:20:25,780 because we know we're not going to get through all that planned work. 430 00:20:25,780 --> 00:20:26,020 because we know we're not going to It's just not possible. 431 00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:27,300 It's just not possible. 432 00:20:28,860 --> 00:20:31,100 People feel like they have to rush around 433 00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:34,060 and they aren't able to take the time that they used to be able to 434 00:20:34,060 --> 00:20:36,620 to make sure that they're double-checking 435 00:20:36,620 --> 00:20:36,860 to make sure and not making mistakes. 436 00:20:36,860 --> 00:20:38,900 and not making mistakes. 437 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:41,540 (ENGINES WHOOSH) 438 00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:52,300 Ian Burton lives at Kurnell 439 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,820 on the southern fringe of Sydney's Botany Bay, 440 00:20:55,820 --> 00:20:58,260 under the flight path and across the water 441 00:20:58,260 --> 00:21:02,020 from the airport where he used to be employed. 442 00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:06,180 IAN BURTON: I worked in fleet presentation 443 00:21:06,180 --> 00:21:08,420 at Qantas Sydney International Airport, 444 00:21:08,420 --> 00:21:08,660 at Qantas and just presented the aircraft 445 00:21:08,660 --> 00:21:10,340 and just presented the aircraft 446 00:21:10,340 --> 00:21:13,020 so when the people came on board they'd say, "Wow." 447 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:19,500 We'd clean seats, pockets, lavatories, the cockpit. 448 00:21:21,380 --> 00:21:25,100 Ian was among the 1,700 workers who lost their jobs 449 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:27,940 when Qantas outsourced ground handling. 450 00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:28,180 when Qantas outsourced I was absolutely disgusted. 451 00:21:28,180 --> 00:21:30,420 I was absolutely disgusted. 452 00:21:30,420 --> 00:21:33,540 We were on JobKeeper. We thought we'd have a job to go back to. 453 00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:36,300 If they wanted me back tomorrow, I'd go like that. 454 00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:38,060 It was just a great family environment. 455 00:21:38,060 --> 00:21:38,300 It was just We looked after each other. 456 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:39,580 We looked after each other. 457 00:21:41,380 --> 00:21:43,580 Even though he loved the job, 458 00:21:43,580 --> 00:21:46,860 he was appalled by the approach that Qantas took to health and safety 459 00:21:46,860 --> 00:21:51,060 during the early stages of the COVID outbreak. 460 00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:54,260 When it came to COVID safety, I think they were very lacking. 461 00:21:54,260 --> 00:21:54,500 When it came to COVID safety, They thought there was no need 462 00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:55,740 They thought there was no need 463 00:21:55,740 --> 00:21:59,020 for us to clean the aircraft with masks on. 464 00:21:59,020 --> 00:22:01,260 We weren't given proper antibacterial spray, 465 00:22:01,260 --> 00:22:04,500 weren't given cloths, really, to do the job. 466 00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:07,660 We were just given a normal cloth, add a bit of water with it, 467 00:22:07,660 --> 00:22:07,900 We were just given a normal cloth, clean the tables down. 468 00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:09,140 clean the tables down. 469 00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:09,380 But their attitude was, clean the tables down. 470 00:22:09,380 --> 00:22:11,420 But their attitude was, "She'll be right." 471 00:22:11,420 --> 00:22:14,420 Like, even doing bathrooms, we had no antibacterial sprays, 472 00:22:14,420 --> 00:22:17,140 and that's the one place you'd think, cleaning the lavatories, 473 00:22:17,140 --> 00:22:19,100 with so many people on board the aircraft, 474 00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:20,340 you'd need that. 475 00:22:20,340 --> 00:22:21,980 How do you feel about that? 476 00:22:21,980 --> 00:22:24,020 Overall, I... 477 00:22:24,020 --> 00:22:25,620 It... (SIGHS) 478 00:22:25,620 --> 00:22:25,860 Overall, It... (SIGHS) 479 00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:28,340 Overall, I thought that was pretty low 480 00:22:28,340 --> 00:22:31,340 because you put yourself in the customer's point, 481 00:22:31,340 --> 00:22:33,700 you expect everything to be sparkling, nice and fresh, 482 00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:35,660 everything's sanitary, it's clean, 483 00:22:35,660 --> 00:22:37,420 but behind the scenes 484 00:22:37,420 --> 00:22:38,940 it's pretty disgusting. 485 00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:45,500 Qantas insists that employees cleaning aircraft 486 00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:45,740 Qantas insists did use chemical disinfectant. 487 00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:48,500 did use chemical disinfectant. 488 00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:53,020 Yet SafeWork New South Wales found otherwise. 489 00:22:53,020 --> 00:22:57,660 It slapped an improvement notice on Qantas after inspecting a plane, 490 00:22:57,660 --> 00:23:01,660 which might have transported passengers with COVID-19, 491 00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:01,940 where workers "were required to handle which might have transported passengers with COVID-19, 492 00:23:01,940 --> 00:23:03,820 where workers "were required to handle 493 00:23:03,820 --> 00:23:09,060 "wet and used tissues, used face masks, soiled nappies 494 00:23:09,060 --> 00:23:12,860 "and occasionally had to clean vomit and blood off surfaces" 495 00:23:12,860 --> 00:23:17,460 without mandated personal protective equipment. 496 00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:21,740 The inspector also saw Qantas staff: 497 00:23:29,140 --> 00:23:32,100 Qantas employees in customer-facing roles 498 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:35,100 have told us that, early in the pandemic, 499 00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:38,300 wearing masks was discouraged by managers. 500 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:38,540 wearing masks TERI O'TOOLE: In the beginning 501 00:23:38,540 --> 00:23:40,100 TERI O'TOOLE: In the beginning 502 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:44,140 Qantas were not wanting our crew to wear masks or gloves, 503 00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:44,380 and the feedback was, Qantas were not wanting our crew to wear masks or gloves, 504 00:23:44,380 --> 00:23:45,660 and the feedback was, 505 00:23:45,660 --> 00:23:47,700 especially in our business-class area, 506 00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:47,940 especially that "it would scare our passengers" 507 00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:49,620 that "it would scare our passengers" 508 00:23:49,620 --> 00:23:52,980 or "it wouldn't be something that the passengers wanted to see," 509 00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:53,220 or "it wouldn't be something that the passengers wanted to see," and we found that quite disturbing. 510 00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:55,580 and we found that quite disturbing. 511 00:23:58,020 --> 00:24:01,460 GROUND STAFF: March, April, May of 2020, 512 00:24:01,460 --> 00:24:04,980 when we were all in lockdown, COVID was running rife, 513 00:24:04,980 --> 00:24:05,220 when we were all in lockdown, we were told not to do it. 514 00:24:05,220 --> 00:24:07,060 we were told not to do it. 515 00:24:07,060 --> 00:24:07,300 "It wasn't a good look." "It would scare the customers." we were told not to do it. 516 00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,420 "It wasn't a good look." "It would scare the customers." 517 00:24:11,780 --> 00:24:15,180 Qantas maintains that from February 2020 518 00:24:15,180 --> 00:24:18,540 it made masks available to any crew who wanted them 519 00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:21,820 and notes it acted ahead of government mandates 520 00:24:21,820 --> 00:24:24,100 and health recommendations. 521 00:24:28,460 --> 00:24:33,140 Theo Seremetidis worked in the ground crew at Qantas in Sydney. 522 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:37,300 He was a health and safety representative, 523 00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:41,860 formerly responsible for safeguarding the interests of his colleagues. 524 00:24:41,860 --> 00:24:43,820 Last October 525 00:24:43,820 --> 00:24:44,060 SafeWork New South Wales launched Last October 526 00:24:44,060 --> 00:24:48,340 SafeWork New South Wales launched a criminal prosecution of Qantas 527 00:24:48,340 --> 00:24:48,580 SafeWork New South Wales launched because of the way it treated him. 528 00:24:48,580 --> 00:24:51,300 because of the way it treated him. 529 00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:55,420 For legal reasons he can't speak about the case. 530 00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:55,700 Quite frankly, Theo Seremetidis is a hero of the pandemic. For legal reasons he can't speak about the case. 531 00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:58,460 Quite frankly, Theo Seremetidis is a hero of the pandemic. 532 00:24:59,420 --> 00:25:03,380 He was fully trained in workplace health and safety procedures. 533 00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:07,180 He was in charge of the cleaning gang on the planes. 534 00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:10,260 And when the planes started to come in from China 535 00:25:10,260 --> 00:25:12,500 when we knew the virus was around, 536 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:14,100 he was concerned. 537 00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:18,620 He wrote to the company, he wrote to management and set out his concerns, 538 00:25:18,620 --> 00:25:20,660 asking management what they were doing 539 00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:23,460 to address the risk that the virus presented. 540 00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:34,460 Fearing infection, 541 00:25:34,460 --> 00:25:34,700 employees were reluctant to work Fearing infection, 542 00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:38,980 employees were reluctant to work on planes arriving from China. 543 00:25:39,860 --> 00:25:42,180 In a formal warning letter, 544 00:25:42,180 --> 00:25:42,420 Qantas ordered employees to do the work or risk... In a formal warning letter, 545 00:25:42,420 --> 00:25:46,220 Qantas ordered employees to do the work or risk... 546 00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:55,100 It claimed... 547 00:26:01,660 --> 00:26:05,740 ..and branded the workers' concerns as unreasonable. 548 00:26:08,220 --> 00:26:10,500 Theo Seremetidis said to his workforce, 549 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:13,460 as he was entitled to do under the laws, 550 00:26:13,460 --> 00:26:14,860 "We won't clean this plane. 551 00:26:14,860 --> 00:26:18,340 "We'll stop work until we can get some assurances from the company 552 00:26:18,340 --> 00:26:21,260 "that we'll be properly trained, we have appropriate equipment 553 00:26:21,260 --> 00:26:22,900 "and that we can get some assurances 554 00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:26,380 "that this plane is not infected with the virus." 555 00:26:26,380 --> 00:26:26,620 "that this plane They stood him down. 556 00:26:26,620 --> 00:26:28,460 They stood him down. 557 00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:32,100 And that's still, to this day, the subject of court proceedings. 558 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:36,300 According to Qantas, 559 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,260 Theo Seremetidis was stood down 560 00:26:38,260 --> 00:26:42,780 amid allegations he incited unprotected industrial action 561 00:26:42,780 --> 00:26:45,500 by discouraging workers from cleaning planes. 562 00:26:47,660 --> 00:26:49,340 IAN BURTON: Well, what happened to Theo 563 00:26:49,340 --> 00:26:49,580 I thought was so disgusting IAN BURTON: Well, what happened to Theo 564 00:26:49,580 --> 00:26:51,100 I thought was so disgusting 565 00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:52,460 because he was looking after 566 00:26:52,460 --> 00:26:55,620 not just mine but everybody who worked on the aircraft's interest 567 00:26:55,620 --> 00:26:58,140 just to make sure we were safe on board. 568 00:26:58,140 --> 00:27:00,460 And management just didn't care less about him 569 00:27:00,460 --> 00:27:02,860 and they've put him out to dry as a scapegoat, 570 00:27:02,860 --> 00:27:04,540 which really isn't the Australian way. 571 00:27:04,540 --> 00:27:04,780 which really isn't You look after each other. 572 00:27:04,780 --> 00:27:06,060 You look after each other. 573 00:27:12,540 --> 00:27:15,740 COVID was a disaster for aviation. 574 00:27:15,740 --> 00:27:17,620 ALAN JOYCE: Right now 575 00:27:17,620 --> 00:27:19,460 all airlines are in the middle 576 00:27:19,460 --> 00:27:24,660 of the biggest crisis our industry has ever, ever faced. 577 00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:28,260 And the impact will be felt for a long time, 578 00:27:28,260 --> 00:27:33,260 particularly, I'm sorry to say, the impact on our people. 579 00:27:37,700 --> 00:27:40,820 Qantas retrenched 10,000 people - 580 00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:43,220 a third of its workforce. 581 00:27:43,220 --> 00:27:45,580 It argues it had no choice, 582 00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:48,740 that without deep cuts it would have gone broke. 583 00:27:48,740 --> 00:27:48,980 that without deep cuts But COVID was also an opportunity. 584 00:27:48,980 --> 00:27:52,020 But COVID was also an opportunity. 585 00:27:52,020 --> 00:27:54,220 ALAN JOYCE: On a permanent basis 586 00:27:54,220 --> 00:27:54,460 we plan to deliver $1 billion ALAN JOYCE: On a permanent basis 587 00:27:54,460 --> 00:27:58,420 we plan to deliver $1 billion in annual cost savings 588 00:27:58,420 --> 00:27:58,660 we plan to deliver $1 billion from financial year 2023. 589 00:27:58,660 --> 00:28:01,220 from financial year 2023. 590 00:28:01,220 --> 00:28:06,380 We announced a high-level plan for recovery at the end of June. 591 00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:11,500 Over three years that will save us $15 billion. 592 00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:13,500 That is achieved by hard decisions 593 00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:17,420 like job losses and ongoing stand-downs of our people. 594 00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:25,140 The quest to cut costs at Qantas is nothing new. 595 00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:27,060 Since it was privatised 30 years ago 596 00:28:27,060 --> 00:28:30,740 it's had to compete against airlines with lower labour costs. 597 00:28:30,740 --> 00:28:34,740 And management has crafted tough and creative ways 598 00:28:34,740 --> 00:28:36,580 to bring down the wages bill. 599 00:28:36,580 --> 00:28:39,340 Its strategies go to the heart of a debate 600 00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:39,580 Its strategies about where the balance lies 601 00:28:39,580 --> 00:28:41,100 about where the balance lies 602 00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:46,340 between fairness and a company's right to try boost the bottom line. 603 00:28:46,340 --> 00:28:47,900 (KNOCK AT DOOR) 604 00:28:51,020 --> 00:28:52,940 Hello there! Matthew! 605 00:28:52,940 --> 00:28:53,980 Indeed. Nice to meet you. 606 00:28:53,980 --> 00:28:55,660 Stephen, how're you going? Very well, very well. 607 00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:55,900 Stephen, how're you going? Welcome. Come on in. 608 00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:57,060 Welcome. Come on in. 609 00:28:57,060 --> 00:28:58,940 I've opened the door to the world! 610 00:28:58,940 --> 00:28:59,180 You have. I've opened the door to the world! 611 00:28:59,180 --> 00:29:00,500 You have. You've got the world on your wall. 612 00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:02,780 You have, indeed. This is my little reminder. 613 00:29:02,780 --> 00:29:03,020 You have, indeed. I was never great at geography, 614 00:29:03,020 --> 00:29:04,780 I was never great at geography, 615 00:29:04,780 --> 00:29:05,020 so, putting this here reminds me of I was never great at geography, 616 00:29:05,020 --> 00:29:09,580 so, putting this here reminds me of the world that I've managed to see. 617 00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:09,820 so, putting this here reminds me of And how long did you work for Qantas? 618 00:29:09,820 --> 00:29:11,460 And how long did you work for Qantas? 619 00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:13,700 So, I was with the Qantas Group of companies 620 00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:13,940 So, I was with for just shy of 16 years, 621 00:29:13,940 --> 00:29:15,500 for just shy of 16 years, 622 00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:15,740 so, my entire time there for just shy of 16 years, 623 00:29:15,740 --> 00:29:18,460 so, my entire time there flying as cabin crew 624 00:29:18,460 --> 00:29:20,980 I never worked for the company proper. 625 00:29:20,980 --> 00:29:24,300 So, I managed to work for wholly-owned subsidiaries 626 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:26,660 or labour-hire firms during my time, 627 00:29:26,660 --> 00:29:29,260 but I always flew under the Qantas tail. 628 00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:29,500 but I always So, to put it simply, 629 00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:31,740 So, to put it simply, 630 00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:34,260 my entire time I wore a Qantas uniform 631 00:29:34,260 --> 00:29:36,500 and I flew on a Qantas-branded aircraft, 632 00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:39,060 but never actually worked for Qantas Airways. 633 00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:39,300 but never actually What was that all about? 634 00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:40,540 What was that all about? 635 00:29:40,540 --> 00:29:40,780 This is how the company moves forward now, What was that all about? 636 00:29:40,780 --> 00:29:42,620 This is how the company moves forward now, 637 00:29:42,620 --> 00:29:45,500 so, by creating these wholly-owned subsidiaries 638 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:45,740 so, by creating and small silo companies. 639 00:29:45,740 --> 00:29:47,100 and small silo companies. 640 00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:47,300 and small silo companies. As they do that, 641 00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:48,140 As they do that, 642 00:29:48,140 --> 00:29:48,380 they manage to water down As they do that, 643 00:29:48,380 --> 00:29:51,700 they manage to water down the pay and conditions each time 644 00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:54,980 to slowly erode the high value of pay and conditions 645 00:29:54,980 --> 00:29:57,860 that once existed in the legacy part of the airline. 646 00:29:57,860 --> 00:29:59,820 So, this is my little coffee table of memories. 647 00:30:00,780 --> 00:30:04,780 Matthew Allsop was hired by a new Qantas subsidiary, 648 00:30:04,780 --> 00:30:05,020 Matthew Allsop was hired Qantas Cabin Crew Australia, 649 00:30:05,020 --> 00:30:07,260 Qantas Cabin Crew Australia, 650 00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:10,660 in advance of the launch of the Qantas A380s. 651 00:30:10,660 --> 00:30:10,900 in advance of the launch That's my 10-year service pin. 652 00:30:10,900 --> 00:30:12,820 That's my 10-year service pin. 653 00:30:12,820 --> 00:30:16,860 He worked alongside staff employed by other Qantas subsidiaries 654 00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:18,260 in different countries 655 00:30:18,260 --> 00:30:21,100 on entirely different pay. 656 00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:23,580 I spent eight and a half years on the A380 aircraft, 657 00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:27,140 so, probably my favourite aircraft I ever worked on. 658 00:30:27,140 --> 00:30:30,100 I was part of the start-up crew for that within the airline. 659 00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:32,660 But on that aircraft, on any given day, 660 00:30:32,660 --> 00:30:35,620 you would have crew employed under four different contracts. 661 00:30:35,620 --> 00:30:41,220 So, we had our wholly-owned New Zealand-based subsidiary, 662 00:30:41,220 --> 00:30:43,660 the UK-based subsidiary 663 00:30:43,660 --> 00:30:45,860 and then you had your two Australian subsidiaries. 664 00:30:45,860 --> 00:30:48,740 And when you equated their hourly rates and conditions, 665 00:30:48,740 --> 00:30:48,980 And when you equated one legacy crew, for example, 666 00:30:48,980 --> 00:30:50,700 one legacy crew, for example, 667 00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:53,620 would get you two Kiwis, three UKs 668 00:30:53,620 --> 00:30:56,580 or two Qantas Cabin Crew Australias. 669 00:30:56,580 --> 00:30:58,180 So, all four of those 670 00:30:58,180 --> 00:30:58,420 working together side by side, So, all four of those 671 00:30:58,420 --> 00:31:01,420 working together side by side, pushing carts, handing out meals 672 00:31:01,420 --> 00:31:01,660 working together side by side, on one plane. 673 00:31:01,660 --> 00:31:02,980 on one plane. 674 00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:05,260 George Orwell summed it up perfectly in his quote that, 675 00:31:05,260 --> 00:31:05,500 George Orwell summed it up perfectly "All animals are created equal, 676 00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:07,060 "All animals are created equal, 677 00:31:07,060 --> 00:31:07,300 "but some animals "All animals are created equal, 678 00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:09,340 "but some animals are more equal than others." 679 00:31:09,340 --> 00:31:13,900 And that was our working environment onboard that aircraft every day. 680 00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:18,900 (ENGINES WHINE) 681 00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:20,580 On Qantas Domestic, 682 00:31:20,580 --> 00:31:25,100 hourly base rates can vary from about $40 for legacy staff 683 00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:29,940 down to just $23 for newer staff hired through a subsidiary. 684 00:31:29,940 --> 00:31:32,740 I don't work for a tea and coffee company. 685 00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:34,460 I work in a safety environment 686 00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:36,940 and I work on a heavy piece of machinery. 687 00:31:36,940 --> 00:31:39,340 I am the airline's first responder. 688 00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:39,580 If there is a fire, I am the airline's first responder. 689 00:31:39,580 --> 00:31:42,700 If there is a fire, I'm required to run towards it. 690 00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:42,940 If there is a fire, If there is a medical emergency, 691 00:31:42,940 --> 00:31:44,540 If there is a medical emergency, 692 00:31:44,540 --> 00:31:47,500 I'm required to run towards it and render all help. 693 00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:49,860 So, for that critical safety-sensitive role, 694 00:31:49,860 --> 00:31:51,300 basically people are now being paid 695 00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:54,180 the same as if they worked in a fast-food outlet 696 00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:54,420 the same as if they worked or worked at a supermarket. 697 00:31:54,420 --> 00:31:55,660 or worked at a supermarket. 698 00:31:55,660 --> 00:31:59,220 How does Qantas rank as an employer? 699 00:31:59,220 --> 00:31:59,460 Well, I think it's fair to say Qantas is a militant employer. How does Qantas rank as an employer? 700 00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:02,660 Well, I think it's fair to say Qantas is a militant employer. 701 00:32:02,660 --> 00:32:06,260 It's been prepared to take every angle under the act. 702 00:32:06,260 --> 00:32:06,540 It's been prepared to take every angle under the act. It's been prepared to take really destructive decisions 703 00:32:06,540 --> 00:32:10,020 It's been prepared to take really destructive decisions 704 00:32:10,020 --> 00:32:10,260 It's been prepared in pursuit of the bottom line. 705 00:32:10,260 --> 00:32:12,820 in pursuit of the bottom line. 706 00:32:12,820 --> 00:32:13,060 (PROTESTER CHANTS INDISTINCTLY) in pursuit of the bottom line. 707 00:32:13,060 --> 00:32:18,180 (PROTESTER CHANTS INDISTINCTLY) (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) 708 00:32:18,180 --> 00:32:18,420 (PROTESTER CHANTS INDISTINCTLY) We stick together! 709 00:32:18,420 --> 00:32:19,380 We stick together! 710 00:32:19,380 --> 00:32:22,140 (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) 711 00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:23,420 People who come to work with us 712 00:32:23,420 --> 00:32:25,900 should be getting the same rate of pay that we get. 713 00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:30,620 In 2011, Qantas took one of the most militant industrial actions 714 00:32:30,620 --> 00:32:30,860 In 2011, Qantas took one of the most the country has ever seen. 715 00:32:30,860 --> 00:32:33,620 the country has ever seen. 716 00:32:33,620 --> 00:32:35,420 We have decided to ground 717 00:32:35,420 --> 00:32:40,380 the Qantas international and domestic fleets immediately. 718 00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:44,180 I repeat - we are grounding the Qantas fleet now. 719 00:32:44,180 --> 00:32:46,420 (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) 720 00:32:46,420 --> 00:32:47,780 This extraordinary move 721 00:32:47,780 --> 00:32:52,500 left tens of thousands of passengers stranded worldwide. 722 00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:56,540 It was a response to protracted union campaigns 723 00:32:56,540 --> 00:32:59,020 for new agreements with job-security clauses. 724 00:32:59,020 --> 00:33:01,100 Till we get clear with them what's going on. 725 00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:04,620 The TWU was offered an exceptional deal 726 00:33:04,620 --> 00:33:08,420 but is sticking to its completely unrealistic claim 727 00:33:08,420 --> 00:33:12,580 that would prevent us from the sensible use of contractors. 728 00:33:12,580 --> 00:33:15,300 GROUP: (CHANTS) United we won't be defeated! 729 00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:15,540 GROUP: (CHANTS) Qantas scored a decisive win. 730 00:33:15,540 --> 00:33:18,420 Qantas scored a decisive win. 731 00:33:18,420 --> 00:33:19,820 To stem the economic harm, 732 00:33:19,820 --> 00:33:21,540 FairWork intervened 733 00:33:21,540 --> 00:33:24,140 and threw out the union demands. 734 00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:27,380 SHAE MCCRYSTAL: Qantas inflicted massive damage 735 00:33:27,380 --> 00:33:31,940 on its own brand, on consumers and on the economy 736 00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:34,900 in order to engineer an outcome. 737 00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:36,420 And what it wanted 738 00:33:36,420 --> 00:33:36,660 was ultimately And what it wanted 739 00:33:36,660 --> 00:33:39,220 was ultimately to be able to outsource 740 00:33:39,220 --> 00:33:42,180 its ground handling and other operations. 741 00:33:42,180 --> 00:33:42,420 its ground handling (PROTESTER SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) 742 00:33:42,420 --> 00:33:44,340 (PROTESTER SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) 743 00:33:44,340 --> 00:33:44,580 KEITH MARRIOTT: (PROTESTER SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) 744 00:33:44,580 --> 00:33:46,580 KEITH MARRIOTT: It was totally unnecessary. 745 00:33:46,580 --> 00:33:50,500 I believe it could have been a negotiated settlement. 746 00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:50,780 Not only did it cause massive anxiety to Qantas families, I believe it could have been a negotiated settlement. 747 00:33:50,780 --> 00:33:55,380 Not only did it cause massive anxiety to Qantas families, 748 00:33:55,380 --> 00:33:55,620 Not only did it cause but it broke the trust 749 00:33:55,620 --> 00:33:57,380 but it broke the trust 750 00:33:57,380 --> 00:33:57,620 but it broke the trust between Qantas pilots and the company, 751 00:33:57,620 --> 00:33:59,940 between Qantas pilots and the company, 752 00:33:59,940 --> 00:34:01,580 and I don't think it's ever been recovered. 753 00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:09,620 Pilot Keith Marriott is a Qantas veteran. 754 00:34:10,580 --> 00:34:14,460 My career started with Qantas in 1984. 755 00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:18,700 I had a glorious career, which finished in December 2020. 756 00:34:18,700 --> 00:34:20,420 So, 36 years with the company. 757 00:34:21,780 --> 00:34:27,380 I had a command on a 747 when I was age 37, so I was absolutely blessed, 758 00:34:27,380 --> 00:34:31,060 and I totally enjoyed my time with Qantas. 759 00:34:31,060 --> 00:34:34,220 I considered it to be one of the greatest privileges 760 00:34:34,220 --> 00:34:34,460 I considered it that anyone could have. 761 00:34:34,460 --> 00:34:35,700 that anyone could have. 762 00:34:35,700 --> 00:34:37,660 I couldn't have scripted a better career. 763 00:34:37,660 --> 00:34:41,740 This photograph is a Boeing 767, 764 00:34:41,740 --> 00:34:46,780 it's the type of airline I got my first command on back in 1994. 765 00:34:46,780 --> 00:34:47,020 it's the type of airline I got For a couple of years 766 00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:48,660 For a couple of years 767 00:34:48,660 --> 00:34:48,900 Keith Marriott For a couple of years 768 00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:51,860 Keith Marriott was active in the Pilots Association 769 00:34:51,860 --> 00:34:52,100 Keith Marriott on top of his Qantas job. 770 00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:53,900 on top of his Qantas job. 771 00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:56,900 How do you feel about what's happening with Qantas now? 772 00:34:56,900 --> 00:34:57,140 How do you feel about I'm saddened. Deeply saddened. 773 00:34:57,140 --> 00:34:59,380 I'm saddened. Deeply saddened. 774 00:34:59,380 --> 00:34:59,620 Both as an ex-Qantas captain I'm saddened. Deeply saddened. 775 00:34:59,620 --> 00:35:03,500 Both as an ex-Qantas captain and as a frequent flyer 776 00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:06,020 I've been loyal to the company for a long time. 777 00:35:06,020 --> 00:35:08,260 I don't think they value their workforce. 778 00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:11,220 I think their workforce are taken for granted. 779 00:35:11,220 --> 00:35:13,900 I think their passengers are taken for granted. 780 00:35:13,900 --> 00:35:18,460 And, you know, their greatest asset IS a loyal workforce. 781 00:35:18,460 --> 00:35:18,700 And, you know, their greatest asset I don't know what the answer is. 782 00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:21,020 I don't know what the answer is. 783 00:35:21,020 --> 00:35:21,260 Certainly they need to have a look I don't know what the answer is. 784 00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:27,580 Certainly they need to have a look at the entire business model 785 00:35:27,580 --> 00:35:30,060 and figure that nickel-and-diming people 786 00:35:30,060 --> 00:35:30,300 and figure is not the way to make this airline 787 00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:31,780 is not the way to make this airline 788 00:35:31,780 --> 00:35:32,020 profitable and functional is not the way to make this airline 789 00:35:32,020 --> 00:35:33,860 profitable and functional once again. 790 00:35:33,860 --> 00:35:37,420 He says Qantas has played divide and conquer. 791 00:35:37,420 --> 00:35:40,220 For pilots, job security is everything. 792 00:35:40,220 --> 00:35:42,740 It takes a long time to become a pilot. 793 00:35:42,740 --> 00:35:45,780 You put a lot of hard work into it. 794 00:35:45,780 --> 00:35:50,300 You basically fully commit your life to the job. 795 00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:53,660 There's no other job which is under so much scrutiny. 796 00:35:54,620 --> 00:35:59,300 And you're trained to a very high level, 797 00:35:59,300 --> 00:35:59,540 And you're trained but your skills are not portable, 798 00:35:59,540 --> 00:36:02,220 but your skills are not portable, 799 00:36:02,220 --> 00:36:05,940 therefore, job security is absolutely paramount. 800 00:36:05,940 --> 00:36:08,660 And pilots cherish their job security. 801 00:36:08,660 --> 00:36:08,900 And pilots And, unfortunately, 802 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:10,580 And, unfortunately, 803 00:36:10,580 --> 00:36:17,540 that has been used in successive EBAs as a threat to the pilots - 804 00:36:17,540 --> 00:36:20,300 "If you don't comply with what we want, 805 00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:22,020 "we'll find someone else that will." 806 00:36:24,540 --> 00:36:26,020 TONY LUCAS: In terms of pilots, 807 00:36:26,020 --> 00:36:28,820 one of the things that Qantas has done very successfully 808 00:36:28,820 --> 00:36:30,540 because the law allows them to 809 00:36:30,540 --> 00:36:36,140 is that they've acquired or set up subsidiary airline groups. 810 00:36:36,140 --> 00:36:36,380 And then what they do is that they've acquired or set up subsidiary airline groups. 811 00:36:36,380 --> 00:36:37,260 And then what they do 812 00:36:37,260 --> 00:36:37,500 is they play one group of pilots And then what they do 813 00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:40,140 is they play one group of pilots off another group 814 00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:40,380 is they play one group of pilots and essentially threaten to 815 00:36:40,380 --> 00:36:42,940 and essentially threaten to 816 00:36:42,940 --> 00:36:43,180 and essentially threaten to take the flying that a group of pilots is currently doing 817 00:36:43,180 --> 00:36:45,740 take the flying that a group of pilots is currently doing 818 00:36:45,740 --> 00:36:47,940 and give it to another group of pilots. 819 00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:01,100 NEWSREADER: Qantas is soaring to new heights, 820 00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:04,620 on track to launch the world's longest non-stop commercial flight. 821 00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:04,860 While journalists did puff pieces on track to launch the world's longest non-stop commercial flight. 822 00:37:04,860 --> 00:37:06,460 While journalists did puff pieces 823 00:37:06,460 --> 00:37:10,660 on Qantas's plans for ultra-long-haul flights on new planes... 824 00:37:10,660 --> 00:37:10,940 on Qantas's plans for ultra-long-haul flights on new planes... NEWSREADER: We joined the flight at Heathrow as guests of the airline... 825 00:37:10,940 --> 00:37:13,300 NEWSREADER: We joined the flight at Heathrow as guests of the airline... 826 00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:16,500 ..they missed the industrial-relations back story. 827 00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:18,740 Qantas told its long-haul pilots 828 00:37:18,740 --> 00:37:21,820 that, unless they met its 'investment case' for the new planes, 829 00:37:21,820 --> 00:37:22,060 that, unless they met its it would have no choice 830 00:37:22,060 --> 00:37:23,860 it would have no choice 831 00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:25,860 but to give the work to a new company 832 00:37:25,860 --> 00:37:30,100 employing new pilots "that can provide the cost base we need." 833 00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:32,740 TONY LUCAS: Ultimately, they put a metaphorical gun to our head 834 00:37:32,740 --> 00:37:32,980 TONY LUCAS: Ultimately, they put and they said to us that, 835 00:37:32,980 --> 00:37:34,340 and they said to us that, 836 00:37:34,340 --> 00:37:34,580 "If you don't agree to the terms and and they said to us that, 837 00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:37,100 "If you don't agree to the terms and conditions...it's a one-off deal," 838 00:37:37,100 --> 00:37:39,020 that if we don't agree to the terms and conditions 839 00:37:39,020 --> 00:37:39,260 that if we don't agree that were being offered, 840 00:37:39,260 --> 00:37:40,540 that were being offered, 841 00:37:40,540 --> 00:37:44,500 then they would give that flying to another entity. 842 00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:49,980 It used the same tactics with short-haul pilots. 843 00:37:49,980 --> 00:37:50,260 The stress affiliated with this is underestimated. It used the same tactics with short-haul pilots. 844 00:37:50,260 --> 00:37:53,260 The stress affiliated with this is underestimated. 845 00:37:53,260 --> 00:37:57,460 When you mix a safety-critical role with a threat of losing your job, 846 00:37:57,460 --> 00:37:59,340 then it really only ends one way. 847 00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:03,900 A mistake will be made, there will be an incident, 848 00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:06,780 and there could be devastating consequences as a result. 849 00:38:07,740 --> 00:38:09,300 And I believe that Qantas management 850 00:38:09,300 --> 00:38:13,100 are underestimating the impact of their behaviour. 851 00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:21,300 Qantas ground handler Don Dixon is heading from south-western Sydney 852 00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:23,820 to a pub not far from the airport. 853 00:38:23,820 --> 00:38:24,060 He's meeting up there to a pub not far from the airport. 854 00:38:24,060 --> 00:38:26,860 He's meeting up there with some of his old work mates. 855 00:38:26,860 --> 00:38:30,380 DON DIXON: It's great to catch up, you know, 856 00:38:30,380 --> 00:38:32,260 we have a bit of a laugh about the old times 857 00:38:32,260 --> 00:38:34,020 and some of the things that happened. 858 00:38:34,020 --> 00:38:36,900 For many years Don was the chief union delegate 859 00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:37,140 For many years for the workers Qantas retrenched. 860 00:38:37,140 --> 00:38:39,020 for the workers Qantas retrenched. 861 00:38:39,020 --> 00:38:43,540 Now, sometimes, he's more like a Lifeline counsellor. 862 00:38:43,540 --> 00:38:45,900 How many calls do you get? 863 00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:48,300 I could get sometimes 20 a day. 864 00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:49,780 Wow. Wow. 865 00:38:56,260 --> 00:38:57,660 G'day, guys. 866 00:38:57,660 --> 00:39:01,060 Hey, Don! How're you going? This is Stephen from the ABC. 867 00:39:01,060 --> 00:39:03,140 G'day. Steve, Four Corners. Hey, Steve. 868 00:39:03,140 --> 00:39:03,380 G'day. Steve, Four Corners. Steve, how're you going? 869 00:39:03,380 --> 00:39:04,500 Steve, how're you going? 870 00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:04,740 (GROANS) Steve, how're you going? 871 00:39:04,740 --> 00:39:07,780 (GROANS) Well, interesting times isn't it? 872 00:39:07,780 --> 00:39:08,020 (GROANS) It IS an interesting time. 873 00:39:08,020 --> 00:39:09,260 It IS an interesting time. 874 00:39:09,260 --> 00:39:12,780 So, what about the executives coming out onto the ramp? 875 00:39:12,780 --> 00:39:13,020 So, what about the executives On the day of the gathering 876 00:39:13,020 --> 00:39:14,260 On the day of the gathering 877 00:39:14,260 --> 00:39:14,500 news had broken that Qantas wanted On the day of the gathering 878 00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:18,020 news had broken that Qantas wanted at least a hundred managers 879 00:39:18,020 --> 00:39:20,980 to volunteer to work as baggage handlers 880 00:39:20,980 --> 00:39:25,620 in a desperate bid to stem the flight delays and cancellations. 881 00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:27,460 They think an executive's going to be on his knees 882 00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:31,580 for, you know, an hour and turn... you know, lifting 32-kilo bags. 883 00:39:31,580 --> 00:39:34,100 A hold full - I'm not talking about one bag, 884 00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:37,700 I'm talking about 150 bags and freight. 885 00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:40,340 Were you slightly amused when you saw that they were going to get managers 886 00:39:40,340 --> 00:39:40,580 Were you slightly amused when you saw to do the jobs that you used to do? 887 00:39:40,580 --> 00:39:42,540 to do the jobs that you used to do? 888 00:39:42,540 --> 00:39:44,100 I was just shocked 889 00:39:44,100 --> 00:39:44,340 that they were going use managers I was just shocked 890 00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:47,340 that they were going use managers and executives to do it. 891 00:39:47,340 --> 00:39:49,180 It's not an easy thing to learn overnight. 892 00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:52,940 It takes months to learn how to load an aircraft. 893 00:39:52,940 --> 00:39:53,180 It takes months Last year the Federal Court ruled 894 00:39:53,180 --> 00:39:55,420 Last year the Federal Court ruled 895 00:39:55,420 --> 00:39:55,660 that Qantas unlawfully terminated Last year the Federal Court ruled 896 00:39:55,660 --> 00:39:58,580 that Qantas unlawfully terminated these workers 897 00:39:58,580 --> 00:39:58,820 that Qantas unlawfully terminated and their 1,700 colleagues. 898 00:39:58,820 --> 00:40:01,060 and their 1,700 colleagues. 899 00:40:01,060 --> 00:40:05,300 It found that Qantas seized on a vanishing window of opportunity 900 00:40:05,300 --> 00:40:06,660 to retrench the workers 901 00:40:06,660 --> 00:40:09,140 when they were stood down during COVID 902 00:40:09,140 --> 00:40:13,100 and before they gained the right to take lawful industrial action. 903 00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:15,500 I've got a family that I need to support. 904 00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:17,140 I'm dealing with other issues at the moment. 905 00:40:18,100 --> 00:40:20,420 But it was a hollow victory. 906 00:40:20,420 --> 00:40:20,660 With the work already outsourced, But it was a hollow victory. 907 00:40:20,660 --> 00:40:25,140 With the work already outsourced, they didn't get their jobs back. 908 00:40:25,140 --> 00:40:25,420 Well, the court ultimately said, "Too hard to unscramble the egg. With the work already outsourced, they didn't get their jobs back. 909 00:40:25,420 --> 00:40:28,260 Well, the court ultimately said, "Too hard to unscramble the egg. 910 00:40:28,260 --> 00:40:31,500 "And even if we did, if we reinstated these workers, 911 00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:34,380 "Qantas has made it clear, and we accept, 912 00:40:34,380 --> 00:40:34,660 "Qantas has made it clear, and we accept, "that they would simply sack the workers again." 913 00:40:34,660 --> 00:40:36,700 "that they would simply sack the workers again." 914 00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:36,940 "that they would (CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK) 915 00:40:36,940 --> 00:40:38,740 (CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK) 916 00:40:38,740 --> 00:40:42,820 25 August this year and it's a big day for Alan Joyce - 917 00:40:42,820 --> 00:40:45,940 the release of the annual financial results. 918 00:40:45,940 --> 00:40:46,180 the release He's fronting the media. 919 00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:47,660 He's fronting the media. 920 00:40:47,660 --> 00:40:51,820 It's fair to say this has been an extremely challenging time 921 00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:52,060 It's fair to say this has been for the Qantas Group, 922 00:40:52,060 --> 00:40:53,860 for the Qantas Group, 923 00:40:53,860 --> 00:40:54,100 for our people for the Qantas Group, 924 00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:57,180 for our people and unfortunately for our customers. 925 00:40:57,180 --> 00:40:57,420 for our people Delayed flights... 926 00:40:57,420 --> 00:40:58,660 Delayed flights... 927 00:40:58,660 --> 00:41:01,860 Unsurprisingly, Qantas posted a big loss, 928 00:41:01,860 --> 00:41:03,780 but the boss is upbeat. 929 00:41:03,780 --> 00:41:06,580 Our demand is at record levels at the moment. 930 00:41:06,580 --> 00:41:10,900 We're actually seeing huge demand in leisure, in business, 931 00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:11,140 We're actually seeing huge demand we're winning corporate accounts. 932 00:41:11,140 --> 00:41:12,740 we're winning corporate accounts. 933 00:41:12,740 --> 00:41:12,980 After some fairly tame questions we're winning corporate accounts. 934 00:41:12,980 --> 00:41:16,500 After some fairly tame questions from journalists, 935 00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:20,500 we put to him a core issue raised by this report. 936 00:41:20,500 --> 00:41:20,740 we put to him Mr Joyce, is it fair 937 00:41:20,740 --> 00:41:22,340 Mr Joyce, is it fair 938 00:41:22,340 --> 00:41:22,580 to have people working side-by-side Mr Joyce, is it fair 939 00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:28,020 to have people working side-by-side doing the same job, 940 00:41:28,020 --> 00:41:32,580 employed by different companies on entirely different rates of pay, 941 00:41:32,580 --> 00:41:34,860 all wearing the Qantas uniform? 942 00:41:35,820 --> 00:41:39,700 Well, Stephen, that's a thing that's done... 943 00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:42,220 ..that's a thing that's done around the industry 944 00:41:42,220 --> 00:41:46,500 and there's a lot of other companies do the exact same thing. 945 00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:50,580 What we have had to do over the years is become efficient 946 00:41:50,580 --> 00:41:53,740 to be able to compete in a very competitive market. 947 00:41:53,740 --> 00:41:57,180 I would say that the Australian domestic market 948 00:41:57,180 --> 00:42:00,220 is the most competitive in the world. 949 00:42:00,220 --> 00:42:05,620 We have seen airlines like Virgin, like Bonza, like Rex 950 00:42:05,620 --> 00:42:08,780 come into the market and start up from scratch, 951 00:42:08,780 --> 00:42:15,380 and the national carrier, to survive, has to have adapted to it. 952 00:42:15,380 --> 00:42:16,900 Is it fair? 953 00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:20,660 It's a necessity for us to keep... 954 00:42:20,660 --> 00:42:23,500 ..to keep our business going. 955 00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:27,140 The Qantas strategy is now under threat. 956 00:42:27,140 --> 00:42:27,380 The Qantas strategy There is a new federal government 957 00:42:27,380 --> 00:42:28,780 There is a new federal government 958 00:42:28,780 --> 00:42:29,020 elected on a mandate There is a new federal government 959 00:42:29,020 --> 00:42:32,180 elected on a mandate of 'same job, same pay'. 960 00:42:32,180 --> 00:42:36,740 How are you anticipating that will affect your business model? 961 00:42:36,740 --> 00:42:38,980 So, same job, same pay, 962 00:42:38,980 --> 00:42:42,180 we're obviously, like everybody, talking to the government about it. 963 00:42:42,180 --> 00:42:45,220 But can I ask, so, how do you define that? 964 00:42:45,220 --> 00:42:45,460 But can I ask, So, somebody flying a Dash-8, 965 00:42:45,460 --> 00:42:47,700 So, somebody flying a Dash-8, 966 00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:51,020 should they get the same pay as somebody flying an A380? 967 00:42:51,020 --> 00:42:52,660 Because it's the same job, it's a pilot. 968 00:42:52,660 --> 00:42:55,660 What about cabin crew working side by side 969 00:42:55,660 --> 00:42:58,700 employed by different entities, some within the Qantas Group? 970 00:42:58,700 --> 00:42:59,980 Stephen, I'd ask you 971 00:42:59,980 --> 00:43:02,660 to respect that we are here to talk about the results. 972 00:43:07,420 --> 00:43:11,700 We spent two months trying to secure an interview with Alan Joyce. 973 00:43:11,700 --> 00:43:15,420 He demanded any interview must run in one long continuous take 974 00:43:15,420 --> 00:43:15,660 He demanded any interview as if it was live to air, 975 00:43:15,660 --> 00:43:17,900 as if it was live to air, 976 00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:21,220 which doesn't fit the Four Corners format. 977 00:43:21,220 --> 00:43:24,020 I'm happy to do it, you've got an invite from me 978 00:43:24,020 --> 00:43:26,740 to do a full sit-down interview, to do a live. 979 00:43:26,740 --> 00:43:31,500 You can have me for 15 minutes, 20 minutes to cover all these issues. 980 00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:34,500 My efforts to interview him here were cut short. 981 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:39,540 Not long after, I was escorted from the building by security. 982 00:43:39,540 --> 00:43:40,580 Get back to profit... 983 00:43:40,580 --> 00:43:42,220 The Qantas boss says 984 00:43:42,220 --> 00:43:45,500 the worst of the delays, cancellations and baggage woes 985 00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:46,620 is over 986 00:43:46,620 --> 00:43:49,100 and service will soon be back to normal. 987 00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:52,140 But we will fix it, and it's gonna be fixed pretty rapidly, 988 00:43:52,140 --> 00:43:52,380 But we will fix it, and and we know the brand will recover. 989 00:43:52,380 --> 00:43:54,340 and we know the brand will recover. 990 00:43:55,460 --> 00:44:01,780 Rebuilding trust with the public and its workforce might take longer. 991 00:44:04,020 --> 00:44:05,500 FLIGHT ATTENDANT: The cuts that have come 992 00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:05,740 FLIGHT ATTENDANT: from the decisions of management 993 00:44:05,740 --> 00:44:07,380 from the decisions of management 994 00:44:07,380 --> 00:44:10,980 have been incredibly, incredibly deep. 995 00:44:10,980 --> 00:44:14,180 And I feel like it's possibly too deep, 996 00:44:14,180 --> 00:44:18,740 which is now impacting upon the customer experience. 997 00:44:18,740 --> 00:44:19,020 We always used to love working for Qantas, which is now impacting upon the customer experience. 998 00:44:19,020 --> 00:44:20,900 We always used to love working for Qantas, 999 00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:24,660 and now it just makes us feel like, you know, we're disposable 1000 00:44:24,660 --> 00:44:26,460 and almost like the company hates us. 1001 00:44:29,100 --> 00:44:32,500 PILOT: I feel like the staff have been beaten down, 1002 00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:32,740 PILOT: I feel like the staff especially the staff 1003 00:44:32,740 --> 00:44:33,540 especially the staff 1004 00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:33,780 that we deal with on a day-to-day especially the staff 1005 00:44:33,780 --> 00:44:36,460 that we deal with on a day-to-day basis around aeroplanes - 1006 00:44:36,460 --> 00:44:36,700 that we deal with on a day-to-day ground staff, check-in staff. 1007 00:44:36,700 --> 00:44:39,140 ground staff, check-in staff. 1008 00:44:39,140 --> 00:44:39,340 They've been beaten down. ground staff, check-in staff. 1009 00:44:39,340 --> 00:44:41,660 They've been beaten down. 1010 00:44:41,660 --> 00:44:43,340 They're not the same. 1011 00:45:02,260 --> 00:45:04,260 Captions by Red Bee Media 1012 00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:06,460 Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation