1 00:00:33,241 --> 00:00:36,828 -(eerie music playing) -(quiet street noise) 2 00:00:38,788 --> 00:00:41,750 (distant dog barking) 3 00:00:41,833 --> 00:00:45,670 -(beep) -voicemail (on phone): Saturday, 6:15 p.m. 4 00:00:46,463 --> 00:00:50,091 -(beep) -Sandra (on voicemail): 5 00:01:06,107 --> 00:01:07,734 -(hangs up) -(beep) 6 00:01:07,817 --> 00:01:09,319 ♪♪ 7 00:01:09,361 --> 00:01:12,697 Robin Karr-Morse: I remember it was Christmas time. 8 00:01:13,698 --> 00:01:16,326 Susan was very agitated. 9 00:01:17,994 --> 00:01:21,914 She kept talking about the fact that 10 00:01:22,457 --> 00:01:26,419 she needed money. She was fairly desperate. 11 00:01:27,545 --> 00:01:30,131 And that she was really scraping 12 00:01:30,215 --> 00:01:32,717 the bottom of the barrel. 13 00:01:32,759 --> 00:01:36,513 At which point, I told her I'd send her some money. 14 00:01:37,639 --> 00:01:40,350 -(beep) -Sareb Kaufman (on voicemail): 15 00:01:50,902 --> 00:01:52,320 -(hangs up) -(beep) 16 00:01:52,404 --> 00:01:56,324 And she kept on talking about... 17 00:01:57,616 --> 00:02:00,453 the fact that someone was coming 18 00:02:01,996 --> 00:02:05,625 and that she was nervous about it. 19 00:02:07,043 --> 00:02:09,420 And she was 20 00:02:09,461 --> 00:02:12,173 going to blow the situation wide open. 21 00:02:12,257 --> 00:02:13,591 That's what she said. 22 00:02:13,675 --> 00:02:15,593 -(phone static) -(beep) 23 00:02:15,844 --> 00:02:18,304 Jeff (on voicemail): 24 00:02:28,273 --> 00:02:31,026 -(beep) -Karr-Morse: I finally said, 25 00:02:31,067 --> 00:02:34,946 "Susie, what in the hell are you talking about?" 26 00:02:35,030 --> 00:02:37,115 ♪♪ 27 00:02:37,198 --> 00:02:40,618 And she said, "I would tell you, Robbie, 28 00:02:40,702 --> 00:02:43,788 but your life would be in danger." 29 00:02:45,457 --> 00:02:49,085 I feel really badly that I didn't get her 30 00:02:49,168 --> 00:02:52,964 to tell me what she was gonna "blow wide open." 31 00:02:56,134 --> 00:02:58,595 (sighs) 32 00:02:59,554 --> 00:03:03,767 Because that was the last conversation I had with Susie. 33 00:03:05,518 --> 00:03:09,564 -(beep) -Karr-Morse (on voicemail): 34 00:03:12,984 --> 00:03:14,736 (busy signal beeping) 35 00:03:16,696 --> 00:03:19,741 -(hangs up) -(answering machine clicking, beeps) 36 00:03:19,824 --> 00:03:23,036 ("Survivor" by Nathaniel Rateliff & The Night Sweats playing) 37 00:03:23,745 --> 00:03:25,997 ♪ Well, you just think that I'm ♪ 38 00:03:28,500 --> 00:03:30,543 ♪ Some great survivor ♪ 39 00:03:32,545 --> 00:03:33,505 (static) 40 00:03:33,588 --> 00:03:35,465 ♪ And you just build upon ♪ 41 00:03:38,218 --> 00:03:40,804 ♪ The light to carry you ♪ 42 00:03:40,845 --> 00:03:43,640 (shutter snapping) 43 00:03:43,682 --> 00:03:46,142 ♪ Well, I don't even talk that way ♪ 44 00:03:46,184 --> 00:03:48,311 ♪ See, I wanted you to stay ♪ 45 00:03:48,353 --> 00:03:50,647 ♪ And show you the world's a better place ♪ 46 00:03:50,689 --> 00:03:51,940 (scuttling) 47 00:03:53,358 --> 00:03:55,360 ♪ And as we crawl to find our way ♪ 48 00:03:55,402 --> 00:03:59,364 ♪ We even take the shape of something else ♪ 49 00:04:01,741 --> 00:04:02,450 (shutter snaps) 50 00:04:02,867 --> 00:04:05,412 -♪ You think that I'm just ♪ -(gunshot) 51 00:04:07,580 --> 00:04:10,375 ♪ Some great survivor ♪ 52 00:04:12,544 --> 00:04:15,714 ♪ You think that I'm just ♪ 53 00:04:15,797 --> 00:04:17,382 (shutters snapping) 54 00:04:17,423 --> 00:04:19,926 ♪ Some great survivor ♪ 55 00:04:22,971 --> 00:04:26,641 ♪ I'm afraid that the weight of the world ♪ 56 00:04:26,725 --> 00:04:29,310 ♪ Is catching up with you ♪ 57 00:04:29,728 --> 00:04:32,772 ♪♪ 58 00:04:33,773 --> 00:04:35,525 (scuttling) 59 00:04:37,402 --> 00:04:39,487 (wind blowing) 60 00:04:48,038 --> 00:04:50,957 (light music playing) 61 00:05:01,259 --> 00:05:05,472 (pulls up chair) 62 00:05:08,266 --> 00:05:11,394 -(on phone) Hi. -(on phone) Hi. 63 00:05:11,436 --> 00:05:13,313 Robert Durst: How are you? 64 00:05:13,396 --> 00:05:15,648 I'm alright. How are you? 65 00:05:16,441 --> 00:05:18,401 (curious music playing) 66 00:05:18,443 --> 00:05:20,945 newscaster 1: The case against Robert Durst. 67 00:05:21,029 --> 00:05:23,073 newscaster 2: After months of preliminary hearings, 68 00:05:23,156 --> 00:05:25,825 the actual trial is finally starting. 69 00:05:25,909 --> 00:05:27,202 (lights click, buzz) 70 00:05:27,285 --> 00:05:30,080 newscaster 3: That's right, California versus Robert Durst. 71 00:05:33,625 --> 00:05:35,710 (Durst speaking on phone) 72 00:05:35,794 --> 00:05:37,504 (Debrah Lee Charatan speaking on phone) 73 00:05:41,841 --> 00:05:44,219 newscaster: Media coverage expected to be so intense 74 00:05:44,302 --> 00:05:46,971 there may not be enough seats for reporters in the courtroom. 75 00:05:52,519 --> 00:05:54,229 -(screaming) -(audience laughing) 76 00:05:54,312 --> 00:05:55,814 Andy Richter: Oh, my God! Get him out! 77 00:05:55,897 --> 00:05:58,316 Alright, take a seat. What's your name, bud? 78 00:05:58,358 --> 00:06:01,486 -My name is Robert Durst. -(audience laughter) 79 00:06:01,569 --> 00:06:03,571 (Charatan speaking) 80 00:06:06,825 --> 00:06:09,369 (Durst speaking) 81 00:06:09,661 --> 00:06:13,498 Alex Trebek: This HBO docuseries helped bring down Robert Durst. 82 00:06:13,540 --> 00:06:15,834 -Alex? That's it. -What's "The Jinx"? 83 00:06:17,002 --> 00:06:18,753 (Durst speaking) 84 00:06:25,510 --> 00:06:27,512 -Did you see "The Jinx"? -(laughter) 85 00:06:27,554 --> 00:06:29,514 This guy killed three people, 86 00:06:29,556 --> 00:06:32,517 and yet you'll watch it, and you'll go, "I like this guy. 87 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,437 -(laughter) -Why do I like this guy?" 88 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,355 (birds chirping) 89 00:06:37,439 --> 00:06:39,858 John Lewin: I found Bob very entertaining. 90 00:06:39,899 --> 00:06:43,570 I'd be lying if I said I didn't find Bob funny. 91 00:06:44,529 --> 00:06:45,822 Just 'cause you're a murderer 92 00:06:45,864 --> 00:06:47,991 doesn't mean you can't be charming. 93 00:06:49,367 --> 00:06:51,494 I made sure that our case 94 00:06:51,536 --> 00:06:53,997 was not gonna live or die 95 00:06:54,039 --> 00:06:57,792 on whether some people found Bob appealing. 96 00:06:57,876 --> 00:07:00,170 I have hundreds of pieces of evidence 97 00:07:00,211 --> 00:07:03,048 to prove he's a killer. 98 00:07:03,131 --> 00:07:04,799 (Wild West music playing) 99 00:07:04,883 --> 00:07:07,344 Savannah Guthrie: Defense attorney Dick DeGuerin joins us now. 100 00:07:07,385 --> 00:07:09,054 Good morning to you, sir. 101 00:07:09,095 --> 00:07:11,222 Dick DeGuerin: The prosecutors jumped the gun 102 00:07:11,306 --> 00:07:13,141 because of "The Jinx." 103 00:07:13,224 --> 00:07:14,351 You know, it's all in the editing. 104 00:07:14,392 --> 00:07:17,562 The editing was designed for good television, 105 00:07:17,604 --> 00:07:20,565 but it wasn't designed to get to the truth. 106 00:07:25,153 --> 00:07:26,321 As a defense lawyer, 107 00:07:26,404 --> 00:07:28,281 you need to know the case 108 00:07:28,365 --> 00:07:30,325 better than the prosecution. 109 00:07:30,408 --> 00:07:31,409 (door creaks) 110 00:07:31,451 --> 00:07:33,703 And the case is weak. 111 00:07:36,373 --> 00:07:39,084 Remember, these are the same lawyers 112 00:07:39,167 --> 00:07:41,252 that got him off in Texas. 113 00:07:41,294 --> 00:07:43,505 (creaking) 114 00:07:43,546 --> 00:07:46,883 And I knew the defense team had done some polling 115 00:07:47,676 --> 00:07:49,761 and discovered that 116 00:07:49,803 --> 00:07:54,015 there was a lot of sympathy for Bob's frailty. 117 00:07:56,935 --> 00:07:58,311 Personally, I thought there was 118 00:07:58,395 --> 00:08:01,106 a little theatricality at work here. 119 00:08:01,731 --> 00:08:05,735 I look better when I've grown a couple of months of hair. 120 00:08:06,277 --> 00:08:09,781 But I'm thinking maybe the jury will like me better 121 00:08:09,823 --> 00:08:12,409 with my shunt standing right out there. 122 00:08:12,450 --> 00:08:14,953 (judge speaking) 123 00:08:17,914 --> 00:08:18,957 (door creaks) 124 00:08:21,334 --> 00:08:23,753 (Durst speaking) 125 00:08:28,508 --> 00:08:31,511 -(Wild West music playing) -(wheelchair rattling) 126 00:08:37,808 --> 00:08:39,059 Michael Belcher: Bob is wheeled out, 127 00:08:39,144 --> 00:08:41,312 and I think he had shaved his head 128 00:08:41,395 --> 00:08:43,982 -to make the stent, you know-- -David Belcher: The shunt. 129 00:08:44,065 --> 00:08:46,568 -Shunt, sorry. The shunt-- -Stent goes in your heart. 130 00:08:46,651 --> 00:08:48,319 -Okay, so-- -Shunt goes in your head. 131 00:08:48,361 --> 00:08:50,030 (both laugh) 132 00:08:50,113 --> 00:08:51,531 ♪♪ 133 00:08:51,614 --> 00:08:55,243 Carlos Leal: My initial impression of Bob was this weak old man. 134 00:08:56,494 --> 00:08:58,747 Think he was in his wheelchair, 135 00:08:58,830 --> 00:09:00,790 and, you know, they were telling us 136 00:09:00,832 --> 00:09:03,084 how he has all these ailments. 137 00:09:03,168 --> 00:09:07,339 He was, um, a lot smaller than I expected. 138 00:09:07,422 --> 00:09:11,301 A lot older, too. Like, frail-looking. 139 00:09:11,343 --> 00:09:13,053 In his wheelchair, 140 00:09:13,136 --> 00:09:15,722 uh, with his catheter bag. 141 00:09:15,805 --> 00:09:17,265 For one thing, I kind of questioned 142 00:09:17,349 --> 00:09:20,060 whether he even was aware of what was going on. 143 00:09:20,143 --> 00:09:23,188 (courtroom chatter) 144 00:09:25,607 --> 00:09:26,858 (clears throat) 145 00:09:28,401 --> 00:09:30,987 Please be seated. Thank you. 146 00:09:32,072 --> 00:09:34,741 Welcome to the People versus Robert Durst. 147 00:09:34,824 --> 00:09:37,535 Mr. Durst is present. 148 00:09:37,619 --> 00:09:39,329 His lawyers are present, 149 00:09:39,371 --> 00:09:42,415 Mr. DeGuerin, Mr. Chesnoff, 150 00:09:42,499 --> 00:09:45,460 and for the People, Mr. Balian 151 00:09:45,543 --> 00:09:47,170 and Mr. Lewin. 152 00:09:50,006 --> 00:09:53,259 If there is a lot of publicity, 153 00:09:53,343 --> 00:09:56,221 if there are forces operating 154 00:09:56,262 --> 00:09:59,182 on the trial 155 00:09:59,224 --> 00:10:01,059 that are unusual, 156 00:10:01,351 --> 00:10:03,603 that presents challenges. 157 00:10:03,687 --> 00:10:06,773 But it's your obligation as a judge 158 00:10:06,856 --> 00:10:10,068 to allow the jurors to do their work. 159 00:10:12,237 --> 00:10:16,199 It's alleged on or between December 22, 2000, 160 00:10:16,241 --> 00:10:21,079 and December 23, 2000, in the county of Los Angeles, 161 00:10:21,121 --> 00:10:22,831 the crime of murder 162 00:10:22,914 --> 00:10:25,166 was committed by Robert Durst, 163 00:10:25,250 --> 00:10:27,877 who did unlawfully and with malice aforethought 164 00:10:27,919 --> 00:10:30,880 murder Susan Berman, a human being. 165 00:10:30,922 --> 00:10:34,259 It's further alleged that Susan Berman 166 00:10:34,342 --> 00:10:36,219 was a witness to a crime 167 00:10:36,261 --> 00:10:40,098 and was intentionally killed because of that fact. 168 00:10:41,850 --> 00:10:43,601 Lewin: It's impossible to understand 169 00:10:43,643 --> 00:10:45,729 anything that happened 170 00:10:45,770 --> 00:10:47,814 unless you understand where it started. 171 00:10:47,897 --> 00:10:51,443 (soft, somber music playing) 172 00:11:11,671 --> 00:11:14,758 It started with Bob and Kathie. 173 00:11:14,799 --> 00:11:17,802 You have to understand the domestic violence, 174 00:11:17,844 --> 00:11:20,305 the horrible way he treated her. 175 00:11:20,347 --> 00:11:23,141 When you understand that, you will now understand 176 00:11:23,224 --> 00:11:26,102 that Bob was responsible for her death. 177 00:11:26,186 --> 00:11:27,729 (fireplace crackling) 178 00:11:27,812 --> 00:11:29,773 And you will now understand the lies 179 00:11:29,814 --> 00:11:32,901 that Bob told about how she disappeared. 180 00:11:34,652 --> 00:11:35,945 newscaster: Robert Durst told police 181 00:11:35,987 --> 00:11:37,822 he'd driven his wife from their country house 182 00:11:37,864 --> 00:11:39,282 in South Salem, New York 183 00:11:39,366 --> 00:11:41,701 to this nearby train station, 184 00:11:41,785 --> 00:11:43,870 where she boarded the city-bound train 185 00:11:43,953 --> 00:11:45,705 headed for their Manhattan apartment 186 00:11:45,789 --> 00:11:48,165 and a busy week at medical school. 187 00:11:48,249 --> 00:11:51,753 But no one close to Kathie would see her again. 188 00:11:53,380 --> 00:11:56,091 But Mrs. Durst was heard from Monday morning. 189 00:11:56,633 --> 00:11:57,926 She was a fourth-year medical student 190 00:11:58,009 --> 00:12:00,679 at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, 191 00:12:00,762 --> 00:12:02,972 and she was to have a clinic class that morning. 192 00:12:03,014 --> 00:12:05,183 But she called up saying she wasn't feeling well, 193 00:12:05,225 --> 00:12:08,269 and she wouldn't be in that day. And as far as police know, 194 00:12:08,353 --> 00:12:11,356 that's the last time that anyone had contact with her. 195 00:12:12,357 --> 00:12:14,734 ♪♪ 196 00:12:14,818 --> 00:12:17,362 Lewin: Bob's whole story depends on this phone call 197 00:12:17,404 --> 00:12:19,280 that Kathie supposedly made to the medical school. 198 00:12:19,364 --> 00:12:21,324 bailiff: ...the whole truth and nothing but the truth, 199 00:12:21,366 --> 00:12:23,284 -so help you God? -I do. 200 00:12:23,368 --> 00:12:25,995 Lewin: That call is the reason police believe 201 00:12:26,037 --> 00:12:29,582 Kathie made it back to the city and was alive Monday morning. 202 00:12:30,291 --> 00:12:32,794 If the call didn't come from Kathie, 203 00:12:32,877 --> 00:12:35,797 then Bob's alibi falls apart. 204 00:12:37,257 --> 00:12:39,718 Habib Balian: I really felt that it was important 205 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:42,178 for our jury to hear 206 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:45,640 that when Dr. Kuperman said that Kathie called, 207 00:12:46,057 --> 00:12:47,934 he really wasn't sure. 208 00:12:48,018 --> 00:12:49,936 He just said that because it was a woman 209 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:51,938 who said it was Kathie Durst. 210 00:12:52,856 --> 00:12:55,233 I don't believe anyone questioned him in detail 211 00:12:55,275 --> 00:12:58,528 about why he thought that was Kathie on the phone. 212 00:12:58,570 --> 00:13:00,071 Those questions had never been asked. 213 00:13:00,155 --> 00:13:02,907 -(papers rustling) -Dr. Kuperman, 214 00:13:02,949 --> 00:13:06,202 tell us what you remember about this call. 215 00:13:07,662 --> 00:13:11,041 The woman stated that she was Kathie Durst 216 00:13:11,082 --> 00:13:14,461 and that she would be absent. 217 00:13:14,544 --> 00:13:16,755 And I asked her why, 218 00:13:16,796 --> 00:13:20,550 and she said she had some diarrhea. 219 00:13:21,092 --> 00:13:24,596 Perhaps a headache was in there. I'm not sure. 220 00:13:24,637 --> 00:13:26,890 And for all those reasons, 221 00:13:26,931 --> 00:13:29,267 she didn't think it was possible 222 00:13:29,309 --> 00:13:30,935 to come to that c-- 223 00:13:31,019 --> 00:13:35,398 that was the first day of that particular clerkship. 224 00:13:36,524 --> 00:13:39,194 Balian: In your 40 years as the dean of education 225 00:13:39,277 --> 00:13:40,945 of the Albert Einstein Medical School, 226 00:13:40,987 --> 00:13:43,323 other than this case involving Kathleen Durst, 227 00:13:43,406 --> 00:13:45,992 have you ever been contacted by a student 228 00:13:46,076 --> 00:13:47,869 to say that they were going to be sick 229 00:13:47,952 --> 00:13:50,497 and not show up for a clerkship? 230 00:13:50,580 --> 00:13:52,207 No. 231 00:13:53,208 --> 00:13:56,795 Kathie would not have called in sick 232 00:13:56,878 --> 00:13:58,546 to the first day of a rotation. 233 00:13:58,630 --> 00:14:01,007 It's patently absurd. 234 00:14:01,841 --> 00:14:04,636 bailiff: Do you solemnly state that the testimony you're about to give 235 00:14:04,678 --> 00:14:06,262 will be the truth, the whole truth, 236 00:14:06,304 --> 00:14:08,139 and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 237 00:14:08,223 --> 00:14:10,433 -classmate 1: I do. -bailiff: Please be seated. 238 00:14:10,475 --> 00:14:12,852 Lewin: And in your experience, how sick would a student 239 00:14:12,936 --> 00:14:15,105 have to be to call in sick to a rotation? 240 00:14:16,064 --> 00:14:18,650 classmate 1: Comatose. You would go. 241 00:14:18,692 --> 00:14:21,903 classmate 2: The culture was that you hung in there 242 00:14:21,986 --> 00:14:24,989 until you were about-- until you fell over, basically. 243 00:14:25,657 --> 00:14:29,536 You show up even if you have to drag the IV pole with you. 244 00:14:30,245 --> 00:14:34,040 Once you decide that Kathie did not make the call, 245 00:14:34,665 --> 00:14:38,086 then you're left with, "Okay, who made the call?" 246 00:14:38,837 --> 00:14:41,673 The person it would had to have come from 247 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:44,384 is Bob's best friend, Susan Berman. 248 00:14:45,510 --> 00:14:48,096 Susan made that call. 249 00:14:48,179 --> 00:14:51,099 That's our whole case. Okay, Bob killed Kathie. Yep. 250 00:14:51,182 --> 00:14:53,184 Loyal Susan helps Bob. Yep. 251 00:14:54,019 --> 00:14:57,188 Susan has this over Bob. Yep. 252 00:14:57,230 --> 00:15:01,359 And Susan carries this secret for almost 18 years. 253 00:15:01,443 --> 00:15:02,902 (echoing click) 254 00:15:02,986 --> 00:15:05,030 -(papers rustle) -Everybody still with me? 255 00:15:05,113 --> 00:15:06,948 (speakers murmur) 256 00:15:09,034 --> 00:15:11,327 In late 1999, 257 00:15:11,369 --> 00:15:13,580 New York State police detectives 258 00:15:13,663 --> 00:15:16,833 began reinvestigating Kathie's disappearance. 259 00:15:16,875 --> 00:15:18,543 ♪♪ 260 00:15:18,626 --> 00:15:20,545 Susan told Bob Durst 261 00:15:20,587 --> 00:15:23,465 that she had been contacted by investigators 262 00:15:23,548 --> 00:15:26,968 and they wanted to speak to her about Kathie. 263 00:15:27,635 --> 00:15:29,220 Despite her loyalty, 264 00:15:29,304 --> 00:15:32,098 Susan was not somebody who he apparently believed 265 00:15:32,182 --> 00:15:34,642 would keep her mouth shut to the police. 266 00:15:35,727 --> 00:15:37,228 And so, Susan, 267 00:15:37,270 --> 00:15:40,899 she is a lingering and continuing threat 268 00:15:40,982 --> 00:15:44,402 and she needs to be eliminated. 269 00:15:44,444 --> 00:15:45,695 (gunshot) 270 00:15:45,737 --> 00:15:47,280 (casing clattering) 271 00:16:05,465 --> 00:16:08,968 (Durst speaking) 272 00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:17,060 (TV news theme music playing) 273 00:16:17,102 --> 00:16:18,228 newscaster: Okay, wait a minute. 274 00:16:18,269 --> 00:16:19,771 They're gonna try to prove 275 00:16:19,854 --> 00:16:21,356 a murder in New York from 1982, 276 00:16:21,439 --> 00:16:25,443 while they're proving the case before the jury, 277 00:16:25,527 --> 00:16:27,153 a murder in California. 278 00:16:27,237 --> 00:16:31,074 guest: It just seems like a ton of connections to make 279 00:16:31,116 --> 00:16:33,076 in order to get a conviction. 280 00:16:33,827 --> 00:16:36,496 (distorted wind blowing) 281 00:16:36,579 --> 00:16:39,124 I think that it's gonna be difficult. 282 00:16:39,207 --> 00:16:42,460 (somber music playing) 283 00:16:45,046 --> 00:16:47,966 (quiet reporter chatter) 284 00:16:48,049 --> 00:16:51,177 (equipment rattling) 285 00:16:53,972 --> 00:16:57,267 Good, good, good? Yeah? Perfect. 286 00:17:03,523 --> 00:17:05,316 (Durst speaking) 287 00:17:07,944 --> 00:17:09,487 (Charatan speaking) 288 00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:22,375 When I looked at the evidence in the Susan Berman case, 289 00:17:22,459 --> 00:17:24,669 I said, "This case can be won." 290 00:17:24,711 --> 00:17:26,296 I'm salivating 291 00:17:26,671 --> 00:17:28,006 'cause I know that we have 292 00:17:28,048 --> 00:17:30,675 a tremendous reasonable doubt argument. 293 00:17:36,681 --> 00:17:39,726 was spun from whole cloth. 294 00:17:39,809 --> 00:17:42,145 It began in part as a result 295 00:17:42,187 --> 00:17:44,647 of a fictional movie that Jarecki made. 296 00:17:44,689 --> 00:17:46,691 -(reporters chattering) -(shutters snapping) 297 00:17:46,775 --> 00:17:48,193 The fictional, 298 00:17:48,234 --> 00:17:51,196 I emphasize the word "fictional," movie... 299 00:17:53,031 --> 00:17:56,034 Jarecki presented as one of the theories 300 00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:59,120 that Susan Berman had impersonated 301 00:17:59,204 --> 00:18:01,623 Kathie at some point. 302 00:18:01,706 --> 00:18:03,750 That's how it started. 303 00:18:03,833 --> 00:18:05,377 All from a movie. 304 00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:07,003 ♪♪ 305 00:18:07,045 --> 00:18:08,713 All from a movie. 306 00:18:08,797 --> 00:18:11,675 ♪♪ 307 00:18:12,759 --> 00:18:16,179 David Chesnoff: I don't think anybody ever had come up with that 308 00:18:16,221 --> 00:18:18,640 before it was in the film. I don't know where-- 309 00:18:18,723 --> 00:18:21,059 what, what created that 310 00:18:21,142 --> 00:18:24,104 for the screenwriter or the producer, 311 00:18:24,187 --> 00:18:25,605 but I was convinced that 312 00:18:25,689 --> 00:18:28,400 but for that reference in the movie, 313 00:18:28,483 --> 00:18:31,736 law enforcement would never have dug in at the school. 314 00:18:32,362 --> 00:18:35,240 So, the Hollywood producer who made up this story 315 00:18:35,281 --> 00:18:38,993 is the one that's provided the Hollywood script 316 00:18:39,077 --> 00:18:40,870 for why we're here. 317 00:18:40,912 --> 00:18:42,747 Also, you will hear evidence 318 00:18:42,831 --> 00:18:46,501 that it was Kathie Durst who called that morning. 319 00:18:46,584 --> 00:18:49,963 Kathie had a history of calling out sick 320 00:18:50,046 --> 00:18:52,215 instead of attending school. 321 00:18:52,257 --> 00:18:54,259 This was nothing new to Kathie. 322 00:18:54,342 --> 00:18:57,095 Kathie was all over the place 323 00:18:57,137 --> 00:19:00,390 and was living an unstable life. 324 00:19:00,432 --> 00:19:03,977 Kathie was a sweet gal and everybody loved her, 325 00:19:04,060 --> 00:19:07,397 but she did have problems. 326 00:19:07,439 --> 00:19:10,608 She had alcohol and coke problems. 327 00:19:15,113 --> 00:19:16,614 No. No. 328 00:19:16,656 --> 00:19:19,451 (DeGuerin speaking) 329 00:19:21,536 --> 00:19:22,787 Yes, sir. 330 00:19:24,330 --> 00:19:27,459 (DeGuerin speaking) 331 00:19:33,131 --> 00:19:34,466 classmate: No question about it. 332 00:19:47,020 --> 00:19:48,938 In cross-examination, 333 00:19:49,481 --> 00:19:52,567 you're not gonna have a Perry Mason moment 334 00:19:52,650 --> 00:19:55,987 where the person that's just testified to something says, 335 00:19:56,071 --> 00:19:58,323 "Oh, well, I give up. I lied." 336 00:19:58,907 --> 00:20:02,118 What you have to show is whatever reasons 337 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,204 a person has 338 00:20:04,287 --> 00:20:06,247 to either color their testimony 339 00:20:06,331 --> 00:20:08,958 or exaggerate or leave facts out. 340 00:20:20,929 --> 00:20:24,099 DeGuerin: That Monday when the call came in... 341 00:20:24,182 --> 00:20:27,352 -(phone ringing) -...Kuperman was covering for another dean. 342 00:20:27,394 --> 00:20:29,354 And this Dr. John Cook 343 00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:31,898 had told Kuperman 344 00:20:31,981 --> 00:20:33,858 that Kathie'd been missing classes. 345 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:35,402 She was in some trouble. 346 00:20:40,949 --> 00:20:44,703 (DeGuerin speaking) 347 00:20:56,172 --> 00:20:59,592 (Dr. Albert Kuperman speaking) 348 00:21:00,719 --> 00:21:04,305 (DeGuerin speaking) 349 00:21:24,075 --> 00:21:27,579 (tense music playing) 350 00:21:30,540 --> 00:21:32,459 (DeGuerin speaking) 351 00:21:33,126 --> 00:21:34,753 I'm Albert Kuperman. 352 00:21:36,338 --> 00:21:40,467 I've been at Einstein since 1975. 353 00:21:45,013 --> 00:21:48,099 (Andrew Jarecki speaking) 354 00:21:48,183 --> 00:21:51,061 I got a phone call. It was a Monday, 355 00:21:51,102 --> 00:21:53,355 to the best of my recollection. 356 00:21:54,397 --> 00:21:56,524 (DeGuerin speaking) 357 00:22:19,964 --> 00:22:22,467 DeGuerin/Jarecki: "Had you had enough contact with her prior to that..." 358 00:22:22,550 --> 00:22:24,427 Jarecki: ...to recognize her voice? 359 00:22:24,469 --> 00:22:27,055 Kuperman: Well, you know. Phones are different. 360 00:22:27,138 --> 00:22:29,140 But it sounded like her. 361 00:22:29,182 --> 00:22:31,476 (DeGuerin speaking) 362 00:22:36,189 --> 00:22:37,148 (Kuperman speaking) 363 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:44,155 (inaudible) 364 00:22:44,197 --> 00:22:45,615 (DeGuerin speaking) 365 00:22:53,331 --> 00:22:54,499 (Kuperman speaking) 366 00:23:27,490 --> 00:23:30,410 (Durst speaking) 367 00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:56,561 The discrepancies that DeGuerin unearthed 368 00:23:56,603 --> 00:23:59,397 could cause doubt for the jury. 369 00:23:59,439 --> 00:24:02,734 So now, Lewin is gonna have to prove 370 00:24:02,776 --> 00:24:06,071 that Susan is the one who made that call. 371 00:24:07,781 --> 00:24:10,658 (Hon. Mark Windham speaking) 372 00:24:10,909 --> 00:24:13,703 (Lewin speaking) 373 00:24:15,205 --> 00:24:17,582 (curious music playing) 374 00:24:17,624 --> 00:24:20,335 Lynda Obst was a close friend of Susan's 375 00:24:20,418 --> 00:24:22,629 and she moved out to Los Angeles 376 00:24:22,712 --> 00:24:24,964 to become a Hollywood producer. 377 00:24:25,048 --> 00:24:26,341 (shutter snaps) 378 00:24:26,424 --> 00:24:28,593 One of her first projects was 379 00:24:28,635 --> 00:24:31,221 they had optioned Susan's book "Easy Street" 380 00:24:31,262 --> 00:24:32,639 about the Mafia, 381 00:24:32,722 --> 00:24:34,766 and Lynda was working with Susan 382 00:24:34,849 --> 00:24:37,686 to try to turn it into a screenplay. 383 00:24:46,444 --> 00:24:47,821 Yes. 384 00:24:48,488 --> 00:24:51,866 (Lewin speaking) 385 00:24:57,247 --> 00:24:59,124 I was afraid I might. 386 00:25:00,041 --> 00:25:02,335 (episode playing on TV) 387 00:25:02,419 --> 00:25:03,753 Watching "The Jinx," 388 00:25:03,795 --> 00:25:05,964 I would say from the middle of the first episode on, 389 00:25:06,047 --> 00:25:09,050 my heart was pounding. Was just pounding. 390 00:25:09,134 --> 00:25:11,428 Because I'd never put it all together before. 391 00:25:11,469 --> 00:25:14,806 It was all in the abstract for me. 392 00:25:14,889 --> 00:25:17,392 I never really understood the story with Kathie before 393 00:25:17,475 --> 00:25:19,185 because I only had what Susan told me. 394 00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:22,105 So everything started-- It was like a rush of information 395 00:25:22,147 --> 00:25:25,150 and I think I felt very overwhelmed. 396 00:26:05,857 --> 00:26:07,567 Susan Berman: I grew up with a man 397 00:26:07,650 --> 00:26:09,486 who was very career-oriented. 398 00:26:10,153 --> 00:26:12,322 My dad was Davey Berman. He was one of the pioneers, 399 00:26:12,364 --> 00:26:15,575 mobster, gangsters, whatever you wanna basically say, 400 00:26:15,658 --> 00:26:17,160 that founded Las Vegas. 401 00:26:18,453 --> 00:26:20,246 He ran his downtown clubs, 402 00:26:20,330 --> 00:26:22,749 and then, he was also a partner with Ben Siegel 403 00:26:22,832 --> 00:26:24,876 in the Flamingo hotel. 404 00:26:24,918 --> 00:26:26,586 ♪♪ 405 00:26:27,921 --> 00:26:30,882 Karr-Morse: Susan's dad thought nothing of 406 00:26:30,924 --> 00:26:34,594 doing what he needed to do for the Mafia. 407 00:26:35,637 --> 00:26:37,263 Susie knew that 408 00:26:38,723 --> 00:26:42,060 and she admired the fact that 409 00:26:42,102 --> 00:26:44,729 he was nobody to be messed with. 410 00:26:46,231 --> 00:26:49,984 I mean, she really idolized her dad. 411 00:26:50,068 --> 00:26:52,904 But, he died when she was 12. 412 00:26:55,657 --> 00:26:58,034 We became fast friends 413 00:26:58,076 --> 00:27:02,247 because we were the only two girls in school 414 00:27:02,288 --> 00:27:04,332 who didn't have parents. 415 00:27:05,542 --> 00:27:07,419 Susie talked about her mother 416 00:27:07,502 --> 00:27:10,547 having had some nervous... 417 00:27:11,131 --> 00:27:14,342 difficulties, and I don't know exactly 418 00:27:14,426 --> 00:27:16,219 what caused her death. 419 00:27:16,928 --> 00:27:18,930 Berman: My mother had had a series of nervous breakdowns 420 00:27:19,014 --> 00:27:21,099 that started before he died. 421 00:27:21,141 --> 00:27:24,644 She may have committed suicide. That's what the autopsies say. 422 00:27:24,728 --> 00:27:27,772 I've heard that she possibly could've been murdered. 423 00:27:29,232 --> 00:27:31,526 It was an isolating life. 424 00:27:31,568 --> 00:27:33,403 But, the thing that meant the most to her, 425 00:27:33,445 --> 00:27:35,739 that my father was happy. 426 00:27:36,948 --> 00:27:39,868 Lynda Obst: The mother internalized every secret 427 00:27:39,951 --> 00:27:42,954 and nurtured every wound. 428 00:27:42,996 --> 00:27:47,292 But in Susan's mind, she was a saint. 429 00:27:47,375 --> 00:27:52,130 And her saintliness was in total devotion to her husband. 430 00:27:53,006 --> 00:27:55,925 And that's what Susan wanted to be with Bob Durst. 431 00:27:57,302 --> 00:27:58,928 She was living this fantasy 432 00:27:58,970 --> 00:28:02,474 that she created for her mother and her father. 433 00:28:04,476 --> 00:28:06,603 She was projecting herself 434 00:28:06,644 --> 00:28:09,647 into her mother's situation with Bobby. 435 00:28:09,689 --> 00:28:11,941 ♪♪ 436 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:15,528 She was protecting him, 437 00:28:15,612 --> 00:28:17,572 and she was keeping his secrets. 438 00:28:17,655 --> 00:28:20,075 ♪♪ 439 00:28:59,698 --> 00:29:01,032 (line ringing) 440 00:29:06,996 --> 00:29:09,040 ♪♪ 441 00:29:12,460 --> 00:29:14,879 (Durst speaking) 442 00:29:58,340 --> 00:30:01,343 Lewin: What I can tell you is that I can detonate 443 00:30:01,426 --> 00:30:03,261 the "he said/she said." 444 00:30:04,095 --> 00:30:07,432 Because there's another piece of evidence 445 00:30:07,474 --> 00:30:09,559 and it really demonstrates 446 00:30:09,601 --> 00:30:11,686 that Susan appears to be involved. 447 00:30:11,770 --> 00:30:13,688 (phone ringing) 448 00:30:13,772 --> 00:30:16,149 I got a call at the office, 449 00:30:16,232 --> 00:30:19,444 and the person says, "Are you aware 450 00:30:19,486 --> 00:30:23,156 "that there is a conversation, a recording, 451 00:30:23,239 --> 00:30:26,618 "between Albert Goldman and Susan Berman 452 00:30:26,701 --> 00:30:32,332 that took place nine days after Kathie disappeared?" 453 00:30:32,415 --> 00:30:34,793 And I say, "No, I was not aware of it." 454 00:30:34,834 --> 00:30:37,087 My first question is, "Who's Albert Goldman?" 455 00:30:37,128 --> 00:30:40,674 -(typing) -(curious music playing) 456 00:30:40,757 --> 00:30:42,967 I'm one of the best investigative reporters, 457 00:30:43,009 --> 00:30:45,970 I think, in the world today. 458 00:30:46,012 --> 00:30:48,056 Charles Bagli: Albert Goldman was a sort of 459 00:30:48,139 --> 00:30:51,309 pop culture author, critic, 460 00:30:51,393 --> 00:30:53,853 -gossip columnist. -(tape rewinding) 461 00:30:53,937 --> 00:30:55,980 And even though the conversation was supposed 462 00:30:56,022 --> 00:30:58,483 to be just between friends and off the record... 463 00:30:58,525 --> 00:31:00,485 -(garbled voices) -...Goldman recorded everything. 464 00:31:00,527 --> 00:31:01,986 Berman (on tape): I'm a little bit psychic. 465 00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:04,322 You know, I can sorta foretell things... 466 00:31:04,406 --> 00:31:06,491 And I'm listening to it, 467 00:31:06,533 --> 00:31:08,159 and I'm thinking, 468 00:31:08,493 --> 00:31:11,413 the best single piece of evidence we have 469 00:31:11,496 --> 00:31:14,833 that shows Susan helped Bob cover up Kathie's murder 470 00:31:14,874 --> 00:31:17,669 would be that tape. 471 00:31:19,796 --> 00:31:21,506 (Berman speaking) 472 00:31:52,454 --> 00:31:54,581 Jarecki: Did you ever hear of a recording 473 00:31:54,664 --> 00:31:56,207 made by the writer Albert Goldman 474 00:31:56,291 --> 00:31:58,752 of a call he had with Susan Berman 475 00:31:58,835 --> 00:32:02,297 back in 1982 right after Kathie disappeared? 476 00:32:02,339 --> 00:32:03,423 I heard about it, 477 00:32:03,506 --> 00:32:06,551 but I've never heard it. I'd love to hear it. 478 00:32:09,929 --> 00:32:12,390 (Berman speaking) 479 00:32:56,351 --> 00:32:58,186 Lisa DePaulo: That's a lie. 480 00:32:58,269 --> 00:33:00,897 There's no way she thought of Susan as her best friend. 481 00:33:01,564 --> 00:33:04,359 She had best friends. They loved her. 482 00:33:04,442 --> 00:33:06,152 Berman (on phone): At first, 483 00:33:06,236 --> 00:33:08,238 like, the police wouldn't even take it seriously. 484 00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:09,823 "Runaway wife." Well, dig this. 485 00:33:09,906 --> 00:33:12,075 First of all, Kathie's not a calculating Jewish girl 486 00:33:12,117 --> 00:33:13,451 who would know how to run away. 487 00:33:13,535 --> 00:33:16,413 Number two, she had no lovers. I knew her intimately. 488 00:33:16,454 --> 00:33:18,665 Number three, he had cut off all her charge cards. 489 00:33:18,748 --> 00:33:20,834 And number four, there was no activity on her checking account. 490 00:33:20,917 --> 00:33:22,293 She could not go anywhere, you know? 491 00:33:22,627 --> 00:33:23,628 Nah. 492 00:33:23,712 --> 00:33:26,131 DePaulo: It-It's like she had a checklist. 493 00:33:26,881 --> 00:33:28,341 She was, like, narrowing it down 494 00:33:28,425 --> 00:33:30,885 to the best story that would explain 495 00:33:30,969 --> 00:33:32,971 why Kathie was nowhere. 496 00:33:33,013 --> 00:33:36,099 "Oh my. What happened to Kathie?" 497 00:33:37,183 --> 00:33:38,977 But it sounds good, 498 00:33:39,019 --> 00:33:42,022 and that's what's going on here. 499 00:33:42,105 --> 00:33:45,442 Susan's drawing Albert into a story 500 00:33:45,525 --> 00:33:47,193 but, at the same time, 501 00:33:47,277 --> 00:33:49,863 checking the possible scenarios 502 00:33:49,946 --> 00:33:53,825 that she might tell the police or the media. 503 00:33:53,908 --> 00:33:57,829 (Berman speaking) 504 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,567 Berman: Okay, let me ask you something. 505 00:35:09,651 --> 00:35:11,611 -This is confidential, right? -Whoa! Whoa! 506 00:35:11,945 --> 00:35:13,238 -(click) -I mean, 507 00:35:13,321 --> 00:35:15,657 to talk like that about... 508 00:35:17,033 --> 00:35:18,618 a murdered woman? 509 00:35:18,702 --> 00:35:21,246 It's ugly. 510 00:35:22,747 --> 00:35:24,416 (Berman speaking) 511 00:36:05,790 --> 00:36:07,751 She just degrades her. 512 00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:11,296 Says, "She wasn't doing well in school." 513 00:36:12,339 --> 00:36:14,174 The opposite was true. 514 00:36:15,175 --> 00:36:18,345 Her life dream is within reach. 515 00:36:20,722 --> 00:36:22,640 And then, Susan says, 516 00:36:22,724 --> 00:36:25,143 "Oh, and by the way, she's a drinker. 517 00:36:25,185 --> 00:36:27,354 ♪♪ 518 00:36:27,437 --> 00:36:30,648 Oh, and, and, by the way, she does coke." 519 00:36:32,108 --> 00:36:34,402 It was just one thing after another 520 00:36:34,819 --> 00:36:38,073 to make her seem... 521 00:36:38,156 --> 00:36:41,868 like she's not a good person, not even worth looking for. 522 00:36:44,829 --> 00:36:49,000 So, Susan is trying to knit together a better story. 523 00:36:49,334 --> 00:36:52,295 Berman: Now, just tell me if there's any avenue I haven't covered. 524 00:36:52,337 --> 00:36:54,255 Bagli: She's tossing out ideas, 525 00:36:54,339 --> 00:36:56,049 and Albert keeps knocking them down. 526 00:36:56,132 --> 00:36:58,426 -Berman: The runaway wife. -Albert Goldman: Nah, she didn't run away. 527 00:36:58,510 --> 00:37:00,136 Berman: Nah. Or, maybe she died of an overdose, 528 00:37:00,178 --> 00:37:02,847 -and he stuffed the body somewhere. But, no, no. -Goldman: Nah, nah. 529 00:37:02,931 --> 00:37:04,349 Bagli: But, eventually, 530 00:37:04,432 --> 00:37:07,602 she hits on one that he likes. 531 00:37:07,686 --> 00:37:09,354 Berman: Let me just ask you one other thing, 532 00:37:09,437 --> 00:37:10,689 'cause you've lived here a long time. 533 00:37:10,730 --> 00:37:12,524 She had diamond stud earrings on, 534 00:37:12,565 --> 00:37:13,900 you know, that he'd given her. 535 00:37:13,983 --> 00:37:16,111 And he always was telling her, "Don't wear them." 536 00:37:16,194 --> 00:37:18,697 -So, she looks wealthy. -Goldman: You think that's literally true, 537 00:37:18,738 --> 00:37:20,865 -that she had diamond earrings? -Berman: Oh yeah! 538 00:37:21,783 --> 00:37:24,744 Goldman: Oh, well, man, there's your answer right there. 539 00:37:24,828 --> 00:37:26,079 Berman: Really? 540 00:37:26,162 --> 00:37:27,372 Goldman: Yes. 541 00:37:27,455 --> 00:37:29,582 Berman: Right? And she was beautiful. 542 00:37:29,666 --> 00:37:33,128 Like, she looks wealthy 'cause she's so pretty, you know? 543 00:37:33,378 --> 00:37:36,381 Goldman: It's a simple, like, grab... 544 00:37:36,464 --> 00:37:38,258 -Berman: Grab, kill. -Goldman: ...rob, 545 00:37:38,341 --> 00:37:41,094 rape, kill, dump. 546 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:44,139 Berman: I think you're right. 547 00:37:44,222 --> 00:37:45,640 Yeah, it is conceivable 548 00:37:45,724 --> 00:37:47,892 that she was snatched in broad daylight 549 00:37:47,976 --> 00:37:51,396 'cause she had diamond earrings on and was gorgeous, right? 550 00:37:52,105 --> 00:37:53,398 Right? 551 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,400 Yeah, she had diamond stud earrings on, 552 00:37:55,483 --> 00:37:56,901 -and she was snatched. -Goldman: Yeah. 553 00:37:56,943 --> 00:37:58,737 Berman: And we'll never find anyone who saw it. 554 00:37:58,778 --> 00:38:00,947 -Goldman: Eh, somebody saw it. -Berman: But nobody'll ever-- 555 00:38:01,031 --> 00:38:03,116 I mean, it could happen, right? 556 00:38:03,199 --> 00:38:05,285 ♪♪ 557 00:38:05,368 --> 00:38:09,414 Bagli: So the stage is set by Susan. 558 00:38:09,998 --> 00:38:13,501 Kathie was wearing diamonds and disappeared. 559 00:38:14,878 --> 00:38:18,256 Now, Susan can take this narrative to the press 560 00:38:18,340 --> 00:38:23,011 and divert their attention away from Bob. 561 00:38:23,094 --> 00:38:25,680 The tabloids played it big. 562 00:38:25,764 --> 00:38:28,600 It really put the story out there. 563 00:38:31,978 --> 00:38:34,564 Jarecki: Was she wearing diamond earrings? 564 00:38:34,606 --> 00:38:35,815 No. 565 00:38:36,441 --> 00:38:39,110 The diamond earrings were later found 566 00:38:39,152 --> 00:38:42,947 in Bob and Kathie's apartment on Riverside Drive. 567 00:38:43,031 --> 00:38:44,074 (shutter snaps) 568 00:38:45,116 --> 00:38:46,785 (Berman speaking) 569 00:38:50,580 --> 00:38:54,000 Bagli: "I'm saving my tears 'til it's official." 570 00:38:54,626 --> 00:38:56,294 That's the most chilling moment 571 00:38:56,378 --> 00:38:58,505 in the entire conversation 572 00:38:58,588 --> 00:39:02,133 because she knows that Kathie's dead. 573 00:39:04,260 --> 00:39:07,430 DePaulo: Susan was determined to put a story out there 574 00:39:07,472 --> 00:39:10,433 that would take the attention off Bob. 575 00:39:10,475 --> 00:39:12,811 And once she did that... 576 00:39:12,852 --> 00:39:14,938 (Goldman speaking) 577 00:39:14,979 --> 00:39:16,398 (Berman speaking) 578 00:39:17,273 --> 00:39:19,442 DePaulo: ...her job was done. 579 00:39:20,110 --> 00:39:21,528 (echoing click) 580 00:39:26,032 --> 00:39:27,492 This changed my perception 581 00:39:27,575 --> 00:39:30,453 of something I'd been working on for 17 years. 582 00:39:30,495 --> 00:39:32,330 It made me realize 583 00:39:32,372 --> 00:39:35,208 she was an enthusiastic partner. 584 00:39:35,291 --> 00:39:38,837 That's what turned her on was the idea that he needed her, 585 00:39:38,878 --> 00:39:40,880 and she could come up with the stuff. 586 00:39:40,964 --> 00:39:42,507 She could be vital to him. 587 00:39:42,590 --> 00:39:45,677 -(shutter snaps) -And she can be like 588 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,013 the saintly wife, taking care of business. 589 00:39:48,054 --> 00:39:50,515 "Don't you worry about it. I'll take care of it." 590 00:39:51,474 --> 00:39:53,184 And also, it's more intimate with him 591 00:39:53,268 --> 00:39:55,145 than anybody else will be with him. 592 00:39:55,186 --> 00:39:58,857 -(shutter snaps) -They are improvising this lie together. 593 00:39:58,898 --> 00:40:01,526 It's a life-and-death situation. 594 00:40:01,609 --> 00:40:04,446 They're tied to each other like they have children. 595 00:40:04,487 --> 00:40:07,657 -(shutter snaps) -This ties them together forever. 596 00:40:08,533 --> 00:40:11,161 Karr-Morse: She was a full-on accomplice. 597 00:40:11,536 --> 00:40:14,497 From a person I love so much, 598 00:40:14,539 --> 00:40:16,207 it's so awful. 599 00:40:17,250 --> 00:40:19,753 I mean, it's so awful. 600 00:40:19,836 --> 00:40:22,047 Jarecki: This recording made it much harder for me 601 00:40:22,130 --> 00:40:24,007 to see Susan as a true victim. 602 00:40:24,049 --> 00:40:25,425 DePaulo: Yeah. 603 00:40:25,508 --> 00:40:27,969 Jarecki: Terrible when somebody gets murdered, 604 00:40:28,053 --> 00:40:30,305 but this person 605 00:40:30,388 --> 00:40:32,849 was deeply involved in this crime. 606 00:40:34,517 --> 00:40:36,186 Oh, Susan. 607 00:40:36,227 --> 00:40:38,980 (shutter snaps, film camera winding) 608 00:40:39,064 --> 00:40:41,066 (birds chirping) 609 00:40:41,149 --> 00:40:42,650 ♪♪ 610 00:40:42,734 --> 00:40:44,736 Lewin: The Goldman tape would counter 611 00:40:44,819 --> 00:40:47,739 much of what the defense is putting forward. 612 00:40:47,781 --> 00:40:49,741 You hear Susan's voice... 613 00:40:49,783 --> 00:40:51,785 Berman (on phone): She's dead, right? I'm saving my tears 614 00:40:51,868 --> 00:40:53,161 'til it's official, but you think so? 615 00:40:53,244 --> 00:40:55,914 Lewin: ...and the emotional response is, "Wow, 616 00:40:55,955 --> 00:40:59,084 "this woman is really manipulative. 617 00:40:59,167 --> 00:41:01,586 She is really tied into it." 618 00:41:01,628 --> 00:41:02,796 Goldman: Jesus, that's definitely it. 619 00:41:02,879 --> 00:41:04,881 Berman: Yeah, you got the story. 620 00:41:05,423 --> 00:41:08,843 Lewin: But jurors are human beings. 621 00:41:08,927 --> 00:41:13,014 And if they truly dislike your victim, 622 00:41:13,098 --> 00:41:15,433 it just makes it harder. 623 00:41:16,059 --> 00:41:21,106 So, I decided not to use the recording 624 00:41:21,189 --> 00:41:23,108 because I don't want the jury 625 00:41:23,191 --> 00:41:27,195 to dislike Susan so much that they basically say, 626 00:41:27,278 --> 00:41:28,488 "You know what? 627 00:41:28,571 --> 00:41:31,241 We don't care that she got murdered." 628 00:41:35,203 --> 00:41:36,579 (birds chirping) 629 00:41:36,621 --> 00:41:37,872 But ultimately, 630 00:41:37,956 --> 00:41:41,167 I felt like I had something even stronger. 631 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,838 newscaster: Prosecutors dropped a bombshell 632 00:41:44,921 --> 00:41:46,506 that they have a secret witness 633 00:41:46,589 --> 00:41:48,633 who can provide valuable information 634 00:41:48,717 --> 00:41:50,510 about the murder of Durst's close friend 635 00:41:50,593 --> 00:41:53,013 Susan Berman 16 years ago. 636 00:41:53,096 --> 00:41:55,640 -Lewin: Your Honor, if I just-- -DeGuerin: Time out. Wait a minute. Hold on. 637 00:41:55,724 --> 00:41:57,267 (overlapping arguing) 638 00:41:57,308 --> 00:41:59,894 newscaster: Prosecutors clashed with Durst's defense team 639 00:41:59,978 --> 00:42:02,480 when they implied they need to get that testimony 640 00:42:02,522 --> 00:42:04,524 on the record as soon as possible 641 00:42:04,607 --> 00:42:09,154 because the witness fears being killed by Durst. 642 00:42:09,237 --> 00:42:12,323 Witnesses in this case, 643 00:42:12,365 --> 00:42:15,660 realistically, understandably, 644 00:42:15,702 --> 00:42:17,954 are concerned about their safety. 645 00:42:19,456 --> 00:42:21,291 Chesnoff: Bob was in complete isolation. 646 00:42:21,332 --> 00:42:23,001 His phone calls were monitored. 647 00:42:23,084 --> 00:42:24,294 He was sickly and old. 648 00:42:24,336 --> 00:42:28,048 And the idea that somehow he was a danger to anybody but himself 649 00:42:28,131 --> 00:42:32,344 at this point in time, to me, seemed absurd. 650 00:42:32,427 --> 00:42:34,346 -(beep) -Charatan: Hi. 651 00:42:34,429 --> 00:42:37,640 This is the first time 652 00:42:37,682 --> 00:42:41,811 they've put me in chains for a visit. 653 00:42:41,853 --> 00:42:45,857 -Sorry. -Discussion was about 654 00:42:46,399 --> 00:42:49,944 them having secret witnesses 655 00:42:50,028 --> 00:42:54,407 whose identity has to remain secret 656 00:42:54,491 --> 00:42:57,702 -because I'm a threat. -I know. 657 00:42:57,786 --> 00:43:01,998 Seems to me that I'm not a threat because I'm in jail. 658 00:43:02,832 --> 00:43:05,669 I know. I think the whole thing is ludicrous. 659 00:43:07,170 --> 00:43:09,297 Windham: In some cases, 660 00:43:09,381 --> 00:43:11,383 there are witnesses whose lives 661 00:43:11,424 --> 00:43:13,593 have, in fact, been threatened. 662 00:43:14,135 --> 00:43:17,180 Whatever it takes for a witness to feel more comfortable, 663 00:43:17,222 --> 00:43:20,725 that's something that I'm going to consider. 664 00:43:20,809 --> 00:43:22,227 Lewin: Let me be clear. 665 00:43:22,727 --> 00:43:26,398 That man kills witnesses. That's what he does. 666 00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:30,610 Mr. Durst, when pushed into a corner, 667 00:43:30,694 --> 00:43:32,696 he murders people. 668 00:43:33,738 --> 00:43:36,950 -(shutter snaps) -(curious music playing) 669 00:43:39,536 --> 00:43:42,622 Nick Chavin: You have two best friends. 670 00:43:42,706 --> 00:43:45,625 One of them kills the other. 671 00:43:45,709 --> 00:43:48,420 It's Cain and Abel. It's biblical. 672 00:43:48,461 --> 00:43:50,714 -(rattling) -(sighs) 673 00:43:51,923 --> 00:43:54,092 newscaster: The witness is Nick Chavin. 674 00:43:54,134 --> 00:43:57,554 -(shutter snaps) -He was a very good friend of Robert Durst 675 00:43:57,595 --> 00:44:00,849 and a very good friend of Susan Berman. 676 00:44:02,183 --> 00:44:04,936 (distant roaring) 677 00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:25,540 Nick Chavin: We're sitting in the plane, and the captain said, 678 00:44:25,623 --> 00:44:28,251 "Everyone please remain in your seats. 679 00:44:28,293 --> 00:44:31,254 There will be a few people getting off here." 680 00:44:31,296 --> 00:44:35,425 -(sirens wail) -Security guards say, "Okay, follow us," 681 00:44:35,467 --> 00:44:36,885 and everyone pretty much thought 682 00:44:36,968 --> 00:44:38,803 that we were the criminals. 683 00:44:38,887 --> 00:44:41,806 (laughs) But walking down that aisle 684 00:44:41,848 --> 00:44:43,933 and having so many people gawk at you, 685 00:44:43,975 --> 00:44:47,103 it's a, it's, it's a kick. It's bigger than performing. 686 00:44:47,145 --> 00:44:50,482 -(siren wailing) -(mysterious music playing) 687 00:44:50,565 --> 00:44:53,526 newscaster: Robert Durst used to be his very best friend, 688 00:44:53,610 --> 00:44:54,611 but today he showed up to court 689 00:44:54,652 --> 00:44:56,529 with two security guards at his side, 690 00:44:56,613 --> 00:44:59,532 suggesting he now fears for his safety. 691 00:44:59,616 --> 00:45:01,826 They took us right to John Lewin. 692 00:45:01,868 --> 00:45:05,246 He said, "The questions are gonna be really easy. 693 00:45:05,330 --> 00:45:07,957 "Don't rehearse. 694 00:45:08,750 --> 00:45:10,752 Just let it go." 695 00:45:11,836 --> 00:45:13,797 And that was good advice. 696 00:45:13,838 --> 00:45:15,924 (door creaks) 697 00:45:17,509 --> 00:45:19,302 One of the things I've always wanted in life 698 00:45:19,344 --> 00:45:22,263 was to have that much exposure to the public. 699 00:45:23,390 --> 00:45:25,100 I was made for those moments. 700 00:45:25,183 --> 00:45:27,018 I mean, Jesus, I'd like to say 701 00:45:27,060 --> 00:45:29,020 the seriousness of the situation 702 00:45:29,104 --> 00:45:32,357 dampened all my excitement. It didn't. 703 00:45:35,443 --> 00:45:39,239 (Durst speaking) 704 00:45:44,828 --> 00:45:46,204 (Susie Giordano speaking) 705 00:46:09,602 --> 00:46:12,230 Nick Chavin: What was surreal for me 706 00:46:12,313 --> 00:46:14,065 was seeing Bob. 707 00:46:15,608 --> 00:46:16,943 I needed to not look at him 708 00:46:17,027 --> 00:46:20,405 so that my testimony was pure me 709 00:46:20,447 --> 00:46:22,824 and what I wanted to say. 710 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,373 Lewin: Sometime late in 2014, 711 00:46:31,416 --> 00:46:35,003 did you have a dinner with Robert Durst 712 00:46:35,086 --> 00:46:37,005 at Barawine Restaurant? 713 00:46:38,048 --> 00:46:39,632 Yes. 714 00:46:39,716 --> 00:46:42,927 -(car honking) -(tense music playing) 715 00:46:46,139 --> 00:46:49,893 Lewin: Did you and Mr. Durst have discussion 716 00:46:49,976 --> 00:46:53,521 about what the purpose was going to be for this dinner? 717 00:46:54,773 --> 00:46:56,149 Nick Chavin: Yes. 718 00:46:56,232 --> 00:46:58,193 Lewin: Can you describe that discussion? 719 00:46:59,277 --> 00:47:03,031 Nick Chavin: He said he wanted to talk to me about Kathie and Susan. 720 00:47:03,782 --> 00:47:05,200 (opens door) 721 00:47:06,659 --> 00:47:08,244 The dinner concluded... 722 00:47:08,328 --> 00:47:10,914 (inaudible conversation) 723 00:47:10,955 --> 00:47:13,625 ...and it was then that I-- as we got up to leave, 724 00:47:13,667 --> 00:47:15,335 I realized that we hadn't discussed 725 00:47:15,418 --> 00:47:18,463 the two things that he had mentioned, Kathie and Susan. 726 00:47:20,131 --> 00:47:25,095 I felt kinda weird that... I didn't bring it up. 727 00:47:25,136 --> 00:47:28,890 -(tense music continues) -(street noise) 728 00:47:28,973 --> 00:47:30,892 We walked out the door. 729 00:47:32,477 --> 00:47:35,146 (sniffles) This is hard. We walked out the door 730 00:47:36,189 --> 00:47:39,984 and on the sidewalk, I said, 731 00:47:41,194 --> 00:47:43,446 "You wanted to talk about Susan?" 732 00:47:46,366 --> 00:47:48,201 And Bob said, 733 00:47:50,203 --> 00:47:51,913 "I had to. 734 00:47:51,996 --> 00:47:54,624 It was her or me. I had no choice." 735 00:47:57,335 --> 00:47:59,879 And then, he turned to walk away, 736 00:47:59,963 --> 00:48:03,174 and I said, "You wanted to talk about Kathie." 737 00:48:04,759 --> 00:48:07,554 And he just kept walking away. 738 00:48:08,888 --> 00:48:11,016 Nothing more was said. 739 00:48:13,852 --> 00:48:15,645 Bagli: "It was her or me. 740 00:48:15,687 --> 00:48:18,523 I had no choice." 741 00:48:18,565 --> 00:48:21,443 This was devastating testimony. 742 00:48:36,916 --> 00:48:39,210 Nick Chavin's big contribution 743 00:48:39,252 --> 00:48:41,129 was his alleged conversation with Bob, 744 00:48:41,212 --> 00:48:43,423 which was very gratuitous. 745 00:48:43,506 --> 00:48:45,216 I don't think it's unfair to suggest 746 00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:49,054 that his 10 minute of fame may have influenced 747 00:48:49,095 --> 00:48:51,056 what he ultimately testified to. 748 00:48:51,139 --> 00:48:54,976 It was really unverifiable. 749 00:48:55,810 --> 00:48:57,771 (Lewin speaking) 750 00:48:58,021 --> 00:49:00,398 (Windham speaking) 751 00:49:02,567 --> 00:49:03,485 (DeGuerin speaking) 752 00:49:04,277 --> 00:49:05,528 (sniffles) 753 00:49:07,781 --> 00:49:09,491 (Nick Chavin speaking) 754 00:49:12,118 --> 00:49:15,997 (DeGuerin speaking) 755 00:49:52,575 --> 00:49:55,787 DeGuerin: This ridiculous claim that Bob confessed to him 756 00:49:55,829 --> 00:50:00,458 on the streets of New York, near a busy restaurant, um... 757 00:50:01,876 --> 00:50:04,087 You can follow that through 758 00:50:04,129 --> 00:50:07,007 the dozens of conversations 759 00:50:07,090 --> 00:50:10,135 between Lewin and Chavin. 760 00:50:10,176 --> 00:50:11,720 There was inconsistencies 761 00:50:11,803 --> 00:50:16,057 or really contradictions, that was all recorded. 762 00:50:38,997 --> 00:50:41,166 "And we left. We walked outside. 763 00:50:41,249 --> 00:50:43,084 "And I-- and I looked. 764 00:50:43,168 --> 00:50:45,628 "He was gonna go one way. 765 00:50:45,712 --> 00:50:47,339 "And I was gonna go the other. 766 00:50:47,422 --> 00:50:50,383 And I looked at him. And I said, 'Bob...'" 767 00:50:50,633 --> 00:50:53,553 Nick Chavin (on tape): 768 00:51:12,614 --> 00:51:15,450 Chavin kinda changed his tune, didn't he? 769 00:51:33,968 --> 00:51:35,470 It's interesting cross-examining people 770 00:51:35,553 --> 00:51:37,222 who have given statements in the past, 771 00:51:37,263 --> 00:51:39,391 so you have a blueprint. 772 00:51:39,474 --> 00:51:41,226 'Cause nine outta ten times, 773 00:51:41,267 --> 00:51:44,354 they don't say the same thing twice or the third time. 774 00:51:44,604 --> 00:51:48,066 And DeGuerin really dug in on Nick Chavin. 775 00:51:48,108 --> 00:51:49,609 (DeGuerin speaking) 776 00:51:54,656 --> 00:51:58,743 Lewin (on tape): You and Bob ended up going out to a-- 777 00:51:58,827 --> 00:52:00,745 (clears throat) to dinner. 778 00:52:00,829 --> 00:52:02,872 And, when it was over 779 00:52:02,914 --> 00:52:04,791 you were pressing him. 780 00:52:04,874 --> 00:52:08,128 And, finally, he turned to you and he said, 781 00:52:08,211 --> 00:52:10,630 "It was either Susan or me." 782 00:52:10,714 --> 00:52:12,382 Nick Chavin: Yeah. No, that didn't happen. 783 00:52:12,424 --> 00:52:13,550 I don't know what else to tell you. 784 00:52:13,591 --> 00:52:14,843 You don't want me to lie, do you? 785 00:52:14,926 --> 00:52:16,428 Lewin: No. No, Nick... 786 00:52:17,220 --> 00:52:20,098 DeGuerin: I think that getting Chavin to say what he said 787 00:52:20,140 --> 00:52:23,560 was crucial to Lewin's case. 788 00:52:23,601 --> 00:52:27,480 He knew what he wanted to get from those witnesses, and... 789 00:52:27,564 --> 00:52:30,525 so he suggested those, those answers. 790 00:52:30,900 --> 00:52:35,280 (DeGuerin speaking) 791 00:53:00,305 --> 00:53:02,140 Chesnoff: Listening to Nick's testimony, 792 00:53:02,223 --> 00:53:05,352 I don't think it had any real impact. 793 00:53:06,770 --> 00:53:08,813 Just consider the source. 794 00:53:11,107 --> 00:53:14,319 (soft music playing) 795 00:53:17,697 --> 00:53:21,242 I would prefer that justice be done 796 00:53:21,326 --> 00:53:22,869 because of Susan Berman. 797 00:53:22,952 --> 00:53:25,789 (inaudible) 798 00:53:25,830 --> 00:53:28,667 I sometimes have dreams about her now. 799 00:53:33,296 --> 00:53:34,506 Berman: I think the goal of life, 800 00:53:34,547 --> 00:53:37,175 this blessed gift that we all struggle with, 801 00:53:37,217 --> 00:53:38,510 is to somehow, as we get older 802 00:53:38,551 --> 00:53:41,054 and we mature, make more and more good choices. 803 00:53:41,137 --> 00:53:44,516 ♪♪ 804 00:53:44,599 --> 00:53:47,227 Choices that are good for us. 805 00:53:47,310 --> 00:53:49,604 Choices that are good for our family. 806 00:53:49,688 --> 00:53:51,981 Choices that are good for humanity. 807 00:53:53,650 --> 00:53:55,235 (doorbell rings) 808 00:53:55,318 --> 00:53:57,862 (muffled dog barking) 809 00:53:57,946 --> 00:53:59,406 (doorbell rings) 810 00:54:01,241 --> 00:54:04,828 Sometimes, I think life forces you into choices 811 00:54:04,869 --> 00:54:07,288 and it's a tragic thing 812 00:54:08,415 --> 00:54:11,292 because that past could erase your present. 813 00:54:12,085 --> 00:54:15,130 -(dog barking) -(paws clicking) 814 00:54:15,213 --> 00:54:16,715 I don't know. I'm not a philosopher. 815 00:54:16,756 --> 00:54:19,009 But it's something I've thought about. 816 00:54:21,136 --> 00:54:24,222 (echoing dog barking) 817 00:54:24,264 --> 00:54:25,849 (pen clicking) 818 00:54:25,890 --> 00:54:28,560 (crinkling) 819 00:54:30,103 --> 00:54:33,314 (barking fades out) 820 00:54:35,775 --> 00:54:38,820 ♪♪ 821 00:54:43,241 --> 00:54:46,453 (slow whistling) 822 00:57:30,533 --> 00:57:32,744 (music fades out)