1 00:00:00,893 --> 00:00:03,423 - [Narrator] The Bible, a book whose origins lie 2 00:00:03,423 --> 00:00:05,673 thousands of years ago in the Middle East. 3 00:00:05,673 --> 00:00:07,633 It still inspires billions today. 4 00:00:07,633 --> 00:00:11,603 - Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God. 5 00:00:11,603 --> 00:00:13,713 - [Narrator] Seven figures from different walks of life 6 00:00:13,713 --> 00:00:15,293 offer their personal perspective 7 00:00:15,293 --> 00:00:17,323 on the bestselling book of all time 8 00:00:17,323 --> 00:00:18,623 and what it means to them. 9 00:00:19,933 --> 00:00:22,193 - Even if you've never read a word of the Bible, 10 00:00:22,193 --> 00:00:24,586 your life will have been shaped by it. 11 00:00:25,463 --> 00:00:28,433 - [Narrator] In this program, Gerry Adams investigates 12 00:00:28,433 --> 00:00:30,058 the life of Jesus. 13 00:00:30,058 --> 00:00:33,725 (dramatic orchestral music) 14 00:00:38,219 --> 00:00:41,052 (people chanting) 15 00:00:46,813 --> 00:00:49,203 - My friends may describe me as a staunch Catholic 16 00:00:49,203 --> 00:00:52,643 because when I was in prison I always went to Mass, 17 00:00:52,643 --> 00:00:55,356 and I was one of the minority who went to Mass. 18 00:00:56,293 --> 00:00:57,763 There's nothing nicer than church music 19 00:00:57,763 --> 00:01:00,336 or the communal dimension of being in the church. 20 00:01:02,153 --> 00:01:06,433 A lot of it's far from the very simple message 21 00:01:06,433 --> 00:01:07,773 of a preacher on the side of a road 22 00:01:07,773 --> 00:01:10,286 or on the side of a hill talking to people. 23 00:01:12,703 --> 00:01:14,372 Jesus didn't have a church. 24 00:01:14,372 --> 00:01:18,163 (gentle organ music) 25 00:01:18,163 --> 00:01:22,072 For as long as I have a memory, Jesus has been in there, 26 00:01:22,072 --> 00:01:25,573 as the Baby Jesus right through to the crucifixion, 27 00:01:25,573 --> 00:01:26,606 to his execution. 28 00:01:28,923 --> 00:01:31,583 His ministry was just for one year 29 00:01:31,583 --> 00:01:35,663 and that one year has effected for 2,000 years 30 00:01:35,663 --> 00:01:37,223 human beings everywhere. 31 00:01:37,223 --> 00:01:40,933 So I'm interested in getting into the real Jesus, 32 00:01:40,933 --> 00:01:43,357 the person, the human being. 33 00:01:43,357 --> 00:01:47,403 And then just, you know, reflecting on my own life, 34 00:01:47,403 --> 00:01:48,813 on all the twists and turns of it, 35 00:01:48,813 --> 00:01:53,813 and of imprisonment, of lifelong activism. 36 00:01:54,443 --> 00:01:57,793 Did the teachings of Jesus impact upon that 37 00:01:57,793 --> 00:01:59,603 in a positive way or did I ignore them? 38 00:01:59,603 --> 00:02:04,309 And just trying to examine its relevancy to me. 39 00:02:04,309 --> 00:02:06,976 (wistful music) 40 00:02:11,493 --> 00:02:15,603 Each one of us knows that for which they are responsible. 41 00:02:15,603 --> 00:02:17,893 Each one of us at some period in time is going to meet God 42 00:02:17,893 --> 00:02:22,893 and I am happy enough as of my contribution 43 00:02:23,443 --> 00:02:25,543 that I have tried to live by my standards. 44 00:02:27,953 --> 00:02:32,833 The absolute credo of my political being 45 00:02:33,713 --> 00:02:35,973 is on the right of the people of deciding to be free 46 00:02:35,973 --> 00:02:37,006 and to have an end to partition 47 00:02:37,006 --> 00:02:40,256 and an end to British involvement in our affairs. 48 00:02:42,193 --> 00:02:44,393 In my teens and early 20s, 49 00:02:44,393 --> 00:02:47,973 I was radicalized by sectarian violence against Catholics 50 00:02:47,973 --> 00:02:50,673 which drove many people I knew from their homes 51 00:02:50,673 --> 00:02:53,293 and pushed many ordinary young men and women 52 00:02:53,293 --> 00:02:54,336 to take up arms. 53 00:02:56,545 --> 00:02:57,897 (guns firing) 54 00:02:57,897 --> 00:03:00,480 (crowd cheers) 55 00:03:03,226 --> 00:03:05,823 In my 50s, along with others, 56 00:03:05,823 --> 00:03:07,693 I helped bring peace to Ireland. 57 00:03:07,693 --> 00:03:10,610 (group applauding) 58 00:03:12,793 --> 00:03:16,343 Looking back on two decades of war, 59 00:03:16,343 --> 00:03:20,283 I want to explore the Jesus message of forgiveness 60 00:03:20,283 --> 00:03:22,213 and how this has affected me 61 00:03:22,213 --> 00:03:23,666 and victims of the conflict. 62 00:03:25,843 --> 00:03:29,313 - I will never, to my dying day, 63 00:03:29,313 --> 00:03:34,313 forgive anyone who was involved in Pat's murder. 64 00:03:35,173 --> 00:03:38,679 - You don't win wars by just blowing people into oblivion. 65 00:03:38,679 --> 00:03:41,512 (explosion booms) 66 00:03:42,372 --> 00:03:45,205 (explosion booms) 67 00:03:47,299 --> 00:03:51,513 - In face of the present campaigns of Republican violence, 68 00:03:51,513 --> 00:03:55,103 the choice of all Catholics is clear. 69 00:03:55,103 --> 00:03:58,543 It is a choice between good and evil. 70 00:03:58,543 --> 00:04:00,943 - [Dan] Do you feel you have blood on your hands? 71 00:04:00,943 --> 00:04:04,533 - No, I don't, I feel that I've done my best 72 00:04:05,893 --> 00:04:07,633 by my own rights. 73 00:04:07,633 --> 00:04:12,633 But you know, I don't for one second 74 00:04:14,213 --> 00:04:18,036 step back from my responsibilities as a leader 75 00:04:20,033 --> 00:04:23,633 of a struggle that has caused 76 00:04:24,653 --> 00:04:27,943 both hurt and damage 77 00:04:27,943 --> 00:04:29,943 to other human beings. 78 00:04:29,943 --> 00:04:31,506 I don't walk away from that. 79 00:04:34,073 --> 00:04:36,613 My search for the historical Jesus 80 00:04:36,613 --> 00:04:38,476 will take me to Israel and Palestine, 81 00:04:39,443 --> 00:04:41,413 but first I'm going to talk to the leading 82 00:04:41,413 --> 00:04:44,793 emeritus theologian, Professor Vincent Twomey. 83 00:04:44,793 --> 00:04:47,483 If I want to find out about Jesus, 84 00:04:47,483 --> 00:04:52,163 what are the sources that I should go to? 85 00:04:52,163 --> 00:04:55,893 - Well, the source of the four Gospels evidently. 86 00:04:55,893 --> 00:04:59,013 The Gospels, you know, weren't written by the apostles 87 00:04:59,013 --> 00:05:02,213 but they actually faithfully record their teaching 88 00:05:03,123 --> 00:05:05,603 and that is what is important, yeah? 89 00:05:05,603 --> 00:05:08,946 - Did any of the Gospel writers actually know Jesus? 90 00:05:10,473 --> 00:05:12,593 - Mark could have, we don't know. 91 00:05:12,593 --> 00:05:13,426 - Right. 92 00:05:13,426 --> 00:05:15,343 - The four Gospels we have, of course, 93 00:05:15,343 --> 00:05:18,343 emerged out of different communities 94 00:05:18,343 --> 00:05:19,673 and different situations. 95 00:05:19,673 --> 00:05:24,673 The roles in response to the dying out of the apostles, 96 00:05:25,443 --> 00:05:27,183 so the communities throughout the world 97 00:05:27,183 --> 00:05:28,993 founded by the apostles 98 00:05:28,993 --> 00:05:32,983 had these oral memories of Jesus Christ, yeah? 99 00:05:32,983 --> 00:05:35,206 These then were collected, written down. 100 00:05:36,403 --> 00:05:39,523 - [Gerry] Given the complex origins of the Gospels, 101 00:05:39,523 --> 00:05:41,643 I wonder how faithful today's Bible is 102 00:05:41,643 --> 00:05:43,706 to what the Evangelists wrote. 103 00:05:45,193 --> 00:05:47,283 The Chester Beatty museum in Dublin 104 00:05:47,283 --> 00:05:50,606 houses some of the oldest Gospel manuscripts in the world. 105 00:05:51,523 --> 00:05:55,333 - What we are looking at is the earliest physical copy 106 00:05:55,333 --> 00:05:57,093 of St. Mark's Gospel. 107 00:05:57,093 --> 00:05:58,743 You cannot go back any further. 108 00:05:58,743 --> 00:06:02,733 The text actually relates to Jesus curing the blind man. 109 00:06:02,733 --> 00:06:06,023 And when this manuscript was found, 110 00:06:06,023 --> 00:06:07,733 scholars were very excited 111 00:06:07,733 --> 00:06:11,753 and they went through it, letter by letter, line by line, 112 00:06:11,753 --> 00:06:14,843 to make sure that the text that has come down to us, 113 00:06:14,843 --> 00:06:16,643 in English translations that people would have 114 00:06:16,643 --> 00:06:20,843 in pocketbooks like these, that there's no great variation. 115 00:06:20,843 --> 00:06:23,073 And by and large, there isn't. 116 00:06:23,073 --> 00:06:25,983 By and large, we're looking at an exact copy. 117 00:06:25,983 --> 00:06:28,913 So we still have the story of the miracle here 118 00:06:28,913 --> 00:06:31,483 as you would have it in a more modern book. 119 00:06:31,483 --> 00:06:35,383 This is 250 AD or thereabouts. 120 00:06:35,383 --> 00:06:38,863 What this shows is that all the copies of the Bible 121 00:06:38,863 --> 00:06:42,663 after this date reflect the same text. 122 00:06:42,663 --> 00:06:45,763 - [Gerry] And this authenticates the Bible which I read, 123 00:06:45,763 --> 00:06:47,113 which people read today. 124 00:06:47,113 --> 00:06:47,946 - Exactly. 125 00:06:48,841 --> 00:06:51,424 (gentle music) 126 00:06:53,403 --> 00:06:55,173 - [Gerry] You really can't begin to understand 127 00:06:55,173 --> 00:06:58,073 a person's story, or a nation's, 128 00:06:58,073 --> 00:07:01,103 unless you see it in its proper context. 129 00:07:01,103 --> 00:07:05,133 So I've come to the Holy Land to see some of the places 130 00:07:05,133 --> 00:07:07,726 Jesus visited during his ministry. 131 00:07:09,143 --> 00:07:11,833 The year of his adult life between his baptism 132 00:07:12,793 --> 00:07:15,122 and his death on the cross. 133 00:07:15,122 --> 00:07:17,789 (bells tolling) 134 00:07:27,903 --> 00:07:30,463 The Church of the Holy Sepulcher, 135 00:07:30,463 --> 00:07:31,753 built at the place 136 00:07:31,753 --> 00:07:34,744 where Jesus is said to have been crucified. 137 00:07:34,744 --> 00:07:38,161 (gentle music continues) 138 00:07:44,693 --> 00:07:46,043 There's a shrine where you can touch 139 00:07:46,043 --> 00:07:48,836 the very spot where the cross stood. 140 00:07:56,703 --> 00:07:59,433 A few steps away within the church, 141 00:07:59,433 --> 00:08:01,376 another richly decorated shrine. 142 00:08:02,403 --> 00:08:04,106 The tomb of Jesus. 143 00:08:10,083 --> 00:08:11,703 But with all the gilt and glitter, 144 00:08:11,703 --> 00:08:15,163 it's difficult to picture what a 1st-century tomb 145 00:08:15,163 --> 00:08:16,663 might really have looked like. 146 00:08:19,163 --> 00:08:23,553 And the ancient burial ground outside the city walls. 147 00:08:23,553 --> 00:08:27,053 British archeologist Shimon Gibson has offered to show me 148 00:08:27,053 --> 00:08:31,073 a recently-excavated tomb from the time of Jesus. 149 00:08:31,073 --> 00:08:33,683 - [Shimon] It's going to be quite cramped inside 150 00:08:33,683 --> 00:08:35,383 but it'll be fun, I tell you, 151 00:08:35,383 --> 00:08:37,263 to go into a tomb from the 1st century. 152 00:08:37,263 --> 00:08:39,713 - Well, jumping used to be an underground movement. 153 00:08:39,713 --> 00:08:43,033 - Ah, of course. (laughs) 154 00:08:43,033 --> 00:08:45,166 The best thing is to go in feet first. 155 00:08:54,293 --> 00:08:56,093 - [Gerry] Well, this is quite far down, isn't it? 156 00:08:56,093 --> 00:08:58,773 - [Shimon] So you can see this burial chamber 157 00:08:58,773 --> 00:09:02,083 has two benches so two people can be placed inside 158 00:09:02,083 --> 00:09:04,493 and this is really the kind of bench 159 00:09:04,493 --> 00:09:07,246 on which the body of Jesus would have been placed. 160 00:09:08,583 --> 00:09:09,925 You see what you're leaning against 161 00:09:09,925 --> 00:09:12,592 is a door of one of the locular. 162 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,103 Quite a hefty stone, isn't it? 163 00:09:15,103 --> 00:09:16,692 - [Gerry] It is a hefty stone. 164 00:09:16,692 --> 00:09:20,390 - You know that the stone which blocked the tomb of Jesus 165 00:09:21,293 --> 00:09:25,103 is always thought to be a rolling stone, a round stone. 166 00:09:25,103 --> 00:09:27,983 It looks like the stone was probably rectangular 167 00:09:27,983 --> 00:09:29,883 which was very common in that period. 168 00:09:29,883 --> 00:09:31,623 And in fact, you see the dead person 169 00:09:31,623 --> 00:09:32,653 would have been slotted in. 170 00:09:32,653 --> 00:09:35,223 They would have slotted him in head first. 171 00:09:35,223 --> 00:09:37,533 - There might many people who wished that I was.... 172 00:09:37,533 --> 00:09:39,533 - [Shimon] Yes. (chuckles) Incarcerated. 173 00:09:41,132 --> 00:09:42,263 - [Gerry] Well, I've been incarcerated. 174 00:09:42,263 --> 00:09:43,666 - [Shimon] Yeah, but within a (indistinct). 175 00:09:45,655 --> 00:09:46,488 So that's it. 176 00:09:47,503 --> 00:09:51,263 You'll see it's just the length of an adult man. 177 00:09:51,263 --> 00:09:53,896 - This is exactly what a long cage tunnel was like. 178 00:09:55,393 --> 00:09:57,966 I've got a sense of the end of Jesus's life. 179 00:09:58,973 --> 00:10:01,943 Now I want to go back and look at the historical context 180 00:10:01,943 --> 00:10:05,083 of this young Jewish man's astonishing journey 181 00:10:05,083 --> 00:10:07,246 from the cradle to the cross. 182 00:10:08,573 --> 00:10:10,183 The little town of Bethlehem, 183 00:10:10,183 --> 00:10:13,143 David's royal city of the Christmas carols, 184 00:10:13,143 --> 00:10:14,213 is a Palestinian town 185 00:10:15,153 --> 00:10:18,653 trapped inside a 25-foot separation wall, 186 00:10:18,653 --> 00:10:20,843 part of a 400-mile barrier 187 00:10:20,843 --> 00:10:23,456 designed to keep Palestinians out of Israel. 188 00:10:25,743 --> 00:10:27,883 The wall cuts off the people of Bethlehem 189 00:10:27,883 --> 00:10:31,233 from the land they own and the people they love. 190 00:10:31,233 --> 00:10:36,063 George Ardrever is a Palestinian with an Israeli passport. 191 00:10:36,063 --> 00:10:39,183 - My wife, she's Palestinian, she's from Bethlehem 192 00:10:39,183 --> 00:10:41,863 and because she's getting Palestinian ID, 193 00:10:41,863 --> 00:10:44,273 she cannot live with me in Israel. 194 00:10:44,273 --> 00:10:47,676 That why I left Nazareth and I live in Bethlehem. 195 00:10:48,783 --> 00:10:52,023 - [Gerry] So the separation wall, if you hadn't moved, 196 00:10:52,023 --> 00:10:53,903 would actually separate you from your wife. 197 00:10:53,903 --> 00:10:57,073 - Yes, yes, and a lot of families were destroyed 198 00:10:57,073 --> 00:10:59,178 because of the separation wall. 199 00:10:59,178 --> 00:11:01,761 (gentle music) 200 00:11:17,903 --> 00:11:20,003 - [Gerry] Traveling with me is Helen Bond 201 00:11:20,003 --> 00:11:21,663 from Edinburgh University, 202 00:11:21,663 --> 00:11:24,136 an expert on the historical Jesus. 203 00:11:26,019 --> 00:11:28,296 Two of the Gospels say Jesus was born here. 204 00:11:29,435 --> 00:11:32,440 The other two don't mention a birthday at all. 205 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,676 So was Jesus really born in Bethlehem? 206 00:11:36,033 --> 00:11:39,146 - Historically, I don't think it's likely at all. 207 00:11:40,373 --> 00:11:43,653 The difficulty is that these traditions are only found 208 00:11:43,653 --> 00:11:45,463 in Matthew and Luke's gospel, 209 00:11:45,463 --> 00:11:47,843 nowhere else in the New Testament. 210 00:11:47,843 --> 00:11:49,733 I think what's happening here 211 00:11:49,733 --> 00:11:52,563 is that towards the late 1st century 212 00:11:52,563 --> 00:11:54,353 Christians want to say now 213 00:11:54,353 --> 00:11:57,013 that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of David, 214 00:11:57,013 --> 00:11:59,943 and what better way to prove that 215 00:11:59,943 --> 00:12:01,593 then to have him born here, 216 00:12:01,593 --> 00:12:04,943 in the city of David, in Bethlehem? 217 00:12:04,943 --> 00:12:07,553 (man chanting) 218 00:12:07,553 --> 00:12:11,533 Matthew, for example, wants Jesus to be a second Moses 219 00:12:11,533 --> 00:12:14,133 and so his birth story is very much modeled 220 00:12:14,133 --> 00:12:15,733 on the birth of Moses, 221 00:12:15,733 --> 00:12:19,023 so in exactly the same way that the Egyptian Pharaoh 222 00:12:19,023 --> 00:12:22,443 killed all the boys under two at the birth of Moses, 223 00:12:22,443 --> 00:12:25,053 so Herod the Great, the bad king, 224 00:12:25,053 --> 00:12:27,683 kills all the boys under two at the birth of Jesus. 225 00:12:27,683 --> 00:12:32,013 - Which means Joseph and Mary didn't come to Bethlehem. 226 00:12:32,013 --> 00:12:35,377 In fact, could also mean that Jesus wasn't born 227 00:12:35,377 --> 00:12:37,543 in a manger, he wasn't born in the stables? 228 00:12:37,543 --> 00:12:38,443 - That's right, but you know, 229 00:12:38,443 --> 00:12:40,793 those traditions are only found in Luke. 230 00:12:40,793 --> 00:12:41,913 They're not in Matthew. 231 00:12:41,913 --> 00:12:42,774 - Just ruined Christmas? 232 00:12:42,774 --> 00:12:45,913 - (laughs) I don't think it means ruining Christmas. 233 00:12:45,913 --> 00:12:47,803 I think for practicing Christians, 234 00:12:47,803 --> 00:12:49,683 there's a lot in those traditions, 235 00:12:49,683 --> 00:12:52,803 but if you're asking about the historical Jesus, 236 00:12:52,803 --> 00:12:54,043 I don't think he was born here. 237 00:12:54,043 --> 00:12:55,725 I think he was born in Nazareth. 238 00:12:55,725 --> 00:12:58,073 (person singing in foreign language) 239 00:12:58,073 --> 00:13:01,126 - [Gerry] The Gospels are not history in the modern sense. 240 00:13:02,343 --> 00:13:06,423 For me, the important fact is not where Jesus was born. 241 00:13:06,423 --> 00:13:09,983 It's the fact that he was born and lived 242 00:13:09,983 --> 00:13:11,333 and died in the way he did. 243 00:13:13,203 --> 00:13:17,563 (person singing in foreign language) 244 00:13:17,563 --> 00:13:20,673 Whatever about our historical shortcomings, 245 00:13:20,673 --> 00:13:23,563 the Gospels are our only major source 246 00:13:23,563 --> 00:13:25,723 for the story of Jesus. 247 00:13:25,723 --> 00:13:28,753 But there is another book which tells us a great deal 248 00:13:28,753 --> 00:13:30,246 about the world he lived in. 249 00:13:31,133 --> 00:13:33,743 - Just about everything we know of 1st century Judea 250 00:13:33,743 --> 00:13:36,273 comes from the works of Josephus. 251 00:13:36,273 --> 00:13:38,713 He's a 1st-century Jewish aristocrat 252 00:13:38,713 --> 00:13:42,733 who's born in Judea just slightly after the time of Jesus 253 00:13:42,733 --> 00:13:44,283 but he's really important. 254 00:13:44,283 --> 00:13:46,706 - Well, I see here, just in his little bio. 255 00:13:48,415 --> 00:13:52,453 He was a Jew, he fought against Rome, 256 00:13:52,453 --> 00:13:54,930 then he defected to Rome, so... 257 00:13:54,930 --> 00:13:57,763 - (laughs) So how trustworthy is he? 258 00:13:57,763 --> 00:14:00,223 Basically, he's the only person we've got 259 00:14:00,223 --> 00:14:01,613 and if it wasn't for Josephus, 260 00:14:01,613 --> 00:14:02,823 we'd know virtually nothing, 261 00:14:02,823 --> 00:14:05,083 so we have to use him with caution 262 00:14:05,083 --> 00:14:06,933 but I think he's a very good witness. 263 00:14:09,013 --> 00:14:11,866 - [Gerry] Jesus gets barely a mention in Josephus. 264 00:14:12,873 --> 00:14:16,713 He has much more to say about a traveling preacher 265 00:14:16,713 --> 00:14:20,576 who, according to the Gospels, prepared the way for Jesus. 266 00:14:22,613 --> 00:14:24,793 I'm heading to the Jordan River 267 00:14:24,793 --> 00:14:26,673 and the place where John the Baptist 268 00:14:26,673 --> 00:14:28,576 is said to have baptized Jesus. 269 00:14:30,173 --> 00:14:33,843 The baptismal site is now in the middle of a huge minefield 270 00:14:33,843 --> 00:14:35,843 on the border between Israel and Jordan. 271 00:14:37,443 --> 00:14:39,956 We need a military escort to get us through. 272 00:14:41,043 --> 00:14:43,626 (gentle music) 273 00:14:46,953 --> 00:14:50,123 John was in the tradition of radical preachers 274 00:14:50,123 --> 00:14:53,393 who withdrew from society and took to the wilderness. 275 00:14:53,393 --> 00:14:56,993 Josephus tells us that he was a spellbinding orator 276 00:14:56,993 --> 00:14:58,953 and drew large crowds. 277 00:14:58,953 --> 00:15:00,513 - [Helen] I mean, his message is that God 278 00:15:00,513 --> 00:15:04,323 is about to intervene in human affairs and change things. 279 00:15:04,323 --> 00:15:07,103 There's gonna be some great cataclysmic judgment 280 00:15:07,103 --> 00:15:10,113 and people are gonna be sorted into those who are in 281 00:15:10,113 --> 00:15:11,213 and those who are out. 282 00:15:14,483 --> 00:15:15,796 Oh, it's horribly dirty. 283 00:15:20,413 --> 00:15:22,013 - Tell you what, it's very cool on the feet 284 00:15:22,013 --> 00:15:24,016 after playing about all day. 285 00:15:26,723 --> 00:15:30,603 So the first mention of Jesus 286 00:15:30,603 --> 00:15:32,673 in terms of a public ministry 287 00:15:33,733 --> 00:15:35,793 comes with his baptism. 288 00:15:35,793 --> 00:15:37,323 - [Helen] Yes, it's striking I think. 289 00:15:37,323 --> 00:15:40,313 All the Gospels start, the public ministry, at any rate, 290 00:15:40,313 --> 00:15:43,703 with John the Baptist and Jesus's baptism 291 00:15:43,703 --> 00:15:46,593 which I think maybe suggests that there was something 292 00:15:46,593 --> 00:15:50,693 about that baptism for Jesus that really started him off 293 00:15:50,693 --> 00:15:52,436 on his independent mission. 294 00:15:56,473 --> 00:16:00,443 - The dawning of the day in a green, fertile land 295 00:16:00,443 --> 00:16:02,346 by the shores of a freshwater lake. 296 00:16:03,803 --> 00:16:07,613 This is where Jesus was raised and where he returned 297 00:16:07,613 --> 00:16:09,226 after his baptism by John. 298 00:16:12,093 --> 00:16:15,256 Well, we're beside the Sea of Galilee. 299 00:16:16,983 --> 00:16:19,853 It's very idyllic, I must say. 300 00:16:19,853 --> 00:16:21,203 Good way to start your day. 301 00:16:23,443 --> 00:16:27,113 This is where Jesus performed many miracles, 302 00:16:27,113 --> 00:16:29,653 up along these shores, 303 00:16:29,653 --> 00:16:31,733 this is where he calmed the waters, 304 00:16:31,733 --> 00:16:34,463 it's where he recruited 305 00:16:34,463 --> 00:16:35,963 the first of his apostles, 306 00:16:35,963 --> 00:16:38,666 poor fishermen working along here. 307 00:16:39,989 --> 00:16:42,572 (gentle music) 308 00:16:45,213 --> 00:16:47,813 Jesus came into Galilee preaching the gospel 309 00:16:47,813 --> 00:16:50,390 of the kingdom of God and saying, 310 00:16:50,390 --> 00:16:54,203 "The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand. 311 00:16:54,203 --> 00:16:57,323 Repent ye and believe the Gospel." 312 00:16:57,323 --> 00:17:01,373 Is there one part of the Gospel where this is crystallized, 313 00:17:01,373 --> 00:17:02,530 if you were gonna say to somebody, 314 00:17:02,530 --> 00:17:06,990 "Look, there's the core of it." 315 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:09,953 - Well, the Sermon on the Mount, of course, 316 00:17:09,953 --> 00:17:12,873 comes to mind immediately, you know. 317 00:17:12,873 --> 00:17:14,173 Sermon on the Mount, as you know, 318 00:17:14,173 --> 00:17:19,173 is a compilation of sayings attributed to our Lord. 319 00:17:19,193 --> 00:17:22,456 - Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. 320 00:17:24,133 --> 00:17:26,876 Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God. 321 00:17:28,522 --> 00:17:29,873 Blessed are the peacemakers 322 00:17:29,873 --> 00:17:32,293 for they shall be called the children of God. 323 00:17:32,293 --> 00:17:34,683 - We're talking here about a radicalization 324 00:17:34,683 --> 00:17:37,963 of the moral law which was expressed 325 00:17:37,963 --> 00:17:41,153 by the Ten Commandments, yeah? 326 00:17:41,153 --> 00:17:44,233 - You've heard that it was said by them of old time 327 00:17:44,233 --> 00:17:46,973 thou shalt not kill, and whoever shall kill 328 00:17:46,973 --> 00:17:48,666 shall be in danger of judgment, 329 00:17:49,933 --> 00:17:51,156 but I say unto you, 330 00:17:52,003 --> 00:17:54,903 that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause 331 00:17:55,823 --> 00:17:58,403 shall be in danger of the judgment. 332 00:17:58,403 --> 00:18:00,523 You've heard that it has been said, 333 00:18:00,523 --> 00:18:02,473 an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, 334 00:18:03,503 --> 00:18:07,323 but I say unto you, that ye resist not evil 335 00:18:07,323 --> 00:18:09,843 but whoever shall smite thee on the right cheek 336 00:18:09,843 --> 00:18:12,383 turn to him the other also. 337 00:18:12,383 --> 00:18:15,443 You have heard and have been said, I shall love thy neighbor 338 00:18:15,443 --> 00:18:20,103 and kill thy enemy but I say unto you, love your enemies. 339 00:18:20,103 --> 00:18:23,803 - You asked me what is the core of Jesus's message. 340 00:18:23,803 --> 00:18:25,096 I think it's forgiveness. 341 00:18:26,622 --> 00:18:29,703 That we ourselves recognize we need forgiveness. 342 00:18:29,703 --> 00:18:30,953 We're none of us perfect. 343 00:18:31,823 --> 00:18:33,036 We've all made mistakes. 344 00:18:34,023 --> 00:18:35,523 We have to forgive each other. 345 00:18:37,181 --> 00:18:40,431 (gentle curious music) 346 00:18:47,138 --> 00:18:48,583 - I think the message of repentance, 347 00:18:48,583 --> 00:18:52,223 the message of forgiveness, 348 00:18:52,223 --> 00:18:54,346 are deeply personal concepts. 349 00:18:55,993 --> 00:18:57,676 Bad things have been done to me. 350 00:19:00,043 --> 00:19:01,906 I have forgiven those who did it. 351 00:19:03,333 --> 00:19:05,513 I did it in the first instance for me. 352 00:19:05,513 --> 00:19:07,503 I didn't do it for them, I did it for me 353 00:19:07,503 --> 00:19:10,256 because I didn't want to become corroded. 354 00:19:13,632 --> 00:19:16,215 (gentle music) 355 00:19:19,413 --> 00:19:23,503 I've met some of the people who beat me senseless 356 00:19:23,503 --> 00:19:25,243 one or two occasions 357 00:19:25,243 --> 00:19:28,263 and I helped negotiate a good friendly agreement 358 00:19:28,263 --> 00:19:30,513 and got the people who shot me out of prison. 359 00:19:38,823 --> 00:19:41,913 I don't forgive, and I haven't come to terms, 360 00:19:41,913 --> 00:19:44,303 and I still have a sense of outrage 361 00:19:44,303 --> 00:19:46,193 about the conditions that were created 362 00:19:46,193 --> 00:19:48,383 by those in powerful positions 363 00:19:48,383 --> 00:19:51,913 who put one side against the other, who sectarianized it, 364 00:19:51,913 --> 00:19:53,333 who exploited the differences, 365 00:19:53,333 --> 00:19:56,933 who brought in all of their technology and so on, 366 00:19:56,933 --> 00:19:58,553 much like those who actually 367 00:19:58,553 --> 00:20:02,996 had to take a conscious decision to construct the cross. 368 00:20:04,446 --> 00:20:07,113 (wistful music) 369 00:20:10,733 --> 00:20:12,543 - [Dan] Statistics say the IRA was responsible 370 00:20:12,543 --> 00:20:15,723 for more than 600 civilian deaths. 371 00:20:15,723 --> 00:20:18,533 Do you repent of your support for those who shot 372 00:20:18,533 --> 00:20:20,453 and bombed people during the conflict? 373 00:20:20,453 --> 00:20:24,953 - Well I don't attempt to justify the actions. 374 00:20:24,953 --> 00:20:29,253 In fact, I've been very critical of some of the actions 375 00:20:29,253 --> 00:20:32,383 but I do believe that it was legitimate 376 00:20:32,383 --> 00:20:35,529 to resort to armed actions 377 00:20:35,529 --> 00:20:37,723 and that that was politically defensible. 378 00:20:37,723 --> 00:20:39,713 And I haven't changed my mind in that 379 00:20:39,713 --> 00:20:42,903 I would love that there had been another way, 380 00:20:42,903 --> 00:20:44,903 but I don't live in that world. 381 00:20:44,903 --> 00:20:46,249 I live in the practical world 382 00:20:46,249 --> 00:20:50,083 and I was a part of that constituency 383 00:20:50,083 --> 00:20:52,376 which put together another way. 384 00:20:55,483 --> 00:20:58,633 According to the Gospels, large crowds flocked 385 00:20:58,633 --> 00:21:01,416 to the shores of Galilee to hear Jesus preach. 386 00:21:02,753 --> 00:21:06,053 Meanwhile, John the Baptist was about to pay a high price 387 00:21:06,053 --> 00:21:07,436 for his popularity. 388 00:21:08,873 --> 00:21:12,233 He'd been arrested on the orders of Herod Antipas, 389 00:21:12,233 --> 00:21:15,986 the ruler of Galilee and a puppet of the Romans. 390 00:21:17,043 --> 00:21:18,933 - Yes, well Josephus says quite clearly 391 00:21:18,933 --> 00:21:21,203 that Herod Antipas put him in chains 392 00:21:21,203 --> 00:21:23,243 and took him to the fortress of Machaerus 393 00:21:23,243 --> 00:21:25,273 because he was attracting large crowds. 394 00:21:25,273 --> 00:21:26,846 - And he was executed. 395 00:21:28,083 --> 00:21:32,743 Jesus must have known that he was on the same path. 396 00:21:32,743 --> 00:21:34,543 - I think you're right, and also, I mean, 397 00:21:34,543 --> 00:21:35,873 it seems to be just a fact 398 00:21:35,873 --> 00:21:40,333 that most of these holy men do end up being killed. 399 00:21:40,333 --> 00:21:42,523 - Sometime after hearing about the execution 400 00:21:42,523 --> 00:21:46,783 of John the Baptist, Jesus left Galilee and headed south 401 00:21:46,783 --> 00:21:49,573 to the city at the heart of the Jewish world. 402 00:21:49,573 --> 00:21:51,773 He knew there would be no return. 403 00:21:51,773 --> 00:21:53,523 As we say in Irish, (speaks Irish). 404 00:21:55,522 --> 00:21:57,483 The die was cast. 405 00:21:57,483 --> 00:22:00,653 Jesus began to explain to his disciples 406 00:22:00,653 --> 00:22:02,763 that he must go to Jerusalem 407 00:22:02,763 --> 00:22:05,193 and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, 408 00:22:05,193 --> 00:22:08,153 chief priests, and teachers of the law, 409 00:22:08,153 --> 00:22:09,323 and that he must be killed 410 00:22:09,323 --> 00:22:12,816 and on the third day, be raised to life. 411 00:22:13,954 --> 00:22:17,371 (people singing faintly) 412 00:22:19,923 --> 00:22:21,793 Tradition has it that Jesus arrived 413 00:22:21,793 --> 00:22:23,406 in Jerusalem on a Sunday. 414 00:22:24,503 --> 00:22:27,913 Less than a week later, his life would be over, 415 00:22:27,913 --> 00:22:31,566 nailed to a cross and left to die in agony. 416 00:22:33,053 --> 00:22:35,553 What did he do that led to him being executed 417 00:22:36,493 --> 00:22:40,443 in this very, very brutal, public way 418 00:22:40,443 --> 00:22:43,616 and who was it that murdered him? 419 00:22:47,213 --> 00:22:49,043 The last week of the life of Jesus 420 00:22:49,043 --> 00:22:51,393 played out during Passover, 421 00:22:51,393 --> 00:22:53,603 the feast celebrating the liberation of the Jews 422 00:22:53,603 --> 00:22:55,371 from enslavement in Egypt. 423 00:22:55,371 --> 00:22:57,954 (gentle music) 424 00:23:00,113 --> 00:23:01,863 The city was overrun with pilgrims 425 00:23:01,863 --> 00:23:03,963 heading for the great temple of Jerusalem. 426 00:23:07,073 --> 00:23:11,663 Daniel Schwartz is a historian at the Hebrew University. 427 00:23:11,663 --> 00:23:12,783 Shalom. 428 00:23:12,783 --> 00:23:15,073 - [Daniel] This was the core of Judaism in Jesus's time, 429 00:23:15,073 --> 00:23:17,447 this was the house of God. 430 00:23:17,447 --> 00:23:19,243 - This is the temple that Jesus came through? 431 00:23:19,243 --> 00:23:22,123 - Yes, this is the temple now, 432 00:23:22,123 --> 00:23:24,355 the temple isn't there anymore. 433 00:23:24,355 --> 00:23:26,143 - What would Passover have been like here, 434 00:23:26,143 --> 00:23:28,633 with every family or every Jewish person 435 00:23:28,633 --> 00:23:31,193 coming to make sacrifice? 436 00:23:31,193 --> 00:23:35,393 - Passover was typically the major pilgrimage festival 437 00:23:35,393 --> 00:23:37,553 of the year and the population of Jerusalem 438 00:23:37,553 --> 00:23:42,553 might be two or three time larger its usual size. 439 00:23:43,753 --> 00:23:45,783 This would have been a market street in front of us 440 00:23:45,783 --> 00:23:46,846 before you get to the temple now. 441 00:23:46,846 --> 00:23:50,273 They would be full of people who are buying food 442 00:23:50,273 --> 00:23:51,113 for their stay here, 443 00:23:51,113 --> 00:23:53,226 who are buying sacrificial animals 444 00:23:53,226 --> 00:23:54,353 to take with them to the temple, 445 00:23:54,353 --> 00:23:55,733 who are changing money 446 00:23:55,733 --> 00:23:57,433 because they came from wherever they came from 447 00:23:57,433 --> 00:23:59,893 and they need to use the local currency. 448 00:23:59,893 --> 00:24:02,573 - [Gerry] In Jesus's day, the Jews were desperately hoping 449 00:24:02,573 --> 00:24:05,586 for a leader to free them from Roman occupation. 450 00:24:06,503 --> 00:24:08,053 - The Roman soldiers would be there 451 00:24:08,053 --> 00:24:12,423 because when you get thousands of Jews together on a holiday 452 00:24:12,423 --> 00:24:14,443 which is in memory of the redemption 453 00:24:14,443 --> 00:24:16,953 of the Jews from enslavement to the Egyptians, 454 00:24:16,953 --> 00:24:18,743 it doesn't take very much imagination 455 00:24:18,743 --> 00:24:20,583 to turn it into a holiday which is 456 00:24:23,253 --> 00:24:24,593 giving room for hope 457 00:24:25,453 --> 00:24:28,326 for redemption from enslavement to the Romans. 458 00:24:31,173 --> 00:24:35,356 - Into this tense and threatening situation came Jesus. 459 00:24:38,113 --> 00:24:40,413 Jesus entered the temple area 460 00:24:40,413 --> 00:24:43,606 and drove out all those who were buying and selling there. 461 00:24:44,543 --> 00:24:46,683 He overturned the tables of the money changers 462 00:24:46,683 --> 00:24:49,310 and the benches of those selling dogs. 463 00:24:49,310 --> 00:24:51,560 "It is written," he said to them, 464 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,293 "My house will be called the house of prayer 465 00:24:54,293 --> 00:24:57,253 but you are making it a den of robbers." 466 00:24:57,253 --> 00:24:59,913 Jesus was defying the chief priests, 467 00:24:59,913 --> 00:25:02,753 an elite group who collaborated with the Romans 468 00:25:02,753 --> 00:25:04,093 to rule Judea. 469 00:25:04,093 --> 00:25:06,923 But the chief priests, the teachers of the law, 470 00:25:06,923 --> 00:25:10,953 and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him, 471 00:25:10,953 --> 00:25:13,753 yet they could not find any way to do it 472 00:25:13,753 --> 00:25:16,546 because all the people hung on his words. 473 00:25:18,283 --> 00:25:20,953 With Roman soldiers on riot duty, 474 00:25:20,953 --> 00:25:23,013 a preacher stirring up the Passover crowd 475 00:25:23,013 --> 00:25:25,133 could trigger a blood bath. 476 00:25:25,133 --> 00:25:27,073 The chief priests and their leader, 477 00:25:27,073 --> 00:25:29,703 Caiaphas, decided to act. 478 00:25:29,703 --> 00:25:32,333 - We actually have quite an interesting little detail 479 00:25:32,333 --> 00:25:34,493 about Caiaphas in John's gospel. 480 00:25:34,493 --> 00:25:38,273 He gives an account of a gathering of the Jewish council 481 00:25:38,273 --> 00:25:41,603 and they say, "If we allow Jesus to carry on like this, 482 00:25:41,603 --> 00:25:42,763 the Romans are gonna come 483 00:25:42,763 --> 00:25:46,123 and they'll destroy our temple and our nation." 484 00:25:46,123 --> 00:25:48,273 And Caiaphas apparently stands up and says, 485 00:25:49,420 --> 00:25:51,483 "You don't realize that it's better 486 00:25:51,483 --> 00:25:53,603 that one man die for the people 487 00:25:53,603 --> 00:25:55,863 than that the whole nation should perish." 488 00:25:55,863 --> 00:25:58,223 - The problem with that, Helen, 489 00:25:58,223 --> 00:26:02,783 is elites never present their case 490 00:26:02,783 --> 00:26:06,033 as anything other than being for the common good, 491 00:26:06,033 --> 00:26:07,513 for the public interest. 492 00:26:07,513 --> 00:26:09,113 - But he could he not genuinely 493 00:26:09,113 --> 00:26:12,263 have wanted to safeguard Jewish life? 494 00:26:12,263 --> 00:26:15,583 I mean, you only need look what happens 30, 40 years later 495 00:26:15,583 --> 00:26:19,453 in the Jewish Revolt when people do revolt against Rome 496 00:26:19,453 --> 00:26:23,363 and Rome sends in the legions sweeping through the country 497 00:26:23,363 --> 00:26:27,066 and tens of thousands of people end up dying. 498 00:26:28,073 --> 00:26:29,283 - [Gerry] The fact is, 499 00:26:29,283 --> 00:26:31,993 Jesus was taking on the establishment. 500 00:26:31,993 --> 00:26:34,616 The outcome was clear and he knew it. 501 00:26:37,933 --> 00:26:39,863 Shimon Gibson, the archeologist, 502 00:26:39,863 --> 00:26:42,033 has been looking for the place where Jesus was tried 503 00:26:42,033 --> 00:26:44,943 by the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate. 504 00:26:44,943 --> 00:26:48,543 - This is where I think the trial of Jesus took place. 505 00:26:48,543 --> 00:26:51,953 Jesus would have walked down these steps. 506 00:26:51,953 --> 00:26:54,973 John talks about the trial taking place at Gabbatha 507 00:26:54,973 --> 00:26:58,033 which means little hillock or a rocky area. 508 00:26:58,033 --> 00:27:00,013 Well, here you have that rocky area. 509 00:27:00,013 --> 00:27:01,376 So we're here at the spot. 510 00:27:02,543 --> 00:27:04,593 And of course, this was blocked up later. 511 00:27:05,613 --> 00:27:06,563 - [Gerry] Pontius Pilate was the most 512 00:27:06,563 --> 00:27:08,206 powerful man in the land. 513 00:27:09,043 --> 00:27:13,193 He would decide whether Jesus would live or die. 514 00:27:13,193 --> 00:27:15,853 - Behold, nothing deserving of death 515 00:27:15,853 --> 00:27:17,603 has been done by this man. 516 00:27:17,603 --> 00:27:20,493 - The Gospels of course suggest that he's a weakling 517 00:27:20,493 --> 00:27:22,003 easily pushed over by the people 518 00:27:22,003 --> 00:27:23,343 he's supposed to be governing. 519 00:27:23,343 --> 00:27:25,983 The Pilate that you get in Josephus, 520 00:27:25,983 --> 00:27:29,466 you can't really imagine him being so uncertain, 521 00:27:30,483 --> 00:27:32,853 so lacking in any kind of judgment, 522 00:27:32,853 --> 00:27:35,423 but there's an even better source on Pilate 523 00:27:35,423 --> 00:27:37,713 from Philo of Alexandria. 524 00:27:37,713 --> 00:27:39,283 He's actually a contemporary, 525 00:27:39,283 --> 00:27:42,973 an exact contemporary of Jesus, 526 00:27:42,973 --> 00:27:46,083 a Jew living in Alexandria in Egypt, 527 00:27:46,083 --> 00:27:49,153 and he has a passage which actually describes 528 00:27:49,153 --> 00:27:53,583 Pilate's character, his venality, his violence, his thefts, 529 00:27:53,583 --> 00:27:55,943 his assaults, his abusive behavior, 530 00:27:55,943 --> 00:27:58,733 his frequent executions of untried prisoners, 531 00:27:58,733 --> 00:28:01,433 and his endless savage ferocity. 532 00:28:01,433 --> 00:28:02,843 - [Gerry] But the Pilate of the Gospels 533 00:28:02,843 --> 00:28:05,393 is anything but ferocious. 534 00:28:05,393 --> 00:28:07,333 - You have a custom that I should release 535 00:28:07,333 --> 00:28:09,943 for you one man at the Passover. 536 00:28:09,943 --> 00:28:12,293 - A man called Barabbas was imprisoned 537 00:28:12,293 --> 00:28:13,753 with the insurrectionists 538 00:28:13,753 --> 00:28:15,836 who had committed murder in the uprising. 539 00:28:16,763 --> 00:28:19,046 The crowd come up and ask Pilate to do for them 540 00:28:19,046 --> 00:28:20,992 what he usually did. 541 00:28:20,992 --> 00:28:22,745 - Give us Barabbas. 542 00:28:22,745 --> 00:28:23,578 - Give us Barabbas! 543 00:28:23,578 --> 00:28:25,063 - [Gerry] What does the historical record say 544 00:28:25,063 --> 00:28:28,473 about the practice described in the Gospels 545 00:28:28,473 --> 00:28:31,273 of releasing a prisoner at the feast of Passover? 546 00:28:31,273 --> 00:28:32,263 - People actually have asked, 547 00:28:32,263 --> 00:28:33,723 was there indeed such a practice? 548 00:28:33,723 --> 00:28:36,103 Is there any evidence for such a practice? 549 00:28:36,103 --> 00:28:39,273 And the answer is no, this is the only case. 550 00:28:39,273 --> 00:28:40,893 - I don't think he would have been released 551 00:28:40,893 --> 00:28:43,263 because in those days, insurgents, 552 00:28:43,263 --> 00:28:45,243 those who were defying the authorities, 553 00:28:45,243 --> 00:28:46,743 both the Jewish authorities 554 00:28:46,743 --> 00:28:48,653 and the Roman authorities especially, 555 00:28:48,653 --> 00:28:51,026 would not have been released. 556 00:28:52,043 --> 00:28:53,876 - And Barabbas was an insurrectionist. 557 00:28:53,876 --> 00:28:56,803 He wasn't a thief, he wasn't a common thief, he was a... 558 00:28:56,803 --> 00:29:00,743 - Well, he would be what we describe today as a terrorist, 559 00:29:00,743 --> 00:29:02,743 in modern terms. 560 00:29:02,743 --> 00:29:05,563 And for the Roman authorities, 561 00:29:05,563 --> 00:29:08,153 terrorists were to be stamped out. 562 00:29:08,153 --> 00:29:11,173 - But from someone else's viewpoint, 563 00:29:11,173 --> 00:29:12,983 he may well have been a freedom fighter. 564 00:29:12,983 --> 00:29:15,643 - Yes, from somebody else's point of view. 565 00:29:15,643 --> 00:29:18,016 - I am innocent of this man's blood. 566 00:29:19,193 --> 00:29:22,463 - All the people answered that his blood be on us 567 00:29:22,463 --> 00:29:23,606 and on our children. 568 00:29:24,773 --> 00:29:28,203 So why do the Gospel writers whitewash Pilate 569 00:29:28,203 --> 00:29:31,486 and free him the entire Jewish people instead? 570 00:29:32,713 --> 00:29:34,563 - They have this huge problem on their hands 571 00:29:34,563 --> 00:29:37,853 that they're wanting to say that Jesus, the Messiah, 572 00:29:37,853 --> 00:29:40,513 was somebody who ended up on a Roman cross. 573 00:29:40,513 --> 00:29:42,363 - The Gospel writers are trying to convert 574 00:29:42,363 --> 00:29:44,313 as many Romans as possible 575 00:29:44,313 --> 00:29:47,593 while also trying to avoid being thrown to the lions. 576 00:29:47,593 --> 00:29:49,603 - I'm standing on some soapbox in Rome 577 00:29:49,603 --> 00:29:53,513 in the 70s or the 80s or the 90s of the 1st century, 578 00:29:53,513 --> 00:29:56,923 preaching about Jesus of Nazareth was a wonderful guy, 579 00:29:56,923 --> 00:29:58,513 he was the son of God, 580 00:29:58,513 --> 00:30:00,800 and people say, "Oh wonderful, where is he?" 581 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:01,700 And we say, "He's dead." 582 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:02,533 "Oh, was he sick?" 583 00:30:02,533 --> 00:30:04,600 "No, he was executed." 584 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:05,610 "Who executed him?" 585 00:30:05,610 --> 00:30:07,483 "The Roman governor." 586 00:30:07,483 --> 00:30:09,363 So the next sentence on the part of the preacher 587 00:30:09,363 --> 00:30:11,753 is going to have to be, yes, but it was a mistake. 588 00:30:11,753 --> 00:30:13,733 The only reason Pilate executed him 589 00:30:13,733 --> 00:30:15,113 is because he was sort of spineless 590 00:30:15,113 --> 00:30:17,293 and being pushed around by an Eastern mob 591 00:30:17,293 --> 00:30:19,313 and seems like this Barabbas scene, 592 00:30:19,313 --> 00:30:21,783 just like scenes, oh, I'm going to wash my hands, 593 00:30:21,783 --> 00:30:24,803 function that way to allow for a group, 594 00:30:24,803 --> 00:30:27,213 which any way is a suspect in the Roman Empire, 595 00:30:27,213 --> 00:30:29,973 somehow to try and survive 596 00:30:29,973 --> 00:30:33,866 by pushing off the guilt to other parties. 597 00:30:35,113 --> 00:30:36,683 - As we say in Irish, (speaks Irish). 598 00:30:40,993 --> 00:30:43,656 If you're not strong, you have to be clever. 599 00:30:44,503 --> 00:30:48,363 So the blame goes onto the Jewish people 600 00:30:48,363 --> 00:30:50,283 and the irony of that situation 601 00:30:50,283 --> 00:30:52,713 is that's totally and utterly contrary 602 00:30:52,713 --> 00:30:55,533 to the type of tolerance, love thy neighbor, 603 00:30:55,533 --> 00:30:58,703 inclusivity that Jesus preached 604 00:31:00,018 --> 00:31:03,796 right through all of his public ministry. 605 00:31:05,293 --> 00:31:06,976 From the sixth hour onto the ninth hour, 606 00:31:06,976 --> 00:31:08,826 darkness came over all the land. 607 00:31:10,030 --> 00:31:13,250 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 608 00:31:13,250 --> 00:31:17,070 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" 609 00:31:18,243 --> 00:31:21,813 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, 610 00:31:21,813 --> 00:31:23,484 he gave up the spirit. 611 00:31:23,484 --> 00:31:26,651 (soft dramatic music) 612 00:31:27,623 --> 00:31:29,793 Some may quibble about the historical accuracy 613 00:31:29,793 --> 00:31:31,613 of the Gospels. 614 00:31:31,613 --> 00:31:33,096 That's not the issue for me. 615 00:31:34,073 --> 00:31:35,633 The Gospels were about promoting 616 00:31:35,633 --> 00:31:37,716 a new religion, Christianity. 617 00:31:38,873 --> 00:31:42,543 But Jesus's core teachings, the words he spoke, 618 00:31:42,543 --> 00:31:46,266 remain as powerful today as they were 2,000 years ago. 619 00:31:48,573 --> 00:31:50,030 You have heard that it was said, 620 00:31:50,030 --> 00:31:52,933 "Love your neighbor and hit your enemy," 621 00:31:52,933 --> 00:31:55,983 but I tell you, love your enemies, 622 00:31:55,983 --> 00:32:00,253 bless those who curse you, do good to those who hit you, 623 00:32:00,253 --> 00:32:02,503 and pray for those who persecute you 624 00:32:03,343 --> 00:32:05,643 that you may be sons of your father in Heaven. 625 00:32:06,763 --> 00:32:10,503 He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good 626 00:32:10,503 --> 00:32:13,346 and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 627 00:32:16,153 --> 00:32:18,483 Tough words to live up to 628 00:32:18,483 --> 00:32:20,803 whether you're an Irish political activist 629 00:32:20,803 --> 00:32:25,083 or a Palestinian follower of Jesus like Saleem Manaer, 630 00:32:25,083 --> 00:32:28,143 who teaches at the Bible college in Bethlehem, 631 00:32:28,143 --> 00:32:31,193 hemmed in by Israeli settlements. 632 00:32:31,193 --> 00:32:33,366 - We deal, as Palestinian Christians, 633 00:32:35,398 --> 00:32:37,843 with another spiritual dimension 634 00:32:37,843 --> 00:32:42,843 that the people, that they're coming and settling there, 635 00:32:43,283 --> 00:32:47,263 and the people that confiscating Palestinian land 636 00:32:47,263 --> 00:32:50,963 are the people that brought us our spiritual heritage. 637 00:32:50,963 --> 00:32:52,333 Jesus is a Jew. 638 00:32:52,333 --> 00:32:53,923 - He was a Jew, absolutely. 639 00:32:53,923 --> 00:32:56,903 What would Jesus say today? 640 00:32:56,903 --> 00:32:59,103 - Jesus will speak the word of the prophets. 641 00:33:00,023 --> 00:33:04,533 Jesus would say, "Remember your strength during Egypt. 642 00:33:04,533 --> 00:33:08,283 You were powerless and now we are powerful. 643 00:33:08,283 --> 00:33:11,657 You're misusing your power against the weak." 644 00:33:11,657 --> 00:33:14,483 - And what would he say to people in the Palestinians side 645 00:33:14,483 --> 00:33:17,973 who would resort to armed actions or to- 646 00:33:17,973 --> 00:33:19,863 - Holding arm against the Israeli 647 00:33:19,863 --> 00:33:21,483 like holding arms against the Romans, 648 00:33:21,483 --> 00:33:22,773 you don't have a chance. 649 00:33:22,773 --> 00:33:25,063 They will crush you, they're more powerful than you- 650 00:33:25,063 --> 00:33:27,163 - Is that a tactical question? 651 00:33:27,163 --> 00:33:30,393 - No, it's also moral, ethical questions, 652 00:33:30,393 --> 00:33:34,343 because if you resist evil, you will have the tit and tat, 653 00:33:34,343 --> 00:33:36,406 the cycle of revenge and retaliation. 654 00:33:37,253 --> 00:33:38,663 - [Gerry] Saleem runs an organization 655 00:33:38,663 --> 00:33:42,553 which promotes dialogue between Palestinians and Israelis. 656 00:33:42,553 --> 00:33:45,348 Its name in Arabic means forgiveness. 657 00:33:45,348 --> 00:33:47,931 (gentle music) 658 00:33:57,893 --> 00:34:00,673 (explosion booms) 659 00:34:00,673 --> 00:34:02,036 I'm not a pacifist. 660 00:34:02,933 --> 00:34:04,863 I don't believe that nonviolent resistance 661 00:34:04,863 --> 00:34:07,496 was an option for us 40 years ago. 662 00:34:09,453 --> 00:34:11,273 The war is over, 663 00:34:11,273 --> 00:34:14,123 but we're all still on a journey to freedom, 664 00:34:14,123 --> 00:34:16,953 and after decades of violent conflict, 665 00:34:16,953 --> 00:34:21,826 all of us got plenty to forgive and to be forgiven for. 666 00:34:22,956 --> 00:34:27,956 (alarm blaring) (people yelling) 667 00:34:35,933 --> 00:34:36,900 - [Dan] To those people who are watching this 668 00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:40,383 who say, "Well, Gerry Adams, you defend the IRA." 669 00:34:40,383 --> 00:34:43,893 In what way did you follow Jesus when defending the IRA? 670 00:34:43,893 --> 00:34:45,423 - Well, by my own rights, 671 00:34:45,423 --> 00:34:49,313 but let's not get carried away again 672 00:34:49,313 --> 00:34:52,223 with any of this. 673 00:34:52,223 --> 00:34:54,113 I'm a political activist. 674 00:34:54,113 --> 00:34:55,993 My religious beliefs are private 675 00:34:55,993 --> 00:34:57,573 and personal to me. 676 00:34:57,573 --> 00:34:59,073 Obviously, my core values, 677 00:34:59,073 --> 00:35:01,766 which are shaped by my religious beliefs, 678 00:35:03,668 --> 00:35:07,436 have to percolate and influence my political thinking. 679 00:35:08,313 --> 00:35:12,913 Sometimes, in tune with the Jesus message, 680 00:35:12,913 --> 00:35:14,443 sometimes not. 681 00:35:14,443 --> 00:35:15,993 - [Dan] But if you have this moral code 682 00:35:15,993 --> 00:35:17,483 based on the teachings of Jesus, 683 00:35:17,483 --> 00:35:19,303 surely you can't pick and choose 684 00:35:19,303 --> 00:35:21,333 which bits that you observe when, I mean. 685 00:35:21,333 --> 00:35:22,196 - Well, you can. 686 00:35:23,103 --> 00:35:26,183 You mightn't be right to do it, but we all do it. 687 00:35:26,183 --> 00:35:29,533 You know, we all do it in different aspects of our life 688 00:35:29,533 --> 00:35:33,203 because we're human and because we're not perfect 689 00:35:33,203 --> 00:35:35,603 and because we do our best in the situations. 690 00:35:35,603 --> 00:35:39,863 The fact is, when people are treated badly 691 00:35:39,863 --> 00:35:42,403 as people were treated here, 692 00:35:42,403 --> 00:35:45,493 and remember, an English government 693 00:35:45,493 --> 00:35:48,893 has no entitlement whatsoever to partake in Ireland 694 00:35:48,893 --> 00:35:51,543 or be involved in Irish affairs. 695 00:35:51,543 --> 00:35:56,073 If there's no one out there pushing for 696 00:35:56,073 --> 00:36:00,223 a peaceful democratic way to resolve those injustices, 697 00:36:00,223 --> 00:36:03,123 then as night follows day, 698 00:36:03,123 --> 00:36:06,263 you will resort to armed actions. 699 00:36:06,263 --> 00:36:08,533 - [Newscaster] Belfast, Shankill Road was devastated 700 00:36:08,533 --> 00:36:10,953 just after one o'clock this afternoon. 701 00:36:10,953 --> 00:36:13,583 The IRA used the simplest of tactics, 702 00:36:13,583 --> 00:36:15,623 hand-delivering a bomb across the counter 703 00:36:15,623 --> 00:36:17,273 at a fish and chips shop. 704 00:36:17,273 --> 00:36:19,926 Among the dead, the chip shop owner and his daughter. 705 00:36:21,703 --> 00:36:23,653 - My wife was murdered by the IRA 706 00:36:23,653 --> 00:36:26,266 on the 23rd of October 1993. 707 00:36:27,753 --> 00:36:30,123 It was a Saturday, and she was killed 708 00:36:30,123 --> 00:36:33,423 along with her father and eight other people, 709 00:36:33,423 --> 00:36:36,573 including one of the bombers was killed as well. 710 00:36:36,573 --> 00:36:39,643 - That Saturday morning, two young IRA volunteers, 711 00:36:39,643 --> 00:36:41,673 Thomas Begley and Sean Kelly, 712 00:36:41,673 --> 00:36:44,753 carried a bomb into a fish shop on the Shankill Road, 713 00:36:44,753 --> 00:36:48,883 a unionist area of my constituency in Belfast. 714 00:36:48,883 --> 00:36:52,093 Their target was a meeting of unionist paramilitary leaders 715 00:36:52,093 --> 00:36:54,303 in an office in the first floor. 716 00:36:54,303 --> 00:36:56,893 The bomb went off prematurely. 717 00:36:56,893 --> 00:37:00,246 Sean Kelly survived. Thomas Begley was killed. 718 00:37:02,408 --> 00:37:04,133 It was a stupid operation. 719 00:37:04,133 --> 00:37:05,823 It didn't take into account 720 00:37:07,623 --> 00:37:10,533 the safety of the civilians, 721 00:37:10,533 --> 00:37:13,863 and, of course, Thomas gets the blame for this, 722 00:37:13,863 --> 00:37:14,883 and clearly, 723 00:37:17,793 --> 00:37:19,793 the blame is one which has to be shared. 724 00:37:21,363 --> 00:37:24,183 And it was an operation which was just 725 00:37:24,183 --> 00:37:27,103 fundamentally flawed and fundamentally wrong. 726 00:37:27,103 --> 00:37:29,983 - Gerry Adams carried the coffin of Thomas Begley 727 00:37:29,983 --> 00:37:33,833 and I think at that time, I felt that particularly tough. 728 00:37:33,833 --> 00:37:38,833 So for many, many years I would have blamed Gerry Adams 729 00:37:39,273 --> 00:37:40,613 not, as I said, for the bomb, 730 00:37:40,613 --> 00:37:42,423 but certainly for being part of an organization 731 00:37:42,423 --> 00:37:47,423 which felt that they could go ahead and do that, you know? 732 00:37:47,513 --> 00:37:50,154 - [Gerry] It's the measure of how far we've all come 733 00:37:50,154 --> 00:37:52,933 in the last 16 years than Alan McBride 734 00:37:52,933 --> 00:37:56,733 now feels able to sit down with me and talk. 735 00:37:56,733 --> 00:37:58,123 - Three and a half thousand people murdered 736 00:37:58,123 --> 00:37:59,263 and 40,000 people injured, 737 00:37:59,263 --> 00:38:01,613 and all those young people that were incarcerated, you know? 738 00:38:01,613 --> 00:38:03,556 I don't think it was worth one of their lives, 739 00:38:03,556 --> 00:38:05,280 I'll be honest with you, Ger. 740 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,823 You don't win wars by just bombing people into oblivion. 741 00:38:08,823 --> 00:38:11,243 - [Newscaster] Gerry Adam himself later said his sympathy 742 00:38:11,243 --> 00:38:13,803 was with all victims and under the government ban, 743 00:38:13,803 --> 00:38:16,043 we can't broadcast his voice. 744 00:38:16,043 --> 00:38:19,163 - Are we gonna blame the young man, a 23 year old 745 00:38:19,163 --> 00:38:22,243 from a poor working-class background in Belfast 746 00:38:22,243 --> 00:38:23,723 for the conflict in this country? 747 00:38:23,723 --> 00:38:26,063 My sympathy is with everyone who was killed. 748 00:38:26,063 --> 00:38:27,548 - Not everybody was innocent 749 00:38:27,548 --> 00:38:28,903 and not everybody's guilty, you know? 750 00:38:28,903 --> 00:38:30,343 We weren't on the same page. 751 00:38:30,343 --> 00:38:33,543 To suggest that my wife and Thomas Begley or Sean Kelly 752 00:38:33,543 --> 00:38:35,767 were on the same page in terms of their guilt 753 00:38:35,767 --> 00:38:37,853 or their innocence or their victimhood is nonsense, 754 00:38:37,853 --> 00:38:39,573 absolute nonsense to me. 755 00:38:39,573 --> 00:38:41,973 - Obviously, Thomas Begley has to be responsible 756 00:38:41,973 --> 00:38:45,313 for his action and all of us have to be responsible 757 00:38:45,313 --> 00:38:46,213 individually for our action, 758 00:38:46,213 --> 00:38:49,133 but this was a corporate IRA responsibility. 759 00:38:49,133 --> 00:38:51,983 It wasn't just these two relatively young volunteers 760 00:38:51,983 --> 00:38:56,163 who had been sent out obviously to do what they did. 761 00:38:56,163 --> 00:39:00,076 His family, you know, the family didn't do it. 762 00:39:00,076 --> 00:39:01,463 - This is where people make the mistake. 763 00:39:01,463 --> 00:39:03,133 I don't think we should be looking at it 764 00:39:03,133 --> 00:39:05,043 in terms of what happened, 765 00:39:05,043 --> 00:39:07,943 we should be looking at it in terms of what's left behind 766 00:39:07,943 --> 00:39:09,093 and what the needs are. 767 00:39:09,093 --> 00:39:12,883 I know from my perspective, that Mrs. Begley lost her son 768 00:39:13,733 --> 00:39:15,233 that day on the Shankill Road. 769 00:39:16,663 --> 00:39:17,773 Not only did she lose her son, 770 00:39:17,773 --> 00:39:19,443 but she has to live the rest of her days 771 00:39:19,443 --> 00:39:21,533 with the knowledge that her son killed nine other people 772 00:39:21,533 --> 00:39:23,363 and I think that must be, if it was me, 773 00:39:23,363 --> 00:39:26,703 it would be unbearable to even think about that. 774 00:39:26,703 --> 00:39:29,303 So society needs to give Mrs. Begley 775 00:39:29,303 --> 00:39:30,733 whatever help that we can give her 776 00:39:30,733 --> 00:39:34,303 to help her come to terms with her own hurt and her pain. 777 00:39:34,303 --> 00:39:37,913 - Sean Kelly was released with other political prisoners 778 00:39:37,913 --> 00:39:39,823 under the Good Friday Agreement. 779 00:39:39,823 --> 00:39:40,943 - I don't know that I've ever said 780 00:39:40,943 --> 00:39:45,559 that I've forgiven Sean Kelly for what happened. 781 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:47,623 He's somebody that I don't really care much about, 782 00:39:47,623 --> 00:39:48,456 to be honest with you, 783 00:39:48,456 --> 00:39:49,973 and also as well, the people I do care about, 784 00:39:49,973 --> 00:39:52,493 you know, my family, my mother-in-law, 785 00:39:52,493 --> 00:39:56,873 I mean, they would never forgive me if I forgive him. 786 00:39:56,873 --> 00:39:58,466 I'm not hellbent on revenge. 787 00:39:59,460 --> 00:40:01,223 I don't think I have one bone in my body 788 00:40:01,223 --> 00:40:03,773 which is about taking revenge. 789 00:40:03,773 --> 00:40:08,223 I think we need to be more like Jesus 790 00:40:08,223 --> 00:40:11,563 and be not so religious. 791 00:40:11,563 --> 00:40:13,463 That sounds like a contradiction in terms. 792 00:40:13,463 --> 00:40:18,243 I think the religious aspect sometimes can keep us apart. 793 00:40:18,243 --> 00:40:21,813 - Those who can find it within themselves 794 00:40:21,813 --> 00:40:23,846 to do what you're doing, 795 00:40:26,393 --> 00:40:28,003 I think are probably more true 796 00:40:28,003 --> 00:40:32,043 to what is a Jesus message 797 00:40:33,113 --> 00:40:34,563 than others, including myself. 798 00:40:34,563 --> 00:40:37,063 - I know that where we are today is hell of a lot better 799 00:40:37,063 --> 00:40:38,743 than where we were 16 years ago 800 00:40:38,743 --> 00:40:40,693 when I started this particular journey, 801 00:40:41,949 --> 00:40:43,193 and I think you've played your part in that, 802 00:40:43,193 --> 00:40:44,263 so fair play. 803 00:40:44,263 --> 00:40:45,350 - Well thanks to you, 804 00:40:47,666 --> 00:40:49,536 for the example you're giving people like me. 805 00:40:49,536 --> 00:40:50,768 - [Alan] Okay, indeed. 806 00:40:50,768 --> 00:40:52,073 - Okay. 807 00:40:52,073 --> 00:40:55,633 Five years before Alan lost his wife to an IRA bomb, 808 00:40:55,633 --> 00:40:57,993 my good friend and solicitor Pat Finucane 809 00:40:57,993 --> 00:41:00,703 was murdered by a UDA death squad. 810 00:41:00,703 --> 00:41:02,336 I carried his coffin also. 811 00:41:03,533 --> 00:41:05,873 Pat was at home with his three young children 812 00:41:05,873 --> 00:41:07,036 and his wife Geraldine. 813 00:41:08,013 --> 00:41:12,193 - We were having dinner, Sunday dinner, 814 00:41:12,193 --> 00:41:14,766 just Pat and myself and the three children, 815 00:41:15,943 --> 00:41:18,776 and there was a bang, 816 00:41:20,823 --> 00:41:22,503 and Pat and I jumped up, 817 00:41:22,503 --> 00:41:26,616 and the next thing, there was just gunfire everywhere. 818 00:41:30,793 --> 00:41:32,866 And Pat was dead on the kitchen floor. 819 00:41:34,463 --> 00:41:37,203 - [Gerry] Geraldine, who was also wounded in the attack, 820 00:41:37,203 --> 00:41:39,203 is certain that the British authorities 821 00:41:39,203 --> 00:41:41,326 colluded in her husband's murder. 822 00:41:42,513 --> 00:41:45,983 - I will never, to my dying day, 823 00:41:45,983 --> 00:41:50,983 forgive anyone who was involved in Pat's murder. 824 00:41:52,033 --> 00:41:55,023 From the gunmen right to the people, 825 00:41:55,023 --> 00:41:58,613 perhaps at cabinet level, who orchestrated this. 826 00:41:58,613 --> 00:41:59,743 I will never forgive them. 827 00:41:59,743 --> 00:42:02,766 They changed my life forever, 828 00:42:03,873 --> 00:42:05,643 but that doesn't mean to say 829 00:42:05,643 --> 00:42:10,443 that I want revenge. 830 00:42:10,443 --> 00:42:12,006 I don't want to harm them, 831 00:42:12,913 --> 00:42:14,633 but I do want to make them accountable 832 00:42:14,633 --> 00:42:17,193 for what they did, for their actions. 833 00:42:17,193 --> 00:42:21,203 Their actions have given me a life that I didn't want. 834 00:42:21,203 --> 00:42:24,783 - [Gerry] Do you have any sort of affinity with Jesus, 835 00:42:24,783 --> 00:42:27,733 with the Gospel stories, with any of that? 836 00:42:31,583 --> 00:42:35,363 - I would follow Christian principles 837 00:42:35,363 --> 00:42:38,663 but I couldn't go so far as to say I'm a Christian. 838 00:42:38,663 --> 00:42:43,143 - And one of the big challenges in those teachings 839 00:42:44,383 --> 00:42:47,983 is the little one which says, "Love thy enemy." 840 00:42:47,983 --> 00:42:50,323 You know, it's easy to love your friends 841 00:42:50,323 --> 00:42:52,653 but what's your take on that? 842 00:42:57,626 --> 00:43:00,123 - I might not be able to love my enemy, 843 00:43:00,123 --> 00:43:02,010 but I can learn to live with them. 844 00:43:03,775 --> 00:43:06,673 - (indistinct) the grim truths of war, 845 00:43:06,673 --> 00:43:08,596 loving your enemy is a lot to ask. 846 00:43:11,333 --> 00:43:13,063 Alan and Geraldine may never forgive 847 00:43:13,063 --> 00:43:14,863 the men who murdered their partners, 848 00:43:15,873 --> 00:43:17,909 but they don't want revenge. 849 00:43:17,909 --> 00:43:22,563 (choir singing in foreign language) 850 00:43:22,563 --> 00:43:26,700 I remember a poem of W.B. Yeats and a line in it, 851 00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:30,310 "Too long a sacrifice makes a stone of the heart." 852 00:43:31,583 --> 00:43:32,416 You know, war is so cruel, 853 00:43:32,416 --> 00:43:34,793 something I've said many times, 854 00:43:34,793 --> 00:43:37,843 of why there aren't many brave people in war, 855 00:43:37,843 --> 00:43:39,553 we should not glamorize it. 856 00:43:39,553 --> 00:43:41,983 It's a horrible business. 857 00:43:41,983 --> 00:43:43,093 You have to harden yourself 858 00:43:43,093 --> 00:43:45,483 because it isn't a natural thing to go out 859 00:43:45,483 --> 00:43:49,473 and do harm to other human beings. 860 00:43:49,473 --> 00:43:52,923 It isn't a natural thing to engage in planned violence. 861 00:43:52,923 --> 00:43:55,133 There were times when I was afraid my heart would break. 862 00:43:55,133 --> 00:43:58,363 And I can be as angry and as ruthless and as focused 863 00:43:58,363 --> 00:44:01,625 and as deliberate in terms of what I have to do 864 00:44:01,625 --> 00:44:05,606 as anyone else, but I have a fairly logical mind, 865 00:44:06,453 --> 00:44:11,186 so even though I could be angry at something that was done, 866 00:44:12,973 --> 00:44:16,023 through the stupidity of the side that I supported, 867 00:44:16,023 --> 00:44:20,406 or by those who were opposing us, 868 00:44:21,473 --> 00:44:26,006 I never felt entirely brutalized by what was going on. 869 00:44:27,483 --> 00:44:31,283 My service to my country, to the peace process, 870 00:44:31,283 --> 00:44:33,463 is in the ability of people like me 871 00:44:33,463 --> 00:44:34,963 to bring other people with us. 872 00:44:35,833 --> 00:44:36,716 And that's the core of it, 873 00:44:36,716 --> 00:44:39,673 that there was at least an Irish Republican leadership 874 00:44:39,673 --> 00:44:43,113 which was prepared when they got an alternative. 875 00:44:43,113 --> 00:44:43,946 That they went for peace. 876 00:44:43,946 --> 00:44:45,113 They could have went for continued war 877 00:44:45,113 --> 00:44:46,973 but they went for peace. 878 00:44:46,973 --> 00:44:49,783 And this was put very well to me by an associate 879 00:44:49,783 --> 00:44:51,843 I was trying to help with some other peace processes 880 00:44:51,843 --> 00:44:53,963 in other parts of the world, 881 00:44:53,963 --> 00:44:55,520 and someone said to me, 882 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,110 "It needs generals to make peace, okay?" 883 00:45:07,343 --> 00:45:08,603 - [Dan] Do you feel generally that you would 884 00:45:08,603 --> 00:45:11,703 be more at peace if people forgave you for what you think? 885 00:45:11,703 --> 00:45:15,323 - I am perfectly at peace, Dan. (chuckles) Absolutely. 886 00:45:15,323 --> 00:45:19,473 I believe 887 00:45:19,473 --> 00:45:22,873 and I've made mistakes and done things wrong, 888 00:45:22,873 --> 00:45:26,923 and not for a second do I 889 00:45:28,033 --> 00:45:31,363 stand over everything that I ever did or said, 890 00:45:31,363 --> 00:45:35,543 because, you know, everything's always right at the time. 891 00:45:35,543 --> 00:45:37,793 I regret very much that anyone 892 00:45:39,823 --> 00:45:41,523 was ever hurt in the situation. 893 00:45:41,523 --> 00:45:44,123 I don't believe that I'm accountable for all of that 894 00:45:45,543 --> 00:45:47,420 but I do understand my responsibilities. 895 00:45:47,420 --> 00:45:52,420 But the one thing that I have always liked 896 00:45:52,583 --> 00:45:56,726 about Jesus is his lack of condemnation, 897 00:45:57,753 --> 00:45:59,326 his lack of denunciation, 898 00:46:00,463 --> 00:46:02,986 the way he mixes with all the wrong people, 899 00:46:04,423 --> 00:46:09,283 the way, even though he sets out rules for life, 900 00:46:09,283 --> 00:46:10,820 he knows that we're imperfect 901 00:46:10,820 --> 00:46:13,013 and we're not going to fulfill it 902 00:46:13,013 --> 00:46:14,263 so he gives us another chance 903 00:46:14,263 --> 00:46:16,532 and another chance and another chance. 904 00:46:16,532 --> 00:46:18,949 (soft music) 905 00:46:28,681 --> 00:46:32,993 You know, you can go into a Cathedral, into a church 906 00:46:32,993 --> 00:46:35,083 which is a nice thing to do, and pray and reflect, 907 00:46:35,083 --> 00:46:38,296 but here is a big Cathedral, here. 908 00:46:39,233 --> 00:46:43,643 And I certainly feel closer to God here 909 00:46:43,643 --> 00:46:46,986 than perhaps in many other places. 910 00:46:49,313 --> 00:46:51,163 If you see something of great beauty, 911 00:46:52,043 --> 00:46:56,033 the light in the sky and just a particular moment 912 00:46:56,033 --> 00:46:57,423 where it cheers you up, 913 00:46:57,423 --> 00:46:58,820 where you're struck by the beauty of it 914 00:46:58,820 --> 00:47:00,633 and there's no explanation for it. 915 00:47:00,633 --> 00:47:04,343 Just catch a wonderful moment in nature, 916 00:47:04,343 --> 00:47:05,176 and if you savor that, 917 00:47:05,176 --> 00:47:07,153 that's as much of a prayer as it is 918 00:47:07,153 --> 00:47:09,933 to kneel down than to go through a long litany 919 00:47:09,933 --> 00:47:12,866 of the trimmings on the rosary. 920 00:47:17,328 --> 00:47:20,995 (dramatic orchestral music)