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**

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[ Thunder rumbles ]

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**

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"Dear Dan,
I'm writing to you today

5
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'cause I'm in a state
of total crisis.

6
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My wife has just left me
after nearly 10 years together,

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and my whole world has crumbled.

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I'm not sure where to turn.

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I'm about to lose my home,
my adopted family,

10
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and everything I care about.

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I know I'm not alone.

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1.1 million Americans
get divorced every year,

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00:01:02,696 --> 00:01:05,799
which doesn't exactly
give me solace.

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Of course, it's not
just the couples who suffer.

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By the time
they reach adulthood,

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half of all children
see their parents split up,

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like I did.

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When I got married,
it seemed so romantic.

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We were so young and in love.

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Were we naive to get married?

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How was I supposed to deal
with the inevitable changes

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that every relationship
undergoes --

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from the passion of first love

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to the day-to-day demands
of domestic life?

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Is it natural
to be monogamous --

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to be with one person
for our whole lives?

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Or are we, at best,
as you say, monogamish?"

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**

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"I'm setting off today
in search of some answers.

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I'm really hoping you can help."

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[ Engine starts ]

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[ Engine idling ]

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**

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-I don't know where to start.

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Um, you know, that desire,
that impulse,

36
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you know,
to be so overwhelmed by love

37
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that you want to permanently,
somehow,

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enshrine that, that,
that momentary feeling

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by codifying it
through marriage

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is evidence, all by itself, that
you shouldn't get married --

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that you're not mature enough
for marriage.

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And you have so much
working against you,

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that you're both so young.

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You know, if you're gonna
measure success by,

45
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"Are we gonna be together
for the rest of our lives,

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are we gonna be able to preserve
forever this feeling

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by getting married?" --

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No.
No, you're not.

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**

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-I was completely promiscuous

51
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for the late part of the '60s
and early part of the '70s.

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The pill had just become
widely distributed,

53
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and there was a wave
of feminist thought

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that said that women
almost had the obligation

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to be as promiscuous as men.

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It was a mighty time.

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**

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I felt like I had a series

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of the same sort
of relationships

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that went
to the same dreary end.

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I went back to Wyoming,

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and I was in this much more
19th-century condition

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where I thought,
"Well, you know,

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I'm running a large ranch
in Wyoming.

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This is impossible to do with,
you know,

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frontier housewives
for a fortnight.

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What I really need is a wife,
and if I'm going to do that,

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I'm going to try to be married
in the conventional sense,

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and I'm not going to be
polygamous, as is my tendency,"

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and I managed
to convince somebody

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to come up there
into this frontier state

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and marry me,

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and then imposed
monogamy on myself

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for a good long time.

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**

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-When I got married,

77
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it was the most optimistic,
hopeful, loving act

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that I've ever engaged in.

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I'd always, before, put the
brakes on every relationship,

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always been hesitant.

81
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And I decided that,
"I'm going for it."

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[ Sentimental music plays ]

83
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-Do we really
understand marriage?

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Do we understand
the social aspects of marriage?

85
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-Does each of us really want
to make the other one happy?

86
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-Most Americans tend to think
that the traditional marriage

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was the one that they see
on "Leave it to Beaver,"

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as though, you know,
that might be a documentary.

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[ Chuckles ]
So they think of it

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as a male-breadwinner family,

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the wife at home,
doing the vacuuming,

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spending all of her time
raising the children.

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-They make sure that
everything is on the table

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in just the right place.

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-We have an idea
that the American family --

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a mom, dad, two kids,
and a picket fence,

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suburban household --

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that this is the way
family has always been

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and always should be.

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-It's a nuclear family
of two people

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who once loved each other --
and may still --

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and who have
committed themselves

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to exclusive sexual relations.

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-The world is a scary place,

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and we need somebody to help us
feel safe and secure.

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That is what a spouse,

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or somebody that
we choose to commit to,

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provides for us.

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-My parents never got married.
-Mm-hmm.

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-Like, they spent 10 years --

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very wonderful years --
together.

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But it was, you know, a very
unconventional relationship.

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In the 1950s,
my maternal grandfather, Billy,

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married my grandmother, Marge.

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They had two kids -- my aunt,
Carin, and my mom, Debra.

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They lived in the nuclear-family
model for just a few years,

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until my grandfather
ran off to Italy,

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where he became
a spaghetti-western star.

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[ Gunfire ]

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While there,
he started a commune

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where free love
was practiced

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and societal structures
of all kinds were rejected.

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When she was 15, my mom
dropped out of high school

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and went to Italy
to find her dad.

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They ended up getting along
really well,

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and she stayed there.

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When she was just 16,
she met my father,

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an Italian prince
named Dado Ruspoli.

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My dad had been a well-known
playboy in the '50s and '60s

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and was still married to Nancy,
his second wife,

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when he met my mom.

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Nancy and my dad had a son --
my older brother, Francesco --

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and Nancy and Francesco lived
with Nancy's boyfriend,

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upstairs
from my mother and father.

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When my mom was 17,
I was conceived,

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and they went to Thailand,
where I was born in 1975.

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My dad was 50,
and my mom was 18.

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There was even a newspaper
headline once that said,

139
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"Here is Prince Dado Ruspoli

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with his wife,
his son, and his lover" --

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my mom -- "pregnant."

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Then my little brother
Bartolomeo was born.

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Meanwhile,
my grandfather, Billy,

144
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had three more children
with three different women --

145
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Hania, Dirta, and Pat --

146
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named Casomir, Alexander,
and Wendell.

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When I was 8,
my parents separated,

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and my brother and I went
to live in Los Angeles,

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where we were raised
by our now-single mom.

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We did get to spend
our summers in Italy,

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in the family castle
outside of Rome,

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with our dad.

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When he was 70,
Dado married for the third time

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and had two more children --

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my sister Melusine
and my brother Theodore.

156
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-I tell you the truth.
I never went through marriage.

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I never went through marriage,
and one of the reasons

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is because I had an example
in my family with your father --

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with many, many wives,
with many children --

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and I got extremely confused.

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Also, if I tell you the truth,

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I thought it was very much fun

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to see all this thing going on.

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And then I saw my father, also,

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marrying once, marrying twice,
marrying three times,

166
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and blah, blah, blah.

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So all the thing
confused me very much

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that when I understood that
what my father had told me,

169
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all, you know, growing up,

170
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saying that marriage was sacred,
that fidelity was sacred,

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et cetera, et cetera,

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and suddenly, I understood
that all this was a lie.

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**

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-It's a complete falsehood.

175
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-In fact, this is
a relatively-new invention.

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-Our family situations have
always been rather complex.

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It's never been just about,
you know, one man and one woman

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and they come together for life
and so forth and so on.

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-We look at history through
the lens of the current day.

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In our book, we call
this process "Flintstonization."

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-Marriage never existed
the way that we see it

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and the way that it developed
in the last 100 years.

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-What made you decide to choose,
you know, being married?

184
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-I was forced,
since I was very small,

185
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into the role of the caretaker

186
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and the responsible one.
-Mm-hmm.

187
00:08:54,802 --> 00:08:55,703
-My brother
was a little bit wild,

188
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and my mom was very young.

189
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When I met my wife,

190
00:09:00,507 --> 00:09:01,408
she had come to Los Angeles

191
00:09:01,508 --> 00:09:03,076
to pursue an acting career.

192
00:09:03,176 --> 00:09:04,444
We fell madly in love
with each other

193
00:09:04,544 --> 00:09:06,446
and had this extremely
passionate connection.

194
00:09:06,546 --> 00:09:07,815
-Mm-hmm.
-And she was very young,

195
00:09:07,915 --> 00:09:11,418
and I got to provide
a sense of security within,

196
00:09:11,518 --> 00:09:14,822
you know,
a world full of unknowns.

197
00:09:14,922 --> 00:09:17,625
**

198
00:09:20,327 --> 00:09:21,595
All I remember is

199
00:09:21,695 --> 00:09:22,830
I said I was thinking
of getting married,

200
00:09:22,930 --> 00:09:24,632
you know, secretly.
But I'd already done it,

201
00:09:24,732 --> 00:09:25,799
so I didn't know
how to tell you that.

202
00:09:25,899 --> 00:09:28,636
-I think it's wonderful,
the way you got married.

203
00:09:28,736 --> 00:09:32,305
You both gave yourselves
so fully to this love,

204
00:09:32,405 --> 00:09:33,607
and honored it
by getting married.

205
00:09:33,707 --> 00:09:34,808
It was a beautiful act.

206
00:09:34,908 --> 00:09:37,210
**

207
00:09:37,310 --> 00:09:38,712
-My own thinking went
through quite an evolution.

208
00:09:38,812 --> 00:09:40,748
I was raised in the '60s,

209
00:09:40,848 --> 00:09:43,516
and, in that time,
the anthropological theory

210
00:09:43,617 --> 00:09:47,320
was that marriage was invented
to protect women and children --

211
00:09:47,420 --> 00:09:49,757
that women traded
sexual monogamy

212
00:09:49,857 --> 00:09:53,226
in return for the man going out
and hunting the meat

213
00:09:53,326 --> 00:09:56,664
and protecting them
from the saber-tooth tigers.

214
00:09:56,764 --> 00:09:58,098
But then, in the '70s,

215
00:09:58,198 --> 00:10:00,533
a lot of female anthropologists
came along,

216
00:10:00,634 --> 00:10:01,902
and they pointed out,

217
00:10:02,002 --> 00:10:03,737
if the men were out hunting
and the women were home,

218
00:10:03,837 --> 00:10:06,539
who was protecting the women
from the saber-tooth tiger?

219
00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:07,708
Then you got
a totally different theory

220
00:10:07,808 --> 00:10:09,677
of the invention of marriage --

221
00:10:09,777 --> 00:10:11,879
that it was invented
to oppress women.

222
00:10:11,979 --> 00:10:14,682
**

223
00:10:14,782 --> 00:10:19,853
-[ Speaking Italian ]

224
00:10:34,868 --> 00:10:37,170
-In Assyria, in Mesopotamia,

225
00:10:37,270 --> 00:10:39,206
and through
the entire ancient world,

226
00:10:39,306 --> 00:10:42,175
a woman's virginity --
her marriage value --

227
00:10:42,275 --> 00:10:43,443
was really more
of an economic thing

228
00:10:43,543 --> 00:10:45,312
than an emotional thing.

229
00:10:46,479 --> 00:10:48,548
A father in Assyria,

230
00:10:48,648 --> 00:10:50,217
if his virgin daughter
was raped,

231
00:10:50,317 --> 00:10:52,786
the father is the one
who had the remedies

232
00:10:52,886 --> 00:10:55,122
against the man
who raped his daughter,

233
00:10:55,222 --> 00:10:56,790
not because
his daughter was raped,

234
00:10:56,890 --> 00:10:59,226
but because someone
actually stole his property.

235
00:10:59,326 --> 00:11:02,262
His daughter wasn't worth
as much after being raped.

236
00:11:02,362 --> 00:11:04,264
What does the court do?

237
00:11:04,364 --> 00:11:07,267
Can the father collect
the money that he lost

238
00:11:07,367 --> 00:11:08,869
from the rapist's family?

239
00:11:08,969 --> 00:11:10,871
Yeah, he generally could,

240
00:11:10,971 --> 00:11:14,374
but at the same time, the best
solution was often seen

241
00:11:14,474 --> 00:11:18,578
to force the rapist
and the girl who was raped

242
00:11:18,678 --> 00:11:20,881
to settle down and get married.

243
00:11:20,981 --> 00:11:24,918
That's really a traditional
remedy for rape.

244
00:11:25,018 --> 00:11:29,589
**

245
00:11:29,689 --> 00:11:31,324
-With the advent
of agriculture,

246
00:11:31,424 --> 00:11:33,260
the concept of private property

247
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,029
entered the cognitive lexicon
of our species.

248
00:11:40,033 --> 00:11:42,569
-As men had
multiple sexual partners,

249
00:11:42,669 --> 00:11:45,338
they didn't want women also to
have multiple sexual partners,

250
00:11:45,438 --> 00:11:46,173
because they wanted to know

251
00:11:46,273 --> 00:11:48,375
that their property
was going to descend

252
00:11:48,475 --> 00:11:49,309
to their own child.

253
00:11:52,445 --> 00:11:54,347
-"Thou shalt not covet
thy neighbor's wife."

254
00:11:54,447 --> 00:11:56,583
Read that in context
in the Old Testament,

255
00:11:56,683 --> 00:12:00,754
and what you find is it says,
"Nor his house, nor his she-ass,

256
00:12:00,854 --> 00:12:03,991
nor his ox, nor his servants."

257
00:12:04,091 --> 00:12:06,927
In other words, "Thou shalt not
covet thy neighbor's stuff."

258
00:12:07,027 --> 00:12:09,196
It has nothing to do with
respecting his relationship.

259
00:12:09,296 --> 00:12:11,664
It's about respecting
his property.

260
00:12:11,765 --> 00:12:14,601
**

261
00:12:14,701 --> 00:12:16,804
-Eventually,
I came to the conclusion

262
00:12:16,904 --> 00:12:19,973
that marriage had nothing to do
with the relationship

263
00:12:20,073 --> 00:12:23,010
between the husband and the wife
and the children.

264
00:12:25,478 --> 00:12:26,814
It was a way of getting in-laws.

265
00:12:26,914 --> 00:12:28,916
In-laws were the reason
for marriage.

266
00:12:29,016 --> 00:12:30,951
"I marry my son
to your daughter,

267
00:12:31,051 --> 00:12:33,553
and therefore,
we have a relationship.

268
00:12:33,653 --> 00:12:34,687
I owe you things,
you owe me things."

269
00:12:34,788 --> 00:12:39,359
**

270
00:12:39,459 --> 00:12:40,227
-When I got married,

271
00:12:40,327 --> 00:12:43,463
her parents took me in
like a son.

272
00:12:43,563 --> 00:12:44,464
It was amazing.

273
00:12:44,564 --> 00:12:47,835
I did not expect

274
00:12:47,935 --> 00:12:50,737
that level of being
brought into a family.

275
00:12:50,838 --> 00:12:52,973
I had never really known that.

276
00:12:53,073 --> 00:12:54,942
I felt, for the first time
in my life,

277
00:12:55,042 --> 00:12:59,046
the possibility
of true stability.

278
00:12:59,146 --> 00:13:03,516
So marriage, for me, wasn't
just about love and commitment,

279
00:13:03,616 --> 00:13:06,553
but it was also integrating
into this larger family unit.

280
00:13:06,653 --> 00:13:08,388
And I think
it was a feeling that,

281
00:13:08,488 --> 00:13:10,924
"It's not just my desires
that count anymore.

282
00:13:11,024 --> 00:13:15,028
Let's expand that sense
of what and who matters."

283
00:13:15,128 --> 00:13:17,530
**

284
00:13:17,630 --> 00:13:18,866
-For a lot of history,

285
00:13:18,966 --> 00:13:21,001
marriage was not
a romantic institution.

286
00:13:21,101 --> 00:13:23,937
-The social-conservative
position on love and marriage

287
00:13:24,037 --> 00:13:25,272
was you don't mix
those two things,

288
00:13:25,372 --> 00:13:29,042
because love is unstable
and sexual desire is unstable.

289
00:13:29,142 --> 00:13:32,312
-I love you, Nora.
Do you love me?

290
00:13:32,412 --> 00:13:34,547
-In the 20th century,
the idea of romantic marriage --

291
00:13:34,647 --> 00:13:38,451
that an individual falls in love
and finds their soul mate

292
00:13:38,551 --> 00:13:39,752
and then marries that person --

293
00:13:39,853 --> 00:13:43,756
came to predominate at least our
public discourse about marriage.

294
00:13:43,857 --> 00:13:47,995
-I think so,
but I have to think about it.

295
00:13:48,095 --> 00:13:52,900
[ Mid-tempo rock music playing ]

296
00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:54,301
-Back in Italy,

297
00:13:54,401 --> 00:13:56,369
I wanted to find out
from my cousin Claudia

298
00:13:56,469 --> 00:13:58,438
why people had gotten married
in our own family,

299
00:13:58,538 --> 00:14:01,341
going back 1,000 years.

300
00:14:01,441 --> 00:14:05,578
-Most of these marriages
are to consolidate power --

301
00:14:05,678 --> 00:14:07,614
I would say all of them --

302
00:14:07,714 --> 00:14:10,550
until a generation when,
instead,

303
00:14:10,650 --> 00:14:13,053
passion come in the story.
Hmm.

304
00:14:13,153 --> 00:14:16,323
These marriages of passion
are leaving us

305
00:14:16,423 --> 00:14:19,792
and basically selling tickets
at the door

306
00:14:19,893 --> 00:14:22,129
to have people coming
to visit the garden

307
00:14:22,229 --> 00:14:25,765
to try to pay the bills
of the gardener and whatever.

308
00:14:25,865 --> 00:14:28,868
**

309
00:14:28,969 --> 00:14:30,470
The last great marriage

310
00:14:30,570 --> 00:14:34,474
who was made to bring money
into the family

311
00:14:34,574 --> 00:14:36,409
was Matarazzo -- this one.

312
00:14:36,509 --> 00:14:40,480
**

313
00:14:45,852 --> 00:14:50,623
He married all his girls,
all organized,

314
00:14:50,723 --> 00:14:52,759
to aristocracy in Italy.

315
00:14:52,859 --> 00:14:54,027
-And did you ever ask
our grandfather

316
00:14:54,127 --> 00:14:55,728
how he felt about this?
Was he -- Well, did he --

317
00:14:55,828 --> 00:14:57,564
-Well, I tell you
what he felt about this.

318
00:14:57,664 --> 00:15:00,067
He felt that he didn't --
Basically, I think,

319
00:15:00,167 --> 00:15:01,468
that he wasn't madly in love.

320
00:15:01,568 --> 00:15:04,938
He was a [speaking Italian]
He loved women.

321
00:15:05,038 --> 00:15:07,975
And I think that
our grandmother suffered a lot.

322
00:15:08,075 --> 00:15:10,978
I think she --
I know she suffered a lot,

323
00:15:11,078 --> 00:15:13,346
because my father,
when he talks about her,

324
00:15:13,446 --> 00:15:15,983
he still cries
when she was crying,

325
00:15:16,083 --> 00:15:17,917
waiting for the grandfather
to come home.

326
00:15:18,018 --> 00:15:19,686
-So it wasn't very good
for women --

327
00:15:19,786 --> 00:15:20,920
this whole situation?
-No.

328
00:15:21,021 --> 00:15:23,123
This always happened,
always happened.

329
00:15:23,223 --> 00:15:24,591
All these women cried.

330
00:15:25,692 --> 00:15:27,194
All these women cried.

331
00:15:28,728 --> 00:15:32,265
**

332
00:15:32,365 --> 00:15:36,569
-My grandfather, Billy, had
three kids that are all my age.

333
00:15:36,669 --> 00:15:38,571
All around the same time
that his daughter, my mom,

334
00:15:38,671 --> 00:15:40,707
was having me,

335
00:15:40,807 --> 00:15:42,709
he was having kids,
in the mid-'70s.

336
00:15:42,809 --> 00:15:45,945
Two of them were born
almost exactly the same time,

337
00:15:46,046 --> 00:15:47,147
from women
that he met on this --

338
00:15:47,247 --> 00:15:49,016
that he was living with
on this commune.

339
00:15:49,116 --> 00:15:51,184
And my uncle Wendell,
who lives in Torrance,

340
00:15:51,284 --> 00:15:53,220
has been married 15 years --

341
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:54,887
certainly the only example
in my family

342
00:15:54,988 --> 00:15:58,758
of somebody
who has decided to go

343
00:15:58,858 --> 00:16:01,394
the traditional
marriage-monogamy route.

344
00:16:01,494 --> 00:16:03,130
-Good to see you.
-Good to see you.

345
00:16:03,230 --> 00:16:07,134
Having seen Billy saying,
"I'm never gonna commit,

346
00:16:07,234 --> 00:16:09,736
I'm going to love who I want,"

347
00:16:09,836 --> 00:16:11,038
how on Earth do you go from that

348
00:16:11,138 --> 00:16:14,007
to saying,
"I want to be with you forever"?

349
00:16:14,107 --> 00:16:16,676
-To me,
it was about the promise.

350
00:16:16,776 --> 00:16:18,845
It was about standing there,

351
00:16:18,945 --> 00:16:20,980
making the covenant,
making the promise,

352
00:16:21,081 --> 00:16:23,450
and being there
for the children.

353
00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:26,753
I didn't want my kids to feel
like I did.

354
00:16:26,853 --> 00:16:27,854
-Which is how?
How did you feel?

355
00:16:27,954 --> 00:16:30,690
-Kind of, you know --
kind of abandoned.

356
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:32,092
-Right.

357
00:16:33,693 --> 00:16:34,961
My first memories in life

358
00:16:35,062 --> 00:16:38,465
are of the rupture
of my parents splitting up,

359
00:16:38,565 --> 00:16:41,168
and I know that
that's affected me.

360
00:16:41,268 --> 00:16:42,769
I know it's part of why
I suffered so much

361
00:16:42,869 --> 00:16:43,936
in the end of my marriage --

362
00:16:44,037 --> 00:16:46,739
because I had a total fear
of abandonment.

363
00:16:46,839 --> 00:16:48,275
-Well,
you said something before,

364
00:16:48,375 --> 00:16:49,209
when we first started talking
about your marriage and divorce,

365
00:16:49,309 --> 00:16:50,443
there were no children.

366
00:16:50,543 --> 00:16:52,011
You didn't have any childen
with your wife,

367
00:16:52,112 --> 00:16:53,713
and that made it simpler.

368
00:16:53,813 --> 00:16:55,882
And it does.

369
00:16:55,982 --> 00:16:57,284
And I'm actually sometimes
accused of being conservative,

370
00:16:57,384 --> 00:17:00,087
because the first question
I ask somebody when they say,

371
00:17:00,187 --> 00:17:01,121
"You know, we've been together
a certain amount of time.

372
00:17:01,221 --> 00:17:02,455
We're thinking about
getting divorced" --

373
00:17:02,555 --> 00:17:03,523
The first thing out of my mouth
is, "Do you have kids?"

374
00:17:03,623 --> 00:17:06,526
Because it does change
the advice that you give,

375
00:17:06,626 --> 00:17:07,660
because I don't think that
adults have a right

376
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:12,365
to just careen around,
traumatizing children.

377
00:17:12,465 --> 00:17:17,304
Kids have this desire for --
this need -- for some constancy.

378
00:17:17,404 --> 00:17:19,972
Is marriage a response to this
free-love shit in the '60s?

379
00:17:20,073 --> 00:17:21,141
Is this sort of modern,

380
00:17:21,241 --> 00:17:23,676
sort of bring-the-gays-in
marriage movement?

381
00:17:23,776 --> 00:17:26,813
Perhaps.
Perhaps it is.

382
00:17:26,913 --> 00:17:29,149
You know, I don't -- Your
childhood sounds fascinating.

383
00:17:29,249 --> 00:17:30,850
It doesn't sound like
you're wrecked by it.

384
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:32,319
And it seems like you're not --

385
00:17:32,419 --> 00:17:34,154
You know, you probably had a
really colorful life experience.

386
00:17:34,254 --> 00:17:36,656
I wouldn't trade yours
for mine, though,

387
00:17:36,756 --> 00:17:38,291
even though my parents divorced
when I was a teenager.

388
00:17:38,391 --> 00:17:42,295
But for the first, you know,
15, 16 years of my life,

389
00:17:42,395 --> 00:17:45,332
it was, everything stayed
the same one day to the next.

390
00:17:45,432 --> 00:17:48,601
**

391
00:17:52,139 --> 00:17:53,706
-As I was separating,
one of the first people

392
00:17:53,806 --> 00:17:56,776
I turned to for advice
was my neighbor Roberta,

393
00:17:56,876 --> 00:17:58,845
a wise and eccentric woman
who seemed to have had

394
00:17:58,945 --> 00:18:02,149
a lot more experiences
with these things than I did.

395
00:18:03,983 --> 00:18:05,051
-Susie.
-[ Barks ]

396
00:18:05,152 --> 00:18:07,019
-Why did you keep leaving
these men, do you think?

397
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:08,155
-They were boring.

398
00:18:08,255 --> 00:18:09,189
They weren't the right person
for me,

399
00:18:09,289 --> 00:18:12,325
but there wasn't a good way
to leave them.

400
00:18:12,425 --> 00:18:15,728
I moved to California
because I was married to someone

401
00:18:15,828 --> 00:18:17,797
I didn't really like anymore,

402
00:18:17,897 --> 00:18:20,200
and he came out here
to pursue an acting career.

403
00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:22,235
He had pretty eyes.
That was it.

404
00:18:24,103 --> 00:18:27,073
He was an alcoholic.
He died at a young age.

405
00:18:27,174 --> 00:18:29,776
And then I was married
and had a second child.

406
00:18:29,876 --> 00:18:31,978
Then I left him

407
00:18:32,078 --> 00:18:34,914
and followed
some unemployed writer.

408
00:18:35,014 --> 00:18:35,982
-So, what about marriage?

409
00:18:36,082 --> 00:18:37,917
Is it a doomed institution?

410
00:18:38,017 --> 00:18:40,220
-No.
I think people --

411
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,989
people want to be together
with a partner

412
00:18:43,089 --> 00:18:44,891
and want to have kids
and all that.

413
00:18:44,991 --> 00:18:49,796
**

414
00:18:49,896 --> 00:18:53,233
-The first time I saw her
in that cafeteria in Detroit,

415
00:18:53,333 --> 00:18:56,869
she was sitting at a table
near the window.

416
00:18:56,969 --> 00:18:58,838
Light was coming onto her,

417
00:18:58,938 --> 00:19:03,009
and, you know, and those eyes.

418
00:19:03,109 --> 00:19:05,077
Like, it was --
I was just like, "Wow."

419
00:19:05,178 --> 00:19:08,348
Like, you know?
Like, "Wow."

420
00:19:08,448 --> 00:19:13,019
-Seven years later, I got
a letter to my mom's address.

421
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,122
"Hey, this is Wendell.
I live in California now.

422
00:19:16,223 --> 00:19:18,191
Give me a call."

423
00:19:18,291 --> 00:19:20,327
I called him here in Torrance,

424
00:19:20,427 --> 00:19:25,031
and we decided that
we were gonna do this now --

425
00:19:25,131 --> 00:19:28,034
We're gonna get married
and have kids

426
00:19:28,134 --> 00:19:31,938
without having met
in person in seven years.

427
00:19:32,038 --> 00:19:35,275
**

428
00:19:35,375 --> 00:19:37,076
-What's your philosophy
on monogamy, in general?

429
00:19:37,176 --> 00:19:40,079
Do you think it's
something that's just
an unattainable ideal,

430
00:19:40,179 --> 00:19:41,414
or do you think it's possible?

431
00:19:41,514 --> 00:19:44,817
-I don't think men are
basically very monogamous.

432
00:19:44,917 --> 00:19:46,018
-You think men are
less monogamous than women?

433
00:19:46,118 --> 00:19:47,920
-Yes, by nature.

434
00:19:49,088 --> 00:19:50,823
But, I mean,
speaking for myself alone,

435
00:19:50,923 --> 00:19:52,158
I must be a man.

436
00:19:52,259 --> 00:19:56,195
-The word "nature" is
a very contextual thing,

437
00:19:56,296 --> 00:19:58,398
as if there is some natural way
of making love

438
00:19:58,498 --> 00:20:01,401
and some unnatural way
of making love.

439
00:20:01,501 --> 00:20:06,439
-Wild, flagrant abuses
of the God-given gift of sex.

440
00:20:07,106 --> 00:20:08,508
-When you start to say

441
00:20:08,608 --> 00:20:11,878
that something is objectively
natural or unnatural,

442
00:20:11,978 --> 00:20:13,145
you really get into trouble.

443
00:20:13,246 --> 00:20:15,482
-The body has a design.

444
00:20:15,582 --> 00:20:17,417
People who say, "Oh,
we should overcome nature" --

445
00:20:17,517 --> 00:20:18,951
In "The African Queen"...

446
00:20:19,051 --> 00:20:20,953
-It's only human nature.

447
00:20:21,053 --> 00:20:22,422
-Nature, Mr. Allnutt,

448
00:20:22,522 --> 00:20:26,526
is what we are put in this world
to rise above.

449
00:20:26,626 --> 00:20:27,494
-Bullshit!

450
00:20:27,594 --> 00:20:28,761
You're not gonna
rise above nature.

451
00:20:28,861 --> 00:20:31,097
You're not an angel.
You're an animal.

452
00:20:31,197 --> 00:20:32,765
You're an ape,
just like everybody else.

453
00:20:32,865 --> 00:20:34,734
Deal with it.
[ Monkey screeching ]

454
00:20:34,834 --> 00:20:37,870
So, they say, "Well, you know,
monogamy is natural.

455
00:20:37,970 --> 00:20:39,306
Look at the penguins.

456
00:20:39,406 --> 00:20:41,107
This film, the --
What was it called?

457
00:20:41,207 --> 00:20:42,475
The "March of the Penguins."

458
00:20:42,575 --> 00:20:45,712
Churches across the country
were renting out cinemas

459
00:20:45,812 --> 00:20:47,814
so they could take
the whole congregation in

460
00:20:47,914 --> 00:20:49,482
to see this film,
the "March of the Penguins,"

461
00:20:49,582 --> 00:20:54,253
which was this stellar example
of monogamous parents

462
00:20:54,354 --> 00:20:56,423
teaming up
to get through the winter

463
00:20:56,523 --> 00:20:58,891
in celebration of monogamy.

464
00:20:58,991 --> 00:21:01,994
But those penguins
take a new mate every season.

465
00:21:02,094 --> 00:21:02,862
Your typical emperor penguin

466
00:21:02,962 --> 00:21:07,334
has 20 or 25 sexual partners
in its lifetime,

467
00:21:07,434 --> 00:21:08,535
and yet this is held up

468
00:21:08,635 --> 00:21:12,071
as an example of monogamy
occurring in nature.

469
00:21:12,171 --> 00:21:13,940
If you're gonna do this at all,

470
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,442
do it with the species

471
00:21:15,542 --> 00:21:18,244
that are most closely related
to human beings.

472
00:21:18,345 --> 00:21:19,379
Let's talk about primates.

473
00:21:19,479 --> 00:21:22,248
Over 300 species of primates,

474
00:21:22,349 --> 00:21:24,183
many of which live
in complex social groups

475
00:21:24,283 --> 00:21:26,353
with more than one male.

476
00:21:26,453 --> 00:21:28,455
How many of those species
are monogamous?

477
00:21:28,555 --> 00:21:31,758
Goose egg.
Not one, not one.

478
00:21:31,858 --> 00:21:33,593
Unless you think
we're the sole exception.

479
00:21:34,561 --> 00:21:39,566
-* Face to face with Christ,
my savior *

480
00:21:40,733 --> 00:21:43,169
-Do you have a Bible?
Do you study the Bible at all?

481
00:21:43,269 --> 00:21:45,572
-No, I don't.
-You really should.

482
00:21:45,672 --> 00:21:47,907
God told us to be fruitful
and multiply

483
00:21:48,007 --> 00:21:49,376
and replenish the Earth.

484
00:21:50,343 --> 00:21:51,511
-Do you think that
we have an obligation

485
00:21:51,611 --> 00:21:54,046
to stay in the marriage
even if we're not happy in it?

486
00:21:54,146 --> 00:21:57,584
-If we are following God's
commands, he will make it work.

487
00:21:57,684 --> 00:21:59,986
-I had no religious upbringing,
thank God.

488
00:22:00,086 --> 00:22:02,589
My parents kind of did
the rebelling before me.

489
00:22:02,689 --> 00:22:06,559
But marriage and religion have
been tied closely together,

490
00:22:06,659 --> 00:22:09,596
and I can see why that is.

491
00:22:09,696 --> 00:22:12,465
In a world where everything else
is commodified and replaceable,

492
00:22:12,565 --> 00:22:15,234
the idea of one thing
that's sacred.

493
00:22:15,334 --> 00:22:16,569
-Religions always
insert themselves

494
00:22:16,669 --> 00:22:18,538
into human relationships
and human sexual expression

495
00:22:18,638 --> 00:22:21,974
because if you can
come in between people
and their desires

496
00:22:22,074 --> 00:22:26,345
and if you make their desires
their ticket to Hell,

497
00:22:26,446 --> 00:22:27,614
potentially,
without your intervention,

498
00:22:27,714 --> 00:22:30,282
you can control
those people forever.

499
00:22:30,383 --> 00:22:33,119
That's why religion rushes in to
regulate sexual relationships,

500
00:22:33,219 --> 00:22:37,323
interpersonal relationships,
marital relationships --

501
00:22:37,424 --> 00:22:41,293
Because you can control people
if you seize that,

502
00:22:41,394 --> 00:22:42,495
which is not to say
that religion

503
00:22:42,595 --> 00:22:44,363
and the pageantry
and the symbolism,

504
00:22:44,464 --> 00:22:46,966
and religion
can solemnize a moment,

505
00:22:47,066 --> 00:22:49,268
and it has a beauty.

506
00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:50,269
And, you know, the moment can,
emotionally,

507
00:22:50,369 --> 00:22:51,638
feel very transcendent.

508
00:22:51,738 --> 00:22:54,541
And then, if you have
these dance steps, basically,

509
00:22:54,641 --> 00:22:56,342
that you can go through

510
00:22:56,443 --> 00:22:59,612
that make manifest
those transcendent feelings

511
00:22:59,712 --> 00:23:03,483
and then tie you to
this history, in your family,

512
00:23:03,583 --> 00:23:06,519
going back generations,
to be able to say that,

513
00:23:06,619 --> 00:23:08,087
"This thing that I'm doing now,
my parents did.

514
00:23:08,187 --> 00:23:09,221
My grandparents did.
My great-grandparents did.

515
00:23:09,321 --> 00:23:11,558
My great-great-grandparents
did."

516
00:23:11,658 --> 00:23:13,392
I don't know what my
great-grandparents were like.

517
00:23:13,493 --> 00:23:16,395
I do know they married,
and so did I.

518
00:23:17,530 --> 00:23:19,231
-Ave, Maria,
piena di grazia.

519
00:23:19,331 --> 00:23:21,568
Tu sei benedetta fra le donne

520
00:23:21,668 --> 00:23:23,302
e benedetto é il frutto
del tuo seno, Gesú.

521
00:23:23,402 --> 00:23:25,505
-Oh, my God.

522
00:23:25,605 --> 00:23:28,575
Right, right, right, right.

523
00:23:28,675 --> 00:23:29,609
-"Fallen" in the sense of --

524
00:23:29,709 --> 00:23:30,577
-Yeah.
But I tell you the truth,

525
00:23:30,677 --> 00:23:33,580
that our saint
was a rebel herself.

526
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,448
-What year is this,
more or less?

527
00:23:35,548 --> 00:23:38,451
-1650 or '60.

528
00:23:38,551 --> 00:23:40,052
I have to see it on the tree.

529
00:23:40,152 --> 00:23:43,122
She was obliged by her father
to go to the convent

530
00:23:43,222 --> 00:23:44,557
because she didn't want to go.

531
00:23:44,657 --> 00:23:48,394
And so she lived in the convent,
you know, in luxury.

532
00:23:48,495 --> 00:23:51,297
You know, she treated very badly
the nuns.

533
00:23:51,397 --> 00:23:53,500
She didn't follow the rules.

534
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,334
-She had many lovers, I heard.
Right?

535
00:23:55,434 --> 00:23:58,237
-Well, that, of the lovers,
I don't know.

536
00:23:58,337 --> 00:23:59,606
This, I don't know.

537
00:23:59,706 --> 00:24:01,373
-Is it true that she was
supposed to marry somebody,

538
00:24:01,474 --> 00:24:02,709
and then he came
and liked the sister?

539
00:24:02,809 --> 00:24:05,244
-No, no, no, no.
He didn't like anybody.

540
00:24:05,344 --> 00:24:08,781
In those times, there was
no question of liking somebody.

541
00:24:08,881 --> 00:24:12,051
It was the father who decided
that the boy that she loved

542
00:24:12,151 --> 00:24:15,354
had to go and marry
her youngest sister.

543
00:24:15,454 --> 00:24:16,455
The father probably thought

544
00:24:16,556 --> 00:24:19,626
that Giacinta was
a little bit too wild

545
00:24:19,726 --> 00:24:22,361
and too much a rebel
to be good for marriage,

546
00:24:22,461 --> 00:24:24,797
and so he decided
to send her in this convent.

547
00:24:24,897 --> 00:24:28,835
**

548
00:24:30,703 --> 00:24:32,338
-Marriage actually
means a lot to me.

549
00:24:32,438 --> 00:24:33,906
I'm very old-fashioned.

550
00:24:34,006 --> 00:24:36,976
I'm actually 17,
and I have a 1-year-old son.

551
00:24:37,076 --> 00:24:40,379
I have been with the father
for three years now.

552
00:24:40,479 --> 00:24:41,948
A lot of people, they ask me,

553
00:24:42,048 --> 00:24:44,751
"How can you be with someone
so long?"

554
00:24:44,851 --> 00:24:46,385
What's important to me
is having somebody

555
00:24:46,485 --> 00:24:47,486
that's always gonna
be there for you

556
00:24:47,587 --> 00:24:49,622
and that trusts you
and loves you.

557
00:24:51,524 --> 00:24:53,425
-Or when you see, like,
really old couples,

558
00:24:53,526 --> 00:24:56,529
where one is pushing the other
in a wheelchair,

559
00:24:56,629 --> 00:24:58,898
it's, like, there is
definitely no sex appeal,

560
00:24:58,998 --> 00:25:03,369
but the one person will be loyal
to the other to the grave.

561
00:25:03,469 --> 00:25:06,472
And I think that supersedes
that,

562
00:25:06,573 --> 00:25:09,141
"Oh, I have butterflies
in my belly,"

563
00:25:09,241 --> 00:25:12,278
because I'll have it sometimes,
but not all the time.

564
00:25:12,378 --> 00:25:15,648
So if I'm just only gonna
be nice on butterfly days,

565
00:25:15,748 --> 00:25:17,850
oh, that's gonna be bad.

566
00:25:20,887 --> 00:25:24,724
-If you'll humor me, I wrote
letters to you, imagining,

567
00:25:24,824 --> 00:25:26,893
during the different stages
of my marriage and divorce,

568
00:25:26,993 --> 00:25:29,395
that I would have liked
to have asked you, maybe,

569
00:25:29,495 --> 00:25:31,463
and see how you would react.

570
00:25:31,564 --> 00:25:34,266
"Dear Dan, I've been married
five years now,

571
00:25:34,366 --> 00:25:35,434
and everything is so good

572
00:25:35,534 --> 00:25:37,937
that I'm wondering
if I should be worried.

573
00:25:38,037 --> 00:25:40,506
I know that sounds funny, but I
wonder if being too comfortable

574
00:25:40,607 --> 00:25:42,642
can have a negative effect
on a relationship."

575
00:25:45,477 --> 00:25:47,847
-At a certain point,
my beloved wife --

576
00:25:47,947 --> 00:25:51,718
who I love to this day
very much -- had children,

577
00:25:51,818 --> 00:25:56,422
and something changed profoundly
in her hormonal makeup

578
00:25:56,522 --> 00:25:58,725
and cultural makeup as well.

579
00:25:58,825 --> 00:26:01,060
And suddenly, she was about
as interested in sex

580
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,895
as she was in canasta,

581
00:26:02,995 --> 00:26:04,931
which was a game
that she didn't even play.

582
00:26:05,031 --> 00:26:07,166
And I'm thinking,
"Well, you know,

583
00:26:07,266 --> 00:26:08,000
a little offshore drilling,

584
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:09,035
what difference
is it gonna make?

585
00:26:09,135 --> 00:26:10,870
I intend to be married
to my wife forever.

586
00:26:10,970 --> 00:26:15,708
I'm faithful in my heart,"
which I truly was.

587
00:26:15,808 --> 00:26:18,110
I felt like I could do
the whole thing

588
00:26:18,210 --> 00:26:20,880
on a don't-ask-don't-tell basis
and everything would be fine.

589
00:26:20,980 --> 00:26:22,849
But, you know, the problem is

590
00:26:22,949 --> 00:26:24,717
that she was then
continuously trying to trick me

591
00:26:24,817 --> 00:26:27,519
into lies of commission,

592
00:26:27,620 --> 00:26:28,721
which were different
from lies of omission.

593
00:26:28,821 --> 00:26:31,523
You can't just up-front lie
to the other party

594
00:26:31,624 --> 00:26:35,327
and expect your relationship
to survive it.

595
00:26:35,427 --> 00:26:37,664
Eventually, it just had
this terribly erosive effect,

596
00:26:37,764 --> 00:26:38,831
and it ended this.

597
00:26:38,931 --> 00:26:39,899
I mean, there were a lot
of things that ended this

598
00:26:39,999 --> 00:26:42,702
besides that --
And not the least of which

599
00:26:42,802 --> 00:26:46,538
was that there was no sexuality
at the core of it.

600
00:26:46,639 --> 00:26:48,307
-Why does good sex
so often fade,

601
00:26:48,407 --> 00:26:52,111
even for couples who continue to
love each other as much as ever?

602
00:26:52,211 --> 00:26:55,381
Why does good intimacy
not guarantee good sex?

603
00:26:55,481 --> 00:26:56,649
Can we want
what we already have?

604
00:26:56,749 --> 00:26:58,651
And why is the forbidden
so erotic?

605
00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:02,221
-Now they're radiant
with excitement

606
00:27:02,321 --> 00:27:05,257
and the thrill of taking matters
into their own hands.

607
00:27:05,357 --> 00:27:08,494
When this excitement
of the moment settles down,

608
00:27:08,594 --> 00:27:09,696
what will remain?

609
00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:13,399
-Being in love
is like being high.

610
00:27:13,499 --> 00:27:15,702
I mean, you're wild,
and you feel it.

611
00:27:15,802 --> 00:27:20,707
And I think that has
to transform into love,

612
00:27:22,709 --> 00:27:26,746
because that state is like
you know, snorting coke.

613
00:27:26,846 --> 00:27:30,582
It's not a state that
you can live in all the time.

614
00:27:30,683 --> 00:27:32,384
-I don't think I'm alone
in the world

615
00:27:32,484 --> 00:27:34,220
in having a relationship

616
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,156
going from being very sexual
to not as sexual

617
00:27:37,256 --> 00:27:39,525
because it's evolved
into other things.

618
00:27:39,625 --> 00:27:41,593
It's become more
of a companionship

619
00:27:41,694 --> 00:27:45,497
and it's become more
of a sense of complicity

620
00:27:45,597 --> 00:27:47,399
and settledness.

621
00:27:47,834 --> 00:27:49,902
-I'm curious in the tension

622
00:27:50,002 --> 00:27:54,273
between passion and aliveness
and freedom on one side

623
00:27:54,373 --> 00:27:57,443
and security and stability
on the other.

624
00:27:57,543 --> 00:28:00,546
-We're fed this story
that we're supposed to be able

625
00:28:00,646 --> 00:28:03,015
to find a lifelong,
monogamous pairing

626
00:28:03,115 --> 00:28:06,652
that continues to be sexually
juicy at the same time,

627
00:28:06,753 --> 00:28:09,722
but you're each other's
co-parent for children,

628
00:28:09,822 --> 00:28:10,823
you're running a household
together,

629
00:28:10,923 --> 00:28:12,725
you're sharing
all of your finances,

630
00:28:12,825 --> 00:28:14,093
you're dealing with logistics

631
00:28:14,193 --> 00:28:15,294
and picking up
the dry-cleaning together.

632
00:28:15,394 --> 00:28:16,295
-In one relationship,

633
00:28:16,395 --> 00:28:20,132
we want security,
stability, dependability --

634
00:28:20,232 --> 00:28:22,134
all the anchoring,
grounding experiences of life.

635
00:28:22,234 --> 00:28:26,405
And at the same time,
we also want our love life

636
00:28:26,505 --> 00:28:28,908
to bring with it mystery and awe

637
00:28:29,008 --> 00:28:32,211
and the unpredictable
and novelty and surprise

638
00:28:32,311 --> 00:28:36,215
and the unexpected
and that which fuels desire.

639
00:28:36,582 --> 00:28:38,918
**

640
00:28:39,018 --> 00:28:40,619
-Every new relationship
that's sexual

641
00:28:40,719 --> 00:28:42,154
is kind of an adventure,

642
00:28:42,254 --> 00:28:44,656
and then the adventure
goes away.

643
00:28:44,757 --> 00:28:47,093
Then it's just kind of
where you live,

644
00:28:47,193 --> 00:28:49,328
and it's not an adventure
anymore.

645
00:28:49,428 --> 00:28:50,329
It's not a surprise anymore.

646
00:28:50,429 --> 00:28:53,465
And how can you continue
to surprise each other

647
00:28:53,565 --> 00:28:54,934
without feeling like

648
00:28:55,034 --> 00:28:58,104
you're having to pull rabbits
out of a hat all the time?

649
00:28:58,204 --> 00:29:02,241
**

650
00:29:02,341 --> 00:29:05,111
-People go into relationships
and go into marriage

651
00:29:05,211 --> 00:29:06,245
with some really
misguided notions

652
00:29:06,345 --> 00:29:08,547
about what it should
and what it should not be.

653
00:29:09,615 --> 00:29:11,083
There's a depth of connection
that you have in monogamy

654
00:29:11,183 --> 00:29:13,085
that you just don't have
otherwise.

655
00:29:13,185 --> 00:29:15,487
You're happier.
There's a sense of safety.

656
00:29:15,587 --> 00:29:18,424
-But that very sense of safety
that you're talking about

657
00:29:18,524 --> 00:29:20,126
is the antithesis of sexuality.

658
00:29:20,226 --> 00:29:23,295
-I don't --
I wholeheartedly disagree.

659
00:29:23,395 --> 00:29:26,098
We need to differentiate
between sexuality and intimacy,

660
00:29:26,198 --> 00:29:29,035
because I think anybody
can get naked and have sex,

661
00:29:29,135 --> 00:29:31,403
and, you know,
it can be pleasurable.

662
00:29:31,503 --> 00:29:34,373
But not everybody can reach
a deep emotional place

663
00:29:34,473 --> 00:29:35,975
with somebody else,

664
00:29:36,075 --> 00:29:38,177
and that's what I believe
that you can only do

665
00:29:38,277 --> 00:29:41,613
when you're in a committed
relationship with someone else.

666
00:29:41,713 --> 00:29:42,982
-If love isn't eroticized --

667
00:29:43,082 --> 00:29:46,152
if it remains something rational
and something ethical

668
00:29:46,252 --> 00:29:48,921
and something
unchanging and eternal --

669
00:29:49,021 --> 00:29:51,824
then we go through life
in a kind of despair.

670
00:29:51,924 --> 00:29:54,426
And a lot of people
think of love this way,

671
00:29:54,526 --> 00:29:56,728
but it makes human existence,
this mortal existence,

672
00:29:56,829 --> 00:29:59,098
a kind of waste of time.

673
00:29:59,198 --> 00:30:02,701
From the other side,
if Eros isn't spiritualized...

674
00:30:02,801 --> 00:30:03,870
-Power hungry, domineering.

675
00:30:03,970 --> 00:30:05,737
-...then life becomes

676
00:30:05,838 --> 00:30:08,774
just this transient,
animal sort of existence

677
00:30:08,875 --> 00:30:12,511
where we're driven
from one satisfaction
of appetite to another.

678
00:30:14,046 --> 00:30:17,016
-And so we can stay married
and not be sexually,

679
00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:18,951
to each other,
who we were at the start.

680
00:30:19,051 --> 00:30:22,221
We have to recognize, though,
that adult human beings

681
00:30:22,321 --> 00:30:25,691
want to feel that kind of sexual
passion and that kind of desire.

682
00:30:25,791 --> 00:30:27,526
-We are basically
asking one person today

683
00:30:27,626 --> 00:30:31,630
to give us two sets
of fundamental human needs

684
00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:33,199
that spring
from different sources,

685
00:30:33,299 --> 00:30:36,768
take us in different directions,
as if they are one.

686
00:30:36,869 --> 00:30:40,472
How you reconcile
the domestic and the erotic

687
00:30:40,572 --> 00:30:42,341
or your need for security
with your need for passion

688
00:30:42,441 --> 00:30:45,644
with the same person
isn't a problem that you solve.

689
00:30:45,744 --> 00:30:47,346
It's a paradox that you manage.

690
00:30:47,446 --> 00:30:51,083
**

691
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,488
-I can't help noticing
you guys are dressed the same.

692
00:30:56,588 --> 00:30:58,190
Is that a coincidence?
-That is a coincidence.

693
00:30:58,290 --> 00:30:59,992
-That is kind of
a coincidence, yeah.

694
00:31:00,092 --> 00:31:01,727
-The longer you're together,
the more you look alike.

695
00:31:01,827 --> 00:31:02,728
-Yeah, I guess that's true.

696
00:31:02,828 --> 00:31:04,830
[ Both chuckle ]

697
00:31:04,931 --> 00:31:06,432
-So, how did you guys meet?

698
00:31:06,532 --> 00:31:08,968
-Um...
-Um...

699
00:31:09,068 --> 00:31:13,072
-Well, we got snowed in
on New Year's Eve,

700
00:31:13,172 --> 00:31:16,142
ended up having to all
share a big bed

701
00:31:16,242 --> 00:31:17,643
in the middle
of the living room.

702
00:31:17,743 --> 00:31:18,978
And she and I stayed up talking,

703
00:31:19,078 --> 00:31:21,347
and by the end of the night,
we were dating.

704
00:31:21,447 --> 00:31:22,915
[ Chuckles ]

705
00:31:23,015 --> 00:31:25,284
-What is the meaning of marriage
for you guys?

706
00:31:25,384 --> 00:31:27,353
-Companionship.
-Companionship, stability.

707
00:31:27,453 --> 00:31:29,888
You have somebody
to fall back on

708
00:31:29,989 --> 00:31:32,424
and know is gonna be there
when you need someone.

709
00:31:32,524 --> 00:31:34,293
Both of us are on
our second marriage.

710
00:31:34,393 --> 00:31:37,496
Both of us had spouses who
decided to look for the mystery

711
00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:39,498
and look for something else.

712
00:31:39,598 --> 00:31:43,002
So it makes us not think
in that way, I think,

713
00:31:43,102 --> 00:31:46,038
because we've wanted that
stability in the first place,

714
00:31:46,138 --> 00:31:47,773
so we've found it now
and we're happy.

715
00:31:47,873 --> 00:31:51,944
**

716
00:32:01,187 --> 00:32:02,688
-Tell me about
this marriage here.

717
00:32:02,788 --> 00:32:03,956
What does this represent to you?

718
00:32:04,056 --> 00:32:05,824
-Allora, this marriage here
is very interesting

719
00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:08,961
because this was
Ortensia Farnese,

720
00:32:09,061 --> 00:32:12,431
who was the niece
of the Pope Paul III Farnese.

721
00:32:12,531 --> 00:32:16,835
And he gave Vignanello
to his niece, Ortensia,

722
00:32:16,935 --> 00:32:20,606
who married this man here,

723
00:32:20,706 --> 00:32:25,644
who was Sforza Ercole Marescotti
from Bologna, this one here.

724
00:32:25,744 --> 00:32:27,779
That's where our family comes
into Vignanello --

725
00:32:27,879 --> 00:32:29,315
beginning of 1500.

726
00:32:31,017 --> 00:32:32,418
She was the niece of the pope,

727
00:32:32,518 --> 00:32:36,422
so she was very powerful --
very powerful.

728
00:32:36,522 --> 00:32:40,993
So she kills her husband
in this room,

729
00:32:41,093 --> 00:32:44,730
and she razes his coat of arm.

730
00:32:44,830 --> 00:32:46,999
-Do we know why she was
so angry with him to kill?

731
00:32:47,099 --> 00:32:48,067
-One minute, one minute.

732
00:32:48,167 --> 00:32:50,402
She had other two husbands
after him,

733
00:32:50,502 --> 00:32:52,971
and both, she had them killed
in the village.

734
00:32:53,072 --> 00:32:54,140
She didn't like these men.

735
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,076
There was no lawyers then,
luckily.

736
00:32:57,176 --> 00:32:59,045
You poisoned the people
in those times, right?

737
00:32:59,145 --> 00:33:01,113
If you didn't want --
To get rid of them,

738
00:33:01,213 --> 00:33:02,381
you didn't have
those stupid lawyers

739
00:33:02,481 --> 00:33:06,918
who suck your blood from here
and nothing happens, ever.

740
00:33:07,019 --> 00:33:08,587
I hate the lawyers.

741
00:33:08,687 --> 00:33:12,124
At least -- Ciao,
and light, little drink

742
00:33:12,224 --> 00:33:14,126
or a bang on your head
or whatever,

743
00:33:14,226 --> 00:33:16,828
and, ciao, much easier.

744
00:33:16,928 --> 00:33:20,132
**

745
00:33:26,872 --> 00:33:28,607
-I'm very skeptical of the idea

746
00:33:28,707 --> 00:33:31,243
that there is anything hardwired
in human beings.

747
00:33:31,343 --> 00:33:34,946
Unlike animals, who have
to respond in programmed ways,

748
00:33:35,047 --> 00:33:37,416
we can make choices,
and we do make choices.

749
00:33:39,485 --> 00:33:43,255
-The Mosuo people of mountains
of Southwestern China,

750
00:33:43,355 --> 00:33:45,791
they separate the realm
of desire and domesticity.

751
00:33:45,891 --> 00:33:49,261
You separate family life,
which is a daytime activity,

752
00:33:49,361 --> 00:33:52,164
from sexuality, romance,
and love,

753
00:33:52,264 --> 00:33:54,500
which is primarily
a nighttime activity.

754
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,305
Men and women alike can invite
or refuse sexual relationships

755
00:34:00,239 --> 00:34:03,175
with as many people
as they do or don't want.

756
00:34:03,275 --> 00:34:05,711
Children are raised
by their mothers,

757
00:34:05,811 --> 00:34:07,179
their grandmothers,

758
00:34:07,279 --> 00:34:09,248
their mothers' sisters
and brothers.

759
00:34:09,348 --> 00:34:12,618
And so biological paternity
is irrelevant.

760
00:34:12,718 --> 00:34:16,322
-Among the Inuit, men and wife,
by mutual consent,

761
00:34:16,422 --> 00:34:19,125
may allow the wife
to have an affair

762
00:34:19,225 --> 00:34:21,260
or to sleep with a guest
who's coming overnight

763
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,295
or even to travel
with a different man.

764
00:34:23,395 --> 00:34:26,498
Sexual infidelity,
under certain circumstances,

765
00:34:26,598 --> 00:34:28,667
is perfectly okay
within marriage.

766
00:34:30,202 --> 00:34:32,371
Among the Bari of Venezuela,

767
00:34:32,471 --> 00:34:34,273
a woman is actually encouraged

768
00:34:34,373 --> 00:34:36,408
to take lovers
during her pregnancy.

769
00:34:36,508 --> 00:34:40,346
Every man who sleeps with
a woman while she is pregnant

770
00:34:40,446 --> 00:34:44,183
is considered to give something
of his substance to the child.

771
00:34:44,283 --> 00:34:45,651
-Like mothers everywhere,
she wants to have

772
00:34:45,751 --> 00:34:49,321
the smartest, funniest,
strongest kid she can.

773
00:34:49,421 --> 00:34:51,690
She'll have sex with
the funny guy and the strong guy

774
00:34:51,790 --> 00:34:55,427
and the guy who's a good hunter
and the most intelligent guy

775
00:34:55,527 --> 00:34:58,997
to get the essence of all these
different men into her baby.

776
00:34:59,097 --> 00:35:00,232
And then,
when the child's born,

777
00:35:00,332 --> 00:35:02,168
these different men
will come forward and say,

778
00:35:02,268 --> 00:35:03,302
"Yes, I'm a father.
Yes, I'm a father."

779
00:35:03,402 --> 00:35:06,104
So fatherhood's
a team enterprise.

780
00:35:06,205 --> 00:35:09,107
-But the tremendous variability
of everything

781
00:35:09,208 --> 00:35:12,178
from social structures
to personal relationships,

782
00:35:12,278 --> 00:35:13,412
throughout history,

783
00:35:13,512 --> 00:35:17,516
suggests to me that
it's just a just-so story

784
00:35:17,616 --> 00:35:22,087
to pretend that any way we
behave is encoded in our genes.

785
00:35:22,188 --> 00:35:24,556
-I think everyone's different.

786
00:35:24,656 --> 00:35:27,159
I think, for me,
monogamy is important, though.

787
00:35:27,259 --> 00:35:28,660
-I'm pretty traditional,
I guess.

788
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,164
I think it's essential
to a relationship.

789
00:35:32,264 --> 00:35:33,932
-I think
monogamy is important --

790
00:35:34,032 --> 00:35:35,734
and commitment.

791
00:35:35,834 --> 00:35:39,638
It lets you focus on...

792
00:35:39,738 --> 00:35:42,107
what you can build together
in this relationship,

793
00:35:42,208 --> 00:35:43,742
out of trust.

794
00:35:43,842 --> 00:35:45,244
And I think,
to make a relationship work,

795
00:35:45,344 --> 00:35:48,380
it has to be the most important
thing in your life,

796
00:35:48,814 --> 00:35:49,715
and he was.

797
00:35:51,217 --> 00:35:53,685
But then, what happens
is you end up cutting off

798
00:35:53,785 --> 00:35:58,824
parts of my sense of adventure
and curiosity about life.

799
00:35:59,658 --> 00:36:03,161
And so at a certain point, I had
to come back to my true nature,

800
00:36:03,262 --> 00:36:06,932
and that was not to be married,
in a relationship

801
00:36:07,032 --> 00:36:09,801
with what felt claustrophobic,

802
00:36:09,901 --> 00:36:14,873
what felt like it was limiting
rather than expansive.

803
00:36:15,641 --> 00:36:17,075
-After how many years did you
start to feel this way?

804
00:36:17,175 --> 00:36:18,777
-About seven years.

805
00:36:20,846 --> 00:36:21,780
-So, she came.

806
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,649
I was able to provide
this incredible world

807
00:36:23,749 --> 00:36:26,218
and the sense of stability
and the sense of excitement

808
00:36:26,318 --> 00:36:28,153
and bring her into my world.

809
00:36:28,254 --> 00:36:31,923
And then, as she became
more and more successful,

810
00:36:32,023 --> 00:36:33,792
I became emasculated.

811
00:36:33,892 --> 00:36:37,496
And I think that it...

812
00:36:38,564 --> 00:36:39,631
It...

813
00:36:43,101 --> 00:36:45,971
Yeah, it was,
I felt very vulnerable.

814
00:36:46,071 --> 00:36:50,242
**

815
00:36:58,083 --> 00:37:02,288
-How I feel about love
is I'm trying to learn, at 73,

816
00:37:02,388 --> 00:37:04,690
to believe and feel
and internalize

817
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:08,627
that somebody loves me
their way,

818
00:37:08,727 --> 00:37:11,997
not my idea
of what they should be doing

819
00:37:12,097 --> 00:37:13,999
or my idea of what I want back.

820
00:37:14,099 --> 00:37:15,334
-For philosophers
like Kierkegaard,

821
00:37:15,434 --> 00:37:19,571
love was a place where
you could bring your desires

822
00:37:19,671 --> 00:37:22,774
into communion with your reason

823
00:37:22,874 --> 00:37:25,877
and have a genuine synthesis,
a genuine harmony.

824
00:37:25,977 --> 00:37:29,214
-And then I fell in love,
like they do in movies --

825
00:37:29,315 --> 00:37:31,783
you know, like in Shakespeare
or opera, I mean.

826
00:37:31,883 --> 00:37:33,752
And, you know, I think
it's an unusual condition,

827
00:37:33,852 --> 00:37:36,688
and it generally ends with
everybody dead on the stage.

828
00:37:36,788 --> 00:37:38,624
But I had
one of those experiences.

829
00:37:38,724 --> 00:37:39,791
I looked across a crowded room,

830
00:37:39,891 --> 00:37:41,026
and I knew,
for the first time in my life.

831
00:37:41,126 --> 00:37:43,729
I hadn't even seen her face yet.

832
00:37:43,829 --> 00:37:45,431
And, you know,
she turned at looked at me

833
00:37:45,531 --> 00:37:47,766
and had the same deal,

834
00:37:47,866 --> 00:37:50,235
and we were living together
a week later

835
00:37:50,336 --> 00:37:51,870
in spite of the fact
that she was freshly married

836
00:37:51,970 --> 00:37:53,905
to somebody
far better qualified than me.

837
00:37:54,005 --> 00:37:57,075
And during the time
that we were together,

838
00:37:57,175 --> 00:38:00,245
I could see the beauty of women,

839
00:38:00,346 --> 00:38:02,247
appreciate it
even better than usual,

840
00:38:02,348 --> 00:38:05,116
because it was detached
from any desire to own.

841
00:38:05,216 --> 00:38:08,086
It was like knowing
that the mountains are
beautiful at sunset

842
00:38:08,186 --> 00:38:11,156
without having the slightest
desire to own the mountains.

843
00:38:11,256 --> 00:38:12,724
I didn't even think

844
00:38:12,824 --> 00:38:16,094
that this was something
that existed in men.

845
00:38:16,194 --> 00:38:20,999
And then I put her on her plane
in Los Angeles one night,

846
00:38:22,334 --> 00:38:24,102
2 days before her 30th birthday.

847
00:38:24,202 --> 00:38:29,074
And when she got off that plane
in New York, she was dead.

848
00:38:29,675 --> 00:38:32,511
**

849
00:38:32,611 --> 00:38:35,881
I had never put all my eggs
in one emotional basket

850
00:38:35,981 --> 00:38:37,483
like that before,

851
00:38:37,583 --> 00:38:39,551
and I was completely devastated.

852
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,021
[ Sniffles ]

853
00:38:44,690 --> 00:38:46,992
I had then experienced
voluntary monogamy

854
00:38:47,092 --> 00:38:49,528
and involuntary monogamy,

855
00:38:49,628 --> 00:38:57,102
and I decided that I was not
gonna try to be monogamous again

856
00:38:57,202 --> 00:39:02,073
unless I felt that same
kind of completely
voluntary sense of it.

857
00:39:02,173 --> 00:39:04,142
[ Fireworks exploding ]

858
00:39:04,242 --> 00:39:10,081
-The idea of losing
all of this love,

859
00:39:10,181 --> 00:39:11,583
all of this family --

860
00:39:11,683 --> 00:39:14,486
My whole identity had gotten
wrapped up in this,

861
00:39:14,586 --> 00:39:16,287
for better or worse.

862
00:39:16,388 --> 00:39:20,191
And the idea of losing that
was really scary.

863
00:39:20,291 --> 00:39:21,660
And then, when it happened,

864
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,396
it was even worse
than I expected.

865
00:39:24,496 --> 00:39:26,231
And I remember my mother,
you know,

866
00:39:26,331 --> 00:39:29,435
being in a very interesting
position

867
00:39:29,535 --> 00:39:31,236
to help me through this,
because on the one hand,

868
00:39:31,336 --> 00:39:33,405
she saw me suffering

869
00:39:33,505 --> 00:39:35,240
and wanted
to take care of her son

870
00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:36,274
that's, like,
in this terrible position.

871
00:39:36,374 --> 00:39:37,443
But at the same time,

872
00:39:37,543 --> 00:39:40,446
I think she related
very much to my wife.

873
00:39:40,546 --> 00:39:45,016
She helped me to understand
that it wasn't about me.

874
00:39:46,217 --> 00:39:48,520
-If you really love someone,

875
00:39:48,620 --> 00:39:51,890
it's about wanting them
to be a full human being,

876
00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:54,025
wanting them to, to grow,

877
00:39:54,125 --> 00:39:57,028
wanting them to be fulfilled,

878
00:39:57,128 --> 00:39:59,831
whether it's with me or not.

879
00:39:59,931 --> 00:40:04,870
And in your breakup,
I saw that pivotal moment

880
00:40:06,271 --> 00:40:08,039
where you were
in so much pain --

881
00:40:08,139 --> 00:40:09,541
everything that validated you,

882
00:40:09,641 --> 00:40:13,845
everything that
you had created together,

883
00:40:13,945 --> 00:40:16,014
the years
that you spent together.

884
00:40:16,114 --> 00:40:18,450
But at that moment,
to really question,

885
00:40:18,550 --> 00:40:20,018
"What is love?

886
00:40:20,118 --> 00:40:25,090
If I love this person,
how do I deal with my own pain?

887
00:40:25,557 --> 00:40:27,626
How do I let go with love?"

888
00:40:30,829 --> 00:40:32,764
And you were able to do that.

889
00:40:34,933 --> 00:40:38,937
**

890
00:40:49,481 --> 00:40:53,552
**

891
00:41:01,827 --> 00:41:06,698
**

892
00:41:15,841 --> 00:41:20,712
**

893
00:41:39,565 --> 00:41:40,699
-First of all, you've known me
since I was a kid.

894
00:41:40,799 --> 00:41:42,701
You've known my mom
since high school.

895
00:41:42,801 --> 00:41:44,636
I can understand
the impulse that says,

896
00:41:44,736 --> 00:41:46,538
"I've really gotten to know
this person.

897
00:41:46,638 --> 00:41:47,405
I know everything
they're gonna say

898
00:41:47,505 --> 00:41:49,975
before they say it.
I'm bored."

899
00:41:50,075 --> 00:41:51,810
So then you say, "Okay.
Well, we've had a great run,

900
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:54,479
and let's part ways."
-Sure.

901
00:41:54,580 --> 00:41:55,413
-And there's this great
Nietzsche line --

902
00:41:55,513 --> 00:41:56,548
"I like a life
of brief habits" --

903
00:41:56,648 --> 00:41:59,384
because I get totally immersed
in something,

904
00:41:59,484 --> 00:42:01,452
and then we part ways
as friends,

905
00:42:01,553 --> 00:42:03,655
having learned something
from each other.

906
00:42:03,755 --> 00:42:04,790
-Yeah.
-And then we continue to grow.

907
00:42:04,890 --> 00:42:06,592
Do you think there's
something more enriching

908
00:42:06,692 --> 00:42:09,027
with this, like,
soul mate for life

909
00:42:09,127 --> 00:42:11,529
than somebody who has
a relationship every 10 years

910
00:42:11,630 --> 00:42:14,432
and then has the next thing

911
00:42:14,532 --> 00:42:15,400
because they've
really outgrown it

912
00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:16,602
and they just have exhausted

913
00:42:16,702 --> 00:42:18,704
all the possibilities
of that relationship?

914
00:42:18,804 --> 00:42:20,572
-Yeah.
If people can stay together,

915
00:42:20,672 --> 00:42:23,541
the relationship can change,
the dynamics change.

916
00:42:23,642 --> 00:42:26,578
But if you can expand
and include,

917
00:42:26,678 --> 00:42:30,481
then as you get older
and get more life behind you,

918
00:42:30,582 --> 00:42:32,550
you have a larger family,
a larger tribe,

919
00:42:32,651 --> 00:42:34,653
a larger connectivity
to society.

920
00:42:34,753 --> 00:42:36,722
You have more people
who you care about

921
00:42:36,822 --> 00:42:39,557
and, you know,
theoretically care about you.

922
00:42:39,658 --> 00:42:41,326
That's, I think,
a much better model than,

923
00:42:41,426 --> 00:42:42,293
"Okay.
I've done this for 10 years.

924
00:42:42,393 --> 00:42:44,696
I've had this experience.

925
00:42:44,796 --> 00:42:46,965
I've taken what I need.
I'm a bigger, better person.

926
00:42:47,065 --> 00:42:49,868
And now I'm gonna go over here
and have more of my experience

927
00:42:49,968 --> 00:42:52,904
and become more of me and --"
No.

928
00:42:53,004 --> 00:42:54,305
Most people, if you walk
around the streets

929
00:42:54,405 --> 00:42:56,174
and look at their faces,

930
00:42:56,274 --> 00:42:58,209
they're fucking miserable --

931
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:59,745
miserable because they're living

932
00:42:59,845 --> 00:43:02,948
in a shallow pool
of nothingness.

933
00:43:03,048 --> 00:43:07,052
**

934
00:43:07,152 --> 00:43:08,353
-Where are we now?

935
00:43:08,453 --> 00:43:09,721
Because last time we talked,
we were in the castle.

936
00:43:09,821 --> 00:43:11,356
What is this place?
-[ Speaking indistinctly ]

937
00:43:11,456 --> 00:43:14,259
This used to be Palazzo Ruspoli.

938
00:43:14,359 --> 00:43:21,032
This used to be all in the hands
of your father and my father.

939
00:43:21,132 --> 00:43:24,235
This was a name.
It was an identity.

940
00:43:24,335 --> 00:43:26,204
It was in our family since 1700.

941
00:43:26,304 --> 00:43:29,741
We give up everything.
For what? For sex.

942
00:43:29,841 --> 00:43:31,810
-So, how was this
given up for sex?

943
00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:35,914
Because Dado basically
ran after women,

944
00:43:36,014 --> 00:43:39,718
not thinking about the future.

945
00:43:39,818 --> 00:43:42,854
Dado had five children
from different women, you know,

946
00:43:42,954 --> 00:43:45,957
and my father had, you know,
all of these wives.

947
00:43:46,057 --> 00:43:48,827
But where is the wife
with the money?

948
00:43:48,927 --> 00:43:52,097
-I think Sigmund Freud
really had it right in his book

949
00:43:52,197 --> 00:43:53,431
"Civilization
and its Discontents,"

950
00:43:53,531 --> 00:43:57,268
when he was talking about the
sexual urge being so powerful

951
00:43:57,368 --> 00:43:58,704
and the needs of society

952
00:43:58,804 --> 00:44:03,641
being completely contrary
to the urges that people feel.

953
00:44:03,742 --> 00:44:06,678
The first legal collections
out of Mesopotamia

954
00:44:06,778 --> 00:44:09,748
were consumed
with questions of marriage --

955
00:44:09,848 --> 00:44:13,218
monogamy, adultery,
sexual issues, bestiality,

956
00:44:13,318 --> 00:44:14,252
things like that.

957
00:44:14,352 --> 00:44:16,154
And it was seen, primarily,

958
00:44:16,254 --> 00:44:19,958
as necessary to visit
the worst kinds of punishments

959
00:44:20,058 --> 00:44:22,127
on those who broke sexual rules,

960
00:44:22,227 --> 00:44:26,031
and specifically,
those were adulterous women.

961
00:44:26,131 --> 00:44:29,701
The first death-penalty statute
I could find on Earth

962
00:44:29,801 --> 00:44:34,172
was the impalement of a wife
for committing adultery.

963
00:44:35,206 --> 00:44:36,908
-But you know why your father
and my father

964
00:44:37,008 --> 00:44:38,543
never wanted women with money?

965
00:44:38,643 --> 00:44:40,846
There's a reason.
-Why?

966
00:44:40,946 --> 00:44:43,014
-Because they always said --
both of them --

967
00:44:43,114 --> 00:44:45,884
that women with money
try to control them

968
00:44:45,984 --> 00:44:47,919
and they do not want
to be controlled.

969
00:44:48,019 --> 00:44:50,756
They always told me --
my father and your father.

970
00:44:50,856 --> 00:44:54,559
This is a very Latin,
macho way of thinking --

971
00:44:54,659 --> 00:44:57,628
of the insecurity of men.

972
00:44:57,729 --> 00:45:00,531
-The laws surrounding sex

973
00:45:00,631 --> 00:45:05,003
generally reflect
man's terror at women --

974
00:45:06,404 --> 00:45:10,341
man's terror
at women's reproductive power,

975
00:45:10,441 --> 00:45:13,178
man's sense of helplessness
in front of women,

976
00:45:13,278 --> 00:45:17,082
and our desire to do anything
that we can do

977
00:45:17,182 --> 00:45:19,851
to tell ourselves that
we have control over forces

978
00:45:19,951 --> 00:45:22,187
that we really, in life,

979
00:45:22,287 --> 00:45:23,955
feel like we have
no control over whatsoever.

980
00:45:24,055 --> 00:45:25,857
[ Sentimental music plays ]

981
00:45:25,957 --> 00:45:28,026
-Do you think you can
help us get married?

982
00:45:28,126 --> 00:45:29,928
-Why, I'm in favor of marriage.

983
00:45:30,028 --> 00:45:32,764
-The United States government
has made a decision --

984
00:45:32,864 --> 00:45:35,801
a long-standing
public-policy objective --

985
00:45:35,901 --> 00:45:38,436
to encourage its citizens
to get married.

986
00:45:38,536 --> 00:45:42,307
Part of this comes from lack of
separation of church and state

987
00:45:42,407 --> 00:45:45,443
and Judeo-Christian morality

988
00:45:45,543 --> 00:45:48,980
that this is the best way
to organize families.

989
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,449
People call this
the marital-industrial complex.

990
00:45:51,549 --> 00:45:53,518
-* I will be your Casanova

991
00:45:53,618 --> 00:45:56,521
* With that, you must agree

992
00:45:56,621 --> 00:45:58,589
-* I know you're a Casanova

993
00:45:58,689 --> 00:46:01,626
* But you'll have to marry me

994
00:46:01,726 --> 00:46:03,895
[ Swing music plays ]

995
00:46:03,995 --> 00:46:07,365
-I think, if you're ready
to get married --

996
00:46:07,465 --> 00:46:09,600
-How long?
-I wasn't ready to get married.

997
00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:11,369
So -- Well, but we did.
So I don't know.

998
00:46:11,469 --> 00:46:12,838
-Why'd you get married?

999
00:46:12,938 --> 00:46:15,406
-Prom night, I was 19.
She was 17.

1000
00:46:15,506 --> 00:46:16,374
I took her to her prom.

1001
00:46:16,474 --> 00:46:18,376
Nine months later...
-Nine months later...

1002
00:46:18,476 --> 00:46:19,377
-...we got married --

1003
00:46:19,477 --> 00:46:21,880
under the gun, so to speak.

1004
00:46:21,980 --> 00:46:22,848
It's been hard.

1005
00:46:22,948 --> 00:46:24,249
-Montana shotgun wedding.

1006
00:46:24,349 --> 00:46:26,051
-Yeah.
-[ Laughs ]

1007
00:46:26,151 --> 00:46:28,019
-We have an economic system

1008
00:46:28,119 --> 00:46:30,856
that's based on an idea
of a male breadwinner

1009
00:46:30,956 --> 00:46:35,560
and who's supporting
a wife and children.

1010
00:46:35,660 --> 00:46:36,694
This is a way
that the government

1011
00:46:36,794 --> 00:46:38,796
can privatize dependency

1012
00:46:38,897 --> 00:46:40,065
and not have
to take responsibility

1013
00:46:40,165 --> 00:46:42,400
for caring for those single
mothers and their children.

1014
00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:46,504
But that form of social-welfare
state has completely failed.

1015
00:46:46,604 --> 00:46:49,074
The largest group of people
in poverty in America

1016
00:46:49,174 --> 00:46:50,441
are single mothers
and their children --

1017
00:46:50,541 --> 00:46:51,910
more than mentally-ill people,

1018
00:46:52,010 --> 00:46:54,880
drug addicts,
physically-disabled people,

1019
00:46:54,980 --> 00:46:56,247
and people who don't speak
English, combined.

1020
00:46:56,347 --> 00:46:59,951
Going into a government office
and saying, "I need food.

1021
00:47:00,051 --> 00:47:01,452
I need help
to support my children

1022
00:47:01,552 --> 00:47:02,420
so that we don't
become homeless,

1023
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:03,989
like many of the other
single-mother families

1024
00:47:04,089 --> 00:47:06,791
in this country,"
and having the government say,

1025
00:47:06,892 --> 00:47:08,259
"Why don't you get into
a sexual relationship

1026
00:47:08,359 --> 00:47:10,028
with a man
who will support you?"

1027
00:47:10,128 --> 00:47:11,429
is akin to the government
being a pimp

1028
00:47:11,529 --> 00:47:13,064
to poor women in America.

1029
00:47:13,164 --> 00:47:17,502
**

1030
00:47:17,602 --> 00:47:20,939
-"Dear Dan, it's been three
months since my separation.

1031
00:47:22,207 --> 00:47:24,042
Now that I'm single again,

1032
00:47:24,142 --> 00:47:25,210
I have to admit
there's something exciting

1033
00:47:25,310 --> 00:47:27,378
about the idea of starting over,

1034
00:47:28,146 --> 00:47:29,180
of rediscovering myself

1035
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,951
through new experiences
with new people.

1036
00:47:33,051 --> 00:47:34,119
I realize now, looking back,

1037
00:47:34,219 --> 00:47:36,287
that, that attraction
to the new,

1038
00:47:36,387 --> 00:47:38,189
it's always there.

1039
00:47:38,289 --> 00:47:39,657
I think it must be there
for everyone.

1040
00:47:39,757 --> 00:47:42,827
What did you do when you felt
that pull to something new?"

1041
00:47:42,928 --> 00:47:44,629
-I always cheated on --
I just did what I wanted.

1042
00:47:44,729 --> 00:47:47,765
And I think I did it when
I was pissed off at somebody.

1043
00:47:47,865 --> 00:47:50,535
I'd just go find somebody.

1044
00:47:50,635 --> 00:47:53,204
Or when I wanted out and I
didn't have the nerve to do it.

1045
00:47:53,304 --> 00:47:56,841
Women have to make a story up
about it,

1046
00:47:56,942 --> 00:47:58,843
that they're in love
or they're very interesting

1047
00:47:58,944 --> 00:48:01,646
or this person is spiritual.

1048
00:48:01,746 --> 00:48:02,813
You know what?

1049
00:48:02,914 --> 00:48:04,482
You just wanted to get out
and get laid

1050
00:48:04,582 --> 00:48:06,517
and have attention.

1051
00:48:06,617 --> 00:48:10,088
It's more about the attention
and the excitement,

1052
00:48:10,188 --> 00:48:11,822
because, I mean,
sex is sex, you know?

1053
00:48:11,923 --> 00:48:14,192
It's like, how different
is it gonna be?

1054
00:48:14,292 --> 00:48:17,828
But it's all the -- It's all
the building up to it

1055
00:48:17,929 --> 00:48:20,498
and the flirting
and the somebody pursuing you.

1056
00:48:20,598 --> 00:48:23,701
When you're married,
that doesn't happen.

1057
00:48:23,801 --> 00:48:24,902
-But, of course,
the culture tells us
sex isn't that important.

1058
00:48:25,003 --> 00:48:26,704
-I know! The culture tells --
-Right?

1059
00:48:26,804 --> 00:48:28,173
And they accuse you of being...
-I know.

1060
00:48:28,273 --> 00:48:29,307
-...overly concerned with sex,
but that's the one thing that

1061
00:48:29,407 --> 00:48:32,543
we kind of base our monogamous
relationships on, right?

1062
00:48:32,643 --> 00:48:33,911
-Right. The culture says,
"Sex is so unimportant

1063
00:48:34,012 --> 00:48:35,947
that you shouldn't
prioritize it in a marriage,

1064
00:48:36,047 --> 00:48:37,482
but sex is so hugely important

1065
00:48:37,582 --> 00:48:38,783
that you can't have it
with anybody else."

1066
00:48:38,883 --> 00:48:41,919
These forces are in conflict,
culturally.

1067
00:48:42,020 --> 00:48:43,688
We tell people,
"You're a bad person

1068
00:48:43,788 --> 00:48:45,290
if you think too much about sex.

1069
00:48:45,390 --> 00:48:48,960
You're a bad person if you look
at your partner and reject them

1070
00:48:49,060 --> 00:48:50,028
because the sex isn't there."

1071
00:48:50,128 --> 00:48:51,329
And then we look at them
and say,

1072
00:48:51,429 --> 00:48:53,331
"You're a bad person
for fucking somebody else."

1073
00:48:53,431 --> 00:48:55,967
**

1074
00:48:56,067 --> 00:48:58,036
-I have that whole cliche list

1075
00:48:58,136 --> 00:48:59,337
that girls make
in romantic comedies

1076
00:48:59,437 --> 00:49:01,039
where you're like,
"Make your list,

1077
00:49:01,139 --> 00:49:02,473
and then he'll come,
then you'll find the dude."

1078
00:49:02,573 --> 00:49:06,077
I would love to meet somebody
that I don't want to cheat on.

1079
00:49:06,177 --> 00:49:07,212
You know what I mean?

1080
00:49:07,312 --> 00:49:08,379
And I don't even think
it's hard.

1081
00:49:08,479 --> 00:49:11,282
I didn't cheat
in my five-year relationship.

1082
00:49:11,382 --> 00:49:14,052
Well, cheating,
I feel like, comes --

1083
00:49:14,152 --> 00:49:16,054
I'm already lying.
Okay.

1084
00:49:16,154 --> 00:49:18,356
I feel like, for me,
every time I've cheated --

1085
00:49:18,456 --> 00:49:20,758
And I've cheated
in a lot of relationships,

1086
00:49:20,858 --> 00:49:23,028
but not with --
Well, one time with sex,

1087
00:49:23,128 --> 00:49:27,098
most of the time with make outs,
all the time emotionally.

1088
00:49:28,433 --> 00:49:31,569
That's -- I always break up
with a person I'm with

1089
00:49:31,669 --> 00:49:33,204
the minute I cheat.

1090
00:49:33,304 --> 00:49:34,939
I need that to --
Like, as a hook to get me out.

1091
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,142
**

1092
00:49:37,242 --> 00:49:39,177
-I call it
the shadow of the third.

1093
00:49:39,277 --> 00:49:40,378
The shadow of the third

1094
00:49:40,478 --> 00:49:42,580
is, really, the third exists
all the time --

1095
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,582
either in your head,
either in fantasy --

1096
00:49:44,682 --> 00:49:46,017
between you and me,

1097
00:49:46,117 --> 00:49:48,486
either in our memories
of our past

1098
00:49:48,586 --> 00:49:49,687
in acknowledgment that
we've known other people,

1099
00:49:49,787 --> 00:49:52,123
either in reality,
because we've allowed each other

1100
00:49:52,223 --> 00:49:53,891
to be with those thirds.

1101
00:49:53,991 --> 00:49:56,161
But the third exists
all the time.

1102
00:49:56,261 --> 00:49:57,795
-There's a guy at the gym.

1103
00:49:57,895 --> 00:49:58,763
I call him
my Latino guilty pleasure.

1104
00:49:58,863 --> 00:50:03,068
I look at him, but I come home
to my husband, you know?

1105
00:50:03,168 --> 00:50:06,104
And Wendell laughs about it.
Like, he jokes.

1106
00:50:06,204 --> 00:50:07,738
When he's there, he's like,
"Look. There's your dude."

1107
00:50:07,838 --> 00:50:08,806
-Yeah.
-It's funny.

1108
00:50:08,906 --> 00:50:10,075
And you really don't
have to have sex

1109
00:50:10,175 --> 00:50:12,377
with just anybody
who's good looking.

1110
00:50:13,411 --> 00:50:14,845
-And what about porn?
-Some people don't care,

1111
00:50:14,945 --> 00:50:18,683
and some people are like, "Oh,
like, so many guys watch porn,"

1112
00:50:18,783 --> 00:50:23,388
and they just kind of make it,
like, like a mainstream thing.

1113
00:50:23,488 --> 00:50:25,923
Like, am I not enough for you?

1114
00:50:26,023 --> 00:50:27,325
Like, do you know what I mean?

1115
00:50:27,425 --> 00:50:29,194
Like, I'd be, like, offended,

1116
00:50:29,294 --> 00:50:31,229
because I'd be, like,

1117
00:50:31,329 --> 00:50:35,100
you have to, like,
go to, like, porn

1118
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,801
and, like, look at images
of other women.

1119
00:50:36,901 --> 00:50:39,504
It's, like --
Also, I find creepy.

1120
00:50:39,604 --> 00:50:40,838
Like, I don't know.

1121
00:50:40,938 --> 00:50:41,772
Some people think it's,
like, normal,

1122
00:50:41,872 --> 00:50:42,873
but I just think it's creepy

1123
00:50:42,973 --> 00:50:45,110
to, like, watch
someone else have sex.

1124
00:50:45,943 --> 00:50:48,746
-Some couples deny
its existence

1125
00:50:48,846 --> 00:50:51,048
and would rather, you know,

1126
00:50:51,149 --> 00:50:53,284
tighten the hatches
and hunker down

1127
00:50:53,384 --> 00:50:56,854
and make believe that there is
no outside world.

1128
00:50:56,954 --> 00:50:58,856
Okay.

1129
00:50:58,956 --> 00:51:00,958
Then when they find
their partner online
doing porn renting,

1130
00:51:01,058 --> 00:51:03,461
you know, they have a deep sense

1131
00:51:03,561 --> 00:51:05,596
that their partner is
having sex with somebody else.

1132
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,137
-You go against
every other advice columnist

1133
00:51:12,237 --> 00:51:13,704
in the world, probably,

1134
00:51:13,804 --> 00:51:16,073
and say that infidelity
isn't always a bad thing.

1135
00:51:16,174 --> 00:51:17,842
Can you kind of
spell out the times

1136
00:51:17,942 --> 00:51:20,678
where you think that people
have permission to cheat

1137
00:51:20,778 --> 00:51:22,180
and when they don't?

1138
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:23,681
-The difficulty,
when you you talk about

1139
00:51:23,781 --> 00:51:25,483
when it's okay to cheat,

1140
00:51:25,583 --> 00:51:27,718
is that everyone pictures sort
of an idealized newlywed couple,

1141
00:51:27,818 --> 00:51:32,723
together a couple of years,
and then he or she cheats,

1142
00:51:32,823 --> 00:51:33,591
and, of course, that's, like,

1143
00:51:33,691 --> 00:51:34,792
the worst thing
you could possibly do.

1144
00:51:34,892 --> 00:51:40,064
And often, the "cheating"
comes later in a marriage.

1145
00:51:40,598 --> 00:51:41,732
Like, two people
can have 20, 25 years.

1146
00:51:41,832 --> 00:51:43,168
One of them is done with sex.

1147
00:51:43,268 --> 00:51:45,570
One of them actually does not
want to have sex anymore.

1148
00:51:46,537 --> 00:51:50,508
What is that other person
supposed to do?

1149
00:51:50,608 --> 00:51:52,410
Are they supposed to submit
to having their sexual life

1150
00:51:52,510 --> 00:51:54,612
unilaterally declared dead?

1151
00:51:55,980 --> 00:51:56,947
Or are they supposed to divorce?

1152
00:51:57,047 --> 00:51:58,316
What if they can't divorce?

1153
00:51:58,416 --> 00:52:00,751
What if their partner
is dependent on them

1154
00:52:00,851 --> 00:52:02,387
for health insurance or
economically dependent on them

1155
00:52:02,487 --> 00:52:03,421
or they have small children?

1156
00:52:03,521 --> 00:52:04,289
I look at that situation and go,

1157
00:52:04,389 --> 00:52:06,157
"Well, there are
two options there.

1158
00:52:06,257 --> 00:52:07,425
You can leave,
or you can cheat."

1159
00:52:07,525 --> 00:52:09,527
And sometimes cheating
is the least-worst option.

1160
00:52:09,627 --> 00:52:13,231
**

1161
00:52:13,331 --> 00:52:15,266
-What happens
in long-term relationship

1162
00:52:15,366 --> 00:52:19,069
is that people will often create
an illusion of familiarity.

1163
00:52:19,170 --> 00:52:21,472
They really think they know
the person that's next to them.

1164
00:52:21,572 --> 00:52:23,874
In my experience,
they often think they do

1165
00:52:23,974 --> 00:52:26,211
until they find out the other
one has cheated on them,

1166
00:52:26,311 --> 00:52:29,180
and then they realize
that maybe the person

1167
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,218
that lives so close to you,
they may be familial,

1168
00:52:33,318 --> 00:52:36,120
but they're not necessarily
known to you.

1169
00:52:36,221 --> 00:52:39,390
-I look at a marriage,
and I see a history --

1170
00:52:39,490 --> 00:52:41,592
these two people together.

1171
00:52:41,692 --> 00:52:44,161
I see children.
I see property.

1172
00:52:44,262 --> 00:52:47,332
I see two extended families
that have knit together.

1173
00:52:47,432 --> 00:52:48,933
I see a network of friends,

1174
00:52:49,033 --> 00:52:50,435
neighbors,
other relationships --

1175
00:52:50,535 --> 00:52:54,272
all these people emotionally
invested in this partnership.

1176
00:52:54,372 --> 00:52:55,673
Somebody cheated.

1177
00:52:55,773 --> 00:52:56,674
And "the people who think

1178
00:52:56,774 --> 00:52:58,476
that I put too much
importance on sex" say,

1179
00:52:58,576 --> 00:53:01,412
"Oh, no, no, no.
You must discard all of this.

1180
00:53:01,512 --> 00:53:03,681
Divorce and the trauma of it.

1181
00:53:03,781 --> 00:53:07,385
Traumatize your children.
Rip your lives apart.

1182
00:53:07,485 --> 00:53:09,720
Rip these two
extended families apart.

1183
00:53:09,820 --> 00:53:11,789
Force friends and relatives
and neighbors to choose sides."

1184
00:53:11,889 --> 00:53:16,060
They put so much weight on
that one sexual transgression.

1185
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,529
There's a higher loyalty
than just,

1186
00:53:18,629 --> 00:53:20,931
"I didn't touch anybody else,
ever, over 50 years."

1187
00:53:21,031 --> 00:53:25,303
[ Swing music plays ]

1188
00:53:25,403 --> 00:53:28,072
When non-monogamous behavior
destroys a relationship,

1189
00:53:28,172 --> 00:53:28,973
we all hear about it.

1190
00:53:29,073 --> 00:53:30,140
When non-monogamy
saves a marriage,

1191
00:53:30,241 --> 00:53:32,209
it never gets the credit.

1192
00:53:33,143 --> 00:53:36,247
-Very few of us these days

1193
00:53:36,347 --> 00:53:38,383
expect to live our whole lives

1194
00:53:38,483 --> 00:53:40,084
having sex with only one person.

1195
00:53:40,184 --> 00:53:43,354
-We generalize this idea that
the only healthy relationship

1196
00:53:43,454 --> 00:53:45,222
is one man and one woman,
and the fact is,

1197
00:53:45,323 --> 00:53:47,057
most of those
don't even work out.

1198
00:53:47,157 --> 00:53:48,993
-Who were you really with --

1199
00:53:49,093 --> 00:53:51,329
That -- That little, blonde
secretary from the office?

1200
00:53:51,429 --> 00:53:53,264
-Because the mistake,
I think, we made in,

1201
00:53:53,364 --> 00:53:55,833
like, the '50s
and '40s and '60s

1202
00:53:55,933 --> 00:53:59,136
was instead of giving women
the same freedom

1203
00:53:59,236 --> 00:54:00,170
that men had always enjoyed,

1204
00:54:00,271 --> 00:54:01,872
we imposed on men
the same limitations

1205
00:54:01,972 --> 00:54:04,409
and restrictions that
women had always endured.

1206
00:54:04,509 --> 00:54:06,444
-[ Sobbing ]
-The divorce rate's over 50%,

1207
00:54:06,544 --> 00:54:08,513
and the amount of affairs
is even larger,

1208
00:54:08,613 --> 00:54:09,980
and most police calls are
for domestic violence, you know?

1209
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,618
We're not very good at two
people getting along, period.

1210
00:54:13,718 --> 00:54:16,787
-And yet, despite the massive
rates of dissatisfaction,

1211
00:54:16,887 --> 00:54:20,391
lack of female orgasm,
and infidelity in relationships,

1212
00:54:20,491 --> 00:54:22,393
we're still fed this story

1213
00:54:22,493 --> 00:54:23,428
that that's the way
it's supposed to be

1214
00:54:23,528 --> 00:54:24,362
and if it's not working for you,

1215
00:54:24,462 --> 00:54:25,996
there's something wrong
with you.

1216
00:54:26,096 --> 00:54:26,697
-We talk about intimacy.

1217
00:54:26,797 --> 00:54:27,832
People talk a lot
about intimacy.

1218
00:54:27,932 --> 00:54:28,699
But they have intimacy
with their friends.

1219
00:54:28,799 --> 00:54:30,735
They have intimacy
with relatives.

1220
00:54:30,835 --> 00:54:31,936
They have intimacy
with other people,

1221
00:54:32,036 --> 00:54:33,371
but the sex thing,

1222
00:54:33,471 --> 00:54:35,239
there seems, almost, I think,

1223
00:54:35,340 --> 00:54:36,674
this superstitious aura
around it that,

1224
00:54:36,774 --> 00:54:38,743
that thing, you can't have
that thing with everyone else.

1225
00:54:38,843 --> 00:54:40,411
Everything else you do
in a relationship

1226
00:54:40,511 --> 00:54:41,446
you can do with anyone else,
but somehow, this sex thing,

1227
00:54:41,546 --> 00:54:43,381
you can't have
with anybody else.

1228
00:54:43,481 --> 00:54:44,815
-You get a million letters
in an advice column,

1229
00:54:44,915 --> 00:54:48,185
and it's amazing how often
the same, like, sentences pop up

1230
00:54:48,285 --> 00:54:49,286
in a million different letters

1231
00:54:49,387 --> 00:54:51,322
from a million
different couples.

1232
00:54:51,422 --> 00:54:52,690
"But I would take a bullet
for him."

1233
00:54:52,790 --> 00:54:53,991
"I would walk through fire
for her."

1234
00:54:54,091 --> 00:54:55,793
"I can't forgive."

1235
00:54:55,893 --> 00:54:58,929
It's, like, how is forgiving
harder than getting shot?

1236
00:54:59,029 --> 00:55:00,431
-Right.

1237
00:55:00,531 --> 00:55:03,634
-But that seems to be
people's hang-up.

1238
00:55:04,502 --> 00:55:06,671
-If one of you were to slip up
and be with someone else,

1239
00:55:06,771 --> 00:55:10,441
would that be grounds
for ending your marriage?

1240
00:55:10,541 --> 00:55:12,443
-Probably.
-Yeah.

1241
00:55:12,543 --> 00:55:14,545
-His suitcase and crap
would be in the front yard.

1242
00:55:15,780 --> 00:55:17,748
-I'd never talk to him again.

1243
00:55:17,848 --> 00:55:20,485
-Oh, yeah, for sure.
Straight up, just like that.

1244
00:55:20,585 --> 00:55:22,587
Even if I was in love with them,
how can you respect yourself

1245
00:55:22,687 --> 00:55:24,689
if you're gonna get back
with somebody who cheats on you?

1246
00:55:25,623 --> 00:55:28,493
-I was in Cambodia
shooting music videos

1247
00:55:28,593 --> 00:55:30,260
for a Cambodian hip-hop band.

1248
00:55:30,361 --> 00:55:33,631
And she comes over to me
and puts her hand on me.

1249
00:55:33,731 --> 00:55:35,900
"You got to meet my daughter."

1250
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:37,067
-I didn't want to have
anything to do with it,

1251
00:55:37,167 --> 00:55:38,436
and then I sat down

1252
00:55:38,536 --> 00:55:39,937
next to this incredibly
good-looking, cool guy,

1253
00:55:40,037 --> 00:55:41,005
and that was it.

1254
00:55:41,105 --> 00:55:42,607
-We fell in love.

1255
00:55:43,774 --> 00:55:45,643
-We were together for five years
before we got married.

1256
00:55:45,743 --> 00:55:47,912
It felt very safe and nurturing

1257
00:55:48,012 --> 00:55:50,548
and different
than what I had had growing up.

1258
00:55:50,648 --> 00:55:52,383
I was definitely attracted
to the fact

1259
00:55:52,483 --> 00:55:53,518
that he'd grown up in a family

1260
00:55:53,618 --> 00:55:56,387
where the parents
had been together,

1261
00:55:56,487 --> 00:55:57,422
basically, their whole lives.

1262
00:55:57,522 --> 00:55:59,457
-I had a picture-perfect
childhood

1263
00:55:59,557 --> 00:56:02,159
with a lot of stability
and a lot of routine,

1264
00:56:02,259 --> 00:56:05,262
which is something that,
having kids now,

1265
00:56:05,362 --> 00:56:07,665
is a big priority for us.

1266
00:56:07,765 --> 00:56:09,299
-We were the first of
our friends to get married.

1267
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:10,768
We were really young.
-Hmm.

1268
00:56:10,868 --> 00:56:13,638
-And we were also the first
of our friends to have kids.

1269
00:56:14,271 --> 00:56:16,173
-A lot of folks around us,
friends,

1270
00:56:16,273 --> 00:56:18,008
were still just
sort of wild and crazy

1271
00:56:18,108 --> 00:56:19,477
as we were settling into this.

1272
00:56:19,577 --> 00:56:23,514
-Having kids is incredibly
tiring and intense

1273
00:56:23,614 --> 00:56:26,016
and overwhelming,
but we work so well as a team

1274
00:56:26,116 --> 00:56:29,153
that it was actually
incredibly attractive

1275
00:56:29,253 --> 00:56:30,254
to see him become a father.

1276
00:56:30,354 --> 00:56:32,289
That rebonded us again.

1277
00:56:32,389 --> 00:56:34,024
-And I think
what's interesting, too,

1278
00:56:34,124 --> 00:56:36,060
about any long-term relationship

1279
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,396
is that you sort of fall in
and out of love with each other.

1280
00:56:39,497 --> 00:56:41,466
-We have -- and had --
such a close bond,

1281
00:56:41,566 --> 00:56:44,368
and I felt so incredibly
loved by him.

1282
00:56:44,469 --> 00:56:47,171
It was never a question
of whether we were gonna
be monogamous or not.

1283
00:56:47,271 --> 00:56:51,208
It just sort of was our life,
and we were such a pair.

1284
00:56:51,308 --> 00:56:54,512
**

1285
00:56:54,612 --> 00:56:56,313
-Non-monogamous people say,

1286
00:56:56,413 --> 00:56:58,783
"Because I care about you
so much,

1287
00:56:58,883 --> 00:57:01,385
I want you to have
other experiences like that

1288
00:57:01,486 --> 00:57:02,753
with other people.

1289
00:57:02,853 --> 00:57:04,789
Never would I want
to deprive you of that.

1290
00:57:04,889 --> 00:57:07,057
I want you to be able
to have other experiences

1291
00:57:07,157 --> 00:57:11,195
that are meaningful of that sort
with other people.

1292
00:57:11,295 --> 00:57:13,764
And it makes me happy
to be able to give this to you."

1293
00:57:13,864 --> 00:57:16,501
It's a very different
relationship.

1294
00:57:16,601 --> 00:57:17,968
-Polyamory is the idea

1295
00:57:18,068 --> 00:57:20,370
that you can be in more
than one loving relationship.

1296
00:57:20,471 --> 00:57:21,972
It's a different model
than monogamy.

1297
00:57:22,072 --> 00:57:23,941
-It is a model in which
you actually say,

1298
00:57:24,041 --> 00:57:27,077
"One can love more than
one person at the same time,

1299
00:57:27,177 --> 00:57:28,879
and one can construct a system

1300
00:57:28,979 --> 00:57:31,582
that can incorporate
those multiple loves."

1301
00:57:31,682 --> 00:57:33,083
-Most married gay men,

1302
00:57:33,183 --> 00:57:36,621
after they've been together
for five years or so,

1303
00:57:36,721 --> 00:57:40,725
are in, either in action
or in open verbal agreement,

1304
00:57:40,825 --> 00:57:43,494
an open sexual relationship.

1305
00:57:43,594 --> 00:57:44,795
This is to say that they reserve

1306
00:57:44,895 --> 00:57:46,030
the emotional sympathy
for each other,

1307
00:57:46,130 --> 00:57:48,966
but they're having casual sex
with other people.

1308
00:57:49,066 --> 00:57:52,002
They realize that
our biological compulsion

1309
00:57:52,102 --> 00:57:54,672
to have sex with other people
doesn't go away

1310
00:57:54,772 --> 00:57:56,440
the minute
you put a marriage ring on.

1311
00:57:56,541 --> 00:57:58,008
-A friend of ours
came to stay with us,

1312
00:57:58,108 --> 00:58:02,346
and he told us that he and
his wife had an open marriage.

1313
00:58:02,446 --> 00:58:04,081
And we're like, "What?"

1314
00:58:04,181 --> 00:58:06,551
No one we knew
had ever talked about that

1315
00:58:06,651 --> 00:58:08,352
or been in a relationship
like that.

1316
00:58:08,452 --> 00:58:12,590
It kind of sparked
this thing between us,

1317
00:58:12,690 --> 00:58:15,660
where we thought, "Why not?
Let's see what happens."

1318
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,696
We had had nine years
of monogamy

1319
00:58:18,796 --> 00:58:21,599
without even considering
not having it.

1320
00:58:21,699 --> 00:58:26,704
Sandy was brave enough
to allow me to kind of start

1321
00:58:27,638 --> 00:58:29,473
a relationship
with this other person,

1322
00:58:29,574 --> 00:58:33,443
and that was the beginning
of our exploration.

1323
00:58:33,544 --> 00:58:35,279
That was three years ago?

1324
00:58:37,281 --> 00:58:38,315
-The lessons of polyamory

1325
00:58:38,415 --> 00:58:40,150
that are applicable to people
who are monogamous as well

1326
00:58:40,250 --> 00:58:41,719
is the idea that your partner

1327
00:58:41,819 --> 00:58:43,287
does not need
to be everything for you

1328
00:58:43,387 --> 00:58:44,254
and that you can
take responsibility

1329
00:58:44,354 --> 00:58:46,023
for getting your needs met.

1330
00:58:46,123 --> 00:58:48,358
So, for instance, I don't like
to do adventure sports.

1331
00:58:48,458 --> 00:58:49,526
They make me feel like
I'm going to die.

1332
00:58:49,627 --> 00:58:50,761
My partner can go and do that
with somebody else.

1333
00:58:50,861 --> 00:58:54,098
I like to go to dorky policy
conferences all day long.

1334
00:58:54,198 --> 00:58:56,033
My partner doesn't want
to do that, and that's fine.

1335
00:58:57,467 --> 00:58:59,704
-I have been on quite a journey

1336
00:58:59,804 --> 00:59:04,141
from, like, utter shame to utter
celebration of my sexuality.

1337
00:59:04,241 --> 00:59:05,776
I'm the daughter

1338
00:59:05,876 --> 00:59:09,179
of a fundamentalist,
conservative Christian minister,

1339
00:59:09,279 --> 00:59:13,951
and I was hard-core Jesus girl
until I was about 22.

1340
00:59:14,051 --> 00:59:17,822
Vonnegut said, "Every argument
in a marriage boils down to,

1341
00:59:17,922 --> 00:59:20,057
'You're not enough people
for me.'"

1342
00:59:21,091 --> 00:59:23,060
We thought we invented
polyamory, absolutely.

1343
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:26,196
I'm thrilled to have since
read all the literature

1344
00:59:26,296 --> 00:59:27,632
and met many wonderful people,

1345
00:59:27,732 --> 00:59:29,934
but at the time,
it felt really scary

1346
00:59:30,034 --> 00:59:32,102
because of how much
we cared about each other.

1347
00:59:32,202 --> 00:59:34,004
**

1348
00:59:34,104 --> 00:59:35,673
-I've been with Terry
for almost 20 years,

1349
00:59:35,773 --> 00:59:36,607
and we've been together
through thick and thin

1350
00:59:36,707 --> 00:59:37,675
and we've raised a kid together.

1351
00:59:37,775 --> 00:59:38,743
But because we're
publicly non-monogamous,

1352
00:59:38,843 --> 00:59:41,646
I get letters
every fucking day from people,

1353
00:59:41,746 --> 00:59:43,480
saying, "You don't really
love each other.

1354
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:45,049
You're not really committed."

1355
00:59:45,149 --> 00:59:46,116
They will say,
"Every relationship

1356
00:59:46,216 --> 00:59:47,484
I've ever been in
has been monogamous."

1357
00:59:47,584 --> 00:59:48,753
And I will write them back
and say,

1358
00:59:48,853 --> 00:59:50,921
"How many relationships
are you talking about?"

1359
00:59:51,021 --> 00:59:52,322
And they will say,
"Oh, you know, I'm 35,

1360
00:59:52,422 --> 00:59:56,393
and I've had five committed,
monogamous relationships" --

1361
00:59:56,493 --> 00:59:59,730
that you've ended for newness,
for novelty, for new love.

1362
00:59:59,830 --> 01:00:01,699
You've had to discard
these people one at a time.

1363
01:00:01,799 --> 01:00:04,969
I have never discarded Terry,
he's never discarded me,

1364
01:00:05,069 --> 01:00:08,839
and we are less committed
than you with the five exes?

1365
01:00:08,939 --> 01:00:10,140
-Yeah, so you're pro-commitment.
That's what's --

1366
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,810
-I am pro-commitment.
-And all of the other benefits

1367
01:00:12,910 --> 01:00:14,779
that come from what otherwise
people think is only possible

1368
01:00:14,879 --> 01:00:16,480
in a monogamous relationship.

1369
01:00:16,580 --> 01:00:20,517
-Right. And sexual exclusivity
is the enemy of commitment.

1370
01:00:20,617 --> 01:00:23,187
-Polyamory is already
socially acceptable.

1371
01:00:23,287 --> 01:00:25,355
We don't call it polyamory.
We call it divorce.

1372
01:00:25,455 --> 01:00:29,259
So, John marries Susan,
and they have two kids together,

1373
01:00:29,359 --> 01:00:30,961
and then they divorce.

1374
01:00:31,061 --> 01:00:33,263
And John still has
a relationship with
Susan and the kids

1375
01:00:33,363 --> 01:00:35,833
because, you know, John has
to be in the kids' life.

1376
01:00:35,933 --> 01:00:37,968
And John goes off
and marries Samantha.

1377
01:00:38,068 --> 01:00:41,205
My brother, for example, has
been divorced four times, right?

1378
01:00:41,305 --> 01:00:44,108
Does that mean that he's failed
to love all his previous wives?

1379
01:00:44,208 --> 01:00:46,844
No.
So we already accept the fact

1380
01:00:46,944 --> 01:00:48,078
that it's quite possible

1381
01:00:48,178 --> 01:00:50,614
to love more than one
human being at a time.

1382
01:00:50,715 --> 01:00:51,916
Anybody who tells you otherwise

1383
01:00:52,016 --> 01:00:54,919
probably shouldn't have
more than just one child.

1384
01:00:55,019 --> 01:00:58,455
-With kids, you open your heart
in a way where you understand

1385
01:00:58,555 --> 01:01:01,158
that you can love
multiple people fully

1386
01:01:01,258 --> 01:01:02,927
and at the same time.

1387
01:01:03,027 --> 01:01:06,964
**

1388
01:01:08,398 --> 01:01:11,836
-I personally am a polyamorous
woman and a queer woman.

1389
01:01:11,936 --> 01:01:14,571
I've had a long-term
male partner whom I live with

1390
01:01:14,671 --> 01:01:15,906
and a long-term female partner.

1391
01:01:16,006 --> 01:01:18,475
I've never been unfaithful,
and I don't want to be.

1392
01:01:18,575 --> 01:01:21,445
And so I've sought out
a relationship

1393
01:01:21,545 --> 01:01:25,449
in which we can both have
the freedom, with full honesty

1394
01:01:25,549 --> 01:01:26,283
and checking in with each other,

1395
01:01:26,383 --> 01:01:27,952
to have relationships
with other people.

1396
01:01:28,052 --> 01:01:29,920
-My wife's French.
-Mm-hmm.

1397
01:01:30,020 --> 01:01:33,457
-You edit this carefully.
We were married in 1976.

1398
01:01:33,557 --> 01:01:35,692
We have a lot
of similar interests

1399
01:01:35,793 --> 01:01:38,863
and, more importantly,
points of view on the world.

1400
01:01:38,963 --> 01:01:39,964
We're best friends.

1401
01:01:40,064 --> 01:01:41,565
For sure, we're soul mates.

1402
01:01:41,665 --> 01:01:43,700
I'm polyamorous.

1403
01:01:43,801 --> 01:01:45,635
-I knew that
conventional marriage

1404
01:01:45,736 --> 01:01:46,837
didn't feel right for me,

1405
01:01:46,937 --> 01:01:48,939
and so I've decided
that I want to be out

1406
01:01:49,039 --> 01:01:52,176
in order to give other people
an image of possibility.

1407
01:01:52,276 --> 01:01:54,979
-For me, polyamory,
or being polyamorous,

1408
01:01:55,079 --> 01:02:01,651
means that I can be in love --
in love --

1409
01:02:01,752 --> 01:02:04,621
with more than one person
at the same time.

1410
01:02:04,721 --> 01:02:06,757
-I found it
incredibly attractive

1411
01:02:06,857 --> 01:02:10,094
that he was so brave
and willing to let me do that.

1412
01:02:10,194 --> 01:02:11,796
And all our friends were like,
"You guys are nuts.

1413
01:02:11,896 --> 01:02:13,230
This is gonna ruin
your relationship.

1414
01:02:13,330 --> 01:02:15,099
You're gonna completely,

1415
01:02:15,199 --> 01:02:16,200
you know, drift away
from each other."

1416
01:02:16,300 --> 01:02:18,702
And we found the opposite
to be true.

1417
01:02:18,803 --> 01:02:22,306
We found that, because
we kind of went into it

1418
01:02:22,406 --> 01:02:25,675
with pretty radical honesty,

1419
01:02:25,776 --> 01:02:27,344
we had so much more faith
in each other,

1420
01:02:27,444 --> 01:02:29,313
and it rebonded us...

1421
01:02:29,413 --> 01:02:31,048
-Hmm.
-...and made us

1422
01:02:31,148 --> 01:02:32,549
more attracted to each other.

1423
01:02:32,649 --> 01:02:33,683
It's hot.

1424
01:02:33,784 --> 01:02:35,719
-It was me
and my first girlfriend.

1425
01:02:35,820 --> 01:02:37,654
So, one of the things
we started talking about,

1426
01:02:37,754 --> 01:02:39,089
"You're attracted
to this person.

1427
01:02:39,189 --> 01:02:40,390
Why shouldn't we
make out with them?

1428
01:02:40,490 --> 01:02:42,159
I mean, what will that do?
You and I are secure.

1429
01:02:42,259 --> 01:02:44,561
We know we're not gonna
leave each other.

1430
01:02:44,661 --> 01:02:47,932
It was amazing to have
that experience of a new person

1431
01:02:48,032 --> 01:02:49,166
but also have the comfort of,

1432
01:02:49,266 --> 01:02:52,502
"This is -- I have this
long-term relationship."

1433
01:02:54,872 --> 01:02:55,973
-Most relationships,

1434
01:02:56,073 --> 01:02:58,108
there's a place
where each individual says,

1435
01:02:58,208 --> 01:03:00,044
"Hey, I need to go.
I need my time.

1436
01:03:00,144 --> 01:03:01,778
I need my time to grow,

1437
01:03:01,879 --> 01:03:03,948
and then I can come back
and give more."

1438
01:03:04,048 --> 01:03:07,985
This feels like an iteration,
or a version, of that.

1439
01:03:08,085 --> 01:03:10,454
-The point is
to have more love in your life

1440
01:03:10,554 --> 01:03:11,721
and to have deeper connections.

1441
01:03:11,822 --> 01:03:13,858
-No matter what happens
or where we go

1442
01:03:13,958 --> 01:03:15,059
or whatever direction,

1443
01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:17,061
we always seem to come back
to each other

1444
01:03:17,161 --> 01:03:22,166
and reconnect
and share our experiences.

1445
01:03:23,167 --> 01:03:25,202
-If, all of a sudden,
polyamory was widely accepted,

1446
01:03:25,302 --> 01:03:29,739
what would that do for the way
we think of property at large?

1447
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:31,942
What would that do
for the way we think of

1448
01:03:32,042 --> 01:03:35,112
who we have duties to

1449
01:03:35,212 --> 01:03:36,580
and who we're responsible to?

1450
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,649
Instead of two fundamentally
different experiences --

1451
01:03:39,749 --> 01:03:41,085
the one I have with my partner

1452
01:03:41,185 --> 01:03:43,353
and then the way I feel
about strangers in the street --

1453
01:03:43,453 --> 01:03:45,856
they start to blend
and bleed together more.

1454
01:03:45,956 --> 01:03:50,594
You don't put all of your
compassion and passion

1455
01:03:50,694 --> 01:03:52,629
and generosity into one person.

1456
01:03:52,729 --> 01:03:54,731
-I mean, I also think
it definitely --

1457
01:03:54,831 --> 01:03:56,566
It takes
a certain personality type.

1458
01:03:56,666 --> 01:03:58,435
This is not for everybody.

1459
01:03:59,937 --> 01:04:01,005
-As part of our research,

1460
01:04:01,105 --> 01:04:03,640
we went to a free-love commune
in Portugal.

1461
01:04:03,740 --> 01:04:06,010
I can see by you
rolling your eyes and --

1462
01:04:06,110 --> 01:04:08,145
-Love ain't free.
Sex isn't free.

1463
01:04:08,245 --> 01:04:09,313
-Do you think --
-There's costs.

1464
01:04:09,413 --> 01:04:10,314
There's consequences.

1465
01:04:10,414 --> 01:04:12,749
There's other people's lives
in the balance.

1466
01:04:12,849 --> 01:04:13,850
-Well, their attitude was, like,

1467
01:04:13,951 --> 01:04:15,886
"We can provide stability
as a group

1468
01:04:15,986 --> 01:04:16,954
and as a community
for the kids,

1469
01:04:17,054 --> 01:04:19,123
which is more than
this kind of rupture

1470
01:04:19,223 --> 01:04:20,490
that happens
when the divorce happens."

1471
01:04:20,590 --> 01:04:22,792
-I agree with that.
You know, it takes a village.

1472
01:04:22,893 --> 01:04:23,827
I agree with Hillary.

1473
01:04:23,928 --> 01:04:24,995
The nuclear family isolated,

1474
01:04:25,095 --> 01:04:27,731
by itself in a ranch house
in the suburbs,

1475
01:04:27,831 --> 01:04:29,099
without elders around,

1476
01:04:29,199 --> 01:04:30,935
without other community members
involved or intimate

1477
01:04:31,035 --> 01:04:33,070
in the lives of the children,
that is an aberration.

1478
01:04:33,170 --> 01:04:36,273
-We are here
in the most remarkable project,

1479
01:04:37,107 --> 01:04:41,711
called the Peace Research Center
of Tamera.

1480
01:04:41,811 --> 01:04:43,180
-This is the place,
the edge place,

1481
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,849
of actually finding
the ways of the heart,

1482
01:04:45,950 --> 01:04:48,585
the ways of connection
between human beings.

1483
01:04:48,685 --> 01:04:53,657
It's really about finding ways
to reopen our hardened hearts.

1484
01:04:54,258 --> 01:04:55,759
-You were saying last night
that some of the other women

1485
01:04:55,859 --> 01:04:57,127
were offering
their partners to you?

1486
01:04:57,227 --> 01:04:59,896
-Yes.
-What was that like?

1487
01:04:59,997 --> 01:05:01,898
-My eyes nearly fell
out my head...

1488
01:05:01,999 --> 01:05:03,200
[ Chuckles ]

1489
01:05:03,300 --> 01:05:05,102
...because
it's so countercultural.

1490
01:05:05,202 --> 01:05:06,670
-How did they do it?
What did they say?

1491
01:05:06,770 --> 01:05:08,005
-I was talking about
a real terror

1492
01:05:08,105 --> 01:05:09,173
of being back in relationship

1493
01:05:09,273 --> 01:05:11,775
after being single
and celibate for a while.

1494
01:05:11,875 --> 01:05:13,077
And one of the women said,

1495
01:05:13,177 --> 01:05:17,714
"You know, my lover is
so gorgeous and so tender,

1496
01:05:17,814 --> 01:05:20,050
and if it would really
help you, go.

1497
01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:21,518
You have my blessing.

1498
01:05:21,618 --> 01:05:23,787
If he can help you
in your healing process,

1499
01:05:23,887 --> 01:05:24,854
I would love that."

1500
01:05:24,955 --> 01:05:28,758
-Women want to express
their sexual nature

1501
01:05:28,858 --> 01:05:30,694
as much as men do,

1502
01:05:31,228 --> 01:05:33,597
particularly if they are
allowed to bloom

1503
01:05:33,697 --> 01:05:38,702
and if the whole sort of overlay
of patriarchal stickers --

1504
01:05:39,436 --> 01:05:44,074
you know, "slut" and so forth
if you show your desires --

1505
01:05:45,109 --> 01:05:49,013
and you are allowed
to really express your wish

1506
01:05:49,113 --> 01:05:53,683
for sexuality, intimacy,
love, and so forth,

1507
01:05:53,783 --> 01:05:55,519
then you start to bloom.

1508
01:05:56,553 --> 01:06:00,991
Most women never bloom
in our society.

1509
01:06:01,091 --> 01:06:04,461
-It takes so much work
and so much processing,

1510
01:06:04,561 --> 01:06:06,563
and every time someone new
comes into your life,

1511
01:06:06,663 --> 01:06:09,166
you have to navigate

1512
01:06:09,266 --> 01:06:13,303
all the personalities
and issues that come up.

1513
01:06:13,403 --> 01:06:14,371
-Is it harder to be left
by two women

1514
01:06:14,471 --> 01:06:17,007
than to be left by one?
-Oh, totally.

1515
01:06:17,107 --> 01:06:19,576
I had totally committed love

1516
01:06:19,676 --> 01:06:23,480
and, you know, beautiful
erotic relationships

1517
01:06:23,580 --> 01:06:25,215
with two amazing people.

1518
01:06:25,315 --> 01:06:27,351
Then, when it went wrong,
I had double the heartbreak.

1519
01:06:27,451 --> 01:06:30,120
And for some reason,
I never imagined that.

1520
01:06:30,220 --> 01:06:31,788
I always thought, "You know,
that's one cool thing

1521
01:06:31,888 --> 01:06:34,191
about this setup,
is if someone left me,

1522
01:06:34,291 --> 01:06:35,492
there would be
another person there

1523
01:06:35,592 --> 01:06:36,793
and that would ease
my heartbreak a little bit."

1524
01:06:36,893 --> 01:06:40,264
I never imagined that they would
both leave at the same time.

1525
01:06:40,364 --> 01:06:42,199
And they're still together.

1526
01:06:42,299 --> 01:06:45,102
-The sociologist,
100 years ago, Georg Simmel,

1527
01:06:45,202 --> 01:06:47,371
pointed out that there's
these inherent differences

1528
01:06:47,471 --> 01:06:49,939
between a group of two
and a group of three or more.

1529
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,209
In a group of two,
you can't have secrets,

1530
01:06:52,309 --> 01:06:53,777
because if we come out
in the morning

1531
01:06:53,877 --> 01:06:55,079
and the milk is spilled
and there's only two of us,

1532
01:06:55,179 --> 01:06:57,681
we both know who did it.

1533
01:06:57,781 --> 01:07:00,217
Either you did it or I did it,
and I know, if I didn't do it,

1534
01:07:00,317 --> 01:07:03,353
that you did it
or I know that I did it.

1535
01:07:03,453 --> 01:07:07,057
In a group of three,
you can never know.

1536
01:07:07,157 --> 01:07:08,292
You can know that
you didn't do it,

1537
01:07:08,392 --> 01:07:10,660
but you can't know
who of the other two did it.

1538
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:12,829
With a group of three or more,
you get politics.

1539
01:07:12,929 --> 01:07:16,066
You can get two ganging up
against one.

1540
01:07:16,166 --> 01:07:18,468
You can get one who tries
to divide and conquer

1541
01:07:18,568 --> 01:07:20,370
the other two.

1542
01:07:20,470 --> 01:07:22,539
-My little brother
is polyamorous,

1543
01:07:22,639 --> 01:07:25,909
and he's trying really,
really hard to make it work

1544
01:07:26,009 --> 01:07:28,778
because he believes in it.

1545
01:07:28,878 --> 01:07:31,648
But I've noticed that all it's
ever really brought him is pain.

1546
01:07:31,748 --> 01:07:32,749
It's like communism.

1547
01:07:32,849 --> 01:07:35,719
It's a great idea,
but good luck making it work.

1548
01:07:35,819 --> 01:07:39,789
**

1549
01:07:40,790 --> 01:07:43,427
-I think this is a real, major,

1550
01:07:43,527 --> 01:07:47,164
and probably unresolvable
conflict in people's minds.

1551
01:07:47,264 --> 01:07:50,200
I believe that human beings
have the capacity

1552
01:07:50,300 --> 01:07:53,203
for monogamy or polygamy.

1553
01:07:53,303 --> 01:07:56,706
I think that we have impulses
in both directions

1554
01:07:56,806 --> 01:07:58,408
and that we'll do a lot better

1555
01:07:58,508 --> 01:08:01,578
if we recognize
that we have both impulses

1556
01:08:01,678 --> 01:08:04,181
and that we're going to be
conflicted about it

1557
01:08:04,281 --> 01:08:06,583
and that we need
to talk about it honestly

1558
01:08:06,683 --> 01:08:09,119
and that not everybody
is going to resolve the problem

1559
01:08:09,219 --> 01:08:10,320
in the same way.

1560
01:08:10,420 --> 01:08:13,390
I don't think there's
one right answer to this.

1561
01:08:13,490 --> 01:08:16,193
Some couples are going to find

1562
01:08:16,293 --> 01:08:18,295
that monogamy is so important
to them as a value

1563
01:08:18,395 --> 01:08:20,464
that they're going
to have to work hard

1564
01:08:20,564 --> 01:08:24,468
on ways to wall off
their sexual relationship

1565
01:08:24,568 --> 01:08:27,036
from the sexual temptations
around them.

1566
01:08:27,137 --> 01:08:28,272
-Monogamy and marriage
have been thought of

1567
01:08:28,372 --> 01:08:29,873
in lots of different ways,

1568
01:08:29,973 --> 01:08:31,475
and it hasn't always
involved love.

1569
01:08:31,575 --> 01:08:35,179
And it hasn't always involved
the set of obligations

1570
01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:37,481
in relationships
that it does right now.

1571
01:08:37,581 --> 01:08:41,017
But we also have to remember
that it's an ideal,

1572
01:08:41,117 --> 01:08:44,288
and ideals are often
very hard to achieve.

1573
01:08:45,088 --> 01:08:47,891
-We can do better than this.

1574
01:08:47,991 --> 01:08:49,159
But here I am.

1575
01:08:49,259 --> 01:08:51,161
You know, I'm 64 years old,

1576
01:08:51,261 --> 01:08:53,062
having spent a long life

1577
01:08:53,163 --> 01:08:54,764
trying to figure out
better ways to do it,

1578
01:08:54,864 --> 01:08:58,101
and I'm still, you know...

1579
01:08:58,202 --> 01:09:02,038
I can't say I know a great deal
more than I did when I was 18.

1580
01:09:02,138 --> 01:09:03,473
[ Chuckles ]

1581
01:09:04,341 --> 01:09:08,278
-Having grown so much
out from the experience,

1582
01:09:08,378 --> 01:09:12,249
I ask myself, like, "Maybe
it was for the best, right?"

1583
01:09:12,349 --> 01:09:14,083
Do you ever tell people,
like, "That's it.

1584
01:09:14,184 --> 01:09:15,785
Maybe you should split up now."

1585
01:09:15,885 --> 01:09:17,621
-I won't tell people,
"No, you know what?

1586
01:09:17,721 --> 01:09:19,223
You just need
to throw in the towel."

1587
01:09:19,323 --> 01:09:20,924
I'm still a firm believer
in monogamy.

1588
01:09:21,024 --> 01:09:24,694
The notion of monogamy
is no longer this archaic idea

1589
01:09:24,794 --> 01:09:28,365
where it has to mean kind of
sexual deprivation and monotony.

1590
01:09:28,465 --> 01:09:33,370
I think it can be a very vibrant
kind of institution or construct

1591
01:09:34,504 --> 01:09:37,641
that provides some stability
for people to grow.

1592
01:09:38,342 --> 01:09:41,678
-We have reached, I think,
a world-historic paradox,

1593
01:09:41,778 --> 01:09:46,049
that we expect more
of the marriage relationship

1594
01:09:46,149 --> 01:09:47,717
than ever before in history,

1595
01:09:47,817 --> 01:09:50,454
but we no longer think
that marriage

1596
01:09:50,554 --> 01:09:54,824
is such a vital institution
that everybody has to enter it.

1597
01:09:54,924 --> 01:09:56,960
So, when a marriage works today,

1598
01:09:57,060 --> 01:10:01,465
I think that it's arguably
more fulfilling sexually,

1599
01:10:01,565 --> 01:10:06,403
emotionally, more fair --
definitely more fair --

1600
01:10:06,503 --> 01:10:09,339
more passionate
than ever before in history.

1601
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:12,709
But there are also
more alternatives to marriage.

1602
01:10:12,809 --> 01:10:16,012
And when a marriage doesn't
live up to those ideals,

1603
01:10:16,112 --> 01:10:18,548
it seems less bearable
to people.

1604
01:10:18,648 --> 01:10:20,216
-And if people think
getting married

1605
01:10:20,317 --> 01:10:22,319
is the only way
they can fall in love

1606
01:10:22,419 --> 01:10:25,455
and have relationships,
that's a sad prospect,

1607
01:10:25,555 --> 01:10:28,758
because then, what they get told

1608
01:10:28,858 --> 01:10:30,694
when the relationship
comes to an end

1609
01:10:30,794 --> 01:10:32,762
is that they made
a terrible mistake

1610
01:10:32,862 --> 01:10:34,163
and they must have been
terribly stupid.

1611
01:10:34,264 --> 01:10:35,999
Right?

1612
01:10:36,099 --> 01:10:36,966
How could they
have been so dumb?

1613
01:10:37,066 --> 01:10:38,735
This wasn't the real one.

1614
01:10:38,835 --> 01:10:40,870
This wasn't true love.

1615
01:10:40,970 --> 01:10:42,772
This wasn't the one-and-only.

1616
01:10:42,872 --> 01:10:45,309
Well, we'll have to try
for the next one-and-only.

1617
01:10:46,410 --> 01:10:49,813
-We wish that everybody
had the ideal marriage,

1618
01:10:49,913 --> 01:10:53,883
and we hope that it could be an
absolutely pervasive phenomenon,

1619
01:10:53,983 --> 01:10:56,686
but it might be beyond
the capacity of many people

1620
01:10:56,786 --> 01:10:58,322
to achieve that.

1621
01:10:58,422 --> 01:11:01,291
That doesn't undermine it
as an ideal.

1622
01:11:01,391 --> 01:11:04,461
-If your spiritual,
ethical value in life

1623
01:11:04,561 --> 01:11:07,697
is located in
your monogamous marriage,

1624
01:11:07,797 --> 01:11:09,333
then good for you.

1625
01:11:09,433 --> 01:11:11,601
My parents have been married
52 years.

1626
01:11:11,701 --> 01:11:14,371
And, as far as I know,
they've been pretty damn happy

1627
01:11:14,471 --> 01:11:17,341
every one of those years --
and monogamous.

1628
01:11:17,441 --> 01:11:18,742
And Mom and Dad,
if you see this,

1629
01:11:18,842 --> 01:11:21,611
I don't want to hear about it
if you weren't, you know?

1630
01:11:21,711 --> 01:11:24,481
-So, we've been married
over 50 years.

1631
01:11:24,581 --> 01:11:27,617
-When I saw her,
she just seemed to be the ideal.

1632
01:11:27,717 --> 01:11:29,619
I learned later,
she wasn't, but...

1633
01:11:29,719 --> 01:11:32,255
[ Both laugh ]

1634
01:11:32,356 --> 01:11:37,026
**

1635
01:11:38,695 --> 01:11:41,365
-I am his --
like, no one else's.

1636
01:11:41,465 --> 01:11:43,400
I'm not embarrassed by it
at all.

1637
01:11:43,500 --> 01:11:45,134
He's mine, also.

1638
01:11:46,069 --> 01:11:49,673
-We've grown so much together
over so many years.

1639
01:11:49,773 --> 01:11:54,611
-I just cannot imagine
being with anyone else.

1640
01:11:56,346 --> 01:11:58,348
-Is monogamy and marriage

1641
01:11:58,448 --> 01:11:59,483
something that
you would recommend,

1642
01:11:59,583 --> 01:12:02,519
that people should
try and preserve?

1643
01:12:02,619 --> 01:12:05,655
-I would say
love should be preserved.

1644
01:12:06,856 --> 01:12:10,226
Whether that means
getting married,

1645
01:12:10,326 --> 01:12:13,497
I never knew that
we had a choice.

1646
01:12:13,597 --> 01:12:14,398
-I can't imagine any other...
-I mean, yeah.

1647
01:12:14,498 --> 01:12:17,501
What would life be like
without her?

1648
01:12:17,601 --> 01:12:19,536
I mean, it would be meaningless.

1649
01:12:19,636 --> 01:12:21,270
My whole life has been
with this woman,

1650
01:12:21,371 --> 01:12:23,172
and it's been great.

1651
01:12:23,740 --> 01:12:26,042
So I don't have any regrets.

1652
01:12:26,142 --> 01:12:30,313
**

1653
01:12:30,414 --> 01:12:34,518
-"Dear Dan, it's been four years
since my divorce.

1654
01:12:34,618 --> 01:12:36,553
I've learned so much during
the making of this film,

1655
01:12:36,653 --> 01:12:39,155
thanks, in part, to you

1656
01:12:39,255 --> 01:12:41,124
and all the other people
I talked to.

1657
01:12:42,726 --> 01:12:44,561
Of course,
there aren't any easy answers

1658
01:12:44,661 --> 01:12:45,795
to these questions
I've been asking,

1659
01:12:45,895 --> 01:12:46,763
are there?

1660
01:12:48,097 --> 01:12:51,401
On the contrary,
it seems that the deeper I dig,

1661
01:12:51,501 --> 01:12:53,403
the more complicated
it all gets.

1662
01:12:55,238 --> 01:12:57,006
One thing is certain, though --

1663
01:12:57,106 --> 01:13:00,343
Love is universal,
but it's a delicate process.

1664
01:13:00,444 --> 01:13:02,378
It requires constant nurturing

1665
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:06,015
through communication
and honesty.

1666
01:13:06,115 --> 01:13:07,851
My hope is that we've helped
people have conversations

1667
01:13:07,951 --> 01:13:10,053
that they might not
otherwise have had

1668
01:13:10,153 --> 01:13:11,921
and maybe think, without shame,

1669
01:13:12,021 --> 01:13:15,725
about the relationship model
that could work best for them.

1670
01:13:15,825 --> 01:13:16,893
The other conclusion
I've come to

1671
01:13:16,993 --> 01:13:20,396
is that change is constant --
in ourselves,

1672
01:13:20,497 --> 01:13:24,133
in our relationships,
and in the culture at large.

1673
01:13:24,233 --> 01:13:25,569
I started with an ending,

1674
01:13:25,669 --> 01:13:28,472
so now it seems appropriate
to end with a beginning --

1675
01:13:28,572 --> 01:13:32,809
an uncertain one, a risky one,
an exciting one,

1676
01:13:32,909 --> 01:13:34,310
and one that would have been
impossible

1677
01:13:34,410 --> 01:13:36,580
without having gone
on this journey with you.

1678
01:13:37,380 --> 01:13:41,217
Will it work?
Who knows?

1679
01:13:41,317 --> 01:13:43,286
What counts as working, anyway?

1680
01:13:43,386 --> 01:13:45,421
That seems to change
all the time, too.

1681
01:13:46,623 --> 01:13:49,258
I'll let you know
the next time we talk.

1682
01:13:49,358 --> 01:13:51,127
Thanks again.

1683
01:13:51,227 --> 01:13:53,362
Yours, Tao."

1684
01:13:53,463 --> 01:13:56,566
**

1685
01:14:06,442 --> 01:14:09,513
**

1686
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,730
**