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[vocalizing]

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<i> ♪ in the height of madness ♪</i>

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<i> ♪ do we lose everything? ♪</i>

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Kelly siegler:
Lesa, I'm glad you're here.

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Well, I'm honored
that you guys brought me in.

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We worked four cases with y'all,

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And you and I worked two
side by side.

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You can talk to everybody.

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Everybody
I've seen you interview.

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- And you're really good.
- Oh, thank you.

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You're kind of spoiled.
All of yours got cleared.

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- Every case ended in an arrest.
- Yes, it did.

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We've had success
working with lisa hodgkins

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On multiple cases
in fort myers, florida,

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And I'm excited to have
her expert interrogation skills

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As we investigate
the tragic double murder

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Of susanna flores brown

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And her eight-year-old daughter,
francesca.

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Have you ever had one before

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Where it's
a mother-daughter murder?

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No. It takes
a special kind of evil

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To murder
an eight-year-old girl.

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Siegler: Susanna
was a very vivacious,

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Outgoing young mother

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Who worked
at a local factory in abilene

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And lived with her common-law
husband, billye brown,

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As well as the light
of her life,

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Her eight-year-old daughter,
francesca.

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Cha cha, as she was known,
was a curious,

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Spunky little girl that
everybody in the family adored.

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And their shocking deaths
rocked the entire community.

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On March 8, 1982, susanna
attended a tupperware party

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While francesca was playing
over at a neighbor's house.

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They returned home
about 8:30 p.M.

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At around 3:00 in the morning,
billye arrived home

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To find his common-law wife and
his eight-year-old stepdaughter

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Brutally murdered
and strangled to death.

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Hodgkins: I don't know
that a lot of people realize

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How long strangulation
actually takes.

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And if it's
a face-to-face strangulation,

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The killer's looking
in the victim's eyes

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And the victim's looking
in the killer's eyes

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The entire time they're taking
their life from them.

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As a mom, I can't even imagine

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The horror that susanna
had to have felt

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During those last minutes
of her life,

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Knowing that her baby
was defenseless in the next room

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And there was nothing
she could do to protect her.

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It breaks your heart.
We need to get them justice.

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How do you not wanna work a case

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Where an
eight-year-old girl's murdered?

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Those are the ones
we wanna work the best

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And the first and the hardest.

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Not to put any pressure
on you or anything,

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But welcome to texas.

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- Good morning.
- Good morning. How you doing?

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- Good. I'm kelly.
- I'm shawn.

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- Nice to meet you.
- I'm jeff.

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Hi, jeff. Nice to meet you.

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Siegler: I love this case.
She does, too.

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- Montgomery: Yeah, it's good.
- So, day one.

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This is kind of different
for us to start off--

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By looking at the crime scene.

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What are you thinking?
Why do you wanna do this first?

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When you go in there
and you see the crime scene,

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How small it is,
look at where we believe

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The bodies were laying,
where items were at,

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I think it helps put everything
in perspective.

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What'd you all do,
build like a mock-up of it?

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Yeah, we had some folks
help us out and build a mock-up,

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Kind of give
a representation of the house.

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Was it hard?

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I don't know.
I didn't do it, so...

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With a case like this,

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The first thing
that we wanna try and figure out

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Is the relationship between
the suspect and the victims.

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So come on in.

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With the brutality of this case,

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With the weapon involved,
with the way it happened,

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We're gonna try
and figure out,

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Is this someone that she knew,

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Or is this an unknown killer?

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Okay, so, what happened
at first, jeff?

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All this occurred
on March 9th of 1982.

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Billye brown, susanna brown's
common-law husband,

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Left work at 3 a.M.,
getting home at roughly 3:23-25.

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Walks into the residence

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And discovers susanna
and francesca deceased.

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In his statement,
he says he notices

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The back door open,
and ultimately he calls 911.

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When questioned, billye said
that he was at work that night

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When the murders occurred.

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But in any
homicide investigation,

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The significant other
is always the first suspect.

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And in this case,
the police department

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Considered him
to be the prime suspect.

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First responders came in,

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And they discovered
susanna and francesca.

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Both had been strangled
with ligature devices.

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With susanna, a lamp cord
still attached to the lamp.

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And then francesca's a phone
cord from the living room.

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Susanna is found
laying on her back.

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And then she has
three lacerations to her head.

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Then you have a lamp
that is on the floor,

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And the lamp power cord has been
wrapped around her neck.

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Hodgkins: The ligatures used
to kill susanna and francesca

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Were both items
that were already in the house,

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Which suggests that this
was a crime of opportunity

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And there was no intent
on the killer to commit murder.

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Strangulation
is a very expressive

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And personal means of homicide,

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Which leans more towards
the suspect knowing the victim.

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Maybe all this started
with an argument.

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And maybe he goes to the lamp,
decides to grab it and whack.

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- And how many hits?
- Three.

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Well, there's several edges
you could have made.

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One, two, three linear marks
with one hit.

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Okay, so let me be susanna.
So, she's laying down.

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Something that's noticed.
She doesn't have any of this.

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You know what?
Now put your knees on my arms

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To hold them down
while you're strangling me.

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Just like that.
I mean, I can't do anything.

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Wrap it around her twice.
Susan's dead.

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Susanna's strangulation suggests
a rageful crime of passion.

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So I can only imagine the fear
that francesca must have felt,

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Possibly witnessing
her mom die at the hands

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Of someone she knew and trusted,
afraid she'd be next.

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- Lay down. Be francesca.
- Okay.

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Hodgkins:
The killer kills susanna.

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Cha cha either came in,
saw me, screamed, cried.

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Now I gotta take care of her.

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I'm gonna come in here.
I'm gonna grab this phone cord.

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- Cut, cut.
- Siegler: It's cut twice.

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Hodgkins: It wasn't ripped
out of the phone

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And it wasn't ripped
out of the wall. It's cut twice.

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She's under the bed.
Grab her by her feet.

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I'm gonna pull her out
from under the bed.

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I'm gonna take the cord.
I'm gonna wrap this around,

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And then I'm just
gonna hold this here.

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She's gonna die right here.

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I don't think
that anybody thinks

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That there's a motive to kill
an eight-year-old little baby.

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So she was never the target.

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Whether they knew
she was gonna be a witness

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When this all started

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Or she cried out
and made herself known

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And became a witness later,

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Whoever did this
was not gonna leave her alive,

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And that's why she's a victim.

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Burglars wanna come in
and they wanna take your stuff,

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Whatever it is they can grab
and carry and get out.

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Burglars don't wanna hit a house
where there's people at home.

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There was no drawers open,

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Like people were rummaging
through things.

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Siegler: Any signs
of forced entry?

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According to the officers

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And everybody
that was on the scene, no.

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In mr. Brown's statement,

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He referenced seeing
the window open,

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But I think
the window is a non-starter

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'cause the screen's
on the window.

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If somebody broke in the house

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And used the window
as their entry and exit point,

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They're not gonna take
the screen off

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And then put the screen back on.

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It's just not logical.

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Hodgkins:
There was nothing stolen.

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While the window
and back door were open,

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There were no signs
of forced entry.

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Is it possible
that billye attempted

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To stage the scene
to cover up his tracks?

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We don't know. But at this
point, none of us believe

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That these murders
were committed by a stranger.

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It doesn't mean it was billye,

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But it does suggest
it was someone she knew.

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Well, this was very helpful.

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I kind of like doing
this part first.

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- Hodgkins: Yeah, absolutely.
- All right. Awesome.

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<i> ♪ drive me home ♪</i>

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<i> ♪ it's getting late ♪</i>

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<i> ♪ if I stay here any longer ♪</i>

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<i> ♪ things will never</i>
<i> be the same ♪</i>

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Susanna's sisters,
linda and rita,

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Still live here in town?

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Yes, ma'am. They are ecstatic

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That somebody's looking
at the case.

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Siegler: Good.
They gotta deal with losing

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Their 30-year-old sister
and their eight-year-old niece.

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They say time heals all wounds,
but not all wounds.

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No.

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The abilene police department
has a new cold-case unit

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Formed December of last year.

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This has been a passion I've
kind of found working cold cases

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That really need attention.

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Linda: Hi.

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Good to see you again.

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Cowan: When you find
a cold case that involves

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A mother and daughter,
it was a tragedy,

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And I wanted to find a resolve.

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She was our big sister
and a wonderful mother.

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She was pragmatic.

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She looked after us and made
sure that we had what we need,

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Be it material-wise or just,
you know, moral support.

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How often did y'all get
to see francesca?

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As often as possible.
She was our baby.

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What was their mother-daughter
relationship like?

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You know, susan had her in all
different kinds of things.

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The brownie thing.
The ballerina thing.

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She was just sharp as a whip.

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Susan was
a very strong young woman.

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Everybody loved her.
She had lots of friends.

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And then cha cha came along.
Oh, my goodness.

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She was just
a little bundle of joy

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From the day
she came into our lives.

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Just very curious
about everything, everyone.

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She was an angel.

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Talk about bill and susan.
When did they meet?

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We used to go to the nightclub,
go dancing.

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- And she met him.
- Siegler: At the clubs.

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- Linda: Mm-hmm.
- Siegler: Okay.

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Linda: He was a cool guy.

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Dressed well. Spoke well.

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- Kind of smooth, charming.
- Yes.

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I didn't like him because I just
knew he had a bad reputation.

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- For?
- Being a womanizer.

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We were at a bar, and I saw him
shoving her and pushing her.

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She said, "I'm okay."
and she left with him.

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For almost a year,

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I didn't speak to my sister
towards the end

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Because I couldn't stand him.

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We had horrible fights. And...

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She told me I didn't know
what I was talking about.

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"he was a good guy."

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And that was
the last time we spoke.

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Do you remember the night
how you found out?

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- A phone call.
- Rita: From bill.

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From bill.

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Rita: It was 3:00
in the morning,

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And he said,
"rita, I got home from work

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And the girls are dead.

241
00:10:29,295 --> 00:10:30,528
The girls are dead."

242
00:10:30,597 --> 00:10:32,130
And I hung up the phone.

243
00:10:32,198 --> 00:10:34,465
I woke up linda.
We couldn't believe it.

244
00:10:34,467 --> 00:10:37,468
We drove there,
and there were police cars.

245
00:10:37,470 --> 00:10:39,337
And we just sat in the car
and we watched,

246
00:10:39,405 --> 00:10:41,505
But we just still weren't--

247
00:10:41,575 --> 00:10:43,274
Wasn't registering.

248
00:10:43,343 --> 00:10:46,310
Siegler: Meeting the sisters
of susanna

249
00:10:46,379 --> 00:10:48,546
And having a sister myself,

250
00:10:48,615 --> 00:10:51,382
The thought of having
to go for 41 years

251
00:10:51,451 --> 00:10:53,417
Wondering who killed my sister,

252
00:10:53,486 --> 00:10:55,186
I don't even know
how you live with that.

253
00:10:55,255 --> 00:10:59,090
After murdering my sister,
somebody went in,

254
00:10:59,159 --> 00:11:02,860
Deliberately drugged my niece,
a small, little child,

255
00:11:02,929 --> 00:11:06,531
Out from the bed,
and then murdered her.

256
00:11:06,599 --> 00:11:08,700
I just cannot fathom that.

257
00:11:08,768 --> 00:11:11,169
We gotta bring them justice.

258
00:11:11,237 --> 00:11:13,872
- Thank you so much.
- See you next week.

259
00:11:14,439 --> 00:11:29,320
Okay. 41 year-old-case, 1982.
We just need

260
00:11:29,389 --> 00:11:31,322
To put our brains together
and have some good luck.

261
00:11:31,391 --> 00:11:34,292
We're investigating
the tragic double homicide

262
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,095
Of 30-year-old mother,
susanna flores brown,

263
00:11:37,163 --> 00:11:40,264
And her baby, eight-year-old
francesca martinez.

264
00:11:40,333 --> 00:11:41,899
This is one of francesca.

265
00:11:41,968 --> 00:11:43,701
Right before
she turns eight maybe?

266
00:11:43,770 --> 00:11:47,171
After examining
a mock crime scene,

267
00:11:47,173 --> 00:11:49,173
We've determined that it's
more likely this murder

268
00:11:49,242 --> 00:11:52,176
Was committed
by someone that susanna knew

269
00:11:52,178 --> 00:11:54,278
And less likely
that it was a stranger.

270
00:11:54,347 --> 00:11:57,849
Francesca's biological father
had an alibi

271
00:11:57,917 --> 00:12:00,218
And was ruled out
by the police department.

272
00:12:00,286 --> 00:12:03,922
So we need to consider
any leads into unknown suspects

273
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:07,158
In susanna's world,
including a tip that a neighbor

274
00:12:07,227 --> 00:12:09,861
Possibly saw someone
near her house.

275
00:12:09,929 --> 00:12:12,230
The next-door neighbor
gave statement

276
00:12:12,298 --> 00:12:16,734
That she observes two men
in a dark-colored vehicle

277
00:12:16,802 --> 00:12:19,037
Parked in front
of susanna's house

278
00:12:19,105 --> 00:12:21,839
Between 11:30 and 11:45.

279
00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:24,642
But she only identified
the vehicle, not a person.

280
00:12:24,711 --> 00:12:26,544
So she was hypnotized.

281
00:12:26,613 --> 00:12:28,880
After this witness
gave her statement,

282
00:12:28,948 --> 00:12:32,817
She was hypnotized to see if she
could remember anything else.

283
00:12:32,886 --> 00:12:34,485
Cowan: But she could not
identify the person.

284
00:12:34,554 --> 00:12:36,387
- Right.
- So there's a lot of reasons

285
00:12:36,456 --> 00:12:38,322
Why she could be wrong.

286
00:12:38,391 --> 00:12:39,223
Correct.

287
00:12:39,292 --> 00:12:40,858
So, what does that mean?

288
00:12:40,927 --> 00:12:43,027
Were these men really,
in fact, involved?

289
00:12:43,096 --> 00:12:45,830
Is there someone else
who committed this crime?

290
00:12:45,899 --> 00:12:48,633
Or are these just hurdles
in building a case

291
00:12:48,701 --> 00:12:51,503
Against our primary suspect,
billye brown?

292
00:12:51,571 --> 00:12:56,341
Okay, so, his relationship
to susanna,

293
00:12:56,409 --> 00:12:58,442
We wanna say common-law husband?

294
00:12:58,444 --> 00:13:00,545
Yes, ma'am.
She had taken his name,

295
00:13:00,613 --> 00:13:02,780
But they were never married.

296
00:13:02,849 --> 00:13:03,981
And how would you describe

297
00:13:04,050 --> 00:13:06,016
Their relationship
up to this point?

298
00:13:06,018 --> 00:13:07,318
- Montgomery: Definitely rocky.
- Cowan: Yeah.

299
00:13:07,386 --> 00:13:09,987
- He's messing around on her.
- He is, yes.

300
00:13:10,056 --> 00:13:13,824
November of '81
is when billye says susan

301
00:13:13,894 --> 00:13:15,426
Found out
about the relationship.

302
00:13:15,495 --> 00:13:17,161
She kicked him out.
They had a big fight.

303
00:13:17,230 --> 00:13:18,429
She put his clothes
in the truck.

304
00:13:18,498 --> 00:13:20,765
Officers had
to come to the scene

305
00:13:20,833 --> 00:13:22,567
Where he's trying
to get in the house,

306
00:13:22,635 --> 00:13:24,836
And they actually warn him of
criminal trespass at that time,

307
00:13:24,904 --> 00:13:26,938
But obviously
she let him back in.

308
00:13:27,006 --> 00:13:29,741
Okay, so let's talk
about his alibi.

309
00:13:29,809 --> 00:13:31,775
We got to put that up here, too.

310
00:13:31,845 --> 00:13:33,611
Cowan: Nucorp was
the place he worked at.

311
00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,779
His alibi was
that he left the house

312
00:13:35,781 --> 00:13:38,149
Around 4:30,
clocked in at 5:00,

313
00:13:38,218 --> 00:13:40,284
Leaves work
at 3:00 in the morning.

314
00:13:40,353 --> 00:13:42,120
He gets home at 3:20.

315
00:13:42,188 --> 00:13:44,121
So he's saying he's at work.
That's his alibi.

316
00:13:44,123 --> 00:13:45,856
Basically.

317
00:13:45,858 --> 00:13:47,859
All the nucorp people
are huge.

318
00:13:47,927 --> 00:13:49,293
Hodgkins: Right.

319
00:13:49,362 --> 00:13:51,595
We know the murder
occurred after 8:30 p.M.

320
00:13:51,665 --> 00:13:53,430
When susanna left
her neighbor's house

321
00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:54,899
And before billy
returned home from work

322
00:13:54,901 --> 00:13:57,335
And called 911 at 3:25 a.M.

323
00:13:57,403 --> 00:13:58,769
According to his time card,

324
00:13:58,838 --> 00:14:01,205
Billy worked for nucorp,
a manufacturing company,

325
00:14:01,274 --> 00:14:03,107
From 5:00 p.M. To 3:00 a.M.,

326
00:14:03,176 --> 00:14:05,843
Which is about an 18-minute
drive from the crime scene.

327
00:14:05,912 --> 00:14:07,978
The question is, could he have
slipped away from work,

328
00:14:07,980 --> 00:14:10,080
Committed the murders,
returned to work,

329
00:14:10,082 --> 00:14:12,617
And clocked out at 3:00
without anyone noticing?

330
00:14:12,685 --> 00:14:15,152
Is there anything else
that we didn't talk about?

331
00:14:15,221 --> 00:14:16,921
The seminal fluid
found in her mouth.

332
00:14:16,989 --> 00:14:19,190
It belongs to billye.

333
00:14:19,259 --> 00:14:20,959
He has the best defense
to it, though.

334
00:14:20,961 --> 00:14:22,861
"we were common-law married.

335
00:14:22,929 --> 00:14:24,963
Of course
we had sexual intercourse."

336
00:14:24,965 --> 00:14:26,597
Siegler: During
the initial investigation,

337
00:14:26,599 --> 00:14:28,399
Swabs were collected

338
00:14:28,401 --> 00:14:32,069
And seminal fluid was obtained
from susanna's mouth,

339
00:14:32,138 --> 00:14:34,505
Though a profile
could not be determined.

340
00:14:34,574 --> 00:14:38,376
Dna technology has
greatly improved since then.

341
00:14:38,444 --> 00:14:41,612
And recent testing
by texas dps lab

342
00:14:41,681 --> 00:14:44,482
Identified billye brown's dna.

343
00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:45,616
Thank you for coming in.

344
00:14:45,685 --> 00:14:47,484
She has a seminar
she's got to go to,

345
00:14:47,554 --> 00:14:49,754
So she came in to do this
for us before she has to leave.

346
00:14:49,822 --> 00:14:51,222
Because there's a relationship

347
00:14:51,291 --> 00:14:53,591
Between billye brown
and susanna,

348
00:14:53,659 --> 00:14:56,027
The fact that his semen
is in her mouth

349
00:14:56,095 --> 00:14:59,096
Might not be important, but
we're bringing dr. Pinneri in

350
00:14:59,165 --> 00:15:01,765
To discuss the window of time

351
00:15:01,767 --> 00:15:04,836
That seminal fluid would
still be able to be found

352
00:15:04,904 --> 00:15:06,838
So that we can better understand

353
00:15:06,906 --> 00:15:09,973
If the presence
of billy's semen

354
00:15:09,975 --> 00:15:12,043
Is connected to her murder.

355
00:15:12,111 --> 00:15:13,711
I had the autopsy report.

356
00:15:13,780 --> 00:15:16,547
It doesn't describe
any external genitalia injuries

357
00:15:16,616 --> 00:15:18,082
And no vaginal trauma.

358
00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:19,917
But they did collect oral swabs,

359
00:15:19,986 --> 00:15:23,154
And they were positive
for acid phosphatase,

360
00:15:23,222 --> 00:15:26,690
Which is a compound
that's present in semen,

361
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,526
Which they did see.

362
00:15:28,594 --> 00:15:32,496
So there could be some sort of
either forced or consensual sex?

363
00:15:32,498 --> 00:15:35,799
I can't say. There's
no injuries that I can see.

364
00:15:35,801 --> 00:15:40,037
Can you talk about timing
and what you can glean

365
00:15:40,106 --> 00:15:43,807
From the fact that dna
is found in her oral swab?

366
00:15:43,877 --> 00:15:46,444
Yeah, that's hard to say how
long semen will stay liable

367
00:15:46,512 --> 00:15:48,079
In someone's mouth.

368
00:15:48,081 --> 00:15:51,015
But it would somewhat
indicate to me

369
00:15:51,084 --> 00:15:55,085
That there was no mouthwashing
or drinking

370
00:15:55,155 --> 00:15:57,154
Or anything after the act.

371
00:15:57,223 --> 00:16:01,325
Because every time you swallow
something, you're diluting it.

372
00:16:01,394 --> 00:16:04,095
It would kind of suggests
kind of a close proximity.

373
00:16:04,163 --> 00:16:06,964
The presence
of his samples suggests

374
00:16:06,966 --> 00:16:09,900
That they engaged
in oral sex that day,

375
00:16:09,969 --> 00:16:13,237
But there's no mention of that
in his initial statement.

376
00:16:13,306 --> 00:16:15,939
Maybe nobody asked
that specific, hard question

377
00:16:16,009 --> 00:16:17,508
Of billye brown.

378
00:16:17,577 --> 00:16:19,577
Or did billye brown
leave that out for a reason?

379
00:16:23,083 --> 00:16:24,948
Hodgkins:
This is probably a case

380
00:16:25,018 --> 00:16:27,851
That's kind of lingered out
in abilene for a while.

381
00:16:27,853 --> 00:16:29,988
An unsolved murder
of an eight-year-old.

382
00:16:30,056 --> 00:16:32,123
Cowan: That sticks
in people's heads.

383
00:16:32,191 --> 00:16:33,857
Hodgkins: We're gonna start
talking to witnesses,

384
00:16:33,927 --> 00:16:36,226
And we think it's important
to start with katherine spivey,

385
00:16:36,296 --> 00:16:38,996
The last person to see susanna
and francesca alive.

386
00:16:39,065 --> 00:16:41,799
Francesca was playing
at katherine spivey's house

387
00:16:41,867 --> 00:16:43,668
While susanna attended
a tupperware party.

388
00:16:43,736 --> 00:16:45,803
Susanna picked francesca up
from katherine's house

389
00:16:45,872 --> 00:16:48,005
Around 8:30 p.M.
We wanna see if katherine

390
00:16:48,074 --> 00:16:50,240
Remembers anything unusual
about susanna's behavior.

391
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:53,877
The night that happened,
her little girl--

392
00:16:53,947 --> 00:16:56,213
We call her cha cha--
was at our house.

393
00:16:56,282 --> 00:16:58,282
I think she was eight years old
at that time.

394
00:16:58,350 --> 00:16:59,917
- Got you.
- Same age as our daughter.

395
00:16:59,986 --> 00:17:01,919
Her mom was at the door
to pick her up,

396
00:17:01,987 --> 00:17:03,521
And she wanted
to spend the night.

397
00:17:03,589 --> 00:17:06,724
And so I said, "not tonight."
make me cry.

398
00:17:06,793 --> 00:17:08,158
- Right.
- "not tonight,

399
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,693
Because it's a school night,

400
00:17:09,695 --> 00:17:11,395
So you can come back
and play tomorrow."

401
00:17:11,463 --> 00:17:14,532
Do you remember how susan was?

402
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,534
She was a matter of fact
with cha cha

403
00:17:16,602 --> 00:17:18,770
That "we need to go now."

404
00:17:18,838 --> 00:17:23,674
Had she ever spoken to you
about any troubles?

405
00:17:23,676 --> 00:17:26,911
She was really, really, really

406
00:17:26,979 --> 00:17:29,347
Extremely scared
of her boyfriend.

407
00:17:29,415 --> 00:17:31,682
I guess he was
just possessive of her.

408
00:17:31,751 --> 00:17:33,851
He didn't want her
having any relationships

409
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:37,388
Outside them,
any friends or whatever.

410
00:17:37,456 --> 00:17:41,159
And one time, I was picking up
pecans in her backyard,

411
00:17:41,161 --> 00:17:44,295
And he came home
I guess unexpectedly.

412
00:17:44,363 --> 00:17:47,931
She rushed me out the gate.
I have to go now.

413
00:17:48,001 --> 00:17:50,935
Did she say anything like, "oh,
gosh, you got to go because..."

414
00:17:51,003 --> 00:17:52,770
- "he's home."
- "he's home." okay.

415
00:17:56,442 --> 00:17:58,876
[line ringing]

416
00:18:01,747 --> 00:18:03,681
Hodgkins: Susanna's brother,
richard flores, was at the scene

417
00:18:03,749 --> 00:18:05,583
The night his sister
and niece were killed.

418
00:18:05,651 --> 00:18:07,185
We're hoping he has some insight

419
00:18:07,187 --> 00:18:08,752
Into how billye brown
was acting.

420
00:18:08,821 --> 00:18:11,422
So, what did you know
about susie and bill?

421
00:18:35,615 --> 00:18:37,381
Did you find
that odd at the time?

422
00:18:41,821 --> 00:18:44,755
What did she tell you directly
about bill?

423
00:18:52,898 --> 00:18:54,565
Do you remember
what she said it was for?

424
00:18:57,136 --> 00:18:57,969
Okay.

425
00:19:06,011 --> 00:19:07,711
This is the first we've heard

426
00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:09,613
That susanna wanted to end her
relationship with billye brown

427
00:19:09,682 --> 00:19:11,782
And was, in fact, fearful.

428
00:19:11,851 --> 00:19:14,885
But was she fearful of billye's
reaction to her moving on,

429
00:19:14,887 --> 00:19:17,588
Or was there already a new man
in her life capable of murder?

430
00:19:38,376 --> 00:19:42,113
She wasn't excited
about being susanna brown.

431
00:19:47,753 --> 00:19:49,620
Yeah. Okay.

432
00:19:49,689 --> 00:19:51,422
Siegler: Leading up
to her murder,

433
00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:53,390
We've learned
that susanna was scared

434
00:19:53,459 --> 00:19:55,326
And she was looking
to get a gun.

435
00:19:55,394 --> 00:19:59,096
If billye brown was the cause,
we need to learn why.

436
00:19:59,165 --> 00:20:00,297
We're gonna speak to everybody

437
00:20:00,366 --> 00:20:02,432
That we can find
in susanna's world

438
00:20:02,434 --> 00:20:05,536
To see if she opened up
about her common-law marriage

439
00:20:05,605 --> 00:20:07,571
Or if maybe
there was anybody else

440
00:20:07,573 --> 00:20:10,240
She was having issues with
at the time.

441
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:12,309
Did you ever
have conversations with her

442
00:20:12,378 --> 00:20:15,313
About her life and her future
in bill or anything like that?

443
00:20:39,205 --> 00:20:40,705
All right, that's good.

444
00:20:55,354 --> 00:20:56,887
Be more descriptive.
What do you mean?

445
00:21:17,676 --> 00:21:19,043
Okay.

446
00:21:19,045 --> 00:21:21,145
Siegler: The physical evidence
tells us

447
00:21:21,213 --> 00:21:24,081
That billye and susanna
engaged in oral sex

448
00:21:24,150 --> 00:21:26,284
In the hours before her murder.

449
00:21:26,352 --> 00:21:29,486
Maybe their
physical incompatibility

450
00:21:29,555 --> 00:21:31,922
Played a role
in what happened that night.

451
00:21:31,991 --> 00:21:35,526
You've been super, super
helpful. Thank you so much.

452
00:21:35,594 --> 00:21:37,828
Siegler: Billye brown
told the police back then

453
00:21:37,896 --> 00:21:41,098
That he was trying to call
susanna for quite a while

454
00:21:41,166 --> 00:21:43,634
Before he was finally able
to get a hold of her.

455
00:21:43,702 --> 00:21:47,138
Is it possible that their
ongoing sexual problems

456
00:21:47,206 --> 00:21:48,773
Emasculated him?

457
00:21:48,841 --> 00:21:51,275
And when susanna
didn't answer the phone,

458
00:21:51,344 --> 00:21:56,047
His feelings of insecurity,
jealousy, and control took over,

459
00:21:56,115 --> 00:21:59,083
Sparking an argument
that escalated into murder.

460
00:21:59,151 --> 00:22:01,819
That's great. That's great. Ooh.

461
00:22:10,263 --> 00:22:13,430
All right, so we are going
to talk to sara soto,

462
00:22:13,499 --> 00:22:18,502
Who is gonna be, I believe,
a cousin to susanna.

463
00:22:18,571 --> 00:22:19,937
Hodgkins: While we've determined

464
00:22:20,005 --> 00:22:21,372
A possible motive
for billye brown,

465
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,974
Since his time card
indicated that he was at work,

466
00:22:24,043 --> 00:22:25,042
We're still unsure
if he had the opportunity

467
00:22:25,111 --> 00:22:26,177
To commit these murders.

468
00:22:26,245 --> 00:22:28,411
- Hi.
- Sara?

469
00:22:28,413 --> 00:22:30,080
Would you be able
to visit with us?

470
00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:32,315
So we need to continue
to look into the possibility

471
00:22:32,317 --> 00:22:34,217
That there was another man
in susanna's life

472
00:22:34,287 --> 00:22:35,886
That concerned her.

473
00:22:35,955 --> 00:22:37,755
What's going on
with this, y'all?

474
00:22:37,823 --> 00:22:42,225
Well, speaking of susanna,
did she ever confide in you?

475
00:22:42,227 --> 00:22:43,360
"somebody's stalking me.

476
00:22:43,429 --> 00:22:45,662
Somebody
is following me from work,"

477
00:22:45,731 --> 00:22:48,098
Or "somebody's following me
at the grocery store.

478
00:22:48,167 --> 00:22:50,234
I just feel unsafe."

479
00:22:51,437 --> 00:22:53,170
Did she ever confide in you
about that?

480
00:22:53,238 --> 00:22:54,972
She never said that, y'all.

481
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,707
Hodgkins: Were you guys close?

482
00:22:56,775 --> 00:23:01,278
Yes. We were real close
because we used to travel.

483
00:23:01,346 --> 00:23:03,947
I mean, we got close
to where we went out of town

484
00:23:04,016 --> 00:23:05,783
To dallas to go see kinfolk,

485
00:23:05,851 --> 00:23:08,686
And we'd be laughing
and talking.

486
00:23:08,754 --> 00:23:12,323
When she met bill, it was like
she stopped coming over.

487
00:23:12,391 --> 00:23:13,657
Almost like a different person.

488
00:23:13,726 --> 00:23:14,892
Yes.

489
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,329
And reference her
and bill's relationship.

490
00:23:18,397 --> 00:23:21,999
I don't know
how much you saw or didn't.

491
00:23:22,067 --> 00:23:23,534
Well, nothing, because
I never went to their house.

492
00:23:23,602 --> 00:23:25,069
Okay.

493
00:23:25,137 --> 00:23:28,939
But this one time during
the late part of summer.

494
00:23:29,008 --> 00:23:31,242
- Hodgkins: Summer of '81?
- Soto: Yes.

495
00:23:31,310 --> 00:23:34,945
She called me and told me
she was on the way to my house.

496
00:23:35,014 --> 00:23:37,280
She said,
"I want you to go with me,

497
00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:38,549
Go to the hospital."

498
00:23:38,617 --> 00:23:40,650
She said, "I was
in a fight with bill,

499
00:23:40,652 --> 00:23:42,185
And I think I've lost my baby.

500
00:23:42,255 --> 00:23:45,255
I think I'm fixin' to lose
my baby" is what she said.

501
00:23:45,257 --> 00:23:47,557
We didn't even know
she was pregnant.

502
00:23:47,559 --> 00:23:51,128
The whole time she was crying
and she was bleeding.

503
00:23:51,196 --> 00:23:55,432
And then when we got her there,
she had lost it, you know.

504
00:23:55,434 --> 00:23:57,000
Cowan: Like a miscarriage?

505
00:23:57,002 --> 00:23:58,769
- Yeah. Miscarriage.
- Okay.

506
00:23:58,837 --> 00:24:02,505
And I remember she said,
"sara, you can go now."

507
00:24:02,507 --> 00:24:04,542
She said, "I'll be okay."

508
00:24:04,610 --> 00:24:08,379
Well, as I was walking out of
the merchant, here comes bill,

509
00:24:08,447 --> 00:24:11,048
And he's going,
"I didn't do nothing to her.

510
00:24:11,050 --> 00:24:12,249
I didn't hit her.
I didn't hit her."

511
00:24:12,318 --> 00:24:14,284
I didn't say nothing to him.

512
00:24:14,286 --> 00:24:16,419
Hodgkins: Did you see
any injuries on her

513
00:24:16,489 --> 00:24:19,089
That would look like she had
been in a physical altercation?

514
00:24:19,091 --> 00:24:21,325
I did see a bruise on her.

515
00:24:22,895 --> 00:24:27,030
But she was, like,
kind of scared.

516
00:24:27,099 --> 00:24:28,499
Listening to sara's account
of that night,

517
00:24:28,567 --> 00:24:30,934
It makes you wonder
if there was more physical abuse

518
00:24:30,936 --> 00:24:33,470
In this relationship
than we originally thought.

519
00:24:33,539 --> 00:24:35,506
Soto: It was awful, y'all.

520
00:24:35,574 --> 00:24:38,609
This is the biggest mystery,
the biggest

521
00:24:38,677 --> 00:24:40,644
That I've known here in abilene.

522
00:24:43,448 --> 00:24:55,359
- Good morning, guys.
- How you doing?

523
00:24:55,427 --> 00:24:57,027
- Morning.
- Good, good.

524
00:24:57,096 --> 00:25:00,063
Siegler: We're building a strong
circumstantial evidence case

525
00:25:00,132 --> 00:25:03,234
Against billye brown
for the murders of susanna

526
00:25:03,302 --> 00:25:05,102
And her eight-year-old daughter,
francesca.

527
00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:07,037
But if billye is our killer,

528
00:25:07,106 --> 00:25:09,306
We still have two hurdles
we have to overcome--

529
00:25:09,374 --> 00:25:11,708
These rumors
of other individuals

530
00:25:11,777 --> 00:25:13,043
Being around her house

531
00:25:13,112 --> 00:25:15,546
And his alibi
that he was at work.

532
00:25:15,614 --> 00:25:18,148
Hey, I wanted
to touch base with you

533
00:25:18,150 --> 00:25:21,719
About the case back from 1982.
Do you remember that?

534
00:25:26,292 --> 00:25:28,091
Siegler: During
the initial investigation,

535
00:25:28,093 --> 00:25:30,594
This neighbor, who was
a witness, was hypnotized

536
00:25:30,662 --> 00:25:32,863
In the hopes to see
if maybe there was more

537
00:25:32,931 --> 00:25:35,332
She could remember
about seeing those men

538
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:36,867
Hanging around
susanna's house that night.

539
00:26:08,267 --> 00:26:10,701
Okay. Were they standing
by the house?

540
00:26:10,769 --> 00:26:13,237
Were they conversating
with somebody? Do you recall?

541
00:26:30,222 --> 00:26:32,823
So you just saw
the gentleman out front.

542
00:26:32,891 --> 00:26:36,226
You don't know anything about
the actual murder, the homicide?

543
00:26:37,697 --> 00:26:39,396
I do appreciate it.

544
00:26:39,465 --> 00:26:41,064
<i> - You're welcome.</i>
- All right. Bye-bye.

545
00:26:41,133 --> 00:26:42,599
<i> Bye-bye.</i>

546
00:26:42,667 --> 00:26:45,469
I think she was
in the area at some point,

547
00:26:45,537 --> 00:26:46,937
Sees a bunch of guys
and is just like,

548
00:26:47,006 --> 00:26:48,205
"oh, these guys
are hanging out."

549
00:26:48,273 --> 00:26:49,673
So when the police get to her

550
00:26:49,742 --> 00:26:51,341
And they ask,
"hey, what do you know?"

551
00:26:51,410 --> 00:26:52,976
"I don't know.
I saw this thing."

552
00:26:53,045 --> 00:26:54,645
I mean, she clearly knows
absolutely nothing

553
00:26:54,713 --> 00:26:56,547
About this murder.

554
00:26:56,615 --> 00:26:58,214
"well, I don't even know
if it was a gunshot."

555
00:26:58,284 --> 00:27:00,584
We don't even know what night
she's really talking about.

556
00:27:00,652 --> 00:27:02,319
Well, like you said, lesa,
she's just referencing.

557
00:27:02,387 --> 00:27:03,687
It could have been a gunshot.
It could have been a stabbing.

558
00:27:03,755 --> 00:27:05,155
- She has no idea.
- Not a clue.

559
00:27:05,224 --> 00:27:08,391
She didn't even hear about it
afterwards surprisingly.

560
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:11,562
The problem with hypnotized,
the courts have ruled,

561
00:27:11,630 --> 00:27:13,663
The only way
anything is admissible

562
00:27:13,733 --> 00:27:15,633
Is if the witness or report

563
00:27:15,701 --> 00:27:18,769
Can accurately reflect
what they saw and knew

564
00:27:18,837 --> 00:27:21,338
Before they were hypnotized
versus after.

565
00:27:21,407 --> 00:27:23,707
And she can't,
and the reports don't.

566
00:27:23,775 --> 00:27:27,344
Investigative techniques have
evolved a lot over the years.

567
00:27:27,413 --> 00:27:29,046
One thing that's
a lot clearer today

568
00:27:29,114 --> 00:27:32,749
Is that the use of hypnosis
in old cases

569
00:27:32,818 --> 00:27:35,386
Created way more problems
than it ever helped.

570
00:27:35,454 --> 00:27:39,089
It is not used anywhere today,
or it shouldn't be.

571
00:27:39,158 --> 00:27:42,659
So hypnosis is better used
in a vegas ballroom

572
00:27:42,727 --> 00:27:44,161
Than it is in a courtroom.

573
00:27:44,229 --> 00:27:45,696
I think you just need
to blow it all off.

574
00:27:45,764 --> 00:27:48,032
It's just a rabbit trail
that turned into a bigger mess.

575
00:27:56,875 --> 00:28:00,443
So josie worked
for nucorp in 1981,

576
00:28:00,513 --> 00:28:03,713
And during that time,
she met billye brown.

577
00:28:03,783 --> 00:28:05,248
While working at nucorp,

578
00:28:05,317 --> 00:28:08,018
Billye brown had
an affair with josie landeros,

579
00:28:08,086 --> 00:28:09,719
Which susanna found out about

580
00:28:09,789 --> 00:28:10,921
In the months
prior to her murder.

581
00:28:10,989 --> 00:28:12,155
Are you josie?

582
00:28:12,224 --> 00:28:13,257
- Yes. Come in.
- Hey, I'm jeff.

583
00:28:13,325 --> 00:28:14,792
Hodgkins:
Billye's time card shows

584
00:28:14,860 --> 00:28:17,094
That he worked
from 5:00 p.M. To 3:00 a.M.

585
00:28:17,162 --> 00:28:18,595
The evidence shows
that the murder occurred

586
00:28:18,664 --> 00:28:20,197
During that time frame.

587
00:28:20,265 --> 00:28:21,999
So for billye brown
to have committed these murders,

588
00:28:22,067 --> 00:28:24,067
He must have left work
at some point.

589
00:28:24,069 --> 00:28:25,368
We don't have
surveillance cameras

590
00:28:25,437 --> 00:28:27,204
Or cell phone records to check,

591
00:28:27,272 --> 00:28:28,605
But maybe josie can tell us

592
00:28:28,673 --> 00:28:30,573
If he could have
slipped away unnoticed.

593
00:28:30,575 --> 00:28:34,445
I had dated that billye brown
just a few times.

594
00:28:34,513 --> 00:28:35,846
And he had a girlfriend.

595
00:28:38,083 --> 00:28:40,951
Why were y'all not compatible?

596
00:28:41,019 --> 00:28:42,186
Oh, gotcha. Gotcha.

597
00:28:45,857 --> 00:28:48,058
And you met him at work,
is that correct?

598
00:28:48,127 --> 00:28:49,860
- Hodgkins: At nucorp.
- Landeros: Yeah.

599
00:28:49,928 --> 00:28:51,862
Hodgkins: Was there security
in the parking lot or anything

600
00:28:51,930 --> 00:28:53,396
When you left,
or you could just go out,

601
00:28:53,398 --> 00:28:55,199
Get in your car,
and just drive off?

602
00:28:59,938 --> 00:29:03,006
- Not somebody checking ids.
- No, no. None of that.

603
00:29:03,075 --> 00:29:05,475
So you could come and go
as you went--as you wanted.

604
00:29:05,544 --> 00:29:06,610
Okay.

605
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:11,248
So not real tight management.

606
00:29:11,316 --> 00:29:12,916
Mm-mmm.

607
00:29:12,984 --> 00:29:15,753
And you guys clocked in,
clocked out. Correct?

608
00:29:15,821 --> 00:29:17,688
- Mm-hmm.
- Okay. All right.

609
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:21,258
Did anyone ever clock in or
clock out for their coworkers?

610
00:29:39,211 --> 00:29:40,511
Cowan: Referring
to billye brown.

611
00:29:40,579 --> 00:29:42,246
Okay.

612
00:29:51,623 --> 00:29:54,157
Josie just told us that the work
environment at nucorp was lax.

613
00:29:54,226 --> 00:29:56,159
And she's not
the only former employee

614
00:29:56,228 --> 00:29:58,161
That's given us
that information.

615
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:59,530
And we've talked
to lots of folks

616
00:29:59,598 --> 00:30:03,100
That kind of spoke of nucorp
being pretty lax.

617
00:30:03,168 --> 00:30:05,202
People would
kind of come and go there.

618
00:30:05,270 --> 00:30:07,938
It was probably loose.

619
00:30:08,006 --> 00:30:11,308
That structure, that was more
like too loose.

620
00:30:11,310 --> 00:30:14,845
So maybe it should have been
more regulated, more regimented.

621
00:30:14,913 --> 00:30:16,847
People could
venture off the job.

622
00:30:16,915 --> 00:30:18,982
People could possibly leave.

623
00:30:22,821 --> 00:30:24,387
Hodgkins: Based
on this information,

624
00:30:24,456 --> 00:30:27,490
It's entirely possible that
billye could have clocked in,

625
00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:29,126
Left for a long break,

626
00:30:29,128 --> 00:30:32,462
Driven 18 minutes to his house,
committed the murders,

627
00:30:32,531 --> 00:30:35,766
Driven 18 minutes back
and clocked out

628
00:30:35,834 --> 00:30:37,334
Maybe without anyone
even noticing.

629
00:30:37,402 --> 00:30:39,802
Up until this point,
we knew that he had the motive

630
00:30:39,804 --> 00:30:41,338
And the means,
and now it appears he had

631
00:30:41,406 --> 00:30:43,306
The opportunity to commit
this crime as well.

632
00:30:43,375 --> 00:30:45,509
That could be right there,
game changer.

633
00:30:57,288 --> 00:31:00,090
This is the part where
the nerves start setting in.

634
00:31:00,158 --> 00:31:02,192
We'll just go and park over
there in his neighborhood,

635
00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:04,728
Probably a few houses down
from where he's living,

636
00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:05,863
And wait for him to get home.

637
00:31:05,931 --> 00:31:07,897
It's time to confront
our suspect

638
00:31:07,899 --> 00:31:10,767
In the 41-year-old murders
of susanna

639
00:31:10,836 --> 00:31:13,136
And her eight-year-old daughter,
francesca.

640
00:31:13,204 --> 00:31:16,506
That suspect is her common-law
husband, billye brown.

641
00:31:16,575 --> 00:31:19,108
Montgomery: I'm gonna give him
every opportunity to talk to us.

642
00:31:19,178 --> 00:31:21,010
Tell him basically,
we're working for him.

643
00:31:21,012 --> 00:31:23,112
We're trying to solve the murder

644
00:31:23,182 --> 00:31:25,215
Of his wife
and his stepdaughter.

645
00:31:25,283 --> 00:31:26,950
Siegler: We've heard
about susanna

646
00:31:27,019 --> 00:31:29,352
And billye's
volatile relationship.

647
00:31:29,354 --> 00:31:31,621
We've also been able
to poke holes in his alibi.

648
00:31:31,690 --> 00:31:33,323
But most importantly,

649
00:31:33,392 --> 00:31:36,759
The semen in susanna's mouth
matches billye brown.

650
00:31:36,829 --> 00:31:39,262
If he can't explain
why it's there,

651
00:31:39,331 --> 00:31:41,931
That could be the key
to this whole case.

652
00:31:41,933 --> 00:31:43,834
Montgomery:
This is him right here.

653
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:49,706
Hodgkins: Oh. Garage door.
Garage door.

654
00:31:49,774 --> 00:31:51,441
- How you doing?
- Good. How are you?

655
00:31:51,443 --> 00:31:53,276
Hey, I'm shawn montgomery.
I'm with the police department.

656
00:31:53,345 --> 00:31:54,844
- This is lesa.
- Hey.

657
00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:57,447
We're wanting to talk to you
about susie and cha cha.

658
00:31:57,516 --> 00:32:00,917
Oh. Oh. Oh. Flores.

659
00:32:00,919 --> 00:32:03,019
Stay here so we can hear.

660
00:32:03,088 --> 00:32:05,088
And y'all were married
at the time, right?

661
00:32:05,156 --> 00:32:06,790
Common law.
'cause she took your name.

662
00:32:06,858 --> 00:32:08,992
- Y'all got along?
- We got along fine.

663
00:32:09,061 --> 00:32:12,795
I messed up one time. I partied
one time and didn't come home.

664
00:32:12,865 --> 00:32:15,332
And she came
and put dirt in my gas tank

665
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,067
'cause she was mad at me.

666
00:32:17,135 --> 00:32:19,836
I go home and she was afraid
that I'm gonna be real mad.

667
00:32:19,904 --> 00:32:24,741
So she called police and I left,
and I'm back home the next day.

668
00:32:24,809 --> 00:32:26,476
So back then,
were you a jealous person?

669
00:32:26,545 --> 00:32:29,913
I didn't like, uh--

670
00:32:29,981 --> 00:32:32,349
Like clubbing a lot
and stuff like that.

671
00:32:32,417 --> 00:32:34,084
What about
if she had people over,

672
00:32:34,152 --> 00:32:37,220
Like, while you went to work?
Were you okay with that?

673
00:32:37,289 --> 00:32:39,422
I guess.

674
00:32:39,424 --> 00:32:42,259
Siegler: He describes her life
as hunky-dory and wonderful.

675
00:32:42,327 --> 00:32:45,228
- No problems with anything.
- No.

676
00:32:45,296 --> 00:32:48,164
Hodgkins: Was susan ever
pregnant and had a miscarriage?

677
00:32:48,233 --> 00:32:49,566
Susan had an abortion.

678
00:32:49,634 --> 00:32:51,101
Montgomery: Did she go
to the hospital

679
00:32:51,169 --> 00:32:52,669
After she had the abortion?

680
00:32:52,738 --> 00:32:55,205
Hodgkins: Bleeding or anything?
Like vaginal bleeding?

681
00:32:55,273 --> 00:32:57,206
- You know what I mean?
- I don't know.

682
00:32:57,208 --> 00:32:58,375
- I don't think so.
- Okay.

683
00:32:58,443 --> 00:33:01,177
That day.
And you went to work at 5:00

684
00:33:01,246 --> 00:33:02,979
And work until 3:00, right?

685
00:33:03,048 --> 00:33:04,748
- 3 a.M., I believe.
- Yeah.

686
00:33:04,816 --> 00:33:07,150
I can tell you,
I called her on my break.

687
00:33:07,152 --> 00:33:09,419
We all got a break
about 10 p.M.

688
00:33:09,488 --> 00:33:11,454
- Hodgkins: You talked to her?
- Yeah.

689
00:33:11,456 --> 00:33:13,990
Okay. She seemed okay? Didn't
tell you anybody was over?

690
00:33:14,058 --> 00:33:16,025
- Didn't seem anything...
- Seemed same every night

691
00:33:16,095 --> 00:33:17,527
When I called.
Nothing different.

692
00:33:17,596 --> 00:33:20,863
Well, you would stop home
sometimes during your break.

693
00:33:20,865 --> 00:33:23,065
No. It's too far away.

694
00:33:23,067 --> 00:33:24,634
It's 15-to-18-minute drive.

695
00:33:24,703 --> 00:33:26,336
How am I gonna do it
on my break?

696
00:33:26,404 --> 00:33:27,837
I only got 30 minutes.

697
00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:29,072
Hodgkins: Never left
the facility on break?

698
00:33:29,140 --> 00:33:30,540
On break,
I don't think I ever did.

699
00:33:30,609 --> 00:33:32,342
- You don't think you did?
- I don't think.

700
00:33:32,411 --> 00:33:34,044
That was 40 years ago, ma'am.

701
00:33:34,112 --> 00:33:37,714
So people would go in and out
of the gate at break time.

702
00:33:37,783 --> 00:33:39,016
Brown: Not billye.

703
00:33:39,084 --> 00:33:40,650
- Not billye.
- No, not billye.

704
00:33:40,719 --> 00:33:43,252
But I don't think
I ever left at 10:00

705
00:33:43,322 --> 00:33:45,354
Because we had
from 10:00 to 10:30

706
00:33:45,356 --> 00:33:47,324
And we were back
on our machines.

707
00:33:47,392 --> 00:33:50,027
And we had a time clock.

708
00:33:50,095 --> 00:33:51,227
Hodgkins: But we know
that people would clock in

709
00:33:51,296 --> 00:33:52,895
And clock out for each other.

710
00:33:52,897 --> 00:33:55,966
I wouldn't do that.
I never clocked anybody out

711
00:33:56,034 --> 00:33:58,067
And I never had anybody
clock me out.

712
00:33:58,069 --> 00:33:59,769
See, listen to how good
he sounds right now.

713
00:33:59,838 --> 00:34:02,305
He's not nervous.
He's not shaking.

714
00:34:02,374 --> 00:34:04,775
The longer he talks, the more
comfortable he's getting.

715
00:34:04,843 --> 00:34:08,044
Well, the problem is
is that your alibi is work.

716
00:34:08,113 --> 00:34:10,580
And we know that you can
come and go from nucorp.

717
00:34:10,649 --> 00:34:12,549
Nucorp was lax
about their policies.

718
00:34:12,617 --> 00:34:14,684
People would check people in
and check people out.

719
00:34:14,686 --> 00:34:16,319
You could have left work
for an hour,

720
00:34:16,388 --> 00:34:19,589
Still look clocked in
and had time to do this.

721
00:34:19,591 --> 00:34:24,894
So you're gonna fit 36 minutes
of driving time...

722
00:34:24,896 --> 00:34:26,429
Hodgkins: Mm-hmm.

723
00:34:26,431 --> 00:34:28,965
...And a double murder
into one hour.

724
00:34:29,034 --> 00:34:31,000
- Hodgkins: You could do it.
- Wow.

725
00:34:31,069 --> 00:34:32,335
And then go back to work

726
00:34:32,404 --> 00:34:34,938
And like, "hey, nothing. Hey."
come on.

727
00:34:35,006 --> 00:34:37,374
That right there.
If they said to me,

728
00:34:37,442 --> 00:34:38,841
I was like, "you know what?
You can ---- yourself.

729
00:34:38,911 --> 00:34:42,845
I'm out of here.
I didn't do this. I'm done."

730
00:34:42,915 --> 00:34:45,482
An innocent man's not sitting,
getting beat up, beat up.

731
00:34:45,550 --> 00:34:47,517
- Now they're accusing him.
- Yeah.

732
00:34:47,586 --> 00:34:48,952
Montgomery: Was y'all's
sex life good?

733
00:34:49,020 --> 00:34:50,620
- Yeah.
- No complaints

734
00:34:50,689 --> 00:34:52,589
- From either one of y'all?
- No.

735
00:34:52,657 --> 00:34:56,359
Hodgkins: How did susan feel
about oral sex? Giving it.

736
00:34:56,428 --> 00:34:59,963
She didn't mind.
I wasn't very fond of it.

737
00:35:00,031 --> 00:35:01,698
So you guys weren't big
into that or anything?

738
00:35:01,766 --> 00:35:02,832
- No. No.
- Okay.

739
00:35:02,901 --> 00:35:05,468
I don't care for oral sex.

740
00:35:05,536 --> 00:35:07,337
Well, you're about the only man
on this planet

741
00:35:07,405 --> 00:35:08,771
That don't care for that.

742
00:35:08,773 --> 00:35:10,407
[chuckles]

743
00:35:10,475 --> 00:35:12,108
When was the last time

744
00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:14,244
That you had sexual intercourse
with her?

745
00:35:14,312 --> 00:35:17,146
It probably would
have been fairly recent.

746
00:35:17,216 --> 00:35:20,183
Can you say definitely
not that night?

747
00:35:20,251 --> 00:35:21,818
- The night I went to work?
- Yeah.

748
00:35:21,887 --> 00:35:23,987
I can say no that night.

749
00:35:25,090 --> 00:35:27,624
I've never been in the need
performing oral sex on women.

750
00:35:27,692 --> 00:35:29,593
- [chuckles]
- okay. Okay.

751
00:35:29,661 --> 00:35:31,561
Billye brown is saying

752
00:35:31,630 --> 00:35:34,831
That they definitely did not
have sex the day of the murder,

753
00:35:34,899 --> 00:35:37,333
But that is not
what the dna says.

754
00:35:37,402 --> 00:35:40,503
That is huge.
He may be a smooth talker,

755
00:35:40,505 --> 00:35:43,139
But how is he gonna talk
his way out of this?

756
00:35:43,207 --> 00:35:44,841
- I got a question.
- Okay.

757
00:35:44,909 --> 00:35:49,446
Susan is lying there dead
and your sperm is in her mouth.

758
00:35:49,514 --> 00:35:50,947
- That's not mine.
- Yes, it is.

759
00:35:51,016 --> 00:35:53,483
- No, it's not mine.
- Absolutely is.

760
00:35:53,552 --> 00:35:57,087
No, it is not mine.
No, it is not mine. No.

761
00:35:57,155 --> 00:35:59,522
- It is not mine.
- And the lab says it's yours.

762
00:35:59,590 --> 00:36:04,160
No. If your dna says that,
your dna has been concocted.

763
00:36:04,229 --> 00:36:07,097
- Can't be mine.
- I'm asking you to explain it,

764
00:36:07,165 --> 00:36:09,031
And you're not giving me
an explanation

765
00:36:09,033 --> 00:36:10,533
Other than going,
"nope, that can't be true."

766
00:36:10,602 --> 00:36:13,502
You're pointing at me
like I'm the guy.

767
00:36:13,504 --> 00:36:15,371
There is evidence
that you are the guy.

768
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,307
There is evidence that you
are the guy.

769
00:36:17,375 --> 00:36:19,309
You say so, yes. I say no.

770
00:36:19,377 --> 00:36:23,012
I can't tell you when
the last time we had any sex.

771
00:36:23,014 --> 00:36:25,815
I'm sorry, but I know damn well

772
00:36:25,884 --> 00:36:28,284
It wasn't in between
my shift anywhere.

773
00:36:28,353 --> 00:36:30,386
I did not leave work.

774
00:36:30,455 --> 00:36:32,388
There's no reason
for it to be there.

775
00:36:32,457 --> 00:36:34,524
- Did you kill susan?
- No.

776
00:36:34,593 --> 00:36:36,392
- Did you kill francesca?
- No.

777
00:36:36,461 --> 00:36:39,195
If you see "killer" anywhere
standing here,

778
00:36:39,264 --> 00:36:40,930
Then you need a new job.

779
00:36:40,999 --> 00:36:42,933
All right, mr. Brown,
I appreciate you talking to us.

780
00:36:43,001 --> 00:36:44,400
- Okay?
- Yes, sir.

781
00:36:44,469 --> 00:36:47,704
I don't think
that mr. Brown did anything

782
00:36:47,772 --> 00:36:49,405
To help himself
in this situation.

783
00:36:49,474 --> 00:36:50,941
I don't think he said anything

784
00:36:51,009 --> 00:36:54,410
That makes us second-guess him
as the main suspect.

785
00:36:54,479 --> 00:36:57,113
And the fact that his sperm
is in her mouth,

786
00:36:57,182 --> 00:36:58,981
That's gonna be hard
for him to explain

787
00:36:59,051 --> 00:37:00,817
When he just says
it never happened.

788
00:37:00,885 --> 00:37:04,086
He wants to convince you
that he's not the guy.

789
00:37:04,088 --> 00:37:05,955
Doesn't matter what evidence.
If there's evidence

790
00:37:05,957 --> 00:37:08,491
That points to him,
no, that's not real evidence.

791
00:37:20,738 --> 00:37:24,340
Siegler: When we put together
everything that we found out--

792
00:37:24,409 --> 00:37:28,310
New, old and otherwise--
and look up here at the board

793
00:37:28,312 --> 00:37:31,381
And we go back to when we first
talked about the case,

794
00:37:31,449 --> 00:37:32,849
What are y'all thinking?

795
00:37:32,851 --> 00:37:34,617
After everything
that we've learned,

796
00:37:34,686 --> 00:37:37,153
It's time for us
to sit down and discuss

797
00:37:37,222 --> 00:37:39,021
Who we think
is involved in the murder

798
00:37:39,091 --> 00:37:40,990
Of francesca and susanna.

799
00:37:41,059 --> 00:37:43,459
Starting on "unknown."

800
00:37:43,528 --> 00:37:45,395
I think going through
the crime scene

801
00:37:45,463 --> 00:37:47,430
And all those things
that we learned,

802
00:37:47,498 --> 00:37:50,833
Kind of take that unknown,
random, intruder burglar.

803
00:37:50,902 --> 00:37:52,502
I think we've
debunked that pretty well.

804
00:37:52,570 --> 00:37:54,470
'cause, specifically,
what are you thinking?

805
00:37:54,539 --> 00:37:56,906
The no-force entry,
the no rummaging.

806
00:37:56,908 --> 00:37:58,908
- Nothing taken.
- Nothing taken.

807
00:37:58,977 --> 00:38:00,543
There was no drawers open,

808
00:38:00,612 --> 00:38:02,278
Like people were rummaging
through things.

809
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:03,612
Good point.

810
00:38:03,614 --> 00:38:05,882
And the girl hypnotized
back then

811
00:38:05,950 --> 00:38:07,550
Didn't tell
the same story anyway.

812
00:38:07,619 --> 00:38:08,551
She didn't remember nothing.

813
00:38:14,759 --> 00:38:17,594
It's like it's a non-starter.

814
00:38:17,662 --> 00:38:19,462
Are you good with taking this
off the board?

815
00:38:19,464 --> 00:38:20,763
- Yes, ma'am.
- You?

816
00:38:20,832 --> 00:38:22,565
- Lesa?
- Yes, ma'am.

817
00:38:25,503 --> 00:38:29,306
So, all that being said,
we get right back over here.

818
00:38:29,374 --> 00:38:31,374
What would be the things
you'd wanna point out?

819
00:38:31,443 --> 00:38:33,610
He was extremely jealous,
possessive.

820
00:38:33,678 --> 00:38:35,411
He liked to control her.

821
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,981
He wanted to know where she was,
what she was doing at all times.

822
00:38:42,454 --> 00:38:44,387
- All right.
- I think part of the control

823
00:38:44,456 --> 00:38:46,789
Was also to control
who she was around

824
00:38:46,791 --> 00:38:48,324
And who she was allowed
to be around.

825
00:38:48,326 --> 00:38:49,525
Yeah.

826
00:38:49,594 --> 00:38:52,228
He came home
I guess unexpectedly.

827
00:38:52,297 --> 00:38:55,698
She rushed me out the gate.
I have to go now.

828
00:38:55,766 --> 00:38:57,767
Why is she so scared?

829
00:38:57,836 --> 00:38:59,502
That's how much control
and jealousy he had.

830
00:38:59,570 --> 00:39:01,204
- That's right.
- And then remember,

831
00:39:01,272 --> 00:39:04,474
Your challenge was what do
you do about the nucorp alibi?

832
00:39:04,542 --> 00:39:06,109
- And you addressed it.
- Yeah.

833
00:39:06,177 --> 00:39:09,078
It was believed to be airtight
out there at nucorp,

834
00:39:09,147 --> 00:39:10,647
And that is not the case.

835
00:39:20,491 --> 00:39:24,394
And then we get to y'all's
interview 41 years later.

836
00:39:24,462 --> 00:39:25,995
I mean, where
do you wanna start?

837
00:39:26,064 --> 00:39:27,930
He thinks he's believable

838
00:39:27,999 --> 00:39:31,334
Because he's had 41 years
of telling the same story.

839
00:39:31,402 --> 00:39:33,102
- Everything was hunky-dory.
- Yeah.

840
00:39:33,171 --> 00:39:35,772
And what did he tell you
about their sex life?

841
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,708
Well, we specifically asked
about the oral sex,

842
00:39:38,776 --> 00:39:41,111
And according to him,
that never happened

843
00:39:41,179 --> 00:39:43,245
Because he doesn't like it.

844
00:39:43,315 --> 00:39:45,081
And then y'all
asked him specifically

845
00:39:45,149 --> 00:39:47,150
But what about on the day of,
on that Monday.

846
00:39:47,218 --> 00:39:48,651
And he said no.

847
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:51,387
Can you say definitely
not that night?

848
00:39:51,455 --> 00:39:53,022
- The night I went to work?
- Yeah.

849
00:39:53,024 --> 00:39:55,124
I can say no that night. Yeah.

850
00:39:55,126 --> 00:39:57,560
Why would he double down
on something that's so provable?

851
00:39:57,628 --> 00:39:58,895
- Doesn't make any sense.
- It doesn't make any sense.

852
00:39:58,897 --> 00:40:00,863
You have dna in her mouth.

853
00:40:00,932 --> 00:40:02,932
- Yeah.
- You're there.

854
00:40:02,934 --> 00:40:05,502
So, what's your plan
with all this evidence?

855
00:40:05,570 --> 00:40:08,370
Present this to the da's office,
and I'm gonna ask

856
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,407
For an arrest warrant
for first-degree felony murder

857
00:40:11,476 --> 00:40:15,678
For susan flores brown
and francesca martinez.

858
00:40:15,747 --> 00:40:18,447
From what we've found thus far,
I feel good.

859
00:40:18,449 --> 00:40:19,649
I feel really good.

860
00:40:19,717 --> 00:40:21,684
- You can sell it?
- I think so.

861
00:40:21,753 --> 00:40:23,686
All the evidence
points to billye brown,

862
00:40:23,755 --> 00:40:25,521
And this case
will never get any better.

863
00:40:25,590 --> 00:40:28,624
You owe it to susan,
and you owe it to francesca

864
00:40:28,693 --> 00:40:30,459
To put this
in front of the court.

865
00:40:30,529 --> 00:40:32,128
- Go sell it.
- All right. Will do.

866
00:40:32,130 --> 00:40:33,096
Good luck, gentlemen.

867
00:40:45,810 --> 00:40:49,912
When I met linda and rita back
in 2020, it was very apparent

868
00:40:49,981 --> 00:40:51,748
That this case has affected them
over the years.

869
00:40:51,816 --> 00:40:54,484
It's very--just heart wrenching.

870
00:40:54,552 --> 00:40:56,853
Hello, ladies.
Nice to see y'all.

871
00:40:56,921 --> 00:40:59,088
Cowan: So I've put a lot
of pressure on myself

872
00:40:59,157 --> 00:41:03,092
To be able to go them and tell
them we know who did this,

873
00:41:03,094 --> 00:41:06,929
We can prove it, and we're going
to arrest this individual.

874
00:41:06,931 --> 00:41:09,465
Let me introduce everybody.
This is detective montgomery.

875
00:41:09,534 --> 00:41:11,100
- Hi. How are you doing?
- Nice to meet you.

876
00:41:11,169 --> 00:41:12,568
Assistant chief jordan.

877
00:41:12,637 --> 00:41:14,437
- Nice to meet you.
- Nice to meet y'all.

878
00:41:16,140 --> 00:41:19,708
I know this investigation
has ups and downs.

879
00:41:19,778 --> 00:41:21,744
I never thought
in a million years

880
00:41:21,812 --> 00:41:24,146
I'd be sitting here in this room

881
00:41:24,148 --> 00:41:25,748
To be able to share
this good news.

882
00:41:28,853 --> 00:41:31,253
Spoke to da's office,

883
00:41:31,323 --> 00:41:34,924
And we're gonna seek an
arrest warrant for billye brown.

884
00:41:36,294 --> 00:41:37,660
Wow.

885
00:41:41,433 --> 00:41:42,866
[sobbing]

886
00:41:46,070 --> 00:41:48,471
Finally. Oh, my god. Finally.

887
00:41:50,241 --> 00:41:54,244
I didn't have my hopes up
'cause it's been so long,

888
00:41:54,312 --> 00:41:57,547
And I just thought
there's no way they can do this.

889
00:41:57,615 --> 00:41:59,982
It's been 41 years.

890
00:41:59,984 --> 00:42:03,019
And to hear this news,
it's just--

891
00:42:03,988 --> 00:42:08,391
It's just unbelievable.
It's like a dream.

892
00:42:08,459 --> 00:42:11,294
I'm gonna go visit their
graveside and let them know

893
00:42:11,362 --> 00:42:14,531
So they can rest in peace now.

894
00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:19,269
I thought about it every day
for 41 years.

895
00:42:19,337 --> 00:42:21,904
It's the last thing
I think about at night

896
00:42:21,973 --> 00:42:24,140
And the first thing
I think about in the morning

897
00:42:24,208 --> 00:42:26,042
Are those two beautiful girls.

898
00:42:28,112 --> 00:42:31,180
- Thank you so much.
- Absolutely.

899
00:42:31,182 --> 00:42:34,884
Now, finally, maybe you're gonna
get justice for both of 'em.

900
00:42:34,952 --> 00:42:36,185
- Yeah.
- Oh, my gosh.

901
00:42:36,254 --> 00:42:38,888
I'm gonna give you a hug.

902
00:42:38,956 --> 00:42:40,423
So nice to meet you
and bring you good news.

903
00:42:40,491 --> 00:42:45,061
It feels so good to be able
to tell linda and rita

904
00:42:45,129 --> 00:42:48,164
After all these years that they
can finally get justice

905
00:42:48,232 --> 00:42:49,599
For their sister
and their niece.

906
00:42:51,736 --> 00:42:54,904
[sobbing]

907
00:42:54,972 --> 00:42:57,507
You know what? I knew it.

908
00:43:04,482 --> 00:43:06,516
[siren blaring]

909
00:43:13,525 --> 00:43:15,191
What's up, man?

910
00:43:15,259 --> 00:43:18,328
Siegler: On October the 27th
of 2023,

911
00:43:18,396 --> 00:43:22,798
Taylor county adas erin stamey
and arimy beasley

912
00:43:22,867 --> 00:43:25,101
Issued an arrest warrant
against billye brown

913
00:43:25,169 --> 00:43:26,469
For two charges of murder.