(breeze blowing)
(soft ominous music playing)
newscaster: More than 50 days of trial. We covered it.
We watched it. We absorbed it.
Today, we'll cover the final moment in the saga,
the sentencing of the defendant,
convicted murderer Robert Durst.
Hon. Mark Windham: Please be seated, everyone. Good morning.
Calling the case People versus Robert Durst.
Mr. Durst is present
and represented by Mr. DeGuerin,
Mr. Chesnoff.
The ripple effects on a homicide are terrible.
And so,
for the society to heal, to recover,
there must be some process
of assigning accountability.
Mr. Durst confessed to the crime
in the special circumstance of witness killing to Nick Chavin.
Mr. Durst's statement that only the killer
could've written the Cadaver Note,
which, obviously, is true,
and then his admission that he wrote that note
proves his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt a second way.
His bathroom confession to three killings
on a nationwide broadcast
is a confession he cannot and did not explain.
That proves his guilt in a third, independent way.
It's the judgment and sentence of this court, Mr. Durst,
that you be imprisoned in the state prison
for the term prescribed by law.
That is, life in prison
without the possibility of parole.
♪♪
Charles Bagli: By the time Bob's sentencing took place,
whatever magic he used to be able to...
display is gone.
And after the hearing,
Bob is kind of on his own.
His friends knew they had already put themselves
in some jeopardy.
And so,
he was all on his lonesome at that point.
operator (on phone): Hello. This is a prepaid call from...
Robert Durst (on phone): Bob!
-Hello? -voicemail: At the tone,
please record your message.
When you are finished recording,
-you may hang up or press one for more options. -Durst: Hello?
(beep)
(insects chirping)
-(beep) -Debbie?
Debbie?
Hello?!
("Survivor" by Nathaniel Rateliff & The Night Sweats playing)
♪ Well, you just think that I'm ♪
♪ Some great survivor ♪
(static)
♪ And you just build upon ♪
♪ The light to carry you ♪
(shutter snapping)
♪ Well, I don't even talk that way ♪
♪ See, I wanted you to stay ♪
♪ And show you the world's a better place ♪
(scuttling)
♪ And as we crawl to find our way ♪
♪ We even take the shape of something else ♪
(shutter snaps)
-♪ You think that I'm just ♪ -(gunshot)
♪ Some great survivor ♪
♪ You think that I'm just ♪
(shutters snapping)
♪ Some great survivor ♪
♪ I'm afraid that the weight of the world ♪
♪ Is catching up with you ♪
♪♪
(scuttling)
(wind blowing)
-(ominous music playing) -(clock ticking)
(wind blowing)
(car horns honking)
It feels very wrong to get to the end of this and be like,
"Bob Durst, lone wolf, did terrible things,
and then got in trouble for it."
'Cause that's not really what happened.
What really happened was
Bob Durst did some terrible things
and a whole lot of other people helped him
a dozen different ways to avoid trouble.
That includes his friends,
it includes his family,
and the one person in his life
who's not been in the spotlight, his wife Debrah.
♪♪
Debbie certainly had enough information
to understand that Bob
had likely engaged
in very bad conduct.
♪♪
Andrew Jarecki: We were talking about other voices in your ear.
Obviously, one of the loudest voices is Bob's wife.
-Um-- -I'm not gonna talk about her.
-Jarecki: You don't want to-- -I'm not gonna talk about her.
That was clear when we agreed to this.
I am not gonna talk about her.
(shutter snaps)
Can you imagine if Debrah Lee could have testified?
-Wouldn't you-- -(Jarecki speaking)
Correct. And had a good excuse not to, as his wife.
But wouldn't you love to see her on the stand?
(ring tone)
Jarecki: Hey, it's Jarecki.
Ah...
Alright, John. Thanks for letting me know. Bye.
Bob Durst... is deceased.
-(phone clatters) -Lisa DePaulo: Holy shit!
(sighs) I thought he'd outlive us all.
I really did. Wow.
-What's the cause? -We don't know.
newscaster 1: This news from the West Coast.
Notorious real estate heir Robert Durst has died.
newscaster 2: Authorities say he went into cardiac arrest
while serving a life sentence.
newscaster 3: For decades, many believed
he used his fortune to dodge justice.
Bagli: I really thought there was kind of an irony to it.
That, once again,
even in his death, Bob was escaping justice.
newscaster: And in yet another stunning twist to this case,
this recent conviction could be vacated
because he died before his appeal.
♪♪
John Lewin: When Bob Durst died,
under the rules in California,
his conviction was abated,
meaning it disappears,
because it did not go through one round of appeal.
♪♪
-(breeze blowing) -(thunder rumbling)
Jim McCormack: When Bob died,
his conviction was basically written off the books,
which, to me, is ludicrous.
I mean, he was convicted. He had 12 people listen to,
you know, many, many hours of testimony and witnesses.
(wind chimes ringing)
I want him to be held accountable.
Liz McCormack: Obviously, Bob Durst died in prison.
And I think it was important for my dad, of course,
to see some accountability come through.
And so, it became more and more of a mission
to bring at least some, some closure
or some justice to his family,
and to Kathie specifically.
(somber music playing)
Jim McCormack: And so, the next thing I did,
I got a hold of our lawyers and said, "Okay, now what?"
-(quiet reporter chatter) -(shutters snapping)
Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you so much for coming.
You all could imagine how difficult it has been
for the last 40 years to fight to get justice
for Kathleen and for the family.
(shutter snaps)
newscaster: Kathie Durst's brother, Jim McCormack,
is leading his family's fight for justice.
Jim McCormack: My family and I have serious questions,
and we deserve answers.
♪♪
The only power they have at this point is a civil suit.
And damn straight, they should.
You know what? These poor people,
they have been through hell!
Liz McCormack: I know, for my dad,
working now with these lawyers,
he's doing the things that he wished maybe he had done
when we were all younger.
-(soft chatter) -(shutters snapping)
Jarecki: So, who is your opponent
in the wrongful death case if Bob is dead?
So, it's, it's Bob's estate.
♪♪
(Jarecki speaking)
Matthew Capozzoli: Bob Durst's wife, Debbie Charatan.
We do intend to depose Debrah Charatan.
The deposition
is an opportunity
to look a potential witness in the eye
and find out what that person knows.
(music slows down, stops)
speaker: Okay, could you raise your right hand, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony
you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth,
-and nothing but the truth? -Yes.
speaker: Thank you very much.
Capozzoli: Good morning, Ms. Charatan.
Robert Durst has been accused of at least three murders.
What does it say about you that you stayed with him
and supported him through all that?
Well...
Robert and I had a lot of history.
And I had rough times in my life,
and he was there for me.
And when he had rough times, I was there for him.
It says that I'm a loyal person.
(quiet music playing)
Capozzoli: Do you recall ever speaking with Robert Durst
about the possibility that he would be sued
for wrongful death?
Not really, no.
(Durst speaking on tape)
(Debrah Lee Charatan speaking on tape)
Capozzoli: Do you recall speaking with Robert Durst
about the possibility he'd be sued by the McCormack family?
No, because there were no lawsuits.
It was just not...
No.
(Durst speaking on tape)
(Charatan speaking on tape)
Capozzoli: In prior testimony,
you said you first met Robert Durst in 1987.
-Was that statement accurate? -I believe so.
Capozzoli: How did you meet Robert Durst?
At a charity event.
-(soft piano music playing) -(party chatter)
Capozzoli: Would you say that was a turbulent time in your life?
-Charatan: Yes. -Capozzoli: Why would you say that?
I was getting divorced.
I was having problems with my business.
(jaunty music playing)
Bagli: By the time she met Bob, remember,
she's had this 15 minutes of fame
with her all-female real estate firm.
(news fanfare playing)
Our spotlight this morning
is on three American success stories.
First is Debrah Charatan-Berger, who lives in New York City.
Her line is commercial real estate.
Charatan-Berger: I believe that if I help enough people
get what they want, I'll get what I want.
So I never really focused on myself,
or the obstacles, or the difficulties.
I just forged ahead.
♪♪
Jennifer Cherney: She wanted control, no question.
-And we were naive. -(muffled chatter)
We didn't know of the real world.
And she thought she could take advantage of that.
I just really had the drive and the motivation to succeed.
I really wanted to succeed. I really wanted to earn money.
Cherney: And at a certain point,
she decided that she didn't need to pay people.
♪♪
Bagli: She was stiffing one agent after another
for their commission, their livelihood.
(printer clicking, whirring)
So the lawsuits piled up.
And finally, rather than paying settlements,
Debrah filed for bankruptcy.
So, her world is
really in turmoil,
and she needs help.
-(ominous music playing) -(quiet party chatter)
Nick Chavin: Bob and I were at a charity thing.
Debrah must've spotted him from afar
and had the whole thing planned out.
-(soft piano music playing) -She just came up to us.
"Hi, Nick."
Probably the first time she was ever friendly to me.
And I introduced them.
I don't know for how long she had it in mind to marry Bob,
but she had it in mind wanting to be close to his money.
(shutter snaps)
Bagli: In those early days,
their relationship flourished.
Bob gets her into her lifelong object of desire,
an apartment on 5th Avenue.
Bob helps her buy a house out in the Hamptons,
where all the real estate moguls
-spend their summer weekends. -(seagulls cawing)
Bob is constantly helping Debbie
with what he can provide.
Money.
(ominous music playing)
Someone says to you, "Hey,
"I know this great guy.
"Gonna inherit hundreds of millions of dollars.
"There's just one little thing.
"His first wife disappeared, and they think
he might've killed her."
I don't know many women that would say,
"Eh, I don't mind. (laughs)
Fix me up."
Capozzoli: When you were meeting and dating him,
did you ever talk about what happened to Kathie Durst?
Once.
♪♪
He came to my apartment
and he brought me articles.
I think he wanted to tell me about it
before someone else did.
(muffled chatter)
Capozzoli: As you sit here today,
do you think that Robert Durst killed Kathleen Durst?
No.
Capozzoli: Did he ever tell you what happened to Kathie?
Charatan: No, that just-- just that she disappeared.
Capozzoli: The truth is that
there was ample evidence
of Durst's guilt in 1982.
But, the influence and wealth
of the Durst family can't be ignored.
(traffic noise)
They own one of the largest real estate empires
in New York City.
Jim McCormack: When Kathie went missing,
contact with the Durst family
was zero. Zero.
I mean, this is my brother-in-law,
my sister's father-in-law,
and my mother's contemporary.
Seymour should've picked up a phone
and called Ann McCormack and said,
"I have the resources and the influence and blah blah.
What do you need?" Zero. You know why?
I believe that he knew.
♪♪
He knew what his son had done.
Robert Abrams: In 1982, the Durst family
did not offer to cooperate with the police
and did nothing to look for Kathie.
speaker: Can you raise your right hand, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about...
Abrams: But this lawsuit finally gives us the opportunity
to force them to testify
and explain why they never came forward.
Abrams: Uh, good morning, Mr. Durst.
It's been 40-plus years to get to this point
and this is the first time
you're actually having a conversation
with Kathie's family. Why did it take 40 years?
I have no idea.
♪♪
Abrams: Mr. Durst, why don't you tell us
who your siblings are? Who's the oldest?
-Tom Durst: Robert. -Abrams: And then?
-Tom Durst: Douglas. -Abrams: And after Doug--
Tom Durst: Wendy, me-- Tom.
Liz McCormack: There's a lot of talk about
his family and how they...
they ignored what happened to her and how they...
they had all this power,
and they could've done something. But,
I also think it's important to talk about
how they could've done something before she disappeared,
you know? I mean,
they knew.
Abrams: You were aware that Bob was a violent person, correct?
I was aware of it...
since I was 4 years old, yes.
-(curious music playing) -(car rattling)
(kids chattering)
Tom Durst: My first memory of Bob is him hitting me.
I was sitting in the hallway on the carpet.
(toy clicking)
He walked by and hit me.
He was trying to kill me from the day I arrived.
Abrams: And I assume you told your father?
Tom Durst: I doubt it. My father was like a visiting duke.
I didn't see him very often. I probably told the governess,
who may well have told my father.
Capozzoli: Do you recall the first time you met Kathie?
-Yes. -Capozzoli: What was your initial impression of her?
Wendy Durst Kreeger: I liked Kathie.
We were hopeful that
she could help turn him around. (weak laugh)
(somber music playing)
Jim McCormack: Kathie had entered a promising life
that very quickly degraded into a terrible,
terrible, abusive relationship.
Tom Durst: I was at a cousin's wedding.
She said, "He hit me," and then walked away.
Abrams: Did you confront Bob about that?
-Tom Durst: Me? Confront Bob? -Abrams: Yeah. Yeah.
-Tom Durst: No. -Abrams: Why not?
Tom Durst: He's a monster. I never confronted Bob about anything.
-Douglas Durst: I knew that they had fights. -(muffled slap)
And he was seeing other women.
Abrams: Did you ever speak to Bob
and ask him why he was physically abusing his wife?
No.
Lewin: I never expect
a family member to cooperate,
to turn in, to...
provide evidence involving their son,
their father, their brother, et cetera.
But this was a very unusual case.
♪♪
(insects chirping)
What do you prefer? Do you prefer Mr. Durst? Tom?
-Tom Durst: Tom is good. -Lewin: Tom is good. Okay.
So, let me ask you, Tom.
Kathie disappears
on Sunday, January 31, 1982.
I know that there was a meeting
the same week that Kathie disappeared
on February 3rd, which would've been Wednesday.
Tom Durst: Right. The Durst Organization met once a month.
My sister called me from the meeting,
and she's very upset about Kathie being missing.
Capozzoli: Did you ever discuss Kathie's disappearance
with your other brothers?
With Tom.
Tom Durst: I remember her saying,
"Shouldn't we be putting up posters?
"Shouldn't we be doing something?
"We're not doing anything! Kathie's missing,
and we're having a meeting."
Then, she says, "Bob showed up to the meeting
wearing muddy boots."
♪♪
That really stuck in her mind. Muddy boots.
Wendy was panicked.
Wendy thought there was something bad had happened.
Lewin: Meaning she's associating Bob's muddy boots
-with Kathie's disappearance? -Tom Durst: Correct.
(quiet footsteps)
Capozzoli: Many people believe that Robert
disposed of Kathie's body in the Pine Barrens in New Jersey.
(wind blowing)
Which is like a sandy forest.
And we know Bob was in the area because of these collect calls
that he made from the next town over.
(hangs up)
(thunder rumbles)
Abrams: Your brother Tom testified
there was a meeting in the Durst Organization offices
where you told him Robert was in muddy boots.
-Do you recall that? -No.
Abrams: You don't recall seeing Robert in muddy boots?
No.
Capozzoli: We have one sibling
saying that a few days after Kathie disappeared,
Robert was at the Durst family meeting
dressed in muddy boots
and another sibling saying that that never happened.
(somber music continues)
Abrams: You're telling me that a loved one is in trouble,
and you know that there's a good possibility
they might get murdered, your testimony today
is you don't know what you would do?
-Is that your testimony? -If I was asked that question now,
I would go to the authorities.
Then, I was a lot younger and stupider and--
Abrams: How old were you in 1982?
Kreeger: I was 30-something.
Abrams: Uh, why don't we go off the record,
so she could fix her stuff, and then we'll come back on?
-You need a couple of minutes? -I need some Tylenol
because I have a splitting headache from this.
Abrams: Given the fact that your brother was a violent person,
did it strike you that maybe he did something to her?
It struck me as a possibility, yes.
Abrams: If it struck you as a possibility,
is there a reason why you never reached out to the family
and gave your condolences for what your brother did?
I didn't know what my brother did, and...
uh, I did not think it was my place to do that.
Liz McCormack: I don't understand
the callousness,
the just complete emotional detachment
from somebody who was so part of your life.
Capozzoli: Instead of trying to protect the family business,
had the Durst family cooperated with police in 1982,
Robert Durst could've been arrested
for Kathie's murder at that time...
(shutter snaps)
...and Susan Berman and Morris Black would still be alive.
-(clapping) -(party chatter)
(people cheering)
Kreeger: I just wanted to say that
it's been interesting, all of this.
-(laughter) -Happy birthday.
Thank you very much.
(applause)
Capozzoli: At that time, did you ever meet Robert's brother Douglas Durst?
Yes.
speaker: Tell us for the camera how you got all of the proclamations.
-No. It's secret. -speaker: Come on, Douglas. (laughs)
Abrams: How'd you feel about Debrah Charatan at that point in time?
lawyer: Objection.
You want me to tell you in front of her attorneys?
-(lawyer laughs) -(jaunty music playing)
Capozzoli: What was your first impression of Debrah Charatan?
-I hated her. (laughs) -(Capozzoli laughs)
(laughter, quiet party chatter)
Charatan: I think that everybody in the family
thought I was after him for his money.
I thought it might be...
something of a business relationship.
♪♪
Capozzoli: And were you surprised they got married?
-Shocked. -(glass shatters)
-(beep, snap) -(flash capacitor whining)
The timing of Robert Durst's marriage
to Debbie Charatan is extremely suspicious.
♪♪
Are you aware that in 2000,
the Westchester County district attorney
reopened its investigation into the disappearance
-of Kathleen Durst? -Yes.
He said, "Do you wanna get married?"
You know, that kind of thing. You know?
-Capozzoli: And you said yes? -I said yes.
Capozzoli: Why did you say yes?
-Because he asked. -(Capozzoli laughs)
No one else was asking.
Capozzoli: After you get married, did you have a wedding reception?
-No. -Capozzoli: Did you and Robert Durst
-spend your wedding night together? -No.
So they get married on the 11th.
(laughs) And December 12th,
he buys a one-way ticket to California
to go kill Susan Berman.
(plane roaring)
-(muffled gunshot) -(dull whooshing)
Capozzoli: What was Susan Berman's personality like?
Hm...
Manic.
Capozzoli: Did you consider Susan Berman to be your friend?
No.
She just did not like Susan for whatever reason.
♪♪
Then, after Christmas,
Nick came into my office. All he said was
Susan had been shot in the back of the head.
And he couldn't talk. He just--
He was walking out of the room,
and I said-- and I--
instinctively, I said, "Bob did it."
Terry was quick to recognize
that the only person that possibly could have killed
Susan was Bob.
(tense music playing)
Terry Chavin: And then I had a choice.
I could either never call Debrah again,
or I could call her and see what she says.
I wanted to hear from her.
Jarecki: And you called her?
Terry Chavin: I called her, and it was just stunning to me.
This is a time when you're supposed to be
not criticizing the dead person.
She started talking about
how Susan was not loyal to Bob.
It was amazing she would just launch right into that.
Capozzoli: As you sit here today, do you believe
that Robert Durst killed Susan Berman?
I respect what the jury said.
♪♪
Capozzoli: But do you personally believe that he did it?
Well, I respect what the jury said, so...
There were two people in his life
who he was close enough to
who could be trouble.
Debrah Lee was one.
Susan was another.
He marries one and kills the other.
Problem solved.
(music fades out)
(quiet chatter)
Today, we had a call conference
which was called a discovery conference.
Each side is supposed to exchange
information and documents.
(cart squeaking)
Capozzoli: It's a fact-finding exercise.
You also get a sense of what the defense strategy might be.
Jarecki: And what's been the essence of their response?
This is a sworn statement
signed by Debrah Charatan.
"I currently estimate the assets of Bob's estate
"to be under $100,000,
with debts of approximately $250,000."
That's an interesting development
because when Bob was arrested in New Orleans
in 2015,
the police said that he was worth $100 million.
♪♪
Now, we're fairly certain
that he didn't spend $100 million on his defense,
so what happened?
Abrams: So do you know what happened to all of his money?
-He spent it. -Abrams: And how did he spend it?
Think I know? I don't know.
I believe that when Debrah Charatan says
that Robert Durst's estate
does not have a lot of money in it,
it's technically true.
But that's only a small part of the story.
The vast majority of Bob's money
is in a trust.
Abrams: Would you agree with me that there was more than $100,000
in the trust when Robert died?
-Yes. -Abrams: Right.
So, therefore, you didn't include the trust assets
in the assets that were in his estate, correct?
They don't belong to him.
♪♪
Abrams: The argument that she's making is that
that money is trust money.
It's not Robert's personal money,
and it's not part of his estate.
(Durst speaking on phone)
(Charatan speaking on phone)
(seagull cawing)
Capozzoli: When you have the kind of resources
that Robert Durst had,
you have the ability to pay attorneys and accountants
to structure your affairs in such a way
as to limit your liability, so to speak.
The way I understand it,
and the way the lawyers explained to me,
the trust is just a totally separate entity
having nothing to do with Bob.
-Charatan (on tape): Hi. -Durst (on tape): Hi.
There's at least
tens of millions of dollars in that trust,
and we know that Debbie used some of that money
to grow her real estate business.
Bagli: With the help of Bob's trust,
Debbie goes from broker
to buyer of real estate.
Abrams: If you look at the buildings that BCB purchased,
Bob's trust had a hand in over a dozen of them.
She would buy up tenements,
small buildings in Queens or in Brooklyn,
fix them up,
and then sell them at a profit.
Now, sometimes this meant screwing with the tenants.
Some tenants in Crown Heights are rallying for better rights
and against gentrification.
They say last year, a new owner bought the building,
BCB Properties.
And since then, they've been trying to buy out
their apartments and push them out.
Bagli: And some of the tenants said that Debrah ran her buildings
like a slum lord.
Capozzoli: How many properties would you say
you've bought and sold
since you started BCB Property Management?
-I have no idea. -Capozzoli: I'm not gonna hold you to it.
-More than 10? -No, I-- Oh yes.
-Capozzoli: More than 20? -Yes.
Capozzoli: More than 30?
Perhaps.
We know that Debrah Charatan went from having
a very small real estate company to a real estate company
that was doing hundreds of millions of dollars.
♪♪
Bagli: By this time, Debbie, his wife,
had a lot of authority
over Bob's finances,
over his life.
Sometimes, maybe more than he bargained for.
Durst: Let me ask you something.
So, the lawyers said the trustees will agree
to pay for the defense. The question is,
when are the trustees
gonna start paying bills?
Charatan: Well, the thing is, Bob,
they wanna know, you know, basically how much
and what the scope of work is.
They're 100% behind you and your team and--
Okay, I love the fact that you're behind me 100%.
I'd like them to pay the fucking bills.
Charatan: Bob, they have to know what they're paying for.
Trust me, they will not let you down.
-Trust me. I promise you that. -Okay.
-Alright. That's all I wanna hear. -And I wouldn't let--
And I wouldn't let you down.
Don't you know that?
Durst: So, there's a whole 'nother viewpoint.
You're perceived as not wanting
to spend money on my legal defense
because it would decrease the amount in the trust,
and you would inherit less.
That is how you are perceived.
Charatan: Who perceives me that way?
Durst: Me.
And I could just change my will
and take you out of it.
Bob, you know what?
I'm done.
I don't need you. I don't need this.
I don't need any of it. I'm sorry you feel that way.
-You are entitled to feel as you wish-- -No, I don't feel that way!
-Yes, you do! Yes, you do! -I said it appeared
-that that's the way it was going. -No, no, no...
No, you know what? What you need to do
is stay out of it. What you need to do is let the trustee,
-let Mike-- -I need to stay out of it?
-This is my life! -Just listen. Just listen.
I'm gonna hang up the phone now,
and I'm gonna say goodbye to you.
It was nice knowing you--
-(stammering) -Will you stop it? It's my turn.
-Let me finish. -Okay, you go.
♪♪
Um, what I wanna do is I wanna leave you my assets,
all my assets, just the way it was
before I was arrested,
-and I wanna leave it like that. -Okay.
-I think that's a smart thing to do. -Okay. Okay.
Um...
So, I love you. Bye.
Okay, bye. (laughs)
(hangs up)
(inaudible)
Capozzoli: This was the definition of a marriage of convenience.
In fact,
she loved someone else.
(line ringing, beep)
(Durst on phone)
(Steven Holm on phone)
(Holm laughs)
(Charatan on phone)
Capozzoli: Who was Steven Holm?
Steven Holm was the man that I...
live with...
for about 15 years.
Capozzoli: You had a romantic relationship with Steven Holm. Is that right?
That's right.
They went to charity events. They went to social events.
They were out publicly, holding themselves out
as being husband and wife,
all while she was still married to Bob Durst.
Capozzoli: Did money play a role in your decision
not to divorce Robert Durst and marry Steven Holm?
I guess so.
Capozzoli: How would-- How so?
Well, Robert's trust...
could-- I could only inherit the trust
if I were married to him.
And so, he preferred to stay the way we were.
And I asked Steve, and he said it's fine with him.
And so, we left it.
Bagli: You have to ask yourself,
what did Bob get out of his relationship with Debbie?
'Cause Debbie got a lot.
♪♪
And so, I think that Bob got from Debbie
some emotional support, unflagging loyalty.
But, over time,
the help becomes
much more substantial,
especially when Bob found himself in jail again.
(Charatan on phone)
(Durst on phone)
(shutter snaps)
Capozzoli: There were multiple occasions
when Susan Giordano sent bills to Debrah Charatan
and Debrah Charatan paid those bills.
(Charatan on phone)
-(Durst on phone) -Charatan: You know?
Because if she sent Susie money,
it would look bad. It would be easy to trace.
But by paying the bills directly,
it would be harder to track down.
(Durst on phone)
Capozzoli: By the time Susie shows up in court,
she's gotten hundreds of thousands of dollars
from Bob or Debbie.
speaker: For the record, please state your first and last name.
Lewin: Ma'am, do you consider yourself,
as you sit up there today, to be an unbiased witness?
Giordano: I would--
I am unbiased, yes. I am totally...
unbiased.
♪♪
Capozzoli: And Susan Giordano was not the only witness
in Bob's past that Debbie helped out with.
Lewin: Good afternoon.
Mr. Altman,
do you believe that your friendship with Mr. Durst
in any way affects your testimony?
No.
Lewin: In 2003,
how was it that Mr. Durst ended up giving you
a $40,000 or $50,000 Lexus to you and your wife?
He wanted to do something nice for us.
(Charatan on phone)
(Durst on phone)
(beep)
(Durst on phone)
(Charatan on phone)
Bob was very concerned about Doug Oliver
not coming to his aid and helping him
and had Debbie call Doug Oliver.
(Durst on phone)
♪♪
Dick DeGuerin: Now, let's talk just a little bit
about your knowledge of Kathie.
Did Kathie use cocaine?
(Doug Oliver speaking)
DeGuerin: Did you ever get calls
from Kathie seeking cocaine?
Oliver: Yes.
All of these people
who got entangled in his web.
♪♪
"Do I protect Bob because he's so good to me?
"Do I protect Bobby because I'm just a loyal person?
"Do I protect Bobby 'cause I have an...
inch of doubt that maybe he didn't do this?"
♪♪
You have to say, "What price is my soul?"
Right? "What price is my soul?"
-(breeze blowing) -(birds chirping)
Jarecki: After everything you've done for Bob,
how much you've been there for him,
do you blame yourself for anything?
You know, I-I've done...
Not that I expected anything in return,
but anything he's ever asked, I did.
I helped.
(soft music playing)
And even now, even today,
after all this hassle you've been put through
and after watching him confess
and after watching the jury convict him...
No, and I-I do. And I say that...
It's really hard to realize that all that evidence, yes.
And it does point to that. And...
What's stopping you from saying,
"I guess he murdered Susan Berman"?
What...
I don't know! I don't know.
But do I know in my heart? Yes.
But to hear yourself say it also makes it like,
"Wow, that could be really real."
You know? Even though you know it.
DePaulo: He kinda zeroed in on people
who would be easily manipulated.
And they were. And they kind of--
You know, I mean, look at with the juror in Texas!
(Jarecki speaking)
DePaulo: Yeah, the one who
Bobby gave a job to afterwards.
Like, that was nuts.
(Jarecki and Chris Lovell on phone)
(phone hangs up)
Hello?
♪♪
Abrams: Did you ever help your wife clean Bob's apartment?
-No. -Abrams: Were you ever present
when she was cleaning the apartment?
No.
(inaudible)
Abrams: Isn't it true while Durst was on the run,
he asked you to go to the apartment
and get some stuff for him?
Abrams: Isn't it true that you were there
to help Durst clean out his apartment?
Abrams: Do you remember getting any lump sum of money
from Robert Durst?
He sent me a check for $200,000
after he was arrested in New Orleans.
Abrams: After he was arrested. And why did he do that?
I have no clue.
Abrams: Isn't it true that Bob gave you $200,000
so you wouldn't talk to the authorities?
Abrams: Okay. Now, what'd you do with that money?
-I put it in the bank. -Abrams: Mm-hmm.
You see...
varying degrees of...
morals. Ethics.
Lewin: You started to believe
that Bob Durst
was involved in his wife's disappearance and death.
-Is that correct? -That's correct.
Lewin: And did you come forward at that point in time?
-No, I didn't. -Lewin: Can you tell me why?
It didn't seem that it was my place to do that,
and I-I-I never really thought about it except...
I really don't have an answer for that.
-(insects chirping) -(soft music playing)
(film crew chatter)
Jarecki: Okay, I wanna talk a little bit about
what was going on in your mind all these years.
I don't know what I felt.
Jarecki: I mean, look. You didn't create this situation.
I know it seems like it, but I know--
I submitted to the situation.
Though I didn't create it,
but, boy, it-- I sure feel complicit.
I couldn't have stopped what he was doing.
Maybe I could've.
(yawn) I'm nervously yawning. I don't know why.
-Jarecki: You're what? -Nervously yawning.
-Jarecki: This is, like, you know, emotional territory. -I guess it is.
I always thought I was not susceptible to emotions.
It's not pleasant.
♪♪
The jokes have stopped. (laughs)
-Jarecki: Do you feel guilty? -Yeah.
-Jarecki: For what? -I don't know.
(laughs)
I-- For having held all this in, maybe.
Feeling guilty for never telling anyone.
Jarecki: You know, are you--
Are we guilty because we commit a crime,
or are we guilty because we help somebody else cover up a crime
-by omission or by ignoring it? -Both. Both.
Jarecki: So you feel somewhat guilty.
(sniffling)
I'm not responding to these questions well.
I'm dizzy.
(sniffling)
(ominous music playing)
DePaulo: These people have really gone through hell.
Even if they caused some of it themselves.
The only pure people in this are the victims.
The McCormacks.
Abrams: And here we are, advocating for,
you know, Kathie's family and...
Bagli: The McCormack family civil case
is inching along.
Who knows what might come out of those depositions
and whether that becomes ammunition for their civil suit.
♪♪
My impression from afar is there were
some settlement discussions,
and they're no longer live.
I'm not sure that Debrah will ever settle this case
because for Debrah, it's all about the money,
and she doesn't wanna part with it.
(quiet family chatter)
DePaulo: I hope the McCormacks get something
and I hope they don't have to fight for it so much.
Like this exercise now,
trying to find out where his money is?
(scoffs) That's gonna take time and money.
-(kids chattering) -Jim McCormack: Okay.
Did you make a wish?
Liz McCormack: I just want my dad to feel
like he did all he could.
♪♪
Jim McCormack: All the years that we've had to endure,
you finally have to, you know, you accept it.
You can't unring the bell.
And so, Kathie's not coming back,
but her memory will always be with me.
♪♪
Liz McCormack: I care about my parents. I care about my family.
I don't care about Bob Durst anymore.
It's backwards!
-Backwards? Okay. (laughs) -(indistinct chatter)
Liz McCormack: We're a close family.
That feels like winning, you know?
(muffled chatter)
DePaulo: Now, you can say to yourself, "Debrah's a total winner,"
if it's true
that she cares about nothing more than money.
Win, win, win.
I don't see any teary-eyed widow. Do you?
(water lapping)
(soft music playing)
(seagulls cawing)
Capozzoli: When you were dating Robert Durst,
you knew that his first wife had disappeared.
But you stayed with him, right?
Yes, but at that time, there was never a question
that he had any involvement in it.
Capozzoli: After the Westchester district attorney
reopened the case into Kathie's disappearance,
you stayed by Robert's side, right?
Yes.
(soft rumbling)
Capozzoli: After you found out that Susan Berman,
who was Bob's close friend, had been shot in the head,
-you stayed by Robert's side, right? -Yes.
(birds chirping)
Capozzoli: After he went on the run and you found out
he dismembered his elderly neighbor,
you still stayed by his side, right?
Yes.
(quiet footsteps)
Capozzoli: Was there any crime that Bob could've committed
that would've offended you enough to make you leave him?
I...
I don't know.
-(soft music continues) -(waves washing ashore)
♪♪
Capozzoli: Was it worth it?
I think it was.
("I Put A Spell On You (feat. Joss Stone)" by Jeff Beck playing)
♪ I put a spell on you ♪
♪ Because you're mine ♪
♪ You better stop the things you do ♪
♪ I say watch out ♪
♪ I ain't lyin' ♪
♪ Ooh ♪
♪ I can't stand it ♪
♪ 'Cause you're running around ♪
♪ I can't stand it ♪
♪ 'Cause you're putting me down, so I... ♪
♪ I put a spell on you ♪
♪ Ooh ♪
♪ Because you're mine ♪
♪ Oh, you're mine! ♪
♪ Yeah ♪
♪ You better stop the things you're doing ♪
♪ I said watch out ♪
♪ I ain't lyin' ♪
♪ Oh, I ain't lyin' ♪
♪ 'Cause, baby, I love you ♪
♪ Can't you see that I love you? ♪
♪ I love you, I love you ♪
♪ Even if you don't want me to ♪
♪ 'Cause I put a, just put a little ♪
♪ I put a spell on you ♪
♪ Yes, I did ♪
♪ Because you're mine ♪
♪ You're mine! ♪
♪ So I, so I, I, I put a spell on you ♪
♪ Because you're mine ♪
♪ Hey yeah! ♪
♪ You're mine, yeah! ♪
♪ Because you're... ♪
♪ Mine... ♪
(song fades out)