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The following programme contains
descriptions of sexual violence.

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(BIRDSONG)

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This is the house
that Julian was brought up in.

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We used to get pheasants and rabbits
and all sorts of things, you know.

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Yes, it was lovely.

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Just the job for somebody
who was nature-crazy.

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(CHUCKLES)

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DIRECTOR: Can you show us
his bedroom, which one it is?

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It would have been over there.

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What I've got in there
are a lot of his things

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and I've got all his big
collection of records

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and tapes and things.

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It was punk. It was wonderful.
(CHUCKLES)

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Do you like it?
I do, yes.

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I did at the time, and I still do.

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Does it remind you of him
when you play them?

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I guess it does, yes.

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(MELANCHOLIC MUSIC)

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What do you want me to do,
start from the top?

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Yes, please.

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Could you tell me
what it is you're reading?

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My statement from...

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to the court, I think.

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Erm...

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"Julian was my only son,

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my only child.

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He was a young man with all
his life in front of him.

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This was a particularly
vindictive murder

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perpetrated entirely
for her personal gain.

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To think that my son should be
killed in this calculated

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and cruel way torments me.

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The grief, the pain

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and the torment will not go away.

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The wounds are still open,

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I miss him so much.

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I am devastated."

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It was a man and a woman,
police officers,

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that turned up.

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They told me he was dead.

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(PROJECTOR REEL WHIRS)

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Days passed and I couldn't
tell you what I did.

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The police, they told me
"Well, maybe,

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you know, he did commit suicide."

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I wasn't going to have that.

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I said, "Look, you know,
this really cannot be true."

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How could you know that?
Gut feeling.

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# JEFF BECK FT. JOSS STONE:
I Put A Spell On You #

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# I put a spell on you

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# Because you're mine

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# You better stop the things you do

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# I said watch out

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# I ain't lyin'

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# Cos you're mine

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# Hey, yeah

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# You're mine, yeah

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# Because you're

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# Mine #

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The story of Dena
is very complicated.

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Very confusing.
(DOOR SHUTS)

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People just think
you're making it up,

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because if you wrote this as a book,

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it would sound too far-fetched.

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(OMINOUS MUSIC)

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In 1994 on the 4th of July,

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I went to Dena's house
in Douglas Close in Yapton.

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So, I went to the house
to take a witness statement

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from Dena about the death
of her husband Julian Webb.

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A post mortem was carried out,

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when Julian's body had been
brought to the hospital.

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And it established he had died

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through taking an overdose of drugs.

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How they'd been administered was
what we were trying to establish.

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What were your first
impressions of her?

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Oh, I'd say she was very...
she was very nice.

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And she was willing to talk.

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Her account was that he had committed
suicide by taking an overdose.

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And there was a bottle of spirits,
and drugs had been found.

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She said he was depressed

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and he'd been depressed
for some time.

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Did that seem believable to you?

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Er, yeah.
I've got to be absolutely honest,

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we didn't disbelieve it.

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But she didn't seem
to be the grieving widow

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or how you would
expect somebody to be

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four days after
the person that they...

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presumably love the most
in the world had died.

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She said not very long before

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she made the phone call
to the paramedics,

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he was still alive and was snoring.

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The paramedics turned up
very quickly,

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seven or eight minutes
from the initial call.

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But when they moved him
off of the bed onto the floor,

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rigor mortis had set in.

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That would indicate that
he had been dead for several hours.

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I realised that there were
a number of inconsistencies

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in Dena's statement.

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It was not an open-and-shut case
of somebody committing suicide.

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It needed a lot more investigation.

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But it was quite difficult,
to be honest with you,

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because, you know,
the only witness to this was Dena.

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I was basically Julian's
snotty-nosed little cousin

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that used to, you know,
come down and annoy him.

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He was obviously older.

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He was into his bodybuilding,
he was quite a fit bloke.

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He used to drive
a nice red Triumph Stag,

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which I was never
allowed anywhere near.

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It was quite a summer's day.

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My mum had told me,
"Come and meet Dena."

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I kind of almost felt
a little bit sorry for her.

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You know, it's the 'girlfriend
being grilled' kind of thing.

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I mean, I just thought
she was a fairly ordinary person.

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She was at the Woolwich
Building Society.

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He was up in the offices
of the West Sussex Gazette,

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which was just
down the road a wee bit.

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And I think they used
to meet at lunch time

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in the pub across the road.

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He was quite a shy person,

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so I don't think he was one
to go chatting up girls.

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Julian lived at home until,
you know, he'd met Dena.

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She was divorced.

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She had her little boy, Darren,

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from her previous marriage.

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He was a lovely little child.

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He might have been about three
at that time.

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But I found Dena to be

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absolutely humourless.

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And, you know, I mean,
some of the things she said

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were so far-fetched,
they could not be true.

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My auntie, Rosie,

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she took an instant dislike to Dena.

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I wondered whether it was just,
I don't know, you know...

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an overprotective mum, kind of,

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just not being keen on her.

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Within less than a year
they were engaged.

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I said, "For God's sake,
Julian, give it more time.

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What's the rush?"

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It was probably the fact
that his friends were all

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married or getting married.

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And of course, I think she saw him

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as someone she could manipulate.

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And I'm sure she was very charming.

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But you know, that's all part
of the game, isn't it?

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(GENTLE, BRIGHT MUSIC)

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They got married
in a registry office.

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It wasn't a big wedding.

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And then they went
on a honeymoon to Florida.

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He loved it,
Julian absolutely loved it.

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He loved his fishing,
he was a really good fisherman.

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(INDISTINCT CHATTER, LAUGHTER)

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JULIAN: Huh?
MAN: Good catch.

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And that's when she suggested
that why don't they move there?

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He didn't tell me
he was thinking of emigrating.

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I expect he didn't cos he probably
thought I would have said, "Don't."

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(CHUCKLES)

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Dena suggested running, you know,
a fishing charter business,

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taking tourists out
on fishing boats.

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You know, what a...
That's a dream job for Julian.

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Did it seem like Julian
and Dena were in love?

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"Whatever love is,"
to quote Prince Charles.

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(CHUCKLES) Um...

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I suppose the answer to that is no.

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No real affection shown,

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but perhaps there wouldn't be
in front of me. Who knows?

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At this point for you,
no alarm bells?

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No, no, no. Not for me. I didn't...

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I just thought, you know,
"He's married, he's in love."

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You know, start of a new life.

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But then a few months
after the wedding,

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she was diagnosed with cancer

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Then I thought, "Oh, well,
if she hasn't got long to live,

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we'll be rid of her soon."

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(CHUCKLES)

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I laugh, but it's, um...

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a way of surviving.

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(EERIE MUSIC)

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(LIGHTER CLICKS)

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Within a matter of months,
after she got cancer,

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she was saying that
her ex-husband Lee was about

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and he was beating her up
and that he was threatening

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and they had to keep
on the move to avoid him.

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I kept trying to contact Julian,

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and I couldn't.

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So, they, instead of
living in their home...

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Yes.

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..had spent time on the run?
Yes.

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It would have been,
you know, several weeks,

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which was why I was getting worried.

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I thought her ex-husband was,

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you know,
one of these big bruiser types.

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And when Julian told me

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she'd got a panic button
that the police had installed,

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I thought if he turned up
and found Julian,

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then he'd beat him up.

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Dena accused Lee Wyatt
of several assaults.

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He had used a police truncheon
to indecently assault her.

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She'd had cigarettes
stubbed out on her.

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They were very serious allegations.

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Lee was hugely dangerous.

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So yeah, there was a lot of concern,

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for Julian's safety,
but also for Dena's.

201
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Officers investigating Dena's
allegations had been looking

202
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for Lee for over a year
without any trace of him.

203
00:13:29,163 --> 00:13:32,203
And now,
with the death of Julian Webb,

204
00:13:32,243 --> 00:13:35,563
we needed to find him
and we needed to find him fast.

205
00:13:47,043 --> 00:13:49,443
Dena and I both went
to the same school.

206
00:13:51,483 --> 00:13:55,803
We worked together
at the Halifax bank in the 80s.

207
00:13:56,723 --> 00:13:59,643
She was very clever,

208
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a very good cashier.

209
00:14:01,803 --> 00:14:05,723
We'd always try and wangle it
that we got the same lunch break.

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00:14:05,763 --> 00:14:08,603
So, we'd go around the shops

211
00:14:08,643 --> 00:14:12,723
and just do, I'd say,
girl stuff really.

212
00:14:13,763 --> 00:14:16,643
So, we had a laugh together.

213
00:14:16,683 --> 00:14:19,643
She genuinely was a nice person.

214
00:14:21,643 --> 00:14:24,323
The first time I met Lee,

215
00:14:24,363 --> 00:14:27,483
I remember him vividly,
with like, sort of, blonde hair.

216
00:14:27,523 --> 00:14:30,043
Like a nice-looking guy.

217
00:14:30,083 --> 00:14:32,483
You couldn't really not like him.

218
00:14:34,763 --> 00:14:37,883
But all of a sudden,

219
00:14:37,923 --> 00:14:40,323
I started to get phone calls

220
00:14:40,363 --> 00:14:42,523
from Dena.

221
00:14:42,563 --> 00:14:45,723
"Lee's done this. Lee's done that."

222
00:14:46,643 --> 00:14:49,043
And they weren't pleasant things.

223
00:14:50,843 --> 00:14:53,083
Lee had raped her.

224
00:14:53,123 --> 00:14:56,643
It is awful.
It's beyond all comprehension.

225
00:14:56,683 --> 00:15:00,443
It was like this guy
had turned into a monster.

226
00:15:05,883 --> 00:15:09,163
As part of the investigation
into the Julian Webb death,

227
00:15:09,203 --> 00:15:11,563
one of the things we wanted to do
was to establish

228
00:15:11,603 --> 00:15:13,443
where Lee Wyatt was.

229
00:15:14,963 --> 00:15:17,603
And he was out as 'Wanted.'

230
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So, if he got stopped in the street,

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he would be arrested.

232
00:15:27,003 --> 00:15:29,363
But...

233
00:15:29,403 --> 00:15:31,403
he was nowhere to be found.

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00:15:33,283 --> 00:15:36,523
Dena had also received
death threats from Lee Wyatt.

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00:15:37,803 --> 00:15:40,003
DENA (ON PHONE): Hello?
LEE: Is that Dena?

236
00:15:40,043 --> 00:15:43,243
Yeah, is that Lee?
Ahh, you remember!

237
00:15:43,283 --> 00:15:45,923
Roses are red, violence is black,

238
00:15:45,963 --> 00:15:48,323
you need arse shafting as a payback.

239
00:15:50,443 --> 00:15:53,163
When you actually hear
these threatening phone calls,

240
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it sends a chill down your spine.

241
00:15:55,123 --> 00:15:57,123
(CAR ENGINE STARTS)

242
00:16:00,963 --> 00:16:02,963
We had to find him.

243
00:16:21,443 --> 00:16:25,123
Are you conscious of
how the story sounds?

244
00:16:25,163 --> 00:16:27,563
I am because it sounds mental.

245
00:16:27,603 --> 00:16:30,163
People will be looking at the,
"Oh, is he telling the truth?"

246
00:16:30,203 --> 00:16:32,723
This is what really happened.
"Oh, look, he coughed there,"

247
00:16:32,763 --> 00:16:36,203
or, "His eyes have moved over..."
Everyone is an armchair detective,

248
00:16:36,243 --> 00:16:40,523
and they all think they know. Hey,
that's human life. We all do it.

249
00:16:40,563 --> 00:16:43,483
So just accept it for what it is,
the unbelievable

250
00:16:43,523 --> 00:16:45,523
and it's truth.

251
00:16:45,563 --> 00:16:47,923
This is what happened.

252
00:16:47,963 --> 00:16:50,923
(CURIOUS MUSIC)

253
00:17:01,443 --> 00:17:04,283
I've never been on a blind date
before in my life.

254
00:17:05,483 --> 00:17:07,362
There was butterflies.

255
00:17:09,203 --> 00:17:11,843
Eventually we got to the theatre.

256
00:17:12,723 --> 00:17:15,803
It's about a murder scene,
a sort of whodunit.

257
00:17:16,763 --> 00:17:19,603
Dena... (CHUCKLES)

258
00:17:19,642 --> 00:17:21,963
She probably revelled in it.

259
00:17:22,003 --> 00:17:24,923
The fact that, "Ah, yeah,
this is good. Right up my street."

260
00:17:27,243 --> 00:17:29,243
We kissed that night.

261
00:17:32,283 --> 00:17:34,763
It's hard to say,

262
00:17:34,803 --> 00:17:37,923
but all I will say is that
there was a stage where

263
00:17:37,963 --> 00:17:39,963
it was all genuine.

264
00:17:41,323 --> 00:17:43,323
I loved Dena.

265
00:17:47,323 --> 00:17:49,923
Yeah.

266
00:17:53,243 --> 00:17:55,803
MAN: My 21st birthday party,

267
00:17:55,843 --> 00:17:57,803
I went dressed as a bumblebee

268
00:17:57,843 --> 00:18:01,723
and he and Dena made themselves
teddy bear outfits.

269
00:18:05,083 --> 00:18:09,003
She was an attractive,
blonde young lady

270
00:18:09,043 --> 00:18:11,923
with a seemingly very
bubbly personality.

271
00:18:13,123 --> 00:18:16,363
I mean, there was nothing there
that raised my suspicions.

272
00:18:17,763 --> 00:18:20,403
My cousin was just getting
into a serious relationship,

273
00:18:20,443 --> 00:18:22,763
and he was going to settle down.

274
00:18:25,043 --> 00:18:27,403
So we both dressed up
as teddy bears,

275
00:18:27,443 --> 00:18:29,883
sort of holding hands
walking into there.

276
00:18:29,923 --> 00:18:34,483
Well, ten minutes into
the dance floor and dancing, wow!

277
00:18:35,643 --> 00:18:39,083
I wish I'd taken a bit more
underarm perspirant or aftershave,

278
00:18:39,123 --> 00:18:42,323
cos it was a bit hot in there.
(CHUCKLES)

279
00:18:44,883 --> 00:18:46,883
(BRIGHT MUSIC)

280
00:18:52,083 --> 00:18:55,363
Real happy memories
were buying the house.

281
00:18:56,243 --> 00:18:59,403
She would help me out,
doing the painting.

282
00:19:01,923 --> 00:19:04,683
We were doing things together.

283
00:19:05,723 --> 00:19:08,203
She was into soft toys,
making soft toys,

284
00:19:08,243 --> 00:19:11,163
and everyone always
used to remark on it.

285
00:19:11,203 --> 00:19:14,203
and I thought,
with my sales background,

286
00:19:14,243 --> 00:19:16,643
I could retail them.

287
00:19:17,563 --> 00:19:20,323
In the beginning,
we were quite successful.

288
00:19:21,323 --> 00:19:23,563
We went on holidays together.

289
00:19:26,643 --> 00:19:29,163
Dena knew that I'd
always wanted kids.

290
00:19:31,603 --> 00:19:34,123
When my son was born, Darren,

291
00:19:34,163 --> 00:19:37,083
that was the happiest
point of my life.

292
00:19:37,123 --> 00:19:39,443
Yeah.

293
00:19:47,683 --> 00:19:49,963
So, for a couple of years,

294
00:19:50,003 --> 00:19:52,483
my life was pretty OK.

295
00:19:52,523 --> 00:19:54,523
I was doing alright.

296
00:19:56,443 --> 00:19:58,563
Did he seem besotted?

297
00:20:00,043 --> 00:20:02,043
In retrospect, yes.

298
00:20:03,123 --> 00:20:05,403
And I think, to be honest,
to carry on,

299
00:20:05,443 --> 00:20:08,603
to follow the path that he followed,

300
00:20:08,643 --> 00:20:12,283
then he had to have been
completely besotted.

301
00:20:13,803 --> 00:20:17,163
Anyway, one of these soft toys

302
00:20:17,203 --> 00:20:19,803
was a little leprechaun,
about so big.

303
00:20:19,843 --> 00:20:23,483
I was selling them at £25 a time.
(CASH REGISTER DINGS)

304
00:20:23,523 --> 00:20:26,843
One of the directors that
owned the business premises

305
00:20:26,883 --> 00:20:28,843
where we were renting out

306
00:20:28,883 --> 00:20:31,363
just came up to me and he said,

307
00:20:31,403 --> 00:20:33,923
"I want 25,000."

308
00:20:33,963 --> 00:20:36,003
We shook hands.
(CASH REGISTER DINGS)

309
00:20:36,043 --> 00:20:40,403
Next minute,
a letter turns up from the BBC

310
00:20:40,443 --> 00:20:44,963
that they want to do a cartoon
series of Shaun the Leprechaun,

311
00:20:45,003 --> 00:20:46,923
and it was worth £250,000.

312
00:20:46,963 --> 00:20:49,603
Wow!
(CASH REGISTER DINGS)

313
00:20:50,923 --> 00:20:54,643
Then Dena told me
someone in Walt Disney

314
00:20:54,683 --> 00:20:56,723
saw what we had to offer,

315
00:20:56,763 --> 00:20:59,323
and they want to buy
Shaun the Leprechaun,

316
00:20:59,363 --> 00:21:01,523
and the sum is between 40

317
00:21:01,563 --> 00:21:04,243
and 50 million pounds.
(CASH REGISTER DINGS)

318
00:21:04,283 --> 00:21:07,483
It was like, "Phwoar, what?!"

319
00:21:08,403 --> 00:21:10,563
Dena would be on the phone

320
00:21:10,603 --> 00:21:13,083
talking with Hilary, the solicitor.

321
00:21:13,923 --> 00:21:16,963
To be honest, she was the person
that was in the office

322
00:21:17,003 --> 00:21:19,083
and in charge of the phone,

323
00:21:19,123 --> 00:21:21,123
so I just let her carry on that way.

324
00:21:21,163 --> 00:21:23,603
(SCOFFS)

325
00:21:23,643 --> 00:21:25,923
It's interesting that
he didn't share that news

326
00:21:25,963 --> 00:21:28,603
with you or anyone else.
I get the feeling,

327
00:21:28,643 --> 00:21:31,203
or I got the feeling subsequently

328
00:21:31,243 --> 00:21:34,963
that once she started
spinning that story,

329
00:21:35,003 --> 00:21:37,403
the disappearance was
quite quick after that.

330
00:21:45,083 --> 00:21:47,923
Dena sat me down and she said,

331
00:21:47,963 --> 00:21:50,603
"Our lives are in danger."

332
00:21:50,643 --> 00:21:54,843
She said that the Mafia

333
00:21:54,883 --> 00:21:58,643
want the money from Walt Disney.

334
00:21:58,683 --> 00:22:02,323
And I said,
"What Mafia? Who is this?"

335
00:22:02,363 --> 00:22:06,043
Now I'm thinking
the Mafia from the States.

336
00:22:06,083 --> 00:22:08,763
But no, it was the Irish Mafia.

337
00:22:08,803 --> 00:22:13,083
The Irish IRA, another form
of criminal underworld gang.

338
00:22:14,923 --> 00:22:17,363
The last thing they want
is an Englishman

339
00:22:17,403 --> 00:22:20,563
making money out of
their own folklore item.

340
00:22:22,123 --> 00:22:25,403
And what they're gonna do is kill

341
00:22:25,443 --> 00:22:28,603
Dena and my son

342
00:22:28,643 --> 00:22:31,003
if they don't get the money.

343
00:22:31,923 --> 00:22:34,043
And she said,

344
00:22:34,083 --> 00:22:38,243
"You've got to either leave
the country or go somewhere.

345
00:22:38,283 --> 00:22:42,563
And try and set a life up for us
wherever you're going."

346
00:22:42,603 --> 00:22:45,083
And I trusted her.

347
00:22:45,123 --> 00:22:47,323
Why would I not?

348
00:22:51,523 --> 00:22:53,763
I was terrified
in what was gonna happen,

349
00:22:53,803 --> 00:22:56,003
not necessarily to me,
but to Darren.

350
00:23:00,243 --> 00:23:03,163
When you left, was that
the last time that you saw Darren?

351
00:23:03,203 --> 00:23:05,203
Yeah.

352
00:23:09,963 --> 00:23:14,003
By that point,
he is completely controlled by Dena.

353
00:23:18,083 --> 00:23:20,203
Nobody had had any contact
with him whatsoever.

354
00:23:20,243 --> 00:23:22,243
We didn't know where he was.

355
00:23:22,283 --> 00:23:26,283
No phone calls. No letters.
No... zero communication.

356
00:23:27,323 --> 00:23:29,483
He was just a ghost.

357
00:23:31,163 --> 00:23:33,123
Just a ghost.

358
00:23:37,523 --> 00:23:40,003
At that point,

359
00:23:40,043 --> 00:23:42,563
I was in Cornwall.

360
00:23:42,603 --> 00:23:45,523
So many things had already gone on,

361
00:23:45,563 --> 00:23:48,403
my mind was just in circles,
everywhere.

362
00:23:50,443 --> 00:23:54,083
Cos she said, "You can never
ring the house phone,

363
00:23:54,123 --> 00:23:56,483
because it's being tapped."

364
00:23:57,683 --> 00:24:01,363
I had a list of about
half a dozen phone boxes.

365
00:24:01,403 --> 00:24:05,803
She had to give me a day,
a date and a specific time.

366
00:24:05,843 --> 00:24:08,283
I'd be sitting in the phone box
waiting for her to ring me.

367
00:24:08,323 --> 00:24:10,403
(PHONE RINGS)
Ring, ring. Pick it up.

368
00:24:10,443 --> 00:24:13,843
And she kept on saying,
"Don't give up on us now!

369
00:24:13,883 --> 00:24:16,123
You've got to keep
this whole thing going,

370
00:24:16,163 --> 00:24:20,483
for the lives of Darren and
ourselves so we can be together."

371
00:24:20,523 --> 00:24:23,763
I mean, she said that more
than a dozen times. All the time.

372
00:24:23,803 --> 00:24:27,523
I remember on one occasion,
she was literally crying.

373
00:24:28,563 --> 00:24:30,683
I was crying as well

374
00:24:30,723 --> 00:24:33,963
for the fact that I hadn't
seen my son for a long time

375
00:24:34,003 --> 00:24:36,323
and the fact,
am I ever going to see him?

376
00:24:36,363 --> 00:24:40,963
I just believed everything that
she was telling me was the truth.

377
00:24:43,443 --> 00:24:45,523
At some stage,

378
00:24:45,563 --> 00:24:49,243
she said that there were
people watching the house.

379
00:24:49,283 --> 00:24:52,923
A protection squad looking
after Dena and my son.

380
00:24:55,723 --> 00:24:59,563
I was told this guy
that was part of the team,

381
00:24:59,603 --> 00:25:02,803
that was protecting us,
was called Julian Webb.

382
00:25:02,843 --> 00:25:04,843
(OMINOUS MUSIC)

383
00:25:05,923 --> 00:25:09,283
Dena said to me that
I was going to take his name.

384
00:25:10,403 --> 00:25:13,123
I was going to become Julian Webb.

385
00:25:13,163 --> 00:25:16,523
I would be taking on
the whole identity.

386
00:25:16,563 --> 00:25:18,763
And he would just be

387
00:25:18,803 --> 00:25:22,323
entering back
into the protection squad,

388
00:25:22,363 --> 00:25:24,043
protecting others.

389
00:25:25,163 --> 00:25:28,003
And I'm thinking,
"I'll go along with it."

390
00:25:30,323 --> 00:25:34,843
To get a new ID
in the name of Julian Webb.

391
00:25:48,403 --> 00:25:50,523
(PROJECTOR REEL WHIRRING)

392
00:25:59,803 --> 00:26:02,283
Little group of Psathyrella.

393
00:26:03,163 --> 00:26:05,643
This is the horn of plenty.

394
00:26:05,683 --> 00:26:08,763
It's very tasty, I gather,
to sort of put into stews.

395
00:26:10,003 --> 00:26:13,923
But in France, they also call it
"the trumpet of death."

396
00:26:13,963 --> 00:26:15,963
(CHUCKLES)

397
00:26:16,003 --> 00:26:17,723
Oh.

398
00:26:17,763 --> 00:26:20,083
That was a gap,
I must have missed one.

399
00:26:23,283 --> 00:26:27,283
If I'm out on the nature reserve
and so on,

400
00:26:27,323 --> 00:26:29,443
I've always got
my photographic gear.

401
00:26:32,003 --> 00:26:34,443
There's all sorts
of things that I see.

402
00:26:34,483 --> 00:26:37,403
You just think, "I wish
Julian could have seen that."

403
00:26:38,643 --> 00:26:42,803
And of course, we both of us had
this great love of wildlife.

404
00:26:45,643 --> 00:26:48,843
What else makes you remember him?

405
00:26:48,883 --> 00:26:51,643
I suppose absolutely
everything really.

406
00:26:51,683 --> 00:26:54,403
You know, it's one of those things.

407
00:26:54,443 --> 00:26:57,523
You can come round a corner
and see something...

408
00:26:57,563 --> 00:27:00,523
(WHISTLES)
..straight through the heart.

409
00:27:11,243 --> 00:27:14,483
Julian wouldn't have committed
suicide ever. He wasn't that person.

410
00:27:14,523 --> 00:27:17,563
And certainly, even if he was
massively, massively depressed,

411
00:27:17,603 --> 00:27:20,683
which he wasn't because
everything was going right,

412
00:27:20,723 --> 00:27:23,083
it doesn't make any sense.

413
00:27:23,123 --> 00:27:25,523
I mean, I know you can never

414
00:27:25,563 --> 00:27:28,123
completely know another person,

415
00:27:28,163 --> 00:27:31,123
but in the same way
that I could never do it,

416
00:27:31,163 --> 00:27:33,443
I'm quite sure
he could never do it either.

417
00:27:34,563 --> 00:27:37,243
After Julian's death,
we went down to Hampshire

418
00:27:37,283 --> 00:27:39,843
where Julian Webb
was originally from.

419
00:27:41,003 --> 00:27:44,723
We took statements
from friends and family.

420
00:27:45,763 --> 00:27:48,043
Not one person I spoke to said

421
00:27:48,083 --> 00:27:51,403
that they believed he would he would
take his own life through depression.

422
00:27:52,323 --> 00:27:55,203
If Julian had committed suicide,
he would have left a note

423
00:27:55,243 --> 00:27:58,643
or have been telling people he was
considering committing suicide.

424
00:27:58,683 --> 00:28:01,243
He hadn't done that.

425
00:28:01,283 --> 00:28:04,803
That's when it started
becoming really concerning.

426
00:28:04,843 --> 00:28:07,523
This is totally
out of character for him.

427
00:28:08,963 --> 00:28:11,043
So, if it wasn't suicide,

428
00:28:11,083 --> 00:28:13,203
could it have been
an accidental overdose

429
00:28:13,243 --> 00:28:16,363
or had somebody
given him those drugs?

430
00:28:21,523 --> 00:28:25,963
One of the neighbours, he said
that leading up to Julian's death,

431
00:28:26,003 --> 00:28:29,923
Dena and Julian had had
several arguments about money

432
00:28:29,963 --> 00:28:31,963
and he'd heard these.

433
00:28:32,003 --> 00:28:34,003
(MUFFLED ARGUING)

434
00:28:36,843 --> 00:28:39,323
Something happened.

435
00:28:39,363 --> 00:28:42,163
I remember he said...

436
00:28:42,203 --> 00:28:46,043
"I believe marriage is for life,
no matter how difficult it is."

437
00:28:48,843 --> 00:28:51,243
He was not his happy,

438
00:28:51,283 --> 00:28:53,683
ebullient general self.

439
00:28:56,683 --> 00:29:00,643
Did you ever get to find out?
No, I didn't.

440
00:29:04,283 --> 00:29:08,803
Because it was within a matter
of months he was dead.

441
00:29:28,243 --> 00:29:30,843
It was early hours of the morning.

442
00:29:30,883 --> 00:29:33,723
I drove up to Sussex.

443
00:29:33,763 --> 00:29:37,723
I want to protect my son and I'm not
there. How the hell do I do this?

444
00:29:39,043 --> 00:29:41,403
How long is this gonna
keep on going on for?

445
00:29:43,043 --> 00:29:46,843
I want answers cos there's something
not quite right going on here.

446
00:29:48,403 --> 00:29:50,603
Is Dena lying to me?

447
00:29:51,483 --> 00:29:53,763
Would I see my son?

448
00:29:53,803 --> 00:29:56,563
(GENTLE KNOCKING)

449
00:29:57,443 --> 00:29:59,443
I knocked on the door.

450
00:29:59,483 --> 00:30:02,643
It was strange because
she was behaving

451
00:30:02,683 --> 00:30:05,083
weirdly towards me.

452
00:30:05,123 --> 00:30:08,723
"What are you doing here?
You're going to ruin everything."

453
00:30:08,763 --> 00:30:11,283
And I think I said,

454
00:30:11,323 --> 00:30:14,403
"Ruin what? What's going on?"

455
00:30:14,443 --> 00:30:17,643
But she was not telling me nothing.

456
00:30:18,923 --> 00:30:22,883
So, I guess that's because there was
someone else in the property.

457
00:30:25,563 --> 00:30:29,843
I believed that there was
a protection officer called Julian

458
00:30:29,883 --> 00:30:33,843
who was looking after
Darren and Dena.

459
00:30:34,923 --> 00:30:37,963
Well, there was no sign of Julian.

460
00:30:39,803 --> 00:30:41,883
And then she said,

461
00:30:41,923 --> 00:30:44,003
"We'll have to see
one another tomorrow,"

462
00:30:44,043 --> 00:30:46,043
or "I'll talk to you tomorrow."

463
00:30:50,483 --> 00:30:53,243
Did you know he was upstairs
in bed at that point?

464
00:30:53,283 --> 00:30:55,403
No.

465
00:30:55,443 --> 00:30:57,683
I had no idea.

466
00:31:01,723 --> 00:31:03,723
I didn't know what was happening.

467
00:31:12,003 --> 00:31:16,643
I want to ask you about
the last days of Julian's life.

468
00:31:16,683 --> 00:31:19,763
Yes.
It began with...

469
00:31:19,803 --> 00:31:22,523
him not being very well.
Is that right?

470
00:31:22,563 --> 00:31:25,323
I'd been down to the New Forest

471
00:31:25,363 --> 00:31:29,043
and I'd seen these massive carp
in the river at Beaulieu.

472
00:31:30,483 --> 00:31:33,243
And they'd come up
and the big pink mouths,

473
00:31:33,283 --> 00:31:36,923
open mouths waiting for you
to drop something in them and so on,

474
00:31:36,963 --> 00:31:38,883
and I thought he'd like
to know about that.

475
00:31:38,923 --> 00:31:41,403
And I think I phoned him
when I got home.

476
00:31:41,443 --> 00:31:43,883
And she said he was unwell and he...

477
00:31:43,923 --> 00:31:47,883
he'd got a tummy upset
or something and he was in bed.

478
00:31:51,923 --> 00:31:54,643
I get a phone call and it's Dena.

479
00:31:55,963 --> 00:31:59,323
She says, "Oh, Mandy,
Julian's not well."

480
00:31:59,363 --> 00:32:03,163
She said, "Oh, I went up and
he was really, really boiling hot."

481
00:32:03,203 --> 00:32:05,723
She said,
"So I gave him paracetamol,

482
00:32:05,763 --> 00:32:07,763
but then when I went up again,

483
00:32:07,803 --> 00:32:10,363
he was, like, freezing cold."

484
00:32:10,403 --> 00:32:14,283
I'm like, "Maybe you should phone
an ambulance or something?"

485
00:32:14,323 --> 00:32:17,043
And then she went, "Oh, must go,

486
00:32:17,083 --> 00:32:19,323
cos yeah, Dad's coming now".

487
00:32:19,363 --> 00:32:21,723
And then that... that was it.

488
00:32:21,763 --> 00:32:23,763
Nothing.

489
00:32:30,963 --> 00:32:33,083
(PHONE RINGING)

490
00:32:34,923 --> 00:32:37,563
It was his birthday
so I phoned again,

491
00:32:37,603 --> 00:32:40,923
and she said he was very ill
and he was in bed and he was asleep.

492
00:32:43,203 --> 00:32:45,403
She was very chatty then.

493
00:32:45,443 --> 00:32:47,483
More chatty than
I've ever heard her.

494
00:32:49,283 --> 00:32:52,243
And I said,
"Would you go and wake him up

495
00:32:52,283 --> 00:32:55,163
and ask him to speak to me, please?"

496
00:32:55,203 --> 00:32:57,923
And she made all sorts of excuses.

497
00:32:57,963 --> 00:33:01,243
I said, "Look, he's still ill,
phone the doctor."

498
00:33:01,283 --> 00:33:03,283
"Julian wouldn't want the doctor."
I said, "Yes,

499
00:33:03,323 --> 00:33:06,443
he would want the doctor.
Phone the doctor."

500
00:33:06,483 --> 00:33:09,083
And in the middle of that
conversation, she said,

501
00:33:09,123 --> 00:33:11,243
"Umm, oh..." she said,

502
00:33:11,283 --> 00:33:13,483
"He's being very sick."

503
00:33:13,523 --> 00:33:16,483
And put the phone down.

504
00:33:19,323 --> 00:33:22,523
I think he was trying to get down
to the phone to speak to me,

505
00:33:22,563 --> 00:33:24,563
cos he would have known it was me.

506
00:33:29,763 --> 00:33:32,043
I did think of going round there.

507
00:33:35,603 --> 00:33:38,083
I knew there was something wrong.

508
00:33:52,483 --> 00:33:55,123
(THUNDER ROLLING)

509
00:34:10,163 --> 00:34:12,483
(THUNDER CLAPS)

510
00:34:21,843 --> 00:34:23,843
(RAINFALL)

511
00:34:29,282 --> 00:34:31,323
(MELANCHOLIC MUSIC)

512
00:34:36,083 --> 00:34:40,643
At the funeral, I was sort of
living in a zombie limbo.

513
00:34:42,843 --> 00:34:45,242
Cos it's almost unreal.

514
00:34:48,163 --> 00:34:50,923
I think I'm still
in a state of limbo, really.

515
00:34:56,323 --> 00:34:58,323
(RAINFALL CONTINUES)

516
00:35:02,803 --> 00:35:04,803
NICK: It was just horrendous.

517
00:35:08,523 --> 00:35:10,683
Your cousin is dead.

518
00:35:13,523 --> 00:35:17,723
In my heart,
I knew she had done this.

519
00:35:18,803 --> 00:35:22,763
I've never met anyone
who could tell so many lies.

520
00:35:27,083 --> 00:35:29,643
Is Dena a killer?
Is she a mur... you know.

521
00:35:29,683 --> 00:35:32,523
I found it really, really hard.

522
00:35:32,563 --> 00:35:36,123
It was kind of very, very surreal,
very strange,

523
00:35:36,163 --> 00:35:39,483
but Rosie was absolutely adamant.
Absolutely adamant.

524
00:35:44,603 --> 00:35:47,123
Unless someone's found
with a knife in their hand

525
00:35:47,163 --> 00:35:50,683
and standing over the body,
you don't think...

526
00:35:50,723 --> 00:35:52,723
someone would do that.

527
00:35:55,323 --> 00:35:57,883
Julian didn't have
a bad bone in his body.

528
00:35:58,883 --> 00:36:00,883
Why would his wife kill him?

529
00:36:05,123 --> 00:36:08,443
I do remember my partner
went over and spoke

530
00:36:08,483 --> 00:36:11,443
to Dena's family,

531
00:36:11,483 --> 00:36:14,283
saying, "We don't want
any more contact with you."

532
00:36:16,123 --> 00:36:19,643
Her father said to him,
"Just you watch what you're saying."

533
00:36:20,563 --> 00:36:22,603
In sort of desperation,

534
00:36:22,643 --> 00:36:24,963
sort of bullying sort of terms.

535
00:36:26,643 --> 00:36:28,643
It did strike me as odd.

536
00:36:38,683 --> 00:36:41,283
How soon after Julian's death

537
00:36:41,323 --> 00:36:44,643
did you set your mind to...

538
00:36:44,683 --> 00:36:47,043
finding out what happened
and getting justice?

539
00:36:47,083 --> 00:36:49,243
Half an hour?

540
00:36:51,323 --> 00:36:55,563
Very soon, you know,
because I knew she had done this.

541
00:37:02,803 --> 00:37:04,963
I've always been someone

542
00:37:05,003 --> 00:37:07,843
who likes to work through things.

543
00:37:10,003 --> 00:37:12,523
I am a bit bizarre,
I understand that.

544
00:37:12,563 --> 00:37:14,243
(CHUCKLES)

545
00:37:14,283 --> 00:37:17,163
But it was the thrill of the chase.

546
00:37:17,203 --> 00:37:19,643
And it was another salvation.

547
00:37:21,643 --> 00:37:25,043
I mean, she looks innocent,
doesn't she?

548
00:37:26,643 --> 00:37:29,563
It was a question really
of finding evidence.

549
00:37:32,243 --> 00:37:34,483
I found a letter

550
00:37:34,523 --> 00:37:38,003
telling him he'd got
a job in America.

551
00:37:39,203 --> 00:37:42,723
"Dear Julian, I have pleasure
in offering you the position

552
00:37:42,763 --> 00:37:45,403
as travel representative
with Tibbs."

553
00:37:46,803 --> 00:37:48,963
Well, she's made it up, hasn't she?

554
00:37:50,763 --> 00:37:53,083
You know what they say about scams,

555
00:37:53,123 --> 00:37:55,803
poor grammar and bad spelling.

556
00:37:55,843 --> 00:37:58,003
This has it all.

557
00:37:58,043 --> 00:38:01,923
I mean, I didn't set out
to do a detective's job.

558
00:38:01,963 --> 00:38:05,123
And I didn't know whether
the police knew it or not,

559
00:38:05,163 --> 00:38:08,363
but I was making sure
that they did know it.

560
00:38:09,323 --> 00:38:11,883
During the investigation,
we were able to confirm

561
00:38:11,923 --> 00:38:14,363
Dena went to her
next-door neighbour's,

562
00:38:14,403 --> 00:38:17,683
to use the word processor
to write the letter.

563
00:38:18,603 --> 00:38:21,003
The neighbours said,
"Well, actually, Dena wrote it

564
00:38:21,043 --> 00:38:23,043
and here's the copy
that I took of it."

565
00:38:24,603 --> 00:38:26,923
I just kept finding these things.

566
00:38:26,963 --> 00:38:29,923
She spins these wild yarns.

567
00:38:31,043 --> 00:38:35,003
I mean, she did claim she had cancer
and that was not true.

568
00:38:35,043 --> 00:38:38,643
She was seeking
for sort of sympathy.

569
00:38:38,683 --> 00:38:41,243
It was all part of her plot.

570
00:38:44,283 --> 00:38:47,723
Everybody starts telling us
stories about Dena's health,

571
00:38:47,763 --> 00:38:50,803
about how she had
breast cancer, womb cancer,

572
00:38:50,843 --> 00:38:52,963
liver failure,

573
00:38:53,003 --> 00:38:55,803
how she was going to have
to have one foot amputated

574
00:38:55,843 --> 00:38:58,363
because of her diabetes.

575
00:38:58,403 --> 00:39:01,323
When you actually meet her, there's
absolutely nothing wrong with her.

576
00:39:01,363 --> 00:39:04,363
So much stuff came out
about what she'd done.

577
00:39:06,083 --> 00:39:08,523
The morning after Julian died,

578
00:39:08,563 --> 00:39:12,203
Dena was on the steps
at Julian's work

579
00:39:12,243 --> 00:39:15,243
at 8:30AM saying that

580
00:39:15,283 --> 00:39:17,523
she wants to know about
the death in will service.

581
00:39:18,483 --> 00:39:21,763
You know, she turned up a matter
of hours after Julian had died

582
00:39:21,803 --> 00:39:23,603
to ask where her money was.

583
00:39:23,643 --> 00:39:25,683
That's incredible.

584
00:39:25,723 --> 00:39:28,323
Dena was obviously a liar.

585
00:39:29,763 --> 00:39:32,283
The extent of her lies
was so extreme,

586
00:39:32,323 --> 00:39:34,923
I think she started
to believe them herself.

587
00:39:34,963 --> 00:39:38,403
She created a world
of fabricated stories.

588
00:39:53,083 --> 00:39:56,643
The amount of different versions
that she had given to people

589
00:39:56,683 --> 00:39:59,963
about Julian's death was staggering.

590
00:40:02,323 --> 00:40:04,683
Saying he had seasickness,

591
00:40:04,723 --> 00:40:06,603
sunstroke,

592
00:40:06,643 --> 00:40:08,483
he'd been depressed,

593
00:40:08,523 --> 00:40:11,003
and he'd taken to drinking alcohol.

594
00:40:11,043 --> 00:40:13,403
Well, most of those
we could show weren't true.

595
00:40:15,723 --> 00:40:18,883
The post-mortem established
he had no alcohol in his blood

596
00:40:18,923 --> 00:40:21,003
or in his urine.

597
00:40:21,043 --> 00:40:24,443
There would have been some traces
of alcohol. There was none.

598
00:40:25,443 --> 00:40:27,443
It rang alarm bells.

599
00:40:29,883 --> 00:40:33,083
You have to put all this together
to try and establish

600
00:40:33,123 --> 00:40:35,963
whether she had murdered Julian.

601
00:40:37,363 --> 00:40:39,443
This is definitely no accident.

602
00:40:40,523 --> 00:40:43,203
We made discovery after discovery.

603
00:40:44,083 --> 00:40:46,643
The biggest bomb shell of them all

604
00:40:46,683 --> 00:40:49,283
was that she'd never
divorced Lee Wyatt.

605
00:40:51,963 --> 00:40:54,083
We were all truly shocked.

606
00:40:55,923 --> 00:40:59,003
She was still married to Lee Wyatt.

607
00:40:59,043 --> 00:41:02,123
And of course,
Julian didn't know that,

608
00:41:02,163 --> 00:41:04,163
and neither did we.

609
00:41:05,643 --> 00:41:08,443
We had suspicions around Dena,

610
00:41:08,483 --> 00:41:10,763
but we had to consider whether

611
00:41:10,803 --> 00:41:14,003
Lee was involved
in the death of Julian Webb,

612
00:41:14,043 --> 00:41:16,123
or whether they'd done it together.

613
00:41:17,203 --> 00:41:20,043
Or was Lee in fact another victim?

614
00:41:22,363 --> 00:41:25,083
It's very difficult for someone
to disappear completely

615
00:41:25,123 --> 00:41:27,283
for that length of time.

616
00:41:29,203 --> 00:41:33,443
We had serious concerns
that he may well be dead.

617
00:41:34,803 --> 00:41:36,803
Despite the circumstantial evidence

618
00:41:36,843 --> 00:41:39,963
pointing to Dena having a hand
in Julian's death,

619
00:41:40,003 --> 00:41:42,483
there was no smoking gun.

620
00:41:42,523 --> 00:41:45,683
The Crown Prosecution Service said,
"You don't have enough evidence

621
00:41:45,723 --> 00:41:47,723
to charge her with murder."

622
00:41:48,843 --> 00:41:51,843
I can't describe
the frustration because

623
00:41:51,883 --> 00:41:54,723
we felt we were letting Julian down.

624
00:42:00,923 --> 00:42:02,923
(DRAMATIC MUSIC)

625
00:42:08,283 --> 00:42:11,563
It was interesting cos I think
they thought it was a sort of,

626
00:42:11,603 --> 00:42:13,963
you know, just a small case.

627
00:42:14,003 --> 00:42:16,843
And loads of people turned up

628
00:42:16,883 --> 00:42:20,483
and obviously the coroner thought,
there's something up here.

629
00:42:21,283 --> 00:42:25,563
We know that in Julian's body,
there was aspirin and dothiepin.

630
00:42:26,523 --> 00:42:30,123
Which the coroner confirmed
were found in fatal doses.

631
00:42:31,323 --> 00:42:34,443
But the coroner couldn't say
how the drugs had got there.

632
00:42:35,443 --> 00:42:38,643
There was no evidence that
Julian had committed suicide.

633
00:42:39,763 --> 00:42:42,883
But also there wasn't sufficient
evidence of foul play.

634
00:42:44,523 --> 00:42:46,683
The coroner came back
and said, "Well,

635
00:42:46,723 --> 00:42:49,803
there wasn't
a completely satisfactory

636
00:42:49,843 --> 00:42:51,803
explanation for his death."

637
00:42:51,843 --> 00:42:55,443
Therefore, he was recording it
as an open verdict.

638
00:42:59,163 --> 00:43:03,003
That proved that
he hadn't committed suicide

639
00:43:04,803 --> 00:43:08,003
It meant that murder was
still an option.

640
00:43:08,043 --> 00:43:11,043
The case wasn't closed?
The case wasn't closed, no.

641
00:43:24,923 --> 00:43:27,283
It is incredibly disappointing,

642
00:43:27,323 --> 00:43:30,803
the fact that we weren't able
to give justice to the victim

643
00:43:30,843 --> 00:43:33,403
and the victim's family.

644
00:43:33,443 --> 00:43:37,203
And I felt that because
we hadn't got Dena behind bars

645
00:43:37,243 --> 00:43:39,563
something else was going to happen.

646
00:43:56,163 --> 00:43:58,843
I come into work in the morning,

647
00:43:58,883 --> 00:44:02,163
and I'm told by one of the DSs,

648
00:44:02,203 --> 00:44:05,203
a man is stopped by the police

649
00:44:05,243 --> 00:44:07,363
for benefit fraud

650
00:44:07,403 --> 00:44:09,403
and is in custody.

651
00:44:11,483 --> 00:44:14,203
He had been using the name
of Colin Mitchell.

652
00:44:15,643 --> 00:44:17,843
Which was a false name.

653
00:44:20,003 --> 00:44:22,123
So, I walk downstairs...

654
00:44:25,123 --> 00:44:27,363
..looked in...

655
00:44:27,403 --> 00:44:29,403
and I immediately recognise him.

656
00:44:31,643 --> 00:44:34,803
We have Lee Wyatt in custody.

657
00:44:39,083 --> 00:44:41,283
I always remember my mother said,

658
00:44:41,323 --> 00:44:44,163
"Lee, you can never tell them
the complete truth

659
00:44:44,203 --> 00:44:46,403
because no one will believe it.

660
00:44:46,443 --> 00:44:48,443
They'll think you're mad."

661
00:44:49,843 --> 00:44:52,323
Based on what I now know,

662
00:44:52,363 --> 00:44:55,323
I do believe that
she tried to kill me

663
00:44:55,363 --> 00:44:57,363
on a couple of occasions.

664
00:44:58,283 --> 00:45:00,483
I was victim number one,

665
00:45:00,523 --> 00:45:03,523
and no one was going to believe
victim number one.

666
00:45:03,563 --> 00:45:05,563
(DRAMATIC MUSIC BUILDS)

667
00:45:12,643 --> 00:45:16,083
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