1 00:00:15,648 --> 00:00:19,384 You look so good. Look like you're going to court. 2 00:00:19,453 --> 00:00:21,119 You're not gonna make fun of my driving like you usually do? 3 00:00:21,188 --> 00:00:23,388 I'm gonna make fun of everything you do this entire week. 4 00:00:23,457 --> 00:00:25,490 I'm so dang excited you're here. 5 00:00:25,559 --> 00:00:27,492 - Get your ass in the car now. - All right. 6 00:00:27,494 --> 00:00:30,161 Man, I'm so excited that my good friend murray newman 7 00:00:30,163 --> 00:00:32,131 Is coming to work with us on this next case. 8 00:00:32,133 --> 00:00:35,834 I've known him forever. He's a legal super genius 9 00:00:35,902 --> 00:00:37,436 And one of the smartest people that I know. 10 00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,539 ♪ better know better ♪ 11 00:00:40,607 --> 00:00:42,975 ♪ better know this ♪ 12 00:00:43,877 --> 00:00:47,346 ♪ every step and every breath ♪ 13 00:00:47,414 --> 00:00:49,448 I met you during the brian gonzalez trial 14 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:50,915 As you were an intern. 15 00:00:50,917 --> 00:00:52,651 So you weren't even out of law school yet. 16 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:56,821 No. I was between my first and second year of law school, 1997. 17 00:00:56,891 --> 00:01:00,359 Never been married before. I still had some hair. 18 00:01:00,427 --> 00:01:02,594 You've known me longer than all your marriages added up. 19 00:01:02,663 --> 00:01:04,830 - Oh, yeah. Easily. - I like that. 20 00:01:04,832 --> 00:01:06,698 I'm excited, too. 21 00:01:06,767 --> 00:01:09,068 Not just because it's you and we know each other so well. 22 00:01:09,136 --> 00:01:11,737 All these years, you've been putting the case together, too, 23 00:01:11,805 --> 00:01:13,372 Behind the scenes 24 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,574 For the probable cause, for the prosecutor. 25 00:01:15,642 --> 00:01:17,342 And people don't know, but every day, 26 00:01:17,411 --> 00:01:19,177 You and I sit and talk about everything 27 00:01:19,246 --> 00:01:21,046 And figure out what we have and where we need to go. 28 00:01:21,114 --> 00:01:23,815 So the strategizing, the true strategizing, 29 00:01:23,884 --> 00:01:26,117 Has been you and me for 10 years. 30 00:01:26,119 --> 00:01:27,886 Right. 31 00:01:27,955 --> 00:01:29,354 I've been working on "cold justice" since the first season 32 00:01:29,356 --> 00:01:31,490 As a legal consultant off camera. 33 00:01:31,558 --> 00:01:33,692 Kelly and I worked at the district attorney's office, 34 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,494 So we both have the legal experience 35 00:01:35,562 --> 00:01:37,629 Of being a prosecutor. But unlike kelly, 36 00:01:37,698 --> 00:01:39,097 I've got the experience of being 37 00:01:39,166 --> 00:01:40,965 A criminal defense attorney as well. 38 00:01:41,035 --> 00:01:42,734 As a defense attorney, I have 39 00:01:42,803 --> 00:01:44,703 A slightly different outlook on how circumstantial evidence 40 00:01:44,771 --> 00:01:46,839 Can be used in trying to solve a case. 41 00:01:46,907 --> 00:01:49,407 Hopefully, we can help lake station police figure out 42 00:01:49,476 --> 00:01:53,111 Who murdered frank halcarz and prove it. 43 00:01:53,180 --> 00:01:54,713 Siegler: What did you think when you first read it? 44 00:01:54,781 --> 00:01:57,582 The overwhelming thing for me was just how sad it is. 45 00:01:57,584 --> 00:02:01,553 This is an 89-year-old man who is a world war ii veteran, 46 00:02:01,622 --> 00:02:03,588 Our country's national treasures, 47 00:02:03,590 --> 00:02:05,190 And he's robbed and beaten 48 00:02:05,258 --> 00:02:08,893 And just left in such an undignified manner. 49 00:02:08,963 --> 00:02:10,129 It's heartbreaking. 50 00:02:10,197 --> 00:02:11,830 Newman: Frank was a two-time widower 51 00:02:11,899 --> 00:02:13,765 And a world war ii veteran 52 00:02:13,834 --> 00:02:15,567 Known for having a heart of gold. 53 00:02:15,636 --> 00:02:17,302 My grandfather fought in world war ii, 54 00:02:17,304 --> 00:02:18,903 So I know firsthand 55 00:02:18,973 --> 00:02:21,273 Why they called them the greatest generation. 56 00:02:21,341 --> 00:02:25,043 When you look at what an honorable man that frank was, 57 00:02:25,111 --> 00:02:27,879 It's absolutely horrendous to realize 58 00:02:27,948 --> 00:02:31,316 How his life ended in such a cowardly and senseless way. 59 00:02:31,384 --> 00:02:33,418 I was very close with my grandfather. 60 00:02:33,487 --> 00:02:36,354 He was my biggest hero. I'd lose my mind 61 00:02:36,423 --> 00:02:39,024 If anybody had ever treated my grandfather like that. 62 00:02:39,092 --> 00:02:40,425 This is the kind of case you fight the hardest for, 63 00:02:40,494 --> 00:02:42,261 Don't you think? 64 00:02:42,263 --> 00:02:44,963 Absolutely. How's my driving so far? 65 00:02:45,031 --> 00:02:46,665 - You're doing fine, honey. - [snickers] 66 00:02:48,402 --> 00:02:50,035 - Peek: Hello. - Siegler: Hello. Good morning. 67 00:02:50,103 --> 00:02:51,202 Detective peek. Nice to meet you. 68 00:02:51,272 --> 00:02:53,304 - I'm kelly. - Murray newman. 69 00:02:53,374 --> 00:02:55,073 - Captain perryman. - Assistant chief taylor. 70 00:02:55,142 --> 00:02:56,408 Nice to meet you, sir. 71 00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:57,976 - Jim richardson. - The boss. 72 00:02:58,045 --> 00:03:00,145 Nice to meet you. We're excited to be here. 73 00:03:00,213 --> 00:03:04,516 So back in 2007, what do you all remember about this case? 74 00:03:04,585 --> 00:03:05,917 Seeing the body. 75 00:03:05,986 --> 00:03:07,385 - Oh, you saw him? - Yes. 76 00:03:07,454 --> 00:03:09,021 It's kind of rough sometimes 77 00:03:09,089 --> 00:03:10,689 When you walk in and see an elderly gentleman 78 00:03:10,757 --> 00:03:13,124 That you know is a veteran, so... 79 00:03:13,193 --> 00:03:14,859 I think they're national treasures, 80 00:03:14,861 --> 00:03:17,261 And they definitely don't deserve 81 00:03:17,263 --> 00:03:19,298 To end up the way he did. 82 00:03:19,366 --> 00:03:21,199 You all are super motivated on this one. 83 00:03:21,201 --> 00:03:22,701 Absolutely. Yes. 84 00:03:22,769 --> 00:03:25,470 Can you say why it hasn't been cleared yet? 85 00:03:25,539 --> 00:03:27,505 We were in gary at the time, and we were dealing 86 00:03:27,574 --> 00:03:29,474 With about 136 homicides that year. 87 00:03:29,543 --> 00:03:30,909 Okay. 88 00:03:30,978 --> 00:03:32,744 You have one detective assigned to the case, 89 00:03:32,813 --> 00:03:34,412 And you have a certain amount of days to work the case. 90 00:03:34,481 --> 00:03:36,247 Then you get more work piled on, 91 00:03:36,249 --> 00:03:38,349 And when you hit that end, that's it. 92 00:03:38,419 --> 00:03:40,552 That's one reason this show works, 93 00:03:40,620 --> 00:03:42,253 Because we're forcing you 94 00:03:42,255 --> 00:03:45,023 To give us these two guys for seven working days, 95 00:03:45,091 --> 00:03:47,526 Which is a luxury you never really had on your cases. 96 00:03:47,594 --> 00:03:50,161 So we get it. We hear it everywhere. 97 00:03:50,230 --> 00:03:51,562 So thank you for letting us be here. 98 00:03:51,564 --> 00:03:52,831 - Not a problem. - We're excited. 99 00:03:52,899 --> 00:03:54,766 - We appreciate it. - Lead the way. 100 00:03:54,835 --> 00:03:56,901 Perryman: We met back in '06. 101 00:03:56,970 --> 00:03:59,571 We were forced to ride two-man unit for a long time 102 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:01,940 In gary, so... 103 00:04:02,008 --> 00:04:05,843 It was like being married for 10 years, give or take. 104 00:04:05,913 --> 00:04:08,780 Mm-hmm. I'm not saying we enjoy working these type of cases, 105 00:04:08,849 --> 00:04:10,448 'cause you kind of hope they don't happen. 106 00:04:10,517 --> 00:04:12,517 But, unfortunately, when it does, 107 00:04:12,586 --> 00:04:14,086 We really enjoy that type of work. 108 00:04:14,154 --> 00:04:19,424 Okay, so this is our picture of frank halcarz, sr. 109 00:04:19,492 --> 00:04:22,060 - And he was how old? - Peek: 89. 110 00:04:22,128 --> 00:04:23,895 I believe he was born in east chicago, 111 00:04:23,964 --> 00:04:25,163 Which isn't far from here. 112 00:04:25,232 --> 00:04:27,565 He's a world war ii veteran. 113 00:04:27,634 --> 00:04:28,933 Talking with people from the neighborhood, 114 00:04:28,935 --> 00:04:30,268 He's a great guy. 115 00:04:30,336 --> 00:04:33,572 He visited the vfw from time to time, 116 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,273 And he just kind of kept to himself. 117 00:04:35,275 --> 00:04:38,242 Siegler: Frank halcarz grew up around chicago. 118 00:04:38,244 --> 00:04:39,844 He was a boy scout. 119 00:04:39,913 --> 00:04:43,715 He joined the army from 1941 to 1945. 120 00:04:43,784 --> 00:04:47,185 He was married twice, and he was also widowed twice. 121 00:04:47,253 --> 00:04:50,088 His second wife passed away in 2005. 122 00:04:50,090 --> 00:04:52,056 At the time of the murder, frank was living alone, 123 00:04:52,126 --> 00:04:55,293 But he was still very close with his large blended family. 124 00:04:55,362 --> 00:04:57,996 In fact, the last person he talked to 125 00:04:58,064 --> 00:05:02,066 Was his step-granddaughter on October 26, 2007. 126 00:05:02,135 --> 00:05:05,503 So we know what day frank was found. 127 00:05:05,572 --> 00:05:09,073 - Halloween 2007. - Mm-hmm. 128 00:05:09,143 --> 00:05:13,244 But we think the murder happened on Friday the 26th. 129 00:05:13,313 --> 00:05:15,047 - Yes. - So he's out there five days. 130 00:05:15,115 --> 00:05:18,983 Peek: Right. On October 31st, a friend found frank face down, 131 00:05:18,985 --> 00:05:21,820 And he had a large hole in the back of his head, 132 00:05:21,888 --> 00:05:23,788 Probably about two or three inches. 133 00:05:23,857 --> 00:05:26,290 But he also had a laceration on his forehead, 134 00:05:26,292 --> 00:05:29,494 So that could have been from him falling once he was struck. 135 00:05:29,496 --> 00:05:31,963 Did he have any of this from defending himself at all? 136 00:05:31,965 --> 00:05:34,065 - Not that I recall. - Wow. Okay. 137 00:05:34,134 --> 00:05:37,201 He was found in the doorway. 138 00:05:37,271 --> 00:05:39,337 It's like an enclosed front porch. 139 00:05:39,406 --> 00:05:42,373 His rear pocket was pulled out. 140 00:05:42,375 --> 00:05:44,275 - Which tells you... - They took his wallet. 141 00:05:44,344 --> 00:05:46,678 Okay. What was the working theory back then 142 00:05:46,747 --> 00:05:48,480 As far as what the weapon could have been? 143 00:05:48,548 --> 00:05:50,882 Well, they did recover a sledgehammer, 144 00:05:50,951 --> 00:05:53,985 And detectives believe that it was involved. 145 00:05:54,054 --> 00:05:57,656 It was located on the railroad tracks just behind the house. 146 00:05:57,724 --> 00:06:00,692 The hammer was found very close to the crime scene. 147 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,027 And when you look at it, compared to the wounds 148 00:06:03,096 --> 00:06:05,464 On frank's head, we have a pretty good idea 149 00:06:05,532 --> 00:06:07,498 That that was probably the murder weapon. 150 00:06:07,568 --> 00:06:09,367 And it looks like he was unloading groceries 151 00:06:09,435 --> 00:06:10,568 When he was attacked. 152 00:06:10,637 --> 00:06:11,903 But did his killer follow him inside, 153 00:06:11,972 --> 00:06:14,339 Or was he already inside, lying in wait? 154 00:06:14,341 --> 00:06:18,576 Okay. Let's put up here "unknown suspect." 155 00:06:18,645 --> 00:06:20,645 What first makes this pop up? 156 00:06:20,714 --> 00:06:22,981 The report from his buddies. 157 00:06:23,049 --> 00:06:26,384 And the buddies are guys he hangs out with where? Vfw? 158 00:06:26,386 --> 00:06:28,220 It's a vfw. Yeah. 159 00:06:28,288 --> 00:06:31,322 And frank tells the two guys at the vfw what? 160 00:06:31,391 --> 00:06:33,391 Peek: He's been having trouble with neighborhood kids 161 00:06:33,460 --> 00:06:35,193 That were stealing from him. 162 00:06:35,261 --> 00:06:38,396 It's kind of the stuff that kids would do, right? 163 00:06:38,398 --> 00:06:42,166 This doesn't look like a real professional kind of thing. 164 00:06:42,235 --> 00:06:45,603 They were showing up and messing with his residence, 165 00:06:45,672 --> 00:06:48,439 So that was always the talk. 166 00:06:48,441 --> 00:06:50,775 "hey, these children could have been involved in it." 167 00:06:50,844 --> 00:06:53,277 Siegler: We don't know the extent of the trouble 168 00:06:53,347 --> 00:06:55,446 Frank was having with the local kids. 169 00:06:55,516 --> 00:06:57,181 But because he was 89 years old, 170 00:06:57,251 --> 00:06:59,417 He was a pretty easy target 171 00:06:59,485 --> 00:07:01,720 For anybody who wanted to take advantage of him. 172 00:07:01,788 --> 00:07:04,022 But they weren't the only ones he was having trouble with. 173 00:07:04,090 --> 00:07:05,990 Let's talk about brandon scroggin, 174 00:07:06,059 --> 00:07:09,093 Frank's step-grandson from his second marriage. 175 00:07:09,162 --> 00:07:11,429 When did he get all these tattoos? 176 00:07:11,497 --> 00:07:16,467 I know he got the face tattoos the day of and thereafter. 177 00:07:16,469 --> 00:07:18,069 I'm gonna put them both up, okay? 178 00:07:18,071 --> 00:07:21,506 And in 2007, brandon's how old? 179 00:07:21,575 --> 00:07:23,908 - 23. - 23. 180 00:07:23,910 --> 00:07:26,044 Peek: He stayed in a camper in the back of his residence. 181 00:07:26,112 --> 00:07:28,446 Newman: I got the feeling that he was still trying 182 00:07:28,514 --> 00:07:30,281 To be kind to brandon 183 00:07:30,283 --> 00:07:32,851 Because his wife would have wanted it that way. 184 00:07:32,919 --> 00:07:36,721 Peek: And frank was a great guy. He's helping out this kid. 185 00:07:36,790 --> 00:07:38,489 Any prior convictions or arrests? 186 00:07:38,491 --> 00:07:40,992 He has a jacket that's pretty huge. 187 00:07:41,060 --> 00:07:44,963 Auto theft warrants from '05. Burglary, 2005. 188 00:07:45,031 --> 00:07:46,965 Siegler: And we know he uses coke. 189 00:07:47,033 --> 00:07:47,966 Correct. 190 00:07:48,034 --> 00:07:49,601 August 4th, 191 00:07:49,669 --> 00:07:53,205 Frank reports his gun and his welder missing. 192 00:07:53,273 --> 00:07:56,140 And at that time, he mentioned brandon scroggin 193 00:07:56,142 --> 00:07:57,909 Living in the trailer on the property. 194 00:07:57,978 --> 00:07:59,710 - Two months before our murder. - Mm-hmm. 195 00:07:59,780 --> 00:08:01,112 And there was issues before 196 00:08:01,181 --> 00:08:03,247 About him stealing frank's debit card. 197 00:08:03,316 --> 00:08:04,516 Siegler: Frank had accused brandon 198 00:08:04,584 --> 00:08:06,484 Of stealing his debit cards in the past. 199 00:08:06,553 --> 00:08:08,686 And we know that one of frank's credit cards 200 00:08:08,755 --> 00:08:10,521 Was used after his death. 201 00:08:10,591 --> 00:08:12,624 But was brandon the one using that? 202 00:08:12,692 --> 00:08:14,525 We don't know. But those transactions 203 00:08:14,595 --> 00:08:15,894 Could be the huge piece of this puzzle. 204 00:08:20,133 --> 00:08:26,004 ♪ I found heaven when I looked in your eyes ♪ 205 00:08:26,072 --> 00:08:30,241 ♪ like a peaceful sort of kryptonite ♪ 206 00:08:30,310 --> 00:08:32,444 Peek: We're gonna go over to the vfw. 207 00:08:32,512 --> 00:08:34,546 - That's the place he hung out? - Yes. 208 00:08:34,614 --> 00:08:36,647 In lake station here, everybody kind of knows everybody, 209 00:08:36,717 --> 00:08:39,684 So typically, that's where the hangout is. 210 00:08:39,752 --> 00:08:42,520 Frank halcarz used to visit the vfw hall 211 00:08:42,589 --> 00:08:45,056 And hang out with his friends, so we're headed there today 212 00:08:45,125 --> 00:08:47,225 To talk to his step-granddaughter, devin. 213 00:08:47,293 --> 00:08:48,760 She also happens to be the cousin 214 00:08:48,828 --> 00:08:50,295 Of our suspect, brandon. 215 00:08:50,363 --> 00:08:52,997 She was only 16 at the time, 216 00:08:52,999 --> 00:08:55,634 But she was the last known person to talk to frank. 217 00:08:55,702 --> 00:08:57,235 - Hello. - Hi. 218 00:08:57,303 --> 00:08:58,570 - You're devin. - I'm devin. Hi. 219 00:08:58,638 --> 00:08:59,537 I'm kelly. Nice to meet you. 220 00:08:59,606 --> 00:09:01,039 Hi. Detective peek. 221 00:09:01,107 --> 00:09:03,141 - Hi. Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you. 222 00:09:03,209 --> 00:09:04,742 Can you talk to us about frank? 223 00:09:04,811 --> 00:09:06,244 The kind of person he was. 224 00:09:06,313 --> 00:09:08,613 My real grandpa passed away when I was, like, three, 225 00:09:08,681 --> 00:09:10,615 And I don't remember him at all. 226 00:09:10,683 --> 00:09:12,283 And then he came along 227 00:09:12,352 --> 00:09:16,487 And he was just, you know, my grandpa. 228 00:09:16,556 --> 00:09:19,658 He was just the only grandpa I ever had. 229 00:09:19,726 --> 00:09:22,226 I'll try not to cry this whole time. 230 00:09:22,295 --> 00:09:24,963 No, it's okay. It's sad enough that he was 89. 231 00:09:25,031 --> 00:09:26,831 Devin: Yeah. 232 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:28,867 And then we hear nothing but good things about him, right? 233 00:09:28,935 --> 00:09:31,936 He was such a great guy. 234 00:09:31,938 --> 00:09:35,073 They had such a cute relationship. 235 00:09:35,141 --> 00:09:37,275 You know, finding love so old. 236 00:09:37,343 --> 00:09:39,443 He used to always bother my grandma all the time. 237 00:09:39,445 --> 00:09:42,514 They just had this little thing going on. 238 00:09:42,582 --> 00:09:44,448 My grandma would act like she was annoyed, 239 00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:46,217 But he'd always tease her, 240 00:09:46,286 --> 00:09:48,386 And she'd always be like, "--damn it, frank." 241 00:09:48,455 --> 00:09:50,755 He was always working in the yard. 242 00:09:50,824 --> 00:09:52,290 He had a big pond back there. 243 00:09:52,359 --> 00:09:55,426 I used to go fishing with them all the time and camping. 244 00:09:55,428 --> 00:09:57,862 Frank was a veteran of world war ii. 245 00:09:57,931 --> 00:10:00,865 He didn't say much about it, but he was really proud. 246 00:10:00,934 --> 00:10:03,935 He was a sweet, sweet, funny man. 247 00:10:04,003 --> 00:10:07,571 He always was playing jokes and being a trickster. 248 00:10:07,573 --> 00:10:09,473 Even when I was younger with my grandma. 249 00:10:09,475 --> 00:10:13,044 And he was just always helpful and patient with me. 250 00:10:13,113 --> 00:10:17,248 Remember the last time that you had any contact with frank? 251 00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:20,051 My mom and my sister asked me to call him 252 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,054 To see if he was still coming to my nephew's birthday party. 253 00:10:23,123 --> 00:10:25,256 - Okay. - He said, "yeah, I'm coming." 254 00:10:25,325 --> 00:10:26,991 He just got back from the store or something, 255 00:10:27,060 --> 00:10:29,260 And then he never showed up. 256 00:10:29,329 --> 00:10:32,430 Anything in the telephone conversation you had with frank 257 00:10:32,498 --> 00:10:34,833 About troubles at his house or troubles in his life? 258 00:10:34,901 --> 00:10:36,768 No. 259 00:10:36,836 --> 00:10:38,903 - Anything about brandon? - No. 260 00:10:38,972 --> 00:10:41,505 I don't feel like he would say anything to me about... 261 00:10:41,507 --> 00:10:43,607 Probably not. Do you know anything about the relationship 262 00:10:43,677 --> 00:10:45,676 Brandon had with frank 263 00:10:45,746 --> 00:10:47,912 During those three years after your grandma passed away? 264 00:10:47,980 --> 00:10:49,547 - I have no idea. - Okay. 265 00:10:49,616 --> 00:10:53,785 I don't think a lot of my family really associated 266 00:10:53,853 --> 00:10:54,986 With brandon that much. 267 00:10:55,055 --> 00:10:56,888 I wasn't allowed to be around him. 268 00:10:56,956 --> 00:10:58,322 Even back then. 269 00:10:58,324 --> 00:11:01,960 Yeah. He was troubled. Yeah. 270 00:11:02,028 --> 00:11:06,030 He was always very mean and was getting into the drugs. 271 00:11:06,099 --> 00:11:09,100 Devin doesn't know much about any specific issues 272 00:11:09,169 --> 00:11:12,436 Going on between frank and her cousin brandon, 273 00:11:12,505 --> 00:11:15,774 But she was warned herself about brandon a long time ago, 274 00:11:15,842 --> 00:11:17,408 And we need to get to the bottom of that. 275 00:11:17,410 --> 00:11:21,379 He had no fear, and he didn't care about consequences. 276 00:11:25,317 --> 00:11:38,963 What's your understanding 277 00:11:39,032 --> 00:11:41,165 Of what's still standing on frank's property today 278 00:11:41,234 --> 00:11:42,734 For us to go look at? 279 00:11:42,802 --> 00:11:45,203 Basically the cinder blocks that held his house up. 280 00:11:45,205 --> 00:11:47,872 The rest of it's gone, which is unfortunate. 281 00:11:47,940 --> 00:11:49,807 Siegler: Hopefully we can talk about the area 282 00:11:49,876 --> 00:11:51,909 Where the porch is, where everything happened 283 00:11:51,978 --> 00:11:54,078 And then talk about exactly how it went down. 284 00:11:54,147 --> 00:11:57,482 We always want to know exactly how it happened. 285 00:11:57,550 --> 00:11:59,283 And sometimes we may not know the fine details, 286 00:11:59,352 --> 00:12:00,818 But we know enough. 287 00:12:00,887 --> 00:12:03,254 How he swung the hammer doesn't necessarily mean 288 00:12:03,322 --> 00:12:05,089 We can't figure out who swung the hammer. 289 00:12:05,158 --> 00:12:08,059 16 years ago, 89-year-old frank halcarz 290 00:12:08,128 --> 00:12:10,027 Was brutally murdered in his own home. 291 00:12:10,096 --> 00:12:12,831 We wanna get a lay of the land 292 00:12:12,833 --> 00:12:15,233 And try to recreate his killer's actions. 293 00:12:15,301 --> 00:12:17,701 This is the original driveway, right? 294 00:12:17,771 --> 00:12:19,337 Right. Correct. The trailer would have been 295 00:12:19,405 --> 00:12:21,038 In the grass at the very end over there. 296 00:12:21,107 --> 00:12:23,041 Siegler: This is one we think brandon stayed in. 297 00:12:23,109 --> 00:12:25,109 - Yes. - And what's roped off here? 298 00:12:25,111 --> 00:12:27,345 This would be a representation of the porch. 299 00:12:27,413 --> 00:12:29,347 This corner is actually 300 00:12:29,415 --> 00:12:31,482 An original corner of where the house was. 301 00:12:31,551 --> 00:12:33,884 So he would have, like--his feet would have been here, right? 302 00:12:33,886 --> 00:12:36,754 And his head basically right there. 303 00:12:36,823 --> 00:12:38,990 So then, murray, you be frank, 304 00:12:39,058 --> 00:12:41,025 And, pete, you be sledgehammer man. 305 00:12:41,094 --> 00:12:42,393 Okay. 306 00:12:42,462 --> 00:12:44,862 So y'all are thinking it went down how? 307 00:12:44,931 --> 00:12:48,799 I think he's coming out from inside the main house 308 00:12:48,801 --> 00:12:51,235 Because we know that he's got 309 00:12:51,304 --> 00:12:53,805 At least one more load of groceries in his vehicle. 310 00:12:53,873 --> 00:12:58,542 I think he set down one load, and he is coming back out, 311 00:12:58,611 --> 00:13:01,045 And I think he gets about this far 312 00:13:01,114 --> 00:13:03,147 Before he gets that first strike 313 00:13:03,149 --> 00:13:05,049 To the back of the left side of his head. 314 00:13:05,118 --> 00:13:06,750 Okay, so where do you think 315 00:13:06,752 --> 00:13:09,020 The sledgehammer suspect comes from? 316 00:13:09,088 --> 00:13:10,688 I think he followed him up the door. 317 00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:12,290 I think he came right behind him. 318 00:13:12,358 --> 00:13:14,592 Could they have been having an argument 319 00:13:14,661 --> 00:13:16,627 And he said, "you know what? Enough of this. 320 00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:18,029 I'm leaving and you need to, too," 321 00:13:18,097 --> 00:13:19,931 And walked out ahead of him? Yes. 322 00:13:19,999 --> 00:13:21,832 Or he could have walked in and seen him with a hammer 323 00:13:21,902 --> 00:13:23,667 And was like, "let me get out of here." 324 00:13:23,737 --> 00:13:26,304 Or he could have been hiding. You're never gonna know. 325 00:13:26,372 --> 00:13:28,439 Newman: Frank could have been struck after a confrontation. 326 00:13:28,508 --> 00:13:30,542 But we believe that some neighborhood kids, 327 00:13:30,610 --> 00:13:33,178 As well as frank's step-grandson brandon, 328 00:13:33,246 --> 00:13:35,013 Had been stealing from him. 329 00:13:35,081 --> 00:13:36,814 Maybe he came home in the middle of a burglary, 330 00:13:36,883 --> 00:13:38,416 And to avoid being caught, 331 00:13:38,484 --> 00:13:40,518 The burglar grabbed a nearby sledgehammer. 332 00:13:40,586 --> 00:13:43,587 So I believe he strikes him here. 333 00:13:44,123 --> 00:13:46,690 And then he falls onto his left side. 334 00:13:46,692 --> 00:13:48,592 The fall makes the dentures fall out. 335 00:13:48,661 --> 00:13:50,961 - Correct. - I think he comes this way. 336 00:13:50,963 --> 00:13:53,865 I believe he hits here. 337 00:13:53,933 --> 00:13:55,432 Mm! 338 00:13:55,502 --> 00:13:58,436 When pete did that blow to murray's little head, 339 00:13:58,504 --> 00:14:00,138 That's horrible. 340 00:14:00,206 --> 00:14:02,506 That's way worse than pulling the trigger on a gun. 341 00:14:02,508 --> 00:14:03,807 It was bad. 342 00:14:03,809 --> 00:14:06,510 So then he would remove the wallet 343 00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:08,112 And then exit out this way. 344 00:14:08,181 --> 00:14:10,915 When the police arrive, his wallet is not there. 345 00:14:10,984 --> 00:14:13,050 And his pocket's pulled out, too. 346 00:14:13,119 --> 00:14:15,052 And then what do we know happens out here? 347 00:14:15,121 --> 00:14:17,921 The sledgehammer was located right off the railroad tracks. 348 00:14:17,923 --> 00:14:20,758 You have the residence. He's going this way. 349 00:14:20,827 --> 00:14:22,727 He's not going back out the driveway. 350 00:14:22,795 --> 00:14:25,829 We think this happened around what time on Friday? 351 00:14:25,831 --> 00:14:26,764 - Around 5:00? - Late afternoon. 352 00:14:26,832 --> 00:14:28,299 3:00 to 5:00? 353 00:14:28,368 --> 00:14:30,702 And the first credit card uses at what time? 354 00:14:30,770 --> 00:14:32,503 10-ish. In the 10:00 hour. 355 00:14:32,572 --> 00:14:34,272 Siegler: Let's talk about brandon. 356 00:14:34,340 --> 00:14:36,975 If he went over there just to get money and frank busts him, 357 00:14:36,977 --> 00:14:38,877 Frank's gonna say, "what are you doing here?" 358 00:14:38,945 --> 00:14:41,412 - There's no reason to kill him. - No. 359 00:14:41,414 --> 00:14:43,281 Or he goes in there in the beginning, in the first place, 360 00:14:43,349 --> 00:14:44,948 When frank's not even home yet, waiting to get him, 361 00:14:44,950 --> 00:14:46,985 'cause that's his plan from the very beginning. 362 00:14:46,987 --> 00:14:49,621 Don't underestimate how mad it might be 363 00:14:49,689 --> 00:14:51,889 That he got the cops called on him from before. 364 00:14:51,958 --> 00:14:54,058 This was absolutely an ambush murder. 365 00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:56,760 This was just such a cheap shot. 366 00:14:56,762 --> 00:14:59,330 Brutal, cruel, cruel attack. 367 00:14:59,399 --> 00:15:01,465 It's heartbreaking that you have that in you 368 00:15:01,534 --> 00:15:06,103 To do to an 89-year-old war veteran laying on the ground. 369 00:15:06,172 --> 00:15:07,538 It's unspeakable. 370 00:15:07,540 --> 00:15:09,240 That was very helpful. Thank you. 371 00:15:17,116 --> 00:15:19,784 Siegler: Okay. John wiederhold. 372 00:15:19,852 --> 00:15:22,286 He says he's a stepson of the victim. 373 00:15:22,355 --> 00:15:24,522 As hotheaded as brandon can be, there's no telling 374 00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:27,057 What he might have told him over the years, too. 375 00:15:27,059 --> 00:15:29,594 It's time we start talking to everyone 376 00:15:29,662 --> 00:15:32,996 Who can tell us about frank and any strange relationship 377 00:15:32,998 --> 00:15:35,499 He might have had with his step-grandson brandon. 378 00:15:35,568 --> 00:15:38,302 Was it so bad that it could have led to murder? 379 00:15:38,371 --> 00:15:40,738 And why would he kill the man who was helping him 380 00:15:40,806 --> 00:15:43,307 More than anyone and giving him a place to live? 381 00:15:43,375 --> 00:15:47,078 I raised brandon from five years old till he was 18. 382 00:15:47,146 --> 00:15:50,047 - Yeah. - His mom died. 383 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:51,916 So, what about his dad? 384 00:15:53,453 --> 00:15:56,220 - That's why it fell on you. - Yeah. 385 00:15:56,288 --> 00:16:00,158 What do you know about frank and brandon's relationship? 386 00:16:00,226 --> 00:16:02,159 I know brandon got money off of him couple of times. 387 00:16:02,228 --> 00:16:04,395 And I talked to frank once more. 388 00:16:04,464 --> 00:16:05,696 I said, "don't give him no more money, frank. 389 00:16:05,765 --> 00:16:07,097 Don't give him more money. 390 00:16:07,099 --> 00:16:08,299 He's gonna go drink it up or get coke 391 00:16:08,368 --> 00:16:09,467 Or whatever he wants to do with it. 392 00:16:09,535 --> 00:16:11,469 Two months later or three months later, 393 00:16:11,537 --> 00:16:13,237 That's when they found him dead over there." 394 00:16:13,306 --> 00:16:14,305 - Really? - Yeah. 395 00:16:19,044 --> 00:16:22,746 Talk to me about brandon's relationship with frank. 396 00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:25,116 He was staying with somebody and he couldn't anymore. 397 00:16:25,184 --> 00:16:26,550 And shocked when my mom said, 398 00:16:26,619 --> 00:16:28,987 "frank's letting brandon stay in his trailer." 399 00:16:29,055 --> 00:16:31,455 I was like, "really?" I'm like, "why would grandpa do that?" 400 00:16:31,457 --> 00:16:33,724 'cause I know I didn't trust brandon. 401 00:16:33,793 --> 00:16:36,761 Everybody knew he would steal from you as quick as he can. 402 00:16:36,829 --> 00:16:41,031 I know that he had screaming matches with my grandpa. 403 00:16:41,101 --> 00:16:42,600 And I think there was an instance 404 00:16:42,668 --> 00:16:44,635 When my grandpa was finally like, "you have to leave. 405 00:16:44,704 --> 00:16:46,871 Like, "you can't stay in the camper." 406 00:16:46,939 --> 00:16:49,240 - Do you remember when that was? - I don't. I really don't. 407 00:16:49,308 --> 00:16:52,576 I know it was within a month of him... 408 00:16:52,645 --> 00:16:54,912 I would say definitely around four weeks 409 00:16:54,981 --> 00:16:58,416 Of him not being here with us anymore. 410 00:16:58,484 --> 00:17:00,684 If frank was trying to kick brandon out, 411 00:17:00,753 --> 00:17:02,820 Then maybe brandon felt like he had nothing to lose 412 00:17:02,888 --> 00:17:04,555 By trying to steal from him one more time. 413 00:17:04,623 --> 00:17:06,390 Smith: Brandon's one of the people-- 414 00:17:06,458 --> 00:17:09,093 I honestly don't think he has ever felt empathy in his life. 415 00:17:09,161 --> 00:17:10,862 He doesn't feel for other people. 416 00:17:23,442 --> 00:17:24,976 That's why. 417 00:17:26,212 --> 00:17:27,011 That's why. 418 00:17:43,463 --> 00:17:45,763 So frank told you that directly, 419 00:17:45,831 --> 00:17:48,566 That he told brandon to leave and that was enough? 420 00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:07,785 - All right. You take care. - You, too. 421 00:18:07,854 --> 00:18:10,922 Frank told her he was scared of brandon, 422 00:18:10,990 --> 00:18:15,326 And in August he kicked him out and told him not to come back. 423 00:18:15,394 --> 00:18:18,962 So there's a possible personal and financial motive here. 424 00:18:19,032 --> 00:18:19,897 Yeah. 425 00:18:20,298 --> 00:18:37,715 Siegler: We've been hearing a lot that brandon scroggin 426 00:18:37,783 --> 00:18:40,350 Could be the person who killed and robbed frank. 427 00:18:40,420 --> 00:18:42,954 But we need to look into these rumors and things 428 00:18:43,022 --> 00:18:44,889 That we're hearing about maybe some local boys 429 00:18:44,957 --> 00:18:47,458 Possibly being involved in stealing from frank. 430 00:18:47,527 --> 00:18:50,994 And we need evidence that they were involved. 431 00:18:50,996 --> 00:18:53,163 Or if not, we need to eliminate them. 432 00:18:53,165 --> 00:18:54,565 - Hello, guys. - Hello. How you doing? 433 00:18:54,633 --> 00:18:55,766 How are you, sir? My name is kelly. 434 00:18:55,835 --> 00:18:57,601 - Hi, kelly. - Nice to meet you. 435 00:18:57,670 --> 00:18:59,370 - Hi, kelly. Andy. - Nice to meet you. 436 00:18:59,438 --> 00:19:00,738 Doc and andrew are some 437 00:19:00,806 --> 00:19:03,241 Of frank's old american legion buddies. 438 00:19:03,243 --> 00:19:05,909 They also happen to be the two witnesses who first told 439 00:19:05,978 --> 00:19:08,579 The police department about maybe these neighborhood boys 440 00:19:08,648 --> 00:19:10,248 Being involved in what happened to frank. 441 00:19:10,316 --> 00:19:13,050 - Are you a prosecutor? - Used to be. Yes, sir. 442 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,285 My little town is called blessing, texas, 443 00:19:15,355 --> 00:19:16,787 And we have a legion there. 444 00:19:16,856 --> 00:19:19,223 And I grew up cleaning the toilets, 445 00:19:19,292 --> 00:19:21,292 Mopping the floor, washing dishes, 446 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:23,193 And calling bingo and bartending there. 447 00:19:23,195 --> 00:19:25,429 And now look what you're doing now. 448 00:19:25,498 --> 00:19:26,931 And when I go home now, 449 00:19:26,999 --> 00:19:29,033 I still go the legion every time we go hang out. 450 00:19:29,101 --> 00:19:30,868 - God bless you. - Well, we're excited 451 00:19:30,937 --> 00:19:33,303 To talk to you all about what happened to frank. 452 00:19:33,305 --> 00:19:35,173 Frank was a nice fellow. 453 00:19:35,241 --> 00:19:37,308 Doc: Yeah. Frank was one hell of a guy. 454 00:19:37,376 --> 00:19:39,209 Andrew: He really had a nice heart. 455 00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:42,245 That guy was just as gentle as a lamb, ma'am. He really was. 456 00:19:42,247 --> 00:19:45,749 He was this type of guy you'd like to be with. 457 00:19:45,818 --> 00:19:47,618 I remember teasing him because he's army. 458 00:19:47,687 --> 00:19:49,587 He said, "you know what that stands for?" 459 00:19:49,655 --> 00:19:53,023 He says, "what?" I said, "ain't ready to be a marine yet." 460 00:19:53,025 --> 00:19:56,226 And he started laughing his ass off. 461 00:19:56,296 --> 00:19:57,795 It shocked me when I heard about it. 462 00:19:57,863 --> 00:20:00,063 I said, no, it can't be my frank, 463 00:20:00,133 --> 00:20:02,366 Because we love him so much. He really was great. 464 00:20:02,434 --> 00:20:04,235 But I'd like to see this thing have closure, 465 00:20:04,303 --> 00:20:08,972 I'll tell you, for the family and for him. 466 00:20:09,042 --> 00:20:13,677 He said that young kid living in the trailer 467 00:20:13,679 --> 00:20:15,713 In front of his house-- he said, "just putting him up." 468 00:20:15,781 --> 00:20:18,349 I said, "oh, that's nice of you to do that." 469 00:20:18,417 --> 00:20:20,951 "well, you gotta help people out." 470 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:22,753 Did frank ever mention that anything 471 00:20:22,822 --> 00:20:25,723 Was going wrong in his relationship with brandon? 472 00:20:25,791 --> 00:20:28,425 Well, he said he was a problem child, 473 00:20:28,494 --> 00:20:30,260 As last I remember him telling us. 474 00:20:30,262 --> 00:20:32,930 And he was hoping that he'd be leaving. 475 00:20:32,998 --> 00:20:35,265 - He told you that, frank did? - Yeah. Yeah. 476 00:20:35,267 --> 00:20:39,102 This is a supplement one page in the report 477 00:20:39,104 --> 00:20:41,271 Where an officer wrote down, 478 00:20:41,273 --> 00:20:44,675 "andrew and ken advised that frank told him 479 00:20:44,744 --> 00:20:48,111 He had been having trouble with some neighborhood kids 480 00:20:48,181 --> 00:20:50,247 That were stealing from him." 481 00:20:50,249 --> 00:20:52,349 I recall that now. Yeah. 482 00:20:52,418 --> 00:20:54,051 Do you remember any more detail 483 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:55,719 About what he said the problems were with him? 484 00:20:55,788 --> 00:20:58,255 No. I don't. 485 00:20:58,323 --> 00:21:00,057 Frank didn't go around flashing money, right? 486 00:21:00,125 --> 00:21:01,391 Oh, hell, no. 487 00:21:01,461 --> 00:21:02,860 The kind of guy that neighborhood kids 488 00:21:02,928 --> 00:21:04,928 Would think obviously has money hidden in his house. 489 00:21:04,930 --> 00:21:08,799 - Anything like that? - I never picked up any of that. 490 00:21:08,801 --> 00:21:11,302 Frank's friends don't seem to really know too much more 491 00:21:11,370 --> 00:21:13,170 More about these kids being involved 492 00:21:13,238 --> 00:21:15,072 Or if there's even anything more to it, 493 00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:17,208 And that's helpful for the case. 494 00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:19,042 It is the kind of thing, though, that a defense lawyer 495 00:21:19,112 --> 00:21:22,045 Wants to play with to try and turn into reasonable doubt 496 00:21:22,115 --> 00:21:24,081 Or to try and throw mud on your case. 497 00:21:24,150 --> 00:21:25,883 So that's why we have to look into it 498 00:21:25,951 --> 00:21:27,284 And do whatever we can 499 00:21:27,353 --> 00:21:29,186 To try and clear it up and clear it out. 500 00:21:29,255 --> 00:21:31,221 All right, guys, well, thank you all for your time today. 501 00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:32,890 - Thank you. - We're trying everything. 502 00:21:40,232 --> 00:21:43,534 Siegler: So, all this credit card transaction stuff. 503 00:21:43,602 --> 00:21:46,770 Pull out your notes so we can make it nice and accurate. 504 00:21:46,772 --> 00:21:49,173 We know that frank's credit card was used shortly 505 00:21:49,241 --> 00:21:53,010 After his murder, so now it's time to take a deep dive 506 00:21:53,078 --> 00:21:56,346 Into the details of all those credit card transactions. 507 00:21:56,348 --> 00:21:59,950 So, we think frank goes to the store 508 00:22:00,019 --> 00:22:04,655 And maybe menards on Friday, October 26. 509 00:22:04,723 --> 00:22:07,425 Right now we're thinking that's also the day he's murdered. 510 00:22:07,427 --> 00:22:08,625 Newman: Based on the grocery receipt 511 00:22:08,627 --> 00:22:10,061 That was found at the crime scene, 512 00:22:10,129 --> 00:22:11,462 Police believe that frank 513 00:22:11,530 --> 00:22:13,731 Was killed shortly after 2 p.M. On the 26th. 514 00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:17,468 What's the next thing you care about on Friday the 26th? 515 00:22:17,536 --> 00:22:20,671 Credit card use at waterfront lounge at 10:34 p.M. 516 00:22:20,739 --> 00:22:23,774 That's the first one? How much does he use this time? 517 00:22:23,843 --> 00:22:25,275 $50 on the nose. 518 00:22:25,344 --> 00:22:27,378 The first charge on frank's stolen credit card 519 00:22:27,446 --> 00:22:30,080 Was at 10:34 p.M. At a local bar. 520 00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:32,116 It was then used eight more times 521 00:22:32,184 --> 00:22:34,518 At two different bars and a gas station. 522 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,787 Okay, so after 2:49 in the morning 523 00:22:36,856 --> 00:22:39,890 On Saturday the 27th, nothing happens 524 00:22:39,959 --> 00:22:41,558 Until the night of Saturday the 27th. 525 00:22:41,627 --> 00:22:44,728 We had a 9:57 at little saver food store 526 00:22:44,797 --> 00:22:47,164 And then 11:15 back at waterfront. 527 00:22:47,232 --> 00:22:49,300 There's a couple more charges on the 27th 528 00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:51,402 At food mart and then back at the bar. 529 00:22:51,470 --> 00:22:53,837 I'm wondering if the plan was to use frank's card 530 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:55,939 As much as possible until the body was discovered. 531 00:22:56,008 --> 00:22:58,942 Okay, so now we're rolling into Monday, October 29th. 532 00:22:59,011 --> 00:23:01,579 Newman: He gets ambitious and hits western union. 533 00:23:01,647 --> 00:23:05,883 And I'm showing the western union's for $227 and $284. 534 00:23:05,951 --> 00:23:08,385 So now he's got $500 cash walking-around money. 535 00:23:08,387 --> 00:23:10,287 Newman: By day four, he's getting bold. 536 00:23:10,355 --> 00:23:14,191 He used a computer to steal hundreds via western union. 537 00:23:14,259 --> 00:23:15,726 And then we have three more gas stations 538 00:23:15,795 --> 00:23:17,761 And six more charges at the bar. 539 00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:21,765 Why is he bothering to do a part for these little bitty amounts 540 00:23:21,767 --> 00:23:22,967 This close together? 541 00:23:23,035 --> 00:23:24,335 He probably looks shifty, 542 00:23:24,403 --> 00:23:25,969 And they won't let him open a tab, 543 00:23:26,038 --> 00:23:27,971 So he's probably having to make, like, a transaction 544 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,174 Every time he goes to the bar. 545 00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:34,778 So we got last activity 1:07 in the morning. 546 00:23:34,780 --> 00:23:36,714 The morning of Halloween, 547 00:23:36,782 --> 00:23:38,582 Frank's body ends up being found. 548 00:23:38,584 --> 00:23:41,318 Newman: Now, remember, he gets picked up at 1 a.M. 549 00:23:41,387 --> 00:23:43,687 At ruthie's on November 1. 550 00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:45,055 He doesn't have it on him at that time. 551 00:23:45,124 --> 00:23:48,025 Brandon was located by police on November 1st, 552 00:23:48,093 --> 00:23:50,427 And he tells them that he'd been shacking up all weekend 553 00:23:50,496 --> 00:23:52,095 With a woman he'd met at a bar. 554 00:23:52,164 --> 00:23:54,131 He was never charged with credit card fraud, 555 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,167 But if we can further prove that he used that stolen card, 556 00:23:57,236 --> 00:23:59,302 That'd be fantastic evidence to use 557 00:23:59,372 --> 00:24:01,071 To prove that he killed frank. 558 00:24:01,073 --> 00:24:02,806 I already did reach out to the bank, 559 00:24:02,808 --> 00:24:05,208 And I was told they only keep records for seven years. 560 00:24:05,277 --> 00:24:07,911 Okay. So that means it's not admissible 561 00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:09,313 Unless somebody can testify to it. 562 00:24:09,381 --> 00:24:11,648 - Who's still in business? - Mm-mmm. 563 00:24:11,717 --> 00:24:14,151 What about those joints? Beer joints? 564 00:24:14,219 --> 00:24:15,886 They're not either. Dang it. 565 00:24:15,955 --> 00:24:18,956 To be admissible in court, every piece of evidence 566 00:24:19,024 --> 00:24:22,960 Has to have a witness to testify to its authenticity. 567 00:24:23,028 --> 00:24:25,195 The easy way to make all this admissible 568 00:24:25,197 --> 00:24:27,097 Would have been back then 569 00:24:27,099 --> 00:24:29,599 To have the paperwork from the credit card transactions. 570 00:24:29,669 --> 00:24:31,735 If you didn't have that, you could try to find 571 00:24:31,804 --> 00:24:34,705 The witnesses from the bars or from the gas stations 572 00:24:34,773 --> 00:24:36,273 Who might still be working there. 573 00:24:36,341 --> 00:24:38,475 But because it's been so long ago, 574 00:24:38,543 --> 00:24:41,078 Finding old records and employees 575 00:24:41,146 --> 00:24:42,980 Is pretty close to impossible. 576 00:24:43,048 --> 00:24:45,816 We may think brandon used frank's cards, 577 00:24:45,884 --> 00:24:47,384 But right now we can't prove it. 578 00:24:47,453 --> 00:24:49,219 How do we get that in? 579 00:24:49,221 --> 00:24:51,388 We prove it by going through the woman he was with. 580 00:24:51,457 --> 00:24:54,925 If you can use her to legitimize the transactions, 581 00:24:54,994 --> 00:24:56,994 If you're the prosecutor and you're in court, 582 00:24:57,062 --> 00:24:59,330 You argue it goes to the weight of the evidence. 583 00:24:59,398 --> 00:25:01,198 We need to find this woman 584 00:25:01,267 --> 00:25:04,001 And hope that she saw brandon use this card. 585 00:25:17,182 --> 00:25:19,249 Which one is this? Is this the one he firebombed her car? 586 00:25:19,318 --> 00:25:20,284 Yeah. 587 00:25:20,352 --> 00:25:21,818 While we were busy trying 588 00:25:21,887 --> 00:25:23,654 To track down brandon scroggin's alibi witness, 589 00:25:23,722 --> 00:25:25,622 There's another girlfriend from his past 590 00:25:25,691 --> 00:25:28,158 That we think is very important that we need to talk to. 591 00:25:28,227 --> 00:25:30,661 How you doing? I'm murray newman. 592 00:25:30,729 --> 00:25:33,263 She dated brandon scroggin a couple of years 593 00:25:33,265 --> 00:25:35,132 After frank halcarz's murder, 594 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,134 And we're wondering what, if anything, 595 00:25:37,202 --> 00:25:39,436 He might have told her about his grandfather's death. 596 00:25:39,505 --> 00:25:44,074 I dated him, and that was really late 2011. 597 00:25:44,143 --> 00:25:47,577 And then by March, he turned psychotic. 598 00:25:47,579 --> 00:25:52,716 He is very aggressive, very dominating, very abusive. 599 00:25:52,784 --> 00:25:55,419 He kept calling me off of a phone, turned off my phone, 600 00:25:55,487 --> 00:25:58,088 Wake up the next day, my car he set on fire. 601 00:25:58,157 --> 00:26:00,691 And then after that, it was, I have to leave my house 602 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:02,926 Because he threatened to set my trailer on fire. 603 00:26:02,995 --> 00:26:04,695 Left my house, went to a shelter, 604 00:26:04,763 --> 00:26:06,497 Lost my kid because of him. 605 00:26:06,565 --> 00:26:08,699 And then I get out the shelter a month later, 606 00:26:08,767 --> 00:26:11,068 And my house burns down to the ground two weeks later. 607 00:26:11,136 --> 00:26:16,373 Did he ever talk to you at all about frank? 608 00:26:16,441 --> 00:26:19,242 No. No. No. And I don't know anything 609 00:26:19,244 --> 00:26:20,810 Other than whenever I first got with him, 610 00:26:20,812 --> 00:26:22,912 He made me google his name as well on the internet, 611 00:26:22,914 --> 00:26:23,981 And he made me read the article 612 00:26:24,049 --> 00:26:25,516 To where he was the main suspect 613 00:26:25,584 --> 00:26:27,250 And was like, "I want you to hear this from me 614 00:26:27,252 --> 00:26:29,320 Before you ever hear it from somebody else." 615 00:26:29,388 --> 00:26:32,589 But he never elaborated on it or said that he did or didn't. 616 00:26:32,658 --> 00:26:34,024 You get what I mean? 617 00:26:34,093 --> 00:26:36,460 He never admitted to me as to anything. 618 00:26:36,528 --> 00:26:40,130 But he's obviously setting stuff on fire to say that-- 619 00:26:40,199 --> 00:26:42,465 That he's killed others and that he would do the same to me. 620 00:26:42,467 --> 00:26:43,834 What exactly did he say? 621 00:26:43,902 --> 00:26:46,737 He would just say that he would use the number five, 622 00:26:46,805 --> 00:26:49,406 Especially, like, every time, say that he killed five people 623 00:26:49,474 --> 00:26:50,607 And that he'll kill me as well. 624 00:26:50,609 --> 00:26:51,842 Wow. 625 00:26:51,910 --> 00:26:54,077 This guy is out of control. 626 00:26:54,146 --> 00:26:57,014 He's clearly, based on what she has told us, 627 00:26:57,082 --> 00:26:59,182 A very, very scary person. 628 00:26:59,251 --> 00:27:00,717 He would talk about going to the city 629 00:27:00,786 --> 00:27:02,619 And literally running up behind somebody 630 00:27:02,688 --> 00:27:04,254 And hitting them in the back of the head 631 00:27:04,323 --> 00:27:05,522 And then reaching in their pockets 632 00:27:05,591 --> 00:27:06,723 And taking whatever he could get, 633 00:27:06,792 --> 00:27:08,926 Whether they were dead or alive. 634 00:27:08,994 --> 00:27:10,761 Newman: He apparently liked to brag. 635 00:27:10,829 --> 00:27:12,495 He claimed multiple murders. 636 00:27:12,497 --> 00:27:14,765 It sounds a lot like what happened to frank. 637 00:27:14,833 --> 00:27:15,899 Thank you so much. 638 00:27:15,968 --> 00:27:17,834 All righty. Thank you, guys. 639 00:27:17,903 --> 00:27:21,071 And I think all these pieces are just fitting together 640 00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:22,973 In a very commonsensical way 641 00:27:23,041 --> 00:27:25,242 That makes a beautiful case for a prosecutor. 642 00:27:25,244 --> 00:27:26,877 Sheesh. Bless her heart. 643 00:27:26,945 --> 00:27:28,145 She's been through a lot of sh-- 644 00:27:28,213 --> 00:27:29,513 With that psychopath, that's for sure. 645 00:27:32,451 --> 00:27:35,618 She was definitely visibly shaken. 646 00:27:35,688 --> 00:27:37,054 Still scared 10 years later. 647 00:27:37,122 --> 00:27:39,622 Oh, yeah. Also something very interesting 648 00:27:39,624 --> 00:27:43,193 Was brandon told her that he would sneak up behind people 649 00:27:43,262 --> 00:27:46,329 And hit them in the head with an object. 650 00:27:46,331 --> 00:27:47,964 And then when they went down, he would take 651 00:27:48,033 --> 00:27:49,466 Whatever they had in their pockets and leave, 652 00:27:49,535 --> 00:27:52,435 Whether they were dead or alive. 653 00:27:52,437 --> 00:27:54,538 That's nice. We never had that before. 654 00:27:54,606 --> 00:27:57,007 - No. - Ooh, that's beautiful. 655 00:27:57,075 --> 00:27:59,343 - She was very clear on that. - Let's call it a day. 656 00:27:59,411 --> 00:28:01,145 A good day. A good day. 657 00:28:03,882 --> 00:28:07,051 [laughter] 658 00:28:12,124 --> 00:28:15,024 - Siegler: Hello. - Can I get you guys a drink? 659 00:28:15,026 --> 00:28:16,427 - Yes, ma'am. - Okay. 660 00:28:16,495 --> 00:28:17,994 I'll take a miller lite. 661 00:28:18,063 --> 00:28:19,496 - A miller lite? - Yes. 662 00:28:19,565 --> 00:28:20,764 Y'all have one of these at home? 663 00:28:20,833 --> 00:28:22,465 - Vfw? - Yeah. 664 00:28:22,535 --> 00:28:23,701 - Siegler: Thank you. - Yeah. 665 00:28:25,270 --> 00:28:27,170 I got so many stories about the legion in blessing. It's crazy. 666 00:28:27,239 --> 00:28:29,472 It's really part of your heritage growing up. 667 00:28:29,541 --> 00:28:32,509 Your grandpa was in world war ii and your dad was in vietnam? 668 00:28:32,578 --> 00:28:34,911 Yeah. I can't help but think of my grandfather 669 00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:37,914 Every time frank is brought up. 670 00:28:37,983 --> 00:28:40,683 What are you thinking about what we're looking like? 671 00:28:40,685 --> 00:28:42,820 I think it's still very key 672 00:28:42,888 --> 00:28:44,221 That we talk to the woman that he was with 673 00:28:44,289 --> 00:28:45,622 And keep our fingers crossed 674 00:28:45,690 --> 00:28:47,790 That her life has been on a better path 675 00:28:47,792 --> 00:28:49,526 Than what brandon's has been 676 00:28:49,594 --> 00:28:51,528 And that she's willing to help us out, 677 00:28:51,596 --> 00:28:53,330 Because I think she's extremely key to this. 678 00:28:53,398 --> 00:28:55,866 - If we can find her. - We can find her. 679 00:28:55,934 --> 00:28:57,801 As a defense attorney, I'm always thinking about 680 00:28:57,869 --> 00:29:00,637 How a case is gonna unfold in the courtroom. 681 00:29:00,705 --> 00:29:03,674 And even if we can find brandon's weekend fling, 682 00:29:03,742 --> 00:29:05,809 If she's a drug addict or criminal, 683 00:29:05,878 --> 00:29:07,444 It opens the door to the defense team 684 00:29:07,513 --> 00:29:09,679 To challenge her credibility and testimony. 685 00:29:09,748 --> 00:29:13,283 If we lose the credit card piece of the case, 686 00:29:13,352 --> 00:29:15,152 What do we have? 687 00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:17,053 - Yeah. - It's a whole different case. 688 00:29:17,122 --> 00:29:19,222 It's pretty much an all-or-nothing proposition. 689 00:29:19,224 --> 00:29:21,558 We really need her to be knowledgeable and credible. 690 00:29:24,062 --> 00:29:26,029 We are. And we're hoping to have some luck. 691 00:29:26,098 --> 00:29:28,098 And we wanna make your community proud, 692 00:29:28,166 --> 00:29:29,767 Lake station police department look good, 693 00:29:29,835 --> 00:29:31,768 'cause they're trying really hard to solve it. 694 00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:33,370 And the victim's a world war ii veteran. 695 00:29:33,438 --> 00:29:34,872 Frank was one of y'all. 696 00:29:34,874 --> 00:29:36,506 Thank you all for what you're doing, too. 697 00:29:36,575 --> 00:29:37,941 - Yes, sir. - Hope you solve it. 698 00:29:47,017 --> 00:29:50,020 Newman: So, we're on our way to see arguably 699 00:29:50,088 --> 00:29:53,623 The most important witness to this case. 700 00:29:53,625 --> 00:29:56,093 If anybody that we've talked to might have new information 701 00:29:56,161 --> 00:29:57,761 That wasn't disclosed at the time, 702 00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:59,263 This would be the first one. 703 00:29:59,331 --> 00:30:02,165 Today is a big day. Perryman and murray 704 00:30:02,234 --> 00:30:04,902 Just got a new lead on hopefully being able to find 705 00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:06,770 Brandon scroggin's alibi witness. 706 00:30:06,838 --> 00:30:09,940 And peek is on his way to a correctional facility 707 00:30:10,008 --> 00:30:11,708 Where brandon is incarcerated 708 00:30:11,777 --> 00:30:14,577 For crimes committed against his ex-girlfriend. 709 00:30:14,646 --> 00:30:18,515 To make this case, we need one of them to somehow confirm 710 00:30:18,583 --> 00:30:20,350 That brandon was the person 711 00:30:20,419 --> 00:30:22,886 Who used frank's stolen credit cards. 712 00:30:22,954 --> 00:30:26,056 Obviously, what we're talking about is there was a homicide. 713 00:30:26,124 --> 00:30:29,259 Right? So when did you meet him, relative to when that happened? 714 00:30:29,328 --> 00:30:32,762 I was at might have been the tap house back then. 715 00:30:32,831 --> 00:30:35,031 I remember this particular person coming in, 716 00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:36,633 Like, in a wet hoodie. 717 00:30:36,635 --> 00:30:39,336 His name was brandon, and he was real generous. 718 00:30:39,404 --> 00:30:41,204 He was buying everybody drinks. 719 00:30:41,206 --> 00:30:44,575 And I ended up bringing him into my home 720 00:30:44,643 --> 00:30:45,976 And sleeping with him. 721 00:30:46,044 --> 00:30:48,411 And he didn't stay here that often. 722 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,713 I don't even remember. It was very, very short. 723 00:30:50,783 --> 00:30:52,482 It was more of like a fling. 724 00:30:52,551 --> 00:30:54,985 And I do remember he had to use my computer 725 00:30:55,053 --> 00:30:59,056 At one point when he was here, and he had a charge card. 726 00:30:59,124 --> 00:31:03,092 The name was the same as the person that was in the paper. 727 00:31:03,094 --> 00:31:05,662 When it come up that this man was murdered, 728 00:31:05,731 --> 00:31:07,831 It flipped me the ---- out 729 00:31:07,899 --> 00:31:10,233 Because he was using his charge card. 730 00:31:10,235 --> 00:31:13,970 The coincidence of that was slim. 731 00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:15,438 This witness was fantastic. 732 00:31:15,507 --> 00:31:18,141 She remembers brandon using frank's card. 733 00:31:18,209 --> 00:31:20,477 She confirmed a lot of things that we already knew. 734 00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:23,780 Most importantly, a computer was used on October 29th 735 00:31:23,849 --> 00:31:26,483 To transfer frank's money via western union. 736 00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:27,885 And this was before his body was found. 737 00:31:27,953 --> 00:31:30,453 I get nauseous thinking about 738 00:31:30,522 --> 00:31:33,690 That I spent time with somebody that could have done that. 739 00:31:35,427 --> 00:31:38,195 That witness is gonna be just a prosecutor's dream. 740 00:31:46,738 --> 00:31:48,971 How you doing, brandon? I'm detective peek 741 00:31:48,973 --> 00:31:51,174 With the lake station police department. 742 00:31:51,243 --> 00:31:55,645 I'm gonna set this up so I can have my notes and things. 743 00:31:55,714 --> 00:31:57,480 I appreciate you speaking with me today. 744 00:31:57,549 --> 00:31:59,349 It's important to me 745 00:31:59,418 --> 00:32:01,284 To have brandon feel comfortable with me 746 00:32:01,286 --> 00:32:02,653 To get him to speak with me. 747 00:32:02,721 --> 00:32:05,155 My plan is to let brandon know that I don't have 748 00:32:05,223 --> 00:32:07,590 Much information from the previous detectives 749 00:32:07,592 --> 00:32:09,593 And that I'm just trying to gather information. 750 00:32:09,661 --> 00:32:11,662 It's always good when you can kind of play 751 00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:14,731 On his side in the beginning, kind of warm him up. 752 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,735 What I'm looking into is your grandfather. 753 00:32:18,804 --> 00:32:22,072 Can you tell me what your relationship was with him? 754 00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:24,474 Yeah? 755 00:32:24,543 --> 00:32:27,344 So you were still living there when he passed away? Okay. 756 00:32:27,412 --> 00:32:30,914 Do you remember hearing about how frank was killed? 757 00:32:38,957 --> 00:32:41,591 So, you've seen it in the newspaper? Okay. 758 00:32:53,472 --> 00:32:55,272 Does it bother you 759 00:32:55,340 --> 00:32:57,474 That we haven't found out who killed frank? 760 00:33:11,156 --> 00:33:12,722 Do you know why that everybody 761 00:33:12,791 --> 00:33:14,091 Was just kind of blaming you for it? 762 00:33:18,296 --> 00:33:20,129 You said you were using his credit cards? 763 00:33:20,199 --> 00:33:22,265 Okay, talk to me about that. 764 00:33:39,218 --> 00:33:42,619 You use the card at waterfront. Does that sound about right? 765 00:33:42,687 --> 00:33:45,154 Did you attempt to get money from western union? 766 00:33:45,224 --> 00:33:47,390 Do you remember this? 767 00:33:47,458 --> 00:33:50,093 Okay. If I showed you this, all these transactions, 768 00:33:50,161 --> 00:33:52,562 Does it look like something that you... 769 00:33:56,434 --> 00:33:57,801 Okay. 770 00:33:57,869 --> 00:33:59,636 And this is from a credit card 771 00:33:59,704 --> 00:34:03,840 That you located inside of frank's house? Okay. 772 00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:06,743 Brandon was very open to speaking with me about things. 773 00:34:06,811 --> 00:34:08,445 He felt that the statute of limitations 774 00:34:08,513 --> 00:34:10,079 On the credit card use was an issue. 775 00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:11,748 So he admitted to me 776 00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:14,083 That he'd stolen the credit cards from frank halcarz, 777 00:34:14,085 --> 00:34:16,119 And he used them at all those locations. 778 00:34:16,187 --> 00:34:18,155 Around that time period, 779 00:34:18,157 --> 00:34:20,857 Were you asked to leave by frank or the police? 780 00:34:24,129 --> 00:34:25,828 Okay. 781 00:34:26,565 --> 00:34:29,366 Did he ask you to leave the house that day? 782 00:34:29,434 --> 00:34:33,436 Were you asking frank for money around that time period? 783 00:34:33,505 --> 00:34:35,138 Because I have a report that said you did. 784 00:34:35,206 --> 00:34:36,806 That's what frank said. 785 00:34:36,808 --> 00:34:40,076 We know you used the card at all these places. Okay? 786 00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:44,080 Frank's wallet was taken from him at some point. 787 00:34:44,148 --> 00:34:45,482 We know that for a fact. 788 00:34:45,550 --> 00:34:47,918 I know his cards were removed from his wallet. 789 00:34:47,986 --> 00:34:50,087 I know you and frank weren't on the best terms. 790 00:34:50,155 --> 00:34:52,055 The person that had a problem with frank was you. 791 00:35:03,368 --> 00:35:06,703 Tell me about your relationship with [bleep]. 792 00:35:06,705 --> 00:35:08,638 What would she have to say about you? 793 00:35:12,677 --> 00:35:16,746 She stated that you said you've killed four people before 794 00:35:16,748 --> 00:35:19,148 And she could be number five. 795 00:35:19,217 --> 00:35:21,684 Did you ever make that statement in a heat a passion to her 796 00:35:21,753 --> 00:35:24,154 Or a reason why she would say that? 797 00:35:27,492 --> 00:35:30,527 Brandon seemed to discredit any witness that I spoke with. 798 00:35:30,595 --> 00:35:32,529 Every time I would bring up one of those witnesses, 799 00:35:32,597 --> 00:35:35,198 He would just paint a bad picture of them, 800 00:35:35,267 --> 00:35:37,333 Which is typical behavior in someone 801 00:35:37,402 --> 00:35:40,270 That is, you know, a suspect in a case. 802 00:35:40,338 --> 00:35:41,938 All right, that's all I got. 803 00:35:42,007 --> 00:35:44,808 Feel pretty great that we can get some closure to this. 804 00:35:47,312 --> 00:35:49,312 Yes, sir. 805 00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:52,282 He admitted to using the credit card, so... 806 00:35:52,350 --> 00:35:54,350 - Really? - Yeah, he stated he used it, 807 00:35:54,419 --> 00:35:58,255 But his claim was that he retrieved the cards 808 00:35:58,257 --> 00:35:59,689 From inside of the residence. 809 00:35:59,758 --> 00:36:01,157 He said that frank just had cards 810 00:36:01,226 --> 00:36:02,993 Lying around inside of the residence. 811 00:36:03,061 --> 00:36:06,462 And I even showed him the printout of what we had, 812 00:36:06,531 --> 00:36:08,665 And he pretty much said, yeah, I used them in all these places. 813 00:36:08,733 --> 00:36:09,966 Oh, my god, that's great. 814 00:36:10,035 --> 00:36:12,168 Newman: We had a one-two punch today. 815 00:36:12,237 --> 00:36:16,138 We talked to an amazing witness. She has this huge realization 816 00:36:16,208 --> 00:36:19,609 That this guy is using this murder victim's credit cards. 817 00:36:19,678 --> 00:36:23,646 In the meantime, you've got brandon scroggin in prison, 818 00:36:23,648 --> 00:36:27,684 And he's confirming all of these things as well. 819 00:36:27,752 --> 00:36:30,319 Truly, that might be the best luck we've ever had 820 00:36:30,321 --> 00:36:32,355 Talking to a suspect. Ooh. 821 00:36:45,136 --> 00:36:47,403 I just think it's so awesome yesterday 822 00:36:47,472 --> 00:36:49,538 That the interview with our witness was unfolding 823 00:36:49,540 --> 00:36:51,508 At the same time as the interview with brandon, 824 00:36:51,576 --> 00:36:52,908 And they were matching. 825 00:36:52,978 --> 00:36:54,811 I'm glad he's so smart, aren't you? 826 00:36:54,879 --> 00:36:56,012 Talking about the credit cards. 827 00:36:56,014 --> 00:36:57,380 Seriously. 828 00:36:57,449 --> 00:37:00,250 You couldn't have a more sympathetic victim. 829 00:37:00,318 --> 00:37:03,152 You couldn't have a less sympathetic suspect. 830 00:37:03,221 --> 00:37:04,854 Siegler: We had a great day yesterday. 831 00:37:04,923 --> 00:37:06,723 So now we're ready to review 832 00:37:06,791 --> 00:37:09,258 And go over everything that we've uncovered 833 00:37:09,328 --> 00:37:12,929 In the 2007 murder of frank halcarz. 834 00:37:12,997 --> 00:37:15,098 You about to be feeling good today, right? 835 00:37:15,166 --> 00:37:16,733 - Oh, yeah. - My daughter called me 836 00:37:16,801 --> 00:37:19,435 And she goes, "how'd it go today on your case, mom?" 837 00:37:19,504 --> 00:37:21,371 I said, "we had a great day." 838 00:37:21,439 --> 00:37:23,373 And I told her each of your stories, 839 00:37:23,441 --> 00:37:26,275 And she's like, "you don't have very many days like that." 840 00:37:26,277 --> 00:37:28,645 And I said, "we sure do not." tell me again 841 00:37:28,713 --> 00:37:30,880 How long y'all worked in gary, indiana, captain. 842 00:37:30,949 --> 00:37:32,148 About 11 years. 843 00:37:32,217 --> 00:37:33,550 - And you? - Ten. 844 00:37:33,618 --> 00:37:37,220 Man, it shows. It shows. Y'all are great. 845 00:37:37,288 --> 00:37:39,889 At this point, we all feel that we have more 846 00:37:39,958 --> 00:37:41,724 Than enough circumstantial evidence 847 00:37:41,726 --> 00:37:43,926 To present to the lake county prosecutor's office 848 00:37:43,928 --> 00:37:45,562 And explaining who was responsible 849 00:37:45,630 --> 00:37:48,598 For killing frank halcarz and who wasn't. 850 00:37:48,666 --> 00:37:51,334 Once upon a time, we put up there looking 851 00:37:51,403 --> 00:37:53,736 Into unknown suspect. 852 00:37:53,738 --> 00:37:55,572 And now that we've talked to everybody, 853 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,940 Is there anything we need to correct or add 854 00:37:58,009 --> 00:38:00,076 With what we learned about this? 855 00:38:00,078 --> 00:38:03,345 No, nothing at all. Once again, especially with the number 856 00:38:03,347 --> 00:38:04,981 Of people that we talked with, 857 00:38:05,049 --> 00:38:07,750 The neighborhood kids thing not coming up from anybody else 858 00:38:07,752 --> 00:38:09,552 Other than his vfw buddies. 859 00:38:09,621 --> 00:38:11,354 You remember any more detail 860 00:38:11,423 --> 00:38:13,089 About what he said the problems were with him? 861 00:38:13,157 --> 00:38:14,991 No. I don't. 862 00:38:15,059 --> 00:38:17,627 Frank didn't go around flashing money, right? 863 00:38:17,696 --> 00:38:19,629 - Oh, hell, no. - I was picturing him 864 00:38:19,697 --> 00:38:22,365 As walking around town like a smart-dressed man. 865 00:38:22,434 --> 00:38:24,034 - Not really. - Not flashy at all. 866 00:38:24,102 --> 00:38:26,435 Not anything that anyone would walk past the house 867 00:38:26,505 --> 00:38:28,370 And think, "I'm gonna go here and rob somebody." 868 00:38:28,372 --> 00:38:30,807 Yeah. Pete, what do you think 869 00:38:30,875 --> 00:38:32,809 About unknown suspects still being up here on the board? 870 00:38:32,877 --> 00:38:35,244 - I don't think it's possible. - Captain, same? 871 00:38:35,313 --> 00:38:37,047 - Same. - Yeah. 872 00:38:37,115 --> 00:38:39,882 All right, we're gonna take unknown suspect off the board. 873 00:38:39,951 --> 00:38:41,951 Siegler: There might have been some rumors that frank 874 00:38:42,020 --> 00:38:44,254 Was having trouble with boys in the neighborhood. 875 00:38:44,322 --> 00:38:46,723 Is it reasonable to make that jump 876 00:38:46,791 --> 00:38:48,458 To they're the ones who killed him? 877 00:38:48,526 --> 00:38:50,827 Not with everything that we've learned. Not at all. 878 00:38:50,895 --> 00:38:52,895 Okay, so let's start talking about brandon. 879 00:38:52,897 --> 00:38:55,331 When you're gonna sell your case to your prosecutor, 880 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,767 What would you say to make them know 881 00:38:57,836 --> 00:39:00,936 Brandon scroggin is responsible for killing frank? 882 00:39:01,006 --> 00:39:03,339 Peek: Brandon has a history of crime. 883 00:39:03,408 --> 00:39:06,376 Everyone we've talked to stated that he had no empathy. 884 00:39:06,444 --> 00:39:08,878 Frank asked him to leave days prior, 885 00:39:08,947 --> 00:39:12,148 So his return would obviously cause conflict with frank. 886 00:39:17,255 --> 00:39:19,422 So frank told you that directly, 887 00:39:19,491 --> 00:39:22,758 That he told brandon to leave and that was enough? 888 00:39:23,394 --> 00:39:25,061 He's sitting there telling his ex-girlfriend, 889 00:39:25,129 --> 00:39:27,764 "I would sneak up on people to rob them, 890 00:39:27,832 --> 00:39:30,232 Hit 'em in the back of the head and turn out their pockets." 891 00:39:30,234 --> 00:39:31,534 That's your m.O. 892 00:39:31,602 --> 00:39:33,236 He would talk about going to the city 893 00:39:33,304 --> 00:39:35,638 And literally running up behind somebody and hitting them 894 00:39:35,707 --> 00:39:38,140 In the back of the head and then reaching in their pockets 895 00:39:38,209 --> 00:39:40,710 And taking whatever he could get whether they were dead or alive. 896 00:39:40,778 --> 00:39:43,146 She thought it was odd because when she got with brandon, 897 00:39:43,214 --> 00:39:45,748 He made her google this case. 898 00:39:45,817 --> 00:39:47,616 Let's say I was accused of something. 899 00:39:47,618 --> 00:39:49,485 I would say, "hey, I just want you to see this 900 00:39:49,554 --> 00:39:51,053 Before you find out later." 901 00:39:51,055 --> 00:39:53,122 And then I would go on to say, "I had nothing 902 00:39:53,191 --> 00:39:54,858 To do with this" or blah, blah, blah. 903 00:39:54,926 --> 00:39:57,193 She said, "brandon didn't say anything." 904 00:39:57,261 --> 00:39:58,661 He just said, "I want you to see this." 905 00:39:58,730 --> 00:40:00,863 Credit card use is major. 906 00:40:00,932 --> 00:40:02,832 We have him at that time that frank was killed, 907 00:40:02,901 --> 00:40:06,369 And he's just having a heyday using credit cards excessively. 908 00:40:06,437 --> 00:40:07,870 I handed him the paper and I said, 909 00:40:07,939 --> 00:40:09,539 "hey, does this look like everything you did?" 910 00:40:09,607 --> 00:40:11,240 And he's like, "oh, yeah." 911 00:40:11,242 --> 00:40:12,975 If I showed you this, all these transactions, 912 00:40:13,044 --> 00:40:16,212 Does it look like something that you... 913 00:40:18,349 --> 00:40:19,982 Okay. 914 00:40:20,051 --> 00:40:22,785 I actually have a suggestion that I highly recommend 915 00:40:22,854 --> 00:40:24,320 And your prosecutor will love you for it, 916 00:40:24,389 --> 00:40:26,556 Is take the piece of paper that you showed him 917 00:40:26,624 --> 00:40:28,791 And tag it into evidence right now. 918 00:40:28,793 --> 00:40:31,027 - Okay. - You're in court. You can say, 919 00:40:31,095 --> 00:40:33,129 "do you have the piece of paper you've showed him? Yep. 920 00:40:33,197 --> 00:40:35,164 Is this it? Yes, it is. How do you know? 921 00:40:35,233 --> 00:40:36,432 Here are my initials." 922 00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:38,634 And, boom, you just proved it up. 923 00:40:38,703 --> 00:40:40,036 And you will have just sidestepped 924 00:40:40,104 --> 00:40:41,670 About three witnesses 925 00:40:41,740 --> 00:40:43,072 That the prosecutor would have to call 926 00:40:43,141 --> 00:40:44,974 To prove it up otherwise. 927 00:40:45,043 --> 00:40:47,509 This case shows that when everybody 928 00:40:47,511 --> 00:40:49,812 Is united in what they think about the suspect, 929 00:40:49,881 --> 00:40:53,115 Personality-wise and criminal history-wise 930 00:40:53,117 --> 00:40:54,551 And all the things he's done 931 00:40:54,553 --> 00:40:57,119 And they cooperate and they're all still around-- 932 00:40:57,121 --> 00:40:59,856 Incredible--look what you can do with a cold case. 933 00:40:59,924 --> 00:41:02,324 His own family is telling everything they can on him 934 00:41:02,326 --> 00:41:03,359 Because they know that he ought to get in trouble 935 00:41:03,427 --> 00:41:04,460 For what he did. 936 00:41:04,529 --> 00:41:06,328 It's really telling 937 00:41:06,398 --> 00:41:09,698 If you look at a picture of frank halcarz at the age of 23. 938 00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:13,636 He is about to go off to war, where he may not come back, 939 00:41:13,704 --> 00:41:16,105 And he's doing it out of a sense of duty. 940 00:41:16,174 --> 00:41:17,774 He is everything 941 00:41:17,842 --> 00:41:20,677 That 23-year-old brandon scroggin is not. 942 00:41:41,866 --> 00:41:43,432 - Good morning. - Good morning. 943 00:41:43,501 --> 00:41:45,401 Perryman and peek had their meeting 944 00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:47,236 With the prosecutor's office, 945 00:41:47,305 --> 00:41:50,406 And now we want to update devin on everything they learned 946 00:41:50,474 --> 00:41:53,009 And all the progress that's been made with the case. 947 00:41:53,077 --> 00:41:54,377 He brought help today. 948 00:41:54,445 --> 00:41:56,979 - Hi. Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you. 949 00:41:57,048 --> 00:41:59,281 It went really well. Everybody that we talked to 950 00:41:59,350 --> 00:42:02,018 We're super excited to know that the case is being worked on, 951 00:42:02,086 --> 00:42:03,653 And I think they're all gonna feel good 952 00:42:03,721 --> 00:42:04,854 When they hear about this. 953 00:42:04,922 --> 00:42:06,555 These guys did a wonderful job. 954 00:42:06,557 --> 00:42:08,825 - Thank you. - He went and talked to brandon. 955 00:42:08,893 --> 00:42:10,893 We spoke for about an hour and a half. 956 00:42:10,895 --> 00:42:12,662 He didn't say a lot to help himself. 957 00:42:12,730 --> 00:42:14,396 - You know what I mean? - Mm-hmm. 958 00:42:14,466 --> 00:42:16,533 We spoke with our prosecutors. We submitted everything, 959 00:42:16,601 --> 00:42:18,367 All the work that we did throughout the week, 960 00:42:18,369 --> 00:42:21,671 Presenting charges for brandon. 961 00:42:21,739 --> 00:42:25,107 We got a few more small details we got to button up. 962 00:42:25,176 --> 00:42:29,145 Our prosecutor that we spoke with feels pretty confident. 963 00:42:29,213 --> 00:42:31,714 I don't wanna make any promises 'cause other things can happen, 964 00:42:31,716 --> 00:42:35,117 But it was a very positive meeting. 965 00:42:35,186 --> 00:42:38,020 I'm extremely grateful for them for this, 966 00:42:38,089 --> 00:42:39,355 For everything they've done. 967 00:42:39,424 --> 00:42:41,691 Knowing that we'll have some closure 968 00:42:41,759 --> 00:42:43,860 And justice for my grandpa, that's what matters. 969 00:42:47,832 --> 00:42:51,634 I'm at peace, happy and relieved. 970 00:42:51,703 --> 00:42:54,370 How do you think that's gonna affect 971 00:42:54,439 --> 00:42:55,705 Your family, your mom and everybody? 972 00:42:55,773 --> 00:42:57,507 I'm not really sure. 973 00:42:57,575 --> 00:43:00,042 I think justice is more important. 974 00:43:00,111 --> 00:43:02,011 For me. I can't speak for them. 975 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,313 I'm sure some are gonna be upset. 976 00:43:04,315 --> 00:43:06,215 This is a great case. 977 00:43:06,217 --> 00:43:08,718 We're all excited to see where it goes from here, 978 00:43:08,786 --> 00:43:12,288 Because frank halcarz was a great man. 979 00:43:12,356 --> 00:43:15,891 He served our country. He led a long, full life. 980 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,127 It was taken from him still too short. 981 00:43:18,196 --> 00:43:19,928 Give me a hug. 982 00:43:19,930 --> 00:43:22,932 And up until now, all his family could think about is, 983 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,035 Why does someone get away with murdering a man like that? 984 00:43:26,104 --> 00:43:28,470 But hopefully today, with all these answers... 985 00:43:28,472 --> 00:43:30,139 - It was nice meeting you. - You, too. 986 00:43:30,141 --> 00:43:32,342 ...They can finally switch that focus 987 00:43:32,410 --> 00:43:35,645 And appreciate that now they can finally get justice.