1
00:00:02,266 --> 00:00:04,367
I'm looking at a picture
of Bob Duke.
2
00:00:04,367 --> 00:00:05,867
He's scary-looking.
3
00:00:05,867 --> 00:00:08,166
He looks like
the murderer that he is.
4
00:00:09,467 --> 00:00:10,600
This tore the community apart.
5
00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,700
It tore us under
and-and it ripped
6
00:00:12,700 --> 00:00:13,867
right down the middle.
7
00:00:15,100 --> 00:00:17,367
Half the community
thinks I made it up.
8
00:00:17,367 --> 00:00:19,166
You never wanted to believe
it was an accident.
9
00:00:20,967 --> 00:00:22,767
I was in such turmoil.
10
00:00:22,767 --> 00:00:25,867
I was lost.
I was just... I was a shell.
11
00:00:25,867 --> 00:00:28,900
I was-I was crippled.
Emotionally crippled.
12
00:00:28,900 --> 00:00:30,233
He put me through
a lot of hell.
13
00:00:31,567 --> 00:00:32,533
For me, that is...
14
00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,433
That's the eyes of evil
right there.
15
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:37,734
That's-That's bad [bleep]
16
00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,567
He murdered the two people
in the world
17
00:01:15,567 --> 00:01:17,066
that trusted him the most.
18
00:01:18,066 --> 00:01:20,700
I was nobody.
I was afraid for...
19
00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:22,767
my parents,
my wife, for my children.
20
00:01:22,767 --> 00:01:23,934
I was afraid for everybody.
21
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:25,800
It was terrifying.
22
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:27,567
But I made the mistake
of not believing
23
00:01:27,567 --> 00:01:28,667
he's capable
over the first time,
24
00:01:28,667 --> 00:01:30,266
and I wasn't gonna
do it again.
25
00:01:30,266 --> 00:01:32,567
I cannot watch people die
at his hand again.
26
00:01:32,567 --> 00:01:35,467
Knowing full well
that I could have done
something about it.
27
00:01:35,467 --> 00:01:38,166
You know, that's something
I live with every day.
Is the fact that
28
00:01:38,166 --> 00:01:40,834
I didn't say anything
and he murdered 'em.
29
00:01:44,300 --> 00:01:47,433
I wish I could have believed
that he was capable of that.
30
00:01:48,500 --> 00:01:50,233
They would still be here.
[sniffles]
31
00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:55,533
[inhales and exhales deeply]
32
00:02:03,767 --> 00:02:04,834
[distorted]
33
00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:17,266
[creaking]
34
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,166
[door creaking]
35
00:02:38,266 --> 00:02:39,567
That's a picture of Bob.
36
00:02:39,567 --> 00:02:41,934
That's pretty much
when we first started
hanging out.
37
00:02:42,867 --> 00:02:44,033
A long time ago.
38
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,266
I cared for him deeply.
We were best friends.
39
00:02:47,266 --> 00:02:49,367
He was like
the brother I never had.
40
00:02:49,367 --> 00:02:51,100
And, uh, you know,
41
00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:52,667
if things had
happened differently,
42
00:02:52,667 --> 00:02:53,934
we'd probably
still be friends.
43
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,166
He was clean-cut.
44
00:02:56,166 --> 00:02:58,867
All-American
cross country runner.
45
00:02:58,867 --> 00:03:01,200
Straight A's.
He was, you know...
46
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,667
every parent's, you know,
dream child, I'd imagine.
47
00:03:04,567 --> 00:03:06,367
Even my dad thought Bob
was better than me.
48
00:03:06,367 --> 00:03:07,367
My own dad.
49
00:03:07,367 --> 00:03:08,467
He thought Bob was great.
50
00:03:08,467 --> 00:03:10,066
He wanted me to be
more like Bob.
51
00:03:11,867 --> 00:03:15,066
Looking at this picture,
I see innocence. [scoffs]
52
00:03:15,066 --> 00:03:17,500
Compared to-to what
he became later.
53
00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:19,567
I know beyond
a shadow of a doubt
54
00:03:19,567 --> 00:03:21,734
that Bob would have killed
again and again and again.
55
00:03:22,467 --> 00:03:23,533
He was a monster.
56
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,166
This is a picture of me in...
57
00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:49,066
I want to say, my junior year?
58
00:03:49,066 --> 00:03:50,233
Maybe my sophomore year.
59
00:03:51,266 --> 00:03:53,400
I was kind of a nerd.
60
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,133
I'm still pretty overweight.
61
00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,700
I actually was born
in Salt Lake,
62
00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:01,600
lived in Idaho till I was
about nine years old,
63
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,433
and then moved up here
to Wyoming.
64
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:05,800
And I was, you know,
65
00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,166
kind of messed with.
66
00:04:07,166 --> 00:04:09,367
We call
bullying nowadays. But...
67
00:04:09,367 --> 00:04:11,433
uh, I was-I was given grief
for being heavy.
68
00:04:12,567 --> 00:04:14,000
I just kind of kept to myself.
69
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,266
I didn't have
a lot of friends.
70
00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:25,266
Everything's really
cliquish at school,
71
00:04:25,266 --> 00:04:27,567
and I kinda didn't fit
into any of 'em.
72
00:04:29,166 --> 00:04:31,300
I knew who Bob Duke was
'cause he was
73
00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:34,333
schoolteachers kid and,
you know, he wore
the nice clothes.
74
00:04:35,467 --> 00:04:37,000
You know,
he was kind of the prep.
75
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,800
You know, the kids that,
kind of uppity.
76
00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,667
They did
really well in school.
77
00:04:41,667 --> 00:04:43,066
They were popular.
78
00:04:43,066 --> 00:04:46,767
You weren't of his clique,
he would just down dress you.
79
00:04:46,767 --> 00:04:49,266
He was arrogant.
He was an [bleep]. Yeah.
80
00:04:49,266 --> 00:04:51,100
He was really mean
to people for no reason.
81
00:04:51,100 --> 00:04:52,667
Thought he was better
than everybody.
82
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,500
When he bullied you,
it was personal.
83
00:04:55,500 --> 00:04:57,266
It was like,
didn't complete his day
84
00:04:57,266 --> 00:04:59,166
if he wasn't messing
with someone.
85
00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,867
There was this girl that
was kinda heavy, too, and...
86
00:05:03,867 --> 00:05:05,867
I remember one day he thought
it would be really funny
87
00:05:05,867 --> 00:05:07,367
to take a hat pin
88
00:05:07,367 --> 00:05:08,867
and walk by her in the hall
and stab her with it
89
00:05:08,867 --> 00:05:10,166
and then walk off.
90
00:05:13,367 --> 00:05:15,100
Of course, she screamed out
and freaked out
91
00:05:15,100 --> 00:05:16,166
and went to the nurse.
92
00:05:17,667 --> 00:05:20,266
He definitely, you know,
meant to hurt her.
93
00:05:20,266 --> 00:05:22,734
Uh, it was, and he thought
it was funny about it.
94
00:05:24,367 --> 00:05:26,567
But I thought that was
really messed up, you know?
95
00:05:26,567 --> 00:05:29,467
But, um, anyone else
that would have done that,
96
00:05:29,467 --> 00:05:31,033
and I just didn't really
care for him.
97
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,900
Bob had been putting me down
and just degrading me
98
00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:47,333
and bullying me
for at least a year.
99
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,000
And... that's when...
100
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,867
[chuckles]
...I guess I'd had enough
101
00:05:51,867 --> 00:05:53,533
and he'd push me to the edge.
102
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,367
So the bell was about to ring.
103
00:06:00,367 --> 00:06:03,000
And I wanted to be early
'cause I like to be early
104
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,000
'cause I'm gonna pick a seat,
usually in the back.
105
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,200
And, uh,
he was walking ahead of me
106
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:09,734
talking to someone,
just being...
107
00:06:10,266 --> 00:06:12,000
being Bob. Just being very,
108
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,767
you know,
arrogant and impudent. And...
109
00:06:14,767 --> 00:06:16,967
I asked him, "Excuse me,"
to get by him.
110
00:06:18,967 --> 00:06:21,467
He said something like,
calm down, fat boy or...
111
00:06:21,467 --> 00:06:23,634
or chill out or something.
It was very condescending.
112
00:06:26,567 --> 00:06:27,734
And at that point...
113
00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:29,767
I guess I snapped.
114
00:06:29,767 --> 00:06:30,800
Screw you.
115
00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:31,767
[Bob groans]
116
00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:33,266
I shoved him
117
00:06:33,266 --> 00:06:34,934
and proceeded to throw
a pounding on him.
118
00:06:36,767 --> 00:06:38,266
This is the first time
I ever been in a fight,
119
00:06:38,266 --> 00:06:40,266
but I just had
enough from him.
120
00:06:40,266 --> 00:06:43,200
I had enough
of being talked down to
and had enough of...
121
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,934
you know, that him thinking
he's better than everybody.
122
00:06:48,467 --> 00:06:50,266
I hit him, like, four times.
123
00:06:50,266 --> 00:06:52,100
I expected him to fight back.
124
00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:54,100
But he just stood there
and looked at me dumbly.
125
00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:56,467
And, uh, I hit him
hard enough, actually,
126
00:06:56,467 --> 00:06:58,867
that he ended up
having a big lump.
127
00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,467
The teachers intervened.
128
00:07:02,467 --> 00:07:04,433
We took Bob
down to the nurse and...
129
00:07:05,066 --> 00:07:06,133
then the ambulance.
130
00:07:07,066 --> 00:07:08,000
They thought
he had a concussion.
131
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,333
He actually had to go
to the hospital.
132
00:07:10,667 --> 00:07:12,266
And they took me
to the principal's office.
133
00:07:12,266 --> 00:07:13,300
And then
the police were called
134
00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:15,166
and I got
a three-day suspension.
135
00:07:23,500 --> 00:07:25,867
When I came back,
I was actually...
136
00:07:25,867 --> 00:07:28,500
Had some sort of popularity.
I had... I...
137
00:07:28,500 --> 00:07:29,700
I had people
coming up to me saying,
138
00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:30,967
"Hey, man, good job,"
you know?
139
00:07:30,967 --> 00:07:32,166
'Cause they'd seen
the way Bob was, too.
140
00:07:34,166 --> 00:07:36,567
I expected
an entirely different welcome.
141
00:07:36,567 --> 00:07:38,400
I expected, you know,
everyone be like,
"You're a jerk."
142
00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,100
You know? "We don't want
to hang out with you."
143
00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:43,800
I realized after that happened
when people started
coming up to me,
144
00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,834
telling me, "Good job."
[chuckles] That I wasn't
the only
145
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,000
victim in this.
146
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,200
When I seen him first time,
the way he treated people,
147
00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,867
but I realized
that the scope of...
148
00:07:55,066 --> 00:07:56,934
people that-that really
didn't like him.
149
00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,400
He preyed upon the weak
150
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,834
because it made him
feel better about himself
and made him feel powerful.
151
00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:07,700
After that incident,
Bob didn't mess with
me anymore.
152
00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:09,166
He didn't see me
as a pushover anymore.
153
00:08:20,867 --> 00:08:22,266
We were both
really into fitness.
154
00:08:22,266 --> 00:08:24,867
Even though
I was still a fat kid,
I was trying not to be.
155
00:08:24,867 --> 00:08:27,166
So I went to work out,
and Bob was there.
156
00:08:27,567 --> 00:08:29,166
Hey, Roger.
157
00:08:29,166 --> 00:08:31,266
Didn't know
you were into working out.
158
00:08:31,266 --> 00:08:33,667
And we're like, "Hey, man,
would you spot me?"
159
00:08:33,667 --> 00:08:35,433
That's how our
friendship blossomed,
looking back.
160
00:08:36,867 --> 00:08:38,734
We realized
our interests were similar.
161
00:08:39,667 --> 00:08:41,667
Did you see that
new action movie yet, dude?
162
00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:43,200
Which one?
163
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,567
We used to watch hitman movies
where, you know,
164
00:08:45,567 --> 00:08:48,066
the hitman would make
thousands of dollars for,
165
00:08:48,066 --> 00:08:49,867
you know, a moment of time.
166
00:08:49,867 --> 00:08:51,700
You know, killing someone,
pulling a trigger.
167
00:08:51,700 --> 00:08:52,967
[Bob Duke]
It's freaking sick, man.
168
00:08:52,967 --> 00:08:55,000
He fights off, like,
three guys at once.
169
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,567
[Roger Brauburger]
And we talked about
what a great life will be,
170
00:08:56,567 --> 00:08:58,667
you know,
making all that money.
171
00:08:58,667 --> 00:09:00,367
And that would be so cool,
you know, and...
172
00:09:00,367 --> 00:09:01,634
I didn't think anything of it.
173
00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:03,667
[inaudible]
174
00:09:03,667 --> 00:09:05,066
For me, it was all talk.
175
00:09:05,767 --> 00:09:06,800
Even though
we talked about it,
176
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,000
romanticized about it,
I never thought
177
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,767
in a million years
that Bob thought
it was an option.
178
00:09:11,767 --> 00:09:13,500
Even if-if I go back
and tell myself
179
00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:15,100
then what I know now,
180
00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:16,767
I don't know
if I'd believe me, myself.
181
00:09:16,767 --> 00:09:18,967
You don't wanna believe that
anyone's capable of murder.
182
00:09:20,567 --> 00:09:21,533
[mimicking gunshot]
183
00:09:29,166 --> 00:09:30,567
So Bob and I talked about
184
00:09:30,567 --> 00:09:33,100
how badass it would be
to be that agile, and...
185
00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:36,467
you know,
and I learned that style of,
you know, fighting.
186
00:09:36,467 --> 00:09:38,033
And we decided
to join taekwondo.
187
00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:40,967
He was a lot better
than I was at it.
188
00:09:41,767 --> 00:09:43,600
I mean, he could
whoop my ass by then.
189
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,667
I mean, he was...
He had the skills and...
190
00:09:45,667 --> 00:09:47,867
and he was just a stronger,
a lot stronger than me.
191
00:09:47,867 --> 00:09:50,133
It was at the point
where he was actually
helping teach a class,
192
00:09:50,567 --> 00:09:51,800
'cause he was that good.
193
00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:55,567
We had this one tournament
we were fighting
each other
194
00:09:55,567 --> 00:09:57,934
for first and
second place. And...
195
00:09:58,767 --> 00:10:01,367
I had thrown
a fake roundhouse.
196
00:10:01,367 --> 00:10:03,767
So I threw my foot
over his head,
197
00:10:03,767 --> 00:10:05,000
touched down
with the ball of my foot
198
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,734
and came back
and got him with a point.
199
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:08,634
And that really upset him.
200
00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:12,433
I could see
the rage in his eyes.
201
00:10:15,667 --> 00:10:17,000
In that moment,
I was looking in the eyes
202
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,967
of a predator
and I was the prey.
203
00:10:18,967 --> 00:10:21,166
I was-I was just...
I was a loose end.
204
00:10:23,567 --> 00:10:26,467
And it was terrifying.
205
00:10:26,467 --> 00:10:28,634
When the ref said go again,
he just came at me and...
206
00:10:30,367 --> 00:10:31,567
It was a brutal attack.
207
00:10:31,567 --> 00:10:32,867
He wasn't trying
to pull any punches.
208
00:10:32,867 --> 00:10:34,100
It wasn't about
scoring points.
209
00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:35,333
It was about beating on me.
210
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,066
It was to beat my ass.
211
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,066
And, of course,
the ref had to stop the fight.
212
00:10:43,066 --> 00:10:46,300
Stand us both back up
and they took a point from him
and gave him a warning.
213
00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:47,266
And then we continued.
214
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:50,700
Even though we were buddies,
215
00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:52,667
I know Bob always kind of
looked down on me.
216
00:10:53,467 --> 00:10:55,166
I think when I got
the point off of Bob,
217
00:10:55,166 --> 00:10:56,600
it was
a personal insult to him.
218
00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,033
And then,
you know, it was over
from that point. He was...
219
00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:00,867
He was done playing.
220
00:11:00,867 --> 00:11:02,233
And he ended up
winning the bout.
221
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,467
Of course,
we had to stand up there
to get the trophies.
222
00:11:06,467 --> 00:11:07,867
But after that,
he just didn't
have anything
223
00:11:07,867 --> 00:11:09,567
to do with me, really,
for a couple of weeks.
224
00:11:11,266 --> 00:11:12,767
I don't think Bob thought
225
00:11:12,767 --> 00:11:14,400
that anyone could be
better than him at anything.
226
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,934
I think-think he thought
he was the smartest,
the best.
227
00:11:19,066 --> 00:11:20,867
He was successful at anything
he put his mind to.
228
00:11:22,367 --> 00:11:24,433
I always knew he thought
he was better than me.
229
00:11:25,066 --> 00:11:26,200
Didn't bother me.
230
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:27,367
It wasn't something
I dwelled on.
231
00:11:27,367 --> 00:11:29,567
It wasn't like, "Oh, well,
he thinks I'm a loser."
232
00:11:29,967 --> 00:11:31,333
We were friends.
233
00:11:32,367 --> 00:11:34,734
And at the time,
you know, I mean,
I just went along with it.
234
00:11:36,367 --> 00:11:38,467
I look back and I just wonder
how much he was using me
235
00:11:38,467 --> 00:11:40,867
and how much
was actually friendship.
236
00:11:40,867 --> 00:11:42,900
And at the same time
I'm repulsed
237
00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:44,700
that I ever called him friend.
238
00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:47,700
You know,
because of how evil he is.
239
00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:49,834
Just absolutely,
positively evil.
240
00:11:57,166 --> 00:11:59,367
[Roger] So when we were
in high school, Bob talked
about going to college.
241
00:11:59,367 --> 00:12:00,767
You know,
he wanted to do something,
242
00:12:00,767 --> 00:12:03,000
get out of this town
and do something
with his life.
243
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,867
This town
was too small for him.
244
00:12:06,066 --> 00:12:08,300
Man, I can't wait
to get out of here.
245
00:12:08,300 --> 00:12:10,100
[Roger]
My parents didn't have
the money for college,
246
00:12:10,100 --> 00:12:12,400
and once
I got into high school
and I started doing drugs
247
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:13,767
and my grades
went downhill directly.
248
00:12:13,767 --> 00:12:15,900
So scholarships
weren't in my future either.
249
00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:17,700
But I'm sure
they were for him.
250
00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:20,066
He didn't want to stay here.
He didn't want to be
tied here.
251
00:12:20,066 --> 00:12:21,800
I'm so sick of this place.
252
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,767
[Roger]
I expressed several times
University of Michigan.
253
00:12:24,767 --> 00:12:26,100
What about you and Liana?
254
00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:27,667
But, uh,
somewhere in our junior year,
255
00:12:27,667 --> 00:12:29,900
Bob started dating a girl
who was a sophomore.
256
00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:31,600
What are you guys
doing out here?
257
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,667
Liana was a very pretty girl.
258
00:12:33,667 --> 00:12:36,266
And she was all about Bob.
She doted on him.
259
00:12:36,266 --> 00:12:38,667
She worshipped the ground
he walked on. I mean...
260
00:12:38,667 --> 00:12:41,367
she-she wanted a life with him
from day one.
261
00:12:41,367 --> 00:12:43,066
She wanted a family.
She wanted,
262
00:12:43,066 --> 00:12:45,667
you know,
the white picket fence
and the two and a half kids.
263
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,400
It was our senior year
in high school
264
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,567
when Bob had mentioned to me
that she was pregnant.
265
00:12:58,567 --> 00:13:01,100
And he felt, uh,
a lot of anxiety.
266
00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:02,667
He didn't know
what he was gonna do.
267
00:13:02,667 --> 00:13:05,400
How his life was gonna change.
He was really uncertain.
268
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,166
I'm sure he probably had
the-the abortion talk
with her.
269
00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:10,467
You know, her being a Mormon,
270
00:13:10,467 --> 00:13:13,367
I'm sure that, you know,
I think this isn't an option.
271
00:13:13,367 --> 00:13:16,066
He told me
that he felt pressured
to marry her.
272
00:13:16,066 --> 00:13:19,266
He thought his life was over
and his plans were shot.
273
00:13:19,266 --> 00:13:21,634
Bob never was...
He never really shared a lot,
274
00:13:22,166 --> 00:13:24,467
emotionally to me.
275
00:13:24,467 --> 00:13:26,467
I mean,
glimpses here and there.
276
00:13:26,467 --> 00:13:28,500
But he kept that facade,
you know?
277
00:13:28,500 --> 00:13:31,567
He show... he showed people
what he wanted to show 'em.
278
00:13:31,567 --> 00:13:34,166
So to catch cracks
here and there,
it was pretty rare.
279
00:13:42,066 --> 00:13:43,467
This was the wedding day.
280
00:13:44,367 --> 00:13:46,767
Bob and Liana's wedding day.
281
00:13:47,767 --> 00:13:49,300
Yeah.
282
00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:51,567
That's an old picture.
It's crazy.
283
00:13:52,667 --> 00:13:53,567
Again...
284
00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:56,400
innocence, uh, you know,
285
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,166
beginnings,
new beginnings, and...
286
00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:01,166
So much hope. You know?
287
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,066
So much hope.
288
00:14:04,066 --> 00:14:06,367
That it would be the same day
as their graduation.
289
00:14:06,367 --> 00:14:08,667
Graduated at ten,
he was married at two.
290
00:14:08,667 --> 00:14:12,000
And he was...
freaking out a little bit.
291
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,533
You could tell
he was a little distraught.
292
00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:15,233
This was a turning point.
293
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,734
He had a beautiful woman
and a great career.
294
00:14:35,266 --> 00:14:36,567
He was successful.
295
00:14:36,567 --> 00:14:38,033
I don't think
Bob seen it that way.
296
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:40,367
I think the
carpet laying business
297
00:14:40,367 --> 00:14:42,200
was just something
to make money.
298
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,433
I don't think that's anything
he really wanted to do
for a living.
299
00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:49,033
He was forced
to make changes
to become...
300
00:14:49,767 --> 00:14:51,567
more responsible
and be responsible
301
00:14:51,567 --> 00:14:53,567
for the lives
of his wife and son.
302
00:14:53,567 --> 00:14:57,567
Bob kept
their relationship separate
from our relationship
303
00:14:57,567 --> 00:14:59,967
enough that I never really got
to see them interact
304
00:14:59,967 --> 00:15:02,767
but once or twice,
in the whole time I knew him.
305
00:15:04,667 --> 00:15:05,767
[man] Yeah,
it's about to get pretty busy.
306
00:15:05,767 --> 00:15:07,100
[Roger]
My dad was a carpenter.
307
00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:09,867
So I started
learning carpentry
when I was 12.
308
00:15:09,867 --> 00:15:12,400
And Bob knew that.
Occasionally hired me
to do the...
309
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,767
the woodwork or,
you know,
310
00:15:14,767 --> 00:15:16,266
trim work or whatever.
311
00:15:16,266 --> 00:15:18,600
One time we came back
to his house from doing a job
312
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,367
and he was gonna
pay me for my time.
313
00:15:22,667 --> 00:15:24,667
And Erik came rushing up.
314
00:15:24,667 --> 00:15:26,867
"Daddy! Daddy."
And I seen him stiff-arm him,
315
00:15:26,867 --> 00:15:28,867
and say, "Liana,
take care of your son."
316
00:15:28,867 --> 00:15:30,000
Get this kid out of here.
317
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,333
Roger and I are
trying to talk.
318
00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:33,567
His son stopped in his tracks
319
00:15:33,567 --> 00:15:35,433
and looked like
he was heartbroken.
320
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:38,934
Then Liana came
and whisked him away.
321
00:15:39,467 --> 00:15:40,934
Daddy's just busy, okay?
322
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,467
You don't stiff-arm
your child, you know.
323
00:15:47,467 --> 00:15:51,000
I don't know. It's just...
It's stuck in my mind.
324
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,200
And to this day,
like, I can see it...
325
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,133
like it was yesterday.
It stuck in my mind. It's...
326
00:15:56,166 --> 00:15:58,567
just, like, what the f...
What the hell are you doing?
327
00:15:58,567 --> 00:15:59,867
You know? That's your child.
328
00:15:59,867 --> 00:16:02,000
Maybe, hey, pick him up
and hug him and...
329
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,000
you know, hold him and then,
you know, write me a check
330
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,166
or say, "Hey, I'll be with you
in a little while, buddy."
331
00:16:06,166 --> 00:16:09,867
You know?
Yeah, it didn't seem right.
332
00:16:09,867 --> 00:16:12,667
In my mind,
maybe he was just
having a bad day
333
00:16:12,667 --> 00:16:15,000
and just wanted to get me paid
and get me out on my way.
334
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,166
So he could be a family man.
335
00:16:16,166 --> 00:16:17,767
But it didn't- it didn't
seem like that to me.
336
00:16:17,767 --> 00:16:19,266
It seemed too commonplace.
337
00:16:19,266 --> 00:16:21,300
Just to knee-jerk reaction.
338
00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:24,567
Like it wasn't...
It just didn't sit right.
339
00:16:24,567 --> 00:16:26,767
Even before
I have-had children,
it didn't sit right
340
00:16:26,767 --> 00:16:28,066
that he would
stiff-arm your son
341
00:16:28,066 --> 00:16:30,333
as he's running to you.
You know?
342
00:16:31,367 --> 00:16:33,467
It wasn't
the lack of emotions,
343
00:16:33,467 --> 00:16:35,166
but it was almost
the opposite.
344
00:16:35,166 --> 00:16:37,834
Like, Erik was a nuisance,
and that was it.
345
00:16:44,867 --> 00:16:47,700
This is a picture of Bob
and his son Erik.
346
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:50,000
And one of
the few pictures actually
where I see them together.
347
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,000
And, uh...
God, he was
a cute little kid, man.
348
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:54,767
He's just adorable.
349
00:16:54,767 --> 00:16:56,700
Looked just like Bob.
A spitting image.
350
00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:59,233
I mean,
he could not deny
it was his-it was his son.
351
00:16:59,967 --> 00:17:01,600
Bob loved that pickup.
352
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,266
He was always cleaning it
and taking care of it.
What not.
353
00:17:04,266 --> 00:17:06,734
I honestly believe
he loved that truck
more than he did his family.
354
00:17:07,467 --> 00:17:08,734
That's the way
it seemed to me.
355
00:17:09,967 --> 00:17:11,767
Even in this photo,
you know, it's...
356
00:17:11,767 --> 00:17:14,767
He's not holding Erik,
he's holding his truck.
357
00:17:14,767 --> 00:17:15,867
I don't know. [exhales]
358
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:20,467
I didn't see a lot of love
on Bob's part
359
00:17:20,467 --> 00:17:22,834
to love and affection
towards Erik or Liana.
360
00:17:36,467 --> 00:17:38,333
Thanks for the ride, man.
See you tomorrow.
361
00:17:39,767 --> 00:17:41,367
Actually, hang on a second.
362
00:17:41,367 --> 00:17:42,867
[Roger] Bob and I
had finished a job,
363
00:17:42,867 --> 00:17:46,266
and he says,
"Hold on a second.
I want to talk to you."
364
00:17:46,266 --> 00:17:48,567
He's like,
"Remember when we talked
about murder for hire stuff?"
365
00:17:48,567 --> 00:17:49,967
I'm like, "Yeah,
and how he's ever been like.
366
00:17:49,967 --> 00:17:52,467
Yeah, we talked
about that years ago."
367
00:17:52,467 --> 00:17:55,066
And, uh, he says,
"Well, I-I want you to...
368
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,333
I want you to kill
my wife and kid."
369
00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:01,166
I'm, like, "What?"
370
00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:02,967
I mean, I'd pay you for it.
371
00:18:04,166 --> 00:18:06,166
[Roger]
And he offered me $15,000.
372
00:18:06,767 --> 00:18:09,166
And... I was taken aback.
373
00:18:09,166 --> 00:18:11,467
I was like, "What the hell?"
You know? And...
374
00:18:11,467 --> 00:18:13,066
I told him that was laughable.
375
00:18:13,066 --> 00:18:15,000
It was... Dude, what the hell?
376
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,567
You know. Get a divorce.
377
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:18,433
Are you kidding?
378
00:18:19,367 --> 00:18:20,266
[scoffs]
379
00:18:20,667 --> 00:18:21,834
I kind of blew it off.
380
00:18:22,667 --> 00:18:24,266
I didn't think
nothing of it, you know.
381
00:18:24,266 --> 00:18:26,767
Like, probably he's...
He's lost his dad marbles.
382
00:18:26,767 --> 00:18:28,166
You know,
he'll do the right thing.
383
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,100
And then, uh,
384
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:32,166
he offers me $20,000
to kill 'em.
385
00:18:36,166 --> 00:18:38,467
He was like,
"Well, I'll up it to $20,000."
386
00:18:38,467 --> 00:18:40,000
He goes, "I even have a plan."
387
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,467
He says, "This Wednesday,
I'll be barbecuing.
388
00:18:43,467 --> 00:18:46,100
I'm gonna leave
a .22 out behind the shed."
389
00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:48,467
He said, "I want you
to shoot me in the arm,
try and miss the bone,
390
00:18:48,467 --> 00:18:50,433
shoot my wife
and kid in the head
and chest.
391
00:18:51,166 --> 00:18:52,300
You know, vital shots,
392
00:18:52,300 --> 00:18:54,967
and then take out
as many neighbor kids
as you need to,
393
00:18:54,967 --> 00:18:56,700
to make it
not look so isolated."
394
00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:59,400
He says,
"Then run down the hill.
395
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:00,500
There'll be a car
waiting for you."
396
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:02,734
Bob had this big plan,
this big, elaborate plan
397
00:19:03,567 --> 00:19:05,066
for me to-to get away with it.
398
00:19:05,867 --> 00:19:08,000
No way, man. [chuckles]
399
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,266
[Roger]
Well, it was so outrageous,
400
00:19:10,266 --> 00:19:13,033
I'm not even sure
what I said to him,
but I blew him off.
401
00:19:14,166 --> 00:19:16,634
I never thought
in a million years
he could kill anybody.
402
00:19:17,867 --> 00:19:20,367
I think he probably thought
he could talk me into it.
403
00:19:20,367 --> 00:19:23,567
Maybe I was that...
He thought I was that
much of a follower,
404
00:19:23,567 --> 00:19:26,066
or that we were
that close of friends that
I could do him a favor.
405
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:28,734
I was trying
to be the friend...
406
00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:30,867
to listen to him vent.
407
00:19:30,867 --> 00:19:32,767
And I figured if he talked
about it long enough,
408
00:19:32,767 --> 00:19:34,634
he'd realize
how ridiculous he was being.
409
00:19:36,266 --> 00:19:37,634
[Bob] I can make it
worth your while.
410
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:41,767
Look, Bob,
this isn't funny, man.
411
00:19:41,767 --> 00:19:42,734
You're making a joke, right?
412
00:19:43,367 --> 00:19:44,967
Yeah, but he wasn't joking.
413
00:19:44,967 --> 00:19:46,367
What, do you need more money?
414
00:19:46,367 --> 00:19:48,567
[Roger] He says,
"Look, what's it gonna take?"
415
00:19:48,567 --> 00:19:49,567
Just name your price.
416
00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:52,266
[Roger]
And I said this...
417
00:19:52,266 --> 00:19:54,100
Still trying just
to get him to-to drop it.
418
00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:56,100
And I said, um, "$23,000."
419
00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:58,000
He goes, "Fine. For $23,000,
420
00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,600
I don't want to know when,
and I don't want
to know where.
421
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,000
I just want it done."
422
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,967
And he says,
"And no funny stuff
with my wife."
423
00:20:03,767 --> 00:20:06,166
I'm like,
"Okay, bud. Whatever."
424
00:20:06,166 --> 00:20:08,033
And I blew it off,
and that was it.
425
00:20:18,567 --> 00:20:20,767
When I called my mother,
she was crying.
426
00:20:20,767 --> 00:20:22,367
"Something terrible
has happened."
427
00:20:22,367 --> 00:20:24,967
Wait. What happened?
428
00:20:24,967 --> 00:20:27,400
And she told me Bob's wife
and kid have fallen off
a cliff in the gorge.
429
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:28,367
They're dead.
430
00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:32,066
I think I dropped the phone.
431
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:35,066
I felt ill.
432
00:20:36,567 --> 00:20:40,500
I felt anxiety,
and I wanted to throw up.
433
00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:42,233
I just, I knew
it wasn't an accident.
434
00:20:50,667 --> 00:20:52,233
Well, that's the cliff.
[sighs]
435
00:20:56,667 --> 00:21:00,100
Bob said that
they were up on the cliff,
supposedly picnicking.
436
00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:03,066
Erik was chasing a lizard
and got too close to the edge.
437
00:21:03,066 --> 00:21:05,367
And Liana went to grab him
and they both went over
438
00:21:08,567 --> 00:21:10,467
So, this cliff
would be the equivalent...
439
00:21:10,467 --> 00:21:12,000
Eight hundred and eighty feet
is the equivalent
440
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,200
to about an 18-story drop.
441
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,934
From this drop, it,
no one would survive that.
442
00:21:19,066 --> 00:21:22,533
And it would be a very brutal
and very painful
443
00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:24,233
and terrifying way to die.
444
00:21:26,567 --> 00:21:27,667
This is a huge cliff.
445
00:21:28,467 --> 00:21:29,867
To, uh, walk out on that,
446
00:21:29,867 --> 00:21:32,567
I don't know if you can
see the picture or not,
447
00:21:32,567 --> 00:21:34,767
there's no safe place
to picnic on that cliff.
448
00:21:34,767 --> 00:21:36,467
And it's all loose shale.
449
00:21:36,467 --> 00:21:37,867
It's very foreboding
and treacherous.
450
00:21:37,867 --> 00:21:40,066
It's not a place
you would take your family
for picnic.
451
00:21:41,567 --> 00:21:43,867
Wyoming, especially this area,
452
00:21:43,867 --> 00:21:46,166
especially out towards
the Flaming Gorge
Reservoir area,
453
00:21:46,166 --> 00:21:47,867
the wind always blows.
454
00:21:47,867 --> 00:21:49,900
So, on this particular,
455
00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:51,600
on this particular cliff,
456
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,333
it's, it's easily
a 30, 40 miles an hour
consistent wind.
457
00:21:54,667 --> 00:21:56,400
I mean, uh,
458
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,867
on a calm day,
it's 30 miles an hour.
459
00:21:58,867 --> 00:22:00,767
There's no absolutely,
positively no way
460
00:22:00,767 --> 00:22:02,467
that Liana got out
of that Jeep
461
00:22:02,467 --> 00:22:03,767
or let Erik get out of Jeep
and said,
462
00:22:03,767 --> 00:22:05,667
"This is a great place,
let's picnic."
463
00:22:05,667 --> 00:22:07,867
No mother would let
their child get out
of the Jeep
464
00:22:07,867 --> 00:22:09,000
in a cliff like that.
465
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,000
It's, it just,
it didn't happen.
466
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,166
I think that, uh,
467
00:22:12,867 --> 00:22:14,066
that Bob used this cliff
468
00:22:14,967 --> 00:22:16,734
because he had
some sort of plan,
469
00:22:17,166 --> 00:22:19,000
as, uh, the family man
470
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,100
with the family outing
gone wrong.
471
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:22,934
I knew immediately
it wasn't an accident.
472
00:22:37,100 --> 00:22:40,066
A few of us were there, like,
I think her sister was there.
473
00:22:40,066 --> 00:22:41,467
A couple of family friends.
474
00:22:41,467 --> 00:22:43,066
And Bob was nowhere
to be found.
475
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:46,467
It's, like, an hour
and a half.
476
00:22:46,467 --> 00:22:48,166
I went through, like,
a box and a half of tissues.
477
00:22:49,266 --> 00:22:50,734
And, uh, he finally shows up.
478
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,000
Well, apparently,
he was already planning
the funeral.
479
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,567
The day he killed 'em,
he was off picking caskets
and stuff.
480
00:23:00,567 --> 00:23:01,967
It was crazy.
481
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,834
And he says, "Come outside
with me for a minute."
482
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:11,066
So, we go outside.
483
00:23:12,467 --> 00:23:14,300
And he makes sure
this door is closed,
484
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:15,266
the storm door is closed,
485
00:23:15,266 --> 00:23:16,567
and he looks up
at both windows
486
00:23:16,567 --> 00:23:17,867
to make sure they're closed.
487
00:23:19,867 --> 00:23:20,800
He looks me dead in the eye
and says,
488
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,734
"I need to know
you believe I didn't do this."
489
00:23:28,166 --> 00:23:30,367
And so, that answered any,
any question I had,
490
00:23:30,367 --> 00:23:31,967
that answered any doubt I had
right there.
491
00:23:33,867 --> 00:23:37,100
And, you know,
in my mind's eye,
492
00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:39,533
you know how they say
your life flashes before you,
before you die?
493
00:23:40,166 --> 00:23:41,567
Like, I had three seconds,
494
00:23:41,567 --> 00:23:43,400
three minutes
worth of conversation
in my head
495
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,367
in a split second, thinking,
496
00:23:45,367 --> 00:23:48,100
"This had better be, like,
the best goddamn acting
you've ever done.
497
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:49,967
You know,
'cause your life
depends on it."
498
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:54,934
So, I looked at him
and I said,
499
00:23:54,934 --> 00:23:57,867
"No, no, no.
I know we talked about this.
500
00:23:57,867 --> 00:23:58,734
I know we talked about this,
501
00:23:58,734 --> 00:24:00,100
but there's no way
you could've done that.
502
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:02,867
I, you know, no,
it didn't even cross my mind,
dude."
503
00:24:02,867 --> 00:24:05,567
You know?
And so I sold it to him.
504
00:24:05,567 --> 00:24:08,066
You would never do anything
to either of them.
505
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:11,934
Like, he knew I knew.
506
00:24:12,266 --> 00:24:14,300
Okay.
507
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,934
But I was letting him know
that he had nothing
to worry about because
508
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,834
you know,
who's gonna believe me?
509
00:24:35,266 --> 00:24:37,100
So, instantly
I know it's not...
510
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:38,467
It's not an accident.
511
00:24:38,467 --> 00:24:40,266
Now I'm a target
'cause I know too much.
512
00:24:40,266 --> 00:24:41,600
And if he's willing
to kill his wife and kid,
513
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,266
you know, I'm just a loose end
514
00:24:43,266 --> 00:24:45,066
and something's
gonna happen to me.
515
00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:47,900
I couldn't go to the police.
516
00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:48,900
I mean, there's no way.
517
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:49,867
I was, uh...
518
00:24:51,166 --> 00:24:53,800
I was very well known
519
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,734
to the police department,
to the community.
520
00:24:56,667 --> 00:24:57,934
I was a [bleep] person.
521
00:24:58,767 --> 00:25:00,767
I was a drug addict.
I sold drugs.
522
00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:02,266
I robbed people.
523
00:25:03,166 --> 00:25:04,367
My word was worthless.
524
00:25:04,367 --> 00:25:06,467
I had no credibility
whatsoever.
525
00:25:06,467 --> 00:25:08,000
Uh, even if I went
to the police,
526
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,166
they would laugh me
outta there.
527
00:25:21,967 --> 00:25:25,934
I think that his mom
might've asked me
to be a pall-bearer.
528
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,634
I would've volunteered
to do it.
529
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,100
You know, I felt responsible.
530
00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:33,467
I wanted to crawl
under a rock.
531
00:25:33,467 --> 00:25:35,000
That's what I wanted to do.
[chuckles softly]
532
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,066
And, uh, to help
carry that casket,
533
00:25:37,066 --> 00:25:39,467
just, it tore me up
pretty good.
534
00:25:39,467 --> 00:25:40,800
I had to be a pall-bearer
for his son,
535
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:41,767
knowing he killed him.
536
00:25:43,667 --> 00:25:45,266
Knowing that
if I had said something,
537
00:25:45,266 --> 00:25:47,400
maybe they still
would be here.
538
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,033
That was really hard.
539
00:25:49,567 --> 00:25:50,734
So...
540
00:25:51,266 --> 00:25:52,533
[sighs and clears throat]
541
00:25:55,967 --> 00:25:56,934
[sniffles]
542
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:58,667
[crying softly]
543
00:25:58,667 --> 00:26:01,934
It was tough to carry him
to his final resting place.
544
00:26:02,667 --> 00:26:04,233
'Cause the kid deserves
more than that.
545
00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:12,400
Bob never cried.
546
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,333
I've never seen him shed
a single tear over any of it.
547
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,066
But there was crying
everywhere.
548
00:26:17,066 --> 00:26:19,367
And, uh, Bob never shed a tear
the whole time.
549
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:21,934
He didn't cry at the funeral,
550
00:26:21,934 --> 00:26:23,700
he didn't cry
the day he killed him.
551
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:26,500
Everyone thought
he was just in shock.
552
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:29,467
And I had really wanted
nothing to do with him
after that.
553
00:26:29,467 --> 00:26:30,600
And it's... I stayed away.
554
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,066
I didn't hang out with him,
I didn't do any work for him.
555
00:26:33,066 --> 00:26:35,000
We weren't pals anymore.
556
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,266
Uh, I wanted
to distance myself as much
as I could from him.
557
00:26:38,266 --> 00:26:39,400
You know, [sighs]
558
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,767
I couldn't stomach
being around him.
559
00:26:42,767 --> 00:26:45,834
And if, and if the isolation
triggered some sort of,
560
00:26:46,567 --> 00:26:48,900
uh, you know,
suspicion in him,
561
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:50,467
then so be it.
562
00:26:50,467 --> 00:26:51,400
But I couldn't be around him.
563
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:52,834
I couldn't go hang out
with him, I...
564
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:55,767
And he, he was a...
565
00:26:55,767 --> 00:26:57,066
Dude, he was a murderer.
566
00:26:57,066 --> 00:26:58,266
He was a monster.
567
00:27:09,367 --> 00:27:12,000
When he moved to Texas,
I was actually kinda relieved.
568
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:12,967
He was outta town.
569
00:27:12,967 --> 00:27:13,800
I didn't have to
see him anymore.
570
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,367
I didn't have to worry
about him anymore.
571
00:27:15,367 --> 00:27:18,867
I didn't say anything
to anyone about it
for the longest time.
572
00:27:18,867 --> 00:27:21,166
In fact, I, I, I buried it.
573
00:27:21,166 --> 00:27:23,400
I just pretended
like it didn't happen.
574
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:24,767
And then he called me
from Texas
575
00:27:24,767 --> 00:27:25,834
and brought it all back.
576
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,533
He said something
that made my skin crawl.
577
00:27:30,367 --> 00:27:32,667
He said to me,
"I've done family before.
578
00:27:32,667 --> 00:27:34,066
I didn't care for it.
579
00:27:34,066 --> 00:27:35,734
Will you kill my parents?"
580
00:27:41,367 --> 00:27:42,433
[Roger] Bob called me
out of the blue.
581
00:27:43,367 --> 00:27:45,300
And I'm like,
"So, what's going on?"
582
00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:48,967
You know,
I'm trying to make small talk
and he's like,
583
00:27:48,967 --> 00:27:51,266
"I'm making money,
but I have an opportunity
to make more money."
584
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,166
Uh, okay.
What did you have in mind?
585
00:27:54,166 --> 00:27:56,800
That's when he said, "Look,
I've done family before.
586
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,133
I want my parents murdered."
587
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,066
When he said,
"I had done family before
588
00:28:03,066 --> 00:28:04,600
and I didn't care for it,"
589
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,300
that's the only thing
it could've meant for me,
590
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:08,467
is that he'd killed
his wife and kid.
591
00:28:08,467 --> 00:28:10,000
And that he wanted
his parents dead
592
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,467
and he wasn't willing
to do it.
593
00:28:11,467 --> 00:28:13,066
He was trying to outsource it.
594
00:28:14,867 --> 00:28:16,000
Then he straight told me,
595
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,166
"If you don't do it,
someone else will."
596
00:28:18,166 --> 00:28:19,634
You know, 'cause he...
597
00:28:19,634 --> 00:28:21,900
Him and his brother had taken
a life insurance policy
out of their parents.
598
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:23,634
Like, half a million dollar
life insurance policy.
599
00:28:25,266 --> 00:28:26,033
"I know you need the money.
600
00:28:26,033 --> 00:28:27,600
That's why
I'm offering you first.
601
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:28,967
It's worth $20,000."
602
00:28:30,166 --> 00:28:32,400
And I was like, Jesus Christ.
You know, here we go again.
603
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,467
I'm like, "Well,
let me think about it.
Let me sleep on it."
604
00:28:34,467 --> 00:28:35,433
Click, you know...
605
00:28:41,467 --> 00:28:43,467
And I was, I was like,
"Man, I can't,
606
00:28:43,467 --> 00:28:45,867
I cannot watch people die
at his hands again
607
00:28:45,867 --> 00:28:48,166
knowing full well that
I could've done something
about it."
608
00:28:50,567 --> 00:28:52,000
And I know
what he's capable of.
609
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,400
He murdered
the two people in the world
that trusted him the most.
610
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,934
I mean, he murdered
his flesh and blood.
611
00:29:00,667 --> 00:29:02,000
I had to do something.
612
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,867
I had to say something
to someone.
613
00:29:03,867 --> 00:29:05,667
But what was I gonna say?
614
00:29:05,667 --> 00:29:08,400
You know? [chuckles softly]
Who was I gonna go to?
615
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,667
Who would've believed me?
616
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,000
I didn't expect him
to believe me.
617
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,200
But he was the only person
I could go to.
618
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,567
And I'm like, "Dad.
Here's the deal, man.
619
00:29:28,567 --> 00:29:30,934
This is [bleep] up,
but you have to hear this."
620
00:29:31,567 --> 00:29:32,700
My dad knew my history.
621
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:34,333
He knew my drinking
and my drugging.
622
00:29:35,266 --> 00:29:36,533
I've never been a liar,
623
00:29:37,667 --> 00:29:39,066
but he still
didn't believe me.
624
00:29:40,166 --> 00:29:41,400
I mean,
my dad didn't believe me.
625
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,100
My own dad,
who I worked with
for 20 years
626
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:44,600
and my best friend
in the world.
627
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,100
We were side by side, I mean,
since I was 12 years old.
628
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:50,233
And [chuckles]
he even didn't believe me.
629
00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:52,767
It was unnerving.
630
00:29:52,767 --> 00:29:54,533
Please, Dad, I need your help.
631
00:29:55,867 --> 00:29:58,467
I said, "But this is really,
really real.
632
00:29:58,467 --> 00:29:59,867
And this is happening
right now."
633
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:02,266
And then he told me
straight up,
634
00:30:02,266 --> 00:30:03,867
"Well, if you truly
do believe this,
635
00:30:03,867 --> 00:30:05,567
then you need to get a hold
of the police."
636
00:30:18,266 --> 00:30:20,533
Met him in a ballpark
middle of the night,
637
00:30:21,066 --> 00:30:22,333
lights off.
638
00:30:22,333 --> 00:30:24,667
Got in the car
and told him, you know,
this is what's happening.
639
00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:26,233
What do I do?
640
00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:29,000
And he's like, "Well,
I'm glad you came to me,
641
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,266
but we need to make,
get proof of this
642
00:30:30,266 --> 00:30:34,900
'cause it sounds really,
really farfetched, Rog,
even for you."
643
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:37,100
He and another detective
came to the house and said,
644
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:39,600
"Okay, we're gonna set
this phone up for a tap
645
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,734
to get these recorded
to see if there's any weight
in your story."
646
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,967
The FBI and the local PD
were recording
these conversations.
647
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,934
That was
a conversation recorded
648
00:31:42,867 --> 00:31:43,967
where Bob had instructed me
649
00:31:43,967 --> 00:31:45,834
how he wanted me
to kill his parents.
650
00:31:46,667 --> 00:31:48,133
I could use a .22.
651
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,300
I felt terrible anxiety
652
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:55,667
and an almost crippling fear,
actually.
653
00:31:55,667 --> 00:31:57,767
The whole time
I was talking to him,
654
00:31:57,767 --> 00:32:00,567
and even listening
to myself in this recording,
655
00:32:00,567 --> 00:32:03,500
I don't know how
he did not get a catch on.
656
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:06,166
'Cause I sound nervous
as hell in this.
657
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,266
I was trying to act casual.
658
00:32:08,266 --> 00:32:10,100
They told me,
don't talk casual.
659
00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:11,467
Act like you might
wanna do this,
660
00:32:11,467 --> 00:32:13,667
you know, they were giving me
some coaching.
661
00:32:13,667 --> 00:32:16,500
But I even sound nervous
to myself in that.
662
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:18,567
All this stuff
ran through my mind.
663
00:32:18,567 --> 00:32:21,567
I mean, the what ifs the,
the hows,
664
00:32:21,567 --> 00:32:23,166
the how can--
665
00:32:23,166 --> 00:32:25,166
How can it possibly go right?
666
00:32:25,166 --> 00:32:27,166
Let alone how can it go wrong?
667
00:32:29,166 --> 00:32:30,767
A lot hinged on this.
668
00:32:30,767 --> 00:32:31,767
A lot.
669
00:32:31,767 --> 00:32:33,667
My safety,
his parents' safety,
670
00:32:33,667 --> 00:32:36,700
this could also
quite possibly op--
671
00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:38,967
reopen maybe he killed
his wife and kid.
672
00:32:41,367 --> 00:32:43,700
When I hung the phone up,
I gave my father a hug.
673
00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:45,367
I said, "Dad, we got him.
It's done."
674
00:32:47,367 --> 00:32:49,000
I always wanted it to end.
675
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,233
I didn't wanna have to deal
with Bob Duke ever again.
676
00:33:35,867 --> 00:33:37,900
[Roger] The whole thing
was terrifying.
677
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:41,100
But one of his, uh,
testimonies during trial
678
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:43,567
was that this was all
just a joke.
679
00:33:43,567 --> 00:33:45,667
And I don't hear
any joking in that.
680
00:33:45,667 --> 00:33:47,166
Not a single bit.
681
00:33:48,066 --> 00:33:49,767
He was planning the murder
682
00:33:49,767 --> 00:33:51,333
and he was planning
to murder me too.
683
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:54,166
The FBI said
beyond a shot of a doubt,
684
00:33:54,166 --> 00:33:55,500
that he would've killed me,
685
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:57,367
made it look
like a murder suicide.
686
00:33:57,367 --> 00:33:59,266
Like I killed them
and then killed myself
687
00:33:59,266 --> 00:34:01,000
because I knew too much.
688
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,634
And Bob knew I knew too much.
689
00:34:05,967 --> 00:34:07,767
So, I was a dead man
the whole time.
690
00:34:07,767 --> 00:34:09,533
He was just biding his time.
691
00:34:13,667 --> 00:34:15,400
That's where
the FBI had told me
692
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,367
to see if I could get him
to say,
693
00:34:17,367 --> 00:34:19,834
"I'd done family before.
I didn't care for it."
694
00:34:44,667 --> 00:34:45,700
I remember he asked me if,
695
00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:47,266
"You're not talking
to anybody, are you?"
696
00:34:47,266 --> 00:34:48,400
That was, that was terrifying.
697
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,900
'Cause in the back of my mind,
698
00:34:49,900 --> 00:34:52,667
I just knew that
he was gonna catch on.
699
00:34:52,667 --> 00:34:55,433
And the whole time
I was surrounded by cops
in my parents' house.
700
00:34:56,367 --> 00:34:58,567
It felt like he could see
through the phone.
701
00:34:59,367 --> 00:35:01,066
And, uh, yeah, it was scary.
702
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:13,400
I heard a knock on his door
and he says,
"Hold on a second."
703
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,266
I heard him
put the phone on the counter
and go to the door
704
00:35:16,266 --> 00:35:18,200
and I heard someone
bust the door open
705
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:19,467
and I heard,
"What the [bleep]? "
706
00:35:19,467 --> 00:35:20,700
I heard,
"Up against the wall."
707
00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:23,233
And I heard a bunch
of rustling around for, like,
30 seconds.
708
00:35:23,667 --> 00:35:24,800
Like, just chaos.
709
00:35:25,867 --> 00:35:28,266
He says,
"This is agent Sullen,
so you can hang up now."
710
00:35:28,266 --> 00:35:29,166
Click. And that was over.
711
00:35:29,166 --> 00:35:30,166
It was over. He was busted.
712
00:35:30,166 --> 00:35:32,367
And I'm like, "It's done,
it's over."
713
00:35:34,567 --> 00:35:36,166
That wasn't over. [laughs]
714
00:35:36,667 --> 00:35:38,166
That was just the beginning.
715
00:35:43,567 --> 00:35:45,567
[Roger] I thought in my mind
I didn't have to be afraid.
716
00:35:45,567 --> 00:35:47,600
I thought that finally,
my family and I were safe.
717
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,300
And, you know, um...
718
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:50,433
He was behind bars,
719
00:35:50,433 --> 00:35:52,667
and I figured
he'd be behind bars
for a very long time.
720
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:55,033
So, I celebrated.
721
00:35:55,033 --> 00:35:56,567
You know,
Bob's finally under arrest
722
00:35:56,567 --> 00:36:00,467
and, you know,
he's gonna answer
for his crimes.
723
00:36:00,467 --> 00:36:02,834
You know, I thought,
"It's over, he's going
to prison for life."
724
00:36:04,467 --> 00:36:05,600
Murder for hire,
725
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:06,767
that's not what
they got him on.
726
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,467
After they got him,
727
00:36:19,467 --> 00:36:22,166
um, he applied
to interstate commerce,
728
00:36:22,166 --> 00:36:25,166
which is using
interstate phone lines to plot
or commit a crime.
729
00:36:25,166 --> 00:36:26,634
So, they don't have to
take it to trial.
730
00:36:28,266 --> 00:36:29,333
I was really angry.
731
00:36:29,333 --> 00:36:30,934
You know, I'm thinking,
"He's going away for life."
732
00:36:31,667 --> 00:36:33,100
He's doing 10 years federal,
733
00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:36,166
which means he'll do 80
to 85 % of his time.
734
00:36:36,166 --> 00:36:39,100
Which means in eight years
from the time he's convicted,
735
00:36:39,100 --> 00:36:41,767
I will have to worry
about my safety,
736
00:36:41,767 --> 00:36:44,467
the safety of my family.
737
00:36:44,467 --> 00:36:45,900
I'm like, "Holy crap, man.
738
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:47,867
So, in eight years,
I'm a dead man."
739
00:36:47,867 --> 00:36:48,800
And when he gets out
of prison,
740
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,567
I'm gonna have to protect
my family.
741
00:36:52,867 --> 00:36:55,066
I'm thinking he's thinking
of 10,000 different ways
up there
742
00:36:55,066 --> 00:36:57,266
to kill me and hurt me
every day he's locked up,
743
00:36:57,266 --> 00:36:58,900
'cause he knows it was me.
744
00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:00,867
[chuckles nervously] And yeah,
I think I'm, I'm in danger.
745
00:37:00,867 --> 00:37:02,033
My family's in danger.
746
00:37:03,767 --> 00:37:04,900
But it was also enough
747
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:07,500
to pique the interest
of the local prosecutor
saying,
748
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:08,667
"Well, hell,
if he killed his parents,
749
00:37:08,667 --> 00:37:10,533
what's to say he didn't murder
his wife and kid?"
750
00:37:27,066 --> 00:37:29,734
So, during the trial,
I was the first witness,
key witness.
751
00:37:31,767 --> 00:37:33,900
You know, he was a big,
burly guy, you know?
752
00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:36,367
In prison orange,
and he looked all scary and...
753
00:37:36,367 --> 00:37:39,567
And, uh, I'm like, "Man,
I'm gonna have to face him
in court.
754
00:37:39,567 --> 00:37:40,634
How am I gonna do that?"
755
00:37:42,767 --> 00:37:44,900
And so, I got on the stand
and he was staring at me,
756
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:46,967
and I'm like, "You know what?
I'm here because of you."
757
00:37:46,967 --> 00:37:48,900
You know,
and that's the attitude I had.
758
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:51,200
And, uh, this has
taken my life.
759
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:52,867
You've disturbed my life
with this crap.
760
00:37:52,867 --> 00:37:55,100
And I started...
I stared him down.
761
00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:56,367
And the whole rest
of the trial,
762
00:37:56,367 --> 00:37:57,767
he would make eye contact
with me.
763
00:37:59,667 --> 00:38:02,900
Exactly like
it was just back on the steps
at seventh grade.
764
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:04,266
And he put me
in that position.
765
00:38:04,266 --> 00:38:05,767
And I had had enough.
766
00:38:05,767 --> 00:38:09,000
I had enough of, of,
of him disturbing my life
767
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:09,900
and bullying me around
768
00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:11,567
and treating me
like a piece of garbage
769
00:38:11,567 --> 00:38:13,066
and that I wasn't worth
anything.
770
00:38:18,166 --> 00:38:19,367
Mmm.
771
00:38:21,100 --> 00:38:22,967
Looking at a picture
of Bob Duke.
772
00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:24,967
This is, uh,
773
00:38:24,967 --> 00:38:27,634
either just before the trial
or just after the trial.
774
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,600
It's scary looking.
775
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,166
He looks like the murderer
that he is.
776
00:38:34,667 --> 00:38:36,600
He had no life in his eyes
during the trial.
777
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,000
It was scary.
778
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,700
Uh, even my parents said...
779
00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:42,000
They had mentioned it,
'cause they knew Bob
growing up.
780
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,000
He'd installed the carpet
at my parents' house,
781
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:45,567
and he'd come over
to the house.
782
00:38:45,567 --> 00:38:47,767
You know, my parents knew Bob,
I knew Bob's parents.
783
00:38:47,767 --> 00:38:51,166
And they even said,
"Wow, that's, that's not Bob.
784
00:38:51,166 --> 00:38:53,133
That's, that's a monster,
that's scary."
785
00:38:54,567 --> 00:38:55,967
And if you look at this photo,
786
00:38:55,967 --> 00:38:58,166
you can actually...
you're looking into his eyes.
787
00:38:58,567 --> 00:38:59,467
They look dead.
788
00:38:59,467 --> 00:39:01,200
They look like
a shark's eyes to me.
789
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,166
I mean, that is...
790
00:39:02,867 --> 00:39:04,734
That's the eyes of evil
right there.
791
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,200
The person in this photo
792
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,300
is not the Bob Duke
I grew up with.
793
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:11,800
Absolutely not.
794
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,600
And yes,
I do feel fear from this.
795
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,367
Just looking at this photo
scares me.
796
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,033
Because he was a scary dude.
797
00:39:18,567 --> 00:39:20,834
At the end, he was scary.
798
00:39:37,967 --> 00:39:40,266
When I found out
that he was guilty
on six counts,
799
00:39:40,266 --> 00:39:42,166
it truly felt like
it was over now.
800
00:39:44,867 --> 00:39:46,166
Well, people [sighs]
801
00:39:46,166 --> 00:39:48,200
people, you know,
"Hey, good job,"
blah, blah, blah.
802
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:49,700
"You're a hero,"
and this, that and the other.
803
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:51,600
And, "I'm so proud of you
for doing that."
804
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,100
I tell them, you know,
I did the only thing
I could do.
805
00:39:54,100 --> 00:39:56,367
'Cause at the end of the day,
I've gotta look myself
in the mirror.
806
00:39:58,667 --> 00:40:01,600
So, how I get through the day
is, what happened happened.
807
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:02,834
I can't undo that.
808
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:05,367
I did save his parents life.
809
00:40:05,367 --> 00:40:06,867
He's behind bars
where he belongs.
810
00:40:06,867 --> 00:40:09,233
And, you know,
I just, I move on.
811
00:40:09,767 --> 00:40:10,867
I, I live my life.
812
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,000
Yeah, I have regrets.
813
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,166
I regret--
I have a lot of regrets.
814
00:40:16,166 --> 00:40:17,667
And when the trial ended
815
00:40:17,667 --> 00:40:20,166
and he got six life sentences
out of it,
816
00:40:20,166 --> 00:40:23,967
I felt like his wife and son
could finally rest, so.
817
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,767
[sniffles]
818
00:40:25,767 --> 00:40:27,533
I felt like
I did them justice.
819
00:40:30,367 --> 00:40:31,867
I was talking
to her mom and dad,
820
00:40:31,867 --> 00:40:34,000
and listening to them
praise me and thank me,
821
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,200
and all I could do
was think about it.
822
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,433
I wish I could've done more.
823
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,000
[sniffles]
824
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,767
I wish I, uh,
done [bleep] differently.
825
00:40:43,967 --> 00:40:45,300
So...
826
00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:48,734
I wish I could've believed
that he was capable of it.
[crying softly]
827
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:52,266
They would still be here.
[sniffles]
828
00:40:55,467 --> 00:40:56,467
It's been rodeo, man.
829
00:40:56,467 --> 00:40:58,367
And I felt like the clown
through most of it.
830
00:40:58,767 --> 00:40:59,967
But, uh,
831
00:40:59,967 --> 00:41:01,567
you know, it came out
the way it needed to come out,
832
00:41:01,567 --> 00:41:03,367
and any friends
that I might've lost
through this
833
00:41:03,367 --> 00:41:04,667
weren't true friends anyway.
834
00:41:04,667 --> 00:41:08,200
And people
in the community that will
gossip no matter what,
835
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,767
they can all kiss
my rosy red [bleep].
836
00:41:10,767 --> 00:41:11,600
You know? [laughs]
837
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,567
And, uh, you know,
I did what I had to do
838
00:41:13,567 --> 00:41:15,266
and I saved a couple
of people's lives,
839
00:41:15,266 --> 00:41:16,967
and I'm, I got through it.
840
00:41:16,967 --> 00:41:19,533
I'm a survivor,
not a victim, so.
841
00:41:20,967 --> 00:41:23,066
And I'd do it again
if I had to.