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[man] I think it's fair to say
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00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,200
that I destroyed my family
a long time ago.
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00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,720
When I shot my father
and even before that.
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Then, I think I hurt my family again.
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I mean like...
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soul-wrenching pain.
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You know, people always want to say,
"I'm sorry."
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That doesn't work.
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When you ring a bell...
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the bell doesn't unring.
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You can't unravel time and go back.
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[man 1] This is a true story.
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I'll start it off like that.
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[man 2] I just wanted to rebel,
I wanted to cause chaos.
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I looked over at him.
We'll see who kills who, huh?
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[woman] I made the choice.
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I took his life.
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[man 3] It's something
that I never intended to do,
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I wish I didn't do.
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[man 4] I knew I was gonna get out
of that car and murder those two men.
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[man 5] As he kneeled in front of me,
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all I remember is pulling the trigger.
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[man 6] I'd killed them both.
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I'd stabbed them to death.
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Uh, my name is Charles Armentrout.
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During my younger years,
everyone called me Billy.
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[laughs]
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Hey, this is a true story.
I'll start it off like that.
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Uh, I was born in St. Louis City.
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St. Louis Hospital, August 2nd, 1965.
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I wasn't too old
when my parents got separated.
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Probably six or seven years old, maybe.
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I remember my stepdad...
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00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,200
and my mom getting together.
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I think the relationship
with my stepfather
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is where all the anger started appearing.
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He didn't physically abuse me so much,
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as he did verbally and mentally abuse me.
39
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And I think over time
that took a toll on me.
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When you got an adult all the time
telling you you're stupid, you're dumb,
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that has... that plays a factor
in your development.
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And I think...
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that's where...
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all the negative behavior started
coming from.
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00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:40,200
When I was 18, me and my stepdad
were not getting along at all
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to the point of almost physical blows
between the two of us.
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And my father called me and he said,
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"You're 18, you can come live with me
and your mother can't say anything."
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So I moved in with my father.
50
00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,720
At first it was fine,
but now that I look back on it,
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I was not making the right choices.
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I was just in a bad place.
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I wanted to be the bad guy.
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I started robbing gas stations.
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After I robbed my first gas station,
I seen it was easy, so I robbed another.
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Uh, that robbery turned into
another robbery.
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I was a loose cannon.
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The thrill was intense.
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I can remember vividly
a very prominent point
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and I was talking to myself,
I was having a conversation with myself.
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And I said, "If you keep doing this,
if you keep going down this road,
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you're going to end up dying...
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or messing up really bad.
You've got to stop."
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And I said to myself, "Screw it."
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From that point on, it got worse.
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00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,760
I started stealing money from my father.
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He caught me writing checks
on his account...
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and he got really pissed.
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I thought he was going to kick me
out of the house.
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00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:31,960
And...
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I was worried that I would have to go back
to my stepfather.
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And I knew my stepfather
was going to be on me.
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I couldn't... I couldn't do it.
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I felt like I was in a corner.
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And I didn't have no way out.
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Yeah, I had some type of insanity
at that point in time.
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I waited for my father to come home.
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We have a door up the stairs
and I was on the other side of the door.
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When he reached for the doorknob,
I started to fire.
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[gunshots continue]
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00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,600
I forget exactly how many times I hit him.
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00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,680
I think six, maybe seven,
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out of nine shots.
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Uh...
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I ambushed him.
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He didn't do anything wrong to me.
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'Cause he really didn't.
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I didn't care. I cared about me.
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Man, I was a monster.
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00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,960
The police wanted him to prosecute,
but he didn't want to prosecute me.
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00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,080
He thought I was...
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00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,120
he thought I was insane.
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00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,680
During the hours after my father was shot,
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the police department's realized
that I had robbed several gas stations.
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I was arrested for that,
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00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,240
charged and sentenced several months later
to 19 years.
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I served ten of that
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00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,320
in the Department of Corrections.
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[horn blows]
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00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,160
[train chugging]
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00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,480
When I was released at 28,
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00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,360
the only person that was prepared
to accept me
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00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,080
on parole, because I had to have
a place to parole to,
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was my grandmother.
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Inez Notter.
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My father's mother.
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She was a firecracker.
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She was small in stature.
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She had a big heart.
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Uh...
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And ultimately, she forgave me
for shooting her son.
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Absolutely incredible.
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The neighborhood was the Bevo Mill area,
in South St. Louis.
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It was a good neighborhood. Quiet.
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But at that time,
I was hanging around the wrong people,
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wanting to be the life of the party,
the big shot.
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00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,080
Uh, Roger Brannan was... he was weird,
but he was cool.
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We'd hang out at his house,
smoke weed, party.
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00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,040
Rick Lacey was different
than Roger Brannan.
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Rick Lacey was a guy's guy.
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He was a dope fiend.
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He was a petty criminal.
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And we just hung out, we did drugs,
all the time, 24/7.
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I started hanging around
with this one girl.
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And she introduced me to cocaine.
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And once I started, it just bit me
and I couldn't shake it.
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I would ask my grandmother for money.
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And she would give me money.
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And then, she started not giving me money.
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So I stole checks and started
writing checks on her account,
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and stealing money.
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Uh, she found out about it,
confronted me with it,
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and I was like, "I'm sorry, Grandma.
I'm... I didn't mean it.
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I'll pay it back."
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And about a week later,
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my car got impounded.
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I didn't have no money.
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[clicks tongue]
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And I went home to my grandmother's house
and tried to get some money.
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And she refused.
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00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,320
The only way I thought
I could get some money was to...
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rob her.
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00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:33,920
Uh...
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Beat her up.
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This is pretty gruesome,
but it went from robbing...
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to when I first swung the bat.
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Then I knew I had to kill her.
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I followed her in her bedroom
and I started beating her with the bat.
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I beat her until she was unconscious,
tied her up and laid her on the bed,
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rifled the drawers,
found some money, left.
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Yeah...
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that's what I did, and I killed her.
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I came back the next day...
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took the body and hid it in a trunk
in the basement
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and tried to clean up the scene.
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[man] We began the manhunt
for Billy Armentrout.
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He was the primary suspect in this,
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so 100% of our effort went to finding him.
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I'm Bill McDonough,
and I was one of the original detectives
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assigned to the case.
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We found out that Billy had tried to cash
one of his grandmother's checks that day
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and was turned away from the bank.
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Which is a good, fresh trail.
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00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,680
Everybody involved had informants
that were familiar with the streets.
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00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,880
And so everybody...
everybody contacted their folks
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00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,320
and put it out there that we were
looking for him, and we got a call
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00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,080
and I just remember them saying, "Hey,
he's spotted at Ricky Lacey's house,"
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gave the address
and we jumped in our cars
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and drove down there as fast as we could.
170
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And while we're en route,
we announce on the radio
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that we're gonna take the back, um...
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because the bad guy
always goes out the back.
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I was right on the nose, 3436.
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That's it. First floor.
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00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,120
Homicide pulled up to the front
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and out of the back window, um,
came Billy Armentrout
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as like a gift from God,
dropped right at my feet and...
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um, we fought for a little bit
and I got him under control
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00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,720
and put in custody and, uh, that was it.
Billy was in custody.
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[faint background conversation]
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I got transferred to the bureau,
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and then, um, I got immediately assigned
with Rubin and, um...
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We hit... we hit the ground running.
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00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,440
Um, back in the '90s,
we had the, uh, crack wars...
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and, uh, they were getting
200-plus murders in the city...
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00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:10,840
a year.
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[Bill] Actually, after we captured Billy,
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00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,920
we start talking
and this gave me an idea of...
189
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,240
of really how bad
the crack monster had him
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00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,960
when he said, "Is this about my grandma?"
191
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And we said,
"Yeah, it's about your grandma."
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And he goes, "If... if...
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00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,200
if you let me smoke crack one more time,
I'll tell you anything you wanna know."
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And, you know, I was...
I was floored at that, offended.
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And I just said, "Billy, you know,
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00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,400
it's gonna hit you, eventually,
what just happened here,
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that you killed your grandma
over this... over this thing
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that you want one more, uh...
one more hit of. That's not happening."
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00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,320
You have the right to remain silent.
200
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,960
-Do you understand that?
-Yes.
201
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,880
Anything you say can and will be used
against you in a court of law.
202
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,480
-Do you understand that?
-Yes.
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00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,520
[Bill]
Tell us what happened Saturday morning.
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00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,160
Starting with the time that you woke up.
205
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:27,560
Well, Rick came over.
206
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:29,160
[Bill] Rick who?
207
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:30,800
Uh...
208
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:32,560
Lacey.
209
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:34,680
Rick Lacey came over...
210
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:36,760
[coughs]
...banging on the door.
211
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,320
I said, "Rick, what's going on?"
212
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,880
We kinda talk, try to figure out
how to get some money.
213
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,920
And I said, "Well, we'll go over Grandma's
and try to pull a scheme on her."
214
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,640
And, you know, Rick said,
"Well, what if I knock her out?"
215
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,480
So I went in my bedroom,
216
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,040
got my little Cardinal bat
off my dresser.
217
00:18:58,120 --> 00:18:59,920
Took it back in and gave it to Rick.
218
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,400
So Rick followed her in the bedroom
219
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,440
and I heard a commotion.
220
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,120
And Rick said, "Billy, Billy.
You gotta get out of here. You gotta go."
221
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:11,280
Me and Rick left.
222
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,440
-[Bill] Why didn't you throw the bat away?
-Rick said to throw it in the river.
223
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:15,680
I knew that wasn't no good.
224
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:17,880
-[Bill] Anybody else know you were there?
-Rick.
225
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:19,560
Rick went to get some heroin...
226
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,200
I went over to Rick,
came in and got high...
227
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,880
[Rubin]
He wasn't all that difficult to interview.
228
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,520
He kept on lying about it, kept on saying
Ricky Lacey did what he did.
229
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,520
When you say Rick Lacey assaulted
your grandma with that baseball bat,
230
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,240
was just that bat used
or was there anything else used?
231
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,160
Just the bat, to my knowledge.
232
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:39,880
[Rubin] We were quite confident
233
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:41,760
that Ricky Lacey had nothing
to do with it.
234
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,280
Uh, Ricky Lacey said he had never been
to Billy Armentrout's grandma's house.
235
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,920
We found no physical evidence there,
fingerprints...
236
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,560
There was just nothing there.
237
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,800
[Bill] You know, you have a guy
that is smoking crack.
238
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,520
He is just a... a tsunami
239
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,720
walking through the neighborhood
and anything that he sees,
240
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,880
he's gonna take either by deceptive means
or by violence.
241
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,240
Billy crossed into a whole different realm
when he murdered his grandma.
242
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,560
[Rubin] He beat an 81-year-old woman
who didn't weigh 100 pounds.
243
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:55,280
He'll probably do this again,
244
00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:57,920
but he's going to pick on the, uh...
on the most vulnerable.
245
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,320
I think he's evil,
but I think he's a coward too.
246
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,680
What do I think about Billy Armentrout?
247
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:42,560
I think he's sick and disgusting
248
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,880
for what he did to his own grandma.
249
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,600
She did everything for him
250
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,800
and this is how she gets repaid.
251
00:21:55,120 --> 00:22:00,000
He does not need to be let go
on these streets ever again.
252
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,200
My name is Roger Brannan,
253
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,120
and I'm from St. Louis, Missouri.
254
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,600
Well, I was friends with Billy Armentrout
and Rick Lacey back in the day.
255
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,120
It was kind of like,
I guess you could call it my...
256
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:25,880
my wild days.
257
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,040
[laughs] That's what it was.
It was mostly partying.
258
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,880
You know, I, uh...
259
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,040
I did my drugs, which was weed, marijuana.
260
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,400
Never done none of that other stuff.
You know, the crack or...
261
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,040
or heroin,
262
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,080
but they all did.
263
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,280
They hung down there at Rick's house.
264
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,040
Wherever they could do their drugs,
that's what they did.
265
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,400
When I first found out what was going on,
as in the murder,
266
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:11,920
I was arrested...
267
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,000
for trying to cash a check for Billy.
268
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:21,800
I was sleeping
269
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,720
and they came and knocked on my door
270
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,720
and it turns out
that there was at least 20 of them.
271
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,880
They took me to the police station,
272
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:39,520
and when they said murder, I told 'em
anything that they wanted to hear,
273
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,360
you know, 'cause I wasn't gonna...
274
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,160
you know, I wasn't gonna go to jail
for something that somebody else did.
275
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:46,680
You know?
276
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,200
It scared me, really.
277
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,360
I always thought
that it was just Billy that did it.
278
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,840
That thought of Rick Lacey helping Billy
279
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,640
murder his grandma, that thought
didn't even come to my mind.
280
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,280
You know?
281
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,320
The only time that it did come to my mind
is when it came out of Billy's mouth.
282
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,800
He was trying to blame it on somebody else
and he picked Rick Lacey.
283
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:55,600
[distant car horn]
284
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,200
[man] I think that someone
like Billy Armentrout
285
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,800
who had been living a life
of lying to get drugs
286
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,000
and lying to get out of trouble,
287
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,920
to lie and go to court
and say he didn't do something
288
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,960
was just a continuation of the behavior
that he had been doing before.
289
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,160
My name is Chris Slusher.
290
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,440
I'm an attorney here
in Columbia, Missouri,
291
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,240
and I've been a criminal defense attorney
for 25 years.
292
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,000
Billy Armentrout, I remember,
wanted to represent himself
293
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:45,560
from the beginning.
294
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,680
We had what I would call
a hybrid role in the case.
295
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:54,320
Initially, we were appointed to be
what would be termed standby counsel.
296
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,640
Um, essentially you're there,
you're following things,
297
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,880
and if he needs you,
you're there to then jump in.
298
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,960
So Rick followed her in the bedroom.
299
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,480
[Chris]
I do remember Mr. Armentrout's claim
300
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,600
that Mr. Lacey was the primary one
who delivered the blows
301
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,800
that caused the death of his grandmother.
302
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,320
Whatever, he hollered at me.
303
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,040
The State did not believe
Mr. Armentrout's representations
304
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:25,120
about the role of Ricky Lacey,
305
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,680
and that they felt that Mr. Armentrout
was the only one responsible.
306
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,760
[computer keys tapping]
307
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,000
In my experience in representing people
in these cases,
308
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,280
there is, in many of them,
309
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,320
a fundamental fear
of admitting their guilt
310
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,200
because they recognize
what they have done is so terrible.
311
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,200
And so it's this conflict within them
that makes them not want to admit it.
312
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,080
They have to evolve to the point where
they can accept their own responsibility
313
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,200
and in my interaction with Mr. Armentrout,
during the trial phase,
314
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,600
I didn't see that
because he wasn't there yet.
315
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,280
[man] Billy was always claiming innocence
about his crime.
316
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,240
He stood on the fact that he was innocent
317
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,320
and that he didn't commit this crime
and that he got a raw deal.
318
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,680
I think that was a lot of where
his bitterness came from.
319
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,240
I could relate to him,
his... his anger with the system,
320
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,760
or his frustration
with trying to prove his innocence.
321
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,880
My name is Randall Bernard Knese.
I go by Randy.
322
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:41,960
I came...
323
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,800
to Potosi Correctional Center in 1997,
324
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,800
and I got to know Billy Armentrout,
325
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,600
lived in the same wing with him
and got to be good friends with him.
326
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,560
[distant birds singing]
327
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,680
In the Missouri corrections system,
328
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,240
they have a class called
"Impact of Crime on Victims Class"
329
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,400
or, as we call it, "ICVC".
330
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,960
At the end of it, they have what's called
a victims' panel,
331
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,480
when they told their stories about
how their loved one was murdered.
332
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,440
It was very, um...
333
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,400
It left you in a state
334
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:30,880
where you couldn't hide no more.
335
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,880
Where you... where you were like,
"Damn, you know, I did that to somebody."
336
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,200
And this is the way their family...
337
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:41,800
feels.
338
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,560
And I don't know what it was for Billy
that was changing him,
339
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,360
but there was a change going on
340
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,440
and he never really spoke it to me.
341
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,120
Then, one day, he said that he was going
to sign up for ICVC.
342
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,960
I was like, "I'm going to be a part
of this class,
343
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,680
'cause I'm gonna try
to get the truth out of him."
344
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,040
Can Billy become a different guy
345
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,120
than the man that was a part
of killing his grandmother?
346
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,480
Can he become no longer the guy
347
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,640
that committed his crime?
348
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,880
Something in that ICVC class got to him,
349
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,400
brought him to that place
where he had that epiphany moment
350
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:34,920
where he shocked us all.
351
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,680
[Billy] I was doing ICVC.
352
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,280
Several of the inmates were people
that I were close with, that knew me,
353
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,280
and then when Randy Knese did
the last chapter, which is homicide....
354
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,600
and he talked about his crime
and then we went around the room...
355
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,080
I finally said,
"I murdered my grandmother."
356
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,840
To absolute astonishment
of everybody in the room.
357
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,320
I said her name was Inez Notter.
358
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,080
And I beat her to death
with a baseball bat.
359
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,000
And when I said that,
360
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,440
all of the people that were on that panel
had an understanding
361
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:22,800
that...
362
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,000
for once in my life,
363
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,080
I took ownership of my choices.
364
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:30,880
It wasn't that...
365
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,400
[clicks tongue] ...I didn't know
I did it. It was that it was so...
366
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,000
painful...
367
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,960
that I couldn't acknowledge doing it,
368
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,680
uh, in any meaningful way.
369
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:48,960
I am sorry.
370
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,240
But how do I express it?
371
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,040
I can't.
372
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:54,800
However...
373
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,400
I can be a better person
and a different person.
374
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,320
Someone so much so different
that they wouldn't recognize
375
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,120
my actions, my thoughts...
376
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,120
or the way I conduct myself.
377
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:17,480
He's admitting that...
378
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:19,240
that he did it.
379
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:21,920
After all these years...
380
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:23,320
Wow.
381
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,120
And he... he knows what he did wrong.
382
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,280
He knows exactly what he did wrong.
383
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,080
And you want to know what?
384
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,160
[clicks tongue]
385
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,680
[sighs]
386
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,200
For some odd reason, I believe him.
387
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:39,520
I sure do.
388
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,160
[sighs]
389
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,040
I kind of feel sorry for the guy.
390
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,280
But he did wrong.
391
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:56,880
And...
392
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,840
he has to pay for what he did.
393
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,120
That's all I can say. I mean...
394
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:06,480
That's all I can say.
395
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:09,960
[sighs]
396
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,360
[sniffs, sighs]
397
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,080
I didn't know that I was going
to shed a tear about this crap.
398
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:24,000
[sniffs]
399
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,480
[sighs deeply]
400
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,240
[sobbing] And, uh...
401
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,760
I really do wish him happiness,
if... if... if possible,
402
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,400
in the penitentiary.
403
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,280
I mean, I know he... he was a bad guy.
404
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,280
He says he's changed.
405
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,200
But changing is not gonna get you out.
406
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,000
Changing is not going to bring
your grandma back.
407
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,040
[distant rumble of thunder]
408
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,000
[Billy] You know,
people always want to say, "I'm sorry."
409
00:34:12,240 --> 00:34:13,280
That doesn't work.
410
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,200
When you ring a bell,
411
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:18,880
the bell doesn't unring.
412
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,000
You can't unravel time and go back.
413
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,600
I think it's fair to say that I destroyed
my family a long time ago.
414
00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:37,160
When I shot my father
and even before that.
415
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,560
[rumble of traffic]
416
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,880
[distant bird cries]
417
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,600
[woman 1]
Billy had called me from prison,
418
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,320
and he was trying to reach out, I guess.
419
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,160
I... I mean, we had a nice conversation,
420
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:27,360
but that was the last time
that I even spoke to Billy.
421
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,680
[woman 2]
I've gotten a couple Christmas cards
422
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:35,280
over the past couple of years,
423
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,800
and I haven't returned them
and it's kind of weighed on me.
424
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,360
[Wendy] I laughed when I saw this one,
because he has a funny face.
425
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,280
Yeah.
426
00:35:58,680 --> 00:35:59,720
Yeah.
427
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,680
My name is Mary Eberhardt
428
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,080
and I knew Billy from when I was married
to his father, Bill.
429
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,920
My name is Wendy, I'm Mary's daughter.
430
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,480
I looked forward to the weekends
when Billy would come over
431
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,560
'cause I could get into mischief
with a partner in crime, so to speak.
432
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:25,600
It was fun. I enjoyed Billy.
433
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,680
[Mary]
When I first met Billy, he was five
434
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,880
and he was just a sweet little boy.
435
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,320
All he wanted to do was
be with his father.
436
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:42,760
He just wanted to please him.
437
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,200
Yeah. He wanted to please him.
438
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,280
He looked for the weekends
to be with his dad.
439
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,120
But then, when he got to be with his dad,
440
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,760
it was bad, bad, bad.
441
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,840
[Wendy] His father, a vicious man,
442
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,560
didn't think twice about hurting anybody,
443
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,640
not just my mom, because she's a woman
and she's, you know, not as strong as him,
444
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:13,440
but I think Bill would have gone
and attacked anybody that crossed him.
445
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:19,280
I'd seen so much of Bill hitting Billy,
you know, for just trivial little things.
446
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:26,000
I never saw Billy get any compassion
or any sort of nurturing.
447
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,680
I don't know that he had that in his life,
448
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,440
and I think maybe that just hardens you.
449
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,040
Several years had gone by
and I hadn't seen Billy,
450
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,320
um, in quite some time,
451
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,480
and I just remembered him
as my... my big brother.
452
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,440
And then he did come back into our lives,
453
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,560
but it wasn't the same big brother
that I felt comfortable around.
454
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,800
[Mary] He came in and visited for a while.
455
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,400
It wasn't until after that visit
that I noticed that we...
456
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:17,600
Things started to...
457
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,800
Disappear.
458
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,880
-And he was breaking in.
-The door was off the hinges,
459
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,320
the apartment was just
completely vandalized.
460
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,920
It wasn't just a burglary.
461
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,200
It was anger lashed out.
462
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,320
Then the big one was after that
and that's when Billy was standing there
463
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,920
behind the door and he showed me
that he had a gun.
464
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,400
He put it on my face,
so that I could feel it was cold.
465
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,320
It was real. It was obvious
he was capable of doing...
466
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,360
scary things.
467
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,320
And then we moved after that.
468
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:51,400
Yeah. Yeah.
469
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,280
I didn't see Billy again
for, like, three or four years
470
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,360
and that was when his father had called
and said that Billy had shot him.
471
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,240
He said, "The little bastard."
472
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,240
Excuse me, but that's what he said,
"He thought he killed me."
473
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:28,600
[Mary] We don't know
474
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,560
whether he committed suicide
or whether it was accidental,
475
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,760
because he was found in his truck,
inside of his garage.
476
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:37,760
And he had been drinking.
477
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,960
This happened, like, four months
after Billy had shot him,
478
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,240
and he just went downhill from that.
479
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,080
He just drank and drank and drank.
480
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,480
And I think inside of his mind,
481
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,200
he more or less felt
he deserved to be shot,
482
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:52,840
the way he treated Billy.
483
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:08,920
[Billy] Yeah, my dad was a hard man.
484
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,920
To say that my dad was worse
than any other bad dad...
485
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:18,120
Okay, maybe he was.
486
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,600
Maybe that's the only way he knew.
487
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,080
Did I see him be abusive
to my stepmother?
488
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,080
Yes.
489
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,600
Was he abusive to me? Sure.
490
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,480
Could that have been the reason
that I shot him?
491
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,800
It probably is in that ball.
492
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,480
But you have to understand
that it's just not one solitary thing.
493
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,400
It's a culmination of things.
494
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:09,720
The reason for not being honest
about the murder of my grandmother,
495
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,240
it has multiple layers.
496
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,440
I think the first and foremost layer is...
497
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:18,200
denial, on my part,
498
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,200
that I could have done...
499
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:21,960
such a...
500
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,640
such an act to someone who loved me.
501
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,720
I think the second layer...
502
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,560
is that I didn't want to face that.
503
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:34,880
Uh...
504
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,360
I didn't want to accept it.
505
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,760
I wanted to blame everybody else.
506
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,480
My mental psychology was such that...
507
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,240
there were times when reality and...
508
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,000
fantasy started to blend.
509
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,640
To a point where
I wouldn't even acknowledge it
510
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:56,920
to myself in my thoughts.
511
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,240
I buried the feelings so deep
512
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,680
that there were times
when I was actually convinced...
513
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,200
that Rick did it.
514
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,480
I had never...
515
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,400
had an opportunity to contact Rick.
516
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,120
To let him know
that I had stopped blaming him
517
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,320
and taken responsibility
for the murder of my grandmother.
518
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:46,880
When learning that he passed...
519
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:51,920
once again, it's, you know, another layer
520
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:53,440
of...
521
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:55,160
pain...
522
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,360
that I didn't get a chance to tell him,
"Hey, man, I'm sorry.
523
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:01,480
I didn't mean to do that.
524
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:03,560
But I did."
525
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,680
[distant birds singing]
526
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:23,520
Uh, my family contact is limited
to very few.
527
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:24,560
My fault.
528
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,400
I've caused them so much pain,
529
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,120
I can't expect them to forgive me
on any level.
530
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,600
The only people that I have been
in contact with
531
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,400
and were in contact with
was my Uncle Bobby Wacker...
532
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,960
That was up until his death.
533
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,240
And my stepsister Wendy,
534
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,040
and my stepmother Mary.
535
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,240
And then we just fell off a little bit.
536
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,040
Well, after one of my interviews
with the team,
537
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,840
I got an email from my sister.
538
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,360
I hadn't heard from her since 2009.
539
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:05,200
And...
540
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,480
I believe she's coming up
to see me today.
541
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,360
It'll be the first time I've seen her
542
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,480
since we were young.
543
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,760
And I always missed
communicating with her.
544
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,520
[sobbing] Because those childhood memories
are some of the best that I've got.
545
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,200
[sighs deeply]
546
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,480
It was the highlight of my life
547
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,520
to visit my dad on the weekends
and spend time with my sister.
548
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,960
I've been dishonorable
for most of my existence.
549
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,600
I will not be dishonorable anymore.
550
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:03,840
I will be honorable
551
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,080
in every action
552
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:07,800
that I do.
553
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,240
If you're truly remorseful,
554
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,360
and you truly recognize the devastation
that you caused
555
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,600
by taking another person's life,
556
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,680
I think you can move on from it.
557
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,040
Apologize, make amends.
558
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:26,840
Mean it.
559
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:28,920
Own it.