1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,000 [ominous music playing] 2 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,640 [man] No matter what I do in life, 3 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,920 no matter how much good I've done, some people is gonna look at my case. 4 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:25,520 They're gonna look at my past. 5 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,920 And I'm always gonna be the monster that they think that I am. 6 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,360 And no, I'm not a monster. 7 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:36,640 I've never been a monster. 8 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,600 [music continues] 9 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,360 [man] I've been hearing I was crazy all my life. 10 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,120 I used to get angry, pissed off. 11 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:09,920 I don't think like that anymore. 12 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,480 I just roll with it. 13 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,840 [music fades out] 14 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:21,760 [eerie music playing] 15 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,080 [man 1] I think we could all be dangerous people. 16 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,920 [man 2] 17 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,040 [man 3] I'm not sitting here saying I'm innocent. 18 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,680 [man 4] I just murdered some guy in cold blood. 19 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,040 [music fades out] 20 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,200 [somber music playing] 21 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,360 [man] When I committed my crime, when I did what I did, 22 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:08,240 I felt nothing. 23 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,080 It didn't bother me. I just remember thinking, 24 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,920 "I just killed somebody. It's not that big of a deal. It's just a body." 25 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,000 [ominous music playing] 26 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,440 [Rex] At first, I thought I just had one victim. 27 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:32,680 And then I realized that… 28 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,120 I got a whole slew of victims. 29 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,000 [music builds, fades] 30 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,560 [melancholic music playing] 31 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,880 [Rex] I was born in Logansport, Indiana. 32 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,560 I guess you could say times were great back then. 33 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,280 I remember me and my brothers, we was really close. 34 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,040 I have an older brother named Larry, and I have a little brother named Doug. 35 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,720 Wherever one of us was at, all three of us was together. And if… [chuckles] 36 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,720 Uh, if one of us got in trouble, 37 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,400 my mother knew that the other two was involved. 38 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,960 Whether she caught us or not, we always tried to lie for each other. 39 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:28,520 We'd try to protect each other. 40 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,440 We was bonded pretty well. 41 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:34,800 [music fades out] 42 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,880 [somber music playing] 43 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:03,800 When we moved to Texas, uh, 44 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,800 it's pretty much when our… my mom fell apart. 45 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,960 Back in the '80s, I think she was a great mother. 46 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,440 She was joyful. She was happy. 47 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:18,880 [melancholic music playing] 48 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,040 But it was like when she lost my older brother, 49 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:23,440 then she lost everything. 50 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:27,920 And things just kind of spiraled out… out of control. 51 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,440 She, uh… She fell into drugs, alcohol. She took it really bad. 52 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,680 There was never any food in the house. 53 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,800 Most of the time, we had no running water. 54 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,320 Uh, we had no electricity, no heat during the winter. 55 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:48,680 Uh… 56 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,160 Then… pretty much the abandonments came along. 57 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,040 She would disappear for days, sometimes weeks at a time. 58 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:57,520 Um… 59 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,320 I guess you could say I was the one that took it the worst. 60 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,040 [music continues] 61 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,560 I didn't care that we didn't have no food. 62 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,320 I didn't care about anything. I just wanted… [chuckles] 63 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,000 I just wanted my mother to love me. 64 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:19,280 And, uh… [sniffs] 65 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,160 …she always seemed like, uh, she loved everybody else more than she did me. 66 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,440 [music fades out] 67 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,520 [foreboding music playing] 68 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,280 [Rex] We was probably back here in Indiana probably about four months. 69 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,160 My mom did what she always did. She up and disappeared. 70 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,960 Left, uh… Left me and my little brother with our father. 71 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,320 All's I can tell you about my father is, is that, uh, 72 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,720 he worked on the railroad for almost ten years. 73 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:09,880 He, uh… 74 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:15,920 And he was an alcoholic. 75 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,760 He was an abusive prick, is what he was. 76 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,640 And, uh… he started getting abusive, 77 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,720 started getting violent, mostly towards me. 78 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,520 I, uh… I tried to bond with him. 79 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,120 But I don't know. He always looked at me different. 80 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,240 He always treated me different. 81 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,880 Everything that he did to me, he blamed my mother for it. 82 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,760 He would always beat the shit out of me and then say it was my mother's fault. 83 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:52,920 I, uh… 84 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,200 I always wanted to be good, I always wanted to do good. 85 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,800 But, uh, for some reason, I was just… 86 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,080 Well, I don't know why, I was just angry, pissed off. 87 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,720 If I needed an escape, I'd go to my grandmother's. 88 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,040 [gentle piano music playing] 89 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,800 [Rex] The relationship with my grandmother was… 90 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,560 Actually, I would say exceptional. 91 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,240 She was a really great woman. 92 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,360 She was always in a great mood. 93 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,480 She was always perky, always excited, always happy to see me. 94 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,280 She was my safe haven. 95 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,120 She was my barrier between me and everybody. 96 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,400 [music fades out] 97 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,360 [troubling piano music playing] 98 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,920 [Rex] My late teens, early twenties was like, uh… 99 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,880 I want to say they were really great, 100 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,160 but they were bad at the same time. 101 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,920 I ended up, uh, falling into drugs. 102 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,920 [dark music playing] 103 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,520 [Rex] And, uh, I started out smoking pot, like a lot of people, and… 104 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,200 I was a pretty avid cokehead. 105 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,480 I'd smoke crack every now and then. Ate a lot of mushrooms, acid. 106 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,920 It didn't solve any of my problems. It didn't make any things better. 107 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,720 All's it did was… is that it just made me not care. 108 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,600 And the more I didn't care, then… the easier it was to deal with things, 109 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:47,000 the easier it was to cope. 110 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,080 [music continues] 111 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,320 [Rex] From about, uh, 23 and on, it was really inconsistent. 112 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,800 All my friends, my brothers, everybody had their kids. 113 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,440 They had their wives, their friends, and here I was, still the bachelor. 114 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,160 My life became nothing but about drugs and alcohol. 115 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,440 I had no food in my house. I felt… It was like being in my childhood again. 116 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,200 Uh, I didn't pay my bills. 117 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:26,600 I, uh… 118 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,160 I stayed consistent. I stayed fucked up. 119 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,000 [music fades out] 120 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,280 [apprehensive music playing] 121 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,760 [Rex] I thought everybody was out to get me. 122 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,960 If I saw somebody wave at me, or saw somebody peeping out the windows, 123 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,240 I would think that they was plotting on me. 124 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,320 My mindset at the time was, is that, "I need to go kill this motherfucker 125 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,360 and everybody that's in that house before he comes over and kills me." 126 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,000 My… My drugs, my alcohol was just taking over. 127 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:11,760 [music fades out] 128 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,200 [pensive music playing] 129 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,600 [geese squawking] 130 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,240 [Rex] That day started out, uh, like any other. 131 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,640 I was sitting around smoking pot. 132 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,880 And, uh, I started thinking about everything that was done to me. 133 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,000 The beatings, the abandonments, how my life was a failure. 134 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,840 And it set me off. 135 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:53,920 [foreboding music playing] 136 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,160 Just this rage that I couldn't control. 137 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,000 I popped open the Xanax and started chewing on 'em, 138 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,440 and, uh, I was trying to calm down. 139 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,920 So I start chugging beers, trying to smoke weed. 140 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,280 Or I was smoking weed and nothing seemed to be working. 141 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,680 I don't remember what other fucking pills I ended up chewing on, but… 142 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:25,040 Um… 143 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,400 I was just getting madder, and I was getting worse. 144 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,400 The rage and the hate that was in me, that was coming out, it was, uh… 145 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,680 I don't know, but I felt like everything that was going wrong in my life 146 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,800 was because of my past, and my past was because of my family. 147 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:47,320 I don't remember what happened, but I ended up dipping out, and, uh… 148 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,200 I took off heading towards my dad's house. 149 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,560 And I was gonna go kill my father. 150 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,160 [music fades out] 151 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,240 [ominous music playing] 152 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,200 [Rex] I came to that fork in the road, and as hard as I tried to go right, 153 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,040 something was veering me left, and then I realized that… 154 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,440 I need to go to my safe haven. 155 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,360 My grandmother's house. 156 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,480 "Because if I go to my grandma's, I'll see my grandma." 157 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:36,920 "Everything will be fine. I'll mellow out." 158 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,800 "Nothing ever bad happens there. It's, uh… It's my neutral grounds." 159 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,000 Uh, fuck. This is where it's gonna get bad. 160 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,320 [laughs] 161 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,040 Oh man. 162 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:56,800 That poor woman, fucking… 163 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,280 -[music crescendos] -[exhales] 164 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,360 [grim music playing] 165 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,480 [Rex] When I first walked in the door, 166 00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:12,040 she was excited to see me, and I was fucked up. 167 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,520 Man, I mean, I don't know how I was functional. 168 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,680 I remember it was around 11:30, midnight, when I looked at the clock, 169 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,080 and, uh, I was coming out of the bathroom. 170 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,280 I don't know if I opened the door too fast, or if I opened it too hard, 171 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:32,320 but I know that I scared her. 172 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,560 The rage just… hit instantly. We made eye contact and… 173 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,520 and I remember thinking that, "I have to kill her." 174 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,480 "She's got to die, and she's gonna be my first." 175 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,560 [ceiling fan whirring] 176 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,800 The next thing I know, there's a pair of shearing scissors in my right hand. 177 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,680 She never stood a chance. 178 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,200 [music builds] 179 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,000 I stood there and watched until I knew she was dead. 180 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:24,360 And, uh, I looked at her. 181 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,360 And I remember thinking, "I can't leave her laying on the floor." 182 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,480 So I scooped her up, and I carried her to bed 183 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,400 and… and I laid her in her bed, 184 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,640 and I wrapped her up in her blanket. 185 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,080 [laughs] 186 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,480 This is where it gets a little weird. But, uh… 187 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,400 I don't know why I did this weird shit either, but… 188 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,360 I climbed in bed with her, and I grabbed her arm, 189 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,280 and I pulled her arm over me, and I snuggled up next to her body. And… 190 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,200 went to sleep. 191 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,440 [music fades out] 192 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,240 [tense, rhythmic music playing] 193 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,920 [woman] This was the most bizarre case 194 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,320 that I had ever been involved in in my 35 years of law enforcement. 195 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:35,680 My name is Catherine Collins. 196 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,520 I was a Detective Lieutenant, um, with the Logansport Police Department. 197 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,800 I ultimately conducted the interview of Mr. Groves at the Cass County Jail. 198 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,000 As soon as we walked into that interview room, 199 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,360 the first thing that he said to us was, "You didn't disturb Grandma, did you?" 200 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,720 And we both felt that that was rather odd. 201 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,960 And then he started talking, 202 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,720 and it was almost like a struggle for him to even stop. 203 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,520 [Rex] she was there, and I grabbed ahold of her 204 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,200 and went fucking crazy on her. 205 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:14,960 - -I couldn't stop it. 206 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,440 I couldn't control myself. 207 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,320 It's kind of like where you're… You know, standing outside your body. 208 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,160 You're watching yourself do something. 209 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,160 I fucking remember thinking, "Why can't you stop?" 210 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,920 [Rex laughs] 211 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:32,320 [Catherine] It was really strange that we had somebody that literally was 212 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,440 pouring his guts out to us about what he had done. 213 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,080 And we hadn't even had a chance to investigate it yet. 214 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,840 We looked at each other when he started talking to us, like, "This guy is nuts." 215 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,160 I don't know. I just wanted to hurt somebody, I guess. 216 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,160 I'm not all there in the head, and I know it. 217 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,040 I need to see a psychiatrist or a shrink. 218 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,640 [Rex laughs] 219 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,680 Fuck it. Too late now, huh? 220 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:05,800 He told us all kinds of, um, information in regards to what had happened. 221 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,280 However, he couldn't provide us with a reason why he did it. 222 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:16,160 We absolutely knew that we were dealing with somebody with a mental health issue. 223 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:18,160 We absolutely knew that. 224 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,760 I kept thinking there, shit's running through my head. 225 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,560 "This is fucked up. I just killed my grandma." 226 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,840 "I don't have one bit of fucking sympathy, sorrow, no emotion. Nothing." 227 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,400 You know my grandma, she was the last of the elders of all my old elders? 228 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,000 - -And I just fucking… I killed her. 229 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:37,120 [Rex laughs] 230 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,360 [Catherine] We just don't typically interview somebody 231 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,920 that seemed like they almost enjoyed saying what they were saying. 232 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,520 And then it got even more bizarre. 233 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,080 [Rex] 234 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,240 I'm out to kill any and every motherfucker I can get my hands on. 235 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,440 I said, "I wanna go out, start picking motherfuckers off." 236 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,400 [Rex laughs] 237 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,560 [Catherine] He was able to tell us that after he had killed his grandmother 238 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,200 that his next intention the following morning was 239 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,080 he was going to go to his father's house and murder his father. 240 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,200 When I left Grandma's, I went and got me some cigarettes and headed for my dad's. 241 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:19,920 I was gonna go smack him over the head. 242 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,200 I was going to bash his head in with a ball-peen hammer. 243 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,880 [music fades out] 244 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,720 [somber music playing] 245 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:01,400 [woman] You don't ever want to think bad about somebody that was so close to you. 246 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,640 It just makes you question everything. 247 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,760 We always had a close relationship. Rex was always there. 248 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,680 All we had to do was call, and he would be there. 249 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,520 I am Courtney, and I am Rex's niece. 250 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,640 My uncle is 15 years older than I am. 251 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,240 When we were in school, we would always want him to pick us up 252 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,680 because he had the big Dodge truck, and he always blared Eminem. 253 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,960 And to us at the time, we thought it was cool. 254 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,880 And all the kids loved him because he was always fun. 255 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:44,320 He always joked around. 256 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,520 I mean, he was my everything. 257 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,760 He was my world at the time. 258 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,840 [music fades out] 259 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,880 This house right here is where we lived at, 260 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,160 where Rex came to that day. 261 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,240 [ominous music playing] 262 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,240 [Courtney] My mom was at home. 263 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:29,640 She knew something was going on 'cause he wouldn't stop, he was pacing. 264 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,160 And he started, you know, talking crazy. 265 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,680 He said that he… he killed somebody. 266 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:44,960 She didn't believe 267 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,240 that's what actually happened, but she didn't know what else to do. 268 00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:54,440 And he just had her take him to the police station. 269 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:55,840 That's when they found out he… 270 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,200 he did commit the crime that he said he did. 271 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:02,320 And that 272 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,040 is when it came out… 273 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:09,360 that his intentions were… 274 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,120 That he came to our house to… I mean, kill our family. 275 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,640 [music fades out] 276 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,920 [eerie music playing] 277 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,520 Makes you think about a lot, makes you question a lot. 278 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,080 You know, that day could have went a lot different. 279 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,720 How could somebody go from loving you and doing anything for you 280 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,800 to saying that they were going… 281 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:43,880 to intentionally kill you? 282 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,800 I mean, I talked to him just the day before it happened, 283 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,520 and we just had a regular conversation. 284 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,200 There was no signs that would make me think, you know, 285 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:01,840 something's about to happen. 286 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:04,560 Nothing was wrong. 287 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,560 [chilling crescendo] 288 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,120 [waves crashing] 289 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,200 [gentle melodic music playing] 290 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,640 [man] No part of it makes sense. 291 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,600 As a child, he was just as normal as me and you were. 292 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,920 My name is Douglas Groves, and my older brother is Rex Groves. 293 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:54,000 We were best friends. Always together, always exploring. 294 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,320 [fishing line whirs] 295 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:59,720 [Douglas] A lot of love. 296 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,880 Yeah, we had a great time growing up besides, you know… 297 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,040 the things that make it not so great. You know what I mean? 298 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,560 [music fades out] 299 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,200 [somber music playing] 300 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,920 [Douglas] My father was definitely abusive. 301 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,080 Blackout drunk shit, you know. 302 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,120 My… My mom, the same way. 303 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,120 It was hard, especially for Rex. 304 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,400 That was kind of something that I don't think 305 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,760 most kids our age were dealing with, you know what I mean? 306 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,840 [troubling music playing] 307 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,720 [Douglas] What transpired in Texas 308 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,240 was, uh, as you would say, the catalyst for… 309 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:09,960 the end result of this. 310 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,240 There was a time, and I can't say what age we were, 311 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,320 we were staying at my mom's friend's. 312 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,000 My mom was dating this guy. 313 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,600 Uh, at one point, 314 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,800 that old man ends up in the room laying on the other side of my brother. 315 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,960 And he touched my brother. 316 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,200 He was laying right beside me. 317 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,880 I would definitely call it molestation, given what I know now. 318 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,320 Rex never talked about it with anybody. 319 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,680 I told my mom, but my mom was so convinced 320 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,280 that this guy wasn't a fucking child molester. 321 00:24:57,360 --> 00:24:58,200 Uh… 322 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,120 She actually stayed with this pervert, we'll say. 323 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,280 I don't know how long after that 324 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,960 the abuse that my brother was dealing with went on. 325 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,680 It could've been a week. Could've been six months. 326 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,760 [music continues] 327 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:19,800 [deep breath] 328 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,080 Oh man. 329 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,280 [teary sniff] 330 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,600 [voice breaking] It's hard, because… 331 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,600 you don't ever wanna see somebody you love… 332 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:31,560 [sniffs] 333 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,480 …deal with something like that. 334 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:35,400 [sniffs] 335 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,720 I believe 100% that if that would have never happened, 336 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:45,720 he'd be right here. 337 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,640 [music fades out] 338 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,720 [disturbing music playing] 339 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,960 [Douglas] After we'd moved back to Indiana, I started seeing the changes. 340 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,280 Rex was probably about 13, 14, 15. Somewhere around there. 341 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,200 And the weirdness started coming along. 342 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,080 He said, "Bro, I've got these voices in my head 343 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,400 that are telling me to do bad shit." 344 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:17,680 "To hurt somebody." 345 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,680 I would say, uh, you know, "That's just your conscience, bro." 346 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,480 "We all have it." 347 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:25,680 Uh… 348 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:29,320 [sniffs] 349 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,520 [sighs] 350 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,560 "You're not any more crazier than 351 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,520 the people that live next door, you know what I mean?" 352 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:37,560 Uh… 353 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:39,720 [sniffs] 354 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:49,280 [Douglas] Over the years, I started to see a decline with the normal Rex. 355 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,640 He wasn't the same old brother that I had growing up. 356 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,000 I really feel like, uh, there was a mental disconnect. 357 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,880 I think this is all stemmed from the abuse, the… the… the molesting. 358 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:13,880 I didn't deal with that shit, 359 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,280 and I didn't murder anybody. You know what I mean? 360 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:18,720 He dealt with it, and he murdered somebody. 361 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,280 [music fades out] 362 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,360 [tense music playing] 363 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,360 [man] Doctors sometimes come to different conclusions, 364 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,960 and if I may, should come to different conclusions 365 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,640 based on seeing people at different times. 366 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,160 I reviewed the other doctor's report. 367 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,360 And his diagnostic impression was schizophrenia paranoid type, 368 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,640 but I did not come to that conclusion. 369 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,880 I did not see enough clear, consistent evidence of psychosis. 370 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,000 [music fades out] 371 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,400 I'm Dr. Don Olive. 372 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,360 I was appointed by the Cass County Superior Court 373 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,520 and the state of Indiana to complete a competency 374 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,680 and sanity evaluation on the defendant, Mr. Rex Groves. 375 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,440 [ominous music playing] 376 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,000 [Don] When friends understandably say they think the person is insane, 377 00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:59,720 uh, I'll say something like, 378 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,600 "I know what you mean, but not necessarily so." 379 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,560 "Legally speaking, insanity is… is a legal concept, 380 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,120 not a clinical concept." 381 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,360 When I met with Mr. Groves, 382 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,240 I didn't see any evidence of, for example, psychosis, delusions, or hallucinations 383 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,560 that may have rendered him legally insane at the time of the offense. 384 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,000 And unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct, 385 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,760 which is the way insanity's defined in the state of Indiana. 386 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,720 More broadly, he was just full of rage, right? 387 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,040 Angry at himself, angry at the world. 388 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,320 "Nobody loves me. I'm this hated, unloved person." 389 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,720 [music becomes tense rhythmic] 390 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,240 [Don] For that, among other reasons, 391 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,080 I diagnosed him with, uh, features of personality disorder, 392 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,840 namely antisocial and borderline personality disorder. 393 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,400 And when you look at that diagnostic history 394 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,560 combined with disinhibiting drugs, 395 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,000 to me, it's like adding gasoline to a fire. 396 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,400 But this appears to be, however horrendous, 397 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,000 a fairly isolated event in terms of the… the severity, 398 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,440 lethality of his offense. 399 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,840 So, in my opinion, he was not legally insane at the time. 400 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,200 [music continues] 401 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,520 [music intensifies, steadies] 402 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,680 [Don] Once a person is convicted and is sentenced to prison, 403 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,240 uh, they have access to medical treatment. 404 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,160 I believe that if Rex commits himself to that, 405 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,720 he could potentially do relatively well when released 406 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,280 because the vast majority of these folks sooner or later will be released. 407 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,480 [music becomes suspenseful] 408 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,480 [man] Rex was sentenced to 50 years in the Indiana Department of Corrections. 409 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,080 But unless he commits another crime while in prison, 410 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,240 Rex only has to do around half of that time. 411 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,480 [man] When he gets to that threshold, there's nothing anybody can do 412 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,200 to stop him from being released, and that includes the parole board 413 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,640 or anybody else who might be concerned 414 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,440 about the fact that he's not quite ready to get out. 415 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,240 He's gonna get out. 416 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:54,720 [music fades out] 417 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,440 My name is Brad Rozzi, and I'm a local attorney. 418 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,440 I was assigned to represent Rex Groves in this murder case. 419 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,920 [melancholic music playing] 420 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,360 [Brad] I'm very concerned about what his mental state will be 421 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:10,880 when he walks out of that facility 422 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,720 because when you're somebody who has deep-rooted psychiatric problems, 423 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,640 and you're… you're capable of doing something as heinous as what he did, 424 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,200 and then you go spend 15 or 20 years in a prison, 425 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:28,360 I can assure you the chances of you having the clear mind, an entirely clear mind, 426 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,360 that in and of itself is extremely unlikely. 427 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,600 I'm not taking a shot at the prison officials. 428 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,520 But the circumstances and the environment that they're in 429 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,040 is not conducive to therapy. 430 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,240 And, you know, it's frustrating, because I have never seen 431 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,160 a more compelling case for an insanity plea 432 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,040 that's ever landed in this office, 433 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,520 and we've been around for 115 years. 434 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:58,880 [music fades out] 435 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,960 [troubling music playing] 436 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,400 [Rex] on some pretty heavy antipsychotics. 437 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,200 They, uh, put me on them 438 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,840 because they diagnosed me as being bipolar, 439 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,040 uh, anger, suffering from depression, anti-sociopath, 440 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,800 paranoid schizophrenia. 441 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,280 Uh, what else was there? Uh… 442 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:22,560 Fuck, uh… 443 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,720 Uh, possible multiple personality disorder, 444 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,800 but I quit taking medications about a year into my incarceration. 445 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,280 And then, uh, I've been off the medications ever since. 446 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,520 And, uh, I'm super psyched and amped. Uh, I'm excited to get out of prison. 447 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,440 I feel really great about myself personally. 448 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,120 Don't get me wrong. I still get angry every now and again, but, uh… 449 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,000 When I catch myself, I've learned breathing techniques. 450 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:51,560 I've learned coping mechanisms. 451 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,280 I believe that I'm more than ready for society. I just, uh… 452 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,720 I don't know if my family is ready for me. 453 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,840 [music fades out] 454 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,080 [Brad] Well, it is terrifying. 455 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,520 If that second evaluation 456 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,240 would have been a little stronger in favor of incompetence, 457 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,720 I think Rex would have ended up in a mental health institution, 458 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,760 where his treatment undoubtedly would have been more focused 459 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,800 and of a higher quality than what he's had. 460 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,320 [tense music playing] 461 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,680 The psychiatric staff and the medical staff 462 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,640 changes routinely in places like that. 463 00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:30,400 So the idea that someone's on and off medication is not surprising at all. 464 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,760 But if he were on some other type of court order commitment 465 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,040 in the mental health facility, there would have to be some results 466 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,720 generated to show that he's no longer crazy, essentially, 467 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,160 before he could leave there. 468 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,440 And the concern is, will he hurt somebody when he gets out? 469 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,880 That very well could happen. 470 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,880 That's what's scary about his release. 471 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,040 [music fades out] 472 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,760 [darkly melancholic music playing] 473 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,040 [Douglas] He's written me several times, and I've never read any of the letters. 474 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,520 I just cut him off. 475 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,600 It… It's a fucking horrible excuse, but… 476 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,600 I got wrapped up in life. 477 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,160 I miss him a lot. 478 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:37,240 But I want to see my brother be who he was. 479 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,960 You know? And the reality is he probably never will be. 480 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,160 The last time I saw Rex was right after he was convicted. 481 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,280 I remember sitting there thinking 482 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,640 what I seen in his eyes was not my brother. 483 00:35:58,720 --> 00:35:59,720 Uh… 484 00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:03,800 And what I mean by that is they're almost solid black, 485 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,640 almost as if he's possessed. 486 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,560 I thought he has the Charles Manson look on his face. 487 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,160 He was gone, mentally. 488 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,720 And I remember thinking… 489 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,000 "I don't know that I'll be coming back to see you." 490 00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:34,680 I would have much rather seen him go to a mental institution than to prison. 491 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,200 I believe he didn't get the help he needed initially, 492 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,800 and I don't know that he's gotten it now. 493 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:50,680 [music fades out] 494 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,960 [gentle acoustic guitar music playing] 495 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:19,760 [music fades out] 496 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,920 His letters are always short and sweet. 497 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,920 "Hey, runt. How's life on the outside?" 498 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,400 "Good, I hope. Things in here have not changed a bit." 499 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,560 "People come and people go. That's jail for you." 500 00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:32,080 "Thought I would drop a line and say hey, so hey." 501 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,000 "Love always, Uncle Rex. XOXO." 502 00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,040 [melancholic music playing] 503 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,160 The first letter I got was… 504 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,000 October 10th of 2008. 505 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,720 I think at the time, it was… 506 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,800 kind of helping with the coping mechanism of it 507 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,440 to help keep contact, 508 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,760 to try to fill in some of the blanks as to why it happened. 509 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,640 Like, why he did it. 510 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:07,920 [music fades out] 511 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,280 I've asked him, but he avoids the question. 512 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,840 The only thing he says is, "drugs and alcohol." 513 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,080 [ominous music playing] 514 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,640 As far as would I trust seeing him, you know, out of prison? 515 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:28,040 I honestly don't know. 516 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,400 I have visited him. I was comfortable there. 517 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,360 I was okay there because I knew, you know, nothing could happen. 518 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,160 In several of his letters, he's mentioned that, you know, 519 00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:45,400 he's done the drug and alcohol classes. 520 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:47,440 He said he's went to therapy. 521 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,840 He's completed it. He's done this, and he's done that, 522 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,200 but… has he did all that to make himself look good in prison? 523 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,320 Rex has always been a talker. 524 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,440 He can tell you anything and make you believe it. 525 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,880 But nobody's really gonna know if he's reformed or, 526 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,520 you know, the change is good until he is released, 527 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,520 until he's back in society. 528 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,600 [music continues] 529 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,960 It's a hard decision because on one hand, you want to… you want to see him do good. 530 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,680 You want to see him get out of prison, and, you know, 531 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,960 reform the life and society and… 532 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,480 make something of himself, but then on the other hand, you don't… 533 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,040 you don't want him free or out, 534 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,720 because you don't want to take the chance of 535 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,400 you know, it happening again. 536 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:46,000 And if he does, do I want to be close enough to where I could be, 537 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:47,800 you know, the next victim? 538 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,440 So I think that definitely plays a big role in 539 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:59,160 the fear of ever having a relationship with him outside of prison, 540 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:00,440 because you don't know. 541 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:02,840 We didn't see it coming then. 542 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,760 What's to say if he does it again, we're gonna see it coming then? 543 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,280 [music fades out] 544 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,640 [tense music playing] 545 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,440 [Rex] I'm scared to get out. I'm not gonna lie. 546 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,160 What if it happens again? What if it could happen again? 547 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:40,920 What if I can't get the help that I need at that one moment in time, 548 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,080 and I turn around and freak the fuck out? 549 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,040 There's always gonna be the "what if" factors. 550 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,600 The question is, is how am I gonna deal with it? 551 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,600 [music fades out] 552 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,680 [unsettling music playing] 553 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,200 [Brad] who has deep-rooted psychiatric problems, 554 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,480 and then you go spend 15 or 20 years in a prison, I can assure you 555 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,400 the chances of you having the clear mind, an entirely clear mind, 556 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,400 that in and of itself is extremely unlikely. 557 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,600 If that second evaluation would have been stronger in favor of incompetence, 558 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,400 I think that Rex would have ended up in a mental health institution, 559 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,480 where his treatment undoubtedly would have been more focused 560 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,320 and of a higher quality than what he's had. 561 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,440 It definitely wouldn't have hurt to probably, uh, 562 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,000 send me to a mental institution. 563 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,720 I probably would have got cured a lot faster. 564 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,280 Oh, I'll definitely admit I have paranoid schizophrenia. 565 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:52,560 There's no doubt to that. 566 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,800 It's just I have, uh… I have more control over it now. 567 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,240 I don't need medications to tell me or to calm me down, 568 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,960 and I'd say I probably got rid of the voices, uh… 569 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,360 Everything probably mellowed out around 2015. 570 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,960 [ominous music playing] 571 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,480 [Douglas] was right after he was convicted. 572 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,280 I remember sitting there thinking 573 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,480 what I seen in his eyes was not my brother. 574 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,400 Almost as if he's possessed. 575 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,920 I thought he has the Charles Manson look on his face. 576 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,840 He was gone, mentally. 577 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,600 Yeah, it's, uh… Well, yeah. 578 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,360 He's half right, half wrong. 579 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,480 One thing is, is that when, uh… When I got sentenced… 580 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,880 I was on heavy, heavy, heavy antipsychotics. 581 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,760 Those meds had me zombified, 582 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,680 but I mean, I understand the whole insanity, 583 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,520 uh, the psychotic break, psychotic episode. 584 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,560 I guess you could say I'm in denial of it. I don't want, uh… 585 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,240 I don't want to be known as the… the fruitcake. 586 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,720 The difference between me today and the difference between me, uh, 587 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,120 back then is that I got resources now. 588 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,360 And, uh, I'm doing everything that I can to make sure that, uh, 589 00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:24,080 people feel safe and secure when I get out. 590 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,080 [music fades out] 591 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,840 [interviewer] Did you have urges to hurt your family in the years after this crime? 592 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,040 -[somber music playing] -[laughs] 593 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:37,200 Oh yeah. 594 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,640 I don't mean to laugh. It's not funny. Um… 595 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:42,840 It's my coping mechanism. 596 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,520 At the time, that was my regret. 597 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,440 That was my only regret is that I didn't finish what I started. 598 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,640 I hated myself that I didn't fucking get all of them. 599 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,720 But last time I wanted to hurt any of my family 600 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,000 was, I want to say around 2015. 601 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:09,040 See, it took me a long time to actually… [chuckles] …get over a lot of things. 602 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,760 I mean, I understand. They have every right to be scared of me. 603 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,200 If it was the other way around, I'd… Yeah, I'd feel the same way. 604 00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:22,120 Uh, it's… 605 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,400 I'm not blaming them. 606 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,240 But you're still supposed to be my family. 607 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,680 I just wish you guys would talk to me. Give me a chance. Anything. 608 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,160 That's about all I can say. 609 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,680 [foreboding melancholic music playing] 610 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,680 [music fades out]