1
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[man] I was born in a middle-class family.
2
00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,280
My mother did insurance claims,
my father drove buses.
3
00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,760
I was always cared for.
4
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,240
I was never abused.
5
00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:39,680
Growing up was...
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00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,560
as average as can be.
7
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,600
My name is Leo Gordon Little,
the third of my name.
8
00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:56,800
I committed a murder.
9
00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,560
I was sentenced to death
10
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:02,400
as a result of that murder.
11
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,480
Reflecting back 20-odd years,
12
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,440
as you will do when you are in prison
and preparing to die,
13
00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:35,240
you'll reflect and you'll reminisce
14
00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:38,240
and you'll try to figure out
what went wrong.
15
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[man 1] This is a true story.
16
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I'll start it off like that.
17
00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,960
[man 2] I just wanted to rebel,
I wanted to cause chaos.
18
00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,800
I looked over at him.
We'll see who kills who, huh?
19
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:03,240
[woman] I made the choice.
20
00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:05,240
I took his life.
21
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,840
[man 3] It's something
that I never intended to do,
22
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I wish I didn't do.
23
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,800
[man 4] I knew I was gonna get out
of that car and murder those two men.
24
00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:23,040
[man 5] As he kneeled in front of me,
all I remember is pulling the trigger.
25
00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,760
[man 6] I'd killed them both.
26
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:29,320
I'd stabbed them to death.
27
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:48,520
[faint rustling]
28
00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,280
[woman] I remember
that I was watching the evening news
29
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,360
and they were showing
a murder that had taken place.
30
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,680
And they mentioned the name Leo Little.
31
00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,440
I remember just my mouth
being wide open and...
32
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,600
you know, "Not... not Leo."
33
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,080
That was one of my students.
34
00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,440
You know, nothing stood out about him.
He was just a quiet young boy.
35
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:40,680
Not a horrible kid.
36
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,080
Not a nice kid,
but a very average student.
37
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,720
When you go to a large high school,
you can be lost.
38
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,400
And as I look back,
that was the issue with Leo.
39
00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:58,960
He was a lost young boy.
40
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:12,720
[car rumbles by]
41
00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,560
[birds singing]
42
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:23,920
[distant footsteps]
43
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,120
[chair scrapes on floor]
44
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:32,480
[keys jangle]
45
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,440
[indistinct voice in background]
46
00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:37,560
Around the neck?
47
00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:39,960
[sniffs]
48
00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,440
Around, or back?
49
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:52,640
Yeah, there you go.
50
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:01,880
[click]
51
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:08,280
All well?
52
00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,320
[distant birds singing]
53
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,760
I was born and raised
in San Antonio, Texas.
54
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,080
July 14th, 1980.
55
00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:31,960
My father was a quiet but tough guy.
56
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,560
When I turned about nine or ten years old,
57
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my father was in the household,
58
00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,200
and he was raising us,
along with my mother.
59
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,240
At that point,
my father separated from my mother
60
00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,680
and they were later divorced officially.
61
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:06,080
My father's absence in the household
definitely created a noticeable vacuum.
62
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,480
As a man, I reflect that, you know,
I lacked the discipline.
63
00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,040
Once you get into the teenage years,
64
00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:19,960
that's a tough time for a kid.
65
00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:23,800
To go it alone,
without any kind of guidance.
66
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,640
I was getting in trouble in school.
67
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,720
I was always the short guy.
68
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,000
I was always the runt,
I was always picked on,
69
00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,280
but I wasn't the type of person
that would just lay down.
70
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,400
And so I would fight back,
71
00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,080
I did get in a few fights,
72
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,280
um... sticking up for myself.
73
00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:51,720
I started skipping school.
74
00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,920
And what do you do
if you're not in school all day?
75
00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:57,760
You get in trouble.
76
00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:01,120
Most of it was minor shoplifting
77
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,800
or, um... trespassing.
78
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,400
That sort of thing.
And then drug use, of course.
79
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,560
From 13 to 17,
80
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,480
I found a niche,
but it was with a darker crowd.
81
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,400
It was with the guys on the streets,
82
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,000
you know,
smoking marijuana and hanging out
83
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:22,440
instead of being at school.
84
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,440
I became interested in gangster hip-hop.
85
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:38,200
I was impressed and influenced
by the aggressiveness that...
86
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,160
you know,
I was kind of feeling at that time,
87
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,920
especially, you know, in my darker times,
you know.
88
00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:54,120
I got sent to my father's,
who lived south of San Antonio.
89
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,600
He enrolled me in the local country school
90
00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:01,520
and it just so happened,
91
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:07,480
Rob, who was from the area
that I lived with... my mother
92
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,840
in the northwest of San Antonio,
he was from that same area,
93
00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,240
so we clicked right away.
94
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,800
Rob and another friend
rolled me into their gang.
95
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,800
He was a part of what's called the Crips.
96
00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,800
Now, this set of Crips
wasn't a real big, uh, group.
97
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,280
Um, it was... it was more pretenders.
98
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:38,640
I don't really think about it
99
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,000
unless somebody brings it up
as part of my history.
100
00:08:42,560 --> 00:08:45,280
I was happy to be a part of it
because as a teenager,
101
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,080
you brag about that type of stuff.
102
00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,640
You want to make a name for yourself,
you wanna be feared, in a sense.
103
00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:56,880
I was trying pretty hard drugs.
104
00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,440
So I needed to find money.
105
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:09,040
And so I made a decision to go out
and, uh...
106
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,160
to rob another person for money.
107
00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,320
I was 17 years old at the time.
108
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:22,600
Jose Zavala was a friend.
109
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,040
We ran the streets together somewhat.
110
00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,200
He became my accomplice in the crime.
111
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,720
That night, we were riding around
the north of San Antonio
112
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,880
as we looked for someone to rob.
113
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,640
Jose had to go to the restroom,
so we stopped at a Maggie's restaurant.
114
00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:53,720
He went inside,
and as I waited outside in my car,
115
00:09:54,560 --> 00:10:00,640
I saw a well-kept man in a business suit
come out to his car,
116
00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,400
put something in his car
and shut the door.
117
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He did not lock his door.
118
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And so,
119
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I screwed up my courage
and grabbed my gun
120
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,480
and left Jose a note to follow that car.
121
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,520
It seemed best to me at that time
to get in the back seat of his car
122
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,120
and wait for him to come out.
123
00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:35,320
Jose came out,
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00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:36,440
got into my car,
125
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,760
and I presume read the note
and understood the plan.
126
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:45,440
A few minutes later...
127
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,760
Christopher came and got into his car.
128
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,120
And... and I surprised him
in the back seat.
129
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,320
My plan was to take him to an ATM machine.
130
00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,680
However, he didn't have an ATM account,
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00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,720
and so we drove around for a little while.
132
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,400
Until he spoke up and said,
133
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:12,680
"If you're after money,
134
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:14,880
there's a satchel in the back seat."
135
00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:21,120
And in the satchel,
I found a number of bills
136
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,680
that I think would amount to
300 or 400 dollars.
137
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:29,520
So at that point...
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00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,800
I figured out that it was over, you know.
139
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:34,720
Um...
140
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,400
All I... all I had to do was take him out
to a long stretch of highway,
141
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,680
tell him to walk
and ditch his car about a mile away
142
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,760
and get into my car and make it scot-free
with just the robbery.
143
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,120
It became apparent along the way
that he was almost out of gas
144
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,200
and we stopped at a gas station.
145
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,240
I think that was just a common sense
kind of thing.
146
00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:20,440
We drove a little bit farther than...
than I planned to.
147
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,680
And so I asked him to pull off
to the side of the road.
148
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,200
It was the middle of January.
149
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:32,640
Pretty cold for a Texas winter.
150
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,960
I remember getting out
into the dark country road
151
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:43,160
with the flashes of the emergency lights,
the cold air hitting my face.
152
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:55,080
I don't know what happened.
I honestly don't.
153
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:56,640
Um...
154
00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,800
I've run it over and over and over again
in my mind.
155
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,800
He never saw my face.
I... I made sure of that.
156
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:10,600
And...
157
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:13,160
it was...
158
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,280
a very easy thing to do,
159
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,040
just to leave him, jump in his car,
160
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,720
and let him walk back to town alive.
161
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,000
But for some reason in my mind...
162
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,120
that split-second
of lifting the... the gun...
163
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,120
and as he kneeled in front of me...
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00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,320
all I remember is pulling the trigger.
165
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,560
I remember Jose saying,
166
00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,360
"What are you doing?"
167
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,360
I remember a car passing.
168
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:06,520
And us making casual.
169
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,240
Eventually, I began helping Jose...
170
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,200
drag Christopher's body
off to the far side of the road.
171
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,480
For all of this time
that I've been locked up,
172
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,440
these 21 years,
173
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,400
there's not a day
that I haven't thought about
174
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,400
what I did and who I did it to.
175
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,040
I don't know
what the Chavez family will see,
176
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,360
what perspective they're looking at
at this point in time in their life.
177
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:20,280
Um...
178
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,080
I've reconciled with my God.
179
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,440
And now I'd like to reconcile
with the people that I've hurt the most.
180
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,200
I think that would be a...
[sighs]
181
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,120
I think that would be
a beautiful thing to see.
182
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:45,720
Maybe to come full circle.
183
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:48,720
I think, uh... I think it's time.
184
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,520
[birds singing]
185
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,120
[man] I love playing 18 holes.
186
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,680
It is a good stress relief for me.
187
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,800
You can feel the air, feel the wind,
get a little exercise.
188
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,120
Get rid of all the tension
that you've built up,
189
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,840
take it out on the ball and go home.
190
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,280
And not bring everything that happened
during an investigation home with you.
191
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,000
My name is Thomas Matjeka.
192
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:55,320
[ball clunks]
193
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:57,760
Everybody calls me Butch.
194
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,000
I've been a police officer now
for 41 years.
195
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,520
And I spent almost 17 years
involved in murder investigations,
196
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,160
attempted murders, capital murders,
in San Antonio.
197
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,240
Despite everything that I've seen,
this is probably the case
198
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,000
that's affected me more than any other.
199
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,560
It affected me, it affected my family,
200
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,560
it affected my relationships at work
for a period of time.
201
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,840
I think because of how senseless
this particular murder was.
202
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,040
It didn't need to happen.
203
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,560
But it did, and it wore on me
for about six months.
204
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,200
One of the things that we do
in investigations
205
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,200
is we look very deeply
into the background of the victim,
206
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,320
especially when we don't have
anything to go on.
207
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:02,920
And Christopher, I learned,
was a very, very special young man
208
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,320
with a very special family.
209
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,000
He was probably
the truest innocent adult victim
210
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,280
of any murder investigation
that I ever had.
211
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,080
I went through his apartment,
I went through his life.
212
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,120
I went through every scrap of paper,
every item he touched in his apartment,
213
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,400
looking for something to give me a lead
as to why this happened,
214
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,440
and I found absolutely nothing.
215
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,600
One of the things that really haunted me
was where Christopher's body was found.
216
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,520
We found two shell casings at the scene.
217
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,120
He'd obviously been shot
in the back of the head.
218
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,800
We also found a set of drag marks
where his body had been dragged
219
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,800
from the road to, ultimately,
where he was found.
220
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,400
He laid there for a day,
221
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,080
uh, alive and suffering
because he'd been shot.
222
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,840
There was an area of dirt
that had been cleaned.
223
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,760
It's kind of like when you make
a snow angel,
224
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,520
you're moving the snow around.
225
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,400
Christopher laid there
and his leg had gone back and forth,
226
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,160
back and forth, and people assume
that he was trying to get up, but for me,
227
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,560
I do this when I'm at home in bed,
I'm sick, I'm in pain,
228
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,320
I move my leg
to kind of take my mind off the pain.
229
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,880
And I think
that's what Christopher was doing.
230
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:03,040
That mark there indicated
that he was laying there in pain
231
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:06,800
until he was found, and that...
that kind of took a toll on me.
232
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,200
The first day or two
of this investigation,
233
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,680
we were pretty depressed,
because we had nothing.
234
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,960
And then we learned the identity
of the suspect
235
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:43,480
and this case came together.
236
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,440
Leo kind of surprised us
when we went in and talked to him.
237
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:51,920
I didn't expect to find
238
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,360
somebody this young
involved in this type of a case.
239
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,120
When we brought him in,
we told him what we had.
240
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:00,960
"I've got a witness that says
241
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,280
that you admitted to shooting
Christopher Chavez.
242
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:05,120
I've got a witness
that put you in his car."
243
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,480
I laid out everything
that I had for him and told him,
244
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,200
"You're caught
and there's no reason to deny it.
245
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,000
You killed somebody
during the commission of a robbery.
246
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,440
That's a capital offense in Texas
and you're looking at the death penalty."
247
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,400
He was 17 years old and back then,
the death penalty applied to 17-year-olds.
248
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:22,440
It didn't faze him.
249
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,720
It was, "Okay, let's talk about it.
I'll tell you everything that I did."
250
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,280
Leo never gave us any indication
as to why this happened.
251
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,160
Of course, he wanted to commit a robbery,
they were looking for money for drugs,
252
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,360
that was the whole motive for this thing.
253
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,760
But why he decided to pull the trigger
and shoot Chris,
254
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,120
that explanation never came.
255
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:54,760
[car approaching]
256
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:27,880
[birds singing]
257
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,400
[woman] Leo was extreme on both ends.
258
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,760
He was the kind of guy that would, like,
open the door for you.
259
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,640
But at the same time,
260
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,400
he'll punch somebody in the face
261
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,600
if they made you cry
and he cared about you.
262
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,040
I first met Leo in high school.
263
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,400
He would come to our trailer
out in the country
264
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,640
and we would play video games.
265
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,000
We were all going through
our own personal issues,
266
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,680
so we kind of had a mutual ground
267
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,960
by getting high and forgetting about it.
268
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,360
He seemed like he wanted attention
from not just the girls, but the guys.
269
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,160
You know, he wanted respect.
270
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,120
He dressed like a gangster from the city.
He really did.
271
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,800
Gold jewelry, earring, pressed pants.
272
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:44,160
He was a self-proclaimed Crip gang member.
273
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,520
So he even had a nickname,
we called him Lil' Crazy.
274
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:58,600
I knew Leo for no more than a year
before he committed his crime.
275
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,720
We saw lights coming up the driveway.
276
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:13,040
He comes in the house
and he has a friend with him.
277
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,720
One of our friends asked him,
you know, "Where'd you get this car?"
278
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,480
And that's when he started to tell us
what happened.
279
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,280
At first, I didn't believe him.
280
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:30,880
I thought he was lying.
281
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,560
But then his friend had blood
on his pants,
282
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,400
so I was kind of scared,
like maybe he did do something.
283
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,720
We had a mutual friend that lived with me
284
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:49,560
and, uh, she made an anonymous call
to the police station,
285
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,360
telling them that he committed a crime.
286
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,720
I would have never saw it coming.
287
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:02,240
Never.
288
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,560
You know, I thought
he was just going through a phase
289
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,240
like the rest of us, you know?
290
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,320
He just took it too far.
291
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,200
[man] Leo don't say much. He just watches.
292
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,200
That's all that he ever did.
293
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,200
And that tells you everything.
294
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,320
You got to watch the people
that are quiet.
295
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,360
My name is Jose Zavala.
296
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,480
I was convicted of capital murder
and given a life sentence.
297
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,840
I grew up in what would be considered,
from an outside perspective,
298
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,440
a gang-related,
somewhat rough neighborhood.
299
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,280
It was pretty run down.
300
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:40,840
What you would expect from a slum,
I guess.
301
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,080
I was doing stupid shit,
302
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,320
stealing cars and...
and burglarizing houses
303
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:50,360
because...
304
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,960
there was nothing else to do.
305
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,880
I was out there on the streets.
306
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:57,480
Pretty bad.
307
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,200
Leo Little was a friend of a friend.
308
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,560
And we all used to get high.
309
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,960
We'd smoke weed together,
sit around listening to music,
310
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,800
and basically, we had common ground,
we shared a common ground,
311
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,000
so it was just a natural... a natural fit.
312
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,160
His neighborhood was...
it was really picturesque.
313
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:26,720
You know what I mean?
314
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,480
People walking their dogs.
315
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:32,360
Good lawns.
316
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,280
A Neighborhood Watch sign
on the front yard.
317
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:36,960
Yeah, that type of neighborhood.
318
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,480
I just thought about it like, damn,
319
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,760
we gotta be quiet, 'cause your neighbors
are gonna snitch if we get too loud.
320
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,960
They're gonna call the cops. Keep it down.
321
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,200
I didn't know he was in a gang.
322
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,160
When I learned about that at trial,
like, yeah...
323
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,160
You're in a gang? Don't strike me...
324
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,840
I grew up around gang members.
325
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,040
Don't strike me as no gang member.
326
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,560
Writing rap songs and stuff?
327
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,760
Come on, man, that's what you do,
write rap songs?
328
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:09,520
I guess.
329
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,360
Man, I didn't think nothing
was gonna happen that night.
330
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,440
I heard the gunshots,
obviously I looked up and...
331
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,400
The first thing that came to my mind was,
332
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,240
"Man, that guy,
that's not like the movies."
333
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,400
The movies, like, they go and they do
all this jerking. He didn't jerk.
334
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:36,960
I remember the smoke from the hair.
335
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,640
I remember the going back,
the swaying,
336
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,640
going to one knee, the sway,
337
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,720
and then slumping over, real slow.
338
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,080
Real slow.
Right after you got head checked.
339
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,680
Real slow.
340
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,800
I'm like, "Man, we got to get rid
of this damn car."
341
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,160
He's like,
"All right. Follow me first, though."
342
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,640
So I ended up following him,
343
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,800
what ended up being
to these... these people's house.
344
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,040
I remember I didn't like these people
because they acted black.
345
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,520
"Nigga this, nigga that, nigga that."
346
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,120
I didn't hang around
with people that was like that.
347
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,440
I remember having that whole feeling.
"What's here? Why are we here?
348
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:21,520
We need to be going."
349
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,080
Leo said, like...
He was... he was bragging about it.
350
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,760
"Yeah, I smoked that nigga,
I smoked him, I did that.
351
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,880
He's out there right now."
Man, yeah!
352
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,000
This is the Leo I didn't see.
353
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,880
This is the Leo...
He ain't never been like that.
354
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,840
Talking like this
and, um, bragging and all? No.
355
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:44,680
No.
356
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,120
That night, I didn't have it in my head
that nothing like that was gonna happen.
357
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,680
I'm assuming Leo's gonna do the same thing
that we did with the last one.
358
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,480
My name is Malachi Wurpts.
359
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,800
I had just moved to San Antonio.
360
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,360
Two o'clock in the morning, I woke up
361
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,280
to a young man
standing at the foot of my bed,
362
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,520
shouting at me, telling me to wake up.
363
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,160
As he pointed his gun at me,
364
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,360
he told me to come with him.
365
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,520
And... as we're walking down the hallway
to the parking lot,
366
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,680
he looked at me and said,
367
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,280
"If I go down for anything tonight,
I'm not going down for robbery.
368
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:11,840
I'm going down for murder."
369
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,600
He stuck the gun right into my side
and told me to drive.
370
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,440
As we were driving out of the parking lot,
371
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,840
I noticed there was a car following us.
372
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,960
He directed me to an ATM machine
at a grocery store.
373
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,120
And he said,
"If anybody tries to be a hero,
374
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,480
I'm gonna shoot you. I can shoot you
through my coat like this."
375
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,480
When we got back to the car,
376
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,240
he just said,
"We need to do one more thing."
377
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,760
He directed me to drive on this highway
outside of the city of San Antonio.
378
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,840
And we pulled off on the side of the road
379
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,440
and his accomplice pulled his car
in front of ours.
380
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,560
They told me to get out of the car.
381
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,120
And then they took off,
and that's the last I saw them.
382
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,560
About a week later,
I was watching the news
383
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,600
and I heard a report of a young man
that had been killed.
384
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,600
The detectives got really interested
in the story.
385
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,760
They actually came to where I work
and brought the lineup of photos.
386
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,480
And I immediately zoomed in
387
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,920
on the guy who had abducted me
388
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,120
and it turned out that
that was Leo Little.
389
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,880
I think about Leo a lot.
390
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,000
I've thought about it many times
over the years,
391
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,440
and I've actually prayed for him
over and over again.
392
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:26,320
And I know how easily
I could have become in his position
393
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,080
because I made bad choices
when I was a teenager.
394
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,440
And I really feel, like...
395
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,040
a connection with him.
396
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,160
And I hope that he knows
that I forgive him.
397
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,240
[Butch]
What I'd like to show you now is a video
398
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,720
that we obtained in the investigation
from the Diamond Shamrock gas station.
399
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,160
Leo directed Christopher to stop
at the Diamond Shamrock,
400
00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:24,000
uh, to get him something to drink.
401
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,080
You'll see Christopher
walk through the front door here.
402
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,080
Leo is right behind Christopher
and he's got his hand in his right pocket.
403
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,760
We know that's where the gun is.
404
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,360
Notice that Leo allows Christopher
to walk freely around in the store.
405
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,040
He's gone to the very back of the store
to get Leo something to drink.
406
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,680
In the meantime,
Leo is talking to the clerk.
407
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:51,080
Christopher puts the Coke on the counter
and Leo pays for it.
408
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,720
You just saw Leo turn around
and walk out ahead of Christopher,
409
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,160
giving Christopher the opportunity
to grab him from behind.
410
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,040
In talking to his family, I asked his dad,
411
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,600
"Why didn't Christopher fight?
Why didn't he say something?
412
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,800
Why didn't he do something
to end this situation?"
413
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,360
And in talking to Mr. Chavez,
414
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,280
he told me that Christopher was
a very devout individual,
415
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,000
their religion is nonviolent,
416
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:19,480
and Christopher believed
417
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,400
that if, uh,
he maintained that nonviolence,
418
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,800
that everything was going to be okay.
419
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,320
That's his belief
and that's what led him, ultimately,
420
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,560
uh, I believe, to be killed.
421
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,160
Leo's not even watching Chris.
422
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:39,200
The only time he really looks at Chris
in any way
423
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,960
is when he's walking out the door,
he gives a little side glance
424
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,560
over his shoulder, just to make sure
that Christopher was still there.
425
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,600
Leo is getting off on that power.
426
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,040
He was not stressed,
he was not concerned, he was not fearful.
427
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,240
He was in complete control and dominance.
428
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,160
[Leo] I don't know what happened.
I honestly don't.
429
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,480
All I remember is pulling the trigger.
430
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:37,800
If I was sitting in front
of Christopher's mother and father,
431
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:40,200
there would be no words
432
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,520
that could soothe them.
433
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,840
They have every right... to be hurt.
434
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,080
But what about Christ?
435
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,080
What about reconciliation?
436
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,600
As a minister of God,
I think that there can be
437
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,360
some hope, you know,
some healing, you know.
438
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,680
If they can find the strength,
the courage,
439
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,920
to approach me,
to find some kind of dialogue,
440
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:14,640
I think that would be a...
[sighs]
441
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,640
I think that would be
a beautiful thing to see.
442
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:31,600
[Butch sighs]
443
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:32,520
You know...
444
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,720
He's so full of crap.
It just... It surprises me.
445
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,680
This young man knows exactly what he did.
446
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,200
Leo Little pulled the trigger
because he wanted to,
447
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:46,920
not because he doesn't know why,
448
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,520
or some mysterious idea
he had in his head or...
449
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,080
or something overtook him, or he forgot.
450
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:53,000
That's all...
451
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,360
Leo Little intended to commit murder
and he did.
452
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,200
You know, I grew up
in a Pentecostal Church.
453
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,440
Many years ago,
before I started at the police department,
454
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,680
I was a... a licensed preacher.
455
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,560
I believe in salvation,
I believe in Jesus Christ.
456
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,720
I believe in the entire message
of the Gospel
457
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,000
and preached it for a number of years.
458
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,080
But if you listen
to what this man is saying,
459
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,680
he doesn't have the first clue
about what he's talking about
460
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,960
because nowhere in his conversation
does he mention the term "forgiveness".
461
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:32,320
He wants to talk about:
462
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,960
"Now's the time that we come together
for hope and reconciliation."
463
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,360
It's not their responsibility
464
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,920
to come together
for hope and reconciliation.
465
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,920
It's his responsibility
to ask for forgiveness,
466
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,600
to the Chavez family, to Christopher,
and to his God,
467
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,280
and he hasn't done that once.
468
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,440
What he's doing now
469
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,960
is he's setting up his parole.
470
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,680
That's what all this is about.
471
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:05,000
His whole persona of change
is nothing but to benefit him.
472
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,760
There's nobody else in his mind,
there's no regret, there's no remorse.
473
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,320
There's nothing going on
in his head right now, except:
474
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,160
"I've got to change
in order to get out of prison
475
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:16,120
when my first opportunity comes up."
476
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,200
That's what I believe is happening here.
477
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,880
Yeah, I heard that Leo is a minister,
478
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,480
or ordained priest,
or something of that nature.
479
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:43,640
That's good for him.
480
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,040
But I feel like
somebody needs to take accountability,
481
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:53,760
responsibility.
482
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:59,480
I don't run to God and be like,
"It makes my soul feel good."
483
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,200
So... you know, "If I'm good enough,
you're gonna let me out."
484
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:04,920
That don't make me a good person.
485
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,160
That just makes me a person
that's gonna do anything for anybody else.
486
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,160
No, I feel like I'd be lying,
487
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,560
on a "spiritual sense," if I do that.
488
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:17,920
I'm not gonna do that.
489
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,440
Leo was a kid.
490
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,440
You don't know why you're doing
what you're doing.
491
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:33,080
You're probably thinking
that's some gangster shit.
492
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,120
You don't know why... why you did that.
493
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,560
Or you might. Who knows?
I'm not in your head.
494
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,360
I know I'm not gonna do that shit.
495
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:42,160
Uh-uh.
496
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:48,480
[guard] Go.
497
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:49,640
[gate clicks open]
498
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:51,680
[gate closes]
499
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,520
[man] Okay...
500
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,240
[indistinct background voices]
501
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,320
[Butch] Leo Little pulled the trigger
because he wanted to.
502
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,480
Not because something overtook him,
503
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:18,920
or he forgot. That's all...
504
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,640
Leo Little intended to commit murder
and he did.
505
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,960
If I wanted to see a man die,
506
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,960
I would have no problem in saying that.
507
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,160
I would have no problem.
508
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,440
I know people...
[sighs]
509
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,560
...desire to know these things.
510
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,560
But simply, I just cannot remember
511
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,200
what I was feeling 21 years ago
as a teenager.
512
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,680
And I know it sounds idiotic and foolish.
513
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,920
But when I got out the car
and Christopher got on his knees,
514
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,200
I don't know what got into me.
515
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,600
I swear. I swear it.
516
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,320
I don't want to have
any equivocation about it.
517
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,120
I was evil when doing that.
518
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,560
I was wrong in doing that.
519
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:23,760
I am to blame
520
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:26,280
for doing that.
521
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,280
To hear it third person,
522
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,680
I would probably judge myself too.
523
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:38,840
The first interview,
524
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,320
you know, you always have regrets about
what you say and what you don't say.
525
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,720
I'm very aware that, uh,
civilly speaking, I'm not a good man.
526
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:50,640
Um...
527
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,000
I... I carry that X on my back
and I understand that.
528
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:55,880
All I want to do...
529
00:42:57,720 --> 00:42:58,720
[sighs]
530
00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:01,920
...is clean up the mess that I've made.
531
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:07,600
[Butch] What he's doing now
532
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,920
is he's setting up his parole.
533
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:11,800
He wants to talk about:
534
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,000
"Now's the time that we come together
for hope and reconciliation."
535
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,440
It's his responsibility
to ask for forgiveness
536
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:20,680
to the Chavez family,
537
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,800
and he hasn't done that once.
538
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:30,480
I do desire the forgiveness
of the Chavez family.
539
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,520
There's no doubt about that.
540
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,440
If I failed to say that last time,
541
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:44,080
if I misspoke or got too emotional
during that plea,
542
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,960
um... that was my fault.
543
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:50,760
As far as my parole goes...
544
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:52,400
[sighs]
545
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,320
...deep down, there is a part of me
546
00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:01,600
that thinks that I deserve
to die in prison.
547
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:09,280
Whether or not the good detective, uh...
senses that or believes that,
548
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:12,880
I respect his opinion. Yeah.
549
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,040
It's such an injustice
550
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,520
that Christopher...
551
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,400
and his life stopped at 22.
552
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,320
I get that. I understand that.
553
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,120
But I'm still living.
554
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,000
All I can do is live my life in prison.
555
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,920
Whether it be for the rest of my life
556
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,000
or not,
557
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,080
I'll live it to the honor of God,
that's for sure.
558
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:57,280
I've come from death row
to becoming a minister in prison,
559
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,400
which is a very hard thing to do.
560
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,040
Hopefully, I have done a...
561
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:06,000
a decent job of...
562
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,320
showing you who I am and what I think
and what I believe.
563
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:16,880
After such a horrible, horrendous mistake.
564
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:22,040
Thank you for watching.