1
00:00:15,648 --> 00:00:19,384
You look so good.
Look like you're going to court.
2
00:00:19,453 --> 00:00:21,119
You're not gonna make fun of
my driving like you usually do?
3
00:00:21,188 --> 00:00:23,388
I'm gonna make fun of everything
you do this entire week.
4
00:00:23,457 --> 00:00:25,490
I'm so dang excited
you're here.
5
00:00:25,559 --> 00:00:27,492
- Get your ass in the car now.
- All right.
6
00:00:27,494 --> 00:00:30,161
Man, I'm so excited that
my good friend murray newman
7
00:00:30,163 --> 00:00:32,131
Is coming to work with us
on this next case.
8
00:00:32,133 --> 00:00:35,834
I've known him forever.
He's a legal super genius
9
00:00:35,902 --> 00:00:37,436
And one of the smartest people
that I know.
10
00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,539
♪ better know better ♪
11
00:00:40,607 --> 00:00:42,975
♪ better know this ♪
12
00:00:43,877 --> 00:00:47,346
♪ every step and every breath ♪
13
00:00:47,414 --> 00:00:49,448
I met you during
the brian gonzalez trial
14
00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:50,915
As you were an intern.
15
00:00:50,917 --> 00:00:52,651
So you weren't even out
of law school yet.
16
00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:56,821
No. I was between my first and
second year of law school, 1997.
17
00:00:56,891 --> 00:01:00,359
Never been married before.
I still had some hair.
18
00:01:00,427 --> 00:01:02,594
You've known me longer than
all your marriages added up.
19
00:01:02,663 --> 00:01:04,830
- Oh, yeah. Easily.
- I like that.
20
00:01:04,832 --> 00:01:06,698
I'm excited, too.
21
00:01:06,767 --> 00:01:09,068
Not just because it's you
and we know each other so well.
22
00:01:09,136 --> 00:01:11,737
All these years, you've been
putting the case together, too,
23
00:01:11,805 --> 00:01:13,372
Behind the scenes
24
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,574
For the probable cause,
for the prosecutor.
25
00:01:15,642 --> 00:01:17,342
And people don't know,
but every day,
26
00:01:17,411 --> 00:01:19,177
You and I sit and talk
about everything
27
00:01:19,246 --> 00:01:21,046
And figure out what we have
and where we need to go.
28
00:01:21,114 --> 00:01:23,815
So the strategizing,
the true strategizing,
29
00:01:23,884 --> 00:01:26,117
Has been you and me
for 10 years.
30
00:01:26,119 --> 00:01:27,886
Right.
31
00:01:27,955 --> 00:01:29,354
I've been working on "cold
justice" since the first season
32
00:01:29,356 --> 00:01:31,490
As a legal consultant
off camera.
33
00:01:31,558 --> 00:01:33,692
Kelly and I worked at
the district attorney's office,
34
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,494
So we both have
the legal experience
35
00:01:35,562 --> 00:01:37,629
Of being a prosecutor.
But unlike kelly,
36
00:01:37,698 --> 00:01:39,097
I've got the experience of being
37
00:01:39,166 --> 00:01:40,965
A criminal defense attorney
as well.
38
00:01:41,035 --> 00:01:42,734
As a defense attorney, I have
39
00:01:42,803 --> 00:01:44,703
A slightly different outlook
on how circumstantial evidence
40
00:01:44,771 --> 00:01:46,839
Can be used
in trying to solve a case.
41
00:01:46,907 --> 00:01:49,407
Hopefully, we can help
lake station police figure out
42
00:01:49,476 --> 00:01:53,111
Who murdered frank halcarz
and prove it.
43
00:01:53,180 --> 00:01:54,713
Siegler: What did you think
when you first read it?
44
00:01:54,781 --> 00:01:57,582
The overwhelming thing for me
was just how sad it is.
45
00:01:57,584 --> 00:02:01,553
This is an 89-year-old man
who is a world war ii veteran,
46
00:02:01,622 --> 00:02:03,588
Our country's
national treasures,
47
00:02:03,590 --> 00:02:05,190
And he's robbed and beaten
48
00:02:05,258 --> 00:02:08,893
And just left
in such an undignified manner.
49
00:02:08,963 --> 00:02:10,129
It's heartbreaking.
50
00:02:10,197 --> 00:02:11,830
Newman: Frank was
a two-time widower
51
00:02:11,899 --> 00:02:13,765
And a world war ii veteran
52
00:02:13,834 --> 00:02:15,567
Known for having
a heart of gold.
53
00:02:15,636 --> 00:02:17,302
My grandfather fought
in world war ii,
54
00:02:17,304 --> 00:02:18,903
So I know firsthand
55
00:02:18,973 --> 00:02:21,273
Why they called them
the greatest generation.
56
00:02:21,341 --> 00:02:25,043
When you look at what an
honorable man that frank was,
57
00:02:25,111 --> 00:02:27,879
It's absolutely horrendous
to realize
58
00:02:27,948 --> 00:02:31,316
How his life ended in such
a cowardly and senseless way.
59
00:02:31,384 --> 00:02:33,418
I was very close
with my grandfather.
60
00:02:33,487 --> 00:02:36,354
He was my biggest hero.
I'd lose my mind
61
00:02:36,423 --> 00:02:39,024
If anybody had ever treated
my grandfather like that.
62
00:02:39,092 --> 00:02:40,425
This is the kind of case
you fight the hardest for,
63
00:02:40,494 --> 00:02:42,261
Don't you think?
64
00:02:42,263 --> 00:02:44,963
Absolutely.
How's my driving so far?
65
00:02:45,031 --> 00:02:46,665
- You're doing fine, honey.
- [snickers]
66
00:02:48,402 --> 00:02:50,035
- Peek: Hello.
- Siegler: Hello. Good morning.
67
00:02:50,103 --> 00:02:51,202
Detective peek.
Nice to meet you.
68
00:02:51,272 --> 00:02:53,304
- I'm kelly.
- Murray newman.
69
00:02:53,374 --> 00:02:55,073
- Captain perryman.
- Assistant chief taylor.
70
00:02:55,142 --> 00:02:56,408
Nice to meet you, sir.
71
00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:57,976
- Jim richardson.
- The boss.
72
00:02:58,045 --> 00:03:00,145
Nice to meet you.
We're excited to be here.
73
00:03:00,213 --> 00:03:04,516
So back in 2007, what do you all
remember about this case?
74
00:03:04,585 --> 00:03:05,917
Seeing the body.
75
00:03:05,986 --> 00:03:07,385
- Oh, you saw him?
- Yes.
76
00:03:07,454 --> 00:03:09,021
It's kind of rough sometimes
77
00:03:09,089 --> 00:03:10,689
When you walk in and see
an elderly gentleman
78
00:03:10,757 --> 00:03:13,124
That you know
is a veteran, so...
79
00:03:13,193 --> 00:03:14,859
I think they're
national treasures,
80
00:03:14,861 --> 00:03:17,261
And they definitely
don't deserve
81
00:03:17,263 --> 00:03:19,298
To end up the way he did.
82
00:03:19,366 --> 00:03:21,199
You all are super motivated
on this one.
83
00:03:21,201 --> 00:03:22,701
Absolutely. Yes.
84
00:03:22,769 --> 00:03:25,470
Can you say
why it hasn't been cleared yet?
85
00:03:25,539 --> 00:03:27,505
We were in gary at the time,
and we were dealing
86
00:03:27,574 --> 00:03:29,474
With about 136 homicides
that year.
87
00:03:29,543 --> 00:03:30,909
Okay.
88
00:03:30,978 --> 00:03:32,744
You have one detective
assigned to the case,
89
00:03:32,813 --> 00:03:34,412
And you have a certain amount
of days to work the case.
90
00:03:34,481 --> 00:03:36,247
Then you get more work piled on,
91
00:03:36,249 --> 00:03:38,349
And when you hit that end,
that's it.
92
00:03:38,419 --> 00:03:40,552
That's one reason
this show works,
93
00:03:40,620 --> 00:03:42,253
Because we're forcing you
94
00:03:42,255 --> 00:03:45,023
To give us these two guys
for seven working days,
95
00:03:45,091 --> 00:03:47,526
Which is a luxury you never
really had on your cases.
96
00:03:47,594 --> 00:03:50,161
So we get it.
We hear it everywhere.
97
00:03:50,230 --> 00:03:51,562
So thank you
for letting us be here.
98
00:03:51,564 --> 00:03:52,831
- Not a problem.
- We're excited.
99
00:03:52,899 --> 00:03:54,766
- We appreciate it.
- Lead the way.
100
00:03:54,835 --> 00:03:56,901
Perryman: We met back in '06.
101
00:03:56,970 --> 00:03:59,571
We were forced to ride
two-man unit for a long time
102
00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:01,940
In gary, so...
103
00:04:02,008 --> 00:04:05,843
It was like being married
for 10 years, give or take.
104
00:04:05,913 --> 00:04:08,780
Mm-hmm. I'm not saying we enjoy
working these type of cases,
105
00:04:08,849 --> 00:04:10,448
'cause you kind of hope
they don't happen.
106
00:04:10,517 --> 00:04:12,517
But, unfortunately,
when it does,
107
00:04:12,586 --> 00:04:14,086
We really enjoy
that type of work.
108
00:04:14,154 --> 00:04:19,424
Okay, so this is our picture
of frank halcarz, sr.
109
00:04:19,492 --> 00:04:22,060
- And he was how old?
- Peek: 89.
110
00:04:22,128 --> 00:04:23,895
I believe he was born
in east chicago,
111
00:04:23,964 --> 00:04:25,163
Which isn't far from here.
112
00:04:25,232 --> 00:04:27,565
He's a world war ii veteran.
113
00:04:27,634 --> 00:04:28,933
Talking with people
from the neighborhood,
114
00:04:28,935 --> 00:04:30,268
He's a great guy.
115
00:04:30,336 --> 00:04:33,572
He visited the vfw
from time to time,
116
00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,273
And he just kind
of kept to himself.
117
00:04:35,275 --> 00:04:38,242
Siegler: Frank halcarz
grew up around chicago.
118
00:04:38,244 --> 00:04:39,844
He was a boy scout.
119
00:04:39,913 --> 00:04:43,715
He joined the army
from 1941 to 1945.
120
00:04:43,784 --> 00:04:47,185
He was married twice,
and he was also widowed twice.
121
00:04:47,253 --> 00:04:50,088
His second wife
passed away in 2005.
122
00:04:50,090 --> 00:04:52,056
At the time of the murder,
frank was living alone,
123
00:04:52,126 --> 00:04:55,293
But he was still very close
with his large blended family.
124
00:04:55,362 --> 00:04:57,996
In fact, the last person
he talked to
125
00:04:58,064 --> 00:05:02,066
Was his step-granddaughter
on October 26, 2007.
126
00:05:02,135 --> 00:05:05,503
So we know
what day frank was found.
127
00:05:05,572 --> 00:05:09,073
- Halloween 2007.
- Mm-hmm.
128
00:05:09,143 --> 00:05:13,244
But we think the murder
happened on Friday the 26th.
129
00:05:13,313 --> 00:05:15,047
- Yes.
- So he's out there five days.
130
00:05:15,115 --> 00:05:18,983
Peek: Right. On October 31st,
a friend found frank face down,
131
00:05:18,985 --> 00:05:21,820
And he had a large hole
in the back of his head,
132
00:05:21,888 --> 00:05:23,788
Probably about two
or three inches.
133
00:05:23,857 --> 00:05:26,290
But he also had a laceration
on his forehead,
134
00:05:26,292 --> 00:05:29,494
So that could have been from him
falling once he was struck.
135
00:05:29,496 --> 00:05:31,963
Did he have any of this
from defending himself at all?
136
00:05:31,965 --> 00:05:34,065
- Not that I recall.
- Wow. Okay.
137
00:05:34,134 --> 00:05:37,201
He was found in the doorway.
138
00:05:37,271 --> 00:05:39,337
It's like
an enclosed front porch.
139
00:05:39,406 --> 00:05:42,373
His rear pocket
was pulled out.
140
00:05:42,375 --> 00:05:44,275
- Which tells you...
- They took his wallet.
141
00:05:44,344 --> 00:05:46,678
Okay. What was
the working theory back then
142
00:05:46,747 --> 00:05:48,480
As far as what
the weapon could have been?
143
00:05:48,548 --> 00:05:50,882
Well, they did recover
a sledgehammer,
144
00:05:50,951 --> 00:05:53,985
And detectives believe
that it was involved.
145
00:05:54,054 --> 00:05:57,656
It was located on the railroad
tracks just behind the house.
146
00:05:57,724 --> 00:06:00,692
The hammer was found very close
to the crime scene.
147
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,027
And when you look at it,
compared to the wounds
148
00:06:03,096 --> 00:06:05,464
On frank's head,
we have a pretty good idea
149
00:06:05,532 --> 00:06:07,498
That that was probably
the murder weapon.
150
00:06:07,568 --> 00:06:09,367
And it looks like
he was unloading groceries
151
00:06:09,435 --> 00:06:10,568
When he was attacked.
152
00:06:10,637 --> 00:06:11,903
But did his killer
follow him inside,
153
00:06:11,972 --> 00:06:14,339
Or was he already inside,
lying in wait?
154
00:06:14,341 --> 00:06:18,576
Okay. Let's put up here
"unknown suspect."
155
00:06:18,645 --> 00:06:20,645
What first makes this pop up?
156
00:06:20,714 --> 00:06:22,981
The report from his buddies.
157
00:06:23,049 --> 00:06:26,384
And the buddies are guys
he hangs out with where? Vfw?
158
00:06:26,386 --> 00:06:28,220
It's a vfw. Yeah.
159
00:06:28,288 --> 00:06:31,322
And frank tells
the two guys at the vfw what?
160
00:06:31,391 --> 00:06:33,391
Peek: He's been having trouble
with neighborhood kids
161
00:06:33,460 --> 00:06:35,193
That were stealing from him.
162
00:06:35,261 --> 00:06:38,396
It's kind of the stuff
that kids would do, right?
163
00:06:38,398 --> 00:06:42,166
This doesn't look like a real
professional kind of thing.
164
00:06:42,235 --> 00:06:45,603
They were showing up and messing
with his residence,
165
00:06:45,672 --> 00:06:48,439
So that was always the talk.
166
00:06:48,441 --> 00:06:50,775
"hey, these children
could have been involved in it."
167
00:06:50,844 --> 00:06:53,277
Siegler: We don't know
the extent of the trouble
168
00:06:53,347 --> 00:06:55,446
Frank was having
with the local kids.
169
00:06:55,516 --> 00:06:57,181
But because
he was 89 years old,
170
00:06:57,251 --> 00:06:59,417
He was a pretty easy target
171
00:06:59,485 --> 00:07:01,720
For anybody who wanted
to take advantage of him.
172
00:07:01,788 --> 00:07:04,022
But they weren't the only ones
he was having trouble with.
173
00:07:04,090 --> 00:07:05,990
Let's talk
about brandon scroggin,
174
00:07:06,059 --> 00:07:09,093
Frank's step-grandson
from his second marriage.
175
00:07:09,162 --> 00:07:11,429
When did he get
all these tattoos?
176
00:07:11,497 --> 00:07:16,467
I know he got the face tattoos
the day of and thereafter.
177
00:07:16,469 --> 00:07:18,069
I'm gonna
put them both up, okay?
178
00:07:18,071 --> 00:07:21,506
And in 2007, brandon's how old?
179
00:07:21,575 --> 00:07:23,908
- 23.
- 23.
180
00:07:23,910 --> 00:07:26,044
Peek: He stayed in a camper
in the back of his residence.
181
00:07:26,112 --> 00:07:28,446
Newman: I got the feeling
that he was still trying
182
00:07:28,514 --> 00:07:30,281
To be kind to brandon
183
00:07:30,283 --> 00:07:32,851
Because his wife
would have wanted it that way.
184
00:07:32,919 --> 00:07:36,721
Peek: And frank was a great guy.
He's helping out this kid.
185
00:07:36,790 --> 00:07:38,489
Any prior convictions
or arrests?
186
00:07:38,491 --> 00:07:40,992
He has a jacket
that's pretty huge.
187
00:07:41,060 --> 00:07:44,963
Auto theft warrants from '05.
Burglary, 2005.
188
00:07:45,031 --> 00:07:46,965
Siegler: And we know
he uses coke.
189
00:07:47,033 --> 00:07:47,966
Correct.
190
00:07:48,034 --> 00:07:49,601
August 4th,
191
00:07:49,669 --> 00:07:53,205
Frank reports his gun
and his welder missing.
192
00:07:53,273 --> 00:07:56,140
And at that time,
he mentioned brandon scroggin
193
00:07:56,142 --> 00:07:57,909
Living in the trailer
on the property.
194
00:07:57,978 --> 00:07:59,710
- Two months before our murder.
- Mm-hmm.
195
00:07:59,780 --> 00:08:01,112
And there was issues before
196
00:08:01,181 --> 00:08:03,247
About him stealing
frank's debit card.
197
00:08:03,316 --> 00:08:04,516
Siegler: Frank
had accused brandon
198
00:08:04,584 --> 00:08:06,484
Of stealing
his debit cards in the past.
199
00:08:06,553 --> 00:08:08,686
And we know
that one of frank's credit cards
200
00:08:08,755 --> 00:08:10,521
Was used after his death.
201
00:08:10,591 --> 00:08:12,624
But was brandon
the one using that?
202
00:08:12,692 --> 00:08:14,525
We don't know.
But those transactions
203
00:08:14,595 --> 00:08:15,894
Could be the huge piece
of this puzzle.
204
00:08:20,133 --> 00:08:26,004
♪ I found heaven
when I looked in your eyes ♪
205
00:08:26,072 --> 00:08:30,241
♪ like a peaceful
sort of kryptonite ♪
206
00:08:30,310 --> 00:08:32,444
Peek: We're gonna go over
to the vfw.
207
00:08:32,512 --> 00:08:34,546
- That's the place he hung out?
- Yes.
208
00:08:34,614 --> 00:08:36,647
In lake station here, everybody
kind of knows everybody,
209
00:08:36,717 --> 00:08:39,684
So typically,
that's where the hangout is.
210
00:08:39,752 --> 00:08:42,520
Frank halcarz
used to visit the vfw hall
211
00:08:42,589 --> 00:08:45,056
And hang out with his friends,
so we're headed there today
212
00:08:45,125 --> 00:08:47,225
To talk to
his step-granddaughter, devin.
213
00:08:47,293 --> 00:08:48,760
She also happens
to be the cousin
214
00:08:48,828 --> 00:08:50,295
Of our suspect, brandon.
215
00:08:50,363 --> 00:08:52,997
She was only 16 at the time,
216
00:08:52,999 --> 00:08:55,634
But she was the last
known person to talk to frank.
217
00:08:55,702 --> 00:08:57,235
- Hello.
- Hi.
218
00:08:57,303 --> 00:08:58,570
- You're devin.
- I'm devin. Hi.
219
00:08:58,638 --> 00:08:59,537
I'm kelly. Nice to meet you.
220
00:08:59,606 --> 00:09:01,039
Hi. Detective peek.
221
00:09:01,107 --> 00:09:03,141
- Hi. Nice to meet you.
- Nice to meet you.
222
00:09:03,209 --> 00:09:04,742
Can you talk to us about frank?
223
00:09:04,811 --> 00:09:06,244
The kind of person he was.
224
00:09:06,313 --> 00:09:08,613
My real grandpa passed away
when I was, like, three,
225
00:09:08,681 --> 00:09:10,615
And I don't remember him at all.
226
00:09:10,683 --> 00:09:12,283
And then he came along
227
00:09:12,352 --> 00:09:16,487
And he was just,
you know, my grandpa.
228
00:09:16,556 --> 00:09:19,658
He was just
the only grandpa I ever had.
229
00:09:19,726 --> 00:09:22,226
I'll try not to cry
this whole time.
230
00:09:22,295 --> 00:09:24,963
No, it's okay. It's sad enough
that he was 89.
231
00:09:25,031 --> 00:09:26,831
Devin: Yeah.
232
00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:28,867
And then we hear nothing but
good things about him, right?
233
00:09:28,935 --> 00:09:31,936
He was such a great guy.
234
00:09:31,938 --> 00:09:35,073
They had such
a cute relationship.
235
00:09:35,141 --> 00:09:37,275
You know, finding love so old.
236
00:09:37,343 --> 00:09:39,443
He used to always bother
my grandma all the time.
237
00:09:39,445 --> 00:09:42,514
They just had this
little thing going on.
238
00:09:42,582 --> 00:09:44,448
My grandma would act
like she was annoyed,
239
00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:46,217
But he'd always tease her,
240
00:09:46,286 --> 00:09:48,386
And she'd always be like,
"--damn it, frank."
241
00:09:48,455 --> 00:09:50,755
He was always working
in the yard.
242
00:09:50,824 --> 00:09:52,290
He had a big pond back there.
243
00:09:52,359 --> 00:09:55,426
I used to go fishing with them
all the time and camping.
244
00:09:55,428 --> 00:09:57,862
Frank was a veteran
of world war ii.
245
00:09:57,931 --> 00:10:00,865
He didn't say much about it,
but he was really proud.
246
00:10:00,934 --> 00:10:03,935
He was a sweet,
sweet, funny man.
247
00:10:04,003 --> 00:10:07,571
He always was playing jokes
and being a trickster.
248
00:10:07,573 --> 00:10:09,473
Even when I was younger
with my grandma.
249
00:10:09,475 --> 00:10:13,044
And he was just always helpful
and patient with me.
250
00:10:13,113 --> 00:10:17,248
Remember the last time that you
had any contact with frank?
251
00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:20,051
My mom and my sister
asked me to call him
252
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,054
To see if he was still coming
to my nephew's birthday party.
253
00:10:23,123 --> 00:10:25,256
- Okay.
- He said, "yeah, I'm coming."
254
00:10:25,325 --> 00:10:26,991
He just got back
from the store or something,
255
00:10:27,060 --> 00:10:29,260
And then he never showed up.
256
00:10:29,329 --> 00:10:32,430
Anything in the telephone
conversation you had with frank
257
00:10:32,498 --> 00:10:34,833
About troubles at his house
or troubles in his life?
258
00:10:34,901 --> 00:10:36,768
No.
259
00:10:36,836 --> 00:10:38,903
- Anything about brandon?
- No.
260
00:10:38,972 --> 00:10:41,505
I don't feel like he would
say anything to me about...
261
00:10:41,507 --> 00:10:43,607
Probably not. Do you know
anything about the relationship
262
00:10:43,677 --> 00:10:45,676
Brandon had with frank
263
00:10:45,746 --> 00:10:47,912
During those three years
after your grandma passed away?
264
00:10:47,980 --> 00:10:49,547
- I have no idea.
- Okay.
265
00:10:49,616 --> 00:10:53,785
I don't think a lot of
my family really associated
266
00:10:53,853 --> 00:10:54,986
With brandon that much.
267
00:10:55,055 --> 00:10:56,888
I wasn't allowed
to be around him.
268
00:10:56,956 --> 00:10:58,322
Even back then.
269
00:10:58,324 --> 00:11:01,960
Yeah. He was troubled. Yeah.
270
00:11:02,028 --> 00:11:06,030
He was always very mean
and was getting into the drugs.
271
00:11:06,099 --> 00:11:09,100
Devin doesn't know much
about any specific issues
272
00:11:09,169 --> 00:11:12,436
Going on between frank
and her cousin brandon,
273
00:11:12,505 --> 00:11:15,774
But she was warned herself
about brandon a long time ago,
274
00:11:15,842 --> 00:11:17,408
And we need to get
to the bottom of that.
275
00:11:17,410 --> 00:11:21,379
He had no fear, and he didn't
care about consequences.
276
00:11:25,317 --> 00:11:38,963
What's your understanding
277
00:11:39,032 --> 00:11:41,165
Of what's still standing
on frank's property today
278
00:11:41,234 --> 00:11:42,734
For us to go look at?
279
00:11:42,802 --> 00:11:45,203
Basically the cinder blocks
that held his house up.
280
00:11:45,205 --> 00:11:47,872
The rest of it's gone,
which is unfortunate.
281
00:11:47,940 --> 00:11:49,807
Siegler: Hopefully
we can talk about the area
282
00:11:49,876 --> 00:11:51,909
Where the porch is,
where everything happened
283
00:11:51,978 --> 00:11:54,078
And then talk about
exactly how it went down.
284
00:11:54,147 --> 00:11:57,482
We always want to know
exactly how it happened.
285
00:11:57,550 --> 00:11:59,283
And sometimes we may not know
the fine details,
286
00:11:59,352 --> 00:12:00,818
But we know enough.
287
00:12:00,887 --> 00:12:03,254
How he swung the hammer
doesn't necessarily mean
288
00:12:03,322 --> 00:12:05,089
We can't figure out
who swung the hammer.
289
00:12:05,158 --> 00:12:08,059
16 years ago,
89-year-old frank halcarz
290
00:12:08,128 --> 00:12:10,027
Was brutally murdered
in his own home.
291
00:12:10,096 --> 00:12:12,831
We wanna get a lay of the land
292
00:12:12,833 --> 00:12:15,233
And try to recreate
his killer's actions.
293
00:12:15,301 --> 00:12:17,701
This is the original
driveway, right?
294
00:12:17,771 --> 00:12:19,337
Right. Correct.
The trailer would have been
295
00:12:19,405 --> 00:12:21,038
In the grass
at the very end over there.
296
00:12:21,107 --> 00:12:23,041
Siegler: This is one
we think brandon stayed in.
297
00:12:23,109 --> 00:12:25,109
- Yes.
- And what's roped off here?
298
00:12:25,111 --> 00:12:27,345
This would be a representation
of the porch.
299
00:12:27,413 --> 00:12:29,347
This corner is actually
300
00:12:29,415 --> 00:12:31,482
An original corner
of where the house was.
301
00:12:31,551 --> 00:12:33,884
So he would have, like--his feet
would have been here, right?
302
00:12:33,886 --> 00:12:36,754
And his head
basically right there.
303
00:12:36,823 --> 00:12:38,990
So then, murray, you be frank,
304
00:12:39,058 --> 00:12:41,025
And, pete,
you be sledgehammer man.
305
00:12:41,094 --> 00:12:42,393
Okay.
306
00:12:42,462 --> 00:12:44,862
So y'all are thinking
it went down how?
307
00:12:44,931 --> 00:12:48,799
I think he's coming out
from inside the main house
308
00:12:48,801 --> 00:12:51,235
Because we know
that he's got
309
00:12:51,304 --> 00:12:53,805
At least one more load
of groceries in his vehicle.
310
00:12:53,873 --> 00:12:58,542
I think he set down one load,
and he is coming back out,
311
00:12:58,611 --> 00:13:01,045
And I think he gets
about this far
312
00:13:01,114 --> 00:13:03,147
Before he gets that first strike
313
00:13:03,149 --> 00:13:05,049
To the back of the left side
of his head.
314
00:13:05,118 --> 00:13:06,750
Okay, so where do you think
315
00:13:06,752 --> 00:13:09,020
The sledgehammer suspect
comes from?
316
00:13:09,088 --> 00:13:10,688
I think he followed him
up the door.
317
00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:12,290
I think he came
right behind him.
318
00:13:12,358 --> 00:13:14,592
Could they have been having
an argument
319
00:13:14,661 --> 00:13:16,627
And he said, "you know what?
Enough of this.
320
00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:18,029
I'm leaving
and you need to, too,"
321
00:13:18,097 --> 00:13:19,931
And walked out ahead of him?
Yes.
322
00:13:19,999 --> 00:13:21,832
Or he could have walked in
and seen him with a hammer
323
00:13:21,902 --> 00:13:23,667
And was like,
"let me get out of here."
324
00:13:23,737 --> 00:13:26,304
Or he could have been hiding.
You're never gonna know.
325
00:13:26,372 --> 00:13:28,439
Newman: Frank could have been
struck after a confrontation.
326
00:13:28,508 --> 00:13:30,542
But we believe
that some neighborhood kids,
327
00:13:30,610 --> 00:13:33,178
As well as frank's
step-grandson brandon,
328
00:13:33,246 --> 00:13:35,013
Had been stealing from him.
329
00:13:35,081 --> 00:13:36,814
Maybe he came home
in the middle of a burglary,
330
00:13:36,883 --> 00:13:38,416
And to avoid being caught,
331
00:13:38,484 --> 00:13:40,518
The burglar grabbed
a nearby sledgehammer.
332
00:13:40,586 --> 00:13:43,587
So I believe
he strikes him here.
333
00:13:44,123 --> 00:13:46,690
And then he falls
onto his left side.
334
00:13:46,692 --> 00:13:48,592
The fall makes
the dentures fall out.
335
00:13:48,661 --> 00:13:50,961
- Correct.
- I think he comes this way.
336
00:13:50,963 --> 00:13:53,865
I believe he hits here.
337
00:13:53,933 --> 00:13:55,432
Mm!
338
00:13:55,502 --> 00:13:58,436
When pete did that blow
to murray's little head,
339
00:13:58,504 --> 00:14:00,138
That's horrible.
340
00:14:00,206 --> 00:14:02,506
That's way worse than pulling
the trigger on a gun.
341
00:14:02,508 --> 00:14:03,807
It was bad.
342
00:14:03,809 --> 00:14:06,510
So then he would remove
the wallet
343
00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:08,112
And then exit out this way.
344
00:14:08,181 --> 00:14:10,915
When the police arrive,
his wallet is not there.
345
00:14:10,984 --> 00:14:13,050
And his pocket's
pulled out, too.
346
00:14:13,119 --> 00:14:15,052
And then what do we
know happens out here?
347
00:14:15,121 --> 00:14:17,921
The sledgehammer was located
right off the railroad tracks.
348
00:14:17,923 --> 00:14:20,758
You have the residence.
He's going this way.
349
00:14:20,827 --> 00:14:22,727
He's not going
back out the driveway.
350
00:14:22,795 --> 00:14:25,829
We think this happened
around what time on Friday?
351
00:14:25,831 --> 00:14:26,764
- Around 5:00?
- Late afternoon.
352
00:14:26,832 --> 00:14:28,299
3:00 to 5:00?
353
00:14:28,368 --> 00:14:30,702
And the first credit card uses
at what time?
354
00:14:30,770 --> 00:14:32,503
10-ish. In the 10:00 hour.
355
00:14:32,572 --> 00:14:34,272
Siegler:
Let's talk about brandon.
356
00:14:34,340 --> 00:14:36,975
If he went over there just to
get money and frank busts him,
357
00:14:36,977 --> 00:14:38,877
Frank's gonna say,
"what are you doing here?"
358
00:14:38,945 --> 00:14:41,412
- There's no reason to kill him.
- No.
359
00:14:41,414 --> 00:14:43,281
Or he goes in there in the
beginning, in the first place,
360
00:14:43,349 --> 00:14:44,948
When frank's not even home yet,
waiting to get him,
361
00:14:44,950 --> 00:14:46,985
'cause that's his plan
from the very beginning.
362
00:14:46,987 --> 00:14:49,621
Don't underestimate
how mad it might be
363
00:14:49,689 --> 00:14:51,889
That he got the cops
called on him from before.
364
00:14:51,958 --> 00:14:54,058
This was absolutely
an ambush murder.
365
00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:56,760
This was just such a cheap shot.
366
00:14:56,762 --> 00:14:59,330
Brutal, cruel, cruel attack.
367
00:14:59,399 --> 00:15:01,465
It's heartbreaking
that you have that in you
368
00:15:01,534 --> 00:15:06,103
To do to an 89-year-old war
veteran laying on the ground.
369
00:15:06,172 --> 00:15:07,538
It's unspeakable.
370
00:15:07,540 --> 00:15:09,240
That was very helpful.
Thank you.
371
00:15:17,116 --> 00:15:19,784
Siegler: Okay.
John wiederhold.
372
00:15:19,852 --> 00:15:22,286
He says he's a stepson
of the victim.
373
00:15:22,355 --> 00:15:24,522
As hotheaded as brandon can be,
there's no telling
374
00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:27,057
What he might have told him
over the years, too.
375
00:15:27,059 --> 00:15:29,594
It's time we start talking
to everyone
376
00:15:29,662 --> 00:15:32,996
Who can tell us about frank
and any strange relationship
377
00:15:32,998 --> 00:15:35,499
He might have had
with his step-grandson brandon.
378
00:15:35,568 --> 00:15:38,302
Was it so bad that it could
have led to murder?
379
00:15:38,371 --> 00:15:40,738
And why would he kill the man
who was helping him
380
00:15:40,806 --> 00:15:43,307
More than anyone
and giving him a place to live?
381
00:15:43,375 --> 00:15:47,078
I raised brandon from
five years old till he was 18.
382
00:15:47,146 --> 00:15:50,047
- Yeah.
- His mom died.
383
00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:51,916
So, what about his dad?
384
00:15:53,453 --> 00:15:56,220
- That's why it fell on you.
- Yeah.
385
00:15:56,288 --> 00:16:00,158
What do you know about frank
and brandon's relationship?
386
00:16:00,226 --> 00:16:02,159
I know brandon got money
off of him couple of times.
387
00:16:02,228 --> 00:16:04,395
And I talked to frank once more.
388
00:16:04,464 --> 00:16:05,696
I said, "don't give him
no more money, frank.
389
00:16:05,765 --> 00:16:07,097
Don't give him more money.
390
00:16:07,099 --> 00:16:08,299
He's gonna go drink it up
or get coke
391
00:16:08,368 --> 00:16:09,467
Or whatever he wants
to do with it.
392
00:16:09,535 --> 00:16:11,469
Two months later
or three months later,
393
00:16:11,537 --> 00:16:13,237
That's when they found him
dead over there."
394
00:16:13,306 --> 00:16:14,305
- Really?
- Yeah.
395
00:16:19,044 --> 00:16:22,746
Talk to me about brandon's
relationship with frank.
396
00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:25,116
He was staying with somebody
and he couldn't anymore.
397
00:16:25,184 --> 00:16:26,550
And shocked when my mom said,
398
00:16:26,619 --> 00:16:28,987
"frank's letting brandon
stay in his trailer."
399
00:16:29,055 --> 00:16:31,455
I was like, "really?" I'm like,
"why would grandpa do that?"
400
00:16:31,457 --> 00:16:33,724
'cause I know
I didn't trust brandon.
401
00:16:33,793 --> 00:16:36,761
Everybody knew he would steal
from you as quick as he can.
402
00:16:36,829 --> 00:16:41,031
I know that he had screaming
matches with my grandpa.
403
00:16:41,101 --> 00:16:42,600
And I think
there was an instance
404
00:16:42,668 --> 00:16:44,635
When my grandpa was finally
like, "you have to leave.
405
00:16:44,704 --> 00:16:46,871
Like, "you can't stay
in the camper."
406
00:16:46,939 --> 00:16:49,240
- Do you remember when that was?
- I don't. I really don't.
407
00:16:49,308 --> 00:16:52,576
I know it was
within a month of him...
408
00:16:52,645 --> 00:16:54,912
I would say definitely
around four weeks
409
00:16:54,981 --> 00:16:58,416
Of him not being here
with us anymore.
410
00:16:58,484 --> 00:17:00,684
If frank was trying
to kick brandon out,
411
00:17:00,753 --> 00:17:02,820
Then maybe brandon felt
like he had nothing to lose
412
00:17:02,888 --> 00:17:04,555
By trying to steal from him
one more time.
413
00:17:04,623 --> 00:17:06,390
Smith: Brandon's
one of the people--
414
00:17:06,458 --> 00:17:09,093
I honestly don't think he has
ever felt empathy in his life.
415
00:17:09,161 --> 00:17:10,862
He doesn't feel
for other people.
416
00:17:23,442 --> 00:17:24,976
That's why.
417
00:17:26,212 --> 00:17:27,011
That's why.
418
00:17:43,463 --> 00:17:45,763
So frank told you that directly,
419
00:17:45,831 --> 00:17:48,566
That he told brandon to leave
and that was enough?
420
00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:07,785
- All right. You take care.
- You, too.
421
00:18:07,854 --> 00:18:10,922
Frank told her
he was scared of brandon,
422
00:18:10,990 --> 00:18:15,326
And in August he kicked him out
and told him not to come back.
423
00:18:15,394 --> 00:18:18,962
So there's a possible personal
and financial motive here.
424
00:18:19,032 --> 00:18:19,897
Yeah.
425
00:18:20,298 --> 00:18:37,715
Siegler: We've been hearing
a lot that brandon scroggin
426
00:18:37,783 --> 00:18:40,350
Could be the person
who killed and robbed frank.
427
00:18:40,420 --> 00:18:42,954
But we need to look
into these rumors and things
428
00:18:43,022 --> 00:18:44,889
That we're hearing
about maybe some local boys
429
00:18:44,957 --> 00:18:47,458
Possibly being involved
in stealing from frank.
430
00:18:47,527 --> 00:18:50,994
And we need evidence
that they were involved.
431
00:18:50,996 --> 00:18:53,163
Or if not,
we need to eliminate them.
432
00:18:53,165 --> 00:18:54,565
- Hello, guys.
- Hello. How you doing?
433
00:18:54,633 --> 00:18:55,766
How are you, sir?
My name is kelly.
434
00:18:55,835 --> 00:18:57,601
- Hi, kelly.
- Nice to meet you.
435
00:18:57,670 --> 00:18:59,370
- Hi, kelly. Andy.
- Nice to meet you.
436
00:18:59,438 --> 00:19:00,738
Doc and andrew are some
437
00:19:00,806 --> 00:19:03,241
Of frank's old
american legion buddies.
438
00:19:03,243 --> 00:19:05,909
They also happen to be
the two witnesses who first told
439
00:19:05,978 --> 00:19:08,579
The police department about
maybe these neighborhood boys
440
00:19:08,648 --> 00:19:10,248
Being involved
in what happened to frank.
441
00:19:10,316 --> 00:19:13,050
- Are you a prosecutor?
- Used to be. Yes, sir.
442
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,285
My little town
is called blessing, texas,
443
00:19:15,355 --> 00:19:16,787
And we have a legion there.
444
00:19:16,856 --> 00:19:19,223
And I grew up
cleaning the toilets,
445
00:19:19,292 --> 00:19:21,292
Mopping the floor,
washing dishes,
446
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:23,193
And calling bingo
and bartending there.
447
00:19:23,195 --> 00:19:25,429
And now look
what you're doing now.
448
00:19:25,498 --> 00:19:26,931
And when I go home now,
449
00:19:26,999 --> 00:19:29,033
I still go the legion
every time we go hang out.
450
00:19:29,101 --> 00:19:30,868
- God bless you.
- Well, we're excited
451
00:19:30,937 --> 00:19:33,303
To talk to you all
about what happened to frank.
452
00:19:33,305 --> 00:19:35,173
Frank was a nice fellow.
453
00:19:35,241 --> 00:19:37,308
Doc: Yeah. Frank
was one hell of a guy.
454
00:19:37,376 --> 00:19:39,209
Andrew: He really had
a nice heart.
455
00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:42,245
That guy was just as gentle
as a lamb, ma'am. He really was.
456
00:19:42,247 --> 00:19:45,749
He was this type of guy
you'd like to be with.
457
00:19:45,818 --> 00:19:47,618
I remember teasing him
because he's army.
458
00:19:47,687 --> 00:19:49,587
He said, "you know
what that stands for?"
459
00:19:49,655 --> 00:19:53,023
He says, "what?" I said, "ain't
ready to be a marine yet."
460
00:19:53,025 --> 00:19:56,226
And he started laughing
his ass off.
461
00:19:56,296 --> 00:19:57,795
It shocked me
when I heard about it.
462
00:19:57,863 --> 00:20:00,063
I said,
no, it can't be my frank,
463
00:20:00,133 --> 00:20:02,366
Because we love him so much.
He really was great.
464
00:20:02,434 --> 00:20:04,235
But I'd like to see
this thing have closure,
465
00:20:04,303 --> 00:20:08,972
I'll tell you,
for the family and for him.
466
00:20:09,042 --> 00:20:13,677
He said that young kid
living in the trailer
467
00:20:13,679 --> 00:20:15,713
In front of his house--
he said, "just putting him up."
468
00:20:15,781 --> 00:20:18,349
I said, "oh, that's nice
of you to do that."
469
00:20:18,417 --> 00:20:20,951
"well, you gotta
help people out."
470
00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:22,753
Did frank ever mention
that anything
471
00:20:22,822 --> 00:20:25,723
Was going wrong in his
relationship with brandon?
472
00:20:25,791 --> 00:20:28,425
Well, he said he was
a problem child,
473
00:20:28,494 --> 00:20:30,260
As last
I remember him telling us.
474
00:20:30,262 --> 00:20:32,930
And he was hoping
that he'd be leaving.
475
00:20:32,998 --> 00:20:35,265
- He told you that, frank did?
- Yeah. Yeah.
476
00:20:35,267 --> 00:20:39,102
This is a supplement one page
in the report
477
00:20:39,104 --> 00:20:41,271
Where an officer wrote down,
478
00:20:41,273 --> 00:20:44,675
"andrew and ken advised
that frank told him
479
00:20:44,744 --> 00:20:48,111
He had been having trouble
with some neighborhood kids
480
00:20:48,181 --> 00:20:50,247
That were stealing from him."
481
00:20:50,249 --> 00:20:52,349
I recall that now. Yeah.
482
00:20:52,418 --> 00:20:54,051
Do you remember any more detail
483
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:55,719
About what he said
the problems were with him?
484
00:20:55,788 --> 00:20:58,255
No. I don't.
485
00:20:58,323 --> 00:21:00,057
Frank didn't go around
flashing money, right?
486
00:21:00,125 --> 00:21:01,391
Oh, hell, no.
487
00:21:01,461 --> 00:21:02,860
The kind of guy
that neighborhood kids
488
00:21:02,928 --> 00:21:04,928
Would think obviously
has money hidden in his house.
489
00:21:04,930 --> 00:21:08,799
- Anything like that?
- I never picked up any of that.
490
00:21:08,801 --> 00:21:11,302
Frank's friends don't seem
to really know too much more
491
00:21:11,370 --> 00:21:13,170
More about these kids
being involved
492
00:21:13,238 --> 00:21:15,072
Or if there's even
anything more to it,
493
00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:17,208
And that's helpful for the case.
494
00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:19,042
It is the kind of thing, though,
that a defense lawyer
495
00:21:19,112 --> 00:21:22,045
Wants to play with to try
and turn into reasonable doubt
496
00:21:22,115 --> 00:21:24,081
Or to try
and throw mud on your case.
497
00:21:24,150 --> 00:21:25,883
So that's why we have
to look into it
498
00:21:25,951 --> 00:21:27,284
And do whatever we can
499
00:21:27,353 --> 00:21:29,186
To try and clear it up
and clear it out.
500
00:21:29,255 --> 00:21:31,221
All right, guys, well, thank you
all for your time today.
501
00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:32,890
- Thank you.
- We're trying everything.
502
00:21:40,232 --> 00:21:43,534
Siegler: So, all this
credit card transaction stuff.
503
00:21:43,602 --> 00:21:46,770
Pull out your notes so we can
make it nice and accurate.
504
00:21:46,772 --> 00:21:49,173
We know that frank's credit card
was used shortly
505
00:21:49,241 --> 00:21:53,010
After his murder, so now
it's time to take a deep dive
506
00:21:53,078 --> 00:21:56,346
Into the details of all those
credit card transactions.
507
00:21:56,348 --> 00:21:59,950
So, we think frank
goes to the store
508
00:22:00,019 --> 00:22:04,655
And maybe menards
on Friday, October 26.
509
00:22:04,723 --> 00:22:07,425
Right now we're thinking that's
also the day he's murdered.
510
00:22:07,427 --> 00:22:08,625
Newman:
Based on the grocery receipt
511
00:22:08,627 --> 00:22:10,061
That was found
at the crime scene,
512
00:22:10,129 --> 00:22:11,462
Police believe that frank
513
00:22:11,530 --> 00:22:13,731
Was killed shortly
after 2 p.M. On the 26th.
514
00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:17,468
What's the next thing you
care about on Friday the 26th?
515
00:22:17,536 --> 00:22:20,671
Credit card use at
waterfront lounge at 10:34 p.M.
516
00:22:20,739 --> 00:22:23,774
That's the first one?
How much does he use this time?
517
00:22:23,843 --> 00:22:25,275
$50 on the nose.
518
00:22:25,344 --> 00:22:27,378
The first charge
on frank's stolen credit card
519
00:22:27,446 --> 00:22:30,080
Was at 10:34 p.M.
At a local bar.
520
00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:32,116
It was then used
eight more times
521
00:22:32,184 --> 00:22:34,518
At two different bars
and a gas station.
522
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,787
Okay, so after 2:49
in the morning
523
00:22:36,856 --> 00:22:39,890
On Saturday the 27th,
nothing happens
524
00:22:39,959 --> 00:22:41,558
Until the night
of Saturday the 27th.
525
00:22:41,627 --> 00:22:44,728
We had a 9:57
at little saver food store
526
00:22:44,797 --> 00:22:47,164
And then 11:15
back at waterfront.
527
00:22:47,232 --> 00:22:49,300
There's a couple more charges
on the 27th
528
00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:51,402
At food mart
and then back at the bar.
529
00:22:51,470 --> 00:22:53,837
I'm wondering if the plan
was to use frank's card
530
00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:55,939
As much as possible
until the body was discovered.
531
00:22:56,008 --> 00:22:58,942
Okay, so now we're rolling
into Monday, October 29th.
532
00:22:59,011 --> 00:23:01,579
Newman: He gets ambitious
and hits western union.
533
00:23:01,647 --> 00:23:05,883
And I'm showing the western
union's for $227 and $284.
534
00:23:05,951 --> 00:23:08,385
So now he's got $500 cash
walking-around money.
535
00:23:08,387 --> 00:23:10,287
Newman: By day four,
he's getting bold.
536
00:23:10,355 --> 00:23:14,191
He used a computer to steal
hundreds via western union.
537
00:23:14,259 --> 00:23:15,726
And then we have
three more gas stations
538
00:23:15,795 --> 00:23:17,761
And six more charges at the bar.
539
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:21,765
Why is he bothering to do a part
for these little bitty amounts
540
00:23:21,767 --> 00:23:22,967
This close together?
541
00:23:23,035 --> 00:23:24,335
He probably looks shifty,
542
00:23:24,403 --> 00:23:25,969
And they won't
let him open a tab,
543
00:23:26,038 --> 00:23:27,971
So he's probably having to make,
like, a transaction
544
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,174
Every time he goes to the bar.
545
00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:34,778
So we got last activity
1:07 in the morning.
546
00:23:34,780 --> 00:23:36,714
The morning of Halloween,
547
00:23:36,782 --> 00:23:38,582
Frank's body
ends up being found.
548
00:23:38,584 --> 00:23:41,318
Newman: Now, remember,
he gets picked up at 1 a.M.
549
00:23:41,387 --> 00:23:43,687
At ruthie's on November 1.
550
00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:45,055
He doesn't have it on him
at that time.
551
00:23:45,124 --> 00:23:48,025
Brandon was located by police
on November 1st,
552
00:23:48,093 --> 00:23:50,427
And he tells them that he'd
been shacking up all weekend
553
00:23:50,496 --> 00:23:52,095
With a woman he'd met at a bar.
554
00:23:52,164 --> 00:23:54,131
He was never charged
with credit card fraud,
555
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,167
But if we can further prove
that he used that stolen card,
556
00:23:57,236 --> 00:23:59,302
That'd be fantastic evidence
to use
557
00:23:59,372 --> 00:24:01,071
To prove that he killed frank.
558
00:24:01,073 --> 00:24:02,806
I already did reach out
to the bank,
559
00:24:02,808 --> 00:24:05,208
And I was told they only
keep records for seven years.
560
00:24:05,277 --> 00:24:07,911
Okay. So that means
it's not admissible
561
00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:09,313
Unless somebody
can testify to it.
562
00:24:09,381 --> 00:24:11,648
- Who's still in business?
- Mm-mmm.
563
00:24:11,717 --> 00:24:14,151
What about those joints?
Beer joints?
564
00:24:14,219 --> 00:24:15,886
They're not either. Dang it.
565
00:24:15,955 --> 00:24:18,956
To be admissible in court,
every piece of evidence
566
00:24:19,024 --> 00:24:22,960
Has to have a witness to testify
to its authenticity.
567
00:24:23,028 --> 00:24:25,195
The easy way to make
all this admissible
568
00:24:25,197 --> 00:24:27,097
Would have been back then
569
00:24:27,099 --> 00:24:29,599
To have the paperwork from
the credit card transactions.
570
00:24:29,669 --> 00:24:31,735
If you didn't have that,
you could try to find
571
00:24:31,804 --> 00:24:34,705
The witnesses from the bars
or from the gas stations
572
00:24:34,773 --> 00:24:36,273
Who might still
be working there.
573
00:24:36,341 --> 00:24:38,475
But because it's been
so long ago,
574
00:24:38,543 --> 00:24:41,078
Finding old records
and employees
575
00:24:41,146 --> 00:24:42,980
Is pretty close to impossible.
576
00:24:43,048 --> 00:24:45,816
We may think
brandon used frank's cards,
577
00:24:45,884 --> 00:24:47,384
But right now we can't prove it.
578
00:24:47,453 --> 00:24:49,219
How do we get that in?
579
00:24:49,221 --> 00:24:51,388
We prove it by going through
the woman he was with.
580
00:24:51,457 --> 00:24:54,925
If you can use her
to legitimize the transactions,
581
00:24:54,994 --> 00:24:56,994
If you're the prosecutor
and you're in court,
582
00:24:57,062 --> 00:24:59,330
You argue it goes
to the weight of the evidence.
583
00:24:59,398 --> 00:25:01,198
We need to find this woman
584
00:25:01,267 --> 00:25:04,001
And hope that she saw brandon
use this card.
585
00:25:17,182 --> 00:25:19,249
Which one is this? Is this
the one he firebombed her car?
586
00:25:19,318 --> 00:25:20,284
Yeah.
587
00:25:20,352 --> 00:25:21,818
While we were busy trying
588
00:25:21,887 --> 00:25:23,654
To track down brandon scroggin's
alibi witness,
589
00:25:23,722 --> 00:25:25,622
There's another girlfriend
from his past
590
00:25:25,691 --> 00:25:28,158
That we think is very important
that we need to talk to.
591
00:25:28,227 --> 00:25:30,661
How you doing?
I'm murray newman.
592
00:25:30,729 --> 00:25:33,263
She dated brandon scroggin
a couple of years
593
00:25:33,265 --> 00:25:35,132
After frank halcarz's murder,
594
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,134
And we're wondering
what, if anything,
595
00:25:37,202 --> 00:25:39,436
He might have told her
about his grandfather's death.
596
00:25:39,505 --> 00:25:44,074
I dated him,
and that was really late 2011.
597
00:25:44,143 --> 00:25:47,577
And then by March,
he turned psychotic.
598
00:25:47,579 --> 00:25:52,716
He is very aggressive,
very dominating, very abusive.
599
00:25:52,784 --> 00:25:55,419
He kept calling me off
of a phone, turned off my phone,
600
00:25:55,487 --> 00:25:58,088
Wake up the next day,
my car he set on fire.
601
00:25:58,157 --> 00:26:00,691
And then after that, it was,
I have to leave my house
602
00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:02,926
Because he threatened
to set my trailer on fire.
603
00:26:02,995 --> 00:26:04,695
Left my house,
went to a shelter,
604
00:26:04,763 --> 00:26:06,497
Lost my kid because of him.
605
00:26:06,565 --> 00:26:08,699
And then I get out the shelter
a month later,
606
00:26:08,767 --> 00:26:11,068
And my house burns down
to the ground two weeks later.
607
00:26:11,136 --> 00:26:16,373
Did he ever talk to you at all
about frank?
608
00:26:16,441 --> 00:26:19,242
No. No. No.
And I don't know anything
609
00:26:19,244 --> 00:26:20,810
Other than
whenever I first got with him,
610
00:26:20,812 --> 00:26:22,912
He made me google his name
as well on the internet,
611
00:26:22,914 --> 00:26:23,981
And he made me read the article
612
00:26:24,049 --> 00:26:25,516
To where he was
the main suspect
613
00:26:25,584 --> 00:26:27,250
And was like,
"I want you to hear this from me
614
00:26:27,252 --> 00:26:29,320
Before you ever hear it
from somebody else."
615
00:26:29,388 --> 00:26:32,589
But he never elaborated on it
or said that he did or didn't.
616
00:26:32,658 --> 00:26:34,024
You get what I mean?
617
00:26:34,093 --> 00:26:36,460
He never admitted to me
as to anything.
618
00:26:36,528 --> 00:26:40,130
But he's obviously setting stuff
on fire to say that--
619
00:26:40,199 --> 00:26:42,465
That he's killed others and that
he would do the same to me.
620
00:26:42,467 --> 00:26:43,834
What exactly did he say?
621
00:26:43,902 --> 00:26:46,737
He would just say that he
would use the number five,
622
00:26:46,805 --> 00:26:49,406
Especially, like, every time,
say that he killed five people
623
00:26:49,474 --> 00:26:50,607
And that he'll kill me as well.
624
00:26:50,609 --> 00:26:51,842
Wow.
625
00:26:51,910 --> 00:26:54,077
This guy is out of control.
626
00:26:54,146 --> 00:26:57,014
He's clearly,
based on what she has told us,
627
00:26:57,082 --> 00:26:59,182
A very, very scary person.
628
00:26:59,251 --> 00:27:00,717
He would talk about
going to the city
629
00:27:00,786 --> 00:27:02,619
And literally
running up behind somebody
630
00:27:02,688 --> 00:27:04,254
And hitting them
in the back of the head
631
00:27:04,323 --> 00:27:05,522
And then reaching
in their pockets
632
00:27:05,591 --> 00:27:06,723
And taking
whatever he could get,
633
00:27:06,792 --> 00:27:08,926
Whether they were dead or alive.
634
00:27:08,994 --> 00:27:10,761
Newman: He apparently
liked to brag.
635
00:27:10,829 --> 00:27:12,495
He claimed multiple murders.
636
00:27:12,497 --> 00:27:14,765
It sounds a lot like
what happened to frank.
637
00:27:14,833 --> 00:27:15,899
Thank you so much.
638
00:27:15,968 --> 00:27:17,834
All righty. Thank you, guys.
639
00:27:17,903 --> 00:27:21,071
And I think all these pieces
are just fitting together
640
00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:22,973
In a very commonsensical way
641
00:27:23,041 --> 00:27:25,242
That makes a beautiful case
for a prosecutor.
642
00:27:25,244 --> 00:27:26,877
Sheesh. Bless her heart.
643
00:27:26,945 --> 00:27:28,145
She's been through
a lot of sh--
644
00:27:28,213 --> 00:27:29,513
With that psychopath,
that's for sure.
645
00:27:32,451 --> 00:27:35,618
She was definitely
visibly shaken.
646
00:27:35,688 --> 00:27:37,054
Still scared 10 years later.
647
00:27:37,122 --> 00:27:39,622
Oh, yeah. Also something
very interesting
648
00:27:39,624 --> 00:27:43,193
Was brandon told her that
he would sneak up behind people
649
00:27:43,262 --> 00:27:46,329
And hit them in the head
with an object.
650
00:27:46,331 --> 00:27:47,964
And then when they went down,
he would take
651
00:27:48,033 --> 00:27:49,466
Whatever they had
in their pockets and leave,
652
00:27:49,535 --> 00:27:52,435
Whether they were dead or alive.
653
00:27:52,437 --> 00:27:54,538
That's nice.
We never had that before.
654
00:27:54,606 --> 00:27:57,007
- No.
- Ooh, that's beautiful.
655
00:27:57,075 --> 00:27:59,343
- She was very clear on that.
- Let's call it a day.
656
00:27:59,411 --> 00:28:01,145
A good day. A good day.
657
00:28:03,882 --> 00:28:07,051
[laughter]
658
00:28:12,124 --> 00:28:15,024
- Siegler: Hello.
- Can I get you guys a drink?
659
00:28:15,026 --> 00:28:16,427
- Yes, ma'am.
- Okay.
660
00:28:16,495 --> 00:28:17,994
I'll take a miller lite.
661
00:28:18,063 --> 00:28:19,496
- A miller lite?
- Yes.
662
00:28:19,565 --> 00:28:20,764
Y'all have one of these at home?
663
00:28:20,833 --> 00:28:22,465
- Vfw?
- Yeah.
664
00:28:22,535 --> 00:28:23,701
- Siegler: Thank you.
- Yeah.
665
00:28:25,270 --> 00:28:27,170
I got so many stories about the
legion in blessing. It's crazy.
666
00:28:27,239 --> 00:28:29,472
It's really part
of your heritage growing up.
667
00:28:29,541 --> 00:28:32,509
Your grandpa was in world war ii
and your dad was in vietnam?
668
00:28:32,578 --> 00:28:34,911
Yeah. I can't help
but think of my grandfather
669
00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:37,914
Every time frank is brought up.
670
00:28:37,983 --> 00:28:40,683
What are you thinking about
what we're looking like?
671
00:28:40,685 --> 00:28:42,820
I think it's still very key
672
00:28:42,888 --> 00:28:44,221
That we talk to the woman
that he was with
673
00:28:44,289 --> 00:28:45,622
And keep our fingers crossed
674
00:28:45,690 --> 00:28:47,790
That her life
has been on a better path
675
00:28:47,792 --> 00:28:49,526
Than what brandon's has been
676
00:28:49,594 --> 00:28:51,528
And that she's willing
to help us out,
677
00:28:51,596 --> 00:28:53,330
Because I think
she's extremely key to this.
678
00:28:53,398 --> 00:28:55,866
- If we can find her.
- We can find her.
679
00:28:55,934 --> 00:28:57,801
As a defense attorney,
I'm always thinking about
680
00:28:57,869 --> 00:29:00,637
How a case is gonna unfold
in the courtroom.
681
00:29:00,705 --> 00:29:03,674
And even if we can find
brandon's weekend fling,
682
00:29:03,742 --> 00:29:05,809
If she's a drug addict
or criminal,
683
00:29:05,878 --> 00:29:07,444
It opens the door
to the defense team
684
00:29:07,513 --> 00:29:09,679
To challenge her credibility
and testimony.
685
00:29:09,748 --> 00:29:13,283
If we lose the credit card
piece of the case,
686
00:29:13,352 --> 00:29:15,152
What do we have?
687
00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:17,053
- Yeah.
- It's a whole different case.
688
00:29:17,122 --> 00:29:19,222
It's pretty much
an all-or-nothing proposition.
689
00:29:19,224 --> 00:29:21,558
We really need her to be
knowledgeable and credible.
690
00:29:24,062 --> 00:29:26,029
We are. And we're hoping
to have some luck.
691
00:29:26,098 --> 00:29:28,098
And we wanna make
your community proud,
692
00:29:28,166 --> 00:29:29,767
Lake station police department
look good,
693
00:29:29,835 --> 00:29:31,768
'cause they're trying
really hard to solve it.
694
00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:33,370
And the victim's
a world war ii veteran.
695
00:29:33,438 --> 00:29:34,872
Frank was one of y'all.
696
00:29:34,874 --> 00:29:36,506
Thank you all
for what you're doing, too.
697
00:29:36,575 --> 00:29:37,941
- Yes, sir.
- Hope you solve it.
698
00:29:47,017 --> 00:29:50,020
Newman: So, we're on our way
to see arguably
699
00:29:50,088 --> 00:29:53,623
The most important witness
to this case.
700
00:29:53,625 --> 00:29:56,093
If anybody that we've talked
to might have new information
701
00:29:56,161 --> 00:29:57,761
That wasn't disclosed
at the time,
702
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:59,263
This would be the first one.
703
00:29:59,331 --> 00:30:02,165
Today is a big day.
Perryman and murray
704
00:30:02,234 --> 00:30:04,902
Just got a new lead
on hopefully being able to find
705
00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:06,770
Brandon scroggin's
alibi witness.
706
00:30:06,838 --> 00:30:09,940
And peek is on his way
to a correctional facility
707
00:30:10,008 --> 00:30:11,708
Where brandon is incarcerated
708
00:30:11,777 --> 00:30:14,577
For crimes committed
against his ex-girlfriend.
709
00:30:14,646 --> 00:30:18,515
To make this case, we need
one of them to somehow confirm
710
00:30:18,583 --> 00:30:20,350
That brandon was the person
711
00:30:20,419 --> 00:30:22,886
Who used
frank's stolen credit cards.
712
00:30:22,954 --> 00:30:26,056
Obviously, what we're talking
about is there was a homicide.
713
00:30:26,124 --> 00:30:29,259
Right? So when did you meet him,
relative to when that happened?
714
00:30:29,328 --> 00:30:32,762
I was at might have been
the tap house back then.
715
00:30:32,831 --> 00:30:35,031
I remember this
particular person coming in,
716
00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:36,633
Like, in a wet hoodie.
717
00:30:36,635 --> 00:30:39,336
His name was brandon,
and he was real generous.
718
00:30:39,404 --> 00:30:41,204
He was buying everybody drinks.
719
00:30:41,206 --> 00:30:44,575
And I ended up
bringing him into my home
720
00:30:44,643 --> 00:30:45,976
And sleeping with him.
721
00:30:46,044 --> 00:30:48,411
And he didn't stay here
that often.
722
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,713
I don't even remember.
It was very, very short.
723
00:30:50,783 --> 00:30:52,482
It was more of like a fling.
724
00:30:52,551 --> 00:30:54,985
And I do remember
he had to use my computer
725
00:30:55,053 --> 00:30:59,056
At one point when he was here,
and he had a charge card.
726
00:30:59,124 --> 00:31:03,092
The name was the same as the
person that was in the paper.
727
00:31:03,094 --> 00:31:05,662
When it come up
that this man was murdered,
728
00:31:05,731 --> 00:31:07,831
It flipped me the ---- out
729
00:31:07,899 --> 00:31:10,233
Because he was using
his charge card.
730
00:31:10,235 --> 00:31:13,970
The coincidence of that
was slim.
731
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:15,438
This witness was fantastic.
732
00:31:15,507 --> 00:31:18,141
She remembers brandon
using frank's card.
733
00:31:18,209 --> 00:31:20,477
She confirmed a lot of things
that we already knew.
734
00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:23,780
Most importantly, a computer
was used on October 29th
735
00:31:23,849 --> 00:31:26,483
To transfer frank's money
via western union.
736
00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:27,885
And this was
before his body was found.
737
00:31:27,953 --> 00:31:30,453
I get nauseous thinking about
738
00:31:30,522 --> 00:31:33,690
That I spent time with somebody
that could have done that.
739
00:31:35,427 --> 00:31:38,195
That witness is gonna be
just a prosecutor's dream.
740
00:31:46,738 --> 00:31:48,971
How you doing, brandon?
I'm detective peek
741
00:31:48,973 --> 00:31:51,174
With the lake station
police department.
742
00:31:51,243 --> 00:31:55,645
I'm gonna set this up so I can
have my notes and things.
743
00:31:55,714 --> 00:31:57,480
I appreciate you
speaking with me today.
744
00:31:57,549 --> 00:31:59,349
It's important to me
745
00:31:59,418 --> 00:32:01,284
To have brandon
feel comfortable with me
746
00:32:01,286 --> 00:32:02,653
To get him to speak with me.
747
00:32:02,721 --> 00:32:05,155
My plan is to let brandon know
that I don't have
748
00:32:05,223 --> 00:32:07,590
Much information
from the previous detectives
749
00:32:07,592 --> 00:32:09,593
And that I'm just trying
to gather information.
750
00:32:09,661 --> 00:32:11,662
It's always good
when you can kind of play
751
00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:14,731
On his side in the beginning,
kind of warm him up.
752
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,735
What I'm looking into
is your grandfather.
753
00:32:18,804 --> 00:32:22,072
Can you tell me what
your relationship was with him?
754
00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:24,474
Yeah?
755
00:32:24,543 --> 00:32:27,344
So you were still living there
when he passed away? Okay.
756
00:32:27,412 --> 00:32:30,914
Do you remember hearing
about how frank was killed?
757
00:32:38,957 --> 00:32:41,591
So, you've seen it
in the newspaper? Okay.
758
00:32:53,472 --> 00:32:55,272
Does it bother you
759
00:32:55,340 --> 00:32:57,474
That we haven't found out
who killed frank?
760
00:33:11,156 --> 00:33:12,722
Do you know why that everybody
761
00:33:12,791 --> 00:33:14,091
Was just kind
of blaming you for it?
762
00:33:18,296 --> 00:33:20,129
You said you were using
his credit cards?
763
00:33:20,199 --> 00:33:22,265
Okay, talk to me about that.
764
00:33:39,218 --> 00:33:42,619
You use the card at waterfront.
Does that sound about right?
765
00:33:42,687 --> 00:33:45,154
Did you attempt to get money
from western union?
766
00:33:45,224 --> 00:33:47,390
Do you remember this?
767
00:33:47,458 --> 00:33:50,093
Okay. If I showed you this,
all these transactions,
768
00:33:50,161 --> 00:33:52,562
Does it look
like something that you...
769
00:33:56,434 --> 00:33:57,801
Okay.
770
00:33:57,869 --> 00:33:59,636
And this is from a credit card
771
00:33:59,704 --> 00:34:03,840
That you located
inside of frank's house? Okay.
772
00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:06,743
Brandon was very open to
speaking with me about things.
773
00:34:06,811 --> 00:34:08,445
He felt
that the statute of limitations
774
00:34:08,513 --> 00:34:10,079
On the credit card use
was an issue.
775
00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:11,748
So he admitted to me
776
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:14,083
That he'd stolen the credit
cards from frank halcarz,
777
00:34:14,085 --> 00:34:16,119
And he used them
at all those locations.
778
00:34:16,187 --> 00:34:18,155
Around that time period,
779
00:34:18,157 --> 00:34:20,857
Were you asked to leave
by frank or the police?
780
00:34:24,129 --> 00:34:25,828
Okay.
781
00:34:26,565 --> 00:34:29,366
Did he ask you to leave
the house that day?
782
00:34:29,434 --> 00:34:33,436
Were you asking frank for money
around that time period?
783
00:34:33,505 --> 00:34:35,138
Because I have a report
that said you did.
784
00:34:35,206 --> 00:34:36,806
That's what frank said.
785
00:34:36,808 --> 00:34:40,076
We know you used the card
at all these places. Okay?
786
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:44,080
Frank's wallet was taken
from him at some point.
787
00:34:44,148 --> 00:34:45,482
We know that for a fact.
788
00:34:45,550 --> 00:34:47,918
I know his cards were removed
from his wallet.
789
00:34:47,986 --> 00:34:50,087
I know you and frank
weren't on the best terms.
790
00:34:50,155 --> 00:34:52,055
The person that had a problem
with frank was you.
791
00:35:03,368 --> 00:35:06,703
Tell me about your relationship
with [bleep].
792
00:35:06,705 --> 00:35:08,638
What would she have
to say about you?
793
00:35:12,677 --> 00:35:16,746
She stated that you said
you've killed four people before
794
00:35:16,748 --> 00:35:19,148
And she could be number five.
795
00:35:19,217 --> 00:35:21,684
Did you ever make that statement
in a heat a passion to her
796
00:35:21,753 --> 00:35:24,154
Or a reason
why she would say that?
797
00:35:27,492 --> 00:35:30,527
Brandon seemed to discredit
any witness that I spoke with.
798
00:35:30,595 --> 00:35:32,529
Every time I would bring up
one of those witnesses,
799
00:35:32,597 --> 00:35:35,198
He would just paint
a bad picture of them,
800
00:35:35,267 --> 00:35:37,333
Which is typical behavior
in someone
801
00:35:37,402 --> 00:35:40,270
That is, you know,
a suspect in a case.
802
00:35:40,338 --> 00:35:41,938
All right, that's all I got.
803
00:35:42,007 --> 00:35:44,808
Feel pretty great that we can
get some closure to this.
804
00:35:47,312 --> 00:35:49,312
Yes, sir.
805
00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:52,282
He admitted to using
the credit card, so...
806
00:35:52,350 --> 00:35:54,350
- Really?
- Yeah, he stated he used it,
807
00:35:54,419 --> 00:35:58,255
But his claim was
that he retrieved the cards
808
00:35:58,257 --> 00:35:59,689
From inside of the residence.
809
00:35:59,758 --> 00:36:01,157
He said that frank
just had cards
810
00:36:01,226 --> 00:36:02,993
Lying around
inside of the residence.
811
00:36:03,061 --> 00:36:06,462
And I even showed him
the printout of what we had,
812
00:36:06,531 --> 00:36:08,665
And he pretty much said, yeah,
I used them in all these places.
813
00:36:08,733 --> 00:36:09,966
Oh, my god, that's great.
814
00:36:10,035 --> 00:36:12,168
Newman: We had
a one-two punch today.
815
00:36:12,237 --> 00:36:16,138
We talked to an amazing witness.
She has this huge realization
816
00:36:16,208 --> 00:36:19,609
That this guy is using this
murder victim's credit cards.
817
00:36:19,678 --> 00:36:23,646
In the meantime, you've got
brandon scroggin in prison,
818
00:36:23,648 --> 00:36:27,684
And he's confirming
all of these things as well.
819
00:36:27,752 --> 00:36:30,319
Truly, that might be
the best luck we've ever had
820
00:36:30,321 --> 00:36:32,355
Talking to a suspect. Ooh.
821
00:36:45,136 --> 00:36:47,403
I just think
it's so awesome yesterday
822
00:36:47,472 --> 00:36:49,538
That the interview
with our witness was unfolding
823
00:36:49,540 --> 00:36:51,508
At the same time
as the interview with brandon,
824
00:36:51,576 --> 00:36:52,908
And they were matching.
825
00:36:52,978 --> 00:36:54,811
I'm glad he's so smart,
aren't you?
826
00:36:54,879 --> 00:36:56,012
Talking about the credit cards.
827
00:36:56,014 --> 00:36:57,380
Seriously.
828
00:36:57,449 --> 00:37:00,250
You couldn't have
a more sympathetic victim.
829
00:37:00,318 --> 00:37:03,152
You couldn't have
a less sympathetic suspect.
830
00:37:03,221 --> 00:37:04,854
Siegler: We had
a great day yesterday.
831
00:37:04,923 --> 00:37:06,723
So now we're ready to review
832
00:37:06,791 --> 00:37:09,258
And go over everything
that we've uncovered
833
00:37:09,328 --> 00:37:12,929
In the 2007 murder
of frank halcarz.
834
00:37:12,997 --> 00:37:15,098
You about to be
feeling good today, right?
835
00:37:15,166 --> 00:37:16,733
- Oh, yeah.
- My daughter called me
836
00:37:16,801 --> 00:37:19,435
And she goes, "how'd it go
today on your case, mom?"
837
00:37:19,504 --> 00:37:21,371
I said, "we had a great day."
838
00:37:21,439 --> 00:37:23,373
And I told her
each of your stories,
839
00:37:23,441 --> 00:37:26,275
And she's like, "you don't have
very many days like that."
840
00:37:26,277 --> 00:37:28,645
And I said, "we sure do not."
tell me again
841
00:37:28,713 --> 00:37:30,880
How long y'all worked
in gary, indiana, captain.
842
00:37:30,949 --> 00:37:32,148
About 11 years.
843
00:37:32,217 --> 00:37:33,550
- And you?
- Ten.
844
00:37:33,618 --> 00:37:37,220
Man, it shows. It shows.
Y'all are great.
845
00:37:37,288 --> 00:37:39,889
At this point,
we all feel that we have more
846
00:37:39,958 --> 00:37:41,724
Than enough
circumstantial evidence
847
00:37:41,726 --> 00:37:43,926
To present to the lake county
prosecutor's office
848
00:37:43,928 --> 00:37:45,562
And explaining
who was responsible
849
00:37:45,630 --> 00:37:48,598
For killing frank halcarz
and who wasn't.
850
00:37:48,666 --> 00:37:51,334
Once upon a time,
we put up there looking
851
00:37:51,403 --> 00:37:53,736
Into unknown suspect.
852
00:37:53,738 --> 00:37:55,572
And now that we've talked
to everybody,
853
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,940
Is there anything
we need to correct or add
854
00:37:58,009 --> 00:38:00,076
With what we learned about this?
855
00:38:00,078 --> 00:38:03,345
No, nothing at all. Once again,
especially with the number
856
00:38:03,347 --> 00:38:04,981
Of people that we talked with,
857
00:38:05,049 --> 00:38:07,750
The neighborhood kids thing
not coming up from anybody else
858
00:38:07,752 --> 00:38:09,552
Other than his vfw buddies.
859
00:38:09,621 --> 00:38:11,354
You remember any more detail
860
00:38:11,423 --> 00:38:13,089
About what he said
the problems were with him?
861
00:38:13,157 --> 00:38:14,991
No. I don't.
862
00:38:15,059 --> 00:38:17,627
Frank didn't go around
flashing money, right?
863
00:38:17,696 --> 00:38:19,629
- Oh, hell, no.
- I was picturing him
864
00:38:19,697 --> 00:38:22,365
As walking around town
like a smart-dressed man.
865
00:38:22,434 --> 00:38:24,034
- Not really.
- Not flashy at all.
866
00:38:24,102 --> 00:38:26,435
Not anything that anyone
would walk past the house
867
00:38:26,505 --> 00:38:28,370
And think, "I'm gonna go here
and rob somebody."
868
00:38:28,372 --> 00:38:30,807
Yeah. Pete, what do you think
869
00:38:30,875 --> 00:38:32,809
About unknown suspects still
being up here on the board?
870
00:38:32,877 --> 00:38:35,244
- I don't think it's possible.
- Captain, same?
871
00:38:35,313 --> 00:38:37,047
- Same.
- Yeah.
872
00:38:37,115 --> 00:38:39,882
All right, we're gonna take
unknown suspect off the board.
873
00:38:39,951 --> 00:38:41,951
Siegler: There might have been
some rumors that frank
874
00:38:42,020 --> 00:38:44,254
Was having trouble
with boys in the neighborhood.
875
00:38:44,322 --> 00:38:46,723
Is it reasonable
to make that jump
876
00:38:46,791 --> 00:38:48,458
To they're the ones
who killed him?
877
00:38:48,526 --> 00:38:50,827
Not with everything
that we've learned. Not at all.
878
00:38:50,895 --> 00:38:52,895
Okay, so let's start talking
about brandon.
879
00:38:52,897 --> 00:38:55,331
When you're gonna sell
your case to your prosecutor,
880
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,767
What would you say
to make them know
881
00:38:57,836 --> 00:39:00,936
Brandon scroggin is responsible
for killing frank?
882
00:39:01,006 --> 00:39:03,339
Peek: Brandon has
a history of crime.
883
00:39:03,408 --> 00:39:06,376
Everyone we've talked to stated
that he had no empathy.
884
00:39:06,444 --> 00:39:08,878
Frank asked him
to leave days prior,
885
00:39:08,947 --> 00:39:12,148
So his return would obviously
cause conflict with frank.
886
00:39:17,255 --> 00:39:19,422
So frank told you that directly,
887
00:39:19,491 --> 00:39:22,758
That he told brandon to leave
and that was enough?
888
00:39:23,394 --> 00:39:25,061
He's sitting there
telling his ex-girlfriend,
889
00:39:25,129 --> 00:39:27,764
"I would sneak up on people
to rob them,
890
00:39:27,832 --> 00:39:30,232
Hit 'em in the back of the head
and turn out their pockets."
891
00:39:30,234 --> 00:39:31,534
That's your m.O.
892
00:39:31,602 --> 00:39:33,236
He would talk
about going to the city
893
00:39:33,304 --> 00:39:35,638
And literally running up
behind somebody and hitting them
894
00:39:35,707 --> 00:39:38,140
In the back of the head and
then reaching in their pockets
895
00:39:38,209 --> 00:39:40,710
And taking whatever he could get
whether they were dead or alive.
896
00:39:40,778 --> 00:39:43,146
She thought it was odd because
when she got with brandon,
897
00:39:43,214 --> 00:39:45,748
He made her google this case.
898
00:39:45,817 --> 00:39:47,616
Let's say I was accused
of something.
899
00:39:47,618 --> 00:39:49,485
I would say, "hey,
I just want you to see this
900
00:39:49,554 --> 00:39:51,053
Before you find out later."
901
00:39:51,055 --> 00:39:53,122
And then I would go on to say,
"I had nothing
902
00:39:53,191 --> 00:39:54,858
To do with this"
or blah, blah, blah.
903
00:39:54,926 --> 00:39:57,193
She said,
"brandon didn't say anything."
904
00:39:57,261 --> 00:39:58,661
He just said,
"I want you to see this."
905
00:39:58,730 --> 00:40:00,863
Credit card use is major.
906
00:40:00,932 --> 00:40:02,832
We have him at that time
that frank was killed,
907
00:40:02,901 --> 00:40:06,369
And he's just having a heyday
using credit cards excessively.
908
00:40:06,437 --> 00:40:07,870
I handed him the paper
and I said,
909
00:40:07,939 --> 00:40:09,539
"hey, does this look
like everything you did?"
910
00:40:09,607 --> 00:40:11,240
And he's like, "oh, yeah."
911
00:40:11,242 --> 00:40:12,975
If I showed you this,
all these transactions,
912
00:40:13,044 --> 00:40:16,212
Does it look
like something that you...
913
00:40:18,349 --> 00:40:19,982
Okay.
914
00:40:20,051 --> 00:40:22,785
I actually have a suggestion
that I highly recommend
915
00:40:22,854 --> 00:40:24,320
And your prosecutor
will love you for it,
916
00:40:24,389 --> 00:40:26,556
Is take the piece of paper
that you showed him
917
00:40:26,624 --> 00:40:28,791
And tag it
into evidence right now.
918
00:40:28,793 --> 00:40:31,027
- Okay.
- You're in court. You can say,
919
00:40:31,095 --> 00:40:33,129
"do you have the piece of paper
you've showed him? Yep.
920
00:40:33,197 --> 00:40:35,164
Is this it? Yes, it is.
How do you know?
921
00:40:35,233 --> 00:40:36,432
Here are my initials."
922
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:38,634
And, boom,
you just proved it up.
923
00:40:38,703 --> 00:40:40,036
And you will have
just sidestepped
924
00:40:40,104 --> 00:40:41,670
About three witnesses
925
00:40:41,740 --> 00:40:43,072
That the prosecutor
would have to call
926
00:40:43,141 --> 00:40:44,974
To prove it up otherwise.
927
00:40:45,043 --> 00:40:47,509
This case shows
that when everybody
928
00:40:47,511 --> 00:40:49,812
Is united in what they think
about the suspect,
929
00:40:49,881 --> 00:40:53,115
Personality-wise
and criminal history-wise
930
00:40:53,117 --> 00:40:54,551
And all the things he's done
931
00:40:54,553 --> 00:40:57,119
And they cooperate
and they're all still around--
932
00:40:57,121 --> 00:40:59,856
Incredible--look what you can do
with a cold case.
933
00:40:59,924 --> 00:41:02,324
His own family is telling
everything they can on him
934
00:41:02,326 --> 00:41:03,359
Because they know
that he ought to get in trouble
935
00:41:03,427 --> 00:41:04,460
For what he did.
936
00:41:04,529 --> 00:41:06,328
It's really telling
937
00:41:06,398 --> 00:41:09,698
If you look at a picture of
frank halcarz at the age of 23.
938
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:13,636
He is about to go off to war,
where he may not come back,
939
00:41:13,704 --> 00:41:16,105
And he's doing it
out of a sense of duty.
940
00:41:16,174 --> 00:41:17,774
He is everything
941
00:41:17,842 --> 00:41:20,677
That 23-year-old
brandon scroggin is not.
942
00:41:41,866 --> 00:41:43,432
- Good morning.
- Good morning.
943
00:41:43,501 --> 00:41:45,401
Perryman and peek
had their meeting
944
00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:47,236
With the prosecutor's office,
945
00:41:47,305 --> 00:41:50,406
And now we want to update devin
on everything they learned
946
00:41:50,474 --> 00:41:53,009
And all the progress
that's been made with the case.
947
00:41:53,077 --> 00:41:54,377
He brought help today.
948
00:41:54,445 --> 00:41:56,979
- Hi. Nice to meet you.
- Nice to meet you.
949
00:41:57,048 --> 00:41:59,281
It went really well.
Everybody that we talked to
950
00:41:59,350 --> 00:42:02,018
We're super excited to know that
the case is being worked on,
951
00:42:02,086 --> 00:42:03,653
And I think
they're all gonna feel good
952
00:42:03,721 --> 00:42:04,854
When they hear about this.
953
00:42:04,922 --> 00:42:06,555
These guys did a wonderful job.
954
00:42:06,557 --> 00:42:08,825
- Thank you.
- He went and talked to brandon.
955
00:42:08,893 --> 00:42:10,893
We spoke
for about an hour and a half.
956
00:42:10,895 --> 00:42:12,662
He didn't say a lot
to help himself.
957
00:42:12,730 --> 00:42:14,396
- You know what I mean?
- Mm-hmm.
958
00:42:14,466 --> 00:42:16,533
We spoke with our prosecutors.
We submitted everything,
959
00:42:16,601 --> 00:42:18,367
All the work
that we did throughout the week,
960
00:42:18,369 --> 00:42:21,671
Presenting charges for brandon.
961
00:42:21,739 --> 00:42:25,107
We got a few more small details
we got to button up.
962
00:42:25,176 --> 00:42:29,145
Our prosecutor that we spoke
with feels pretty confident.
963
00:42:29,213 --> 00:42:31,714
I don't wanna make any promises
'cause other things can happen,
964
00:42:31,716 --> 00:42:35,117
But it was
a very positive meeting.
965
00:42:35,186 --> 00:42:38,020
I'm extremely grateful
for them for this,
966
00:42:38,089 --> 00:42:39,355
For everything they've done.
967
00:42:39,424 --> 00:42:41,691
Knowing that we'll have
some closure
968
00:42:41,759 --> 00:42:43,860
And justice for my grandpa,
that's what matters.
969
00:42:47,832 --> 00:42:51,634
I'm at peace,
happy and relieved.
970
00:42:51,703 --> 00:42:54,370
How do you think
that's gonna affect
971
00:42:54,439 --> 00:42:55,705
Your family,
your mom and everybody?
972
00:42:55,773 --> 00:42:57,507
I'm not really sure.
973
00:42:57,575 --> 00:43:00,042
I think justice
is more important.
974
00:43:00,111 --> 00:43:02,011
For me. I can't speak for them.
975
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,313
I'm sure some
are gonna be upset.
976
00:43:04,315 --> 00:43:06,215
This is a great case.
977
00:43:06,217 --> 00:43:08,718
We're all excited to see
where it goes from here,
978
00:43:08,786 --> 00:43:12,288
Because frank halcarz
was a great man.
979
00:43:12,356 --> 00:43:15,891
He served our country.
He led a long, full life.
980
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,127
It was taken from him
still too short.
981
00:43:18,196 --> 00:43:19,928
Give me a hug.
982
00:43:19,930 --> 00:43:22,932
And up until now, all his family
could think about is,
983
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,035
Why does someone get away
with murdering a man like that?
984
00:43:26,104 --> 00:43:28,470
But hopefully today,
with all these answers...
985
00:43:28,472 --> 00:43:30,139
- It was nice meeting you.
- You, too.
986
00:43:30,141 --> 00:43:32,342
...They can finally switch
that focus
987
00:43:32,410 --> 00:43:35,645
And appreciate that now
they can finally get justice.