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“The Ceremony”
At first I wrote her many letters.
And then I met her again. She had accepted me.
What I wanted...
...was to belong to her...
...to belong to her completely.
I dreamed of
having her initials on my skin...
To know for certain that I really belonged to her
This was very important to me.
I thought about it often.
I wanted to see her all the time.
But she only saw me when she felt like it.
And...
Voilà.
Belong to someone...
How does one belong to someone?
I don't know. I don't know how to answer your question.
I don't know what it means.
Except...
Except as far as Jeanne de Berg and I are concerned.
Belonging to her... In my case,
"belonging" means
thinking about her all the time.
It's...
It's complicated. Could we take a break?
Yes. -Thank you.
Wouldn't it be better to light it from behind?
Here?
Yes. That lighting was not good.
It doesn't look good. -OK.
As far as I can tell, anyway.
When we're together
She is, as Christian would say, the absolute "sovereign".
Not my "sovereign",
nor that of her other friends
It's the life she's led,
the things she's seen...
...her experience and her age. She inspires respect.
Also, she has natural authority
which she can impose when necessary.
She does not accept it
when things don't turn out as she planned.
She imposes her will calmly,
perfectly naturally.
And she has an extraordinary imagination!
That's what she's good at, amazing imagination.
Her passion is theatre. That's important to know.
She has a passion for theatre
and for theatrical presentation.
I've seen sessions of submission that were incredibly boring.
Watching a group of men who want to be whipped, is of absolutely no interest!
I'm sure they enjoy it...
but it bores me to tears.
I told her that I wanted very much to be part of her "theatre".
And she said, "But as what?"
You see how she is. I smiled and said, "Well..."
"...I'm not really sure."
She said, "Well, think about it and let me know."
And that's how I met her.
How long did it take you to think it over?
Not long.
A week or two...
The time to read her books.
I don't have a clearly defined place within S/M.
I like both sides. I like switching.
I'm neither submissive, nor dominatrix.
I like both.
And that's what I told her.
We had our first ceremony...
which was wonderful, amazing.
It was in the same place, two or three months later...
She created something for me that was quite beautiful, really touching.
Move!
Come on. Come.
Enough!
Again. Play the beast.
Come! Come on!
The beast!
Louder. Louder! Louder!
Hush.
Is this mainly a question of power relationship for you?
No, not really. It's about pushing intensity.
Could you explain this? -It's about intensity.
Trying to push the limits of intensity.
And, doing it... through domination
because this is what interests me.
Or by means of things...
...things which stir emotion...
...or destabilize one.
And perhaps, up to a point,
I enjoy inflicting pain.
This is what excites me... gives me pleasure.
Good.
It began when I was very young, this... desire.
I was a small boy,
a very small boy
and desired to be punished, to be beaten by women.
I was really very young...
...and I thought I was a monster.
I couldn't talk about it to anyone.
It was my terrible secret.
I had no idea what to do about it.
I thought I was abnormal, monstrous.
And then... when I was at school...
I came to realize that I wasn't the only one
who had these... bizarre preferences.
I even learned it was quite common.
One day a teacher told us
to read "Confessions", by Rousseau.
I went home and began reading the book...
...and I was dumbstruck.
At one point Rousseau says...
...I don't remember the sentence exactly, but...
...basically, he expressed the pleasure he'd felt as a child
when he found himself in Mlle Lambercier's lap
while she punished him. ...and the confusion he felt at this.
It was very odd...
I felt strangely reassured by this.
I told myself, "I'm not alone."
"Other people also experience this."
It was reassuring.
It happened by chance...
Does this interest you?
To talk about this?
Yeah? -Yes.
I was at the opening of an exhibition
and was introduced to a charming gentleman.
"Oh, 'Helleu'?" he said.
"Are you related to the painter?"
He said he'd love to show me
his Helleu paintings.
We exchanged cards,
and one night he asked me to dinner
and to see his paintings.
We had dinner...
He was charming, intelligent,
but as usual, I soon got bored.
After dinner, I'd had enough,
so I said thank you and goodbye.
He called three times to see me again...
then gave up.
The following year I ran into him again at another opening.
We left at the same time
and he said, "May I invite you to dinner?"
We had dinner. Then he said...
"Listen, I'd love to serve you."
"Excuse me?!"
I thought, "This guy is insane.
What does he mean, 'serve' me?"
No one had ever spoken to me like that before.
This was ten years ago,
...though I won't tell you my real age,...
but I was no spring chicken.
"What can I do for you, madame?"
"What can I do for you, Claude?"
I said, "Well, I'd like you to do some grocery shopping for me."
So, he did. Then he said,
"But I could do much more..."
"...I could clean your windows, your shoes, your house."
I looked at him, flabbergasted.
I said, "Why on earth would you do this?"
He said, "I have a mistress for whom
I've been doing it for 35 years."
I said, "And how does she thank you?"
I didn't find him attractive at all.
He said, "She whips me until I bleed."
Stupefaction! I said,
"Well, I'd never be able to thank you like that!"
"So, I'll just see to my windows without your help."
For me, it's never the same.
Ask 100 dominatrices...
You'll get 100 different answers.
For me...
...there are two ways of living this.
There are two kinds of pleasure for those who dominate.
Firstly...
and this might be a truly sadistic streak in me
before I knew Catherine,
what excited me most of all...
...was dominating virile men who were not submissive.
Taming them.
Training them.
Men, real machos...
...who'd never imagined submitting themselves to a woman.
My greatest pleasure was...
...dominating that kind of man...
...and seeing to what extent,
in spite of themselves, they enjoyed it.
So maybe I wasn't really sadistic.
If there was no pleasure for them
there was none for me either. My satisfaction came...
...from seeing them discover pleasure
where they never expected it.
Maybe it was sadistic, after all.
They found it shameful to discover
they enjoyed being dominated.
...Oh, it's all terribly complicated.
Oddly enough, I don't analyze these experiences.
As you might have noticed...
I don't question what I do.
I play the game, I believe in the game...
...and I'm extremely...
Well...
It's as if I'm merging with them,
allowing myself to...
Catherine once said that
I was the most wellbalanced one in the group.
However, my last lover said
I was the most perverted woman he knew!
But I think it's Catherine who's right.
I'm not at all perverted.
I see no perversion in me. I have no wish to manipulate...
Because that's what perversity is. It's manipulation...
I don't do this.
Play the chicken.
Get up, chicken.
Come on.
Come...
Come.
Come here. Come on.
Come on, little chickens. Come on.
Again. Come on now, little chickens. Again.
Louder. Come on now!
Faster! Faster! Faster!
In sadomasochism there's this idea of
giving up control, or of keeping it.
It's not a matter of who has the power. That's not the issue.
What matters is that
someone is there to ensure a kind of trust.
This trust allows the "other" to let go,
we can let go of ourself, let go of things,
give ourself up, lose ourself...
Because we knows someone's there to set the limits,
to say when to stop,
when to go,
when to push forward.
This way of doing things is even more powerful.
when it all takes place in silence,
and there's order, and ritual.
Suddenly, things that were deeply buried,
come to light.
What makes it so powerful,
is the immediacy which you don't have
when you take time to get to know someone.
When you take time to know someone in "normal" life
you need a good while
before touching anything deep.
In this game, it can happen instantly.
Catherine can be absolutely magnificent
in her bond with the "other".
At the same time, there's respect, great depth...
...and power.
Another thing that's fascinating in life is
when you're able to surpass yourself,
be it an acrobat, a dancer,
a pianist, or an actor...
It's wonderful seeing someone surpassing himself.
In our milieu, people do that... ...and Catherine encourages it.
She encourages that exaltation.
It's magnificent.
She encourages it in me too,
in my capacity as a mistress.
That's what I'm discovering.
With her, I let myself go.
I don't ask questions. I participate completely,
without question.
It's a bit like a Childemperor...
It's like the power in a child's game...
All of a sudden, you choose to place your toys...
...here or there or there... and this or this or
that should happen.
This is what she does,
Only, she does it with people...
But at the same time ensuring there's respect for everyone involved.
She takes into consideration every single person involved.
But, at the same time, each person is like a character
playing a part, like in child's game.
That's what I find poetic about Jeanne de Berg,
her persona.
But at the same time, it's her... It's Catherine RobbeGrillet.
This mixture of childhood... the great gravity of childhood
and this elderly woman with her maturity
It's a doublesided thing
that I find very beautiful in Catherine.
"Good evening, Madame. I would like you to insult me"
"by calling me 'dirty nigger|and 'whore'.
Respectfully, Madame."
On the one hand there's this request to be treated like a dog...
It's actually signed "The Dog".
...while at the same time, he shows great respect towards me.
Of course, it sounds silly when you read it out aloud.
I understand perfectly that, in the minds of people...
...in the world of sadomasochism,
one encounters desires which offend.
Desires which offend those
who don't understand this world.
Not only are these desires incomprehensible,
they are shocking.
But I do understand, yes...
Especially given the fact that
no one is forcing me...
...to gratify desires of this nature,
no one forces me to organize anything.
I don't have to do this...
Especially not for financial reasons!
I do what I do because it interests me.
At the same time, I have the feeling that I'm doing good.
The young man who asked me to do this
has been wanting it for a long time.
But couldn't find it. At least that's what he says.
He says he's never found a woman
to satisfy these desires.
For two weeks he's been texting me to say
how he awaits the day...
...with desire.
With... Yes, the word "desire" seems appropriate.
I find this very beautiful. I do.
There's a sort of theatricality to my soirées
a certain kind of eroticism, while at the same time...
I am mistress of all these scenes.
Mistress of Ceremonies.
My role is to bring them to the point of incandescence
where everyone present is seized
by a sort of dramatic tension
which is like something sacred
...but temporary.
Well, I exaggerate a little.
We're not used to associating
the words "sacred" and "erotic",
...it's not considered decent.
But this is what I want.
I love... and admire her.
Why?
Because... she's intelligent...
...cultivated, open to the world.
Her world is not small or isolated.
You can't be married to RobbeGrillet without it
having some effect on you.
You can't live with a man of such intelligence,
without being...
Consider everything she's done with him, ...literature...
...his films, all the travel...
These things opened her up to the world around her.
And it's in her nature,
These experiences fed her.
Her marriage was a great success. Bravo!
She succeeds in everything she does.
She takes complete responsibility
for who she is. She accepts completely what she is.
Of course, being Mme Alain RobbeGrillet...
How should I put this?
It's easier for Mme RobbeGrillet
to admit on primetime television
that she has "particular interests".
Not easy for most women.
It's also rare in France.
The great theme in films
is a virile friendship between two men.
DelonBelmondo...
That's the great theme...
Speaking of protest and disorder...
you have chosen naked women, lesbians.
Why didn't you choose naked men
and gay men?
This applause dismays me.
Once you're at Barthes' level
you need no introduction;
however,
I would like to...
I was always interested in eroticism.
This is where my personal creativity lay.
...not only when it came to my love affairs.
Alain was a faithful husband,
not at all a "skirtchaser", as we used to say.
I, on the other hand, was open to everything around me.
This creativity
was never officially recognised.
For a long time it remained private.
It was only seen as "particular"
or "marginal" creativity
when I first spoke in public,
and when my first book was published.
That's when it started to become "public".
Alain's creativity lay entirely
in his literature and in his films...
...Mine was in eroticism.
Can you tell me about the precise moment when you realized
you wanted your relationship to change?
It was one an evening when we were holding auditions.
We had plans for a certain soirée
and needed a number of men with a very specific profile.
We brought together several candidates.
We examined them in the middle of a circle.
We women, formed a circle in the room...
...and we brought the candidates into the middle of our circle.
And we examined them. There were a few tests...
Nothing difficult, but things which would be an indication
of their behaviour,
how they understood our expectations,
and... their abilities.
I looked at this young man,
walking around in the circle.
He passed by the others, by me...
then stopped in front of Catherine.
He knelt down...
And I realized that I wanted it to be me.
It was like a flash of lightning. It was very powerful.
This position was not something I'd ever desired.
It was truly powerful.
As if I'd been injected with something.
...so powerful, that I decided...
that very night, when I got home... I sat and wrote a letter to Catherine...
...offering myself as her submissive.
It must've been powerful, because as I wrote
I had the feeling I was risking our friendship.
I was worried that our friendship
was based on the complicity we shared as dominatrices...
and if she discovered that
what I wanted was something completely different...
it would spoil our friendship.
Looking back... I know that was impossible...
but at the time, what I felt was so strong....
It was something I desired so much that...
...anything which might jeopardize
my relationship with Catherine scared me.
It's her, it's me.
We're very close.
We make love.
She's the one in charge.
She gives the rhythm, the pace,
in this text, in this dream.
And that's what concerns me. What I write in this text, is,
"I must wait... I must behave...."
"She's in charge."
"And we'll only stop when she's had enough."
Writing this, I realize that it's very pleasant.
Because I'm not afraid anymore... of making mistakes.
She is in charge, she calls the shots.
We do things her way, according to her wishes.
So there's no risk of my getting it wrong...
...no risk of hurting her.
It's very simple.
Is this okay? Can he hear me?
Is this okay? Such an interesting experience.
I never wanted to be independent.
I wanted a husband who'd take care of me...
...who'd allow me to do what I wanted.
even if it meant not working.
I trusted Alain.
We had a happy relationship,
so it never occurred to me to think,
"If I only had a career, I could do what I want
and not depend on a man."
This dependence was never a burden to me.
Never.
And I've never regretted my choice.
Why would I?
If I'd had a profession,
I'd never have had the life I've had.
I travelled the world with him...
I met fascinating people...
This is not a recipe
I'd recommend for other women.
But for me, it was perfect.
I always say that
I have had all the security of a married woman
whose husband was of the old school, someone responsible
while at the same time, having the freedom of a single woman.
I've had the best of both worlds.
So, Alain married you
because he was passionately in love with you?
And for you
it was more like a convenient arrangement?
No, I loved him in my own way.
Yes, I did love him in my own way.
But it certainly wasn't passionate love.
And did he know that?
Yes, of course he did.
One day he said,
"Isn't it about time you started loving me now?"
He was joking, but he did say it.
Being loved the way he loved me was terribly reassuring.
I felt safe and warm.
His love for me was precisely
why I was so attached to him.
Isn't it everybody's wish to feel protected?
Well, perhaps not yours...
And what did he want from you?
What was he looking for in a woman?
To live with me.
And of course, erotic relations,
in spite of everything.
When you're a dominatrix...
...whatever happens, you're desired...
...because there's so little response
to the needs of submissives.
There are far more submissives who want to be dominated
than women who want to dominate.
So, we have the power.
We know we're desired.
We know that, no matter what,
we'll have candidates.
When you're submissive...
...and especially, when you are Jeanne de Berg's submissive...
...you can never be sure of the other person's desire.
Jeanne de Berg or Catherine...
has countless submissives wanting her attention.
So, offering oneself as a submissive
and then being accepted by Catherine, by Jeanne...
...to me, this suggests a certain desire on her part.
It means that she would want me as her submissive...
...Not just accept me, but want me...
since there are so many others.
No, Alain's sexuality was by no means normal.
Not at all.
And given his sadistic preferences, he never thought he'd meet anyone...
...who would suit him.
He'd resigned himself to kissing the whole thing goodbye.
He just thought that it wasn't for him...
That he didn't correspond to
what women wanted in a man.
I didn't laugh, I wasn't shocked...
From the start, I listened with interest.
So you were Alain's submissive? -Yes.
In those days, I preferred being passive.
I preferred being taken care of...
It was the pleasure of letting go...
...of obeying, being constrained...
...immobilized...
Of giving yourself up to someone... completely.
It's a pleasure
which is physical and intellectual, all at once.
Of course, looking at me there... with that angelic face...
...you'd never suspect what my life was.
Do you like your body?
My body?
I've never been interested in it.
Or rather...
...when I was young...
...I thought I was alright.
I was tiny, "a pocketedition "...
...wellproportioned...
They called me "little Tanagra".
Those miniature Greek figurines.
About this big.
There was a famous French poet... His name was Paul Fort.
I had auditioned for him at drama school.
He said I was a "little Tanagra".
I've always had the gift of taking life as it comes.
So I was short, so what? I accepted it.
And if nobody liked me,
I'd move on.
I'm not a crybaby.
I've never been a crybaby.
And I quickly discovered
that people actually liked me.
Which was very reassuring.
Even today
I am still solicited as a dominatrix.
I get many offers...
...even for physical relationships.
...which I decline,
nevertheless, I do receive them.
People who actually want physical relations with me.
Incredible!
Of course, it's reassuring...
Especially at my age.
You don't feel like an old reject that
no one notices anymore
someone who'd be better off in a cemetery.
That's not at all how I feel.
Today, I have erotic relations with...
Well, "erotic relations" obviously means "with someone else"...
...but I am never naked,
I am in the dominant role...
I decide whether I'm dressed or not.
Almost always, I am dressed.
And should I decide not to be dressed...
...the person with me...
...is blindfolded, so they can't see me.
I have occasionally asked Beverly to bathe me...
This is not an ordinary bath.
The purpose is not to wash....
It's a bath with caresses, like the one I describe
in "Cérémonies de Femmes"...
...with foam and perfumes...
It's a bath where the contact is sensual...
Usually with candles, incense and...
At such times, she wears a blindfold
and does not see me.
She is in contact with my skin, but doesn't see me.
Nowadays, in an erotic situation,
no one ever sees me naked.
This happens less and less often,
and when it does, no one sees me.
I believe I've answered your question.
It's been a long time, actually.
I've always been shy...
...Even as a child.
It increases with age
We are conscious of our own bodies.
When you look at yourself in the mirror,
naturally you see your body changing.
It's less and less harmonious, less beautiful to see.
Increasingly affected by age...
...I don't want to show that.
I know there are men and women
who aren't bothered by this...
...who are perfectly comfortable with their ageing.
That's not my case. It surprises me that
ageing doesn't bother them.
But... good for them!
There's nothing wrong with that...
...I pass no moral judgement.
But I can't do it.
I would feel horribly uncomfortable.
I cannot.
You are here for our pleasure.
I've been told that you can dance.
So... dance.
Go on.
Stand behind her...
Take both arms...
Good. Yes.
Guide her. That's good.
Move aside.
Come nearer...
That's right... Arms above your head.
Like this.
Good.
Look at me. Look into my eyes. Very good.
She dances nicely... She's pretty. -Lovely.
Now, turn....
Turn around...
Turn... Good.
So that we can see your behind...
Bigger movements...
That's right.
That's lovely.
Bigger movements... More.
Step back.
Return to your place.
Step back. There.
Look at me.
Smile.
It was very beautiful. -Well done.
Do you feel now that you belong to her?
Yes. Now I'm sure of it, because...
...we've signed a contract.
In this contract I asked to be her subject.
I wanted her to be my sovereign.
This contract was signed.
But before it was signed,
she...burned her initials into my skin.
So...
Yes, I belong to her.
Madame, you asked nothing of me.
It is of my own free will that
I offer my allegiance, obedience and loyalty.
I commend to you everything I possess
material, intellectual and physical
that you may do with them whatever you see fit.
I swear to dedicate myself to you, as your attendant, your servant
to defend, support and protect you,
whatever the circumstances
in every possible way, even to the detriment of my own life.
Was it important to you to make the relationship official?
It never used to be for me.
No, I never felt it was important.
But with her it was important,
because it seemed to me
that if there were a contract,
if our relationship were official
I'd have a greater chance of staying with her...
She'd be more likely to take me seriously and keep me with her.
As you know, I'm a solitary person...
"As you know..."
How could you know!
Of course, with 3 husbands and many lovers and friends...
that sounds odd.
but I am alone, I live alone
and have no intimate friends of either gender.
I wake up alone, manage my problems alone,
decide alone whether to get up
Do my exercises, or not...
...and whether or not I call my friends.
It's a personal choice, rather than a conviction.
There's just no one I could see myself
being with all the time, even respecting their temperament...
That's why the BeverlyCatherine
bond fascinates me. It's just perfect.
But...
Between them, there's complicity...
The complicity of woman to woman.
I discovered women late in life.
She contributed greatly to this
discovery of women.
We know each other better and better.
At first, I asked her before doing anything.
I never did a thing without first checking with her.
Obviously, I'd get dressed without asking what to wear...
But I never made any decision
which might affect her, without checking.
Now, I feel I know her well
enough to guess what she will answer.
Which means... I'm more independent.
I take the initiative,
but initiatives which I know will please her...
...which I hope will please her.
What hasn't changed?
What hasn't changed is...
...my desire to submit myself to her...
...to do whatever she wants.
...to be the person that she wants me to be.
...and to...
...give myself up to her will.
What makes people happy?
Not necessarily what we were taught!
...And love isn't necessarily what they taught us either.
...Not to mention the idea of sin,
which was so much a part of my youth.
Your upbringing was...?
Traditional bourgeois French Catholic upbringing.
You know, I've come a long way!
There are, of course, many positive aspects to it
which I appreciate.
But there are also barriers...
blinders...
...Yes, blinders.
And... there's Good and Evil.
With Catherine...
there is no "Good and Evil".
That's an important point.
Not to mention "normal" or "abnormal"...
...All the idiotic things said about that!
Have you found a soul mate in her?
Yes.
Absolutely.
My freedom comes...
...from the fact that I firmly believe we're never happier
than when we are able to do what we do best.
And what I do best, is love Catherine.
Yes.
I love her, I know how to love her
and take care of her, and I do it well.
So I spend my days doing
what no one else could do as well as me.
I believe this is freedom.
I kneel before Jeanne
to whom I owe respect and obedience.
Jeanne who has taken me beyond anything I could ever have imagined.
I kneel before Catherine,
the tiny woman who enchants me
ever astonished by the tenderness I feel and that she bestows on me.
Je t'aime (I love you).
Je vous aime (I love you).