1 00:00:11,803 --> 00:00:14,139 (breeze blowing) 2 00:00:14,222 --> 00:00:17,475 (soft ominous music playing) 3 00:00:17,559 --> 00:00:20,186 newscaster: More than 50 days of trial. We covered it. 4 00:00:20,270 --> 00:00:22,272 We watched it. We absorbed it. 5 00:00:24,441 --> 00:00:27,277 Today, we'll cover the final moment in the saga, 6 00:00:27,318 --> 00:00:29,404 the sentencing of the defendant, 7 00:00:29,487 --> 00:00:31,781 convicted murderer Robert Durst. 8 00:00:31,823 --> 00:00:35,493 Hon. Mark Windham: Please be seated, everyone. Good morning. 9 00:00:36,286 --> 00:00:38,496 Calling the case People versus Robert Durst. 10 00:00:38,580 --> 00:00:41,499 Mr. Durst is present 11 00:00:41,958 --> 00:00:45,879 and represented by Mr. DeGuerin, 12 00:00:45,962 --> 00:00:47,589 Mr. Chesnoff. 13 00:00:48,298 --> 00:00:51,843 The ripple effects on a homicide are terrible. 14 00:00:51,926 --> 00:00:53,011 And so, 15 00:00:53,470 --> 00:00:56,931 for the society to heal, to recover, 16 00:00:57,015 --> 00:00:59,809 there must be some process 17 00:00:59,851 --> 00:01:03,480 of assigning accountability. 18 00:01:04,022 --> 00:01:06,399 Mr. Durst confessed to the crime 19 00:01:06,483 --> 00:01:10,111 in the special circumstance of witness killing to Nick Chavin. 20 00:01:10,695 --> 00:01:13,198 Mr. Durst's statement that only the killer 21 00:01:13,281 --> 00:01:14,824 could've written the Cadaver Note, 22 00:01:14,866 --> 00:01:16,658 which, obviously, is true, 23 00:01:16,701 --> 00:01:19,537 and then his admission that he wrote that note 24 00:01:19,621 --> 00:01:23,833 proves his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt a second way. 25 00:01:24,542 --> 00:01:27,962 His bathroom confession to three killings 26 00:01:28,045 --> 00:01:30,131 on a nationwide broadcast 27 00:01:30,215 --> 00:01:33,718 is a confession he cannot and did not explain. 28 00:01:33,759 --> 00:01:37,972 That proves his guilt in a third, independent way. 29 00:01:39,015 --> 00:01:43,103 It's the judgment and sentence of this court, Mr. Durst, 30 00:01:43,186 --> 00:01:45,689 that you be imprisoned in the state prison 31 00:01:45,729 --> 00:01:48,692 for the term prescribed by law. 32 00:01:48,733 --> 00:01:51,235 That is, life in prison 33 00:01:51,277 --> 00:01:54,447 without the possibility of parole. 34 00:01:54,531 --> 00:01:55,824 ♪♪ 35 00:01:55,907 --> 00:01:59,119 Charles Bagli: By the time Bob's sentencing took place, 36 00:01:59,202 --> 00:02:03,581 whatever magic he used to be able to... 37 00:02:03,623 --> 00:02:06,459 display is gone. 38 00:02:10,170 --> 00:02:13,842 And after the hearing, 39 00:02:13,925 --> 00:02:16,636 Bob is kind of on his own. 40 00:02:19,764 --> 00:02:22,600 His friends knew they had already put themselves 41 00:02:22,642 --> 00:02:24,269 in some jeopardy. 42 00:02:25,812 --> 00:02:26,980 And so, 43 00:02:27,063 --> 00:02:30,734 he was all on his lonesome at that point. 44 00:02:32,444 --> 00:02:35,030 operator (on phone): Hello. This is a prepaid call from... 45 00:02:35,113 --> 00:02:36,781 Robert Durst (on phone): Bob! 46 00:02:37,406 --> 00:02:39,242 -Hello? -voicemail: At the tone, 47 00:02:39,284 --> 00:02:40,952 please record your message. 48 00:02:40,994 --> 00:02:42,787 When you are finished recording, 49 00:02:42,829 --> 00:02:46,124 -you may hang up or press one for more options. -Durst: Hello? 50 00:02:46,166 --> 00:02:47,584 (beep) 51 00:02:53,923 --> 00:02:55,300 (beep) 52 00:03:02,682 --> 00:03:04,809 (insects chirping) 53 00:03:04,893 --> 00:03:07,520 -(beep) -Debbie? 54 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:10,940 Debbie? 55 00:03:14,069 --> 00:03:16,863 Hello?! 56 00:03:16,946 --> 00:03:20,367 ("Survivor" by Nathaniel Rateliff & The Night Sweats playing) 57 00:03:21,076 --> 00:03:23,328 ♪ Well, you just think that I'm ♪ 58 00:03:25,829 --> 00:03:27,665 ♪ Some great survivor ♪ 59 00:03:29,668 --> 00:03:30,669 (static) 60 00:03:30,710 --> 00:03:32,587 ♪ And you just build upon ♪ 61 00:03:35,340 --> 00:03:37,926 ♪ The light to carry you ♪ 62 00:03:38,009 --> 00:03:40,762 (shutter snapping) 63 00:03:40,845 --> 00:03:43,264 ♪ Well, I don't even talk that way ♪ 64 00:03:43,348 --> 00:03:45,433 ♪ See, I wanted you to stay ♪ 65 00:03:45,517 --> 00:03:47,769 ♪ And show you the world's a better place ♪ 66 00:03:47,852 --> 00:03:49,270 (scuttling) 67 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,482 ♪ And as we crawl to find our way ♪ 68 00:03:52,524 --> 00:03:56,486 ♪ We even take the shape of something else ♪ 69 00:03:58,863 --> 00:03:59,572 (shutter snaps) 70 00:04:00,031 --> 00:04:02,534 -♪ You think that I'm just ♪ -(gunshot) 71 00:04:04,911 --> 00:04:07,497 ♪ Some great survivor ♪ 72 00:04:09,666 --> 00:04:12,877 ♪ You think that I'm just ♪ 73 00:04:12,919 --> 00:04:14,504 (shutters snapping) 74 00:04:14,546 --> 00:04:17,257 ♪ Some great survivor ♪ 75 00:04:20,093 --> 00:04:23,972 ♪ I'm afraid that the weight of the world ♪ 76 00:04:24,055 --> 00:04:26,433 ♪ Is catching up with you ♪ 77 00:04:26,891 --> 00:04:29,894 ♪♪ 78 00:04:30,895 --> 00:04:32,647 (scuttling) 79 00:04:34,733 --> 00:04:36,609 (wind blowing) 80 00:04:41,406 --> 00:04:44,576 -(ominous music playing) -(clock ticking) 81 00:04:45,827 --> 00:04:48,788 (wind blowing) 82 00:04:48,872 --> 00:04:53,001 (car horns honking) 83 00:04:53,084 --> 00:04:55,545 It feels very wrong to get to the end of this and be like, 84 00:04:55,587 --> 00:04:58,256 "Bob Durst, lone wolf, did terrible things, 85 00:04:58,298 --> 00:05:00,759 and then got in trouble for it." 86 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:02,594 'Cause that's not really what happened. 87 00:05:04,220 --> 00:05:05,805 What really happened was 88 00:05:05,889 --> 00:05:08,224 Bob Durst did some terrible things 89 00:05:08,266 --> 00:05:10,685 and a whole lot of other people helped him 90 00:05:10,769 --> 00:05:14,606 a dozen different ways to avoid trouble. 91 00:05:16,941 --> 00:05:19,110 That includes his friends, 92 00:05:19,194 --> 00:05:21,279 it includes his family, 93 00:05:21,321 --> 00:05:22,989 and the one person in his life 94 00:05:23,073 --> 00:05:26,242 who's not been in the spotlight, his wife Debrah. 95 00:05:26,284 --> 00:05:29,537 ♪♪ 96 00:05:30,163 --> 00:05:35,627 Debbie certainly had enough information 97 00:05:37,003 --> 00:05:40,632 to understand that Bob 98 00:05:41,299 --> 00:05:43,510 had likely engaged 99 00:05:43,593 --> 00:05:45,929 in very bad conduct. 100 00:05:45,970 --> 00:05:48,014 ♪♪ 101 00:05:48,098 --> 00:05:50,975 Andrew Jarecki: We were talking about other voices in your ear. 102 00:05:51,058 --> 00:05:54,312 Obviously, one of the loudest voices is Bob's wife. 103 00:05:54,396 --> 00:05:56,231 -Um-- -I'm not gonna talk about her. 104 00:05:56,314 --> 00:05:58,566 -Jarecki: You don't want to-- -I'm not gonna talk about her. 105 00:05:58,650 --> 00:06:02,237 That was clear when we agreed to this. 106 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,447 I am not gonna talk about her. 107 00:06:04,489 --> 00:06:06,658 (shutter snaps) 108 00:06:06,700 --> 00:06:10,912 Can you imagine if Debrah Lee could have testified? 109 00:06:11,621 --> 00:06:14,457 -Wouldn't you-- -(Jarecki speaking) 110 00:06:15,834 --> 00:06:19,963 Correct. And had a good excuse not to, as his wife. 111 00:06:20,463 --> 00:06:23,049 But wouldn't you love to see her on the stand? 112 00:06:26,428 --> 00:06:29,597 (ring tone) 113 00:06:31,474 --> 00:06:33,685 Jarecki: Hey, it's Jarecki. 114 00:06:35,687 --> 00:06:37,313 Ah... 115 00:06:37,939 --> 00:06:41,026 Alright, John. Thanks for letting me know. Bye. 116 00:06:42,277 --> 00:06:44,404 Bob Durst... is deceased. 117 00:06:44,487 --> 00:06:47,699 -(phone clatters) -Lisa DePaulo: Holy shit! 118 00:06:50,784 --> 00:06:53,038 (sighs) I thought he'd outlive us all. 119 00:06:53,121 --> 00:06:55,832 I really did. Wow. 120 00:06:55,874 --> 00:06:59,502 -What's the cause? -We don't know. 121 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,757 newscaster 1: This news from the West Coast. 122 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:07,302 Notorious real estate heir Robert Durst has died. 123 00:07:07,385 --> 00:07:09,596 newscaster 2: Authorities say he went into cardiac arrest 124 00:07:09,679 --> 00:07:11,890 while serving a life sentence. 125 00:07:11,973 --> 00:07:13,725 newscaster 3: For decades, many believed 126 00:07:13,808 --> 00:07:17,062 he used his fortune to dodge justice. 127 00:07:20,982 --> 00:07:24,402 Bagli: I really thought there was kind of an irony to it. 128 00:07:24,444 --> 00:07:26,988 That, once again, 129 00:07:27,072 --> 00:07:31,034 even in his death, Bob was escaping justice. 130 00:07:34,371 --> 00:07:37,624 newscaster: And in yet another stunning twist to this case, 131 00:07:37,707 --> 00:07:40,418 this recent conviction could be vacated 132 00:07:40,502 --> 00:07:42,921 because he died before his appeal. 133 00:07:42,962 --> 00:07:44,589 ♪♪ 134 00:07:44,673 --> 00:07:47,133 John Lewin: When Bob Durst died, 135 00:07:47,217 --> 00:07:49,511 under the rules in California, 136 00:07:50,261 --> 00:07:53,014 his conviction was abated, 137 00:07:53,098 --> 00:07:54,683 meaning it disappears, 138 00:07:54,766 --> 00:07:58,687 because it did not go through one round of appeal. 139 00:07:58,728 --> 00:08:00,188 ♪♪ 140 00:08:03,525 --> 00:08:06,778 -(breeze blowing) -(thunder rumbling) 141 00:08:09,447 --> 00:08:10,782 Jim McCormack: When Bob died, 142 00:08:10,824 --> 00:08:13,451 his conviction was basically written off the books, 143 00:08:13,535 --> 00:08:15,120 which, to me, is ludicrous. 144 00:08:15,203 --> 00:08:17,747 I mean, he was convicted. He had 12 people listen to, 145 00:08:17,789 --> 00:08:20,332 you know, many, many hours of testimony and witnesses. 146 00:08:20,417 --> 00:08:21,710 (wind chimes ringing) 147 00:08:21,793 --> 00:08:24,295 I want him to be held accountable. 148 00:08:24,796 --> 00:08:28,258 Liz McCormack: Obviously, Bob Durst died in prison. 149 00:08:28,299 --> 00:08:31,636 And I think it was important for my dad, of course, 150 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,347 to see some accountability come through. 151 00:08:36,224 --> 00:08:40,311 And so, it became more and more of a mission 152 00:08:40,395 --> 00:08:43,356 to bring at least some, some closure 153 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,234 or some justice to his family, 154 00:08:46,317 --> 00:08:48,611 and to Kathie specifically. 155 00:08:48,653 --> 00:08:51,656 (somber music playing) 156 00:08:52,824 --> 00:08:54,659 Jim McCormack: And so, the next thing I did, 157 00:08:54,701 --> 00:08:58,038 I got a hold of our lawyers and said, "Okay, now what?" 158 00:08:58,121 --> 00:09:01,207 -(quiet reporter chatter) -(shutters snapping) 159 00:09:01,291 --> 00:09:04,586 Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you so much for coming. 160 00:09:04,961 --> 00:09:08,089 You all could imagine how difficult it has been 161 00:09:08,173 --> 00:09:11,551 for the last 40 years to fight to get justice 162 00:09:11,634 --> 00:09:13,261 for Kathleen and for the family. 163 00:09:13,345 --> 00:09:14,804 (shutter snaps) 164 00:09:14,846 --> 00:09:17,057 newscaster: Kathie Durst's brother, Jim McCormack, 165 00:09:17,140 --> 00:09:20,769 is leading his family's fight for justice. 166 00:09:20,852 --> 00:09:23,188 Jim McCormack: My family and I have serious questions, 167 00:09:23,229 --> 00:09:25,357 and we deserve answers. 168 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,693 ♪♪ 169 00:09:33,114 --> 00:09:36,785 The only power they have at this point is a civil suit. 170 00:09:36,868 --> 00:09:39,412 And damn straight, they should. 171 00:09:39,496 --> 00:09:42,123 You know what? These poor people, 172 00:09:42,957 --> 00:09:45,418 they have been through hell! 173 00:09:45,502 --> 00:09:47,962 Liz McCormack: I know, for my dad, 174 00:09:48,046 --> 00:09:50,924 working now with these lawyers, 175 00:09:51,007 --> 00:09:54,219 he's doing the things that he wished maybe he had done 176 00:09:55,387 --> 00:09:56,554 when we were all younger. 177 00:09:56,596 --> 00:09:59,599 -(soft chatter) -(shutters snapping) 178 00:09:59,683 --> 00:10:03,061 Jarecki: So, who is your opponent 179 00:10:03,103 --> 00:10:06,898 in the wrongful death case if Bob is dead? 180 00:10:06,940 --> 00:10:08,983 So, it's, it's Bob's estate. 181 00:10:09,067 --> 00:10:11,027 ♪♪ 182 00:10:11,069 --> 00:10:13,196 (Jarecki speaking) 183 00:10:16,908 --> 00:10:19,744 Matthew Capozzoli: Bob Durst's wife, Debbie Charatan. 184 00:10:21,663 --> 00:10:24,290 We do intend to depose Debrah Charatan. 185 00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:27,419 The deposition 186 00:10:27,460 --> 00:10:29,087 is an opportunity 187 00:10:29,129 --> 00:10:31,381 to look a potential witness in the eye 188 00:10:31,464 --> 00:10:34,384 and find out what that person knows. 189 00:10:38,513 --> 00:10:41,307 (music slows down, stops) 190 00:10:42,225 --> 00:10:44,102 speaker: Okay, could you raise your right hand, please? 191 00:10:44,144 --> 00:10:45,770 Do you solemnly swear the testimony 192 00:10:45,812 --> 00:10:47,605 you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, 193 00:10:47,689 --> 00:10:49,607 -and nothing but the truth? -Yes. 194 00:10:49,649 --> 00:10:51,276 speaker: Thank you very much. 195 00:10:53,486 --> 00:10:55,155 Capozzoli: Good morning, Ms. Charatan. 196 00:10:55,238 --> 00:10:58,199 Robert Durst has been accused of at least three murders. 197 00:10:58,283 --> 00:11:01,786 What does it say about you that you stayed with him 198 00:11:01,828 --> 00:11:04,080 and supported him through all that? 199 00:11:05,373 --> 00:11:06,958 Well... 200 00:11:07,042 --> 00:11:09,669 Robert and I had a lot of history. 201 00:11:09,753 --> 00:11:11,713 And I had rough times in my life, 202 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:13,340 and he was there for me. 203 00:11:13,423 --> 00:11:16,092 And when he had rough times, I was there for him. 204 00:11:16,134 --> 00:11:18,303 It says that I'm a loyal person. 205 00:11:18,386 --> 00:11:20,805 (quiet music playing) 206 00:11:21,473 --> 00:11:24,184 Capozzoli: Do you recall ever speaking with Robert Durst 207 00:11:24,267 --> 00:11:26,311 about the possibility that he would be sued 208 00:11:26,353 --> 00:11:28,104 for wrongful death? 209 00:11:29,397 --> 00:11:31,399 Not really, no. 210 00:11:34,652 --> 00:11:38,573 (Durst speaking on tape) 211 00:11:38,782 --> 00:11:41,826 (Debrah Lee Charatan speaking on tape) 212 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,834 Capozzoli: Do you recall speaking with Robert Durst 213 00:11:49,918 --> 00:11:53,672 about the possibility he'd be sued by the McCormack family? 214 00:11:54,047 --> 00:11:56,341 No, because there were no lawsuits. 215 00:11:56,383 --> 00:11:57,842 It was just not... 216 00:12:00,303 --> 00:12:01,304 No. 217 00:12:03,306 --> 00:12:06,309 (Durst speaking on tape) 218 00:12:15,026 --> 00:12:16,945 (Charatan speaking on tape) 219 00:12:24,577 --> 00:12:25,912 Capozzoli: In prior testimony, 220 00:12:25,995 --> 00:12:28,915 you said you first met Robert Durst in 1987. 221 00:12:28,998 --> 00:12:32,210 -Was that statement accurate? -I believe so. 222 00:12:32,252 --> 00:12:34,504 Capozzoli: How did you meet Robert Durst? 223 00:12:35,714 --> 00:12:37,215 At a charity event. 224 00:12:37,257 --> 00:12:40,510 -(soft piano music playing) -(party chatter) 225 00:12:43,388 --> 00:12:46,224 Capozzoli: Would you say that was a turbulent time in your life? 226 00:12:46,266 --> 00:12:49,102 -Charatan: Yes. -Capozzoli: Why would you say that? 227 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:52,230 I was getting divorced. 228 00:12:53,356 --> 00:12:55,900 I was having problems with my business. 229 00:12:55,984 --> 00:12:57,777 (jaunty music playing) 230 00:12:57,861 --> 00:12:59,779 Bagli: By the time she met Bob, remember, 231 00:12:59,863 --> 00:13:02,991 she's had this 15 minutes of fame 232 00:13:03,074 --> 00:13:05,952 with her all-female real estate firm. 233 00:13:06,703 --> 00:13:09,914 (news fanfare playing) 234 00:13:11,541 --> 00:13:12,751 Our spotlight this morning 235 00:13:12,834 --> 00:13:15,003 is on three American success stories. 236 00:13:15,086 --> 00:13:18,340 First is Debrah Charatan-Berger, who lives in New York City. 237 00:13:18,423 --> 00:13:20,425 Her line is commercial real estate. 238 00:13:21,259 --> 00:13:23,011 Charatan-Berger: I believe that if I help enough people 239 00:13:23,094 --> 00:13:24,888 get what they want, I'll get what I want. 240 00:13:24,929 --> 00:13:26,723 So I never really focused on myself, 241 00:13:26,765 --> 00:13:28,641 or the obstacles, or the difficulties. 242 00:13:28,725 --> 00:13:29,684 I just forged ahead. 243 00:13:29,768 --> 00:13:31,102 ♪♪ 244 00:13:31,186 --> 00:13:33,980 Jennifer Cherney: She wanted control, no question. 245 00:13:34,064 --> 00:13:36,649 -And we were naive. -(muffled chatter) 246 00:13:36,733 --> 00:13:40,362 We didn't know of the real world. 247 00:13:41,488 --> 00:13:44,366 And she thought she could take advantage of that. 248 00:13:44,449 --> 00:13:46,659 I just really had the drive and the motivation to succeed. 249 00:13:46,743 --> 00:13:49,913 I really wanted to succeed. I really wanted to earn money. 250 00:13:49,954 --> 00:13:53,124 Cherney: And at a certain point, 251 00:13:53,208 --> 00:13:55,794 she decided that she didn't need to pay people. 252 00:13:55,835 --> 00:13:57,462 ♪♪ 253 00:13:57,545 --> 00:14:01,424 Bagli: She was stiffing one agent after another 254 00:14:01,466 --> 00:14:04,469 for their commission, their livelihood. 255 00:14:04,552 --> 00:14:08,098 (printer clicking, whirring) 256 00:14:08,139 --> 00:14:10,975 So the lawsuits piled up. 257 00:14:12,811 --> 00:14:15,980 And finally, rather than paying settlements, 258 00:14:16,064 --> 00:14:18,650 Debrah filed for bankruptcy. 259 00:14:20,902 --> 00:14:24,239 So, her world is 260 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:25,824 really in turmoil, 261 00:14:25,907 --> 00:14:28,993 and she needs help. 262 00:14:29,077 --> 00:14:32,330 -(ominous music playing) -(quiet party chatter) 263 00:14:33,123 --> 00:14:36,668 Nick Chavin: Bob and I were at a charity thing. 264 00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:38,670 Debrah must've spotted him from afar 265 00:14:38,753 --> 00:14:40,505 and had the whole thing planned out. 266 00:14:40,588 --> 00:14:43,425 -(soft piano music playing) -She just came up to us. 267 00:14:43,508 --> 00:14:44,634 "Hi, Nick." 268 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:47,429 Probably the first time she was ever friendly to me. 269 00:14:48,888 --> 00:14:51,349 And I introduced them. 270 00:14:53,518 --> 00:14:56,479 I don't know for how long she had it in mind to marry Bob, 271 00:14:56,521 --> 00:14:59,983 but she had it in mind wanting to be close to his money. 272 00:15:01,401 --> 00:15:02,736 (shutter snaps) 273 00:15:02,819 --> 00:15:05,196 Bagli: In those early days, 274 00:15:05,238 --> 00:15:07,407 their relationship flourished. 275 00:15:07,490 --> 00:15:12,203 Bob gets her into her lifelong object of desire, 276 00:15:12,287 --> 00:15:14,873 an apartment on 5th Avenue. 277 00:15:15,582 --> 00:15:18,877 Bob helps her buy a house out in the Hamptons, 278 00:15:18,918 --> 00:15:21,087 where all the real estate moguls 279 00:15:21,171 --> 00:15:24,215 -spend their summer weekends. -(seagulls cawing) 280 00:15:24,299 --> 00:15:28,553 Bob is constantly helping Debbie 281 00:15:29,054 --> 00:15:32,223 with what he can provide. 282 00:15:32,557 --> 00:15:33,892 Money. 283 00:15:33,975 --> 00:15:35,894 (ominous music playing) 284 00:15:35,977 --> 00:15:38,605 Someone says to you, "Hey, 285 00:15:39,898 --> 00:15:42,233 "I know this great guy. 286 00:15:43,693 --> 00:15:47,113 "Gonna inherit hundreds of millions of dollars. 287 00:15:48,365 --> 00:15:50,367 "There's just one little thing. 288 00:15:51,576 --> 00:15:53,536 "His first wife disappeared, and they think 289 00:15:53,578 --> 00:15:54,829 he might've killed her." 290 00:15:55,497 --> 00:15:58,333 I don't know many women that would say, 291 00:15:58,708 --> 00:16:01,419 "Eh, I don't mind. (laughs) 292 00:16:01,503 --> 00:16:03,171 Fix me up." 293 00:16:04,381 --> 00:16:08,426 Capozzoli: When you were meeting and dating him, 294 00:16:08,468 --> 00:16:11,554 did you ever talk about what happened to Kathie Durst? 295 00:16:14,224 --> 00:16:15,809 Once. 296 00:16:15,892 --> 00:16:18,937 ♪♪ 297 00:16:18,978 --> 00:16:21,231 He came to my apartment 298 00:16:22,691 --> 00:16:25,443 and he brought me articles. 299 00:16:26,945 --> 00:16:29,614 I think he wanted to tell me about it 300 00:16:30,281 --> 00:16:32,450 before someone else did. 301 00:16:32,492 --> 00:16:35,120 (muffled chatter) 302 00:16:36,287 --> 00:16:37,580 Capozzoli: As you sit here today, 303 00:16:37,622 --> 00:16:41,292 do you think that Robert Durst killed Kathleen Durst? 304 00:16:41,334 --> 00:16:43,044 No. 305 00:16:43,753 --> 00:16:46,131 Capozzoli: Did he ever tell you what happened to Kathie? 306 00:16:46,214 --> 00:16:49,050 Charatan: No, that just-- just that she disappeared. 307 00:16:52,095 --> 00:16:53,471 Capozzoli: The truth is that 308 00:16:53,555 --> 00:16:55,140 there was ample evidence 309 00:16:55,181 --> 00:16:58,101 of Durst's guilt in 1982. 310 00:16:58,143 --> 00:17:01,438 But, the influence and wealth 311 00:17:01,479 --> 00:17:04,566 of the Durst family can't be ignored. 312 00:17:04,648 --> 00:17:06,108 (traffic noise) 313 00:17:06,151 --> 00:17:08,486 They own one of the largest real estate empires 314 00:17:08,528 --> 00:17:10,696 in New York City. 315 00:17:11,031 --> 00:17:12,991 Jim McCormack: When Kathie went missing, 316 00:17:13,074 --> 00:17:15,785 contact with the Durst family 317 00:17:15,827 --> 00:17:19,079 was zero. Zero. 318 00:17:19,164 --> 00:17:20,790 I mean, this is my brother-in-law, 319 00:17:20,832 --> 00:17:23,292 my sister's father-in-law, 320 00:17:23,335 --> 00:17:26,171 and my mother's contemporary. 321 00:17:26,212 --> 00:17:27,797 Seymour should've picked up a phone 322 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:29,341 and called Ann McCormack and said, 323 00:17:29,424 --> 00:17:31,509 "I have the resources and the influence and blah blah. 324 00:17:31,593 --> 00:17:35,221 What do you need?" Zero. You know why? 325 00:17:36,264 --> 00:17:37,849 I believe that he knew. 326 00:17:37,891 --> 00:17:40,226 ♪♪ 327 00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:42,479 He knew what his son had done. 328 00:17:44,356 --> 00:17:46,524 Robert Abrams: In 1982, the Durst family 329 00:17:46,608 --> 00:17:49,152 did not offer to cooperate with the police 330 00:17:49,194 --> 00:17:52,197 and did nothing to look for Kathie. 331 00:17:52,238 --> 00:17:53,698 speaker: Can you raise your right hand, please? 332 00:17:53,782 --> 00:17:55,533 Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about... 333 00:17:55,617 --> 00:17:58,328 Abrams: But this lawsuit finally gives us the opportunity 334 00:17:58,370 --> 00:18:00,372 to force them to testify 335 00:18:00,455 --> 00:18:03,333 and explain why they never came forward. 336 00:18:04,376 --> 00:18:06,503 Abrams: Uh, good morning, Mr. Durst. 337 00:18:06,544 --> 00:18:09,798 It's been 40-plus years to get to this point 338 00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:13,134 and this is the first time 339 00:18:13,218 --> 00:18:15,470 you're actually having a conversation 340 00:18:15,553 --> 00:18:19,724 with Kathie's family. Why did it take 40 years? 341 00:18:21,685 --> 00:18:23,478 I have no idea. 342 00:18:23,561 --> 00:18:26,856 ♪♪ 343 00:18:26,898 --> 00:18:28,191 Abrams: Mr. Durst, why don't you tell us 344 00:18:28,233 --> 00:18:30,402 who your siblings are? Who's the oldest? 345 00:18:31,569 --> 00:18:33,154 -Tom Durst: Robert. -Abrams: And then? 346 00:18:33,238 --> 00:18:35,073 -Tom Durst: Douglas. -Abrams: And after Doug-- 347 00:18:35,156 --> 00:18:37,242 Tom Durst: Wendy, me-- Tom. 348 00:18:38,410 --> 00:18:39,911 Liz McCormack: There's a lot of talk about 349 00:18:39,994 --> 00:18:42,372 his family and how they... 350 00:18:42,414 --> 00:18:45,792 they ignored what happened to her and how they... 351 00:18:45,875 --> 00:18:47,168 they had all this power, 352 00:18:47,252 --> 00:18:49,212 and they could've done something. But, 353 00:18:49,254 --> 00:18:50,714 I also think it's important to talk about 354 00:18:50,755 --> 00:18:53,508 how they could've done something before she disappeared, 355 00:18:53,550 --> 00:18:55,218 you know? I mean, 356 00:18:56,219 --> 00:18:57,846 they knew. 357 00:18:58,847 --> 00:19:02,934 Abrams: You were aware that Bob was a violent person, correct? 358 00:19:03,018 --> 00:19:05,937 I was aware of it... 359 00:19:06,021 --> 00:19:10,400 since I was 4 years old, yes. 360 00:19:10,442 --> 00:19:13,153 -(curious music playing) -(car rattling) 361 00:19:13,236 --> 00:19:14,612 (kids chattering) 362 00:19:14,654 --> 00:19:18,324 Tom Durst: My first memory of Bob is him hitting me. 363 00:19:18,408 --> 00:19:20,618 I was sitting in the hallway on the carpet. 364 00:19:20,702 --> 00:19:22,203 (toy clicking) 365 00:19:22,287 --> 00:19:24,456 He walked by and hit me. 366 00:19:24,539 --> 00:19:27,792 He was trying to kill me from the day I arrived. 367 00:19:28,668 --> 00:19:31,796 Abrams: And I assume you told your father? 368 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,802 Tom Durst: I doubt it. My father was like a visiting duke. 369 00:19:38,636 --> 00:19:41,931 I didn't see him very often. I probably told the governess, 370 00:19:41,973 --> 00:19:44,017 who may well have told my father. 371 00:19:44,768 --> 00:19:47,771 Capozzoli: Do you recall the first time you met Kathie? 372 00:19:47,812 --> 00:19:50,982 -Yes. -Capozzoli: What was your initial impression of her? 373 00:19:51,066 --> 00:19:53,318 Wendy Durst Kreeger: I liked Kathie. 374 00:19:53,401 --> 00:19:55,153 We were hopeful that 375 00:19:55,195 --> 00:19:58,156 she could help turn him around. (weak laugh) 376 00:19:58,239 --> 00:20:01,242 (somber music playing) 377 00:20:01,284 --> 00:20:03,244 Jim McCormack: Kathie had entered a promising life 378 00:20:03,328 --> 00:20:06,498 that very quickly degraded into a terrible, 379 00:20:06,581 --> 00:20:10,251 terrible, abusive relationship. 380 00:20:11,753 --> 00:20:13,672 Tom Durst: I was at a cousin's wedding. 381 00:20:13,755 --> 00:20:16,549 She said, "He hit me," and then walked away. 382 00:20:17,050 --> 00:20:19,344 Abrams: Did you confront Bob about that? 383 00:20:19,427 --> 00:20:22,180 -Tom Durst: Me? Confront Bob? -Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. 384 00:20:22,222 --> 00:20:24,265 -Tom Durst: No. -Abrams: Why not? 385 00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:28,978 Tom Durst: He's a monster. I never confronted Bob about anything. 386 00:20:30,105 --> 00:20:32,857 -Douglas Durst: I knew that they had fights. -(muffled slap) 387 00:20:34,234 --> 00:20:37,696 And he was seeing other women. 388 00:20:38,655 --> 00:20:40,532 Abrams: Did you ever speak to Bob 389 00:20:40,573 --> 00:20:42,909 and ask him why he was physically abusing his wife? 390 00:20:42,992 --> 00:20:44,619 No. 391 00:20:47,247 --> 00:20:49,165 Lewin: I never expect 392 00:20:49,207 --> 00:20:53,169 a family member to cooperate, 393 00:20:53,211 --> 00:20:55,714 to turn in, to... 394 00:20:56,381 --> 00:21:00,051 provide evidence involving their son, 395 00:21:00,135 --> 00:21:02,345 their father, their brother, et cetera. 396 00:21:04,097 --> 00:21:07,350 But this was a very unusual case. 397 00:21:08,101 --> 00:21:10,353 ♪♪ 398 00:21:13,189 --> 00:21:15,442 (insects chirping) 399 00:21:15,525 --> 00:21:18,028 What do you prefer? Do you prefer Mr. Durst? Tom? 400 00:21:18,069 --> 00:21:20,739 -Tom Durst: Tom is good. -Lewin: Tom is good. Okay. 401 00:21:20,822 --> 00:21:22,866 So, let me ask you, Tom. 402 00:21:22,907 --> 00:21:24,909 Kathie disappears 403 00:21:24,993 --> 00:21:28,288 on Sunday, January 31, 1982. 404 00:21:28,747 --> 00:21:30,874 I know that there was a meeting 405 00:21:30,915 --> 00:21:34,419 the same week that Kathie disappeared 406 00:21:34,461 --> 00:21:38,089 on February 3rd, which would've been Wednesday. 407 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,054 Tom Durst: Right. The Durst Organization met once a month. 408 00:21:46,348 --> 00:21:48,641 My sister called me from the meeting, 409 00:21:48,725 --> 00:21:52,145 and she's very upset about Kathie being missing. 410 00:21:53,104 --> 00:21:56,232 Capozzoli: Did you ever discuss Kathie's disappearance 411 00:21:56,274 --> 00:21:58,526 with your other brothers? 412 00:21:59,152 --> 00:22:01,488 With Tom. 413 00:22:01,571 --> 00:22:02,781 Tom Durst: I remember her saying, 414 00:22:02,822 --> 00:22:04,282 "Shouldn't we be putting up posters? 415 00:22:04,366 --> 00:22:05,742 "Shouldn't we be doing something? 416 00:22:05,784 --> 00:22:08,286 "We're not doing anything! Kathie's missing, 417 00:22:08,370 --> 00:22:10,747 and we're having a meeting." 418 00:22:12,332 --> 00:22:15,960 Then, she says, "Bob showed up to the meeting 419 00:22:16,002 --> 00:22:18,129 wearing muddy boots." 420 00:22:18,171 --> 00:22:20,006 ♪♪ 421 00:22:20,090 --> 00:22:23,510 That really stuck in her mind. Muddy boots. 422 00:22:24,969 --> 00:22:26,137 Wendy was panicked. 423 00:22:26,179 --> 00:22:29,140 Wendy thought there was something bad had happened. 424 00:22:29,182 --> 00:22:31,976 Lewin: Meaning she's associating Bob's muddy boots 425 00:22:32,018 --> 00:22:34,145 -with Kathie's disappearance? -Tom Durst: Correct. 426 00:22:34,187 --> 00:22:37,440 (quiet footsteps) 427 00:22:39,484 --> 00:22:42,070 Capozzoli: Many people believe that Robert 428 00:22:42,153 --> 00:22:44,864 disposed of Kathie's body in the Pine Barrens in New Jersey. 429 00:22:44,948 --> 00:22:46,616 (wind blowing) 430 00:22:46,658 --> 00:22:51,037 Which is like a sandy forest. 431 00:22:51,121 --> 00:22:53,915 And we know Bob was in the area because of these collect calls 432 00:22:53,998 --> 00:22:56,418 that he made from the next town over. 433 00:22:59,295 --> 00:23:00,255 (hangs up) 434 00:23:00,338 --> 00:23:03,550 (thunder rumbles) 435 00:23:06,177 --> 00:23:07,971 Abrams: Your brother Tom testified 436 00:23:08,013 --> 00:23:11,891 there was a meeting in the Durst Organization offices 437 00:23:11,975 --> 00:23:15,687 where you told him Robert was in muddy boots. 438 00:23:15,729 --> 00:23:17,981 -Do you recall that? -No. 439 00:23:18,690 --> 00:23:21,026 Abrams: You don't recall seeing Robert in muddy boots? 440 00:23:21,109 --> 00:23:22,527 No. 441 00:23:22,819 --> 00:23:24,362 Capozzoli: We have one sibling 442 00:23:24,446 --> 00:23:27,365 saying that a few days after Kathie disappeared, 443 00:23:27,407 --> 00:23:29,951 Robert was at the Durst family meeting 444 00:23:30,035 --> 00:23:32,120 dressed in muddy boots 445 00:23:32,203 --> 00:23:35,040 and another sibling saying that that never happened. 446 00:23:47,552 --> 00:23:49,888 (somber music continues) 447 00:24:04,361 --> 00:24:06,905 Abrams: You're telling me that a loved one is in trouble, 448 00:24:06,946 --> 00:24:08,531 and you know that there's a good possibility 449 00:24:08,573 --> 00:24:10,617 they might get murdered, your testimony today 450 00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:12,077 is you don't know what you would do? 451 00:24:12,118 --> 00:24:15,622 -Is that your testimony? -If I was asked that question now, 452 00:24:15,705 --> 00:24:18,083 I would go to the authorities. 453 00:24:18,166 --> 00:24:21,586 Then, I was a lot younger and stupider and-- 454 00:24:21,628 --> 00:24:23,213 Abrams: How old were you in 1982? 455 00:24:23,254 --> 00:24:26,800 Kreeger: I was 30-something. 456 00:24:29,094 --> 00:24:31,096 Abrams: Uh, why don't we go off the record, 457 00:24:31,179 --> 00:24:33,556 so she could fix her stuff, and then we'll come back on? 458 00:24:33,598 --> 00:24:36,726 -You need a couple of minutes? -I need some Tylenol 459 00:24:36,768 --> 00:24:40,021 because I have a splitting headache from this. 460 00:24:42,732 --> 00:24:46,361 Abrams: Given the fact that your brother was a violent person, 461 00:24:47,112 --> 00:24:50,740 did it strike you that maybe he did something to her? 462 00:24:50,782 --> 00:24:52,784 It struck me as a possibility, yes. 463 00:24:52,867 --> 00:24:55,203 Abrams: If it struck you as a possibility, 464 00:24:55,286 --> 00:24:57,622 is there a reason why you never reached out to the family 465 00:24:57,706 --> 00:25:00,542 and gave your condolences for what your brother did? 466 00:25:02,127 --> 00:25:05,213 I didn't know what my brother did, and... 467 00:25:07,132 --> 00:25:11,803 uh, I did not think it was my place to do that. 468 00:25:13,930 --> 00:25:15,515 Liz McCormack: I don't understand 469 00:25:15,598 --> 00:25:17,726 the callousness, 470 00:25:17,809 --> 00:25:20,729 the just complete emotional detachment 471 00:25:20,812 --> 00:25:24,816 from somebody who was so part of your life. 472 00:25:25,483 --> 00:25:28,778 Capozzoli: Instead of trying to protect the family business, 473 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:32,532 had the Durst family cooperated with police in 1982, 474 00:25:32,615 --> 00:25:34,492 Robert Durst could've been arrested 475 00:25:34,576 --> 00:25:36,870 for Kathie's murder at that time... 476 00:25:36,953 --> 00:25:37,662 (shutter snaps) 477 00:25:38,329 --> 00:25:41,249 ...and Susan Berman and Morris Black would still be alive. 478 00:25:44,336 --> 00:25:47,297 -(clapping) -(party chatter) 479 00:25:47,339 --> 00:25:51,343 (people cheering) 480 00:25:53,553 --> 00:25:55,263 Kreeger: I just wanted to say that 481 00:25:55,305 --> 00:25:57,182 it's been interesting, all of this. 482 00:25:57,223 --> 00:26:00,393 -(laughter) -Happy birthday. 483 00:26:00,477 --> 00:26:02,187 Thank you very much. 484 00:26:02,228 --> 00:26:04,272 (applause) 485 00:26:04,356 --> 00:26:08,193 Capozzoli: At that time, did you ever meet Robert's brother Douglas Durst? 486 00:26:08,234 --> 00:26:09,110 Yes. 487 00:26:09,694 --> 00:26:12,405 speaker: Tell us for the camera how you got all of the proclamations. 488 00:26:12,489 --> 00:26:15,533 -No. It's secret. -speaker: Come on, Douglas. (laughs) 489 00:26:15,617 --> 00:26:18,370 Abrams: How'd you feel about Debrah Charatan at that point in time? 490 00:26:18,453 --> 00:26:19,662 lawyer: Objection. 491 00:26:19,704 --> 00:26:22,791 You want me to tell you in front of her attorneys? 492 00:26:22,874 --> 00:26:24,459 -(lawyer laughs) -(jaunty music playing) 493 00:26:24,542 --> 00:26:27,545 Capozzoli: What was your first impression of Debrah Charatan? 494 00:26:28,213 --> 00:26:31,883 -I hated her. (laughs) -(Capozzoli laughs) 495 00:26:31,925 --> 00:26:35,178 (laughter, quiet party chatter) 496 00:26:36,054 --> 00:26:38,515 Charatan: I think that everybody in the family 497 00:26:38,556 --> 00:26:40,809 thought I was after him for his money. 498 00:26:43,228 --> 00:26:45,230 I thought it might be... 499 00:26:46,564 --> 00:26:48,441 something of a business relationship. 500 00:26:48,525 --> 00:26:51,569 ♪♪ 501 00:26:52,278 --> 00:26:55,198 Capozzoli: And were you surprised they got married? 502 00:26:55,657 --> 00:26:57,659 -Shocked. -(glass shatters) 503 00:26:57,742 --> 00:27:01,204 -(beep, snap) -(flash capacitor whining) 504 00:27:01,913 --> 00:27:04,416 The timing of Robert Durst's marriage 505 00:27:04,499 --> 00:27:07,919 to Debbie Charatan is extremely suspicious. 506 00:27:08,003 --> 00:27:08,962 ♪♪ 507 00:27:09,045 --> 00:27:11,214 Are you aware that in 2000, 508 00:27:11,256 --> 00:27:13,758 the Westchester County district attorney 509 00:27:13,842 --> 00:27:15,885 reopened its investigation into the disappearance 510 00:27:15,927 --> 00:27:18,680 -of Kathleen Durst? -Yes. 511 00:27:36,906 --> 00:27:38,992 He said, "Do you wanna get married?" 512 00:27:39,075 --> 00:27:41,119 You know, that kind of thing. You know? 513 00:27:41,161 --> 00:27:43,621 -Capozzoli: And you said yes? -I said yes. 514 00:27:43,705 --> 00:27:45,415 Capozzoli: Why did you say yes? 515 00:27:45,498 --> 00:27:47,167 -Because he asked. -(Capozzoli laughs) 516 00:27:47,250 --> 00:27:49,294 No one else was asking. 517 00:27:52,213 --> 00:27:55,050 Capozzoli: After you get married, did you have a wedding reception? 518 00:27:56,092 --> 00:27:57,844 -No. -Capozzoli: Did you and Robert Durst 519 00:27:57,927 --> 00:28:00,764 -spend your wedding night together? -No. 520 00:28:03,141 --> 00:28:05,894 So they get married on the 11th. 521 00:28:05,977 --> 00:28:07,228 (laughs) And December 12th, 522 00:28:07,312 --> 00:28:10,774 he buys a one-way ticket to California 523 00:28:10,815 --> 00:28:12,567 to go kill Susan Berman. 524 00:28:12,650 --> 00:28:14,903 (plane roaring) 525 00:28:14,986 --> 00:28:17,864 -(muffled gunshot) -(dull whooshing) 526 00:28:17,947 --> 00:28:20,784 Capozzoli: What was Susan Berman's personality like? 527 00:28:22,494 --> 00:28:24,371 Hm... 528 00:28:24,454 --> 00:28:26,039 Manic. 529 00:28:28,291 --> 00:28:31,461 Capozzoli: Did you consider Susan Berman to be your friend? 530 00:28:31,503 --> 00:28:33,171 No. 531 00:28:34,297 --> 00:28:38,009 She just did not like Susan for whatever reason. 532 00:28:39,552 --> 00:28:42,305 ♪♪ 533 00:28:42,347 --> 00:28:44,265 Then, after Christmas, 534 00:28:44,349 --> 00:28:47,852 Nick came into my office. All he said was 535 00:28:47,936 --> 00:28:51,189 Susan had been shot in the back of the head. 536 00:28:51,272 --> 00:28:52,691 And he couldn't talk. He just-- 537 00:28:52,774 --> 00:28:54,609 He was walking out of the room, 538 00:28:54,693 --> 00:28:55,985 and I said-- and I-- 539 00:28:56,027 --> 00:28:59,280 instinctively, I said, "Bob did it." 540 00:28:59,322 --> 00:29:01,908 Terry was quick to recognize 541 00:29:01,991 --> 00:29:04,786 that the only person that possibly could have killed 542 00:29:04,869 --> 00:29:05,829 Susan was Bob. 543 00:29:05,870 --> 00:29:07,872 (tense music playing) 544 00:29:07,914 --> 00:29:09,082 Terry Chavin: And then I had a choice. 545 00:29:09,165 --> 00:29:11,209 I could either never call Debrah again, 546 00:29:11,292 --> 00:29:14,879 or I could call her and see what she says. 547 00:29:14,921 --> 00:29:17,257 I wanted to hear from her. 548 00:29:19,551 --> 00:29:21,052 Jarecki: And you called her? 549 00:29:21,094 --> 00:29:23,722 Terry Chavin: I called her, and it was just stunning to me. 550 00:29:23,805 --> 00:29:26,933 This is a time when you're supposed to be 551 00:29:27,017 --> 00:29:29,936 not criticizing the dead person. 552 00:29:30,020 --> 00:29:31,896 She started talking about 553 00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:35,066 how Susan was not loyal to Bob. 554 00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:39,946 It was amazing she would just launch right into that. 555 00:29:41,948 --> 00:29:43,575 Capozzoli: As you sit here today, do you believe 556 00:29:43,658 --> 00:29:46,036 that Robert Durst killed Susan Berman? 557 00:29:46,077 --> 00:29:48,246 I respect what the jury said. 558 00:29:48,329 --> 00:29:50,457 ♪♪ 559 00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:53,752 Capozzoli: But do you personally believe that he did it? 560 00:29:53,835 --> 00:29:57,088 Well, I respect what the jury said, so... 561 00:29:59,132 --> 00:30:00,759 There were two people in his life 562 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,720 who he was close enough to 563 00:30:03,762 --> 00:30:06,389 who could be trouble. 564 00:30:06,431 --> 00:30:08,475 Debrah Lee was one. 565 00:30:09,351 --> 00:30:12,187 Susan was another. 566 00:30:12,270 --> 00:30:15,315 He marries one and kills the other. 567 00:30:16,775 --> 00:30:18,360 Problem solved. 568 00:30:18,443 --> 00:30:21,654 (music fades out) 569 00:30:21,738 --> 00:30:24,949 (quiet chatter) 570 00:30:27,202 --> 00:30:28,578 Today, we had a call conference 571 00:30:28,620 --> 00:30:31,164 which was called a discovery conference. 572 00:30:31,247 --> 00:30:33,750 Each side is supposed to exchange 573 00:30:33,792 --> 00:30:35,627 information and documents. 574 00:30:35,710 --> 00:30:37,128 (cart squeaking) 575 00:30:37,212 --> 00:30:39,255 Capozzoli: It's a fact-finding exercise. 576 00:30:41,424 --> 00:30:45,261 You also get a sense of what the defense strategy might be. 577 00:30:46,471 --> 00:30:50,058 Jarecki: And what's been the essence of their response? 578 00:30:50,141 --> 00:30:52,686 This is a sworn statement 579 00:30:52,769 --> 00:30:54,938 signed by Debrah Charatan. 580 00:30:55,230 --> 00:30:58,525 "I currently estimate the assets of Bob's estate 581 00:30:58,608 --> 00:31:00,193 "to be under $100,000, 582 00:31:00,276 --> 00:31:04,114 with debts of approximately $250,000." 583 00:31:06,032 --> 00:31:09,035 That's an interesting development 584 00:31:09,119 --> 00:31:12,080 because when Bob was arrested in New Orleans 585 00:31:12,163 --> 00:31:14,207 in 2015, 586 00:31:14,290 --> 00:31:17,794 the police said that he was worth $100 million. 587 00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:19,671 ♪♪ 588 00:31:20,797 --> 00:31:23,174 Now, we're fairly certain 589 00:31:23,258 --> 00:31:25,927 that he didn't spend $100 million on his defense, 590 00:31:26,011 --> 00:31:27,721 so what happened? 591 00:31:27,804 --> 00:31:30,849 Abrams: So do you know what happened to all of his money? 592 00:31:30,932 --> 00:31:33,560 -He spent it. -Abrams: And how did he spend it? 593 00:31:34,894 --> 00:31:37,647 Think I know? I don't know. 594 00:31:52,287 --> 00:31:54,706 I believe that when Debrah Charatan says 595 00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:56,332 that Robert Durst's estate 596 00:31:56,374 --> 00:31:58,418 does not have a lot of money in it, 597 00:31:58,501 --> 00:32:01,379 it's technically true. 598 00:32:01,421 --> 00:32:04,090 But that's only a small part of the story. 599 00:32:05,216 --> 00:32:07,010 The vast majority of Bob's money 600 00:32:07,052 --> 00:32:09,054 is in a trust. 601 00:32:09,888 --> 00:32:12,974 Abrams: Would you agree with me that there was more than $100,000 602 00:32:13,058 --> 00:32:15,268 in the trust when Robert died? 603 00:32:16,728 --> 00:32:18,646 -Yes. -Abrams: Right. 604 00:32:18,730 --> 00:32:22,233 So, therefore, you didn't include the trust assets 605 00:32:22,317 --> 00:32:24,861 in the assets that were in his estate, correct? 606 00:32:24,903 --> 00:32:26,404 They don't belong to him. 607 00:32:26,446 --> 00:32:28,531 ♪♪ 608 00:32:28,573 --> 00:32:31,201 Abrams: The argument that she's making is that 609 00:32:31,242 --> 00:32:32,869 that money is trust money. 610 00:32:32,911 --> 00:32:34,662 It's not Robert's personal money, 611 00:32:34,746 --> 00:32:36,373 and it's not part of his estate. 612 00:32:37,582 --> 00:32:41,419 (Durst speaking on phone) 613 00:32:55,266 --> 00:32:57,936 (Charatan speaking on phone) 614 00:32:57,977 --> 00:32:59,646 (seagull cawing) 615 00:33:00,563 --> 00:33:03,441 Capozzoli: When you have the kind of resources 616 00:33:04,150 --> 00:33:06,319 that Robert Durst had, 617 00:33:06,403 --> 00:33:08,905 you have the ability to pay attorneys and accountants 618 00:33:08,947 --> 00:33:11,574 to structure your affairs in such a way 619 00:33:11,616 --> 00:33:13,785 as to limit your liability, so to speak. 620 00:33:16,121 --> 00:33:17,414 The way I understand it, 621 00:33:17,455 --> 00:33:19,874 and the way the lawyers explained to me, 622 00:33:19,916 --> 00:33:22,377 the trust is just a totally separate entity 623 00:33:22,460 --> 00:33:24,629 having nothing to do with Bob. 624 00:33:24,713 --> 00:33:26,756 -Charatan (on tape): Hi. -Durst (on tape): Hi. 625 00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:45,316 There's at least 626 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,318 tens of millions of dollars in that trust, 627 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,280 and we know that Debbie used some of that money 628 00:33:50,321 --> 00:33:52,657 to grow her real estate business. 629 00:33:53,867 --> 00:33:55,827 Bagli: With the help of Bob's trust, 630 00:33:55,910 --> 00:33:58,038 Debbie goes from broker 631 00:33:58,121 --> 00:34:00,623 to buyer of real estate. 632 00:34:01,583 --> 00:34:04,085 Abrams: If you look at the buildings that BCB purchased, 633 00:34:04,169 --> 00:34:07,380 Bob's trust had a hand in over a dozen of them. 634 00:34:19,266 --> 00:34:21,186 She would buy up tenements, 635 00:34:21,268 --> 00:34:25,148 small buildings in Queens or in Brooklyn, 636 00:34:27,025 --> 00:34:29,402 fix them up, 637 00:34:29,485 --> 00:34:31,279 and then sell them at a profit. 638 00:34:31,696 --> 00:34:35,533 Now, sometimes this meant screwing with the tenants. 639 00:34:35,574 --> 00:34:38,370 Some tenants in Crown Heights are rallying for better rights 640 00:34:38,411 --> 00:34:40,205 and against gentrification. 641 00:34:40,288 --> 00:34:44,042 They say last year, a new owner bought the building, 642 00:34:44,083 --> 00:34:46,210 BCB Properties. 643 00:34:46,293 --> 00:34:48,338 And since then, they've been trying to buy out 644 00:34:48,380 --> 00:34:50,547 their apartments and push them out. 645 00:34:51,049 --> 00:34:54,135 Bagli: And some of the tenants said that Debrah ran her buildings 646 00:34:54,219 --> 00:34:56,262 like a slum lord. 647 00:34:58,390 --> 00:35:00,600 Capozzoli: How many properties would you say 648 00:35:00,684 --> 00:35:01,976 you've bought and sold 649 00:35:02,060 --> 00:35:04,562 since you started BCB Property Management? 650 00:35:04,646 --> 00:35:06,690 -I have no idea. -Capozzoli: I'm not gonna hold you to it. 651 00:35:06,773 --> 00:35:07,941 -More than 10? -No, I-- Oh yes. 652 00:35:08,024 --> 00:35:10,235 -Capozzoli: More than 20? -Yes. 653 00:35:11,778 --> 00:35:13,738 Capozzoli: More than 30? 654 00:35:13,822 --> 00:35:15,240 Perhaps. 655 00:35:15,281 --> 00:35:17,742 We know that Debrah Charatan went from having 656 00:35:17,826 --> 00:35:21,121 a very small real estate company to a real estate company 657 00:35:21,204 --> 00:35:23,998 that was doing hundreds of millions of dollars. 658 00:35:24,082 --> 00:35:27,293 ♪♪ 659 00:35:37,762 --> 00:35:41,891 Bagli: By this time, Debbie, his wife, 660 00:35:41,933 --> 00:35:44,728 had a lot of authority 661 00:35:44,769 --> 00:35:47,230 over Bob's finances, 662 00:35:47,272 --> 00:35:49,065 over his life. 663 00:35:49,733 --> 00:35:53,361 Sometimes, maybe more than he bargained for. 664 00:35:53,445 --> 00:35:55,488 Durst: Let me ask you something. 665 00:35:55,572 --> 00:35:59,492 So, the lawyers said the trustees will agree 666 00:35:59,576 --> 00:36:02,662 to pay for the defense. The question is, 667 00:36:02,746 --> 00:36:04,998 when are the trustees 668 00:36:05,081 --> 00:36:07,459 gonna start paying bills? 669 00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:09,085 Charatan: Well, the thing is, Bob, 670 00:36:09,127 --> 00:36:11,463 they wanna know, you know, basically how much 671 00:36:11,546 --> 00:36:13,381 and what the scope of work is. 672 00:36:13,465 --> 00:36:15,467 They're 100% behind you and your team and-- 673 00:36:15,508 --> 00:36:19,471 Okay, I love the fact that you're behind me 100%. 674 00:36:19,512 --> 00:36:22,599 I'd like them to pay the fucking bills. 675 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,226 Charatan: Bob, they have to know what they're paying for. 676 00:36:25,310 --> 00:36:27,562 Trust me, they will not let you down. 677 00:36:27,645 --> 00:36:29,814 -Trust me. I promise you that. -Okay. 678 00:36:29,856 --> 00:36:32,108 -Alright. That's all I wanna hear. -And I wouldn't let-- 679 00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:34,652 And I wouldn't let you down. 680 00:36:34,736 --> 00:36:36,321 Don't you know that? 681 00:36:36,404 --> 00:36:39,657 Durst: So, there's a whole 'nother viewpoint. 682 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,328 You're perceived as not wanting 683 00:36:43,411 --> 00:36:46,498 to spend money on my legal defense 684 00:36:46,539 --> 00:36:50,168 because it would decrease the amount in the trust, 685 00:36:50,210 --> 00:36:52,087 and you would inherit less. 686 00:36:52,170 --> 00:36:54,589 That is how you are perceived. 687 00:36:54,673 --> 00:36:56,841 Charatan: Who perceives me that way? 688 00:36:56,883 --> 00:36:59,386 Durst: Me. 689 00:36:59,469 --> 00:37:02,347 And I could just change my will 690 00:37:02,430 --> 00:37:04,933 and take you out of it. 691 00:37:05,016 --> 00:37:06,685 Bob, you know what? 692 00:37:06,768 --> 00:37:08,061 I'm done. 693 00:37:08,144 --> 00:37:10,522 I don't need you. I don't need this. 694 00:37:10,563 --> 00:37:13,233 I don't need any of it. I'm sorry you feel that way. 695 00:37:13,316 --> 00:37:16,194 -You are entitled to feel as you wish-- -No, I don't feel that way! 696 00:37:16,236 --> 00:37:18,363 -Yes, you do! Yes, you do! -I said it appeared 697 00:37:18,405 --> 00:37:20,532 -that that's the way it was going. -No, no, no... 698 00:37:20,573 --> 00:37:21,908 No, you know what? What you need to do 699 00:37:21,991 --> 00:37:25,537 is stay out of it. What you need to do is let the trustee, 700 00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:27,539 -let Mike-- -I need to stay out of it? 701 00:37:27,580 --> 00:37:29,541 -This is my life! -Just listen. Just listen. 702 00:37:29,624 --> 00:37:31,334 I'm gonna hang up the phone now, 703 00:37:31,376 --> 00:37:33,169 and I'm gonna say goodbye to you. 704 00:37:33,211 --> 00:37:34,462 It was nice knowing you-- 705 00:37:34,713 --> 00:37:37,966 -(stammering) -Will you stop it? It's my turn. 706 00:37:38,049 --> 00:37:39,801 -Let me finish. -Okay, you go. 707 00:37:39,884 --> 00:37:42,345 ♪♪ 708 00:37:42,387 --> 00:37:46,349 Um, what I wanna do is I wanna leave you my assets, 709 00:37:46,391 --> 00:37:49,728 all my assets, just the way it was 710 00:37:49,811 --> 00:37:51,229 before I was arrested, 711 00:37:51,271 --> 00:37:53,481 -and I wanna leave it like that. -Okay. 712 00:37:54,024 --> 00:37:57,610 -I think that's a smart thing to do. -Okay. Okay. 713 00:37:57,694 --> 00:37:59,195 Um... 714 00:37:59,237 --> 00:38:01,406 So, I love you. Bye. 715 00:38:01,448 --> 00:38:04,451 Okay, bye. (laughs) 716 00:38:04,993 --> 00:38:06,619 (hangs up) 717 00:38:06,703 --> 00:38:07,746 (hangs up) 718 00:38:09,247 --> 00:38:10,457 (inaudible) 719 00:38:11,207 --> 00:38:14,961 Capozzoli: This was the definition of a marriage of convenience. 720 00:38:16,254 --> 00:38:17,255 In fact, 721 00:38:17,297 --> 00:38:19,424 she loved someone else. 722 00:38:19,466 --> 00:38:22,218 (line ringing, beep) 723 00:38:22,260 --> 00:38:23,178 (Durst on phone) 724 00:38:23,595 --> 00:38:26,389 (Steven Holm on phone) 725 00:38:29,893 --> 00:38:31,478 (Holm laughs) 726 00:38:45,784 --> 00:38:46,701 (Charatan on phone) 727 00:38:48,787 --> 00:38:50,538 Capozzoli: Who was Steven Holm? 728 00:38:50,622 --> 00:38:53,333 Steven Holm was the man that I... 729 00:38:53,416 --> 00:38:55,126 live with... 730 00:38:55,210 --> 00:38:57,754 for about 15 years. 731 00:39:01,174 --> 00:39:04,636 Capozzoli: You had a romantic relationship with Steven Holm. Is that right? 732 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,137 That's right. 733 00:39:06,888 --> 00:39:09,974 They went to charity events. They went to social events. 734 00:39:10,058 --> 00:39:12,310 They were out publicly, holding themselves out 735 00:39:12,352 --> 00:39:13,812 as being husband and wife, 736 00:39:14,646 --> 00:39:17,482 all while she was still married to Bob Durst. 737 00:39:19,442 --> 00:39:22,070 Capozzoli: Did money play a role in your decision 738 00:39:22,153 --> 00:39:25,782 not to divorce Robert Durst and marry Steven Holm? 739 00:39:27,701 --> 00:39:29,285 I guess so. 740 00:39:29,327 --> 00:39:31,079 Capozzoli: How would-- How so? 741 00:39:32,163 --> 00:39:35,375 Well, Robert's trust... 742 00:39:36,918 --> 00:39:39,754 could-- I could only inherit the trust 743 00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:43,008 if I were married to him. 744 00:39:43,466 --> 00:39:48,013 And so, he preferred to stay the way we were. 745 00:39:48,054 --> 00:39:51,516 And I asked Steve, and he said it's fine with him. 746 00:39:52,225 --> 00:39:53,852 And so, we left it. 747 00:39:55,437 --> 00:39:56,688 Bagli: You have to ask yourself, 748 00:39:56,771 --> 00:39:59,524 what did Bob get out of his relationship with Debbie? 749 00:39:59,566 --> 00:40:01,067 'Cause Debbie got a lot. 750 00:40:01,151 --> 00:40:02,610 ♪♪ 751 00:40:02,694 --> 00:40:05,697 And so, I think that Bob got from Debbie 752 00:40:05,780 --> 00:40:09,784 some emotional support, unflagging loyalty. 753 00:40:10,410 --> 00:40:11,745 But, over time, 754 00:40:11,828 --> 00:40:14,914 the help becomes 755 00:40:14,998 --> 00:40:17,000 much more substantial, 756 00:40:17,709 --> 00:40:20,795 especially when Bob found himself in jail again. 757 00:40:33,641 --> 00:40:36,519 (Charatan on phone) 758 00:40:37,479 --> 00:40:38,897 (Durst on phone) 759 00:41:06,216 --> 00:41:07,258 (shutter snaps) 760 00:41:08,885 --> 00:41:09,719 (shutter snaps) 761 00:41:09,969 --> 00:41:12,055 Capozzoli: There were multiple occasions 762 00:41:12,097 --> 00:41:15,558 when Susan Giordano sent bills to Debrah Charatan 763 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,811 and Debrah Charatan paid those bills. 764 00:41:18,978 --> 00:41:20,855 (Charatan on phone) 765 00:41:27,445 --> 00:41:29,614 -(Durst on phone) -Charatan: You know? 766 00:41:29,656 --> 00:41:31,616 Because if she sent Susie money, 767 00:41:31,658 --> 00:41:34,577 it would look bad. It would be easy to trace. 768 00:41:34,619 --> 00:41:36,621 But by paying the bills directly, 769 00:41:36,663 --> 00:41:38,123 it would be harder to track down. 770 00:41:39,874 --> 00:41:42,502 (Durst on phone) 771 00:41:58,852 --> 00:42:00,687 Capozzoli: By the time Susie shows up in court, 772 00:42:00,770 --> 00:42:02,939 she's gotten hundreds of thousands of dollars 773 00:42:03,023 --> 00:42:04,315 from Bob or Debbie. 774 00:42:04,399 --> 00:42:07,152 speaker: For the record, please state your first and last name. 775 00:42:08,611 --> 00:42:10,572 Lewin: Ma'am, do you consider yourself, 776 00:42:10,655 --> 00:42:14,659 as you sit up there today, to be an unbiased witness? 777 00:42:14,701 --> 00:42:16,494 Giordano: I would-- 778 00:42:16,578 --> 00:42:19,664 I am unbiased, yes. I am totally... 779 00:42:20,999 --> 00:42:22,000 unbiased. 780 00:42:22,042 --> 00:42:23,793 ♪♪ 781 00:42:23,835 --> 00:42:25,795 Capozzoli: And Susan Giordano was not the only witness 782 00:42:25,837 --> 00:42:28,631 in Bob's past that Debbie helped out with. 783 00:42:28,673 --> 00:42:31,343 Lewin: Good afternoon. 784 00:42:32,135 --> 00:42:33,094 Mr. Altman, 785 00:42:33,219 --> 00:42:35,972 do you believe that your friendship with Mr. Durst 786 00:42:36,014 --> 00:42:38,099 in any way affects your testimony? 787 00:42:38,183 --> 00:42:40,101 No. 788 00:42:57,202 --> 00:42:59,204 Lewin: In 2003, 789 00:42:59,287 --> 00:43:03,291 how was it that Mr. Durst ended up giving you 790 00:43:03,708 --> 00:43:07,629 a $40,000 or $50,000 Lexus to you and your wife? 791 00:43:07,712 --> 00:43:10,840 He wanted to do something nice for us. 792 00:43:11,132 --> 00:43:13,718 (Charatan on phone) 793 00:43:14,010 --> 00:43:16,221 (Durst on phone) 794 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:21,726 (beep) 795 00:43:23,561 --> 00:43:24,562 (Durst on phone) 796 00:43:24,729 --> 00:43:25,814 (Charatan on phone) 797 00:43:29,943 --> 00:43:32,112 Bob was very concerned about Doug Oliver 798 00:43:32,195 --> 00:43:34,656 not coming to his aid and helping him 799 00:43:34,739 --> 00:43:37,283 and had Debbie call Doug Oliver. 800 00:43:38,493 --> 00:43:40,245 (Durst on phone) 801 00:43:54,092 --> 00:43:56,594 ♪♪ 802 00:43:56,678 --> 00:43:58,263 Dick DeGuerin: Now, let's talk just a little bit 803 00:43:58,346 --> 00:44:00,765 about your knowledge of Kathie. 804 00:44:00,807 --> 00:44:02,517 Did Kathie use cocaine? 805 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,645 (Doug Oliver speaking) 806 00:44:05,729 --> 00:44:07,605 DeGuerin: Did you ever get calls 807 00:44:07,647 --> 00:44:09,649 from Kathie seeking cocaine? 808 00:44:09,733 --> 00:44:11,359 Oliver: Yes. 809 00:44:14,279 --> 00:44:16,239 All of these people 810 00:44:16,281 --> 00:44:19,409 who got entangled in his web. 811 00:44:19,451 --> 00:44:21,119 ♪♪ 812 00:44:21,745 --> 00:44:24,372 "Do I protect Bob because he's so good to me? 813 00:44:26,291 --> 00:44:29,461 "Do I protect Bobby because I'm just a loyal person? 814 00:44:32,881 --> 00:44:35,300 "Do I protect Bobby 'cause I have an... 815 00:44:35,342 --> 00:44:38,386 inch of doubt that maybe he didn't do this?" 816 00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:40,096 ♪♪ 817 00:44:41,514 --> 00:44:44,934 You have to say, "What price is my soul?" 818 00:44:44,976 --> 00:44:47,812 Right? "What price is my soul?" 819 00:44:47,854 --> 00:44:51,983 -(breeze blowing) -(birds chirping) 820 00:44:54,235 --> 00:44:56,613 Jarecki: After everything you've done for Bob, 821 00:44:56,654 --> 00:44:58,490 how much you've been there for him, 822 00:44:58,573 --> 00:45:00,617 do you blame yourself for anything? 823 00:45:00,950 --> 00:45:03,161 You know, I-I've done... 824 00:45:03,578 --> 00:45:06,790 Not that I expected anything in return, 825 00:45:07,457 --> 00:45:10,460 but anything he's ever asked, I did. 826 00:45:10,502 --> 00:45:11,586 I helped. 827 00:45:11,670 --> 00:45:15,840 (soft music playing) 828 00:45:20,512 --> 00:45:22,305 And even now, even today, 829 00:45:22,347 --> 00:45:25,350 after all this hassle you've been put through 830 00:45:25,433 --> 00:45:27,102 and after watching him confess 831 00:45:27,185 --> 00:45:30,438 and after watching the jury convict him... 832 00:45:32,190 --> 00:45:36,069 No, and I-I do. And I say that... 833 00:45:36,152 --> 00:45:39,823 It's really hard to realize that all that evidence, yes. 834 00:45:39,864 --> 00:45:42,534 And it does point to that. And... 835 00:45:42,575 --> 00:45:44,452 What's stopping you from saying, 836 00:45:44,494 --> 00:45:46,079 "I guess he murdered Susan Berman"? 837 00:45:46,705 --> 00:45:48,164 What... 838 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,959 I don't know! I don't know. 839 00:45:51,042 --> 00:45:53,378 But do I know in my heart? Yes. 840 00:45:53,461 --> 00:45:56,548 But to hear yourself say it also makes it like, 841 00:45:56,589 --> 00:45:58,174 "Wow, that could be really real." 842 00:45:58,216 --> 00:46:00,468 You know? Even though you know it. 843 00:46:02,220 --> 00:46:04,681 DePaulo: He kinda zeroed in on people 844 00:46:04,723 --> 00:46:07,392 who would be easily manipulated. 845 00:46:08,226 --> 00:46:10,395 And they were. And they kind of-- 846 00:46:10,478 --> 00:46:13,189 You know, I mean, look at with the juror in Texas! 847 00:46:13,523 --> 00:46:14,566 (Jarecki speaking) 848 00:46:14,649 --> 00:46:15,734 DePaulo: Yeah, the one who 849 00:46:15,817 --> 00:46:18,236 Bobby gave a job to afterwards. 850 00:46:19,946 --> 00:46:22,323 Like, that was nuts. 851 00:46:22,782 --> 00:46:25,201 (Jarecki and Chris Lovell on phone) 852 00:46:29,539 --> 00:46:31,082 (phone hangs up) 853 00:46:31,708 --> 00:46:33,251 Hello? 854 00:46:33,335 --> 00:46:34,419 ♪♪ 855 00:46:34,753 --> 00:46:38,757 Abrams: Did you ever help your wife clean Bob's apartment? 856 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,800 -No. -Abrams: Were you ever present 857 00:46:40,884 --> 00:46:43,094 when she was cleaning the apartment? 858 00:46:47,098 --> 00:46:48,558 No. 859 00:46:49,476 --> 00:46:52,520 (inaudible) 860 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,231 Abrams: Isn't it true while Durst was on the run, 861 00:46:55,273 --> 00:46:56,608 he asked you to go to the apartment 862 00:46:56,649 --> 00:46:58,234 and get some stuff for him? 863 00:47:03,114 --> 00:47:04,741 Abrams: Isn't it true that you were there 864 00:47:04,783 --> 00:47:07,327 to help Durst clean out his apartment? 865 00:47:08,453 --> 00:47:11,664 Abrams: Do you remember getting any lump sum of money 866 00:47:11,748 --> 00:47:12,999 from Robert Durst? 867 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,961 He sent me a check for $200,000 868 00:47:17,045 --> 00:47:19,255 after he was arrested in New Orleans. 869 00:47:19,297 --> 00:47:22,133 Abrams: After he was arrested. And why did he do that? 870 00:47:22,801 --> 00:47:25,053 I have no clue. 871 00:47:25,637 --> 00:47:28,014 Abrams: Isn't it true that Bob gave you $200,000 872 00:47:28,098 --> 00:47:30,141 so you wouldn't talk to the authorities? 873 00:47:33,061 --> 00:47:35,313 Abrams: Okay. Now, what'd you do with that money? 874 00:47:35,397 --> 00:47:38,316 -I put it in the bank. -Abrams: Mm-hmm. 875 00:47:41,569 --> 00:47:43,655 You see... 876 00:47:43,738 --> 00:47:46,616 varying degrees of... 877 00:47:47,701 --> 00:47:50,328 morals. Ethics. 878 00:47:50,870 --> 00:47:53,373 Lewin: You started to believe 879 00:47:53,456 --> 00:47:55,500 that Bob Durst 880 00:47:55,542 --> 00:47:59,838 was involved in his wife's disappearance and death. 881 00:47:59,879 --> 00:48:01,589 -Is that correct? -That's correct. 882 00:48:01,673 --> 00:48:05,010 Lewin: And did you come forward at that point in time? 883 00:48:05,051 --> 00:48:08,513 -No, I didn't. -Lewin: Can you tell me why? 884 00:48:09,222 --> 00:48:12,392 It didn't seem that it was my place to do that, 885 00:48:12,475 --> 00:48:15,895 and I-I-I never really thought about it except... 886 00:48:17,105 --> 00:48:19,357 I really don't have an answer for that. 887 00:48:20,984 --> 00:48:22,569 -(insects chirping) -(soft music playing) 888 00:48:22,652 --> 00:48:26,531 (film crew chatter) 889 00:48:27,365 --> 00:48:29,159 Jarecki: Okay, I wanna talk a little bit about 890 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,662 what was going on in your mind all these years. 891 00:48:32,704 --> 00:48:34,497 I don't know what I felt. 892 00:48:34,539 --> 00:48:37,667 Jarecki: I mean, look. You didn't create this situation. 893 00:48:37,709 --> 00:48:39,961 I know it seems like it, but I know-- 894 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,173 I submitted to the situation. 895 00:48:45,550 --> 00:48:47,719 Though I didn't create it, 896 00:48:47,802 --> 00:48:50,597 but, boy, it-- I sure feel complicit. 897 00:48:51,890 --> 00:48:54,017 I couldn't have stopped what he was doing. 898 00:48:54,059 --> 00:48:55,727 Maybe I could've. 899 00:49:01,649 --> 00:49:04,569 (yawn) I'm nervously yawning. I don't know why. 900 00:49:04,611 --> 00:49:07,238 -Jarecki: You're what? -Nervously yawning. 901 00:49:07,989 --> 00:49:10,909 -Jarecki: This is, like, you know, emotional territory. -I guess it is. 902 00:49:10,992 --> 00:49:14,454 I always thought I was not susceptible to emotions. 903 00:49:15,497 --> 00:49:16,873 It's not pleasant. 904 00:49:16,915 --> 00:49:20,752 ♪♪ 905 00:49:20,794 --> 00:49:23,672 The jokes have stopped. (laughs) 906 00:49:26,466 --> 00:49:29,052 -Jarecki: Do you feel guilty? -Yeah. 907 00:49:29,094 --> 00:49:31,262 -Jarecki: For what? -I don't know. 908 00:49:31,304 --> 00:49:33,306 (laughs) 909 00:49:33,390 --> 00:49:37,477 I-- For having held all this in, maybe. 910 00:49:40,897 --> 00:49:43,274 Feeling guilty for never telling anyone. 911 00:49:44,234 --> 00:49:46,069 Jarecki: You know, are you-- 912 00:49:46,111 --> 00:49:47,696 Are we guilty because we commit a crime, 913 00:49:47,779 --> 00:49:52,117 or are we guilty because we help somebody else cover up a crime 914 00:49:52,158 --> 00:49:55,245 -by omission or by ignoring it? -Both. Both. 915 00:49:55,954 --> 00:49:58,164 Jarecki: So you feel somewhat guilty. 916 00:50:00,458 --> 00:50:01,459 (sniffling) 917 00:50:01,543 --> 00:50:03,878 I'm not responding to these questions well. 918 00:50:03,962 --> 00:50:05,588 I'm dizzy. 919 00:50:09,467 --> 00:50:10,802 (sniffling) 920 00:50:10,885 --> 00:50:13,304 (ominous music playing) 921 00:50:13,388 --> 00:50:15,640 DePaulo: These people have really gone through hell. 922 00:50:19,227 --> 00:50:22,397 Even if they caused some of it themselves. 923 00:50:24,482 --> 00:50:28,611 The only pure people in this are the victims. 924 00:50:28,653 --> 00:50:30,196 The McCormacks. 925 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,490 Abrams: And here we are, advocating for, 926 00:50:32,532 --> 00:50:34,159 you know, Kathie's family and... 927 00:50:34,242 --> 00:50:38,079 Bagli: The McCormack family civil case 928 00:50:38,163 --> 00:50:39,748 is inching along. 929 00:50:39,831 --> 00:50:42,500 Who knows what might come out of those depositions 930 00:50:42,542 --> 00:50:46,379 and whether that becomes ammunition for their civil suit. 931 00:50:46,463 --> 00:50:48,548 ♪♪ 932 00:50:48,631 --> 00:50:51,593 My impression from afar is there were 933 00:50:51,634 --> 00:50:53,136 some settlement discussions, 934 00:50:53,178 --> 00:50:55,472 and they're no longer live. 935 00:50:58,350 --> 00:51:01,353 I'm not sure that Debrah will ever settle this case 936 00:51:01,811 --> 00:51:05,315 because for Debrah, it's all about the money, 937 00:51:05,357 --> 00:51:07,025 and she doesn't wanna part with it. 938 00:51:07,067 --> 00:51:10,945 (quiet family chatter) 939 00:51:11,196 --> 00:51:13,698 DePaulo: I hope the McCormacks get something 940 00:51:14,366 --> 00:51:16,993 and I hope they don't have to fight for it so much. 941 00:51:17,035 --> 00:51:19,287 Like this exercise now, 942 00:51:19,371 --> 00:51:22,207 trying to find out where his money is? 943 00:51:22,290 --> 00:51:25,877 (scoffs) That's gonna take time and money. 944 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,046 -(kids chattering) -Jim McCormack: Okay. 945 00:51:28,088 --> 00:51:29,214 Did you make a wish? 946 00:51:29,255 --> 00:51:30,882 Liz McCormack: I just want my dad to feel 947 00:51:31,841 --> 00:51:33,635 like he did all he could. 948 00:51:33,718 --> 00:51:34,928 ♪♪ 949 00:51:35,011 --> 00:51:38,556 Jim McCormack: All the years that we've had to endure, 950 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,018 you finally have to, you know, you accept it. 951 00:51:42,060 --> 00:51:44,854 You can't unring the bell. 952 00:51:44,896 --> 00:51:47,065 And so, Kathie's not coming back, 953 00:51:47,148 --> 00:51:49,401 but her memory will always be with me. 954 00:51:49,484 --> 00:51:50,944 ♪♪ 955 00:51:51,945 --> 00:51:55,240 Liz McCormack: I care about my parents. I care about my family. 956 00:51:56,574 --> 00:51:59,786 I don't care about Bob Durst anymore. 957 00:52:00,578 --> 00:52:01,579 It's backwards! 958 00:52:01,621 --> 00:52:04,207 -Backwards? Okay. (laughs) -(indistinct chatter) 959 00:52:04,249 --> 00:52:05,542 Liz McCormack: We're a close family. 960 00:52:05,583 --> 00:52:09,254 That feels like winning, you know? 961 00:52:10,964 --> 00:52:14,676 (muffled chatter) 962 00:52:15,802 --> 00:52:19,139 DePaulo: Now, you can say to yourself, "Debrah's a total winner," 963 00:52:19,222 --> 00:52:21,057 if it's true 964 00:52:21,099 --> 00:52:23,768 that she cares about nothing more than money. 965 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,272 Win, win, win. 966 00:52:27,313 --> 00:52:30,191 I don't see any teary-eyed widow. Do you? 967 00:52:30,275 --> 00:52:32,235 (water lapping) 968 00:52:32,277 --> 00:52:35,280 (soft music playing) 969 00:52:35,321 --> 00:52:37,574 (seagulls cawing) 970 00:52:40,827 --> 00:52:44,247 Capozzoli: When you were dating Robert Durst, 971 00:52:44,289 --> 00:52:46,958 you knew that his first wife had disappeared. 972 00:52:47,042 --> 00:52:49,627 But you stayed with him, right? 973 00:52:49,669 --> 00:52:52,047 Yes, but at that time, there was never a question 974 00:52:52,130 --> 00:52:53,965 that he had any involvement in it. 975 00:52:56,968 --> 00:52:59,304 Capozzoli: After the Westchester district attorney 976 00:52:59,346 --> 00:53:03,558 reopened the case into Kathie's disappearance, 977 00:53:04,225 --> 00:53:07,687 you stayed by Robert's side, right? 978 00:53:07,771 --> 00:53:09,647 Yes. 979 00:53:09,731 --> 00:53:12,776 (soft rumbling) 980 00:53:13,485 --> 00:53:15,487 Capozzoli: After you found out that Susan Berman, 981 00:53:15,528 --> 00:53:18,156 who was Bob's close friend, had been shot in the head, 982 00:53:18,948 --> 00:53:22,994 -you stayed by Robert's side, right? -Yes. 983 00:53:23,036 --> 00:53:24,746 (birds chirping) 984 00:53:24,829 --> 00:53:27,165 Capozzoli: After he went on the run and you found out 985 00:53:27,207 --> 00:53:29,125 he dismembered his elderly neighbor, 986 00:53:29,167 --> 00:53:30,919 you still stayed by his side, right? 987 00:53:32,587 --> 00:53:34,172 Yes. 988 00:53:34,255 --> 00:53:36,966 (quiet footsteps) 989 00:53:37,008 --> 00:53:39,010 Capozzoli: Was there any crime that Bob could've committed 990 00:53:39,094 --> 00:53:42,389 that would've offended you enough to make you leave him? 991 00:53:45,016 --> 00:53:46,101 I... 992 00:53:46,184 --> 00:53:48,186 I don't know. 993 00:53:48,228 --> 00:53:51,481 -(soft music continues) -(waves washing ashore) 994 00:54:02,617 --> 00:54:05,662 ♪♪ 995 00:54:11,668 --> 00:54:14,337 Capozzoli: Was it worth it? 996 00:54:17,716 --> 00:54:19,718 I think it was. 997 00:54:23,096 --> 00:54:27,517 ("I Put A Spell On You (feat. Joss Stone)" by Jeff Beck playing) 998 00:55:03,178 --> 00:55:06,056 ♪ I put a spell on you ♪ 999 00:55:09,476 --> 00:55:14,439 ♪ Because you're mine ♪ 1000 00:55:19,569 --> 00:55:22,781 ♪ You better stop the things you do ♪ 1001 00:55:25,909 --> 00:55:28,203 ♪ I say watch out ♪ 1002 00:55:28,286 --> 00:55:31,081 ♪ I ain't lyin' ♪ 1003 00:55:32,749 --> 00:55:34,417 ♪ Ooh ♪ 1004 00:55:36,294 --> 00:55:38,129 ♪ I can't stand it ♪ 1005 00:55:40,465 --> 00:55:43,635 ♪ 'Cause you're running around ♪ 1006 00:55:44,344 --> 00:55:46,763 ♪ I can't stand it ♪ 1007 00:55:48,598 --> 00:55:52,644 ♪ 'Cause you're putting me down, so I... ♪ 1008 00:55:52,727 --> 00:55:55,855 ♪ I put a spell on you ♪ 1009 00:55:56,439 --> 00:55:57,732 ♪ Ooh ♪ 1010 00:55:59,609 --> 00:56:03,655 ♪ Because you're mine ♪ 1011 00:56:06,658 --> 00:56:09,661 ♪ Oh, you're mine! ♪ 1012 00:56:22,799 --> 00:56:24,509 ♪ Yeah ♪ 1013 00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:30,015 ♪ You better stop the things you're doing ♪ 1014 00:56:32,183 --> 00:56:34,269 ♪ I said watch out ♪ 1015 00:56:34,352 --> 00:56:37,147 ♪ I ain't lyin' ♪ 1016 00:56:37,188 --> 00:56:40,525 ♪ Oh, I ain't lyin' ♪ 1017 00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:44,404 ♪ 'Cause, baby, I love you ♪ 1018 00:56:45,530 --> 00:56:48,700 ♪ Can't you see that I love you? ♪ 1019 00:56:48,742 --> 00:56:50,785 ♪ I love you, I love you ♪ 1020 00:56:50,869 --> 00:56:54,039 ♪ Even if you don't want me to ♪ 1021 00:56:54,873 --> 00:56:59,002 ♪ 'Cause I put a, just put a little ♪ 1022 00:56:59,044 --> 00:57:01,713 ♪ I put a spell on you ♪ 1023 00:57:03,256 --> 00:57:05,425 ♪ Yes, I did ♪ 1024 00:57:05,508 --> 00:57:08,887 ♪ Because you're mine ♪ 1025 00:57:08,970 --> 00:57:10,764 ♪ You're mine! ♪ 1026 00:57:13,058 --> 00:57:17,979 ♪ So I, so I, I, I put a spell on you ♪ 1027 00:57:23,234 --> 00:57:26,946 ♪ Because you're mine ♪ 1028 00:57:27,030 --> 00:57:28,573 ♪ Hey yeah! ♪ 1029 00:57:29,491 --> 00:57:32,744 ♪ You're mine, yeah! ♪ 1030 00:57:33,661 --> 00:57:35,997 ♪ Because you're... ♪ 1031 00:57:36,623 --> 00:57:39,876 ♪ Mine... ♪ 1032 00:57:41,002 --> 00:57:44,047 (song fades out)