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(THEME MUSIC PLAYS)
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BEN DOHERTY:
Two men accused of participating
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in one of the worst atrocities
of the 20th century
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in one of the worst atrocities
are believed to be in Australia.
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are believed to be in Australia.
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Is that Frodouard Rukeshangabo
are believed to be in Australia.
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Is that Frodouard Rukeshangabo
speaking?
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(ON SPEAKERPHONE)
This is Frodouard. How are you?
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One of them
is living in suburban Queensland.
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The other is a ghost.
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It's better we leave it.
It's better stop this conversation.
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More than half a million people
were killed
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during the genocide
against the Tutsi in Rwanda.
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Do you know who this man is?
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30 years later, hundreds of alleged
perpetrators are still at large.
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Survivors want justice.
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If you could speak
with Celestin Munyaburanga,
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what would you say to him?
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Genocide
is not a crime that grows over.
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The two men,
believed to be in Australia,
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have been convicted in absentia
by traditional courts...
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Yeah, very heavy.
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..part of a truth and reconciliation
process.
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Now the Rwandan government wants them
back to face justice in new trials.
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PHIL CLARK:
Extradition is the best response
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if there is sufficient
prima facie evidence
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to suggest
that a trial is necessary.
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Rwanda has sent indictments
to Australia for both men.
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We invite the Australian police,
together with the prosecution,
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We invite the Australian police,
to come to Rwanda.
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to come to Rwanda.
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Is the Australian government
doing enough
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to bring alleged perpetrators
to justice?
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GRAHAM BLEWITT:
It's just a lack of a political will
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to do something about it,
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and, frankly, that has to change.
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We go back to Rwanda
in search of answers.
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Oh, hi. This is Frida Umuhoza.
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Frida Umuhoza
is visiting a school in Melbourne
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to talk to teenagers about genocide.
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(HUBBUB)
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Oh, we've got to connect you
(HUBBUB)
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Oh, we've got to connect you
to the internet.
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At just 14
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she was the only member of her family
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to survive Rwanda's 1994 genocide
she was the only member of her family
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to survive Rwanda's 1994 genocide
against its Tutsi minority.
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Can you please put your hands
together and welcome Frida?
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(APPLAUSE)
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Good afternoon.
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Frida first learned the Tutsis
were hated when she started school.
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Every three months, every time
the beginning of the term,
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the principal of the school
will come into every class
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and count how many Tutsis and
how many Hutus are in that class.
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and count how many Tutsis and
And we were made fun of.
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And we were made fun of.
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We were called snakes.
We were called cockroaches.
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So, really, we were less
than human beings to them.
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(TRADITIONAL MUSIC PLAYS, CHATTER)
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Belgium, the former colonial power,
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favoured Rwanda's
minority Tutsi ethnic group
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over the majority Hutus,
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and there'd been long-standing
tension and violence between the two.
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ARCHIVE REPORTER: Rwandan officials
say the plane was shot down.
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The assassination of Rwanda's
Hutu president Juvenal Habyarimana
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The assassination of Rwanda's
in April 1994
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in April 1994
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was the catalyst for genocide.
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Hutu militia and civilians
murdered their Tutsi neighbours
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as well as many moderate Hutus.
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Nothing and nowhere was sacred
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in this state-sponsored genocide.
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(EXHALES HEAVILY)
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(GADGET BEEPS)
OK.
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Four Corners
was reporting on the massacres.
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It's very, very hard to...
Four Corners
was reporting on the massacres.
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It's very, very hard to...
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..to comprehend
what it's like to be here.
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It's... It's very, very hard
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It's... It's very, very hard
to be here.
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to be here.
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You do not know
what feeling you have
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knowing that
few hours from now
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knowing that
you're gonna die.
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you're gonna die.
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They finished killing our neighbours
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and then they got to us.
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You could choose.
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"Do you want to be killed
with a machete, a club or a knife
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"or a big tree with nails?"
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And I picked a young man with a club
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and I said,
"Please, don't use a machete on me."
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The one image
that tormented me for years
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was my mother's head
being chopped off.
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Once he hit me,
I lost my consciousness.
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I didn't wake up until everybody
had died and they are burying.
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Long story short,
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I made it out on my own.
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So, ladies and gentlemen,
that's my story.
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So, ladies and gentlemen,
And God bless all of you.
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And God bless all of you.
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(APPLAUSE)
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At least two-thirds
of Rwanda's Tutsi population -
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At least two-thirds
more than half a million people -
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more than half a million people -
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were killed in just over 100 days.
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It only ended when a Tutsi rebel army
took control of the country.
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Survivors had to rebuild their lives
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knowing that some of the people
who committed these crimes
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escaped justice.
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Are these people...do they watch us?
Do they know where we are?
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So, a lot of people
live with monsters
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in their...in their lives,
in their sleep,
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in their everyday life.
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After the genocide ended
in July 1994,
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up to two million people fled Rwanda,
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including an unknown number
of the killers.
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I've been told that two alleged
perpetrators are here in Australia.
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You say you don't drink
any...no milk, nothing?
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You say you don't drink
No milk, no...
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No milk, no...
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One came from the same district
No milk, no...
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One came from the same district
in southern Rwanda as Frida,
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One came from the same district
and I want to ask her about him.
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and I want to ask her about him.
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Thank you very much.
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Frida, we've obtained a copy
Thank you very much.
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Frida, we've obtained a copy
of this 2017 indictment.
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This was sent
by the Rwandan government
Frida, we've obtained a copy
of this 2017 indictment.
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This was sent
by the Rwandan government
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This was sent
to the Australian government.
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to the Australian government.
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It's an indictment
and an international arrest warrant
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It's an indictment
and an international arrest warrant
for a man
called Celestin Munyaburanga.
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for a man
called Celestin Munyaburanga.
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for a man
Yeah?
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Yeah?
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Celestin Munyaburanga
was from Nyanza.
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Yep.
Which is the district...
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Where I come from.
..in Rwanda where you are from.
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Where I come from.
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It says now that he's in Canberra.
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We can't find him.
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We're interested,
if you could look at that document
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to see if anything in there
is familiar
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and if anything you recognise.
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The indictment alleges
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that Munyaburanga set up a roadblock
The indictment alleges
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that Munyaburanga set up a roadblock
with soldiers
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that Munyaburanga set up a roadblock
in a neighbourhood called Hanika,
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in a neighbourhood called Hanika,
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where at least 20 Tutsis were killed
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with traditional weapons
where at least 20 Tutsis were killed
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with traditional weapons
like machetes and clubs.
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Yeah, I know Vanessa Rugero because
they're extended family of mine.
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Yeah.
That's a family member of yours?
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Yeah.
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(QUIETLY) Yeah.
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I appreciate it's very difficult
to read. I'm sorry.
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It is.
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Frida didn't know Munyaburanga.
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He wasn't involved
in the attack on her family.
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(PHONE LINE RINGS)
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But she knows many other survivors
(PHONE LINE RINGS)
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But she knows many other survivors
who come from Nyanza.
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She's speaking
to a school friend's mum.
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She wasn't an eyewitness,
but she's heard the allegations.
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Frida's told that Munyaburanga
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used to be the headmaster
Frida's told that Munyaburanga
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used to be the headmaster
of a local school,
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and that he may have absconded
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while waiting for his trial
in a community court,
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which later sentenced him
to life imprisonment.
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I want to learn more
about the allegations,
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I want to learn more
so, we're going to Rwanda.
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so, we're going to Rwanda.
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Pursuing justice for crimes committed
by tens of thousands of people
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Pursuing justice for crimes committed
hasn't been straightforward.
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hasn't been straightforward.
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How do you plead
to count one genocide?
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The major players
were hunted down and prosecuted
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at the International
Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.
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It took two decades
to convict 61 people.
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In Rwanda the justice system
simply couldn't cope
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with tens of thousands
of alleged perpetrators
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held for years without trial
in overflowing jails.
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Over there are lavatories,
perhaps two of them,
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and I'm told
there's two more upstairs.
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and I'm told
There's for 8,000 people.
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There's for 8,000 people.
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There's for 8,000 people.
It's the most extraordinary scene
I've ever seen in my life,
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It's the most extraordinary scene
I've ever seen in my life,
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and I hope
I never see anything like it again.
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So, it adopted a radically different
approach to justice
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based on its own system
of traditional community courts.
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based on its own system
(SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
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(SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
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They were known as 'Gacaca',
or 'grass courts',
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and they emphasised
forgiveness and reconciliation
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and they emphasised
as much as justice and punishment.
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as much as justice and punishment.
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There were no lawyers
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and anyone could speak up
There were no lawyers
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and anyone could speak up
for or against the accused,
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and anyone could speak up
with frequent interruptions.
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with frequent interruptions.
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The verdict was decided
by a panel of lay judges
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elected by their own communities.
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(SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
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By the time they concluded in 2012,
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more than 12,000 Gacaca courts
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had tried over a million cases.
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Critics in the West
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argued it was
Critics in the West
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argued it was
often rough and rushed justice.
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argued it was
(ONLOOKERS EXCLAIM)
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(ONLOOKERS EXCLAIM)
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But Rwandan president, Paul Kagame,
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doesn't think much
of foreign critics.
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They don't care
about what happens to you,
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as they didn't care
during the genocide.
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So, when someone starts
to lecture you on the international
as they didn't care
during the genocide.
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So, when someone starts
to lecture you on the international
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So, when someone starts
to lecture you on the international
standards of justice...
I cannot...
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standards of justice...
I cannot...
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I cannot accept any lecture
from any of these people.
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Rwanda's search for justice
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is complicated
by its history and its president.
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We've been saying if the ceasefire
doesn't have any meaning...
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In 1994 Paul Kagame
was seen as Rwanda's saviour.
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He commanded the rebel Tutsi army
that ended the genocide.
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Ever since, Rwanda has been
a de facto one-party state
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ruled by the Rwandan Patriotic Front
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and its leader.
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(CHEERING, MUSIC)
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He's been accused of imposing
a so-called victor's justice...
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He's been accused of imposing
(CROWD CHANTS)
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(CROWD CHANTS)
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..pursuing genocide suspects
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while consistently failing
to prosecute crimes
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committed by his own army.
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(CHEERING)
244
00:12:57,020 --> 00:12:59,380
Tens of thousands of Hutus
were also killed
245
00:12:59,380 --> 00:13:02,380
by Kagame's troops
in retaliatory attacks,
246
00:13:02,380 --> 00:13:05,860
such as the infamous Kibeho massacre
in 1995,
247
00:13:05,860 --> 00:13:08,860
photographed by Australian artist
George Gittoes.
248
00:13:17,620 --> 00:13:20,260
(CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK)
249
00:13:20,260 --> 00:13:20,500
Kagame's government
(CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK)
250
00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:22,260
Kagame's government
has brought stability
251
00:13:22,260 --> 00:13:24,540
and significant economic development
to Rwanda.
252
00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:24,780
and significant economic development
(CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK)
253
00:13:24,780 --> 00:13:26,220
(CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK)
254
00:13:26,220 --> 00:13:30,620
Kagame, Paul.
255
00:13:30,620 --> 00:13:30,860
But elections are marred
Kagame, Paul.
256
00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:34,180
But elections are marred
by intimidation and fraud,
257
00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:34,420
But elections are marred
journalists have been jailed...
258
00:13:34,420 --> 00:13:36,020
journalists have been jailed...
259
00:13:36,020 --> 00:13:39,860
Do you hold any hope that
you will see your brothers alive?
260
00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:42,100
..and dissidents
say they're being pursued
261
00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:44,060
even on the other side of the world.
262
00:13:44,060 --> 00:13:47,340
Again, I don't think
there's any hope to find them alive.
263
00:13:47,340 --> 00:13:47,580
Again, I don't think
(BIRDS TWITTER)
264
00:13:47,580 --> 00:13:50,940
(BIRDS TWITTER)
265
00:13:50,940 --> 00:13:51,180
So, we're treating the allegations
(BIRDS TWITTER)
266
00:13:51,180 --> 00:13:54,620
So, we're treating the allegations
against both men in our investigation
267
00:13:54,620 --> 00:13:54,860
So, we're treating the allegations
carefully.
268
00:13:54,860 --> 00:13:56,420
carefully.
269
00:14:01,180 --> 00:14:04,020
Local journalist Michee Urinzwenimana
270
00:14:04,020 --> 00:14:05,620
is helping with our investigation
271
00:14:05,620 --> 00:14:09,460
into the alleged perpetrators
believed to be in Australia.
272
00:14:10,580 --> 00:14:13,900
So, this school is called Hanika.
273
00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:17,260
It's the school
where Munyaburanga was headmaster.
274
00:14:17,260 --> 00:14:19,420
This is the school here?
Yes.
275
00:14:19,420 --> 00:14:20,580
These buildings?
Yes.
276
00:14:21,540 --> 00:14:24,540
This is the area
where Munyaburanga live.
277
00:14:35,060 --> 00:14:38,980
We're on our way to meet a woman who
once attended Munyaburanga's school.
278
00:14:38,980 --> 00:14:42,340
Yeah, this is where
Golithi family live.
279
00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:47,140
Hello, Golithi.
280
00:14:47,140 --> 00:14:49,380
Sorry we are late
to keep you waiting. I apologise.
281
00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:49,620
Sorry we are late
It's nice to see you. How are you?
282
00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:51,060
It's nice to see you. How are you?
283
00:14:51,060 --> 00:14:52,340
Hi.
You look very well.
284
00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:53,700
Hug.
Yeah.
285
00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:53,940
Hug.
(BOTH SPEAK IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
286
00:14:53,940 --> 00:14:55,020
(BOTH SPEAK IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
287
00:14:55,020 --> 00:14:59,540
Marie Golithi Uwisenga was only 12
years old when the killing started.
288
00:14:59,540 --> 00:15:03,820
She says 14 members of her family
were murdered during the genocide.
289
00:15:03,820 --> 00:15:04,060
She says 14 members of her family
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
290
00:15:04,060 --> 00:15:05,940
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
291
00:15:05,940 --> 00:15:08,820
She's invited
her mother, her aunt and her cousin
292
00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:09,060
She's invited
to talk about the former headmaster.
293
00:15:09,060 --> 00:15:11,380
to talk about the former headmaster.
294
00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:15,700
(BOTH SPEAK IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
295
00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:18,940
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
296
00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:30,860
Golithi recognises many of the names
in many Munyaburanga's indictment.
297
00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:46,140
This is your father?
Yes.
298
00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:53,260
Golithi claims Munyaburanga
was in charge of the nearby roadblock
299
00:15:53,260 --> 00:15:53,500
Golithi claims Munyaburanga
and personally led attacks.
300
00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:55,140
and personally led attacks.
301
00:15:55,140 --> 00:15:55,380
This isn't something
and personally led attacks.
302
00:15:55,380 --> 00:15:58,340
This isn't something
that's mentioned in the indictment.
303
00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:01,460
Can you tell me
how Munyaburanga did this?
304
00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:04,940
How did he make these people
do what he wanted them to do?
305
00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:34,900
Golithi's cousin Chaliroti
306
00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:38,860
says she also witnessed
Munyaburanga giving orders.
307
00:17:06,020 --> 00:17:11,780
If you could speak
with Celestin Munyaburanga,
308
00:17:11,780 --> 00:17:12,020
If you could speak
what would you say to him?
309
00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:13,420
what would you say to him?
310
00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:20,700
If Munyaburanga
was brought back to Rwanda
311
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:20,940
If Munyaburanga
and went before a court,
312
00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:22,420
and went before a court,
313
00:17:22,420 --> 00:17:24,900
would you be prepared
to give evidence against him?
314
00:17:25,820 --> 00:17:26,940
Yes.
315
00:17:32,580 --> 00:17:37,860
(BIRDSONG)
316
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:46,300
I want to meet one of the
perpetrators named in the indictment,
317
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:50,060
a man who was involved
in the killing of Golithi's family.
318
00:18:01,420 --> 00:18:05,980
Manasse Musabyimana says he didn't
see his former headmaster kill anyone
319
00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:09,300
but it was Munyaburanga who
recruited him to man the roadblock
320
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:09,540
but it was Munyaburanga who
where most of the killing took place.
321
00:18:09,540 --> 00:18:12,300
where most of the killing took place.
322
00:18:15,020 --> 00:18:17,260
OK. We sit here?
Yeah.
323
00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:18,860
OK.
324
00:18:22,420 --> 00:18:27,060
This is a document sent
to the Australian government.
325
00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:27,300
This is a document sent
Mm.
326
00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:28,100
Mm.
327
00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:30,100
And they say your name here.
328
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:30,900
Mm.
329
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:32,100
Manasse.
Yes.
330
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:37,900
And they say that you, with Celestin
and other Interahamwe...
331
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:38,660
Mm.
332
00:18:38,660 --> 00:18:40,540
..looked for Tutsis.
There...
333
00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:43,100
Do you remember these people?
Yeah. Of course.
334
00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:45,060
What do you know about these people?
335
00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:51,060
This is Golithi's family?
336
00:19:06,540 --> 00:19:08,780
And you participated
in killing these people?
337
00:19:16,020 --> 00:19:19,580
Did you personally kill
any of these people?
338
00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:28,260
Manasse says he spent 20 years in
prison after being tried in Gacaca.
339
00:19:37,220 --> 00:19:39,460
Thank you, sir.
Murakoze.
340
00:19:39,460 --> 00:19:39,700
Murakoze. Murakoze.
Murakoze.
341
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:40,740
Murakoze. Murakoze.
342
00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:42,620
Murakoze.
Murakoze.
343
00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:45,700
Thank you so much.
344
00:19:56,540 --> 00:19:59,700
Munyaburanga
isn't the only wanted man
345
00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:01,980
we've come here to investigate.
346
00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:05,500
Rwanda is seeking another
alleged perpetrator in Australia.
347
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:10,780
And it's someone Michee has already
reported on for a local news outlet.
348
00:20:10,780 --> 00:20:11,020
And it's someone Michee has already
How did you first find out
349
00:20:11,020 --> 00:20:12,740
How did you first find out
350
00:20:12,740 --> 00:20:12,980
there was an alleged genocidaire
How did you first find out
351
00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:15,340
there was an alleged genocidaire
living in Australia?
352
00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:15,620
There's someone, uh...
living in Australia,
there was an alleged genocidaire
living in Australia?
353
00:20:15,620 --> 00:20:19,540
There's someone, uh...
living in Australia,
354
00:20:19,540 --> 00:20:19,780
There's someone, uh...
one community in Australia...
355
00:20:19,780 --> 00:20:21,180
one community in Australia...
356
00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:21,380
one community in Australia...
Back in 2020
357
00:20:21,380 --> 00:20:22,660
Back in 2020
358
00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:26,780
Michee says he got a tip-off about
a man called Frodouard Rukeshangabo.
359
00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:27,020
Michee says he got a tip-off about
Look - this is my story. Look.
360
00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:29,420
Look - this is my story. Look.
361
00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:29,660
This is the photo of him
before genocide.
Look - this is my story. Look.
362
00:20:29,660 --> 00:20:31,980
This is the photo of him
before genocide.
363
00:20:31,980 --> 00:20:34,300
Mm.
And this the recent one.
364
00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:39,180
We've obtained even more recent
pictures of Frodouard Rukeshangabo
365
00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:39,420
We've obtained even more recent
in Australia.
366
00:20:39,420 --> 00:20:40,700
in Australia.
367
00:20:45,780 --> 00:20:49,380
Michee learned that he used to be
a district school inspector -
368
00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:51,620
another educated and respected man
369
00:20:51,620 --> 00:20:55,260
who's now accused of being involved
in several murders in his community
370
00:20:55,260 --> 00:20:58,460
during the very first days
of the genocide.
371
00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:03,580
In Brisbane
he's now a driving instructor.
372
00:21:03,580 --> 00:21:08,300
We know he emigrated to Australia
on a humanitarian visa in 2009
373
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:12,660
and that he's well-known within
Queensland's small Rwandan community.
374
00:21:18,580 --> 00:21:20,060
Like Munyaburanga,
375
00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:23,180
we've been told Rukeshangabo
was convicted in absentia
376
00:21:23,180 --> 00:21:24,820
by a Gacaca court.
377
00:21:25,780 --> 00:21:30,180
We want to find out what evidence
emerged during his trial.
378
00:21:32,620 --> 00:21:35,980
Reverien Iryaruranga
was one of the five lay judges
379
00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:39,460
known as 'inyangamugayo',
or 'persons of integrity',
380
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:44,060
who would decide whether Rukeshangabo
was innocent or guilty.
381
00:21:44,060 --> 00:21:46,420
He says he oversaw
hundreds of trials.
382
00:21:46,420 --> 00:21:50,460
We want to know what he remembers
about Rukeshangabo's.
383
00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:58,460
So, this is testimony
from survivors or perpetrators
384
00:21:58,460 --> 00:21:59,740
or who is giving this testimony?
385
00:22:04,340 --> 00:22:06,580
These are the original
handwritten notes
386
00:22:06,580 --> 00:22:08,500
he took as witnesses testified,
387
00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:10,900
some of them more than 20 years ago.
388
00:22:14,820 --> 00:22:16,180
But the notes are incomplete,
389
00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:16,420
and Reverien sometimes relies
But the notes are incomplete,
390
00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:20,460
and Reverien sometimes relies
on his memories of the trial.
391
00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:20,700
and Reverien sometimes relies
The former lay judge
392
00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:21,940
The former lay judge
393
00:22:21,940 --> 00:22:26,380
says Rukeshangabo was accused of
six murders during his Gacaca trial.
394
00:22:26,380 --> 00:22:29,180
He heard testimony accusing
the former school inspector
395
00:22:29,180 --> 00:22:29,420
He heard testimony accusing
of leading attacks.
396
00:22:29,420 --> 00:22:31,180
of leading attacks.
397
00:22:37,060 --> 00:22:39,860
Did people see him give orders?
398
00:22:45,940 --> 00:22:49,660
How many witnesses gave evidence
against Rukeshangabo?
399
00:22:58,540 --> 00:23:02,340
Did anybody speak
in Rukeshangabo's defence?
400
00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:08,540
Experts say that's not uncommon
for in-absentia cases.
401
00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:15,420
We've tracked down
one of the perpetrators
402
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:15,660
We've tracked down
who testified against Rukeshangabo.
403
00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:17,980
who testified against Rukeshangabo.
404
00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:23,180
(BOTH SPEAK IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
405
00:23:23,180 --> 00:23:25,780
I'm pleased to meet you.
How are you?
406
00:23:26,980 --> 00:23:29,700
Alphonse Hategekimana
was convicted over a murder
407
00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:32,580
he says happened
on Rukeshangabo's orders
408
00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:34,820
and sentenced
to seven years in prison.
409
00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:35,940
Thank you.
410
00:23:37,060 --> 00:23:38,820
Was it important for you
411
00:23:38,820 --> 00:23:42,820
that you took responsibility
and accepted what you had done?
412
00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:57,900
Alphonse claims that, after
the Hutu president was assassinated,
413
00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:02,460
Rukeshangabo targeted men he accused
of spying for the Tutsi rebels.
414
00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:04,300
Two days later
415
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:06,980
Alphonse alleges
Rukeshangabo led a mob
416
00:24:06,980 --> 00:24:10,220
that caught a father and son,
Deo and Gilbert,
417
00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:10,460
that caught a father and son,
and beat them to death.
418
00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:11,740
and beat them to death.
419
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:49,220
When you beat Bizimungu
420
00:24:49,220 --> 00:24:52,340
you hit him with your fists
or with a stick?
421
00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:53,500
How did you beat him?
422
00:25:26,780 --> 00:25:31,100
He claims other men in the mob
continued to beat Bizimungu.
423
00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:40,780
(RAIN THRUMS)
424
00:26:17,780 --> 00:26:21,540
Yoweri Gatarayiha
was Bizimungu's older brother.
425
00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:23,340
He didn't witness the killing.
426
00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:36,180
How many members of your family
died in the genocide?
427
00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:54,220
Can I show you these photographs
and can I ask you...
428
00:26:54,220 --> 00:26:54,460
Can I show you these photographs
..do you know who this man is?
429
00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:56,060
..do you know who this man is?
430
00:27:23,580 --> 00:27:25,260
After months of negotiation
431
00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:26,980
we've finally been granted access
432
00:27:26,980 --> 00:27:31,860
to the official court records
from Rukeshangabo's trial in 2007.
433
00:27:36,060 --> 00:27:37,860
The Gacaca archive is kept
434
00:27:37,860 --> 00:27:40,660
in the Ministry of National Unity
and Civic Engagement
435
00:27:40,660 --> 00:27:42,900
in the capital, Kigali.
436
00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:49,900
So, this is one of eight rooms,
437
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:50,140
I have told you that we have
more than eight rooms of archives.
So, this is one of eight rooms,
438
00:27:50,140 --> 00:27:54,140
I have told you that we have
more than eight rooms of archives.
439
00:27:54,140 --> 00:27:58,620
So, this...we have nine districts
in this room, including Ngoma.
440
00:28:00,780 --> 00:28:03,260
So, we are looking
for Rukeshangabo case,
441
00:28:03,260 --> 00:28:05,820
which is around here.
442
00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:07,300
Yeah. This is the box.
443
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:08,740
This one?
Yes.
444
00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:11,660
Rukeshangabo's file is in here?
Exactly. File's here.
445
00:28:11,660 --> 00:28:13,980
OK. We can take it down?
We can take it down.
446
00:28:13,980 --> 00:28:15,860
It's very heavy.
OK. OK.
447
00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:18,940
And then you go up there.
Ooh, yeah. Very heavy.
448
00:28:18,940 --> 00:28:19,940
OK.
449
00:28:25,460 --> 00:28:27,700
Alright, so, the case
could be in any of these files?
450
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:29,220
In any of these books. Yes.
451
00:28:29,220 --> 00:28:31,220
We have to go through all the books.
452
00:28:31,220 --> 00:28:34,060
So, we search.
You search, you read.
453
00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:38,020
You'll be looking for the name
Rukeshangabo, Frodouard, yes.
454
00:28:39,540 --> 00:28:41,980
It's not easy.
It's not easy.
455
00:28:41,980 --> 00:28:44,980
I can see
why this would take a long time.
456
00:28:57,860 --> 00:29:00,260
I feel like the yellow ones
were early.
457
00:29:04,020 --> 00:29:07,180
Where are you? Where are you?
458
00:29:14,140 --> 00:29:17,620
You get a very strong sense
of the history...
459
00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:17,860
You get a very strong sense
..of a first draft of history
460
00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:20,060
..of a first draft of history
461
00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:21,780
reading through these books.
462
00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:24,820
And somewhere in these pages,
463
00:29:24,820 --> 00:29:26,620
somewhere in this box,
464
00:29:26,620 --> 00:29:28,420
is the record
of the alleged activities
465
00:29:28,420 --> 00:29:32,020
of a man
who now lives in suburban Brisbane.
466
00:29:36,980 --> 00:29:39,820
We are going well. We have found...
467
00:29:39,820 --> 00:29:41,300
You remember...
(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY)
468
00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:44,980
..was the one...
Yeah. Yeah. We just haven't found...
469
00:29:44,980 --> 00:29:47,220
Rukeshangabo.
Oh, we find it!
470
00:29:47,220 --> 00:29:49,020
Here he is.
471
00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:51,860
Rukeshangabo, Frodouard -
born in 1956.
472
00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:54,820
Oh, we find it!
Here it is.
473
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:58,100
Extraordinary.
474
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,500
Vincent, we have found him.
475
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:02,740
I'd been warned
not to expect anything
476
00:30:02,740 --> 00:30:05,780
that reads like
an Australian court transcript.
477
00:30:05,780 --> 00:30:07,780
It's not always
a complete record of a trial
478
00:30:07,780 --> 00:30:10,620
and the evidence often emerges
over several years
479
00:30:10,620 --> 00:30:10,860
and the evidence often emerges
and across different trials.
480
00:30:10,860 --> 00:30:12,140
and across different trials.
481
00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:12,380
This is a witness
and across different trials.
482
00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:14,660
This is a witness
giving their statement?
483
00:30:14,660 --> 00:30:14,900
This is a witness
Yes, they give the statement...
484
00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:16,580
Yes, they give the statement...
485
00:30:16,580 --> 00:30:19,260
In the two pages
we find about Rukeshangabo
486
00:30:19,260 --> 00:30:22,460
I don't see any mention
of Alphonse or Bizimungu,
487
00:30:22,460 --> 00:30:25,580
the man he says
Rukeshangabo ordered him to attack.
488
00:30:25,580 --> 00:30:28,580
But many of the names
we've been told about ARE here,
489
00:30:28,580 --> 00:30:28,820
But many of the names
including Deo and Gilbert,
490
00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:30,460
including Deo and Gilbert,
491
00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:30,700
the father and son
including Deo and Gilbert,
492
00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:34,220
the father and son
allegedly killed before Bizimungu.
493
00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:36,900
That is Reverien,
the one who talk to us.
494
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:37,140
That is Reverien,
Ah, here's Reverien.
495
00:30:37,140 --> 00:30:38,820
Ah, here's Reverien.
496
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:42,180
We can't find any reference
497
00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:45,820
to Rukeshangabo leading the genocide
in his community,
498
00:30:45,820 --> 00:30:49,500
but at least 10 alleged victims
are listed here,
499
00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:52,140
several more
than the former lay judge mentioned.
500
00:30:54,140 --> 00:30:56,620
We're still looking for the verdict.
501
00:30:57,540 --> 00:30:59,060
Here we go.
502
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:02,740
I got it.
You got it?
503
00:31:02,740 --> 00:31:05,020
Yes. Got the judgement.
Well found.
504
00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:05,260
Yes. Got the judgement.
What does the judgement say?
505
00:31:05,260 --> 00:31:06,740
What does the judgement say?
506
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:08,020
Yes.
507
00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:09,980
They say that after the seating,
508
00:31:09,980 --> 00:31:11,700
after the bench seating,
509
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:13,980
they found that Rukeshangabo
was guilty
510
00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:16,380
and they have sentenced him, uh...
511
00:31:16,380 --> 00:31:18,580
..30 years of imprisonment.
512
00:31:18,580 --> 00:31:20,820
30 years.
Yeah, we are done.
513
00:31:25,300 --> 00:31:27,340
In November 2007
514
00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:31,900
Frodouard Rukeshangabo was
found guilty in the Gacaca Court of:
515
00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:41,580
The conviction does not record which
deaths he was held responsible for.
516
00:31:43,220 --> 00:31:47,060
Rwandan prosecutors say that anyone
already convicted in Gacaca
517
00:31:47,060 --> 00:31:50,380
will be entitled to a fresh trial
if they're extradited.
518
00:32:03,380 --> 00:32:06,020
Rwanda's National
Public Prosecution Authority
519
00:32:06,020 --> 00:32:09,460
says it has pursued
more than 1,100 genocide suspects
520
00:32:09,460 --> 00:32:11,020
across 33 countries.
521
00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:15,300
What have they done about the
two Rwandans we're investigating?
522
00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:18,740
Yes, hello?
Mr Siboyintore.
523
00:32:18,740 --> 00:32:21,260
Thanks so much for making the time to
meet with me today. Much appreciated.
524
00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:23,460
Welcome. Welcome.
Thank you very much.
525
00:32:23,460 --> 00:32:25,020
Prosecutor John Bosco Siboyintore
526
00:32:25,020 --> 00:32:27,740
has led Rwanda's
Genocide Fugitive Tracking Unit
527
00:32:27,740 --> 00:32:27,980
has led Rwanda's
for more than a decade.
528
00:32:27,980 --> 00:32:29,500
for more than a decade.
529
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:32,020
I asked him
about Celestin Munyaburanga,
530
00:32:32,020 --> 00:32:34,500
whose indictment
for at least 21 alleged murders
531
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:34,740
whose indictment
was sent to Australia in 2017.
532
00:32:34,740 --> 00:32:38,380
was sent to Australia in 2017.
533
00:32:38,380 --> 00:32:38,620
We invite the Australian police,
together with the prosecution,
was sent to Australia in 2017.
534
00:32:38,620 --> 00:32:44,220
We invite the Australian police,
together with the prosecution,
535
00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:45,460
to come to Rwanda
536
00:32:45,460 --> 00:32:45,700
to come to Rwanda
because it's where
the crime scene is located,
537
00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:48,900
because it's where
the crime scene is located,
538
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:49,140
because it's where
it's where witnesses will be found.
539
00:32:49,140 --> 00:32:51,980
it's where witnesses will be found.
540
00:32:51,980 --> 00:32:56,500
This is an issue
of an international nature.
541
00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:57,740
This is genocide.
542
00:32:57,740 --> 00:33:01,380
What ultimately happened
in his Gacaca court trial?
543
00:33:01,380 --> 00:33:04,780
So, his case was tried
in his absence.
544
00:33:04,780 --> 00:33:07,100
And the...
545
00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:09,900
..uh...he was actually..
546
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:15,580
On 13 May 2008
547
00:33:15,580 --> 00:33:19,180
he was convicted
to life imprisonment
548
00:33:19,180 --> 00:33:21,980
by the court of Busasamana.
549
00:33:21,980 --> 00:33:28,180
So, we have identified
another fugitive in Australia
550
00:33:28,180 --> 00:33:32,020
in the names
of Frodouard Rukeshangabo,
551
00:33:32,020 --> 00:33:33,700
and we did...
552
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:35,660
..we did our thorough
investigations,
553
00:33:35,660 --> 00:33:38,540
we came up with a decision
of indicting him.
554
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:44,100
Four Corners has confirmed
that an indictment for Rukeshangabo
555
00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:47,260
was received by the Australian
government in January.
556
00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:48,860
We haven't seen it.
557
00:33:50,660 --> 00:33:54,980
We will leave no stone unturned
until justice is done.
558
00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:03,420
When a country is not prosecuting
a genocide case...
559
00:34:04,380 --> 00:34:07,820
..when it has been asked to do so,
560
00:34:07,820 --> 00:34:08,060
it should know that it is giving
..when it has been asked to do so,
561
00:34:08,060 --> 00:34:12,140
it should know that it is giving
safe haven to other perpetrators
562
00:34:12,140 --> 00:34:12,380
it should know that it is giving
to come and enjoy that safe haven.
563
00:34:12,380 --> 00:34:15,580
to come and enjoy that safe haven.
564
00:34:15,580 --> 00:34:22,260
It beats every sensible person's
understanding.
565
00:34:22,260 --> 00:34:22,500
It beats every sensible person's
And they need to face the law.
566
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:24,860
And they need to face the law.
567
00:34:28,220 --> 00:34:30,420
But President Kagame has been accused
568
00:34:30,420 --> 00:34:32,860
of using the search
for genocide suspects
569
00:34:32,860 --> 00:34:35,540
to attack
his political enemies abroad.
570
00:34:38,260 --> 00:34:41,540
We've learned of two Rwandan men
living in New Zealand,
571
00:34:41,540 --> 00:34:45,300
both significant political players
in the pre-genocide regime,
572
00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:47,700
who've been accused of crimes
by Rwandan prosecutors.
573
00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:49,780
But, according to documents
we've seen,
574
00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:52,340
when authorities
in New Zealand investigated,
575
00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:54,380
they found
there was no case to answer.
576
00:35:06,140 --> 00:35:07,700
Before I head back to find out
577
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:10,460
what the Australian government knows
about these cases,
578
00:35:10,460 --> 00:35:13,820
there are a couple of people
I want to meet here in London.
579
00:35:16,220 --> 00:35:20,100
Has the Rwandan government
politicised, even weaponised
580
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:21,340
allegations of genocide
581
00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:23,500
to pursue political enemies?
582
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:23,740
The fact that we've also seen
Rwandan government assassinations
to pursue political enemies?
583
00:35:23,740 --> 00:35:27,780
The fact that we've also seen
Rwandan government assassinations
584
00:35:27,780 --> 00:35:28,020
The fact that we've also seen
of political opponents abroad,
585
00:35:28,020 --> 00:35:29,980
of political opponents abroad,
586
00:35:29,980 --> 00:35:32,820
the sometimes violent infiltration
587
00:35:32,820 --> 00:35:33,020
the sometimes violent infiltration
of diaspora communities,
588
00:35:33,020 --> 00:35:34,980
of diaspora communities,
589
00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:41,100
that activity alongside
the pursuit of genocide fugitives
590
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:45,380
I think raises all sorts of concerns
about the justice process.
591
00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:48,300
And, actually, I tend to think that
the justice process is quite robust.
592
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:50,420
I think the Genocide Fugitive
Tracking Unit
593
00:35:50,420 --> 00:35:50,660
I think the Genocide Fugitive
tends to act more often than not
594
00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:52,540
tends to act more often than not
595
00:35:52,540 --> 00:35:52,780
when it has pretty robust
tends to act more often than not
596
00:35:52,780 --> 00:35:55,460
when it has pretty robust
evidentiary reasons
597
00:35:55,460 --> 00:35:55,700
when it has pretty robust
to pursue certain suspects.
598
00:35:55,700 --> 00:35:57,420
to pursue certain suspects.
599
00:35:57,420 --> 00:36:01,380
Australian, Dr Phil Clark, is
a professor of international politics
600
00:36:01,380 --> 00:36:04,020
and has spent two decades
studying the Gacaca courts.
601
00:36:04,020 --> 00:36:08,180
His wife, Dr Nicola Palmer,
teaches international criminal law
602
00:36:08,180 --> 00:36:11,380
and tracks the Rwandan government's
pursuit of genocide suspects
603
00:36:11,380 --> 00:36:11,620
and tracks the Rwandan government's
around the globe.
604
00:36:11,620 --> 00:36:12,860
around the globe.
605
00:36:12,860 --> 00:36:13,100
How robust are these trials
around the globe.
606
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:16,700
How robust are these trials
from a legal point of view?
607
00:36:17,780 --> 00:36:20,300
I think the information
that they provide
608
00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:23,340
is as robust as any other testimony.
609
00:36:23,340 --> 00:36:23,580
is as robust as any other testimony.
If you spoke in Gacaca,
you spoke under your own name,
610
00:36:23,580 --> 00:36:26,300
If you spoke in Gacaca,
you spoke under your own name,
611
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:26,540
If you spoke in Gacaca,
you were immediately recognised,
612
00:36:26,540 --> 00:36:28,300
you were immediately recognised,
613
00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:28,540
and, so, you really had to be able
you were immediately recognised,
614
00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:31,860
and, so, you really had to be able
to defend what it was that you said.
615
00:36:31,860 --> 00:36:32,100
and, so, you really had to be able
(SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
616
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:34,020
(SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
617
00:36:34,020 --> 00:36:36,500
But critics,
including Human Rights Watch,
618
00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:40,780
have argued that a fair trial
wasn't guaranteed at Gacaca.
619
00:36:40,780 --> 00:36:43,820
They focused on the lack of legal
representation for the accused,
620
00:36:43,820 --> 00:36:48,380
the potential for corruption
and the use of hearsay evidence.
621
00:36:50,260 --> 00:36:52,060
I think
one of the interesting things here
622
00:36:52,060 --> 00:36:55,900
is that international lawyers and
international human rights groups
623
00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:56,140
is that international lawyers and
hated Gacaca at the outset,
624
00:36:56,140 --> 00:36:58,380
hated Gacaca at the outset,
625
00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:01,740
and yet almost
every international trial
626
00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:04,260
that relates
to Rwandan genocide cases
627
00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:06,660
has ended up using Gacaca evidence.
628
00:37:06,660 --> 00:37:09,420
This was a system
that tested evidence
629
00:37:09,420 --> 00:37:11,740
that led to a 30% acquittal rate,
630
00:37:11,740 --> 00:37:16,060
uh...that was in some ways
often heavily skewed
631
00:37:16,060 --> 00:37:16,300
uh...that was in some ways
towards the genocide suspect
632
00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:18,540
towards the genocide suspect
633
00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:22,020
because most of the judges
in question were Hutu.
634
00:37:22,020 --> 00:37:22,260
because most of the judges
Even in those in-absentia cases,
635
00:37:22,260 --> 00:37:24,700
Even in those in-absentia cases,
636
00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:28,420
it didn't guarantee that these
individuals would be found guilty.
637
00:37:28,420 --> 00:37:28,660
it didn't guarantee that these
In fact, we have plenty of evidence
638
00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:29,900
In fact, we have plenty of evidence
639
00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:30,140
to suggest it was possible to defend
In fact, we have plenty of evidence
640
00:37:30,140 --> 00:37:33,660
to suggest it was possible to defend
yourself even from a distance.
641
00:37:33,660 --> 00:37:38,340
Australia has received one indictment
from the Rwandan government.
642
00:37:38,340 --> 00:37:38,580
Australia has received one indictment
It may receive more in the future.
643
00:37:38,580 --> 00:37:40,140
It may receive more in the future.
644
00:37:40,140 --> 00:37:40,380
How should Australia,
It may receive more in the future.
645
00:37:40,380 --> 00:37:42,660
How should Australia,
how should countries like Australia,
646
00:37:42,660 --> 00:37:42,900
How should Australia,
respond to those indictments?
647
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:44,420
respond to those indictments?
648
00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:50,580
My own sense is that extradition
is the best response in these cases
649
00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:53,980
if there is sufficient
prima facie evidence
650
00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:57,140
to suggest
that a trial is necessary.
651
00:37:57,140 --> 00:38:00,620
But, if that is not possible
for all sorts of reasons,
652
00:38:00,620 --> 00:38:02,020
then I think it's the responsibility
653
00:38:02,020 --> 00:38:03,980
of those host countries,
like Australia,
654
00:38:03,980 --> 00:38:07,980
to find a way to deal with these
cases through their own courts.
655
00:38:07,980 --> 00:38:08,220
to find a way to deal with these
I think one has to be cautious,
656
00:38:08,220 --> 00:38:11,820
I think one has to be cautious,
657
00:38:11,820 --> 00:38:13,100
as we've said,
658
00:38:13,100 --> 00:38:16,140
around the evidence
659
00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:18,620
that is initially presented
in the indictment,
660
00:38:18,620 --> 00:38:23,220
but I do think it prompts
and warrants further investigation.
661
00:38:23,220 --> 00:38:23,460
but I do think it prompts
(SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
662
00:38:23,460 --> 00:38:26,140
(SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE)
663
00:38:26,140 --> 00:38:28,380
If you were a poor peasant farmer
664
00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:30,900
accused of genocide crimes
on the Rwandan hills,
665
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:32,540
you got prosecuted through Gacaca.
666
00:38:32,540 --> 00:38:35,940
But there's been
a completely different process
667
00:38:35,940 --> 00:38:38,460
for those who were wealthy enough
to escape the country.
668
00:38:38,460 --> 00:38:41,580
Most of them
have avoided scrutiny completely.
669
00:38:41,580 --> 00:38:43,860
Many of these individuals
undoubtedly are innocent,
670
00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:45,380
but they should
have their day in court
671
00:38:45,380 --> 00:38:48,620
and they should have to answer
for the accusations against them,
672
00:38:48,620 --> 00:38:51,660
just as genocide suspects
who were caught inside Rwanda
673
00:38:51,660 --> 00:38:51,900
just as genocide suspects
had to do so in front of Gacaca.
674
00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:53,500
had to do so in front of Gacaca.
675
00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:07,660
(PHONE LINE RINGS)
676
00:39:07,660 --> 00:39:12,220
We first reached out to Rukeshangabo
back in November.
677
00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:14,580
(ON SPEAKERPHONE) Hello?!
678
00:39:14,580 --> 00:39:18,100
Uh... Good afternoon. Is that
Frodouard Rukeshangabo speaking?
679
00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:18,340
Uh... Good afternoon. Is that
This is Frodouard. How are you?
680
00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:19,980
This is Frodouard. How are you?
681
00:39:19,980 --> 00:39:20,220
Mr Rukeshangabo,
This is Frodouard. How are you?
682
00:39:20,220 --> 00:39:22,780
Mr Rukeshangabo,
my name is Ben Doherty...
683
00:39:22,780 --> 00:39:23,020
Mr Rukeshangabo,
The allegations have been around
684
00:39:23,020 --> 00:39:24,380
The allegations have been around
685
00:39:24,380 --> 00:39:27,420
since articles first appeared online
a few years ago,
686
00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:31,540
dismissed by some in the diaspora
as politically motivated.
687
00:39:31,540 --> 00:39:36,020
Australia's small Rwandan community
is deeply divided.
688
00:39:36,020 --> 00:39:38,700
What... What is your position
in this matter?
689
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:42,140
Uh... Mr Rukeshangabo, I don't
have a position in this matter.
690
00:39:42,140 --> 00:39:44,420
I'm making no judgements, um...
about this.
691
00:39:44,420 --> 00:39:47,060
But these are very serious matters,
um...
692
00:39:47,060 --> 00:39:50,140
..and I wanted to put those to you,
if that was possible.
693
00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:57,980
Mr Rukeshangabo, are you there?
694
00:39:59,380 --> 00:40:01,380
(PHONE LINE BEEPS)
695
00:40:01,380 --> 00:40:02,860
He's hung up.
696
00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:06,700
Last month,
after our visit to Rwanda,
697
00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:09,940
we sent him a detailed list
of the allegations against him
698
00:40:09,940 --> 00:40:11,940
and repeated our request
for an interview.
699
00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:15,620
He replied:
700
00:40:19,260 --> 00:40:23,140
In an earlier message he said:
701
00:40:35,180 --> 00:40:38,460
So, I've put together this timeline
on Rukeshangabo.
702
00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:40,060
We're not making any assumptions
about the truth
703
00:40:40,060 --> 00:40:40,300
We're not making any assumptions
of these allegations,
704
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:41,500
of these allegations,
705
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:44,580
but how did someone
accused of genocide in Rwanda
706
00:40:44,580 --> 00:40:46,820
manage to become
an Australian citizen?
707
00:40:46,820 --> 00:40:48,540
My colleague Dunja Karagic
708
00:40:48,540 --> 00:40:51,020
has been looking into
the effectiveness of our screening.
709
00:40:51,020 --> 00:40:54,620
OK, so, his conviction
happens in 2007.
710
00:40:54,620 --> 00:40:54,860
OK, so, his conviction
happens in 2007.
In 2009 he arrives in Australia.
711
00:40:54,860 --> 00:40:57,140
In 2009 he arrives in Australia.
712
00:40:57,140 --> 00:40:58,500
But, from what you've been told,
713
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:00,660
it's very likely
that Australian authorities
714
00:41:00,660 --> 00:41:02,900
just didn't have any information
about his conviction.
715
00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:07,620
But Rwandan prosecutors have shown us
a list, a Gacaca fugitives database,
716
00:41:07,620 --> 00:41:07,860
But Rwandan prosecutors have shown us
that has his name on it,
717
00:41:07,860 --> 00:41:09,100
that has his name on it,
718
00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:11,500
and that was accessible from 2012.
719
00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:13,900
That's two years
before he becomes a citizen.
720
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:14,140
That's two years
Yeah, so, in theory,
721
00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:15,060
Yeah, so, in theory,
722
00:41:15,060 --> 00:41:17,940
his name should have been
on the Central Movement Alert list,
723
00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:19,660
that list
used by immigration authorities
724
00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:19,900
that list
to flag people of suspicion
725
00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:21,180
to flag people of suspicion
726
00:41:21,180 --> 00:41:23,900
from entering the country
or from getting citizenship.
727
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:26,100
So, why wasn't he picked up
on that list then?
728
00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:28,140
I mean, we don't know for certain
if he was or he wasn't,
729
00:41:28,140 --> 00:41:30,660
but I've spoken
to several former immigration staff
730
00:41:30,660 --> 00:41:33,260
who've raised problems
with this list.
731
00:41:33,260 --> 00:41:36,380
And they're saying
people just slip through the net?
732
00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:36,620
And they're saying
Sometimes, yeah.
733
00:41:36,620 --> 00:41:38,340
Sometimes, yeah.
734
00:41:43,860 --> 00:41:45,340
The man I'm going to meet
735
00:41:45,340 --> 00:41:47,820
knows that, in the past,
suspected war criminals
736
00:41:47,820 --> 00:41:51,460
from conflicts such as the Balkans,
Sri Lanka and Cambodia
737
00:41:51,460 --> 00:41:53,300
have found sanctuary in Australia.
738
00:41:58,140 --> 00:42:00,060
Graham Blewitt
was the deputy prosecutor
739
00:42:00,060 --> 00:42:04,060
at the International Criminal
Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia,
740
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:07,140
but before that he ran
the Special Investigations Unit,
741
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:07,380
but before that he ran
established in 1987
742
00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:08,740
established in 1987
743
00:42:08,740 --> 00:42:11,500
to investigate the presence
of alleged Nazi war criminals
744
00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:12,780
in Australia.
745
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:15,580
The final chapter today
746
00:42:15,580 --> 00:42:18,620
in Australia's
war crime investigations.
747
00:42:18,620 --> 00:42:20,660
Conducted over seven years
748
00:42:20,660 --> 00:42:23,060
at a cost of $17 million,
749
00:42:23,060 --> 00:42:25,820
not one conviction was secured.
750
00:42:28,420 --> 00:42:30,740
Well, you've put seven years
of your life into this, Mr Blewitt.
751
00:42:30,740 --> 00:42:30,980
Well, you've put seven years
How do you feel tonight?
752
00:42:30,980 --> 00:42:32,620
How do you feel tonight?
753
00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:35,020
Well, it's been a long road,
754
00:42:35,020 --> 00:42:37,220
and I'm very...
755
00:42:37,220 --> 00:42:40,460
..disappointed that the cases
ended the way they did.
756
00:42:41,420 --> 00:42:42,900
Hello, Graham. Ben Doherty.
757
00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:44,540
G'day, Ben. Nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you too.
758
00:42:44,540 --> 00:42:46,300
Come in, please.
Thanks so much for the invitation.
759
00:42:48,340 --> 00:42:52,140
Australia has no permanent
investigations unit,
760
00:42:52,140 --> 00:42:52,380
and that's why these allegations
Australia has no permanent
investigations unit,
761
00:42:52,380 --> 00:42:56,060
and that's why these allegations
762
00:42:56,060 --> 00:42:56,300
that there are war criminals
and that's why these allegations
763
00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:58,540
that there are war criminals
living in Australia
764
00:42:58,540 --> 00:43:02,300
um...are not attended to.
765
00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:03,900
Graham points out
766
00:43:03,900 --> 00:43:07,460
that countries like the United
States, Canada and Great Britain
767
00:43:07,460 --> 00:43:09,860
do have permanent
war crimes investigations units.
768
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:14,060
And if allegations
arise within their country,
769
00:43:14,060 --> 00:43:14,300
And if allegations
then they, uh...
770
00:43:14,300 --> 00:43:16,540
then they, uh...
771
00:43:16,540 --> 00:43:19,020
..are able to investigate
and bring prosecutions.
772
00:43:19,020 --> 00:43:19,260
..are able to investigate
And these are happening.
773
00:43:19,260 --> 00:43:21,740
And these are happening.
774
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:24,620
You've seen these allegations
775
00:43:24,620 --> 00:43:27,900
made against two men
believed to be living in Australia.
776
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:29,420
What do you make of these two cases?
777
00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:31,220
Just looking at the material,
778
00:43:31,220 --> 00:43:33,780
the allegations
are certainly serious
779
00:43:33,780 --> 00:43:35,580
and I believe
the Australian government
780
00:43:35,580 --> 00:43:35,820
and I believe
should do something about it.
781
00:43:35,820 --> 00:43:37,060
should do something about it.
782
00:43:37,060 --> 00:43:41,220
We should be part of this team,
international team,
783
00:43:41,220 --> 00:43:41,460
We should be part of this team,
bringing war criminals to justice.
784
00:43:41,460 --> 00:43:43,700
bringing war criminals to justice.
785
00:43:46,660 --> 00:43:49,340
The Attorney-General
declined our interview request,
786
00:43:49,340 --> 00:43:49,580
The Attorney-General
but a spokesperson said:
787
00:43:49,580 --> 00:43:51,820
but a spokesperson said:
788
00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:04,020
And a spokesperson
for the Home Affairs Minister said:
789
00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:17,340
I'm still the same person in the
first bit of the film with no hair
790
00:44:17,340 --> 00:44:17,580
I'm still the same person in the
and now I just bought hair!
791
00:44:17,580 --> 00:44:19,100
and now I just bought hair!
792
00:44:20,380 --> 00:44:21,980
That's the way it works.
793
00:44:21,980 --> 00:44:24,180
You wake up in the morning,
you've got big hair.
794
00:44:30,020 --> 00:44:34,540
Frida Umuhoza understands how
important justice is to survivors.
795
00:44:36,180 --> 00:44:39,340
It's why she's been helping us
look into Celestin Munyaburanga,
796
00:44:39,340 --> 00:44:42,220
the alleged killer
from her hometown.
797
00:44:44,380 --> 00:44:48,220
(PHONE RINGS)
798
00:44:50,060 --> 00:44:51,220
Hello?
799
00:44:51,220 --> 00:44:51,460
Hello.
Hello?
800
00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:53,820
Hello.
Frida, it's Ben Doherty calling.
801
00:44:53,820 --> 00:44:54,060
Hello.
Oh, hi, Ben. How are you?
802
00:44:54,060 --> 00:44:55,540
Oh, hi, Ben. How are you?
803
00:44:55,540 --> 00:44:57,260
I'm well, thank you. Well, thank you.
804
00:44:57,260 --> 00:44:57,500
For months we've been searching for
I'm well, thank you. Well, thank you.
805
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:00,900
For months we've been searching for
traces of Munyaburanga in Australia.
806
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:03,420
But I'm afraid
we've reached a dead end.
807
00:45:03,420 --> 00:45:07,180
I think, you know
we identified a house in Queensland
808
00:45:07,180 --> 00:45:07,420
I think, you know
where his family lives.
809
00:45:07,420 --> 00:45:08,660
where his family lives.
810
00:45:08,660 --> 00:45:08,900
There's also a man
where his family lives.
811
00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:12,700
There's also a man
of about the right age
812
00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:14,180
who was seen at the house.
Yep.
813
00:45:14,180 --> 00:45:15,940
But we don't...
Yep.
814
00:45:15,940 --> 00:45:18,380
We don't know for sure.
We can't confirm that it's him.
815
00:45:18,380 --> 00:45:21,620
But we just don't know. And I'm
not sure we'll ever know for sure.
816
00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:25,580
It is disappointing, but at the
same time it's not surprising to me
817
00:45:25,580 --> 00:45:25,820
It is disappointing, but at the
because it's...it's, um...
818
00:45:25,820 --> 00:45:27,340
because it's...it's, um...
819
00:45:27,340 --> 00:45:27,580
..it's just even, like, my...
because it's...it's, um...
820
00:45:27,580 --> 00:45:30,460
..it's just even, like, my...
the guy who killed my father,
821
00:45:30,460 --> 00:45:32,620
I don't really know where he lives,
I really don't.
822
00:45:33,580 --> 00:45:35,540
Nobody knows where he is.
823
00:45:36,660 --> 00:45:40,180
It's 30 years since the genocide
against the Tutsi.
824
00:45:40,180 --> 00:45:44,740
It's still really important to you
that they are held to account?
825
00:45:44,740 --> 00:45:47,380
I think it doesn't matter
what age you are
826
00:45:47,380 --> 00:45:47,620
I think it doesn't matter
because there's a lot of survivors
827
00:45:47,620 --> 00:45:49,420
because there's a lot of survivors
828
00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:52,660
who are still living
with their scars and wounds.
829
00:45:54,540 --> 00:45:56,900
We're all connected,
we all of us are connected
830
00:45:56,900 --> 00:45:59,980
and what the other person felt
we have all felt.
831
00:46:02,540 --> 00:46:05,700
Genocide
is not a crime that grows out.
832
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:19,860
(THEME MUSIC PLAYS)
833
00:46:37,340 --> 00:46:38,860
Captions by Red Bee Media
834
00:46:38,860 --> 00:46:41,060
Copyright
Australian Broadcasting Corporation