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00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,880
[Raphael Rowe] Zenica Prison,
Bosnia and Herzegovina.
2
00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,720
A decaying former communist
maximum security prison.
3
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,400
Have you shot many people?
4
00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:19,400
Yes.
5
00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:21,480
[in Bosnian] Many. It doesn't bother me.
6
00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,640
[Rowe in English] In a country riddled
with mafia and organized crime,
7
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,720
this prison holds a chilly mix
of extremely dangerous men.
8
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,640
[in Bosnian] I loved to fight.
It was in my blood.
9
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,560
[Rowe in English] From arms dealers
to crime bosses and brutal killers.
10
00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,840
[in Bosnian] I am, in a way, a killer,
but we have hearts too.
11
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,280
[Rowe in English]
I'm going to spend a week
12
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:54,200
locked up inside this 130-year-old prison,
but it's not my first time behind bars.
13
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My name is Raphael Rowe.
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00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,800
I was convicted
in the UK of a murder I didn't commit
15
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and sentenced to life with no parole.
16
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It took me 12 long years to clear my name.
17
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Now I'm traveling the globe
18
00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:16,440
to discover what life is really like
inside the world's toughest prisons.
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[lock clicks]
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Bosnia, Central Europe.
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00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,560
Less than 30 years ago,
this place was a major war zone.
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00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,840
Everywhere you go here in Bosnia,
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00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,320
there is a-- a constant reminder
of the terrible conflict
24
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that took place here, like these
bullet holes from sniper gunfire.
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[gunfire]
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00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,200
After the collapse
of the socialist state of Yugoslavia,
27
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Bosnia declared independence,
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but then a brutal conflict broke out,
29
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drawing in combatants
from across the region.
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-[explosion]
-[woman screaming]
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[Rowe] Over 200,000
were killed in fighting,
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00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,920
massacred or ethnically cleansed.
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00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,520
Two million fled the country.
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00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,760
But the chaotic aftermath of war
35
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,320
meant mafia-style groups moved in.
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00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,240
After the war
came poverty and instability,
37
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where organized criminal networks
were allowed to flourish,
38
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,400
and that's led
to one of Europe's biggest problems
39
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,160
around gunrunning,
drugs and people trafficking.
40
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,080
Today, Bosnia ranks close to Russia
41
00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,880
as one of Europe's worst countries
for organized crime.
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If they're caught,
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00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:02,360
many of these dangerous criminals
get sent to Zenica Prison.
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00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,680
And that's where I'll be spending
the next week.
45
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War devastates lives.
46
00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,240
It breeds brutality
and serious criminality.
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The prison I'm heading to in Bosnia
48
00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,840
is where they keep some of the biggest
organized criminals locked up.
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00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,160
These are people who are known
50
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,720
for their extreme violence
and intimidation,
51
00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,720
and I don't know
what to expect when I get there,
52
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,000
and it won't be long now.
53
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,760
Maximum security Zenica Prison
has a fearsome reputation.
54
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,200
After the Bosnian War,
55
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,160
there were widespread
human rights violations
56
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,080
and even torture here.
57
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,720
So, I hope they'll treat me right.
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[officer in Bosnian] Turn to the wall.
Raise your hands.
59
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:08,800
We will conduct a pat-down search
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00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,280
in case you have
anything forbidden with you.
61
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,880
Okay, put your hands down. Turn to me.
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00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:18,120
We can go in now.
63
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,600
You have to be naked for this search.
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00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:24,800
Open your mouth.
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00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,680
Tongue up and down.
66
00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,080
Look to the left. To the right.
67
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:34,600
Take off your underwear.
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00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,720
[Rowe in English] I've been subjected
to a lot of prison strip searches,
69
00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,440
and this is one of the more humiliating.
70
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,960
[officer in Bosnian]
Slightly lift up your genitals.
71
00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,600
-[Rowe grunts]
-[officer] Okay. Okay. Turn around.
72
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,160
-[Rowe grunts]
-Squat.
73
00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:55,880
-Cough.
-[Rowe coughs]
74
00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:57,320
[officer] Good.
75
00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:01,680
Go in there.
76
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,240
Stop by the wall.
77
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[Rowe in English]
What a thorough process that was.
78
00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:10,480
I mean, stripped me naked,
looked under my bollocks,
79
00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,440
made me squat and cough.
80
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,800
They really are thorough,
um, in terms of making sure
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00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,200
that the prisoners
who come into this prison
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00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:21,440
don't have any contraband on them.
83
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,320
[officer in Bosnian] Stop. Stay.
84
00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,360
Put on the trousers and shirt. Okay.
85
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,960
[Rowe in English]
Forcing prisoners to wear a uniform
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00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,840
is one way of showing
you have to conform to the rules here.
87
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,240
Not the warmest clothes.
Uh, at least I got a uniform.
88
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,080
[officer in Bosnian] Come with me.
89
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,920
[officers chattering]
90
00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,200
[Rowe in English] The buildings,
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00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:54,800
there's one or two
that look like they're new,
92
00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,200
but for the most part,
93
00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,320
this place is broken.
94
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,760
I'm now on my way to a cellblock,
where I'm gonna meet my cellmates
95
00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:07,680
for the very first time.
96
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,080
My heart is racing.
97
00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,440
[officer speaks Bosnian]
98
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,080
[chattering]
99
00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,480
[Rowe] This wing houses many
violent men and those convicted of arms,
100
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,840
drugs and people trafficking.
101
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,560
[officer in Bosnian] This is the new one.
102
00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,400
[Rowe in English] I could be sharing
a cell with mafia bosses or murderers.
103
00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,880
[chattering]
104
00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,000
[prisoner in Bosnian] Remove your shoes.
105
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:44,400
Come in.
106
00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,000
[Rowe in English] Okay. Me?
107
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:48,240
[prisoner] Yes.
108
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,520
-Elvis.
-Elvis. Raphael.
109
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,160
Raphael. [speaks Bosnian]
110
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:53,240
Nice to meet you.
111
00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,760
One, two, three, four, five.
Six people in here?
112
00:06:58,840 --> 00:06:59,680
[Elvis] Uh.
113
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,200
-[Rowe] Five.
-[Elvis] Yes.
114
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,640
-[prisoner] Five with you.
-[Rowe] Four plus me is five.
115
00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,200
-Yes, yes.
-[Rowe] Okay.
116
00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:08,240
[in Bosnian] Let's make your bed.
117
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:11,720
Let's make your bed right now.
118
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:14,240
[in English] Okay.
119
00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,080
[in Bosnian] Look.
This is how it has to be.
120
00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:18,080
[Rowe in English] Okay.
121
00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:19,840
[Elvis in Bosnian] Hold it there.
122
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,080
[in English] Are you in this cell as well?
123
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:27,040
Yes, I am.
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00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:28,680
-[Rowe] My name is Raphael.
-Eldin.
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00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,200
[in Bosnian] Don't talk too much
while we're making the bed!
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00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,000
Slip it under.
127
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Take it here.
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Pillow.
129
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:43,320
It's done.
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00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:46,240
[in English] Thank you for helping.
131
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,240
[in Bosnian] Did you bring cigarettes?
You smoke?
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[in English] No.
133
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[in Bosnian] Did you bring anything?
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No.
135
00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:59,720
[Elvis] What type of vest is this?
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[in English] What?
You like my body warmer?
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00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,280
[in Bosnian] You like me
to take it off you?
138
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:06,920
-[chuckles]
-[Elvis] Huh?
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[laughing]
140
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[Rowe in English]
This isn't the friendliest of welcomes.
141
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,600
[Elvis in Bosnian]
Do you enjoy cleaning windows?
142
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,560
-[in English] These windows?
-[Elvis] Yeah.
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00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,560
[in Bosnian] Give him that newspaper.
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Bring him this bottle.
145
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It has to be kept clean in here.
146
00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,480
-[Rowe] Hmm.
-Is there a problem? Come on!
147
00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:31,920
-[Rowe in English] Okay.
-[Elvis] There.
148
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:34,840
[Rowe] Hmm.
149
00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,240
It feels like you're asking me to do this…
150
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[squeaking]
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00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,360
…not because it needs doing,
but just because you wanted me to do it.
152
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,520
[Elvis in Bosnian]
You need to do as you are told.
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Because this is prison.
154
00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,280
Not kindergarten.
155
00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:52,880
[in English] No, of course.
156
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,040
And are all the other cells
along this corridor the same as this cell?
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00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,480
[in Bosnian] Don't wave your hands around
when you're talking to me.
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00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:06,360
[in English] Oh, right. It's just,
um, when I talk, I get animated.
159
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,120
[in Bosnian] But I don't allow that
in front of me.
160
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[in English] What are you here for?
161
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[in Bosnian] For murder
and organized crime.
162
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[in English] So are you
an organized crime boss?
163
00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:20,840
[Elvis] Yes.
164
00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,720
-[laughs]
-You like that title?
165
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You seem to smile about that fact.
166
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,920
Finally, one of my other cellmates
comes to my rescue.
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00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,360
If it's easier for you to talk to me
since I speak English,
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00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,200
then step over here and talk to me.
169
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,320
-[Rowe] Sorry, I didn't get your name.
-Eldin.
170
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:39,720
-[Rowe] Eldin.
-Eldin.
171
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,880
-Am I pronouncing that right? Eldin?
-[Eldin] Yes.
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00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:42,840
Eldin.
173
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[in Bosnian] And this is
our cellmate Muharem.
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00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,080
[Rowe in English] Ah, this is another one.
175
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:48,400
-Hi.
-[speaks Bosnian]
176
00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:49,840
-Harem.
-Muharem.
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00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,560
Muharem. Muharem.
Yes. Nice to meet you too.
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00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:54,400
What-- what are you here for?
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Fraud, money laundering
and dealing in arms and weapons.
180
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,400
And I started working for EUPM,
which is European police.
181
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,320
Three and a half weeks
before I was supposed to get married,
182
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,080
a drunk driver killed my wife
183
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,000
and turned my whole life around.
184
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,120
I didn't wanna be
in a police force anymore.
185
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,680
I wanted to become a criminal.
I wanted to gamble.
186
00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,400
I wanted to steal weapons, sell weapons.
187
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,640
And that's why I ended up in here.
188
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,520
Is this your first time in prison?
189
00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,800
No, it's not. I served in 2011 also.
190
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,080
[Rowe] How long?
191
00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,840
A year and a half. For carrying a gun.
192
00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,120
It was an automatic Uzi handgun.
193
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,120
Why'd you carry an automatic Uzi?
194
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,920
I really don't have
an explanation for that.
195
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:38,800
[Rowe] Hmm.
196
00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,920
Eldin offers to show me around.
197
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,080
This is the main room
where everybody smokes in.
198
00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:47,800
We play chess. We read the newspaper.
199
00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:49,600
-We get a newspaper every single day.
-Okay.
200
00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:51,680
[Eldin] And the bathroom's right here.
201
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,320
[Rowe] I can smell that.
You're probably immune to the smell.
202
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,360
-[Eldin] This is the shower.
-Okay.
203
00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,440
These are the toilets right here.
204
00:10:58,520 --> 00:10:59,360
[Rowe] Okay.
205
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,600
You can't smell it, but I can.
It's quite a strong smell in here.
206
00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:05,320
[Eldin] It is a really strong smell,
because the hole in the walls
207
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,720
and the water comes down.
We can't do nothing about it.
208
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,720
It's an old building.
It's been here a long time.
209
00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:11,480
Four sinks with water.
210
00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:14,840
-[Rowe] You have hot water and cold water.
-[Eldin] We have hot water every day.
211
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,680
[Rowe] Yeah, and whose responsibility
is it to keep this tidy?
212
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:19,760
[Eldin] Every single day,
there's a different person.
213
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,080
[Rowe] No amount of cleaning
is gonna get this place nice.
214
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,760
It's straight out of the 19th century.
215
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,040
How often do you get
to go outside on exercise?
216
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,880
[Eldin] You get two hours
for walking around.
217
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,960
-Two hours to train, to go to the gym.
-[Rowe] Okay.
218
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:35,120
[Eldin] Once in the morning.
219
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:36,760
-Once in the afternoon.
-[Rowe] Okay.
220
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,280
But surprisingly,
within this section of the prison,
221
00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,480
even violent criminals don't have
their cell doors locked at night.
222
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,200
They can move freely within this area.
223
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,040
That's the only door that's locked.
224
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,160
[Rowe] So, at seven o'clock
when they lock that door,
225
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,520
you guys are just left
to your own devices?
226
00:11:58,600 --> 00:11:59,440
Yes.
227
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,240
That's a pretty relaxed regime, isn't it?
228
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,720
I'm-- I'm not feeling the bang-up here.
I'm not feeling the kind of lockdown.
229
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,760
There's gotta be good trust
between you all.
230
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:10,880
You know what people think.
231
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,880
-They think, "Prisoners, dangerous."
-Right.
232
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,240
"Ruthless, violent."
233
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,880
"How can they be given that much space?
Surely, they're fighting all the time."
234
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:19,600
[Eldin] I'm not saying
that doesn't happen.
235
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:21,560
-People get into a fight.
-[Rowe] Of course.
236
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,160
Last month, I got into a fight,
and I got put to segregation for 15 days.
237
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:26,600
What was that about?
238
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,040
It was stupid.
It was over a remote control and a TV.
239
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,480
And you lost 15 days in segregation.
240
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:35,400
Yes.
241
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,160
[Rowe] Back in the cell,
242
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,960
I'm keen to try
and get on a better footing
243
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,920
with my intimidating cellmate Elvis,
244
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,000
so we sit down to have a chat.
245
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,240
This is not your first time inside.
246
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,160
[in Bosnian] No.
247
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:52,000
Fourth.
248
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,120
-[Rowe in English] Four times?
-[Elvis] Yes.
249
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,320
So how many years in your life
altogether have you spent in prison?
250
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:01,360
Oh, shit.
251
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,800
[in Bosnian] Approximately 13 years.
252
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,960
[in English] As somebody who's
bossed an organized criminal network,
253
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,320
what sort of things
did you lead them to do?
254
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,920
[in Bosnian] Robberies,
grievous bodily harm.
255
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,160
Many things.
256
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,640
If I was asked to set three cars on fire,
257
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,080
then I would send two or three guys
to get it done.
258
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,520
It's a transaction.
259
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,520
If someone bothers you,
you want me to hurt him,
260
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,480
to set his car, house on fire,
261
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,920
simply to destroy him.
262
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,360
[in English] Did you make a lot of money
from the crime?
263
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,040
[Elvis in Bosnian] I had a lot of stuff.
264
00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,600
Money, good cars,
265
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,120
a lot of weapons, a lot of drugs.
266
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,200
A lot of women around me.
267
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:51,360
[in English] Have you shot many people?
268
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,120
[in Bosnian] Many.
269
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,720
-[in English] Many?
-[Elvis] Yes.
270
00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:58,560
[laughs]
271
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:01,440
Why do you find that funny?
272
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,320
[chuckles]
273
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,800
[in Bosnian] It's funny
because it's nothing unusual for me.
274
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:09,480
It doesn't bother me.
275
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,360
[Rowe in English] Do you regret anything
that you've ever done?
276
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:17,920
[Elvis in Bosnian] Am I sorry?
277
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,320
[sighs]
278
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:26,160
I am. One time
a murder happened during a robbery.
279
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,640
That man shouldn't have been killed.
I feel very sorry for that man.
280
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,560
[chattering]
281
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,000
[Rowe in English] When I first went into
this cell, I didn't know what to expect.
282
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,960
But meeting Elvis and my other cellmates
was quite intimidating.
283
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:50,360
He's a former crime boss, and he's
used to controlling, manipulating people.
284
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,040
He just seemed unstable.
285
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,000
There were times when I thought
he was just gonna jump at me,
286
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,000
and I'm thinking,
if he goes for my throat,
287
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,360
I could hit him with my right hand
and hit him.
288
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,200
That's the mentality
of surviving in prison,
289
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,320
when you don't know the characters
that you're dealing with.
290
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:10,360
As I'm discovering,
291
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,920
many of the prisoners here
are veterans of violent mafia-style crime.
292
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,040
I want to find out
if this prison is doing anything
293
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,400
to really change these hardened criminals.
294
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,520
It's my first morning at Zenica Prison.
295
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,720
Elvis left
for his prison job at 5:00 a.m.,
296
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,760
so I'm left in the company
of Eldin and Muharem.
297
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,840
[siren wailing]
298
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:57,400
[in Bosnian] Report.
299
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,120
-[in English] That's the roll call?
-[Eldin] Yes.
300
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,280
[Rowe] At 7:30 each day,
301
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,560
the alarm sounds,
and there's a swift roll call.
302
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,360
[guard speaking Bosnian]
303
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,160
-[Eldin] It's over.
-[Rowe] That's it?
304
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:17,240
[Eldin] Yeah, it's over.
305
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:20,600
[Rowe] It didn't
even look like he counted.
306
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,560
There's certain people that went
to work at five o'clock in the morning.
307
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:25,360
-He's got 'em crossed off.
-Yeah.
308
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,040
So he exactly knows
how many people are inside here
309
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,480
and who's at work
and who's somewhere else.
310
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,560
Are you working? Do you go to work today?
311
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,240
No, I can't go to work.
I already told you.
312
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:36,960
I got into fight two weeks ago.
313
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,480
-[Rowe] Oh, so you're on punishment.
-I'm on punishment. I'm C group.
314
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,360
Oh, right.
So, you're in the lower category.
315
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,600
I have to wait four months
until I can start working
316
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,400
or I can start doing
anything positive again.
317
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:50,840
-[Rowe] Really? Four month--
-Yes.
318
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,400
-[Rowe] That's your sentence, four months.
-That's my punishment.
319
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,640
-[Rowe] Loss of privilege for fighting.
-Yes, and 15 days that I did in solitary.
320
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,720
[Rowe] I know from bitter experience
321
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,520
that 15 days in solitary is tough.
322
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,280
It seems that if you break the rules here,
323
00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:12,320
the punishment is immediate and severe.
324
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:21,240
But as a new prisoner, my slate's clean,
and I have full privileges.
325
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,840
-So I'm able to work.
-[officer speaks Bosnian]
326
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,240
-In here?
-[officer] Yes.
327
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,080
[Rowe] I'm reporting
to the kitchen for duty.
328
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,600
-You want me to do that?
-[cook] Like this from all sides.
329
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,560
-Okay. Oh, you speak English as well?
-Yes.
330
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:34,920
[Rowe] All right, okay.
331
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,800
-Did you make this?
-[cook] Yes, yes.
332
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,000
Like this, see?
333
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:41,960
That will be faster.
334
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:43,320
[Rowe] Oh, right, okay.
335
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,520
Okay. 'Cause we'll get blamed…
336
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,000
I'm not too pleased
to spot my cellmate Elvis,
337
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,720
the former crime boss.
338
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,600
[Elvis in Bosnian] You are not doing
it right. You should do it like this.
339
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,880
[Rowe in English] He told me the other
way. You're telling me to do it that way.
340
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:02,360
[Elvis in Bosnian] Like this.
341
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,120
[in English] Uh, make your mind up, guys.
342
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,480
Elvis is already seven years
into a 20-year sentence.
343
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,520
Despite his aura of menace,
344
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,120
he does at least seem
to have become a hard worker here,
345
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,320
and today, he's also a bit more friendly.
346
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,960
[in Bosnian] Let's empty these.
Bring that one.
347
00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:30,160
[Rowe in English]
I'll take the lightest one.
348
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,320
[in Bosnian] Bring the other one too.
349
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,840
[in English] Here I was thinking
I was doing the light work,
350
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,040
and now you're making me
do the heavy work.
351
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:41,960
Damn, it's heavy.
352
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,400
So, you've been down here
since five o'clock this morning?
353
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,680
[in Bosnian] Yes,
I'm here from five to 12.
354
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,880
[Rowe in English]
Do you get paid for working here?
355
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:52,640
-[Elvis] Yes.
-[Rowe] Oh.
356
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,560
[Elvis in Bosnian]
I get 100 euros monthly.
357
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,880
This salary is enough
for a prisoner to live decently in here.
358
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,960
We can buy, uh, fruits,
359
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,320
uh, toothpaste,
and all the other things we need.
360
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,640
[Rowe in English]
Why do you like to come here and work?
361
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,720
[Elvis in Bosnian]
I want to learn how to become a chef.
362
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:12,800
[Rowe in English] Ah, why?
363
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,680
[in Bosnian] Well, maybe I could
become a chef when I get out.
364
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,760
[in English] That's quite a big change
from your lifestyle.
365
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,000
[Elvis in Bosnian]
Yes, I'll try that. If it works, it works.
366
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,400
[Rowe in English] I thought I'd find you
here with your feet up
367
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,200
telling somebody else what to do,
368
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,840
but you've surprised me that you are
putting in a good shift here, Elvis.
369
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,240
[in Bosnian] I think differently now
than how I used to think.
370
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,880
I have a healthier mind and thinking.
371
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,760
I got into the work habit here,
since I never had an honest job before.
372
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:54,080
I've changed a lot.
I'm not the same person anymore.
373
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,960
[in English] Not only have I learned
a lot about how it works down here,
374
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,720
but I think
I also learned a lot about Elvis.
375
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,280
It's fascinating.
376
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,480
He believes doing this has changed
his personality, his character.
377
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,760
But there is another side to Elvis,
378
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:20,040
this menacing aura
that I feel in his presence.
379
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:21,880
But he is working hard.
380
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,760
It's inspiring him.
And for me, that's a positive.
381
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,640
My shift in the kitchen is done.
382
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:35,000
I'm told that prisoners like me,
whose behavior record is on track,
383
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,600
get to enjoy time out in the open air.
384
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,720
Every day,
we get a little bit of exercise,
385
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,400
and that's where I'm going now.
386
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,560
We've got basketball court,
football pitch.
387
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,520
They've got a caged weights room
388
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,360
with what looks like
some real old rusty weights.
389
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,160
It's all a bit old,
390
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,720
but it's a great deal better than nothing.
391
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,280
What I am impressed by is that there
is an incentive for prisoners to behave,
392
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,040
whether it's working in the kitchen
or-- or being able to go to the gym.
393
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,400
Well, it looks to me
like they're trying to do something
394
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,400
that offers some change
in the individuals that end up in here.
395
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,800
It's my third day
at Zenica Prison, Bosnia.
396
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,200
I'd like to find my more welcoming
cellmate Eldin,
397
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,080
but he's nowhere to be seen.
398
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,400
[officer in Bosnian]
Let's go around. Come on.
399
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,360
[Rowe in English] One of the guards
informs me where I'll be able to find him.
400
00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,920
A few days after meeting Eldin,
401
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,440
he's gone and got himself
in trouble again.
402
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,920
Strikes me as that kind of character.
403
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,240
He's been placed in isolation.
404
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,160
It seems you get given plenty
of freedom here if you behave,
405
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,880
but now I'm going to see
what happens if you don't.
406
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:18,840
[Rowe] How you doing?
407
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,080
What happened, man?
How come you've ended up in here?
408
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,280
[Eldin] The CO told me
to go back to my room,
409
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,280
and I disobeyed a direct order
410
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:29,400
and told him
that I'm not going back to my room.
411
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,520
I got into an argument with him,
412
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,120
so he put the cuffs on me
and brought me to segregation.
413
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,720
I have a big mouth. I like to talk a lot.
414
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,520
My mouth is faster than my thought.
415
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,320
This is the 14th time
I've been in segregation in six years.
416
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,800
[Rowe] Eldin's mouth has landed him
another 15 days on his own.
417
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,600
And this is quite a stark cell, isn't it?
418
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,920
I mean, you've got a table and a chair,
a bit of slab concrete with a mattress on.
419
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,200
[Eldin] This is all I have.
I got two pillows.
420
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,840
I got two blankets and a mattress.
421
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,600
No cigarettes. Nothing. You can eat.
422
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,120
No newspaper. There's nothing you can do.
423
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,480
Twenty-three hours, you're inside of here,
424
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,840
and then one hour,
you get to go walk outside.
425
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,320
Given that you've been here 14 times,
it's obviously not working.
426
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,520
It's not working on you.
427
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,640
It pretty much makes you go insane.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
428
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,040
It makes me worse. It makes me more angry.
429
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:27,600
It gets me pissed off,
and I'm angry at everybody
430
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:28,760
when I get out of here,
431
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,200
and then I continue to do stupid things
to end up here in segregation.
432
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,000
You can lock me up in a room
and throw the key away,
433
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,360
and I'll be good for maybe 15,
20 days a month,
434
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,760
and then something
in my head clicks over back again,
435
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,200
and I'm back again
to behaving the way that I was before.
436
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:50,920
Would-- would you say that your behavior
is borne out of a mental health issue?
437
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,160
I've been through the war.
438
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,640
I was inside of a house
as a nine-year-old kid
439
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,800
when people came with automatic weapons,
took my dad to a concentration camp,
440
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,560
took me to a concentration camp.
441
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,160
It had a lot of effect
on my childhood and everything.
442
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,360
I don't wanna use that as an excuse.
443
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,120
I can't keep on doing stuff wrong.
I keep on-- keep on blaming it on that.
444
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,600
People had worse things happen to them.
445
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,400
Somebody's whole family got killed
inside a war.
446
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,360
I was just trying to get you
to understand what made me flip…
447
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:20,320
I understand.
448
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,440
…from a positive person
to a negative person.
449
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:23,360
I understand.
450
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,160
Well, I hope this is the start
of you seeing things differently.
451
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,400
-[Eldin] No problem.
-You know?
452
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,480
-[Eldin] Have a good day.
-You too. Take care.
453
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:32,760
[Eldin] Yeah, I will.
454
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,800
[Rowe] For someone who's been through
as much trauma as Eldin,
455
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,320
I'm not sure
solitary confinement is the answer.
456
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,480
I can't stress enough how damaging
that must be for individuals
457
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:53,000
when they spend days and days and days
in that space on their own.
458
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,640
I spent many, many, many months myself
in isolation like that.
459
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,560
It doesn't work to change an individual.
460
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,960
It sometimes
makes you angrier and more frustrated.
461
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,040
That's what he says he goes through.
462
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:08,280
[Eldin sighs]
463
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,320
[Rowe] I want to know how the guards
justify the tough side of this regime.
464
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,840
Boris Soko has worked here for 15 years.
465
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,480
I've been to a more relaxed environment.
466
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,000
I've been to the very confined space
where they're being punished.
467
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,640
What-- what does that serve?
What's the purpose?
468
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,080
[in Bosnian] Trust me,
the purpose of this arrangement,
469
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:56,640
the areas that we isolate prisoners
who constantly disobey
470
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:03,640
the rules and regulations,
471
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,480
is that while in there, the prisoners
can learn that only their own behavior,
472
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:09,720
good behavior,
473
00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:13,280
will result in improvements and rewards.
474
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,200
They have to learn
and understand this lesson on their own,
475
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,320
during their time in here.
476
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,480
[Rowe] Have things changed significantly
in the time that you became a guard?
477
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,560
[in Bosnian] Uh,
I can say that for the prisoners,
478
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,600
it is much easier now
to serve their sentences.
479
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:38,280
Whereas it is harder
for us as guards to work.
480
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,880
It's a collective effort
to help the prisoners
481
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:49,200
who have committed crimes on the outside
482
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,600
to rehabilitate during their time here
483
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:58,160
and become ordinary law-abiding citizens
who will obey society's rules.
484
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,160
[Rowe in English] Maybe you can justify
a very tough carrot-and-stick approach
485
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,320
if it's really changing prisoners
for the better.
486
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,880
But the sort of hardened mafia
and repeat offenders they have here
487
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,120
aren't easy to reform.
488
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:30,040
At mealtime the next day,
I find my cellmate, gang boss Elvis.
489
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,400
Now that we're on better terms,
I'm joining him for lunch.
490
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,280
Does everybody get the same,
or can they pick what they want?
491
00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:42,920
[in Bosnian] You can choose.
492
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,320
[in English] These metal trays
don't exist in very many places anymore.
493
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,040
They're such a dangerous weapon,
but they have such--
494
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:53,040
such trust amongst the prisoners here
495
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:55,640
that they're still prepared
to issue one of these trays.
496
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,800
I haven't seen one of these
since my own time in prison.
497
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,680
I wanna know what turned Elvis
into a gangster in the first place.
498
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,680
Ah! This is…?
499
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,440
-[Elvis] Brother.
-[Rowe] Oh, your brother.
500
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,040
-[Elvis] Yes.
-[Rowe] Hello.
501
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:13,760
-Hello.
-[Rowe] Nice to meet you.
502
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,600
-[chuckles]
-My name is Sami.
503
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:16,760
-[Rowe] Sami.
-[Sami] Mm-hmm.
504
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:22,680
[Rowe] Elvis and his elder brother Sami
were both involved in organized crime.
505
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,920
I'm trying to look at the resemblance.
506
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,880
[splutters] But he's
the better looking one, right?
507
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:29,800
[Elvis chattering]
508
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,520
[Rowe] They're both serving long sentences
for armed robbery and murder.
509
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,720
So, tell me a little bit
about where you come from then.
510
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,440
What was your childhood like?
511
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,160
[Sami in Bosnian]
We had a bad, poor childhood.
512
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:44,560
[Elvis] Poor childhood.
513
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,520
Our dad is a member of the army
of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
514
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:50,920
and he was left disabled.
515
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,840
[in English] What do you say
was the reason
516
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,440
behind your becoming
involved in criminality?
517
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,520
[in Bosnian] The poverty, mostly.
518
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,440
Because the country was at war.
519
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:07,800
Our dad couldn't afford all the things
that a young boy or teenager needs.
520
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,120
So, we decided to go it alone
and chose this path.
521
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,760
We lost our way, and to this day,
there are consequences we regret.
522
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,280
[Elvis] Going to eat those sausages?
523
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,680
-[in English] No, no, no.
-Yes.
524
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,040
[Rowe] I thought you were looking at me
in a very nice way,
525
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,600
but you were just after my food.
526
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,960
[Elvis in Bosnian] Do you drink coffee?
527
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,840
-[in English] Coffee? Yeah.
-[Elvis] Yes.
528
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:33,800
Okay, we'll go.
529
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,440
[in Bosnian] Let's go have a coffee.
530
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:37,960
[Rowe in English] Hot.
531
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,480
[in Bosnian] You can't stop
just anywhere to drink coffee.
532
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,520
Normally everybody has his spot
for drinking coffee, for eating, etcetera.
533
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,680
[in English] When you say spots, you mean
this is your corner to have coffee?
534
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:49,640
Yes.
535
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,440
[in Bosnian] We drink coffee here.
536
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:53,480
[Rowe in English] You were saying
537
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,200
that you-- you started
getting involved in organized crime.
538
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,200
Help me understand what-- what that means.
539
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,920
[in Bosnian] After the war,
many things were available,
540
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,080
such as weapons, just like today.
541
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,120
Today you can also find weapons,
all kinds of weapons as a bargain,
542
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,440
as a present.
543
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,640
-We each formed criminal groups.
-Yes.
544
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,640
On his side and my side.
545
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,240
We scared them so they would work for us.
546
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,240
Day after day, "I want this. I want that."
547
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,040
And day by day, you are in it
deeper and deeper and deeper.
548
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,240
It was never enough.
Here, it's called greed.
549
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,640
[Rowe in English] And how much
has prison changed you, Sami?
550
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,840
[in Bosnian] Really a lot.
I used to act impulsively,
551
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,800
but I've started thinking differently now,
that actions have consequences.
552
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,080
Before, I loved to fight.
It was in my blood.
553
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,240
Now I know that each fight
means a punishment.
554
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,960
So now I think about things
before I do anything.
555
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,280
[Rowe in English]
Two very interesting, open characters.
556
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,840
Their life, to some extent, is a legacy
of the war that took place here,
557
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,160
because they were able to access weapons,
558
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,000
and then they used those weapons
to commit robberies.
559
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,360
The time that they've been in prison
has been a time of reflection,
560
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,520
and they now say that they are--
561
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,880
they are not the men
that people used to fear.
562
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,320
The ultimate reward
for good behavior at Zenica
563
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,120
is to be transferred
to a part of the prison
564
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,640
that isn't much like a prison at all,
565
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,000
and that's where I'm heading this morning.
566
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,040
Some people would describe it
as-- as open conditions.
567
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,360
You can see cars, you know, pedestrians
568
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,840
and people's residential homes
from-- from this part of the prison.
569
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,800
There is still a connection
with the outside world.
570
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,640
You get to live under this open regime
if you followed the rules
571
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,040
and you're soon to be released.
572
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,440
That makes it the perfect place
573
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,240
to judge whether the prison
really is changing prisoners for good.
574
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,320
-Hey.
-[man speaks Bosnian]
575
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,280
Hello.
576
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,880
Oh, hello.
577
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,560
Hello. I'm Raphael.
578
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,240
-And your name is?
-[man] Mirza.
579
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,480
Mirza. So, this is the gymnasium?
580
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,480
Anyone can use this gymnasium?
581
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,720
[Mirza in Bosnian]
All of us here can use the gym.
582
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,320
[Rowe in English] Oh. Come.
583
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,680
[in Bosnian] You and I?
584
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,280
If you lose,
you'll have to pay for the coffee.
585
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,720
[Rowe in English] Mirza was a member
of a mafia-type crime organization
586
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,160
and was convicted of a string of offenses,
587
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,960
but he's soon due for release
back onto the streets.
588
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,360
This is good. This is nice and relaxing.
589
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,520
[in Bosnian] Everybody's
having a nice time here.
590
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,240
Here it is clean and tidy.
Those guys are all good guys here.
591
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,080
They are into sports.
They train, work and have their families.
592
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,880
It's like a paradise in here.
593
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,080
[in English] Oh.
How do you earn your place here?
594
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,720
[in Bosnian] By behaving nicely.
By working.
595
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,120
This is the best place, but you have
to have a brain to end up here.
596
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,240
In prison, you have to fight.
597
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,360
But over time, a man improves
and realizes it is better to be here
598
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,360
than over there in solitary,
and then he calms down.
599
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:35,680
[chattering]
600
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,360
[in English] If you finish your workout,
can I see where you sleep?
601
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,200
-Where your cell is?
-Okay, no problem.
602
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,160
[Rowe] Show me.
603
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,600
[in Bosnian] Let me get changed.
604
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,320
[in English, chuckles] He's a big guy.
605
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,320
But I-I don't feel intimidated.
He-- he seems quite friendly.
606
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:55,120
Okay.
607
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,840
-[Mirza in Bosnian] Come this way.
-[Rowe] Oh.
608
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,960
How is it going? My new roommate is here.
609
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,080
[Rowe in English]
Mm-mm. It's a nice view, right?
610
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,000
[Mirza] Yeah.
611
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,480
[Rowe] Okay. Thank you.
612
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,400
[Mirza] VIP! VIP!
613
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:16,880
[Rowe] VIP! V-I-P.
614
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:17,800
[Mirza] Here.
615
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,360
Ah, very, very interesting.
616
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,120
So, there's two of you?
One, two people sleep in this room?
617
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,240
[in Bosnian] I had a roommate with me
618
00:34:31,240 --> 00:34:35,080
until he made one mistake,
so he was kicked out from here.
619
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,640
[Rowe in English] Prisoners are
still closely monitored in this wing
620
00:34:39,720 --> 00:34:43,240
and mustn't put a foot wrong
if they want to stay here.
621
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,320
Mirza has been careful
to follow the letter of the law,
622
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,320
but has he changed for real?
623
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,160
Tell me a little bit about the privileges.
624
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,440
[in Bosnian] Well, you get, for example,
625
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:02,440
for one month, you can get five days out
626
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,440
to see if you are ready for them
to let you out.
627
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,360
That is a big privilege.
628
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:14,640
After these five days, I do my best
to not make any dumb moves.
629
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,880
[in English] And tell me
about the crime that you're in prison for.
630
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,200
-Was you involved in drugs, robberies?
-No, drug, no.
631
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,440
[in Bosnian] Never with drugs.
632
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,240
[spits] No drugs.
633
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,520
[Rowe in English] No drugs.
So racketeering.
634
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,120
[in English] Some racketeering.
635
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,520
You protect people so no one touches them.
636
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,000
When they reject, they do not want,
and then you do whatever you can
637
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,440
to make him take the offer.
638
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,120
Many of these deeds,
639
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,560
some I've been sentenced for.
Some I have not.
640
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,560
So, I am who I am.
641
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,200
But can I tell you
what helped me the most in prison?
642
00:35:58,640 --> 00:35:59,840
This is what can help.
643
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:01,160
[Rowe in English] The Koran.
644
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,680
[in Bosnian] Dear Allah, Koran, Islam.
645
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,600
Now, when I get out, I'm going to Europe
646
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,320
because Bosnia is poor.
647
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,400
There is no money here.
648
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,000
Europe is full of money,
so there will be more money for me.
649
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,200
[in English] And what will you do
to make that money?
650
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,160
[in Bosnian] Well, the same way as before.
651
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,160
That's how life is. That's how I choose
to do it and how I will continue.
652
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,440
I will never change.
653
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,680
[in English] Why--
why would you admit that to me?
654
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,600
[in Bosnian] Well, because I'm honest.
I'm not like all other cowards.
655
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,160
I am a person from the streets.
656
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:43,560
Prison did not change me.
It can only make me worse.
657
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,360
[Rowe in English] He was a bit
of a roller coaster of a character.
658
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,320
He says that when he goes out,
he's going back to the same lifestyle.
659
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,600
I mean, you can give someone
all the rehabilitation programs you want.
660
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,560
Until they're ready to change,
they're not gonna change.
661
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,440
It's my last day at Zenica Prison.
662
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,600
[chattering]
663
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,480
[Rowe] There are many killers here,
but before I leave,
664
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,760
I've been invited to meet perhaps
their most notorious prisoner.
665
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,680
I'm being led to one of the more
restricted parts of the prison,
666
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,960
where prisoners who, um…
667
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,280
Prisoners are kept
for either their own protection
668
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,040
or for the protection of other prisoners.
669
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,120
The man I'm about to meet
670
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,120
is deemed very dangerous,
671
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,440
and I'm told
he's committed some horrific crimes,
672
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,200
so I'm feeling a little bit apprehensive.
673
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:12,760
Hello.
674
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:15,440
Jasminko?
675
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:16,360
[in Bosnian] Yes.
676
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,440
[in English] Yeah? Raphael.
677
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:19,760
[in Bosnian] Nice to meet you.
678
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,240
[Rowe in English] Jasminko Jašarević
was given one of the longest sentences
679
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,680
ever handed out by a Bosnian court.
680
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:33,600
You don't get sentenced to life in Bosnia,
but he was given 42 years.
681
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,240
So far, he's served 16.
682
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,000
What crimes did you commit?
683
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,000
[Jasminko Jašarević in Bosnian] Murders.
684
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,480
One murder took place in the year 2000.
685
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:49,800
And the other two,
686
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,320
the second took place in 2003
and the third in 2004.
687
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:58,880
[in English] How many people
have you killed?
688
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,280
[in Bosnian] Four.
689
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,480
Two were killed for money.
690
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,400
That is all I can say.
691
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:15,560
[Rowe in English] Among his crimes was
the brutal murder of a 71-year-old woman,
692
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,720
killed in her home for jewelry and cash.
693
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:24,600
Jašarević's crimes took place
years after the Bosnian War.
694
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,880
He even joined
the international peacekeeping forces
695
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,720
that were here at the time.
696
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:36,000
But instead of peacekeeping,
he killed again and again for money.
697
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,520
Was the-- the murder
you're talking about in 2000
698
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,840
linked to your role as a peacekeeper?
699
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,040
[in Bosnian] This was a man who was…
700
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:50,960
a war reporter during the war.
701
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:57,240
I was hired by two people
to obtain some footage
702
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:02,920
and seize it from the person
I ended up killing.
703
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,440
[in English] Share with me
who-- who Jasminko is,
704
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,160
as opposed to the convicted criminal.
705
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,920
[in Bosnian] I was an official.
706
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,000
Then I chose a criminal path.
That was my mistake.
707
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,920
I'm not dangerous. I'm not violent.
708
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,760
I am, in a way, a killer,
but we have hearts too.
709
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,320
I am made of flesh and blood,
just like you.
710
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,280
[in English] The families of the people
that-- that you killed,
711
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,640
the people that loved them,
712
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,480
how do people understand that?
713
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,280
[Jašarević in Bosnian] I did do it.
714
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,120
I know that no one and nothing
can compensate
715
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,480
for the family member
that has been killed.
716
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,200
Even if they imposed
a death penalty on me,
717
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,520
that wouldn't bring back
the people I killed.
718
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,640
[in English] You're doing
a very long prison sentence.
719
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:04,400
Do you think
you will ever be released from prison?
720
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:06,880
[in Bosnian] Let's say that
721
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:13,160
in two or three years,
it'll be halfway through my sentence.
722
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,600
I hope I'll be in good health
723
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,440
and that I stay in my right mind
724
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:24,680
when my freedom comes.
725
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,200
[Rowe in English]
A lot of the individuals that I've met,
726
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,520
you can put into context
what they've done.
727
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,720
It might be because of the war.
It might be because of poverty.
728
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,160
But for a man who kills four people,
you can't put that into context.
729
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,840
Maybe he's the kind of person
that should never be released.
730
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,040
Before I leave Zenica Prison,
731
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,680
I want to ask the prison governor,
Redžo Kahrić,
732
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:06,640
how much he thinks his regime,
part relaxed, part extremely tough,
733
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:09,600
is really changing criminals
for the better.
734
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,720
I'm meeting him
in a brand-new section of the prison,
735
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,040
where some of these prisoners
will soon be moving.
736
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:22,240
[in Bosnian] My only goal is
to develop trust with prisoners,
737
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:28,160
and the main role of the prison,
the goal we've achieved,
738
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:32,880
is to transform the prisoners' lives.
739
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,240
When you give somebody trust, believe me,
740
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:43,320
the majority of the prisoners
somehow keep their word better
741
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,120
than most people on the outside,
ordinary citizens.
742
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:52,120
As for the ones who want to create
problems and don't respect the rules,
743
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,760
if they don't want to help themselves,
then the management can't help them.
744
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,040
[in English] How successful
is the prison at reducing re-offending?
745
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,920
In other words, how many prisoners go out
and end up coming back into prison?
746
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:10,680
[in Bosnian] What I have observed
is that the majority of prisoners
747
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:12,800
who get out on parole
748
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:19,840
are really ashamed to return to prison.
749
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:25,440
To become honest men
and to forget their bad deeds.
750
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,200
That is really hard,
but we have more and more prisoners
751
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:36,520
who are accepting that way of thinking
and are moving in a positive direction.
752
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,600
[Rowe in English]
When I leave Zenica Prison,
753
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,240
Eldin is still in solitary confinement.
754
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,000
I hope he can somehow break free
755
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,640
from the destructive
cycle of behavior he's in.
756
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,760
Elvis and his brother Sami
have many more years inside
757
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,160
before they can put the changes
they say they've made to the test.
758
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,120
Behind these walls, I've met some
of Bosnia's most dangerous criminals.
759
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,120
Trying to motivate them
to change their way is not easy,
760
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,640
but I've no doubt that Zenica Prison
761
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:20,360
is doing the best they can
to make a difference.
762
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,320
But given the complex challenges
that this country still faces,
763
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,680
there's only so much they can do.
764
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,200
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