1 00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:02,060 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 2 00:00:18,180 --> 00:00:20,700 BEN DOHERTY: Two men accused of participating 3 00:00:20,700 --> 00:00:23,700 in one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century 4 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:23,940 in one of the worst atrocities are believed to be in Australia. 5 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:26,340 are believed to be in Australia. 6 00:00:26,340 --> 00:00:26,580 Is that Frodouard Rukeshangabo are believed to be in Australia. 7 00:00:26,580 --> 00:00:29,180 Is that Frodouard Rukeshangabo speaking? 8 00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:30,940 (ON SPEAKERPHONE) This is Frodouard. How are you? 9 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:36,500 One of them is living in suburban Queensland. 10 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:39,300 The other is a ghost. 11 00:00:40,260 --> 00:00:43,580 It's better we leave it. It's better stop this conversation. 12 00:00:46,460 --> 00:00:48,700 More than half a million people were killed 13 00:00:48,700 --> 00:00:51,580 during the genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda. 14 00:00:53,300 --> 00:00:55,220 Do you know who this man is? 15 00:00:56,180 --> 00:01:00,460 30 years later, hundreds of alleged perpetrators are still at large. 16 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:08,900 Survivors want justice. 17 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:14,180 If you could speak with Celestin Munyaburanga, 18 00:01:14,180 --> 00:01:15,860 what would you say to him? 19 00:01:22,260 --> 00:01:25,220 Genocide is not a crime that grows over. 20 00:01:27,100 --> 00:01:29,340 The two men, believed to be in Australia, 21 00:01:29,340 --> 00:01:32,460 have been convicted in absentia by traditional courts... 22 00:01:32,460 --> 00:01:33,220 Yeah, very heavy. 23 00:01:33,220 --> 00:01:36,700 ..part of a truth and reconciliation process. 24 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:42,300 Now the Rwandan government wants them back to face justice in new trials. 25 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:44,220 PHIL CLARK: Extradition is the best response 26 00:01:44,220 --> 00:01:47,580 if there is sufficient prima facie evidence 27 00:01:47,580 --> 00:01:50,980 to suggest that a trial is necessary. 28 00:01:53,260 --> 00:01:57,540 Rwanda has sent indictments to Australia for both men. 29 00:01:57,540 --> 00:02:02,300 We invite the Australian police, together with the prosecution, 30 00:02:02,300 --> 00:02:02,540 We invite the Australian police, to come to Rwanda. 31 00:02:02,540 --> 00:02:03,820 to come to Rwanda. 32 00:02:04,780 --> 00:02:07,020 Is the Australian government doing enough 33 00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:09,580 to bring alleged perpetrators to justice? 34 00:02:09,580 --> 00:02:11,540 GRAHAM BLEWITT: It's just a lack of a political will 35 00:02:11,540 --> 00:02:12,740 to do something about it, 36 00:02:12,740 --> 00:02:14,900 and, frankly, that has to change. 37 00:02:15,860 --> 00:02:19,580 We go back to Rwanda in search of answers. 38 00:02:40,620 --> 00:02:43,380 Oh, hi. This is Frida Umuhoza. 39 00:02:43,380 --> 00:02:46,860 Frida Umuhoza is visiting a school in Melbourne 40 00:02:46,860 --> 00:02:49,340 to talk to teenagers about genocide. 41 00:02:52,420 --> 00:02:55,820 (HUBBUB) 42 00:02:55,820 --> 00:02:56,060 Oh, we've got to connect you (HUBBUB) 43 00:02:56,060 --> 00:02:58,300 Oh, we've got to connect you to the internet. 44 00:02:58,300 --> 00:03:00,260 At just 14 45 00:03:00,260 --> 00:03:02,020 she was the only member of her family 46 00:03:02,020 --> 00:03:02,260 to survive Rwanda's 1994 genocide she was the only member of her family 47 00:03:02,260 --> 00:03:06,700 to survive Rwanda's 1994 genocide against its Tutsi minority. 48 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:12,340 Can you please put your hands together and welcome Frida? 49 00:03:12,340 --> 00:03:15,140 (APPLAUSE) 50 00:03:19,340 --> 00:03:20,780 Good afternoon. 51 00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:26,460 Frida first learned the Tutsis were hated when she started school. 52 00:03:26,460 --> 00:03:29,860 Every three months, every time the beginning of the term, 53 00:03:29,860 --> 00:03:33,900 the principal of the school will come into every class 54 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:37,580 and count how many Tutsis and how many Hutus are in that class. 55 00:03:37,580 --> 00:03:37,820 and count how many Tutsis and And we were made fun of. 56 00:03:37,820 --> 00:03:39,060 And we were made fun of. 57 00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:41,780 We were called snakes. We were called cockroaches. 58 00:03:41,780 --> 00:03:45,020 So, really, we were less than human beings to them. 59 00:03:45,020 --> 00:03:49,420 (TRADITIONAL MUSIC PLAYS, CHATTER) 60 00:03:49,420 --> 00:03:51,620 Belgium, the former colonial power, 61 00:03:51,620 --> 00:03:54,620 favoured Rwanda's minority Tutsi ethnic group 62 00:03:54,620 --> 00:03:56,260 over the majority Hutus, 63 00:03:56,260 --> 00:04:00,380 and there'd been long-standing tension and violence between the two. 64 00:04:02,860 --> 00:04:05,820 ARCHIVE REPORTER: Rwandan officials say the plane was shot down. 65 00:04:08,420 --> 00:04:12,100 The assassination of Rwanda's Hutu president Juvenal Habyarimana 66 00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:12,340 The assassination of Rwanda's in April 1994 67 00:04:12,340 --> 00:04:13,980 in April 1994 68 00:04:13,980 --> 00:04:16,180 was the catalyst for genocide. 69 00:04:17,460 --> 00:04:20,860 Hutu militia and civilians murdered their Tutsi neighbours 70 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:23,140 as well as many moderate Hutus. 71 00:04:38,780 --> 00:04:42,060 Nothing and nowhere was sacred 72 00:04:42,060 --> 00:04:44,260 in this state-sponsored genocide. 73 00:04:48,460 --> 00:04:49,500 (EXHALES HEAVILY) 74 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:51,580 (GADGET BEEPS) OK. 75 00:04:51,580 --> 00:04:54,100 Four Corners was reporting on the massacres. 76 00:04:54,100 --> 00:04:54,340 It's very, very hard to... Four Corners was reporting on the massacres. 77 00:04:54,340 --> 00:04:56,380 It's very, very hard to... 78 00:04:56,380 --> 00:04:59,340 ..to comprehend what it's like to be here. 79 00:04:59,340 --> 00:05:01,220 It's... It's very, very hard 80 00:05:01,220 --> 00:05:01,420 It's... It's very, very hard to be here. 81 00:05:01,420 --> 00:05:02,900 to be here. 82 00:05:06,460 --> 00:05:09,860 You do not know what feeling you have 83 00:05:09,860 --> 00:05:13,020 knowing that few hours from now 84 00:05:13,020 --> 00:05:13,260 knowing that you're gonna die. 85 00:05:13,260 --> 00:05:14,540 you're gonna die. 86 00:05:15,780 --> 00:05:17,380 They finished killing our neighbours 87 00:05:17,380 --> 00:05:19,620 and then they got to us. 88 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:21,100 You could choose. 89 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:24,140 "Do you want to be killed with a machete, a club or a knife 90 00:05:24,140 --> 00:05:25,860 "or a big tree with nails?" 91 00:05:25,860 --> 00:05:28,820 And I picked a young man with a club 92 00:05:28,820 --> 00:05:31,700 and I said, "Please, don't use a machete on me." 93 00:05:32,660 --> 00:05:36,260 The one image that tormented me for years 94 00:05:36,260 --> 00:05:39,180 was my mother's head being chopped off. 95 00:05:41,580 --> 00:05:45,140 Once he hit me, I lost my consciousness. 96 00:05:45,140 --> 00:05:50,820 I didn't wake up until everybody had died and they are burying. 97 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:53,780 Long story short, 98 00:05:53,780 --> 00:05:56,740 I made it out on my own. 99 00:05:57,700 --> 00:06:00,460 So, ladies and gentlemen, that's my story. 100 00:06:00,460 --> 00:06:00,700 So, ladies and gentlemen, And God bless all of you. 101 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:02,260 And God bless all of you. 102 00:06:02,260 --> 00:06:07,660 (APPLAUSE) 103 00:06:14,660 --> 00:06:17,380 At least two-thirds of Rwanda's Tutsi population - 104 00:06:17,380 --> 00:06:17,620 At least two-thirds more than half a million people - 105 00:06:17,620 --> 00:06:19,500 more than half a million people - 106 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:22,620 were killed in just over 100 days. 107 00:06:24,380 --> 00:06:28,460 It only ended when a Tutsi rebel army took control of the country. 108 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:33,060 Survivors had to rebuild their lives 109 00:06:33,060 --> 00:06:35,540 knowing that some of the people who committed these crimes 110 00:06:35,540 --> 00:06:36,980 escaped justice. 111 00:06:37,940 --> 00:06:42,460 Are these people...do they watch us? Do they know where we are? 112 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:46,180 So, a lot of people live with monsters 113 00:06:46,180 --> 00:06:48,740 in their...in their lives, in their sleep, 114 00:06:48,740 --> 00:06:50,140 in their everyday life. 115 00:06:53,220 --> 00:06:57,020 After the genocide ended in July 1994, 116 00:06:57,020 --> 00:06:58,900 up to two million people fled Rwanda, 117 00:06:58,900 --> 00:07:01,980 including an unknown number of the killers. 118 00:07:04,580 --> 00:07:09,100 I've been told that two alleged perpetrators are here in Australia. 119 00:07:15,860 --> 00:07:18,700 You say you don't drink any...no milk, nothing? 120 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:18,940 You say you don't drink No milk, no... 121 00:07:18,940 --> 00:07:19,700 No milk, no... 122 00:07:19,700 --> 00:07:19,940 One came from the same district No milk, no... 123 00:07:19,940 --> 00:07:22,540 One came from the same district in southern Rwanda as Frida, 124 00:07:22,540 --> 00:07:22,780 One came from the same district and I want to ask her about him. 125 00:07:22,780 --> 00:07:24,340 and I want to ask her about him. 126 00:07:24,340 --> 00:07:25,580 Thank you very much. 127 00:07:25,580 --> 00:07:25,820 Frida, we've obtained a copy Thank you very much. 128 00:07:25,820 --> 00:07:31,260 Frida, we've obtained a copy of this 2017 indictment. 129 00:07:31,260 --> 00:07:31,540 This was sent by the Rwandan government Frida, we've obtained a copy of this 2017 indictment. 130 00:07:31,540 --> 00:07:32,820 This was sent by the Rwandan government 131 00:07:32,820 --> 00:07:33,060 This was sent to the Australian government. 132 00:07:33,060 --> 00:07:34,300 to the Australian government. 133 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:36,940 It's an indictment and an international arrest warrant 134 00:07:36,940 --> 00:07:37,220 It's an indictment and an international arrest warrant for a man called Celestin Munyaburanga. 135 00:07:37,220 --> 00:07:39,100 for a man called Celestin Munyaburanga. 136 00:07:39,100 --> 00:07:39,340 for a man Yeah? 137 00:07:39,340 --> 00:07:40,100 Yeah? 138 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:43,020 Celestin Munyaburanga was from Nyanza. 139 00:07:43,020 --> 00:07:44,420 Yep. Which is the district... 140 00:07:44,420 --> 00:07:46,060 Where I come from. ..in Rwanda where you are from. 141 00:07:46,060 --> 00:07:46,300 Where I come from. Yeah. 142 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:47,060 Yeah. 143 00:07:47,060 --> 00:07:50,340 It says now that he's in Canberra. 144 00:07:50,340 --> 00:07:51,660 We can't find him. 145 00:07:51,660 --> 00:07:54,140 We're interested, if you could look at that document 146 00:07:54,140 --> 00:07:56,300 to see if anything in there is familiar 147 00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:58,340 and if anything you recognise. 148 00:08:02,220 --> 00:08:03,700 The indictment alleges 149 00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:03,940 that Munyaburanga set up a roadblock The indictment alleges 150 00:08:03,940 --> 00:08:06,220 that Munyaburanga set up a roadblock with soldiers 151 00:08:06,220 --> 00:08:06,460 that Munyaburanga set up a roadblock in a neighbourhood called Hanika, 152 00:08:06,460 --> 00:08:07,740 in a neighbourhood called Hanika, 153 00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:09,700 where at least 20 Tutsis were killed 154 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:09,940 with traditional weapons where at least 20 Tutsis were killed 155 00:08:09,940 --> 00:08:13,100 with traditional weapons like machetes and clubs. 156 00:08:16,660 --> 00:08:21,660 Yeah, I know Vanessa Rugero because they're extended family of mine. 157 00:08:21,660 --> 00:08:23,380 Yeah. That's a family member of yours? 158 00:08:23,380 --> 00:08:24,180 Yeah. 159 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:30,580 (QUIETLY) Yeah. 160 00:08:31,620 --> 00:08:33,860 I appreciate it's very difficult to read. I'm sorry. 161 00:08:33,860 --> 00:08:35,340 It is. 162 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:40,300 Frida didn't know Munyaburanga. 163 00:08:40,300 --> 00:08:42,780 He wasn't involved in the attack on her family. 164 00:08:42,780 --> 00:08:44,140 (PHONE LINE RINGS) 165 00:08:44,140 --> 00:08:44,380 But she knows many other survivors (PHONE LINE RINGS) 166 00:08:44,380 --> 00:08:47,820 But she knows many other survivors who come from Nyanza. 167 00:08:53,260 --> 00:08:56,460 She's speaking to a school friend's mum. 168 00:09:04,860 --> 00:09:08,420 She wasn't an eyewitness, but she's heard the allegations. 169 00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:15,260 Frida's told that Munyaburanga 170 00:09:15,260 --> 00:09:15,500 used to be the headmaster Frida's told that Munyaburanga 171 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:17,740 used to be the headmaster of a local school, 172 00:09:17,740 --> 00:09:19,340 and that he may have absconded 173 00:09:19,340 --> 00:09:22,100 while waiting for his trial in a community court, 174 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:25,260 which later sentenced him to life imprisonment. 175 00:09:26,180 --> 00:09:28,820 I want to learn more about the allegations, 176 00:09:28,820 --> 00:09:29,060 I want to learn more so, we're going to Rwanda. 177 00:09:29,060 --> 00:09:30,500 so, we're going to Rwanda. 178 00:09:41,980 --> 00:09:45,780 Pursuing justice for crimes committed by tens of thousands of people 179 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:46,020 Pursuing justice for crimes committed hasn't been straightforward. 180 00:09:46,020 --> 00:09:48,020 hasn't been straightforward. 181 00:09:49,900 --> 00:09:53,100 How do you plead to count one genocide? 182 00:09:59,020 --> 00:10:01,980 The major players were hunted down and prosecuted 183 00:10:01,980 --> 00:10:05,340 at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. 184 00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:09,300 It took two decades to convict 61 people. 185 00:10:13,860 --> 00:10:17,300 In Rwanda the justice system simply couldn't cope 186 00:10:17,300 --> 00:10:19,620 with tens of thousands of alleged perpetrators 187 00:10:19,620 --> 00:10:23,020 held for years without trial in overflowing jails. 188 00:10:26,460 --> 00:10:29,700 Over there are lavatories, perhaps two of them, 189 00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:31,500 and I'm told there's two more upstairs. 190 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:31,740 and I'm told There's for 8,000 people. 191 00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:33,140 There's for 8,000 people. 192 00:10:33,140 --> 00:10:33,380 There's for 8,000 people. It's the most extraordinary scene I've ever seen in my life, 193 00:10:33,380 --> 00:10:36,180 It's the most extraordinary scene I've ever seen in my life, 194 00:10:36,180 --> 00:10:38,460 and I hope I never see anything like it again. 195 00:10:40,700 --> 00:10:44,220 So, it adopted a radically different approach to justice 196 00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:47,620 based on its own system of traditional community courts. 197 00:10:47,620 --> 00:10:47,860 based on its own system (SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 198 00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:51,580 (SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 199 00:10:51,580 --> 00:10:56,100 They were known as 'Gacaca', or 'grass courts', 200 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:58,980 and they emphasised forgiveness and reconciliation 201 00:10:58,980 --> 00:10:59,220 and they emphasised as much as justice and punishment. 202 00:10:59,220 --> 00:11:02,140 as much as justice and punishment. 203 00:11:02,140 --> 00:11:03,820 There were no lawyers 204 00:11:03,820 --> 00:11:04,060 and anyone could speak up There were no lawyers 205 00:11:04,060 --> 00:11:07,060 and anyone could speak up for or against the accused, 206 00:11:07,060 --> 00:11:07,300 and anyone could speak up with frequent interruptions. 207 00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:09,780 with frequent interruptions. 208 00:11:17,740 --> 00:11:20,980 The verdict was decided by a panel of lay judges 209 00:11:20,980 --> 00:11:22,580 elected by their own communities. 210 00:11:22,580 --> 00:11:26,100 (SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 211 00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:29,140 By the time they concluded in 2012, 212 00:11:29,140 --> 00:11:31,100 more than 12,000 Gacaca courts 213 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:33,500 had tried over a million cases. 214 00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:36,180 Critics in the West 215 00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:36,420 argued it was Critics in the West 216 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:39,740 argued it was often rough and rushed justice. 217 00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:39,980 argued it was (ONLOOKERS EXCLAIM) 218 00:11:39,980 --> 00:11:41,420 (ONLOOKERS EXCLAIM) 219 00:11:45,220 --> 00:11:47,420 But Rwandan president, Paul Kagame, 220 00:11:47,420 --> 00:11:49,900 doesn't think much of foreign critics. 221 00:11:49,900 --> 00:11:52,420 They don't care about what happens to you, 222 00:11:52,420 --> 00:11:54,580 as they didn't care during the genocide. 223 00:11:54,580 --> 00:11:54,860 So, when someone starts to lecture you on the international as they didn't care during the genocide. 224 00:11:54,860 --> 00:11:57,660 So, when someone starts to lecture you on the international 225 00:11:57,660 --> 00:11:57,940 So, when someone starts to lecture you on the international standards of justice... I cannot... 226 00:11:57,940 --> 00:11:58,980 standards of justice... I cannot... 227 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:02,420 I cannot accept any lecture from any of these people. 228 00:12:04,460 --> 00:12:05,940 Rwanda's search for justice 229 00:12:05,940 --> 00:12:09,980 is complicated by its history and its president. 230 00:12:09,980 --> 00:12:13,260 We've been saying if the ceasefire doesn't have any meaning... 231 00:12:13,260 --> 00:12:17,460 In 1994 Paul Kagame was seen as Rwanda's saviour. 232 00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:21,500 He commanded the rebel Tutsi army that ended the genocide. 233 00:12:23,260 --> 00:12:27,540 Ever since, Rwanda has been a de facto one-party state 234 00:12:27,540 --> 00:12:29,780 ruled by the Rwandan Patriotic Front 235 00:12:29,780 --> 00:12:32,180 and its leader. 236 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:39,020 (CHEERING, MUSIC) 237 00:12:39,020 --> 00:12:42,700 He's been accused of imposing a so-called victor's justice... 238 00:12:42,700 --> 00:12:42,940 He's been accused of imposing (CROWD CHANTS) 239 00:12:42,940 --> 00:12:44,580 (CROWD CHANTS) 240 00:12:44,580 --> 00:12:46,180 ..pursuing genocide suspects 241 00:12:46,180 --> 00:12:48,660 while consistently failing to prosecute crimes 242 00:12:48,660 --> 00:12:50,900 committed by his own army. 243 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:54,420 (CHEERING) 244 00:12:57,020 --> 00:12:59,380 Tens of thousands of Hutus were also killed 245 00:12:59,380 --> 00:13:02,380 by Kagame's troops in retaliatory attacks, 246 00:13:02,380 --> 00:13:05,860 such as the infamous Kibeho massacre in 1995, 247 00:13:05,860 --> 00:13:08,860 photographed by Australian artist George Gittoes. 248 00:13:17,620 --> 00:13:20,260 (CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK) 249 00:13:20,260 --> 00:13:20,500 Kagame's government (CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK) 250 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:22,260 Kagame's government has brought stability 251 00:13:22,260 --> 00:13:24,540 and significant economic development to Rwanda. 252 00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:24,780 and significant economic development (CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK) 253 00:13:24,780 --> 00:13:26,220 (CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK) 254 00:13:26,220 --> 00:13:30,620 Kagame, Paul. 255 00:13:30,620 --> 00:13:30,860 But elections are marred Kagame, Paul. 256 00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:34,180 But elections are marred by intimidation and fraud, 257 00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:34,420 But elections are marred journalists have been jailed... 258 00:13:34,420 --> 00:13:36,020 journalists have been jailed... 259 00:13:36,020 --> 00:13:39,860 Do you hold any hope that you will see your brothers alive? 260 00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:42,100 ..and dissidents say they're being pursued 261 00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:44,060 even on the other side of the world. 262 00:13:44,060 --> 00:13:47,340 Again, I don't think there's any hope to find them alive. 263 00:13:47,340 --> 00:13:47,580 Again, I don't think (BIRDS TWITTER) 264 00:13:47,580 --> 00:13:50,940 (BIRDS TWITTER) 265 00:13:50,940 --> 00:13:51,180 So, we're treating the allegations (BIRDS TWITTER) 266 00:13:51,180 --> 00:13:54,620 So, we're treating the allegations against both men in our investigation 267 00:13:54,620 --> 00:13:54,860 So, we're treating the allegations carefully. 268 00:13:54,860 --> 00:13:56,420 carefully. 269 00:14:01,180 --> 00:14:04,020 Local journalist Michee Urinzwenimana 270 00:14:04,020 --> 00:14:05,620 is helping with our investigation 271 00:14:05,620 --> 00:14:09,460 into the alleged perpetrators believed to be in Australia. 272 00:14:10,580 --> 00:14:13,900 So, this school is called Hanika. 273 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:17,260 It's the school where Munyaburanga was headmaster. 274 00:14:17,260 --> 00:14:19,420 This is the school here? Yes. 275 00:14:19,420 --> 00:14:20,580 These buildings? Yes. 276 00:14:21,540 --> 00:14:24,540 This is the area where Munyaburanga live. 277 00:14:35,060 --> 00:14:38,980 We're on our way to meet a woman who once attended Munyaburanga's school. 278 00:14:38,980 --> 00:14:42,340 Yeah, this is where Golithi family live. 279 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:47,140 Hello, Golithi. 280 00:14:47,140 --> 00:14:49,380 Sorry we are late to keep you waiting. I apologise. 281 00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:49,620 Sorry we are late It's nice to see you. How are you? 282 00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:51,060 It's nice to see you. How are you? 283 00:14:51,060 --> 00:14:52,340 Hi. You look very well. 284 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:53,700 Hug. Yeah. 285 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:53,940 Hug. (BOTH SPEAK IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 286 00:14:53,940 --> 00:14:55,020 (BOTH SPEAK IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 287 00:14:55,020 --> 00:14:59,540 Marie Golithi Uwisenga was only 12 years old when the killing started. 288 00:14:59,540 --> 00:15:03,820 She says 14 members of her family were murdered during the genocide. 289 00:15:03,820 --> 00:15:04,060 She says 14 members of her family (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 290 00:15:04,060 --> 00:15:05,940 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 291 00:15:05,940 --> 00:15:08,820 She's invited her mother, her aunt and her cousin 292 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:09,060 She's invited to talk about the former headmaster. 293 00:15:09,060 --> 00:15:11,380 to talk about the former headmaster. 294 00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:15,700 (BOTH SPEAK IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 295 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:18,940 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 296 00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:30,860 Golithi recognises many of the names in many Munyaburanga's indictment. 297 00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:46,140 This is your father? Yes. 298 00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:53,260 Golithi claims Munyaburanga was in charge of the nearby roadblock 299 00:15:53,260 --> 00:15:53,500 Golithi claims Munyaburanga and personally led attacks. 300 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:55,140 and personally led attacks. 301 00:15:55,140 --> 00:15:55,380 This isn't something and personally led attacks. 302 00:15:55,380 --> 00:15:58,340 This isn't something that's mentioned in the indictment. 303 00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:01,460 Can you tell me how Munyaburanga did this? 304 00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:04,940 How did he make these people do what he wanted them to do? 305 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:34,900 Golithi's cousin Chaliroti 306 00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:38,860 says she also witnessed Munyaburanga giving orders. 307 00:17:06,020 --> 00:17:11,780 If you could speak with Celestin Munyaburanga, 308 00:17:11,780 --> 00:17:12,020 If you could speak what would you say to him? 309 00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:13,420 what would you say to him? 310 00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:20,700 If Munyaburanga was brought back to Rwanda 311 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:20,940 If Munyaburanga and went before a court, 312 00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:22,420 and went before a court, 313 00:17:22,420 --> 00:17:24,900 would you be prepared to give evidence against him? 314 00:17:25,820 --> 00:17:26,940 Yes. 315 00:17:32,580 --> 00:17:37,860 (BIRDSONG) 316 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:46,300 I want to meet one of the perpetrators named in the indictment, 317 00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:50,060 a man who was involved in the killing of Golithi's family. 318 00:18:01,420 --> 00:18:05,980 Manasse Musabyimana says he didn't see his former headmaster kill anyone 319 00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:09,300 but it was Munyaburanga who recruited him to man the roadblock 320 00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:09,540 but it was Munyaburanga who where most of the killing took place. 321 00:18:09,540 --> 00:18:12,300 where most of the killing took place. 322 00:18:15,020 --> 00:18:17,260 OK. We sit here? Yeah. 323 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:18,860 OK. 324 00:18:22,420 --> 00:18:27,060 This is a document sent to the Australian government. 325 00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:27,300 This is a document sent Mm. 326 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:28,100 Mm. 327 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:30,100 And they say your name here. 328 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:30,900 Mm. 329 00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:32,100 Manasse. Yes. 330 00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:37,900 And they say that you, with Celestin and other Interahamwe... 331 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:38,660 Mm. 332 00:18:38,660 --> 00:18:40,540 ..looked for Tutsis. There... 333 00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:43,100 Do you remember these people? Yeah. Of course. 334 00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:45,060 What do you know about these people? 335 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:51,060 This is Golithi's family? 336 00:19:06,540 --> 00:19:08,780 And you participated in killing these people? 337 00:19:16,020 --> 00:19:19,580 Did you personally kill any of these people? 338 00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:28,260 Manasse says he spent 20 years in prison after being tried in Gacaca. 339 00:19:37,220 --> 00:19:39,460 Thank you, sir. Murakoze. 340 00:19:39,460 --> 00:19:39,700 Murakoze. Murakoze. Murakoze. 341 00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:40,740 Murakoze. Murakoze. 342 00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:42,620 Murakoze. Murakoze. 343 00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:45,700 Thank you so much. 344 00:19:56,540 --> 00:19:59,700 Munyaburanga isn't the only wanted man 345 00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:01,980 we've come here to investigate. 346 00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:05,500 Rwanda is seeking another alleged perpetrator in Australia. 347 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:10,780 And it's someone Michee has already reported on for a local news outlet. 348 00:20:10,780 --> 00:20:11,020 And it's someone Michee has already How did you first find out 349 00:20:11,020 --> 00:20:12,740 How did you first find out 350 00:20:12,740 --> 00:20:12,980 there was an alleged genocidaire How did you first find out 351 00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:15,340 there was an alleged genocidaire living in Australia? 352 00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:15,620 There's someone, uh... living in Australia, there was an alleged genocidaire living in Australia? 353 00:20:15,620 --> 00:20:19,540 There's someone, uh... living in Australia, 354 00:20:19,540 --> 00:20:19,780 There's someone, uh... one community in Australia... 355 00:20:19,780 --> 00:20:21,180 one community in Australia... 356 00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:21,380 one community in Australia... Back in 2020 357 00:20:21,380 --> 00:20:22,660 Back in 2020 358 00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:26,780 Michee says he got a tip-off about a man called Frodouard Rukeshangabo. 359 00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:27,020 Michee says he got a tip-off about Look - this is my story. Look. 360 00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:29,420 Look - this is my story. Look. 361 00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:29,660 This is the photo of him before genocide. Look - this is my story. Look. 362 00:20:29,660 --> 00:20:31,980 This is the photo of him before genocide. 363 00:20:31,980 --> 00:20:34,300 Mm. And this the recent one. 364 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:39,180 We've obtained even more recent pictures of Frodouard Rukeshangabo 365 00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:39,420 We've obtained even more recent in Australia. 366 00:20:39,420 --> 00:20:40,700 in Australia. 367 00:20:45,780 --> 00:20:49,380 Michee learned that he used to be a district school inspector - 368 00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:51,620 another educated and respected man 369 00:20:51,620 --> 00:20:55,260 who's now accused of being involved in several murders in his community 370 00:20:55,260 --> 00:20:58,460 during the very first days of the genocide. 371 00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:03,580 In Brisbane he's now a driving instructor. 372 00:21:03,580 --> 00:21:08,300 We know he emigrated to Australia on a humanitarian visa in 2009 373 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:12,660 and that he's well-known within Queensland's small Rwandan community. 374 00:21:18,580 --> 00:21:20,060 Like Munyaburanga, 375 00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:23,180 we've been told Rukeshangabo was convicted in absentia 376 00:21:23,180 --> 00:21:24,820 by a Gacaca court. 377 00:21:25,780 --> 00:21:30,180 We want to find out what evidence emerged during his trial. 378 00:21:32,620 --> 00:21:35,980 Reverien Iryaruranga was one of the five lay judges 379 00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:39,460 known as 'inyangamugayo', or 'persons of integrity', 380 00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:44,060 who would decide whether Rukeshangabo was innocent or guilty. 381 00:21:44,060 --> 00:21:46,420 He says he oversaw hundreds of trials. 382 00:21:46,420 --> 00:21:50,460 We want to know what he remembers about Rukeshangabo's. 383 00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:58,460 So, this is testimony from survivors or perpetrators 384 00:21:58,460 --> 00:21:59,740 or who is giving this testimony? 385 00:22:04,340 --> 00:22:06,580 These are the original handwritten notes 386 00:22:06,580 --> 00:22:08,500 he took as witnesses testified, 387 00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:10,900 some of them more than 20 years ago. 388 00:22:14,820 --> 00:22:16,180 But the notes are incomplete, 389 00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:16,420 and Reverien sometimes relies But the notes are incomplete, 390 00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:20,460 and Reverien sometimes relies on his memories of the trial. 391 00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:20,700 and Reverien sometimes relies The former lay judge 392 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:21,940 The former lay judge 393 00:22:21,940 --> 00:22:26,380 says Rukeshangabo was accused of six murders during his Gacaca trial. 394 00:22:26,380 --> 00:22:29,180 He heard testimony accusing the former school inspector 395 00:22:29,180 --> 00:22:29,420 He heard testimony accusing of leading attacks. 396 00:22:29,420 --> 00:22:31,180 of leading attacks. 397 00:22:37,060 --> 00:22:39,860 Did people see him give orders? 398 00:22:45,940 --> 00:22:49,660 How many witnesses gave evidence against Rukeshangabo? 399 00:22:58,540 --> 00:23:02,340 Did anybody speak in Rukeshangabo's defence? 400 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:08,540 Experts say that's not uncommon for in-absentia cases. 401 00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:15,420 We've tracked down one of the perpetrators 402 00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:15,660 We've tracked down who testified against Rukeshangabo. 403 00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:17,980 who testified against Rukeshangabo. 404 00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:23,180 (BOTH SPEAK IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 405 00:23:23,180 --> 00:23:25,780 I'm pleased to meet you. How are you? 406 00:23:26,980 --> 00:23:29,700 Alphonse Hategekimana was convicted over a murder 407 00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:32,580 he says happened on Rukeshangabo's orders 408 00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:34,820 and sentenced to seven years in prison. 409 00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:35,940 Thank you. 410 00:23:37,060 --> 00:23:38,820 Was it important for you 411 00:23:38,820 --> 00:23:42,820 that you took responsibility and accepted what you had done? 412 00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:57,900 Alphonse claims that, after the Hutu president was assassinated, 413 00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:02,460 Rukeshangabo targeted men he accused of spying for the Tutsi rebels. 414 00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:04,300 Two days later 415 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:06,980 Alphonse alleges Rukeshangabo led a mob 416 00:24:06,980 --> 00:24:10,220 that caught a father and son, Deo and Gilbert, 417 00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:10,460 that caught a father and son, and beat them to death. 418 00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:11,740 and beat them to death. 419 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:49,220 When you beat Bizimungu 420 00:24:49,220 --> 00:24:52,340 you hit him with your fists or with a stick? 421 00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:53,500 How did you beat him? 422 00:25:26,780 --> 00:25:31,100 He claims other men in the mob continued to beat Bizimungu. 423 00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:40,780 (RAIN THRUMS) 424 00:26:17,780 --> 00:26:21,540 Yoweri Gatarayiha was Bizimungu's older brother. 425 00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:23,340 He didn't witness the killing. 426 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:36,180 How many members of your family died in the genocide? 427 00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:54,220 Can I show you these photographs and can I ask you... 428 00:26:54,220 --> 00:26:54,460 Can I show you these photographs ..do you know who this man is? 429 00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:56,060 ..do you know who this man is? 430 00:27:23,580 --> 00:27:25,260 After months of negotiation 431 00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:26,980 we've finally been granted access 432 00:27:26,980 --> 00:27:31,860 to the official court records from Rukeshangabo's trial in 2007. 433 00:27:36,060 --> 00:27:37,860 The Gacaca archive is kept 434 00:27:37,860 --> 00:27:40,660 in the Ministry of National Unity and Civic Engagement 435 00:27:40,660 --> 00:27:42,900 in the capital, Kigali. 436 00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:49,900 So, this is one of eight rooms, 437 00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:50,140 I have told you that we have more than eight rooms of archives. So, this is one of eight rooms, 438 00:27:50,140 --> 00:27:54,140 I have told you that we have more than eight rooms of archives. 439 00:27:54,140 --> 00:27:58,620 So, this...we have nine districts in this room, including Ngoma. 440 00:28:00,780 --> 00:28:03,260 So, we are looking for Rukeshangabo case, 441 00:28:03,260 --> 00:28:05,820 which is around here. 442 00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:07,300 Yeah. This is the box. 443 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:08,740 This one? Yes. 444 00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:11,660 Rukeshangabo's file is in here? Exactly. File's here. 445 00:28:11,660 --> 00:28:13,980 OK. We can take it down? We can take it down. 446 00:28:13,980 --> 00:28:15,860 It's very heavy. OK. OK. 447 00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:18,940 And then you go up there. Ooh, yeah. Very heavy. 448 00:28:18,940 --> 00:28:19,940 OK. 449 00:28:25,460 --> 00:28:27,700 Alright, so, the case could be in any of these files? 450 00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:29,220 In any of these books. Yes. 451 00:28:29,220 --> 00:28:31,220 We have to go through all the books. 452 00:28:31,220 --> 00:28:34,060 So, we search. You search, you read. 453 00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:38,020 You'll be looking for the name Rukeshangabo, Frodouard, yes. 454 00:28:39,540 --> 00:28:41,980 It's not easy. It's not easy. 455 00:28:41,980 --> 00:28:44,980 I can see why this would take a long time. 456 00:28:57,860 --> 00:29:00,260 I feel like the yellow ones were early. 457 00:29:04,020 --> 00:29:07,180 Where are you? Where are you? 458 00:29:14,140 --> 00:29:17,620 You get a very strong sense of the history... 459 00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:17,860 You get a very strong sense ..of a first draft of history 460 00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:20,060 ..of a first draft of history 461 00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:21,780 reading through these books. 462 00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:24,820 And somewhere in these pages, 463 00:29:24,820 --> 00:29:26,620 somewhere in this box, 464 00:29:26,620 --> 00:29:28,420 is the record of the alleged activities 465 00:29:28,420 --> 00:29:32,020 of a man who now lives in suburban Brisbane. 466 00:29:36,980 --> 00:29:39,820 We are going well. We have found... 467 00:29:39,820 --> 00:29:41,300 You remember... (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) 468 00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:44,980 ..was the one... Yeah. Yeah. We just haven't found... 469 00:29:44,980 --> 00:29:47,220 Rukeshangabo. Oh, we find it! 470 00:29:47,220 --> 00:29:49,020 Here he is. 471 00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:51,860 Rukeshangabo, Frodouard - born in 1956. 472 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:54,820 Oh, we find it! Here it is. 473 00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:58,100 Extraordinary. 474 00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,500 Vincent, we have found him. 475 00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:02,740 I'd been warned not to expect anything 476 00:30:02,740 --> 00:30:05,780 that reads like an Australian court transcript. 477 00:30:05,780 --> 00:30:07,780 It's not always a complete record of a trial 478 00:30:07,780 --> 00:30:10,620 and the evidence often emerges over several years 479 00:30:10,620 --> 00:30:10,860 and the evidence often emerges and across different trials. 480 00:30:10,860 --> 00:30:12,140 and across different trials. 481 00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:12,380 This is a witness and across different trials. 482 00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:14,660 This is a witness giving their statement? 483 00:30:14,660 --> 00:30:14,900 This is a witness Yes, they give the statement... 484 00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:16,580 Yes, they give the statement... 485 00:30:16,580 --> 00:30:19,260 In the two pages we find about Rukeshangabo 486 00:30:19,260 --> 00:30:22,460 I don't see any mention of Alphonse or Bizimungu, 487 00:30:22,460 --> 00:30:25,580 the man he says Rukeshangabo ordered him to attack. 488 00:30:25,580 --> 00:30:28,580 But many of the names we've been told about ARE here, 489 00:30:28,580 --> 00:30:28,820 But many of the names including Deo and Gilbert, 490 00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:30,460 including Deo and Gilbert, 491 00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:30,700 the father and son including Deo and Gilbert, 492 00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:34,220 the father and son allegedly killed before Bizimungu. 493 00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:36,900 That is Reverien, the one who talk to us. 494 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:37,140 That is Reverien, Ah, here's Reverien. 495 00:30:37,140 --> 00:30:38,820 Ah, here's Reverien. 496 00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:42,180 We can't find any reference 497 00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:45,820 to Rukeshangabo leading the genocide in his community, 498 00:30:45,820 --> 00:30:49,500 but at least 10 alleged victims are listed here, 499 00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:52,140 several more than the former lay judge mentioned. 500 00:30:54,140 --> 00:30:56,620 We're still looking for the verdict. 501 00:30:57,540 --> 00:30:59,060 Here we go. 502 00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:02,740 I got it. You got it? 503 00:31:02,740 --> 00:31:05,020 Yes. Got the judgement. Well found. 504 00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:05,260 Yes. Got the judgement. What does the judgement say? 505 00:31:05,260 --> 00:31:06,740 What does the judgement say? 506 00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:08,020 Yes. 507 00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:09,980 They say that after the seating, 508 00:31:09,980 --> 00:31:11,700 after the bench seating, 509 00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:13,980 they found that Rukeshangabo was guilty 510 00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:16,380 and they have sentenced him, uh... 511 00:31:16,380 --> 00:31:18,580 ..30 years of imprisonment. 512 00:31:18,580 --> 00:31:20,820 30 years. Yeah, we are done. 513 00:31:25,300 --> 00:31:27,340 In November 2007 514 00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:31,900 Frodouard Rukeshangabo was found guilty in the Gacaca Court of: 515 00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:41,580 The conviction does not record which deaths he was held responsible for. 516 00:31:43,220 --> 00:31:47,060 Rwandan prosecutors say that anyone already convicted in Gacaca 517 00:31:47,060 --> 00:31:50,380 will be entitled to a fresh trial if they're extradited. 518 00:32:03,380 --> 00:32:06,020 Rwanda's National Public Prosecution Authority 519 00:32:06,020 --> 00:32:09,460 says it has pursued more than 1,100 genocide suspects 520 00:32:09,460 --> 00:32:11,020 across 33 countries. 521 00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:15,300 What have they done about the two Rwandans we're investigating? 522 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:18,740 Yes, hello? Mr Siboyintore. 523 00:32:18,740 --> 00:32:21,260 Thanks so much for making the time to meet with me today. Much appreciated. 524 00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:23,460 Welcome. Welcome. Thank you very much. 525 00:32:23,460 --> 00:32:25,020 Prosecutor John Bosco Siboyintore 526 00:32:25,020 --> 00:32:27,740 has led Rwanda's Genocide Fugitive Tracking Unit 527 00:32:27,740 --> 00:32:27,980 has led Rwanda's for more than a decade. 528 00:32:27,980 --> 00:32:29,500 for more than a decade. 529 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:32,020 I asked him about Celestin Munyaburanga, 530 00:32:32,020 --> 00:32:34,500 whose indictment for at least 21 alleged murders 531 00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:34,740 whose indictment was sent to Australia in 2017. 532 00:32:34,740 --> 00:32:38,380 was sent to Australia in 2017. 533 00:32:38,380 --> 00:32:38,620 We invite the Australian police, together with the prosecution, was sent to Australia in 2017. 534 00:32:38,620 --> 00:32:44,220 We invite the Australian police, together with the prosecution, 535 00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:45,460 to come to Rwanda 536 00:32:45,460 --> 00:32:45,700 to come to Rwanda because it's where the crime scene is located, 537 00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:48,900 because it's where the crime scene is located, 538 00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:49,140 because it's where it's where witnesses will be found. 539 00:32:49,140 --> 00:32:51,980 it's where witnesses will be found. 540 00:32:51,980 --> 00:32:56,500 This is an issue of an international nature. 541 00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:57,740 This is genocide. 542 00:32:57,740 --> 00:33:01,380 What ultimately happened in his Gacaca court trial? 543 00:33:01,380 --> 00:33:04,780 So, his case was tried in his absence. 544 00:33:04,780 --> 00:33:07,100 And the... 545 00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:09,900 ..uh...he was actually.. 546 00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:15,580 On 13 May 2008 547 00:33:15,580 --> 00:33:19,180 he was convicted to life imprisonment 548 00:33:19,180 --> 00:33:21,980 by the court of Busasamana. 549 00:33:21,980 --> 00:33:28,180 So, we have identified another fugitive in Australia 550 00:33:28,180 --> 00:33:32,020 in the names of Frodouard Rukeshangabo, 551 00:33:32,020 --> 00:33:33,700 and we did... 552 00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:35,660 ..we did our thorough investigations, 553 00:33:35,660 --> 00:33:38,540 we came up with a decision of indicting him. 554 00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:44,100 Four Corners has confirmed that an indictment for Rukeshangabo 555 00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:47,260 was received by the Australian government in January. 556 00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:48,860 We haven't seen it. 557 00:33:50,660 --> 00:33:54,980 We will leave no stone unturned until justice is done. 558 00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:03,420 When a country is not prosecuting a genocide case... 559 00:34:04,380 --> 00:34:07,820 ..when it has been asked to do so, 560 00:34:07,820 --> 00:34:08,060 it should know that it is giving ..when it has been asked to do so, 561 00:34:08,060 --> 00:34:12,140 it should know that it is giving safe haven to other perpetrators 562 00:34:12,140 --> 00:34:12,380 it should know that it is giving to come and enjoy that safe haven. 563 00:34:12,380 --> 00:34:15,580 to come and enjoy that safe haven. 564 00:34:15,580 --> 00:34:22,260 It beats every sensible person's understanding. 565 00:34:22,260 --> 00:34:22,500 It beats every sensible person's And they need to face the law. 566 00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:24,860 And they need to face the law. 567 00:34:28,220 --> 00:34:30,420 But President Kagame has been accused 568 00:34:30,420 --> 00:34:32,860 of using the search for genocide suspects 569 00:34:32,860 --> 00:34:35,540 to attack his political enemies abroad. 570 00:34:38,260 --> 00:34:41,540 We've learned of two Rwandan men living in New Zealand, 571 00:34:41,540 --> 00:34:45,300 both significant political players in the pre-genocide regime, 572 00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:47,700 who've been accused of crimes by Rwandan prosecutors. 573 00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:49,780 But, according to documents we've seen, 574 00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:52,340 when authorities in New Zealand investigated, 575 00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:54,380 they found there was no case to answer. 576 00:35:06,140 --> 00:35:07,700 Before I head back to find out 577 00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:10,460 what the Australian government knows about these cases, 578 00:35:10,460 --> 00:35:13,820 there are a couple of people I want to meet here in London. 579 00:35:16,220 --> 00:35:20,100 Has the Rwandan government politicised, even weaponised 580 00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:21,340 allegations of genocide 581 00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:23,500 to pursue political enemies? 582 00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:23,740 The fact that we've also seen Rwandan government assassinations to pursue political enemies? 583 00:35:23,740 --> 00:35:27,780 The fact that we've also seen Rwandan government assassinations 584 00:35:27,780 --> 00:35:28,020 The fact that we've also seen of political opponents abroad, 585 00:35:28,020 --> 00:35:29,980 of political opponents abroad, 586 00:35:29,980 --> 00:35:32,820 the sometimes violent infiltration 587 00:35:32,820 --> 00:35:33,020 the sometimes violent infiltration of diaspora communities, 588 00:35:33,020 --> 00:35:34,980 of diaspora communities, 589 00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:41,100 that activity alongside the pursuit of genocide fugitives 590 00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:45,380 I think raises all sorts of concerns about the justice process. 591 00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:48,300 And, actually, I tend to think that the justice process is quite robust. 592 00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:50,420 I think the Genocide Fugitive Tracking Unit 593 00:35:50,420 --> 00:35:50,660 I think the Genocide Fugitive tends to act more often than not 594 00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:52,540 tends to act more often than not 595 00:35:52,540 --> 00:35:52,780 when it has pretty robust tends to act more often than not 596 00:35:52,780 --> 00:35:55,460 when it has pretty robust evidentiary reasons 597 00:35:55,460 --> 00:35:55,700 when it has pretty robust to pursue certain suspects. 598 00:35:55,700 --> 00:35:57,420 to pursue certain suspects. 599 00:35:57,420 --> 00:36:01,380 Australian, Dr Phil Clark, is a professor of international politics 600 00:36:01,380 --> 00:36:04,020 and has spent two decades studying the Gacaca courts. 601 00:36:04,020 --> 00:36:08,180 His wife, Dr Nicola Palmer, teaches international criminal law 602 00:36:08,180 --> 00:36:11,380 and tracks the Rwandan government's pursuit of genocide suspects 603 00:36:11,380 --> 00:36:11,620 and tracks the Rwandan government's around the globe. 604 00:36:11,620 --> 00:36:12,860 around the globe. 605 00:36:12,860 --> 00:36:13,100 How robust are these trials around the globe. 606 00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:16,700 How robust are these trials from a legal point of view? 607 00:36:17,780 --> 00:36:20,300 I think the information that they provide 608 00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:23,340 is as robust as any other testimony. 609 00:36:23,340 --> 00:36:23,580 is as robust as any other testimony. If you spoke in Gacaca, you spoke under your own name, 610 00:36:23,580 --> 00:36:26,300 If you spoke in Gacaca, you spoke under your own name, 611 00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:26,540 If you spoke in Gacaca, you were immediately recognised, 612 00:36:26,540 --> 00:36:28,300 you were immediately recognised, 613 00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:28,540 and, so, you really had to be able you were immediately recognised, 614 00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:31,860 and, so, you really had to be able to defend what it was that you said. 615 00:36:31,860 --> 00:36:32,100 and, so, you really had to be able (SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 616 00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:34,020 (SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 617 00:36:34,020 --> 00:36:36,500 But critics, including Human Rights Watch, 618 00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:40,780 have argued that a fair trial wasn't guaranteed at Gacaca. 619 00:36:40,780 --> 00:36:43,820 They focused on the lack of legal representation for the accused, 620 00:36:43,820 --> 00:36:48,380 the potential for corruption and the use of hearsay evidence. 621 00:36:50,260 --> 00:36:52,060 I think one of the interesting things here 622 00:36:52,060 --> 00:36:55,900 is that international lawyers and international human rights groups 623 00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:56,140 is that international lawyers and hated Gacaca at the outset, 624 00:36:56,140 --> 00:36:58,380 hated Gacaca at the outset, 625 00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:01,740 and yet almost every international trial 626 00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:04,260 that relates to Rwandan genocide cases 627 00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:06,660 has ended up using Gacaca evidence. 628 00:37:06,660 --> 00:37:09,420 This was a system that tested evidence 629 00:37:09,420 --> 00:37:11,740 that led to a 30% acquittal rate, 630 00:37:11,740 --> 00:37:16,060 uh...that was in some ways often heavily skewed 631 00:37:16,060 --> 00:37:16,300 uh...that was in some ways towards the genocide suspect 632 00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:18,540 towards the genocide suspect 633 00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:22,020 because most of the judges in question were Hutu. 634 00:37:22,020 --> 00:37:22,260 because most of the judges Even in those in-absentia cases, 635 00:37:22,260 --> 00:37:24,700 Even in those in-absentia cases, 636 00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:28,420 it didn't guarantee that these individuals would be found guilty. 637 00:37:28,420 --> 00:37:28,660 it didn't guarantee that these In fact, we have plenty of evidence 638 00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:29,900 In fact, we have plenty of evidence 639 00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:30,140 to suggest it was possible to defend In fact, we have plenty of evidence 640 00:37:30,140 --> 00:37:33,660 to suggest it was possible to defend yourself even from a distance. 641 00:37:33,660 --> 00:37:38,340 Australia has received one indictment from the Rwandan government. 642 00:37:38,340 --> 00:37:38,580 Australia has received one indictment It may receive more in the future. 643 00:37:38,580 --> 00:37:40,140 It may receive more in the future. 644 00:37:40,140 --> 00:37:40,380 How should Australia, It may receive more in the future. 645 00:37:40,380 --> 00:37:42,660 How should Australia, how should countries like Australia, 646 00:37:42,660 --> 00:37:42,900 How should Australia, respond to those indictments? 647 00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:44,420 respond to those indictments? 648 00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:50,580 My own sense is that extradition is the best response in these cases 649 00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:53,980 if there is sufficient prima facie evidence 650 00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:57,140 to suggest that a trial is necessary. 651 00:37:57,140 --> 00:38:00,620 But, if that is not possible for all sorts of reasons, 652 00:38:00,620 --> 00:38:02,020 then I think it's the responsibility 653 00:38:02,020 --> 00:38:03,980 of those host countries, like Australia, 654 00:38:03,980 --> 00:38:07,980 to find a way to deal with these cases through their own courts. 655 00:38:07,980 --> 00:38:08,220 to find a way to deal with these I think one has to be cautious, 656 00:38:08,220 --> 00:38:11,820 I think one has to be cautious, 657 00:38:11,820 --> 00:38:13,100 as we've said, 658 00:38:13,100 --> 00:38:16,140 around the evidence 659 00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:18,620 that is initially presented in the indictment, 660 00:38:18,620 --> 00:38:23,220 but I do think it prompts and warrants further investigation. 661 00:38:23,220 --> 00:38:23,460 but I do think it prompts (SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 662 00:38:23,460 --> 00:38:26,140 (SPEAKS IN LOCAL LANGUAGE) 663 00:38:26,140 --> 00:38:28,380 If you were a poor peasant farmer 664 00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:30,900 accused of genocide crimes on the Rwandan hills, 665 00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:32,540 you got prosecuted through Gacaca. 666 00:38:32,540 --> 00:38:35,940 But there's been a completely different process 667 00:38:35,940 --> 00:38:38,460 for those who were wealthy enough to escape the country. 668 00:38:38,460 --> 00:38:41,580 Most of them have avoided scrutiny completely. 669 00:38:41,580 --> 00:38:43,860 Many of these individuals undoubtedly are innocent, 670 00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:45,380 but they should have their day in court 671 00:38:45,380 --> 00:38:48,620 and they should have to answer for the accusations against them, 672 00:38:48,620 --> 00:38:51,660 just as genocide suspects who were caught inside Rwanda 673 00:38:51,660 --> 00:38:51,900 just as genocide suspects had to do so in front of Gacaca. 674 00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:53,500 had to do so in front of Gacaca. 675 00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:07,660 (PHONE LINE RINGS) 676 00:39:07,660 --> 00:39:12,220 We first reached out to Rukeshangabo back in November. 677 00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:14,580 (ON SPEAKERPHONE) Hello?! 678 00:39:14,580 --> 00:39:18,100 Uh... Good afternoon. Is that Frodouard Rukeshangabo speaking? 679 00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:18,340 Uh... Good afternoon. Is that This is Frodouard. How are you? 680 00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:19,980 This is Frodouard. How are you? 681 00:39:19,980 --> 00:39:20,220 Mr Rukeshangabo, This is Frodouard. How are you? 682 00:39:20,220 --> 00:39:22,780 Mr Rukeshangabo, my name is Ben Doherty... 683 00:39:22,780 --> 00:39:23,020 Mr Rukeshangabo, The allegations have been around 684 00:39:23,020 --> 00:39:24,380 The allegations have been around 685 00:39:24,380 --> 00:39:27,420 since articles first appeared online a few years ago, 686 00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:31,540 dismissed by some in the diaspora as politically motivated. 687 00:39:31,540 --> 00:39:36,020 Australia's small Rwandan community is deeply divided. 688 00:39:36,020 --> 00:39:38,700 What... What is your position in this matter? 689 00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:42,140 Uh... Mr Rukeshangabo, I don't have a position in this matter. 690 00:39:42,140 --> 00:39:44,420 I'm making no judgements, um... about this. 691 00:39:44,420 --> 00:39:47,060 But these are very serious matters, um... 692 00:39:47,060 --> 00:39:50,140 ..and I wanted to put those to you, if that was possible. 693 00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:57,980 Mr Rukeshangabo, are you there? 694 00:39:59,380 --> 00:40:01,380 (PHONE LINE BEEPS) 695 00:40:01,380 --> 00:40:02,860 He's hung up. 696 00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:06,700 Last month, after our visit to Rwanda, 697 00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:09,940 we sent him a detailed list of the allegations against him 698 00:40:09,940 --> 00:40:11,940 and repeated our request for an interview. 699 00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:15,620 He replied: 700 00:40:19,260 --> 00:40:23,140 In an earlier message he said: 701 00:40:35,180 --> 00:40:38,460 So, I've put together this timeline on Rukeshangabo. 702 00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:40,060 We're not making any assumptions about the truth 703 00:40:40,060 --> 00:40:40,300 We're not making any assumptions of these allegations, 704 00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:41,500 of these allegations, 705 00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:44,580 but how did someone accused of genocide in Rwanda 706 00:40:44,580 --> 00:40:46,820 manage to become an Australian citizen? 707 00:40:46,820 --> 00:40:48,540 My colleague Dunja Karagic 708 00:40:48,540 --> 00:40:51,020 has been looking into the effectiveness of our screening. 709 00:40:51,020 --> 00:40:54,620 OK, so, his conviction happens in 2007. 710 00:40:54,620 --> 00:40:54,860 OK, so, his conviction happens in 2007. In 2009 he arrives in Australia. 711 00:40:54,860 --> 00:40:57,140 In 2009 he arrives in Australia. 712 00:40:57,140 --> 00:40:58,500 But, from what you've been told, 713 00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:00,660 it's very likely that Australian authorities 714 00:41:00,660 --> 00:41:02,900 just didn't have any information about his conviction. 715 00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:07,620 But Rwandan prosecutors have shown us a list, a Gacaca fugitives database, 716 00:41:07,620 --> 00:41:07,860 But Rwandan prosecutors have shown us that has his name on it, 717 00:41:07,860 --> 00:41:09,100 that has his name on it, 718 00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:11,500 and that was accessible from 2012. 719 00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:13,900 That's two years before he becomes a citizen. 720 00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:14,140 That's two years Yeah, so, in theory, 721 00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:15,060 Yeah, so, in theory, 722 00:41:15,060 --> 00:41:17,940 his name should have been on the Central Movement Alert list, 723 00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:19,660 that list used by immigration authorities 724 00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:19,900 that list to flag people of suspicion 725 00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:21,180 to flag people of suspicion 726 00:41:21,180 --> 00:41:23,900 from entering the country or from getting citizenship. 727 00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:26,100 So, why wasn't he picked up on that list then? 728 00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:28,140 I mean, we don't know for certain if he was or he wasn't, 729 00:41:28,140 --> 00:41:30,660 but I've spoken to several former immigration staff 730 00:41:30,660 --> 00:41:33,260 who've raised problems with this list. 731 00:41:33,260 --> 00:41:36,380 And they're saying people just slip through the net? 732 00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:36,620 And they're saying Sometimes, yeah. 733 00:41:36,620 --> 00:41:38,340 Sometimes, yeah. 734 00:41:43,860 --> 00:41:45,340 The man I'm going to meet 735 00:41:45,340 --> 00:41:47,820 knows that, in the past, suspected war criminals 736 00:41:47,820 --> 00:41:51,460 from conflicts such as the Balkans, Sri Lanka and Cambodia 737 00:41:51,460 --> 00:41:53,300 have found sanctuary in Australia. 738 00:41:58,140 --> 00:42:00,060 Graham Blewitt was the deputy prosecutor 739 00:42:00,060 --> 00:42:04,060 at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, 740 00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:07,140 but before that he ran the Special Investigations Unit, 741 00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:07,380 but before that he ran established in 1987 742 00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:08,740 established in 1987 743 00:42:08,740 --> 00:42:11,500 to investigate the presence of alleged Nazi war criminals 744 00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:12,780 in Australia. 745 00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:15,580 The final chapter today 746 00:42:15,580 --> 00:42:18,620 in Australia's war crime investigations. 747 00:42:18,620 --> 00:42:20,660 Conducted over seven years 748 00:42:20,660 --> 00:42:23,060 at a cost of $17 million, 749 00:42:23,060 --> 00:42:25,820 not one conviction was secured. 750 00:42:28,420 --> 00:42:30,740 Well, you've put seven years of your life into this, Mr Blewitt. 751 00:42:30,740 --> 00:42:30,980 Well, you've put seven years How do you feel tonight? 752 00:42:30,980 --> 00:42:32,620 How do you feel tonight? 753 00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:35,020 Well, it's been a long road, 754 00:42:35,020 --> 00:42:37,220 and I'm very... 755 00:42:37,220 --> 00:42:40,460 ..disappointed that the cases ended the way they did. 756 00:42:41,420 --> 00:42:42,900 Hello, Graham. Ben Doherty. 757 00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:44,540 G'day, Ben. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. 758 00:42:44,540 --> 00:42:46,300 Come in, please. Thanks so much for the invitation. 759 00:42:48,340 --> 00:42:52,140 Australia has no permanent investigations unit, 760 00:42:52,140 --> 00:42:52,380 and that's why these allegations Australia has no permanent investigations unit, 761 00:42:52,380 --> 00:42:56,060 and that's why these allegations 762 00:42:56,060 --> 00:42:56,300 that there are war criminals and that's why these allegations 763 00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:58,540 that there are war criminals living in Australia 764 00:42:58,540 --> 00:43:02,300 um...are not attended to. 765 00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:03,900 Graham points out 766 00:43:03,900 --> 00:43:07,460 that countries like the United States, Canada and Great Britain 767 00:43:07,460 --> 00:43:09,860 do have permanent war crimes investigations units. 768 00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:14,060 And if allegations arise within their country, 769 00:43:14,060 --> 00:43:14,300 And if allegations then they, uh... 770 00:43:14,300 --> 00:43:16,540 then they, uh... 771 00:43:16,540 --> 00:43:19,020 ..are able to investigate and bring prosecutions. 772 00:43:19,020 --> 00:43:19,260 ..are able to investigate And these are happening. 773 00:43:19,260 --> 00:43:21,740 And these are happening. 774 00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:24,620 You've seen these allegations 775 00:43:24,620 --> 00:43:27,900 made against two men believed to be living in Australia. 776 00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:29,420 What do you make of these two cases? 777 00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:31,220 Just looking at the material, 778 00:43:31,220 --> 00:43:33,780 the allegations are certainly serious 779 00:43:33,780 --> 00:43:35,580 and I believe the Australian government 780 00:43:35,580 --> 00:43:35,820 and I believe should do something about it. 781 00:43:35,820 --> 00:43:37,060 should do something about it. 782 00:43:37,060 --> 00:43:41,220 We should be part of this team, international team, 783 00:43:41,220 --> 00:43:41,460 We should be part of this team, bringing war criminals to justice. 784 00:43:41,460 --> 00:43:43,700 bringing war criminals to justice. 785 00:43:46,660 --> 00:43:49,340 The Attorney-General declined our interview request, 786 00:43:49,340 --> 00:43:49,580 The Attorney-General but a spokesperson said: 787 00:43:49,580 --> 00:43:51,820 but a spokesperson said: 788 00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:04,020 And a spokesperson for the Home Affairs Minister said: 789 00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:17,340 I'm still the same person in the first bit of the film with no hair 790 00:44:17,340 --> 00:44:17,580 I'm still the same person in the and now I just bought hair! 791 00:44:17,580 --> 00:44:19,100 and now I just bought hair! 792 00:44:20,380 --> 00:44:21,980 That's the way it works. 793 00:44:21,980 --> 00:44:24,180 You wake up in the morning, you've got big hair. 794 00:44:30,020 --> 00:44:34,540 Frida Umuhoza understands how important justice is to survivors. 795 00:44:36,180 --> 00:44:39,340 It's why she's been helping us look into Celestin Munyaburanga, 796 00:44:39,340 --> 00:44:42,220 the alleged killer from her hometown. 797 00:44:44,380 --> 00:44:48,220 (PHONE RINGS) 798 00:44:50,060 --> 00:44:51,220 Hello? 799 00:44:51,220 --> 00:44:51,460 Hello. Hello? 800 00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:53,820 Hello. Frida, it's Ben Doherty calling. 801 00:44:53,820 --> 00:44:54,060 Hello. Oh, hi, Ben. How are you? 802 00:44:54,060 --> 00:44:55,540 Oh, hi, Ben. How are you? 803 00:44:55,540 --> 00:44:57,260 I'm well, thank you. Well, thank you. 804 00:44:57,260 --> 00:44:57,500 For months we've been searching for I'm well, thank you. Well, thank you. 805 00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:00,900 For months we've been searching for traces of Munyaburanga in Australia. 806 00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:03,420 But I'm afraid we've reached a dead end. 807 00:45:03,420 --> 00:45:07,180 I think, you know we identified a house in Queensland 808 00:45:07,180 --> 00:45:07,420 I think, you know where his family lives. 809 00:45:07,420 --> 00:45:08,660 where his family lives. 810 00:45:08,660 --> 00:45:08,900 There's also a man where his family lives. 811 00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:12,700 There's also a man of about the right age 812 00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:14,180 who was seen at the house. Yep. 813 00:45:14,180 --> 00:45:15,940 But we don't... Yep. 814 00:45:15,940 --> 00:45:18,380 We don't know for sure. We can't confirm that it's him. 815 00:45:18,380 --> 00:45:21,620 But we just don't know. And I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure. 816 00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:25,580 It is disappointing, but at the same time it's not surprising to me 817 00:45:25,580 --> 00:45:25,820 It is disappointing, but at the because it's...it's, um... 818 00:45:25,820 --> 00:45:27,340 because it's...it's, um... 819 00:45:27,340 --> 00:45:27,580 ..it's just even, like, my... because it's...it's, um... 820 00:45:27,580 --> 00:45:30,460 ..it's just even, like, my... the guy who killed my father, 821 00:45:30,460 --> 00:45:32,620 I don't really know where he lives, I really don't. 822 00:45:33,580 --> 00:45:35,540 Nobody knows where he is. 823 00:45:36,660 --> 00:45:40,180 It's 30 years since the genocide against the Tutsi. 824 00:45:40,180 --> 00:45:44,740 It's still really important to you that they are held to account? 825 00:45:44,740 --> 00:45:47,380 I think it doesn't matter what age you are 826 00:45:47,380 --> 00:45:47,620 I think it doesn't matter because there's a lot of survivors 827 00:45:47,620 --> 00:45:49,420 because there's a lot of survivors 828 00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:52,660 who are still living with their scars and wounds. 829 00:45:54,540 --> 00:45:56,900 We're all connected, we all of us are connected 830 00:45:56,900 --> 00:45:59,980 and what the other person felt we have all felt. 831 00:46:02,540 --> 00:46:05,700 Genocide is not a crime that grows out. 832 00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:19,860 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 833 00:46:37,340 --> 00:46:38,860 Captions by Red Bee Media 834 00:46:38,860 --> 00:46:41,060 Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation