1 00:00:19,671 --> 00:00:21,630 MAN: Testing, one, two, three. 2 00:00:21,804 --> 00:00:23,066 Roy Cohn, September 28. 3 00:00:27,940 --> 00:00:29,681 I was writing a profile of Roy Cohn. 4 00:00:33,076 --> 00:00:34,686 My recorder is going, and... 5 00:00:34,860 --> 00:00:37,515 I'm taking notes as well, and I said... 6 00:00:37,689 --> 00:00:39,169 AULETTA : 7 00:00:44,044 --> 00:00:46,220 COHN : 8 00:01:07,241 --> 00:01:09,243 REPORTER: Roy Cohn was called 9 00:01:09,417 --> 00:01:12,072 the most brilliant and influential lawyer in America. 10 00:01:12,246 --> 00:01:14,813 His specialty was power. 11 00:01:14,987 --> 00:01:17,425 And from the very beginning, he was flamboyant, 12 00:01:17,599 --> 00:01:20,341 he was ruthless and always controversial. 13 00:01:23,387 --> 00:01:26,303 ZIRIN: And he was like a caged animal. 14 00:01:26,477 --> 00:01:28,914 If you opened the door to the cage, 15 00:01:29,089 --> 00:01:30,525 he would come out and get you. 16 00:01:34,398 --> 00:01:37,445 MAN 1: Roy Cohn's contempt for people, his contempt for the law, 17 00:01:38,924 --> 00:01:41,449 was so evident on his face 18 00:01:41,623 --> 00:01:44,234 that if you were in his presence, 19 00:01:44,408 --> 00:01:46,802 you knew you were in the presence of evil. 20 00:01:55,898 --> 00:02:00,816 ZIRIN: And he saw himself as a political puppeteer. 21 00:02:00,990 --> 00:02:03,862 He could pull strings and bring people together. 22 00:02:04,036 --> 00:02:06,387 He could pull strings and make people do things. 23 00:02:11,174 --> 00:02:13,698 MAN 2: Roy Cohn is the common thread from Senator Joe McCarthy... 24 00:02:15,918 --> 00:02:19,051 all the way to his protégé, Donald Trump. 25 00:02:22,490 --> 00:02:26,972 ZIRIN: When you look at Cohn's life, you're shining a light... 26 00:02:27,147 --> 00:02:28,365 on demagoguery... 27 00:02:29,801 --> 00:02:31,412 hypocrisy... 28 00:02:31,586 --> 00:02:34,154 and the darkest parts of the American psyche. 29 00:02:37,113 --> 00:02:41,248 CROWD : USA! USA! USA! 30 00:02:41,422 --> 00:02:43,380 The Roy Cohn show, which is unbelievable. 31 00:02:58,700 --> 00:03:00,310 Now here's Roy Cohn, who appeared recently 32 00:03:00,484 --> 00:03:02,007 on the cover of Esquire. 33 00:03:02,182 --> 00:03:04,227 The title of that article, as I recall, sir, 34 00:03:04,401 --> 00:03:05,881 was "The Legal Executioner."Yeah. 35 00:03:06,055 --> 00:03:08,536 It went on to say that you are really a tough man 36 00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:12,757 and that at times you can...Tough, mean, vicious, so on. 37 00:03:12,931 --> 00:03:14,716 What does that kind of publicity do 38 00:03:14,890 --> 00:03:16,239 for your business in New York? 39 00:03:16,413 --> 00:03:17,327 Oh, it's fantastic. 40 00:03:17,501 --> 00:03:18,937 Uh, the worse the adjectives, 41 00:03:19,111 --> 00:03:20,504 the better it is for business. 42 00:03:20,678 --> 00:03:22,985 What are they looking for? What are they buying? 43 00:03:23,159 --> 00:03:25,117 Scare value. 44 00:03:25,292 --> 00:03:28,556 Going back, over a period of years, when I call somebody 45 00:03:28,730 --> 00:03:30,558 or write a letter or something like that, 46 00:03:30,732 --> 00:03:32,777 this is supposed to make them tremble and think, 47 00:03:32,951 --> 00:03:35,954 unless they act promptly and reasonably, 48 00:03:36,128 --> 00:03:40,655 that, uh, all sorts of terrible consequences are gonna flow. 49 00:03:43,135 --> 00:03:44,876 STONE: Roy's reputation in the courtroom 50 00:03:45,050 --> 00:03:49,577 was for such viciousness that merely retaining him 51 00:03:49,751 --> 00:03:51,970 usually caused the other side in any dispute 52 00:03:52,144 --> 00:03:54,059 to want to settle immediately. 53 00:03:54,234 --> 00:03:59,064 I hired Roy Cohn because he is a tough son of a bitch. 54 00:03:59,239 --> 00:04:00,979 If I can compare this with a Western, 55 00:04:01,153 --> 00:04:02,981 it's like bringing in a hired gun. 56 00:04:03,155 --> 00:04:04,156 MAN: That's right. 57 00:04:04,331 --> 00:04:05,070 My name is Roy Cohn. 58 00:04:09,074 --> 00:04:14,210 The way Roy Cohn practiced as an attorney, uh, was: 59 00:04:14,384 --> 00:04:18,519 "I don't care what the law is. I wanna know who the judge is." 60 00:04:18,693 --> 00:04:20,434 That's the way he worked, 61 00:04:20,608 --> 00:04:23,872 because that's how he manipulated the system. 62 00:04:24,046 --> 00:04:27,267 I would do anything to get my client to win. 63 00:04:27,441 --> 00:04:29,660 Yes, I would. That's my job. 64 00:04:29,834 --> 00:04:32,010 There isn't anything I would not do, 65 00:04:32,184 --> 00:04:34,012 because I believe there's only one answer 66 00:04:34,186 --> 00:04:36,580 in an adversary profession like law, 67 00:04:36,754 --> 00:04:39,366 and that is winning. 68 00:04:39,540 --> 00:04:45,241 And he did it in ways that were, you know, beyond Machiavellian. 69 00:04:45,415 --> 00:04:48,592 He was an amazing manipulator 70 00:04:48,766 --> 00:04:51,160 and often got his way as a result. 71 00:04:51,334 --> 00:04:53,597 REPORTER: What are they confiscating? 72 00:04:53,771 --> 00:04:56,034 COHN: Packets of white powder.But what was it? 73 00:04:56,208 --> 00:04:57,427 Was it cocaine? 74 00:04:57,601 --> 00:04:59,908 It was not in his briefcase. 75 00:05:00,082 --> 00:05:02,867 They do not allege it was in his briefcase. 76 00:05:03,041 --> 00:05:06,218 I've read the complaint, and I was in court, and you weren't. 77 00:05:10,658 --> 00:05:13,661 COHEN: Roy was somebody that had no boundaries. 78 00:05:13,835 --> 00:05:16,403 If you were on the right side of him, it was great. 79 00:05:16,577 --> 00:05:18,796 If you were on the wrong side of him, it was terrible. 80 00:05:21,538 --> 00:05:25,760 MAN: He loved power. He loved pulling the levers of power. 81 00:05:25,934 --> 00:05:28,850 And he got a taste for that very early in his career. 82 00:05:44,474 --> 00:05:46,998 MANGAN: Here's a man that everybody is going to enjoy meeting. 83 00:05:47,172 --> 00:05:49,436 He's Roy M. Cohn, who is confidential assistant 84 00:05:49,610 --> 00:05:51,438 to the United States Attorney General, 85 00:05:51,612 --> 00:05:53,309 and, of course, they've been very busy 86 00:05:53,483 --> 00:05:56,486 prosecuting the Communists and Communist Party. 87 00:05:56,660 --> 00:05:57,879 Hi, Roy.How are you, Jack? 88 00:05:58,053 --> 00:05:59,837 What can you tell us, Roy, 89 00:06:00,011 --> 00:06:04,755 that we might not know from general newspaper coverage 90 00:06:04,929 --> 00:06:07,410 of the workings of the party in this country? 91 00:06:07,584 --> 00:06:10,065 What can we watch for as individual citizens? 92 00:06:10,239 --> 00:06:12,763 The Communists, the one thing we have to understand 93 00:06:12,937 --> 00:06:14,983 at the outset is that the Communist Party... 94 00:06:15,157 --> 00:06:16,854 COHN & HOOVER: ...is not a political party. 95 00:06:17,028 --> 00:06:18,900 HOOVER: It is a way of life. 96 00:06:19,074 --> 00:06:21,119 An evil and malignant way of life. 97 00:06:21,293 --> 00:06:24,296 It reveals a condition akin to disease, 98 00:06:24,471 --> 00:06:26,168 that spreads like an epidemic, 99 00:06:26,342 --> 00:06:29,301 and like an epidemic, a quarantine is necessary 100 00:06:29,476 --> 00:06:32,348 to keep it from infecting this nation. 101 00:06:32,522 --> 00:06:34,350 COHN: It's a criminal conspiracy. 102 00:06:34,524 --> 00:06:36,613 Its object is the overthrow 103 00:06:36,787 --> 00:06:38,485 of the government of the United States 104 00:06:38,659 --> 00:06:40,878 by force and violence... 105 00:06:41,052 --> 00:06:42,663 and institute the worst type dictatorship 106 00:06:42,837 --> 00:06:44,534 this world has ever known. 107 00:06:46,754 --> 00:06:49,974 ROBERTS: This was the height of the Cold War. 108 00:06:50,148 --> 00:06:54,283 People were genuinely terrified of a nuclear attack 109 00:06:54,457 --> 00:06:57,939 and of the so-called Communist menace. 110 00:06:58,113 --> 00:07:00,376 NEWSMAN: President Truman's dramatic announcement 111 00:07:00,550 --> 00:07:02,900 that Russia has created an atomic explosion 112 00:07:03,074 --> 00:07:05,033 sends reporters racing for the United Nations. 113 00:07:07,818 --> 00:07:10,778 Any statement about Truman's statement on the atomic bomb? 114 00:07:10,952 --> 00:07:13,563 Please, excuse me.Does Russia have the bomb? 115 00:07:13,737 --> 00:07:15,130 Won't you reply to me?What can we do? 116 00:07:17,175 --> 00:07:18,960 ZIRIN: It was a period of hysteria. 117 00:07:19,134 --> 00:07:20,831 You really start to see 118 00:07:21,005 --> 00:07:23,225 the paranoid style of politics unfolding. 119 00:07:23,399 --> 00:07:27,969 And Roy Cohn was right there. 120 00:07:28,143 --> 00:07:31,233 NEWSMAN: One of the greatest peacetime spy dramas 121 00:07:31,407 --> 00:07:33,888 in the nation's history reaches its climax 122 00:07:34,062 --> 00:07:36,847 as Julius Rosenberg and Mrs. Ethel Rosenberg, 123 00:07:37,021 --> 00:07:40,111 convicted of revealing atomic secrets to the Russians, 124 00:07:40,285 --> 00:07:43,375 enter the federal building in New York to hear their doom. 125 00:07:43,550 --> 00:07:45,639 He became one of the prosecutors 126 00:07:45,813 --> 00:07:47,902 in the trial of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. 127 00:07:51,558 --> 00:07:56,040 The appointment of Jewish prosecutors and a Jewish judge 128 00:07:56,214 --> 00:07:58,042 was to create the impression 129 00:07:58,216 --> 00:08:00,480 that it was not an anti-Semitic prosecution. 130 00:08:03,004 --> 00:08:07,182 He was only 23 years old, but Roy Cohn was ruthless. 131 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:09,401 Roy Cohn knew how to bully, 132 00:08:09,576 --> 00:08:11,839 and he was willing to do 133 00:08:12,013 --> 00:08:14,494 whatever he could to manipulate the result. 134 00:08:17,061 --> 00:08:20,761 Cohn felt he could ride the wave of anti-Communism 135 00:08:20,935 --> 00:08:22,850 to further his own career. 136 00:08:23,024 --> 00:08:24,939 And, in fact, his role in that case 137 00:08:25,113 --> 00:08:27,637 is subject to very serious ethical questions. 138 00:08:30,248 --> 00:08:33,164 According to Cohn, Judge Kaufman would call him 139 00:08:33,338 --> 00:08:36,994 from a phone booth outside Park Avenue Synagogue, 140 00:08:37,168 --> 00:08:40,694 where he urged Kaufman to impose the death penalty. 141 00:08:42,826 --> 00:08:46,003 It was a pathway to power for Kaufman, the judge, 142 00:08:46,177 --> 00:08:48,571 and for Roy Cohn. 143 00:08:48,745 --> 00:08:50,225 They seized the moment. 144 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:53,663 They pushed it as far as they could, and it went there. 145 00:08:53,837 --> 00:08:56,231 NEWSMAN: Judge Irving Kaufman sentenced both Rosenbergs 146 00:08:56,405 --> 00:08:58,102 to death in the electric chair. 147 00:08:58,276 --> 00:08:59,887 It is the first time in peacetime 148 00:09:00,061 --> 00:09:02,411 that such a death penalty has been handed down. 149 00:09:08,025 --> 00:09:11,246 ZIRIN: The country was polarized over the verdict. 150 00:09:11,420 --> 00:09:15,206 People took to the streets to protest, 151 00:09:15,380 --> 00:09:18,558 seeking clemency, which was not granted. 152 00:09:45,541 --> 00:09:48,022 ROBERTS: The government never had enough evidence 153 00:09:48,196 --> 00:09:51,286 to convict Ethel, and yet they convicted her, 154 00:09:51,460 --> 00:09:53,201 sentenced her to death 155 00:09:53,375 --> 00:09:55,595 and killed her in the electric chair. 156 00:09:58,598 --> 00:10:01,339 And it was a deal that Roy Cohn helped engineer. 157 00:10:09,434 --> 00:10:11,219 She just kept her hands open like this. 158 00:10:11,393 --> 00:10:12,873 Right. 159 00:10:22,752 --> 00:10:25,059 COHN: I think, if these people are made to understand 160 00:10:25,233 --> 00:10:27,975 that like any other criminals, when they violate our laws, 161 00:10:28,149 --> 00:10:29,759 they will be punished, that that will have 162 00:10:29,933 --> 00:10:31,282 a strong deterrent effect. 163 00:10:31,456 --> 00:10:33,415 And I think that the death sentence imposed 164 00:10:33,589 --> 00:10:36,070 by Judge Irving R. Kaufman in the atom spy trial 165 00:10:36,244 --> 00:10:37,854 had a very strong deterrent effect. 166 00:10:38,028 --> 00:10:39,900 I think it's been a very good year 167 00:10:40,074 --> 00:10:42,380 on the anti-Communist front in this country. 168 00:10:51,738 --> 00:10:54,175 ROBERTS: My father took me to the corner of our block 169 00:10:54,349 --> 00:10:57,395 to see the funeral procession go by. 170 00:11:00,703 --> 00:11:03,837 I'm not sure where he really stood on the Rosenberg case. 171 00:11:05,534 --> 00:11:06,970 But he wanted me to see this. 172 00:11:08,755 --> 00:11:10,582 This was a part of history. 173 00:11:14,195 --> 00:11:17,024 And it had an indelible effect on me... 174 00:11:18,547 --> 00:11:19,853 and on all of America. 175 00:11:32,692 --> 00:11:35,520 DOHERTY: Cohn makes his career on the backs of the Rosenbergs, 176 00:11:35,695 --> 00:11:38,045 showing that he's not just a smart, young punk, 177 00:11:38,219 --> 00:11:40,438 but that he's a go-for-the-jugular 178 00:11:40,612 --> 00:11:42,832 district attorney who can quite literally 179 00:11:43,006 --> 00:11:45,008 strap people into the electric chair. 180 00:11:48,664 --> 00:11:50,318 ANNOUNCER: Our guest on Meet the Press, 181 00:11:50,492 --> 00:11:53,887 ladies and gentlemen, is Roy M. Cohn. 182 00:11:54,061 --> 00:11:55,889 I'd like to put you on the receiving end 183 00:11:56,063 --> 00:11:58,108 of some questions you usually ask witnesses. 184 00:11:58,282 --> 00:11:59,327 COHN: All right. 185 00:11:59,501 --> 00:12:01,111 When and where were you born? 186 00:12:01,285 --> 00:12:04,680 I was born in New York City in 1927. 187 00:12:12,906 --> 00:12:14,646 GARY: Roy came from an unconventional family. 188 00:12:14,821 --> 00:12:16,387 His mother, Dora, 189 00:12:16,561 --> 00:12:18,999 was a privileged member of Jewish society. 190 00:12:20,609 --> 00:12:22,176 When Roy was born, 191 00:12:22,350 --> 00:12:25,222 the family consisted of the Bank of United States, 192 00:12:25,396 --> 00:12:27,050 which was a big name at the time, 193 00:12:27,224 --> 00:12:30,706 Van Heusen Corporation, Lionel Trains, 194 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,187 and my own grandfather, who had started Q-tips. 195 00:12:35,798 --> 00:12:39,367 The truth is, Dora was not a very attractive woman. 196 00:12:40,847 --> 00:12:42,152 Dora, according to my mother, 197 00:12:42,326 --> 00:12:44,502 was the ugliest girl in the Bronx. 198 00:12:44,676 --> 00:12:47,375 GARY: Not only was she not attractive physically, 199 00:12:47,549 --> 00:12:49,812 but she had a difficult personality. 200 00:12:51,292 --> 00:12:53,598 Nobody would marry Dora. 201 00:12:53,773 --> 00:12:59,256 So they cut a deal with a young lawyer named Al Cohn. 202 00:12:59,430 --> 00:13:02,607 If he married Dora, they would make him a judge. 203 00:13:06,568 --> 00:13:09,527 They had one child, and that child was Roy. 204 00:13:12,835 --> 00:13:16,447 DAVE: Al and Dora Cohn had a very frosty relationship. 205 00:13:16,621 --> 00:13:20,147 They both focused on Roy a lot, Dora even more than Al. 206 00:13:20,321 --> 00:13:24,325 She was the ultimate doting mother. 207 00:13:24,499 --> 00:13:26,893 ROIPHE: He was treated like a young prince. 208 00:13:30,331 --> 00:13:33,377 ZIRIN: Like any mother, she wanted a son who was perfect, 209 00:13:33,551 --> 00:13:36,946 and she had a son that was short and unattractive. 210 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,427 And she tried to correct his nose. 211 00:13:39,601 --> 00:13:42,865 And she wanted a different son from the son that God gave her. 212 00:13:45,694 --> 00:13:48,740 That imbued him a sense of shame about who he was, 213 00:13:48,915 --> 00:13:51,526 and his father gave him the language 214 00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:55,182 whereby he would express his shame in various ways, 215 00:13:55,356 --> 00:13:57,184 through law and politics. 216 00:13:57,358 --> 00:14:00,317 And Dora and Al together were a perfect storm. 217 00:14:03,059 --> 00:14:06,802 AULETTA: His father was a very active Democrat in the Bronx 218 00:14:06,976 --> 00:14:09,979 and would have a lot of powerful Democrats come to dinner. 219 00:14:10,153 --> 00:14:13,200 And when Roy was 9, 10, 11 years old, 220 00:14:13,374 --> 00:14:15,158 his father would insist that Roy sit 221 00:14:15,332 --> 00:14:17,160 at the table with adults. 222 00:14:17,334 --> 00:14:21,730 And Roy would partake in conversation. 223 00:14:21,904 --> 00:14:24,515 STONE: When Cohn was 10, his father brought him 224 00:14:24,689 --> 00:14:26,213 to meet President Roosevelt. 225 00:14:30,304 --> 00:14:32,741 Roy dared to opine to the president, 226 00:14:32,915 --> 00:14:35,309 who I'm sure loved hearing it even from a 10-year-old, 227 00:14:35,483 --> 00:14:38,225 "I support what you're doing, packing the Supreme Court." 228 00:14:42,142 --> 00:14:46,842 He made his first bribe when he was about 15 years old. 229 00:14:47,016 --> 00:14:50,411 He got a teacher out of a traffic ticket 230 00:14:50,585 --> 00:14:53,588 when he was in high school. 231 00:14:53,762 --> 00:14:56,112 Roy Cohn knew how the system worked, 232 00:14:56,286 --> 00:14:59,768 and he manipulated that system for the rest of his life. 233 00:15:02,989 --> 00:15:06,166 AULETTA : 234 00:15:07,776 --> 00:15:11,171 COHN : 235 00:15:39,242 --> 00:15:42,898 DAVE: Roy was the definition of a self-hating Jew. 236 00:15:43,072 --> 00:15:48,034 He wanted to show to the world that he wasn't Jewish. 237 00:15:48,208 --> 00:15:49,992 Many things he did over the years 238 00:15:50,166 --> 00:15:53,517 were aimed at proving that to people. 239 00:15:53,691 --> 00:15:55,519 BROOKS: When were you admitted to the bar? 240 00:15:55,693 --> 00:15:58,131 I was admitted to the bar in 1948. 241 00:15:58,305 --> 00:15:59,654 When you were...Five years ago. 242 00:15:59,828 --> 00:16:02,004 Five years ago. 21 years old.Yes, sir. 243 00:16:02,178 --> 00:16:05,529 DAVE: He graduated from Columbia Law School at 20. 244 00:16:05,703 --> 00:16:08,184 He was so young that he wasn't able to be admitted 245 00:16:08,358 --> 00:16:10,447 to the bar for another year, until he was 21. 246 00:16:10,621 --> 00:16:12,797 He was incredibly, incredibly smart, 247 00:16:12,972 --> 00:16:15,061 and he was an expert at taking advantage 248 00:16:15,235 --> 00:16:17,977 of every connection he had. 249 00:16:18,151 --> 00:16:19,717 I was in the Department of Justice 250 00:16:19,891 --> 00:16:21,763 for a period of five years, and I worked, 251 00:16:21,937 --> 00:16:24,331 during that period of time, very intensively 252 00:16:24,505 --> 00:16:26,289 with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 253 00:16:26,463 --> 00:16:29,553 ZIRIN: He attracted great attention 254 00:16:29,727 --> 00:16:31,991 with J. Edgar Hoover at the FBI. 255 00:16:32,165 --> 00:16:34,558 Hoover understood the value 256 00:16:34,732 --> 00:16:37,866 of planting certain information with the press. 257 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:43,089 Cohn served his master, passed on the information, 258 00:16:43,263 --> 00:16:45,874 and Hoover returned the compliment 259 00:16:46,048 --> 00:16:48,529 in recommending Cohn as chief counsel 260 00:16:48,703 --> 00:16:51,488 to Joseph McCarthy's notorious committee. 261 00:17:01,672 --> 00:17:03,283 Even if there were only one Communist 262 00:17:03,457 --> 00:17:05,198 in the State Department, that would still be 263 00:17:05,372 --> 00:17:06,938 one Communist too many. 264 00:17:09,463 --> 00:17:12,074 NEWSMAN: McCarthy almost single-handedly made the era 265 00:17:12,248 --> 00:17:15,164 one in which debate became charge and countercharge. 266 00:17:17,340 --> 00:17:19,342 ZIRIN: Cohn soared to national prominence 267 00:17:19,516 --> 00:17:21,953 as McCarthy's handmaiden, 268 00:17:22,128 --> 00:17:26,045 whispering in his ear in a conspiratorial fashion, 269 00:17:26,219 --> 00:17:28,395 advising him how to question witnesses 270 00:17:28,569 --> 00:17:31,702 before the congressional subcommittee. 271 00:17:31,876 --> 00:17:35,271 STONE: Roy's tactics and his approach via McCarthy 272 00:17:35,445 --> 00:17:37,056 make him one of the most 273 00:17:37,230 --> 00:17:38,927 controversial people in the country. 274 00:17:39,101 --> 00:17:40,494 I don't think you understood. 275 00:17:40,668 --> 00:17:42,496 The question was, "Do you know this man?" 276 00:17:42,670 --> 00:17:44,280 Can you look at the picture and tell us? 277 00:17:44,454 --> 00:17:46,152 I assume the answer's yes or no. 278 00:17:46,326 --> 00:17:48,937 MAN: The assumption is a bit mistaken in this instance. 279 00:17:49,111 --> 00:17:52,114 Tell us whether you know the man before you proceed. 280 00:17:52,288 --> 00:17:53,463 Do you know this man? 281 00:17:53,637 --> 00:17:55,117 Your statements about him 282 00:17:55,291 --> 00:17:58,773 have made it difficult for me and unsafe for me. 283 00:17:58,947 --> 00:18:01,080 And, of course, McCarthy, we think of him 284 00:18:01,254 --> 00:18:03,647 in terms of investigating Communists. 285 00:18:03,821 --> 00:18:07,477 But he and Cohn also investigated homosexuals. 286 00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:14,310 In the '40s and the '50s, being gay was such a terrible secret. 287 00:18:16,225 --> 00:18:17,705 And that was true for Roy. 288 00:18:20,534 --> 00:18:23,102 It's just hard for people today to imagine 289 00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:25,582 the damage keeping that secret did 290 00:18:25,756 --> 00:18:28,846 to people and their lives. 291 00:18:29,020 --> 00:18:31,110 And Roy certainly would have done everything 292 00:18:31,284 --> 00:18:34,417 to hide it in any way. 293 00:18:34,591 --> 00:18:37,899 In a kind of "he doth protest too much" manner, 294 00:18:38,073 --> 00:18:40,119 we have Cohn investigating 295 00:18:40,293 --> 00:18:42,686 these homosexuals very aggressively. 296 00:18:56,744 --> 00:19:00,269 So he's all over the press. Roy Cohn starts getting 297 00:19:00,443 --> 00:19:04,621 a political and a social profile. 298 00:19:10,932 --> 00:19:15,284 Cohn befriended many socially connected young men. 299 00:19:15,458 --> 00:19:17,634 Among them... 300 00:19:17,808 --> 00:19:22,117 G. David Schine, a wealthy hotel heir. 301 00:19:22,291 --> 00:19:25,990 Cohn was able to get Schine on McCarthy's committee. 302 00:19:29,864 --> 00:19:32,954 It's clear to me that Roy had an interest 303 00:19:33,128 --> 00:19:37,524 in this beautiful David Schine that might have been 304 00:19:37,698 --> 00:19:40,788 not entirely about his mental capacity. 305 00:19:44,574 --> 00:19:47,098 Roy and David Schine went on a buddy trip 306 00:19:47,273 --> 00:19:49,927 together across Europe, 307 00:19:50,101 --> 00:19:53,061 inspecting various facilities, their libraries, 308 00:19:53,235 --> 00:19:54,932 attempting to ferret out 309 00:19:55,106 --> 00:19:57,370 any signs of Communist infiltration. 310 00:20:01,330 --> 00:20:05,160 We are here to gather information, 311 00:20:05,334 --> 00:20:07,945 to double-check leads we have 312 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,122 and to see a vast number of individuals 313 00:20:11,297 --> 00:20:16,911 as long as they can contribute pertinent information or facts. 314 00:20:17,085 --> 00:20:18,826 I... We believe that the free world 315 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,045 is gonna win the Cold War and win this fight 316 00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:22,699 by one thing: the truth. 317 00:20:22,873 --> 00:20:24,397 Communists are dedicated 318 00:20:24,571 --> 00:20:26,573 to the overthrow of the United States, 319 00:20:26,747 --> 00:20:28,705 who are dedicated to wiping the United States 320 00:20:28,879 --> 00:20:30,446 off the face of the Earth 321 00:20:30,620 --> 00:20:33,188 and substituting the freedom we have in America 322 00:20:33,362 --> 00:20:35,582 for the spiritual and mental enslavement 323 00:20:35,756 --> 00:20:37,366 you have in the Soviet Union. 324 00:20:41,065 --> 00:20:44,591 Roy Cohn has spent most of his life studying law. 325 00:20:44,765 --> 00:20:47,115 And finally, in his mid-20s, 326 00:20:47,289 --> 00:20:49,944 he has the kind of romantic crush or compulsion 327 00:20:50,118 --> 00:20:51,859 that most people have 328 00:20:52,033 --> 00:20:53,774 for the first time in high school. 329 00:20:53,948 --> 00:20:55,993 But Roy Cohn happens to have it 330 00:20:56,167 --> 00:20:58,300 when he's chief counsel for the McCarthy committee. 331 00:21:00,563 --> 00:21:02,261 Joseph McCarthy himself said 332 00:21:02,435 --> 00:21:06,439 that he never saw Roy Cohn irrational about anything 333 00:21:06,613 --> 00:21:08,876 except G. David Schine. 334 00:21:10,878 --> 00:21:13,010 Roy liked to do favors for friends, 335 00:21:13,184 --> 00:21:15,186 even when it was inappropriate. 336 00:21:15,361 --> 00:21:19,495 So when his friend David Schine was drafted into the Army, 337 00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:21,976 Roy tried to get him special treatment. 338 00:21:22,150 --> 00:21:24,021 And he pulled all the strings he could pull. 339 00:21:24,195 --> 00:21:26,067 He was a string-puller. 340 00:21:26,241 --> 00:21:28,243 This is the way things worked in the Bronx, 341 00:21:28,417 --> 00:21:29,853 in Manhattan politics. 342 00:21:30,027 --> 00:21:31,986 It's not the way things worked in the Army, 343 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,076 and the Army was not gonna have any part of it. 344 00:21:35,250 --> 00:21:38,558 And that prompted the Army-McCarthy hearings. 345 00:21:42,866 --> 00:21:45,129 NEWSMAN: Early in 1954, Senator McCarthy said 346 00:21:45,304 --> 00:21:47,262 there were Communists in the United States Army 347 00:21:47,436 --> 00:21:49,264 and that they were being protected. 348 00:21:49,438 --> 00:21:50,831 The Army replied that his charges 349 00:21:51,005 --> 00:21:53,268 were a form of pressure to get special favors, 350 00:21:53,442 --> 00:21:56,402 including a direct commission for G. David Schine, 351 00:21:56,576 --> 00:22:01,189 a very special Army private and former McCarthy assistant. 352 00:22:01,363 --> 00:22:04,671 The Army-McCarthy hearings pit the United States Army 353 00:22:04,845 --> 00:22:08,022 against Joe McCarthy and Roy Cohn. 354 00:22:08,196 --> 00:22:11,504 Cohn's willing to do anything in order to get 355 00:22:11,678 --> 00:22:14,724 more quality time with G. David Schine. 356 00:22:14,898 --> 00:22:17,771 That's what the Army-McCarthy hearings were about. 357 00:22:17,945 --> 00:22:21,383 NEWSMAN: It was televised, and 20 million stunned Americans 358 00:22:21,557 --> 00:22:23,907 looked on for 36 days 359 00:22:24,081 --> 00:22:26,910 at the greatest political spectacle of our history. 360 00:22:27,084 --> 00:22:30,261 A new variable had entered our political life: television. 361 00:22:36,267 --> 00:22:39,009 Thank you very much, Mr. Welch, and thank you, Mr. Jenkins. 362 00:22:39,183 --> 00:22:42,361 You're welcome.Mr. Cohn, uh... 363 00:22:42,535 --> 00:22:45,364 I think you are conducting a little one-sided interview here, 364 00:22:45,538 --> 00:22:47,278 and that's perfectly all right with me. 365 00:22:47,453 --> 00:22:49,368 I'll tell you what I have to say on the... 366 00:22:49,542 --> 00:22:51,457 On the witness stand, under oath. 367 00:22:51,631 --> 00:22:53,937 All right, thank you. That was Roy Cohn 368 00:22:54,111 --> 00:22:56,157 and his opinion of the interview. 369 00:22:56,331 --> 00:22:58,289 DOHERTY: You can read the Army-McCarthy hearings 370 00:22:58,464 --> 00:23:01,162 as the original reality TV moment, 371 00:23:01,336 --> 00:23:05,079 because you have what is an open-ended drama 372 00:23:05,253 --> 00:23:07,255 with a cast of repeating characters, 373 00:23:07,429 --> 00:23:09,300 but you really don't know what's going to happen. 374 00:23:14,305 --> 00:23:15,872 Committee will please come to order. 375 00:23:18,571 --> 00:23:21,138 I understand the secretary of the Army is here 376 00:23:21,312 --> 00:23:23,053 as first witness. 377 00:23:25,578 --> 00:23:30,800 WELCH: Roy thinks that Dave ought to be a general 378 00:23:30,974 --> 00:23:34,238 and operate from a penthouse on the Waldorf Astoria, 379 00:23:34,413 --> 00:23:35,239 or words to that effect. 380 00:23:37,764 --> 00:23:41,724 I asked him what would happen if Schine got overseas duty. 381 00:23:41,898 --> 00:23:44,161 You were breaking the news gently, Mr. Adams? 382 00:23:44,335 --> 00:23:45,511 ADAMS: Yes, sir. That is right. 383 00:23:47,382 --> 00:23:50,864 I think I observe on Colonel Bradley's face 384 00:23:51,038 --> 00:23:53,519 a faint little look of pleasure. 385 00:23:53,693 --> 00:23:54,694 Do you, sir? 386 00:23:54,868 --> 00:23:56,130 I would say that Colonel-- I-- 387 00:23:59,612 --> 00:24:04,312 You and David Schine have been what we might call 388 00:24:04,486 --> 00:24:06,445 warm personal friends, have you not? 389 00:24:06,619 --> 00:24:08,359 He is one of my many good friends, sir. 390 00:24:08,534 --> 00:24:10,579 JENKINS: One of your many good friends. 391 00:24:10,753 --> 00:24:12,668 And in all fairness, Mr. Cohn, 392 00:24:12,842 --> 00:24:15,366 isn't it a fact that he is one of your best friends? 393 00:24:15,541 --> 00:24:17,020 We all have our best friends. 394 00:24:17,194 --> 00:24:18,935 There's no criticism of you on that account. 395 00:24:19,109 --> 00:24:20,589 No, of course not, sir. 396 00:24:20,763 --> 00:24:22,983 We have friends whom we love. I do. 397 00:24:28,031 --> 00:24:31,861 There were a lot of snide, homophobic comments 398 00:24:32,035 --> 00:24:36,213 that were leveled at both Cohn and Schine and at McCarthy. 399 00:24:36,387 --> 00:24:38,520 WELCH: Did you think this came from a pixie? 400 00:24:41,001 --> 00:24:43,003 Will counsel, for my benefit, define-- 401 00:24:43,177 --> 00:24:45,048 I think he might be an expert on that, 402 00:24:45,222 --> 00:24:47,616 what a pixie is?Yeah. Yes. I should say... 403 00:24:47,790 --> 00:24:49,923 I should say, Mr. Senator, 404 00:24:50,097 --> 00:24:53,187 that a pixie is a close relative of a fairy. 405 00:24:57,931 --> 00:25:00,455 With the word "fairy," the subtext 406 00:25:00,629 --> 00:25:03,502 of the Army-McCarthy hearings is spoken out loud. 407 00:25:09,029 --> 00:25:11,771 But it isn't true that you lose your head now 408 00:25:11,945 --> 00:25:15,296 when Dave Schine's name is mentioned and... 409 00:25:15,470 --> 00:25:19,213 That is... That is completely untrue, sir. 410 00:25:27,351 --> 00:25:29,353 ZIRIN: McCarthy launched a counterattack 411 00:25:29,528 --> 00:25:34,315 by bringing out the fact that one of Welch's associates 412 00:25:34,489 --> 00:25:37,927 had been a member of an alleged Communist organization. 413 00:25:38,101 --> 00:25:40,756 WELCH: Senator, may we not drop this? 414 00:25:40,930 --> 00:25:44,107 Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. 415 00:25:44,281 --> 00:25:46,457 McCARTHY: Let's...You've done enough. 416 00:25:46,632 --> 00:25:48,547 DOHERTY: Cohn knows that this is the moment 417 00:25:48,721 --> 00:25:50,810 that Joseph Welch is seizing 418 00:25:50,984 --> 00:25:54,248 to finally give the blast at McCarthy 419 00:25:54,422 --> 00:25:56,859 that everybody has been waiting for. 420 00:25:57,033 --> 00:25:59,253 And he starts squirming in his chair. 421 00:25:59,427 --> 00:26:03,344 He sort of tries to gesture to McCarthy to stop it. 422 00:26:03,518 --> 00:26:05,302 McCARTHY: Let's...You've done enough. 423 00:26:05,476 --> 00:26:09,045 Have you no sense of decency, sir? 424 00:26:09,219 --> 00:26:15,269 At long last, have you left no sense of decency? 425 00:26:21,797 --> 00:26:24,104 That caught the conscience of the country 426 00:26:24,278 --> 00:26:28,195 and ended with McCarthy being discredited. 427 00:26:28,369 --> 00:26:30,066 Indeed, they were both discredited 428 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,852 as a result of Joseph Welch's: 429 00:26:33,026 --> 00:26:34,767 "Have you no sense of decency?" 430 00:26:37,291 --> 00:26:40,468 The chair declares these hearings adjourned sine die. 431 00:26:52,828 --> 00:26:55,483 TRUMAN: McCarthyism. 432 00:26:55,657 --> 00:26:58,355 I'm not referring to the senator from Wisconsin. 433 00:26:58,529 --> 00:27:00,401 He's only important in that his name 434 00:27:00,575 --> 00:27:04,231 has taken on a dictionary meaning in the world. 435 00:27:04,405 --> 00:27:08,148 That meaning is the corruption of truth, 436 00:27:08,322 --> 00:27:10,411 the abandonment of our historical devotion 437 00:27:10,585 --> 00:27:12,282 to fair play. 438 00:27:12,456 --> 00:27:16,156 It is the abandonment of due process of law. 439 00:27:16,330 --> 00:27:18,114 It is the use of a big lie 440 00:27:18,288 --> 00:27:21,117 and the unfounded accusation against any citizen 441 00:27:21,291 --> 00:27:24,207 in the name of Americanism and security. 442 00:27:24,381 --> 00:27:26,166 It is the rise to power of the demagogue 443 00:27:26,340 --> 00:27:28,298 who lives on untruth. 444 00:27:28,472 --> 00:27:30,779 It is the spread of fear and the destruction of faith 445 00:27:30,953 --> 00:27:33,695 in every level of our society. 446 00:27:39,527 --> 00:27:42,008 AULETTA: What a demagogue does is throw out information 447 00:27:42,182 --> 00:27:44,053 that they know is salacious, 448 00:27:44,227 --> 00:27:48,841 attention-grabbing and headline-grabbing. 449 00:27:49,015 --> 00:27:51,670 And Roy proved that in the McCarthy period. 450 00:27:58,807 --> 00:28:01,418 ROBERTS: Roy Cohn knew how to take a bad situation 451 00:28:01,592 --> 00:28:04,204 and absolutely make the most of it. 452 00:28:04,378 --> 00:28:07,642 No matter what happens, no matter how defeated you are, 453 00:28:07,816 --> 00:28:11,733 no matter how deeply you wind up in the muck, claim victory. 454 00:28:11,907 --> 00:28:13,474 I can't help but feel 455 00:28:13,648 --> 00:28:16,390 that Roy Cohn has won a really great victory. 456 00:28:29,882 --> 00:28:32,972 DOHERTY: His persona as this slick, maybe a little oily, 457 00:28:33,146 --> 00:28:38,455 but really razor-sharp lawyer has been carved in stone. 458 00:28:38,629 --> 00:28:41,415 And that's what he's going to be for the rest of his career. 459 00:28:41,589 --> 00:28:44,287 NEWSMAN: No more shuttling between New York 460 00:28:44,461 --> 00:28:47,334 and Washington for Roy Cohn. The young lawyer, 461 00:28:47,508 --> 00:28:49,597 who befriended Private David Schine, 462 00:28:49,771 --> 00:28:51,860 has handed in his resignation as chief counsel 463 00:28:52,034 --> 00:28:54,167 to the Senate Permanent Investigation Subcommittee 464 00:28:54,341 --> 00:28:56,691 headed by McCarthy. The reason? 465 00:28:56,865 --> 00:28:58,693 He insisted that all members of the group 466 00:28:58,867 --> 00:29:02,044 want him to stay on, and this was not so. 467 00:29:02,218 --> 00:29:03,959 As for the future, Cohn says 468 00:29:04,133 --> 00:29:05,744 that he will wage a personal fight 469 00:29:05,918 --> 00:29:07,876 against Communism wherever he finds it. 470 00:29:24,153 --> 00:29:25,372 JOHNSTON: New York in the 1950s 471 00:29:25,546 --> 00:29:28,549 was a cutthroat place to make money. 472 00:29:28,723 --> 00:29:32,335 Mafia families operated pretty much as they wanted. 473 00:29:32,509 --> 00:29:34,990 Cops were on the take left and right. 474 00:29:35,164 --> 00:29:37,993 It was unbelievably corrupt at every level, 475 00:29:38,167 --> 00:29:40,213 right up to the very top in business. 476 00:29:40,387 --> 00:29:43,607 For Roy Cohn, this was Candy Land. 477 00:29:48,351 --> 00:29:51,093 I think he was trying to claw his way 478 00:29:51,267 --> 00:29:53,879 to the very top echelon of American society, 479 00:29:54,053 --> 00:29:55,315 one way or the other. 480 00:30:04,628 --> 00:30:07,675 Part of New York society, at that time... 481 00:30:07,849 --> 00:30:10,591 was preoccupied with getting the right table, 482 00:30:10,765 --> 00:30:13,855 going to the right place, being invited to the right function. 483 00:30:15,770 --> 00:30:18,642 The Stork Club, 21, 484 00:30:19,818 --> 00:30:20,993 Danny's Hide-A-Way. 485 00:30:23,256 --> 00:30:27,216 Roy always surrounded himself with womanizers 486 00:30:27,390 --> 00:30:29,349 and the gorgeous women who came with them. 487 00:30:33,657 --> 00:30:35,790 But Roy acted as though they weren't there. 488 00:30:37,052 --> 00:30:38,662 They were really decorations. 489 00:30:45,060 --> 00:30:47,715 He became an attorney in private practice. 490 00:30:49,935 --> 00:30:51,980 His partner was Thomas Bolan, 491 00:30:52,154 --> 00:30:55,070 who had close ties with the archdiocese of New York. 492 00:30:57,464 --> 00:31:00,641 Cohn had close ties with Cardinal Spellman. 493 00:31:00,815 --> 00:31:02,991 Of course, the position of the Church at that time, 494 00:31:03,165 --> 00:31:07,256 as it is now, was staunchly anti-Communist. 495 00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:09,650 They needed somebody to bring business into the firm, 496 00:31:09,824 --> 00:31:11,434 and that was Roy Cohn. 497 00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:17,005 BRENNER: He took his cutthroat D.C. tactics 498 00:31:17,179 --> 00:31:19,442 and started applying them in corporate America, 499 00:31:19,616 --> 00:31:22,445 at the expense of everyone in his path. 500 00:31:22,619 --> 00:31:26,623 And he couldn't come back from Joe McCarthy, 501 00:31:26,797 --> 00:31:29,278 so he just embraced it more. 502 00:31:32,978 --> 00:31:36,590 ANNOUNCER: What you are about to see is top secret. 503 00:31:36,764 --> 00:31:38,679 The first official test 504 00:31:38,853 --> 00:31:41,551 of the powerful new Lionel Turbo Missile Firing Car. 505 00:31:41,725 --> 00:31:45,947 DAVE: In the 1950s, Roy had his eye on a family business. 506 00:31:46,121 --> 00:31:49,298 His great-uncle was a Lionel, 507 00:31:49,472 --> 00:31:52,388 and he had founded Lionel Trains. 508 00:31:52,562 --> 00:31:55,261 It was a thriving company. 509 00:31:55,435 --> 00:31:57,654 ANNOUNCER: Remember, boy, you're the boss 510 00:31:57,828 --> 00:32:00,048 of the greatest action cars ever created 511 00:32:00,222 --> 00:32:02,877 when you own Lionel trains. 512 00:32:03,051 --> 00:32:05,097 DAVE: Roy, over the course of several months, 513 00:32:05,271 --> 00:32:07,795 acquired about 200,000 shares of stock, 514 00:32:07,969 --> 00:32:10,232 and, boom, he took over the company. 515 00:32:10,406 --> 00:32:12,321 It took not more than a few years 516 00:32:12,495 --> 00:32:14,019 until he drove it into the ground. 517 00:32:14,193 --> 00:32:16,108 He was so full of himself, 518 00:32:16,282 --> 00:32:19,111 and he did not care about the family. 519 00:32:19,285 --> 00:32:20,895 But he was known to people 520 00:32:21,069 --> 00:32:23,637 as the person who was in charge of the big company. 521 00:32:30,905 --> 00:32:34,213 For a period of years, the first years I was with him, 522 00:32:34,387 --> 00:32:36,041 we were a powerful law firm. 523 00:32:38,347 --> 00:32:40,784 Roy was very aggressive, very smart. 524 00:32:41,872 --> 00:32:44,179 A very capable lawyer. 525 00:32:44,353 --> 00:32:47,704 COHEN: He prepared at the last minute, 526 00:32:47,878 --> 00:32:51,534 but he had a perfect memory. 527 00:32:51,708 --> 00:32:54,146 VASSALLO: We'd get in the limousine going down to court, 528 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,062 and he'd say, "Now, tell me again, who's the client?" 529 00:32:57,236 --> 00:32:59,194 And he'd get up there like he'd been immersed 530 00:32:59,368 --> 00:33:01,109 in the case for years. 531 00:33:01,283 --> 00:33:02,981 He was just that good at what he did. 532 00:33:06,375 --> 00:33:10,466 VASSALLO: But the big picture was, uh, more complicated. 533 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,251 He just didn't play by the rule book, 534 00:33:12,425 --> 00:33:13,904 and you learned that very quickly. 535 00:33:18,083 --> 00:33:21,477 With time, Roy became more and more powerful, 536 00:33:21,651 --> 00:33:24,437 and more and more ruthless. 537 00:33:24,611 --> 00:33:26,743 He subjected everybody around him 538 00:33:26,917 --> 00:33:28,876 to potential criminal liability. 539 00:33:31,009 --> 00:33:33,924 For example, I was, I think, 25 years old. 540 00:33:34,099 --> 00:33:36,449 I had about $35 in the bank. 541 00:33:36,623 --> 00:33:39,408 And I was made the director of a bank in Chicago, 542 00:33:39,582 --> 00:33:44,587 as were some of our associates for other banks. 543 00:33:44,761 --> 00:33:47,068 I remember the first auditor's report, 544 00:33:47,242 --> 00:33:49,114 basically saying, "What happened to the money? 545 00:33:49,288 --> 00:33:50,941 Where's all the money?" 546 00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:53,074 There was always something 547 00:33:53,248 --> 00:33:55,120 of that criminal nature going on. 548 00:34:12,093 --> 00:34:14,226 AULETTA : 549 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,401 COHN :AULETTA: Okay. 550 00:34:18,273 --> 00:34:19,187 COHN: 551 00:34:25,715 --> 00:34:27,978 AULETTA: 552 00:34:30,851 --> 00:34:32,200 COHN: 553 00:34:39,860 --> 00:34:42,123 When I was a kid, I would go with my grandmother, 554 00:34:42,297 --> 00:34:46,519 because Roy would have her birthday party on his yacht, 555 00:34:46,693 --> 00:34:48,173 which was docked in the Hamptons. 556 00:34:48,347 --> 00:34:50,871 It was calledDefiance. 557 00:34:51,045 --> 00:34:55,005 One year, there was this mysterious fire onDefiance... 558 00:34:57,399 --> 00:34:59,532 which happened to be insured for a lot of money. 559 00:35:02,056 --> 00:35:04,972 One of the crew members was killed in that fire. 560 00:35:09,063 --> 00:35:10,978 AULETTA: There were serious questions 561 00:35:11,152 --> 00:35:14,808 about whether Roy had a hand in burning the boat 562 00:35:14,982 --> 00:35:16,505 in order to get the insurance. 563 00:35:19,029 --> 00:35:21,945 DAVE: Was it arson? Was Roy connected? 564 00:35:27,037 --> 00:35:28,561 AULETTA : 565 00:35:40,442 --> 00:35:41,704 COHN : 566 00:35:41,878 --> 00:35:44,968 AULETTA: 567 00:35:45,143 --> 00:35:48,015 COHN: 568 00:36:07,513 --> 00:36:09,689 Like a lot of things with Roy, 569 00:36:09,863 --> 00:36:13,171 those questions haunted that case and that... 570 00:36:13,345 --> 00:36:16,435 The mystery of what happened to the young man and that boat. 571 00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:22,136 VASSALLO: It just got to a point 572 00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:24,878 where they were crazier and crazier and crazier, 573 00:36:25,052 --> 00:36:26,880 culminating in his first indictment. 574 00:36:30,188 --> 00:36:35,845 COHN: It was a 10-count indictment, charging me with perjury, 575 00:36:36,019 --> 00:36:38,674 obstruction of justice and with a conspiracy 576 00:36:38,848 --> 00:36:42,374 to commit perjury and to obstruct justice. 577 00:36:42,548 --> 00:36:45,203 It was about a 48-page-long indictment. 578 00:36:45,377 --> 00:36:47,335 Everything bad that happened to Roy 579 00:36:47,509 --> 00:36:49,816 during my years at his firm 580 00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:52,340 was attributed to Robert Morgenthau, 581 00:36:52,514 --> 00:36:54,821 who was then the U.S. attorney. 582 00:36:54,995 --> 00:36:58,041 Cohn viewed all the three Morgenthau indictments 583 00:36:58,216 --> 00:37:00,043 as a vendetta. 584 00:37:00,218 --> 00:37:01,697 And it was a very public dispute. 585 00:37:05,875 --> 00:37:07,399 COHN: If there's a defendant around 586 00:37:07,573 --> 00:37:11,229 who hasn't been propositioned by Mr. Morgenthau's office 587 00:37:11,403 --> 00:37:13,883 to furnish some kind of information on me 588 00:37:14,057 --> 00:37:16,799 in return for a deal, I haven't met him. 589 00:37:16,973 --> 00:37:18,584 AULETTA: He's the only person I've ever met 590 00:37:18,758 --> 00:37:20,673 who actually enjoyed being indicted, 591 00:37:20,847 --> 00:37:23,328 because it gave him a platform to attack. 592 00:37:23,502 --> 00:37:25,634 A federal grand jury in New York today 593 00:37:25,808 --> 00:37:29,247 indicted Roy Cohn on charges of fraud and conspiracy. 594 00:37:29,421 --> 00:37:32,772 Cohn could be sentenced to 38 years in jail 595 00:37:32,946 --> 00:37:37,211 and fined $55,000 if convicted on all counts. 596 00:37:37,385 --> 00:37:39,300 I can't imagine the kind of pressure 597 00:37:39,474 --> 00:37:41,781 he was under while this was going on, 598 00:37:41,955 --> 00:37:44,479 but he never showed it. 599 00:37:44,653 --> 00:37:49,179 There was a confidence about him that was unshakable. 600 00:37:49,354 --> 00:37:52,748 ROBERTS: He managed to get out of legal difficulties 601 00:37:52,922 --> 00:37:56,448 in ways that almost no other lawyer could have. 602 00:37:56,622 --> 00:37:59,015 He was a legal magician. 603 00:37:59,189 --> 00:38:01,279 COHN: If Mr. Morgenthau were being honest, 604 00:38:01,453 --> 00:38:03,324 he could have done this at the same time 605 00:38:03,498 --> 00:38:05,239 he did the last indictment 60 days ago. 606 00:38:05,413 --> 00:38:07,763 But if he did it that way, he wouldn't have been able 607 00:38:07,937 --> 00:38:10,505 to get two smear news stories against me, 608 00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:12,072 which is just what he likes to do. 609 00:38:12,246 --> 00:38:14,204 And after this third indictment, 610 00:38:14,379 --> 00:38:16,555 I don't think there are too many people left around 611 00:38:16,729 --> 00:38:18,861 who don't realize 612 00:38:19,035 --> 00:38:23,953 that this all is Mr. Morgenthau's vendetta. 613 00:38:24,127 --> 00:38:28,349 ROBERTS: In his own trial involving the Fifth Avenue Coach Company, 614 00:38:28,523 --> 00:38:31,874 his lawyer had a heart attack. 615 00:38:32,048 --> 00:38:35,965 Roy got up and delivered his own defense. 616 00:38:36,139 --> 00:38:40,579 Seven hours of his own defense without looking at a note. 617 00:38:40,753 --> 00:38:45,061 ZIRIN: Cohn kept appealing to patriotism. 618 00:38:45,235 --> 00:38:48,282 He said, "I love the United States of America, 619 00:38:48,456 --> 00:38:50,110 and I can't believe 620 00:38:50,284 --> 00:38:52,982 that most of the people in this great country 621 00:38:53,156 --> 00:38:56,029 think that I could ever commit a criminal act." 622 00:38:58,074 --> 00:39:00,425 He's just lying to save his skin. 623 00:39:02,557 --> 00:39:05,778 It had a tremendous impact on the jury. 624 00:39:05,952 --> 00:39:08,824 The foreman of the jury came back the next day 625 00:39:08,998 --> 00:39:12,393 wearing an American flag in his lapel. 626 00:39:12,567 --> 00:39:13,916 And he was acquitted. 627 00:39:14,090 --> 00:39:16,223 I mean, he was really the Teflon fraud. 628 00:39:20,053 --> 00:39:23,839 This is just the most relieved and happy moment of my life. 629 00:39:24,013 --> 00:39:25,667 And the way I feel is 630 00:39:25,841 --> 00:39:27,365 the way I feel every day in my life, 631 00:39:27,539 --> 00:39:29,105 which is God bless America. 632 00:39:51,389 --> 00:39:54,217 ZIRIN: Roy Cohn understood the political value 633 00:39:54,392 --> 00:39:56,002 of wrapping yourself in the flag. 634 00:39:58,570 --> 00:40:00,093 It's not surprising 635 00:40:00,267 --> 00:40:03,313 that he would meet with reporters 636 00:40:03,488 --> 00:40:04,706 and say, "God bless America." 637 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:06,665 He always made very good copy. 638 00:40:28,556 --> 00:40:30,732 AULETTA: Cohn was, in part, powerful not just because 639 00:40:30,906 --> 00:40:34,257 he was a good lawyer and a killer lawyer. 640 00:40:34,432 --> 00:40:36,956 He was also powerful because he had press relationships. 641 00:40:37,130 --> 00:40:38,958 And the press was beholden to him 642 00:40:39,132 --> 00:40:43,266 because he was feeding them information. 643 00:40:43,441 --> 00:40:46,400 This gave him a dimension beyond just being a lawyer. 644 00:40:46,574 --> 00:40:51,057 Roy knew how to shape events that he was involved in 645 00:40:51,231 --> 00:40:53,842 through his manipulation of the press. 646 00:40:56,671 --> 00:40:58,586 JOHNSTON: Roy Cohn had learned his lessons 647 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,588 from the McCarthy era well. 648 00:41:00,762 --> 00:41:02,721 He learned the press will accurately quote 649 00:41:02,895 --> 00:41:04,505 whatever you say. 650 00:41:04,679 --> 00:41:07,029 The headlines and the top of the story, 651 00:41:07,203 --> 00:41:09,902 and a lot of people don't read beyond the first paragraphs, 652 00:41:10,076 --> 00:41:11,904 would be your version of events. 653 00:41:14,776 --> 00:41:18,693 Cohn had a coterie of reporters, 654 00:41:18,867 --> 00:41:23,655 sort of the predecessors and precursors of Fox News, 655 00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:25,613 to whom he would leak information. 656 00:41:29,748 --> 00:41:32,054 STONE: He would sit back at the dining-room table, 657 00:41:32,228 --> 00:41:34,056 and he would actually dictate copy 658 00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:36,668 for both the New York Post and the Daily News. 659 00:41:36,842 --> 00:41:39,801 "Period, paragraph, new paragraph, 660 00:41:39,975 --> 00:41:42,369 comma, exclamation point." 661 00:41:42,543 --> 00:41:44,153 I've never seen anybody do that. 662 00:41:50,029 --> 00:41:54,512 From the very beginning, he tried to co-opt me. 663 00:41:54,686 --> 00:41:58,951 He would give me horrible items about people, 664 00:41:59,125 --> 00:42:01,649 and I wouldn't pay any attention. 665 00:42:03,608 --> 00:42:07,002 But he did tell me a lot of incredible things. 666 00:42:14,662 --> 00:42:17,535 He was consumed with a driving force 667 00:42:17,709 --> 00:42:21,756 to make himself famous, to be with famous people, 668 00:42:21,930 --> 00:42:23,671 to make himself powerful. 669 00:42:25,499 --> 00:42:26,718 That was where the motives were. 670 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,304 GARY: In 1927, Roy's uncle, 671 00:42:48,478 --> 00:42:51,960 Bernie Marcus, owned the Bank of United States. 672 00:42:52,134 --> 00:42:53,483 The Depression comes, 673 00:42:53,658 --> 00:42:57,009 and, of course, many banks had trouble. 674 00:42:57,183 --> 00:42:59,925 GARY: When the stock market failed, 675 00:43:00,099 --> 00:43:02,580 the Bank of United States was the first big bank to fail. 676 00:43:06,148 --> 00:43:09,151 There was a run on the bank. 677 00:43:09,325 --> 00:43:13,025 The only banks big enough to cover this run 678 00:43:13,199 --> 00:43:15,549 were the Morgan banks or the Rockefeller banks. 679 00:43:15,723 --> 00:43:17,377 But they said something to the effect: 680 00:43:17,551 --> 00:43:20,032 "We don't care about the Jewish bank. Let them go." 681 00:43:20,206 --> 00:43:22,600 ROIPHE: There's crowds in the streets, the bank is closed, 682 00:43:22,774 --> 00:43:24,253 the doors are locked. 683 00:43:24,427 --> 00:43:26,952 The immigrants lost all their money. 684 00:43:27,126 --> 00:43:29,607 It was tragic in the Jewish community. 685 00:43:29,781 --> 00:43:32,218 It was tragic for the country. 686 00:43:32,392 --> 00:43:36,352 DAVE: My grandfather, Bernie Marcus, was hauled away to Sing Sing. 687 00:43:36,526 --> 00:43:38,790 And that was the ultimate disgrace. 688 00:43:41,314 --> 00:43:46,145 The social shame of that to the family was enormously deep. 689 00:43:46,319 --> 00:43:47,886 Thrown out of every country club, 690 00:43:48,060 --> 00:43:50,976 thrown out of the Harmonie Club. 691 00:43:51,150 --> 00:43:53,195 There was a lot wrong with the trial 692 00:43:53,369 --> 00:43:54,936 that ended up putting Bernie in prison. 693 00:43:55,110 --> 00:43:57,722 And Roy had said that if he were 694 00:43:57,896 --> 00:44:00,376 Bernie's attorney at the time, he would have gotten him off, 695 00:44:00,550 --> 00:44:01,726 and probably could have. 696 00:44:04,293 --> 00:44:06,121 DAVE: That failure of his Uncle Bernie 697 00:44:06,295 --> 00:44:08,558 was a huge part of what motivated Roy. 698 00:44:08,733 --> 00:44:10,648 He had to let people know 699 00:44:10,822 --> 00:44:14,913 that although his uncle had lost it, he had made it. 700 00:44:27,186 --> 00:44:29,318 COHEN: Roy had a huge standard of living. 701 00:44:29,492 --> 00:44:33,192 Boats, planes, the best table 702 00:44:33,366 --> 00:44:37,849 at the 21 Club or the Stork Club. 703 00:44:38,023 --> 00:44:41,026 And the firm paid, because they were all business-related. 704 00:44:43,811 --> 00:44:46,118 You know, Roy was never a partner in the firm. 705 00:44:46,292 --> 00:44:48,773 That didn't mean anything to him. 706 00:44:48,947 --> 00:44:51,950 He was Roy Cohn. I mean, he's the chief. 707 00:44:54,561 --> 00:44:56,432 DAVE: This was the '60s and '70s, 708 00:44:56,606 --> 00:44:59,914 when fame was becoming everything in New York. 709 00:45:00,088 --> 00:45:01,524 And this was part of his need 710 00:45:01,699 --> 00:45:04,832 to have these very wealthy friends. 711 00:45:05,006 --> 00:45:08,749 His need to have a Rolls-Royce and let everybody know it. 712 00:45:08,923 --> 00:45:12,492 COHEN: Actually, he had two Rolls-Royces. 713 00:45:12,666 --> 00:45:16,061 One that was a convertible. He always wanted the sun. 714 00:45:16,235 --> 00:45:18,716 And to look like he just came out of Miami Beach. 715 00:45:21,675 --> 00:45:23,677 STONE: I think it was Aristotle Onassis who said: 716 00:45:23,851 --> 00:45:26,462 "You can never be too rich or too tan." 717 00:45:26,636 --> 00:45:30,640 Roy Cohn took this to heart. 718 00:45:30,815 --> 00:45:34,470 COHEN: He had a speedboat, and often during the summer, 719 00:45:34,644 --> 00:45:38,170 he would take a bunch of us up to 79th Street. 720 00:45:38,344 --> 00:45:42,348 Now, the Hudson River was so polluted in the late '60s. 721 00:45:42,522 --> 00:45:46,004 I mean, nobody would go 10 feet near the Hudson River. 722 00:45:46,178 --> 00:45:48,528 And he went waterskiing. 723 00:45:48,702 --> 00:45:50,530 And we went under the George Washington Bridge. 724 00:45:52,837 --> 00:45:54,055 It was perfect Roy Cohn. 725 00:45:54,229 --> 00:45:56,536 It was the way he lived, bigger than life. 726 00:46:06,502 --> 00:46:09,288 VASSALLO: Roy took a house in Mexico every year. 727 00:46:09,462 --> 00:46:13,205 And every time I would go there to meet with Roy, 728 00:46:13,379 --> 00:46:16,469 there'd be a knock on my door at the office, 729 00:46:16,643 --> 00:46:19,167 and his mother Dora would bring me 730 00:46:19,341 --> 00:46:23,432 some jockey shorts and cans of tuna fish. 731 00:46:23,606 --> 00:46:25,870 So Roy would have what he liked all the time. 732 00:46:28,524 --> 00:46:30,309 AULETTA: His mother took care of him. 733 00:46:30,483 --> 00:46:32,441 With her, it was, "Did you eat your breakfast?" 734 00:46:32,615 --> 00:46:36,141 "Don't listen to him. He's wrong. You're right, Roy." 735 00:46:36,315 --> 00:46:38,883 Bucking him up, always supporting him. 736 00:46:39,057 --> 00:46:41,668 He became a little boy around his mother. 737 00:46:41,842 --> 00:46:44,889 I gather he lived in fear of Dora knowing that he was gay. 738 00:46:45,063 --> 00:46:47,021 Now, that's an odd thing, 739 00:46:47,195 --> 00:46:48,718 because he was in his 30s and 40s, 740 00:46:48,893 --> 00:46:50,155 but Dora chose not to see it. 741 00:46:54,333 --> 00:46:58,250 After his mother died, things changed very rapidly. 742 00:46:58,424 --> 00:47:01,209 A fellow who drove his car disappeared. 743 00:47:01,383 --> 00:47:05,257 There was a new driver, much more handsome. 744 00:47:05,431 --> 00:47:07,781 And there was a new captain of the yacht, 745 00:47:07,955 --> 00:47:09,522 also much more handsome. 746 00:47:11,393 --> 00:47:13,918 ADAMS: Roy was hung up 747 00:47:14,092 --> 00:47:16,572 on a specific type. 748 00:47:16,746 --> 00:47:19,967 I was his epitome of looks, like, you know, the very... 749 00:47:20,141 --> 00:47:24,232 He liked blond-haired, you know, Nordic look, like David Schine. 750 00:47:27,714 --> 00:47:31,631 Even the lawyers he would hire-- They were straight, 751 00:47:31,805 --> 00:47:35,330 but they were that type of look. 752 00:47:38,333 --> 00:47:41,336 Roy and the law firm of Saxe, Bacon and Bolan 753 00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:45,036 moved into an Upper East Side townhouse. 754 00:47:45,210 --> 00:47:46,646 ROSENTHAL: On East 68th Street, 755 00:47:46,820 --> 00:47:49,257 which was an awfully fancy block. 756 00:47:49,431 --> 00:47:52,173 I believe it was between Madison and Park. 757 00:47:52,347 --> 00:47:54,349 The idea that it was an office 758 00:47:54,523 --> 00:47:57,439 and a residence was a little unusual. 759 00:47:57,613 --> 00:47:59,615 COHEN: You'd meet in the living room. 760 00:47:59,789 --> 00:48:02,227 Or you'd meet in his bedroom, which was, 761 00:48:02,401 --> 00:48:04,272 I think, on the fourth floor of the building. 762 00:48:04,446 --> 00:48:06,971 He'd be in a bathrobe, and he-- 763 00:48:07,145 --> 00:48:09,321 That's the way business was conducted. 764 00:48:09,495 --> 00:48:12,715 AULETTA: What I saw were two Cohns. 765 00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:16,719 In a suit and tie, he was Roy Cohn, killer lawyer. 766 00:48:18,156 --> 00:48:20,593 At his apartment... 767 00:48:20,767 --> 00:48:24,379 I remember thinking, this is a different Roy Cohn. 768 00:48:24,553 --> 00:48:26,164 He's letting himself be. 769 00:48:33,562 --> 00:48:35,564 My recorder is going, and I said: 770 00:48:35,738 --> 00:48:37,827 "Roy, let me ask you a question." 771 00:48:38,002 --> 00:48:41,831 AULETTA : 772 00:48:48,403 --> 00:48:50,362 AULETTA: Long pause. 773 00:48:50,536 --> 00:48:53,931 He didn't answer for seconds. I mean, maybe five, six seconds. 774 00:48:56,803 --> 00:48:58,500 COHN : 775 00:49:30,054 --> 00:49:32,795 AULETTA: But he didn't say he was, he didn't say he wasn't. 776 00:49:32,970 --> 00:49:34,754 But he squirmed, 777 00:49:34,928 --> 00:49:38,366 which gave me great amount of pleasure. 778 00:49:38,540 --> 00:49:41,630 Because in a way, I was doing to him, 779 00:49:41,804 --> 00:49:44,894 in this personal interview, what he had done to people 780 00:49:45,069 --> 00:49:47,549 in the McCarthy hearings, putting them on the spot. 781 00:49:47,723 --> 00:49:49,769 "Are you now, or have you ever been a Communist?" 782 00:49:53,033 --> 00:49:55,775 I wanna ask you about this. To me, the nicest thing... 783 00:49:55,949 --> 00:49:57,820 Let's be affirmative. 784 00:49:57,995 --> 00:50:00,780 The nicest thing that I have ever heard about Joe McCarthy 785 00:50:00,954 --> 00:50:03,522 was told me by Senator Flanders of Vermont, 786 00:50:03,696 --> 00:50:06,177 that he was a full-time homosexual. Is this true? 787 00:50:06,351 --> 00:50:07,787 No. I'm sure you think 788 00:50:07,961 --> 00:50:10,485 that merited a badge of honor, but it is not true. 789 00:50:10,659 --> 00:50:13,401 I'm getting to you in a minute, but what about Senator McCarthy? 790 00:50:13,575 --> 00:50:16,796 I mean, that's your favorite topic, I know that. 791 00:50:16,970 --> 00:50:20,017 By the way-- I know.Just aroused by the obvious. 792 00:50:20,191 --> 00:50:23,498 ZIRIN: He was a very hypocritical guy. 793 00:50:23,672 --> 00:50:26,632 He was engaged for a while to Barbara Walters. 794 00:50:26,806 --> 00:50:28,329 We're getting married when we're both 60. 795 00:50:30,157 --> 00:50:33,856 She and Roy had grown up together, 796 00:50:34,031 --> 00:50:36,772 and she never deserted him. 797 00:50:36,946 --> 00:50:40,124 But she was annoyed by Roy going around 798 00:50:40,298 --> 00:50:43,170 saying he was gonna marry her. 799 00:50:43,344 --> 00:50:45,433 She knew that was absurd. 800 00:50:49,959 --> 00:50:52,353 This is a guy who ostensibly was a multimillionaire, 801 00:50:52,527 --> 00:50:54,616 one of the most powerful people in New York. 802 00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:56,792 There was a Disney sign that said "Roy" on it 803 00:50:56,966 --> 00:50:58,577 on his bedroom door. 804 00:50:58,751 --> 00:51:00,492 The door opened-- I only saw it once, 805 00:51:00,666 --> 00:51:02,711 but the door opened, and there was a mirror. 806 00:51:02,885 --> 00:51:04,713 I didn't know that people had mirrors 807 00:51:04,887 --> 00:51:06,541 on the ceilings of their bedrooms. 808 00:51:06,715 --> 00:51:08,848 So there was a mirror there, a huge bed, 809 00:51:09,022 --> 00:51:11,851 and there were just people in and out all day long. 810 00:51:12,025 --> 00:51:13,809 SAFER: Which is also a kind of recreation room 811 00:51:13,983 --> 00:51:17,683 and office and gallery for his collection of frogs. 812 00:51:17,857 --> 00:51:21,904 Roy had a lot of miniature animals and stuffed animals 813 00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:23,732 and things that... 814 00:51:23,906 --> 00:51:27,475 In his apartment that you wouldn't expect... 815 00:51:27,649 --> 00:51:29,564 a killer lawyer to have. 816 00:51:29,738 --> 00:51:31,914 SAFER: He admits to a certain vanity, 817 00:51:32,089 --> 00:51:35,135 religious about doing his 200 sit-ups every day. 818 00:51:35,309 --> 00:51:36,919 All this while dictating 819 00:51:37,094 --> 00:51:39,661 to his male secretary, Vincent Millard. 820 00:51:39,835 --> 00:51:42,011 COHN: Did you remember I had a date with Barbara Walters? 821 00:51:42,186 --> 00:51:43,448 When is that?COHN: Today. 822 00:51:46,146 --> 00:51:48,888 Every time I had a meal with him, he didn't order very much, 823 00:51:49,062 --> 00:51:51,020 and sometimes he didn't order. 824 00:51:51,195 --> 00:51:54,415 With his fingers, he would take food off my plate. 825 00:51:54,589 --> 00:51:56,461 If you're Roy and you're always doing exercise 826 00:51:56,635 --> 00:51:58,289 and you're always staying thin, 827 00:51:58,463 --> 00:52:00,856 and you eat off somebody's plate, it doesn't count. 828 00:52:01,030 --> 00:52:02,684 It's like everything in his life. 829 00:52:02,858 --> 00:52:04,991 There was this image, and then there was reality, 830 00:52:05,165 --> 00:52:06,688 which totally contradicted it. 831 00:52:09,256 --> 00:52:11,954 STONE: He had a really bad facelift, 832 00:52:12,129 --> 00:52:13,739 with these enormous gashes, 833 00:52:13,913 --> 00:52:17,525 uh, and stitches on the side of his face. 834 00:52:17,699 --> 00:52:19,397 You'd say, "Roy, did you have surgery?" 835 00:52:19,571 --> 00:52:22,965 And he said, "No, not me. Why? I feel fine." 836 00:52:23,140 --> 00:52:26,404 So I mean, he would even deny that he'd had this surgery 837 00:52:26,578 --> 00:52:29,755 when he should have been home in bed with ice on it. 838 00:52:29,929 --> 00:52:32,192 He was very vain in that sense. 839 00:52:34,673 --> 00:52:36,849 DAVE: There was a strange contradiction about Roy. 840 00:52:37,023 --> 00:52:39,156 He was totally ugly 841 00:52:39,330 --> 00:52:41,941 and totally charismatic at the same time. 842 00:52:53,779 --> 00:52:55,650 AULETTA : 843 00:52:58,697 --> 00:52:59,785 COHN : 844 00:53:11,013 --> 00:53:16,280 The people that he had sex with were not very well-educated, 845 00:53:16,454 --> 00:53:19,718 did not come from good families. 846 00:53:19,892 --> 00:53:23,374 That was a separate part of his life. 847 00:53:27,943 --> 00:53:30,207 GARY: He had to have sex every day. Every day. 848 00:53:30,381 --> 00:53:32,383 And preferably with someone who was new. 849 00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:41,957 He took a lot of Valium. 850 00:53:42,131 --> 00:53:46,135 He'd get so frustrated with those childproof bottles. 851 00:53:46,310 --> 00:53:48,790 He'd always... "Can you open this thing?" 852 00:53:48,964 --> 00:53:50,792 And it wasn't, like, one pill. 853 00:53:50,966 --> 00:53:53,404 It was, like, just dump them in there and take them. 854 00:53:56,407 --> 00:54:00,106 In the end of the evening, I went to take my coat, 855 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,023 and it was, like, stuffed full of hundred-dollar bills. 856 00:54:04,197 --> 00:54:05,807 Every time I reached into a pocket, 857 00:54:05,981 --> 00:54:07,505 there was several hundred-dollar bills. 858 00:54:12,510 --> 00:54:14,163 GARY: When everyone left, 859 00:54:14,338 --> 00:54:17,428 I would go in and lay down on the bed with him, 860 00:54:17,602 --> 00:54:19,952 and, like, I'd look up at the mirror, 861 00:54:20,126 --> 00:54:22,346 and he would look up at the mirror, and we would talk. 862 00:54:25,436 --> 00:54:28,482 I asked him, "So are you the girl or the boy?" 863 00:54:28,656 --> 00:54:30,354 And he said, "I'm the girl." 864 00:54:33,835 --> 00:54:35,968 ADAMS: There were rumors that he was 865 00:54:36,142 --> 00:54:38,449 picking up male prostitutes all around the city. 866 00:54:47,980 --> 00:54:50,896 He was really a personality in disarray. 867 00:54:52,506 --> 00:54:54,465 A personality in anarchy. 868 00:54:57,337 --> 00:55:00,427 Which had no rules, it had no scruples, 869 00:55:00,601 --> 00:55:02,168 it had no boundaries. 870 00:55:04,605 --> 00:55:07,608 He was someone who lived on the edge. 871 00:55:07,782 --> 00:55:09,436 And he enjoyed living on the edge, 872 00:55:09,610 --> 00:55:11,395 because it was dangerous. 873 00:55:37,421 --> 00:55:40,075 ROBERTS: The power politics of New York, the favor bank, 874 00:55:40,249 --> 00:55:43,165 was very closely linked to organized crime. 875 00:55:43,340 --> 00:55:47,605 And this was a milieu in which Roy Cohn fit in perfectly. 876 00:55:47,779 --> 00:55:49,868 Tell me what direction.You got 50 people here... 877 00:55:50,042 --> 00:55:52,436 ZIRIN: Cohn began to represent mobsters. 878 00:55:52,610 --> 00:55:55,656 He represented all of the New York families 879 00:55:55,830 --> 00:55:57,702 that controlled La Cosa Nostra. 880 00:56:05,144 --> 00:56:07,320 NEWSMAN: Galante arrived at the federal courthouse 881 00:56:07,494 --> 00:56:09,540 in a long black limousine and walked inside, 882 00:56:09,714 --> 00:56:12,238 shielded from photographers by two of his daughters. 883 00:56:13,326 --> 00:56:14,936 GALANTE: Stop it. Please! 884 00:56:15,110 --> 00:56:17,330 Galante is now regarded by federal authorities 885 00:56:17,504 --> 00:56:19,506 as one of the most important men in the Mafia. 886 00:56:21,900 --> 00:56:24,468 WOMAN: Come on, Daddy, run!What are you doing here today? 887 00:56:26,818 --> 00:56:28,994 REPORTER: Turn around and roll, Frank. 888 00:56:29,168 --> 00:56:32,693 MAN: Come on, baby. Let's go!WOMAN: Stop pushing me! 889 00:56:37,959 --> 00:56:39,526 REPORTER: Are you Mr. Galante's attorney? 890 00:56:39,700 --> 00:56:40,962 Yeah.What is your name? 891 00:56:41,136 --> 00:56:42,877 Roy Cohn.Federal investigator said 892 00:56:43,051 --> 00:56:44,749 Mr. Galante is the boss of organized crime. 893 00:56:44,923 --> 00:56:46,751 Would that be a correct characterization, 894 00:56:46,925 --> 00:56:48,796 the godfather of the New York Mafia? 895 00:56:48,970 --> 00:56:51,669 From my experience, practically everything they've said 896 00:56:51,843 --> 00:56:54,149 is totally incorrect and inaccurate. 897 00:56:54,323 --> 00:56:56,369 They're not treating your client fairly? 898 00:56:56,543 --> 00:56:58,763 No, I just said it's just a total publicity stunt, 899 00:56:58,937 --> 00:57:01,374 or all of you wouldn't be here, right? 900 00:57:01,548 --> 00:57:03,289 What are you doing here today? 901 00:57:03,463 --> 00:57:04,725 I'm a lawyer. 902 00:57:06,118 --> 00:57:08,033 He was very clever 903 00:57:08,207 --> 00:57:10,949 in protecting his clients, by far and large, 904 00:57:11,123 --> 00:57:12,994 from long criminal sentences 905 00:57:13,168 --> 00:57:14,474 that would put them out of business. 906 00:57:18,652 --> 00:57:21,394 SUDLER: Roy was assigned by the Gambino Crime Family 907 00:57:21,568 --> 00:57:23,831 to represent John Gotti. 908 00:57:24,005 --> 00:57:27,139 When Gotti and a couple of his guys 909 00:57:27,313 --> 00:57:29,402 walked into a bar 910 00:57:29,576 --> 00:57:31,709 in front of a lot of witnesses 911 00:57:31,883 --> 00:57:35,060 and shot this guy in the head and killed him, 912 00:57:35,234 --> 00:57:37,845 Roy managed to get Gotti off. 913 00:57:38,019 --> 00:57:40,935 Instead of 25 to life on a murder, 914 00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:44,722 got him into some degree of manslaughter 915 00:57:44,896 --> 00:57:48,987 and Gotti ended up serving only two years in prison. 916 00:57:49,161 --> 00:57:51,511 Amazing that he did that. 917 00:57:51,685 --> 00:57:54,122 An excellent result for Gotti 918 00:57:54,296 --> 00:57:56,690 and a great injustice at the same time. 919 00:57:56,864 --> 00:57:59,998 As a result of that case, 920 00:58:00,172 --> 00:58:04,263 Roy had a perpetual client of the Mafia. 921 00:58:09,181 --> 00:58:10,922 NEWSMAN: Tony Salerno, recently indicted, 922 00:58:11,096 --> 00:58:13,968 has long been one of Roy Cohn's clients. 923 00:58:14,142 --> 00:58:17,450 Tony, you've read the charges in this indictment. 924 00:58:17,624 --> 00:58:19,974 Did you do any of those things to anyone? 925 00:58:20,148 --> 00:58:21,410 All false. 926 00:58:21,585 --> 00:58:23,935 ZIRIN: Cohn was more an advisor. 927 00:58:24,109 --> 00:58:27,721 He was the guy who whispered in the ear of the don 928 00:58:27,895 --> 00:58:29,810 and told him what to say, what to do. 929 00:58:29,984 --> 00:58:32,117 He was full of advice. 930 00:58:32,291 --> 00:58:34,772 COHN: What're you gonna do when you get to the country? 931 00:58:34,946 --> 00:58:36,469 Well, I planted peppers last week. 932 00:58:36,643 --> 00:58:37,775 Now I'm gonna plant tomatoes. 933 00:58:37,949 --> 00:58:39,820 SAFER: His name is Carmine Galante, 934 00:58:39,994 --> 00:58:41,866 the late Carmine Galante, 935 00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,086 who the papers said was the godfather of the Mafia. 936 00:58:45,260 --> 00:58:47,132 Think that had an influence on the judge, 937 00:58:47,306 --> 00:58:49,700 when he held that the Parole Commission was wrong? 938 00:58:49,874 --> 00:58:51,005 GALANTE: I think so. 939 00:58:51,179 --> 00:58:52,572 A farmer ought to be able to seed. 940 00:58:52,746 --> 00:58:54,139 I think so. 941 00:58:54,313 --> 00:58:56,968 It's very well known that that's what I do. 942 00:58:57,142 --> 00:58:59,100 SAFER: A few months after this meeting, 943 00:58:59,274 --> 00:59:02,190 he was gunned down as he sipped a glass of wine. 944 00:59:11,852 --> 00:59:13,637 NEWSMAN: Present for the service was Roy Cohn, 945 00:59:13,811 --> 00:59:15,682 who had been Galante's lawyer 946 00:59:15,856 --> 00:59:18,685 through many of the mobster's legal difficulties. 947 00:59:18,859 --> 00:59:21,296 I pass no moral judgment on Mr. Galante 948 00:59:21,470 --> 00:59:24,169 any more than I pass a moral judgment on anybody else, 949 00:59:24,343 --> 00:59:26,911 because that's for the Almighty to do, not for me. 950 00:59:27,085 --> 00:59:29,130 Do you have any idea why he was murdered? 951 00:59:29,304 --> 00:59:32,046 Uh, as somebody once said a long time ago is: 952 00:59:32,220 --> 00:59:34,658 "All I know is what I read in the papers." 953 00:59:38,183 --> 00:59:42,404 BRENNER: The Mafia was the entire power underbelly of the city. 954 00:59:42,579 --> 00:59:45,669 And Roy had all of the network at his disposal. 955 00:59:51,675 --> 00:59:53,546 DAVE: Steinbrenner would be on line one, 956 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,548 and Carmine Galante would be on line two, 957 00:59:55,722 --> 00:59:57,332 and some crazy Mafia boss 958 00:59:57,506 --> 00:59:59,900 who had a cement company would be on line three, 959 01:00:00,074 --> 01:00:02,294 and Roger Stone would be in the anteroom. 960 01:00:02,468 --> 01:00:05,036 And Roy wanted that attention. 961 01:00:08,909 --> 01:00:10,519 He was an only child 962 01:00:10,694 --> 01:00:13,000 whose mother doted on him every second. 963 01:00:13,174 --> 01:00:16,482 And he needed that attention years after she died. 964 01:00:21,530 --> 01:00:23,750 VASSALLO: There's a story about Dora 965 01:00:23,924 --> 01:00:25,752 that gives you a pretty good insight 966 01:00:25,926 --> 01:00:27,885 into Roy's relationship with his mother 967 01:00:28,059 --> 01:00:29,930 and into how Roy operated. 968 01:00:34,848 --> 01:00:36,807 Every Jewish family has its own Passover story, 969 01:00:36,981 --> 01:00:39,200 and our story is an unusual one. 970 01:00:42,029 --> 01:00:43,814 I was the youngest child, and as such, 971 01:00:43,988 --> 01:00:45,816 I had to ask the Four Questions. 972 01:00:45,990 --> 01:00:47,252 DAVE: First question was, 973 01:00:47,426 --> 01:00:49,384 "Why is this night different from others?" 974 01:00:49,558 --> 01:00:51,691 And Dora finally blurted out... 975 01:00:51,865 --> 01:00:53,693 "Why is this night different? 976 01:00:53,867 --> 01:00:55,739 Because the maid's dead in the kitchen!" 977 01:00:58,219 --> 01:01:04,008 Turns out the housekeeper passed away, was in the kitchen, dead. 978 01:01:04,182 --> 01:01:07,533 And in order not to disrupt the Passover dinner, 979 01:01:07,707 --> 01:01:09,622 Dora saw to it that the housekeeper 980 01:01:09,796 --> 01:01:11,668 was kept in the kitchen under the serving table. 981 01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,109 She was embarrassed about how it interrupted the Seder, 982 01:01:18,283 --> 01:01:20,546 not the fact that a life had been lost. 983 01:01:24,332 --> 01:01:26,595 DAVE: That's totally Roy's spirit. 984 01:01:26,770 --> 01:01:29,729 His lack of ethics, his lack of empathy. 985 01:01:29,903 --> 01:01:30,861 That came from Dora. 986 01:01:33,254 --> 01:01:35,256 For Roy, life was transactional. 987 01:01:35,430 --> 01:01:38,129 It was all about connections and accruing power. 988 01:01:41,741 --> 01:01:45,789 AULETTA : 989 01:01:45,963 --> 01:01:46,920 COHN : 990 01:02:37,884 --> 01:02:40,365 ROSENTHAL: The biggest business in New York then, 991 01:02:40,539 --> 01:02:42,933 and it probably still is now, was real estate. 992 01:02:43,107 --> 01:02:45,326 That's where the real power was. 993 01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:48,547 He represented a number of real-estate figures, 994 01:02:48,721 --> 01:02:52,116 among them Donald Trump. 995 01:02:52,290 --> 01:02:54,379 JOHNSTON: Donald Trump grows up in a household 996 01:02:54,553 --> 01:02:57,121 where his father Fred is deeply mobbed up. 997 01:02:57,295 --> 01:02:59,819 His business partner, Willie Tomasello, 998 01:02:59,993 --> 01:03:03,692 is an associate of the Gambino and Genovese crime families. 999 01:03:03,867 --> 01:03:06,347 So Donald comes to Manhattan to make a name for himself. 1000 01:03:06,521 --> 01:03:10,438 He naturally gravitates toward Roy Cohn, 1001 01:03:10,612 --> 01:03:14,007 the consigliere for the head of the Gambino family 1002 01:03:14,181 --> 01:03:15,966 and the head of the Genovese family. 1003 01:03:17,706 --> 01:03:20,535 Short answers or...? 1004 01:03:20,709 --> 01:03:22,886 INTERVIEWER: Whatever you'd like. It doesn't matter. 1005 01:03:23,060 --> 01:03:24,888 I'm not as long as Archbishop O'Connor, but... 1006 01:03:25,062 --> 01:03:26,019 No one is. 1007 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:29,675 Mr. Cohn, how did you meet Donald Trump? 1008 01:03:29,849 --> 01:03:34,680 I met him at a New York club called Le Club. 1009 01:03:34,854 --> 01:03:38,249 We were seated next to each other. We were introduced. 1010 01:03:38,423 --> 01:03:40,817 He was 23 years old then. He said, "Listen." 1011 01:03:40,991 --> 01:03:42,601 He said, "I've spent two days 1012 01:03:42,775 --> 01:03:45,778 with these establishment law firms about a case we have." 1013 01:03:45,952 --> 01:03:48,172 It was a civil-rights case or something. 1014 01:03:48,346 --> 01:03:50,391 "And they were all telling us, give up, 1015 01:03:50,565 --> 01:03:52,306 do this, sign a decree and all of that." 1016 01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,831 He says, "I followed your career, and you seem... 1017 01:03:55,005 --> 01:03:56,963 You're a little bit crazy like I am, 1018 01:03:57,137 --> 01:03:58,965 and you stand up to the establishment. 1019 01:03:59,139 --> 01:04:00,575 Can I come see you?" And I said, "Sure." 1020 01:04:02,751 --> 01:04:04,753 DAVE: The Justice Department was going after 1021 01:04:04,928 --> 01:04:06,494 Fred Trump and Donald Trump 1022 01:04:06,668 --> 01:04:09,367 for not letting blacks in their housing. 1023 01:04:09,541 --> 01:04:11,282 Rather than making a deal, 1024 01:04:11,456 --> 01:04:13,937 rather than admitting guilt, Roy said to Trump: 1025 01:04:14,111 --> 01:04:17,854 "You need to go full-bore after the Justice Department." 1026 01:04:18,028 --> 01:04:20,857 AULETTA: Roy Cohn was very clear what to do: attack. 1027 01:04:21,031 --> 01:04:24,817 Don't settle. Don't apologize. Attack. 1028 01:04:24,991 --> 01:04:27,864 Roy would always be for an offensive strategy. 1029 01:04:28,038 --> 01:04:29,778 Those are the rules of war. 1030 01:04:29,953 --> 01:04:31,955 You don't fight on the other guy's ground. 1031 01:04:32,129 --> 01:04:34,783 You define what the debate is gonna be about. 1032 01:04:34,958 --> 01:04:36,873 I think Donald learned that from Roy. 1033 01:04:37,047 --> 01:04:39,266 I learned that from Roy. 1034 01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,660 JOHNSTON: Roy Cohn began this whole new mode 1035 01:04:41,834 --> 01:04:45,577 of what you see today, of get off the issue, 1036 01:04:45,751 --> 01:04:47,100 attack law enforcement, 1037 01:04:47,274 --> 01:04:49,886 attack the government, attack the press. 1038 01:04:50,060 --> 01:04:54,064 Create phony issues so that you can totally change the debate. 1039 01:04:54,238 --> 01:04:56,240 Here's a little McCarthyism going on right now. 1040 01:04:56,414 --> 01:04:58,242 COHN: He shouldn't disclaim-- 1041 01:04:58,416 --> 01:05:02,072 Total inability to cope with any of these current topics. 1042 01:05:02,246 --> 01:05:04,030 He does it with great... With great... 1043 01:05:04,204 --> 01:05:05,858 Keep talking, Roy. Keep talking. 1044 01:05:06,032 --> 01:05:07,425 Great precision.Keep talking. 1045 01:05:07,599 --> 01:05:10,471 This is known as "filler." You know, what... You... 1046 01:05:10,645 --> 01:05:12,604 You throw mud, and then the filler goes on 1047 01:05:12,778 --> 01:05:14,780 until they've forgotten the point. 1048 01:05:14,954 --> 01:05:17,174 ZIRIN: They counterclaimed against the government 1049 01:05:17,348 --> 01:05:19,393 for $100 million. 1050 01:05:19,567 --> 01:05:22,701 Now, the counterclaim was soon dismissed, 1051 01:05:22,875 --> 01:05:25,225 but had the effect of keeping the opponent off balance. 1052 01:05:25,399 --> 01:05:28,054 We fought it, and we did extremely well. 1053 01:05:28,228 --> 01:05:31,492 For all practical purposes, we won the case together. 1054 01:05:31,666 --> 01:05:34,060 AULETTA: Trump settled, but that was a victory, 1055 01:05:34,234 --> 01:05:36,454 because he didn't admit he did anything wrong. 1056 01:05:36,628 --> 01:05:39,544 And it's very consistent with Roy's advice. 1057 01:05:39,718 --> 01:05:44,853 "Never admit you're wrong. Never apologize." 1058 01:05:45,028 --> 01:05:46,420 Settling is not an apology. 1059 01:05:46,594 --> 01:05:48,379 In fact, Trump, when he settles, 1060 01:05:48,553 --> 01:05:50,076 he oftentimes will cast the settlement 1061 01:05:50,250 --> 01:05:52,644 as a victory, not a defeat. 1062 01:05:52,818 --> 01:05:54,385 Ever since that day, 1063 01:05:54,559 --> 01:05:59,085 he knows I have the same kind of crazy fight in me 1064 01:05:59,259 --> 01:06:02,306 that he has in him, and he knows that... 1065 01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:04,525 He believes you can fight city hall. 1066 01:06:04,699 --> 01:06:06,919 I believe you can fight city hall. 1067 01:06:07,093 --> 01:06:09,095 And we both fought it together. 1068 01:06:09,269 --> 01:06:13,056 Cohn looked at Donald Trump as something of a protégé. 1069 01:06:13,230 --> 01:06:16,189 He saw him as a man 1070 01:06:16,363 --> 01:06:20,802 who was governed by the same sort of situational ethics. 1071 01:06:20,977 --> 01:06:24,023 They were cut from the same cloth, in many respects. 1072 01:06:25,807 --> 01:06:28,201 Roy Cohn begins teaching Donald: 1073 01:06:28,375 --> 01:06:31,465 "Here's how you keep law enforcement off your back. 1074 01:06:31,639 --> 01:06:34,338 Don't leave a paper trail. Don't keep a calendar. 1075 01:06:34,512 --> 01:06:37,080 Never do things in writing. 1076 01:06:37,254 --> 01:06:40,735 And if somebody gets onto you, rat out other people." 1077 01:06:40,909 --> 01:06:43,260 You're gonna have to start pushing these people a bit, 1078 01:06:43,434 --> 01:06:46,219 because it's getting ridiculous, as far as I'm concerned. 1079 01:06:46,393 --> 01:06:49,483 So start pushing, and start pushing as hard as possible. 1080 01:06:52,660 --> 01:06:55,707 Cohn taught Trump how to ingratiate yourself 1081 01:06:55,881 --> 01:06:57,665 with powerful people 1082 01:06:57,839 --> 01:07:00,190 and how to manipulate them for your own ends. 1083 01:07:15,422 --> 01:07:17,729 WOMAN: Roy, just hold on here.ALL: ♪ Happy birthday... ♪ 1084 01:07:17,903 --> 01:07:20,036 WOMAN: You have to make a very special wish. 1085 01:07:26,129 --> 01:07:28,435 ADAMS: It was like this funny game he played 1086 01:07:28,609 --> 01:07:32,222 that he could bring someone like me, 1087 01:07:32,396 --> 01:07:35,834 you know, to these total antigay 1088 01:07:36,008 --> 01:07:39,011 Republican stronghold of a party, you know? 1089 01:07:39,185 --> 01:07:41,100 And no one would say a word. 1090 01:07:48,499 --> 01:07:52,503 AULETTA: Roy Cohn's friends justified him as a friend. 1091 01:07:52,677 --> 01:07:54,113 They knew about the McCarthy years, 1092 01:07:54,287 --> 01:07:55,810 the Army-McCarthy hearings, 1093 01:07:55,984 --> 01:07:59,684 some of the dastardly things that Roy may have done. 1094 01:07:59,858 --> 01:08:01,207 But that was overwhelmed 1095 01:08:01,381 --> 01:08:03,688 by their feeling that he was their friend, 1096 01:08:03,862 --> 01:08:06,038 and genuine friend, and they cared about him. 1097 01:08:06,212 --> 01:08:08,519 I've tried to give loyalty, 1098 01:08:08,693 --> 01:08:11,087 and I've tried to give friendship, and I find in life, 1099 01:08:11,261 --> 01:08:13,654 when you extend friendship and you extend loyalty, 1100 01:08:13,828 --> 01:08:15,091 you get it back. 1101 01:08:19,704 --> 01:08:22,446 DAVE: He was the one who threw the great parties, 1102 01:08:22,620 --> 01:08:25,057 who knew Norman Mailer, who hung out with Andy Warhol. 1103 01:08:25,231 --> 01:08:27,103 All these people who were larger-than-life, 1104 01:08:27,277 --> 01:08:29,235 they were orbiting Roy. 1105 01:08:32,804 --> 01:08:34,675 EPSTEIN: Everybody came, mayors, 1106 01:08:34,849 --> 01:08:37,156 governors, police chiefs, firemen, 1107 01:08:37,330 --> 01:08:39,158 anybody from the newspaper. 1108 01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,423 Who didn't go? 1109 01:08:43,597 --> 01:08:45,599 ZIRIN: Cardinal Spellman would come. 1110 01:08:45,773 --> 01:08:47,949 Real-estate magnates would come. 1111 01:08:48,124 --> 01:08:49,516 Trump would go. 1112 01:08:49,690 --> 01:08:51,083 And there he would see 1113 01:08:51,257 --> 01:08:53,607 the leading politicians of New York City 1114 01:08:53,781 --> 01:08:56,088 who would be very helpful to him in his business. 1115 01:09:00,571 --> 01:09:02,355 JOHNSTON: He navigates this world 1116 01:09:02,529 --> 01:09:07,099 between the people who hang out at Sardi's and the 21 Club, 1117 01:09:07,273 --> 01:09:09,667 and this other world that has these mobsters, 1118 01:09:09,841 --> 01:09:11,321 and it creates a sort of glamour. 1119 01:09:13,627 --> 01:09:16,195 So Cohn is this bridge 1120 01:09:16,369 --> 01:09:19,198 between the legitimate world and the illegitimate world. 1121 01:09:30,731 --> 01:09:33,473 ZIRIN: Cohn was a legend in his own mind. 1122 01:09:33,647 --> 01:09:36,041 If you approach things that way, 1123 01:09:36,215 --> 01:09:39,653 pretty soon, the appearance contributes to the reality. 1124 01:10:01,849 --> 01:10:03,721 HASKELL: Everyone knows the famous legal eagle, 1125 01:10:03,895 --> 01:10:06,550 my pal and yours, Roy Cohn.Good evening, Nikki. 1126 01:10:06,724 --> 01:10:08,943 How are you?I'm fine. How are you? 1127 01:10:09,117 --> 01:10:11,119 Well, this is a very exciting occasion. 1128 01:10:11,294 --> 01:10:13,687 Here is Trump Tower. 1129 01:10:13,861 --> 01:10:15,820 Marble waterfalls, 1130 01:10:15,994 --> 01:10:17,735 the greatest stores in the world. 1131 01:10:17,909 --> 01:10:21,391 When something like this can be created in New York 1132 01:10:21,565 --> 01:10:24,785 and take the city by storm, it's a real event. 1133 01:10:33,620 --> 01:10:36,667 Donald Trump wanted to construct a building, 1134 01:10:36,841 --> 01:10:40,148 which is now known as Trump Tower, at Fifth Avenue 1135 01:10:40,323 --> 01:10:43,587 between 56th and 57th Street. 1136 01:10:43,761 --> 01:10:46,720 JOHNSTON: He got ahold of the Bonwit Teller department store, 1137 01:10:46,894 --> 01:10:48,374 this prime piece of real estate. 1138 01:10:50,289 --> 01:10:52,726 Donald hires, to tear down the building, 1139 01:10:52,900 --> 01:10:57,992 a Syracuse window-washing firm with no experience whatsoever. 1140 01:10:58,166 --> 01:11:03,128 And it uses 200 illegal immigrants from Poland. 1141 01:11:07,001 --> 01:11:09,003 And then they don't get paid. 1142 01:11:11,571 --> 01:11:13,443 ZIRIN: Buildings of that sort at the time 1143 01:11:13,617 --> 01:11:17,055 were made largely with structural steel, 1144 01:11:17,229 --> 01:11:21,581 because to make them out of concrete was quite costly 1145 01:11:21,755 --> 01:11:23,627 and also involved dealing with the Mob, 1146 01:11:23,801 --> 01:11:25,281 which controlled 1147 01:11:25,455 --> 01:11:29,154 the poured-contract industry in New York. 1148 01:11:29,328 --> 01:11:33,811 Strangely, Trump chose to make it out of concrete. 1149 01:11:33,985 --> 01:11:35,595 Now, why out of concrete? 1150 01:11:35,769 --> 01:11:40,731 Because Cohn introduced him to his Mafioso clients, 1151 01:11:40,905 --> 01:11:44,604 and it was through them that he was able to make the deal. 1152 01:11:44,778 --> 01:11:47,172 Everything about this project was corrupt. 1153 01:11:58,009 --> 01:12:00,011 COHN: Donald Trump is probably 1154 01:12:00,185 --> 01:12:02,622 one of the most important names in America today. 1155 01:12:02,796 --> 01:12:05,799 What started off as a meteor, 1156 01:12:05,973 --> 01:12:09,063 uh, mounting from New York and going upward 1157 01:12:09,237 --> 01:12:11,936 is gonna touch the rest of this country and parts... 1158 01:12:12,110 --> 01:12:13,677 Good parts of the world. 1159 01:12:13,851 --> 01:12:17,028 Donald just wants to be the biggest winner of all. 1160 01:12:18,943 --> 01:12:20,771 ROSENTHAL: Donald had the money, 1161 01:12:20,945 --> 01:12:23,513 and Roy had the balls and the shrewdness, 1162 01:12:23,687 --> 01:12:25,036 and also some of the connections 1163 01:12:25,210 --> 01:12:27,473 to move Trump beyond the world 1164 01:12:27,647 --> 01:12:31,738 of housing developments in Queens and Brooklyn. 1165 01:12:31,912 --> 01:12:34,567 And it was clearly mutually beneficial. 1166 01:12:34,741 --> 01:12:37,265 COHN: Let me tell you about this. 1167 01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:39,137 This is a picture of Donald and me, 1168 01:12:39,311 --> 01:12:42,880 in which he says, "Roy is my greatest friend." 1169 01:12:43,054 --> 01:12:44,751 And there's a letter from him. 1170 01:12:44,925 --> 01:12:48,364 He says, "Needless to say, your representation of me 1171 01:12:48,538 --> 01:12:51,323 with regard to the Trump Tower case was brilliant. 1172 01:12:51,497 --> 01:12:53,281 Everyone scoffed at our pursuit 1173 01:12:53,456 --> 01:12:56,023 of this difficult victory, saying it couldn't be done." 1174 01:12:56,197 --> 01:12:57,634 Now, here's a typical Donald Trump. 1175 01:12:57,808 --> 01:12:59,853 He's gotta come in with a crack at the end. 1176 01:13:00,027 --> 01:13:03,291 He says, "The skeptics, however, were at a disadvantage. 1177 01:13:03,466 --> 01:13:05,642 They never saw Roy Cohn in action, 1178 01:13:05,816 --> 01:13:08,688 especially when he really wants to win." 1179 01:13:08,862 --> 01:13:11,561 By the way, this picture hangs in my office 1180 01:13:11,735 --> 01:13:13,563 directly next to a picture I treasure 1181 01:13:13,737 --> 01:13:16,348 of the president and Mrs. Reagan. 1182 01:13:16,522 --> 01:13:17,131 Two of my favorites. 1183 01:13:21,832 --> 01:13:25,357 Roy was responsible, according to Roy, 1184 01:13:25,531 --> 01:13:28,795 for everything important that happened in the United States, 1185 01:13:28,969 --> 01:13:31,145 whether it's an election of a governor, 1186 01:13:31,319 --> 01:13:32,495 an election of a president. 1187 01:13:34,279 --> 01:13:36,281 SNYDER: If you had been attorney general 1188 01:13:36,455 --> 01:13:38,762 when Richard Nixon was in office during Watergate, 1189 01:13:38,936 --> 01:13:41,112 do you think you could have solved that problem? 1190 01:13:41,286 --> 01:13:43,680 I think Nixon could have solved the problem, Tom. 1191 01:13:43,854 --> 01:13:45,638 Or counseled him on how to solve it. 1192 01:13:45,812 --> 01:13:48,119 I think the problem could have been solved 1193 01:13:48,293 --> 01:13:50,774 very easily by getting rid of the tapes. 1194 01:13:50,948 --> 01:13:53,429 Roy Cohn's reach in American politics 1195 01:13:53,603 --> 01:13:55,082 is absolutely extraordinary. 1196 01:13:55,256 --> 01:13:57,084 He's got Richard Nixon as a connection 1197 01:13:57,258 --> 01:13:58,738 because Nixon's rise depended 1198 01:13:58,912 --> 01:14:02,916 on the whole anti-Communist fervor. 1199 01:14:03,090 --> 01:14:05,571 He has connections to Ronald Reagan, who cooperated 1200 01:14:05,745 --> 01:14:07,399 with the McCarthy-type investigations 1201 01:14:07,573 --> 01:14:09,836 in the early '50s. 1202 01:14:10,010 --> 01:14:14,667 Cohn became an important figure in Republican politics. 1203 01:14:14,841 --> 01:14:16,887 He was a registered Democrat, 1204 01:14:17,061 --> 01:14:19,542 yet he most closely identified with the political right. 1205 01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:24,808 STONE: In 1980, Reagan won the election 1206 01:14:24,982 --> 01:14:29,943 because Roy Cohn arranged for John Anderson, 1207 01:14:30,117 --> 01:14:33,947 who had challenged Reagan for the Republican nomination, 1208 01:14:34,121 --> 01:14:36,036 to be the liberal party nominee. 1209 01:14:38,648 --> 01:14:41,128 There's a three-way split in New York. 1210 01:14:41,302 --> 01:14:43,261 That three-way split allows Reagan 1211 01:14:43,435 --> 01:14:46,133 to win the electoral votes with 45 percent of the vote. 1212 01:14:50,834 --> 01:14:52,923 It was a setup, and it worked. 1213 01:14:53,097 --> 01:14:56,274 COHEN: I was present in his office when Nancy Reagan called him 1214 01:14:56,448 --> 01:14:59,930 and thanked him for getting her husband elected. 1215 01:15:02,889 --> 01:15:05,065 John Anderson wasn't the only political fix 1216 01:15:05,239 --> 01:15:06,763 Roy was responsible for. 1217 01:15:06,937 --> 01:15:09,287 He also torpedoed the vice-presidential campaigns 1218 01:15:09,461 --> 01:15:11,637 of Eagleton in '72... 1219 01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:16,555 and Ferraro in '84. 1220 01:15:16,729 --> 01:15:18,818 STONE: Roy was the one who made the link 1221 01:15:18,992 --> 01:15:21,212 between organized crime and her husband. 1222 01:15:21,386 --> 01:15:22,996 The New York Post and the Daily News, 1223 01:15:23,170 --> 01:15:25,129 as you might imagine, went to town. 1224 01:15:28,698 --> 01:15:32,571 Cohn saw himself as a political puppeteer. 1225 01:15:33,790 --> 01:15:36,967 He started an evolution. 1226 01:15:37,141 --> 01:15:40,144 This would certainly be the beginning 1227 01:15:40,318 --> 01:15:44,322 of the infiltration of the political-right media 1228 01:15:44,496 --> 01:15:46,237 into American government. 1229 01:15:49,153 --> 01:15:51,547 STONE: Rupert Murdoch and theNew York Post endorsement 1230 01:15:51,721 --> 01:15:56,900 is something that Roy Cohn works on every day for eight months, 1231 01:15:57,074 --> 01:15:59,642 mostly by giving Rupert Murdoch himself 1232 01:15:59,816 --> 01:16:01,992 a window into Reagan's campaign. 1233 01:16:05,735 --> 01:16:08,085 ZIRIN: It's not surprising that he could be 1234 01:16:08,259 --> 01:16:11,262 with Ronald Reagan and Rupert Murdoch, 1235 01:16:11,436 --> 01:16:15,179 who developed Fox News, in the Oval Office, 1236 01:16:15,353 --> 01:16:17,747 as though he engineered the entire relationship. 1237 01:16:21,489 --> 01:16:26,016 You can see what Cohn set into motion, 1238 01:16:26,190 --> 01:16:29,323 winding up with the type of political environment 1239 01:16:29,497 --> 01:16:30,716 we have today. 1240 01:16:38,724 --> 01:16:40,683 EPSTEIN: I can't think of anything else like him 1241 01:16:40,857 --> 01:16:42,162 in American history or anywhere. 1242 01:16:42,336 --> 01:16:46,558 People should have ignored him and put him in jail. 1243 01:16:46,732 --> 01:16:49,082 And here he is flying around in his own plane 1244 01:16:49,256 --> 01:16:51,171 to go have dinner at the White House. 1245 01:16:51,345 --> 01:16:52,259 Go figure that out. 1246 01:16:55,698 --> 01:16:57,874 COHN: I think the Reagan anticrime program 1247 01:16:58,048 --> 01:17:00,354 is gonna take the emphasis off 1248 01:17:00,528 --> 01:17:03,575 certain types of white-collar crimes, minor things... 1249 01:17:03,749 --> 01:17:06,056 That's good for you.Minor things and all that, 1250 01:17:06,230 --> 01:17:09,799 and put it on where the real root of the problem is, 1251 01:17:09,973 --> 01:17:12,540 violent crimes, so that the people of this country 1252 01:17:12,715 --> 01:17:14,891 are once again in control instead of the criminals. 1253 01:17:15,065 --> 01:17:16,936 Are you running for any office?No. 1254 01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:18,982 Have you been called by France 1255 01:17:19,156 --> 01:17:21,593 to restore the guillotine and conduct a campaign there? 1256 01:17:21,767 --> 01:17:24,204 No, but I'll tell you, I'd like to restore 1257 01:17:24,378 --> 01:17:26,816 capital punishment in the United States 1258 01:17:26,990 --> 01:17:29,427 so that when people are gonna kill a policeman 1259 01:17:29,601 --> 01:17:31,559 or people are gonna mug and kill an old person, 1260 01:17:31,734 --> 01:17:33,257 they're gonna think twice. 1261 01:17:36,434 --> 01:17:39,045 He did whatever he wanted. 1262 01:17:39,219 --> 01:17:42,570 And he felt he was good enough at everything 1263 01:17:42,745 --> 01:17:46,531 to get away with it, and he did for a very, very long time. 1264 01:17:46,705 --> 01:17:49,316 Roy Cohn has managed to stay out of jail all these years, 1265 01:17:49,490 --> 01:17:51,710 and I admire that. I'd like to have him for my lawyer. 1266 01:17:54,408 --> 01:17:56,062 STONE: Roy famously argued 1267 01:17:56,236 --> 01:17:59,718 that all of the expenses of his law firm were... 1268 01:17:59,892 --> 01:18:01,851 You know, were deductible. 1269 01:18:02,025 --> 01:18:04,288 The IRS did not see it this way. 1270 01:18:04,462 --> 01:18:08,771 Roy told me that the whole point of dealing with the IRS 1271 01:18:08,945 --> 01:18:12,905 was to die owing them as much as humanly possible. 1272 01:18:13,079 --> 01:18:16,866 The United States government filed a lawsuit against Roy Cohn 1273 01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:20,696 for failing to pay nearly $7 million in back taxes. 1274 01:18:20,870 --> 01:18:22,393 WALLACE: You are a tax avoider. 1275 01:18:22,567 --> 01:18:25,831 No, I'm not. I'm a tax avoider? We're all tax avoiders. 1276 01:18:26,005 --> 01:18:27,833 The president's a tax avoider. 1277 01:18:28,007 --> 01:18:29,922 You're more successful at it. 1278 01:18:30,096 --> 01:18:33,317 Don't blame me for your inadequacy. 1279 01:18:33,491 --> 01:18:36,799 Here was a guy who was so evidently crooked, 1280 01:18:36,973 --> 01:18:39,062 he was so evidently dishonest, 1281 01:18:39,236 --> 01:18:41,107 yet nobody was doing anything about it. 1282 01:18:43,806 --> 01:18:46,286 There were serious disciplinary complaints, 1283 01:18:46,460 --> 01:18:48,027 and they were sitting at the bottom 1284 01:18:48,201 --> 01:18:50,987 of the desk drawer for years. 1285 01:18:53,554 --> 01:18:55,382 AULETTA : 1286 01:19:07,481 --> 01:19:08,831 COHN : 1287 01:19:11,616 --> 01:19:13,226 Because I...AULETTA: But here... 1288 01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:15,141 Wait a minute.COHN: Let's stop there. 1289 01:19:15,315 --> 01:19:17,709 AULETTA: Okay, sure. 1290 01:19:17,883 --> 01:19:21,147 He was eventually disbarred for stealing from his own clients 1291 01:19:21,321 --> 01:19:23,323 and trying to defraud his own clients. 1292 01:19:33,812 --> 01:19:38,774 Ultimately, we disbarred him on the basis of four cases. 1293 01:19:38,948 --> 01:19:43,039 SEC brings a case against the Pied Piper yacht company. 1294 01:19:43,213 --> 01:19:45,215 Almost all the money from the company 1295 01:19:45,389 --> 01:19:47,434 has managed not to go to the creditors, 1296 01:19:47,608 --> 01:19:50,960 but they've gone to Roy Cohn and his partners. 1297 01:19:51,134 --> 01:19:53,092 Second, he stole from his client 1298 01:19:53,266 --> 01:19:55,355 by promising to pay her back 1299 01:19:55,529 --> 01:19:57,270 when he had no intention of paying her back, 1300 01:19:57,444 --> 01:19:59,446 and then lying about it. 1301 01:19:59,620 --> 01:20:03,146 And third, he tried to deceive a dying, incompetent man 1302 01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:06,714 into making him the executor of his will. 1303 01:20:08,934 --> 01:20:12,982 COHEN: One of Roy Cohn's major clients was Schenley, 1304 01:20:13,156 --> 01:20:16,942 a distributor of liquors and wines. 1305 01:20:23,296 --> 01:20:24,820 And Lew Rosenstiel, its chairman, 1306 01:20:24,994 --> 01:20:27,170 was a personal friend of Roy's. 1307 01:20:27,344 --> 01:20:30,782 Among the charges brought against Roy 1308 01:20:30,956 --> 01:20:33,567 were the fact that he had documents 1309 01:20:33,741 --> 01:20:35,961 executed in a hospital room 1310 01:20:36,135 --> 01:20:38,398 when Mr. Rosenstiel was not capable 1311 01:20:38,572 --> 01:20:40,444 of knowing what he was doing. 1312 01:20:47,016 --> 01:20:50,193 My dad had a stroke, and he was in a hospital in Miami. 1313 01:20:52,673 --> 01:20:57,287 These two people appeared at the hospital... 1314 01:20:57,461 --> 01:20:59,811 one of whom was wheeling the bed around 1315 01:20:59,985 --> 01:21:01,726 and fixing the covers. 1316 01:21:05,121 --> 01:21:09,038 It was then made clear to me that it was Roy Cohn, 1317 01:21:09,212 --> 01:21:12,519 and that Roy was having my father sign some papers 1318 01:21:12,693 --> 01:21:16,132 awarding himself as trustee of my father's estate. 1319 01:21:16,306 --> 01:21:17,785 NEWSMAN: The squibbly signature 1320 01:21:17,960 --> 01:21:20,005 at the bottom of the last will and testament 1321 01:21:20,179 --> 01:21:21,789 of multimillionaire Lewis Rosenstiel 1322 01:21:21,964 --> 01:21:24,444 purports to be that of the late Miami philanthropist, 1323 01:21:24,618 --> 01:21:26,533 designating attorney Roy Cohn, 1324 01:21:26,707 --> 01:21:28,492 Rosenstiel's granddaughter Kathy Finkelstein, 1325 01:21:28,666 --> 01:21:30,233 and her husband James as trustees 1326 01:21:30,407 --> 01:21:31,843 of a $50 million estate. 1327 01:21:32,017 --> 01:21:33,932 Other members of the Rosenstiel family 1328 01:21:34,106 --> 01:21:36,021 are contesting the will's authenticity. 1329 01:21:36,195 --> 01:21:37,718 His signature was illegible. 1330 01:21:37,893 --> 01:21:39,372 Scrolly sort of X, 1331 01:21:39,546 --> 01:21:43,159 and a little wandering down off the line. 1332 01:21:43,333 --> 01:21:46,075 There's no image on that line 1333 01:21:46,249 --> 01:21:49,208 that looks anything like any letter of the alphabet. 1334 01:21:49,382 --> 01:21:52,820 KABLER: I mean, it was ridiculous. 1335 01:21:52,995 --> 01:21:55,649 MAN : You were cited as dressing up as a male nurse 1336 01:21:55,823 --> 01:21:57,608 and getting a fraudulent codicil signed. 1337 01:21:57,782 --> 01:22:00,089 What's interested in it-- What's more interest-- 1338 01:22:00,263 --> 01:22:01,960 What was amazing was the judge said-- 1339 01:22:02,134 --> 01:22:05,616 Hey, mister, what's more interesting, 1340 01:22:05,790 --> 01:22:08,619 interesting to me, is how somebody like you, 1341 01:22:08,793 --> 01:22:11,274 who's aspiring to be one of the leaders of the future, 1342 01:22:11,448 --> 01:22:13,667 could have your facts so screwed up. 1343 01:22:13,841 --> 01:22:16,714 There was no-- Never any insinuation 1344 01:22:16,888 --> 01:22:19,717 that I could have dressed up as a male nurse 1345 01:22:19,891 --> 01:22:21,110 or anything like that. 1346 01:22:21,284 --> 01:22:22,938 And the charge you are referring to 1347 01:22:23,112 --> 01:22:26,245 was thrown out by the Bar Association in New York. 1348 01:22:26,419 --> 01:22:28,247 Why'd you appeal the case, Mr. Cohn? 1349 01:22:28,421 --> 01:22:30,467 Why do I have to appeal when I win? 1350 01:22:30,641 --> 01:22:32,034 Did you win? I thought you lost. 1351 01:22:32,208 --> 01:22:34,862 Yes, well, maybe you... You would've been disbarred 1352 01:22:35,037 --> 01:22:37,865 as a member of the Florida Bar.Oh, jeez. 1353 01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:39,824 LONDON: He was a liar. 1354 01:22:39,998 --> 01:22:42,653 There are a year and a half worth of hearings 1355 01:22:42,827 --> 01:22:44,220 in which he challenges everything 1356 01:22:44,394 --> 01:22:46,744 and tells the same lies all over again. 1357 01:22:46,918 --> 01:22:48,267 He makes the matter worse 1358 01:22:48,441 --> 01:22:50,313 and makes an application 1359 01:22:50,487 --> 01:22:54,099 to the D.C. Bar where he lied under oath. 1360 01:22:54,273 --> 01:22:57,102 He tells lies about the Rosenstiel codicil. 1361 01:22:57,276 --> 01:22:59,887 He tells lies about the Schlesinger. 1362 01:23:00,062 --> 01:23:02,890 He just tells the same lies over and over and over again. 1363 01:23:03,065 --> 01:23:08,461 If you see a pattern there, you're not foolish. 1364 01:23:08,635 --> 01:23:11,508 And if you have no conscience about-- 1365 01:23:11,682 --> 01:23:14,946 Or shame about whether you're telling an untruth 1366 01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:19,429 or you're using hyperbole, you get away with it. 1367 01:23:19,603 --> 01:23:21,692 ROBERTS: When he was about to be disbarred, 1368 01:23:21,866 --> 01:23:25,696 it was no surprise who shows up as character witnesses 1369 01:23:25,870 --> 01:23:27,089 for Roy Cohn, 1370 01:23:27,263 --> 01:23:29,917 but Barbara Walters... 1371 01:23:30,092 --> 01:23:32,746 William F. Buckley Jr... 1372 01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:35,445 Donald Trump. 1373 01:23:35,619 --> 01:23:37,838 The same people who he had cultivated 1374 01:23:38,013 --> 01:23:41,103 and who, in effect, had used him over decades. 1375 01:23:43,670 --> 01:23:47,631 LONDON: Thirty-seven witnesses testified. 1376 01:23:47,805 --> 01:23:50,329 You know what they all said under oath? 1377 01:23:50,503 --> 01:23:54,029 "Roy Cohn has an excellent reputation 1378 01:23:54,203 --> 01:23:57,032 in the community for integrity." 1379 01:23:57,206 --> 01:23:58,903 And they said that with a straight face 1380 01:23:59,077 --> 01:24:00,774 after taking an oath? 1381 01:24:00,948 --> 01:24:03,212 Man, that's power. 1382 01:24:03,386 --> 01:24:04,909 WALLACE: Here's what the Disciplinary Committee 1383 01:24:05,083 --> 01:24:06,389 of the Bar says about you. 1384 01:24:06,563 --> 01:24:09,044 Quote, "A total absence of moral character 1385 01:24:09,218 --> 01:24:10,654 and professional fitness. 1386 01:24:10,828 --> 01:24:14,571 A cruel public use of your illness. 1387 01:24:14,745 --> 01:24:17,226 Pleading for clemency for a dying lawyer 1388 01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:19,097 and showing up in court the next day." 1389 01:24:19,271 --> 01:24:20,577 They couldn't say it about me. 1390 01:24:20,751 --> 01:24:23,406 I never cited my illness as a reason for anything. 1391 01:24:23,580 --> 01:24:26,235 Anyone who knows me knows I don't plead, 1392 01:24:26,409 --> 01:24:28,150 and I'm not pleading in this case. 1393 01:24:28,324 --> 01:24:29,629 I don't like any of them. 1394 01:24:29,803 --> 01:24:31,631 I've called them a bunch of yoyos. 1395 01:24:31,805 --> 01:24:33,633 And there might be other lawyers 1396 01:24:33,807 --> 01:24:36,288 who have a guilty conscience or feel they have to crawl. 1397 01:24:36,462 --> 01:24:38,377 But I don't have a guilty conscience. 1398 01:24:38,551 --> 01:24:40,292 I'm not gonna crawl before this committee 1399 01:24:40,466 --> 01:24:41,641 or any committee like it. 1400 01:24:41,815 --> 01:24:43,730 He wouldn't plead to anything. 1401 01:24:43,904 --> 01:24:48,083 Roy Cohn went out and hired excellent lawyers. 1402 01:24:48,257 --> 01:24:51,347 But we had him. He wasn't getting out of this. 1403 01:24:55,046 --> 01:24:56,787 He was a pinned moth. 1404 01:25:03,924 --> 01:25:05,535 Roy gave a private dinner 1405 01:25:05,709 --> 01:25:07,972 for his closest friends and relatives every year. 1406 01:25:10,017 --> 01:25:12,716 And the one I was invited to 1407 01:25:12,890 --> 01:25:15,980 took place after he had been disbarred. 1408 01:25:16,154 --> 01:25:17,808 And when I got there, 1409 01:25:17,982 --> 01:25:21,377 this long table was set, and nobody came. 1410 01:25:24,380 --> 01:25:27,296 He had a lot of friends until he was disbarred, 1411 01:25:27,470 --> 01:25:29,167 and then he had no friends. They all ran away. 1412 01:25:33,302 --> 01:25:35,608 MAN : I wanna know why he's objecting 1413 01:25:35,782 --> 01:25:39,003 to the way people are treating him now. 1414 01:25:39,177 --> 01:25:42,354 Why don't he remember what he did, not only with McCarthy, 1415 01:25:42,528 --> 01:25:45,923 but with Fifth Avenue bus lines, Lionel Trains, 1416 01:25:46,097 --> 01:25:48,882 and is he proud of his record as an attorney? 1417 01:25:49,056 --> 01:25:49,970 I'll hang up.Okay. 1418 01:25:50,145 --> 01:25:51,972 Okay, the answer is yes. 1419 01:25:52,147 --> 01:25:53,931 I am proud of my record. 1420 01:25:54,105 --> 01:25:57,761 When you would try to get him to talk about Joe McCarthy 1421 01:25:57,935 --> 01:26:02,418 or the Army-McCarthy trials or that whole period, 1422 01:26:02,592 --> 01:26:06,770 J. Edgar Hoover, you couldn't get much out of him. 1423 01:26:06,944 --> 01:26:11,078 On the Rosenbergs, I asked him how he felt about it. 1424 01:26:11,253 --> 01:26:14,343 I told him I'd read the case, and he said, and I quote, 1425 01:26:14,517 --> 01:26:16,127 "If I could've pulled the switch, 1426 01:26:16,301 --> 01:26:19,435 I'd have done it myself." 1427 01:26:19,609 --> 01:26:22,351 That doesn't sound like remorse. 1428 01:26:22,525 --> 01:26:25,005 I think Roy was a hardliner to the end. 1429 01:26:25,180 --> 01:26:26,355 You feel pretty good. 1430 01:26:26,529 --> 01:26:28,748 I feel great. Why? 1431 01:26:28,922 --> 01:26:31,534 I mean, you were at death's door six months ago 1432 01:26:31,708 --> 01:26:32,622 three months ago? 1433 01:26:32,796 --> 01:26:34,972 They found I had liver cancer 1434 01:26:35,146 --> 01:26:36,539 and they found that... 1435 01:26:36,713 --> 01:26:41,631 Which spreads in strange directions. Tell me... 1436 01:26:41,805 --> 01:26:45,112 Are you in remission?I'm in total remission. 1437 01:26:45,287 --> 01:26:47,158 When I talk to friends and tell them 1438 01:26:47,332 --> 01:26:49,378 that I am doing a profile of Roy Cohn, 1439 01:26:49,552 --> 01:26:51,684 they say, "Ask him this, please." 1440 01:26:51,858 --> 01:26:55,340 And I'm sure you know what they tell me to ask you. 1441 01:26:55,514 --> 01:26:59,126 Do you have AIDS?Oh, no. 1442 01:26:59,301 --> 01:27:00,345 That's easy to answer. 1443 01:27:04,697 --> 01:27:08,092 DAVE: Peter Fraser, his companion, helped him everywhere. 1444 01:27:08,266 --> 01:27:10,094 Roy was forgetting things left and right, 1445 01:27:10,268 --> 01:27:11,965 which never had happened before. 1446 01:27:12,139 --> 01:27:14,359 And he looked at me with these pale blue eyes 1447 01:27:14,533 --> 01:27:16,970 and these hooded kind of eyes, 1448 01:27:17,144 --> 01:27:19,234 and quivering, and he said-- 1449 01:27:19,408 --> 01:27:20,887 I said, "They say you have AIDS." 1450 01:27:21,061 --> 01:27:22,454 And he said, "Who is they, 1451 01:27:22,628 --> 01:27:23,977 and what do they know about me?" 1452 01:27:27,198 --> 01:27:31,594 Even at the end, he refused to admit that he was gay, 1453 01:27:31,768 --> 01:27:33,726 and he refused to admit that he had AIDS. 1454 01:27:33,900 --> 01:27:35,728 It was almost hard for me to believe 1455 01:27:35,902 --> 01:27:38,296 because of the man I had grown to know. 1456 01:27:38,470 --> 01:27:41,995 GARY: It was a mistake for Roy to deny that he had AIDS. 1457 01:27:42,169 --> 01:27:44,650 It was a mistake to deny that he was a homosexual. 1458 01:27:44,824 --> 01:27:46,173 If he had come out and said: 1459 01:27:46,348 --> 01:27:47,958 "Look, I'm homosexual. I have AIDS. 1460 01:27:48,132 --> 01:27:49,394 We need to do something, 1461 01:27:49,568 --> 01:27:51,309 not just for me, but for the community," 1462 01:27:51,483 --> 01:27:54,312 he would have been a hero. Instead, he was a hypocrite. 1463 01:27:56,619 --> 01:27:58,925 And at the same time, he took advantage 1464 01:27:59,099 --> 01:28:01,798 of his connections to get special treatment. 1465 01:28:05,584 --> 01:28:07,673 The Reagan White House actually got him into 1466 01:28:07,847 --> 01:28:09,327 the National Institutes of Health 1467 01:28:09,501 --> 01:28:12,852 to do an experimental treatment that nobody could get into. 1468 01:28:13,026 --> 01:28:16,073 So here was President Reagan and all the people around him 1469 01:28:16,247 --> 01:28:18,554 basically denying there was an AIDS epidemic, 1470 01:28:18,728 --> 01:28:20,425 and yet Roy was flying down there 1471 01:28:20,599 --> 01:28:23,733 and going there a lot for this experimental treatment. 1472 01:28:23,907 --> 01:28:28,781 SMITH: And he acted like he was there on a mistake. 1473 01:28:28,955 --> 01:28:31,784 He didn't really have AIDS. 1474 01:28:31,958 --> 01:28:35,832 You know, he never gave up on his own myth. 1475 01:28:36,006 --> 01:28:39,531 Are you gonna win this one too? 1476 01:28:39,705 --> 01:28:42,882 You're darn right I am, Larry.Thanks for being with us, Roy. 1477 01:28:43,056 --> 01:28:45,058 I enjoyed it, and I hope not so much time goes 1478 01:28:45,232 --> 01:28:47,191 until I'm with you again. 1479 01:29:03,076 --> 01:29:05,470 Roy was incredibly loyal to friends. 1480 01:29:07,516 --> 01:29:09,518 And he was intensely loyal to Donald Trump. 1481 01:29:14,174 --> 01:29:15,959 Trump took his legal business 1482 01:29:16,133 --> 01:29:17,569 to somebody else when Roy had AIDS. 1483 01:29:17,743 --> 01:29:20,877 He stopped seeing Roy and calling Roy 1484 01:29:21,051 --> 01:29:23,662 and hanging out with Roy. 1485 01:29:23,836 --> 01:29:26,273 You know why people ask about AIDS and Roy Cohn? 1486 01:29:26,448 --> 01:29:29,668 Sure. Of course. Of course.They believe you're homosexual. 1487 01:29:29,842 --> 01:29:32,236 And that you simply have never acknowledged the fact. 1488 01:29:32,410 --> 01:29:33,716 And a good friend of mine, 1489 01:29:33,890 --> 01:29:35,979 and a good friend of yours, I should say... 1490 01:29:36,153 --> 01:29:37,981 Tell him, if he wants to admit anything, 1491 01:29:38,155 --> 01:29:39,330 he can, but it's a lie. 1492 01:29:39,504 --> 01:29:42,159 No, a good friend of mine who is a woman 1493 01:29:42,333 --> 01:29:45,771 says that she believes that Roy Cohn 1494 01:29:45,945 --> 01:29:50,559 wants to, in effect, come out of the closet. 1495 01:29:50,733 --> 01:29:52,430 "Come out of the closet" meaning, 1496 01:29:52,604 --> 01:29:54,563 make a very dramatic statement about... 1497 01:29:54,737 --> 01:29:56,173 Yeah, just acknowledge it. 1498 01:29:56,347 --> 01:29:58,654 There's certainly nothing horrible about it. 1499 01:29:58,828 --> 01:30:00,569 Mike, we've been here, we've been doing 1500 01:30:00,743 --> 01:30:04,660 a very intensive 20 minutes or more on me. 1501 01:30:04,834 --> 01:30:07,837 Um, I think you can see me. 1502 01:30:08,011 --> 01:30:10,274 I think you can see, and the audience can, 1503 01:30:10,448 --> 01:30:14,365 I ain't dying from nothing, to start with, number one. 1504 01:30:14,539 --> 01:30:16,846 Right. Right.Two, you asked me categorically. 1505 01:30:17,020 --> 01:30:20,719 And I tell you categorically, I do not have AIDS. 1506 01:30:20,893 --> 01:30:22,678 Where do these stories come from? 1507 01:30:22,852 --> 01:30:25,681 It's a cinch, Mike. Take this set of facts. 1508 01:30:25,855 --> 01:30:30,468 Bachelor, unmarried, middle-aged. 1509 01:30:30,642 --> 01:30:34,646 Well, young middle-aged, and, um... 1510 01:30:34,820 --> 01:30:38,911 Uh, then all the stories go back to the McCarthy/Schine days. 1511 01:30:40,522 --> 01:30:42,741 Schine was a bachelor too. 1512 01:30:42,915 --> 01:30:44,961 We were both bachelors.WALLACE: So was McCarthy. 1513 01:30:45,135 --> 01:30:47,093 COHN: Right, and so was McCarthy. 1514 01:30:50,227 --> 01:30:55,450 STONE: At that point, his phone calls are erratic. 1515 01:30:55,624 --> 01:30:57,234 They don't make much sense. 1516 01:30:57,408 --> 01:30:59,802 He tires very, very easily. 1517 01:31:02,369 --> 01:31:05,198 I called the hospital, I asked for his room, 1518 01:31:05,372 --> 01:31:08,158 and Tom Bolan answered the phone. 1519 01:31:08,332 --> 01:31:13,163 And I said, "Tom, I wanna see Roy." 1520 01:31:13,337 --> 01:31:16,949 And Tom said, "Don't come. It's too late. 1521 01:31:17,123 --> 01:31:20,039 He won't recognize you." He said he's... 1522 01:31:20,213 --> 01:31:26,437 And then I realized I had missed my chance to say goodbye. 1523 01:31:26,611 --> 01:31:31,181 WALLACE: If you had a chance to write your epitaph... 1524 01:31:31,355 --> 01:31:33,923 how would you like to be remembered? 1525 01:31:34,097 --> 01:31:36,229 Uh, I guess I would like to be remembered most... 1526 01:31:36,403 --> 01:31:38,797 Look, I... We know what my epitaph is gonna be 1527 01:31:38,971 --> 01:31:40,930 in all the papers.What's it gonna be? 1528 01:31:41,104 --> 01:31:46,544 It's gonna be "Roy Cohn dies, was McCarthy chief aide." 1529 01:31:46,718 --> 01:31:48,067 No matter what I do, good or bad, 1530 01:31:48,241 --> 01:31:49,852 for the rest of the years of my life, 1531 01:31:50,026 --> 01:31:51,375 that's what it's going to be. 1532 01:32:14,877 --> 01:32:17,488 My mother told me that she found a list 1533 01:32:17,662 --> 01:32:18,837 of Roy's career path. 1534 01:32:19,011 --> 01:32:21,187 It started out as prosecutor, 1535 01:32:21,361 --> 01:32:24,234 which he was right out of law school. 1536 01:32:24,408 --> 01:32:27,672 And then a series of political positions, 1537 01:32:27,846 --> 01:32:30,066 ending up with governor of New York. 1538 01:32:32,416 --> 01:32:35,811 He never reached the kind of public-policy power 1539 01:32:35,985 --> 01:32:38,770 that he had envisioned himself as having. 1540 01:32:38,944 --> 01:32:42,992 But it's undeniable that his impact on politics lives on. 1541 01:32:48,040 --> 01:32:51,435 ROIPHE: Roy was an evil... 1542 01:32:51,609 --> 01:32:54,569 produced by certain parts of the American culture. 1543 01:32:57,615 --> 01:33:01,053 There always is the possibility of another person 1544 01:33:01,227 --> 01:33:03,578 who cares not about our traditions 1545 01:33:03,752 --> 01:33:06,015 or our laws or our protections 1546 01:33:06,189 --> 01:33:07,843 who can come in and wreck it, 1547 01:33:08,017 --> 01:33:09,888 and wreck it for the weakest among us 1548 01:33:10,062 --> 01:33:11,977 and the most vulnerable. 1549 01:33:19,419 --> 01:33:24,294 ZIRIN: Power in the hands of someone who is that reckless 1550 01:33:24,468 --> 01:33:28,820 and that arrogant is a very dangerous thing.