1 00:00:13,667 --> 00:00:16,166 JOY: I knew both sides of my mom. 2 00:00:16,233 --> 00:00:19,767 I knew this wonderful, beautiful person, wanted to 3 00:00:19,767 --> 00:00:23,266 help people, love people, showed affection to me, 4 00:00:23,333 --> 00:00:28,066 my children, would cry when I cried, be there for me. 5 00:00:28,133 --> 00:00:31,767 But I also knew this woman who had a violent temper, 6 00:00:31,834 --> 00:00:37,066 who killed children, who abused people, who was 7 00:00:37,133 --> 00:00:39,066 controlling, manipulative, 8 00:00:39,066 --> 00:00:42,367 self-righteous, and very prideful. 9 00:00:42,433 --> 00:00:46,066 It's definitely hard to accept that a person that loved me, 10 00:00:46,133 --> 00:00:50,000 that I love, was capable of committing such atrocities 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,166 and hurting so many people. 12 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:04,467 It feels horrible to think of my mother as a serial killer. 13 00:01:04,533 --> 00:01:09,667 It's very difficult to even say that my mom 14 00:01:09,667 --> 00:01:12,867 killed three children, 15 00:01:12,934 --> 00:01:14,133 possibly four. 16 00:01:15,567 --> 00:01:19,467 Last time I seen Moses, he looked like he was dying. 17 00:01:19,467 --> 00:01:21,767 He looked so sick, 18 00:01:21,767 --> 00:01:26,367 and his lips were crusted over from dry skin. 19 00:01:26,433 --> 00:01:29,767 I just started having visions of Moses everywhere I went. 20 00:01:29,767 --> 00:01:34,266 I started seeing Moses in the curtains, like it was him. 21 00:01:34,266 --> 00:01:36,367 I started hearing his voice. 22 00:01:36,367 --> 00:01:38,967 I just kept rubbing his lips. 23 00:01:39,033 --> 00:01:41,567 I said, I just need to... 24 00:01:41,634 --> 00:01:43,233 I just, I feel... 25 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:48,367 I feel Moses' skin on my fingertips. 26 00:01:48,367 --> 00:01:50,166 I gotta get it off. 27 00:01:50,166 --> 00:01:53,667 [exhales heavily] Sorry. 28 00:01:53,667 --> 00:01:56,066 I'm having a panic attack. 29 00:01:56,066 --> 00:01:57,867 I'm sorry. 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,967 [breathing heavily] 31 00:02:04,967 --> 00:02:06,834 Wait a minute. I need to go. 32 00:02:08,667 --> 00:02:10,000 I just get -- I just feel it. 33 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,867 I just -- I just -- it'll go away. 34 00:02:11,934 --> 00:02:13,133 I just feel it. 35 00:02:14,867 --> 00:02:18,367 I just gotta get this finger, I gotta get just the feeling of 36 00:02:18,367 --> 00:02:20,066 his lips off my fingers. 37 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,100 [The Paper Chase's "What's So Amazing About Grace?" plays] 38 00:02:27,100 --> 00:02:29,100 [strings continue playing sinister tune] 39 00:02:29,100 --> 00:02:31,066 [static crackling] 40 00:02:33,567 --> 00:02:36,166 -[knock at door] -[creaking] 41 00:02:36,233 --> 00:02:46,567 -[banging on door] -[creaking] 42 00:02:46,634 --> 00:02:49,166 [water dripping] 43 00:02:49,166 --> 00:02:51,467 -[banging on door] -[creaking] 44 00:02:51,467 --> 00:02:53,567 [sinister chord strikes] 45 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:06,266 This is a picture of me, my mom, my dad. 46 00:03:06,333 --> 00:03:07,867 I don't know how old I was here. 47 00:03:07,934 --> 00:03:09,467 I'm thinking... 48 00:03:09,467 --> 00:03:11,667 maybe six, seven. 49 00:03:11,734 --> 00:03:15,567 I was very happy that day with my parents. 50 00:03:15,567 --> 00:03:18,667 My mom is Anna Elizabeth Young. 51 00:03:18,734 --> 00:03:21,166 She was my idol. I loved my mother. 52 00:03:21,166 --> 00:03:24,667 When I was young, I had no idea of her past. 53 00:03:24,734 --> 00:03:28,166 I seen pictures of her before she was religious. 54 00:03:28,233 --> 00:03:30,767 You know, very disco, '70s style, 55 00:03:30,767 --> 00:03:32,867 you know, a lot of makeup. 56 00:03:32,867 --> 00:03:35,467 By the time I was born, she'd already, you know, 57 00:03:35,467 --> 00:03:36,867 became religious. 58 00:03:36,934 --> 00:03:38,567 She never told me the reason why she 59 00:03:38,567 --> 00:03:40,567 finally found Christianity, 60 00:03:40,567 --> 00:03:45,767 she changed her life around, but I never asked. 61 00:03:45,834 --> 00:03:49,066 We covered up ourselves in more modest attire to dress like 62 00:03:49,066 --> 00:03:50,367 people of the Bible. 63 00:03:50,367 --> 00:03:53,767 I thought we were living the right way. 64 00:03:53,834 --> 00:03:55,467 I had no idea the tragedies to come 65 00:03:55,533 --> 00:03:57,467 and the tragedies that already did happen. 66 00:03:57,533 --> 00:04:00,767 I didn't realize the impacts they could make down the road. 67 00:04:00,767 --> 00:04:02,734 I just -- it was just part of life. 68 00:04:21,300 --> 00:04:23,467 The House of Prayer was like our little kingdom. 69 00:04:24,567 --> 00:04:26,367 It was an old farm. 70 00:04:26,367 --> 00:04:29,266 So everything, you know, it was more natural, trying to stick to 71 00:04:29,266 --> 00:04:30,667 more of the natural way. 72 00:04:30,667 --> 00:04:33,667 We had prayer in the morning at 5 a.m. 73 00:04:33,734 --> 00:04:36,867 We had prayer in the afternoon at 3 p.m. 74 00:04:36,867 --> 00:04:39,166 And then we had prayer at 9 o'clock in the evening. 75 00:04:39,166 --> 00:04:41,533 And those prayers could last for hours. 76 00:04:47,467 --> 00:04:50,066 I'm a cold case homicide detective for 77 00:04:50,133 --> 00:04:51,567 the Alachua County Sheriff's Office. 78 00:04:51,634 --> 00:04:55,066 Today is Saturday, January the 28th, 2017. 79 00:04:55,066 --> 00:04:58,166 This is Joy Fluker, and we've asked her to walk us through 80 00:04:58,166 --> 00:05:01,767 the interior of the residence and the outside properties to 81 00:05:01,767 --> 00:05:04,567 get a rough idea of how things worked here back in the late 82 00:05:04,567 --> 00:05:05,934 '80s and early '90s. 83 00:05:53,767 --> 00:05:55,166 JOY: My mom was the leader. 84 00:05:56,367 --> 00:05:59,000 She wasn't even called, you know, Mother Anna 85 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,166 from the members there. 86 00:06:00,166 --> 00:06:01,166 She was called Mother. 87 00:06:01,233 --> 00:06:04,166 She was basically the mother. 88 00:06:04,166 --> 00:06:07,467 She, you know, everything she said, we basically followed. 89 00:06:07,467 --> 00:06:08,934 Everyone followed. 90 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,367 We all believed that Mom was the mouthpiece for God. 91 00:06:21,467 --> 00:06:24,967 One time, my mother told the congregation that 92 00:06:25,033 --> 00:06:28,467 the spirit of lust was there. 93 00:06:28,467 --> 00:06:32,667 Who among you have betrayed the will of God? 94 00:06:34,066 --> 00:06:35,867 Is it you? 95 00:06:35,867 --> 00:06:37,266 JOY: And people would feel guilty, 96 00:06:37,266 --> 00:06:38,967 and sometimes they would go ahead and confess 97 00:06:39,033 --> 00:06:41,567 about what they did or what they were 98 00:06:41,567 --> 00:06:43,033 thinking about doing. 99 00:06:45,166 --> 00:06:47,667 Anything that was considered a sin, you know, for the most 100 00:06:47,667 --> 00:06:50,567 part, you would get spanked or, you know, whipped for it. 101 00:06:50,634 --> 00:06:52,467 Kneel. 102 00:06:54,867 --> 00:06:57,567 JOY: She took scriptures literally. 103 00:06:57,634 --> 00:07:00,100 Like the Bible says, spare the rod, spoil the child. 104 00:07:01,367 --> 00:07:04,100 Everyone in the congregation agreed to this form of 105 00:07:04,100 --> 00:07:07,467 discipline, and that's kind of how a lot of cults 106 00:07:07,467 --> 00:07:10,834 even get started -- it was like we were programmed. 107 00:07:22,467 --> 00:07:25,467 Any given time, there were between five to seven kids at 108 00:07:25,533 --> 00:07:28,867 the House of Prayer growing up, but for the most time there, 109 00:07:28,934 --> 00:07:32,066 it was really just me and John. 110 00:07:34,266 --> 00:07:38,066 He came there early on, and we were close in age. 111 00:07:38,066 --> 00:07:41,266 I had to be six, seven, something like that. 112 00:07:41,266 --> 00:07:43,467 So one time we were playing house, 113 00:07:44,567 --> 00:07:49,166 and John told me that he had saw his parents when they 114 00:07:49,166 --> 00:07:54,000 played, you know, that they would rub against each other. 115 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:55,667 And I'm like, what is that? 116 00:07:55,667 --> 00:07:57,867 He said, "That's what adults do when they're married," 117 00:07:57,867 --> 00:07:59,367 because we would play like we're married. 118 00:08:00,100 --> 00:08:03,734 So we start doing that, like rubbing against each other. 119 00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:07,433 Some kind of way, my mom found out about it. 120 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,667 John was honest and told everything. 121 00:08:14,667 --> 00:08:18,166 There was a point where she told me I could leave the room, 122 00:08:18,233 --> 00:08:22,066 and I remember him looking at me, and I felt guilty then. 123 00:08:22,133 --> 00:08:25,734 I left the room. John was still in there. 124 00:08:30,867 --> 00:08:33,033 And then soon after, I heard the screaming. 125 00:08:34,300 --> 00:08:35,967 [as John screaming] 126 00:08:36,033 --> 00:08:39,767 JOY: He was screaming, screaming and crying. 127 00:08:39,767 --> 00:08:43,567 I felt guilty about it, very guilty about it. 128 00:08:43,567 --> 00:08:45,834 I remember looking and feeling like, this is because of me. 129 00:08:48,066 --> 00:08:50,867 He still has wounds on his body from the beatings 130 00:08:50,867 --> 00:08:52,233 he endured down there. 131 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,367 I need to take a break. 132 00:08:57,266 --> 00:08:58,967 I'm sorry. 133 00:08:59,033 --> 00:09:02,066 I'm gonna get myself together a little bit. 134 00:09:02,133 --> 00:09:04,767 I just feel weird talking about this. 135 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:10,667 [sighs heavily] 136 00:09:20,166 --> 00:09:22,667 I had a crush on another boy that we had 137 00:09:22,667 --> 00:09:24,000 visited at a church. 138 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,667 You know, I was 10, and we exchanged phone numbers. 139 00:09:27,734 --> 00:09:30,767 Mom went off on me about calling. 140 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,066 She was like, "You don't need to call no more." 141 00:09:35,066 --> 00:09:38,467 And I did it anyway. 142 00:09:39,567 --> 00:09:42,233 And then my mom found out about it. 143 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,166 My heart dropped to my stomach, and I knew I was gonna be 144 00:09:48,233 --> 00:09:49,533 in serious trouble. 145 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,367 I was terrified when she looked at me, because I knew I was 146 00:09:54,367 --> 00:09:56,433 gonna get beat down. 147 00:09:57,867 --> 00:10:00,166 My mom whipped me on my backside, 148 00:10:00,166 --> 00:10:02,266 my feet, and my hands. 149 00:10:02,266 --> 00:10:05,066 But after the beating, my punishment still wasn't over. 150 00:10:05,133 --> 00:10:07,333 There was a crawl space in her attic, 151 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:12,467 and that's where she sent me. 152 00:10:12,467 --> 00:10:15,166 All she gave me was a bag to go to the bathroom in, 153 00:10:15,166 --> 00:10:17,166 and no food and no water. 154 00:10:19,767 --> 00:10:22,266 While I was up there, I prayed. 155 00:10:22,266 --> 00:10:25,133 I tried not to have to go to the bathroom. 156 00:10:26,367 --> 00:10:28,867 I tried to sleep as much as possible. 157 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,467 It was torturous having to do this as part of a punishment. 158 00:10:34,533 --> 00:10:36,967 I wanted food. I wanted to get down. 159 00:10:36,967 --> 00:10:38,467 Like, I don't know what's gonna happen to me. 160 00:10:38,533 --> 00:10:41,233 Like, I'm scared. I was terrified. 161 00:10:49,867 --> 00:10:52,467 JOY: I was up there for at least two days. 162 00:10:52,467 --> 00:10:53,967 It was hot. 163 00:10:53,967 --> 00:10:55,867 I was scared. 164 00:10:55,867 --> 00:10:58,166 I was just praying she'd let me out of there. 165 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,567 I knew that if I showed that I had repented, 166 00:11:03,634 --> 00:11:05,333 that I would get released. 167 00:11:07,367 --> 00:11:10,767 It just clicked, that to get down, I need to pretend like 168 00:11:10,767 --> 00:11:12,567 I was speaking in tongues and repented. 169 00:11:12,634 --> 00:11:15,667 She believed that when people started speaking in tongues 170 00:11:15,667 --> 00:11:17,634 or whatever, it was really God. 171 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,767 So I decided to start speaking in tongues, 172 00:11:22,767 --> 00:11:26,066 and I faked it purely to get out of there. 173 00:11:26,133 --> 00:11:30,166 And the rest is my salvation. I repent, and I... 174 00:11:30,166 --> 00:11:32,100 JOY: Basically, you just say a word fast. 175 00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:35,000 -I repent and I rest. I repent. -JOY: And you just let it flow. 176 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,567 It's like feeling a high of the spirit kind of thing. 177 00:11:37,567 --> 00:11:39,567 [As Joy, whispering] I rest, I repent, and I rest, I repent. 178 00:11:39,567 --> 00:11:42,567 I rest, I repent, and I rest, I repent, and I rest, I repent. 179 00:11:42,634 --> 00:11:45,467 JOY: Just opens the gate -- I just keep speaking in tongues. 180 00:11:45,467 --> 00:11:46,867 I keep speaking in tongues. 181 00:11:48,967 --> 00:11:53,667 I tell her I'm sorry, and I repent, and everything, and... 182 00:11:53,667 --> 00:11:56,867 I'm relieved to be out. 183 00:11:56,934 --> 00:11:58,867 I know I'm free at that point. 184 00:11:58,867 --> 00:12:00,767 I was just glad to be out. 185 00:12:00,834 --> 00:12:04,834 Go to the bathroom, and life is back to normal. 186 00:12:06,667 --> 00:12:09,266 I did feel a little guilty faking speaking in tongues, 187 00:12:09,333 --> 00:12:12,767 because I do have a fear of God, and I love God. 188 00:12:12,767 --> 00:12:16,467 And I did feel guilty, but I was in survival mode, 189 00:12:16,467 --> 00:12:17,967 like whatever it takes. 190 00:12:30,266 --> 00:12:33,667 Elder Adam, he was one of our first members. 191 00:12:33,734 --> 00:12:36,767 My mother told Elder Adam that he had to be 192 00:12:36,767 --> 00:12:38,667 separated from his wife, 193 00:12:38,734 --> 00:12:40,767 but then he confessed that he slept with her 194 00:12:40,834 --> 00:12:42,233 after he was told not to. 195 00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:45,667 My mother was very angry. 196 00:12:45,667 --> 00:12:49,367 There's something in the Bible about if your limb offends you. 197 00:12:49,367 --> 00:12:50,567 I think that's what she used. 198 00:12:50,634 --> 00:12:52,867 If the limb offends you, cut it off. 199 00:12:52,867 --> 00:12:54,667 She took it literally. 200 00:12:54,734 --> 00:12:57,467 You have this lust demon, and if you did not have 201 00:12:57,467 --> 00:13:01,767 you know, a penis, then you wouldn't be 202 00:13:01,767 --> 00:13:04,567 sinning against God anymore with it. 203 00:13:09,467 --> 00:13:11,066 He agreed to do it. 204 00:13:11,133 --> 00:13:13,967 He agreed to cut off his penis, 205 00:13:13,967 --> 00:13:17,266 because that limb of his body 206 00:13:17,266 --> 00:13:20,100 offended him, because it was causing him 207 00:13:20,100 --> 00:13:22,433 to sin against God. 208 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:29,667 The act of him agreeing to do that definitely shows how much 209 00:13:29,734 --> 00:13:33,033 power she had over the people there, including him. 210 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,100 Everyone was praising God and thinking he was making this 211 00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:40,667 ultimate sacrifice for God. 212 00:13:40,667 --> 00:13:45,433 He went to the barn with one of the sisters, who was a nurse, 213 00:13:48,166 --> 00:13:51,233 and they commenced in doing the surgery. 214 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:00,967 My mother never showed any regret for it, 215 00:14:00,967 --> 00:14:02,834 because she felt it was an act of God. 216 00:14:04,867 --> 00:14:07,166 It was such a different world back then. 217 00:14:07,233 --> 00:14:09,767 I don't -- I mean, I know it was crazy for him to do, 218 00:14:09,767 --> 00:14:13,166 and I think it was wrong of her to even ask him to do it. 219 00:14:13,166 --> 00:14:16,100 I think it was crazier for him to actually do it. 220 00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:19,266 The fact that she was able to convince a man to do that lets 221 00:14:19,333 --> 00:14:23,066 me know that the control was just really deep-rooted. 222 00:14:23,133 --> 00:14:26,767 She really had them hook, line, and sinker believing that she 223 00:14:26,834 --> 00:14:30,266 was the way, truth, and the light to God. 224 00:14:30,333 --> 00:14:35,266 So it is very powerful that she was able to convince him 225 00:14:35,333 --> 00:14:36,834 to do that. 226 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,567 Yeah, this is a picture of Brother Moses when he was still 227 00:14:54,634 --> 00:14:56,166 being called Emon. 228 00:14:56,166 --> 00:15:00,467 My dad always wanted a son, and one of the sisters at 229 00:15:00,467 --> 00:15:03,266 the church had advised about a young woman who had a little 230 00:15:03,266 --> 00:15:06,066 baby that she couldn't care for, and he, you know, 231 00:15:06,133 --> 00:15:08,867 basically was supposed to be my adopted baby brother. 232 00:15:08,867 --> 00:15:11,266 He looks like a normal little baby. 233 00:15:11,266 --> 00:15:12,967 He doesn't look like he had been abused. 234 00:15:13,033 --> 00:15:16,266 I wish this was the last memory I had of him. 235 00:15:16,333 --> 00:15:18,166 I wish this is the way I remember him looking, 236 00:15:18,166 --> 00:15:21,066 but this is not the way I last remember seeing him. 237 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,767 I don't want to talk about it right now. 238 00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:30,266 Because I think I'll have a panic attack, 239 00:15:30,333 --> 00:15:31,667 another panic attack. 240 00:15:31,734 --> 00:15:34,767 I don't want to talk about 241 00:15:34,767 --> 00:15:37,867 what I last -- how I last seen him look. 242 00:15:37,867 --> 00:15:40,000 I don't want to have to run out the room, 243 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,467 thinking about it too hard. 244 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,166 I don't remember why, but at some point, 245 00:15:55,233 --> 00:15:58,367 my mother locked Moses in the closet. 246 00:15:58,367 --> 00:15:59,867 He didn't have any food or drink 247 00:15:59,867 --> 00:16:01,233 when he was in the closet. 248 00:16:02,467 --> 00:16:06,333 One time, she had me go give him something, and... 249 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:10,567 he looked like he was dying. 250 00:16:10,567 --> 00:16:15,266 He looked so sick, and his lips were crusted over 251 00:16:15,266 --> 00:16:16,967 from dry skin. 252 00:16:16,967 --> 00:16:21,000 His eyes were just, like, glazing and big. 253 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,767 He was small, and he was weak. 254 00:16:24,767 --> 00:16:26,166 He was in there for days. 255 00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:36,367 So one night, I was in bed with her, 256 00:16:36,367 --> 00:16:41,166 and I hadn't seen him. 257 00:16:41,166 --> 00:16:44,967 She snuck out of bed and went out on the porch, 258 00:16:45,033 --> 00:16:48,367 and she was talking to Elder Adam and Brother Thomas. 259 00:16:48,367 --> 00:16:50,266 MAN: It's about Brother Moses. 260 00:16:50,266 --> 00:16:55,266 And she asked, was he dead? Was he gone? 261 00:16:55,266 --> 00:16:57,266 Something to that effect. 262 00:16:57,266 --> 00:17:00,066 And Brother Thomas responded, yes. 263 00:17:00,066 --> 00:17:01,433 AS BROTHER THOMAS: He didn't survive. 264 00:17:05,767 --> 00:17:07,033 Let me take a break. 265 00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:13,233 Sorry. This is a tough subject. 266 00:17:18,867 --> 00:17:20,734 [quietly] Oh, God. 267 00:17:22,266 --> 00:17:27,166 Last time I seen Moses, he was basically dying, in my opinion. 268 00:17:29,066 --> 00:17:31,667 I do know that, after he disappeared, 269 00:17:31,667 --> 00:17:34,000 she said that she took Moses 270 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,967 to live with the monks, to be raised like, 271 00:17:35,967 --> 00:17:38,033 you know, like Elijah in the Bible. 272 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,767 She told me that he was sent to be with the monks 273 00:17:41,834 --> 00:17:43,667 because he kept getting in trouble. 274 00:17:43,667 --> 00:17:46,000 I knew she was lying in my heart. 275 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,467 I knew it. 276 00:17:47,533 --> 00:17:50,467 I couldn't bring myself to talk to my mom about it, 277 00:17:50,467 --> 00:17:53,367 because I knew that I would have crossed the line. 278 00:17:53,367 --> 00:17:56,166 I would have taken part of that, 279 00:17:56,233 --> 00:17:57,667 you know, forbidden topic. 280 00:17:57,667 --> 00:18:01,834 And it was like this dark cloud now over our relationship. 281 00:18:12,367 --> 00:18:14,333 What's that? 282 00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:18,467 I don't know. I think it is. 283 00:18:18,533 --> 00:18:19,634 I can't. 284 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,367 I can't. Just in case, I can't. 285 00:18:26,367 --> 00:18:27,634 I just can't. 286 00:18:28,967 --> 00:18:32,934 I can't look at the closet that I last saw Moses in. 287 00:18:37,700 --> 00:18:39,433 No. 288 00:19:10,367 --> 00:19:13,333 [Joy sobbing] 289 00:19:28,867 --> 00:19:31,433 He was in there. 290 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:06,767 This is Katonya. 291 00:20:06,767 --> 00:20:10,166 Um, here, she looks like a cute little sweet girl. 292 00:20:10,166 --> 00:20:12,000 Looks happy, happy little baby. 293 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,567 Katonya was really, really young at the time still when 294 00:20:14,567 --> 00:20:16,667 she was getting disciplined. 295 00:20:16,734 --> 00:20:18,767 I think she was, I don't know, 296 00:20:18,767 --> 00:20:20,767 two or three or something like that. 297 00:20:20,767 --> 00:20:25,000 I don't hear her voice when I hear her crying. 298 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,867 I just hear crying in my head. 299 00:20:26,867 --> 00:20:28,367 I just know I heard her crying. 300 00:20:30,767 --> 00:20:34,166 My mother accepted families with children born 301 00:20:34,233 --> 00:20:35,967 out of wedlock. 302 00:20:36,033 --> 00:20:39,867 You know, they were single moms, so they needed more help 303 00:20:39,867 --> 00:20:43,000 than a person that's married and has a family. 304 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,867 From what I understand, Katonya was born out of wedlock. 305 00:20:48,367 --> 00:20:51,266 She felt like these children had demons in them. 306 00:20:51,333 --> 00:20:52,967 They were devil possessed. 307 00:20:53,033 --> 00:20:56,667 And then Katonya started having seizures, and my mom felt like 308 00:20:56,734 --> 00:21:00,567 the seizures were part of a proof of the devil possession. 309 00:21:00,567 --> 00:21:03,567 She was the first person that I remember seeing my mom 310 00:21:03,567 --> 00:21:05,867 accuse of devil possession. 311 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,066 One day, I heard Katonya getting a whipping in the next room. 312 00:21:13,266 --> 00:21:15,533 They were trying to get the devil out of her. 313 00:21:16,567 --> 00:21:20,467 Eventually the crying stopped, and then some of the adults 314 00:21:20,467 --> 00:21:22,266 started running to the next room, 315 00:21:22,333 --> 00:21:24,233 where she was being whipped. 316 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,567 Next thing I know, they're carrying her out. 317 00:21:27,567 --> 00:21:31,367 The adults were all scared, terrified, and worried. 318 00:21:31,433 --> 00:21:34,667 And I was scared too. 319 00:21:34,667 --> 00:21:38,166 And she wasn't responsive. 320 00:21:38,233 --> 00:21:41,467 So, you know, they took her to the hospital. 321 00:21:46,667 --> 00:21:50,567 They said she had a grand mal seizure, and she was in a coma. 322 00:21:50,567 --> 00:21:52,734 And she died from the seizure. 323 00:21:54,100 --> 00:21:56,367 I was told that the seizure started, though, because of all 324 00:21:56,367 --> 00:21:59,166 the discipline that my mom inflicted upon her. 325 00:21:59,233 --> 00:22:00,634 All the beatings. 326 00:22:01,567 --> 00:22:05,834 My mom's beatings caused the seizure that killed her. 327 00:22:07,767 --> 00:22:11,667 And I remember thinking about her mother. 328 00:22:11,667 --> 00:22:13,667 Her mother was at work or somewhere. 329 00:22:13,667 --> 00:22:14,934 She wasn't there. 330 00:22:16,166 --> 00:22:18,567 I remember thinking, she's gonna be so mad when she 331 00:22:18,634 --> 00:22:20,667 comes back and learns her daughter died. 332 00:22:20,667 --> 00:22:23,967 It makes me angry, because I think that Katonya's life could 333 00:22:23,967 --> 00:22:25,166 have been spared if someone would have 334 00:22:25,233 --> 00:22:27,066 said something before. 335 00:22:27,133 --> 00:22:30,567 And I do question the mindset of some of the adults. 336 00:22:30,567 --> 00:22:32,567 They didn't know all the details, but they knew 337 00:22:32,567 --> 00:22:35,266 a child died in my mother's care. 338 00:22:35,333 --> 00:22:36,667 And they were full adults. 339 00:22:36,667 --> 00:22:38,967 And you didn't raise a flag right then and there. 340 00:22:38,967 --> 00:22:40,767 Like, Mom, 341 00:22:40,767 --> 00:22:43,100 I witnessed what you did. 342 00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:44,767 You can't do this again. 343 00:22:44,767 --> 00:22:45,867 It feels horrible. 344 00:22:45,867 --> 00:22:47,834 I mean, it feels awful. 345 00:22:58,667 --> 00:23:00,867 After my dad died, we became affiliated with 346 00:23:00,867 --> 00:23:03,266 a couple that lived in the Carolinas. 347 00:23:03,767 --> 00:23:06,667 And they had a daughter who they said, you know, was 348 00:23:06,667 --> 00:23:08,367 getting in trouble at school. 349 00:23:08,367 --> 00:23:10,567 And they admired the way Mom raised me. 350 00:23:10,567 --> 00:23:14,767 And they felt that Nikki could be helped 351 00:23:14,767 --> 00:23:17,266 by coming to stay with us. 352 00:23:17,266 --> 00:23:19,000 You're new here, right? 353 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,367 -I'm Joy. -I'm Nikki. 354 00:23:21,433 --> 00:23:24,000 I think Nikki Nickelson was about 12 when she came there. 355 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,467 We're the same age. 356 00:23:25,533 --> 00:23:29,166 -How are you settling in? -It's different. 357 00:23:29,233 --> 00:23:33,567 Nikki was a very sweet person, but she did, you know, 358 00:23:33,567 --> 00:23:35,467 have some issues. 359 00:23:35,533 --> 00:23:37,367 She did not, you know, bathe herself. 360 00:23:37,367 --> 00:23:39,667 I know she suffered from really bad eczema. 361 00:23:39,667 --> 00:23:44,100 No one ever considered the fact of her eczema as being a reason 362 00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:46,166 for her maybe not wanting to take a bath. 363 00:23:46,166 --> 00:23:49,467 My mom just thought Nikki was unclean and nasty. 364 00:23:49,467 --> 00:23:52,967 Eventually, my mom just, 365 00:23:53,033 --> 00:23:55,467 I guess, in her mind, had enough. 366 00:24:00,367 --> 00:24:04,767 And she came up with this idea 367 00:24:04,767 --> 00:24:08,767 of giving Nikki a punishment bath, 368 00:24:08,834 --> 00:24:14,667 making it so harsh and so painful that she would, 369 00:24:14,667 --> 00:24:17,467 in turn, bathe herself, 370 00:24:17,467 --> 00:24:20,433 because she would not want my mother to bathe her again. 371 00:24:22,266 --> 00:24:26,100 A group of people grabbed Nikki and forced her into 372 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:27,767 the bathroom and into the tub. 373 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,100 [as Nikki sobbing] 374 00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:37,266 JOY: She's 13 years old at this point. 375 00:24:37,266 --> 00:24:39,967 You know, she doesn't want them to give her a bath. 376 00:24:40,033 --> 00:24:43,667 One of the sisters would continuously heat up 377 00:24:43,667 --> 00:24:45,867 scalding water and pour it into the tub. 378 00:24:45,867 --> 00:24:49,567 It would still be torturous for anyone to take a bath with that 379 00:24:49,567 --> 00:24:52,166 level of heat in the water. 380 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:55,767 As the water was being poured into the tub, 381 00:24:55,767 --> 00:24:57,667 my mom was scrubbing her. 382 00:24:57,734 --> 00:24:59,867 Nikki was fighting, trying to get out. 383 00:24:59,867 --> 00:25:03,266 She did put bleach and detergent in the tub with her, 384 00:25:03,266 --> 00:25:07,967 but the punishment aspect of it was my mom scrubbing her 385 00:25:08,033 --> 00:25:10,567 hard in this scalding water 386 00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:13,467 and the sisters holding her down in the water. 387 00:25:13,467 --> 00:25:16,166 [as Nikki crying] 388 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,367 A couple of days later, we saw the oozing from the burns that 389 00:25:22,367 --> 00:25:25,166 she acquired because of the bath. 390 00:25:25,166 --> 00:25:28,166 It was horrifying to see. 391 00:25:28,166 --> 00:25:32,166 I mean, her legs were just -- really just, it was bad. 392 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,066 My mom told Nikki's parents what happened, 393 00:25:38,066 --> 00:25:40,467 but I don't know if she told them about her heating 394 00:25:40,467 --> 00:25:42,166 up the water or not. 395 00:25:42,166 --> 00:25:44,767 I know the narrative that I remember is more so 396 00:25:44,834 --> 00:25:48,667 about the detergent causing a chemical reaction 397 00:25:48,734 --> 00:25:50,867 to her because she had eczema. 398 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,767 From what I was told, it was their lawsuit 399 00:25:55,767 --> 00:25:57,467 that raised the flag 400 00:25:57,533 --> 00:26:01,066 about a child being hurt on the property 401 00:26:01,133 --> 00:26:04,100 that made the DA take on the case. 402 00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:07,567 That's when they started investigating it, and that's 403 00:26:07,634 --> 00:26:10,166 when I started hearing Mom talking about going on the run. 404 00:26:18,667 --> 00:26:21,867 I went on the run with my mom when I was 13. 405 00:26:21,934 --> 00:26:24,333 A warrant had in fact been issued for her arrest. 406 00:26:24,767 --> 00:26:26,667 She had left the church. 407 00:26:26,734 --> 00:26:29,166 We all got new IDs with fake names. 408 00:26:29,233 --> 00:26:31,767 We were going place to place. 409 00:26:31,834 --> 00:26:33,867 I'm tired of this. 410 00:26:33,867 --> 00:26:36,000 I mentioned, you know, like, why can't we just go 411 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,667 where Moses is? 412 00:26:37,667 --> 00:26:38,967 I thought he was with the monks. 413 00:26:39,033 --> 00:26:40,166 Brother Moses? 414 00:26:40,233 --> 00:26:41,567 You can't stay with him. 415 00:26:41,567 --> 00:26:43,100 Why not? 416 00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:47,767 She said, "Oh Joy, I didn't tell you. 417 00:26:47,767 --> 00:26:49,767 Moses died." 418 00:26:49,767 --> 00:26:53,166 I'm like, what? 419 00:26:53,233 --> 00:26:57,000 Brother Moses died years ago. 420 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,667 JOY: I wasn't expecting that response. 421 00:26:59,667 --> 00:27:02,567 I'm expecting the same response she's given before. 422 00:27:02,567 --> 00:27:05,667 And I said, "How did he die?" 423 00:27:05,734 --> 00:27:08,767 She said, "I don't know. He died in his sleep." 424 00:27:08,834 --> 00:27:11,667 And she said he died with the monks. 425 00:27:11,734 --> 00:27:16,567 Shocked that she's admitting he's dead, 426 00:27:16,567 --> 00:27:19,066 and then doubting myself, 427 00:27:19,066 --> 00:27:22,567 and wondering, was I wrong? 428 00:27:22,634 --> 00:27:25,533 Did he really die with the monks? 429 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,100 I was very confused by what she said, 430 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:34,367 because it made me question my own sanity, 431 00:27:34,367 --> 00:27:36,867 my own memory, everything. 432 00:27:36,934 --> 00:27:39,567 I just -- I just couldn't believe 433 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:46,166 that she would just blatantly lie to me to that extreme. 434 00:27:46,233 --> 00:27:48,333 So I wanted to believe her. 435 00:28:02,266 --> 00:28:04,367 So I met my husband, 436 00:28:04,367 --> 00:28:07,867 and we weren't together that long before I got pregnant. 437 00:28:07,867 --> 00:28:10,567 So eventually I got my own place, 438 00:28:10,567 --> 00:28:12,166 and she was shocked that I was moving out, 439 00:28:12,166 --> 00:28:14,467 but she was happy for me, and she was telling me how 440 00:28:14,533 --> 00:28:16,934 smart I was to be able to figure all that stuff out. 441 00:28:18,367 --> 00:28:20,467 So one night, I'm at home. 442 00:28:20,533 --> 00:28:23,967 By this time, you know, I had a house, I'm in college, 443 00:28:23,967 --> 00:28:26,567 and I get a call from my uncle 444 00:28:26,634 --> 00:28:28,266 that my mother has been arrested. 445 00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:33,066 She was working in the nursing field, 446 00:28:33,066 --> 00:28:36,567 and there was an article ran in the National Enquirer 447 00:28:36,567 --> 00:28:38,767 and on America's Most Wanted, 448 00:28:38,767 --> 00:28:41,333 and the person saw it and turned her in. 449 00:28:50,567 --> 00:28:53,367 This picture of my mom, 450 00:28:53,433 --> 00:28:57,467 she was being arrested over Nikki's case. 451 00:28:57,467 --> 00:29:00,266 My mom was probably mid-50s here, 452 00:29:00,333 --> 00:29:05,367 but she doesn't look like the mom I knew to grow 453 00:29:05,367 --> 00:29:06,867 and love and everything. 454 00:29:06,867 --> 00:29:10,266 She looks hardened in this picture. 455 00:29:10,266 --> 00:29:14,834 She looked like a different person. 456 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,266 She was being accused of child abuse. 457 00:29:18,266 --> 00:29:19,667 So I thought she was gonna go to prison, 458 00:29:19,667 --> 00:29:21,867 and I was devastated over that. 459 00:29:21,867 --> 00:29:26,667 Sometimes it just seems strange from going from the church 460 00:29:26,667 --> 00:29:31,266 community and this life to knowing that that same person, 461 00:29:31,266 --> 00:29:35,166 you know, winded up, you know, going to prison and committed 462 00:29:35,166 --> 00:29:36,634 such atrocious crimes. 463 00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:50,367 After about 6 months or so, 464 00:29:50,367 --> 00:29:52,667 she was let go, and we were all praising God, 465 00:29:52,667 --> 00:29:54,767 like this is -- this is a miracle. 466 00:29:54,767 --> 00:29:56,066 This is God. 467 00:29:56,133 --> 00:29:58,066 I felt like everything could be normal. 468 00:29:58,133 --> 00:29:59,667 Now we can live a normal life. 469 00:29:59,667 --> 00:30:03,266 After awhile, me and my mom had 470 00:30:03,333 --> 00:30:04,867 had one of our many arguments. 471 00:30:04,934 --> 00:30:08,266 She was acting like Mother Anna again, 472 00:30:08,333 --> 00:30:10,100 and it was over my children. 473 00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:12,567 We had a lot of arguments over my children. 474 00:30:12,567 --> 00:30:14,133 And I felt like they were 475 00:30:15,667 --> 00:30:18,867 becoming sisters and brothers 476 00:30:18,867 --> 00:30:21,066 of the House of Prayer almost when it came to her. 477 00:30:22,667 --> 00:30:26,166 I was talking to my sister about it, and she was telling 478 00:30:26,166 --> 00:30:29,467 me, you know, how she never understood how I let Mom have 479 00:30:29,467 --> 00:30:30,967 so much authority over my children. 480 00:30:31,033 --> 00:30:33,367 She said, "I never let her discipline my kids, because I 481 00:30:33,367 --> 00:30:35,467 know what she's capable of." 482 00:30:35,467 --> 00:30:37,867 I think actually it might be the first time I realized this 483 00:30:37,934 --> 00:30:40,066 is not just normal behavior. 484 00:30:40,066 --> 00:30:42,166 It's something wrong with her. 485 00:30:42,166 --> 00:30:43,533 The things that she's done? 486 00:30:44,667 --> 00:30:46,867 JOY: So I thought about it, and I said, 487 00:30:46,867 --> 00:30:48,333 "I think she killed Brother Moses." 488 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,567 That was the first time I said out loud that I think she 489 00:30:53,634 --> 00:30:55,100 killed Brother Moses. 490 00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:57,000 And my sister said, "Why would you say something 491 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,367 horrible like that?" 492 00:30:58,367 --> 00:31:00,367 I said, "Because the last time I seen him, 493 00:31:00,367 --> 00:31:02,867 "he was like he was dying. 494 00:31:02,934 --> 00:31:04,667 He was in my closet." 495 00:31:04,734 --> 00:31:06,166 And I said, "Then all of a sudden, 496 00:31:06,233 --> 00:31:08,667 he wasn't around anymore." 497 00:31:08,734 --> 00:31:10,367 I said, "And she told me she gave him to the monks, 498 00:31:10,367 --> 00:31:12,000 but I know that's not true." 499 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,133 And my sister said, "Oh my God, not again." 500 00:31:15,567 --> 00:31:18,266 And I said, "What do you mean, not again?" 501 00:31:18,266 --> 00:31:20,767 She goes, "Well, you know that's how your sister died." 502 00:31:20,834 --> 00:31:23,767 I'm like, what? What sister? 503 00:31:23,834 --> 00:31:26,834 She goes, "Oh, I thought you knew." 504 00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:32,567 She said, "You had a sister, one of your dad's daughters, 505 00:31:32,634 --> 00:31:34,767 and she was in the closet." 506 00:31:34,834 --> 00:31:39,166 My mom put her in the closet, and she was screaming, 507 00:31:39,233 --> 00:31:42,367 and she stayed in there all night. 508 00:31:42,367 --> 00:31:44,567 "When I went to go let her out the next day, 509 00:31:44,567 --> 00:31:46,100 she was stiff." 510 00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:48,266 I said, stop, stop, stop, stop. I don't want to hear anymore. 511 00:31:48,333 --> 00:31:49,367 I can't. 512 00:31:49,367 --> 00:31:51,066 She said, "Well, it was an accident." 513 00:31:51,133 --> 00:31:53,767 I just stopped her. I just changed the subject. 514 00:31:53,834 --> 00:31:55,367 I couldn't take it, 515 00:31:55,433 --> 00:31:57,567 'cause I started feeling this anxiety. 516 00:31:57,567 --> 00:31:58,867 I felt like I was gonna have a -- 517 00:31:58,867 --> 00:32:00,066 I felt like I was suffocating. 518 00:32:00,066 --> 00:32:01,567 I didn't know I had a sister named Cathy 519 00:32:01,567 --> 00:32:03,567 until my sister told me. 520 00:32:03,567 --> 00:32:08,333 Cathy passed five years before I was born. 521 00:32:10,767 --> 00:32:13,166 Cathy was six years old. 522 00:32:13,166 --> 00:32:16,867 I later found out that 523 00:32:16,867 --> 00:32:19,967 her arms were tied behind her back, 524 00:32:20,033 --> 00:32:22,066 and her mouth was duct taped, 525 00:32:22,133 --> 00:32:24,467 and she suffocated and died. 526 00:32:24,533 --> 00:32:27,266 They put her in a suitcase, 527 00:32:27,266 --> 00:32:30,567 and they buried her somewhere. 528 00:32:30,567 --> 00:32:34,667 My head was just swirling with all these thoughts. 529 00:32:34,667 --> 00:32:37,266 I couldn't believe it. 530 00:32:37,333 --> 00:32:40,367 I realized that Moses was not the first child that had died 531 00:32:40,433 --> 00:32:41,634 at the hands of my mother. 532 00:32:53,467 --> 00:32:58,667 My son has mild Asperger's, and one night, she told him, 533 00:32:58,734 --> 00:33:00,066 "You don't have anything wrong with you. 534 00:33:00,066 --> 00:33:01,433 You're letting the devil use you." 535 00:33:02,467 --> 00:33:05,166 I was so upset, because he was on a path 536 00:33:05,166 --> 00:33:07,767 to trying to get counseling and try to better understand 537 00:33:07,834 --> 00:33:09,367 himself and try to do better. 538 00:33:09,367 --> 00:33:11,767 -What did you tell my son? -Calm down, Joy. 539 00:33:11,834 --> 00:33:13,467 Don't tell me to calm down. 540 00:33:13,467 --> 00:33:15,967 She convinced him the devil was using him, 541 00:33:15,967 --> 00:33:17,266 and that's how she really believed. 542 00:33:17,266 --> 00:33:19,066 Resist the devil and he will flee. 543 00:33:19,133 --> 00:33:20,100 -Now you know. -Stop. Just stop it! 544 00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:21,567 That is enough. 545 00:33:21,634 --> 00:33:23,767 JOY: It would just remind me of her being Mother Anna. 546 00:33:23,767 --> 00:33:26,100 I hated having flashbacks at the House of Prayer. 547 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:28,567 I was hurt -- I just wanted to get out of there. 548 00:33:28,634 --> 00:33:30,367 He is my son, not yours. 549 00:33:30,367 --> 00:33:32,367 JOY: I'm so upset. 550 00:33:32,367 --> 00:33:35,166 And before I know it, I slip, and I say, "How can you tell me 551 00:33:35,166 --> 00:33:37,333 how to raise my kids when you kill children?" 552 00:33:39,367 --> 00:33:43,000 And when I said it, I knew then I had crossed that forbidden 553 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,066 line that I had tried not to cross for so long. 554 00:33:46,066 --> 00:33:48,066 And I saw the look on her face. 555 00:33:48,066 --> 00:33:52,467 She looked at me like she saw a ghost. 556 00:33:52,467 --> 00:33:56,166 And I knew it was true. 557 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,367 I hated that it was confirmed that my mom 558 00:34:04,433 --> 00:34:07,033 killed three children. 559 00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:15,567 As long as I didn't confront her, there was that small 560 00:34:15,634 --> 00:34:17,734 percentage that I could say I wasn't sure. 561 00:34:21,166 --> 00:34:24,367 I started seeing Moses in the curtains 562 00:34:24,367 --> 00:34:26,166 like it was him. 563 00:34:26,233 --> 00:34:27,367 I started, like, you know, 564 00:34:27,367 --> 00:34:28,967 I already had nightmares about him before, 565 00:34:28,967 --> 00:34:30,767 but these were just worse. 566 00:34:30,767 --> 00:34:33,100 I start hearing his voice. 567 00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:37,100 I just start having visions of Moses everywhere I went. 568 00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:39,767 I started doubting my own sanity. 569 00:34:39,767 --> 00:34:42,634 I was trying to overcome it. 570 00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:48,567 I decide to reach out to one of the brothers in the church. 571 00:34:48,567 --> 00:34:51,000 I found his number, and I call him. 572 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,266 And I said, "I'm tormented by something 573 00:34:54,266 --> 00:34:56,767 that has bothered me my whole adult life." 574 00:34:56,767 --> 00:34:58,667 I said, 575 00:34:58,667 --> 00:35:01,433 "Moses died at the House of Prayer, didn't he?" 576 00:35:03,266 --> 00:35:05,166 He said, "Yes, he did." 577 00:35:05,166 --> 00:35:07,867 I said, "Mom killed him?" 578 00:35:07,867 --> 00:35:09,934 He said, "Yes, she did." 579 00:35:11,667 --> 00:35:13,367 I broke down sobbing. 580 00:35:13,433 --> 00:35:15,567 I started screaming and crying. 581 00:35:15,567 --> 00:35:18,667 And I text all my siblings. 582 00:35:18,667 --> 00:35:23,166 I said, "She really did kill Moses 583 00:35:23,166 --> 00:35:25,266 the same way she killed Cathy." 584 00:35:25,266 --> 00:35:27,934 I said, "She really is crazy." 585 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,166 Those were very tough calls for me to make, 586 00:35:40,233 --> 00:35:43,367 because I mean, I love my mom. 587 00:35:43,433 --> 00:35:47,266 I knew that if it was found out that my suspicions were true, 588 00:35:47,266 --> 00:35:48,667 she would go to prison. 589 00:35:48,667 --> 00:35:51,166 [phone numbers dialing] 590 00:35:51,166 --> 00:35:53,467 I knew it was the right thing to do, and I felt like I didn't 591 00:35:53,467 --> 00:35:55,467 deserve to be a mother myself 592 00:35:55,467 --> 00:35:58,266 if I didn't make the call and take that chance 593 00:35:58,266 --> 00:36:01,166 at having them find out the truth about Moses. 594 00:36:01,233 --> 00:36:04,767 It was scary, because part of me 595 00:36:04,767 --> 00:36:06,667 still didn't want my mother to go to jail. 596 00:36:06,667 --> 00:36:08,867 I was hoping some miracle could happen. 597 00:36:08,934 --> 00:36:11,266 And if she was arrested for this, 598 00:36:11,333 --> 00:36:14,967 that she would survive the jail time, 599 00:36:15,033 --> 00:36:17,567 even though she was older, and she would admit 600 00:36:17,567 --> 00:36:18,967 to what she had done, 601 00:36:18,967 --> 00:36:22,266 and justice would be served. 602 00:36:22,266 --> 00:36:25,066 But I knew that for the crime that I was accusing 603 00:36:25,133 --> 00:36:27,166 her of, that was not likely. 604 00:36:27,166 --> 00:36:30,166 But it was a situation where I had to know 605 00:36:30,166 --> 00:36:32,967 if Moses existed, I had to speak out about what 606 00:36:33,033 --> 00:36:36,967 happened to my sister, and I had to be able to live with myself. 607 00:36:37,033 --> 00:36:38,667 I knew at that point 608 00:36:38,667 --> 00:36:42,467 that if I didn't say anything, 609 00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:46,767 I just shouldn't even exist anymore, 610 00:36:46,767 --> 00:36:48,567 because I felt like 611 00:36:48,567 --> 00:36:50,767 any -- any of this could happen to one 612 00:36:50,767 --> 00:36:54,533 of my children, and if I didn't say anything, 613 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,467 then I would have no right to seek justice. 614 00:36:58,467 --> 00:37:02,066 Because if I don't care about someone else's child, 615 00:37:02,066 --> 00:37:07,166 then why should anyone hold sympathy for me, you know, 616 00:37:07,233 --> 00:37:09,033 if I don't care about other people's children. 617 00:37:10,767 --> 00:37:13,467 It was heart-wrenching, but it was -- it needed to be done. 618 00:37:13,467 --> 00:37:16,667 And then Pandora's box opened, 619 00:37:16,667 --> 00:37:19,533 and all these reports opened up. 620 00:37:24,867 --> 00:37:26,867 This is a mug shot from when she was 621 00:37:26,934 --> 00:37:29,367 arrested for Moses. 622 00:37:29,367 --> 00:37:32,967 This is a mug shot from 2017. 623 00:37:34,767 --> 00:37:36,367 I cried when I first saw it. 624 00:37:36,433 --> 00:37:39,567 I could see the pain in her eyes, 625 00:37:39,567 --> 00:37:41,467 the tiredness, 626 00:37:41,467 --> 00:37:43,834 and it makes me very sad. 627 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,100 I knew 628 00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:51,867 that justice had to be served for those children 629 00:37:51,867 --> 00:37:53,767 and, um, 630 00:37:53,834 --> 00:37:57,333 the other victims who suffered at her hand. 631 00:37:58,667 --> 00:38:01,767 My mother blames me for everything that happened. 632 00:38:01,767 --> 00:38:03,467 She feels like it wasn't God's will, 633 00:38:03,467 --> 00:38:06,066 that I took God's will in my own hands. 634 00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:09,166 She pled to 635 00:38:09,166 --> 00:38:13,266 a no contest murder of Emon Harper, Moses. 636 00:38:14,166 --> 00:38:18,367 And she pled to manslaughter for Katonya. 637 00:38:19,767 --> 00:38:21,967 Cathy's body was never discovered. 638 00:38:22,033 --> 00:38:26,066 When my mom was arrested for Moses' death, 639 00:38:26,133 --> 00:38:29,066 they questioned her again, begging her to at least tell 640 00:38:29,133 --> 00:38:32,367 where Cathy's body was, and she acted like she didn't know what 641 00:38:32,367 --> 00:38:33,634 they were talking about. 642 00:38:34,467 --> 00:38:35,667 She never told. 643 00:38:36,767 --> 00:38:39,166 She was never charged in Cathy's death because they never could 644 00:38:39,166 --> 00:38:41,433 find Cathy's body. 645 00:39:04,166 --> 00:39:07,467 I was devastated, couldn't hardly function, 646 00:39:07,533 --> 00:39:10,100 because I felt like there was still 647 00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:12,233 unfinished business between she and I. 648 00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:14,767 I don't understand 649 00:39:14,767 --> 00:39:19,333 how she could be so religious 650 00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:25,634 and not even at the end feel obligated 651 00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:29,767 to tell the truth about any of this. 652 00:39:29,767 --> 00:39:34,467 I feel like my mom needed to tell me that she knew I did 653 00:39:34,467 --> 00:39:36,667 the right thing as a Christian, she raised me to be 654 00:39:36,734 --> 00:39:39,100 a Christian -- to me, she owed that to me. 655 00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:42,166 She owed to tell me, "Joy, I know you did the right thing." 656 00:39:42,166 --> 00:39:45,367 I also wanted her to tell me herself 657 00:39:45,433 --> 00:39:46,867 what really happened to my sister. 658 00:39:46,867 --> 00:39:48,467 I wanted her to tell me herself 659 00:39:48,467 --> 00:39:52,066 what possessed her to do what she did to Moses. 660 00:39:53,467 --> 00:39:55,467 I don't think she meant for Cathy to die. 661 00:39:55,533 --> 00:39:58,266 But I do think, you know, 662 00:39:58,266 --> 00:40:00,567 you hear stories about how, 663 00:40:00,567 --> 00:40:04,667 certain serial killers, the first kill might have been 664 00:40:04,667 --> 00:40:06,867 an accident, then all of a sudden, they just keep 665 00:40:06,867 --> 00:40:08,166 doing it, just keep doing it. 666 00:40:08,233 --> 00:40:10,166 It's like an itch they have to scratch. 667 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,166 If we still had the House of Prayer, 668 00:40:18,166 --> 00:40:20,033 I think she would have kept abusing children. 669 00:40:21,767 --> 00:40:23,433 I think more children would have died. 670 00:40:26,066 --> 00:40:28,567 I do wish I turned my mother in sooner, and that's a guilt -- 671 00:40:28,567 --> 00:40:30,834 that's the one thing that I am guilty about. 672 00:40:32,266 --> 00:40:35,066 It's a tragic, tragic, tragic story. 673 00:40:36,867 --> 00:40:38,266 I pray throughout the day. 674 00:40:38,333 --> 00:40:42,467 Um, I do believe in, you know, going to church and reading 675 00:40:42,467 --> 00:40:45,166 my Bible -- I -- I do believe in that. 676 00:40:46,467 --> 00:40:48,767 I do believe in miracles. I believe miracles happen. 677 00:40:48,767 --> 00:40:51,767 I do believe in God. I believe God uses people. 678 00:40:51,767 --> 00:40:54,767 But my views on the way that she did things, 679 00:40:54,767 --> 00:40:58,166 I don't believe that's normal, and I don't believe that God 680 00:40:58,233 --> 00:40:59,266 uses people to do the things that she did. 681 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,767 ♪ 682 00:41:13,767 --> 00:41:15,000 He was really likable. 683 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,867 He ended up revealing that he comes from a major fortune, 684 00:41:18,867 --> 00:41:21,967 but there is that little voice in your head 685 00:41:21,967 --> 00:41:24,367 that's saying "Something is wrong here." 686 00:41:24,367 --> 00:41:26,066 It's just horrifying. 687 00:41:26,066 --> 00:41:28,667 He did torturous things.