1 00:00:12,721 --> 00:00:15,641 Some of these places I haven't been in 20 years. 2 00:00:16,266 --> 00:00:17,518 Just see it in my memory. 3 00:00:18,060 --> 00:00:19,645 But I don't know how it is. 4 00:00:20,604 --> 00:00:22,022 I'm a little curious myself. 5 00:00:24,107 --> 00:00:25,067 Let's start off... 6 00:00:25,609 --> 00:00:27,694 Would you like to see the dental office? 7 00:00:31,532 --> 00:00:34,451 Dentistry is a very tough job. A very tough job. 8 00:00:36,370 --> 00:00:38,664 Well, I got the corner office here, guys. 9 00:00:39,248 --> 00:00:40,249 That is my office. 10 00:00:41,542 --> 00:00:45,128 Made a nice living out of it, wound up with three dental offices. 11 00:00:46,630 --> 00:00:49,299 Uh, never bought a practice, I started from scratch. 12 00:00:49,383 --> 00:00:50,968 Wound up with 12,000 patients. 13 00:00:52,344 --> 00:00:53,178 Uh... 14 00:00:53,554 --> 00:00:55,013 Yeah, it almost killed me. 15 00:00:59,184 --> 00:01:02,688 I was a practicing dentist with a drug problem. 16 00:01:03,814 --> 00:01:06,233 Great dentist with a drug problem. 17 00:01:09,027 --> 00:01:13,323 Getting sober took about nine years. 18 00:01:15,325 --> 00:01:18,203 And do I blame, uh, Maskell? 19 00:01:18,662 --> 00:01:20,455 Yes, I do. Do I blame myself? 20 00:01:20,539 --> 00:01:21,498 Yes, I do. 21 00:01:28,922 --> 00:01:31,800 I went to St. Clement's. I believe I started in 1958... 22 00:01:32,426 --> 00:01:33,760 uh, in first grade. 23 00:01:36,555 --> 00:01:39,308 The summer between my seventh and eighth grade... 24 00:01:45,355 --> 00:01:46,315 I was an altar boy. 25 00:01:50,777 --> 00:01:53,488 Masses back in those days, in the summer, went six o'clock, 26 00:01:53,572 --> 00:01:56,408 seven o'clock, and eight o'clock, Monday through Friday. 27 00:01:58,368 --> 00:02:02,414 They had a lot of Masses because the parish was a thriving parish. 28 00:02:03,624 --> 00:02:06,627 So, I would sit, say, a six o'clock Mass or a seven o'clock Mass, 29 00:02:06,710 --> 00:02:09,296 and I'd have to... I'd ride my bicycle down. 30 00:02:12,507 --> 00:02:15,010 That's where I met Father Maskell for the first time. 31 00:02:16,595 --> 00:02:21,183 Really got to... Started to know the fellow. 32 00:02:24,770 --> 00:02:29,608 By November of my eighth grade, he was driving me home. 33 00:02:31,401 --> 00:02:33,362 He'd say, "Put the bike in the trunk. 34 00:02:33,445 --> 00:02:36,114 I'm gonna drive you home." And we'd stop for a snowball. 35 00:02:39,284 --> 00:02:42,412 I was the golden boy, I could do no wrong. 36 00:02:45,749 --> 00:02:49,586 This is St. Clement's Church over here. Father Maskell was associate pastor. 37 00:02:50,712 --> 00:02:52,172 Look, this was the classroom. 38 00:02:53,507 --> 00:02:56,093 Here was a classroom for the seventh and eighth grade. 39 00:03:00,055 --> 00:03:02,724 Father Maskell would come into my classroom... 40 00:03:03,975 --> 00:03:07,521 and ask to talk to me, and he'd want to see me up at the rectory. 41 00:03:08,772 --> 00:03:09,773 We're running up here. 42 00:03:10,273 --> 00:03:12,943 This is the... The old rectory. 43 00:03:14,569 --> 00:03:16,780 And at first, it might have been once a week... 44 00:03:17,447 --> 00:03:20,742 then it got to be where it was like two, three, uh, times a week. 45 00:03:21,243 --> 00:03:26,123 And a lot of times I... From lunch until the day ended, 46 00:03:26,873 --> 00:03:30,127 which I think was like 2:30, I wouldn't be back in class. 47 00:03:30,710 --> 00:03:32,838 I'd be up at the rectory with Father Maskell. 48 00:03:38,260 --> 00:03:40,137 Uh-uh. Is that it right there? 49 00:03:42,973 --> 00:03:44,850 Unbelievable. It's hard to recognize it. 50 00:03:49,688 --> 00:03:50,522 It's changed. 51 00:03:52,065 --> 00:03:54,401 Didn't change much. If I had to bet the farm on it, 52 00:03:54,484 --> 00:03:57,320 I'd say that was his office right there, because I dashed up. 53 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,951 Is that where the abuse happened? Yes, yes, yes. 54 00:04:07,914 --> 00:04:10,751 Father Maskell taught me how to drink and forget problems. 55 00:04:11,626 --> 00:04:14,337 Father Maskell taught me how to, uh, take a drug 56 00:04:14,755 --> 00:04:17,924 if, uh, I wanted to forget about what was happening around me. 57 00:04:20,969 --> 00:04:24,765 The first wine I drank was out of a chalice. 58 00:04:25,932 --> 00:04:28,685 Okay. And he said, "I have wine that's left over from Mass, 59 00:04:28,769 --> 00:04:30,479 can you take care of it for me?" 60 00:04:33,940 --> 00:04:35,692 Because, you know, I was altar boy. 61 00:04:36,109 --> 00:04:38,445 That's where it... That's how it all started. 62 00:04:39,946 --> 00:04:41,281 I knew the young Maskell. 63 00:04:42,616 --> 00:04:46,578 And as he got older, he got meaner, dirtier, and more evil. 64 00:04:48,497 --> 00:04:52,959 So, if we get anything out of this conversation today, okay... 65 00:04:54,753 --> 00:04:56,755 if the Catholic Church... 66 00:04:58,006 --> 00:05:01,593 would have dealt with this properly back in '67, 67 00:05:02,177 --> 00:05:03,512 and they knew about it... 68 00:05:04,763 --> 00:05:06,515 there would have been no murder. 69 00:05:10,060 --> 00:05:11,228 We... We wouldn't be here. 70 00:06:24,050 --> 00:06:25,135 There you are. 71 00:06:25,802 --> 00:06:28,054 There's a Cesnik if I ever met one. Gerry. 72 00:06:28,138 --> 00:06:29,347 Nice to see you. 73 00:06:29,764 --> 00:06:30,932 How are you? Fine. 74 00:06:31,766 --> 00:06:32,809 I know. I am now. 75 00:06:33,351 --> 00:06:34,728 Thank you for coming. 76 00:06:34,978 --> 00:06:37,731 It just makes me wanna cry, the two of you getting together. 77 00:06:37,814 --> 00:06:40,442 This just makes me wanna cry. 78 00:06:40,525 --> 00:06:42,110 We've been talking about the ring. 79 00:06:42,193 --> 00:06:44,446 I'm wondering if... Do you have it with...? I do. 80 00:06:44,529 --> 00:06:46,573 Yeah. The ring that I gave Cathy. 81 00:06:48,074 --> 00:06:49,910 And I told them I could identify it. 82 00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:00,795 That's it. 83 00:07:01,212 --> 00:07:04,799 I have to tell you that that ring was on Cathy the day she died. 84 00:07:05,634 --> 00:07:07,802 The inside is engraved in Greek. 85 00:07:14,851 --> 00:07:18,229 Agape is the unconditional love, 86 00:07:18,313 --> 00:07:20,482 the characteristic supposedly of Christians. 87 00:07:21,358 --> 00:07:22,859 That's what the ring says. 88 00:07:23,485 --> 00:07:26,821 Learning all this about Cathy, I didn't know any of this. 89 00:07:26,905 --> 00:07:30,200 I started going through my mother's things and I found all this. 90 00:07:30,784 --> 00:07:31,910 Somebody murdered her. 91 00:07:32,702 --> 00:07:34,371 They need to investigate this. 92 00:07:34,454 --> 00:07:36,665 My visit to the police was not... 93 00:07:36,915 --> 00:07:38,667 Did not bring me any closure. 94 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,127 It opened up more questions to me. 95 00:07:44,798 --> 00:07:48,718 It was August 1969, she came home to Pittsburgh. 96 00:07:52,055 --> 00:07:55,934 She wanted to explain why she was leaving Keough 97 00:07:56,017 --> 00:07:59,270 to those that she cared about and those who cared about her. 98 00:08:02,190 --> 00:08:05,235 When Cathy came home, it was always so happy, 99 00:08:05,318 --> 00:08:08,530 and we would stay up all night laughing and talking, 100 00:08:09,572 --> 00:08:12,325 but she wasn't her happy-go-lucky self. 101 00:08:13,576 --> 00:08:15,203 She definitely was sad. 102 00:08:15,996 --> 00:08:17,789 And at the time, I... 103 00:08:17,872 --> 00:08:22,085 I attributed some of this to the changes that were going on in her life. 104 00:08:27,757 --> 00:08:32,053 Turns out, in the September before she died, she came to see me. 105 00:08:33,138 --> 00:08:37,267 Because by then she found out that they were declining the experiment, 106 00:08:37,976 --> 00:08:39,978 and that the order put her in... 107 00:08:40,395 --> 00:08:43,273 Well, you either go back into the convent, or you leave. 108 00:08:43,773 --> 00:08:46,109 And I did know that she had to give an answer by... 109 00:08:46,943 --> 00:08:48,153 By December 31st. 110 00:08:48,236 --> 00:08:52,824 So, at the time she died, she had about six or seven more weeks 111 00:08:53,408 --> 00:08:56,202 in which to answer the ultimatum that she was given. 112 00:08:57,162 --> 00:09:00,498 She said there's so much going on in my mind now. 113 00:09:01,249 --> 00:09:02,917 I think the experiment... 114 00:09:04,461 --> 00:09:05,336 was here. 115 00:09:05,670 --> 00:09:07,756 Mm-hm. I think Gerry was here. 116 00:09:08,214 --> 00:09:10,383 And I think the abuse was here. 117 00:09:10,467 --> 00:09:12,052 Yeah. Yeah. 118 00:09:13,261 --> 00:09:16,139 She had been in the convent for so long 119 00:09:16,389 --> 00:09:19,726 that my parents were concerned, my dad especially, 120 00:09:20,310 --> 00:09:24,272 that she was gonna struggle with living out in the world, you know. 121 00:09:25,815 --> 00:09:28,735 My dad said, "You don't pay bills. 122 00:09:28,902 --> 00:09:31,738 You don't get a paycheck in the convent. 123 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,784 The world is a dangerous place and you don't understand that." 124 00:09:36,659 --> 00:09:39,913 And she said, "How do you know my world's not a dangerous place? 125 00:09:42,749 --> 00:09:45,752 How do you know there's not danger in what I'm doing now?" 126 00:09:47,962 --> 00:09:50,924 I questioned it for a time frame, and I kept thinking 127 00:09:51,007 --> 00:09:54,803 if she told me about the experiment, she would've told me about the abuse, 128 00:09:55,470 --> 00:09:59,933 but, um, the more I think about it now, she would have never told me. 129 00:10:01,726 --> 00:10:03,561 She was very protective of me, 130 00:10:03,978 --> 00:10:07,524 being her younger sister, still being in college. 131 00:10:10,318 --> 00:10:13,488 And I can imagine that heavy burden on her, 132 00:10:14,322 --> 00:10:17,617 'cause Cathy never said she was gonna do something she didn't do. 133 00:10:18,535 --> 00:10:21,162 If she told them she was gonna make it stop, she... 134 00:10:21,246 --> 00:10:24,165 If that portion of all of this is accurate... 135 00:10:25,416 --> 00:10:28,336 all of these girls can't all be telling a lie. 136 00:10:30,088 --> 00:10:33,925 Cathy would have been working to make it stop, no doubt in my mind. 137 00:10:37,303 --> 00:10:40,056 Still... It's still a great puzzle to me. Yes. 138 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:43,434 I mean, neither of us knew anything about this abuse stuff. 139 00:10:43,518 --> 00:10:45,562 This is the puzzle. As part of the context. 140 00:10:45,645 --> 00:10:47,105 And Russell... Until 1994. 141 00:10:47,605 --> 00:10:49,399 And what did Russell know? Russell. 142 00:10:55,989 --> 00:11:00,618 After Cathy died, Russ just wanted to be separated 143 00:11:00,702 --> 00:11:04,497 from anything related to convent life, 144 00:11:04,581 --> 00:11:06,166 related to Cathy. 145 00:11:06,666 --> 00:11:07,959 She wanted a new life. 146 00:11:09,669 --> 00:11:16,217 So, Russ left the convent, got married, and had two children. 147 00:11:18,845 --> 00:11:20,680 I sold her a house, actually. 148 00:11:21,055 --> 00:11:25,059 She moved out here to Carroll County, and we did a lot together. 149 00:11:26,185 --> 00:11:30,231 I had many conversations with her, but it would never go in that direction, 150 00:11:30,315 --> 00:11:31,649 she wouldn't allow it. 151 00:11:31,983 --> 00:11:33,985 And I would say, "What happened? 152 00:11:35,028 --> 00:11:36,863 Do you know more than you're saying? 153 00:11:37,405 --> 00:11:38,948 Why can't you talk about it?" 154 00:11:39,365 --> 00:11:42,744 And she'd say, "My life is in a different place. 155 00:11:43,161 --> 00:11:45,830 That was my life before." That's what she'd say. 156 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,583 It was like, one day, she's gonna talk. 157 00:11:48,666 --> 00:11:50,084 One day, it's gonna come out. 158 00:11:56,549 --> 00:11:59,928 1997, I heard that she had cancer. 159 00:12:00,595 --> 00:12:03,473 We stayed in touch. I went to visit her in the hospital 160 00:12:03,556 --> 00:12:05,892 when she had surgeries and things like that. 161 00:12:07,435 --> 00:12:11,606 A couple years pass, and it's 2001. 162 00:12:12,023 --> 00:12:15,485 You know, the stories are out in papers and all that, 163 00:12:15,568 --> 00:12:17,862 and Maskell's name was being mentioned. 164 00:12:18,780 --> 00:12:20,740 So, this friend of mine 165 00:12:20,823 --> 00:12:23,785 was working as a nurse at Stella Maris hospice, 166 00:12:24,452 --> 00:12:26,496 and she calls me up and said, 167 00:12:26,579 --> 00:12:30,625 "Pat, I want you to know that Father Maskell died this afternoon. 168 00:12:32,752 --> 00:12:35,463 But don't tell anybody, I could lose my job." 169 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,469 So, that evening, not listening to my friend, I called Russ. 170 00:12:41,552 --> 00:12:43,054 That's the only person I called. 171 00:12:43,137 --> 00:12:47,433 And I said, "Russ, I just want you to know that Father Maskell died this afternoon." 172 00:12:47,934 --> 00:12:52,063 And Russ's one remark was, 173 00:12:52,355 --> 00:12:55,066 "Well, he went to his grave with his secret." 174 00:12:58,361 --> 00:13:03,783 Somehow, Russ did feel that he was involved with Cathy's death. 175 00:13:05,535 --> 00:13:08,496 And there was more to the story than I knew. 176 00:13:09,330 --> 00:13:12,959 And then I get a phone call two days later from her husband... 177 00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:15,837 saying that Russ died. 178 00:13:25,555 --> 00:13:29,100 Then we get some, um, Saturday afternoon ice cream. 179 00:13:29,976 --> 00:13:31,227 Yeah. Mm-hm. 180 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,691 I don't tell her I put peanut butter right in it 181 00:13:36,774 --> 00:13:41,195 because this is more of the protein that I want her to get, 182 00:13:41,863 --> 00:13:43,448 instead of just ice cream. 183 00:13:44,407 --> 00:13:45,575 I do the best I can. 184 00:13:51,164 --> 00:13:53,875 I was feeling feelings about my mom. 185 00:13:54,542 --> 00:13:59,130 This feeling of that 16-year-old behind that wall of lies, 186 00:13:59,213 --> 00:14:01,632 just saying, "Where were you?" 187 00:14:01,716 --> 00:14:03,968 You know, "Where were you?" 188 00:14:08,765 --> 00:14:12,894 How she has been there for me in so many ways, 189 00:14:13,728 --> 00:14:19,942 but how to let that be enough when she wasn't there for me 190 00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:21,903 when this was going on. 191 00:14:23,071 --> 00:14:27,325 So, what I did what I asked Abbie if, um, I wrote something, would she post it. 192 00:14:32,538 --> 00:14:34,832 "Hi, this is my first posting 193 00:14:34,916 --> 00:14:37,168 on this wonderful grassroots healing site. 194 00:14:38,294 --> 00:14:40,838 As I care for my 88-year-old mother, 195 00:14:41,130 --> 00:14:42,548 I'm painfully aware 196 00:14:42,799 --> 00:14:46,094 of one of the many things robbed from me by Joseph Maskell. 197 00:14:47,053 --> 00:14:50,807 He took, deliberately and methodically, my God-given right 198 00:14:50,890 --> 00:14:53,810 to a deep, trusting relationship with my mom, 199 00:14:54,185 --> 00:14:56,145 and her right to be there for me." 200 00:14:58,147 --> 00:15:02,193 The more that I am connecting to the part of me 201 00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:05,405 that survived after Cathy... 202 00:15:06,114 --> 00:15:08,533 um... the more I'm beginning to... 203 00:15:08,825 --> 00:15:10,535 To touch the anger. 204 00:15:10,618 --> 00:15:14,789 The anger pushes you forward and you start talking to people, 205 00:15:14,872 --> 00:15:17,333 and being in front of a camera, and you know... 206 00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:22,088 You start to do things that put your feelings and thoughts 207 00:15:22,171 --> 00:15:26,175 out there for others to critique, you know. 208 00:15:27,718 --> 00:15:29,762 When I look back now 209 00:15:29,846 --> 00:15:32,348 at all the different personalities that we've met, 210 00:15:32,432 --> 00:15:38,396 Jean stands out as someone who has consistently told 211 00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:42,567 the same story, and has, sort of, a sense of personal integrity. 212 00:15:43,317 --> 00:15:48,531 She's taking her own insights and the implications of all this, 213 00:15:48,865 --> 00:15:51,242 and trying to put the pieces together. 214 00:15:51,325 --> 00:15:55,788 But she's probably not willing to be definite about it 215 00:15:55,872 --> 00:15:57,832 until she's absolutely sure. 216 00:16:04,881 --> 00:16:08,384 Brother Bob is still, to this day, faceless to me. 217 00:16:11,888 --> 00:16:15,808 But my memory is beginning to flesh out more and more. 218 00:16:19,979 --> 00:16:24,025 Brother Bob said to me that he knew Cathy Cesnik 219 00:16:24,484 --> 00:16:28,529 and that, um, she was confiding in him 220 00:16:28,613 --> 00:16:31,073 that she was going to the police about the abuse. 221 00:16:33,409 --> 00:16:36,162 And he hit her, he didn't mean to kill her. 222 00:16:38,539 --> 00:16:41,083 On top of repressing the memories, 223 00:16:41,959 --> 00:16:44,754 the experience was so traumatizing 224 00:16:45,004 --> 00:16:48,966 that it's pushed a lot of the identity of this person... 225 00:16:49,050 --> 00:16:53,179 Any facial identity, that has not surfaced. 226 00:16:57,975 --> 00:17:01,938 I do remember that he had markings on his abdomen. 227 00:17:02,897 --> 00:17:06,859 It was a birthmark or it was a mole of some sort, right over on this side. 228 00:17:07,443 --> 00:17:12,532 And he had a small incision on the right side of his abdomen. 229 00:17:20,164 --> 00:17:24,585 I understand that people are going to wanna see if this one person, 230 00:17:24,669 --> 00:17:26,921 me, who remembers what I remember, 231 00:17:27,505 --> 00:17:31,384 can't remember a little more to get a little clearer, 232 00:17:33,094 --> 00:17:36,514 to get more of an identity to who that Brother Bob is. 233 00:17:44,063 --> 00:17:47,233 But I can't force myself to remember anything else, 234 00:17:47,316 --> 00:17:51,654 and in all honesty, I don't know when and if that is surfacing. 235 00:17:59,453 --> 00:18:01,914 Well, let me, um... Just a little, Bob. 236 00:18:02,415 --> 00:18:03,457 That's good for me. 237 00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:06,002 I'll bet I can get it on my phone. 238 00:18:06,085 --> 00:18:07,628 Yeah, I got it on my phone. 239 00:18:09,714 --> 00:18:14,135 When Cathy went missing, Russell told me... She said, "Cathy went shopping 240 00:18:14,218 --> 00:18:16,429 to get you something for your engagement." 241 00:18:17,305 --> 00:18:20,224 I thought, oh, my gosh, if we hadn't gotten engaged, you know... 242 00:18:20,308 --> 00:18:22,393 You know how you think that? If I hadn't gotten engaged, 243 00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:25,187 she wouldn't have gone shopping, and she wouldn't have been 244 00:18:25,271 --> 00:18:28,065 in the wrong place at the wrong time. You know, which... 245 00:18:28,232 --> 00:18:30,276 The wrong-place-wrong-time story again. 246 00:18:33,321 --> 00:18:36,157 She left to go shopping. Other than that, I knew nothing. 247 00:18:37,491 --> 00:18:40,244 So, I didn't know if she'd died before she got to the store, 248 00:18:40,328 --> 00:18:41,996 or after the store, or anything. 249 00:18:46,083 --> 00:18:49,795 The entire mall was checked by investigators from the city at the time 250 00:18:49,879 --> 00:18:53,090 in an attempt to locate a store that she may have gone into. 251 00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:55,635 There was no indication 252 00:18:55,926 --> 00:18:58,304 they were able to find that she made this purchase. 253 00:18:58,387 --> 00:19:01,557 Now, she could've made a cash purchase and, uh... 254 00:19:02,516 --> 00:19:04,226 they just weren't able to locate it, 255 00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:06,729 but they never were able to make that determination 256 00:19:06,812 --> 00:19:09,732 whether she actually, um, made that purchase. 257 00:19:13,861 --> 00:19:16,530 I saw the necklace yesterday for the first time. 258 00:19:16,614 --> 00:19:21,077 And, um, in looking at it, the bell would symbolize a wedding, 259 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,164 which makes sense, 'cause we had just gotten engaged the week before. 260 00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:28,751 Did you see this, Bob? Yeah. Let's see it. 261 00:19:31,712 --> 00:19:35,257 Yeah, it does look like bell, doesn't it? It does look like a bell. 262 00:19:35,341 --> 00:19:37,510 It looks like it'd be appropriate. Yeah. 263 00:19:37,635 --> 00:19:39,637 And... And your birthstone. 264 00:19:41,597 --> 00:19:44,600 So, I understand this birthstone is a peridot 265 00:19:44,684 --> 00:19:47,395 and that would be an August birthstone. 266 00:19:48,145 --> 00:19:52,775 My husband's birthday is in August so, it could've symbolized his birthday. 267 00:19:54,026 --> 00:19:57,446 You have to understand, Cathy was very, very happy for me 268 00:19:57,780 --> 00:19:59,198 that I chose Bob. 269 00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:03,119 She really thought Bob would take care of me forever, 270 00:20:03,202 --> 00:20:07,289 and as a matter of fact, um, Bob had gone to Vietnam for a year 271 00:20:07,373 --> 00:20:08,833 and my sister wrote to him, 272 00:20:09,125 --> 00:20:12,044 because she was trying to establish a relationship with him. 273 00:20:14,004 --> 00:20:17,299 If this is true, this would be so typical Cathy, 274 00:20:17,508 --> 00:20:20,928 because everything she did had a meaning and everything was deep. 275 00:20:21,470 --> 00:20:24,098 So, that would've been Cathy. 276 00:20:24,932 --> 00:20:25,933 Totally. 277 00:20:52,042 --> 00:20:55,504 Um, Edgar, I wanted to show you these pictures. 278 00:20:58,591 --> 00:21:00,217 You can flip through them. 279 00:21:03,512 --> 00:21:05,848 Does that look familiar to you at all? 280 00:21:05,931 --> 00:21:07,266 No. 281 00:21:12,104 --> 00:21:13,689 That's jewelry or something. 282 00:21:14,190 --> 00:21:15,065 Mm-hm. 283 00:21:16,233 --> 00:21:20,279 It's a necklace that you gave to your first wife for Christmas. 284 00:21:21,197 --> 00:21:22,948 Do you remember giving that to her? 285 00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:26,577 Her birthstone was red. 286 00:21:30,706 --> 00:21:34,251 So, why would you have gotten her a green birthstone, which is August? 287 00:21:37,588 --> 00:21:39,548 I don't have the slightest idea. 288 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:45,513 We know Sister Cathy was out buying a present for her sister. 289 00:21:46,263 --> 00:21:51,519 And that, a month later, you gave this necklace to your wife. 290 00:21:55,231 --> 00:21:57,441 Did you show it to Cathy's sister? 291 00:21:57,525 --> 00:22:02,613 Yeah, and Cathy's sister is wondering whether that might be her necklace, 292 00:22:02,988 --> 00:22:06,534 uh, because she knows her sister was out buying her an engagement present 293 00:22:06,617 --> 00:22:09,036 that night, and as you see in that necklace, 294 00:22:09,328 --> 00:22:10,788 it has a wedding bell... 295 00:22:11,747 --> 00:22:15,000 it has a birthstone that is the same birthstone 296 00:22:15,084 --> 00:22:18,754 as the man that Sister Cathy's sister was marrying. 297 00:22:19,505 --> 00:22:22,508 So, she thinks there might be some significance to that necklace, 298 00:22:22,591 --> 00:22:25,094 and she's wondering whether you might have gotten it 299 00:22:25,177 --> 00:22:27,346 from Sister Cathy that night. 300 00:22:42,278 --> 00:22:44,029 Means nothing to me. 301 00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:48,117 Did you encounter Sister Cathy that night? 302 00:22:48,742 --> 00:22:49,660 No. 303 00:22:50,619 --> 00:22:53,163 Now, if people think that that was the necklace 304 00:22:53,247 --> 00:22:55,916 that Sister Cathy bought the night she disappeared, 305 00:22:56,542 --> 00:22:58,627 and you gave it to your first wife, 306 00:22:58,711 --> 00:23:01,797 do you understand why people are suspicious because of that? 307 00:23:02,298 --> 00:23:03,257 Mm-hm. 308 00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:14,810 There is a police report indicating 309 00:23:14,893 --> 00:23:17,813 that when, uh, Sister Cesnik went missing, 310 00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:21,692 we have an eyewitness that saw a male driver 311 00:23:21,775 --> 00:23:24,153 driving Sister Cesnik's vehicle from the scene. 312 00:23:25,154 --> 00:23:28,991 It appeared as though Sister Cesnik was trying to exit the vehicle 313 00:23:29,074 --> 00:23:32,536 on the passenger side, but she never got out of the vehicle. 314 00:23:33,954 --> 00:23:38,459 At the time the vehicle was recovered, there was mud on the tires... 315 00:23:38,542 --> 00:23:40,711 there was a branch inside the vehicle. 316 00:23:41,754 --> 00:23:44,131 It was a twig, a small branch, 317 00:23:44,757 --> 00:23:48,177 and it would be consistent with the area where the body was found. 318 00:23:48,636 --> 00:23:51,513 So, the driver would've been the one to drive 319 00:23:51,972 --> 00:23:53,891 from the area where the body was located 320 00:23:53,974 --> 00:23:56,518 back where the Carriage House was located, 321 00:23:57,186 --> 00:24:00,397 because he would've been the last person to operate the vehicle. 322 00:24:00,814 --> 00:24:03,942 This might be urban legend, and I don't know if it's in the reports, 323 00:24:04,026 --> 00:24:06,654 but we've heard that, uh, there was indication 324 00:24:06,737 --> 00:24:08,072 that perhaps someone who drove 325 00:24:08,155 --> 00:24:12,284 with both of their feet might have driven the car at some point that night. 326 00:24:12,368 --> 00:24:14,370 Does that ring any bells with you? 327 00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:18,624 After they located the vehicle, 328 00:24:18,707 --> 00:24:22,336 there was mud located, um, on the brake pedal 329 00:24:22,419 --> 00:24:25,297 but no mud recovered from the gas pedal, 330 00:24:26,006 --> 00:24:28,842 which may have led investigators to believe that the person 331 00:24:28,926 --> 00:24:35,099 that drove the vehicle, um, used two feet to, uh, operate the vehicle. 332 00:24:38,102 --> 00:24:41,438 I'm just curious if by any chance you drive with both of your feet? 333 00:24:43,273 --> 00:24:45,442 What's that got to do with anything? 334 00:24:45,526 --> 00:24:49,530 I was just curious because whoever drove Cathy's car that night, 335 00:24:49,613 --> 00:24:54,326 based on the mud on the pedal, drove with two different feet. 336 00:24:55,285 --> 00:24:56,662 I don't drive at all. 337 00:24:57,746 --> 00:24:58,914 But back in the day? 338 00:24:59,707 --> 00:25:01,709 Did you drive with two feet? Yeah. 339 00:25:07,965 --> 00:25:11,927 I had nothing to do with her disappearance, her murder or anything. 340 00:25:17,391 --> 00:25:18,976 What about other suspects? 341 00:25:20,269 --> 00:25:23,439 We have talked to Edgar Davidson quite a few times, 342 00:25:23,522 --> 00:25:28,360 and he admitted that he is the person who called The Jerry Turner Show 343 00:25:28,902 --> 00:25:33,449 in the '70s to talk about evidence about the murder of Sister Cathy. 344 00:25:34,033 --> 00:25:37,494 Are you able to verify or confirm whether he's ever been looked at? 345 00:25:38,203 --> 00:25:42,040 No. I can't comment on anything we're looking at currently 346 00:25:42,124 --> 00:25:43,917 or any part of that investigation. 347 00:25:44,001 --> 00:25:47,504 Some of the things I've commented on is because you knew about them already, 348 00:25:47,588 --> 00:25:48,672 and I can comment. 349 00:25:49,423 --> 00:25:53,135 Then the other one is a neighbor of Sister Cathy's named Billy Schmidt, 350 00:25:53,594 --> 00:25:55,137 whose family we're working with, 351 00:25:55,220 --> 00:25:59,850 and they are, for various reasons, convinced that their family member, Billy, 352 00:25:59,933 --> 00:26:02,269 who lived across the hall from her, was involved. 353 00:26:04,062 --> 00:26:07,357 As far as viable suspects, current suspects, 354 00:26:07,816 --> 00:26:10,986 I can't say anything regarding what we're doing 355 00:26:11,069 --> 00:26:12,404 or what we know about that. 356 00:26:15,824 --> 00:26:19,536 I told detectives about it that came to see me in the '90s. 357 00:26:20,287 --> 00:26:22,998 They were reopening the case. 358 00:26:23,707 --> 00:26:27,002 And I've told them everything that I know about it just like I'm telling you. 359 00:26:28,170 --> 00:26:29,463 I did ask them... 360 00:26:30,672 --> 00:26:34,927 "I know you didn't have DNA back then, but I know you have DNA today. 361 00:26:36,136 --> 00:26:39,431 Did you find any cigarette butts back there where her body was found? 362 00:26:40,516 --> 00:26:41,850 Maybe Salem?" 363 00:26:42,601 --> 00:26:46,647 I told them Bill smoked Salem, and they looked at each other, 364 00:26:47,731 --> 00:26:51,527 and the one said, "Yeah, we did find some cigarette butts." 365 00:26:52,528 --> 00:26:54,404 But I never heard how it turned out. 366 00:26:55,989 --> 00:26:57,366 Well... 367 00:26:59,076 --> 00:27:02,579 We... I can't tell you what, but we have a piece of evidence 368 00:27:02,788 --> 00:27:05,666 that was recovered that we did develop DNA from. 369 00:27:06,708 --> 00:27:08,293 And is that piece of evidence...? 370 00:27:08,377 --> 00:27:10,462 Is that the cigarette that I've heard about? 371 00:27:14,132 --> 00:27:15,175 Yeah. Yes. 372 00:27:15,259 --> 00:27:20,013 Okay. And would that cigarette most likely be linked to the crime? 373 00:27:24,142 --> 00:27:25,227 It could be. 374 00:27:25,310 --> 00:27:27,396 The reason we didn't really wanna mention that 375 00:27:27,479 --> 00:27:29,982 is because we're still... It's still open investigation, 376 00:27:30,065 --> 00:27:32,317 we still got a couple people we wanna look at. 377 00:27:32,401 --> 00:27:33,944 Okay? Um... 378 00:27:34,903 --> 00:27:37,823 Let's just say this, all the things you've commented on 379 00:27:38,365 --> 00:27:39,908 are all very interesting to me. 380 00:27:41,493 --> 00:27:43,662 And all of those things will be re-looked at. 381 00:27:44,288 --> 00:27:48,959 Any person in the past that was looked at, polygraphed, brought in for interviews, 382 00:27:49,793 --> 00:27:54,756 Koob, McKeon, Maskell, several other civilians... 383 00:27:55,424 --> 00:27:58,135 We are gonna revisit a lot of these things. 384 00:27:58,719 --> 00:28:02,264 And I do have hope that one day, we solve this case. 385 00:28:12,399 --> 00:28:13,233 Uh... 386 00:28:14,484 --> 00:28:17,863 So, this is... Yeah, these are the Malecki papers, 387 00:28:17,946 --> 00:28:19,656 the old newspaper articles. 388 00:28:21,325 --> 00:28:23,577 Four days after Sister Cathy was abducted, 389 00:28:23,660 --> 00:28:29,041 a young woman named Joyce Malecki was abducted and murdered. 390 00:28:30,751 --> 00:28:32,920 "Understandably, police investigators 391 00:28:33,003 --> 00:28:35,589 and newspaper reporters were intensely interested 392 00:28:35,672 --> 00:28:39,259 in the possibility that there might be some connection between the two killings, 393 00:28:40,135 --> 00:28:43,013 but no such link between the murders has ever been established, 394 00:28:43,096 --> 00:28:46,683 according to FBI and Baltimore Police officials today." 395 00:28:49,061 --> 00:28:50,562 Growing up at a young age, 396 00:28:50,729 --> 00:28:53,649 we went to St. Clement's Catholic Church 397 00:28:53,732 --> 00:28:55,275 and we went to Sunday school. 398 00:28:56,193 --> 00:29:00,739 We would walk down to St. Clement's, we'd go past 1st Avenue 399 00:29:00,822 --> 00:29:04,993 and that was the rectory where Father Maskell lived. 400 00:29:07,913 --> 00:29:09,331 She was his parishioner. 401 00:29:09,414 --> 00:29:11,250 The Maleckis lived two blocks 402 00:29:11,333 --> 00:29:14,753 from the rectory and church where Maskell was. 403 00:29:16,672 --> 00:29:18,799 We knew that the rectory was there. 404 00:29:18,882 --> 00:29:21,301 We knew Father Maskell was living there, 405 00:29:21,843 --> 00:29:25,514 and you would actually feel honored being of the Catholic religion 406 00:29:25,597 --> 00:29:27,933 to be that close to a priest. 407 00:29:30,269 --> 00:29:32,604 The priest that they were investigating 408 00:29:32,688 --> 00:29:34,606 for Sister Catherine Cesnik's death, 409 00:29:35,232 --> 00:29:36,191 Priest Maskell, 410 00:29:37,192 --> 00:29:42,406 sent my mother a sympathy card when Joyce had her funeral. 411 00:29:44,408 --> 00:29:47,411 No one, said the wise men of the FBI, 412 00:29:47,494 --> 00:29:50,622 has ever made a connection between Maskell and Malecki. 413 00:29:52,499 --> 00:29:58,547 Here's the card signed by Father Maskell after Joyce Malecki is killed. 414 00:29:58,630 --> 00:30:00,299 She was two blocks from the rectory, 415 00:30:00,382 --> 00:30:03,927 she was going to Mass and confession, and all the rest with Maskell, 416 00:30:04,303 --> 00:30:09,224 and, uh, if the FBI and its 4000 pages of stuff doesn't have this, I'd... 417 00:30:09,308 --> 00:30:12,394 I'd feel even more disappointed in them than I already am. 418 00:30:14,062 --> 00:30:17,983 FBI had jurisdictions over Joyce's death because her body was found 419 00:30:18,066 --> 00:30:20,986 in a wooded area at Fort Meade Military Base. 420 00:30:22,487 --> 00:30:25,032 Tom Nugent had looked into it years ago, 421 00:30:25,115 --> 00:30:28,035 and he was told by the FBI that they determined 422 00:30:28,118 --> 00:30:31,663 it didn't have anything to do with the, you know, military or the government 423 00:30:31,955 --> 00:30:33,957 and so they didn't do an investigation. 424 00:30:34,041 --> 00:30:36,460 They had handed the case over to Anne Arundel County. 425 00:30:38,086 --> 00:30:42,966 Anne Arundel County Police said, "FBI never handed anything to us. 426 00:30:43,050 --> 00:30:46,053 We have no records, no case. We never investigated anything." 427 00:30:49,806 --> 00:30:53,977 Which left us saying, did anybody investigate her murder? 428 00:30:55,395 --> 00:30:58,690 I've been pursuing this for the last 15 years. 429 00:31:00,192 --> 00:31:04,780 Once a year, cold cases are reviewed, but nothing's been done. 430 00:31:05,614 --> 00:31:07,324 And my question is why? 431 00:31:08,867 --> 00:31:12,954 I mean, I go to bed at night or I wake up in the morning, and it's on my mind. 432 00:31:14,539 --> 00:31:15,791 You know, who did this? 433 00:31:15,874 --> 00:31:17,167 It doesn't go away. 434 00:31:22,881 --> 00:31:27,344 I filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the FBI, 435 00:31:28,178 --> 00:31:33,392 who confirmed they had about 4,000 pages of documents on Joyce. 436 00:31:34,309 --> 00:31:37,145 It's been awaiting assignment to someone to review. 437 00:31:38,522 --> 00:31:43,110 Okay. So, in... This was September 5th of 2014 I sent it in. 438 00:31:44,611 --> 00:31:48,407 I began writing them a letter every four to six weeks saying, 439 00:31:48,490 --> 00:31:49,741 "Could you please update me 440 00:31:49,825 --> 00:31:53,203 in terms of an anticipated delivery of the documents?" 441 00:31:56,748 --> 00:31:57,707 I naively thought, 442 00:31:57,791 --> 00:31:59,751 "Well, in six weeks, we'll have this." 443 00:32:00,836 --> 00:32:02,671 "The FBI's FOIA program 444 00:32:02,754 --> 00:32:05,882 has identified potential response of information for your request 445 00:32:06,341 --> 00:32:09,094 and awaits assignment to a government information specialist 446 00:32:09,177 --> 00:32:10,429 for further processing." 447 00:32:13,181 --> 00:32:18,186 This one's from January 2015, so, five months or so after we sent it. 448 00:32:18,687 --> 00:32:21,440 "Currently, your request is in the perfected backlog 449 00:32:21,898 --> 00:32:24,359 where your request is awaiting assignment to an analyst." 450 00:32:25,235 --> 00:32:27,279 There's a requirement on the federal law, 451 00:32:27,362 --> 00:32:30,031 how long an agency has to reply to your request, 452 00:32:30,615 --> 00:32:32,826 but there is no law 453 00:32:32,909 --> 00:32:36,705 about how long they have to actually send you the documents. 454 00:32:37,622 --> 00:32:39,124 When it first happened, 455 00:32:39,207 --> 00:32:40,625 the FBI told us 456 00:32:40,709 --> 00:32:43,211 that they did find fingerprints in the car, 457 00:32:44,171 --> 00:32:46,339 but they said they didn't have a name to attach it to. 458 00:32:46,923 --> 00:32:49,342 They also said they had forensic evidence 459 00:32:50,051 --> 00:32:53,054 from her nails, where she apparently put up a fight, 460 00:32:53,138 --> 00:32:55,140 but they didn't have anything to go on. 461 00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,103 And that was one of the questions I asked about 15 years ago, 462 00:33:01,438 --> 00:33:03,273 "If you've got fingerprints, 463 00:33:03,356 --> 00:33:06,485 have you run them through the National Data Bank?" 464 00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:08,236 And they said no. 465 00:33:08,820 --> 00:33:13,283 I said, "Well, if you got forensic evidence, have you done any DNA on it?" 466 00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:15,619 They said, "No." I asked, why? 467 00:33:16,203 --> 00:33:19,206 They said, "Two reasons, budget and manpower." 468 00:33:20,123 --> 00:33:22,083 And that's the excuse I was given, 469 00:33:22,167 --> 00:33:23,502 and led out the door. 470 00:33:25,670 --> 00:33:27,631 "Dear FOIA Officer, this is a request 471 00:33:27,714 --> 00:33:29,549 under the Freedom of Information Act." 472 00:33:31,259 --> 00:33:35,096 This one is dated February 2016. 473 00:33:35,805 --> 00:33:39,559 "Thank you for your inquiry regarding the status of your FOIA request. 474 00:33:39,643 --> 00:33:44,064 The current estimated date of completion for your request is April 2016." 475 00:33:45,899 --> 00:33:47,150 Weeks went by. 476 00:33:48,443 --> 00:33:50,862 April came and went and I never heard anything. 477 00:33:52,906 --> 00:33:56,451 I filed the original request in August of 2014. 478 00:33:56,535 --> 00:33:59,829 Coming in two and a half years. Seems like a hundred years ago. 479 00:33:59,913 --> 00:34:03,333 And two and a half years and we have nothing. 480 00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:09,589 The Maleckis feel like... They've been abandoned. 481 00:34:10,173 --> 00:34:11,007 Yeah. 482 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:19,015 Our sister Joyce was 20 years old, 483 00:34:19,099 --> 00:34:21,017 in the prime of her life, 484 00:34:21,101 --> 00:34:23,645 and her life being snatched away from her, 485 00:34:24,104 --> 00:34:26,773 it's a crime and it needs to be dealt with accordingly. 486 00:34:27,941 --> 00:34:30,277 My parents have passed away, 487 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,697 everybody is going to pass away at some point in time. 488 00:34:33,780 --> 00:34:39,536 And when we pass away, then, they won't have to hear from anybody ever again. 489 00:34:39,619 --> 00:34:42,872 They can put it in their cold case file 490 00:34:42,956 --> 00:34:44,624 and forget about it. 491 00:34:44,708 --> 00:34:45,959 Somebody should talk to us. 492 00:34:46,585 --> 00:34:49,087 If there's nothing, tell us that. 493 00:34:50,255 --> 00:34:54,467 Just don't put us in a closet and hope we go away one day. 494 00:35:24,914 --> 00:35:26,583 Thank you, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice-Chair, 495 00:35:26,666 --> 00:35:28,043 members of the committee. 496 00:35:29,294 --> 00:35:33,548 This bill was, uh... Been back and forth in front of this body since about 2003. 497 00:35:33,632 --> 00:35:34,466 For some reason, 498 00:35:34,549 --> 00:35:37,844 this bill has been interpreted to be an attack on religious organizations 499 00:35:38,553 --> 00:35:40,430 and it's died repeatedly. 500 00:35:55,820 --> 00:35:58,031 People would ask, you know, 25 years, you know, 501 00:35:58,698 --> 00:36:00,200 they're grown people, right? 502 00:36:00,283 --> 00:36:04,287 I was in combat, I was out of military by the time I was 25, I'd served eight years. 503 00:36:06,956 --> 00:36:09,542 Well, the problem with this is suppression. 504 00:36:09,626 --> 00:36:12,087 People don't wanna acknowledge that it happened. 505 00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:15,757 You've learned to live with the lie as a child, so you can live as an adult. 506 00:36:17,884 --> 00:36:20,303 Growing up, I was in foster homes 507 00:36:20,387 --> 00:36:22,138 and I was adopted at some point 508 00:36:22,514 --> 00:36:23,765 by Tom and Millie Wilson. 509 00:36:25,058 --> 00:36:25,892 He was a, uh... 510 00:36:26,393 --> 00:36:29,187 He was a school teacher, you know, a Sunday school teacher, 511 00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:31,231 a Cub Scout leader, and he was a pedophile. 512 00:36:31,564 --> 00:36:35,485 And so from, like, the ages of eight or nine until about 16, 513 00:36:36,027 --> 00:36:37,404 I endured a lot. 514 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,158 Why do we wait so long to come forward? 515 00:36:42,826 --> 00:36:45,203 I was 40 years old when I came forward. 516 00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:47,872 It took me that amount of time 517 00:36:47,956 --> 00:36:51,543 to focus my life and make something of myself. 518 00:36:52,127 --> 00:36:53,294 I'm 80 years old. 519 00:36:57,632 --> 00:37:00,009 Anyway, I could have been a much better father 520 00:37:00,885 --> 00:37:03,430 and a much better... 521 00:37:03,513 --> 00:37:07,600 husband, but anyway, it affected me a great deal. 522 00:37:07,684 --> 00:37:09,269 I want you all to think about something. 523 00:37:09,352 --> 00:37:12,188 Everybody has a secret that they don't want to admit. 524 00:37:13,565 --> 00:37:16,359 Come up here and stand up here, and admit it to everybody, 525 00:37:16,443 --> 00:37:18,486 because that's what you're asking me to do 526 00:37:18,570 --> 00:37:21,030 and that's what you're asking a 25-year-old to do. 527 00:37:21,114 --> 00:37:24,409 You're asking them to take the deepest, darkest secret they have 528 00:37:24,743 --> 00:37:27,287 and stand up in front of a jury, and tell them. 529 00:37:27,871 --> 00:37:31,166 I can testify that there are many victims 530 00:37:31,249 --> 00:37:33,168 that were abused by Maskell 531 00:37:33,251 --> 00:37:35,837 who have not even begun to live. 532 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,631 They live in quiet solitude. 533 00:37:39,299 --> 00:37:42,635 I ask you to please pass this bill. Thank you. 534 00:37:42,969 --> 00:37:45,513 Thank you very much for your testimony. Thank you. 535 00:37:46,264 --> 00:37:49,601 All right. Uh... Now we're turning to the opposition, Mr. Murphy? 536 00:37:50,185 --> 00:37:52,270 My name is Kevin Murphy. I'm an attorney. 537 00:37:52,854 --> 00:37:56,149 I was asked by the Maryland Catholic Conference to testify 538 00:37:56,232 --> 00:38:00,737 because I've been involved in many, many cases, uh, involving... 539 00:38:00,820 --> 00:38:02,572 I was surprised that the Catholic Church 540 00:38:02,655 --> 00:38:03,990 was coming out against this. 541 00:38:04,073 --> 00:38:06,951 This wasn't me against the Church, it's what it's turned into. 542 00:38:07,786 --> 00:38:09,078 Statute of limitations, 543 00:38:09,162 --> 00:38:11,623 they spare the courts from litigation of stale claims 544 00:38:11,706 --> 00:38:13,374 and they spare the citizen 545 00:38:13,458 --> 00:38:16,961 from being put to his defense after memories have faded, 546 00:38:17,921 --> 00:38:21,800 witnesses have died or disappeared, and the evidence has been lost. 547 00:38:22,842 --> 00:38:26,054 When I sat there and watched Kevin Murphy talk, 548 00:38:26,346 --> 00:38:30,308 he did bring back memories in the Doe-Roe-Maskell case, 549 00:38:30,683 --> 00:38:33,478 interrogating me back in '94. 550 00:38:34,062 --> 00:38:38,066 And today, he stands up there speaking as though he really cares 551 00:38:38,149 --> 00:38:41,027 about people that are abused. 552 00:38:42,654 --> 00:38:45,031 Are there any other values 553 00:38:45,114 --> 00:38:47,116 that you think the statute of limitations serves 554 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,369 other than for the weakness of human memory? 555 00:38:49,953 --> 00:38:52,288 Seven years is not a short statute of limitations. 556 00:38:52,372 --> 00:38:56,876 It's a pretty long statute of limitations, but it protects from the alleged abuser 557 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,629 continuing to abuse for the next 13 years. 558 00:38:59,712 --> 00:39:04,050 If you change the statute, 13 years can go by before the person comes forward. 559 00:39:04,551 --> 00:39:06,135 I stepped out at that point 560 00:39:06,219 --> 00:39:07,887 because I knew I was gonna be angry. 561 00:39:08,596 --> 00:39:11,391 How dare them say something so arrogant, 562 00:39:11,641 --> 00:39:15,228 so transparently self-serving 563 00:39:15,478 --> 00:39:19,315 as, "Well, the victims, they... We need to pressure them to come forward." 564 00:39:19,482 --> 00:39:20,650 Do you really? 565 00:39:22,610 --> 00:39:25,446 I am opposed to Senate Bill 68 because I believe 566 00:39:25,530 --> 00:39:30,869 our focus must be on providing outreach to survivors of child sexual abuse 567 00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:33,705 and preventing child sexual abuse from occurring. 568 00:39:34,497 --> 00:39:36,666 I understand that there may be reasons 569 00:39:36,749 --> 00:39:39,335 that a survivor is not inclined to come forward earlier, 570 00:39:39,419 --> 00:39:42,714 but the reality is that the perpetrator often remains in a position 571 00:39:42,797 --> 00:39:45,925 of close access to children until an allegation is reported 572 00:39:46,009 --> 00:39:48,261 to the civil authorities and the employer. 573 00:39:49,220 --> 00:39:51,306 They make it seem like it's the victim's fault, 574 00:39:51,389 --> 00:39:53,933 that if the victim doesn't step up by the age of 25, 575 00:39:54,517 --> 00:39:55,894 then they're the ones... 576 00:39:56,436 --> 00:39:57,729 They're the ones to blame. 577 00:39:59,063 --> 00:40:01,107 Now, that's every abuser's line, isn't it? 578 00:40:01,691 --> 00:40:04,694 "This is your fault." I don't need anybody to remind me 579 00:40:04,777 --> 00:40:07,989 that me not speaking up may have caused a lot of other victims. 580 00:40:08,865 --> 00:40:09,699 Yeah. 581 00:40:10,450 --> 00:40:11,826 That's utterly disgusting. 582 00:40:12,493 --> 00:40:15,371 We have also reached settlement agreements with many survivors, 583 00:40:15,455 --> 00:40:19,626 even though their claims are time-barred and we have no legal obligation to do so. 584 00:40:20,209 --> 00:40:21,044 Thank you. 585 00:40:21,336 --> 00:40:22,670 Thank you for your testimony. 586 00:40:22,754 --> 00:40:25,256 That concludes the hearing on Senate Bill 668. 587 00:40:25,423 --> 00:40:27,216 That concludes the hearings for today. 588 00:40:31,596 --> 00:40:34,974 Good morning. I'm here to file some bills. 589 00:40:38,144 --> 00:40:40,521 A bill can die without ever being voted on 590 00:40:40,605 --> 00:40:43,191 because the chairman says so. 591 00:40:44,192 --> 00:40:46,569 This is gonna end up costing me my political career. 592 00:40:46,653 --> 00:40:50,156 This interview might be the end of me being a delegate, pretty sure. 593 00:40:54,035 --> 00:40:56,871 I'll tell you that Senator Mike Miller, who runs the Senate, 594 00:40:56,955 --> 00:40:59,666 and Delegate Vallario, do not let this bill come to a vote, 595 00:40:59,749 --> 00:41:02,418 because they know if it came to a vote, it would pass. 596 00:41:04,420 --> 00:41:07,298 I mean, I know because I've been told, specifically. 597 00:41:07,382 --> 00:41:08,383 Joe has told me 598 00:41:08,466 --> 00:41:10,802 the Church has contacted him and said this bill can't pass. 599 00:41:14,889 --> 00:41:16,265 They don't want that bill out, 600 00:41:17,058 --> 00:41:19,102 so it doesn't get a vote. 601 00:41:21,521 --> 00:41:24,816 Beyond the old separation of church and state doctrine, 602 00:41:26,943 --> 00:41:30,238 there should be something about this that has you go, "Wait a minute." 603 00:41:52,927 --> 00:41:56,723 Stories of abuse coming from people who attended a Baltimore Catholic high school. 604 00:41:56,806 --> 00:41:59,726 The archdiocese now paying those victims. 605 00:41:59,809 --> 00:42:04,397 This all centers on a priest who died in 2001, Father Joseph Maskell. 606 00:42:04,731 --> 00:42:07,984 Now, at least a dozen victims have just received settlements 607 00:42:08,067 --> 00:42:10,111 from the Archdiocese of Baltimore. 608 00:42:10,194 --> 00:42:12,238 Our desire would be that it never happened to begin with 609 00:42:12,321 --> 00:42:14,282 but short of being able to undo that, 610 00:42:14,365 --> 00:42:16,784 uh, the best we can do is try to bring them some healing. 611 00:42:19,829 --> 00:42:21,372 When you're trying to make your life 612 00:42:21,456 --> 00:42:23,124 and your suffering mean something, 613 00:42:23,207 --> 00:42:26,753 but it's after the age of the statute of limitations has been passed, 614 00:42:27,420 --> 00:42:30,965 sometimes the only the thing you see that you have left is mediation... 615 00:42:32,467 --> 00:42:35,261 because you have been told you can't go through the court, 616 00:42:35,344 --> 00:42:37,847 you can stand on the street corner and wave out a sign, 617 00:42:37,930 --> 00:42:41,392 you're not gonna change anything, so at least come in and talk to us. 618 00:42:41,726 --> 00:42:43,519 "We'll offer you something." 619 00:43:05,041 --> 00:43:08,544 I still have a hard time to, um, come here 620 00:43:08,628 --> 00:43:11,005 and be anywhere near the archdiocese. 621 00:43:12,465 --> 00:43:14,258 I hope that you really don't think 622 00:43:14,675 --> 00:43:17,637 that the survivors of Joseph Maskell, 623 00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:19,013 at the ages we are, 624 00:43:19,722 --> 00:43:21,057 are really coming here 625 00:43:21,641 --> 00:43:26,604 for the little bit of compensation that you're giving. 626 00:43:28,231 --> 00:43:30,399 But having the opportunity to say these things, 627 00:43:30,483 --> 00:43:32,276 it's more important to me 628 00:43:32,735 --> 00:43:38,199 than, um, anything else that pertains to the archdiocese. 629 00:43:41,077 --> 00:43:42,411 How this impacted on me? 630 00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:46,082 I live small. 631 00:43:48,334 --> 00:43:50,920 I can't go out beyond my boundaries. 632 00:43:54,340 --> 00:43:57,176 The archdiocese had an opportunity... 633 00:43:58,553 --> 00:44:01,389 back in 1992, '93, '94, 634 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:03,891 to do the right thing 635 00:44:04,642 --> 00:44:08,437 and to help not just me, but, I am sure, many other Catholics, 636 00:44:09,605 --> 00:44:12,692 to know that they were not alone. 637 00:44:13,734 --> 00:44:14,735 And instead... 638 00:44:16,028 --> 00:44:17,697 I still feel very alone. 639 00:44:19,323 --> 00:44:23,369 The fact the Catholic Church has taken on the role as not only being the abuser 640 00:44:23,452 --> 00:44:26,497 but also the savior, it's a dichotomy. They can't explain it. 641 00:44:26,581 --> 00:44:29,000 You can't... You cannot lay those side-by-side. 642 00:44:31,002 --> 00:44:33,671 It can't be them to solve this problem, 643 00:44:34,005 --> 00:44:36,299 it must be the government that intercedes. 644 00:44:37,592 --> 00:44:39,135 Whether you believe in little government or bigger, 645 00:44:39,218 --> 00:44:41,262 you must understand that we do have a role. 646 00:44:42,430 --> 00:44:46,267 We're the ones that make sure that the citizens at large are taken care of. 647 00:44:47,310 --> 00:44:50,646 It is only the government that can step up and hold them accountable. 648 00:45:20,176 --> 00:45:23,054 Come here, you little razzmatazz. Over here. 649 00:45:25,848 --> 00:45:29,185 You little rascal, come on, you got company. We got company. Get... 650 00:45:32,521 --> 00:45:33,731 Come on, you rascal. 651 00:45:34,899 --> 00:45:36,651 Man, if I'm gonna show you that... 652 00:45:37,693 --> 00:45:39,946 That's me, that's my brother. 653 00:45:40,488 --> 00:45:42,865 We were both going to St. Clement's at the time. 654 00:45:43,866 --> 00:45:45,409 Again, I was the golden boy. 655 00:45:46,744 --> 00:45:50,081 You know, that meant my shit didn't stink, uh, is what it meant. 656 00:45:52,166 --> 00:45:53,751 Now, where I made the mistake 657 00:45:54,418 --> 00:45:56,545 was I told some of my friends, 658 00:45:56,629 --> 00:45:58,381 "You gotta watch Father Maskell." 659 00:45:59,090 --> 00:46:01,300 I didn't want the same thing to happen to them. 660 00:46:05,262 --> 00:46:07,056 And he just walked into the classroom. 661 00:46:08,975 --> 00:46:09,976 Came over to me 662 00:46:10,059 --> 00:46:12,812 and he grabbed me by my hair and I'm telling you, 663 00:46:12,895 --> 00:46:14,939 I thought he was gonna pull my hair out my head. 664 00:46:15,064 --> 00:46:16,983 He lifted me right out of that chair... 665 00:46:18,275 --> 00:46:20,653 and said, "I wanna see your ass in the rectory now." 666 00:46:22,446 --> 00:46:24,657 And he says, "Listen, you little motherfucker. 667 00:46:26,242 --> 00:46:27,827 If I hear one more thing... 668 00:46:29,370 --> 00:46:30,955 about you talking about me, 669 00:46:31,288 --> 00:46:33,207 I'm gonna make sure you don't graduate." 670 00:46:36,711 --> 00:46:38,671 He started making my life miserable. 671 00:46:39,422 --> 00:46:42,466 Tossed me off the basketball team, tossed me off the baseball team. 672 00:46:42,550 --> 00:46:44,093 So, I was kicked out of CYO. 673 00:46:45,428 --> 00:46:48,055 I was... I wasn't a golden boy anymore. 674 00:46:51,225 --> 00:46:53,019 I... I now was in over my head. 675 00:46:57,064 --> 00:46:58,733 I had to go home and tell my mother. 676 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,068 I had to go home and tell my mother. 677 00:47:02,737 --> 00:47:06,407 And my mother, she wasn't one to be fooled with, especially with the kids. 678 00:47:06,741 --> 00:47:08,701 You know, "Don't go messing with my kids." 679 00:47:09,493 --> 00:47:11,078 And this is for a fact, 680 00:47:11,912 --> 00:47:14,498 I know, in May of '67, 681 00:47:15,332 --> 00:47:18,002 the Archdiocese of Baltimore became aware 682 00:47:18,627 --> 00:47:20,254 they had a sickie on their hands... 683 00:47:22,256 --> 00:47:25,718 because my mother went down to the archdiocese, 684 00:47:26,427 --> 00:47:27,428 straight to the top. 685 00:47:29,972 --> 00:47:33,851 "Father Maskell is abusing my eighth grade son." 686 00:47:37,396 --> 00:47:38,939 A day or two later 687 00:47:39,023 --> 00:47:42,401 I get a phone call from the pastor of St. Clement's, Father Collopy. 688 00:47:43,194 --> 00:47:45,196 And I can remember this conversation. 689 00:47:45,738 --> 00:47:49,492 He got on the phone and said, "Charlie, listen. I'm just calling. 690 00:47:49,575 --> 00:47:51,077 You're back in the CYO. 691 00:47:51,660 --> 00:47:53,496 You're back on the baseball team. 692 00:47:53,954 --> 00:47:56,707 Father Maskell is no longer here at St. Clements, 693 00:47:57,124 --> 00:47:58,334 he's been transferred." 694 00:48:02,129 --> 00:48:04,507 So, they transferred Maskell to Keough. 695 00:48:09,553 --> 00:48:13,516 So, I wanted to tell you a little bit about Charles Franz. 696 00:48:13,599 --> 00:48:16,018 You know who that is? Mm, say. Tell me. 697 00:48:16,102 --> 00:48:18,687 He was a boy at St. Clement's, Maskell was abusing him. 698 00:48:18,771 --> 00:48:21,023 Okay. So, he went home and he told his mom 699 00:48:21,107 --> 00:48:26,320 and says, "I know in May of 1967, my mom went down to the archdiocese and..." 700 00:48:26,403 --> 00:48:27,988 -1967? Yeah. 701 00:48:28,072 --> 00:48:30,825 That it led to disciplinary action on Maskell, 702 00:48:30,908 --> 00:48:33,828 and Maskell being sent from St. Clement's to Archbishop Keough. 703 00:48:33,911 --> 00:48:37,623 Wow. And then particularly relevant to you 704 00:48:37,706 --> 00:48:42,461 is something Charles told us happened in the 1990s. 705 00:48:46,006 --> 00:48:48,592 I'll tell you the story in the '90s. 706 00:48:50,845 --> 00:48:52,138 I was a practicing dentist. 707 00:48:53,848 --> 00:48:56,392 One day, a lady comes in as a patient. 708 00:48:58,936 --> 00:49:01,647 She says, "The archdiocese is trying to get a hold of you." 709 00:49:01,730 --> 00:49:02,731 I said, "What?" 710 00:49:03,858 --> 00:49:06,944 Evidently, there was a couple ladies from Keough 711 00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:10,239 who were suing the Catholic Church. 712 00:49:13,576 --> 00:49:15,995 And so we arranged a meeting 713 00:49:16,787 --> 00:49:18,330 and we met at my office. 714 00:49:19,206 --> 00:49:20,791 And it was myself and my wife... 715 00:49:21,834 --> 00:49:23,711 two canon lawyers, 716 00:49:24,837 --> 00:49:28,215 plus a priest, Monsignor Malooly. 717 00:49:30,342 --> 00:49:33,721 He started off with this, he said, "I appreciate you meeting with us. 718 00:49:34,054 --> 00:49:35,848 Let me tell you how important this is. 719 00:49:37,725 --> 00:49:39,685 If Archbishop Keeler 720 00:49:40,311 --> 00:49:41,562 was not in Rome... 721 00:49:42,897 --> 00:49:45,816 he'd be here. He'd be here tonight." 722 00:49:48,068 --> 00:49:51,780 And we had... I bet you it was a two, two-and-a-half-hour conversation 723 00:49:52,907 --> 00:49:54,825 about Father Maskell. 724 00:49:55,910 --> 00:49:58,495 I hate to say Father 'cause he really wasn't a father. 725 00:49:59,538 --> 00:50:02,124 You know, I... And they were very interested in the story 726 00:50:02,208 --> 00:50:05,419 and I told them about Maskell being transferred, and they knew it all. 727 00:50:05,753 --> 00:50:06,795 They knew it all. 728 00:50:08,047 --> 00:50:10,299 And then at the end... 729 00:50:12,968 --> 00:50:16,222 Monsignor Malooly says to me... 730 00:50:17,348 --> 00:50:18,933 "Well, what do you want, Charlie?" 731 00:50:19,767 --> 00:50:21,060 I said, "Excuse me, Father?" 732 00:50:21,769 --> 00:50:24,563 He said, "What do you want? You want a boat?" 733 00:50:27,900 --> 00:50:29,026 "Do I want a boat? 734 00:50:31,070 --> 00:50:33,948 No, I don't want a boat. In fact, I got three boats." 735 00:50:34,573 --> 00:50:35,950 'Cause I had three boats. Heh. 736 00:50:36,992 --> 00:50:40,204 And then I said, "Father, I didn't ask you to come here. 737 00:50:41,956 --> 00:50:44,833 You asked me to come here. You know, I... I... 738 00:50:45,334 --> 00:50:49,171 I didn't know anything about this. I don't want a boat. I'll tell you what. 739 00:50:50,005 --> 00:50:51,048 What I would... 740 00:50:52,967 --> 00:50:56,053 Would like to see, just do what's right. 741 00:50:57,137 --> 00:50:58,389 Just do what's right." 742 00:51:00,349 --> 00:51:03,644 We left, with you know, "Perhaps we'll get together again," and... 743 00:51:04,228 --> 00:51:06,021 And I never heard from him again. 744 00:51:07,523 --> 00:51:10,025 Un-freaking-believable. 745 00:51:14,571 --> 00:51:16,615 This Monsignor Malooly... 746 00:51:19,368 --> 00:51:20,911 back in '93, 747 00:51:21,704 --> 00:51:26,542 when the family and the friends sent out letters to everybody anonymously, 748 00:51:26,625 --> 00:51:28,419 um, put an ad in a paper. 749 00:51:29,378 --> 00:51:34,800 Well, one of the letters that came through was a letter from the archdiocese. 750 00:51:35,843 --> 00:51:38,304 "To the extent you obtain any information, 751 00:51:38,387 --> 00:51:41,640 it is my sincere hope that you will advise me 752 00:51:41,724 --> 00:51:44,852 so that appropriate action may be taken by the archdiocese 753 00:51:44,935 --> 00:51:47,771 to protect individuals from potential harm." 754 00:51:49,732 --> 00:51:52,318 From Monsignor Francis Malooly. 755 00:51:53,485 --> 00:51:55,529 That was the guy who wrote that letter? 756 00:51:57,573 --> 00:51:58,490 Wow. 757 00:51:59,992 --> 00:52:01,660 Those fuckers! 758 00:52:02,703 --> 00:52:04,288 My God! 759 00:52:05,122 --> 00:52:08,167 See, see how do you...? I... 760 00:52:13,464 --> 00:52:15,090 I don't know Charles... 761 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,012 but he is a legitimate corroboration for me. 762 00:52:22,348 --> 00:52:23,849 I had the letters from 763 00:52:24,433 --> 00:52:28,771 Richard Way saying, you know, "We can't corroborate any of this. 764 00:52:28,854 --> 00:52:30,564 It's all about corroboration." 765 00:52:31,482 --> 00:52:34,693 Corroboration, corroboration, corroboration. 766 00:52:36,278 --> 00:52:39,948 "Have somebody come forward who says that they know that this really happened." 767 00:52:44,244 --> 00:52:45,829 And they had somebody right there. 768 00:52:48,457 --> 00:52:49,291 Amazing. 769 00:53:07,768 --> 00:53:11,188 We've asked for the archdiocese to participate, to go on camera 770 00:53:11,271 --> 00:53:13,732 and give us their version of the story of Maskell. 771 00:53:13,816 --> 00:53:18,237 Every time, they denied something on camera and, uh... 772 00:53:18,570 --> 00:53:20,322 And so what they did agree to 773 00:53:20,406 --> 00:53:25,077 was to give us written responses to written... 774 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:26,161 Questions. 775 00:53:26,662 --> 00:53:29,832 So, we finally got the responses from them. 776 00:53:29,915 --> 00:53:33,377 Well, before we... Let me preface this. Am I gonna be pissed off here? 777 00:53:33,836 --> 00:53:34,670 I don't know. 778 00:53:35,129 --> 00:53:36,922 Okay, okay. 779 00:53:39,633 --> 00:53:42,928 So, we asked them questions. Okay. 780 00:53:43,011 --> 00:53:46,890 So, I'll read them to you as the numbers, and then I'll read you the answers. 781 00:53:46,974 --> 00:53:48,892 Okay. So, question number one. 782 00:53:50,811 --> 00:53:53,981 "Was Jane Doe, Jean Wehner, the first person to come forward 783 00:53:54,064 --> 00:53:57,234 with allegations of abuse against Father Maskell?" 784 00:53:59,695 --> 00:54:02,072 The archdiocese's answer: "Yes. 785 00:54:02,156 --> 00:54:06,243 Archdiocesan files do not reflect any kind of abuse allegation against Maskell 786 00:54:06,326 --> 00:54:09,329 before Jane Doe came forward in 1992." 787 00:54:12,207 --> 00:54:13,125 That's a shame. 788 00:54:13,709 --> 00:54:14,543 That's a shame. 789 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,003 Question number two. 790 00:54:17,421 --> 00:54:22,092 "How and when did the Archdiocese first hear allegations of abuse 791 00:54:22,176 --> 00:54:23,802 against Father Maskell?" 792 00:54:24,678 --> 00:54:26,388 The archdiocese's answer: 793 00:54:27,097 --> 00:54:28,974 "See answer to number one." 794 00:54:29,892 --> 00:54:30,767 Hmm. 795 00:54:33,228 --> 00:54:34,062 They're lying. 796 00:54:35,272 --> 00:54:36,190 They're lying. 797 00:54:36,273 --> 00:54:38,567 Of course there was allegations. 798 00:54:40,068 --> 00:54:41,320 Question number three. 799 00:54:42,070 --> 00:54:48,076 "Were any disciplinary interventions made against Father Maskell prior to 1992?" 800 00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:53,081 The archdiocese's answer: "No." 801 00:54:53,999 --> 00:54:55,334 That's it, just "no"? 802 00:54:58,754 --> 00:55:00,130 This is disgusting. 803 00:55:01,632 --> 00:55:02,841 This is disgusting. 804 00:55:05,302 --> 00:55:08,138 He's saying nothing happened before me, 805 00:55:08,847 --> 00:55:10,349 so... And Charles is saying, 806 00:55:10,432 --> 00:55:12,059 "Oh, no, definitely, it did." 807 00:55:14,353 --> 00:55:18,565 If you start saying things like, "That never happened." 808 00:55:20,192 --> 00:55:22,528 What you're calling me is a liar. 809 00:55:25,405 --> 00:55:27,616 How about the meeting with Malooly? 810 00:55:28,784 --> 00:55:29,952 What did that concern? 811 00:55:33,664 --> 00:55:35,123 I'd love to hear the answer. 812 00:55:37,626 --> 00:55:41,129 They knew my mother contacted the Archdiocese of Baltimore. 813 00:55:42,047 --> 00:55:45,425 They knew why Maskell was asked to leave St. Clement's 814 00:55:45,509 --> 00:55:49,012 in May of '67 and put at Keough. 815 00:55:49,721 --> 00:55:50,597 They knew that. 816 00:55:53,850 --> 00:55:57,896 I guess that, you know, buddy, there are lies and there are lies, okay? 817 00:55:58,522 --> 00:56:00,232 You wanna deal with that bullshit, 818 00:56:00,983 --> 00:56:03,944 you might be able to get away with it, okay? 819 00:56:04,027 --> 00:56:04,945 And that's a lie. 820 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:07,114 Man. 821 00:56:08,991 --> 00:56:10,117 I'm telling you... 822 00:56:11,535 --> 00:56:15,455 and especially right after I finished up this damn mediation 823 00:56:15,914 --> 00:56:19,626 and they pick and pull with every little tiny penny... 824 00:56:19,710 --> 00:56:21,837 And they act like what you went through, 825 00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,007 they care about, and they could give two shits, really. 826 00:56:25,799 --> 00:56:27,509 And some part of this 827 00:56:27,593 --> 00:56:32,306 is really squelching people's anger, 828 00:56:32,389 --> 00:56:34,850 and people's righteous anger, 829 00:56:34,933 --> 00:56:38,520 and people's need for you to make things public 830 00:56:38,604 --> 00:56:40,397 and stop acting like it's... 831 00:56:43,817 --> 00:56:46,361 That... That we're invisible. We're not invisible. 832 00:57:25,275 --> 00:57:26,401 Okay, here's the letter. 833 00:57:27,235 --> 00:57:29,363 "Dear Seton Keough Alumnae and Friends, 834 00:57:29,696 --> 00:57:32,950 it is with a heavy heart that I sit and write this November message. 835 00:57:33,533 --> 00:57:37,621 As I am sure you have heard, Seton Keough will be closing its doors in June." 836 00:57:40,374 --> 00:57:42,417 Many Keough graduates 837 00:57:42,501 --> 00:57:45,712 are glad to see the circle closed, the doors shut. 838 00:57:47,130 --> 00:57:49,091 This piece of history destroyed. 839 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:58,225 I wasn't particularly a conspiracy theorist, as I think of it, at first. 840 00:57:58,308 --> 00:58:00,435 I was just interested in who hurt Cathy. 841 00:58:01,478 --> 00:58:06,817 But the abuse angle of this just took off running and grew and grew and grew. 842 00:58:08,318 --> 00:58:10,821 I share the pain of my classmates, 843 00:58:10,904 --> 00:58:13,782 who lived through some horrendous years. 844 00:58:16,618 --> 00:58:18,745 At night when I can't sleep and I... 845 00:58:18,829 --> 00:58:22,499 I say, "If I think about this a little harder, I can figure this out," 846 00:58:22,582 --> 00:58:23,667 um, at 3 a.m. 847 00:58:25,460 --> 00:58:26,837 It seems like 848 00:58:27,587 --> 00:58:32,384 even when I try to look at her murder as the work of a random lone wolf, 849 00:58:33,051 --> 00:58:35,345 the abuse issues always come back in. 850 00:58:48,066 --> 00:58:49,443 How are you? 851 00:58:49,985 --> 00:58:51,903 I'm so happy to see you. 852 00:58:52,487 --> 00:58:56,408 Jane Doe was led to believe that she was the only one. 853 00:58:57,659 --> 00:59:01,288 If Maskell had been nailed 854 00:59:01,705 --> 00:59:05,292 the first time the abuse was reported, 855 00:59:05,834 --> 00:59:10,839 then how do we even know how many people could have been saved? 856 00:59:11,423 --> 00:59:14,259 I personally know of 35 names 857 00:59:14,509 --> 00:59:17,554 of abuse victims of Joseph Maskell. 858 00:59:17,929 --> 00:59:20,015 Some aren't even living anymore. 859 00:59:20,390 --> 00:59:24,686 There were suicides, alcoholism, drug addiction. 860 00:59:28,023 --> 00:59:31,693 And what happened to them set their fate. 861 00:59:33,862 --> 00:59:35,030 If somebody... 862 00:59:36,198 --> 00:59:37,491 had listened... 863 00:59:39,367 --> 00:59:42,579 how many other lives could've been saved? 864 00:59:49,461 --> 00:59:50,921 Cathy would be here. 865 00:59:55,675 --> 00:59:57,385 She would still be here. 866 01:00:08,021 --> 01:00:10,482 "Some people meet death With open arms 867 01:00:11,608 --> 01:00:13,777 And thank God their time has come 868 01:00:14,694 --> 01:00:17,531 Others beg to be spared For just one more day 869 01:00:18,365 --> 01:00:20,283 Saying there's much to be done 870 01:00:22,661 --> 01:00:26,706 But if we, before performing an act Would stop and think of death 871 01:00:28,708 --> 01:00:33,672 Of death, of judgment And of all such things 872 01:00:35,423 --> 01:00:37,509 I'm sure we would do our best 873 01:00:39,636 --> 01:00:43,306 So that when our time comes, we may say: 874 01:00:45,183 --> 01:00:47,394 'Take me, Lord, without delay'" 875 01:00:51,064 --> 01:00:52,023 She was 16... 876 01:00:53,191 --> 01:00:54,484 when she wrote that poem. 877 01:00:57,529 --> 01:00:58,989 Cathy's life, 878 01:00:59,573 --> 01:01:01,449 Cathy's death and this abuse... 879 01:01:02,826 --> 01:01:04,619 this is all connected. 880 01:01:07,956 --> 01:01:10,625 These girls have lived with this all of their life. 881 01:01:11,459 --> 01:01:14,296 I've lived with the loss of... Of... 882 01:01:15,130 --> 01:01:18,842 My best friend, my sister, all my life and I will carry that. 883 01:01:19,217 --> 01:01:21,678 But they also have pain they are carrying. 884 01:01:23,096 --> 01:01:25,724 And there needs to be a world, 885 01:01:25,807 --> 01:01:28,059 there needs to be a place that we live in, 886 01:01:28,143 --> 01:01:31,062 where people wanna see something done about that. 887 01:01:36,568 --> 01:01:40,030 Whoever murdered her has gotten away with it, 888 01:01:41,448 --> 01:01:42,282 and... 889 01:01:44,367 --> 01:01:48,371 she's never gotten a bit of justice. 890 01:01:50,957 --> 01:01:53,835 It has been almost 50 years, 891 01:01:54,211 --> 01:01:56,129 since Cathy's murder, 892 01:01:57,214 --> 01:02:00,008 but I do think it'll be solved. 893 01:02:02,385 --> 01:02:03,511 I won't rest. 894 01:02:04,763 --> 01:02:05,764 Mm-mm. 895 01:02:10,810 --> 01:02:12,979 Can we find justice? 896 01:02:14,689 --> 01:02:18,818 Can justice just be acknowledged from the community 897 01:02:18,902 --> 01:02:21,905 instead of waiting for the stamp of approval 898 01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:27,118 from the systems that we usually get it from? 899 01:02:29,287 --> 01:02:31,373 That's what the state is supposed to be doing. 900 01:02:32,082 --> 01:02:33,792 We can't have you be un-robbed... 901 01:02:34,876 --> 01:02:38,213 or un-raped or un-shot. 902 01:02:38,797 --> 01:02:40,382 We can't un-ring those bells. 903 01:02:41,424 --> 01:02:43,593 What we can do is hold people accountable. 904 01:02:58,608 --> 01:03:00,568 For many, many, many years, 905 01:03:01,444 --> 01:03:02,862 I didn't remember anything, 906 01:03:03,446 --> 01:03:07,742 and one of the first things that I started remembering was Cathy Cesnik. 907 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,415 This woman, she died 908 01:03:13,498 --> 01:03:16,126 to help stop what was going on over there. 909 01:03:18,336 --> 01:03:19,713 And because of the 910 01:03:19,796 --> 01:03:23,675 Justice for Cathy group, because of Cathy's sister, 911 01:03:24,384 --> 01:03:28,179 um, having the courage to come into this 912 01:03:28,263 --> 01:03:32,600 to ask questions and to kind of find her own peace, 913 01:03:34,019 --> 01:03:37,105 I'm finding another layer of that closure 914 01:03:37,522 --> 01:03:39,941 where I can say, "Okay." 915 01:03:42,652 --> 01:03:45,030 You can't bury the truth so deep it doesn't come up. 916 01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:55,665 I'm ready. 917 01:04:03,423 --> 01:04:07,010 If I could speak for myself and maybe others, 918 01:04:08,303 --> 01:04:09,929 this is the opportunity. 919 01:04:11,639 --> 01:04:13,224 It's like a little crack... 920 01:04:14,351 --> 01:04:18,188 and I personally feel that what I'm doing, 921 01:04:18,646 --> 01:04:21,900 facing my fear, is coming up to the crack and saying, 922 01:04:21,983 --> 01:04:25,695 "Hello, do you know we're here? 923 01:04:26,112 --> 01:04:28,031 Is anyone out there?" 924 01:04:32,494 --> 01:04:34,120 And it's still silent. 925 01:04:35,413 --> 01:04:36,873 But we're hearing each other... 926 01:04:38,041 --> 01:04:40,168 because we're all coming up to the crack. 927 01:04:41,294 --> 01:04:43,254 And what's happening is, 928 01:04:43,338 --> 01:04:45,173 is we're bumping into each other, 929 01:04:45,715 --> 01:04:47,092 coming to the crack. 930 01:04:48,468 --> 01:04:52,013 And before you know it, the pressure of that voice 931 01:04:53,139 --> 01:04:57,936 seeping through the crack is going to shatter it.