1 00:00:13,212 --> 00:00:14,346 I'm craig melvin 2 00:00:14,348 --> 00:00:18,150 And this is "dateline: Secrets uncovered". 3 00:00:18,152 --> 00:00:20,886 - Something wasn't right at her house. 4 00:00:20,888 --> 00:00:24,756 I saw a lot of police cars. 5 00:00:24,758 --> 00:00:27,159 That woman was a fighter. 6 00:00:27,161 --> 00:00:29,594 She would never leave her daughters. 7 00:00:29,596 --> 00:00:33,331 She would never do it. - Michele ran the home. 8 00:00:33,333 --> 00:00:34,499 - She was very proud about 9 00:00:34,501 --> 00:00:36,701 How she was able to make ends meet. 10 00:00:36,703 --> 00:00:38,837 - Lloyd helped with the kids. 11 00:00:38,839 --> 00:00:41,239 - They're wonderful girls. They're amazing. 12 00:00:41,241 --> 00:00:43,342 - The end came much too soon. 13 00:00:46,447 --> 00:00:49,848 - There appeared to be a body hanging from a banister. 14 00:00:49,850 --> 00:00:51,316 From first look, it would appear as though 15 00:00:51,318 --> 00:00:52,551 It was a suicide. 16 00:00:52,553 --> 00:00:54,719 - But then they looked closer. 17 00:00:54,721 --> 00:00:56,721 - It appeared that there was a struggle. 18 00:00:56,723 --> 00:00:58,657 My gut was telling me there's something wrong here. 19 00:00:58,659 --> 00:01:00,859 - Did someone want michele dead? 20 00:01:00,861 --> 00:01:03,529 Was someone else willing to help? 21 00:01:03,531 --> 00:01:05,063 - At that point, we're shell shocked. 22 00:01:05,065 --> 00:01:07,733 - A bond forged in blood. 23 00:01:09,470 --> 00:01:11,236 - We call it the lie and cry conversation. 24 00:01:11,238 --> 00:01:13,138 - Betrayed by blood. 25 00:01:13,140 --> 00:01:14,206 - What are you hoping for? 26 00:01:14,208 --> 00:01:16,208 - Some conversation between the two of them 27 00:01:16,210 --> 00:01:17,409 About the death. 28 00:01:17,411 --> 00:01:19,544 - We had an investigator look at the video surveillance 29 00:01:19,546 --> 00:01:21,780 And he goes, "I don't like what I'm seeing." 30 00:01:21,782 --> 00:01:23,949 - You're theorizing the darkest scenario? 31 00:01:23,951 --> 00:01:27,286 - Yes, we are. Evil. 32 00:01:27,288 --> 00:01:35,127 ♪♪ 33 00:01:35,129 --> 00:01:38,830 - Hello and welcome to "dateline: Secrets uncovered". 34 00:01:38,832 --> 00:01:41,834 High school sweethearts michele and lloyd neurauter 35 00:01:41,836 --> 00:01:44,069 Were devoted to their three daughters. 36 00:01:44,071 --> 00:01:46,738 Michele home schooled the girls. 37 00:01:46,740 --> 00:01:49,841 Lloyd took them to dance class. 38 00:01:49,843 --> 00:01:51,043 When the couple divorced, 39 00:01:51,045 --> 00:01:53,445 The split took a toll on everyone 40 00:01:53,447 --> 00:01:57,282 And soon someone's loyalty would be tested. 41 00:01:57,284 --> 00:02:00,519 Every family has secrets but the betrayal 42 00:02:00,521 --> 00:02:05,858 At the center of this mystery seemed too twisted to be true. 43 00:02:06,894 --> 00:02:08,727 Except that it was. 44 00:02:08,729 --> 00:02:12,331 Here's dennis murphy with "the ultimatum". 45 00:02:15,169 --> 00:02:17,870 - The long road to prima ballerina, 46 00:02:17,872 --> 00:02:22,007 The dreams of thunderous bravos, the cascade of roses 47 00:02:22,009 --> 00:02:23,842 Begins for the youngest of dancers 48 00:02:23,844 --> 00:02:26,778 In a ballet school of tutu'd 10-year-olds. 49 00:02:26,780 --> 00:02:28,914 Stretching, stressing. 50 00:02:28,916 --> 00:02:31,216 - It's very disciplined. 51 00:02:31,218 --> 00:02:33,451 - An athletic discipline of concentration 52 00:02:33,453 --> 00:02:35,187 And body control. 53 00:02:35,189 --> 00:02:37,455 Learning poise under pressure. 54 00:02:37,457 --> 00:02:40,091 - It took a lot, um, especially when we were young, 55 00:02:40,093 --> 00:02:44,029 To stick with it, but it was worth it. 56 00:02:44,031 --> 00:02:46,398 - A ballet academy in upstate new york 57 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,767 Was where amina raj got to know her friend 58 00:02:48,769 --> 00:02:50,235 Karrie neurauter. 59 00:02:50,237 --> 00:02:51,970 - I met karrie when she was eight. 60 00:02:51,972 --> 00:02:56,175 She was very sweet, very bubbly personality. 61 00:02:56,177 --> 00:02:57,876 - Both of them were girly girls 62 00:02:57,878 --> 00:03:00,445 But wanted to grow up to be like their dads. 63 00:03:00,447 --> 00:03:02,180 - Our dads were both engineers, 64 00:03:02,182 --> 00:03:04,583 So we were both going to become engineers 65 00:03:04,585 --> 00:03:07,352 And be professional ballerinas on the side. 66 00:03:07,354 --> 00:03:08,520 - And everyone could see that 67 00:03:08,522 --> 00:03:10,822 Karrie was very close to her dad, 68 00:03:10,824 --> 00:03:12,257 Lloyd neurauter. 69 00:03:12,259 --> 00:03:14,726 Every Saturday, he'd not only drive his daughter 70 00:03:14,728 --> 00:03:18,197 To class in corning, new york, he'd stay to help out. 71 00:03:18,199 --> 00:03:20,966 - He was the only father there that was bringing the kids 72 00:03:20,968 --> 00:03:22,701 In the morning at that time. 73 00:03:22,703 --> 00:03:25,503 - Mina's mom, cynthia, would see him on those saturdays 74 00:03:25,505 --> 00:03:27,205 But rarely his wife. 75 00:03:27,207 --> 00:03:29,808 - Instead of doing the children's hair at home, 76 00:03:29,810 --> 00:03:31,276 He would always sort of bring them there 77 00:03:31,278 --> 00:03:36,215 And brush their hair out a-and put these buns together, um-- 78 00:03:36,217 --> 00:03:38,316 - With some skill and art? - Um, yes. 79 00:03:38,318 --> 00:03:40,819 And-and h-he definitely enjoyed the admiration 80 00:03:40,821 --> 00:03:43,755 Of the other mothers around him. 81 00:03:43,757 --> 00:03:46,758 - As their daughters rehearsed for the annual "nutcracker", 82 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,161 Cynthia and another friend, rose coluccio, 83 00:03:49,163 --> 00:03:51,162 Became friendly with lloyd. 84 00:03:51,164 --> 00:03:53,898 - Lloyd was, I would say, eccentric. 85 00:03:53,900 --> 00:03:57,002 Always, um, the center of attention. 86 00:03:57,004 --> 00:03:59,971 - Of course, we eventually asked about his wife 87 00:03:59,973 --> 00:04:04,743 And he said that Saturday was really her days off. 88 00:04:04,745 --> 00:04:07,846 - Lloyd's wife michele had a full plate of her own. 89 00:04:07,848 --> 00:04:10,115 She had a master's degree in literature 90 00:04:10,117 --> 00:04:13,852 But chose to be a full time mom, home schooling their kids 91 00:04:13,854 --> 00:04:16,655 And taking an active role in charity work. 92 00:04:16,657 --> 00:04:18,523 Here she is making thanksgiving dinner 93 00:04:18,525 --> 00:04:20,792 For the needy at their local church. 94 00:04:20,794 --> 00:04:24,729 - It would be really odd to have thanksgiving at home, 95 00:04:24,731 --> 00:04:26,531 Just us, and not be here. 96 00:04:26,533 --> 00:04:29,467 Thanksgiving is celebrating with the community, 97 00:04:29,469 --> 00:04:31,036 Giving back. 98 00:04:31,038 --> 00:04:33,205 - Michele had met lloyd in high school. 99 00:04:33,207 --> 00:04:35,607 Her mom, jeanne, remembers a teenaged boy 100 00:04:35,609 --> 00:04:38,109 Who was smitten from the first date. 101 00:04:38,111 --> 00:04:39,878 - I think she thought he was intelligent, 102 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,547 And she could have intelligent conversations with him. 103 00:04:42,549 --> 00:04:44,215 - So, maybe a peg above the other kids in the schoolyard 104 00:04:44,217 --> 00:04:46,251 Or her circle? - Yes. Yes. 105 00:04:46,253 --> 00:04:47,352 - The high school sweethearts 106 00:04:47,354 --> 00:04:49,888 Married when michele was just 20. 107 00:04:49,890 --> 00:04:52,557 They'd later settled into a farmhouse in upstate new york 108 00:04:52,559 --> 00:04:55,760 And had three girls, karrie the middle child. 109 00:04:55,762 --> 00:04:58,096 Michele's younger sister, also named karrie, 110 00:04:58,098 --> 00:05:00,031 Admired her so much. 111 00:05:00,033 --> 00:05:01,500 - Tell me about your sister as a mom. 112 00:05:01,502 --> 00:05:05,503 - She always, like, wanted the best for her girls. 113 00:05:05,505 --> 00:05:07,372 She was always very supportive 114 00:05:07,374 --> 00:05:10,141 Because, of course, when I had children, 115 00:05:10,143 --> 00:05:12,978 I asked her all my questions and looked up to her. 116 00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:14,846 I always looked up to her. 117 00:05:14,848 --> 00:05:17,349 - Though they lived close apart, michele's sister 118 00:05:17,351 --> 00:05:19,884 And her husband were close with the nieces. 119 00:05:19,886 --> 00:05:23,789 - The oldest one really bonded with kevin 120 00:05:23,791 --> 00:05:28,327 And karrie and I very much bonded. 121 00:05:28,329 --> 00:05:29,894 - But as with so many people, 122 00:05:29,896 --> 00:05:32,697 The neurauter family ran into lean times, 123 00:05:32,699 --> 00:05:35,667 Diminished prospects during the great recession. 124 00:05:35,669 --> 00:05:39,271 Lloyd moved out of state to find work as an engineer. 125 00:05:39,273 --> 00:05:43,007 - What happened is, uh-- lloyd-- it was a tough time 126 00:05:43,009 --> 00:05:44,976 In corning, new york 127 00:05:44,978 --> 00:05:47,879 And he took a job in new jersey. 128 00:05:47,881 --> 00:05:49,514 - Michele stayed behind with the girls 129 00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:51,549 Out in the country in corning, 130 00:05:51,551 --> 00:05:54,619 But the separation put a strain on the marriage. 131 00:05:54,621 --> 00:05:57,956 And in time, michele and lloyd divorced. 132 00:05:57,958 --> 00:05:59,958 - She was always positive, 133 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:01,827 Gonna make the most of everything. 134 00:06:01,829 --> 00:06:03,562 And then one day out of the blue, 135 00:06:03,564 --> 00:06:05,230 She called me and said, "we're divorced." 136 00:06:05,232 --> 00:06:06,064 I was like, okay. 137 00:06:06,066 --> 00:06:07,499 - Right. It was very random. 138 00:06:07,501 --> 00:06:09,768 - After the divorce, michele sold the farm 139 00:06:09,770 --> 00:06:11,269 And the kids split up. 140 00:06:11,271 --> 00:06:13,905 The oldest went to live with her dad in new jersey 141 00:06:13,907 --> 00:06:15,307 While karrie and the youngest daughter 142 00:06:15,309 --> 00:06:18,443 Stayed in corning with mom in a new house. 143 00:06:18,445 --> 00:06:21,112 But the divorce was hard on everyone. 144 00:06:21,114 --> 00:06:23,815 Karrie and her mom sometimes butted heads. 145 00:06:23,817 --> 00:06:25,717 The arguments could get heated. 146 00:06:25,719 --> 00:06:28,086 - The issue was living with her mother, 147 00:06:28,088 --> 00:06:29,454 Finishing high school, 148 00:06:29,456 --> 00:06:32,124 But it got more and more strained as the years -- 149 00:06:32,126 --> 00:06:34,392 As she approached her senior year. 150 00:06:34,394 --> 00:06:38,897 - By late August 2017, karrie, the one-time ballerina, 151 00:06:38,899 --> 00:06:40,632 Had left home and was a sophomore 152 00:06:40,634 --> 00:06:42,934 At rit in rochester. 153 00:06:42,936 --> 00:06:46,404 Her younger sisters still lived with their mom. 154 00:06:46,406 --> 00:06:49,040 It seemed like a typical Monday afternoon 155 00:06:49,042 --> 00:06:50,942 When a family friend came by the house 156 00:06:50,944 --> 00:06:53,678 To pick up the youngest for swim practice. 157 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,147 But something looked very wrong. 158 00:06:56,149 --> 00:06:57,416 He called 911. 159 00:07:01,621 --> 00:07:04,389 - The friend said he glimpsed a shadowy female figure 160 00:07:04,391 --> 00:07:06,124 On the stairway. 161 00:07:10,363 --> 00:07:13,231 - Something very dark had happened in that house. 162 00:07:13,233 --> 00:07:15,099 And when the curtain was pulled back, 163 00:07:15,101 --> 00:07:17,735 It would reveal a monstrous story 164 00:07:17,737 --> 00:07:20,171 Like something out of a greek tragedy 165 00:07:20,173 --> 00:07:22,774 With an ending no one could fathom. 166 00:07:22,776 --> 00:07:24,743 - This is absolutely ghoulish. - Yeah. 167 00:07:26,713 --> 00:07:28,046 - Coming up... 168 00:07:28,048 --> 00:07:30,014 - There appeared to be a body hanging inside the door 169 00:07:30,016 --> 00:07:32,851 About 15 to 20 feet, hanging from a banister. 170 00:07:32,853 --> 00:07:33,852 - This is, as they say, 171 00:07:33,854 --> 00:07:35,587 A house that's known to law enforcement? 172 00:07:35,589 --> 00:07:38,056 - Yes. - And somebody was missing. 173 00:07:38,058 --> 00:07:39,591 - No 14-year-old was discovered. 174 00:07:39,593 --> 00:07:40,792 - So, where is this child? 175 00:07:40,794 --> 00:07:42,560 - That was one of the first concerns. 176 00:07:42,562 --> 00:07:45,764 - When "dateline: Secrets uncovered" continues. 177 00:07:54,741 --> 00:07:57,542 - August 28, 2017. 178 00:07:57,544 --> 00:08:00,411 Police officers responded to the home of divorced mom 179 00:08:00,413 --> 00:08:01,946 Michele neurauter. 180 00:08:01,948 --> 00:08:06,284 A friend of hers had called 911 to report a disturbing sight. 181 00:08:06,286 --> 00:08:08,486 - There appeared to be a body hanging inside the door 182 00:08:08,488 --> 00:08:11,756 About 15 to 20 feet, hanging from a banister. 183 00:08:11,758 --> 00:08:13,825 - Corning police chief, jeff spalding says 184 00:08:13,827 --> 00:08:16,494 His officers got in and found the body. 185 00:08:16,496 --> 00:08:19,097 A woman with a rope tied around her neck. 186 00:08:19,099 --> 00:08:20,365 It was michele. 187 00:08:20,367 --> 00:08:23,301 - Apparently, a suicide? - Uh, from first look, yes, 188 00:08:23,303 --> 00:08:24,836 It would appear as though it was a suicide. 189 00:08:24,838 --> 00:08:27,405 - No reason to think not, huh? - No. 190 00:08:27,407 --> 00:08:29,040 - Officers searched the home. 191 00:08:29,042 --> 00:08:32,511 They found no suicide note and the house was empty. 192 00:08:32,513 --> 00:08:34,746 Daughter karrie was away at college, 193 00:08:34,748 --> 00:08:36,781 But the youngest, who lived there with michele, 194 00:08:36,783 --> 00:08:38,650 Was nowhere to be found. 195 00:08:38,652 --> 00:08:40,385 - No 14-year-old was discovered. 196 00:08:40,387 --> 00:08:41,553 - So, where is this child? 197 00:08:41,555 --> 00:08:43,455 - That was one of the first concerns. 198 00:08:43,457 --> 00:08:45,957 - It turned out the youngest was actually with karrie 199 00:08:45,959 --> 00:08:48,927 At school in rochester 100 miles away. 200 00:08:48,929 --> 00:08:51,396 Police learned that when karrie called them herself 201 00:08:51,398 --> 00:08:53,798 After a friend gave her the shocking news. 202 00:09:05,345 --> 00:09:08,246 - Karrie told police she had stopped by the house that night. 203 00:09:13,420 --> 00:09:14,953 - In karrie's words, they had a fight, 204 00:09:14,955 --> 00:09:17,889 Her mom, um, went yelling and screaming. 205 00:09:17,891 --> 00:09:20,792 - Karrie told investigators she stormed out of the house, 206 00:09:20,794 --> 00:09:23,094 Taking her teenage sister with her. 207 00:09:23,096 --> 00:09:25,163 Not all that unusual. 208 00:09:25,165 --> 00:09:27,832 Police learned that raised voices in that household 209 00:09:27,834 --> 00:09:29,701 Were sadly routine. 210 00:09:29,703 --> 00:09:32,770 A bad divorce with kids caught in the middle. 211 00:09:32,772 --> 00:09:34,772 This is, as they say, a house that's known to 212 00:09:34,774 --> 00:09:36,140 Law enforcement? - Yes. 213 00:09:36,142 --> 00:09:37,775 - There had been -- over the years been what? 214 00:09:37,777 --> 00:09:39,377 911 calls to that location? 215 00:09:39,379 --> 00:09:42,046 - Uh, probably in a course of two or three years, a dozen-- 216 00:09:42,048 --> 00:09:43,448 A little more than a dozen calls. 217 00:09:43,450 --> 00:09:44,649 - So, chief, I'm thinking even with 218 00:09:44,651 --> 00:09:45,784 This brief history you had, 219 00:09:45,786 --> 00:09:47,852 This fragmentary history of trouble inside the house, 220 00:09:47,854 --> 00:09:49,587 Mother, daughter, something's going on, 221 00:09:49,589 --> 00:09:51,923 It does maybe give you an explanation of 222 00:09:51,925 --> 00:09:55,460 Why she's a death by suicide? - Uh, exactly. 223 00:09:55,462 --> 00:09:57,228 - Investigators also got in touch with 224 00:09:57,230 --> 00:10:00,531 Michele's ex-husband, lloyd, who lived in new jersey. 225 00:10:00,533 --> 00:10:02,300 He was rushing to upstate new york 226 00:10:02,302 --> 00:10:03,868 To be with his daughters. 227 00:10:08,541 --> 00:10:10,341 - Lloyd told the detective by phone 228 00:10:10,343 --> 00:10:13,411 He wasn't completely surprised to hear the news. 229 00:10:13,413 --> 00:10:15,680 He said that despite her cheery demeanor, 230 00:10:15,682 --> 00:10:17,816 Michele had actually contemplated suicide 231 00:10:17,818 --> 00:10:18,984 In the past. 232 00:10:28,728 --> 00:10:31,229 - Police continued to process the scene 233 00:10:31,231 --> 00:10:32,964 While michele's body was taken to 234 00:10:32,966 --> 00:10:35,266 The medical examiner for autopsy. 235 00:10:35,268 --> 00:10:36,467 - What is she finding? 236 00:10:36,469 --> 00:10:39,671 - Uh, the words again consistent with suicide are used. 237 00:10:39,673 --> 00:10:40,872 - In a round of phone calls, 238 00:10:40,874 --> 00:10:42,840 Michele's sister out in california 239 00:10:42,842 --> 00:10:45,243 Got the news about the suicide. 240 00:10:45,245 --> 00:10:46,378 - When you first heard that, 241 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:48,646 Did it make sense in any kind of way to you that... 242 00:10:48,648 --> 00:10:49,714 [sighs] 243 00:10:49,716 --> 00:10:51,316 ...Maybe she's gotten in a bad place and... 244 00:10:51,318 --> 00:10:57,288 - I mean, I knew that she had been fighting with the girls. 245 00:10:57,290 --> 00:11:01,259 I-I really thought, like, maybe she had a bad moment. 246 00:11:01,261 --> 00:11:04,796 - Then she had to relay the awful news to their mom. 247 00:11:04,798 --> 00:11:09,534 - She said michelle died. And I said, "no, she didn't." 248 00:11:09,536 --> 00:11:11,069 I said no -- I said, "no, she didn't, 249 00:11:11,071 --> 00:11:13,471 "that's a lie. Don't say that." 250 00:11:13,473 --> 00:11:16,808 I said don't tell-- don't say that. 251 00:11:16,810 --> 00:11:19,744 - The friends back in corning could hardly take it in. 252 00:11:19,746 --> 00:11:23,147 Michele gone and by her own hand. 253 00:11:23,149 --> 00:11:24,482 - My mom called me. 254 00:11:24,484 --> 00:11:27,218 She didn't want me to see it online 255 00:11:27,220 --> 00:11:30,154 Or on social media before she -- I heard it from her. 256 00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:31,623 - And you went to see her or--? - I did. 257 00:11:31,625 --> 00:11:36,894 I went home. It was so shocking. 258 00:11:36,896 --> 00:11:39,297 - As funeral arrangements began, 259 00:11:39,299 --> 00:11:41,899 Michele's friends were haunted by a request she made 260 00:11:41,901 --> 00:11:44,001 Just months before her death. 261 00:11:44,003 --> 00:11:46,304 - She said "well, promise me that 262 00:11:46,306 --> 00:11:48,506 "if anything ever happens to me 263 00:11:48,508 --> 00:11:51,976 "that you'll look out for my daughters." 264 00:11:51,978 --> 00:11:56,848 And then I reassured her, naively perhaps, 265 00:11:56,850 --> 00:12:01,452 That she was going to live a long life, um-- 266 00:12:01,454 --> 00:12:05,256 But she was pretty persistent, and so, I said okay. 267 00:12:05,258 --> 00:12:07,358 And we left it like that. 268 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,462 - Sorry, she got me with that story. 269 00:12:11,464 --> 00:12:15,099 - But even in their grief, there was confusion and doubt. 270 00:12:15,101 --> 00:12:16,834 The friends thought the michele they saw 271 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:20,205 In her final days was anything but suicidal. 272 00:12:20,207 --> 00:12:23,408 - What were her plans? Was she forward-looking? 273 00:12:23,410 --> 00:12:24,609 - Constantly. 274 00:12:24,611 --> 00:12:26,444 We were always working on what was next. 275 00:12:26,446 --> 00:12:29,247 - That wasn't where she was in her life? 276 00:12:29,249 --> 00:12:30,748 - I would say she's a fighter, right? 277 00:12:30,750 --> 00:12:32,350 That woman was a fighter. 278 00:12:32,352 --> 00:12:33,952 On Saturday morning when the rest of us 279 00:12:33,954 --> 00:12:36,354 Would be lounging around in our sweatpants, 280 00:12:36,356 --> 00:12:38,022 She'd say, "it's a good day. 281 00:12:38,024 --> 00:12:39,524 "we're going to get up, we're going to get dressed, 282 00:12:39,526 --> 00:12:41,826 "and we're going to make the best of it." 283 00:12:41,828 --> 00:12:44,829 - Even if michele were suicidal, they just could not see 284 00:12:44,831 --> 00:12:46,864 Their friend hanging herself like that 285 00:12:46,866 --> 00:12:49,167 In a way that her daughters could find her. 286 00:12:49,169 --> 00:12:55,106 - I started googling means that females use for suicide 287 00:12:55,108 --> 00:12:56,974 And I think it was -- what I could find was 288 00:12:56,976 --> 00:13:00,478 Around 9% of females will actually hang themselves. 289 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,249 The most popular option, by far, is pills. 290 00:13:04,251 --> 00:13:06,984 - But michele's mood and statistics aside, 291 00:13:06,986 --> 00:13:10,454 They kept coming back to that lack of a suicide note. 292 00:13:10,456 --> 00:13:13,991 - Michele had a master's in english as well as an mba. 293 00:13:13,993 --> 00:13:15,726 She was a prolific writer. 294 00:13:15,728 --> 00:13:18,095 Michele would have written a note of explanation. 295 00:13:18,097 --> 00:13:21,599 So, once there was no note, I think... 296 00:13:21,601 --> 00:13:22,534 - Right, right. 297 00:13:22,536 --> 00:13:25,269 - Yeah, we just said something's wrong. 298 00:13:25,271 --> 00:13:26,370 - Little did they know 299 00:13:26,372 --> 00:13:29,974 Exactly how wrong this would all turn out to be. 300 00:13:30,476 --> 00:13:34,412 - Coming up... Maybe it wasn't a suicide. 301 00:13:34,414 --> 00:13:36,614 - Apparent suicide, did that make any sense to you? 302 00:13:36,616 --> 00:13:37,849 - No. 303 00:13:37,851 --> 00:13:39,417 - My gut was telling me there's something wrong here. 304 00:13:39,419 --> 00:13:41,219 - Maybe it was murder. 305 00:13:41,221 --> 00:13:42,353 - The way that it went around her chin 306 00:13:42,355 --> 00:13:45,189 Did not seem consistent with a hanging. 307 00:13:45,191 --> 00:13:47,425 On her face, you see, it looks like scratch marks, um, 308 00:13:47,427 --> 00:13:50,661 Like maybe she's pulling at whatever is around her neck, 309 00:13:50,663 --> 00:13:52,163 Trying to get it off. 310 00:13:52,165 --> 00:13:54,432 You can see where her bed was pushed out of place. 311 00:13:54,434 --> 00:13:56,000 It appeared that there was a struggle. 312 00:13:56,002 --> 00:13:59,671 - When "dateline: Secrets uncovered" continues. 313 00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:12,650 Police were investigating the hanging death 314 00:14:12,652 --> 00:14:15,653 Of michele neurauter as a possible suicide. 315 00:14:15,655 --> 00:14:17,388 But they still needed to know more 316 00:14:17,390 --> 00:14:19,390 About her final weeks and days. 317 00:14:19,392 --> 00:14:20,391 - Investigative only. 318 00:14:20,393 --> 00:14:21,392 - Hey, how are you? - Good. 319 00:14:21,394 --> 00:14:23,127 Just cautious about how I approach a car. 320 00:14:23,129 --> 00:14:23,995 - Oh. 321 00:14:23,997 --> 00:14:24,863 - I don't want to startle anybody. 322 00:14:24,865 --> 00:14:26,130 - The deceased's ex-husband, lloyd, 323 00:14:26,132 --> 00:14:29,000 Resettled in new jersey, had rushed to upstate new york 324 00:14:29,002 --> 00:14:31,235 After michele's body was found. 325 00:14:31,237 --> 00:14:34,739 Now, sitting in a police car, he seemed eager to talk. 326 00:14:34,741 --> 00:14:38,075 - How long has michele lived at the residence 327 00:14:38,077 --> 00:14:39,410 Over on deloit? Do you know? 328 00:14:39,412 --> 00:14:44,282 - It's about five years. - Okay. 329 00:14:44,284 --> 00:14:46,751 - She bought that after we divorced. 330 00:14:46,753 --> 00:14:48,753 - He told them about his early relationship 331 00:14:48,755 --> 00:14:49,921 With michele. 332 00:14:49,923 --> 00:14:51,889 - We went away to school together. 333 00:14:51,891 --> 00:14:53,524 - Um-hmm. - We did everything together. 334 00:14:53,526 --> 00:14:55,693 So, I never thought like that, 335 00:14:55,695 --> 00:14:57,428 Like, "oh, under some circumstance, 336 00:14:57,430 --> 00:14:58,629 "I'll just walk away." 337 00:14:58,631 --> 00:14:59,831 - When did you guys divorce? 338 00:14:59,833 --> 00:15:02,900 - We divorced in August 2012. 339 00:15:02,902 --> 00:15:04,502 And so actually, that does help me. 340 00:15:04,504 --> 00:15:05,436 I think she... 341 00:15:05,438 --> 00:15:06,771 - He explained that while the divorce 342 00:15:06,773 --> 00:15:08,839 Had been finalized years earlier, 343 00:15:08,841 --> 00:15:11,542 Their custody issues were far from settled. 344 00:15:11,544 --> 00:15:14,045 They were still fighting over their youngest daughter. 345 00:15:14,047 --> 00:15:17,848 - She wanted to live with me, and her mom threw a tantrum. 346 00:15:17,850 --> 00:15:20,385 - Lloyd suggested his ex-wife was unstable, 347 00:15:20,387 --> 00:15:22,053 An emotional wreck. 348 00:15:22,055 --> 00:15:25,323 - Michele was screaming and furious. 349 00:15:25,325 --> 00:15:28,125 I know of that from past behaviors 350 00:15:28,127 --> 00:15:29,460 That there was an occasion 351 00:15:29,462 --> 00:15:31,462 Where michele was having a tantrum 352 00:15:31,464 --> 00:15:35,333 That she would open the door and scream things down the stairs 353 00:15:35,335 --> 00:15:37,168 And then slam her bedroom door. 354 00:15:37,170 --> 00:15:38,670 And did that so many times, 355 00:15:38,672 --> 00:15:42,340 She actually broke the door frame from doing that. 356 00:15:42,342 --> 00:15:44,809 That she was just completely out of control. 357 00:15:44,811 --> 00:15:48,145 - But lloyd admitted his information was secondhand. 358 00:15:48,147 --> 00:15:50,415 He'd heard the stories from his children. 359 00:15:50,417 --> 00:15:52,149 - I don't even know if she was seeing anybody 360 00:15:52,151 --> 00:15:54,485 Or who else she was doing things with. 361 00:15:54,487 --> 00:15:55,620 - Right. 362 00:15:55,622 --> 00:15:57,889 - She really pushed me out of her life. 363 00:15:57,891 --> 00:16:00,558 - Lloyd spoke with police for over an hour. 364 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,961 As the interview ended, he had a question. 365 00:16:02,963 --> 00:16:05,563 When could the kids retrieve their stuff? 366 00:16:05,565 --> 00:16:07,565 - In case I could pass a word, is there any idea 367 00:16:07,567 --> 00:16:09,500 When the kids could get into the house to look for. 368 00:16:09,502 --> 00:16:13,771 - That's -- I'm... - We'll work on that, too. 369 00:16:13,773 --> 00:16:15,640 - If it were a simple suicide, 370 00:16:15,642 --> 00:16:17,875 The investigation wouldn't take long. 371 00:16:17,877 --> 00:16:20,044 But new york investigator, eric hurd, 372 00:16:20,046 --> 00:16:21,879 Who was among the first on the scene, 373 00:16:21,881 --> 00:16:24,015 Thought not so fast. 374 00:16:24,017 --> 00:16:26,050 - My gut was telling me there's something wrong here. 375 00:16:26,052 --> 00:16:29,387 - It wasn't just cop intuition, there was physical evidence, 376 00:16:29,389 --> 00:16:32,857 In his experience, inconsistent with a suicide. 377 00:16:32,859 --> 00:16:35,493 Starting with the position of the thin nylon rope 378 00:16:35,495 --> 00:16:37,128 On michele's body. 379 00:16:37,130 --> 00:16:38,463 - The way that it went around her chin 380 00:16:38,465 --> 00:16:41,132 Did not seem consistent with a hanging. 381 00:16:41,134 --> 00:16:43,801 - He noticed wounds on michele's head, too. 382 00:16:43,803 --> 00:16:46,137 - On her face you see it looks like scratch marks. 383 00:16:46,139 --> 00:16:49,340 Like maybe she's pulling at whatever is around her neck 384 00:16:49,342 --> 00:16:50,975 Trying to get it off. 385 00:16:50,977 --> 00:16:53,144 - And then there was michele's friend rose. 386 00:16:53,146 --> 00:16:56,580 She rushed up to the scene with something urgent to say. 387 00:16:56,582 --> 00:16:57,548 - Apparent suicide. 388 00:16:57,550 --> 00:16:58,849 Did that make any sense to you? 389 00:16:58,851 --> 00:16:59,817 - No. 390 00:16:59,819 --> 00:17:01,385 - She had told me, she's like I know her, 391 00:17:01,387 --> 00:17:02,319 She's friends with me. 392 00:17:02,321 --> 00:17:03,487 She would never do this to herself. 393 00:17:03,489 --> 00:17:04,855 We were just with her the other night. 394 00:17:04,857 --> 00:17:06,758 We were having a great time. She wouldn't do this. 395 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,427 - It's not exactly evidence, but it's a piece. 396 00:17:09,429 --> 00:17:10,895 - It's not evidence at that point. 397 00:17:10,897 --> 00:17:13,431 - And when police formally interviewed the friends, 398 00:17:13,433 --> 00:17:16,600 They got a different picture of michele and the divorce. 399 00:17:16,602 --> 00:17:18,636 They said lloyd was the crazy one, 400 00:17:18,638 --> 00:17:20,838 Relentlessly badgering his ex-wife 401 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,507 With dragged-out custody fights. 402 00:17:23,509 --> 00:17:26,343 - I was at their house, and I think lloyd had just put-- 403 00:17:26,345 --> 00:17:28,646 Served another petition for child custody 404 00:17:28,648 --> 00:17:33,517 Of the younger child. And she was frustrated. 405 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:35,286 Her life was looking very positive, 406 00:17:35,288 --> 00:17:37,588 And this came up again. 407 00:17:37,590 --> 00:17:41,192 - Objective appraisal or friends taking sides? 408 00:17:41,194 --> 00:17:43,828 Either way, they insisted michele wasn't a frazzled, 409 00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:45,963 Out of control single mom. 410 00:17:45,965 --> 00:17:48,666 She was making the best of a bad situation 411 00:17:48,668 --> 00:17:51,936 And dealing with an ex who demeaned her for years. 412 00:17:51,938 --> 00:17:54,638 - Basically, everything she did was criticized. 413 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,674 He made her feel she was really ugly. 414 00:17:56,676 --> 00:17:57,608 He made her feel that 415 00:17:57,610 --> 00:17:59,176 She couldn't make any right decisions. 416 00:17:59,178 --> 00:18:01,345 She was a lousy mother, 417 00:18:01,347 --> 00:18:02,646 That she couldn't do anything right. 418 00:18:02,648 --> 00:18:06,750 She was unemployable and she came to believe this, 419 00:18:06,752 --> 00:18:09,453 Regardless of the fact she had achieved so much 420 00:18:09,455 --> 00:18:11,489 In her time before meeting him, you know? 421 00:18:11,491 --> 00:18:15,226 Being an a student and being really extraordinary. 422 00:18:15,228 --> 00:18:18,095 - So, homicide versus suicide. 423 00:18:18,097 --> 00:18:19,830 On the one hand, the nasty divorce 424 00:18:19,832 --> 00:18:21,599 May have given michele plenty of reasons 425 00:18:21,601 --> 00:18:24,268 To be depressed and want a way out. 426 00:18:24,270 --> 00:18:26,904 But it was a police photo of michele's bedroom 427 00:18:26,906 --> 00:18:30,174 That caused investigator hurd to think otherwise. 428 00:18:30,176 --> 00:18:34,579 - You can see where her bed was pushed out of place. 429 00:18:35,648 --> 00:18:39,617 - He spent hours pouring over the pictures. 430 00:18:39,619 --> 00:18:41,218 - Looking at the wall and kind of zooming in, 431 00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:42,720 You can see things 432 00:18:42,722 --> 00:18:44,155 That are maybe not visible to the naked eye. 433 00:18:44,157 --> 00:18:45,122 - Didn't jump out at you at the time? 434 00:18:45,124 --> 00:18:46,657 - Didn't jump out at first to anybody. 435 00:18:46,659 --> 00:18:47,858 But it looks like -- 436 00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:50,127 We see something that looks like blood on the wall. 437 00:18:50,129 --> 00:18:51,495 So, that was concerning. 438 00:18:51,497 --> 00:18:54,431 - Blood on the wall and a bed out of place. 439 00:18:54,433 --> 00:18:57,468 To hurd, it pointed to only one scenario. 440 00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:01,672 - It appeared that there was a struggle. 441 00:19:01,674 --> 00:19:04,208 - He believed michele had been attacked. 442 00:19:04,210 --> 00:19:06,677 The suicide scene staged. 443 00:19:06,679 --> 00:19:08,880 At the house, there was no sign of forced entry, 444 00:19:08,882 --> 00:19:10,181 Nothing taken. 445 00:19:10,183 --> 00:19:13,017 And investigators theorized that a random intruder 446 00:19:13,019 --> 00:19:15,953 Wouldn't bother arranging such an elaborate scene. 447 00:19:15,955 --> 00:19:17,688 - And an unknown intruder, the one-armed man, 448 00:19:17,690 --> 00:19:19,156 Doesn't figure in here either, right? 449 00:19:19,158 --> 00:19:21,292 - No, we never thought -- never thought that. 450 00:19:21,294 --> 00:19:23,627 - No, they thought, someone close to michele 451 00:19:23,629 --> 00:19:25,362 Had to be responsible. 452 00:19:25,364 --> 00:19:27,097 - So, what do we do now is the question? 453 00:19:27,099 --> 00:19:28,099 - Yes. 454 00:19:28,101 --> 00:19:31,736 - It was time to go looking for suspects. 455 00:19:34,507 --> 00:19:35,973 - Coming up... 456 00:19:35,975 --> 00:19:40,177 Investigators start with the obvious suspect, 457 00:19:40,179 --> 00:19:42,079 Michele's ex-husband, lloyd. 458 00:19:42,081 --> 00:19:45,115 And he had an alibi. 459 00:19:45,117 --> 00:19:46,650 - He said he had been in rochester 460 00:19:46,652 --> 00:19:49,153 To help his daughter move into college. 461 00:19:49,155 --> 00:19:50,521 Spent the night in the hotel, 462 00:19:50,523 --> 00:19:52,122 Stayed in the hotel all night long. 463 00:19:52,124 --> 00:19:54,658 - I think I have every receipt for the last seven days. 464 00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:57,561 - Michele liked to save things too. 465 00:19:57,563 --> 00:20:00,531 Could the mystery be solved from beyond the grave? 466 00:20:00,533 --> 00:20:02,233 - I started finding court documents 467 00:20:02,235 --> 00:20:04,802 And I started finding screenshots of texts. 468 00:20:04,804 --> 00:20:07,271 My daughter documented everything. 469 00:20:07,273 --> 00:20:09,873 - What was the narrative picture that had come together for you 470 00:20:09,875 --> 00:20:11,308 Of what had happened in her life? 471 00:20:11,310 --> 00:20:13,143 - That she was just constantly abused, 472 00:20:13,145 --> 00:20:14,745 Emotionally abused. 473 00:20:14,747 --> 00:20:17,982 - When "dateline: Secrets uncovered" continues. 474 00:20:26,525 --> 00:20:29,159 Welcome back to "dateline: Secrets uncovered". 475 00:20:29,161 --> 00:20:30,628 I'm craig melvin. 476 00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:33,230 Michele neurauter was found dead in her home, 477 00:20:33,232 --> 00:20:35,833 Hanging from a banister. 478 00:20:35,835 --> 00:20:38,402 Investigators suspected the scene was staged 479 00:20:38,404 --> 00:20:40,037 To cover up her murder. 480 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:43,474 During police questioning, michele's ex-husband, lloyd, 481 00:20:43,476 --> 00:20:46,010 Described her as unhinged. 482 00:20:46,012 --> 00:20:48,545 But a secret stash of documents 483 00:20:48,547 --> 00:20:51,916 Found in michele's home painted a different picture 484 00:20:51,918 --> 00:20:55,619 Of the stay-at-home mom and her ex. 485 00:20:55,621 --> 00:21:01,225 Back to dennis murphy with "the ultimatum". 486 00:21:01,227 --> 00:21:03,060 - Michele neuratuer's mother, jeanne, 487 00:21:03,062 --> 00:21:06,196 Was still dealing with the loss of her elder child. 488 00:21:06,198 --> 00:21:09,667 And atop that grief was a longstanding sorrow. 489 00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:10,934 Estrangement. 490 00:21:10,936 --> 00:21:13,404 Michele had abruptly stopped talking to her mom 491 00:21:13,406 --> 00:21:15,272 10 years before. 492 00:21:15,274 --> 00:21:18,008 - I missed her, I loved her, I didn't know what was going on 493 00:21:18,010 --> 00:21:19,943 Because we had never had a fight. 494 00:21:19,945 --> 00:21:23,080 If we'd had a fight and hung up on each other 495 00:21:23,082 --> 00:21:24,882 And, you know, you get over it. 496 00:21:24,884 --> 00:21:27,284 But we did not have that fight. 497 00:21:27,286 --> 00:21:29,420 - Jeanne didn't know exactly what had gone on 498 00:21:29,422 --> 00:21:31,155 In michele and lloyd's marriage, 499 00:21:31,157 --> 00:21:33,490 But she knew she'd never liked him. 500 00:21:33,492 --> 00:21:35,492 - And my husband was like, 501 00:21:35,494 --> 00:21:37,695 "okay, she can do better than this." 502 00:21:37,697 --> 00:21:39,830 "why is she -- what does she see in him?" 503 00:21:39,832 --> 00:21:42,700 - In looking back, what -- what makes you say that, jeanne? 504 00:21:42,702 --> 00:21:44,735 - He was arrogant from the beginning. 505 00:21:44,737 --> 00:21:47,304 He was always arrogant. He was full of himself. 506 00:21:47,306 --> 00:21:49,440 - Michele's sister agreed. 507 00:21:49,442 --> 00:21:50,507 - He wanted to be like, 508 00:21:50,509 --> 00:21:52,509 "oh, I'm going to put you in your place." 509 00:21:52,511 --> 00:21:55,012 - Did you talk to her about how things were? 510 00:21:55,014 --> 00:21:56,514 With her and lloyd? - No. 511 00:21:56,516 --> 00:21:57,548 - Or do you just seal that away? 512 00:21:57,550 --> 00:21:58,649 - No. I knew. 513 00:21:58,651 --> 00:22:03,187 - Is that a no-go topic? - That's a no-go topic. 514 00:22:03,189 --> 00:22:04,188 - Michele's family says 515 00:22:04,190 --> 00:22:06,657 Lloyd's my way or the highway attitude 516 00:22:06,659 --> 00:22:09,526 Extended to the way he disciplined the children. 517 00:22:09,528 --> 00:22:10,728 The doting ballet dad 518 00:22:10,730 --> 00:22:15,733 Wanted his girls to be a little too "on pointe." 519 00:22:15,735 --> 00:22:18,269 - He kind of raised his kids with a military bearing, huh? 520 00:22:18,271 --> 00:22:20,537 - Yes. I mean, they had to-- 521 00:22:20,539 --> 00:22:22,406 He would snap his fingers and they would line up 522 00:22:22,408 --> 00:22:24,341 And they would stand there like little soldiers. 523 00:22:24,343 --> 00:22:27,144 - He would make them kneel with their nose to the wall, 524 00:22:27,146 --> 00:22:28,879 Hands behind their heads, 525 00:22:28,881 --> 00:22:30,481 Like they were being executed. 526 00:22:30,483 --> 00:22:32,383 I'm like, what's this? - I'm sorry? 527 00:22:32,385 --> 00:22:34,118 For a minor household infraction? 528 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:35,552 - Yeah, like for nothing sometimes. 529 00:22:35,554 --> 00:22:37,755 He would just be mad at them. 530 00:22:37,757 --> 00:22:39,957 - After michele's death, jeanne flew out 531 00:22:39,959 --> 00:22:42,693 To the east coast to be with her granddaughters. 532 00:22:42,695 --> 00:22:44,161 That's when she finally learned 533 00:22:44,163 --> 00:22:47,231 Just how bad things had become for michele. 534 00:22:47,233 --> 00:22:49,366 It was all there in her daughter's journals 535 00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:51,835 And boxes of court papers. 536 00:22:51,837 --> 00:22:53,504 - I started finding court documents 537 00:22:53,506 --> 00:22:56,140 And I started finding screenshots of texts. 538 00:22:56,142 --> 00:22:59,042 My daughter documented everything to death. 539 00:22:59,044 --> 00:23:01,478 - What was the narrative picture that had come together for you? 540 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:02,913 Of what had happened in her life? 541 00:23:02,915 --> 00:23:04,715 - That she was just constantly abused. 542 00:23:04,717 --> 00:23:06,984 Emotionally abused, um-- 543 00:23:06,986 --> 00:23:08,319 - By her husband lloyd? 544 00:23:08,321 --> 00:23:09,887 - Mm-hmm, yeah. Especially-- 545 00:23:09,889 --> 00:23:11,122 - And you believed that he ganged up 546 00:23:11,124 --> 00:23:13,391 The children against her? - Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 547 00:23:13,393 --> 00:23:15,058 Yes. 548 00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:17,494 - Michele's mother read how the unhappy marriage 549 00:23:17,496 --> 00:23:20,330 Turned into an unhappy divorce. 550 00:23:20,332 --> 00:23:23,500 - He was taking her to court over and over and over. 551 00:23:23,502 --> 00:23:25,903 - The acrimony between lloyd and michele 552 00:23:25,905 --> 00:23:28,939 Had been well known to michele's friends for years. 553 00:23:28,941 --> 00:23:30,841 They'd seen it up close. 554 00:23:30,843 --> 00:23:32,343 If her death was a murder, 555 00:23:32,345 --> 00:23:34,345 The history of that marriage and divorce 556 00:23:34,347 --> 00:23:36,947 Told them exactly what happened. 557 00:23:36,949 --> 00:23:39,249 - When asked at the scene what I thought, 558 00:23:39,251 --> 00:23:41,785 My answer was I think he did it. 559 00:23:41,787 --> 00:23:43,887 - The husband? The ex? - Uh-huh. Absolutely. 560 00:23:43,889 --> 00:23:45,356 - No problems. 561 00:23:46,492 --> 00:23:48,759 - The very same lloyd who had calmly and clearly 562 00:23:48,761 --> 00:23:52,029 Volunteered so much information to investigators. 563 00:23:52,031 --> 00:23:54,331 - She was just completely out of control. 564 00:23:54,333 --> 00:23:56,066 - Demeanor. What are you hearing in the--? 565 00:23:56,068 --> 00:23:57,801 - Uh, he was very cooperative. 566 00:23:57,803 --> 00:23:59,303 - Would you like me to move up a little? 567 00:23:59,305 --> 00:24:01,038 - No, you're fine, I'm fine. - Are you sure? Okay. 568 00:24:01,907 --> 00:24:03,974 - Police had reason to believe michele died 569 00:24:03,976 --> 00:24:07,311 Sometime after midnight Saturday going into Sunday. 570 00:24:07,313 --> 00:24:09,713 So, the question, where was lloyd? 571 00:24:09,715 --> 00:24:11,982 - Tell me the way, uh, you came up at first. 572 00:24:11,984 --> 00:24:15,319 - Sure. To-to go to rochester. 573 00:24:15,321 --> 00:24:16,987 - He'd told police he'd driven up 574 00:24:16,989 --> 00:24:18,722 From new jersey to rochester 575 00:24:18,724 --> 00:24:21,391 To help karrie move into her college apartment. 576 00:24:21,393 --> 00:24:23,193 - She couldn't fit everything in the car. 577 00:24:23,195 --> 00:24:25,429 So, I had totes back in princeton 578 00:24:25,431 --> 00:24:26,597 That I had to bring. 579 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:29,199 So, when I arrived on Saturday... 580 00:24:29,201 --> 00:24:30,767 - Okay. - ...I went to the apartment 581 00:24:30,769 --> 00:24:33,303 And I unloaded my car of her stuff. 582 00:24:33,305 --> 00:24:34,338 - At karrie's apartment? 583 00:24:34,340 --> 00:24:35,873 - Yeah, at karrie's apartment. - Okay. 584 00:24:35,875 --> 00:24:37,341 - And then he said he spent the night 585 00:24:37,343 --> 00:24:39,443 In a nearby hotel. 586 00:24:39,445 --> 00:24:41,812 - From 11 until 7 then, you're in the hotel? 587 00:24:41,814 --> 00:24:43,080 Ish? - Yes. 588 00:24:43,082 --> 00:24:44,615 - By yourself? 589 00:24:44,617 --> 00:24:45,582 - Yes. 590 00:24:45,584 --> 00:24:46,817 - He said he had been in rochester 591 00:24:46,819 --> 00:24:49,019 To help her-- his daughter move into college, 592 00:24:49,021 --> 00:24:50,554 Spent the night in the hotel, 593 00:24:50,556 --> 00:24:52,689 Stayed in the hotel all night long. 594 00:24:52,691 --> 00:24:54,892 - Lloyd said he drove home the next day 595 00:24:54,894 --> 00:24:56,927 And only returned to the corning area 596 00:24:56,929 --> 00:24:59,296 After michele's body had been found. 597 00:24:59,298 --> 00:25:01,331 He could account for all of his movements. 598 00:25:01,333 --> 00:25:03,934 - I think I have every receipt for the last seven days. 599 00:25:06,272 --> 00:25:08,372 - Now, they needed to put lloyd's timeline 600 00:25:08,374 --> 00:25:10,174 Under a microscope. 601 00:25:10,176 --> 00:25:12,809 Police pulled his phone records, and guess what? 602 00:25:12,811 --> 00:25:15,479 His cell never left the hotel that night. 603 00:25:15,481 --> 00:25:17,247 So far, so good. 604 00:25:17,249 --> 00:25:19,783 And the story told by the phone meant he couldn't be 605 00:25:19,785 --> 00:25:21,785 An hour and a half south in corning 606 00:25:21,787 --> 00:25:23,854 As michele was about to die. 607 00:25:23,856 --> 00:25:25,722 So, police had to consider others 608 00:25:25,724 --> 00:25:27,591 In michele's inner circle. 609 00:25:27,593 --> 00:25:29,493 And that included the last known person 610 00:25:29,495 --> 00:25:31,461 To have seen michele alive. 611 00:25:31,463 --> 00:25:33,497 It was someone who had admitted in a phone call 612 00:25:33,499 --> 00:25:36,433 With police to fighting with michele that very night. 613 00:25:36,435 --> 00:25:38,068 Her middle daughter, karrie. 614 00:25:48,948 --> 00:25:50,548 - I'm sorry. 615 00:25:53,552 --> 00:25:54,885 - Okay. 616 00:25:54,887 --> 00:25:56,853 - Sure, karrie sounded distraught, 617 00:25:56,855 --> 00:25:58,622 But the officer who first took down 618 00:25:58,624 --> 00:26:00,223 Her account of that night 619 00:26:00,225 --> 00:26:02,426 Didn't like what he was hearing. 620 00:26:02,428 --> 00:26:05,028 - He said right away, he's like something's not right. 621 00:26:05,030 --> 00:26:06,096 - What was he referring to? 622 00:26:06,098 --> 00:26:07,531 - Karrie specifically was not telling the truth 623 00:26:07,533 --> 00:26:09,133 About what happened that night. 624 00:26:11,770 --> 00:26:14,071 - What was karrie hiding? 625 00:26:14,073 --> 00:26:17,107 Investigators turned to another daughter for clues 626 00:26:17,109 --> 00:26:20,310 And hear a very different version 627 00:26:20,312 --> 00:26:23,180 Of karrie's late-night visit. 628 00:26:23,182 --> 00:26:24,782 - Coming up... 629 00:26:24,784 --> 00:26:27,150 - The younger sister says I get woken. 630 00:26:27,152 --> 00:26:28,519 It sounds like somebody is in the house 631 00:26:28,521 --> 00:26:30,187 Attacking my mom. 632 00:26:30,189 --> 00:26:31,722 Then her sister comes in the house 633 00:26:31,724 --> 00:26:33,523 And tells her we've gotta leave. 634 00:26:33,525 --> 00:26:35,059 Mom's upset. She's really mad. 635 00:26:35,061 --> 00:26:36,526 We've gotta go back to rochester. 636 00:26:36,528 --> 00:26:37,595 You're coming with me. 637 00:26:37,597 --> 00:26:40,164 - When "dateline: Secrets uncovered" continues. 638 00:26:52,744 --> 00:26:53,877 - Here's a truism. 639 00:26:53,879 --> 00:26:56,013 Cops don't like to be lied to. 640 00:26:56,015 --> 00:26:58,415 Especially cops investigating an unsolved death 641 00:26:58,417 --> 00:27:01,318 Like that of the corning mom michele neurauter. 642 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,086 Especially if they're suspicious that 643 00:27:03,088 --> 00:27:04,688 The victim's 19-year-old daughter 644 00:27:04,690 --> 00:27:06,557 Is the one doing the lying. 645 00:27:07,693 --> 00:27:09,092 In a statement to investigators, 646 00:27:09,094 --> 00:27:10,561 Karrie, the middle child, 647 00:27:10,563 --> 00:27:12,830 Admitted she had arrived at her mother's house 648 00:27:12,832 --> 00:27:15,165 Just shortly before her death. 649 00:27:15,167 --> 00:27:17,601 - She had initially told us that she, um, got there 650 00:27:17,603 --> 00:27:19,236 And had a fight with her mom and she left. 651 00:27:19,238 --> 00:27:21,638 So, she led us to believe this was a 15 or 20-minute 652 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,374 Stay at her mom's house. 653 00:27:23,376 --> 00:27:26,843 - The thing was her cellphone records said otherwise. 654 00:27:26,845 --> 00:27:28,412 - You could see that she's at the house 655 00:27:28,414 --> 00:27:29,713 For about two hours, 656 00:27:29,715 --> 00:27:31,915 A lot longer than we anticipated her to be there. 657 00:27:31,917 --> 00:27:33,650 - So, was karrie hiding something about 658 00:27:33,652 --> 00:27:35,852 What happened after that argument? 659 00:27:35,854 --> 00:27:38,055 Those who knew her best never considered karrie 660 00:27:38,057 --> 00:27:40,724 To be anything but honest. 661 00:27:40,726 --> 00:27:42,726 Family friend rose was one of the first people 662 00:27:42,728 --> 00:27:45,462 To speak with karrie after michele was found. 663 00:27:45,464 --> 00:27:47,264 - We just sat on the phone together 664 00:27:47,266 --> 00:27:50,267 For about a half hour and just cried. 665 00:27:50,269 --> 00:27:52,202 - And mina said there was no way 666 00:27:52,204 --> 00:27:54,471 Her smart and kind-hearted friend 667 00:27:54,473 --> 00:27:57,340 Would have played any kind of role in a murder. 668 00:27:57,342 --> 00:28:00,711 - I could never, um, picture her being violent. 669 00:28:00,713 --> 00:28:02,679 - But police had a different take. 670 00:28:02,681 --> 00:28:05,615 They remembered there being turmoil in michele's house. 671 00:28:05,617 --> 00:28:08,218 All those calls to police years earlier. 672 00:28:08,220 --> 00:28:12,289 Had that shouting finally boiled over, ending in murder? 673 00:28:12,291 --> 00:28:14,558 And there was an ear witness, of sorts. 674 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,760 Karrie's kid sister, the 14-year-old, 675 00:28:16,762 --> 00:28:18,862 Had been sleeping downstairs. 676 00:28:18,864 --> 00:28:22,699 She told a detective she remembers hearing screams. 677 00:28:22,701 --> 00:28:25,169 - The younger sister says I get woken. 678 00:28:25,171 --> 00:28:26,636 It sounds like somebody is in the house 679 00:28:26,638 --> 00:28:27,971 Attacking my mom. 680 00:28:27,973 --> 00:28:29,673 - She used that word? - Yes, she did. 681 00:28:29,675 --> 00:28:31,975 Then her sister tells her we've gotta leave. 682 00:28:31,977 --> 00:28:33,577 Mom's upset. She's really mad, 683 00:28:33,579 --> 00:28:34,645 We've gotta go back to rochester. 684 00:28:34,647 --> 00:28:35,846 You're coming with me. 685 00:28:35,848 --> 00:28:38,248 - Karrie's story was way out of whack. 686 00:28:38,250 --> 00:28:40,584 As hard as it was to wrap their heads around it, 687 00:28:40,586 --> 00:28:42,452 The detectives were coming to believe 688 00:28:42,454 --> 00:28:43,987 That the college student daughter 689 00:28:43,989 --> 00:28:46,990 May have murdered her own mother. 690 00:28:46,992 --> 00:28:48,925 Unthinkable. This is her mother. 691 00:28:48,927 --> 00:28:50,794 And I just keep coming back, this is the mother. 692 00:28:50,796 --> 00:28:52,329 - The mother. Her own mother. 693 00:28:52,331 --> 00:28:53,430 That, to me, was the most chilling part 694 00:28:53,432 --> 00:28:54,531 Of this whole thing. 695 00:28:54,533 --> 00:28:56,366 - But if it were true, the young woman was 696 00:28:56,368 --> 00:28:59,136 Too petite, they thought, to have pulled it off alone. 697 00:28:59,138 --> 00:29:00,737 - There's no way that karrie could have physically 698 00:29:00,739 --> 00:29:02,339 Carried out the act. 699 00:29:02,341 --> 00:29:03,974 If it was to be homicide, 700 00:29:03,976 --> 00:29:05,842 She would have needed some help. 701 00:29:05,844 --> 00:29:07,310 - But from whom? 702 00:29:07,312 --> 00:29:09,679 They naturally looked to those closest to karrie. 703 00:29:09,681 --> 00:29:12,215 And who was closer than her dad, lloyd? 704 00:29:12,217 --> 00:29:15,119 Going all the way back to those ballet school days. 705 00:29:16,255 --> 00:29:19,222 Cops also knew that lloyd had been in the area that weekend 706 00:29:19,224 --> 00:29:21,759 Helping karrie move into her college apartment. 707 00:29:21,761 --> 00:29:23,426 - I think the more detail you can tell us about things, 708 00:29:23,428 --> 00:29:25,229 Obviously the more that is helpful to us. 709 00:29:25,231 --> 00:29:28,131 - But what about his apparently ironclad alibi 710 00:29:28,133 --> 00:29:30,433 Backed up by his cellphone records? 711 00:29:30,435 --> 00:29:33,236 That he never left his hotel that night. 712 00:29:33,238 --> 00:29:35,739 - From 11 to 7 then, you're in the hotel? 713 00:29:35,741 --> 00:29:37,508 - Yes. - All right. 714 00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:40,177 - Investigator hurd sent a colleague to spool through 715 00:29:40,179 --> 00:29:42,679 The hotel security cam footage. 716 00:29:42,681 --> 00:29:44,781 - He goes, "I don't like what I'm seeing." 717 00:29:44,783 --> 00:29:45,782 - Hmm. - It looks like 718 00:29:45,784 --> 00:29:47,384 That dad and karrie left together 719 00:29:47,386 --> 00:29:49,386 About 10 o'clock that night. 720 00:29:49,388 --> 00:29:50,554 - What was that? 721 00:29:50,556 --> 00:29:53,190 The dad and the daughter together, leaving? 722 00:29:53,192 --> 00:29:56,560 And when they fast-forwarded the hotel security video, 723 00:29:56,562 --> 00:29:58,595 There was lloyd neurauter seen again, 724 00:29:58,597 --> 00:30:01,665 Walking through the parking lot at 6:30 a.M., 725 00:30:01,667 --> 00:30:04,334 More than eight hours later. 726 00:30:04,336 --> 00:30:06,736 - Are you theorizing the darkest scenario 727 00:30:06,738 --> 00:30:08,872 That dad and daughter are in on this thing together? 728 00:30:08,874 --> 00:30:10,707 - Yes, we are. - That's a monstrous theory. 729 00:30:10,709 --> 00:30:12,008 - Yes, it is. 730 00:30:12,010 --> 00:30:14,544 - The authorities held their cards close to the vest. 731 00:30:14,546 --> 00:30:16,713 None of their suspicions leaked out. 732 00:30:16,715 --> 00:30:19,282 Steuben county district attorney brooks baker 733 00:30:19,284 --> 00:30:22,018 Was consulted as investigators got search warrants 734 00:30:22,020 --> 00:30:24,988 So they could tap father and daughter's cellphones. 735 00:30:29,027 --> 00:30:30,093 - Now, what are you hoping for? 736 00:30:30,095 --> 00:30:31,828 - What we're hoping for is some conversation 737 00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:33,129 Between the two of them 738 00:30:33,131 --> 00:30:35,032 About the death, about money. 739 00:30:38,971 --> 00:30:40,737 - And? - We didn't get much. 740 00:30:40,739 --> 00:30:43,640 - Investigators decided to ratchet up the pressure. 741 00:30:43,642 --> 00:30:46,276 What's called, in cop talk, tickling the wire. 742 00:30:49,915 --> 00:30:51,715 - We have an investigator from corning pd 743 00:30:51,717 --> 00:30:53,984 Call karrie and say, "hey, I want to talk to you." 744 00:30:53,986 --> 00:30:56,319 And the hope is that that'll get a conversation going 745 00:30:56,321 --> 00:30:58,188 Between lloyd and his daughter. 746 00:31:06,632 --> 00:31:09,132 - With her wire tickled, would karrie take the bait 747 00:31:09,134 --> 00:31:11,735 And call her father with the latest? 748 00:31:11,737 --> 00:31:13,370 She did exactly that. 749 00:31:40,299 --> 00:31:42,499 [chuckling] 750 00:31:44,102 --> 00:31:45,635 - We call it the lie and cry conversation 751 00:31:45,637 --> 00:31:47,837 Because it's-it's when all of our hackles kind of went up. 752 00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:49,105 - He's telling his daughter to lie. 753 00:31:49,107 --> 00:31:50,440 - He's telling his daughter to lie to the investigator, 754 00:31:50,442 --> 00:31:51,775 Lie to him, and-and, by the way, 755 00:31:51,777 --> 00:31:53,443 If that doesn't work, can you cry. 756 00:31:57,215 --> 00:31:59,216 - Yeah. 757 00:32:04,723 --> 00:32:08,124 - By now, investigators had a working theory of the crime, 758 00:32:08,126 --> 00:32:10,593 That it was probably not the dad helping the daughter, 759 00:32:10,595 --> 00:32:12,062 But the reverse. 760 00:32:12,064 --> 00:32:15,098 That dad, they theorized, was the mastermind. 761 00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:17,935 But authorities lacked hard proof of anything. 762 00:32:17,937 --> 00:32:19,402 They needed more. 763 00:32:19,404 --> 00:32:20,837 - You're not ready to go to grand jury with that yet? 764 00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:21,939 - We're-we're not even close. 765 00:32:21,941 --> 00:32:23,773 But that gives us enough reason 766 00:32:23,775 --> 00:32:24,875 To keep on listening. 767 00:32:24,877 --> 00:32:27,644 And as we listen, we never hear the smoking gun 768 00:32:27,646 --> 00:32:28,745 We're hoping for. 769 00:32:28,747 --> 00:32:30,146 But we do get bits and pieces. 770 00:32:30,148 --> 00:32:32,048 I mean, he's-- lloyd talks about 771 00:32:32,050 --> 00:32:33,383 How he's going to buy a tessla 772 00:32:33,385 --> 00:32:35,419 And-and have it at some point in the near future. 773 00:32:35,421 --> 00:32:37,020 We've already begun running his finances. 774 00:32:37,022 --> 00:32:38,221 - Well, let's talk about that. 775 00:32:38,223 --> 00:32:39,556 What's the picture coming together of lloyd's finances? 776 00:32:39,558 --> 00:32:41,024 - It's-it's pretty bleak. 777 00:32:41,026 --> 00:32:44,327 The reality is that lloyd, um, he's got a good income. 778 00:32:44,329 --> 00:32:45,829 He's an engineer. - Six-figure guy? 779 00:32:45,831 --> 00:32:47,397 - Six-figure guy. He's doing pretty well, 780 00:32:47,399 --> 00:32:49,132 But he's also absolutely upside down. 781 00:32:49,134 --> 00:32:51,668 He, um, is basically robbing peter to pay paul 782 00:32:51,670 --> 00:32:52,902 Every single month. 783 00:32:52,904 --> 00:32:54,204 - Oh, good. - Yeah. 784 00:32:54,206 --> 00:32:56,373 - After two more months of tapping the phones, 785 00:32:56,375 --> 00:32:59,275 They decided showtime had arrived. 786 00:32:59,277 --> 00:33:01,444 They would simultaneously appear unannounced 787 00:33:01,446 --> 00:33:03,046 To interview both karrie and lloyd 788 00:33:03,048 --> 00:33:04,647 In separate locations 789 00:33:04,649 --> 00:33:07,050 And confront the two directly. 790 00:33:07,052 --> 00:33:10,053 In late January 2018, like commandos 791 00:33:10,055 --> 00:33:12,789 Synchronizing their watches, they swoop down. 792 00:33:13,992 --> 00:33:16,259 - In new jersey, two fbi agents appeared 793 00:33:16,261 --> 00:33:17,961 At lloyd's workplace. 794 00:33:17,963 --> 00:33:20,530 He agreed to meet with them in a conference room. 795 00:33:20,532 --> 00:33:22,733 The agents gave him an update on the case. 796 00:34:02,774 --> 00:34:04,974 - And instead of jumping and saying, 797 00:34:04,976 --> 00:34:06,376 "no, this is my daughter. 798 00:34:06,378 --> 00:34:07,878 "she wouldn't do something like that!" 799 00:34:09,648 --> 00:34:12,315 - It's the longest pause in the entire time he talked. 800 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,421 - So, he's not papa lying, protecting his cubbies here. 801 00:34:18,423 --> 00:34:20,123 - No. He's-he's how do I sort of 802 00:34:20,125 --> 00:34:22,992 Toss her under the bus kind of thing. 803 00:34:22,994 --> 00:34:25,662 - Lloyd had to realize the walls were closing in. 804 00:34:25,664 --> 00:34:27,864 Still, the interview ended with handshakes. 805 00:34:35,340 --> 00:34:36,873 - The agents allowed lloyd to leave 806 00:34:36,875 --> 00:34:39,409 After his very bad day at the office. 807 00:34:39,411 --> 00:34:41,278 Then they tailed him and listened in 808 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:42,979 As he phoned his daughter. 809 00:34:47,552 --> 00:34:50,620 - 250 miles away in syracuse, new york, 810 00:34:50,622 --> 00:34:54,190 Daughter karrie had also been confronted by police. 811 00:34:54,192 --> 00:34:57,694 And she, too, had had a very bad day. 812 00:34:57,696 --> 00:34:59,896 What did she tell her inquisitors? 813 00:35:01,633 --> 00:35:05,035 - Family secrets are about to come tumbling out. 814 00:35:05,037 --> 00:35:08,371 And as evidence mounts against the father-daughter duo, 815 00:35:08,373 --> 00:35:12,041 One of them makes a dangerous move. 816 00:35:12,043 --> 00:35:13,676 - Coming up... 817 00:35:13,678 --> 00:35:18,248 After one staged suicide, would this one be real? 818 00:35:18,250 --> 00:35:19,449 - There he is out on the ledge. 819 00:35:19,451 --> 00:35:20,383 - On the ledge? 820 00:35:20,385 --> 00:35:21,718 - Five stories down into concrete, 821 00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:22,886 Threatening to kill himself. 822 00:35:22,888 --> 00:35:23,786 He's gonna jump. 823 00:35:23,788 --> 00:35:24,787 He's got his phone, 824 00:35:24,789 --> 00:35:26,356 And he wants to talk to his daughter. 825 00:35:26,358 --> 00:35:29,226 - When "dateline" secrets uncovered" continues. 826 00:35:39,337 --> 00:35:41,337 - Karrie neurauter, who'd always been on-script 827 00:35:41,339 --> 00:35:43,039 About the night her mother died, 828 00:35:43,041 --> 00:35:46,409 Said they'd had a fight, she'd left, end of story. 829 00:35:46,411 --> 00:35:47,977 But now, she sat in a room 830 00:35:47,979 --> 00:35:49,679 With new york state investigators 831 00:35:49,681 --> 00:35:51,648 Determined to get the truth. 832 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,521 - Karrie quickly caved and admitted she'd lied. 833 00:35:58,523 --> 00:36:00,157 Her dad had been there with her. 834 00:36:13,104 --> 00:36:14,471 - And there was more. 835 00:36:28,253 --> 00:36:31,054 [sobbing] 836 00:36:31,056 --> 00:36:32,989 - Then it started to tumble out. 837 00:36:32,991 --> 00:36:34,591 The nightmare story. 838 00:36:34,593 --> 00:36:37,794 She told investigators her dad, drowning in alimony 839 00:36:37,796 --> 00:36:41,364 And child support payments, had given her an ultimatum. 840 00:36:41,366 --> 00:36:43,066 Him or her mom. 841 00:37:05,223 --> 00:37:08,691 - Why, at the crossroads, did she decide to help? 842 00:37:08,693 --> 00:37:11,127 She says she saw no other alternative. 843 00:37:17,836 --> 00:37:19,369 - Then she told the investigators 844 00:37:19,371 --> 00:37:20,971 What her father did. 845 00:37:32,584 --> 00:37:35,251 - Karrie's job was to disable any security devices 846 00:37:35,253 --> 00:37:37,587 And to distract her younger sister 847 00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:39,989 Asleep downstairs, totally unaware 848 00:37:39,991 --> 00:37:41,524 Of what was going on. 849 00:37:49,734 --> 00:37:52,235 - Now we had the framework of the story together now. 850 00:37:52,237 --> 00:37:53,970 - I mean, what a bombshell in the room, 851 00:37:53,972 --> 00:37:55,405 To the ears that are listening to this. 852 00:37:55,407 --> 00:37:57,240 - At that point, we're shellshocked. 853 00:37:58,610 --> 00:38:02,412 - At last, the authorities had enough to arrest lloyd. 854 00:38:02,414 --> 00:38:03,346 He had left work, 855 00:38:03,348 --> 00:38:06,683 Seemingly unnerved by his chat with the fbi. 856 00:38:06,685 --> 00:38:08,918 And new jersey state police had tailed him 857 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,119 As he drove to the top 858 00:38:10,121 --> 00:38:12,021 Of a five-story parking garage, 859 00:38:12,023 --> 00:38:15,091 Got out of his car, and sat on a ledge. 860 00:38:15,093 --> 00:38:18,761 Apparently, suicide seemed a better option than prison. 861 00:38:18,763 --> 00:38:20,163 - And there he is out on the ledge. 862 00:38:20,165 --> 00:38:21,197 - On the ledge? 863 00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:22,432 - Five stories down into concrete, 864 00:38:22,434 --> 00:38:23,767 Threatening to kill himself. 865 00:38:23,769 --> 00:38:24,834 - So, he's gonna be a jumper. 866 00:38:24,836 --> 00:38:25,968 - He's gonna jump. 867 00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:27,036 He's got his phone, 868 00:38:27,038 --> 00:38:28,571 And he wants to talk to his daughter. 869 00:38:29,374 --> 00:38:31,374 - After a 90-minute negotiation, 870 00:38:31,376 --> 00:38:33,576 A homicide detective tackled lloyd 871 00:38:33,578 --> 00:38:35,645 And put him under arrest. 872 00:38:35,647 --> 00:38:37,247 Back in new york, authorities read 873 00:38:37,249 --> 00:38:39,649 His daughter karrie her rights, too. 874 00:38:39,651 --> 00:38:41,918 Murder charges for both. 875 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,619 Michele's mom, across the country, 876 00:38:43,621 --> 00:38:45,121 Was in disbelief. 877 00:38:45,123 --> 00:38:46,589 - I said, "no, not karrie, not karrie. 878 00:38:46,591 --> 00:38:48,058 "please, not karrie." 879 00:38:48,060 --> 00:38:50,693 - The friends in corning couldn't absorb it either. 880 00:38:50,695 --> 00:38:53,363 Him, of course, but her, too? 881 00:38:53,365 --> 00:38:55,532 The little ballerina they'd watch grow up 882 00:38:55,534 --> 00:38:57,400 Now charged with murder. 883 00:38:57,402 --> 00:38:59,269 - That's the unbelievable part. 884 00:38:59,271 --> 00:39:00,970 - I mean, we loved this child. 885 00:39:02,207 --> 00:39:05,007 - As time has passed, michele's friends are starting 886 00:39:05,009 --> 00:39:07,544 To learn of a family's brainwashing, 887 00:39:07,546 --> 00:39:10,813 Of a controlling father who poisoned his daughters' minds 888 00:39:10,815 --> 00:39:13,216 With the drip, drip of a phony story 889 00:39:13,218 --> 00:39:14,751 That went on for years, 890 00:39:14,753 --> 00:39:16,886 That their mother was no good, crazy, 891 00:39:16,888 --> 00:39:18,454 That they'd all be better off 892 00:39:18,456 --> 00:39:20,490 With her out of the picture. 893 00:39:20,492 --> 00:39:22,959 A father's manipulation that went all the way back 894 00:39:22,961 --> 00:39:26,429 To ballet class days and probably earlier. 895 00:39:26,431 --> 00:39:30,199 - What flashed back to me was that time I saw 896 00:39:30,201 --> 00:39:32,635 A 7-year-old karrie 897 00:39:32,637 --> 00:39:35,838 Standing front and center, shaking. 898 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,910 And I personally believe 899 00:39:40,912 --> 00:39:44,247 It was this accumulation of control. 900 00:39:44,249 --> 00:39:47,717 I felt that she had been brainwashed. 901 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,585 - And looking back, michele's mom 902 00:39:49,587 --> 00:39:51,320 Is now certain it was lloyd 903 00:39:51,322 --> 00:39:53,156 Who was behind the unexplained rift 904 00:39:53,158 --> 00:39:54,357 With her daughter. 905 00:39:54,359 --> 00:39:56,993 - I think that he'd already started alienating her, 906 00:39:56,995 --> 00:39:58,494 Manipulating her mind. 907 00:39:58,496 --> 00:39:59,996 - Putting a false narrative in her head 908 00:39:59,998 --> 00:40:02,732 About who she was and who her people were? 909 00:40:02,734 --> 00:40:05,435 - I have often referred to him as jim jones. 910 00:40:05,437 --> 00:40:08,504 - It's almost cult leader-esque, uh, what he has done 911 00:40:08,506 --> 00:40:10,640 To karrie and his-- and her sisters. 912 00:40:10,642 --> 00:40:12,208 - It appeared that father and daughter 913 00:40:12,210 --> 00:40:13,843 Would be tried together. 914 00:40:13,845 --> 00:40:16,012 Both entered pleas of not guilty. 915 00:40:16,014 --> 00:40:19,349 But as the case moved forward, karrie, alone in her cell, 916 00:40:19,351 --> 00:40:20,950 Removed from her father, 917 00:40:20,952 --> 00:40:23,352 It was as though the spell was broken. 918 00:40:23,354 --> 00:40:25,721 Karrie flipped and decided to testify 919 00:40:25,723 --> 00:40:26,823 Against her father. 920 00:40:26,825 --> 00:40:27,957 - At what point, did your dad first approach you 921 00:40:27,959 --> 00:40:29,225 With this plan? 922 00:40:29,227 --> 00:40:32,361 - Now, she gave a second, even more detailed confession 923 00:40:32,363 --> 00:40:34,230 And prepared to be the star witness 924 00:40:34,232 --> 00:40:36,165 At her father's murder trial. 925 00:40:36,167 --> 00:40:38,167 And a new wrenching detail, 926 00:40:38,169 --> 00:40:40,803 She had helped move her mother's dead body. 927 00:40:40,805 --> 00:40:43,906 - We dragged her around the corner, 928 00:40:43,908 --> 00:40:46,309 And he tied the rope to the-- 929 00:40:46,311 --> 00:40:48,811 To the one prong of the banister 930 00:40:48,813 --> 00:40:50,646 And lifted her up and put her-- 931 00:40:50,648 --> 00:40:54,283 Threw her over the side. 932 00:40:54,285 --> 00:40:55,985 I'm sorry. - That's okay. 933 00:40:58,156 --> 00:41:00,156 - But her dad's trial never happened. 934 00:41:00,158 --> 00:41:02,925 Lab results came back showing the ex-husband's dna 935 00:41:02,927 --> 00:41:04,994 Was all over michele's bedclothes 936 00:41:04,996 --> 00:41:08,030 In that house he claimed never to have been inside. 937 00:41:08,032 --> 00:41:10,933 In October of 2018, lloyd neurauter 938 00:41:10,935 --> 00:41:13,135 Pleaded guilty to murder one. 939 00:41:13,137 --> 00:41:14,604 - I was stunned. He gave it up. 940 00:41:14,606 --> 00:41:17,240 Um, he told us exactly what happened. 941 00:41:17,242 --> 00:41:19,142 - Lloyd gave a full statement, 942 00:41:19,144 --> 00:41:21,277 Owning up to being the master manipulator 943 00:41:21,279 --> 00:41:24,413 That friends and family said they'd witnessed all along. 944 00:41:24,415 --> 00:41:26,082 - He described the process by which 945 00:41:26,084 --> 00:41:28,684 He would abuse michele in front of his girls, 946 00:41:28,686 --> 00:41:30,887 Belittle her, convince them that she was insane, 947 00:41:30,889 --> 00:41:32,321 That she was dangerous. 948 00:41:32,323 --> 00:41:34,891 He's a narcissist. The world revolves around him. 949 00:41:34,893 --> 00:41:37,961 His password to his-- um, to all of his accounts 950 00:41:37,963 --> 00:41:39,429 Was all-my-girls-love-me. 951 00:41:39,431 --> 00:41:40,463 - Oh, you're kidding. 952 00:41:40,465 --> 00:41:42,298 - That's-- no, that's-that's how he operated. 953 00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:45,969 Ultimately, that power led karrie to say yes 954 00:41:45,971 --> 00:41:48,905 Because, you know, dad says it's so. 955 00:41:48,907 --> 00:41:51,174 If dad says it's so, it must be so. 956 00:41:51,176 --> 00:41:53,843 - Lloyd was sentenced to life without parole. 957 00:41:53,845 --> 00:41:55,845 - Any last words, lloyd? 958 00:41:55,847 --> 00:41:57,647 - District attorney baker allowed karrie 959 00:41:57,649 --> 00:42:00,516 To plead to a lesser charge of manslaughter. 960 00:42:00,518 --> 00:42:03,319 She was sentenced to one to three years. 961 00:42:03,321 --> 00:42:06,256 The d.A. Sees the daughter as a victim, too. 962 00:42:06,258 --> 00:42:07,857 - You want to be sympathetic 963 00:42:07,859 --> 00:42:09,725 Because she's a sympathetic character. 964 00:42:09,727 --> 00:42:12,361 She deserves sympathy for where she was. 965 00:42:12,363 --> 00:42:14,063 But she's still guilty of murder. 966 00:42:14,065 --> 00:42:16,132 And that's-that's the-- and justice has to happen. 967 00:42:16,134 --> 00:42:17,967 - And friend cynthia can't shake 968 00:42:17,969 --> 00:42:20,770 That emotional conversation she had with michele 969 00:42:20,772 --> 00:42:22,539 Just before she died. 970 00:42:22,541 --> 00:42:25,541 The one where she promised to take care of her daughters. 971 00:42:25,543 --> 00:42:27,343 - If anything happens to me? - Yeah. 972 00:42:27,345 --> 00:42:30,947 That came back very strong for me. 973 00:42:30,949 --> 00:42:34,417 - Cynthia kept that promise, visiting karrie in jail 974 00:42:34,419 --> 00:42:37,019 And trying to help a bewildered young woman 975 00:42:37,021 --> 00:42:39,455 Find her way through this. 976 00:42:39,457 --> 00:42:40,823 - She's very remorseful. 977 00:42:40,825 --> 00:42:43,993 She misses her mother very much 978 00:42:43,995 --> 00:42:46,162 And she has said that her mother 979 00:42:46,164 --> 00:42:47,563 Would know what to do right now. 980 00:42:47,565 --> 00:42:49,966 She would know how to help me. 981 00:42:49,968 --> 00:42:52,401 - Still grieving over the death of her daughter, 982 00:42:52,403 --> 00:42:56,039 Michele's mom is now facing another kind of sorrow, 983 00:42:56,041 --> 00:42:59,308 Coming to terms with this unthinkable crime 984 00:42:59,310 --> 00:43:01,644 And the granddaughter who said yes 985 00:43:01,646 --> 00:43:04,180 To a father's deadly ultimatum. 986 00:43:04,182 --> 00:43:07,783 - She is a human being. 987 00:43:07,785 --> 00:43:09,885 She's still a child. 988 00:43:09,887 --> 00:43:12,254 She might be considered an adult, 989 00:43:12,256 --> 00:43:13,789 But I hear the child. 990 00:43:13,791 --> 00:43:15,591 - And yet she killed your daughter. 991 00:43:15,593 --> 00:43:17,260 - And she killed my daughter. 992 00:43:17,262 --> 00:43:19,929 Um, she's a victim. 993 00:43:19,931 --> 00:43:22,298 I struggle with this. I struggle. 994 00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:23,399 I ask michele. 995 00:43:23,401 --> 00:43:24,867 I say, "michele, what do you want me to do? 996 00:43:24,869 --> 00:43:27,937 "what do I do with this child of yours?" 997 00:43:27,939 --> 00:43:30,439 And I honestly believe that my daughter 998 00:43:30,441 --> 00:43:32,975 Would want her to be accepting responsibility 999 00:43:32,977 --> 00:43:34,944 For what she did. And she is. 1000 00:43:36,047 --> 00:43:38,280 I don't know if I forgive her, 1001 00:43:38,282 --> 00:43:40,149 But I understand her. 1002 00:43:43,287 --> 00:43:44,620 - That's all for this edition of 1003 00:43:44,622 --> 00:43:46,889 "dateline: Secrets uncovered". 1004 00:43:46,891 --> 00:43:49,425 I'm craig melvin. Thank you for watching.