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(THEME MUSIC PLAYS)
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JOHN LYONS: For five months now
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JOHN LYONS: For five months now
have been bombarded by images
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our screens
have been bombarded by images
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depicting Israel's
air and ground assault on Gaza.
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This extraordinary footage
air and ground assault on Gaza.
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This extraordinary footage
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This extraordinary footage
the destruction has been.
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shows just how widespread
the destruction has been.
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Israel is still denying
foreign journalists
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Israel is still denying
independent access to Gaza.
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independent access to Gaza.
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We're in Israel
independent access to Gaza.
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We're in Israel
about a kilometre from the border.
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Generations of historians
will study this Gaza war,
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the violence
of Hamas's October 7 attack
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the violence
of Hamas's October 7 attack
and the unparalleled ferocity
of Israel's retaliation,
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and the unparalleled ferocity
of Israel's retaliation,
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which left tens of thousands
of Palestinians dead
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and vast sections of Gaza
reduced to rubble.
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One thing they'll focus on
will be Israel's response.
and vast sections of Gaza
reduced to rubble.
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One thing they'll focus on
will be Israel's response.
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Was it proportionate?
will be Israel's response.
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Was it proportionate?
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Or was it driven
by rage, humiliation and revenge?
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Was it legitimate self-defence?
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Or did it involve
the commission of war crimes,
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as Israel's detractors
around the world have alleged?
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as Israel's detractors
around the world have alleged?
And would the war
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And would the war
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jolt the international community
into pushing for something
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that Israel's leadership
had for so long resisted -
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a Palestinian state?
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In this Four Corners
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we go head to head with insiders
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at the centre of Israel's defence
we go head to head with insiders
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at the centre of Israel's defence
and intelligence establishment,
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at the centre of Israel's defence
a former prime minister...
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a former prime minister...
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Let's start.
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..two ex-intelligence chiefs,
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a current cabinet minister
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and a one-time
Israeli army commander.
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We challenged them about
one of the most controversial wars...
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Are you ready?
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..in modern times.
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Why has the most powerful army
in the Middle East, Israel,
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killed so many children?
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Do you think that revenge has become
a major factor in Israel's response?
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Do you think that revenge has become
No.
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No.
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Can Hamas be destroyed?
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Hamas as a military organisation
Can Hamas be destroyed?
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Hamas as a military organisation
will be destroyed.
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Hamas as a military organisation
They hate us!
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They hate us!
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We saw the results.
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The idea of eradicating Hamas
completely from Gaza
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is a just cause.
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I don't think that anyone
made a deliberate decision
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I don't think that anyone
to kill children.
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to kill children.
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YEHUDA SHAUL:
That the IDF is doing everything
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to avoid civilian casualties
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is a blunt lie.
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Straight lie.
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(CRIES)
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Gaza was already one of the most
desperate places on Earth.
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Gaza was already one of the most
(SCREAMS)
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(SCREAMS)
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Now it's uninhabitable, plagued
by mass starvation and disease.
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When I look at it, Israel is
committing a series of war crimes.
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When I look at it, Israel is
(EXPLOSION)
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(EXPLOSION)
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Some warned that Israel's
fierce response to October 7
(EXPLOSION)
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Some warned that Israel's
fierce response to October 7
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will have sown seeds of hatred
for generations to come.
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Is there a way out
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of what's beginning
to look like The Forever War?
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October 7 was the deadliest day
in Israel's history.
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AVI DICHTER: Saturday morning,
it was about 6 o'clock I woke up.
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AVI DICHTER: Saturday morning,
it was about 6 o'clock I woke up.
I got to prepare myself
to go to the beach to swim.
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I got to prepare myself
to go to the beach to swim.
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I got to prepare myself
About 20 minutes later
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About 20 minutes later
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I heard noises of Iron Dome rockets
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I heard noises of Iron Dome rockets
far away.
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far away.
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(ROCKETS WHOOSH)
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As someone who lives in Ashkelon,
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I'm familiar with the noises
As someone who lives in Ashkelon,
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I'm familiar with the noises
of rockets of Iron Dome.
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I'm familiar with the noises
It was very odd
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It was very odd
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because Iron Dome before a siren,
it's a never happened before.
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because Iron Dome before a siren,
(ROCKETS WHOOSH)
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(ROCKETS WHOOSH)
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AMI AYALON:
(ROCKETS WHOOSH)
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AMI AYALON:
I got a telephone call from my son.
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He asked me what is the code
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in order to open the safe
here in in my home.
He asked me what is the code
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in order to open the safe
here in in my home.
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I said, "Why do you need the code?"
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And he said he need his gun
because his gun is in our safe.
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And he said he need his gun
He then said, "There is a war."
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He then said, "There is a war."
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And I said, "What?!"
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(GUNSHOTS)
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YEHUDA SHAUL: I was watching
all the horrible videos
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YEHUDA SHAUL: I was watching
coming out from the south and...
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coming out from the south and...
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And I became physically sick.
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The level of dehumanisation,
the brutality...
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..yeah, was just beyond belief.
the brutality...
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..yeah, was just beyond belief.
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(INDISTINCT YELLING)
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(INDISTINCT YELLING)
(GUNSHOTS)
(WOMAN SCREAMS)
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(GUNSHOTS)
(WOMAN SCREAMS)
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(GUNFIRE)
(CRIES)
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What went wrong?
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Everything.
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Literally everything.
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EHUD BARAK: It became clear that
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that's the worst failure of our
intelligence and operational forces
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since the establishment
of the state of Israel.
that's the worst failure of our
intelligence and operational forces
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since the establishment
of the state of Israel.
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Israel is at war.
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ABDALJAWAD OMAR: From the beginning
of the first moment, I knew that
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such a big event
will also bring a ferocious Israel
ABDALJAWAD OMAR: From the beginning
of the first moment, I knew that
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such a big event
will also bring a ferocious Israel
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and a ferocious Israeli response.
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and a ferocious Israeli response.
They've made a mistake
of historic proportions.
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They've made a mistake
of historic proportions.
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They've made a mistake
They will get cemeteries.
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They will get cemeteries.
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That's what Hamas is going to get.
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I'm telling you, the tunnels that...
That's what Hamas is going to get.
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I'm telling you, the tunnels that...
They dug tunnels -
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I'm telling you, they dug
the biggest cemetery in the world.
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YEHUDA SHAUL: You know, at the
beginning I was also full of rage.
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YEHUDA SHAUL: You know, at the
(EXPLOSIONS)
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(EXPLOSIONS)
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I also had the feeling
that, you know...
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.."These are animals.
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"We need to go there
and bomb the hell out of them."
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"We need to go there
(EXPLOSION)
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(EXPLOSION)
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But then you stop for a second
and you think
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But then you stop for a second
and you say to yourself,
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and you say to yourself,
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"What did we think is gonna happen
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"after...
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"..16 years of siege?"
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AMIRA HASS:
I was surprised and not surprised
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AMIRA HASS:
because I kept warning
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because I kept warning
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that people cannot stand
the accumulated cruelty
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accumulated over so many decades,
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and somehow it will...
there will be an explosion,
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somehow there will be an outburst.
and somehow it will...
there will be an explosion,
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somehow there will be an outburst.
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I couldn't imagine
what it would be,
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I couldn't imagine
but, uh...but there it came.
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but, uh...but there it came.
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The occupied
Palestinian territory
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is made up
of three parts -
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is made up
Gaza, the West Bank
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Gaza, the West Bank
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and East Jerusalem.
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Gaza, under Israeli blockade
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since the militant group Hamas
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seized power in 2007,
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and the West Bank,
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run by the moderate
and the West Bank,
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run by the moderate
Palestinian Authority,
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although more than 700,000
Israeli settlers also now live there
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although more than 700,000
protected by Israeli soldiers.
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protected by Israeli soldiers.
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The architecture of occupation
is brutalist.
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Palestinians require permits
to enter or leave the West Bank.
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There are scores of fixed
checkpoints, pop-up checkpoints,
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internal checkpoints,
occasional checkpoints, roadblocks,
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earth mounds, road gates, walls,
fortified barriers and trenches.
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More than 600 physical obstacles
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and about 100 different permits
in total,
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and about 100 different permits
and everywhere
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and everywhere
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Big Brother surveillance cameras
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armed with face-recognition
Big Brother surveillance cameras
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armed with face-recognition
technologies.
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Israel says it's for security.
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19-year-old Israeli soldiers
Israel says it's for security.
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19-year-old Israeli soldiers
in the West Bank
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19-year-old Israeli soldiers
wield absolute power.
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wield absolute power.
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Even if they kill
an innocent Palestinian,
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they'll rarely
face serious consequences.
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This is Qalandia checkpoint,
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the main checkpoint
between Jerusalem that way
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and Ramallah in the West Bank
that way.
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Now, a place like this
shows the tyranny of occupation.
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Now, a place like this
We've just seen a Palestinian man
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We've just seen a Palestinian man
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come down here
and try to go through that gate.
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And that security person behind me,
he said no to him.
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He wouldn't let him.
And they closed the gate.
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Now, that Palestinian may
have to walk now two or three hours
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all the way around there
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just to get through that gate,
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which they've just decided to reopen.
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It's the complete unpredictability.
It's the tyranny.
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It's these concrete enforcers
of occupation.
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This is part
of what grinds down Palestinians,
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is that they never know
at the checkpoint
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is that they never know
what soldier, what police officer
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what soldier, what police officer
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is going to let them through
what soldier, what police officer
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is going to let them through
or not let them through.
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You've spent a lot of time
studying this, obviously...
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OK.
..as head of Shin Bet.
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Could you describe what is
the reality for Palestinians here?
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Could you describe what is
A life of people
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A life of people
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who dream about...
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..freedom,
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and don't see it.
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Whether we like it or not,
we control the life of millions.
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If you were a Palestinian
living in the West Bank or Gaza,
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If you were a Palestinian
what would your view be of Israel?
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what would your view be of Israel?
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I would fight against Israel
in order to achieve my liberty.
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How would you fight? How dirty?
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I would do everything in order to
achieve my liberty. And that's it.
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I would do everything in order to
(HUBBUB)
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(HUBBUB)
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ABDALJAWAD OMAR: Life for us
(HUBBUB)
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ABDALJAWAD OMAR: Life for us
is struggling not to drown.
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It's basically continuing
on survival mode all the time.
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It's to have your life
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It's to have your life
being determined
by an other people -
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being determined
by an other people -
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being determined
what type of economy you have,
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what type of economy you have,
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who you can fall in love with
and live with,
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00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:24,260
the ability of somebody else
to humiliate you on a daily basis
246
00:11:24,260 --> 00:11:24,500
the ability of somebody else
just passing through a checkpoint.
247
00:11:24,500 --> 00:11:26,180
just passing through a checkpoint.
248
00:11:26,180 --> 00:11:28,580
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
249
00:11:28,580 --> 00:11:32,300
We sometimes feel like
we live in this field of targets.
250
00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:36,260
I've seen personally when an
Israeli sniper hit one of my friends
251
00:11:36,260 --> 00:11:39,500
and high fived his buddy
that he got the target.
252
00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:39,740
and high fived his buddy
Life under occupation is basically
253
00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:42,620
Life under occupation is basically
254
00:11:42,620 --> 00:11:45,100
being expected
to normalise with the abnormal.
255
00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:52,940
What's it like
having a gun pointed at you?
256
00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:53,180
What's it like
It's... It's totally abnormal.
257
00:11:53,180 --> 00:11:55,420
It's... It's totally abnormal.
258
00:11:55,420 --> 00:11:58,700
It's not civilised,
to say the least.
259
00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:01,700
If I want to take my kids over
the weekend to visit their grandma,
260
00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:04,260
who lives 40 minutes away
from Ramallah,
261
00:12:04,260 --> 00:12:04,500
who lives 40 minutes away
we have to pass two checkpoints.
262
00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:06,260
we have to pass two checkpoints.
263
00:12:06,260 --> 00:12:07,780
We have to stop, get checked
264
00:12:07,780 --> 00:12:10,660
with the soldiers pointing the guns
at the back seat
265
00:12:10,660 --> 00:12:13,660
where my kids, you know,
are terrified,
266
00:12:13,660 --> 00:12:15,940
and they start to ask questions.
267
00:12:15,940 --> 00:12:17,700
Any moment the Israelis may come
268
00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:20,380
and declare that your land
is state land,
269
00:12:20,380 --> 00:12:20,620
and declare that your land
so, you cannot reach it,
270
00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:21,580
so, you cannot reach it,
271
00:12:21,580 --> 00:12:21,820
and then see an Israeli settlement
so, you cannot reach it,
272
00:12:21,820 --> 00:12:24,700
and then see an Israeli settlement
being built there,
273
00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:28,020
your piece of land, the trees
that your grandfather planted.
274
00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:36,540
You are not allowed to connect,
for example, to the water system,
275
00:12:36,540 --> 00:12:36,780
You are not allowed to connect,
for example, to the water system,
while a nearby Israeli outpost
276
00:12:36,780 --> 00:12:39,340
while a nearby Israeli outpost
277
00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:43,580
immediately drowns in greenery.
278
00:12:47,020 --> 00:12:49,380
If life in the West Bank
was difficult,
279
00:12:49,380 --> 00:12:49,620
If life in the West Bank
daily life in Gaza was worse.
280
00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:51,980
daily life in Gaza was worse.
281
00:12:51,980 --> 00:12:56,980
Israel's siege condemned
Gaza's 2.3 million Palestinians
282
00:12:56,980 --> 00:12:58,420
to slow suffocation
283
00:12:58,420 --> 00:13:03,020
in what many describe as the world's
largest open-air prison.
284
00:13:03,020 --> 00:13:03,260
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
in what many describe as the world's
largest open-air prison.
285
00:13:03,260 --> 00:13:06,500
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
286
00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:06,700
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
Every so often, Gaza would erupt
287
00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:09,340
Every so often, Gaza would erupt
288
00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:09,580
with public protest
Every so often, Gaza would erupt
289
00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:12,180
with public protest
or barrages of rockets,
290
00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:15,540
and Israel
would come down even harder.
291
00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:33,900
DALAL IRIQAT: Can you imagine
that 2.3 million civilians in Gaza
292
00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:37,220
were deprived
from enjoying the basic right
293
00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:37,460
were deprived
of having clean water, electricity?
294
00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:40,940
of having clean water, electricity?
295
00:13:40,940 --> 00:13:44,740
Four hours of electricity a day?
296
00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:50,180
Internet services.
Best-case scenario - 2G services?
297
00:13:50,180 --> 00:13:50,420
Internet services.
Just because Israel wants that?
298
00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:52,700
Just because Israel wants that?
299
00:13:54,540 --> 00:13:57,260
ABDALJAWAD OMAR: What was the choice
of Palestinians before October 7?
300
00:13:57,260 --> 00:14:01,180
No legal respite,
no diplomatic resolution,
301
00:14:01,180 --> 00:14:04,500
no horizon for a two-state solution
or one-state solution,
302
00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:07,740
no efficacy for non-violence action.
303
00:14:07,740 --> 00:14:10,500
(WIND GUSTS)
304
00:14:11,460 --> 00:14:17,060
Is there a certain rationale
to Israel's security argument?
305
00:14:17,060 --> 00:14:17,300
Is there a certain rationale
I don't think it's rational.
306
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:19,100
I don't think it's rational.
307
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:20,860
(CAR HORN BEEPS, TRAFFIC DRONES)
308
00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:27,140
If we provide those people
with normal basic human rights,
309
00:14:27,140 --> 00:14:30,340
why would they resort
to anything else?
310
00:14:30,340 --> 00:14:32,940
As long as Israel continues
to occupy the Palestinians
311
00:14:32,940 --> 00:14:33,180
As long as Israel continues
and deprive them and suffocate them,
312
00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:36,580
and deprive them and suffocate them,
313
00:14:36,580 --> 00:14:41,100
they should not expect
but for more violence.
314
00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:44,420
Look, I once was asked
some 30 years ago
315
00:14:44,420 --> 00:14:48,020
what I have been doing
if I were a Palestinian,
316
00:14:48,020 --> 00:14:48,260
what I have been doing
and 30 years ago
317
00:14:48,260 --> 00:14:50,140
and 30 years ago
318
00:14:50,140 --> 00:14:53,460
I was new enough in politics
319
00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:55,140
to tell the truth
320
00:14:55,140 --> 00:14:57,340
that if I were born Palestinian
321
00:14:57,340 --> 00:15:00,860
I probably would have joined
one of the terror organisations.
322
00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:09,220
Believe me, I fully understand
323
00:15:09,220 --> 00:15:12,100
there are things that are painful
for the other side,
324
00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:15,500
and if you look at them isolated
from the rest of the picture,
325
00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:16,740
they sound terrible.
326
00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:20,780
Israel is living genuinely
in a very tough neighbourhood.
327
00:15:20,780 --> 00:15:23,540
I once compared it
to a villa in the jungle.
328
00:15:23,540 --> 00:15:24,780
Inside your villa
329
00:15:24,780 --> 00:15:28,420
you can enjoy, you know,
classical music or your jacuzzi.
330
00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:32,380
Once you step...the first step
you go out of your door,
331
00:15:32,380 --> 00:15:36,980
you have to be ready to pull the
trigger within a split of a second
332
00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:39,220
otherwise you would not survive.
333
00:15:39,220 --> 00:15:43,700
The real challenge, when we look
at it from a wider perspective,
334
00:15:43,700 --> 00:15:49,540
is you cannot avoid human pain
and damage along such conflict,
335
00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:53,140
but you can think honestly
about how to solve it
336
00:15:53,140 --> 00:15:53,380
but you can think honestly
rather to dig deeper into the hole.
337
00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:55,780
rather to dig deeper into the hole.
338
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:09,500
The rampage by Hamas on October 7
shook Israelis to their core.
339
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:13,020
Within hours Israel was bombing Gaza.
340
00:16:13,020 --> 00:16:15,660
(EXPLOSIONS)
341
00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:17,780
EHUD BARAK:
It was clear from day one
342
00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:19,700
that we will have to deploy
343
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:22,660
tens of thousands of pairs of boots
on the ground.
344
00:16:22,660 --> 00:16:22,900
tens of thousands of pairs of boots
(GUNSHOTS)
345
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:24,580
(GUNSHOTS)
346
00:16:24,580 --> 00:16:29,740
Once the order was given to the
army, then they are doing it well.
347
00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:31,540
(EXPLOSION)
348
00:16:31,540 --> 00:16:34,220
But there are significant
achievements,
349
00:16:34,220 --> 00:16:37,380
even in developing tactics
along the way
350
00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:38,900
to fight with the tunnels
351
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:43,180
that were much more developed
kind of system
352
00:16:43,180 --> 00:16:43,420
that were much more developed
than we assessed at the beginning.
353
00:16:43,420 --> 00:16:45,980
than we assessed at the beginning.
354
00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:52,060
Since October more than 30,000 Gazans
have been killed,
355
00:16:52,060 --> 00:16:55,980
two-thirds of them
women and children.
356
00:16:57,460 --> 00:17:01,900
Why did Israel need to kill
so many people in Gaza?
357
00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:02,140
Why did Israel need to kill
We never target civilians.
358
00:17:02,140 --> 00:17:04,380
We never target civilians.
359
00:17:04,380 --> 00:17:05,820
You may not be targeting them,
360
00:17:05,820 --> 00:17:08,700
but they're dying
in their tens of thousands.
361
00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:13,300
Because they live...
or those that control their life
362
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:13,540
Because they live...
are these terrorists
363
00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:14,940
are these terrorists
364
00:17:14,940 --> 00:17:19,140
that are exploiting their existence.
365
00:17:19,140 --> 00:17:21,540
Israel is dropping the bombs.
366
00:17:21,540 --> 00:17:23,380
We have no other alternative.
367
00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:26,020
I try to avoid these casualties,
368
00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:27,260
and I can't.
369
00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:34,820
I was in the Israeli
security cabinet
370
00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:35,100
I was in the Israeli
security cabinet
and I know how the Israeli army
is working
371
00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:38,220
and I know how the Israeli army
is working
372
00:17:38,220 --> 00:17:38,460
and I know how the Israeli army
and is targeting in accordance,
373
00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:40,420
and is targeting in accordance,
374
00:17:40,420 --> 00:17:40,660
every target is getting the approval
and is targeting in accordance,
375
00:17:40,660 --> 00:17:45,580
every target is getting the approval
of the Justice Ministry.
376
00:17:45,580 --> 00:17:50,140
And if the army can prove
that this is a legitimate target,
377
00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:50,980
it is.
378
00:17:50,980 --> 00:17:52,620
(EXPLOSION)
379
00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:57,940
AVI DICHTER: Gaza strip -
it's 350 square kilometres.
380
00:17:57,940 --> 00:17:58,180
AVI DICHTER: Gaza strip -
That's it.
381
00:17:58,180 --> 00:17:59,220
That's it.
382
00:17:59,220 --> 00:17:59,460
All in all,
That's it.
383
00:17:59,460 --> 00:18:01,860
All in all,
there are about 40,000 terrorists,
384
00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:02,100
All in all,
paid as terrorists,
385
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:03,340
paid as terrorists,
386
00:18:03,340 --> 00:18:04,860
trained as terrorists.
387
00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:15,260
You have to take into account
the surrounding of those terrorists,
388
00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:19,260
it's many, many thousands,
389
00:18:19,260 --> 00:18:20,860
tens of thousands of terrorists.
390
00:18:20,860 --> 00:18:21,100
Mr Ayalon,
tens of thousands of terrorists.
391
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:23,340
Mr Ayalon,
one thing I don't understand
392
00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:27,780
is why does the most powerful
military in the Middle East, Israel,
393
00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:31,220
backed by the most powerful military
the world's ever seen,
394
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:31,460
backed by the most powerful military
the United States,
395
00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:33,100
the United States,
396
00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:35,460
need to kill so many children.
397
00:18:36,540 --> 00:18:38,220
We don't need to.
398
00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:40,140
But you are.
399
00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:43,740
There was no war like this
ever fought.
400
00:18:43,740 --> 00:18:43,980
There was no war like this
(EXPLOSION)
401
00:18:43,980 --> 00:18:47,500
(EXPLOSION)
402
00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:49,300
When we fight Hamas...
403
00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:50,100
(ROCKET WHOOSHES)
404
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:51,100
(EXPLOSION)
405
00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:56,220
..it is the most populated
battlefield ever fought
406
00:18:56,220 --> 00:18:58,140
in the history of wars...
407
00:18:58,140 --> 00:18:59,700
(EXPLOSION)
408
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:04,900
..and, in order to achieve
our military goals,
409
00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:05,140
..and, in order to achieve
we have to hit military targets.
410
00:19:05,140 --> 00:19:07,860
we have to hit military targets.
411
00:19:07,860 --> 00:19:08,100
But in a populated area
in which we are fighting in Gaza,
we have to hit military targets.
412
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:14,460
But in a populated area
in which we are fighting in Gaza,
413
00:19:14,460 --> 00:19:18,260
it is almost impossible
to hit a military target
414
00:19:18,260 --> 00:19:21,980
without killing or hitting
civilians.
415
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:29,500
Hamas deliberately are using
civil targets, civilian targets -
416
00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:29,740
Hamas deliberately are using
schools, hospitals,
417
00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:31,580
schools, hospitals,
418
00:19:31,580 --> 00:19:31,780
schools, hospitals,
UN institutions -
419
00:19:31,780 --> 00:19:33,660
UN institutions -
420
00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:38,060
in order to place
421
00:19:38,060 --> 00:19:40,700
military targets
422
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:44,660
in civilians' institutions,
423
00:19:44,660 --> 00:19:44,900
and even according
in civilians' institutions,
424
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:49,940
and even according
to international law
425
00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:54,660
we have the right to hit
the military installation
426
00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:54,900
we have the right to hit
if it is used deliberately.
427
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,900
if it is used deliberately.
428
00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,700
So, Hamas is doing everything
429
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:00,940
in order for us to kill or to use
So, Hamas is doing everything
430
00:20:00,940 --> 00:20:07,820
in order for us to kill or to use
their people as a human shield.
431
00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:08,060
in order for us to kill or to use
I don't think that anyone
432
00:20:08,060 --> 00:20:09,380
I don't think that anyone
433
00:20:09,380 --> 00:20:12,420
made a deliberate decision
to kill children.
434
00:20:12,420 --> 00:20:13,740
I'm not saying
it was a deliberate decision.
435
00:20:13,740 --> 00:20:16,780
I'm asking why did the most
powerful army kill so many children?
436
00:20:16,780 --> 00:20:20,420
Look... No, I want to describe it
in a different way.
437
00:20:20,420 --> 00:20:24,140
So, Israel called upon
the population
438
00:20:24,140 --> 00:20:24,380
to leave the area
So, Israel called upon
the population
439
00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:25,620
to leave the area
440
00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:28,820
for some two or three weeks
repeatedly.
441
00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:34,420
YEHUDA SHAUL:
That we are told that the IDF
442
00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:36,460
is doing everything
to avoid civilian casualties
443
00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:36,700
is doing everything
is a blunt lie.
444
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:38,380
is a blunt lie.
445
00:20:38,380 --> 00:20:40,380
Straight lie.
446
00:20:40,380 --> 00:20:43,460
It's a hard statement to say
about my own army,
447
00:20:43,460 --> 00:20:44,740
but it's the truth.
448
00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:53,340
Yehuda Shaul,
a former Israeli army commander,
449
00:20:53,340 --> 00:20:55,340
says Israeli military strategy
450
00:20:55,340 --> 00:20:58,300
has been driven for the past 15 years
451
00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:04,100
by a doctrine of deterrence
through disproportionate destruction.
452
00:21:06,260 --> 00:21:11,740
Theoretically, it's possible to bomb
thousands of legitimate targets.
453
00:21:11,740 --> 00:21:14,260
What matters
is the devil is in the details.
454
00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:17,380
We don't have enough evidence
455
00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:20,940
coming from soldiers
coming out of Gaza in this war yet,
456
00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:21,180
coming from soldiers
but we know from past operations,
457
00:21:21,180 --> 00:21:23,620
but we know from past operations,
458
00:21:23,620 --> 00:21:26,020
from before October 7,
459
00:21:26,020 --> 00:21:26,260
in terms of how
from before October 7,
460
00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:28,660
in terms of how
the IDF fights in Gaza.
461
00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:32,980
We are told
that every target we strike
462
00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:36,700
is a legitimate target under
international humanitarian law,
463
00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:39,580
and it's based on, you know...
464
00:21:40,540 --> 00:21:43,420
..clear-cut, you know,
double-checked,
465
00:21:43,420 --> 00:21:43,660
..clear-cut, you know,
verified intelligence.
466
00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:45,020
verified intelligence.
467
00:21:45,020 --> 00:21:45,260
And when we strike,
verified intelligence.
468
00:21:45,260 --> 00:21:48,500
And when we strike,
we do it in a surgical manner,
469
00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:51,420
in a way...
while taking all precautions
470
00:21:51,420 --> 00:21:51,660
in a way...
to avoid, you know...to minimise
471
00:21:51,660 --> 00:21:54,660
to avoid, you know...to minimise
472
00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:58,420
the civilian collateral damage
and casualties, yeah?
473
00:22:01,740 --> 00:22:03,780
But that is not the case.
474
00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:05,660
Then the question
is proportionality.
475
00:22:06,620 --> 00:22:09,420
But what about
a house of a militant?
476
00:22:10,740 --> 00:22:14,860
A target that was very common
in many operations before in Gaza.
477
00:22:14,860 --> 00:22:19,140
2-, 3-, 4-, 5-, 6-storey building
that you will wipe out
478
00:22:19,140 --> 00:22:20,820
with a half one-tonne bomb
479
00:22:20,820 --> 00:22:23,540
just because on the second floor,
the flat to the left,
480
00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:23,780
just because on the second floor,
a Hamas militant lives.
481
00:22:23,780 --> 00:22:25,340
a Hamas militant lives.
482
00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:29,460
(EXPLOSION)
483
00:22:29,460 --> 00:22:32,380
There's no way this
is a legitimate target under IHL.
484
00:22:33,340 --> 00:22:37,060
I have no doubt
that after October 7, yeah,
485
00:22:37,060 --> 00:22:41,220
they've loosened some of the
restrains, some of the restrictions
486
00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:41,460
they've loosened some of the
they had from previous wars.
487
00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:43,140
they had from previous wars.
488
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:43,380
What exactly?
they had from previous wars.
489
00:22:43,380 --> 00:22:46,380
What exactly?
We don't really know yet.
490
00:22:46,380 --> 00:22:48,700
But all what you need,
for example...
491
00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:51,500
..is to decide
492
00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:56,220
that the amount of civilians you're
allowed to take out for each strike
493
00:22:56,220 --> 00:22:56,460
that the amount of civilians you're
goes higher than before,
494
00:22:56,460 --> 00:22:58,060
goes higher than before,
495
00:22:58,060 --> 00:23:01,700
and you lower the rank
of a Hamas operative
496
00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:04,020
that you're allowed to strike.
497
00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:06,420
So, if before, let's say,
498
00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:08,260
for a company officer in Hamas,
499
00:23:08,260 --> 00:23:11,380
you were allowed
to take out five civilians,
500
00:23:11,380 --> 00:23:13,100
hypothetically speaking...
501
00:23:14,060 --> 00:23:17,900
..and now, in this war, for every
rank-and-file guy in Hamas,
502
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:21,300
you're allowed to take out,
ie, to kill,
503
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:22,980
15 civilians...
504
00:23:24,380 --> 00:23:28,380
..you know, a move like this
can explain a lot of what we see.
505
00:23:30,140 --> 00:23:35,380
Was there a viable alternative to all
this, to the scale of the killing?
506
00:23:36,620 --> 00:23:39,940
Israel's famous
for its targeted assassinations.
507
00:23:39,940 --> 00:23:41,940
I mean, you yourself
dressed as a woman, famously,
508
00:23:41,940 --> 00:23:44,780
and went into Beirut
and met up with Mossad
509
00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:47,260
and went and killed
a Palestinian leader.
510
00:23:47,260 --> 00:23:49,500
Israel's done that over the years.
511
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:53,780
Why couldn't they have tried
to strategically target Hamas leaders
512
00:23:53,780 --> 00:23:56,740
rather than kill
those thousands of children?
513
00:23:56,740 --> 00:23:56,980
rather than kill
I never deluded myself
514
00:23:56,980 --> 00:23:59,620
I never deluded myself
515
00:23:59,620 --> 00:23:59,860
to believe that by killing any
I never deluded myself
516
00:23:59,860 --> 00:24:04,420
to believe that by killing any
individual, you solve the problem.
517
00:24:04,420 --> 00:24:08,380
You give them a blow,
and they will recover, in a way.
518
00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:08,620
You give them a blow,
It just delay the real decision.
519
00:24:08,620 --> 00:24:11,900
It just delay the real decision.
520
00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:13,540
Real decisions at the end
521
00:24:13,540 --> 00:24:17,140
are not about how to kill mosquitoes
more effectively,
522
00:24:17,140 --> 00:24:17,380
are not about how to kill mosquitoes
it's about how to drain the swamp.
523
00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:19,140
it's about how to drain the swamp.
524
00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:21,020
You've worked for Mossad.
525
00:24:21,020 --> 00:24:22,580
Probably no other country on Earth
526
00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:24,100
can target its enemies
as successfully.
527
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:24,340
can target its enemies
Against terror, yes.
528
00:24:24,340 --> 00:24:25,780
Against terror, yes.
529
00:24:25,780 --> 00:24:27,980
Mossad has been into Dubai...
530
00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:29,380
Yes.
..as you know,
531
00:24:29,380 --> 00:24:31,900
and they have killed and targeted
Hamas leaders.
532
00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:33,340
They can do it in Beirut.
533
00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:33,580
Yeah.
They can do it in Beirut.
534
00:24:33,580 --> 00:24:35,420
Yeah.
They can do it in Dubai.
535
00:24:35,420 --> 00:24:35,660
Yeah.
Wouldn't an alternative
536
00:24:35,660 --> 00:24:37,260
Wouldn't an alternative
537
00:24:37,260 --> 00:24:41,460
to thousands and thousands
of women and children being killed...
538
00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:46,460
They are hiding
amongst these civilians now.
539
00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:48,700
You asked is there an alternative?
So, what is...
540
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:52,020
Wouldn't an alternative
be to get the Hamas leadership
541
00:24:52,020 --> 00:24:56,220
who were behind this whole plan,
like Yahya Sinwar,
542
00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:57,500
and to have done to him
543
00:24:57,500 --> 00:25:00,740
what Mossad and Israel has done to
other Hamas leaders over the years
544
00:25:00,740 --> 00:25:00,980
what Mossad and Israel has done to
and not kill thousands of civilians?
545
00:25:00,980 --> 00:25:03,220
and not kill thousands of civilians?
546
00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:03,420
It's not just about one leader,
and not kill thousands of civilians?
547
00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:05,660
It's not just about one leader,
548
00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:07,300
it's about this organisation
549
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:11,100
that his vision or ideology
550
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:11,340
that his vision or ideology
is to kill Israelis,
is to kill Jews.
551
00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:13,500
is to kill Israelis,
is to kill Jews.
552
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:14,940
This is where we are standing.
553
00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:19,100
And, unfortunately,
they turned it into a regime.
554
00:25:24,620 --> 00:25:28,620
This is Benjamin Netanyahu's war,
555
00:25:28,620 --> 00:25:32,540
Israel's
longest-serving prime minister.
556
00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:32,780
Israel's
Throughout his career
557
00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:34,060
Throughout his career
558
00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:39,140
Netanyahu has tried to kill the idea
of a Palestinian state.
559
00:25:43,740 --> 00:25:45,980
Do you trust Benjamin Netanyahu?
560
00:25:46,940 --> 00:25:48,140
Never.
561
00:25:48,140 --> 00:25:49,180
(LAUGHS)
562
00:25:49,180 --> 00:25:52,500
Can there be peace while Benjamin
Netanyahu is the leader here?
563
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:52,740
Can there be peace while Benjamin
Uh... No.
564
00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:54,500
Uh... No.
565
00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:55,860
No.
566
00:25:55,860 --> 00:25:56,100
Can the world trust
No.
567
00:25:56,100 --> 00:25:58,500
Can the world trust
Benjamin Netanyahu?
568
00:25:58,500 --> 00:25:58,780
I don't think
that anyone can trust him.
Can the world trust
Benjamin Netanyahu?
569
00:25:58,780 --> 00:26:01,620
I don't think
that anyone can trust him.
570
00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:01,900
I don't think
that anyone can trust him.
Basically, he lies to everyone,
and no-one trusts him.
571
00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:05,460
Basically, he lies to everyone,
and no-one trusts him.
572
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:10,100
(LIVELY MUSIC PLAYS)
573
00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:11,660
Just over a year ago
574
00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:13,140
he managed to cobble together
575
00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:16,940
the most right-wing coalition
Israel's ever seen.
576
00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:18,860
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
577
00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:23,860
Netanyahu awarded senior cabinet
portfolios to two extremists -
578
00:26:23,860 --> 00:26:27,020
Bezalel Smotrich,
now the Finance Minister,
579
00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:28,580
and Itamar Ben-Gvir,
580
00:26:28,580 --> 00:26:30,460
Minister of National Security.
581
00:26:30,460 --> 00:26:30,660
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
Minister of National Security.
582
00:26:30,660 --> 00:26:33,220
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
583
00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:33,460
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
Both ministers
live in illegal settlements.
584
00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:35,980
Both ministers
live in illegal settlements.
585
00:26:38,940 --> 00:26:40,700
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
586
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:43,180
Ben-Gvir has criminal convictions
587
00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:43,420
for racist incitement and supporting
Ben-Gvir has criminal convictions
588
00:26:43,420 --> 00:26:48,220
for racist incitement and supporting
a Zionist terrorist group.
589
00:26:48,220 --> 00:26:53,100
He's been condemned by the US
and the EU for using racist rhetoric.
590
00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:53,340
He's been condemned by the US
(SPEAKS IN HEBREW)
591
00:26:53,340 --> 00:26:54,980
(SPEAKS IN HEBREW)
592
00:26:54,980 --> 00:26:59,500
Smotrich denies the very existence
of the Palestinian people.
593
00:27:02,860 --> 00:27:05,500
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
594
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:10,340
These two men are now accused
of driving Netanyahu's Gaza policy,
595
00:27:10,340 --> 00:27:14,820
pushing the agenda that would force
Palestinians off their lands.
596
00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:20,940
I think Israel's agenda,
the end goal, is to annex the land.
597
00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:25,140
It doesn't take a genius
to come up with that conclusion.
598
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:25,380
It doesn't take a genius
Here's Israel in 1948...
599
00:27:25,380 --> 00:27:27,140
Here's Israel in 1948...
600
00:27:27,140 --> 00:27:27,380
You know, Netanyahu himself
Here's Israel in 1948...
601
00:27:27,380 --> 00:27:29,900
You know, Netanyahu himself
went to the UN in September
602
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:31,980
and he showed that map
from the river to the sea.
603
00:27:31,980 --> 00:27:34,220
..surrounded
by a hostile Arab world.
604
00:27:34,220 --> 00:27:34,460
What does that mean to anybody?
..surrounded
by a hostile Arab world.
605
00:27:34,460 --> 00:27:36,140
What does that mean to anybody?
606
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,580
He doesn't see Palestine.
607
00:27:39,580 --> 00:27:41,220
He doesn't see Palestinians.
608
00:27:41,220 --> 00:27:41,420
He doesn't see Palestinians.
The whole Middle East changes.
609
00:27:41,420 --> 00:27:44,220
The whole Middle East changes.
610
00:27:44,220 --> 00:27:47,260
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich,
the two racists,
611
00:27:47,260 --> 00:27:47,500
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich,
are messianic guys
612
00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:49,740
are messianic guys
613
00:27:49,740 --> 00:27:51,180
that seems to be...
614
00:27:51,180 --> 00:27:54,300
..to have a very strong leverage
on Bibi.
615
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:59,500
They want to turn it
into a major religious war
616
00:27:59,500 --> 00:27:59,740
They want to turn it
between Israel and the Islam.
617
00:27:59,740 --> 00:28:01,820
between Israel and the Islam.
618
00:28:01,820 --> 00:28:02,980
Are they dangerous?
619
00:28:02,980 --> 00:28:04,820
Sure. Sure they are dangerous.
620
00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:10,060
How powerful
are Ben-Gvir and Smotrich?
621
00:28:10,060 --> 00:28:11,980
And what do you think of them?
622
00:28:11,980 --> 00:28:12,180
I see them as terrorists
And what do you think of them?
623
00:28:12,180 --> 00:28:13,900
I see them as terrorists
624
00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:17,700
and as Jewish messianics.
625
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:17,940
and as Jewish messianics.
They represent only a small minority
within the Israeli society,
626
00:28:17,940 --> 00:28:22,780
They represent only a small minority
within the Israeli society,
627
00:28:22,780 --> 00:28:27,820
but they get their power because
of, um...our coalition system.
628
00:28:27,820 --> 00:28:28,060
but they get their power because
But can I just check something?
629
00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:29,420
But can I just check something?
630
00:28:29,420 --> 00:28:32,420
Are you calling
the Minister for National Security
631
00:28:32,420 --> 00:28:34,700
and the Minister for Finance
in Israel...
632
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:35,740
..are you calling them terrorists?
633
00:28:35,740 --> 00:28:36,940
Of course.
634
00:28:36,940 --> 00:28:38,020
They are.
635
00:28:38,020 --> 00:28:39,780
Is the brutal reality
636
00:28:39,780 --> 00:28:40,020
that Benjamin Netanyahu
Is the brutal reality
637
00:28:40,020 --> 00:28:43,180
that Benjamin Netanyahu
wants to continue this war
638
00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:43,420
that Benjamin Netanyahu
for his own political survival?
639
00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:45,220
for his own political survival?
640
00:28:46,380 --> 00:28:49,980
Look, I cannot penetrate his soul
and tell you for sure,
641
00:28:49,980 --> 00:28:50,220
Look, I cannot penetrate his soul
but it's clear
642
00:28:50,220 --> 00:28:51,580
but it's clear
643
00:28:51,580 --> 00:28:54,420
that he acts as if
644
00:28:54,420 --> 00:28:54,660
the main objective
of this whole event
that he acts as if
645
00:28:54,660 --> 00:28:57,820
the main objective
of this whole event
646
00:28:57,820 --> 00:28:59,300
is his survival.
647
00:28:59,300 --> 00:28:59,500
is his survival.
(SPEAKS IN HEBREW)
648
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:01,020
(SPEAKS IN HEBREW)
649
00:29:01,020 --> 00:29:04,980
He understands
that if fighting will have a pause
650
00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:08,660
for six weeks
or two times six weeks,
651
00:29:08,660 --> 00:29:12,740
the Israeli public
will demand accountability,
652
00:29:12,740 --> 00:29:12,980
the Israeli public
in spite of the fact that
653
00:29:12,980 --> 00:29:14,220
in spite of the fact that
654
00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:18,020
there is no word in Hebrew
for accountability.
655
00:29:18,020 --> 00:29:20,340
It was not needed in our culture.
656
00:29:20,340 --> 00:29:22,740
But the public will demand it,
657
00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:26,180
and he might lose his role
as the Prime Minister.
658
00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:29,740
The Prime Minister's office
did not respond
659
00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:29,980
The Prime Minister's office
when we put these allegations to him.
660
00:29:29,980 --> 00:29:32,020
when we put these allegations to him.
661
00:29:32,020 --> 00:29:33,940
(SPEAKS IN HEBREW)
662
00:29:33,940 --> 00:29:34,180
Mr Ben-Gvir and Mr Smotrich
(SPEAKS IN HEBREW)
663
00:29:34,180 --> 00:29:38,260
Mr Ben-Gvir and Mr Smotrich
also failed to respond.
664
00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:43,540
It now appears that Netanyahu
wanted to sow seeds of division
665
00:29:43,540 --> 00:29:46,180
between the hardliners
who ruled Gaza
666
00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:50,100
and the more conciliatory Palestinian
Authority running the West Bank.
667
00:29:51,060 --> 00:29:53,540
AMI AYALON:
We did something very, very simple.
668
00:29:53,540 --> 00:29:55,180
We did everything
669
00:29:55,180 --> 00:30:00,020
in order to make sure that Hamas
will go on controlling Gaza
670
00:30:00,020 --> 00:30:04,140
and Palestinian Authority
will control the West Bank
671
00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:06,180
so they will fight each other.
672
00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:10,340
Netanyahu allowed Qatar
to give massive amounts of cash
673
00:30:10,340 --> 00:30:10,580
Netanyahu allowed Qatar
to Hamas in Gaza.
674
00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:12,260
to Hamas in Gaza.
675
00:30:12,260 --> 00:30:16,780
So, what we did with the permission
of our prime minister
676
00:30:16,780 --> 00:30:24,380
is to let Qatar to transfer
a huge amount of money in cash,
677
00:30:24,380 --> 00:30:24,620
is to let Qatar to transfer
probably more than $1.4 billion,
678
00:30:24,620 --> 00:30:29,860
probably more than $1.4 billion,
679
00:30:29,860 --> 00:30:31,740
and to make sure
680
00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:31,980
that they will be able to send,
and to make sure
681
00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:36,580
that they will be able to send,
you know, people to work in Israel
682
00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:41,140
and to achieve or to get
intelligence if they need.
683
00:30:41,140 --> 00:30:44,500
By doing it,
we increase the power of Hamas.
684
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:44,740
By doing it,
That served Netanyahu,
685
00:30:44,740 --> 00:30:46,300
That served Netanyahu,
686
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:46,540
who wanted to avoid any discussion
That served Netanyahu,
687
00:30:46,540 --> 00:30:49,900
who wanted to avoid any discussion
of a two-state solution.
688
00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:53,980
So, are you saying Benjamin Netanyahu
deliberately boosted Hamas
689
00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:56,340
to try to prevent
a Palestinian state?
690
00:30:56,340 --> 00:30:57,100
Yeah, sure.
691
00:30:57,100 --> 00:31:01,620
He deliberately and systematically,
even told on record -
692
00:31:01,620 --> 00:31:07,540
"Whoever wants to avoid
the threat of a two-state solution
693
00:31:07,540 --> 00:31:13,180
"has to support my policy of paying
protection money to the Hamas."
694
00:31:14,940 --> 00:31:16,500
Netanyahu maintains
695
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:21,100
the Qatar money was to avoid
a humanitarian catastrophe.
696
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:21,340
the Qatar money was to avoid
Having helped to build up Hamas,
697
00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:23,580
Having helped to build up Hamas,
698
00:31:23,580 --> 00:31:26,540
Netanyahu has now vowed
to destroy it.
699
00:31:27,740 --> 00:31:29,500
He fed the beast,
700
00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:31,300
and it exploded in our face.
701
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:31,540
If you base your national-security
strategy solely on force,
and it exploded in our face.
702
00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:37,900
If you base your national-security
strategy solely on force,
703
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:40,380
then you need to win 24-7 forever.
704
00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:43,940
Is it possible
that Hamas CAN be destroyed?
705
00:31:43,940 --> 00:31:48,300
I don't believe you can destroy
Hamas with military force alone.
706
00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:48,540
I don't believe you can destroy
The issue is this, OK?
707
00:31:48,540 --> 00:31:51,420
The issue is this, OK?
708
00:31:51,420 --> 00:31:54,060
If you want...
709
00:31:55,740 --> 00:31:57,940
..to destroy Hamas
710
00:31:57,940 --> 00:31:59,860
in Gaza,
711
00:31:59,860 --> 00:32:01,780
what you will have to do
712
00:32:01,780 --> 00:32:02,020
is forcibly displace more than
what you will have to do
713
00:32:02,020 --> 00:32:06,700
is forcibly displace more than
two million Palestinians into Sinai.
714
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:06,940
is forcibly displace more than
Go house by house, corner by corner.
715
00:32:06,940 --> 00:32:08,980
Go house by house, corner by corner.
716
00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:11,420
Wipe out entire Gaza above ground.
717
00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:17,260
And then go for months underground,
tunnel by tunnel.
718
00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:18,020
Yeah?
719
00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:22,220
Suffer hundreds of casualties,
if not thousands, ultimately.
720
00:32:22,220 --> 00:32:25,300
And maybe after a few years
there won't be Hamas in Gaza.
721
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:26,780
But if you've done THAT...
722
00:32:28,060 --> 00:32:30,340
..there's going to be Hamas
everywhere else.
723
00:32:30,340 --> 00:32:30,580
..there's going to be Hamas
Can Hamas be destroyed?
724
00:32:30,580 --> 00:32:32,340
Can Hamas be destroyed?
725
00:32:32,340 --> 00:32:32,580
Hamas as a military organisation
Can Hamas be destroyed?
726
00:32:32,580 --> 00:32:36,380
Hamas as a military organisation
will be destroyed.
727
00:32:37,340 --> 00:32:39,860
We are in a war in Gaza.
728
00:32:39,860 --> 00:32:43,540
We put two main goals
in front of the military
729
00:32:43,540 --> 00:32:45,540
and in front
of the security organisations.
730
00:32:45,540 --> 00:32:48,860
First, to destroy
all military infrastructure
731
00:32:48,860 --> 00:32:49,100
First, to destroy
of Hamas and PIJ in Gaza Strip.
732
00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:52,580
of Hamas and PIJ in Gaza Strip.
733
00:32:52,580 --> 00:32:56,020
And the second goal -
to topple the regime of Hamas
734
00:32:56,020 --> 00:32:59,060
from continuing ruling and running
the Gaza Strip.
735
00:32:59,060 --> 00:32:59,300
from continuing ruling and running
These were the two main goals,
736
00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:00,900
These were the two main goals,
737
00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:06,100
and the main target
was to release all hostages
738
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:10,380
at that time we knew
that were taken into the Gaza Strip.
739
00:33:10,380 --> 00:33:13,340
So, they can hide in tunnels.
740
00:33:13,340 --> 00:33:15,180
We shall find them there.
741
00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:17,660
They can hide in houses.
We shall find them there.
742
00:33:17,660 --> 00:33:19,900
It's not going to be stopped
743
00:33:19,900 --> 00:33:23,980
up until we are going to destroy
the military infrastructure of both
744
00:33:23,980 --> 00:33:24,220
up until we are going to destroy
in Gaza Strip.
745
00:33:24,220 --> 00:33:25,460
in Gaza Strip.
746
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:25,700
How long do you think Israel's war
in Gaza Strip.
747
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:28,860
How long do you think Israel's war
against Hamas will last?
748
00:33:28,860 --> 00:33:29,100
How long do you think Israel's war
How long it will take?
749
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:30,860
How long it will take?
750
00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:35,220
It may take a year or two.
751
00:33:35,220 --> 00:33:40,620
We stand with Israel.
752
00:33:42,020 --> 00:33:45,500
And we will make sure it has what it
needs to take care of its citizens,
753
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:49,020
defend itself
and respond to this attack.
754
00:33:49,020 --> 00:33:51,540
What would happen
if President Biden said,
755
00:33:51,540 --> 00:33:54,980
"Thousands and thousands of civilians
have been killed in Gaza,
756
00:33:54,980 --> 00:33:56,700
"the bombing's indiscriminate,
757
00:33:56,700 --> 00:33:59,980
"as of tomorrow
I'm cutting off the supply of bombs"?
758
00:33:59,980 --> 00:34:00,220
"as of tomorrow
The war would end.
759
00:34:00,220 --> 00:34:01,620
The war would end.
760
00:34:02,580 --> 00:34:04,340
That would be the end of this war.
761
00:34:04,340 --> 00:34:07,100
Israel cannot wage it
without these bombs.
762
00:34:12,620 --> 00:34:16,580
The role of the US
has been, as usual,
763
00:34:16,580 --> 00:34:16,820
The role of the US
has been, as usual,
full-fledged support for Israel,
764
00:34:16,820 --> 00:34:20,060
full-fledged support for Israel,
765
00:34:20,060 --> 00:34:23,380
backing in the Security Council,
766
00:34:23,380 --> 00:34:26,260
supply of arms,
767
00:34:26,260 --> 00:34:29,420
total complicity and responsibility
768
00:34:29,420 --> 00:34:31,980
for all of Israel's behaviour
769
00:34:31,980 --> 00:34:34,460
and the bombing
that is indiscriminate,
770
00:34:34,460 --> 00:34:36,100
as the President said,
771
00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:37,540
and at the same time
772
00:34:37,540 --> 00:34:41,060
a bit of public finger-wagging.
773
00:34:41,060 --> 00:34:44,420
(GRAND MILITARY MUSIC PLAYS)
774
00:34:44,420 --> 00:34:46,300
Since 1946
775
00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:47,780
the US has provided
776
00:34:47,780 --> 00:34:52,460
more than $200 billion
in military aid to Israel.
777
00:34:56,860 --> 00:35:00,300
In the 1967 Six-Day War
778
00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:04,460
Israel's then newly appointed
defence minister, Moshe Dayan,
779
00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:07,580
took personal command
of Israeli forces
780
00:35:07,580 --> 00:35:10,420
as they captured East Jerusalem.
781
00:35:10,420 --> 00:35:12,500
(BELL TOLLS)
782
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:15,620
(BIRDS TWITTER)
783
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:18,860
(PRAYER OVER PA SYSTEM)
784
00:35:18,860 --> 00:35:20,820
Moshe Dayan once said,
785
00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:24,740
"Our American friends
offer us money, arms and advice.
786
00:35:24,740 --> 00:35:26,980
"We take the money, we take the arms,
787
00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:29,380
"but we decline the advice."
788
00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:32,060
Those words have echoed
down through the decades.
789
00:35:32,060 --> 00:35:32,300
Those words have echoed
Now, an emboldened Israel
790
00:35:32,300 --> 00:35:34,060
Now, an emboldened Israel
791
00:35:34,060 --> 00:35:34,300
has flattened vast sections of Gaza
Now, an emboldened Israel
792
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:38,580
has flattened vast sections of Gaza
with American bombs,
793
00:35:38,580 --> 00:35:41,500
declining the softly spoken advice
794
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:43,540
of President Biden.
795
00:35:43,540 --> 00:35:43,780
The State of Israel was born to be
of President Biden.
796
00:35:43,780 --> 00:35:47,740
The State of Israel was born to be
a safe place for the Jewish people.
797
00:35:47,740 --> 00:35:51,540
President Biden
is a lifelong supporter of Israel.
798
00:35:51,540 --> 00:35:56,420
I've long said if Israel didn't
exist, we'd have to invent it.
799
00:35:56,420 --> 00:36:00,220
The supporters of Israel in America,
of course, would say,
800
00:36:00,220 --> 00:36:02,460
"Israel is the only democracy
in the Middle East.
801
00:36:02,460 --> 00:36:05,740
"It's in our strategic interests
to support it."
802
00:36:05,740 --> 00:36:05,980
"It's in our strategic interests
Is that a fair argument?
803
00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:08,860
Is that a fair argument?
804
00:36:08,860 --> 00:36:13,620
Well, I don't know of any democracy
805
00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:17,100
that for more than half a century
806
00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:21,700
has deprived millions of the people
under its control
807
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:21,940
has deprived millions of the people
of basic civil rights
808
00:36:21,940 --> 00:36:23,660
of basic civil rights
809
00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:23,900
based on their inborn
of basic civil rights
810
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:26,700
based on their inborn
characteristics.
811
00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:26,940
based on their inborn
That is the case here in Israel,
812
00:36:26,940 --> 00:36:28,940
That is the case here in Israel,
813
00:36:28,940 --> 00:36:33,300
and I don't think it's defensible
814
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:35,020
under any definition of democracy
815
00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:37,500
to call this place a democracy.
816
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:42,700
EHUD BARAK: Israel cannot fight
this regional war
817
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:45,340
without having close relationship
with the Americans.
818
00:36:45,340 --> 00:36:45,580
without having close relationship
We need their support,
819
00:36:45,580 --> 00:36:46,820
We need their support,
820
00:36:46,820 --> 00:36:50,940
not just in munitions that we do not
produce in enough pace
821
00:36:50,940 --> 00:36:55,100
to supply the needs
of such a regional war,
822
00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:59,540
but we need them also to protect us
in the UN Security Council.
823
00:36:59,540 --> 00:37:02,220
We needed them
at the beginning of the crisis
824
00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:02,460
We needed them
to deter Iran from getting involved
825
00:37:02,460 --> 00:37:05,260
to deter Iran from getting involved
826
00:37:05,260 --> 00:37:08,580
or from activating Hezbollah
against us.
827
00:37:08,580 --> 00:37:11,020
And we will need them
even in The Hague
828
00:37:11,020 --> 00:37:11,260
And we will need them
to block the prospect
829
00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:14,460
to block the prospect
830
00:37:14,460 --> 00:37:16,900
that Israeli commanders
or even political leaders
831
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:20,740
might find themselves
at a criminal court in The Hague
832
00:37:20,740 --> 00:37:20,980
might find themselves
or demanded to be brought.
833
00:37:20,980 --> 00:37:22,540
or demanded to be brought.
834
00:37:22,540 --> 00:37:25,940
Only America can help us
to avoid all this.
835
00:37:25,940 --> 00:37:32,540
Pro-Israeli lobby groups in the US
wield immense power.
836
00:37:32,540 --> 00:37:35,060
NATHAN THRALL: Every politician
in the United States knows
837
00:37:35,060 --> 00:37:39,700
that they can pay a major price
with their jobs
838
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:39,940
that they can pay a major price
for not toeing the line,
839
00:37:39,940 --> 00:37:42,180
for not toeing the line,
840
00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:44,380
and the level
841
00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:46,900
of devastation
that we are seeing now
842
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:47,140
of devastation
has so horrified the world
843
00:37:47,140 --> 00:37:49,980
has so horrified the world
844
00:37:49,980 --> 00:37:52,980
and has so horrified
the American public
845
00:37:52,980 --> 00:37:53,260
and has so horrified
the American public
that now we have half of the people
who voted for Biden
846
00:37:53,260 --> 00:37:57,180
that now we have half of the people
who voted for Biden
847
00:37:57,180 --> 00:38:01,460
saying that Israel
is perpetrating a genocide in Gaza.
848
00:38:01,460 --> 00:38:04,780
JOE BIDEN: Israel also has
a fundamental responsibility
849
00:38:04,780 --> 00:38:07,100
to protect innocent civilians
in Gaza.
850
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:07,340
to protect innocent civilians
(APPLAUSE)
851
00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:08,900
(APPLAUSE)
852
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:12,860
And now for Biden,
for the very first time,
853
00:38:12,860 --> 00:38:16,580
there is talk
that an American president
854
00:38:16,580 --> 00:38:22,300
could lose an election
over being too pro-Israel.
855
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:22,540
could lose an election
It's unheard of.
856
00:38:22,540 --> 00:38:24,300
It's unheard of.
857
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:24,540
And, so, we have
this enormous American hypocrisy
It's unheard of.
858
00:38:24,540 --> 00:38:28,940
And, so, we have
this enormous American hypocrisy
859
00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:29,180
of supplying the bombs
this enormous American hypocrisy
860
00:38:29,180 --> 00:38:31,020
of supplying the bombs
861
00:38:31,020 --> 00:38:31,260
of supplying the bombs
are being used indiscriminately
862
00:38:31,260 --> 00:38:34,660
that we say
are being used indiscriminately
863
00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:34,900
and expressing sympathy
are being used indiscriminately
864
00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:37,820
and expressing sympathy
865
00:38:37,820 --> 00:38:41,460
for the people
who are being killed by our bombs.
866
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:45,260
American criticism has intensified,
867
00:38:45,260 --> 00:38:48,380
with Washington
repeatedly expressing frustration
868
00:38:48,380 --> 00:38:50,900
at the impact of the war
on civilians,
869
00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:53,260
but the bombing has continued.
870
00:38:54,780 --> 00:38:59,500
If it's found later that war crimes
were committed by Israel,
871
00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:02,580
is the United States complicit
in those war crimes?
872
00:39:02,580 --> 00:39:04,900
100%.
873
00:39:07,860 --> 00:39:11,780
As the US continues
to supply Israel with munitions,
874
00:39:11,780 --> 00:39:12,020
As the US continues
it's now dropping food aid to Gazans
875
00:39:12,020 --> 00:39:15,020
it's now dropping food aid to Gazans
876
00:39:15,020 --> 00:39:19,540
amid warnings that hunger
has reached catastrophic levels.
877
00:39:19,540 --> 00:39:23,420
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
878
00:39:23,420 --> 00:39:23,660
Children are already
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
879
00:39:23,660 --> 00:39:27,100
Children are already
dying of starvation,
880
00:39:27,100 --> 00:39:27,340
Children are already
and the UN says famine is imminent.
881
00:39:27,340 --> 00:39:30,420
and the UN says famine is imminent.
882
00:39:30,420 --> 00:39:32,940
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
883
00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:35,820
(PRAYER OVER PA SYSTEM)
884
00:39:35,820 --> 00:39:37,260
AMIRA HASS: There is this country
885
00:39:37,260 --> 00:39:39,660
and there are two peoples
who live in it,
886
00:39:39,660 --> 00:39:43,220
and this country
belongs to the two peoples.
887
00:39:43,220 --> 00:39:49,460
But any plan to expel or
to get rid of one of the two peoples
888
00:39:49,460 --> 00:39:49,700
will result in even more disasters.
But any plan to expel or
to get rid of one of the two peoples
889
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:53,020
will result in even more disasters.
890
00:39:53,020 --> 00:39:53,220
will result in even more disasters.
I feel that now,
891
00:39:53,220 --> 00:39:54,580
I feel that now,
892
00:39:54,580 --> 00:39:57,820
when this genocidal war
893
00:39:57,820 --> 00:40:03,460
is still going on in Gaza
and against Gaza,
894
00:40:03,460 --> 00:40:06,820
my first thing that I say
is there must be a ceasefire.
895
00:40:06,820 --> 00:40:09,340
On what do you base
the word 'genocide'?
896
00:40:09,340 --> 00:40:11,340
I'd say genocidal.
Genocidal?
897
00:40:11,340 --> 00:40:11,580
I'd say genocidal.
Why do you use the word 'genocidal'?
898
00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:13,020
Why do you use the word 'genocidal'?
899
00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:18,180
Because the enormity of the killing,
the enormity of the wounded,
900
00:40:18,180 --> 00:40:20,420
the enormity of the destruction,
901
00:40:20,420 --> 00:40:22,060
the enormity of the fear
902
00:40:22,060 --> 00:40:26,100
that each person,
including so many of my friends,
903
00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:31,300
pass every moment of their life now
for almost five months,
904
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:34,500
the enormity of it is genocidal.
905
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:37,620
Genocides start
906
00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:40,700
with something very, very clear -
907
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:40,940
the intention
with something very, very clear -
908
00:40:40,940 --> 00:40:45,300
the intention
to kill a race or a people.
909
00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:45,540
the intention
We do not have this intention.
910
00:40:45,540 --> 00:40:49,140
We do not have this intention.
911
00:40:49,140 --> 00:40:50,140
That's it.
912
00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:51,860
So, it is not genocide.
913
00:40:51,860 --> 00:40:54,380
It is not a genocide intent.
914
00:40:54,380 --> 00:40:56,780
We are facing a major threat
915
00:40:56,780 --> 00:40:59,340
and we are fighting
against a threat.
916
00:40:59,340 --> 00:41:00,580
We are doing many mistakes,
917
00:41:00,580 --> 00:41:03,420
but it is far from being genocide
918
00:41:03,420 --> 00:41:06,260
or far from being a genocide intent.
919
00:41:06,260 --> 00:41:07,460
That's it.
920
00:41:15,220 --> 00:41:17,220
The International Court of Justice
921
00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:19,300
opened hearings on allegations
922
00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:19,540
that Israel
opened hearings on allegations
923
00:41:19,540 --> 00:41:22,780
that Israel
was committing genocide in Gaza.
924
00:41:22,780 --> 00:41:23,020
that Israel
The acts and omissions by Israel...
925
00:41:23,020 --> 00:41:24,660
The acts and omissions by Israel...
926
00:41:24,660 --> 00:41:26,220
In a preliminary ruling
927
00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:27,740
the court said it was plausible
928
00:41:27,740 --> 00:41:27,980
that Israel's acts
the court said it was plausible
929
00:41:27,980 --> 00:41:30,620
that Israel's acts
could amount to genocide.
930
00:41:30,620 --> 00:41:30,860
The ICJ ordered restraint.
that Israel's acts
could amount to genocide.
931
00:41:30,860 --> 00:41:34,180
The ICJ ordered restraint.
932
00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:39,740
Another international court
is investigating possible war crimes
933
00:41:39,740 --> 00:41:39,980
Another international court
by both Hamas and Israel.
934
00:41:39,980 --> 00:41:42,220
by both Hamas and Israel.
935
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:49,820
I'm so tired of the legal terms
for things and legal definitions,
936
00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:51,820
and I know that for years, you know,
937
00:41:51,820 --> 00:41:54,500
Palestinians used to say genocide
about almost everything,
938
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:54,740
Palestinians used to say genocide
and I opposed it.
939
00:41:54,740 --> 00:41:55,980
and I opposed it.
940
00:41:55,980 --> 00:41:56,220
When you kill so many families
and I opposed it.
941
00:41:56,220 --> 00:42:01,060
When you kill so many families
in one bomb
942
00:42:01,060 --> 00:42:03,300
and when you destroy
so many families,
943
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:07,860
you don't have any chain...
no...no...no...
944
00:42:07,860 --> 00:42:11,140
..no chain, no memories left
for the family
945
00:42:11,140 --> 00:42:16,020
and no chain of descendants
for this family.
946
00:42:16,020 --> 00:42:18,580
You destroy culture.
You destroy academics.
947
00:42:18,580 --> 00:42:21,580
You destroy schools.
You destroy clinics.
948
00:42:21,580 --> 00:42:24,140
I mean, the reconstruction
will take...
949
00:42:24,140 --> 00:42:24,380
I mean, the reconstruction
..decades.
950
00:42:24,380 --> 00:42:25,380
..decades.
951
00:42:25,380 --> 00:42:26,500
Decades.
952
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,980
Some members of Hamas
have said clearly
953
00:42:28,980 --> 00:42:31,460
that, "We will try more October 7s."
954
00:42:31,460 --> 00:42:33,580
They're committed
to wiping out Israel.
955
00:42:33,580 --> 00:42:33,820
They're committed
What can Israel do to protect itself?
956
00:42:33,820 --> 00:42:37,260
What can Israel do to protect itself?
957
00:42:39,420 --> 00:42:41,620
I think the answer is very simple.
958
00:42:41,620 --> 00:42:44,140
They need to end
the Israeli military occupation,
959
00:42:44,140 --> 00:42:47,300
they need to grant
the Palestinians back their rights,
960
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:47,540
they need to grant
and they need to recognise
961
00:42:47,540 --> 00:42:49,140
and they need to recognise
962
00:42:49,140 --> 00:42:49,380
that the Palestinians have a right
and they need to recognise
963
00:42:49,380 --> 00:42:52,340
that the Palestinians have a right
to self-determination, to freedom,
964
00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:54,940
to sovereignty, to independence,
to liberation,
965
00:42:54,940 --> 00:42:55,180
to sovereignty, to independence,
to being equally humans.
966
00:42:55,180 --> 00:42:57,140
to being equally humans.
967
00:42:57,140 --> 00:42:59,660
Do you now fear for the future?
968
00:43:00,620 --> 00:43:02,060
Um...
969
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:05,260
I am worried.
970
00:43:05,260 --> 00:43:10,540
Uh... I am worried
about the future of Israel.
971
00:43:10,540 --> 00:43:10,780
Uh... I am worried
Uh... Yes. More than ever.
972
00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:13,820
Uh... Yes. More than ever.
973
00:43:13,820 --> 00:43:14,060
You cannot deter
Uh... Yes. More than ever.
974
00:43:14,060 --> 00:43:18,420
You cannot deter
a person or a group of people
975
00:43:18,420 --> 00:43:21,740
if they believe
that they have nothing to lose.
976
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:21,980
if they believe
We Israelis, we shall have security
977
00:43:21,980 --> 00:43:25,340
We Israelis, we shall have security
978
00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:28,940
only when THEY will have hope.
979
00:43:28,940 --> 00:43:31,220
What's the future for Palestinians?
980
00:43:31,220 --> 00:43:34,260
Supporting death
will not bring you anything.
981
00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:34,500
Supporting death
If you don't believe
982
00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:35,980
If you don't believe
983
00:43:35,980 --> 00:43:38,180
that the Jewish presence here
984
00:43:38,180 --> 00:43:40,660
between the Mediterranean
and Jordan Valley
985
00:43:40,660 --> 00:43:42,020
is forever,
986
00:43:42,020 --> 00:43:45,460
you are going to lose
more than you've lost till now.
987
00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:49,020
ABDALJAWAD OMAR: We're in
a very bleak, very dark moment
988
00:43:49,020 --> 00:43:49,260
ABDALJAWAD OMAR: We're in
in our own history.
989
00:43:49,260 --> 00:43:50,500
in our own history.
990
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:52,660
But, at the same time,
I always think
991
00:43:52,660 --> 00:43:56,180
that from the depths of despair,
from the depths of this darkness,
992
00:43:56,180 --> 00:43:56,420
that from the depths of despair,
we can always see some light.
993
00:43:56,420 --> 00:43:58,660
we can always see some light.
994
00:43:58,660 --> 00:44:00,500
And perhaps there is some hope
995
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:04,940
that we can reconfigure life
in the Holy Land
996
00:44:04,940 --> 00:44:08,900
in a way that treats people equally,
997
00:44:08,900 --> 00:44:12,980
treats people
with the humanity that they deserve.
998
00:44:14,140 --> 00:44:19,820
(TRADITIONAL JEWISH SINGING)
999
00:44:19,820 --> 00:44:24,540
It's often said that this conflict
is impossibly complicated,
1000
00:44:24,540 --> 00:44:28,180
now even more so
after the atrocities of October 7
1001
00:44:28,180 --> 00:44:28,420
now even more so
and the horrors of its aftermath.
1002
00:44:28,420 --> 00:44:30,140
and the horrors of its aftermath.
1003
00:44:30,140 --> 00:44:30,380
Trust is broken and
and the horrors of its aftermath.
1004
00:44:30,380 --> 00:44:35,060
Trust is broken and
animosities are greater than ever.
1005
00:44:36,020 --> 00:44:39,260
But when you really listen
to both sides,
1006
00:44:39,260 --> 00:44:42,220
their aspirations have not changed.
1007
00:44:43,660 --> 00:44:45,540
The essence is this -
1008
00:44:45,540 --> 00:44:47,220
Israelis want security,
1009
00:44:47,220 --> 00:44:47,460
Palestinians
Israelis want security,
1010
00:44:47,460 --> 00:44:50,300
Palestinians
want an independent state.
1011
00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:52,820
If Israel agreed
to end its occupation
1012
00:44:52,820 --> 00:44:56,060
and Palestinians guaranteed
Israeli security,
1013
00:44:56,060 --> 00:45:00,020
then this most intractable
of all conflicts could end.
1014
00:45:00,020 --> 00:45:04,220
Right now it feels like
we're light years away from that.
1015
00:45:04,220 --> 00:45:04,460
Right now it feels like
But if something doesn't give,
1016
00:45:04,460 --> 00:45:06,260
But if something doesn't give,
1017
00:45:06,260 --> 00:45:08,140
then the horrors of October 7
1018
00:45:08,140 --> 00:45:08,380
and the death and devastation in Gaza
then the horrors of October 7
1019
00:45:08,380 --> 00:45:11,380
and the death and devastation in Gaza
that followed
1020
00:45:11,380 --> 00:45:16,220
are unlikely to be the darkest place
to which this conflict sinks.
1021
00:45:28,340 --> 00:45:30,380
(THEME MUSIC PLAYS)
1022
00:45:47,260 --> 00:45:48,860
Captions by Red Bee Media
1023
00:45:48,860 --> 00:45:51,060
Copyright
Australian Broadcasting Corporation