1 00:00:01,294 --> 00:00:02,754 ABBIE: Previously on Sleepy Hollow... 2 00:00:02,837 --> 00:00:04,506 Our quest will not be without peril. 3 00:00:04,589 --> 00:00:06,049 MARK GOFFMAN: Hi, this is Mark Goffman. 4 00:00:06,132 --> 00:00:10,512 I'm one of the executive producers and showrunner for season one and two. 5 00:00:10,595 --> 00:00:14,099 TOM MISON: And I'm Tom Mison, and I play Ichabod Crane. 6 00:00:14,182 --> 00:00:16,726 There I am with a drippy sword, so to speak. 7 00:00:16,810 --> 00:00:17,811 The time has come. 8 00:00:17,894 --> 00:00:18,895 GOFFMAN: Uh, there they all are. 9 00:00:18,978 --> 00:00:24,025 This is "previously on" from Episodes 201 through 10, 10 00:00:24,109 --> 00:00:27,404 as we are now watching the mid-season finale "The Akeda." 11 00:00:30,824 --> 00:00:32,283 (TIRES SCREECHING) 12 00:00:33,576 --> 00:00:35,286 MISON: This will be exciting for all of us 13 00:00:35,370 --> 00:00:40,583 'cause I have no recollection of this episode at all. 14 00:00:40,667 --> 00:00:43,378 When we moved to 18 episodes 15 00:00:44,170 --> 00:00:47,006 and because it was such a busy, hectic schedule, 16 00:00:47,090 --> 00:00:48,466 within two weeks, 17 00:00:48,550 --> 00:00:50,385 I will have completely forgotten an episode. 18 00:00:50,468 --> 00:00:53,179 So this will be a real treat for me. 19 00:00:53,304 --> 00:00:56,224 GOFFMAN: (LAUGHS) That's great. As we're watching for the first time. 20 00:00:56,307 --> 00:00:59,936 You know, it was kind of like that on the writing side, too. 21 00:01:00,019 --> 00:01:01,730 We had, uh, you know... 22 00:01:01,813 --> 00:01:06,735 This was actually pitched in our original season as Episode 7 23 00:01:07,485 --> 00:01:09,904 when it was a 13-episode order and then... 24 00:01:09,988 --> 00:01:11,197 - MISON: Really? - Yes. 25 00:01:11,281 --> 00:01:15,326 And as we sort of elongated to 18, it became Episode 1 1, 26 00:01:15,660 --> 00:01:22,167 but initially Moloch's birth and arising was all in the seventh episode. 27 00:01:23,376 --> 00:01:28,173 MISON: With the similar outcome when it was seven, of the killing of Moloch. 28 00:01:28,256 --> 00:01:30,049 GOFFMAN: That part was all set at the beginning. 29 00:01:30,133 --> 00:01:35,805 It was funny. Len Wiseman, you know, genius co-creator of the show, 30 00:01:35,889 --> 00:01:39,768 never was satisfied with the way Moloch looked. 31 00:01:39,851 --> 00:01:44,189 And over the hiatus, we had about a one week hiatus 32 00:01:44,272 --> 00:01:46,775 between season one and season two in the writers' room. 33 00:01:46,858 --> 00:01:48,234 But Len just one day said, 34 00:01:48,318 --> 00:01:50,111 "You know, I wish we could just kill Moloch. 35 00:01:50,195 --> 00:01:52,781 "He's... Like I just... I don't think he's scary enough." 36 00:01:52,864 --> 00:01:54,824 And, you know... And it's funny, 37 00:01:54,908 --> 00:01:58,036 we developed all these little tricks to sort of conceal him. 38 00:01:58,119 --> 00:02:01,748 That's why the inside joke before he had a name, 39 00:02:01,873 --> 00:02:03,917 - um, which was in the pilot... - The Blurry Man. 40 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,293 GOFFMAN: Yes, he was the Blurry Man. (LAUGHS) 41 00:02:05,376 --> 00:02:06,377 MISON: Yeah. 42 00:02:06,461 --> 00:02:08,880 GOFFMAN: And that was in part to make him scarier. 43 00:02:08,963 --> 00:02:12,801 And we developed some, you know, sort of stutter frames 44 00:02:12,884 --> 00:02:16,513 and other techniques to keep him really scary. 45 00:02:16,596 --> 00:02:20,809 And then, after Len said, "Why don't we just kill him?" 46 00:02:20,892 --> 00:02:24,354 You know, we thought about it and said, "Well, we can. Let's do it." 47 00:02:24,437 --> 00:02:27,482 And that would be a way to really kind of reset the show, 48 00:02:27,565 --> 00:02:29,818 and give us something really to kind of propel us 49 00:02:29,901 --> 00:02:32,946 for the first half of the season. 50 00:02:33,530 --> 00:02:35,824 MISON: But before he dies, we'll put him in a dress. 51 00:02:36,699 --> 00:02:38,827 - (GOFFMAN LAUGHS) - The long, flowing black dress in this one. 52 00:02:38,910 --> 00:02:41,830 - GOFFMAN: The riding skirt. - Exactly. 53 00:02:41,913 --> 00:02:43,957 Yeah. Now, Corey Castellano, 54 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,669 who creates all of the creatures for the show, 55 00:02:47,752 --> 00:02:48,753 he always seemed to be 56 00:02:49,254 --> 00:02:50,880 working on a new Moloch. 57 00:02:50,964 --> 00:02:53,550 - (GOFFMAN) Yes. (LAUGHS) - He'd be working at the individual episodes, 58 00:02:53,633 --> 00:02:55,718 but always there were plans 59 00:02:55,802 --> 00:02:58,847 for how to change Moloch next and make him scarier. 60 00:02:58,930 --> 00:03:01,015 GOFFMAN: There was Moloch V1 from the pilot. 61 00:03:01,099 --> 00:03:02,183 Then there was a V2, 62 00:03:02,267 --> 00:03:05,436 which all of us kind of thought looked exactly like V1, 63 00:03:06,145 --> 00:03:09,566 with the exception, I think it was about two feet taller. 64 00:03:09,649 --> 00:03:13,027 - MISON: Yeah. - Um, so he was bumping into ceilings. 65 00:03:13,111 --> 00:03:14,571 MISON: And we also, over the... 66 00:03:14,654 --> 00:03:18,825 So far we've had three different actors playing Moloch. 67 00:03:18,908 --> 00:03:19,868 - GOFFMAN: That's right. - In the pilot, 68 00:03:19,951 --> 00:03:26,207 we had... The suit was like nearly seven feet. It was huge. 69 00:03:26,291 --> 00:03:28,751 And so they just got the tallest person they could find, 70 00:03:28,835 --> 00:03:31,796 who I think was the brother of someone working in the office. 71 00:03:32,463 --> 00:03:36,551 And then when we started shooting season one, 72 00:03:36,634 --> 00:03:38,803 there was a guy... I think it was season one. 73 00:03:39,137 --> 00:03:40,138 - Yeah, it must have been. - GOFFMAN: Yeah. 74 00:03:40,221 --> 00:03:45,184 MISON: It was a guy called DJ, who was a dancer, and moved amazingly. 75 00:03:45,393 --> 00:03:51,316 And so could do a lot of the stuttery effects that we put on to the Blurry Man 76 00:03:51,399 --> 00:03:52,942 - when he was still called the Blurry Man. - GOFFMAN: Mmm. 77 00:03:53,026 --> 00:03:56,279 And the voice. You know, the voice was Alex Kurtzman. 78 00:03:56,362 --> 00:03:57,864 - MISON: No. - Yeah. 79 00:03:58,531 --> 00:03:59,574 - MISON: Really? - Yeah. 80 00:03:59,657 --> 00:04:01,284 The place is abandoned. 81 00:04:06,164 --> 00:04:10,668 MISON: And then DJ, who was a brilliant dancer and moved amazingly, 82 00:04:11,210 --> 00:04:16,257 then was replaced by... Season two Moloch, was Derek Mears. 83 00:04:16,466 --> 00:04:19,427 - GOFFMAN: Right. - Who is just mister creature. 84 00:04:19,510 --> 00:04:21,763 - He's incredible. He was our Golem. - Mmm-hmm. 85 00:04:21,846 --> 00:04:25,099 MISON: He was... Who else did he... Who else did Derek play? 86 00:04:25,183 --> 00:04:29,604 Oh, God, I'm having a brain drain at the worst possible moment. 87 00:04:29,687 --> 00:04:32,023 GOFFMAN: Yeah, a number of the bigger creatures. 88 00:04:32,106 --> 00:04:35,109 - He and Marti were really our go-to's. - Marti Matulis. 89 00:04:35,193 --> 00:04:36,277 - Yeah. - GOFFMAN: Yeah. 90 00:04:36,361 --> 00:04:38,613 MISON: Between them, they played pretty much all of them. 91 00:04:38,696 --> 00:04:42,700 GOFFMAN: Yeah, the Sandman, most of our memorable, the Wendigo. 92 00:04:43,451 --> 00:04:44,702 MISON: Yeah. 93 00:04:46,287 --> 00:04:48,831 GOFFMAN: This is back in Fredericks Manor now, 94 00:04:48,915 --> 00:04:50,500 which was... 95 00:04:52,585 --> 00:04:56,214 Fredericks Manor came up in season one 96 00:04:56,547 --> 00:05:00,468 when we were looking for a place for a haunted house episode, 97 00:05:00,551 --> 00:05:02,095 and it became "Sanctuary," 98 00:05:02,178 --> 00:05:05,807 which of course had importance for Crane's history, 99 00:05:05,890 --> 00:05:09,936 in that he and Katrina had visited there. 100 00:05:10,019 --> 00:05:12,438 And it became sort of the... 101 00:05:12,522 --> 00:05:16,693 One of the places that good had sort of housed 102 00:05:17,402 --> 00:05:20,947 all of the secrets to the war. 103 00:05:21,072 --> 00:05:25,910 And of course Grace Dixon was there, and ultimately where Henry was born. 104 00:05:27,870 --> 00:05:29,122 (KATRINA GRUNTING) 105 00:05:29,247 --> 00:05:35,169 Two locations in this episode became of historical importance to the show. 106 00:05:35,253 --> 00:05:37,296 The Fredericks Manor, which is where Henry was born 107 00:05:37,380 --> 00:05:42,635 and then took over once he moved back, and then Saint Henry's Parish, 108 00:05:42,719 --> 00:05:47,640 which was the church right next to where he was unearthed. 109 00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:49,267 - And ultimately... - And took his name. 110 00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:50,727 GOFFMAN: Yes, took his name. 111 00:05:51,644 --> 00:05:53,813 How was this sword fight for you, Tom? 112 00:05:53,896 --> 00:05:56,482 MISON: I loved doing all of the sword fights. 113 00:05:56,566 --> 00:05:59,819 When we see another character with multiple actors, 114 00:06:00,445 --> 00:06:05,241 Headless, without a head, is played by a chap called Jeremy, 115 00:06:05,324 --> 00:06:06,826 who's a local in Wilmington. 116 00:06:06,909 --> 00:06:12,290 And he's an expert in various forms of martial arts, armed and unarmed. 117 00:06:12,457 --> 00:06:17,962 And also, is the chief lifeguard on Wilmington beach. 118 00:06:18,046 --> 00:06:19,464 GOFFMAN: Oh. 119 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:25,887 MISON: And he just is a huge imposing man. 120 00:06:26,137 --> 00:06:29,766 And so whenever they say, "All right, Tom, go and fight Jeremy." 121 00:06:29,849 --> 00:06:32,894 I always think, "I know how this is going to end up." 122 00:06:32,977 --> 00:06:34,062 - (GOFFMAN LAUGHS) - It's always nice. 123 00:06:34,145 --> 00:06:37,607 The one thing that I've always admired about Crane 124 00:06:38,232 --> 00:06:44,363 is he knows he's never going to beat the Headless Horseman. 125 00:06:44,447 --> 00:06:46,574 - GOFFMAN: Yeah. - 'Cause he's the Horseman of Death. 126 00:06:46,657 --> 00:06:50,620 Yet, if ever he needs to stand in the way 127 00:06:50,703 --> 00:06:54,999 between Headless and any of Team Witness, 128 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,252 he'll go and do it, he'll put himself in danger. 129 00:06:58,336 --> 00:07:00,088 And this was the first fight 130 00:07:00,171 --> 00:07:02,090 where he thought he could have the upper hand 131 00:07:02,173 --> 00:07:04,467 because of the Sword of Methuselah. 132 00:07:05,510 --> 00:07:06,844 - GOFFMAN: So he did. - And he approaches it 133 00:07:06,928 --> 00:07:08,971 with a completely different, new... 134 00:07:09,055 --> 00:07:10,515 You know, with vim and vigor 135 00:07:10,848 --> 00:07:12,266 and breaks the Horseman's ax. 136 00:07:12,350 --> 00:07:14,685 - I thought it was a lovely fight. - Yeah, it was really fun to see. 137 00:07:14,769 --> 00:07:17,897 It was neat to see that reversal, too, with the Horseman. 138 00:07:17,980 --> 00:07:20,441 - You know, if he had a head... - On the back foot, yeah. 139 00:07:20,525 --> 00:07:21,943 GOFFMAN:...you would have seen him stunned. (LAUGHS) 140 00:07:22,026 --> 00:07:24,320 MISON: Well, it's funny you should say, "If he had a head." 141 00:07:24,403 --> 00:07:26,072 'Cause coming up now, 142 00:07:26,155 --> 00:07:28,616 Katrina does another convenient bit of magic, 143 00:07:28,699 --> 00:07:32,453 and we are soon to see the Horseman with a head. 144 00:07:33,037 --> 00:07:34,539 Yeah, with Neil Jackson. 145 00:07:36,666 --> 00:07:39,794 GOFFMAN: That too was something that I thought was fun, 146 00:07:39,877 --> 00:07:43,965 because normally... Episode 10 was the first episode, 147 00:07:44,048 --> 00:07:45,758 the one previous to this was the first time 148 00:07:45,842 --> 00:07:48,094 that Crane had actually gotten to see Abraham, 149 00:07:48,177 --> 00:07:51,222 his old friend from many hundred years ago. 150 00:07:51,305 --> 00:07:52,515 Abraham. 151 00:07:53,683 --> 00:07:58,563 But now he gets to have a conversation where he fully has the upper hand. 152 00:07:58,646 --> 00:08:00,731 The Horseman of Death is no exception. 153 00:08:00,815 --> 00:08:02,358 Yes, the Sword of Methuselah. 154 00:08:02,441 --> 00:08:03,818 MISON: And it... I'm... Right. 155 00:08:03,901 --> 00:08:08,531 Whenever Katrina is wearing the necklace, she can see Abraham. 156 00:08:09,323 --> 00:08:10,491 - GOFFMAN: Yeah. - But no one else can, 157 00:08:10,575 --> 00:08:13,411 until she does this nifty little spell. 158 00:08:13,494 --> 00:08:17,331 GOFFMAN: That trick initially came up because the Headless Horseman 159 00:08:17,415 --> 00:08:20,084 - is about $10,000 a shot. - (MISON LAUGHS) 160 00:08:20,251 --> 00:08:22,753 GOFFMAN: And so you can imagine, 161 00:08:22,837 --> 00:08:26,424 you know, the cost goes up very quickly to do these fights. 162 00:08:26,507 --> 00:08:28,676 MISON: And there I was thinking it was an idea 163 00:08:28,759 --> 00:08:32,471 with story being the driving force. But no, it's cash. 164 00:08:33,055 --> 00:08:36,517 - GOFFMAN: Well, sometimes, you know... - I didn't realize it was that much, 165 00:08:36,601 --> 00:08:38,060 that much for the effects. 166 00:08:38,144 --> 00:08:39,687 GOFFMAN: For some of the bigger ones. 167 00:08:39,770 --> 00:08:43,232 I think the lowest it cost is about $3,500 to $5,000. 168 00:08:43,649 --> 00:08:44,692 MISON: Wow. 169 00:08:44,775 --> 00:08:50,072 GOFFMAN: But then a lot of the more bigger movement shots are about 10 grand. 170 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:52,575 So, you know, 171 00:08:52,658 --> 00:08:56,871 between season one and season two, we wanted a way to keep Headless alive, 172 00:08:56,954 --> 00:09:00,541 and show him in... You know, Neil Jackson we knew from... 173 00:09:00,791 --> 00:09:03,252 I had actually worked with him on a previous show. 174 00:09:03,336 --> 00:09:07,173 And I knew he was both 175 00:09:07,256 --> 00:09:10,134 conversant with a sword and a terrific actor. 176 00:09:10,218 --> 00:09:11,344 MISON: Yeah. 177 00:09:11,427 --> 00:09:13,679 GOFFMAN: He seemed like a great part for the role 178 00:09:13,763 --> 00:09:15,598 and we expanded it here in season two. 179 00:09:15,681 --> 00:09:19,185 Both for production reasons and because... 180 00:09:19,268 --> 00:09:24,315 As you pointed out for story, it really was a fun way to work. 181 00:09:24,607 --> 00:09:26,984 And it allowed him to speak, which was... 182 00:09:27,068 --> 00:09:29,487 You know, and without... And John Cho, at that point, 183 00:09:29,570 --> 00:09:33,449 was off doing another show, so we couldn't have him following around. 184 00:09:33,532 --> 00:09:36,035 MISON: Oh, of course, because we saw Headless 185 00:09:36,118 --> 00:09:38,663 speak through John Cho in season one, 186 00:09:38,746 --> 00:09:40,748 - at some point in season one. - Yes. 187 00:09:40,831 --> 00:09:42,416 MISON: John Cho always replaced by a necklace. 188 00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:43,626 GOFFMAN: Yeah. 189 00:09:45,336 --> 00:09:46,754 (GOFFMAN LAUGHS) 190 00:09:48,089 --> 00:09:52,426 GOFFMAN: And then, you know, this was a fun part to show, that there's... 191 00:09:52,510 --> 00:09:54,136 One of the things we like to do on the show 192 00:09:54,220 --> 00:09:56,681 is that there's always a cost to the magic involved. 193 00:09:56,764 --> 00:10:01,811 And it can never be as easy as just getting a sword and saving the day. 194 00:10:01,894 --> 00:10:04,814 So the question here is, 195 00:10:04,897 --> 00:10:09,151 "Do we trust the conveyer of this information?" 196 00:10:09,235 --> 00:10:10,528 You're not getting off that easy. 197 00:10:10,695 --> 00:10:11,946 - (CELL PHONE VIBRATING) - Oh... 198 00:10:12,238 --> 00:10:15,324 MISON: I like that little moment between Ichabod and Abbie. 199 00:10:15,408 --> 00:10:18,369 - GOFFMAN: Yeah. - Where he says, "I'll kill him now." 200 00:10:18,452 --> 00:10:20,329 And she says, "You're not getting out of it that easy." 201 00:10:20,413 --> 00:10:23,541 GOFFMAN: Right. She's not about to be left alone with this if he is right. 202 00:10:23,624 --> 00:10:25,084 MISON: No, exactly. 203 00:10:26,210 --> 00:10:31,257 It's great. It's a nice little... A subtle reminder of their bond. 204 00:10:31,465 --> 00:10:35,386 And not just in terms of witnesses, but also as friends. 205 00:10:35,469 --> 00:10:36,637 GOFFMAN: Yeah. 206 00:10:36,721 --> 00:10:41,559 Yeah, a continuing theme in the show, and one that really is at the heart of it. 207 00:10:41,642 --> 00:10:44,854 Exacting the cost of death for death. 208 00:10:45,104 --> 00:10:48,983 GOFFMAN: Dwight Little, this was the first episode that he directed of the show. 209 00:10:49,066 --> 00:10:51,277 And, Tom, how did you find working with him? 210 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,695 MISON: I love Dwight. 211 00:10:52,778 --> 00:10:55,990 There's nothing more to say. I love him. 212 00:10:56,073 --> 00:11:00,453 He's a man who constantly has very, very strong ideas. 213 00:11:00,953 --> 00:11:06,208 He shoots quickly, which we like, and beautifully. 214 00:11:06,375 --> 00:11:09,587 And also, he's quite unusual 215 00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:14,258 when you've got the intense schedule of a television show. 216 00:11:15,009 --> 00:11:18,637 Before every scene, he brings out a table and some chairs, 217 00:11:18,721 --> 00:11:21,140 and we all sit around and discuss the scene, 218 00:11:21,223 --> 00:11:25,936 which is such a rarity on a schedule like this. 219 00:11:26,604 --> 00:11:30,983 We don't often get a chance to discuss the scene before we rehearse it. 220 00:11:31,067 --> 00:11:32,276 That's not what I was gonna pitch. 221 00:11:32,860 --> 00:11:38,032 GOFFMAN: Yeah. I thought... Also, it created even a calm, you know, 222 00:11:38,115 --> 00:11:39,700 - before, that everyone gets. - Absolutely. 223 00:11:39,784 --> 00:11:41,160 GOFFMAN: He's like, "I know this is taking time, 224 00:11:41,243 --> 00:11:42,453 "that we're supposed to be shooting, 225 00:11:42,536 --> 00:11:45,414 "but it's okay. I'd rather have this conversation now. 226 00:11:45,498 --> 00:11:47,875 "Let's all sit around the table and walk through the scene." 227 00:11:47,958 --> 00:11:50,461 And I really liked that approach. 228 00:11:50,544 --> 00:11:54,507 MISON: Yeah, especially for scenes like this, where there's three of us with... 229 00:11:54,590 --> 00:11:58,386 This is probably another seven or eight page scene. 230 00:11:58,469 --> 00:11:59,637 GOFFMAN: Yeah. 231 00:12:00,137 --> 00:12:04,475 MISON: It's good to find the corners that we all need to turn within it, 232 00:12:04,558 --> 00:12:07,186 so it's not just three people talking at each other. 233 00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:09,730 - Not that it ever is, of course. - GOFFMAN: Yeah. 234 00:12:09,814 --> 00:12:11,857 I actually really loved getting Lyndie 235 00:12:12,191 --> 00:12:14,527 or Jenny back in this scene. It was... 236 00:12:14,610 --> 00:12:18,072 One of the things about this episode that was really fun for me 237 00:12:18,155 --> 00:12:20,241 was that it was the first time, really, 238 00:12:20,324 --> 00:12:22,827 that we were all coming back together again, 239 00:12:23,327 --> 00:12:25,996 that the group was getting to reassemble 240 00:12:28,207 --> 00:12:31,919 after several episodes of sort of having to all be separated. 241 00:12:32,002 --> 00:12:33,212 MISON: Yeah. 242 00:12:33,671 --> 00:12:37,174 GOFFMAN: Here's... You can see how we're obscuring Moloch there. 243 00:12:37,591 --> 00:12:39,301 (BOTH LAUGHING) 244 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:44,723 MISON: But this is another new Moloch. 245 00:12:44,807 --> 00:12:49,270 That's when Moloch shed his old skin and becomes a... 246 00:12:49,353 --> 00:12:51,272 - GOFFMAN: Yes. - ...powerful shadowy Moloch. 247 00:12:53,274 --> 00:12:58,737 GOFFMAN: Another... I thought really smart Len Wiseman pitch and idea, 248 00:12:59,822 --> 00:13:01,115 he actually came up with the idea 249 00:13:01,198 --> 00:13:04,326 that Katrina becomes pregnant with baby Moloch. 250 00:13:04,410 --> 00:13:09,331 And as part of that, his earthly look should be different 251 00:13:09,415 --> 00:13:11,792 - than what we saw in Purgatory. - Right. 252 00:13:11,876 --> 00:13:14,086 A binding ritual is no future. 253 00:13:14,170 --> 00:13:15,671 A last resort. 254 00:13:16,046 --> 00:13:17,590 I fought for you, 255 00:13:17,673 --> 00:13:20,634 and in return you tried to deceive and destroy me. 256 00:13:20,718 --> 00:13:22,052 Not to destroy you. 257 00:13:22,928 --> 00:13:23,971 Moloch. 258 00:13:24,054 --> 00:13:27,975 GOFFMAN: Little spat here between former captive and captor. 259 00:13:28,058 --> 00:13:29,685 MISON: Ex-fiancés. (CHUCKLES) 260 00:13:29,894 --> 00:13:31,020 But... 261 00:13:31,937 --> 00:13:34,148 While I was with you... 262 00:13:34,231 --> 00:13:37,651 GOFFMAN: The idea for this episode actually came as I was thinking about... 263 00:13:37,735 --> 00:13:39,320 This is really the first time... 264 00:13:39,403 --> 00:13:44,158 Just like it was the first time that Crane had the power to potentially kill Headless, 265 00:13:45,075 --> 00:13:49,288 it was the first time that that sword also gives him the power to kill Henry, 266 00:13:49,371 --> 00:13:52,583 - who's been the nemesis for the season. - Yeah, quite. 267 00:13:53,292 --> 00:13:57,922 GOFFMAN: And in thinking about the story of Abraham and Isaac, 268 00:13:58,297 --> 00:14:01,509 I'd read a long time ago this story, 269 00:14:01,592 --> 00:14:04,720 the Kierkegaard story called Fear and Trembling, 270 00:14:04,803 --> 00:14:09,600 which was his kind of reconciling of this incredible ask 271 00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:16,190 that God requests of or demands of Abraham to prove his faith. 272 00:14:17,066 --> 00:14:21,362 And that last step, according to Kierkegaard, 273 00:14:21,445 --> 00:14:25,199 before you can have faith is really infinite 274 00:14:25,282 --> 00:14:28,452 of giving up of what you believe and what you see. 275 00:14:28,536 --> 00:14:30,955 And to do that for his son, and he just questioned, 276 00:14:31,038 --> 00:14:32,957 "How could any god ever demand that?" 277 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,127 Which, of course, seemed like the right motivation to give to Henry. 278 00:14:37,211 --> 00:14:39,880 He doesn't buy in to our world anyway. 279 00:14:39,964 --> 00:14:43,592 And to say that the world is unjust. I mean, look at what's happened to his life. 280 00:14:43,676 --> 00:14:46,595 He was put in a box for a couple hundred years 281 00:14:46,679 --> 00:14:50,474 after being tormented, having just a pretty hard childhood. 282 00:14:50,849 --> 00:14:52,935 - MISON: Oh, who hasn't? Get over it. - (GOFFMAN LAUGHS) 283 00:14:53,978 --> 00:14:57,064 So, in this cruel world, no god could have created a world... 284 00:14:57,147 --> 00:14:59,191 No just god could have created a world that way. 285 00:14:59,275 --> 00:15:03,946 So, of course, that's a god who's going to try to have a father sacrifice his son. 286 00:15:04,530 --> 00:15:07,992 In the heat of battle, we may not have the opportunity. 287 00:15:08,617 --> 00:15:09,994 There may be no other way. 288 00:15:10,828 --> 00:15:13,497 My love, there's always another way. 289 00:15:32,433 --> 00:15:33,684 (THUNDER CRASHING) 290 00:15:37,354 --> 00:15:39,231 Have you discovered anything new about the sword? 291 00:15:39,315 --> 00:15:41,442 Yeah, in the Alexandrian version of the Bible, 292 00:15:41,525 --> 00:15:42,943 there's a reference in Genesis. 293 00:15:43,319 --> 00:15:45,487 CRANE: Adjacent to the story of Abraham and Isaac. 294 00:15:46,864 --> 00:15:48,449 An unnerving test of faith. 295 00:15:48,824 --> 00:15:52,828 GOFFMAN: We were looking for an image of the story of Abraham and Isaac 296 00:15:52,911 --> 00:15:55,122 that best sort of typified it. 297 00:15:55,205 --> 00:15:58,876 And also, one that I wanted Crane to be able to recognize. 298 00:15:58,959 --> 00:16:02,129 And that seemed like a good one from... 299 00:16:02,212 --> 00:16:05,007 Just an incredible... It's a really moving painting. 300 00:16:05,716 --> 00:16:08,427 But, yeah, back to your point. 301 00:16:08,510 --> 00:16:13,724 I love... One of the things we got to finally put into the penultimate episode 302 00:16:14,183 --> 00:16:17,478 was where Crane finally gets that chance to say to Henry, 303 00:16:17,561 --> 00:16:20,356 - "I never even knew you were born." - (BOTH LAUGHING) 304 00:16:20,606 --> 00:16:23,776 - Talk about misplaced blame. - MISON: That was such a relief. 305 00:16:23,859 --> 00:16:27,821 It was a relief to finally have Crane say that as well. 306 00:16:27,905 --> 00:16:29,114 GOFFMAN: I'm sure. 307 00:16:29,198 --> 00:16:31,909 IRVING: Signing off. 9-23-17-8-0. 308 00:16:31,992 --> 00:16:36,872 MISON: The tricky thing actually throughout this season is trying to find 309 00:16:37,790 --> 00:16:42,252 why Crane holds on to Henry so tightly. 310 00:16:42,336 --> 00:16:43,754 Because he didn't even... 311 00:16:43,837 --> 00:16:48,175 As he says later in the season, he didn't even know he existed. 312 00:16:48,258 --> 00:16:50,886 And he's not to blame for Henry's treatment. 313 00:16:51,762 --> 00:16:53,514 Not only did he not know he existed, 314 00:16:53,597 --> 00:16:56,892 he didn't even know Katrina was ever pregnant. 315 00:16:56,975 --> 00:16:59,687 - GOFFMAN: Yeah. - His hands are completely clean. 316 00:16:59,770 --> 00:17:03,148 But I guess it says a lot about him as an honorable man 317 00:17:04,108 --> 00:17:06,443 that he is trying to find a family. 318 00:17:06,527 --> 00:17:11,156 Also, maybe a man... You know, he's 200 years out of his time. 319 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,867 - GOFFMAN: Yeah. - He's trying to find the family, 320 00:17:13,951 --> 00:17:16,829 trying to find anything that he has from the past. 321 00:17:16,912 --> 00:17:20,040 Also, I guess there's still the remainder of the guilt 322 00:17:20,124 --> 00:17:24,211 of abandoning his family and country before he came to America. 323 00:17:24,294 --> 00:17:26,463 To be accused of being unjust 324 00:17:26,547 --> 00:17:30,634 and to be accused of abandoning something unreasonably, 325 00:17:30,718 --> 00:17:33,595 I think that probably cuts him, and he wants to try and grab hold of it. 326 00:17:33,679 --> 00:17:37,766 GOFFMAN: And that is something... We didn't really get into it this season. 327 00:17:38,892 --> 00:17:42,020 Well, clearly family was a big theme this season, 328 00:17:42,104 --> 00:17:43,897 and finding your family, 329 00:17:43,981 --> 00:17:48,902 and having a family, and unconditional love and acceptance. 330 00:17:48,986 --> 00:17:52,072 And he doesn't have anyone else. 331 00:17:52,906 --> 00:17:55,784 And that's why it was so important when Katrina finally entered the world, 332 00:17:55,868 --> 00:17:59,705 and to have a son, there's the family that he's always wanted. 333 00:17:59,788 --> 00:18:04,668 And we know that his relationship with his own father became strained. 334 00:18:04,752 --> 00:18:08,547 And I think there's a big motivation there to not repeat that 335 00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:13,469 and to try for salvation knowing that it is something that's possible. 336 00:18:14,261 --> 00:18:17,097 And to exhaust all possibilities before, 337 00:18:17,181 --> 00:18:22,102 finally, as we get to the end of the season, saying it's not possible. 338 00:18:22,186 --> 00:18:26,023 And this is really the episode where I think Crane abandons hope 339 00:18:26,106 --> 00:18:29,526 that there is good in his son and moves on from that notion. 340 00:18:29,610 --> 00:18:31,945 If we do nothing, we all die. 341 00:18:32,196 --> 00:18:37,034 MISON: Ichabod's story, as far back as we can go in the character's timeline, 342 00:18:37,117 --> 00:18:39,787 has always been one of loss. 343 00:18:41,038 --> 00:18:44,082 And this an important episode, as you say, 344 00:18:44,166 --> 00:18:49,171 because it's when he finally agrees that it's time to shed his son as well. 345 00:18:50,631 --> 00:18:54,760 He loses his family and his country back in the 18th century. 346 00:18:55,803 --> 00:18:57,971 From the time he comes out of the ground he's just... 347 00:18:58,055 --> 00:19:02,226 Well, also in the 18th century, he loses his best friend Abraham. 348 00:19:03,727 --> 00:19:06,146 Then he loses his entire time. 349 00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:09,107 Everyone he's ever known is lost to him, 350 00:19:09,191 --> 00:19:11,819 and everything he's ever known, lost to him. 351 00:19:11,902 --> 00:19:16,865 And over the course of these two seasons, we've only seen him lose more and more. 352 00:19:18,575 --> 00:19:22,496 He supposes that he can win Katrina back, 353 00:19:23,038 --> 00:19:25,499 and that's the one thing that he has from his time. 354 00:19:26,416 --> 00:19:30,254 But she eventually is lost to him as well, as is Henry. 355 00:19:30,337 --> 00:19:34,341 It's quite tragic actually. I've not really thought of it like that. God. 356 00:19:34,424 --> 00:19:37,928 GOFFMAN: Though, in this episode, he does get to ride a motorcycle. 357 00:19:38,428 --> 00:19:40,722 MISON: So he does gain something. 358 00:19:40,806 --> 00:19:42,099 (BOTH LAUGHING) 359 00:19:42,599 --> 00:19:45,602 GOFFMAN: Was that the... Had you ridden a motorcycle before? 360 00:19:46,478 --> 00:19:51,066 MISON: Oh, when I was 15, round a friend's back garden. 361 00:19:52,609 --> 00:19:55,612 - But no, not really. - GOFFMAN: It did... It looked like fun. 362 00:19:56,113 --> 00:19:57,990 Found this old-school motorcycle. 363 00:19:59,283 --> 00:20:00,868 The question is... 364 00:20:01,493 --> 00:20:04,204 MISON: In fact, actually at the end of the first season, 365 00:20:04,288 --> 00:20:09,668 I remember you, me and Alex Kurtzman sitting in a field. 366 00:20:09,751 --> 00:20:11,503 - It was the re-enactment battle. - GOFFMAN: Yeah. 367 00:20:11,587 --> 00:20:13,422 - That's right, that's right. - MISON: We were discussing ideas 368 00:20:13,505 --> 00:20:15,424 for this second season. 369 00:20:15,632 --> 00:20:18,051 And I said, "I think Ichabod should ride a bike. 370 00:20:18,135 --> 00:20:21,013 "During the hiatus I'm going to learn to ride a motorbike." 371 00:20:21,138 --> 00:20:23,682 And the look on your faces 372 00:20:24,850 --> 00:20:30,230 when their lead actor said, "I'm going to learn to ride a motorbike." 373 00:20:30,314 --> 00:20:32,900 That's exactly what you'd expect from a producer. 374 00:20:32,983 --> 00:20:34,568 GOFFMAN: (LAUGHS) We're like, "Wait." 375 00:20:34,651 --> 00:20:37,988 And then of course, we have you not wearing a helmet in this episode. 376 00:20:38,113 --> 00:20:39,406 The Four Trees. 377 00:20:39,489 --> 00:20:41,199 - The Four White Trees? - Not anymore. 378 00:20:42,367 --> 00:20:45,454 So, I added the line, you know, 379 00:20:45,537 --> 00:20:48,582 that all laws are suspended during the apocalypse. 380 00:20:48,665 --> 00:20:50,000 MISON: (LAUGHS) Oh, yes. 381 00:20:51,835 --> 00:20:53,754 With each tree that is burned black, 382 00:20:53,837 --> 00:20:55,505 more evil may enter. 383 00:20:58,508 --> 00:21:01,762 GOFFMAN: This is where Crane and company are learning 384 00:21:01,845 --> 00:21:04,473 what Moloch's plan is here. 385 00:21:05,015 --> 00:21:08,143 That Purgatory is merging now with Earth. 386 00:21:09,603 --> 00:21:12,189 The fall of the third tree will bring Moloch's demon army. 387 00:21:12,314 --> 00:21:14,608 But he has to 'cause now there's... 388 00:21:14,691 --> 00:21:17,361 We found somebody, Irving, who can use the sword. 389 00:21:18,737 --> 00:21:20,739 And that was our piece of twistery in the episode 390 00:21:20,822 --> 00:21:24,034 was Irving's code that he left him 391 00:21:24,701 --> 00:21:27,162 was based on the... 392 00:21:27,871 --> 00:21:29,206 It was John Andre. 393 00:21:29,289 --> 00:21:33,418 A letter that Benedict Arnold had written to John Andre 394 00:21:34,252 --> 00:21:35,921 to give up West Point. 395 00:21:36,129 --> 00:21:40,968 Which could have turned the war, and Andre was arrested 396 00:21:41,051 --> 00:21:44,638 and we found that those papers on him in 1780. 397 00:21:44,721 --> 00:21:47,265 And Crane, of course, was familiar with that story 398 00:21:47,349 --> 00:21:53,981 and knew that Andre was taken to a holding cell in Sleepy Hollow, 399 00:21:54,064 --> 00:21:58,860 which is then where Irving had been camped out, present day. 400 00:22:00,654 --> 00:22:02,030 MISON: Very convenient. GOFFMAN: Mmm. 401 00:22:03,156 --> 00:22:05,617 It's amazing how much happened in Sleepy Hollow 402 00:22:05,701 --> 00:22:08,453 - during the revolution. - MISON: Isn't it? Isn't it? (LAUGHS) 403 00:22:08,996 --> 00:22:10,914 GOFFMAN: Franklin spent quite a bit of time. 404 00:22:11,623 --> 00:22:13,083 Washington. Yes. 405 00:22:14,376 --> 00:22:17,170 Well, but, you know, it was the hub of all, 406 00:22:17,254 --> 00:22:21,967 ground zero for evil, you know, the nexus between worlds, 407 00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:23,176 so all part of the secret war. 408 00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:24,761 I didn't know you guys liked to party. 409 00:22:26,638 --> 00:22:30,017 MISON: Quite, it's a cross between... Two ley lines cross there. 410 00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:31,977 - Isn't that right? - GOFFMAN: That's right. 411 00:22:33,228 --> 00:22:36,398 - MISON: That's that one solved. Phew. - All the way from there to Stonehenge. 412 00:22:36,648 --> 00:22:38,442 (BOTH CHUCKLE) 413 00:22:40,277 --> 00:22:42,362 MISON: Does that mean season three will shoot in England? 414 00:22:42,446 --> 00:22:45,866 GOFFMAN: You know I've been pushing for that for a long time, Tom. 415 00:22:45,949 --> 00:22:47,451 - MISON: I know. - (LAUGHS) 416 00:22:47,868 --> 00:22:50,203 GOFFMAN: 24 shot a season in England, 417 00:22:50,287 --> 00:22:52,831 and we were trying to convince Fox to, you know, 418 00:22:52,914 --> 00:22:57,461 take maybe the tail end of their production and shoot for a couple weeks there. 419 00:22:57,544 --> 00:22:58,712 Maybe, season three. 420 00:22:58,795 --> 00:23:01,173 Doomsdayers are zero for 10,000 years. 421 00:23:01,381 --> 00:23:06,053 GOFFMAN: This scene, so the hail of blood were these rock candies, 422 00:23:06,136 --> 00:23:09,264 and they had an entire truckload of these. 423 00:23:09,347 --> 00:23:11,892 Now, I don't know if anybody ate any of them, (LAUGHS) 424 00:23:11,975 --> 00:23:13,977 but it was pretty cool. 425 00:23:14,061 --> 00:23:15,979 - MISON: And then they just run out. - Yep. 426 00:23:16,063 --> 00:23:18,440 MISON: The second truck didn't arrive. GOFFMAN: No. 427 00:23:18,523 --> 00:23:20,901 - It's expensive. - MISON: That's ingenious. 428 00:23:20,984 --> 00:23:23,195 - You need hailing blood. - Mmm-hmm. 429 00:23:23,278 --> 00:23:24,446 MISON: I wouldn't know where to start. 430 00:23:24,529 --> 00:23:27,824 But, you know, obviously sweets, boiled sweets. 431 00:23:27,908 --> 00:23:31,203 GOFFMAN: You know, Jeremy Cassells, our production designer, 432 00:23:31,286 --> 00:23:33,747 Tyler is our new prop master, 433 00:23:33,830 --> 00:23:36,500 and Natalie, Jeremy's wife, is the art director. 434 00:23:36,583 --> 00:23:38,502 I think they killed it all season. 435 00:23:39,294 --> 00:23:40,253 - I mean... - MISON: Yeah, agreed. 436 00:23:40,337 --> 00:23:43,131 GOFFMAN: Just every single, you know... 437 00:23:43,215 --> 00:23:45,300 MISON: I mean, look, you mention props. Look at this. 438 00:23:45,383 --> 00:23:46,551 GOFFMAN: Yeah. 439 00:23:46,635 --> 00:23:52,390 MISON: Well, just the Archives, just this room is incredible. 440 00:23:53,183 --> 00:23:58,313 And day one, I went around sticking my name 441 00:23:58,396 --> 00:24:02,234 on all the bits of furniture that I wanted when the show finishes. 442 00:24:03,276 --> 00:24:06,822 They were quickly taken off and replaced by the props master's name. 443 00:24:06,905 --> 00:24:08,365 GOFFMAN: Oh, that's too bad. (LAUGHS) 444 00:24:10,158 --> 00:24:12,953 I liked in the season premiere when we just... 445 00:24:13,036 --> 00:24:16,081 We changed very subtle things actually in the Archives 446 00:24:16,581 --> 00:24:19,709 to show that... Just to give hints that it was Purgatory. 447 00:24:20,127 --> 00:24:22,462 I don't even know if all of them ended up on camera. 448 00:24:22,546 --> 00:24:28,051 But we flipped the mural that's behind Hawley here. 449 00:24:28,135 --> 00:24:30,220 MISON: The mural of Washington? GOFFMAN: Yes. 450 00:24:30,303 --> 00:24:31,638 Yeah, crossing the Delaware. 451 00:24:31,721 --> 00:24:35,892 And we changed the color of the leather chairs that are in the back. 452 00:24:36,059 --> 00:24:37,310 Wow. 453 00:24:37,394 --> 00:24:38,937 This ain't no Wendigo. 454 00:24:39,646 --> 00:24:41,064 ABBIE: The Horseman of Death. 455 00:24:42,107 --> 00:24:44,151 MISON: You'll have everyone going to Episode 1 on the DVD now 456 00:24:44,234 --> 00:24:46,653 to see if they can find all the differences. 457 00:24:46,736 --> 00:24:51,825 There were differences, Abbie's wearing peculiar earrings. 458 00:24:51,908 --> 00:24:53,952 - GOFFMAN: Mmm-hmm. - I seem to remember that. 459 00:24:55,162 --> 00:24:56,746 That symbolized something. 460 00:24:56,830 --> 00:24:57,998 They did tell me, but as I said, 461 00:24:58,081 --> 00:25:01,251 I've no recollection of anything before last week. 462 00:25:01,751 --> 00:25:03,378 - Wait, really? - Yeah. 463 00:25:03,461 --> 00:25:05,839 GOFFMAN: I like Abbie assigning 464 00:25:05,922 --> 00:25:08,425 Hawley here to just keep an eye on, you know... 465 00:25:08,884 --> 00:25:12,512 "Keep an eye on the Horseman. Things might get really out of hand. 466 00:25:12,596 --> 00:25:17,684 "So, I'm gonna go take down the big bad but you gotta watch this guy." 467 00:25:17,767 --> 00:25:18,977 I need to trust you 468 00:25:19,060 --> 00:25:21,396 to watch over the Headless Horseman until we get back. 469 00:25:21,605 --> 00:25:22,689 It's not a party, 470 00:25:22,772 --> 00:25:23,982 you cannot have any friends over. 471 00:25:24,566 --> 00:25:29,196 MISON: She has a lot of faith in Jefferson. That's the subtext here. 472 00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:33,533 Jefferson created this and Katrina put a magic spell on it. 473 00:25:33,617 --> 00:25:37,454 And it's Abbie showing that she has faith in two of Ichabod's things, 474 00:25:37,537 --> 00:25:38,872 Jefferson and Katrina, 475 00:25:38,955 --> 00:25:43,627 faith enough to leave Hawley, who isn't entirely trustworthy. 476 00:25:43,710 --> 00:25:44,878 GOFFMAN: No. 477 00:25:44,961 --> 00:25:48,173 But I like that, you know, it gives him something to do, 478 00:25:48,256 --> 00:25:50,967 and I just love the way she speaks to him in that scene. 479 00:25:51,051 --> 00:25:52,510 You know, "It's not a party." 480 00:25:53,345 --> 00:25:56,348 MISON: Hmm. I like the way the two Cranes speak to each other here. 481 00:25:56,431 --> 00:26:03,271 This is the first moment that we see a growing chasm in their relationship. 482 00:26:04,314 --> 00:26:07,108 GOFFMAN: Well, up until this point... 483 00:26:07,192 --> 00:26:09,778 You know, obviously, season one, she was in Purgatory 484 00:26:09,861 --> 00:26:11,863 and there were very urgent conversations. 485 00:26:11,947 --> 00:26:15,158 And then, really even in season two, 486 00:26:15,533 --> 00:26:19,996 so many of their conversations had to be truncated or just about the mission. 487 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,708 And now they finally have a moment to really have it out. 488 00:26:23,792 --> 00:26:25,919 MISON: Yeah, this is... Is this the scene? 489 00:26:26,002 --> 00:26:28,713 This is the first scene that they've been together, 490 00:26:28,797 --> 00:26:32,050 just the two of them alone, outside of Purgatory. 491 00:26:32,509 --> 00:26:36,554 Sometimes, I question the very idea of our "marriage." 492 00:26:36,638 --> 00:26:40,558 And this is where it ends up. And, you know, they're doomed. 493 00:26:41,518 --> 00:26:44,020 No matter how hard they both try, they're doomed. 494 00:26:44,104 --> 00:26:46,690 Also, I think Katia's cracking in this. 495 00:26:46,940 --> 00:26:48,942 GOFFMAN: Mmm. Yeah, absolutely. 496 00:26:49,025 --> 00:26:51,236 We are both better off considering ourselves 497 00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:53,530 in the roles we have to play in this war. 498 00:26:55,282 --> 00:26:56,533 Soldiers. 499 00:26:56,825 --> 00:27:00,495 Yeah, I think it was such an emotional scene, 500 00:27:00,578 --> 00:27:03,456 you know, to finally... Cathartic, in a way. 501 00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:07,877 All season long, she's been really trying as hard as she can 502 00:27:07,961 --> 00:27:10,755 to figure out her place, and to keep with the mission, 503 00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:14,301 and figure out where her relationship is with Crane. 504 00:27:14,384 --> 00:27:16,928 And it's been evolving as she's spent more time, 505 00:27:17,012 --> 00:27:18,430 you know, on the other side, 506 00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:20,724 and I think she's really struggling here. 507 00:27:21,558 --> 00:27:23,310 MOLOCH: The third tree burns 508 00:27:23,393 --> 00:27:26,771 and we still await the Horseman of Death. 509 00:27:26,855 --> 00:27:29,649 The witch created weakness in Abraham. 510 00:27:29,733 --> 00:27:30,942 She must have delayed him. 511 00:27:31,026 --> 00:27:32,152 MOLOCH: The sword. 512 00:27:33,236 --> 00:27:36,156 You should have prevented this. 513 00:27:36,990 --> 00:27:38,783 MISON: That's not Alex as well, is it, doing that voice? 514 00:27:38,867 --> 00:27:40,285 GOFFMAN: No, that was not Alex. 515 00:27:40,368 --> 00:27:41,828 MISON: That was Marti. 516 00:27:42,829 --> 00:27:44,956 GOFFMAN: It was him on stage. 517 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,001 We checked. We actually tried a few different voices. 518 00:27:48,084 --> 00:27:50,962 I think we ended up sticking with him. 519 00:27:51,046 --> 00:27:53,715 But in post we always try a few different things 520 00:27:53,798 --> 00:27:56,509 and we re-pitched it and added some... 521 00:27:58,845 --> 00:28:00,597 I don't know, some audio design. 522 00:28:02,349 --> 00:28:04,517 MISON: (IMPERSONATING) I volunteered to do my Alan Bennett, 523 00:28:04,601 --> 00:28:06,436 but it was overruled. 524 00:28:07,937 --> 00:28:10,607 - Too intimidating. - GOFFMAN: I think so. 525 00:28:10,982 --> 00:28:12,233 ABBIE: I take it you two spoke. 526 00:28:12,317 --> 00:28:13,360 We agreed. 527 00:28:13,443 --> 00:28:15,153 We share a single focus, 528 00:28:15,236 --> 00:28:16,613 - Moloch. - (GUNSHOT) 529 00:28:19,866 --> 00:28:20,867 We got company! 530 00:28:22,118 --> 00:28:23,119 (SNARLING) 531 00:28:24,454 --> 00:28:27,290 GOFFMAN: And that crossbow. Do you have a story with the crossbow? 532 00:28:27,374 --> 00:28:30,877 MISON: No. It's actually... Yes, yes, I do. (CHUCKLES) 533 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:37,217 The crossbow, very early on, in season one, I'd made the decision, 534 00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:40,762 I didn't want Crane to use modern weapons. 535 00:28:42,806 --> 00:28:46,518 We had the great gag in the first episode 536 00:28:46,601 --> 00:28:49,604 where he doesn't realize that it fires more than once. 537 00:28:49,687 --> 00:28:53,149 And after that, it was something that I particularly wanted to avoid. 538 00:28:54,234 --> 00:28:58,238 And eventually, someone came up with the crossbow, 539 00:28:58,321 --> 00:28:59,989 - which was an excellent idea. - Yeah. 540 00:29:00,073 --> 00:29:02,742 MISON: Now, the interesting thing about it is later on 541 00:29:02,826 --> 00:29:06,204 you see Ichabod with a pump action crossbow 542 00:29:06,287 --> 00:29:08,456 so that he can shoot more and more arrows. 543 00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:09,624 GOFFMAN: Yep. 544 00:29:10,834 --> 00:29:15,547 MISON: You know, I thought it was amazing and weird and amazingly weird. 545 00:29:15,630 --> 00:29:18,758 And I looked it up. And you know, that was invented 546 00:29:18,842 --> 00:29:20,552 hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago. 547 00:29:20,635 --> 00:29:21,636 GOFFMAN: Yeah. 548 00:29:21,719 --> 00:29:23,555 - MISON: The pump action crossbow. - Yep. 549 00:29:24,347 --> 00:29:25,348 MISON: And I had no idea. 550 00:29:25,432 --> 00:29:29,936 I thought it was, you know... I thought that was us really testing... 551 00:29:30,019 --> 00:29:33,523 Asking the audience to suspend disbelief with a pump action crossbow. 552 00:29:33,606 --> 00:29:37,318 But, actually, the Chinese invented it centuries and centuries ago. 553 00:29:37,402 --> 00:29:42,907 GOFFMAN: There's a really cool YouTube video of a crossbow expert 554 00:29:42,991 --> 00:29:47,287 and a bow and arrow expert who trained in the ancient way. 555 00:29:47,370 --> 00:29:50,665 And it's kind of amazing how quickly he can pull. 556 00:29:50,748 --> 00:29:52,792 It's... (STAMMERS) 557 00:29:52,876 --> 00:29:55,879 I thought that you probably adopted your style from his. 558 00:29:56,212 --> 00:30:01,259 They actually shoot the arrow on the right side so that they can pull it. 559 00:30:01,342 --> 00:30:06,306 And somehow in the last, you know, 50 to 100 years, 560 00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:09,225 we've done some things to make it more accurate 561 00:30:10,143 --> 00:30:13,104 but it's taken away the ability to shoot quickly. 562 00:30:13,188 --> 00:30:19,652 Which was, you know, prior to the advent of guns, much more important. 563 00:30:20,570 --> 00:30:22,071 I love this effect. I thought that was really cool. 564 00:30:22,739 --> 00:30:24,073 MISON: Mmm. 565 00:30:25,033 --> 00:30:27,202 I love that there's a crossbow expert. 566 00:30:27,285 --> 00:30:30,497 I'm gonna give up acting. I've got a new aim in life. 567 00:30:32,081 --> 00:30:34,000 GOFFMAN: You know, you have a future there 568 00:30:34,083 --> 00:30:35,877 if you so choose. 569 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,337 MISON: Thanks, man. 570 00:30:37,587 --> 00:30:38,796 Uh-oh. 571 00:30:39,589 --> 00:30:40,882 - Here it comes. - GOFFMAN: Mmm. 572 00:30:43,927 --> 00:30:45,803 Yeah, this realization. 573 00:30:46,221 --> 00:30:47,430 (GRUNTS) Captain. 574 00:30:49,432 --> 00:30:53,686 MISON: In this death scene, this... I think is the first... 575 00:30:53,770 --> 00:30:56,231 The first time... Is it the first time I call him captain? 576 00:30:56,314 --> 00:30:58,191 Orlando and I discussed it, 577 00:30:58,274 --> 00:31:01,611 and I really wanted to refer to him as captain, 578 00:31:02,612 --> 00:31:06,157 and treat him like a fellow officer, 579 00:31:06,241 --> 00:31:09,160 an officer of equal rank dying on the battlefield. 580 00:31:09,244 --> 00:31:13,081 GOFFMAN: A soldier. Yeah. I thought that was really, really moving. 581 00:31:15,041 --> 00:31:17,585 Just really fantastic performances here. 582 00:31:17,710 --> 00:31:19,003 You fight. 583 00:31:19,462 --> 00:31:21,172 You're a captain, you fight. 584 00:31:21,256 --> 00:31:23,341 Yes, you fight. 585 00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:25,802 (BREATHING SHAKILY) 586 00:31:25,885 --> 00:31:27,136 (INAUDlBLE) 587 00:31:33,643 --> 00:31:35,937 GOFFMAN: You know, it was funny because 588 00:31:36,020 --> 00:31:38,314 as emotional and impactful as we wanted it, 589 00:31:38,398 --> 00:31:40,525 and again the cost of the sword, 590 00:31:40,608 --> 00:31:45,154 and to really show the toll it had taken on our team. 591 00:31:45,238 --> 00:31:48,992 Also, you know, we knew that he was coming back in the very next episode. 592 00:31:50,326 --> 00:31:53,580 But it was something we had to conceal for over a month 593 00:31:53,663 --> 00:31:56,583 since we were off the air for the next five weeks. 594 00:31:59,168 --> 00:32:01,421 MISON: Another moment of firsts, I think that's the first time 595 00:32:01,504 --> 00:32:04,591 - Ichabod has touched Abbie. - Hmm. 596 00:32:04,674 --> 00:32:06,801 MISON: It's almost always her touching him. 597 00:32:07,427 --> 00:32:11,014 And this, to look out for her. 598 00:32:11,097 --> 00:32:14,392 He grabs hold of her, which is something he would never normally do. 599 00:32:16,102 --> 00:32:18,229 - That was nice. - GOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah. 600 00:32:18,313 --> 00:32:20,607 And we played that scene, that was MOS, 601 00:32:20,690 --> 00:32:24,360 just with, again, our brilliant composers coming up with a score 602 00:32:24,444 --> 00:32:26,487 that kind of swept us into the scene. 603 00:32:27,530 --> 00:32:28,698 We lost him. 604 00:32:29,032 --> 00:32:30,658 JENNY: Is he really gone? 605 00:32:32,827 --> 00:32:34,078 KATRINA: He saved our lives. 606 00:32:34,495 --> 00:32:36,080 He died a hero. 607 00:32:36,164 --> 00:32:38,166 And in his name, we soldier on. 608 00:32:38,249 --> 00:32:40,460 GOFFMAN: It gave a nice moment also to separate 609 00:32:40,543 --> 00:32:43,087 Crane being there with Irving's death, 610 00:32:43,171 --> 00:32:47,967 and then being able to tell Abbie about it afterwards. 611 00:32:48,051 --> 00:32:49,969 And then to, sort of, unpack it here. 612 00:32:51,679 --> 00:32:55,850 That was another, you know... It's funny 'cause people ask, you know. 613 00:32:55,933 --> 00:32:58,061 Some people had talked about that battle scene 614 00:32:58,144 --> 00:33:01,689 and Nicole's or Abbie's... 615 00:33:02,690 --> 00:33:05,943 The fact that she was out of that scene, very quickly. 616 00:33:06,027 --> 00:33:09,072 This is something in the chaos of production 617 00:33:09,155 --> 00:33:10,865 and we're shooting multiple episodes at a time. 618 00:33:10,948 --> 00:33:12,950 There's so much production going on. 619 00:33:13,868 --> 00:33:16,412 The schedule's created so that, you know, 620 00:33:16,496 --> 00:33:19,123 we only have a certain amount of time with each actor. 621 00:33:19,207 --> 00:33:22,502 And I thought it actually worked very elegantly with the story 622 00:33:22,585 --> 00:33:27,090 to then have her in here with Jenny and getting these separate moments. 623 00:33:27,256 --> 00:33:28,758 ...other than this moment. 624 00:33:28,883 --> 00:33:32,387 And then building up to this where, you know, Abbie really rallies the troop. 625 00:33:33,346 --> 00:33:34,597 It's not just you. 626 00:33:34,681 --> 00:33:36,015 All of us, here... 627 00:33:36,182 --> 00:33:37,558 MISON: And it's very typical of the two of them 628 00:33:37,642 --> 00:33:40,561 to have an argument about who sacrifices themselves. 629 00:33:41,187 --> 00:33:42,230 GOFFMAN: Yeah. 630 00:33:42,855 --> 00:33:44,691 And that was another thing in this episode, though. 631 00:33:44,774 --> 00:33:50,780 We've seen both of them willing to make a sacrifice of themselves, you know. 632 00:33:51,614 --> 00:33:54,784 Crane many times starting, you know, with the Sin Eater, 633 00:33:55,368 --> 00:33:57,286 willing to make that ultimate sacrifice. 634 00:33:57,370 --> 00:33:59,914 And Abbie willing to spend time in Purgatory. 635 00:33:59,997 --> 00:34:04,585 This episode it's, you know, can you sacrifice someone you love? 636 00:34:04,669 --> 00:34:07,964 Are you willing to make that sacrifice? Is Crane willing to sacrifice Henry? 637 00:34:08,047 --> 00:34:09,173 I am not gonna let Moloch 638 00:34:09,257 --> 00:34:11,467 take another soul from this earth. 639 00:34:11,676 --> 00:34:15,430 MISON: I do like that Abbie, you know, puts up a very, very good argument 640 00:34:15,513 --> 00:34:19,225 and says that she's gonna be first, and when she falls, Ichabod takes it, 641 00:34:19,308 --> 00:34:21,394 and when Ichabod falls, the next one. 642 00:34:21,477 --> 00:34:22,520 GOFFMAN: Mmm-hmm. 643 00:34:23,062 --> 00:34:24,147 (MOLOCH ROARING) 644 00:34:24,272 --> 00:34:27,233 MISON: But then in the actual plan, Ichabod has the sword. 645 00:34:27,316 --> 00:34:30,153 I love that she rallies with, "I'm gonna do it." 646 00:34:30,945 --> 00:34:34,240 But actually, "Here, you take it, you take it. You put up a good fight as well." 647 00:34:34,741 --> 00:34:35,783 GOFFMAN: Yeah. 648 00:34:35,867 --> 00:34:38,953 Well, she's got the opening salvo in this scene, so... 649 00:34:39,370 --> 00:34:41,914 That's why she says, "There, you haven't heard my plan. 650 00:34:41,998 --> 00:34:43,458 (LAUGHS) 651 00:34:44,542 --> 00:34:46,961 "I'm willing to do it, but so must you." 652 00:34:47,503 --> 00:34:49,005 You would have me die? 653 00:34:49,088 --> 00:34:51,048 There were Horsemen before you, there will be Horsemen after. 654 00:34:51,132 --> 00:34:53,217 And then Henry, of course, learning. 655 00:34:53,301 --> 00:34:56,304 He, you know, on the opposite end of the spectrum, 656 00:34:56,387 --> 00:35:00,558 not willing to sacrifice yourself, Moloch says, "Hey, this is all about me. 657 00:35:01,184 --> 00:35:04,604 "There've been other Horsemen before you. There'll be others after you. 658 00:35:05,188 --> 00:35:07,106 "You've served your purpose now. 659 00:35:07,190 --> 00:35:10,860 "And now becomes my time and you should just be happy 660 00:35:10,943 --> 00:35:12,779 "that you got the chance to serve me." 661 00:35:12,862 --> 00:35:14,363 I will obey. 662 00:35:14,530 --> 00:35:17,033 Which is when he says, "You know what? Dad's aren't all they're cracked up to be." 663 00:35:23,539 --> 00:35:26,709 MISON: Only an actor of John Noble's caliber 664 00:35:26,793 --> 00:35:30,338 could still be intimidating whilst wearing knitwear. 665 00:35:30,421 --> 00:35:32,089 (GOFFMAN LAUGHS) 666 00:35:32,256 --> 00:35:34,634 Yeah. He's such a gift. 667 00:35:34,717 --> 00:35:35,760 - He is. - MISON: Yeah. 668 00:35:35,843 --> 00:35:37,553 GOFFMAN: He was so much fun this season. 669 00:35:40,223 --> 00:35:41,641 ABBIE: War is hell. 670 00:35:41,724 --> 00:35:43,935 And this is Saint Henry's Parish. 671 00:35:44,727 --> 00:35:48,356 This was actually a location we found in season one. 672 00:35:48,773 --> 00:35:52,401 And then, as we started to build out its significance, Jeremy came to me. 673 00:35:52,485 --> 00:35:57,281 I didn't think we'd be able to build such a, you know, fantastic location on our stages. 674 00:35:57,365 --> 00:36:00,159 But Jeremy said, "You know what? I can actually do more here." 675 00:36:00,243 --> 00:36:02,370 Let's see what you're made of, Lieutenant. 676 00:36:02,453 --> 00:36:07,750 And originally, a lot of these scenes were gonna take place exterior in the woods. 677 00:36:07,834 --> 00:36:11,796 As Tom probably knows a lot better than me, 678 00:36:11,879 --> 00:36:16,884 the woods in Wilmington, you know, especially summertime, 679 00:36:16,968 --> 00:36:19,095 are not the most pleasant place. 680 00:36:19,178 --> 00:36:23,766 And it's a little hard to control. There's a lot of bugs out there. 681 00:36:25,142 --> 00:36:30,106 It's tough. It was... You guys, I can't believe the, you know... 682 00:36:30,773 --> 00:36:34,193 What you guys do for this show is just amazing. 683 00:36:34,277 --> 00:36:37,196 MISON: I struggle to believe it as well sometimes, Mark. 684 00:36:38,281 --> 00:36:41,409 GOFFMAN: (LAUGHS) The many, many all-night shoots, just incredible. 685 00:36:41,492 --> 00:36:43,870 So, when he said we had the ability to build this, 686 00:36:43,953 --> 00:36:49,667 we actually then built it for Episode 207, and were able to keep it 687 00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:53,045 and use it as a primary location in this episode, 688 00:36:53,129 --> 00:36:57,258 which really allowed us to shoot within the number of days we had. 689 00:36:57,967 --> 00:36:59,844 It won't be that easy. 690 00:37:04,724 --> 00:37:06,225 If you want to leave here, 691 00:37:06,309 --> 00:37:08,686 your only option is to kill me, 692 00:37:08,853 --> 00:37:09,854 Father. 693 00:37:09,979 --> 00:37:11,272 Here we come to the climax. 694 00:37:11,355 --> 00:37:12,899 So here I am. 695 00:37:12,982 --> 00:37:14,025 Kill me. 696 00:37:25,661 --> 00:37:26,996 You see it. 697 00:37:27,622 --> 00:37:29,457 MISON: That shot, bringing us back into that scene, 698 00:37:29,540 --> 00:37:34,378 that's the sort of shot that we probably couldn't have done if we were on location. 699 00:37:34,462 --> 00:37:39,216 It's another benefit of building on a stage 700 00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:45,556 - is it's ours to play around with. - Oh, yeah. It's so much easier to control. 701 00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:48,893 MISON: The episode with the Aurora Borealis, 702 00:37:48,976 --> 00:37:51,270 pregnant with baby Moloch episode, 703 00:37:51,354 --> 00:37:53,648 that was a scene with the Aurora at the end 704 00:37:53,731 --> 00:37:56,901 that couldn't have been done if we were on location. 705 00:37:56,984 --> 00:37:59,612 So we're again very lucky that we have someone like Jeremy 706 00:37:59,695 --> 00:38:01,447 who can build sets like this. 707 00:38:01,530 --> 00:38:03,282 GOFFMAN: Yeah and it just, it looks fantastic. 708 00:38:03,366 --> 00:38:08,120 It looks, in fact, I think better than actually had we been on location. 709 00:38:08,746 --> 00:38:12,291 And, you know, as you said the camera angles we're able to get, 710 00:38:12,625 --> 00:38:14,168 just really work. 711 00:38:14,835 --> 00:38:16,379 A mighty ram. 712 00:38:17,213 --> 00:38:18,965 - Moloch... - Moloch. 713 00:38:19,507 --> 00:38:20,841 My son, 714 00:38:21,342 --> 00:38:22,343 let me pass 715 00:38:23,552 --> 00:38:25,763 and I will dispatch Moloch to hell 716 00:38:25,846 --> 00:38:27,056 and you will be free 717 00:38:27,306 --> 00:38:29,058 to live a life of your making, 718 00:38:29,183 --> 00:38:30,977 not a pawn in his game. 719 00:38:31,060 --> 00:38:33,145 GOFFMAN: This is where we hear the story of The Akeda. 720 00:38:33,229 --> 00:38:37,525 And, you know, it conveniently worked out that Moloch has horns like a ram. 721 00:38:37,608 --> 00:38:40,736 We were able to use that part of the story. God provided a ram. 722 00:38:40,820 --> 00:38:43,239 ...while you go face Moloch and die? 723 00:38:43,322 --> 00:38:45,032 That is what sacrifice is. 724 00:38:45,449 --> 00:38:47,118 And again, and Henry realizing, 725 00:38:47,201 --> 00:38:50,371 that it's interesting for him to realize in this moment that his parents 726 00:38:50,454 --> 00:38:52,039 have not given up hope yet. 727 00:38:52,123 --> 00:38:56,752 And that they still, you know, despite the evidence are willing to believe 728 00:38:56,877 --> 00:39:01,298 that he wants family as much as they do. 729 00:39:01,757 --> 00:39:05,594 And they have this unconditional love that only a parent can have for a child. 730 00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:11,350 MISON: Don't look at Katrina. Never look at Katrina, for God's sake. 731 00:39:11,434 --> 00:39:13,769 GOFFMAN: All it takes is that one moment. 732 00:39:14,186 --> 00:39:15,312 Oh, Crane. 733 00:39:15,396 --> 00:39:17,273 I can wield this with impunity. 734 00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:20,985 Faith, hope and charity, 735 00:39:21,068 --> 00:39:24,780 the Holy Trinity has brought you to your knees again, Father. 736 00:39:24,864 --> 00:39:25,865 (BREATHING SHAKILY) 737 00:39:26,115 --> 00:39:27,116 Come. 738 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,577 Moloch is waiting. 739 00:39:32,455 --> 00:39:36,208 GOFFMAN: And this sequence here, we wanted to set up that this is now... 740 00:39:36,292 --> 00:39:42,048 Earth is really merging with Purgatory. There are beings that escaped. 741 00:39:42,131 --> 00:39:44,550 And so that shadow that we ran across 742 00:39:44,633 --> 00:39:46,385 was helping to set up in the rest of the season 743 00:39:46,469 --> 00:39:52,725 that we might see new creatures, new beings that were able to come through 744 00:39:52,808 --> 00:39:56,020 in this brief moment before Moloch died. 745 00:39:56,103 --> 00:39:57,897 MOLOCH: Kill the witch. 746 00:39:58,272 --> 00:40:01,317 - Oh, whoops, I gave away the ending. - MISON: Oh, Mark. 747 00:40:05,154 --> 00:40:06,238 But she is Abraham's. 748 00:40:06,322 --> 00:40:08,616 Abraham failed. He gets nothing. 749 00:40:08,699 --> 00:40:10,659 The witch dies first. 750 00:40:11,744 --> 00:40:15,748 GOFFMAN: And here in this we wanted to... Since Moloch was about to end, 751 00:40:15,831 --> 00:40:20,503 we wanted to really kind of showcase him and let everybody see him in his full glory. 752 00:40:21,629 --> 00:40:22,630 Now. 753 00:40:22,713 --> 00:40:24,048 (THUNDER CRASHING) 754 00:40:24,507 --> 00:40:26,675 GOFFMAN: I don't know what they put in his mouth to make... 755 00:40:26,759 --> 00:40:32,348 It's just... It's pretty gross what this actor has to go through. 756 00:40:33,891 --> 00:40:38,354 It's hours and hours of makeup in there as, Tom, you know, too. 757 00:40:38,437 --> 00:40:43,025 I mean, to prepare the creatures on this show 758 00:40:43,109 --> 00:40:44,610 and even in your costume, 759 00:40:44,693 --> 00:40:48,656 just everything on this show is just incredibly time-intensive. 760 00:40:48,739 --> 00:40:51,659 MISON: Yeah, every time we look at the call sheet and see, 761 00:40:51,742 --> 00:40:54,036 we've got a 5:30 pick up. 762 00:40:55,329 --> 00:40:58,332 We can never complain nor roll our eyes or sigh 763 00:40:58,415 --> 00:41:01,710 because you look at Marti and Derek or any of the creature guys 764 00:41:01,794 --> 00:41:05,673 and they're in at 3:00, 3:30, start putting it on. 765 00:41:05,756 --> 00:41:08,300 The story of a cruel and merciless God 766 00:41:08,384 --> 00:41:11,095 who designed a cruel and merciless world. 767 00:41:11,428 --> 00:41:13,472 MISON: Nothing like a John Noble speech in the woods. 768 00:41:13,556 --> 00:41:15,432 Who could worship a deity 769 00:41:15,516 --> 00:41:19,061 who commands a man to sacrifice his own son? 770 00:41:19,937 --> 00:41:22,648 - Those days have come to an end. - (SNARLING) 771 00:41:24,108 --> 00:41:26,610 GOFFMAN: Tom, your performance is just fantastic in this episode. 772 00:41:26,694 --> 00:41:30,906 - Every episode, but this really... - It's because I'm not saying very much. 773 00:41:31,073 --> 00:41:32,241 (GOFFMAN CHUCKLES) 774 00:41:32,491 --> 00:41:33,909 - MISON: Thanks. - (BOTH LAUGHING) 775 00:41:35,911 --> 00:41:38,247 GOFFMAN: But that's, you know, it's funny, you say that, though. 776 00:41:38,581 --> 00:41:42,960 I'm always amazed at finding a lot of times 777 00:41:43,043 --> 00:41:49,133 fewer words suffice 'cause you can do so much with your expressions. 778 00:41:52,511 --> 00:41:54,597 MISON: I find the same with Nicole as well. 779 00:41:56,473 --> 00:42:00,060 It's always... Well, actually with every, you know, we've got a great cast, 780 00:42:00,644 --> 00:42:06,025 - who can all say a lot with a look. - Yeah, they really can. 781 00:42:06,108 --> 00:42:09,153 MISON: I had no idea what look to give here when we just had 782 00:42:09,236 --> 00:42:11,030 Dwight behind the camera saying, 783 00:42:11,113 --> 00:42:14,992 "And Moloch's turning to flames and is growling. 784 00:42:15,075 --> 00:42:16,410 "And then he's dead." 785 00:42:19,747 --> 00:42:22,333 Well, it was nice to be reminded of that episode. 786 00:42:22,458 --> 00:42:23,959 (BOTH LAUGHING) 787 00:42:25,669 --> 00:42:29,089 GOFFMAN: Yeah, that was fun. That was. It was an intense one.