Hi. My name is Mark Goffman. I'm executive producer, showrunner
for Sleepy Hollow, and this is Episode 209, "Mama."
Hi, this is Nicole Beharie. I play Abbie Mills.
Mama?
WOMAN: (SINGING) When skies are gray
BEHARIE: This first section we actually shot for another episode initially,
with a different actress.
- Do you remember that? - Yeah, this was...
BEHARIE: We shot something for Episode 207 or something like that.
GOFFMAN: This was actually in the premiere.
That was part of the very first episode.
But we found it as just a really good way to start this episode
and to get us into the whole story about Abbie and her mother.
BEHARIE: Well, there you go. GOFFMAN: Yeah.
And it just happened that my 4-year-old son at the time
was learning You Are My Sunshine.
- So, we ended up using that song. - (BOTH CHUCKLE)
BEHARIE: The cool thing about this is Tom is playing sick,
but actually, in real time, he had a little bit of a burnout.
- He got sick in real life. - Yeah.
BEHARIE: And it was kind of fun to have a little parallel situation going on
in both of our lives with this episode.
GOFFMAN: Yeah. BEHARIE: He got a little break.
GOFFMAN: He did. Well, we didn't.
(LAUGHS) We had about two days to rewrite the episode.
BEHARIE: Yeah, we had to keep working.
GOFFMAN: (LAUGHS) But... BEHARIE: Exactly.
But he got a little break. He got to go back home.
GOFFMAN: I remember calling you and saying,
"Yeah, we're gonna have to lean on you a little heavier in this one."
BEHARIE: Oh, it was fine. It was fun.
He's very, very funny in this one.
And she's singing this song she used to sing
to Jenny and me when we were kids.
BEHARIE: I've actually caught bits and pieces of the episodes.
This is my first time watching the whole thing.
GOFFMAN: Oh, wow.
Moloch sent his emissaries to torment her...
GOFFMAN: Well, I think it turned out really well.
BEHARIE: I'll be the judge of that. (LAUGHS)
GOFFMAN: Well, I thought your performance was fantastic.
BEHARIE: We'll see how this goes. We got the cell phone in the back pocket.
- Oh, that's why it's there. - (LAUGHS)
Bam! 'Cause it's about to ring.
- GOFFMAN: Yep. - It's like, "Why is my cell phone there?"
BEHARIE: There we go.
I'll come with you.
BEHARIE: Aw, how adorable. GOFFMAN: Mmm-hmm.
He's insisting to come, but you know better.
It's quiet time now.
(GOFFMAN CHUCKLES)
BEHARIE: Look at that. This is the most gorgeous set, really.
It's one of my favorite rooms to work in.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, it was one of the first ones that Alec Hammond put together
when we moved to Wilmington after doing the pilot.
And it's just been such a home base.
BEHARIE: This is one of my favorite actresses on this show, Sakina Jaffrey.
- Also on House of Cards. - GOFFMAN: Yeah, she's terrific.
I thought this was nice, the way it's sort of an opening
for a different relationship between the two of you guys.
Considering where we'd started the season.
That she killed herself in that hospital.
BEHARIE: Absolutely. And she has a lot of mystery.
She knows a great deal about the character, Abbie.
Abbie's not even aware of.
...you wouldn't have given me a moment's peace.
BEHARIE: She's very grounded.
And she's my height, so I don't have to look up.
- That's always very nice. - (GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
I appreciate that.
GOFFMAN: It's really fun watching the two of you together.
- Then back to Tarrytown Psychiatric. - BEHARIE: Abbie and Jenny. Yay.
Like you said, nobody knows Tarrytown Psych better than me.
BEHARIE: Tarrytown is where Jenny's been living for a while.
I need that kind of insight.
Look, just be careful exactly what you're looking for.
This place is full of so much pain.
GOFFMAN: What were your first thoughts about this episode,
and going back to Tarrytown Psychiatric and digging into the story
of Abbie's mother's suicide?
Hello there.
BEHARIE: I mean, I was excited about it.
I didn't know necessarily... Being on the television show,
we don't necessarily know what the plans are with the writers.
So, I learned just as much about my character
as, I think, maybe the audience did.
It's fascinating to me the way you guys just developed
not only this character over here, this woman, very scary lady,
but also Abbie's mother coming into the mix.
It all made a lot of sense.
But yeah, we had very little time to prepare for this, 'cause you sort of wrote it...
- GOFFMAN: Yeah. - ...and then we did it
- within a few days. - (BOTH LAUGH)
So, there wasn't a lot of time to consider how I felt about it.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, it went through a couple iterations.
Damian Kindler is the author of the episode,
and we had to do a fairly substantial rewrite
when we needed to write Tom out, or Crane out, of a lot of it, to adjust.
But that's the way production goes.
IRVING: He'd found God.
Organized the hospital prayer group. Just doesn't track for me.
None of these suicides seem motivated.
BEHARIE: This is one of the stiller episodes as well.
As far as the cinematography, it's very grounded. I'm digging it.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, it has a very deliberate pacing.
And I think it's one of...
To me, it was one of the scariest episodes we did all season.
BEHARIE: Oh! We had the weeping lady, though, right?
GOFFMAN: Yeah.
BEHARIE: I really liked that one. I loved that monster.
GOFFMAN: Oh, yeah. BEHARIE: I liked that one.
GOFFMAN: But this one just had, I don't know, there's a creep factor.
BEHARIE: Look at Orlando trying to be nasty.
(GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
Yeah, 'cause it's actually doing the, sort of, thriller thing.
You know, it's slowly building. We generally come in with a wallop.
ABBIE: We're gonna get you out of here.
We'll find a way to undo whatever Henry did to your soul.
BEHARIE: Lyndie is one of the funniest, bubbliest, naughtiest girls in this show.
She has the most
aggressive stance constantly.
I'm like, "Look at that grimace."
It's so funny, 'cause she's not like that at all.
- Good work. - (GOFFMAN CHUCKLES)
Man, there was nowhere we could go in here without being watched.
I can't imagine what it was like for you.
You learn to deal with the abuse...
BEHARIE: This set that we were working on was actually very creepy, though.
And it had been there for a while as well. I think there were plans to use it, right?
- Some of it. - GOFFMAN: Yeah, that's right.
BEHARIE: Or maybe you guys had used it
for scenes that Lyndie had shot, I'm assuming.
GOFFMAN: Yeah. We had actually built most of it for this episode, really gearing up.
But then we had plans for...
Since Irving's character was in the Tarrytown Psychiatric at one point,
we were talking about an episode really featuring him.
And so, we had built out a decent amount of Tarrytown Psychiatric.
And we needed it for this episode 'cause there are so many different elements.
We needed the old area to show the flashbacks like this.
We needed the newer area where Jenny was.
So, you know, we were really lucky.
And we have an amazing production designer and production team
that just put together a very cool set.
This case is not going to change what happened to Mom.
BEHARIE: I met the young ladies that played young Abbie and Jenny,
and they were so good.
I can't remember their names off the top of my head.
I never got to work with them. But they were really lovely. Super excited.
One of my favorite things about this episode
was actually working with Aunjanue Ellis...
GOFFMAN: Oh, yeah.
BEHARIE:...who played Mama Mills.
- (BEHARIE CHUCKLES) - GOFFMAN: Yeah.
...but now knowing
what she was facing...
GOFFMAN: One of the challenges with the girls is
we cast them when they were 12.
And that is a real period of growth.
So we were concerned over the course of the season
that they were going to end up looking completely different.
BEHARIE: Mmm-hmm.
Yeah, okay.
- Okay. - (COMPUTER BEEPING)
Found it.
BEHARIE: Well, these are different girls from the initial episodes.
- Yeah, these are different actresses. - Mmm-hmm.
BEHARIE: Oh, now, that's a bit dark. Come on, Sleepy Hollow.
- Come on. - GOFFMAN: (CHUCKLES) We had to do it.
BEHARIE: That's what's different about this episode, I think.
- GOFFMAN: Yeah. - You actually say there's, like, danger.
It's endangering other people. Not just the team, you know?
GOFFMAN: Yeah. And, I mean, the subject matter is dealing with suicide.
Whether it's forced by demons or not.
Back from the grave.
- BEHARIE: Ah! - (GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
BEHARIE: Uh-oh! Don't we just love that? GOFFMAN: Yeah.
(THEME MUSIC PLAYING)
BEHARIE: I remember the first time I heard this.
- I think Damian played it for me. - GOFFMAN: Mmm-hmm? Oh, wow.
BEHARIE: It's really beautiful. GOFFMAN: Yeah, it is.
Brian Tyler and Robert, they really did a fantastic job with it.
Our titles credits were just... They're always moving.
I always get excited when I hear it.
CRANE: Are you certain it was her?
ABBIE: Jenny took the video to be analyzed by an imaging expert.
BEHARIE: (CHUCKLES) Matt Barr.
It's definitely Mom.
This is the first episode I wore a middle part in my hair.
- GOFFMAN: Really? Wow. - (BEHARIE LAUGHS)
BEHARIE: Completely frivolous information. Yeah.
- GOFFMAN: Was that your doing? - Yeah, we had a new hair stylist.
- I think we had some issues with humidity. - GOFFMAN: Oh, okay. Okay.
BEHARIE: And she was like, "What if we do a center part?"
Well, those medications are for delusions.
BEHARIE: So now Tom and I are sort of wearing the same look.
GOFFMAN: Got it.
This was shot in September of last year.
BEHARIE: September in North Carolina is still hot as hell.
I was just a kid. At the time, she seemed crazy.
Mama, we're home.
ABBIE: She wasn't full-time at the hospital yet,
just getting treatment as an outpatient.
- Don't forget to lock that door. - Okay.
ABBIE: But you never knew what version of her you would get.
You lock the door?
GOFFMAN: Yeah, this was also a great location they found for this house.
You took the bus. No buses!
BEHARIE: It's so creepy.
Just the route I showed you right through town, you hear?
We just wanted to talk to some friends.
BEHARIE: Aunjanue, don't yell at them.
They may even be your so-called friends.
These demons have no mercy.
BEHARIE: The thing I like about this story is that they have a lot of...
Jenny and Abbie, in their adult lives,
have a lot of resentment towards each other.
GOFFMAN: Mmm-hmm.
BEHARIE: And totally different stories about who their mother was.
And this sort of helps to clarify...
GOFFMAN: Yeah, they had completely different experiences with the mother.
How was working with Wendey Stanzler, the director of this episode?
BEHARIE: Oh, she was lovely, she was lovely. She was very patient.
Yeah, it was during a time of the year where everyone was falling ill.
We were all getting really sick.
And she was just really patient
and let us find things within the confines of television.
(LAUGHS) You know?
...demons tormented her into taking her own life...
BEHARIE: That little steam box that he was using was real.
So, there were a few takes that, like, burnt poor Tom's face.
(GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
BEHARIE: We had to... We had to keep cutting
'cause it was just supposed to be a fake foam-steam thing happening.
And it was kind of, like, actually producing heat.
GOFFMAN: Well, that's Sleepy Hollow.
- (DOOR OPENS) - HAWLEY: The doctor has arrived.
As ordered...
BEHARIE: Matt Barr.
...maps and books from your cabin, plus a little dose of cure from...
- BEHARIE: Very handsome levity. - Mmm-hmm. (LAUGHS)
You called Hawley for help.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, at this point, your relationship with him was still evolving.
BEHARIE: Yeah.
The relationship between Crane and Hawley was always very interesting.
'Cause, you know, Crane has always been surrounded by all these women.
So it's sort of easy for him to be the masculine guiding force.
With the introduction of Hawley, it's fun to see him go toe-to-toe with another guy,
- who knows just as much as he does. - Yeah.
GOFFMAN: Exactly. Someone who's got his own expertise
and is more versed in the modern world.
...somewhat comforting.
GOFFMAN: (CHUCKLES) Of course, bringing matzo ball soup is a Damian Kindler idea.
BEHARIE: And Matt Barr, the actor that played Hawley,
was also a delight to work with.
GOFFMAN: Oh, that's great. BEHARIE: Really was. Really was.
We'd have a lot of little moments on set.
Little moments that didn't quite make it to the cut.
But even if you see with the matzo ball soup,
we had a little look towards one another,
and there was a lot of that, it's very good stuff.
He may have conjured her to prey upon our resolve.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, he was up for anything. It was really fun.
Well, it was no easy assignment she took on.
Assassinating a newly-born demon of the Apocalypse.
I just meant that we haven't heard from her.
What do you suggest, Lieutenant? That we seek her out?
Expose her as a spy to our enemies?
BEHARIE: Crane is getting so testy. Testy.
He'll be fine after he sleeps.
- (GOFFMAN LAUGHS) - I'm coming with you back to Tarrytown.
GOFFMAN: That's what happens when you're a little under the weather, right?
Look, I heard about what you found on that video.
I got to get back.
Yeah, I'm just... You know, with Mr. Woodhouse here
- down for a round, I thought... - ABBIE: Mr. Woodhouse?
I didn't realize you were a Jane Austen fan.
Nor would I have pegged you for one, either.
I'm just saying, I'm... You know, I'm happy to chip in.
BEHARIE: This show is cracking me up. GOFFMAN: Yes.
BEHARIE: You have time for Jane Austen references in the midst of...
GOFFMAN: Yep. BEHARIE: You guys are amazing.
(BOTH LAUGH)
GOFFMAN: I just... I thought it would be a fun, outside-the-box reference
for both characters, you know.
BEHARIE: Right. I like it. GOFFMAN: Oh, good.
And we needed to get a little bit of time for Crane to fall asleep there.
For that soup to wear... Have its effect.
HENRY: "A little more than kin, and less than kind."
BEHARIE: Ugh!
The words of a son longing for...
GOFFMAN: Little demon baby.
BEHARIE: Oh, these two just creep me out. GOFFMAN: Yeah.
GOFFMAN: Oh, John Noble.
You got to work with him quite a bit this season.
BEHARIE: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, towards the end of the season.
Quite a bit of fighting.
Katia as well.
The presence of a needy child upsets you?
My, how telling.
That is not what I meant. I...
GOFFMAN: The storyline between these two and Abbie and Crane really picks up
towards the end of the season.
Here, it's kind of on sort of a slow burn.
I wish only great things.
Come.
BEHARIE: I love the magic, that he has this ability to make her see
what she wants to see.
GOFFMAN: Yeah.
BEHARIE: It's such a wonderful, devilish gift to give him.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, well, it's really supposed to reflect
the idea that she has so much guilt over her son,
and there, now she's looking at
what should be Moloch,
and yet it appears to her as the son she never was able to take care of,
- that she had to give up. - Mmm.
BEHARIE: Where'd you find the creepy baby, though?
It's such a creepy-looking baby.
(BOTH LAUGHING)
BEHARIE: Is that mean to say? GOFFMAN: Hey, that's...
- Yeah, now, it's creepy-looking. - BEHARIE: Ahhh! There we go.
(GOFFMAN CHUCKLES)
BEHARIE: Aw...
GOFFMAN: But, again, those sets are just...
That was the Fredericks Manor set. So creepy.
We spent a lot of time there this season.
...possess the maternal instinct after all.
BEHARIE: You know, Wendey, I think she did a really lovely job with this scene.
It's just, like, the stillness allows you to feel
that there's so much going on.
I mean, we are staking out a killer ghost.
ABBIE: Who also happens to be our mother.
We need to stop her from hurting other people, maybe help her.
This place turned her into a monster.
We need to send her back before she kills anyone else.
We don't know the full story. That's why we're here.
I just want to put her to rest.
Look, guys, they're not mutually exclusive, okay?
We can stop her and maybe help her find some peace.
BEHARIE: Where are all the people working at this place?
GOFFMAN: They had to clear out for you guys.
(BOTH LAUGH)
GOFFMAN: And, you know, Tarrytown Psychiatric is a bit of a magical place, so...
(WHISPERING VOICES)
- Walt, Walt. - WALT: No!
HAWLEY: There you go.
- WALT: No! I need to die! - Hey, hey!
Shh. There you go.
(WALT SOBBING)
HAWLEY: Hey, it's okay. I got you.
BEHARIE: Yeah, it's pretty heavy.
GOFFMAN: Yeah.
Abbie?
BEHARIE: And it begins. Ahhh!
- Always getting yanked somewhere. - (GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
BEHARIE: Poor Abbie. GOFFMAN: Yep.
To the really scary part of Tarrytown.
As if that wasn't scary enough.
BEHARIE: So, I forget, is this the flashback, or is this like another dimension of it?
This is just the haunted sector.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, this is the haunted section of...
The part where it's closed down.
(EXCLAIMS)
But it's where her mom was kept.
BEHARIE: Yeah, that's probably in... Yeah, that's definitely my worst nightmare.
(LAUGHS)
That's horrible.
GOFFMAN: Was it scary for you to perform,
and, like, do you, when you were in this area...
BEHARIE: No.
No, we're like... Our trailers, it's like beautiful outside,
and you got to come in here and pretend that it's dark and scary.
And then you're doing your stunts over and over again, you know.
I did really want to try to get through those stunts.
GOFFMAN: Yeah. You did all of those, right?
BEHARIE: Yeah. They're not, like, massive, but...
GOFFMAN: Still, you're thrown around.
BEHARIE: And this hallway was definitely very scary.
I thought that there was someone here.
Oh. I... I don't think so.
It's this place. It can,
well, do things to you.
- Are you okay? - Yes, thank you.
You don't look okay.
BEHARIE: She loved to give hugs, that one.
(GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
- GOFFMAN: I didn't know that. - (BEHARIE CHUCKLES)
GOFFMAN: That's why we cast her.
I'm gonna find my way out.
Abbie?
HAWLEY: Oh.
- I'll take the south wing. - Okay, great, I'll take the east.
Mills!
BEHARIE: You don't separate once you go into the haunted...
GOFFMAN: Yeah, it's a pretty hard-and-fast rule.
BEHARIE: Oh... See, I haven't seen this part. Oh, no.
Yeah, I love the way that was shot, with the Steadicam turned around.
ABBIE: Jenny!
Oh, Abbie. Thank God.
- You okay? - I'm fine.
What happened?
BEHARIE: That's a weird little run I did there.
Can we please... Can we take it back?
What was that?
ABBIE: "TPRJLM12."
GOFFMAN: And that's all a visual effect. None of that was actually on the window.
It's added in post.
BEHARIE: And now that I'm watching,
I'm like, we should have added a little element
of feeling the cold.
Since that's some sort of frost-spirit thing. Like, "Oh, we missed that moment."
I didn't think about that.
Ugh!
Again.
(COOING)
GOFFMAN: And Katrina knows what she's supposed to do here.
But she just can't bring herself.
Ugh. That was another, that was a doll, that baby Moloch doll,
- that was creepy. - Mmm-hmm.
BEHARIE: The puppet, yeah.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, the puppet.
BEHARIE: Yeah, the whole team, the prop and, like,
special effects team is really spectacular on this show.
They have very little time, and what they're able to do, you know...
GOFFMAN: Oh, it's amazing. BEHARIE: It's amazing.
They really take care of us and fill out the rest of this world.
GOFFMAN: Yeah. We have creature meetings about every two or three weeks,
and Corey will give us these updates and show sketches. Yeah.
BEHARIE: That I did not know.
Yeah. But the hair and make-up trailer's
always filled with, like, some random guy covered in jelly or goo or...
- Whatever. - (GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
Especially after the note she left.
This note?
It says, "I fought."
I mean, I don't know, is that how you remember it, Abbie?
BEHARIE: Lyndie was so, like, open and, you know, vulnerable
during this section.
It made it very easy to work through these scenes very quickly.
...can help us understand it all more.
I don't know, but we do this together,
like we used to when things got bad.
BEHARIE: A fist bump. Yeah. GOFFMAN: (CHUCKLES) Yeah.
- Head bump. - BEHARIE: Or a head bump. (LAUGHS)
- Okay. - GOFFMAN: I don't think that was scripted.
BEHARIE: I couldn't imagine actually looking at that kind of videotape
of a family member.
What you guys wrote is pretty tough.
They... They followed me here.
GOFFMAN: Yeah. Well, it was effective, I think, again,
because the two of you could do it together.
It would be incredibly hard for one person to do.
- But really, it's just... - BEHARIE: I could do it, get out of here.
- GOFFMAN: Oh, you could, of course. - (LAUGHS)
- BEHARIE: I'm just... - Most mortals, though.
She wants me to do it.
MAN: Who wants you to do it?
Nurse.
The nurse. Lambert.
- Lambert? - She's right about me.
I need to do it.
The nurse we saw this morning was named Lambert.
I need to end my pain.
She was with Walt before he tried to kill himself.
BEHARIE: I wish everyone could see her video was so scary.
MAN: She's a delusion...
BEHARIE: And they had to cut... Oh, there it is.
Ugh.
She's real!
Mama isn't behind those deaths.
LAMBERT: Oh, Frank.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, we decided to intercut this whole section so that we can see...
BEHARIE: Oh, it's great.
...exactly, you know, the effect of this nurse still around
as you guys are watching here, and then she's still plotting her next step.
She knows Irving.
BEHARIE: There was a song that initially was a part of the script or the story
that I don't think is a part of it anymore,
but there's a gospel song that you guys asked me to learn.
- What was it... Go Where I Send Thee? - Yeah.
- I think it was called at the time. - GOFFMAN: Yeah, exactly.
BEHARIE: And, you know, we didn't end up using it.
Funnily enough, Aunjanue knew the song, and I mentioned it to her,
so then I just had like an instant connection.
Sometimes it's just little things that make you feel like, you know...
GOFFMAN: Mmm-hmm. BEHARIE: It's a very old song.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, that was the initial song that we had...
The idea was, in that opening dream sequence,
we were gonna play Go Where I Send Thee and it would help sort of just guide
the scene through, but we...
You Are My Sunshine just seemed like a more effective song, so...
This part... This actually, this scene, we ended up...
There was a much longer take of it in the first cut.
- BEHARIE: (GROANING) Oh, God, no. - And yeah, we had to cut it way down.
'Cause it became just way too scary for everybody
and hard to watch.
BEHARIE: Very hard to watch. We love Orlando.
Get out! I need to die!
BEHARIE: Oh, God!
(IRVING COUGHING)
BEHARIE: I remember, when we were in that room, we really felt like a team.
'Cause he was not, like, you know, hopping out of the water.
We all had to run in, and we're waiting in the wings to come in,
there was water all over the floor,
so we really had to, like, navigate and stay up
without falling over.
But we felt like a team, we had to really work together
to sort of get him out of the water.
GOFFMAN: Oh, that's great.
BEHARIE: Yeah, it was fantastic.
It was really, really a treat to be working with Matt and Lyndie.
How are you feeling, Captain?
I've been better.
GOFFMAN: Well, especially having Irving there,
just seeing the four of you guys together on screen felt like a team.
Then everything she started telling me about taking my own life,
it just made sense.
And suicide seemed like the only thing to do.
The tox report shows that
you were under the influence of psychotropic drugs.
Opened your mind to suggestion.
Especially with demonic influence.
Demonic?
- Who is she? - I don't know yet.
I've got to figure that out, but she's someone we're gonna stop.
I want to help.
But they're gonna think I'm a suicide risk...
BEHARIE: I remember one thing.
The Twittersphere went crazy
about Orlando potentially hurting himself during this night.
I think we were working when it was on the air,
but I remember that.
People went pretty crazy about this episode,
especially when he did what he did.
GOFFMAN: Yeah. We knew it was gonna come to
a good place at the end of the episode,
but it was still one of those things, that during, is hard to...
Hard to justify.
BEHARIE: And you've created so many complicated relationships
with Orlando's family.
First with his daughter being, what was it, possessed last year?
And now this is the first time you actually see him in harm's way,
you know, and so vulnerable with Abbie.
- I thought that was really special. - GOFFMAN: Yeah.
BEHARIE: And it was a great setup for where we go by the end of this season.
I think this is Mom trying to stop this demon from killing other people.
Her final note said, "I fought."
What if this is her, still fighting?
GOFFMAN: Well, we were trying to foreshadow what happens
in the middle of the season.
And then the idea is when he came back after he was resurrected,
that he really had, like, a full new lease on life
and he was untethered in a way that he wasn't before.
He could really shed the skin of being the police captain
and become his own man.
So by the end of the season, we really set up
that now he's ready, you know,
to be free and find himself as a hero.
Jenny.
But it was a long, painful journey for him.
(CHUCKLES) He was under Moloch's
and then Henry's possession for most of the season.
BEHARIE: I love this concept in this particular scene
that while she was locked up,
she was somewhat of an artist. We actually had to do this.
Like, days later, we all had blisters on our hands and all that stuff.
It was actually a lot of fun ripping that down.
GOFFMAN: Oh, cool. BEHARIE: But the undertone
that like, you know, "Mom was an artist" kind of thing...
Like a, you know...
She had the ability to express herself, but just in a very strange way.
I don't know if you guys thought of it that way,
but that's what I did.
GOFFMAN: No, we did, and we called it the Beautiful Mind sequence
of just filling the entire wall.
BEHARIE: Poor Matt, he was like,
"What the hell am I doing here? This is really awkward."
(GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
That song.
BEHARIE: And so that was an homage to your little one, huh?
You Are My Sunshine, she was just learning it.
GOFFMAN: Yeah. I try to... Every once in a while, we put those elements in.
You know, you want to find something personal
- that you relate to in every episode. - Absolutely.
GOFFMAN: And it helps keep it emotional for us,
and hopefully then you guys can find it better, too.
Do you like it, Mama?
MAN ON RADIO: (SINGING) You'll never know, dear
How much I love you
It's beautiful, baby.
Please don't take my sunshine away
What's that smell?
GOFFMAN: This flashback was all 100% Damian's idea.
He really wanted to show
that Jenny had this very different experience.
BEHARIE: Mmm-hmm.
We gotta get out of here.
BEHARIE: Yeah, that kind of stuff I can't watch.
I'm actually very sensitive to that kind of stuff.
LORI: You're not safe.
(GASPS)
I'll be damned.
Mama.
We know about Lambert...
GOFFMAN: Was this one of the earlier scenes that you shot with Aunjanue?
It's the only way to stop her.
BEHARIE: Earlier? GOFFMAN: Yeah.
BEHARIE: I don't remember... I can't remember the sequence necessarily.
No, 'cause we only really had that... We just had the two scenes.
GOFFMAN: Yeah.
BEHARIE: It feels like more because of all the flashbacks, right?
There's the sense of her being there.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, it really does, 'cause they're consistent throughout.
BEHARIE: But we only... I only got to work with her twice during this and then the...
GOFFMAN: Right, and then the final scene.
LORI: No! LAMBERT: They're mine.
No, no! No!
No, you have to get out of here!
GOFFMAN: It's so frenetic.
BEHARIE: Yes, it is.
- Oy! - (GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
BEHARIE: Now, that was a mess.
They had me in like this strange harness thing and pulled me out.
I was thinking I was gonna be, like, flying through the air.
And it just looks like I tripped. (LAUGHS)
GOFFMAN: So they put you in a harness and then what, they pull you with a rope?
- Is that how it works? - BEHARIE: Yeah.
Yeah, we've done quite a bit of harness work on this show.
It's one of the more exciting things. The fighting and the...
Some of the stunts.
And there was this lovely mattress waiting for me.
Oy...
Like mother, like daughter.
BEHARIE: Abbie and that gun.
She pulls out this gun for demons all the time.
You're a broken spirit,
needing to be freed from this hellish life.
BEHARIE: Looks uncomfortable.
Don't you want to know peace, too?
GOFFMAN: Yeah. Well, as the season goes on, at least Abbie figured out
that there are special bullets that you can use.
You do not have very nice manners, young lady.
No!
No! No!
This is where they would've kept Mama's stuff.
It's the archive room for the old wing.
Mama's journal would be with her personal effects.
Yo, Jenny.
BEHARIE: You always manage to get a nice mix of history in there.
I was wondering how you were gonna do it with this episode.
'Cause it seemed like it was just gonna be about, you know,
from the mother's trauma
until the Mill sisters are fighting in current times.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, well, it gave us this great opportunity to then,
yeah, to bring up Grace and really to find this journal,
which was the key to the episode.
Because that then leads to the next episode
and the journey to find, you know, the Sword of Methuselah
and then ultimately defeat Moloch with it.
So, we thought that would be a really powerful way to get there,
is that Abbie's mother had this journal all this time.
No small wonder. You have so much troubling you.
Stay away from me!
GOFFMAN: I love how tough Abbie is.
Doesn't matter. Strap her down, doesn't matter.
BEHARIE: Yeah. You're stuck.
Strap me down. Still gonna fight. (LAUGHS)
LORI: Don't leave me in here.
Please don't leave me in here. Please!
Let me out!
LAMBERT: She resisted at first...
BEHARIE: Oh, that sucks. Oh...
GOFFMAN: Yeah. BEHARIE: Terrible.
LAMBERT: Some of us aren't strong enough to bear the burden.
They need an angel of mercy to help them cross over...
BEHARIE: And she was just so believable doing that. Like, she just believed it.
'Cause that... I feel like that could come off really, you know...
A little too on the nose.
And she just delivered that in the most amazing way.
GOFFMAN: Yeah. BEHARIE: You believed her.
GOFFMAN: We read a number of people for the role
and even looked at the costume for it.
We put her in sort of a, you know, a 1950s-era
nurse outfit that just made it, like, just a very sweet, but yet even creepier
because she seemed so innocent.
BEHARIE: So...
So much more sadistic, you guys are... Pearls.
GOFFMAN: (LAUGHS) Yeah.
BEHARIE: Pearls, of all things. GOFFMAN: Right.
We had a long debate about the color of those pills.
BEHARIE: Yeah, I remember this. Wendey loved this. She just loved this.
She was like, "Yeah!
"You take your finger and then you're gonna just make it. It's magic."
She was so excited that it worked. I was like, "Okay."
(BOTH LAUGH)
It was fun to do. Lots of good play.
GOFFMAN: Cool. It just looked really scary.
(CHANTING IN OTHER LANGUAGE)
GOFFMAN: This effect was another one that was, you know, a big combination
of both practical and VFX.
So, I imagine for you guys it's pretty difficult just to, you know...
"Well, here's what is gonna happen when we're finished in post.
"But right now, there's just some wind."
BEHARIE: Mmm-hmm.
I'm not scared of you anymore!
(CONTINUES CHANTING)
BEHARIE: Yeah, when I was shooting it...
I think you can see, there's, like, debris in my hair and stuff.
They were actually throwing things at me.
(BOTH LAUGHING)
And there's, like, a fan, and so, you know...
Now, that we didn't see coming.
Ay, yai, yai.
Incantations.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, but what was cool emotionally is that
it didn't really get to finish the story
between Abbie and her mother.
She hasn't really gotten that closure yet.
So, even though we've now killed Lambert,
there's really, there's still the emotional part to get through.
- She fought for me. - BEHARIE: Mmm-hmm.
She fought for me.
I never got to tell her thank you.
Just wanted to see her one more time.
BEHARIE: This is giving me a panic attack watching it.
(GOFFMAN LAUGHS)
BEHARIE: Jesus Christ.
- Ah! The séance. - GOFFMAN: It's beautiful, yeah.
Thanks for bringing all of this, Crane.
With the help from the sleeping aids Mr. Hawley graciously...
GOFFMAN: That is a pretty amazing mural that they put on the wall.
BEHARIE: It is. It is.
I wasn't expecting it to be that nice, you know.
Or detailed, 'cause after a while, we took the whole thing down,
and like you said, the art team is just amazing on the show.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, Natalie and Shannon, I mean, it was so funny.
Every time we'll write, like, "Oh, there's a document from 1783."
And Io and behold, they come up with something that just is brilliant.
BEHARIE: Again, Lyndie and Matt Barr in this scene, my goodness.
They took it so seriously. I don't know if she, like, did research or, you know...
'Cause Abbie wasn't supposed to know how to have a séance.
GOFFMAN: Right.
BEHARIE: But they were talking about the process and how you put this up
and what you're supposed to be doing.
GOFFMAN: Yeah.
BEHARIE: We didn't end up doing most of it
'cause we had to sort of get to the crux of it.
But that energy was definitely in the space. (CHUCKLES)
GOFFMAN: Wow. So you get in the mindset, and did you do research about séance,
or just relied on...
BEHARIE: No, I mean, I think they did. I think they did, yeah.
Mama.
Yeah. Or they've done them before, you know, they were creepy. (LAUGHS)
Look at what you grew up to be.
You knew all along that I was a Witness?
Yes.
BEHARIE: Oh, I hear violins.
LORI: There are so many things you don't get to choose, Abbie.
GOFFMAN: In this scene, Nicole, really,
I attribute you to coming up
with a lot of what we ended up doing here,
digging deeper and, you know,
having Abbie ask some really pointed questions about,
you know, that her mom knew she was a Witness.
And what could that mean and how can that help her.
Thought that was... We had some really great conversations about the script
as we were going through it.
(GROWLING)
BEHARIE: Yeah. I had forgotten about that.
- Hold on! - (TIRES SCREECHING)
I'd never seen the literal demon in the background before.
GOFFMAN: Yeah. BEHARIE: That's pretty scary.
GOFFMAN: Yeah, another effect from post.
You saved us.
I did.
GOFFMAN: I would imagine that's something that, for you guys,
is pretty hard, or at least harder to do.
I mean, we...
You know, we add so much in post that you're acting to nothing,
or, you know, the director just telling you,
"There's gonna be a ghost over here, in the left corner."
BEHARIE: Yeah.
But that's just a part of it, you know.
I think it's actually something that we enjoy,
to sort of be surprised. Like now, taking it in.
Yes.
ABBIE: I have so many questions.
Moloch may still be here on Earth.
The journal.
It keeps the secrets.
There's a weapon hidden in its pages.
You find it.
You were meant to go further than any of us.
BEHARIE: And we end up using that journal quite a bit for the rest of the seasons.
You don't deserve any of this.
How can we free you from this place?
GOFFMAN: I felt like the journal did become this link between Abbie and her past
that we could always rely on to help
find some of the emotion with both...
It just represented the struggle of her family,
of her mother, her ancestors.
They had all built and led to this place
for her to go further.
BEHARIE: I'm like sobbing.
(WHIMPERING) Oh, no, oh, no.
- GOFFMAN: It was powerful. I was crying. - And then, look at Crane.
BEHARIE: (LAUGHS) Crane is like so... The post got...
Both of the guys are just feeling so awkward.
I just love that.
They're like, "What?
"What have we gotten ourselves into?" Look at him. I love that.
He's like, "I got a break, I came back.
"You're crying. Everyone's crying. Why is this happening?"
GOFFMAN: "What happened while I was gone?"
BEHARIE: Just those little flashes that crack me up.
GOFFMAN: Another scene to be continued.
BEHARIE: This day was a gorgeous day. GOFFMAN: Oh, finally.
BEHARIE: That was a beautiful day.
Frank, what are you doing out here?
Police call it "escaping."
Whatever happened back there with your mom gave me an opportunity.
I took it.
Long as I'm in there, I got a target on my back.
Out here, I got a chance to make things right.
Don't give me that aiding-and-abetting-a-fugitive look, Mills.
You said I could trust you.
BEHARIE: I love that about him.
Now get me out of here.
BEHARIE: And this is such a good setup for what happens later.
Such a good setup for what happens later.
And she really trusts him.
That scene was actually written a little bit longer,
- and we tried it a few different ways, too. - Mmm-hmm.
BEHARIE: It just ends up, you know, me sort of mugging.
And he's saying a bunch of stuff.
What's going on with that neck? I love the corset and jeans look, though.
- It's very rock and roll. - GOFFMAN: Yeah.
Yeah, we stuck with that for a good part of the season.
(KATRINA CHANTING IN LATIN)
GOFFMAN: And this is the moment of truth, here.
You know, can Katrina follow through on her promise and kill Moloch?
BEHARIE: Uh-oh.
He's a demon.
Oy. That just looks amazing.
- The set's so beautiful. - GOFFMAN: Yeah.
BEHARIE: With the blue on the walls, the red hair,
and visually, it's really stunning.
(KATRINA BREATHING HEAVILY)
GOFFMAN: Yeah, we did...
We went through a decent amount of casting, too, for this.
Even though it's one image of boy Moloch.
We wanted to find just the right look for this kid.
I thought shot really effectively, where you just get glimpses
and then finally there he is, wearing Henry's clothes.
I'm hungry, Mother.
BEHARIE: Yeah, well, it definitely paid off.
- (BOTH LAUGH) - He looks just like her.
- GOFFMAN: That is it."Mama," Episode 209. - Whoo!
BEHARIE: It's cool.
GOFFMAN: Thanks so much for watching, joining us.
- And thank you, Nicole. - Yes, thank you.
- Oh, my goodness. Thank you, Mark. - It was really fun.
BEHARIE: Thank you for writing that. It was so much fun to do.
GOFFMAN: Credit Damian. BEHARIE: Till next time.
- GOFFMAN: Yeah. - (BOTH LAUGH)
Until next time.