[vocalizing]
♪ in the height of madness ♪
♪ do we lose everything? ♪
Kelly siegler: Lesa, I'm glad you're here.
Well, I'm honored that you guys brought me in.
We worked four cases with y'all,
And you and I worked two side by side.
You can talk to everybody.
Everybody I've seen you interview.
- And you're really good. - Oh, thank you.
You're kind of spoiled. All of yours got cleared.
- Every case ended in an arrest. - Yes, it did.
We've had success working with lisa hodgkins
On multiple cases in fort myers, florida,
And I'm excited to have her expert interrogation skills
As we investigate the tragic double murder
Of susanna flores brown
And her eight-year-old daughter, francesca.
Have you ever had one before
Where it's a mother-daughter murder?
No. It takes a special kind of evil
To murder an eight-year-old girl.
Siegler: Susanna was a very vivacious,
Outgoing young mother
Who worked at a local factory in abilene
And lived with her common-law husband, billye brown,
As well as the light of her life,
Her eight-year-old daughter, francesca.
Cha cha, as she was known, was a curious,
Spunky little girl that everybody in the family adored.
And their shocking deaths rocked the entire community.
On March 8, 1982, susanna attended a tupperware party
While francesca was playing over at a neighbor's house.
They returned home about 8:30 p.M.
At around 3:00 in the morning, billye arrived home
To find his common-law wife and his eight-year-old stepdaughter
Brutally murdered and strangled to death.
Hodgkins: I don't know that a lot of people realize
How long strangulation actually takes.
And if it's a face-to-face strangulation,
The killer's looking in the victim's eyes
And the victim's looking in the killer's eyes
The entire time they're taking their life from them.
As a mom, I can't even imagine
The horror that susanna had to have felt
During those last minutes of her life,
Knowing that her baby was defenseless in the next room
And there was nothing she could do to protect her.
It breaks your heart. We need to get them justice.
How do you not wanna work a case
Where an eight-year-old girl's murdered?
Those are the ones we wanna work the best
And the first and the hardest.
Not to put any pressure on you or anything,
But welcome to texas.
- Good morning. - Good morning. How you doing?
- Good. I'm kelly. - I'm shawn.
- Nice to meet you. - I'm jeff.
Hi, jeff. Nice to meet you.
Siegler: I love this case. She does, too.
- Montgomery: Yeah, it's good. - So, day one.
This is kind of different for us to start off--
By looking at the crime scene.
What are you thinking? Why do you wanna do this first?
When you go in there and you see the crime scene,
How small it is, look at where we believe
The bodies were laying, where items were at,
I think it helps put everything in perspective.
What'd you all do, build like a mock-up of it?
Yeah, we had some folks help us out and build a mock-up,
Kind of give a representation of the house.
Was it hard?
I don't know. I didn't do it, so...
With a case like this,
The first thing that we wanna try and figure out
Is the relationship between the suspect and the victims.
So come on in.
With the brutality of this case,
With the weapon involved, with the way it happened,
We're gonna try and figure out,
Is this someone that she knew,
Or is this an unknown killer?
Okay, so, what happened at first, jeff?
All this occurred on March 9th of 1982.
Billye brown, susanna brown's common-law husband,
Left work at 3 a.M., getting home at roughly 3:23-25.
Walks into the residence
And discovers susanna and francesca deceased.
In his statement, he says he notices
The back door open, and ultimately he calls 911.
When questioned, billye said that he was at work that night
When the murders occurred.
But in any homicide investigation,
The significant other is always the first suspect.
And in this case, the police department
Considered him to be the prime suspect.
First responders came in,
And they discovered susanna and francesca.
Both had been strangled with ligature devices.
With susanna, a lamp cord still attached to the lamp.
And then francesca's a phone cord from the living room.
Susanna is found laying on her back.
And then she has three lacerations to her head.
Then you have a lamp that is on the floor,
And the lamp power cord has been wrapped around her neck.
Hodgkins: The ligatures used to kill susanna and francesca
Were both items that were already in the house,
Which suggests that this was a crime of opportunity
And there was no intent on the killer to commit murder.
Strangulation is a very expressive
And personal means of homicide,
Which leans more towards the suspect knowing the victim.
Maybe all this started with an argument.
And maybe he goes to the lamp, decides to grab it and whack.
- And how many hits? - Three.
Well, there's several edges you could have made.
One, two, three linear marks with one hit.
Okay, so let me be susanna. So, she's laying down.
Something that's noticed. She doesn't have any of this.
You know what? Now put your knees on my arms
To hold them down while you're strangling me.
Just like that. I mean, I can't do anything.
Wrap it around her twice. Susan's dead.
Susanna's strangulation suggests a rageful crime of passion.
So I can only imagine the fear that francesca must have felt,
Possibly witnessing her mom die at the hands
Of someone she knew and trusted, afraid she'd be next.
- Lay down. Be francesca. - Okay.
Hodgkins: The killer kills susanna.
Cha cha either came in, saw me, screamed, cried.
Now I gotta take care of her.
I'm gonna come in here. I'm gonna grab this phone cord.
- Cut, cut. - Siegler: It's cut twice.
Hodgkins: It wasn't ripped out of the phone
And it wasn't ripped out of the wall. It's cut twice.
She's under the bed. Grab her by her feet.
I'm gonna pull her out from under the bed.
I'm gonna take the cord. I'm gonna wrap this around,
And then I'm just gonna hold this here.
She's gonna die right here.
I don't think that anybody thinks
That there's a motive to kill an eight-year-old little baby.
So she was never the target.
Whether they knew she was gonna be a witness
When this all started
Or she cried out and made herself known
And became a witness later,
Whoever did this was not gonna leave her alive,
And that's why she's a victim.
Burglars wanna come in and they wanna take your stuff,
Whatever it is they can grab and carry and get out.
Burglars don't wanna hit a house where there's people at home.
There was no drawers open,
Like people were rummaging through things.
Siegler: Any signs of forced entry?
According to the officers
And everybody that was on the scene, no.
In mr. Brown's statement,
He referenced seeing the window open,
But I think the window is a non-starter
'cause the screen's on the window.
If somebody broke in the house
And used the window as their entry and exit point,
They're not gonna take the screen off
And then put the screen back on.
It's just not logical.
Hodgkins: There was nothing stolen.
While the window and back door were open,
There were no signs of forced entry.
Is it possible that billye attempted
To stage the scene to cover up his tracks?
We don't know. But at this point, none of us believe
That these murders were committed by a stranger.
It doesn't mean it was billye,
But it does suggest it was someone she knew.
Well, this was very helpful.
I kind of like doing this part first.
- Hodgkins: Yeah, absolutely. - All right. Awesome.
♪ drive me home ♪
♪ it's getting late ♪
♪ if I stay here any longer ♪
♪ things will never be the same ♪
Susanna's sisters, linda and rita,
Still live here in town?
Yes, ma'am. They are ecstatic
That somebody's looking at the case.
Siegler: Good. They gotta deal with losing
Their 30-year-old sister and their eight-year-old niece.
They say time heals all wounds, but not all wounds.
No.
The abilene police department has a new cold-case unit
Formed December of last year.
This has been a passion I've kind of found working cold cases
That really need attention.
Linda: Hi.
Good to see you again.
Cowan: When you find a cold case that involves
A mother and daughter, it was a tragedy,
And I wanted to find a resolve.
She was our big sister and a wonderful mother.
She was pragmatic.
She looked after us and made sure that we had what we need,
Be it material-wise or just, you know, moral support.
How often did y'all get to see francesca?
As often as possible. She was our baby.
What was their mother-daughter relationship like?
You know, susan had her in all different kinds of things.
The brownie thing. The ballerina thing.
She was just sharp as a whip.
Susan was a very strong young woman.
Everybody loved her. She had lots of friends.
And then cha cha came along. Oh, my goodness.
She was just a little bundle of joy
From the day she came into our lives.
Just very curious about everything, everyone.
She was an angel.
Talk about bill and susan. When did they meet?
We used to go to the nightclub, go dancing.
- And she met him. - Siegler: At the clubs.
- Linda: Mm-hmm. - Siegler: Okay.
Linda: He was a cool guy.
Dressed well. Spoke well.
- Kind of smooth, charming. - Yes.
I didn't like him because I just knew he had a bad reputation.
- For? - Being a womanizer.
We were at a bar, and I saw him shoving her and pushing her.
She said, "I'm okay." and she left with him.
For almost a year,
I didn't speak to my sister towards the end
Because I couldn't stand him.
We had horrible fights. And...
She told me I didn't know what I was talking about.
"he was a good guy."
And that was the last time we spoke.
Do you remember the night how you found out?
- A phone call. - Rita: From bill.
From bill.
Rita: It was 3:00 in the morning,
And he said, "rita, I got home from work
And the girls are dead.
The girls are dead."
And I hung up the phone.
I woke up linda. We couldn't believe it.
We drove there, and there were police cars.
And we just sat in the car and we watched,
But we just still weren't--
Wasn't registering.
Siegler: Meeting the sisters of susanna
And having a sister myself,
The thought of having to go for 41 years
Wondering who killed my sister,
I don't even know how you live with that.
After murdering my sister, somebody went in,
Deliberately drugged my niece, a small, little child,
Out from the bed, and then murdered her.
I just cannot fathom that.
We gotta bring them justice.
- Thank you so much. - See you next week.
Okay. 41 year-old-case, 1982. We just need
To put our brains together and have some good luck.
We're investigating the tragic double homicide
Of 30-year-old mother, susanna flores brown,
And her baby, eight-year-old francesca martinez.
This is one of francesca.
Right before she turns eight maybe?
After examining a mock crime scene,
We've determined that it's more likely this murder
Was committed by someone that susanna knew
And less likely that it was a stranger.
Francesca's biological father had an alibi
And was ruled out by the police department.
So we need to consider any leads into unknown suspects
In susanna's world, including a tip that a neighbor
Possibly saw someone near her house.
The next-door neighbor gave statement
That she observes two men in a dark-colored vehicle
Parked in front of susanna's house
Between 11:30 and 11:45.
But she only identified the vehicle, not a person.
So she was hypnotized.
After this witness gave her statement,
She was hypnotized to see if she could remember anything else.
Cowan: But she could not identify the person.
- Right. - So there's a lot of reasons
Why she could be wrong.
Correct.
So, what does that mean?
Were these men really, in fact, involved?
Is there someone else who committed this crime?
Or are these just hurdles in building a case
Against our primary suspect, billye brown?
Okay, so, his relationship to susanna,
We wanna say common-law husband?
Yes, ma'am. She had taken his name,
But they were never married.
And how would you describe
Their relationship up to this point?
- Montgomery: Definitely rocky. - Cowan: Yeah.
- He's messing around on her. - He is, yes.
November of '81 is when billye says susan
Found out about the relationship.
She kicked him out. They had a big fight.
She put his clothes in the truck.
Officers had to come to the scene
Where he's trying to get in the house,
And they actually warn him of criminal trespass at that time,
But obviously she let him back in.
Okay, so let's talk about his alibi.
We got to put that up here, too.
Cowan: Nucorp was the place he worked at.
His alibi was that he left the house
Around 4:30, clocked in at 5:00,
Leaves work at 3:00 in the morning.
He gets home at 3:20.
So he's saying he's at work. That's his alibi.
Basically.
All the nucorp people are huge.
Hodgkins: Right.
We know the murder occurred after 8:30 p.M.
When susanna left her neighbor's house
And before billy returned home from work
And called 911 at 3:25 a.M.
According to his time card,
Billy worked for nucorp, a manufacturing company,
From 5:00 p.M. To 3:00 a.M.,
Which is about an 18-minute drive from the crime scene.
The question is, could he have slipped away from work,
Committed the murders, returned to work,
And clocked out at 3:00 without anyone noticing?
Is there anything else that we didn't talk about?
The seminal fluid found in her mouth.
It belongs to billye.
He has the best defense to it, though.
"we were common-law married.
Of course we had sexual intercourse."
Siegler: During the initial investigation,
Swabs were collected
And seminal fluid was obtained from susanna's mouth,
Though a profile could not be determined.
Dna technology has greatly improved since then.
And recent testing by texas dps lab
Identified billye brown's dna.
Thank you for coming in.
She has a seminar she's got to go to,
So she came in to do this for us before she has to leave.
Because there's a relationship
Between billye brown and susanna,
The fact that his semen is in her mouth
Might not be important, but we're bringing dr. Pinneri in
To discuss the window of time
That seminal fluid would still be able to be found
So that we can better understand
If the presence of billy's semen
Is connected to her murder.
I had the autopsy report.
It doesn't describe any external genitalia injuries
And no vaginal trauma.
But they did collect oral swabs,
And they were positive for acid phosphatase,
Which is a compound that's present in semen,
Which they did see.
So there could be some sort of either forced or consensual sex?
I can't say. There's no injuries that I can see.
Can you talk about timing and what you can glean
From the fact that dna is found in her oral swab?
Yeah, that's hard to say how long semen will stay liable
In someone's mouth.
But it would somewhat indicate to me
That there was no mouthwashing or drinking
Or anything after the act.
Because every time you swallow something, you're diluting it.
It would kind of suggests kind of a close proximity.
The presence of his samples suggests
That they engaged in oral sex that day,
But there's no mention of that in his initial statement.
Maybe nobody asked that specific, hard question
Of billye brown.
Or did billye brown leave that out for a reason?
Hodgkins: This is probably a case
That's kind of lingered out in abilene for a while.
An unsolved murder of an eight-year-old.
Cowan: That sticks in people's heads.
Hodgkins: We're gonna start talking to witnesses,
And we think it's important to start with katherine spivey,
The last person to see susanna and francesca alive.
Francesca was playing at katherine spivey's house
While susanna attended a tupperware party.
Susanna picked francesca up from katherine's house
Around 8:30 p.M. We wanna see if katherine
Remembers anything unusual about susanna's behavior.
The night that happened, her little girl--
We call her cha cha-- was at our house.
I think she was eight years old at that time.
- Got you. - Same age as our daughter.
Her mom was at the door to pick her up,
And she wanted to spend the night.
And so I said, "not tonight." make me cry.
- Right. - "not tonight,
Because it's a school night,
So you can come back and play tomorrow."
Do you remember how susan was?
She was a matter of fact with cha cha
That "we need to go now."
Had she ever spoken to you about any troubles?
She was really, really, really
Extremely scared of her boyfriend.
I guess he was just possessive of her.
He didn't want her having any relationships
Outside them, any friends or whatever.
And one time, I was picking up pecans in her backyard,
And he came home I guess unexpectedly.
She rushed me out the gate. I have to go now.
Did she say anything like, "oh, gosh, you got to go because..."
- "he's home." - "he's home." okay.
[line ringing]
Hodgkins: Susanna's brother, richard flores, was at the scene
The night his sister and niece were killed.
We're hoping he has some insight
Into how billye brown was acting.
So, what did you know about susie and bill?
Did you find that odd at the time?
What did she tell you directly about bill?
Do you remember what she said it was for?
Okay.
This is the first we've heard
That susanna wanted to end her relationship with billye brown
And was, in fact, fearful.
But was she fearful of billye's reaction to her moving on,
Or was there already a new man in her life capable of murder?
She wasn't excited about being susanna brown.
Yeah. Okay.
Siegler: Leading up to her murder,
We've learned that susanna was scared
And she was looking to get a gun.
If billye brown was the cause, we need to learn why.
We're gonna speak to everybody
That we can find in susanna's world
To see if she opened up about her common-law marriage
Or if maybe there was anybody else
She was having issues with at the time.
Did you ever have conversations with her
About her life and her future in bill or anything like that?
All right, that's good.
Be more descriptive. What do you mean?
Okay.
Siegler: The physical evidence tells us
That billye and susanna engaged in oral sex
In the hours before her murder.
Maybe their physical incompatibility
Played a role in what happened that night.
You've been super, super helpful. Thank you so much.
Siegler: Billye brown told the police back then
That he was trying to call susanna for quite a while
Before he was finally able to get a hold of her.
Is it possible that their ongoing sexual problems
Emasculated him?
And when susanna didn't answer the phone,
His feelings of insecurity, jealousy, and control took over,
Sparking an argument that escalated into murder.
That's great. That's great. Ooh.
All right, so we are going to talk to sara soto,
Who is gonna be, I believe, a cousin to susanna.
Hodgkins: While we've determined
A possible motive for billye brown,
Since his time card indicated that he was at work,
We're still unsure if he had the opportunity
To commit these murders.
- Hi. - Sara?
Would you be able to visit with us?
So we need to continue to look into the possibility
That there was another man in susanna's life
That concerned her.
What's going on with this, y'all?
Well, speaking of susanna, did she ever confide in you?
"somebody's stalking me.
Somebody is following me from work,"
Or "somebody's following me at the grocery store.
I just feel unsafe."
Did she ever confide in you about that?
She never said that, y'all.
Hodgkins: Were you guys close?
Yes. We were real close because we used to travel.
I mean, we got close to where we went out of town
To dallas to go see kinfolk,
And we'd be laughing and talking.
When she met bill, it was like she stopped coming over.
Almost like a different person.
Yes.
And reference her and bill's relationship.
I don't know how much you saw or didn't.
Well, nothing, because I never went to their house.
Okay.
But this one time during the late part of summer.
- Hodgkins: Summer of '81? - Soto: Yes.
She called me and told me she was on the way to my house.
She said, "I want you to go with me,
Go to the hospital."
She said, "I was in a fight with bill,
And I think I've lost my baby.
I think I'm fixin' to lose my baby" is what she said.
We didn't even know she was pregnant.
The whole time she was crying and she was bleeding.
And then when we got her there, she had lost it, you know.
Cowan: Like a miscarriage?
- Yeah. Miscarriage. - Okay.
And I remember she said, "sara, you can go now."
She said, "I'll be okay."
Well, as I was walking out of the merchant, here comes bill,
And he's going, "I didn't do nothing to her.
I didn't hit her. I didn't hit her."
I didn't say nothing to him.
Hodgkins: Did you see any injuries on her
That would look like she had been in a physical altercation?
I did see a bruise on her.
But she was, like, kind of scared.
Listening to sara's account of that night,
It makes you wonder if there was more physical abuse
In this relationship than we originally thought.
Soto: It was awful, y'all.
This is the biggest mystery, the biggest
That I've known here in abilene.
- Good morning, guys. - How you doing?
- Morning. - Good, good.
Siegler: We're building a strong circumstantial evidence case
Against billye brown for the murders of susanna
And her eight-year-old daughter, francesca.
But if billye is our killer,
We still have two hurdles we have to overcome--
These rumors of other individuals
Being around her house
And his alibi that he was at work.
Hey, I wanted to touch base with you
About the case back from 1982. Do you remember that?
Siegler: During the initial investigation,
This neighbor, who was a witness, was hypnotized
In the hopes to see if maybe there was more
She could remember about seeing those men
Hanging around susanna's house that night.
Okay. Were they standing by the house?
Were they conversating with somebody? Do you recall?
So you just saw the gentleman out front.
You don't know anything about the actual murder, the homicide?
I do appreciate it.
- You're welcome. - All right. Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
I think she was in the area at some point,
Sees a bunch of guys and is just like,
"oh, these guys are hanging out."
So when the police get to her
And they ask, "hey, what do you know?"
"I don't know. I saw this thing."
I mean, she clearly knows absolutely nothing
About this murder.
"well, I don't even know if it was a gunshot."
We don't even know what night she's really talking about.
Well, like you said, lesa, she's just referencing.
It could have been a gunshot. It could have been a stabbing.
- She has no idea. - Not a clue.
She didn't even hear about it afterwards surprisingly.
The problem with hypnotized, the courts have ruled,
The only way anything is admissible
Is if the witness or report
Can accurately reflect what they saw and knew
Before they were hypnotized versus after.
And she can't, and the reports don't.
Investigative techniques have evolved a lot over the years.
One thing that's a lot clearer today
Is that the use of hypnosis in old cases
Created way more problems than it ever helped.
It is not used anywhere today, or it shouldn't be.
So hypnosis is better used in a vegas ballroom
Than it is in a courtroom.
I think you just need to blow it all off.
It's just a rabbit trail that turned into a bigger mess.
So josie worked for nucorp in 1981,
And during that time, she met billye brown.
While working at nucorp,
Billye brown had an affair with josie landeros,
Which susanna found out about
In the months prior to her murder.
Are you josie?
- Yes. Come in. - Hey, I'm jeff.
Hodgkins: Billye's time card shows
That he worked from 5:00 p.M. To 3:00 a.M.
The evidence shows that the murder occurred
During that time frame.
So for billye brown to have committed these murders,
He must have left work at some point.
We don't have surveillance cameras
Or cell phone records to check,
But maybe josie can tell us
If he could have slipped away unnoticed.
I had dated that billye brown just a few times.
And he had a girlfriend.
Why were y'all not compatible?
Oh, gotcha. Gotcha.
And you met him at work, is that correct?
- Hodgkins: At nucorp. - Landeros: Yeah.
Hodgkins: Was there security in the parking lot or anything
When you left, or you could just go out,
Get in your car, and just drive off?
- Not somebody checking ids. - No, no. None of that.
So you could come and go as you went--as you wanted.
Okay.
So not real tight management.
Mm-mmm.
And you guys clocked in, clocked out. Correct?
- Mm-hmm. - Okay. All right.
Did anyone ever clock in or clock out for their coworkers?
Cowan: Referring to billye brown.
Okay.
Josie just told us that the work environment at nucorp was lax.
And she's not the only former employee
That's given us that information.
And we've talked to lots of folks
That kind of spoke of nucorp being pretty lax.
People would kind of come and go there.
It was probably loose.
That structure, that was more like too loose.
So maybe it should have been more regulated, more regimented.
People could venture off the job.
People could possibly leave.
Hodgkins: Based on this information,
It's entirely possible that billye could have clocked in,
Left for a long break,
Driven 18 minutes to his house, committed the murders,
Driven 18 minutes back and clocked out
Maybe without anyone even noticing.
Up until this point, we knew that he had the motive
And the means, and now it appears he had
The opportunity to commit this crime as well.
That could be right there, game changer.
This is the part where the nerves start setting in.
We'll just go and park over there in his neighborhood,
Probably a few houses down from where he's living,
And wait for him to get home.
It's time to confront our suspect
In the 41-year-old murders of susanna
And her eight-year-old daughter, francesca.
That suspect is her common-law husband, billye brown.
Montgomery: I'm gonna give him every opportunity to talk to us.
Tell him basically, we're working for him.
We're trying to solve the murder
Of his wife and his stepdaughter.
Siegler: We've heard about susanna
And billye's volatile relationship.
We've also been able to poke holes in his alibi.
But most importantly,
The semen in susanna's mouth matches billye brown.
If he can't explain why it's there,
That could be the key to this whole case.
Montgomery: This is him right here.
Hodgkins: Oh. Garage door. Garage door.
- How you doing? - Good. How are you?
Hey, I'm shawn montgomery. I'm with the police department.
- This is lesa. - Hey.
We're wanting to talk to you about susie and cha cha.
Oh. Oh. Oh. Flores.
Stay here so we can hear.
And y'all were married at the time, right?
Common law. 'cause she took your name.
- Y'all got along? - We got along fine.
I messed up one time. I partied one time and didn't come home.
And she came and put dirt in my gas tank
'cause she was mad at me.
I go home and she was afraid that I'm gonna be real mad.
So she called police and I left, and I'm back home the next day.
So back then, were you a jealous person?
I didn't like, uh--
Like clubbing a lot and stuff like that.
What about if she had people over,
Like, while you went to work? Were you okay with that?
I guess.
Siegler: He describes her life as hunky-dory and wonderful.
- No problems with anything. - No.
Hodgkins: Was susan ever pregnant and had a miscarriage?
Susan had an abortion.
Montgomery: Did she go to the hospital
After she had the abortion?
Hodgkins: Bleeding or anything? Like vaginal bleeding?
- You know what I mean? - I don't know.
- I don't think so. - Okay.
That day. And you went to work at 5:00
And work until 3:00, right?
- 3 a.M., I believe. - Yeah.
I can tell you, I called her on my break.
We all got a break about 10 p.M.
- Hodgkins: You talked to her? - Yeah.
Okay. She seemed okay? Didn't tell you anybody was over?
- Didn't seem anything... - Seemed same every night
When I called. Nothing different.
Well, you would stop home sometimes during your break.
No. It's too far away.
It's 15-to-18-minute drive.
How am I gonna do it on my break?
I only got 30 minutes.
Hodgkins: Never left the facility on break?
On break, I don't think I ever did.
- You don't think you did? - I don't think.
That was 40 years ago, ma'am.
So people would go in and out of the gate at break time.
Brown: Not billye.
- Not billye. - No, not billye.
But I don't think I ever left at 10:00
Because we had from 10:00 to 10:30
And we were back on our machines.
And we had a time clock.
Hodgkins: But we know that people would clock in
And clock out for each other.
I wouldn't do that. I never clocked anybody out
And I never had anybody clock me out.
See, listen to how good he sounds right now.
He's not nervous. He's not shaking.
The longer he talks, the more comfortable he's getting.
Well, the problem is is that your alibi is work.
And we know that you can come and go from nucorp.
Nucorp was lax about their policies.
People would check people in and check people out.
You could have left work for an hour,
Still look clocked in and had time to do this.
So you're gonna fit 36 minutes of driving time...
Hodgkins: Mm-hmm.
...And a double murder into one hour.
- Hodgkins: You could do it. - Wow.
And then go back to work
And like, "hey, nothing. Hey." come on.
That right there. If they said to me,
I was like, "you know what? You can ---- yourself.
I'm out of here. I didn't do this. I'm done."
An innocent man's not sitting, getting beat up, beat up.
- Now they're accusing him. - Yeah.
Montgomery: Was y'all's sex life good?
- Yeah. - No complaints
- From either one of y'all? - No.
Hodgkins: How did susan feel about oral sex? Giving it.
She didn't mind. I wasn't very fond of it.
So you guys weren't big into that or anything?
- No. No. - Okay.
I don't care for oral sex.
Well, you're about the only man on this planet
That don't care for that.
[chuckles]
When was the last time
That you had sexual intercourse with her?
It probably would have been fairly recent.
Can you say definitely not that night?
- The night I went to work? - Yeah.
I can say no that night.
I've never been in the need performing oral sex on women.
- [chuckles] - okay. Okay.
Billye brown is saying
That they definitely did not have sex the day of the murder,
But that is not what the dna says.
That is huge. He may be a smooth talker,
But how is he gonna talk his way out of this?
- I got a question. - Okay.
Susan is lying there dead and your sperm is in her mouth.
- That's not mine. - Yes, it is.
- No, it's not mine. - Absolutely is.
No, it is not mine. No, it is not mine. No.
- It is not mine. - And the lab says it's yours.
No. If your dna says that, your dna has been concocted.
- Can't be mine. - I'm asking you to explain it,
And you're not giving me an explanation
Other than going, "nope, that can't be true."
You're pointing at me like I'm the guy.
There is evidence that you are the guy.
You say so, yes. I say no.
I can't tell you when the last time we had any sex.
I'm sorry, but I know damn well
It wasn't in between my shift anywhere.
I did not leave work.
There's no reason for it to be there.
- Did you kill susan? - No.
- Did you kill francesca? - No.
If you see "killer" anywhere standing here,
Then you need a new job.
All right, mr. Brown, I appreciate you talking to us.
- Okay? - Yes, sir.
I don't think that mr. Brown did anything
To help himself in this situation.
I don't think he said anything
That makes us second-guess him as the main suspect.
And the fact that his sperm is in her mouth,
That's gonna be hard for him to explain
When he just says it never happened.
He wants to convince you that he's not the guy.
Doesn't matter what evidence. If there's evidence
That points to him, no, that's not real evidence.
Siegler: When we put together everything that we found out--
New, old and otherwise-- and look up here at the board
And we go back to when we first talked about the case,
What are y'all thinking?
After everything that we've learned,
It's time for us to sit down and discuss
Who we think is involved in the murder
Of francesca and susanna.
Starting on "unknown."
I think going through the crime scene
And all those things that we learned,
Kind of take that unknown, random, intruder burglar.
I think we've debunked that pretty well.
'cause, specifically, what are you thinking?
The no-force entry, the no rummaging.
- Nothing taken. - Nothing taken.
There was no drawers open,
Like people were rummaging through things.
Good point.
And the girl hypnotized back then
Didn't tell the same story anyway.
She didn't remember nothing.
It's like it's a non-starter.
Are you good with taking this off the board?
- Yes, ma'am. - You?
- Lesa? - Yes, ma'am.
So, all that being said, we get right back over here.
What would be the things you'd wanna point out?
He was extremely jealous, possessive.
He liked to control her.
He wanted to know where she was, what she was doing at all times.
- All right. - I think part of the control
Was also to control who she was around
And who she was allowed to be around.
Yeah.
He came home I guess unexpectedly.
She rushed me out the gate. I have to go now.
Why is she so scared?
That's how much control and jealousy he had.
- That's right. - And then remember,
Your challenge was what do you do about the nucorp alibi?
- And you addressed it. - Yeah.
It was believed to be airtight out there at nucorp,
And that is not the case.
And then we get to y'all's interview 41 years later.
I mean, where do you wanna start?
He thinks he's believable
Because he's had 41 years of telling the same story.
- Everything was hunky-dory. - Yeah.
And what did he tell you about their sex life?
Well, we specifically asked about the oral sex,
And according to him, that never happened
Because he doesn't like it.
And then y'all asked him specifically
But what about on the day of, on that Monday.
And he said no.
Can you say definitely not that night?
- The night I went to work? - Yeah.
I can say no that night. Yeah.
Why would he double down on something that's so provable?
- Doesn't make any sense. - It doesn't make any sense.
You have dna in her mouth.
- Yeah. - You're there.
So, what's your plan with all this evidence?
Present this to the da's office, and I'm gonna ask
For an arrest warrant for first-degree felony murder
For susan flores brown and francesca martinez.
From what we've found thus far, I feel good.
I feel really good.
- You can sell it? - I think so.
All the evidence points to billye brown,
And this case will never get any better.
You owe it to susan, and you owe it to francesca
To put this in front of the court.
- Go sell it. - All right. Will do.
Good luck, gentlemen.
When I met linda and rita back in 2020, it was very apparent
That this case has affected them over the years.
It's very--just heart wrenching.
Hello, ladies. Nice to see y'all.
Cowan: So I've put a lot of pressure on myself
To be able to go them and tell them we know who did this,
We can prove it, and we're going to arrest this individual.
Let me introduce everybody. This is detective montgomery.
- Hi. How are you doing? - Nice to meet you.
Assistant chief jordan.
- Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet y'all.
I know this investigation has ups and downs.
I never thought in a million years
I'd be sitting here in this room
To be able to share this good news.
Spoke to da's office,
And we're gonna seek an arrest warrant for billye brown.
Wow.
[sobbing]
Finally. Oh, my god. Finally.
I didn't have my hopes up 'cause it's been so long,
And I just thought there's no way they can do this.
It's been 41 years.
And to hear this news, it's just--
It's just unbelievable. It's like a dream.
I'm gonna go visit their graveside and let them know
So they can rest in peace now.
I thought about it every day for 41 years.
It's the last thing I think about at night
And the first thing I think about in the morning
Are those two beautiful girls.
- Thank you so much. - Absolutely.
Now, finally, maybe you're gonna get justice for both of 'em.
- Yeah. - Oh, my gosh.
I'm gonna give you a hug.
So nice to meet you and bring you good news.
It feels so good to be able to tell linda and rita
After all these years that they can finally get justice
For their sister and their niece.
[sobbing]
You know what? I knew it.
[siren blaring]
What's up, man?
Siegler: On October the 27th of 2023,
Taylor county adas erin stamey and arimy beasley
Issued an arrest warrant against billye brown
For two charges of murder.