1 00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:02,060 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 2 00:00:16,020 --> 00:00:17,980 JOHN LYONS: For five months now 3 00:00:17,980 --> 00:00:18,220 JOHN LYONS: For five months now have been bombarded by images 4 00:00:18,220 --> 00:00:20,460 our screens have been bombarded by images 5 00:00:20,460 --> 00:00:24,780 depicting Israel's air and ground assault on Gaza. 6 00:00:24,780 --> 00:00:25,020 This extraordinary footage air and ground assault on Gaza. 7 00:00:25,020 --> 00:00:27,020 This extraordinary footage 8 00:00:27,020 --> 00:00:27,260 This extraordinary footage the destruction has been. 9 00:00:27,260 --> 00:00:31,060 shows just how widespread the destruction has been. 10 00:00:32,060 --> 00:00:35,220 Israel is still denying foreign journalists 11 00:00:35,220 --> 00:00:35,460 Israel is still denying independent access to Gaza. 12 00:00:35,460 --> 00:00:37,780 independent access to Gaza. 13 00:00:37,780 --> 00:00:38,020 We're in Israel independent access to Gaza. 14 00:00:38,020 --> 00:00:42,300 We're in Israel about a kilometre from the border. 15 00:00:43,780 --> 00:00:48,060 Generations of historians will study this Gaza war, 16 00:00:48,060 --> 00:00:50,740 the violence of Hamas's October 7 attack 17 00:00:50,740 --> 00:00:51,020 the violence of Hamas's October 7 attack and the unparalleled ferocity of Israel's retaliation, 18 00:00:51,020 --> 00:00:54,820 and the unparalleled ferocity of Israel's retaliation, 19 00:00:54,820 --> 00:00:58,260 which left tens of thousands of Palestinians dead 20 00:00:58,260 --> 00:01:01,940 and vast sections of Gaza reduced to rubble. 21 00:01:01,940 --> 00:01:02,220 One thing they'll focus on will be Israel's response. and vast sections of Gaza reduced to rubble. 22 00:01:02,220 --> 00:01:05,820 One thing they'll focus on will be Israel's response. 23 00:01:05,820 --> 00:01:06,060 Was it proportionate? will be Israel's response. 24 00:01:06,060 --> 00:01:07,340 Was it proportionate? 25 00:01:07,340 --> 00:01:12,060 Or was it driven by rage, humiliation and revenge? 26 00:01:13,020 --> 00:01:16,340 Was it legitimate self-defence? 27 00:01:16,340 --> 00:01:18,820 Or did it involve the commission of war crimes, 28 00:01:18,820 --> 00:01:22,340 as Israel's detractors around the world have alleged? 29 00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:22,580 as Israel's detractors around the world have alleged? And would the war 30 00:01:22,580 --> 00:01:23,940 And would the war 31 00:01:23,940 --> 00:01:26,620 jolt the international community into pushing for something 32 00:01:26,620 --> 00:01:30,660 that Israel's leadership had for so long resisted - 33 00:01:30,660 --> 00:01:32,900 a Palestinian state? 34 00:01:34,580 --> 00:01:36,460 In this Four Corners 35 00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:38,140 we go head to head with insiders 36 00:01:38,140 --> 00:01:38,380 at the centre of Israel's defence we go head to head with insiders 37 00:01:38,380 --> 00:01:42,260 at the centre of Israel's defence and intelligence establishment, 38 00:01:42,260 --> 00:01:42,500 at the centre of Israel's defence a former prime minister... 39 00:01:42,500 --> 00:01:44,940 a former prime minister... 40 00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:46,140 Let's start. 41 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:47,860 ..two ex-intelligence chiefs, 42 00:01:47,860 --> 00:01:50,020 a current cabinet minister 43 00:01:50,020 --> 00:01:53,020 and a one-time Israeli army commander. 44 00:01:53,020 --> 00:01:57,220 We challenged them about one of the most controversial wars... 45 00:01:57,220 --> 00:01:57,980 Are you ready? 46 00:01:57,980 --> 00:01:59,340 ..in modern times. 47 00:01:59,340 --> 00:02:03,380 Why has the most powerful army in the Middle East, Israel, 48 00:02:03,380 --> 00:02:05,660 killed so many children? 49 00:02:05,660 --> 00:02:08,980 Do you think that revenge has become a major factor in Israel's response? 50 00:02:08,980 --> 00:02:09,220 Do you think that revenge has become No. 51 00:02:09,220 --> 00:02:09,980 No. 52 00:02:09,980 --> 00:02:11,860 Can Hamas be destroyed? 53 00:02:11,860 --> 00:02:12,100 Hamas as a military organisation Can Hamas be destroyed? 54 00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:15,220 Hamas as a military organisation will be destroyed. 55 00:02:15,220 --> 00:02:15,460 Hamas as a military organisation They hate us! 56 00:02:15,460 --> 00:02:16,900 They hate us! 57 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:18,740 We saw the results. 58 00:02:18,740 --> 00:02:23,140 The idea of eradicating Hamas completely from Gaza 59 00:02:23,140 --> 00:02:25,420 is a just cause. 60 00:02:25,420 --> 00:02:28,620 I don't think that anyone made a deliberate decision 61 00:02:28,620 --> 00:02:28,860 I don't think that anyone to kill children. 62 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:30,100 to kill children. 63 00:02:30,100 --> 00:02:32,300 YEHUDA SHAUL: That the IDF is doing everything 64 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:33,500 to avoid civilian casualties 65 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:35,180 is a blunt lie. 66 00:02:35,180 --> 00:02:36,500 Straight lie. 67 00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:37,300 (CRIES) 68 00:02:37,300 --> 00:02:41,580 Gaza was already one of the most desperate places on Earth. 69 00:02:41,580 --> 00:02:41,820 Gaza was already one of the most (SCREAMS) 70 00:02:41,820 --> 00:02:42,580 (SCREAMS) 71 00:02:42,580 --> 00:02:48,140 Now it's uninhabitable, plagued by mass starvation and disease. 72 00:02:48,140 --> 00:02:53,620 When I look at it, Israel is committing a series of war crimes. 73 00:02:53,620 --> 00:02:53,860 When I look at it, Israel is (EXPLOSION) 74 00:02:53,860 --> 00:02:54,620 (EXPLOSION) 75 00:02:54,620 --> 00:02:54,860 Some warned that Israel's fierce response to October 7 (EXPLOSION) 76 00:02:54,860 --> 00:02:58,660 Some warned that Israel's fierce response to October 7 77 00:02:58,660 --> 00:03:03,380 will have sown seeds of hatred for generations to come. 78 00:03:04,340 --> 00:03:06,020 Is there a way out 79 00:03:06,020 --> 00:03:09,780 of what's beginning to look like The Forever War? 80 00:03:38,740 --> 00:03:44,260 October 7 was the deadliest day in Israel's history. 81 00:03:48,860 --> 00:03:52,860 AVI DICHTER: Saturday morning, it was about 6 o'clock I woke up. 82 00:03:52,860 --> 00:03:53,140 AVI DICHTER: Saturday morning, it was about 6 o'clock I woke up. I got to prepare myself to go to the beach to swim. 83 00:03:53,140 --> 00:03:56,780 I got to prepare myself to go to the beach to swim. 84 00:03:56,780 --> 00:03:57,020 I got to prepare myself About 20 minutes later 85 00:03:57,020 --> 00:03:58,980 About 20 minutes later 86 00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:02,300 I heard noises of Iron Dome rockets 87 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:02,500 I heard noises of Iron Dome rockets far away. 88 00:04:02,500 --> 00:04:03,780 far away. 89 00:04:03,780 --> 00:04:07,500 (ROCKETS WHOOSH) 90 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:09,260 As someone who lives in Ashkelon, 91 00:04:09,260 --> 00:04:09,500 I'm familiar with the noises As someone who lives in Ashkelon, 92 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:13,860 I'm familiar with the noises of rockets of Iron Dome. 93 00:04:13,860 --> 00:04:14,100 I'm familiar with the noises It was very odd 94 00:04:14,100 --> 00:04:15,060 It was very odd 95 00:04:15,060 --> 00:04:20,820 because Iron Dome before a siren, it's a never happened before. 96 00:04:20,820 --> 00:04:21,060 because Iron Dome before a siren, (ROCKETS WHOOSH) 97 00:04:21,060 --> 00:04:26,900 (ROCKETS WHOOSH) 98 00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:27,140 AMI AYALON: (ROCKETS WHOOSH) 99 00:04:27,140 --> 00:04:29,380 AMI AYALON: I got a telephone call from my son. 100 00:04:29,380 --> 00:04:30,900 He asked me what is the code 101 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:31,140 in order to open the safe here in in my home. He asked me what is the code 102 00:04:31,140 --> 00:04:35,260 in order to open the safe here in in my home. 103 00:04:35,260 --> 00:04:37,500 I said, "Why do you need the code?" 104 00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:42,300 And he said he need his gun because his gun is in our safe. 105 00:04:42,300 --> 00:04:42,540 And he said he need his gun He then said, "There is a war." 106 00:04:42,540 --> 00:04:44,780 He then said, "There is a war." 107 00:04:44,780 --> 00:04:46,500 And I said, "What?!" 108 00:04:52,820 --> 00:04:57,060 (GUNSHOTS) 109 00:05:01,780 --> 00:05:04,700 YEHUDA SHAUL: I was watching all the horrible videos 110 00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:04,940 YEHUDA SHAUL: I was watching coming out from the south and... 111 00:05:04,940 --> 00:05:06,380 coming out from the south and... 112 00:05:07,340 --> 00:05:09,260 And I became physically sick. 113 00:05:10,420 --> 00:05:13,980 The level of dehumanisation, the brutality... 114 00:05:13,980 --> 00:05:14,220 ..yeah, was just beyond belief. the brutality... 115 00:05:14,220 --> 00:05:17,140 ..yeah, was just beyond belief. 116 00:05:17,140 --> 00:05:20,820 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 117 00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:21,060 (INDISTINCT YELLING) (GUNSHOTS) (WOMAN SCREAMS) 118 00:05:21,060 --> 00:05:24,780 (GUNSHOTS) (WOMAN SCREAMS) 119 00:05:24,780 --> 00:05:28,580 (GUNFIRE) (CRIES) 120 00:05:31,860 --> 00:05:33,340 What went wrong? 121 00:05:33,340 --> 00:05:35,740 Everything. 122 00:05:35,740 --> 00:05:36,820 Literally everything. 123 00:05:40,620 --> 00:05:42,220 EHUD BARAK: It became clear that 124 00:05:42,220 --> 00:05:47,700 that's the worst failure of our intelligence and operational forces 125 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:47,980 since the establishment of the state of Israel. that's the worst failure of our intelligence and operational forces 126 00:05:47,980 --> 00:05:50,620 since the establishment of the state of Israel. 127 00:05:56,060 --> 00:05:57,660 Israel is at war. 128 00:05:57,660 --> 00:06:00,300 ABDALJAWAD OMAR: From the beginning of the first moment, I knew that 129 00:06:00,300 --> 00:06:00,580 such a big event will also bring a ferocious Israel ABDALJAWAD OMAR: From the beginning of the first moment, I knew that 130 00:06:00,580 --> 00:06:05,340 such a big event will also bring a ferocious Israel 131 00:06:05,340 --> 00:06:07,100 and a ferocious Israeli response. 132 00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:07,340 and a ferocious Israeli response. They've made a mistake of historic proportions. 133 00:06:07,340 --> 00:06:10,820 They've made a mistake of historic proportions. 134 00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:11,060 They've made a mistake They will get cemeteries. 135 00:06:11,060 --> 00:06:13,300 They will get cemeteries. 136 00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:15,180 That's what Hamas is going to get. 137 00:06:15,180 --> 00:06:15,420 I'm telling you, the tunnels that... That's what Hamas is going to get. 138 00:06:15,420 --> 00:06:18,060 I'm telling you, the tunnels that... They dug tunnels - 139 00:06:18,060 --> 00:06:23,140 I'm telling you, they dug the biggest cemetery in the world. 140 00:06:29,060 --> 00:06:31,820 YEHUDA SHAUL: You know, at the beginning I was also full of rage. 141 00:06:31,820 --> 00:06:32,060 YEHUDA SHAUL: You know, at the (EXPLOSIONS) 142 00:06:32,060 --> 00:06:34,420 (EXPLOSIONS) 143 00:06:34,420 --> 00:06:36,300 I also had the feeling that, you know... 144 00:06:37,620 --> 00:06:39,300 .."These are animals. 145 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:41,820 "We need to go there and bomb the hell out of them." 146 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:42,060 "We need to go there (EXPLOSION) 147 00:06:42,060 --> 00:06:44,300 (EXPLOSION) 148 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:48,940 But then you stop for a second and you think 149 00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:49,180 But then you stop for a second and you say to yourself, 150 00:06:49,180 --> 00:06:51,100 and you say to yourself, 151 00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:54,660 "What did we think is gonna happen 152 00:06:54,660 --> 00:06:55,660 "after... 153 00:06:56,620 --> 00:06:58,180 "..16 years of siege?" 154 00:06:59,980 --> 00:07:02,300 AMIRA HASS: I was surprised and not surprised 155 00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:02,540 AMIRA HASS: because I kept warning 156 00:07:02,540 --> 00:07:04,420 because I kept warning 157 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:07,980 that people cannot stand the accumulated cruelty 158 00:07:07,980 --> 00:07:10,980 accumulated over so many decades, 159 00:07:10,980 --> 00:07:13,500 and somehow it will... there will be an explosion, 160 00:07:13,500 --> 00:07:13,740 somehow there will be an outburst. and somehow it will... there will be an explosion, 161 00:07:13,740 --> 00:07:16,020 somehow there will be an outburst. 162 00:07:16,020 --> 00:07:18,380 I couldn't imagine what it would be, 163 00:07:18,380 --> 00:07:18,620 I couldn't imagine but, uh...but there it came. 164 00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:20,860 but, uh...but there it came. 165 00:07:52,380 --> 00:07:55,420 The occupied Palestinian territory 166 00:07:55,420 --> 00:07:57,180 is made up of three parts - 167 00:07:57,180 --> 00:07:57,420 is made up Gaza, the West Bank 168 00:07:57,420 --> 00:07:59,180 Gaza, the West Bank 169 00:07:59,180 --> 00:08:01,580 and East Jerusalem. 170 00:08:01,580 --> 00:08:03,780 Gaza, under Israeli blockade 171 00:08:03,780 --> 00:08:05,420 since the militant group Hamas 172 00:08:05,420 --> 00:08:07,860 seized power in 2007, 173 00:08:07,860 --> 00:08:09,460 and the West Bank, 174 00:08:09,460 --> 00:08:09,700 run by the moderate and the West Bank, 175 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:11,940 run by the moderate Palestinian Authority, 176 00:08:11,940 --> 00:08:16,780 although more than 700,000 Israeli settlers also now live there 177 00:08:16,780 --> 00:08:17,020 although more than 700,000 protected by Israeli soldiers. 178 00:08:17,020 --> 00:08:19,420 protected by Israeli soldiers. 179 00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:26,460 The architecture of occupation is brutalist. 180 00:08:27,420 --> 00:08:31,460 Palestinians require permits to enter or leave the West Bank. 181 00:08:32,420 --> 00:08:35,860 There are scores of fixed checkpoints, pop-up checkpoints, 182 00:08:35,860 --> 00:08:39,060 internal checkpoints, occasional checkpoints, roadblocks, 183 00:08:39,060 --> 00:08:43,860 earth mounds, road gates, walls, fortified barriers and trenches. 184 00:08:43,860 --> 00:08:47,100 More than 600 physical obstacles 185 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:50,620 and about 100 different permits in total, 186 00:08:50,620 --> 00:08:50,860 and about 100 different permits and everywhere 187 00:08:50,860 --> 00:08:52,620 and everywhere 188 00:08:52,620 --> 00:08:54,620 Big Brother surveillance cameras 189 00:08:54,620 --> 00:08:54,860 armed with face-recognition Big Brother surveillance cameras 190 00:08:54,860 --> 00:08:57,700 armed with face-recognition technologies. 191 00:08:59,140 --> 00:09:02,220 Israel says it's for security. 192 00:09:02,220 --> 00:09:02,460 19-year-old Israeli soldiers Israel says it's for security. 193 00:09:02,460 --> 00:09:05,420 19-year-old Israeli soldiers in the West Bank 194 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:05,660 19-year-old Israeli soldiers wield absolute power. 195 00:09:05,660 --> 00:09:07,940 wield absolute power. 196 00:09:07,940 --> 00:09:11,140 Even if they kill an innocent Palestinian, 197 00:09:11,140 --> 00:09:14,060 they'll rarely face serious consequences. 198 00:09:15,020 --> 00:09:16,420 This is Qalandia checkpoint, 199 00:09:16,420 --> 00:09:18,900 the main checkpoint between Jerusalem that way 200 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:20,660 and Ramallah in the West Bank that way. 201 00:09:20,660 --> 00:09:24,020 Now, a place like this shows the tyranny of occupation. 202 00:09:24,020 --> 00:09:24,260 Now, a place like this We've just seen a Palestinian man 203 00:09:24,260 --> 00:09:25,740 We've just seen a Palestinian man 204 00:09:25,740 --> 00:09:28,700 come down here and try to go through that gate. 205 00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:32,300 And that security person behind me, he said no to him. 206 00:09:32,300 --> 00:09:34,180 He wouldn't let him. And they closed the gate. 207 00:09:34,180 --> 00:09:37,900 Now, that Palestinian may have to walk now two or three hours 208 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:39,140 all the way around there 209 00:09:39,140 --> 00:09:40,700 just to get through that gate, 210 00:09:40,700 --> 00:09:42,940 which they've just decided to reopen. 211 00:09:42,940 --> 00:09:46,500 It's the complete unpredictability. It's the tyranny. 212 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:48,780 It's these concrete enforcers of occupation. 213 00:09:48,780 --> 00:09:52,380 This is part of what grinds down Palestinians, 214 00:09:52,380 --> 00:09:54,980 is that they never know at the checkpoint 215 00:09:54,980 --> 00:09:55,220 is that they never know what soldier, what police officer 216 00:09:55,220 --> 00:09:56,820 what soldier, what police officer 217 00:09:56,820 --> 00:09:57,060 is going to let them through what soldier, what police officer 218 00:09:57,060 --> 00:09:59,420 is going to let them through or not let them through. 219 00:10:04,740 --> 00:10:06,980 You've spent a lot of time studying this, obviously... 220 00:10:06,980 --> 00:10:08,820 OK. ..as head of Shin Bet. 221 00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:13,380 Could you describe what is the reality for Palestinians here? 222 00:10:13,380 --> 00:10:13,620 Could you describe what is A life of people 223 00:10:13,620 --> 00:10:15,860 A life of people 224 00:10:15,860 --> 00:10:18,460 who dream about... 225 00:10:18,460 --> 00:10:19,660 ..freedom, 226 00:10:19,660 --> 00:10:22,180 and don't see it. 227 00:10:22,180 --> 00:10:26,380 Whether we like it or not, we control the life of millions. 228 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:35,260 If you were a Palestinian living in the West Bank or Gaza, 229 00:10:35,260 --> 00:10:35,500 If you were a Palestinian what would your view be of Israel? 230 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:38,580 what would your view be of Israel? 231 00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:43,660 I would fight against Israel in order to achieve my liberty. 232 00:10:43,660 --> 00:10:45,460 How would you fight? How dirty? 233 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:52,420 I would do everything in order to achieve my liberty. And that's it. 234 00:10:52,420 --> 00:10:52,660 I would do everything in order to (HUBBUB) 235 00:10:52,660 --> 00:10:57,180 (HUBBUB) 236 00:10:57,180 --> 00:10:57,420 ABDALJAWAD OMAR: Life for us (HUBBUB) 237 00:10:57,420 --> 00:11:01,180 ABDALJAWAD OMAR: Life for us is struggling not to drown. 238 00:11:01,180 --> 00:11:05,900 It's basically continuing on survival mode all the time. 239 00:11:11,260 --> 00:11:12,740 It's to have your life 240 00:11:12,740 --> 00:11:12,980 It's to have your life being determined by an other people - 241 00:11:12,980 --> 00:11:15,540 being determined by an other people - 242 00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:15,780 being determined what type of economy you have, 243 00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:17,140 what type of economy you have, 244 00:11:17,140 --> 00:11:20,300 who you can fall in love with and live with, 245 00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:24,260 the ability of somebody else to humiliate you on a daily basis 246 00:11:24,260 --> 00:11:24,500 the ability of somebody else just passing through a checkpoint. 247 00:11:24,500 --> 00:11:26,180 just passing through a checkpoint. 248 00:11:26,180 --> 00:11:28,580 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 249 00:11:28,580 --> 00:11:32,300 We sometimes feel like we live in this field of targets. 250 00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:36,260 I've seen personally when an Israeli sniper hit one of my friends 251 00:11:36,260 --> 00:11:39,500 and high fived his buddy that he got the target. 252 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:39,740 and high fived his buddy Life under occupation is basically 253 00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:42,620 Life under occupation is basically 254 00:11:42,620 --> 00:11:45,100 being expected to normalise with the abnormal. 255 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:52,940 What's it like having a gun pointed at you? 256 00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:53,180 What's it like It's... It's totally abnormal. 257 00:11:53,180 --> 00:11:55,420 It's... It's totally abnormal. 258 00:11:55,420 --> 00:11:58,700 It's not civilised, to say the least. 259 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:01,700 If I want to take my kids over the weekend to visit their grandma, 260 00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:04,260 who lives 40 minutes away from Ramallah, 261 00:12:04,260 --> 00:12:04,500 who lives 40 minutes away we have to pass two checkpoints. 262 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:06,260 we have to pass two checkpoints. 263 00:12:06,260 --> 00:12:07,780 We have to stop, get checked 264 00:12:07,780 --> 00:12:10,660 with the soldiers pointing the guns at the back seat 265 00:12:10,660 --> 00:12:13,660 where my kids, you know, are terrified, 266 00:12:13,660 --> 00:12:15,940 and they start to ask questions. 267 00:12:15,940 --> 00:12:17,700 Any moment the Israelis may come 268 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:20,380 and declare that your land is state land, 269 00:12:20,380 --> 00:12:20,620 and declare that your land so, you cannot reach it, 270 00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:21,580 so, you cannot reach it, 271 00:12:21,580 --> 00:12:21,820 and then see an Israeli settlement so, you cannot reach it, 272 00:12:21,820 --> 00:12:24,700 and then see an Israeli settlement being built there, 273 00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:28,020 your piece of land, the trees that your grandfather planted. 274 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:36,540 You are not allowed to connect, for example, to the water system, 275 00:12:36,540 --> 00:12:36,780 You are not allowed to connect, for example, to the water system, while a nearby Israeli outpost 276 00:12:36,780 --> 00:12:39,340 while a nearby Israeli outpost 277 00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:43,580 immediately drowns in greenery. 278 00:12:47,020 --> 00:12:49,380 If life in the West Bank was difficult, 279 00:12:49,380 --> 00:12:49,620 If life in the West Bank daily life in Gaza was worse. 280 00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:51,980 daily life in Gaza was worse. 281 00:12:51,980 --> 00:12:56,980 Israel's siege condemned Gaza's 2.3 million Palestinians 282 00:12:56,980 --> 00:12:58,420 to slow suffocation 283 00:12:58,420 --> 00:13:03,020 in what many describe as the world's largest open-air prison. 284 00:13:03,020 --> 00:13:03,260 (INDISTINCT YELLING) in what many describe as the world's largest open-air prison. 285 00:13:03,260 --> 00:13:06,500 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 286 00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:06,700 (INDISTINCT YELLING) Every so often, Gaza would erupt 287 00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:09,340 Every so often, Gaza would erupt 288 00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:09,580 with public protest Every so often, Gaza would erupt 289 00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:12,180 with public protest or barrages of rockets, 290 00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:15,540 and Israel would come down even harder. 291 00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:33,900 DALAL IRIQAT: Can you imagine that 2.3 million civilians in Gaza 292 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:37,220 were deprived from enjoying the basic right 293 00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:37,460 were deprived of having clean water, electricity? 294 00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:40,940 of having clean water, electricity? 295 00:13:40,940 --> 00:13:44,740 Four hours of electricity a day? 296 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:50,180 Internet services. Best-case scenario - 2G services? 297 00:13:50,180 --> 00:13:50,420 Internet services. Just because Israel wants that? 298 00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:52,700 Just because Israel wants that? 299 00:13:54,540 --> 00:13:57,260 ABDALJAWAD OMAR: What was the choice of Palestinians before October 7? 300 00:13:57,260 --> 00:14:01,180 No legal respite, no diplomatic resolution, 301 00:14:01,180 --> 00:14:04,500 no horizon for a two-state solution or one-state solution, 302 00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:07,740 no efficacy for non-violence action. 303 00:14:07,740 --> 00:14:10,500 (WIND GUSTS) 304 00:14:11,460 --> 00:14:17,060 Is there a certain rationale to Israel's security argument? 305 00:14:17,060 --> 00:14:17,300 Is there a certain rationale I don't think it's rational. 306 00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:19,100 I don't think it's rational. 307 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:20,860 (CAR HORN BEEPS, TRAFFIC DRONES) 308 00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:27,140 If we provide those people with normal basic human rights, 309 00:14:27,140 --> 00:14:30,340 why would they resort to anything else? 310 00:14:30,340 --> 00:14:32,940 As long as Israel continues to occupy the Palestinians 311 00:14:32,940 --> 00:14:33,180 As long as Israel continues and deprive them and suffocate them, 312 00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:36,580 and deprive them and suffocate them, 313 00:14:36,580 --> 00:14:41,100 they should not expect but for more violence. 314 00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:44,420 Look, I once was asked some 30 years ago 315 00:14:44,420 --> 00:14:48,020 what I have been doing if I were a Palestinian, 316 00:14:48,020 --> 00:14:48,260 what I have been doing and 30 years ago 317 00:14:48,260 --> 00:14:50,140 and 30 years ago 318 00:14:50,140 --> 00:14:53,460 I was new enough in politics 319 00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:55,140 to tell the truth 320 00:14:55,140 --> 00:14:57,340 that if I were born Palestinian 321 00:14:57,340 --> 00:15:00,860 I probably would have joined one of the terror organisations. 322 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:09,220 Believe me, I fully understand 323 00:15:09,220 --> 00:15:12,100 there are things that are painful for the other side, 324 00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:15,500 and if you look at them isolated from the rest of the picture, 325 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:16,740 they sound terrible. 326 00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:20,780 Israel is living genuinely in a very tough neighbourhood. 327 00:15:20,780 --> 00:15:23,540 I once compared it to a villa in the jungle. 328 00:15:23,540 --> 00:15:24,780 Inside your villa 329 00:15:24,780 --> 00:15:28,420 you can enjoy, you know, classical music or your jacuzzi. 330 00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:32,380 Once you step...the first step you go out of your door, 331 00:15:32,380 --> 00:15:36,980 you have to be ready to pull the trigger within a split of a second 332 00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:39,220 otherwise you would not survive. 333 00:15:39,220 --> 00:15:43,700 The real challenge, when we look at it from a wider perspective, 334 00:15:43,700 --> 00:15:49,540 is you cannot avoid human pain and damage along such conflict, 335 00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:53,140 but you can think honestly about how to solve it 336 00:15:53,140 --> 00:15:53,380 but you can think honestly rather to dig deeper into the hole. 337 00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:55,780 rather to dig deeper into the hole. 338 00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:09,500 The rampage by Hamas on October 7 shook Israelis to their core. 339 00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:13,020 Within hours Israel was bombing Gaza. 340 00:16:13,020 --> 00:16:15,660 (EXPLOSIONS) 341 00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:17,780 EHUD BARAK: It was clear from day one 342 00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:19,700 that we will have to deploy 343 00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:22,660 tens of thousands of pairs of boots on the ground. 344 00:16:22,660 --> 00:16:22,900 tens of thousands of pairs of boots (GUNSHOTS) 345 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:24,580 (GUNSHOTS) 346 00:16:24,580 --> 00:16:29,740 Once the order was given to the army, then they are doing it well. 347 00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:31,540 (EXPLOSION) 348 00:16:31,540 --> 00:16:34,220 But there are significant achievements, 349 00:16:34,220 --> 00:16:37,380 even in developing tactics along the way 350 00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:38,900 to fight with the tunnels 351 00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:43,180 that were much more developed kind of system 352 00:16:43,180 --> 00:16:43,420 that were much more developed than we assessed at the beginning. 353 00:16:43,420 --> 00:16:45,980 than we assessed at the beginning. 354 00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:52,060 Since October more than 30,000 Gazans have been killed, 355 00:16:52,060 --> 00:16:55,980 two-thirds of them women and children. 356 00:16:57,460 --> 00:17:01,900 Why did Israel need to kill so many people in Gaza? 357 00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:02,140 Why did Israel need to kill We never target civilians. 358 00:17:02,140 --> 00:17:04,380 We never target civilians. 359 00:17:04,380 --> 00:17:05,820 You may not be targeting them, 360 00:17:05,820 --> 00:17:08,700 but they're dying in their tens of thousands. 361 00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:13,300 Because they live... or those that control their life 362 00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:13,540 Because they live... are these terrorists 363 00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:14,940 are these terrorists 364 00:17:14,940 --> 00:17:19,140 that are exploiting their existence. 365 00:17:19,140 --> 00:17:21,540 Israel is dropping the bombs. 366 00:17:21,540 --> 00:17:23,380 We have no other alternative. 367 00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:26,020 I try to avoid these casualties, 368 00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:27,260 and I can't. 369 00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:34,820 I was in the Israeli security cabinet 370 00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:35,100 I was in the Israeli security cabinet and I know how the Israeli army is working 371 00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:38,220 and I know how the Israeli army is working 372 00:17:38,220 --> 00:17:38,460 and I know how the Israeli army and is targeting in accordance, 373 00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:40,420 and is targeting in accordance, 374 00:17:40,420 --> 00:17:40,660 every target is getting the approval and is targeting in accordance, 375 00:17:40,660 --> 00:17:45,580 every target is getting the approval of the Justice Ministry. 376 00:17:45,580 --> 00:17:50,140 And if the army can prove that this is a legitimate target, 377 00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:50,980 it is. 378 00:17:50,980 --> 00:17:52,620 (EXPLOSION) 379 00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:57,940 AVI DICHTER: Gaza strip - it's 350 square kilometres. 380 00:17:57,940 --> 00:17:58,180 AVI DICHTER: Gaza strip - That's it. 381 00:17:58,180 --> 00:17:59,220 That's it. 382 00:17:59,220 --> 00:17:59,460 All in all, That's it. 383 00:17:59,460 --> 00:18:01,860 All in all, there are about 40,000 terrorists, 384 00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:02,100 All in all, paid as terrorists, 385 00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:03,340 paid as terrorists, 386 00:18:03,340 --> 00:18:04,860 trained as terrorists. 387 00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:15,260 You have to take into account the surrounding of those terrorists, 388 00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:19,260 it's many, many thousands, 389 00:18:19,260 --> 00:18:20,860 tens of thousands of terrorists. 390 00:18:20,860 --> 00:18:21,100 Mr Ayalon, tens of thousands of terrorists. 391 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:23,340 Mr Ayalon, one thing I don't understand 392 00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:27,780 is why does the most powerful military in the Middle East, Israel, 393 00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:31,220 backed by the most powerful military the world's ever seen, 394 00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:31,460 backed by the most powerful military the United States, 395 00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:33,100 the United States, 396 00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:35,460 need to kill so many children. 397 00:18:36,540 --> 00:18:38,220 We don't need to. 398 00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:40,140 But you are. 399 00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:43,740 There was no war like this ever fought. 400 00:18:43,740 --> 00:18:43,980 There was no war like this (EXPLOSION) 401 00:18:43,980 --> 00:18:47,500 (EXPLOSION) 402 00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:49,300 When we fight Hamas... 403 00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:50,100 (ROCKET WHOOSHES) 404 00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:51,100 (EXPLOSION) 405 00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:56,220 ..it is the most populated battlefield ever fought 406 00:18:56,220 --> 00:18:58,140 in the history of wars... 407 00:18:58,140 --> 00:18:59,700 (EXPLOSION) 408 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:04,900 ..and, in order to achieve our military goals, 409 00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:05,140 ..and, in order to achieve we have to hit military targets. 410 00:19:05,140 --> 00:19:07,860 we have to hit military targets. 411 00:19:07,860 --> 00:19:08,100 But in a populated area in which we are fighting in Gaza, we have to hit military targets. 412 00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:14,460 But in a populated area in which we are fighting in Gaza, 413 00:19:14,460 --> 00:19:18,260 it is almost impossible to hit a military target 414 00:19:18,260 --> 00:19:21,980 without killing or hitting civilians. 415 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:29,500 Hamas deliberately are using civil targets, civilian targets - 416 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:29,740 Hamas deliberately are using schools, hospitals, 417 00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:31,580 schools, hospitals, 418 00:19:31,580 --> 00:19:31,780 schools, hospitals, UN institutions - 419 00:19:31,780 --> 00:19:33,660 UN institutions - 420 00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:38,060 in order to place 421 00:19:38,060 --> 00:19:40,700 military targets 422 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:44,660 in civilians' institutions, 423 00:19:44,660 --> 00:19:44,900 and even according in civilians' institutions, 424 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:49,940 and even according to international law 425 00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:54,660 we have the right to hit the military installation 426 00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:54,900 we have the right to hit if it is used deliberately. 427 00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,900 if it is used deliberately. 428 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,700 So, Hamas is doing everything 429 00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:00,940 in order for us to kill or to use So, Hamas is doing everything 430 00:20:00,940 --> 00:20:07,820 in order for us to kill or to use their people as a human shield. 431 00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:08,060 in order for us to kill or to use I don't think that anyone 432 00:20:08,060 --> 00:20:09,380 I don't think that anyone 433 00:20:09,380 --> 00:20:12,420 made a deliberate decision to kill children. 434 00:20:12,420 --> 00:20:13,740 I'm not saying it was a deliberate decision. 435 00:20:13,740 --> 00:20:16,780 I'm asking why did the most powerful army kill so many children? 436 00:20:16,780 --> 00:20:20,420 Look... No, I want to describe it in a different way. 437 00:20:20,420 --> 00:20:24,140 So, Israel called upon the population 438 00:20:24,140 --> 00:20:24,380 to leave the area So, Israel called upon the population 439 00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:25,620 to leave the area 440 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:28,820 for some two or three weeks repeatedly. 441 00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:34,420 YEHUDA SHAUL: That we are told that the IDF 442 00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:36,460 is doing everything to avoid civilian casualties 443 00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:36,700 is doing everything is a blunt lie. 444 00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:38,380 is a blunt lie. 445 00:20:38,380 --> 00:20:40,380 Straight lie. 446 00:20:40,380 --> 00:20:43,460 It's a hard statement to say about my own army, 447 00:20:43,460 --> 00:20:44,740 but it's the truth. 448 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:53,340 Yehuda Shaul, a former Israeli army commander, 449 00:20:53,340 --> 00:20:55,340 says Israeli military strategy 450 00:20:55,340 --> 00:20:58,300 has been driven for the past 15 years 451 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:04,100 by a doctrine of deterrence through disproportionate destruction. 452 00:21:06,260 --> 00:21:11,740 Theoretically, it's possible to bomb thousands of legitimate targets. 453 00:21:11,740 --> 00:21:14,260 What matters is the devil is in the details. 454 00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:17,380 We don't have enough evidence 455 00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:20,940 coming from soldiers coming out of Gaza in this war yet, 456 00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:21,180 coming from soldiers but we know from past operations, 457 00:21:21,180 --> 00:21:23,620 but we know from past operations, 458 00:21:23,620 --> 00:21:26,020 from before October 7, 459 00:21:26,020 --> 00:21:26,260 in terms of how from before October 7, 460 00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:28,660 in terms of how the IDF fights in Gaza. 461 00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:32,980 We are told that every target we strike 462 00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:36,700 is a legitimate target under international humanitarian law, 463 00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:39,580 and it's based on, you know... 464 00:21:40,540 --> 00:21:43,420 ..clear-cut, you know, double-checked, 465 00:21:43,420 --> 00:21:43,660 ..clear-cut, you know, verified intelligence. 466 00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:45,020 verified intelligence. 467 00:21:45,020 --> 00:21:45,260 And when we strike, verified intelligence. 468 00:21:45,260 --> 00:21:48,500 And when we strike, we do it in a surgical manner, 469 00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:51,420 in a way... while taking all precautions 470 00:21:51,420 --> 00:21:51,660 in a way... to avoid, you know...to minimise 471 00:21:51,660 --> 00:21:54,660 to avoid, you know...to minimise 472 00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:58,420 the civilian collateral damage and casualties, yeah? 473 00:22:01,740 --> 00:22:03,780 But that is not the case. 474 00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:05,660 Then the question is proportionality. 475 00:22:06,620 --> 00:22:09,420 But what about a house of a militant? 476 00:22:10,740 --> 00:22:14,860 A target that was very common in many operations before in Gaza. 477 00:22:14,860 --> 00:22:19,140 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-, 6-storey building that you will wipe out 478 00:22:19,140 --> 00:22:20,820 with a half one-tonne bomb 479 00:22:20,820 --> 00:22:23,540 just because on the second floor, the flat to the left, 480 00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:23,780 just because on the second floor, a Hamas militant lives. 481 00:22:23,780 --> 00:22:25,340 a Hamas militant lives. 482 00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:29,460 (EXPLOSION) 483 00:22:29,460 --> 00:22:32,380 There's no way this is a legitimate target under IHL. 484 00:22:33,340 --> 00:22:37,060 I have no doubt that after October 7, yeah, 485 00:22:37,060 --> 00:22:41,220 they've loosened some of the restrains, some of the restrictions 486 00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:41,460 they've loosened some of the they had from previous wars. 487 00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:43,140 they had from previous wars. 488 00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:43,380 What exactly? they had from previous wars. 489 00:22:43,380 --> 00:22:46,380 What exactly? We don't really know yet. 490 00:22:46,380 --> 00:22:48,700 But all what you need, for example... 491 00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:51,500 ..is to decide 492 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:56,220 that the amount of civilians you're allowed to take out for each strike 493 00:22:56,220 --> 00:22:56,460 that the amount of civilians you're goes higher than before, 494 00:22:56,460 --> 00:22:58,060 goes higher than before, 495 00:22:58,060 --> 00:23:01,700 and you lower the rank of a Hamas operative 496 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:04,020 that you're allowed to strike. 497 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:06,420 So, if before, let's say, 498 00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:08,260 for a company officer in Hamas, 499 00:23:08,260 --> 00:23:11,380 you were allowed to take out five civilians, 500 00:23:11,380 --> 00:23:13,100 hypothetically speaking... 501 00:23:14,060 --> 00:23:17,900 ..and now, in this war, for every rank-and-file guy in Hamas, 502 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:21,300 you're allowed to take out, ie, to kill, 503 00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:22,980 15 civilians... 504 00:23:24,380 --> 00:23:28,380 ..you know, a move like this can explain a lot of what we see. 505 00:23:30,140 --> 00:23:35,380 Was there a viable alternative to all this, to the scale of the killing? 506 00:23:36,620 --> 00:23:39,940 Israel's famous for its targeted assassinations. 507 00:23:39,940 --> 00:23:41,940 I mean, you yourself dressed as a woman, famously, 508 00:23:41,940 --> 00:23:44,780 and went into Beirut and met up with Mossad 509 00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:47,260 and went and killed a Palestinian leader. 510 00:23:47,260 --> 00:23:49,500 Israel's done that over the years. 511 00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:53,780 Why couldn't they have tried to strategically target Hamas leaders 512 00:23:53,780 --> 00:23:56,740 rather than kill those thousands of children? 513 00:23:56,740 --> 00:23:56,980 rather than kill I never deluded myself 514 00:23:56,980 --> 00:23:59,620 I never deluded myself 515 00:23:59,620 --> 00:23:59,860 to believe that by killing any I never deluded myself 516 00:23:59,860 --> 00:24:04,420 to believe that by killing any individual, you solve the problem. 517 00:24:04,420 --> 00:24:08,380 You give them a blow, and they will recover, in a way. 518 00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:08,620 You give them a blow, It just delay the real decision. 519 00:24:08,620 --> 00:24:11,900 It just delay the real decision. 520 00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:13,540 Real decisions at the end 521 00:24:13,540 --> 00:24:17,140 are not about how to kill mosquitoes more effectively, 522 00:24:17,140 --> 00:24:17,380 are not about how to kill mosquitoes it's about how to drain the swamp. 523 00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:19,140 it's about how to drain the swamp. 524 00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:21,020 You've worked for Mossad. 525 00:24:21,020 --> 00:24:22,580 Probably no other country on Earth 526 00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:24,100 can target its enemies as successfully. 527 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:24,340 can target its enemies Against terror, yes. 528 00:24:24,340 --> 00:24:25,780 Against terror, yes. 529 00:24:25,780 --> 00:24:27,980 Mossad has been into Dubai... 530 00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:29,380 Yes. ..as you know, 531 00:24:29,380 --> 00:24:31,900 and they have killed and targeted Hamas leaders. 532 00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:33,340 They can do it in Beirut. 533 00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:33,580 Yeah. They can do it in Beirut. 534 00:24:33,580 --> 00:24:35,420 Yeah. They can do it in Dubai. 535 00:24:35,420 --> 00:24:35,660 Yeah. Wouldn't an alternative 536 00:24:35,660 --> 00:24:37,260 Wouldn't an alternative 537 00:24:37,260 --> 00:24:41,460 to thousands and thousands of women and children being killed... 538 00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:46,460 They are hiding amongst these civilians now. 539 00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:48,700 You asked is there an alternative? So, what is... 540 00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:52,020 Wouldn't an alternative be to get the Hamas leadership 541 00:24:52,020 --> 00:24:56,220 who were behind this whole plan, like Yahya Sinwar, 542 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:57,500 and to have done to him 543 00:24:57,500 --> 00:25:00,740 what Mossad and Israel has done to other Hamas leaders over the years 544 00:25:00,740 --> 00:25:00,980 what Mossad and Israel has done to and not kill thousands of civilians? 545 00:25:00,980 --> 00:25:03,220 and not kill thousands of civilians? 546 00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:03,420 It's not just about one leader, and not kill thousands of civilians? 547 00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:05,660 It's not just about one leader, 548 00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:07,300 it's about this organisation 549 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:11,100 that his vision or ideology 550 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:11,340 that his vision or ideology is to kill Israelis, is to kill Jews. 551 00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:13,500 is to kill Israelis, is to kill Jews. 552 00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:14,940 This is where we are standing. 553 00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:19,100 And, unfortunately, they turned it into a regime. 554 00:25:24,620 --> 00:25:28,620 This is Benjamin Netanyahu's war, 555 00:25:28,620 --> 00:25:32,540 Israel's longest-serving prime minister. 556 00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:32,780 Israel's Throughout his career 557 00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:34,060 Throughout his career 558 00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:39,140 Netanyahu has tried to kill the idea of a Palestinian state. 559 00:25:43,740 --> 00:25:45,980 Do you trust Benjamin Netanyahu? 560 00:25:46,940 --> 00:25:48,140 Never. 561 00:25:48,140 --> 00:25:49,180 (LAUGHS) 562 00:25:49,180 --> 00:25:52,500 Can there be peace while Benjamin Netanyahu is the leader here? 563 00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:52,740 Can there be peace while Benjamin Uh... No. 564 00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:54,500 Uh... No. 565 00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:55,860 No. 566 00:25:55,860 --> 00:25:56,100 Can the world trust No. 567 00:25:56,100 --> 00:25:58,500 Can the world trust Benjamin Netanyahu? 568 00:25:58,500 --> 00:25:58,780 I don't think that anyone can trust him. Can the world trust Benjamin Netanyahu? 569 00:25:58,780 --> 00:26:01,620 I don't think that anyone can trust him. 570 00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:01,900 I don't think that anyone can trust him. Basically, he lies to everyone, and no-one trusts him. 571 00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:05,460 Basically, he lies to everyone, and no-one trusts him. 572 00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:10,100 (LIVELY MUSIC PLAYS) 573 00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:11,660 Just over a year ago 574 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:13,140 he managed to cobble together 575 00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:16,940 the most right-wing coalition Israel's ever seen. 576 00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:18,860 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 577 00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:23,860 Netanyahu awarded senior cabinet portfolios to two extremists - 578 00:26:23,860 --> 00:26:27,020 Bezalel Smotrich, now the Finance Minister, 579 00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:28,580 and Itamar Ben-Gvir, 580 00:26:28,580 --> 00:26:30,460 Minister of National Security. 581 00:26:30,460 --> 00:26:30,660 (INDISTINCT YELLING) Minister of National Security. 582 00:26:30,660 --> 00:26:33,220 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 583 00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:33,460 (INDISTINCT YELLING) Both ministers live in illegal settlements. 584 00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:35,980 Both ministers live in illegal settlements. 585 00:26:38,940 --> 00:26:40,700 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 586 00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:43,180 Ben-Gvir has criminal convictions 587 00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:43,420 for racist incitement and supporting Ben-Gvir has criminal convictions 588 00:26:43,420 --> 00:26:48,220 for racist incitement and supporting a Zionist terrorist group. 589 00:26:48,220 --> 00:26:53,100 He's been condemned by the US and the EU for using racist rhetoric. 590 00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:53,340 He's been condemned by the US (SPEAKS IN HEBREW) 591 00:26:53,340 --> 00:26:54,980 (SPEAKS IN HEBREW) 592 00:26:54,980 --> 00:26:59,500 Smotrich denies the very existence of the Palestinian people. 593 00:27:02,860 --> 00:27:05,500 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 594 00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:10,340 These two men are now accused of driving Netanyahu's Gaza policy, 595 00:27:10,340 --> 00:27:14,820 pushing the agenda that would force Palestinians off their lands. 596 00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:20,940 I think Israel's agenda, the end goal, is to annex the land. 597 00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:25,140 It doesn't take a genius to come up with that conclusion. 598 00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:25,380 It doesn't take a genius Here's Israel in 1948... 599 00:27:25,380 --> 00:27:27,140 Here's Israel in 1948... 600 00:27:27,140 --> 00:27:27,380 You know, Netanyahu himself Here's Israel in 1948... 601 00:27:27,380 --> 00:27:29,900 You know, Netanyahu himself went to the UN in September 602 00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:31,980 and he showed that map from the river to the sea. 603 00:27:31,980 --> 00:27:34,220 ..surrounded by a hostile Arab world. 604 00:27:34,220 --> 00:27:34,460 What does that mean to anybody? ..surrounded by a hostile Arab world. 605 00:27:34,460 --> 00:27:36,140 What does that mean to anybody? 606 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,580 He doesn't see Palestine. 607 00:27:39,580 --> 00:27:41,220 He doesn't see Palestinians. 608 00:27:41,220 --> 00:27:41,420 He doesn't see Palestinians. The whole Middle East changes. 609 00:27:41,420 --> 00:27:44,220 The whole Middle East changes. 610 00:27:44,220 --> 00:27:47,260 Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, the two racists, 611 00:27:47,260 --> 00:27:47,500 Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, are messianic guys 612 00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:49,740 are messianic guys 613 00:27:49,740 --> 00:27:51,180 that seems to be... 614 00:27:51,180 --> 00:27:54,300 ..to have a very strong leverage on Bibi. 615 00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:59,500 They want to turn it into a major religious war 616 00:27:59,500 --> 00:27:59,740 They want to turn it between Israel and the Islam. 617 00:27:59,740 --> 00:28:01,820 between Israel and the Islam. 618 00:28:01,820 --> 00:28:02,980 Are they dangerous? 619 00:28:02,980 --> 00:28:04,820 Sure. Sure they are dangerous. 620 00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:10,060 How powerful are Ben-Gvir and Smotrich? 621 00:28:10,060 --> 00:28:11,980 And what do you think of them? 622 00:28:11,980 --> 00:28:12,180 I see them as terrorists And what do you think of them? 623 00:28:12,180 --> 00:28:13,900 I see them as terrorists 624 00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:17,700 and as Jewish messianics. 625 00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:17,940 and as Jewish messianics. They represent only a small minority within the Israeli society, 626 00:28:17,940 --> 00:28:22,780 They represent only a small minority within the Israeli society, 627 00:28:22,780 --> 00:28:27,820 but they get their power because of, um...our coalition system. 628 00:28:27,820 --> 00:28:28,060 but they get their power because But can I just check something? 629 00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:29,420 But can I just check something? 630 00:28:29,420 --> 00:28:32,420 Are you calling the Minister for National Security 631 00:28:32,420 --> 00:28:34,700 and the Minister for Finance in Israel... 632 00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:35,740 ..are you calling them terrorists? 633 00:28:35,740 --> 00:28:36,940 Of course. 634 00:28:36,940 --> 00:28:38,020 They are. 635 00:28:38,020 --> 00:28:39,780 Is the brutal reality 636 00:28:39,780 --> 00:28:40,020 that Benjamin Netanyahu Is the brutal reality 637 00:28:40,020 --> 00:28:43,180 that Benjamin Netanyahu wants to continue this war 638 00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:43,420 that Benjamin Netanyahu for his own political survival? 639 00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:45,220 for his own political survival? 640 00:28:46,380 --> 00:28:49,980 Look, I cannot penetrate his soul and tell you for sure, 641 00:28:49,980 --> 00:28:50,220 Look, I cannot penetrate his soul but it's clear 642 00:28:50,220 --> 00:28:51,580 but it's clear 643 00:28:51,580 --> 00:28:54,420 that he acts as if 644 00:28:54,420 --> 00:28:54,660 the main objective of this whole event that he acts as if 645 00:28:54,660 --> 00:28:57,820 the main objective of this whole event 646 00:28:57,820 --> 00:28:59,300 is his survival. 647 00:28:59,300 --> 00:28:59,500 is his survival. (SPEAKS IN HEBREW) 648 00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:01,020 (SPEAKS IN HEBREW) 649 00:29:01,020 --> 00:29:04,980 He understands that if fighting will have a pause 650 00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:08,660 for six weeks or two times six weeks, 651 00:29:08,660 --> 00:29:12,740 the Israeli public will demand accountability, 652 00:29:12,740 --> 00:29:12,980 the Israeli public in spite of the fact that 653 00:29:12,980 --> 00:29:14,220 in spite of the fact that 654 00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:18,020 there is no word in Hebrew for accountability. 655 00:29:18,020 --> 00:29:20,340 It was not needed in our culture. 656 00:29:20,340 --> 00:29:22,740 But the public will demand it, 657 00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:26,180 and he might lose his role as the Prime Minister. 658 00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:29,740 The Prime Minister's office did not respond 659 00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:29,980 The Prime Minister's office when we put these allegations to him. 660 00:29:29,980 --> 00:29:32,020 when we put these allegations to him. 661 00:29:32,020 --> 00:29:33,940 (SPEAKS IN HEBREW) 662 00:29:33,940 --> 00:29:34,180 Mr Ben-Gvir and Mr Smotrich (SPEAKS IN HEBREW) 663 00:29:34,180 --> 00:29:38,260 Mr Ben-Gvir and Mr Smotrich also failed to respond. 664 00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:43,540 It now appears that Netanyahu wanted to sow seeds of division 665 00:29:43,540 --> 00:29:46,180 between the hardliners who ruled Gaza 666 00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:50,100 and the more conciliatory Palestinian Authority running the West Bank. 667 00:29:51,060 --> 00:29:53,540 AMI AYALON: We did something very, very simple. 668 00:29:53,540 --> 00:29:55,180 We did everything 669 00:29:55,180 --> 00:30:00,020 in order to make sure that Hamas will go on controlling Gaza 670 00:30:00,020 --> 00:30:04,140 and Palestinian Authority will control the West Bank 671 00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:06,180 so they will fight each other. 672 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:10,340 Netanyahu allowed Qatar to give massive amounts of cash 673 00:30:10,340 --> 00:30:10,580 Netanyahu allowed Qatar to Hamas in Gaza. 674 00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:12,260 to Hamas in Gaza. 675 00:30:12,260 --> 00:30:16,780 So, what we did with the permission of our prime minister 676 00:30:16,780 --> 00:30:24,380 is to let Qatar to transfer a huge amount of money in cash, 677 00:30:24,380 --> 00:30:24,620 is to let Qatar to transfer probably more than $1.4 billion, 678 00:30:24,620 --> 00:30:29,860 probably more than $1.4 billion, 679 00:30:29,860 --> 00:30:31,740 and to make sure 680 00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:31,980 that they will be able to send, and to make sure 681 00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:36,580 that they will be able to send, you know, people to work in Israel 682 00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:41,140 and to achieve or to get intelligence if they need. 683 00:30:41,140 --> 00:30:44,500 By doing it, we increase the power of Hamas. 684 00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:44,740 By doing it, That served Netanyahu, 685 00:30:44,740 --> 00:30:46,300 That served Netanyahu, 686 00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:46,540 who wanted to avoid any discussion That served Netanyahu, 687 00:30:46,540 --> 00:30:49,900 who wanted to avoid any discussion of a two-state solution. 688 00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:53,980 So, are you saying Benjamin Netanyahu deliberately boosted Hamas 689 00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:56,340 to try to prevent a Palestinian state? 690 00:30:56,340 --> 00:30:57,100 Yeah, sure. 691 00:30:57,100 --> 00:31:01,620 He deliberately and systematically, even told on record - 692 00:31:01,620 --> 00:31:07,540 "Whoever wants to avoid the threat of a two-state solution 693 00:31:07,540 --> 00:31:13,180 "has to support my policy of paying protection money to the Hamas." 694 00:31:14,940 --> 00:31:16,500 Netanyahu maintains 695 00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:21,100 the Qatar money was to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe. 696 00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:21,340 the Qatar money was to avoid Having helped to build up Hamas, 697 00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:23,580 Having helped to build up Hamas, 698 00:31:23,580 --> 00:31:26,540 Netanyahu has now vowed to destroy it. 699 00:31:27,740 --> 00:31:29,500 He fed the beast, 700 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:31,300 and it exploded in our face. 701 00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:31,540 If you base your national-security strategy solely on force, and it exploded in our face. 702 00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:37,900 If you base your national-security strategy solely on force, 703 00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:40,380 then you need to win 24-7 forever. 704 00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:43,940 Is it possible that Hamas CAN be destroyed? 705 00:31:43,940 --> 00:31:48,300 I don't believe you can destroy Hamas with military force alone. 706 00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:48,540 I don't believe you can destroy The issue is this, OK? 707 00:31:48,540 --> 00:31:51,420 The issue is this, OK? 708 00:31:51,420 --> 00:31:54,060 If you want... 709 00:31:55,740 --> 00:31:57,940 ..to destroy Hamas 710 00:31:57,940 --> 00:31:59,860 in Gaza, 711 00:31:59,860 --> 00:32:01,780 what you will have to do 712 00:32:01,780 --> 00:32:02,020 is forcibly displace more than what you will have to do 713 00:32:02,020 --> 00:32:06,700 is forcibly displace more than two million Palestinians into Sinai. 714 00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:06,940 is forcibly displace more than Go house by house, corner by corner. 715 00:32:06,940 --> 00:32:08,980 Go house by house, corner by corner. 716 00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:11,420 Wipe out entire Gaza above ground. 717 00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:17,260 And then go for months underground, tunnel by tunnel. 718 00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:18,020 Yeah? 719 00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:22,220 Suffer hundreds of casualties, if not thousands, ultimately. 720 00:32:22,220 --> 00:32:25,300 And maybe after a few years there won't be Hamas in Gaza. 721 00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:26,780 But if you've done THAT... 722 00:32:28,060 --> 00:32:30,340 ..there's going to be Hamas everywhere else. 723 00:32:30,340 --> 00:32:30,580 ..there's going to be Hamas Can Hamas be destroyed? 724 00:32:30,580 --> 00:32:32,340 Can Hamas be destroyed? 725 00:32:32,340 --> 00:32:32,580 Hamas as a military organisation Can Hamas be destroyed? 726 00:32:32,580 --> 00:32:36,380 Hamas as a military organisation will be destroyed. 727 00:32:37,340 --> 00:32:39,860 We are in a war in Gaza. 728 00:32:39,860 --> 00:32:43,540 We put two main goals in front of the military 729 00:32:43,540 --> 00:32:45,540 and in front of the security organisations. 730 00:32:45,540 --> 00:32:48,860 First, to destroy all military infrastructure 731 00:32:48,860 --> 00:32:49,100 First, to destroy of Hamas and PIJ in Gaza Strip. 732 00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:52,580 of Hamas and PIJ in Gaza Strip. 733 00:32:52,580 --> 00:32:56,020 And the second goal - to topple the regime of Hamas 734 00:32:56,020 --> 00:32:59,060 from continuing ruling and running the Gaza Strip. 735 00:32:59,060 --> 00:32:59,300 from continuing ruling and running These were the two main goals, 736 00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:00,900 These were the two main goals, 737 00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:06,100 and the main target was to release all hostages 738 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:10,380 at that time we knew that were taken into the Gaza Strip. 739 00:33:10,380 --> 00:33:13,340 So, they can hide in tunnels. 740 00:33:13,340 --> 00:33:15,180 We shall find them there. 741 00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:17,660 They can hide in houses. We shall find them there. 742 00:33:17,660 --> 00:33:19,900 It's not going to be stopped 743 00:33:19,900 --> 00:33:23,980 up until we are going to destroy the military infrastructure of both 744 00:33:23,980 --> 00:33:24,220 up until we are going to destroy in Gaza Strip. 745 00:33:24,220 --> 00:33:25,460 in Gaza Strip. 746 00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:25,700 How long do you think Israel's war in Gaza Strip. 747 00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:28,860 How long do you think Israel's war against Hamas will last? 748 00:33:28,860 --> 00:33:29,100 How long do you think Israel's war How long it will take? 749 00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:30,860 How long it will take? 750 00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:35,220 It may take a year or two. 751 00:33:35,220 --> 00:33:40,620 We stand with Israel. 752 00:33:42,020 --> 00:33:45,500 And we will make sure it has what it needs to take care of its citizens, 753 00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:49,020 defend itself and respond to this attack. 754 00:33:49,020 --> 00:33:51,540 What would happen if President Biden said, 755 00:33:51,540 --> 00:33:54,980 "Thousands and thousands of civilians have been killed in Gaza, 756 00:33:54,980 --> 00:33:56,700 "the bombing's indiscriminate, 757 00:33:56,700 --> 00:33:59,980 "as of tomorrow I'm cutting off the supply of bombs"? 758 00:33:59,980 --> 00:34:00,220 "as of tomorrow The war would end. 759 00:34:00,220 --> 00:34:01,620 The war would end. 760 00:34:02,580 --> 00:34:04,340 That would be the end of this war. 761 00:34:04,340 --> 00:34:07,100 Israel cannot wage it without these bombs. 762 00:34:12,620 --> 00:34:16,580 The role of the US has been, as usual, 763 00:34:16,580 --> 00:34:16,820 The role of the US has been, as usual, full-fledged support for Israel, 764 00:34:16,820 --> 00:34:20,060 full-fledged support for Israel, 765 00:34:20,060 --> 00:34:23,380 backing in the Security Council, 766 00:34:23,380 --> 00:34:26,260 supply of arms, 767 00:34:26,260 --> 00:34:29,420 total complicity and responsibility 768 00:34:29,420 --> 00:34:31,980 for all of Israel's behaviour 769 00:34:31,980 --> 00:34:34,460 and the bombing that is indiscriminate, 770 00:34:34,460 --> 00:34:36,100 as the President said, 771 00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:37,540 and at the same time 772 00:34:37,540 --> 00:34:41,060 a bit of public finger-wagging. 773 00:34:41,060 --> 00:34:44,420 (GRAND MILITARY MUSIC PLAYS) 774 00:34:44,420 --> 00:34:46,300 Since 1946 775 00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:47,780 the US has provided 776 00:34:47,780 --> 00:34:52,460 more than $200 billion in military aid to Israel. 777 00:34:56,860 --> 00:35:00,300 In the 1967 Six-Day War 778 00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:04,460 Israel's then newly appointed defence minister, Moshe Dayan, 779 00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:07,580 took personal command of Israeli forces 780 00:35:07,580 --> 00:35:10,420 as they captured East Jerusalem. 781 00:35:10,420 --> 00:35:12,500 (BELL TOLLS) 782 00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:15,620 (BIRDS TWITTER) 783 00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:18,860 (PRAYER OVER PA SYSTEM) 784 00:35:18,860 --> 00:35:20,820 Moshe Dayan once said, 785 00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:24,740 "Our American friends offer us money, arms and advice. 786 00:35:24,740 --> 00:35:26,980 "We take the money, we take the arms, 787 00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:29,380 "but we decline the advice." 788 00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:32,060 Those words have echoed down through the decades. 789 00:35:32,060 --> 00:35:32,300 Those words have echoed Now, an emboldened Israel 790 00:35:32,300 --> 00:35:34,060 Now, an emboldened Israel 791 00:35:34,060 --> 00:35:34,300 has flattened vast sections of Gaza Now, an emboldened Israel 792 00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:38,580 has flattened vast sections of Gaza with American bombs, 793 00:35:38,580 --> 00:35:41,500 declining the softly spoken advice 794 00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:43,540 of President Biden. 795 00:35:43,540 --> 00:35:43,780 The State of Israel was born to be of President Biden. 796 00:35:43,780 --> 00:35:47,740 The State of Israel was born to be a safe place for the Jewish people. 797 00:35:47,740 --> 00:35:51,540 President Biden is a lifelong supporter of Israel. 798 00:35:51,540 --> 00:35:56,420 I've long said if Israel didn't exist, we'd have to invent it. 799 00:35:56,420 --> 00:36:00,220 The supporters of Israel in America, of course, would say, 800 00:36:00,220 --> 00:36:02,460 "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. 801 00:36:02,460 --> 00:36:05,740 "It's in our strategic interests to support it." 802 00:36:05,740 --> 00:36:05,980 "It's in our strategic interests Is that a fair argument? 803 00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:08,860 Is that a fair argument? 804 00:36:08,860 --> 00:36:13,620 Well, I don't know of any democracy 805 00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:17,100 that for more than half a century 806 00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:21,700 has deprived millions of the people under its control 807 00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:21,940 has deprived millions of the people of basic civil rights 808 00:36:21,940 --> 00:36:23,660 of basic civil rights 809 00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:23,900 based on their inborn of basic civil rights 810 00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:26,700 based on their inborn characteristics. 811 00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:26,940 based on their inborn That is the case here in Israel, 812 00:36:26,940 --> 00:36:28,940 That is the case here in Israel, 813 00:36:28,940 --> 00:36:33,300 and I don't think it's defensible 814 00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:35,020 under any definition of democracy 815 00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:37,500 to call this place a democracy. 816 00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:42,700 EHUD BARAK: Israel cannot fight this regional war 817 00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:45,340 without having close relationship with the Americans. 818 00:36:45,340 --> 00:36:45,580 without having close relationship We need their support, 819 00:36:45,580 --> 00:36:46,820 We need their support, 820 00:36:46,820 --> 00:36:50,940 not just in munitions that we do not produce in enough pace 821 00:36:50,940 --> 00:36:55,100 to supply the needs of such a regional war, 822 00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:59,540 but we need them also to protect us in the UN Security Council. 823 00:36:59,540 --> 00:37:02,220 We needed them at the beginning of the crisis 824 00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:02,460 We needed them to deter Iran from getting involved 825 00:37:02,460 --> 00:37:05,260 to deter Iran from getting involved 826 00:37:05,260 --> 00:37:08,580 or from activating Hezbollah against us. 827 00:37:08,580 --> 00:37:11,020 And we will need them even in The Hague 828 00:37:11,020 --> 00:37:11,260 And we will need them to block the prospect 829 00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:14,460 to block the prospect 830 00:37:14,460 --> 00:37:16,900 that Israeli commanders or even political leaders 831 00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:20,740 might find themselves at a criminal court in The Hague 832 00:37:20,740 --> 00:37:20,980 might find themselves or demanded to be brought. 833 00:37:20,980 --> 00:37:22,540 or demanded to be brought. 834 00:37:22,540 --> 00:37:25,940 Only America can help us to avoid all this. 835 00:37:25,940 --> 00:37:32,540 Pro-Israeli lobby groups in the US wield immense power. 836 00:37:32,540 --> 00:37:35,060 NATHAN THRALL: Every politician in the United States knows 837 00:37:35,060 --> 00:37:39,700 that they can pay a major price with their jobs 838 00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:39,940 that they can pay a major price for not toeing the line, 839 00:37:39,940 --> 00:37:42,180 for not toeing the line, 840 00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:44,380 and the level 841 00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:46,900 of devastation that we are seeing now 842 00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:47,140 of devastation has so horrified the world 843 00:37:47,140 --> 00:37:49,980 has so horrified the world 844 00:37:49,980 --> 00:37:52,980 and has so horrified the American public 845 00:37:52,980 --> 00:37:53,260 and has so horrified the American public that now we have half of the people who voted for Biden 846 00:37:53,260 --> 00:37:57,180 that now we have half of the people who voted for Biden 847 00:37:57,180 --> 00:38:01,460 saying that Israel is perpetrating a genocide in Gaza. 848 00:38:01,460 --> 00:38:04,780 JOE BIDEN: Israel also has a fundamental responsibility 849 00:38:04,780 --> 00:38:07,100 to protect innocent civilians in Gaza. 850 00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:07,340 to protect innocent civilians (APPLAUSE) 851 00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:08,900 (APPLAUSE) 852 00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:12,860 And now for Biden, for the very first time, 853 00:38:12,860 --> 00:38:16,580 there is talk that an American president 854 00:38:16,580 --> 00:38:22,300 could lose an election over being too pro-Israel. 855 00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:22,540 could lose an election It's unheard of. 856 00:38:22,540 --> 00:38:24,300 It's unheard of. 857 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:24,540 And, so, we have this enormous American hypocrisy It's unheard of. 858 00:38:24,540 --> 00:38:28,940 And, so, we have this enormous American hypocrisy 859 00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:29,180 of supplying the bombs this enormous American hypocrisy 860 00:38:29,180 --> 00:38:31,020 of supplying the bombs 861 00:38:31,020 --> 00:38:31,260 of supplying the bombs are being used indiscriminately 862 00:38:31,260 --> 00:38:34,660 that we say are being used indiscriminately 863 00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:34,900 and expressing sympathy are being used indiscriminately 864 00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:37,820 and expressing sympathy 865 00:38:37,820 --> 00:38:41,460 for the people who are being killed by our bombs. 866 00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:45,260 American criticism has intensified, 867 00:38:45,260 --> 00:38:48,380 with Washington repeatedly expressing frustration 868 00:38:48,380 --> 00:38:50,900 at the impact of the war on civilians, 869 00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:53,260 but the bombing has continued. 870 00:38:54,780 --> 00:38:59,500 If it's found later that war crimes were committed by Israel, 871 00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:02,580 is the United States complicit in those war crimes? 872 00:39:02,580 --> 00:39:04,900 100%. 873 00:39:07,860 --> 00:39:11,780 As the US continues to supply Israel with munitions, 874 00:39:11,780 --> 00:39:12,020 As the US continues it's now dropping food aid to Gazans 875 00:39:12,020 --> 00:39:15,020 it's now dropping food aid to Gazans 876 00:39:15,020 --> 00:39:19,540 amid warnings that hunger has reached catastrophic levels. 877 00:39:19,540 --> 00:39:23,420 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 878 00:39:23,420 --> 00:39:23,660 Children are already (INDISTINCT YELLING) 879 00:39:23,660 --> 00:39:27,100 Children are already dying of starvation, 880 00:39:27,100 --> 00:39:27,340 Children are already and the UN says famine is imminent. 881 00:39:27,340 --> 00:39:30,420 and the UN says famine is imminent. 882 00:39:30,420 --> 00:39:32,940 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 883 00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:35,820 (PRAYER OVER PA SYSTEM) 884 00:39:35,820 --> 00:39:37,260 AMIRA HASS: There is this country 885 00:39:37,260 --> 00:39:39,660 and there are two peoples who live in it, 886 00:39:39,660 --> 00:39:43,220 and this country belongs to the two peoples. 887 00:39:43,220 --> 00:39:49,460 But any plan to expel or to get rid of one of the two peoples 888 00:39:49,460 --> 00:39:49,700 will result in even more disasters. But any plan to expel or to get rid of one of the two peoples 889 00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:53,020 will result in even more disasters. 890 00:39:53,020 --> 00:39:53,220 will result in even more disasters. I feel that now, 891 00:39:53,220 --> 00:39:54,580 I feel that now, 892 00:39:54,580 --> 00:39:57,820 when this genocidal war 893 00:39:57,820 --> 00:40:03,460 is still going on in Gaza and against Gaza, 894 00:40:03,460 --> 00:40:06,820 my first thing that I say is there must be a ceasefire. 895 00:40:06,820 --> 00:40:09,340 On what do you base the word 'genocide'? 896 00:40:09,340 --> 00:40:11,340 I'd say genocidal. Genocidal? 897 00:40:11,340 --> 00:40:11,580 I'd say genocidal. Why do you use the word 'genocidal'? 898 00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:13,020 Why do you use the word 'genocidal'? 899 00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:18,180 Because the enormity of the killing, the enormity of the wounded, 900 00:40:18,180 --> 00:40:20,420 the enormity of the destruction, 901 00:40:20,420 --> 00:40:22,060 the enormity of the fear 902 00:40:22,060 --> 00:40:26,100 that each person, including so many of my friends, 903 00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:31,300 pass every moment of their life now for almost five months, 904 00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:34,500 the enormity of it is genocidal. 905 00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:37,620 Genocides start 906 00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:40,700 with something very, very clear - 907 00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:40,940 the intention with something very, very clear - 908 00:40:40,940 --> 00:40:45,300 the intention to kill a race or a people. 909 00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:45,540 the intention We do not have this intention. 910 00:40:45,540 --> 00:40:49,140 We do not have this intention. 911 00:40:49,140 --> 00:40:50,140 That's it. 912 00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:51,860 So, it is not genocide. 913 00:40:51,860 --> 00:40:54,380 It is not a genocide intent. 914 00:40:54,380 --> 00:40:56,780 We are facing a major threat 915 00:40:56,780 --> 00:40:59,340 and we are fighting against a threat. 916 00:40:59,340 --> 00:41:00,580 We are doing many mistakes, 917 00:41:00,580 --> 00:41:03,420 but it is far from being genocide 918 00:41:03,420 --> 00:41:06,260 or far from being a genocide intent. 919 00:41:06,260 --> 00:41:07,460 That's it. 920 00:41:15,220 --> 00:41:17,220 The International Court of Justice 921 00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:19,300 opened hearings on allegations 922 00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:19,540 that Israel opened hearings on allegations 923 00:41:19,540 --> 00:41:22,780 that Israel was committing genocide in Gaza. 924 00:41:22,780 --> 00:41:23,020 that Israel The acts and omissions by Israel... 925 00:41:23,020 --> 00:41:24,660 The acts and omissions by Israel... 926 00:41:24,660 --> 00:41:26,220 In a preliminary ruling 927 00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:27,740 the court said it was plausible 928 00:41:27,740 --> 00:41:27,980 that Israel's acts the court said it was plausible 929 00:41:27,980 --> 00:41:30,620 that Israel's acts could amount to genocide. 930 00:41:30,620 --> 00:41:30,860 The ICJ ordered restraint. that Israel's acts could amount to genocide. 931 00:41:30,860 --> 00:41:34,180 The ICJ ordered restraint. 932 00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:39,740 Another international court is investigating possible war crimes 933 00:41:39,740 --> 00:41:39,980 Another international court by both Hamas and Israel. 934 00:41:39,980 --> 00:41:42,220 by both Hamas and Israel. 935 00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:49,820 I'm so tired of the legal terms for things and legal definitions, 936 00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:51,820 and I know that for years, you know, 937 00:41:51,820 --> 00:41:54,500 Palestinians used to say genocide about almost everything, 938 00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:54,740 Palestinians used to say genocide and I opposed it. 939 00:41:54,740 --> 00:41:55,980 and I opposed it. 940 00:41:55,980 --> 00:41:56,220 When you kill so many families and I opposed it. 941 00:41:56,220 --> 00:42:01,060 When you kill so many families in one bomb 942 00:42:01,060 --> 00:42:03,300 and when you destroy so many families, 943 00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:07,860 you don't have any chain... no...no...no... 944 00:42:07,860 --> 00:42:11,140 ..no chain, no memories left for the family 945 00:42:11,140 --> 00:42:16,020 and no chain of descendants for this family. 946 00:42:16,020 --> 00:42:18,580 You destroy culture. You destroy academics. 947 00:42:18,580 --> 00:42:21,580 You destroy schools. You destroy clinics. 948 00:42:21,580 --> 00:42:24,140 I mean, the reconstruction will take... 949 00:42:24,140 --> 00:42:24,380 I mean, the reconstruction ..decades. 950 00:42:24,380 --> 00:42:25,380 ..decades. 951 00:42:25,380 --> 00:42:26,500 Decades. 952 00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,980 Some members of Hamas have said clearly 953 00:42:28,980 --> 00:42:31,460 that, "We will try more October 7s." 954 00:42:31,460 --> 00:42:33,580 They're committed to wiping out Israel. 955 00:42:33,580 --> 00:42:33,820 They're committed What can Israel do to protect itself? 956 00:42:33,820 --> 00:42:37,260 What can Israel do to protect itself? 957 00:42:39,420 --> 00:42:41,620 I think the answer is very simple. 958 00:42:41,620 --> 00:42:44,140 They need to end the Israeli military occupation, 959 00:42:44,140 --> 00:42:47,300 they need to grant the Palestinians back their rights, 960 00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:47,540 they need to grant and they need to recognise 961 00:42:47,540 --> 00:42:49,140 and they need to recognise 962 00:42:49,140 --> 00:42:49,380 that the Palestinians have a right and they need to recognise 963 00:42:49,380 --> 00:42:52,340 that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination, to freedom, 964 00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:54,940 to sovereignty, to independence, to liberation, 965 00:42:54,940 --> 00:42:55,180 to sovereignty, to independence, to being equally humans. 966 00:42:55,180 --> 00:42:57,140 to being equally humans. 967 00:42:57,140 --> 00:42:59,660 Do you now fear for the future? 968 00:43:00,620 --> 00:43:02,060 Um... 969 00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:05,260 I am worried. 970 00:43:05,260 --> 00:43:10,540 Uh... I am worried about the future of Israel. 971 00:43:10,540 --> 00:43:10,780 Uh... I am worried Uh... Yes. More than ever. 972 00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:13,820 Uh... Yes. More than ever. 973 00:43:13,820 --> 00:43:14,060 You cannot deter Uh... Yes. More than ever. 974 00:43:14,060 --> 00:43:18,420 You cannot deter a person or a group of people 975 00:43:18,420 --> 00:43:21,740 if they believe that they have nothing to lose. 976 00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:21,980 if they believe We Israelis, we shall have security 977 00:43:21,980 --> 00:43:25,340 We Israelis, we shall have security 978 00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:28,940 only when THEY will have hope. 979 00:43:28,940 --> 00:43:31,220 What's the future for Palestinians? 980 00:43:31,220 --> 00:43:34,260 Supporting death will not bring you anything. 981 00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:34,500 Supporting death If you don't believe 982 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:35,980 If you don't believe 983 00:43:35,980 --> 00:43:38,180 that the Jewish presence here 984 00:43:38,180 --> 00:43:40,660 between the Mediterranean and Jordan Valley 985 00:43:40,660 --> 00:43:42,020 is forever, 986 00:43:42,020 --> 00:43:45,460 you are going to lose more than you've lost till now. 987 00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:49,020 ABDALJAWAD OMAR: We're in a very bleak, very dark moment 988 00:43:49,020 --> 00:43:49,260 ABDALJAWAD OMAR: We're in in our own history. 989 00:43:49,260 --> 00:43:50,500 in our own history. 990 00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:52,660 But, at the same time, I always think 991 00:43:52,660 --> 00:43:56,180 that from the depths of despair, from the depths of this darkness, 992 00:43:56,180 --> 00:43:56,420 that from the depths of despair, we can always see some light. 993 00:43:56,420 --> 00:43:58,660 we can always see some light. 994 00:43:58,660 --> 00:44:00,500 And perhaps there is some hope 995 00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:04,940 that we can reconfigure life in the Holy Land 996 00:44:04,940 --> 00:44:08,900 in a way that treats people equally, 997 00:44:08,900 --> 00:44:12,980 treats people with the humanity that they deserve. 998 00:44:14,140 --> 00:44:19,820 (TRADITIONAL JEWISH SINGING) 999 00:44:19,820 --> 00:44:24,540 It's often said that this conflict is impossibly complicated, 1000 00:44:24,540 --> 00:44:28,180 now even more so after the atrocities of October 7 1001 00:44:28,180 --> 00:44:28,420 now even more so and the horrors of its aftermath. 1002 00:44:28,420 --> 00:44:30,140 and the horrors of its aftermath. 1003 00:44:30,140 --> 00:44:30,380 Trust is broken and and the horrors of its aftermath. 1004 00:44:30,380 --> 00:44:35,060 Trust is broken and animosities are greater than ever. 1005 00:44:36,020 --> 00:44:39,260 But when you really listen to both sides, 1006 00:44:39,260 --> 00:44:42,220 their aspirations have not changed. 1007 00:44:43,660 --> 00:44:45,540 The essence is this - 1008 00:44:45,540 --> 00:44:47,220 Israelis want security, 1009 00:44:47,220 --> 00:44:47,460 Palestinians Israelis want security, 1010 00:44:47,460 --> 00:44:50,300 Palestinians want an independent state. 1011 00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:52,820 If Israel agreed to end its occupation 1012 00:44:52,820 --> 00:44:56,060 and Palestinians guaranteed Israeli security, 1013 00:44:56,060 --> 00:45:00,020 then this most intractable of all conflicts could end. 1014 00:45:00,020 --> 00:45:04,220 Right now it feels like we're light years away from that. 1015 00:45:04,220 --> 00:45:04,460 Right now it feels like But if something doesn't give, 1016 00:45:04,460 --> 00:45:06,260 But if something doesn't give, 1017 00:45:06,260 --> 00:45:08,140 then the horrors of October 7 1018 00:45:08,140 --> 00:45:08,380 and the death and devastation in Gaza then the horrors of October 7 1019 00:45:08,380 --> 00:45:11,380 and the death and devastation in Gaza that followed 1020 00:45:11,380 --> 00:45:16,220 are unlikely to be the darkest place to which this conflict sinks. 1021 00:45:28,340 --> 00:45:30,380 (THEME MUSIC PLAYS) 1022 00:45:47,260 --> 00:45:48,860 Captions by Red Bee Media 1023 00:45:48,860 --> 00:45:51,060 Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation