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dramatic music

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[Isobel VO] Under          
       Pakistan's constitution,

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insulting Islam or         
         the Prophet Muhammad

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could be punishable         
         by a death sentence.

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[Isobel VO] The conservative    
          extreme has become

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mainstream.

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You just have to speak and...    
              [snaps]

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the life of a           
          person is finished.

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[Isobel VO] Is that true?

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[Alzo VO] Nearly 90 percent    
       of landlords use criminal

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background checks in        
 determining tenant eligibility.

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It disproportionately        
       affects people of color.

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I was getting denied        
    before I even seen the unit.

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[man] Housing is a human right!

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[crowd] Fight, fight, fight!

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Look, this is            
        not discrimination,

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this is reality!

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You are punishing          
         entire families!

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[Chanel VO] There has       
         to be a cutoff point.

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When do people get         
         to redeem themselves?

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When?!

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dramatic theme music

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[shouting]

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Hoorah!

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[blasts]

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-tense music           
           -[crowd chanting]

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[chanting continues]

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[Isobel VO] All these people    
      have come to the shrine of

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Mumtaz Qadri to           
        commemorate his death.

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Qadri was found guilty and     
      executed for the murder of

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Salman Taseer, the influential 
     governor of Punjab Province in

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Pakistan.

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Qadri assassinated governor    
     Taseer in 2011 for advocating

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for the loosening of Pakistan's   
 strict laws against blasphemy.

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Under Pakistan's constitution, 
     insulting Islam or the Prophet

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is considered blasphemous,

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and could be            
 punishable by a death sentence.

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Religious hardliners like these   
 consider blasphemy a legitimate

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reason for murder,

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and they take the law       
         into their own hands.

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Are a lot of people here   
         inspired by Mumtaz Qadri?

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[Isobel VO] The assassination   
     of Governor Taseer made Mumtaz

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Qadri a hero and a martyr.

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His 12-year-old son has       
 become the spokesperson for his

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father's legacy.

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Why is it that all these people   
 have come to show their respects

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to your dad?

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Would you do the same thing?

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tense music

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[Isobel VO] The assassination   
       of Governor Salman Taseer

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sparked a far-right        
      political movement known as

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Tehreek-e-Labbaik, or TLP.

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Founded in 2015, the TLP      
 Party has weaponized blasphemy,

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pushed mainstream          
 political parties to the right,

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and forced Pakistan's last two 
     governments to accept its more

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radical agenda, while        
     threatening to protect Islam

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beyond Pakistan's borders.

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[Isobel VO] Pakistani       
     extremists have been linked to

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the 2020 attack on         
        Charlie Hebdo in Paris,

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and the former leader of the    
     TLP pledged to use Pakistan's

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nuclear arsenal to wipe the    
      Netherlands off the map for

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allegedly defaming         
         the Prophet Muhammad.

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By encouraging their followers 
 to target anyone they suspect of

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blasphemy, the TLP has caused a   
 wave of extrajudicial lynchings

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across the country.

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tense music

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This February, a 35-year-old man 
     named Mohammed Waris was found

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in possession of a         
          desecrated Quran.

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The TLP made an           
 announcement at a local mosque,

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calling on people to come out   
      and condemn the blasphemer.

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We met with the man who      
       originally accused Waris.

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ominous music

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[Isobel] So this is you taking   
     him to the police station?

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[Isobel VO] The mob        
        overpowered the police,

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dragged Waris to          
           a cricket field,

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and set him on fire.

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Do you feel guilty, given that 
     if you hadn't accused him of

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blasphemy, none of          
     this would have happened?

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[Isobel VO] About 50 men from   
     the mob have been arrested in

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connection to the         
           brutal lynching.

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Even when the accused do      
       have their day in court,

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blasphemy laws are often abused   
     to settle personal grudges.

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The number of cases        
           have skyrocketed.

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Last year alone,          
           there were 175.

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Religious minorities make up    
     less than four percent of the

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population in Pakistan, and    
 they're especially vulnerable to

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being swept up by this law.

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So we're just heading towards    
    the family of a guy called

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Patras.

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Patras has been           
       accused of blasphemy,

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and because of the         
     seriousness of that crime,

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the whole family are        
       essentially in hiding,

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so we're not able to show the    
   location that we're going to.

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We're gonna have to sneak in    
    and sneak out for their own

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security.

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[Isobel VO] Patras and his     
      family, who are Christian,

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allege that it all started     
 when he brought his phone into a

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repair shop owned by someone    
 Patras recently had an argument

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with.

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There, they claim, Photoshopped   
     images of a man stepping on a

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holy site were posted        
      from his Facebook profile.

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Patras denies he          
           ever posted them.

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He was thrown in jail, and his 
     family members have allegedly

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been harassed by the TLP      
       and tortured by Pakistani

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authorities.

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After four years in        
 prison, he was released on bail,

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and he's now in hiding.

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[Isobel] This is Patras?

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He looks so young!

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How old is he in this picture?

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What's it been like             
 visiting Patras in jail?

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What are the forces             
 that you're up against?

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Do you think you'll             
 ever see your son again?

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sparse tense music

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[Isobel VO] The justice system 
 itself is stacked against people

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like Patras.

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Those involved in defending    
 blasphemy cases are also risking

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their lives.

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Defendants and their families   
 have been assassinated in court.

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Aneeqa Maria knew the risks    
     when she took on Patras' case.

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Of the many people who are     
     behind bars right now for

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allegedly                  
 committing blasphemy...

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Mm-hm.

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What proportion of them do      
 you think have never committed

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blasphemy?

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There are 99 percent cases who   
 are people who haven't committed

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blasphemy.

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People started using it more as   
 a tool to satisfy their personal

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grudges, and then they come to   
 know that you just have to speak

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and... [snaps] the life       
      of a person is finished.

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[Isobel] Do you           
         have the evidence?

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Do you have what it was -- the   
   picture that he was accused of

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posting?

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Mm, yes.

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Yes, we have.

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[Isobel] Can I see it?

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Mm, yeah.

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This was the            
        picture in question.

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-[Isobel] This was the picture?   
          -[Aneeqa] Yes.

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[Isobel] And                 
 what's happening here,

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it's someone                 
 stepping on a minaret?

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[Aneeqa] Yeah, minaret.

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[Isobel] Someone           
        stepping on a dome.

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[Aneeqa] Mm-hm.

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So what have been the         
 challenges with Patras' case?

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Oh... [chuckles]    
               lots of challenges.

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The threat is one of the most    
   intriguing challenge that you

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have to face all the time   
       in all the blasphemy cases.

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You mean security?

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Yes.

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The opponent lawyers, they're    
     named as Khatm-e-Nubuwwat

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Law Firm, which is one of the    
     biggest law firm for TLP.

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And in the court, they      
     start shouting and they start

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threatening you, and then,   
      they try to grab the victim.

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He felt like his life was in    
    danger by showing up to the

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-court?               
 -[Aneeqa] Yes, we all felt that.

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And it is not a new thing that    
 somebody is killed in the court

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or somebody is shot dead      
       in the court premises.

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[Isobel VO] The lawyers      
        working against Aneeqa,

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the Khatm-e-Nubuwwat Group, are   
     closely aligned with the TLP.

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Their sole mission is to bring 
      blasphemy cases through the

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courts.

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Ghulam Mustafa Chaudhry is one 
 of hundreds of lawyers belonging

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00:10:16,824 --> 00:10:20,786
to this group, and is pressing 
        charges against Patras.

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00:10:20,828 --> 00:10:24,373
A lot of human rights groups     
   say that most of the cases of

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people accused of blasphemy are   
 either people of minority groups

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and/or facing the            
 fallout of personal grudges.

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Is that true?

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Well, I wanna talk, then,      
 about the case of Patras Masih,

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who was accused of          
 blasphemy when he was just 16.

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You would know this          
 because you're representing--

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I don't know where         
        he is, and if I did,

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I wouldn't be at liberty to say.

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But he doesn't feel like it's     
 even safe to show up to court.

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You know, his            
       family are in hiding.

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They fear their own lives.

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Are your people intimidating and 
 pressuring those who are accused

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of blasphemy?

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From what I understand,       
     from looking at the case,

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it seems like there was just    
     that one post on Facebook.

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Do you think for that one post,   
 he should be sentenced to death?

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tense music

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[Isobel VO] With the        
      forces working against him,

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Patras is left           
         running for his life.

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I know you can't tell me          
 where you are right now,

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but how are you feeling       
    about everything right now?

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Your lawyer was able to get     
 you released from jail on bail,

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and you're now in hiding.

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00:11:59,135 --> 00:12:02,388
Why is it you're not        
     facing the justice system?

190
00:12:18,946 --> 00:12:21,073
[Isobel VO] Patras'         
         fears are justified.

191
00:12:21,115 --> 00:12:23,868
Pakistan's political        
         climate has shifted.

192
00:12:23,909 --> 00:12:27,580
The conservative extreme      
        has become mainstream.

193
00:12:28,330 --> 00:12:32,084
In January, the parliament of   
     Pakistan voted to expand the

194
00:12:32,126 --> 00:12:34,503
blasphemy laws even further.

195
00:12:34,545 --> 00:12:37,256
Now, anyone who insults not    
      just the Prophet Muhammad,

196
00:12:37,298 --> 00:12:39,759
but also his wives         
          or his companions,

197
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,761
could face a            
            life sentence.

198
00:12:41,802 --> 00:12:45,598
The conservative MP who brought   
 this law forward faced almost no

199
00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:46,974
opposition.

200
00:12:47,016 --> 00:12:50,936
Is there more personal gain for   
 you to be had from pushing these

201
00:12:50,978 --> 00:12:54,440
laws through, versus        
   actual benefit for the masses?

202
00:12:54,482 --> 00:12:55,941
I mean, it's helped get         
 your name in the headlines,

203
00:12:55,983 --> 00:12:58,402
it's helped you win support...

204
00:13:07,995 --> 00:13:10,956
But, I mean, the fact that      
   you have expanded these laws,

205
00:13:10,998 --> 00:13:13,876
does that not mean that these     
 laws are likely to get abused

206
00:13:13,918 --> 00:13:15,169
more and more?

207
00:13:27,973 --> 00:13:29,934
But can you understand        
     the alternative argument,

208
00:13:29,975 --> 00:13:33,187
which is that it is the laws    
 themselves that are the problem?

209
00:13:52,873 --> 00:13:55,668
That sounds like somewhat of a   
   sweeping generalization to say

210
00:13:55,709 --> 00:13:58,629
that [chuckles] minorities      
   are happy with this law when,

211
00:13:58,671 --> 00:14:00,297
you know, there are         
        a lot of Christians,

212
00:14:00,339 --> 00:14:04,593
a lot of other minorities who I   
   think live in total fear that

213
00:14:04,635 --> 00:14:07,221
they may be the next to           
 be accused of blasphemy.

214
00:14:25,739 --> 00:14:30,744
moody electronic music

215
00:14:31,662 --> 00:14:36,709
sparse tense music

216
00:14:38,711 --> 00:14:41,714
This bill, as it's         
        being presented today,

217
00:14:41,755 --> 00:14:45,217
would allow violent offenders    
   to share the floorspace with

218
00:14:45,259 --> 00:14:46,844
unknowing residents.

219
00:14:46,886 --> 00:14:49,054
There are consequences       
       for breaking the law,

220
00:14:49,096 --> 00:14:53,225
and we need to make public      
 safety a priority once again in

221
00:14:53,267 --> 00:14:54,393
this city.

222
00:14:54,435 --> 00:14:55,519
-[applause]             
       -[man] Quite, please!

223
00:14:55,561 --> 00:15:00,524
You are taking away the       
      rights of the landlords.

224
00:15:00,566 --> 00:15:02,610
Are we talking about murderers   
    that are gonna come and live

225
00:15:02,651 --> 00:15:03,819
next door to us?

226
00:15:03,861 --> 00:15:05,279
Look, this is not          
          discrimination,

227
00:15:05,321 --> 00:15:06,989
this is reality!

228
00:15:07,031 --> 00:15:08,908
[Lizzy] I'm 53 years old.

229
00:15:14,079 --> 00:15:16,498
What can I do to hurt anyone?    
    [inhales sharply, sniffles]

230
00:15:16,540 --> 00:15:19,043
And I'm still being         
 excluded from housing because of

231
00:15:19,084 --> 00:15:21,045
something that            
       happened decades ago.

232
00:15:21,086 --> 00:15:23,088
[Jorge] I've been out of      
      prison for 15 years now.

233
00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:25,841
I can't even be sure of securing 
   rental housing and I could end

234
00:15:25,883 --> 00:15:28,052
up on the streets          
        at any given moment.

235
00:15:28,093 --> 00:15:30,387
This is not just a         
         New York problem.

236
00:15:30,763 --> 00:15:32,932
This is an American crisis.

237
00:15:32,973 --> 00:15:34,266
[man] Housing is a human right!

238
00:15:34,308 --> 00:15:35,935
[crowd] Fight, fight, fight!

239
00:15:35,976 --> 00:15:37,269
[man] Housing is a human right!

240
00:15:37,311 --> 00:15:39,063
[crowd] Fight, fight, fight!

241
00:15:39,104 --> 00:15:41,065
[Alzo VO] New York City is     
     considering legislation that

242
00:15:41,106 --> 00:15:44,109
would prohibit landlords from   
 using criminal background checks

243
00:15:44,151 --> 00:15:45,694
in approving tenants.

244
00:15:45,736 --> 00:15:48,739
According to a report from the 
     National Consumer Law Center,

245
00:15:48,781 --> 00:15:51,951
it's standard practice for     
 nearly 90 percent of landlords.

246
00:15:51,992 --> 00:15:54,119
But these reports          
        are largely automated,

247
00:15:54,161 --> 00:15:56,956
and without federal regulations   
        or industry standards,

248
00:15:56,997 --> 00:16:00,459
background check companies may 
     undergo only minimal -- if any

249
00:16:00,501 --> 00:16:03,420
-- manual review, leading to    
      potentially inaccurate and

250
00:16:03,462 --> 00:16:05,047
unreliable reports.

251
00:16:05,089 --> 00:16:07,466
Set that against a criminal     
     justice system that's pretty

252
00:16:07,508 --> 00:16:10,135
much racist, and you        
         can see the problem:

253
00:16:10,177 --> 00:16:12,680
people of color being gatekept 
      out of the most competitive

254
00:16:12,721 --> 00:16:14,098
neighborhoods.

255
00:16:14,139 --> 00:16:17,142
The US Department of Housing    
 and Urban Development has twice

256
00:16:17,184 --> 00:16:19,895
cautioned landlords against    
 making wholesale decisions based

257
00:16:19,937 --> 00:16:21,355
on criminal history...

258
00:16:21,397 --> 00:16:24,149
but have yet to make        
         the practice illegal.

259
00:16:24,692 --> 00:16:27,069
Chanel Rhymes is one of       
      countless Americans saying

260
00:16:27,111 --> 00:16:29,363
they're still            
        being denied outright.

261
00:16:29,405 --> 00:16:32,574
In her 20s and 30s, she was    
     convicted of low-level charges

262
00:16:32,616 --> 00:16:34,993
that resulted in          
         two days' jail time,

263
00:16:35,035 --> 00:16:36,953
four months of           
      electronic home monitoring,

264
00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:38,998
and community service.

265
00:16:39,039 --> 00:16:42,418
Today, at 40, she's the director 
       of a non-profit and works

266
00:16:42,459 --> 00:16:45,254
closely with the          
         state of Washington.

267
00:16:45,295 --> 00:16:47,006
[Alzo] In              
      applying for apartments,

268
00:16:47,047 --> 00:16:49,799
you knew that they were gonna 
     look at your criminal record.

269
00:16:49,842 --> 00:16:51,343
Mm-hm.

270
00:16:51,385 --> 00:16:52,970
You say you tried to compensate 
    for that by providing all of

271
00:16:53,011 --> 00:16:57,141
these things -- certificates,    
   awards -- that you've earned

272
00:16:57,182 --> 00:16:58,767
over the past few years.

273
00:16:58,809 --> 00:16:59,685
Yup.

274
00:16:59,727 --> 00:17:00,602
What were some of those things?

275
00:17:00,644 --> 00:17:01,270
[Chanel] Let's see.

276
00:17:01,311 --> 00:17:02,855
I got...

277
00:17:02,896 --> 00:17:05,941
a letter appointing me to the    
 joint legislative task force...

278
00:17:05,983 --> 00:17:07,735
a letter from the            
 Department of Corrections...

279
00:17:07,776 --> 00:17:09,486
So this comes from the     
      Department of Corrections...

280
00:17:09,528 --> 00:17:10,904
[Chanel] Oh, yeah, mm-hm!

281
00:17:10,946 --> 00:17:13,115
Saying that [chuckling]    
        you are a stellar citizen?

282
00:17:13,157 --> 00:17:14,199
[Chanel] Mm-hm, mm-hm.

283
00:17:14,241 --> 00:17:15,743
My degree from Evergreen.

284
00:17:15,784 --> 00:17:19,163
Columbia -- I did the         
 Women Transcending Collective

285
00:17:19,204 --> 00:17:20,956
Leadership Institute.

286
00:17:20,998 --> 00:17:22,332
[Alzo] You         
          presented all of this...

287
00:17:22,374 --> 00:17:23,250
[Chanel] Mm-hm.

288
00:17:23,292 --> 00:17:24,126
[Alzo] With your 
                  applications...

289
00:17:24,168 --> 00:17:25,002
[Chanel] Mm-hm.

290
00:17:25,044 --> 00:17:26,378
And they said no?

291
00:17:26,420 --> 00:17:27,337
Yeah.

292
00:17:27,379 --> 00:17:28,672
Right.

293
00:17:28,714 --> 00:17:31,133
How many times have you   
         been denied an apartment?

294
00:17:31,175 --> 00:17:32,009
Eight?

295
00:17:32,051 --> 00:17:33,343
-Eight times?            
          -[Chanel] Mm-hm.

296
00:17:33,385 --> 00:17:36,346
I was getting denied          
 before I even seen the unit.

297
00:17:36,388 --> 00:17:38,557
Do you feel...

298
00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:42,978
locked in with this apartment 
     and this landlord because you

299
00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:44,772
-can't find somewhere else...    
               -Yes!

300
00:17:44,813 --> 00:17:45,856
[Alzo] Because of    
             your criminal record?

301
00:17:45,898 --> 00:17:46,815
Yes.

302
00:17:46,857 --> 00:17:48,817
I don't wanna get in 
              your pockets but...

303
00:17:48,859 --> 00:17:51,236
how much has the   
                 rent been raised?

304
00:17:51,278 --> 00:17:53,072
So, I started out at 1325.

305
00:17:53,113 --> 00:17:54,823
I now pay 2600.

306
00:17:54,865 --> 00:17:57,034
And I feel locked                 
 into everything.

307
00:17:57,076 --> 00:18:01,371
If I can't lower my rent,         
 I can't pay other things,

308
00:18:01,413 --> 00:18:03,540
I can't improve my             
 credit score, I can't...

309
00:18:03,582 --> 00:18:05,209
It's a circle.

310
00:18:05,250 --> 00:18:07,336
I'm locked in with everything.

311
00:18:07,377 --> 00:18:09,213
How long do people                
   have to do that?

312
00:18:09,254 --> 00:18:10,839
How long do people                
    have to say--

313
00:18:10,881 --> 00:18:13,050
So once you do                 
 something, you're...

314
00:18:13,092 --> 00:18:15,219
that's it forever?

315
00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:16,637
There has to be a cutoff point.

316
00:18:16,678 --> 00:18:19,014
When do people get               
 to redeem themselves?

317
00:18:19,056 --> 00:18:20,682
When?!

318
00:18:20,933 --> 00:18:23,268
[Alzo VO] A handful of       
       progressive cities agree.

319
00:18:23,310 --> 00:18:26,188
Oakland, Berkeley, Seattle,    
 and Portland have already passed

320
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:30,234
their own versions of the      
 Fair Chance Housing ordinances.

321
00:18:30,275 --> 00:18:33,403
[Alzo] Seattle banned criminal    
 background checks back in 2017.

322
00:18:33,445 --> 00:18:36,615
We're here to meet with       
   landlords who say it's bad for

323
00:18:36,657 --> 00:18:39,201
both business and public safety.

324
00:18:39,243 --> 00:18:42,246
[Riz VO] This is          
      crazy; it's totally crazy.

325
00:18:42,287 --> 00:18:46,041
You know, you don't know who's 
     living right next door to you.

326
00:18:46,083 --> 00:18:48,627
Is it a murderer, thief, robber?

327
00:18:48,669 --> 00:18:52,631
You know, I know petty     
       theft, a parking violation,

328
00:18:52,673 --> 00:18:55,467
a speeding ticket,    
            that's very different.

329
00:18:55,509 --> 00:18:58,137
But you need to know    
           who's your neighbor is.

330
00:18:58,178 --> 00:19:00,472
[Alzo VO] Riz Samad couldn't    
 run a background check when he

331
00:19:00,514 --> 00:19:03,058
rented his             
        property in early 2020.

332
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:05,602
He ended up approving the     
      application of a man with a

333
00:19:05,644 --> 00:19:07,271
lengthy criminal background.

334
00:19:07,312 --> 00:19:09,898
But because of Seattle's      
 strong tenant protections and a

335
00:19:09,940 --> 00:19:14,236
backlogged housing court, Riz     
 hasn't been able to evict him.

336
00:19:14,278 --> 00:19:15,821
[Riz] He's a violent person.

337
00:19:15,863 --> 00:19:19,241
I only begged him to    
          not destroy my property,

338
00:19:19,283 --> 00:19:22,661
do not make noise, do not      
   motorbike in the middle of the

339
00:19:22,703 --> 00:19:25,080
night, do not create fear.

340
00:19:25,122 --> 00:19:28,876
And in a result of that, his 
       friend pulled a gun on us,

341
00:19:28,917 --> 00:19:30,127
you know?

342
00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:33,338
And basically, I wired   
          my house, I got all the,

343
00:19:33,380 --> 00:19:35,090
you know, cameras    
             and all those things,

344
00:19:35,132 --> 00:19:37,467
and he's telling me, "I 
            know where you live."

345
00:19:37,509 --> 00:19:39,178
-[generator whirrs]         
         -It looks like...

346
00:19:39,219 --> 00:19:40,554
somebody just...

347
00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:43,307
came out here and               
 turned a generator on.

348
00:19:43,348 --> 00:19:44,641
[Riz] Oh, yeah!

349
00:19:44,683 --> 00:19:47,352
They start bringing         
    generator, which runs 24/7.

350
00:19:47,394 --> 00:19:50,105
So there's no power in the        
 house except for what these

351
00:19:50,147 --> 00:19:51,315
-generators bring?         
          -No, generator.

352
00:19:51,356 --> 00:19:53,275
So there was the one   
            generator in the back,

353
00:19:53,317 --> 00:19:55,194
which burned all this thing.

354
00:19:55,235 --> 00:19:59,114
This burnt hut right here      
    is a result of a generator?

355
00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:00,157
Yes.

356
00:20:00,199 --> 00:20:02,534
And it's still I   
                can't do anything.

357
00:20:02,576 --> 00:20:04,536
If I had a little                
 money in my pocket,

358
00:20:04,578 --> 00:20:06,538
and I said, "I                
 wanna move to Seattle,

359
00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:10,542
buy some property, and          
 rent it out to tenants...?"

360
00:20:10,584 --> 00:20:14,338
I'll say, "For God's sake,   
       [chuckling] do not invest a

361
00:20:14,379 --> 00:20:16,381
penny in Seattle!"

362
00:20:16,423 --> 00:20:18,550
[Alzo VO] Recent figures      
     show that 14 percent of small

363
00:20:18,592 --> 00:20:21,220
landlord-owned units fell off   
 the market since the Fair Chance

364
00:20:21,261 --> 00:20:23,013
Housing Act was passed.

365
00:20:23,055 --> 00:20:25,390
The dip highlights one of the   
        unintended consequences

366
00:20:25,432 --> 00:20:27,392
of Fair Chance legislation:

367
00:20:27,434 --> 00:20:29,853
by forcing small-scale       
          landlords to sell,

368
00:20:29,895 --> 00:20:32,231
some of the most affordable    
     housing units are being wiped

369
00:20:32,272 --> 00:20:34,024
off the market.

370
00:20:34,066 --> 00:20:37,236
Marilyn Yim and her husband    
 filed a lawsuit against the city

371
00:20:37,277 --> 00:20:39,446
in an attempt to help --      
          as she puts it --

372
00:20:39,488 --> 00:20:40,906
"the little guys stay in."

373
00:20:40,948 --> 00:20:44,785
Walk me through what made you    
 want to sue the city of Seattle.

374
00:20:44,826 --> 00:20:47,079
It impacts our ability to      
   continue providing housing as

375
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,290
small landlords, and especially   
 with our situation of living in

376
00:20:50,332 --> 00:20:54,419
the same property -- the      
    same home -- as our tenants.

377
00:20:54,461 --> 00:20:57,589
I'm not sure if anyone       
    listening to this would find

378
00:20:57,631 --> 00:20:59,800
what you're saying          
        to be unreasonable.

379
00:20:59,841 --> 00:21:03,220
I think there's also the idea 
     that people will use criminal

380
00:21:03,262 --> 00:21:05,555
background records         
          to discriminate.

381
00:21:05,597 --> 00:21:06,765
Right.

382
00:21:06,807 --> 00:21:08,016
Are you able to        
        understand that side of...

383
00:21:08,058 --> 00:21:09,434
-[Marilyn] Of course.        
            -Of things?

384
00:21:09,476 --> 00:21:11,436
I do think that most of       
 these laws have come from a good

385
00:21:11,478 --> 00:21:12,604
place.

386
00:21:12,646 --> 00:21:15,440
It's trying to correct            
 for systemic racism...

387
00:21:15,482 --> 00:21:17,776
-Mm-hm.               
       -Bias, discrimination.

388
00:21:17,818 --> 00:21:19,444
There are some unfair        
       practices out there,

389
00:21:19,486 --> 00:21:20,070
-absolutely.             
           -[Alzo] Yeah.

390
00:21:20,112 --> 00:21:22,781
I do want people to be       
       protected by the law.

391
00:21:22,823 --> 00:21:24,241
Yeah.

392
00:21:24,283 --> 00:21:26,285
Seattle's law, though,       
 prohibits us from even accessing

393
00:21:26,326 --> 00:21:27,452
public records.

394
00:21:27,494 --> 00:21:30,038
It doesn't matter how             
 violent, how recent,

395
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,790
-how consistent...         
           -[Alzo] Mm-hm.

396
00:21:31,832 --> 00:21:36,128
Escalating, you know, that     
   somebody's criminal record has

397
00:21:36,169 --> 00:21:37,462
been.

398
00:21:38,088 --> 00:21:40,799
[Alzo] Housing discrimination   
           forces limits on

399
00:21:40,841 --> 00:21:42,467
where people can live.

400
00:21:42,509 --> 00:21:45,345
Those limits have          
     significant consequences.

401
00:21:45,387 --> 00:21:48,473
We're here at Harvard to chat    
   with Dr. Raj Chetty about the

402
00:21:48,515 --> 00:21:53,312
work he and his team are doing   
   to show why and how zip codes

403
00:21:53,353 --> 00:21:55,105
actually matter.

404
00:21:55,147 --> 00:21:57,149
There's this            
        idea that, you know,

405
00:21:57,190 --> 00:22:00,694
no matter where you come      
   from, no matter where you live,

406
00:22:00,736 --> 00:22:03,447
you know, you just work       
   hard, pull yourselves by your

407
00:22:03,488 --> 00:22:07,701
bootstraps, and you have just    
   as much chance as anyone else.

408
00:22:07,743 --> 00:22:10,495
What has your        
         research said about this?

409
00:22:10,537 --> 00:22:13,874
Well, that's certainly the      
    myth of the American Dream.

410
00:22:14,124 --> 00:22:16,293
[Alzo VO] Dr. Chetty and      
     his colleagues at Opportunity

411
00:22:16,335 --> 00:22:20,297
Insights have used anonymized   
 tax returns tracked over decades

412
00:22:20,339 --> 00:22:23,342
to prove that the zip code     
 where a person is born all but

413
00:22:23,383 --> 00:22:25,469
determines their          
          life's trajectory.

414
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:28,138
There seems to be a         
        lot going on here.

415
00:22:28,180 --> 00:22:29,514
There is a lot           
       going on, as you said,

416
00:22:29,556 --> 00:22:32,517
but it's really quite simple;    
   it's kind of showing you where

417
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:34,978
the opportunity is in America.

418
00:22:35,020 --> 00:22:36,980
Let's go to Seattle.

419
00:22:37,022 --> 00:22:39,524
These red-colored patches      
      that we're seeing here,

420
00:22:39,566 --> 00:22:42,152
what we're seeing here is if you 
 grew up as a kid in a low-income

421
00:22:42,194 --> 00:22:45,322
family -- a family making, say,   
     around $30,000 a year --

422
00:22:45,364 --> 00:22:48,158
you yourself, as an adult,     
     are making something like

423
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:49,993
$24,000 a year.

424
00:22:50,035 --> 00:22:52,537
But if I go up here to            
   some of these areas,

425
00:22:52,579 --> 00:22:56,541
you know, north of the city,    
 that number jumps up to $42,000.

426
00:22:56,583 --> 00:22:58,377
Let me take you to a        
        very different city:

427
00:22:58,418 --> 00:22:59,836
Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

428
00:22:59,878 --> 00:23:01,421
Here's incarceration.

429
00:23:01,463 --> 00:23:04,549
The fraction of kids that      
    grow up to be incarcerated,

430
00:23:04,591 --> 00:23:08,095
there are some shockingly-high   
    rates in parts of Milwaukee,

431
00:23:08,136 --> 00:23:11,723
like see that one there -- 16    
   percent of kids growing up in

432
00:23:11,765 --> 00:23:16,520
low-income families there were   
   incarcerated on a single day,

433
00:23:16,561 --> 00:23:17,521
-right?               
            -[Alzo] Wow.

434
00:23:17,562 --> 00:23:18,939
I mean, it's an           
         unbelievable rate.

435
00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:21,691
Throughout history, there's     
    been discrimination when it

436
00:23:21,733 --> 00:23:25,237
comes to housing and where     
     people live -- redlining,

437
00:23:25,278 --> 00:23:27,572
credit checks,    
                background checks.

438
00:23:27,614 --> 00:23:29,574
And so when you      
            look at this research,

439
00:23:29,616 --> 00:23:33,412
do you connect it to         
     discriminatory practices?

440
00:23:33,453 --> 00:23:38,583
What we're finding is that some   
 folks have much less access to

441
00:23:38,625 --> 00:23:40,544
neighborhoods where we see     
    much higher levels of upward

442
00:23:40,585 --> 00:23:41,753
-mobility.             
                -Mm.

443
00:23:41,795 --> 00:23:44,923
And I think what that          
 ends up creating is further

444
00:23:44,965 --> 00:23:47,926
amplification of the         
 divides between Black and white

445
00:23:47,968 --> 00:23:50,846
Americans, between low-income    
     and high-income Americans

446
00:23:50,887 --> 00:23:53,932
because you have this        
 segregation in American cities.

447
00:23:53,974 --> 00:23:57,436
There are many people who won't   
   even rent to folks who have a

448
00:23:57,477 --> 00:24:00,605
criminal background, and      
      so these people who are

449
00:24:00,647 --> 00:24:02,732
incarcerated, once         
         they're released,

450
00:24:02,774 --> 00:24:05,819
they have no choice but to live 
    in the place where they were

451
00:24:05,861 --> 00:24:07,571
living when they   
                were incarcerated.

452
00:24:07,612 --> 00:24:10,615
And that's what creates       
   the generational persistence.

453
00:24:10,657 --> 00:24:13,243
[Alzo VO] That           
 generational impact is massive.

454
00:24:13,285 --> 00:24:15,787
More than five million American   
     children have a parent who's

455
00:24:15,829 --> 00:24:17,581
been locked up.

456
00:24:17,622 --> 00:24:19,749
One of those            
        parents is Yusuf Dahl.

457
00:24:19,791 --> 00:24:23,170
At 18, he was convicted on     
     drug distribution charges in

458
00:24:23,211 --> 00:24:26,590
Milwaukee and served        
      five years in state prison.

459
00:24:26,631 --> 00:24:29,968
In the 25 years since, he's done 
     as much bootstrap pulling as

460
00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:31,470
someone could do.

461
00:24:31,511 --> 00:24:33,096
He's got a             
       Master's from Princeton,

462
00:24:33,138 --> 00:24:35,098
worked in real           
          estate for decades,

463
00:24:35,140 --> 00:24:37,976
and is the CEO of         
          his own non-profit.

464
00:24:38,018 --> 00:24:39,895
But when he and his         
     daughter moved to Allentown,

465
00:24:39,936 --> 00:24:43,106
Pennsylvania, he was denied     
 housing because of his criminal

466
00:24:43,148 --> 00:24:44,608
background.

467
00:24:44,649 --> 00:24:48,653
So the school that you wanted    
   your daughter to attend is in

468
00:24:48,695 --> 00:24:49,654
this community?

469
00:24:49,696 --> 00:24:51,072
[Yusuf] Correct.

470
00:24:51,114 --> 00:24:55,660
I spent the last 25 years     
    working 16 hours a day to have

471
00:24:55,702 --> 00:24:59,831
the resources to put my   
         family in this community.

472
00:24:59,873 --> 00:25:02,584
Yet, because of that decision

473
00:25:02,626 --> 00:25:04,794
from over 25 years ago,

474
00:25:04,836 --> 00:25:07,047
it doesn't matter.

475
00:25:07,297 --> 00:25:10,217
Legally, they can keep me out.

476
00:25:10,258 --> 00:25:11,635
And they have.

477
00:25:11,676 --> 00:25:13,512
[Yusuf] They have.

478
00:25:15,472 --> 00:25:19,851
When I was unable to secure     
   housing in the community that

479
00:25:19,893 --> 00:25:23,522
was gonna support my daughter,   
 it put me in a situation I never

480
00:25:23,563 --> 00:25:25,607
thought that I would be put in.

481
00:25:25,649 --> 00:25:30,320
We live in an area where the    
 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has

482
00:25:30,362 --> 00:25:33,865
designated the high         
        school is failing.

483
00:25:33,907 --> 00:25:37,953
You are punishing                 
   entire families

484
00:25:37,994 --> 00:25:40,539
because of something         
   someone has done in the past,

485
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:44,876
and -- by the way -- has      
     paid that cost to society.

486
00:25:44,918 --> 00:25:47,504
Could you see how a 
               landlord would say,

487
00:25:47,546 --> 00:25:50,966
"I have these other potential 
     tenants lined up that can pay

488
00:25:51,007 --> 00:25:54,052
the same amount without...

489
00:25:54,094 --> 00:25:57,597
the notion of a potential risk?"

490
00:25:57,806 --> 00:26:00,559
First of all, I don't have to    
 imagine 'cause my background is

491
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:01,977
in housing.

492
00:26:02,018 --> 00:26:05,272
So I operated 200 units of     
   affordable housing in the city

493
00:26:05,313 --> 00:26:06,273
of Milwaukee.

494
00:26:06,314 --> 00:26:08,817
I know the housing business.

495
00:26:08,858 --> 00:26:13,905
And what matters to a landlord   
      in assessing the risk or

496
00:26:14,322 --> 00:26:16,658
predicting the           
        success of a tenant,

497
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:20,537
it's "Do you have the        
 income to afford the property?"

498
00:26:20,579 --> 00:26:24,541
and "Do you have a track record   
    of paying your bills in the

499
00:26:24,583 --> 00:26:25,709
past?"

500
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:30,547
But your logic               
 presumes there's some...

501
00:26:30,964 --> 00:26:35,093
equality or fairness around      
 who has been justice-impacted.

502
00:26:35,135 --> 00:26:36,219
[Alzo] Mm-hm.

503
00:26:36,261 --> 00:26:40,932
We know that race,               
 income are predictors

504
00:26:41,224 --> 00:26:45,103
of justice involvement, and     
   so if you take this position,

505
00:26:45,145 --> 00:26:49,774
well, you're perpetuating a       
 system of discrimination and

506
00:26:49,816 --> 00:26:51,776
disadvantage that has plagued     
   this country from the very

507
00:26:51,818 --> 00:26:53,028
beginning.

508
00:26:53,069 --> 00:26:58,241
[shouting, sneakers         
        squeaking on court]

509
00:26:58,283 --> 00:27:02,537
Our family was able to make some 
     sacrifices and sent her to an

510
00:27:02,579 --> 00:27:04,539
independent school.

511
00:27:04,789 --> 00:27:07,167
So you're paying for        
        her to go to school?

512
00:27:07,208 --> 00:27:09,085
Yes, I am.

513
00:27:09,127 --> 00:27:11,338
[Alzo VO] I mean, that in      
     and of itself speaks to this

514
00:27:11,379 --> 00:27:12,922
problem.

515
00:27:12,964 --> 00:27:16,301
And we're fortunate to have the   
 resources to be able to do that.

516
00:27:16,343 --> 00:27:20,138
[Alzo VO] What does success in    
 this fight look like for you?

517
00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:23,808
I know we will be successful    
 when a person who has paid their

518
00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:25,727
debt to society

519
00:27:25,769 --> 00:27:28,396
can live where they want,

520
00:27:28,438 --> 00:27:30,649
not where they're allowed.

521
00:27:34,819 --> 00:27:39,616
moody electronic music