1 00:00:11,045 --> 00:00:14,013 Freeman: When I was six years old we moved to chicago, 2 00:00:14,115 --> 00:00:16,715 a little country boy in the big city. 3 00:00:16,817 --> 00:00:19,568 While I was there, you won't believe the things I saw people do: 4 00:00:19,670 --> 00:00:23,172 Theft, vandalism, sometimes worse. 5 00:00:23,274 --> 00:00:25,874 Things were different in small town mississippi, 6 00:00:25,976 --> 00:00:28,744 where everyone knows everyone. 7 00:00:28,846 --> 00:00:31,780 If you were up to no good, you'd never get away with it. 8 00:00:31,882 --> 00:00:35,434 But the anonymity of a densely populated city, like chicago, 9 00:00:35,536 --> 00:00:39,638 seemed to expose a more primal aspect of human nature. 10 00:00:40,274 --> 00:00:42,975 Religions call it sin. 11 00:00:43,077 --> 00:00:47,112 And faiths around the globe have their own prescriptions 12 00:00:47,214 --> 00:00:50,466 for preventing, and punishing, sin. 13 00:00:51,535 --> 00:00:54,036 I wonder, if we put all those ideas together, 14 00:00:54,138 --> 00:00:57,389 could we actually conquer sin? 15 00:01:00,044 --> 00:01:02,745 I'm traveling to the front lines of our battle with sin. 16 00:01:03,881 --> 00:01:06,899 From blood-soaked mass rituals... 17 00:01:07,501 --> 00:01:10,302 So this is where sin went viral? 18 00:01:13,607 --> 00:01:15,941 To a festival that conquers evil. 19 00:01:16,043 --> 00:01:20,045 Jaymin: We light candles everywhere and remove the evil from us. 20 00:01:21,048 --> 00:01:24,199 Freeman: I'll meet an executioner, tortured by guilt... 21 00:01:24,668 --> 00:01:27,136 Jerry: Why do I have to continue to sin over and over and over, 22 00:01:27,238 --> 00:01:29,638 when I know it's wrong? 23 00:01:31,175 --> 00:01:34,209 Freeman: And the hanoi jailer who seems blind to it. 24 00:01:34,879 --> 00:01:37,212 Duyet: John mccain was my friend. 25 00:01:37,314 --> 00:01:39,882 Freeman: I'll learn about purging sin from a corpse... 26 00:01:39,984 --> 00:01:42,568 Dafydd: They would lay this directly on the dead body and then eat it. 27 00:01:44,071 --> 00:01:46,038 Freeman: And ask if the biggest sins... 28 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:48,207 Tomas: So your grandfather was the one in auschwitz? 29 00:01:48,309 --> 00:01:49,875 Rainer: The master of hell. 30 00:01:49,977 --> 00:01:52,277 Freeman: Can ever be forgiven. 31 00:02:04,475 --> 00:02:07,576 Every year, on good Friday in the philippines, 32 00:02:07,678 --> 00:02:10,612 the people of the town of san pedro reenact 33 00:02:10,714 --> 00:02:13,565 the passion of christ. 34 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:24,676 They parade a man, portraying jesus, to a small hill, where they nail him to a cross, 35 00:02:25,646 --> 00:02:30,149 using real nails, and crucify him. 36 00:02:40,744 --> 00:02:45,047 But that's not the only aspect of christ's agony they recreate. 37 00:02:49,336 --> 00:02:51,503 Many villagers whip themselves, 38 00:02:51,605 --> 00:02:55,307 just as the bible says roman soldiers whipped jesus. 39 00:02:56,810 --> 00:03:00,812 Sharp pieces of bamboo make sure the whips draw plenty of blood. 40 00:03:06,971 --> 00:03:12,407 What could drive shopkeepers and taxi drivers to take up such a bloody ritual? 41 00:03:16,647 --> 00:03:20,749 The answer lies across the globe in perugia, Italy. 42 00:03:24,238 --> 00:03:28,440 I'm meeting historian, roberto rusconi, at the church of san bevignate. 43 00:03:35,649 --> 00:03:40,535 Inside frescoes from nearly 800 years ago tell the strange story 44 00:03:40,638 --> 00:03:44,239 of how self-flagellation went viral. 45 00:03:45,609 --> 00:03:49,945 Roberto: You see here, they made a representation of the flagellants. 46 00:03:51,248 --> 00:03:54,833 They are scourging themselves naked to the waist. 47 00:03:55,669 --> 00:03:59,671 The monks in the monasteries, they used to make this kind of penance, 48 00:03:59,773 --> 00:04:03,575 to wash away every sin in your soul. 49 00:04:04,278 --> 00:04:08,647 Freeman: But what made them think that flagellation would make them right with god? 50 00:04:08,749 --> 00:04:12,067 Roberto: We have to make expiation for our sins, 51 00:04:12,169 --> 00:04:15,170 and the only way is scourge ourselves, 52 00:04:15,272 --> 00:04:18,941 and be beaten as jesus christ was beaten. 53 00:04:19,376 --> 00:04:22,311 Our souls, as you know, have the original sin and 54 00:04:22,413 --> 00:04:25,981 you have to wash away every part of it in your soul. 55 00:04:26,083 --> 00:04:28,333 Freeman: And you have to wash it with your own blood? 56 00:04:28,435 --> 00:04:31,870 Roberto: Yes. It was more effective than soap. 57 00:04:37,911 --> 00:04:40,812 Freeman: The christian concept of original sin began when 58 00:04:40,914 --> 00:04:44,266 adam and eve ate from the forbidden tree. 59 00:04:47,237 --> 00:04:50,906 Their defiance of god corrupted the entire human race, 60 00:04:51,108 --> 00:04:55,277 making sin something even devout monks must purge through penance. 61 00:05:01,935 --> 00:05:06,271 But the walls of san bevignate reveal something more, 62 00:05:07,308 --> 00:05:10,208 how flagellation spread from the monastery 63 00:05:10,311 --> 00:05:13,111 to the everyday believer. 64 00:05:13,747 --> 00:05:16,214 Roberto: So, in the corner, you see their representation 65 00:05:16,317 --> 00:05:19,134 to be the image of raniero fasani. 66 00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:21,103 Freeman: Raniero fasani. 67 00:05:21,205 --> 00:05:24,106 Roberto: Raniero fasani's a normal person, a lay person. 68 00:05:24,208 --> 00:05:27,809 He had visions when our lady appeared to him. 69 00:05:31,782 --> 00:05:35,917 Freeman: Fasani had taken up the practice of self-flagellation. 70 00:05:41,675 --> 00:05:46,511 Then, in 1260, he had a vision of the virgin mary. 71 00:05:50,084 --> 00:05:55,003 She told him that the common people, like him, needed to purge their sins through a 72 00:05:55,105 --> 00:05:58,407 great public flagellation. 73 00:05:59,009 --> 00:06:03,045 Fasani began urging the perugians to whip themselves. 74 00:06:07,634 --> 00:06:10,001 The holy mother came to him and said, 75 00:06:10,104 --> 00:06:13,939 "listen, this is not just for monks, this is for everybody. 76 00:06:14,041 --> 00:06:15,874 You gotta go back and tell them, 77 00:06:15,976 --> 00:06:17,709 'get out there and start whipping.'" 78 00:06:17,811 --> 00:06:20,962 roberto: Yes. Don't rely on monks, do it yourself. 79 00:06:22,082 --> 00:06:23,865 Freeman: So fasani has his vision. 80 00:06:23,967 --> 00:06:29,071 He comes in and he explains it, and people followed him? 81 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,774 Roberto: So, he was followed by a lot of people in town and countryside, 82 00:06:32,876 --> 00:06:38,080 and they started scourging, as he suggested, and it became a practice for lay people. 83 00:06:38,882 --> 00:06:43,301 It went out from the walls of the churches and it entered the square. 84 00:06:48,709 --> 00:06:52,477 And it happened here in perugia, in the year 1260. 85 00:06:54,982 --> 00:06:58,467 This place was crowded with thousands of people. 86 00:06:58,569 --> 00:06:59,668 Freeman: All flagellating? 87 00:06:59,770 --> 00:07:01,503 Roberto: All flagellating. 88 00:07:01,605 --> 00:07:03,038 Freeman: They're drawing blood? 89 00:07:03,140 --> 00:07:05,941 So, the square would have been covered with blood, right? 90 00:07:06,026 --> 00:07:08,343 Roberto: Yes. 91 00:07:08,445 --> 00:07:11,413 Freeman: As catastrophes like the black death swept across europe, 92 00:07:11,515 --> 00:07:14,666 so did mass flagellations. 93 00:07:15,102 --> 00:07:20,472 Believers thought that bloody penance would bring salvation in this life and the next. 94 00:07:22,009 --> 00:07:28,246 So, we're literally standing in the square where sin went viral? 95 00:07:28,348 --> 00:07:29,614 Roberto: Yes. 96 00:07:29,716 --> 00:07:31,233 Freeman: It just spread out. 97 00:07:45,883 --> 00:07:51,536 Freeman: It seems to me there was a deep human desire to take action against sin, 98 00:07:52,072 --> 00:07:55,340 sometimes by beating ourselves up. 99 00:07:56,143 --> 00:08:00,011 But to the catholic faithful, flagellation was something more than that. 100 00:08:00,948 --> 00:08:03,615 It was a way to share the burdens of jesus, 101 00:08:03,717 --> 00:08:07,802 whom they believed died to wipe away the sins of humanity. 102 00:08:08,805 --> 00:08:12,574 It does what penance is supposed to do, 103 00:08:12,676 --> 00:08:15,660 bring us closer to god. 104 00:08:23,704 --> 00:08:27,138 But what if a sinner doesn't do penance? 105 00:08:27,808 --> 00:08:31,009 Is there another way back to god? 106 00:08:42,206 --> 00:08:47,342 In the misty borderlands of England and wales, there once was a way. 107 00:08:53,483 --> 00:08:57,502 Journalist, sal masekela, has come to the village of ratlinghope, 108 00:08:57,604 --> 00:09:01,806 to learn about the lost tradition of sin-eating. 109 00:09:12,769 --> 00:09:16,304 Dafydd mills daniels is a religious scholar and theologian. 110 00:09:16,406 --> 00:09:17,772 Sal: Hey. Dafydd: Hello. 111 00:09:17,874 --> 00:09:18,974 Sal: How are you? I'm sal. 112 00:09:19,076 --> 00:09:20,208 Dafydd: How are you? Nice to meet you. 113 00:09:20,310 --> 00:09:21,743 Sal: Dafydd? Dafydd: Yes, dafydd. Yeah. 114 00:09:21,845 --> 00:09:23,712 Sal: This is a beautiful country. 115 00:09:23,814 --> 00:09:25,380 Dafydd: Yeah. 116 00:09:25,515 --> 00:09:27,632 And we brought you here because this is the home, or would have been the home, 117 00:09:27,734 --> 00:09:31,002 of the very last sin-eater in England, a man called richard munslow, 118 00:09:31,104 --> 00:09:33,104 who died in 1906. 119 00:09:33,206 --> 00:09:36,241 Freeman: Munslow was a prosperous farmer for much of his life, 120 00:09:36,343 --> 00:09:40,979 but he died performing bizarre rituals with the dead. 121 00:09:45,068 --> 00:09:48,336 Sal: Sin-eating. What exactly does that mean? 122 00:09:48,438 --> 00:09:51,273 Dafydd: Well, sin-eating was a practice prevalent in this area, 123 00:09:51,375 --> 00:09:53,608 England-wales border, about 500 years ago. 124 00:09:53,710 --> 00:09:55,844 It started to die out in the 19th century. 125 00:09:55,946 --> 00:09:59,881 And it was a practice that involved people taking on other people's sins. 126 00:09:59,983 --> 00:10:01,967 Sal: And where does the eating part come in? 127 00:10:02,069 --> 00:10:03,768 Dafydd: Ah, right, it's a good question. 128 00:10:03,904 --> 00:10:05,971 Why don't we go into the barn and get some things, and I'll show you how that worked? 129 00:10:06,073 --> 00:10:08,640 Sal: Alright, cool. 130 00:10:10,377 --> 00:10:13,578 Dafydd: Okay, let's see if this is open. 131 00:10:15,983 --> 00:10:18,066 Yeah, so here we are in munslow's barn. 132 00:10:18,168 --> 00:10:20,568 Sal: Wow! 133 00:10:22,773 --> 00:10:24,139 Dafydd: Why don't you grab hold of... 134 00:10:24,241 --> 00:10:25,340 Sal: These chairs? 135 00:10:25,442 --> 00:10:28,410 Dafydd: Yeah. And I'll take this board. 136 00:10:29,046 --> 00:10:31,413 So why don't you put those chairs out there. 137 00:10:31,615 --> 00:10:33,214 Sal: Okay. 138 00:10:33,317 --> 00:10:35,233 Dafydd: So when you had a sudden death, 139 00:10:35,335 --> 00:10:38,203 and so it hadn't been possible for a priest to come to the house 140 00:10:38,305 --> 00:10:41,906 for the person who died, and they'd sort of be considered to die in a state of sin, 141 00:10:42,009 --> 00:10:46,044 then the family may well have called a sin-eater. 142 00:10:46,146 --> 00:10:47,312 Okay? 143 00:10:47,414 --> 00:10:48,913 Sal: What have you got there? 144 00:10:49,016 --> 00:10:51,833 Dafydd: Well this is some of the paraphernalia of a sin-eater. 145 00:10:52,269 --> 00:10:54,703 And what they used were things like this. 146 00:10:54,805 --> 00:10:58,373 So they would have a wooden plate, a wooden bowl, 147 00:10:59,776 --> 00:11:03,878 some bread, and some salt. 148 00:11:09,036 --> 00:11:12,871 So, you'd have this process, usually outside the house. 149 00:11:14,341 --> 00:11:17,509 The body would be laid out. 150 00:11:19,246 --> 00:11:24,866 They would take out the salt, put it in the plate, put the bread on top of it 151 00:11:25,569 --> 00:11:29,270 and then actually lay this directly on the dead body. 152 00:11:32,642 --> 00:11:36,845 Where a sin-eater would lift it up and eat it. 153 00:11:50,911 --> 00:11:53,745 They also consumed liquid, as well as bread. 154 00:11:53,847 --> 00:11:57,048 So in some places milk, but also beer. 155 00:11:57,150 --> 00:11:59,768 And we'd pour it into the bowl. 156 00:11:59,870 --> 00:12:03,071 And again, the sin-eater would lift it directly from the body. 157 00:12:05,575 --> 00:12:08,343 At the end of the ceremony of sin-eating, the sin-eater would have said, 158 00:12:08,445 --> 00:12:11,813 "I give easement and rest now to thee, come not down the lanes or in our meadows, 159 00:12:11,915 --> 00:12:14,299 and for thy peace I pawn mine own soul." 160 00:12:14,401 --> 00:12:15,967 sal: Mmmmm. 161 00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:19,437 Translation: Ghosts, please don't hang out here. 162 00:12:19,539 --> 00:12:21,606 Dafydd: Exactly, yeah. 163 00:12:21,708 --> 00:12:26,511 Sal: Why would they think then that food, milk, beer 164 00:12:26,613 --> 00:12:31,199 would be a process to absolve someone of their sins? 165 00:12:31,301 --> 00:12:32,600 Dafydd: Yeah. 166 00:12:32,736 --> 00:12:35,303 Here we had this idea of sin being its own entity or substance. 167 00:12:35,405 --> 00:12:38,406 The sin of this other person has been transferred into the food 168 00:12:38,508 --> 00:12:40,442 and then into the sin-eater themselves. 169 00:12:40,544 --> 00:12:42,610 When a soul is weighed down by sin, it's burdened. 170 00:12:42,712 --> 00:12:45,997 It has difficulty in the afterlife, gets caught between heaven and earth, 171 00:12:46,082 --> 00:12:47,832 and can come back as a ghost. 172 00:12:47,934 --> 00:12:50,201 Sal: Mmmm. 173 00:12:50,303 --> 00:12:54,005 What type of person would become a sin-eater? 174 00:12:54,191 --> 00:12:56,374 Dafydd: Well, usually desperately poor. 175 00:12:56,476 --> 00:12:59,911 So, essentially what you have here is people selling the only thing they have of value, 176 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,714 which is their own soul. 177 00:13:03,250 --> 00:13:06,034 This person sells his own soul, but then he stops the community being affected and 178 00:13:06,136 --> 00:13:09,571 disturbed by this dead person's soul coming back. 179 00:13:11,374 --> 00:13:15,076 Freeman: But if sin-eating was an act of desperation for the destitute, 180 00:13:17,647 --> 00:13:20,248 why did a successful farmer like richard munslow 181 00:13:20,350 --> 00:13:22,767 choose to dine over the dead? 182 00:13:38,201 --> 00:13:41,803 Freeman: This rugged borderland between England and wales 183 00:13:41,905 --> 00:13:45,006 was the scene of many battles over the centuries, 184 00:13:45,575 --> 00:13:49,844 and it's a place with a rich tradition of ghost stories. 185 00:13:53,149 --> 00:13:56,434 Sal masekela and historian, dafydd mills daniels, 186 00:13:56,536 --> 00:13:59,904 are on the trail of England's last known sin-eater, 187 00:14:01,141 --> 00:14:07,478 a man whose job was to rid the dead of sin and purge the land of ghosts. 188 00:14:10,617 --> 00:14:12,901 Dafydd: Here we are at richard munslow's tombstone. 189 00:14:13,003 --> 00:14:14,335 Sal: This is his actual gravesite? 190 00:14:14,437 --> 00:14:15,570 Dafydd: Yeah. This is it. 191 00:14:15,672 --> 00:14:16,905 Sal: Wow! 192 00:14:17,007 --> 00:14:19,641 Dafydd: So this is the final sin-eater. 193 00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:22,777 Sal: And there you see his family, his children. 194 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:24,078 Dafydd: Yeah. 195 00:14:24,180 --> 00:14:25,914 Sal: Four children. 196 00:14:26,016 --> 00:14:29,868 Wow, this gives more of a sense of him as a person. 197 00:14:29,970 --> 00:14:31,502 Dafydd: Yeah, it does. 198 00:14:31,638 --> 00:14:35,473 Sal: And you mentioned earlier that usually it was poor people that chose to 199 00:14:35,575 --> 00:14:40,445 practice this, almost out of necessity, not necessarily choice. 200 00:14:40,947 --> 00:14:46,634 Munslow was a farmer, a family man, it seemed like he was fairly successful. 201 00:14:46,736 --> 00:14:50,104 Why would he choose this? 202 00:14:50,206 --> 00:14:53,141 Dafydd: Yeah, it is a curious choice, isn't it, particularly for someone like munslow. 203 00:14:53,243 --> 00:14:56,811 The basic motivation he seems to have had is that his children died quite suddenly. 204 00:14:59,482 --> 00:15:05,737 Freeman: Three of munslow's young children took sick and died in a single week in 1870. 205 00:15:08,909 --> 00:15:13,511 Dafydd believes munslow may have linked his personal tragedy to the notion that 206 00:15:13,613 --> 00:15:17,382 unforgiven sins were haunting the village. 207 00:15:17,867 --> 00:15:19,701 Dafydd: This fear about the souls from the dead 208 00:15:19,803 --> 00:15:22,036 coming back to haunt their own society. 209 00:15:22,138 --> 00:15:26,140 What the sin-eater was doing was saving society from negative consequences of sin. 210 00:15:26,242 --> 00:15:30,961 Sal: So while they were viewed somewhat as a pariah, within the community, 211 00:15:31,047 --> 00:15:33,748 there's also the sense of this is a value. 212 00:15:33,817 --> 00:15:35,566 Dafydd: Right. Yes. 213 00:15:35,702 --> 00:15:38,369 Christ, taking on the sins of the world, but he has to die for that atonement to happen. 214 00:15:38,471 --> 00:15:40,738 And so munslow, he's agreed to be damned. 215 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,642 Munslow seemed to have viewed it as this act of self-sacrificial love. 216 00:15:50,583 --> 00:15:56,004 Freeman: Personal tragedy led richard munslow to become the last sin-eater. 217 00:15:56,940 --> 00:16:00,975 Bereft by the loss of his children, he sacrificed his soul 218 00:16:01,077 --> 00:16:04,345 to save the soul of his community. 219 00:16:04,447 --> 00:16:08,967 He provided grieving families with a sense of peace that he himself would never know. 220 00:16:10,136 --> 00:16:15,840 For someone already so heavily burdened, it was an incredibly noble act. 221 00:16:26,036 --> 00:16:29,737 Christians believe that we must reckon with our sins on judgment day. 222 00:16:30,306 --> 00:16:35,476 But does that day come in heaven, or down here on earth? 223 00:16:40,350 --> 00:16:43,034 I'm meeting jerry givens... 224 00:16:43,136 --> 00:16:45,603 Man, this is a lovely place. 225 00:16:45,705 --> 00:16:48,139 Jerry: It is. Beautiful. 226 00:16:50,643 --> 00:16:54,812 Freeman: A man who has always been a firm believer in god... 227 00:16:54,914 --> 00:16:58,633 Jerry: This is god's creation, these trees, aw, look at the beauty. 228 00:17:01,371 --> 00:17:06,007 Freeman: And who spent 17 years as executioner for the state of virginia. 229 00:17:10,580 --> 00:17:14,832 I want to understand how a man can take another man's life 230 00:17:14,934 --> 00:17:18,236 and not believe he's committed a sin. 231 00:17:19,773 --> 00:17:23,074 How many different ways of execution did you take part in? 232 00:17:23,176 --> 00:17:27,478 Jerry: It was 25 by electrocution, 233 00:17:28,515 --> 00:17:31,099 and 37 by lethal injection. 234 00:17:31,201 --> 00:17:33,367 Freeman: You executed... Jerry: 62 people. 235 00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:36,137 Freeman: Personally? Jerry: 62 people. 236 00:17:36,339 --> 00:17:37,939 Freeman: How did you feel? 237 00:17:38,041 --> 00:17:40,608 I mean, what kind of adjustments did you have to make, 238 00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:43,411 mentally or emotionally? 239 00:17:43,513 --> 00:17:46,881 Jerry: Well, before each execution I would pray. 240 00:17:46,983 --> 00:17:49,200 Freeman: You would pray? Jerry: Mm-hm. 241 00:17:49,302 --> 00:17:53,838 I received the condemned 15 days before I kill him. 242 00:17:57,010 --> 00:18:03,414 During that 15 day period, I'm trying to prepare him for his next destination. 243 00:18:04,601 --> 00:18:07,468 For electrocution, you had to shave the head. 244 00:18:07,570 --> 00:18:10,705 So I would put my hand on his head and I would pray silently to him. 245 00:18:10,807 --> 00:18:12,607 And we used to get on our knees. 246 00:18:12,709 --> 00:18:15,777 "now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the lord my soul to keep. 247 00:18:15,879 --> 00:18:20,248 If I should die before I wake, I pray the lord my soul to take." 248 00:18:20,717 --> 00:18:23,835 freeman: Yeah. I know that. 249 00:18:23,937 --> 00:18:27,238 Jerry: So these guys are gonna die before they wake. 250 00:18:30,110 --> 00:18:32,310 Freeman: Did you think what you were doing was a sin? 251 00:18:32,412 --> 00:18:36,881 Jerry: That's when I first started, nah, not really, because... 252 00:18:36,983 --> 00:18:39,033 What I used to say, morgan, I say, well, 253 00:18:39,135 --> 00:18:43,404 god, these people don't deserve to live for what they done to other people. 254 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,975 They should have to suffer for what they done. 255 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,348 I'll give you an example of one of the crimes that this guy committed. 256 00:18:54,450 --> 00:18:56,968 There was an 86 year old woman. 257 00:18:57,070 --> 00:19:00,838 He nailed her feet to the wooden floor, and nailed her hands to the chair, 258 00:19:01,307 --> 00:19:04,809 and poured gasoline on her house and set it on fire. 259 00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:07,678 You know? 260 00:19:07,814 --> 00:19:12,266 And to me, does this guy deserve to live after doing this to another human being? 261 00:19:15,772 --> 00:19:18,172 Freeman: And it's in the bible, "eye for an eye." 262 00:19:18,274 --> 00:19:20,842 but it also says, "thou shalt not..." 263 00:19:20,944 --> 00:19:23,044 jerry: Kill. 264 00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:28,266 Freeman: How do we come to terms with two opposites there? 265 00:19:28,368 --> 00:19:33,237 Jerry: Because, morgan, inside of each human being lives a thing called 'death'. 266 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,973 You understand? 267 00:19:36,075 --> 00:19:38,609 It can't sentence you to death, you're already sentenced to death! 268 00:19:38,711 --> 00:19:41,512 God said you're gonna die. 269 00:19:42,315 --> 00:19:44,999 Freeman: But jerry's conviction that he was doing god's will 270 00:19:45,101 --> 00:19:47,835 was eventually shaken. 271 00:19:47,937 --> 00:19:49,804 Jerry: God brought earl washington to me. 272 00:19:49,906 --> 00:19:51,472 Freeman: Who is earl washington? 273 00:19:51,574 --> 00:19:53,841 Jerry: Earl washington was a man on death row. 274 00:19:53,943 --> 00:19:57,578 He was innocent, but he was sentenced to death for a crime that he didn't commit. 275 00:19:58,181 --> 00:20:02,033 Freeman: In 1993, earl washington became the first man ever exonerated 276 00:20:02,135 --> 00:20:06,137 from virginia's death row, by dna evidence. 277 00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:12,944 Back in 1985, jerry had come within nine days of carrying out his execution. 278 00:20:14,447 --> 00:20:17,148 Jerry: But when one man is found innocent... 279 00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:19,433 Freeman: It cast doubt on the whole system. 280 00:20:19,535 --> 00:20:21,269 Jerry: That's right, on the whole system. 281 00:20:21,404 --> 00:20:25,606 In all of my prayers I will always ask god to never allow me to execute an innocent man, 282 00:20:25,708 --> 00:20:28,643 'cause I didn't want to be in the position to take an innocent life. 283 00:20:28,745 --> 00:20:31,779 Freeman: So now you're in serious doubt about what you do. 284 00:20:31,881 --> 00:20:33,314 Am I right about that? 285 00:20:33,416 --> 00:20:36,300 Jerry: Yeah. It put doubt here. 286 00:20:36,402 --> 00:20:39,604 It put doubt in the executioner. 287 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:43,207 Freeman: Despite his growing doubt, jerry continued his work 288 00:20:43,309 --> 00:20:46,978 as executioner for several years. 289 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,249 Then, in 1999, jerry helped a friend buy a car 290 00:20:51,367 --> 00:20:54,368 with what proved to be drug money. 291 00:20:55,505 --> 00:20:59,373 He was convicted of money laundering and lying to a grand jury, 292 00:20:59,742 --> 00:21:02,209 and went to prison. 293 00:21:02,412 --> 00:21:08,299 Even though he still claims innocence, he sees this moment not as a fall from grace, 294 00:21:09,769 --> 00:21:13,571 but as his salvation from sin. 295 00:21:14,774 --> 00:21:18,843 Jerry: When this happened, god told me afterwards say, 296 00:21:18,945 --> 00:21:21,545 "well, I brought earl washington to you, 297 00:21:21,648 --> 00:21:24,382 I answered your prayer, but you didn't leave." 298 00:21:24,484 --> 00:21:29,270 so god said, "well, if you wanna do that, I'll bring this here case against you. 299 00:21:29,372 --> 00:21:32,606 I will make sure that you will leave." 300 00:21:33,309 --> 00:21:38,646 I went to prison, for 57 month, and that's what helped me change my mind. 301 00:21:40,383 --> 00:21:42,300 Freeman: If I offered you the job now? 302 00:21:42,402 --> 00:21:43,968 Jerry: No, I wouldn't do it. 303 00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:45,436 Freeman: Why not? 304 00:21:45,538 --> 00:21:49,006 Jerry: Because I've learned that innocent people be executed. 305 00:21:49,108 --> 00:21:51,509 The court system is not great, right? 306 00:21:51,611 --> 00:21:53,077 It's not fair. 307 00:21:53,179 --> 00:21:55,980 Freeman: You will not tell me that, because it's a sin? 308 00:21:56,082 --> 00:21:58,532 Jerry: It is a sin. It is, it's a sin to kill. 309 00:21:59,502 --> 00:22:02,603 Freeman: After jerry was released in 2004, 310 00:22:02,705 --> 00:22:06,374 he became an anti-death penalty activist. 311 00:22:06,476 --> 00:22:09,377 He has traveled around the world trying to educate people 312 00:22:09,479 --> 00:22:13,381 about alternatives to capital punishment. 313 00:22:16,235 --> 00:22:21,005 Jerry: Why do we have to kill a person to show that killing is wrong? 314 00:22:24,010 --> 00:22:27,945 If I cut this finger, do I have to cut this finger to stop the bleeding? 315 00:22:28,047 --> 00:22:30,214 No. 316 00:22:30,316 --> 00:22:32,133 Freeman: That's just compounding the error. 317 00:22:32,235 --> 00:22:33,567 Jerry: Yeah. 318 00:22:33,703 --> 00:22:35,603 You know, we all have sinned and come short of the glory of god, 319 00:22:35,705 --> 00:22:37,705 we all, as humans. 320 00:22:37,807 --> 00:22:39,774 We live in a simple world. 321 00:22:39,876 --> 00:22:44,412 Why do I continue to sin over and over and over, if I know it's wrong? 322 00:22:49,469 --> 00:22:52,870 Freeman: How can we know what's right and what's wrong? 323 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,007 You can avoid the seven deadly sins, 324 00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:59,910 you can follow the ten commandments, 325 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:03,514 but the bible rules aren't clear in every situation. 326 00:23:05,668 --> 00:23:10,571 Jerry found himself caught between, "an eye for an eye," 327 00:23:11,207 --> 00:23:14,275 and "thou shalt not kill", 328 00:23:15,344 --> 00:23:19,313 and stuck in a moral dilemma over life and death. 329 00:23:22,135 --> 00:23:25,503 What he did, maybe that's what we all need to do, 330 00:23:26,205 --> 00:23:29,173 wrestle with ourselves and our faith, 331 00:23:29,275 --> 00:23:32,643 to do what we believe is right. 332 00:23:39,335 --> 00:23:43,037 But this struggle doesn't have to be morose or solitary. 333 00:23:45,675 --> 00:23:48,409 In fact, it can be a celebration. 334 00:24:01,841 --> 00:24:06,110 Freeman: I'm in london, home to nearly half a million hindus, 335 00:24:09,882 --> 00:24:13,400 to experience diwali, the hindu new year. 336 00:24:14,837 --> 00:24:19,240 This five-day festival of light celebrates the triumph of good over evil, 337 00:24:20,009 --> 00:24:24,044 and the wiping away of bad deeds from the previous year. 338 00:24:27,984 --> 00:24:31,402 I'm visiting tarun and jaymin patel and their family... 339 00:24:31,504 --> 00:24:34,972 Jaymin: Oh, welcome! Namaste. Freeman: Namaste. 340 00:24:35,374 --> 00:24:39,210 To learn more about this ancient tradition. 341 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:47,568 Thank you so much for inviting us into your home. 342 00:24:48,137 --> 00:24:50,337 Tell me about your celebration. 343 00:24:50,439 --> 00:24:52,573 Tarun: Diwali is an annual festival. 344 00:24:52,675 --> 00:24:55,709 Jaymin: It's the biggest festival of the year in hindu calendar. 345 00:24:56,879 --> 00:25:00,381 We do a big family dinner. 346 00:25:00,550 --> 00:25:05,402 It means all our family get together and we all eat lots of food. 347 00:25:09,609 --> 00:25:13,344 Tarun: But the greatest thing of all is that during diwali, it's important that we also 348 00:25:13,446 --> 00:25:16,580 remember god, and we keep him central. 349 00:25:16,682 --> 00:25:19,300 Freeman: Diwali centers around the story of a beautiful princess 350 00:25:19,402 --> 00:25:24,071 called sita, an avatar of the goddess lakshmi. 351 00:25:25,908 --> 00:25:31,045 She was kidnapped and imprisoned, by a many-headed demon king 352 00:25:31,147 --> 00:25:36,300 called ravana, backed by an army of demons. 353 00:25:38,204 --> 00:25:42,873 But sita's husband, lord ram, an avatar of vishnu, 354 00:25:42,975 --> 00:25:46,277 came to rescue his wife. 355 00:25:47,813 --> 00:25:52,099 Armed with his bow, he took on ravana's demon army. 356 00:25:55,071 --> 00:25:57,838 With one final arrow... 357 00:26:02,111 --> 00:26:07,681 He slayed ravana, and freed his beloved wife. 358 00:26:10,503 --> 00:26:13,837 Hindu tradition says that ram and sita's subjects 359 00:26:13,940 --> 00:26:17,775 lit oil lamps to guide the couple back to their kingdom, 360 00:26:20,079 --> 00:26:24,965 representing the triumph of good over the darkness of evil. 361 00:26:27,937 --> 00:26:31,538 Jaymin: It is festival of light, but we're welcoming you, god, come in. 362 00:26:31,657 --> 00:26:34,174 It's like ram came that time. 363 00:26:34,277 --> 00:26:39,079 We light candles everywhere, and we believe that the evil from us, 364 00:26:39,181 --> 00:26:43,300 the darkness from us, we should remove and bring the light, 365 00:26:43,402 --> 00:26:45,636 the good things, from everybody. 366 00:26:45,738 --> 00:26:47,104 Freeman: That's perfect. 367 00:26:47,206 --> 00:26:49,506 Tarun: Ram was a symbol of righteousness. 368 00:26:49,609 --> 00:26:54,178 He was the ideal father, the ideal son, the ideal brother, the ideal husband. 369 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,800 So those things over diwali, as hindus we will reflect on, and we will try and be that on 370 00:26:59,902 --> 00:27:04,038 a personal level, as much as we can, for as long as we can. 371 00:27:04,707 --> 00:27:08,075 Jaymin: If you reflect back, you will realize that you committed sin. 372 00:27:08,177 --> 00:27:09,977 That is what diwali is about. 373 00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:12,012 Freeman: Gotcha. 374 00:27:14,283 --> 00:27:16,900 Tarun: It's the opportunity to forgive and forget. 375 00:27:17,003 --> 00:27:18,402 Freeman: Do you manage that? 376 00:27:18,504 --> 00:27:20,671 Tarun: We try. 377 00:27:21,307 --> 00:27:23,974 Forgive, yes; forget, perhaps not. 378 00:27:25,678 --> 00:27:27,411 Freeman: Ah yes, I gotcha. 379 00:27:27,513 --> 00:27:28,579 Okay. 380 00:27:28,681 --> 00:27:30,648 There is sin and karma. 381 00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:32,132 Are they compatible? 382 00:27:32,234 --> 00:27:33,867 Do they sort of mean the same thing? 383 00:27:33,969 --> 00:27:36,804 Tarun: Karma is the good things that you do. 384 00:27:36,906 --> 00:27:39,139 You accumulate good karma. 385 00:27:39,241 --> 00:27:43,177 And bad things that you do in life, you accumulate bad karma. 386 00:27:43,779 --> 00:27:48,015 So the idea is to make the good karma bigger than the bad karma. 387 00:27:48,117 --> 00:27:52,069 Freeman: You really want to weigh heavily on the good and try your best to... 388 00:27:52,171 --> 00:27:56,306 Tarun: Get to moksha, which is the salvation of the soul. 389 00:27:57,076 --> 00:28:03,213 And the karma dictates how fast or slow you go towards moksha. 390 00:28:03,883 --> 00:28:06,333 It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. 391 00:28:06,435 --> 00:28:10,070 So, we've gotta be patient and we've gotta persevere. 392 00:28:10,172 --> 00:28:13,974 But with faith as your light, you will get there. 393 00:28:14,093 --> 00:28:17,177 Freeman: You just explained a lot of stuff with that one sentence. 394 00:28:17,279 --> 00:28:19,213 Thank you. 395 00:28:19,315 --> 00:28:21,799 Jaymin: You're welcome. 396 00:28:23,636 --> 00:28:26,970 Freeman: After celebrating at home, this third and most important day of 397 00:28:27,073 --> 00:28:30,607 diwali culminates with families going to the temple. 398 00:28:37,717 --> 00:28:41,602 The rituals done in the home are performed again as a community, 399 00:28:41,804 --> 00:28:44,371 on a much grander scale. 400 00:29:03,576 --> 00:29:08,712 The last ritual of the evening is the ultimate display of light overcoming darkness, 401 00:29:12,117 --> 00:29:15,135 clearing away the bad karma of the past year, 402 00:29:15,237 --> 00:29:19,006 and lighting the way toward the liberation of the soul. 403 00:29:33,105 --> 00:29:36,840 Just like the yearly cleansing of the monsoon rains in india, 404 00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:41,145 diwali is a time for hindus to clean up their karma, 405 00:29:41,247 --> 00:29:44,982 to renew their efforts to avoid the temptations of selfishness, 406 00:29:46,535 --> 00:29:50,838 to keep working on moksha, or liberation. 407 00:29:52,808 --> 00:29:54,975 We all make mistakes in judgment. 408 00:29:55,711 --> 00:30:00,047 Our conscience, often guided by faith, leads us to correct them. 409 00:30:01,183 --> 00:30:04,168 But faith can also drive us to commit sins, 410 00:30:04,270 --> 00:30:07,037 and believe we have done nothing wrong. 411 00:30:26,509 --> 00:30:30,511 Freeman: The christian idea of sin has shaped how western civilization 412 00:30:30,613 --> 00:30:33,780 grapples with questions of right and wrong. 413 00:30:40,539 --> 00:30:44,308 But I want to understand sin from a different perspective. 414 00:30:45,177 --> 00:30:47,644 So I've come to vietnam, 415 00:30:49,682 --> 00:30:53,267 a country with three overlapping religious traditions: 416 00:30:53,502 --> 00:30:57,771 Confucianism, taoism and buddhism. 417 00:31:05,114 --> 00:31:09,148 This country was devastated by war for much of the 20th century. 418 00:31:10,002 --> 00:31:13,370 Sin is an inevitable part of war. 419 00:31:14,340 --> 00:31:18,542 American bombing campaigns killed tens of thousands of civilians. 420 00:31:20,613 --> 00:31:24,581 Vietcong executed tens of thousands of south vietnamese villagers, 421 00:31:24,917 --> 00:31:28,635 and were infamous for torturing captured americans. 422 00:31:33,175 --> 00:31:37,611 Here, in hanoi, the hoa lo prison held hundreds of american pows, 423 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,448 they knew it as the hanoi hilton. 424 00:31:46,872 --> 00:31:50,107 I'm meeting tran trong duyet, the former director, 425 00:31:50,209 --> 00:31:53,644 to understand how he looks back on those days now. 426 00:31:53,746 --> 00:31:55,512 Mr. Duyet, so nice to meet you. 427 00:31:55,614 --> 00:31:56,947 Duyet: And you. 428 00:31:57,049 --> 00:31:58,999 Freeman: So, this is the famous hanoi hilton? 429 00:31:59,101 --> 00:32:00,601 You worked here? 430 00:32:06,609 --> 00:32:08,141 Freeman: I'd like to talk to you some more about that. 431 00:32:08,243 --> 00:32:10,811 Let's go and sit down and talk. Okay? 432 00:32:12,047 --> 00:32:16,566 Perhaps the most famous prisoner at hoa lo was a young john mccain, 433 00:32:19,605 --> 00:32:24,775 who was taken there in 1967, after he was shot down over north vietnam. 434 00:32:26,245 --> 00:32:29,646 Mccain never fully recovered from the physical and mental 435 00:32:29,748 --> 00:32:33,200 torture he suffered at the hands of his captors. 436 00:32:41,710 --> 00:32:44,778 Now, that's john mccain, yeah, and that's you, right? 437 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,047 Duyet: Yeah. 438 00:32:47,149 --> 00:32:53,170 Freeman: So, can you share your memories of john mccain with us? 439 00:32:56,942 --> 00:33:01,411 Duyet: What I remember the most was, when we come to meet together 440 00:33:01,513 --> 00:33:05,532 after my working time, and he'd teach me english, 441 00:33:06,135 --> 00:33:08,835 and we talked together, just like friends, 442 00:33:08,937 --> 00:33:12,539 and we had a very kind of, like, friendly relationship. 443 00:33:13,208 --> 00:33:15,275 Freeman: Interesting. 444 00:33:15,344 --> 00:33:17,611 Well mccain says that he was tortured. 445 00:33:17,713 --> 00:33:20,547 Does that fit your recollection? 446 00:33:22,868 --> 00:33:25,969 Duyet: I have to say there was no torture at all. 447 00:33:26,071 --> 00:33:28,038 John mccain was my friend. 448 00:33:28,140 --> 00:33:30,207 Freeman: So you're saying that there was no torture at all. 449 00:33:30,309 --> 00:33:32,609 He was never tortured? 450 00:33:33,679 --> 00:33:37,514 Duyet: 100%, no torture. We save him. 451 00:33:37,616 --> 00:33:42,302 He nearly die when he gone into the lake in hanoi. 452 00:33:42,404 --> 00:33:46,406 And we actually rescue him and cure him. 453 00:33:46,508 --> 00:33:48,809 Freeman: Okay. 454 00:33:48,911 --> 00:33:52,162 Well let me just ask you in a general sense. 455 00:33:52,247 --> 00:33:55,381 Do you have any feelings about that scenario, 456 00:33:55,467 --> 00:33:59,703 where people regret what they did in prison or during war? 457 00:34:04,543 --> 00:34:07,778 Duyet: In the war, of course, there's no other choice. 458 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,982 It's a duty of each soldier to do what they were told. 459 00:34:12,668 --> 00:34:18,538 I am really proud that I tried my best to do the duty to my country. 460 00:34:25,047 --> 00:34:27,614 Freeman: I'm not sure whether mr. Duyet simply 461 00:34:27,716 --> 00:34:30,667 doesn't remember what happened in the war, 462 00:34:30,769 --> 00:34:34,838 whether he's avoiding the truth, or whether his apparent lack of guilt 463 00:34:34,940 --> 00:34:38,608 stems from a difference in cultural perspective. 464 00:34:39,545 --> 00:34:45,082 To gain insight, I'm going to hanoi's confucian temple of literature to meet 465 00:34:45,184 --> 00:34:49,519 dr. Duong ngoc dung, a professor of religious studies. 466 00:34:49,972 --> 00:34:51,238 Dr. Dung, I presume? 467 00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:52,906 Duong: Oh, yeah. Are you mr. Freeman? 468 00:34:53,008 --> 00:34:54,040 Freeman: I am mr. Freeman. 469 00:34:54,143 --> 00:34:55,275 Duong: Okay, please. Please. 470 00:34:55,377 --> 00:34:57,677 Freeman: Thank you. Duong: Okay. 471 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,281 Freeman: Now, I had this conversation with the head of the hanoi hilton. 472 00:35:01,383 --> 00:35:03,200 Duong: Oh yeah, yeah, I know him. 473 00:35:03,302 --> 00:35:06,403 Freeman: Were there some bad things that happened, 474 00:35:06,505 --> 00:35:11,708 and his idea was that if so, it doesn't really matter. 475 00:35:11,910 --> 00:35:13,543 Duong: Because yes, you're a soldier, yes. 476 00:35:13,645 --> 00:35:14,811 Freeman: Yeah. 477 00:35:14,913 --> 00:35:18,115 He's say, soldier to soldier, it's an even deal. 478 00:35:18,217 --> 00:35:19,800 Duong: Okay. 479 00:35:19,935 --> 00:35:23,904 Freeman: Big question is, do the vietnamese look at sin the way we in the west do? 480 00:35:24,773 --> 00:35:28,475 Duong: The dominant religion in vietnam is buddhism, but 481 00:35:28,577 --> 00:35:33,980 the dominant moral education teachings is confucianism. 482 00:35:35,250 --> 00:35:40,070 According to confucian philosophy, we sin because we are not well educated. 483 00:35:41,006 --> 00:35:44,641 There are five cardinal laws of morality. 484 00:35:44,743 --> 00:35:48,678 Number one thing is benevolence, and then righteousness, 485 00:35:49,081 --> 00:35:52,299 trust, wisdom and then social rituals. 486 00:35:53,001 --> 00:35:56,803 Freeman: These five cardinal rules, if I break one 'em, 487 00:35:56,905 --> 00:35:58,738 I haven't done anything as far as god is concerned, 488 00:35:58,841 --> 00:36:02,709 I've actually sinned against society? 489 00:36:02,811 --> 00:36:04,444 Duong: Yeah. Against society, yes. 490 00:36:04,546 --> 00:36:05,745 Freeman: Yeah. 491 00:36:05,848 --> 00:36:08,114 Duong: You destroy your social relationship. 492 00:36:08,217 --> 00:36:10,700 Confucian ethics is very practical. 493 00:36:10,802 --> 00:36:13,303 It is not metaphysical, it is not philosophical. 494 00:36:13,405 --> 00:36:16,540 It just asks us to do something 495 00:36:16,642 --> 00:36:21,011 that we want people to do the same thing to us. 496 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,814 Freeman: Golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 497 00:36:24,917 --> 00:36:26,166 Duong: Exactly. 498 00:36:26,268 --> 00:36:29,336 Freeman: So a good, concise explanation of 499 00:36:29,438 --> 00:36:33,240 confucian philosophy would be what? 500 00:36:33,842 --> 00:36:38,979 Duong: Something like, we should be personally responsible for social harmony. 501 00:36:39,948 --> 00:36:44,167 Freeman: Brings up the question, however, of a whole society going off the rails, 502 00:36:44,236 --> 00:36:46,570 like nazi germany. 503 00:36:46,672 --> 00:36:49,773 The holocaust happened because the community allowed it to happen. 504 00:36:49,875 --> 00:36:51,541 Duong: Yes, of course. 505 00:36:51,643 --> 00:36:56,713 One of the weaknesses of confucian philosophy is that it has put a lot of power on 506 00:36:56,815 --> 00:36:58,882 the role of the king. 507 00:36:58,967 --> 00:37:02,702 So if the king is a good guy, people can benefit. 508 00:37:02,804 --> 00:37:06,039 But if the king is a bad guy, oh my god, everything, you know... 509 00:37:06,141 --> 00:37:07,540 Freeman: Everything goes to pieces. 510 00:37:07,643 --> 00:37:09,576 Duong: Yes, yes, exactly like that. 511 00:37:09,678 --> 00:37:13,313 Freeman: Confucian ethics act like glue holding society together. 512 00:37:14,950 --> 00:37:18,735 But under despotic leaders, or the immense pressure of war, 513 00:37:18,837 --> 00:37:22,405 the confucian mandate to be a good member of society 514 00:37:22,507 --> 00:37:26,209 can blind people to the fundamental morality of their actions, 515 00:37:27,045 --> 00:37:29,646 even in retrospect. 516 00:37:31,350 --> 00:37:36,369 So now let's go back to the idea of mr. Duyet at the prison. 517 00:37:36,972 --> 00:37:43,143 Because, his thinking is that if you're in uniform you're bound to do it, 518 00:37:43,412 --> 00:37:46,046 it doesn't matter what it is. 519 00:37:46,148 --> 00:37:49,065 Duong: Personally, I think he's totally wrong. 520 00:37:49,368 --> 00:37:51,468 I can refuse because I'm human being. 521 00:37:51,570 --> 00:37:53,303 You can think. 522 00:37:53,405 --> 00:37:58,341 Right, confucius, he lives in the perfectibility of human nature. 523 00:37:59,044 --> 00:38:01,911 You should think before you do something, right? 524 00:38:05,183 --> 00:38:08,234 Freeman: Nothing in life is more liberating than to fight 525 00:38:08,337 --> 00:38:11,771 for a cause that is larger than yourself. 526 00:38:11,873 --> 00:38:15,475 Now that might be a bit of confucian wisdom, 527 00:38:15,577 --> 00:38:19,245 but in fact those are the words of senator john mccain. 528 00:38:20,115 --> 00:38:24,267 The confucian tradition of vietnam drives its people 529 00:38:24,369 --> 00:38:28,104 to do what society asks them to do; 530 00:38:28,206 --> 00:38:32,075 but that doesn't mean that its adherents must blindly follow a leader 531 00:38:32,177 --> 00:38:35,211 down a path towards sin. 532 00:38:35,914 --> 00:38:39,632 Confucius would expect us to be well-mannered, 533 00:38:39,735 --> 00:38:44,137 to be trustful, to have a good head and a good heart. 534 00:38:48,310 --> 00:38:51,311 But when society goes off the rails, 535 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,482 and people commit the most heinous of sins, 536 00:38:56,802 --> 00:38:59,235 can there ever be forgiveness? 537 00:39:12,317 --> 00:39:15,168 Freeman: The town of terezin, in the czech republic, is a 538 00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:18,405 memorial to one of the most horrific sins in human history, 539 00:39:22,477 --> 00:39:24,544 the holocaust. 540 00:39:26,748 --> 00:39:30,633 The nazis turned the town into a jewish prison ghetto. 541 00:39:30,736 --> 00:39:35,572 From here, they sent nearly 140,000 jews to extermination camps. 542 00:39:39,511 --> 00:39:43,646 Christianity teaches that all things can be forgiven. 543 00:39:44,816 --> 00:39:48,501 But how do you forgive a sin as monstrous as this? 544 00:39:54,209 --> 00:39:59,179 Rainer hoess is a german activist who has devoted his life 545 00:39:59,281 --> 00:40:02,932 to reckoning with the crimes of the holocaust. 546 00:40:03,935 --> 00:40:08,104 He has come to meet dr. Tomas kraus, a jewish community leader, 547 00:40:08,206 --> 00:40:12,275 to understand the sins that were committed at terezin. 548 00:40:13,278 --> 00:40:14,711 Rainer: Hello. Nice to meet you. 549 00:40:14,813 --> 00:40:16,446 Tomas: Nice to meet you, the same. 550 00:40:16,548 --> 00:40:20,867 Rainer: So, let me know a little bit more about your history here. 551 00:40:22,070 --> 00:40:26,172 Tomas: Here, we are in terezin, and behind us is the ghetto. 552 00:40:27,075 --> 00:40:30,043 The trains were going right into the ghetto, 553 00:40:30,145 --> 00:40:32,345 and the gates closed after the trains. 554 00:40:34,116 --> 00:40:38,101 And then, actually, they took the people out of the ghetto 555 00:40:38,203 --> 00:40:41,104 and they were sending them to auschwitz. 556 00:40:41,973 --> 00:40:43,673 Rainer: So it starts here in terezin, 557 00:40:43,775 --> 00:40:47,510 and it ends up in the way of auschwitz. 558 00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:51,581 Tomas: My father was sent here to terezin with the very first transport. 559 00:40:52,017 --> 00:40:54,968 It was November 1941. 560 00:40:55,770 --> 00:40:58,905 The family of my mother was also affected. 561 00:41:01,576 --> 00:41:04,410 She was from a family with seven children, 562 00:41:04,513 --> 00:41:07,247 and she was the only one who survived. 563 00:41:07,349 --> 00:41:11,301 So we are very emotionally attached to this place. 564 00:41:11,937 --> 00:41:14,637 Rainer: Wow! Oh my goodness. 565 00:41:17,509 --> 00:41:19,642 Tomas: This is the main entrance. 566 00:41:19,744 --> 00:41:21,377 And as you can see, it's black and white. 567 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:22,879 Very symbolic. 568 00:41:22,981 --> 00:41:26,232 Some people say that it's swallowing people. 569 00:41:27,435 --> 00:41:29,569 Freeman: The prison was meant to be a holding place 570 00:41:29,671 --> 00:41:32,539 for jewish and political prisoners, 571 00:41:32,641 --> 00:41:37,177 but inmates were tortured, hanged, or shot. 572 00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:46,336 Tomas: And over there now, this is the tunnel of death, 573 00:41:47,072 --> 00:41:51,608 and nobody who was behind it would come out alive. 574 00:42:07,475 --> 00:42:12,545 This is the jewish cell here, which is for us a very important site, 575 00:42:12,847 --> 00:42:18,434 because it was used for jews from the ghetto as a punishment. 576 00:42:19,271 --> 00:42:22,839 And in the cell, which was built only for a dozen of people, 577 00:42:22,941 --> 00:42:26,376 at one time it had, like, 90 people. 578 00:42:26,678 --> 00:42:27,977 Rainer: And none of them survived? 579 00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:30,680 Tomas: None of them survived. 580 00:42:31,116 --> 00:42:32,582 Rainer: It's sad. 581 00:42:32,667 --> 00:42:34,534 It's a strange feeling to be here. 582 00:42:34,636 --> 00:42:38,137 Everything shows me exactly what I saw in auschwitz, 583 00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,007 what I saw in buchenwald, in majdanek, in treblinka, 584 00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:44,811 in all these different, disgusting camps. 585 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,114 My grandfather organized the genocide. 586 00:42:48,216 --> 00:42:50,700 He was a master in it. 587 00:42:53,371 --> 00:42:56,005 Freeman: Rainer's grandfather was rudolf hoess, 588 00:42:58,143 --> 00:43:01,811 the commandant of the auschwitz extermination camp, 589 00:43:01,913 --> 00:43:05,965 and one of the chief architects of hitler's final solution. 590 00:43:08,370 --> 00:43:14,307 At his trial, hoess admitted his role in the holocaust and was sentenced to death. 591 00:43:16,444 --> 00:43:20,480 Before his execution in 1947, hoess gave confession 592 00:43:20,582 --> 00:43:24,934 and was absolved by a catholic priest. 593 00:43:26,638 --> 00:43:30,306 But hoess's sins were not eradicated. 594 00:43:31,943 --> 00:43:37,347 They have scarred the lives of countless jewish families, generation upon generation. 595 00:43:38,850 --> 00:43:42,468 They've also left their mark on rainer hoess. 596 00:43:43,672 --> 00:43:45,605 Tomas: What is your feeling? 597 00:43:45,707 --> 00:43:48,975 Do you feel any responsibility? 598 00:43:49,511 --> 00:43:53,112 Rainer: Well I'm not guilty, I wasn't even born when things like that happened. 599 00:43:54,516 --> 00:43:57,400 But responsibility, of course. 600 00:43:57,669 --> 00:44:00,303 My family is not dealing with it. 601 00:44:00,472 --> 00:44:03,973 So they're big deniers, they glorify more my grandfather. 602 00:44:04,059 --> 00:44:06,643 It never happens. 603 00:44:06,745 --> 00:44:08,845 I'm the black sheep in my family. 604 00:44:08,947 --> 00:44:11,381 But I'm proud to be the black sheep. 605 00:44:11,483 --> 00:44:14,934 I'm wearing a cruelty name. 606 00:44:15,770 --> 00:44:20,440 I think it's important to use the name to change things in life. 607 00:44:21,643 --> 00:44:23,409 Tomas: So this is our joint mission; 608 00:44:23,511 --> 00:44:25,478 because I feel also my responsibility. 609 00:44:25,580 --> 00:44:29,732 I have to give the witness of my parents to further generations. 610 00:44:30,168 --> 00:44:32,468 Your grandfather was the one in auschwitz... 611 00:44:32,570 --> 00:44:34,270 Rainer: The master of hell. 612 00:44:34,372 --> 00:44:37,774 Tomas: And my father was the prisoner there. 613 00:44:38,543 --> 00:44:42,412 So it's very important that we not only are admitting, it's very important that 614 00:44:42,514 --> 00:44:45,982 we are sending out the message to the world. 615 00:44:46,835 --> 00:44:51,804 My father, and my mother, by miracle, they survived and they came back from the camps. 616 00:44:52,307 --> 00:44:56,209 Their main slogan was, "never again. Never again." 617 00:44:56,311 --> 00:44:57,777 it was a mantra for them. 618 00:44:57,879 --> 00:44:59,579 Never again. 619 00:44:59,681 --> 00:45:03,266 It's on us, the second, third generations continue to take the torch. 620 00:45:06,971 --> 00:45:09,505 It's interesting, your pin, zachor. 621 00:45:09,591 --> 00:45:10,940 Rainer: Remember. 622 00:45:11,042 --> 00:45:12,241 Tomas: Why you have it? 623 00:45:12,343 --> 00:45:14,377 Rainer: It is together with the survivors. 624 00:45:14,479 --> 00:45:18,815 We deliver it to pupils and people in the world, 1.6 million times. 625 00:45:19,567 --> 00:45:23,336 And, our idea was that, if you use that pin, 626 00:45:23,438 --> 00:45:26,706 maybe in the jewelry box at home, sometimes 627 00:45:26,808 --> 00:45:30,410 one of the grandkids or kids ask about it. 628 00:45:30,512 --> 00:45:34,614 So it gets delivered over centuries, over generations. 629 00:45:35,316 --> 00:45:38,801 Tomas: It's a wonderful idea, because this is how you fight. 630 00:45:42,207 --> 00:45:44,907 Rainer: If we do nothing, we learned nothing. 631 00:45:45,009 --> 00:45:46,142 Tomas: Exactly. 632 00:45:46,244 --> 00:45:48,911 Rainer: I think that's the message I deliver. 633 00:45:49,013 --> 00:45:53,966 Tomas: And we have to raise our warning finger, because it's a never ending story. 634 00:45:57,839 --> 00:45:59,939 Freeman: The teachings of christianity ask us to hold 635 00:46:00,108 --> 00:46:04,143 two seemingly contradictory ideas at the same time: 636 00:46:05,046 --> 00:46:10,099 That sin must be forgiven, but that we inherit original sin. 637 00:46:11,903 --> 00:46:16,205 Well it may not be so contradictory, 'cause it points to a subtle truth, 638 00:46:17,308 --> 00:46:22,111 that all sin can ultimately be forgiven, but it takes honesty, 639 00:46:22,213 --> 00:46:26,799 courage, and sometimes many lifetimes of work. 640 00:46:36,711 --> 00:46:39,946 Religions differ in how they define sin, 641 00:46:40,381 --> 00:46:44,066 but all faiths strive to steer us away 642 00:46:44,169 --> 00:46:47,737 from our base of instincts, our selfishness. 643 00:46:51,176 --> 00:46:53,810 They make us wrestle with right and wrong. 644 00:46:54,946 --> 00:46:59,282 They keep us honest about our own failings, and help us to 645 00:46:59,384 --> 00:47:03,836 ask for, and offer, forgiveness. 646 00:47:04,105 --> 00:47:06,172 A poet once wrote, 647 00:47:06,274 --> 00:47:11,010 "to err is human, to forgive, divine." 648 00:47:13,848 --> 00:47:18,134 forgiveness, I think this may be the best of human qualities. 649 00:47:18,236 --> 00:47:19,435 Captioned by cotter captioning services.