1
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,080
[distant birds singing]
2
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,920
[man] Oftentimes, I pray for Mr. Moore.
3
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,240
Pray for his family as well.
4
00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,040
I recognize that I did something hideous.
5
00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,080
I was now sinking in a sea of sin.
6
00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:06,840
For me, life was over with.
7
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:11,800
I just wanted to end life.
8
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,680
And the question always came to mind:
9
00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,600
"What... what... why am I here?
10
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,760
Why am I here? Why do I even exist?
11
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:24,840
Why do I even exist?"
12
00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:32,720
My name is Toby Lynn Williams.
13
00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,520
I was charged with capital murder
and I was sentenced to death.
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00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,400
[man 1] This is a true story.
15
00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,040
I'll start it off like that.
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00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,360
[man 2] I just wanted to rebel,
I wanted to cause chaos.
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00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,240
I looked over at him.
We'll see who kills who, huh?
18
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:03,520
[woman] I made the choice.
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00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:05,640
I took his life.
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00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,840
[man 3] It's something
that I never intended to do,
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00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:11,520
I wish I didn't do.
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00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,640
[man 4] I knew I was gonna get out
of that car and murder those two men.
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00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,000
[man 5] As he kneeled in front of me,
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00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,600
all I remember is pulling the trigger.
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00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:27,280
[man 6] I'd killed them both.
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00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:29,760
I'd stabbed them to death.
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00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,280
[man] When we're young,
we're not real bright.
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00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,040
[birds cry]
29
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,440
And we do some things
that aren't real bright.
30
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,640
Should we be judged
for them the rest of our lives?
31
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,040
Or should we be given
the opportunity to show that,
32
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,520
"Hey, we learned from that,
we grew from that"?
33
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,040
Thirty-six years.
34
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,760
That's just an unconscionable amount
of time.
35
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,440
When it comes to punishment,
what's enough?
36
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,160
[birds singing]
37
00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,760
[distant voices]
38
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,440
[Toby] I'd spent most of my time
in Shreveport, Louisiana.
39
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,640
I feel like things
would have been different
40
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,440
had I been raised
with a loving mother and father.
41
00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:18,920
When I was seven years old,
42
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,160
I discovered that the lady that
I was calling Mom was my grandmother.
43
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,400
When I was about six weeks old,
44
00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:34,440
my mother, she decided to give me
to a family who were going to adopt me.
45
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,920
So my grandmother's response was,
46
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,440
"If you don't want him, I'll take him,
I'll keep him, I'll raise him."
47
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,560
My dad was...
48
00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:52,360
He was non-existent.
49
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,760
He went to prison for...
for a murder case
50
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,360
and we never really got close.
51
00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,000
When my father came out of jail,
he come to Louisiana
52
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,320
and... and I was... I was delighted.
53
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,880
I was extremely delighted to see him.
54
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,360
When I went to live with him, um...
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00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,120
eventually, I started getting into fights
with my stepbrothers
56
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,600
and, uh...
they would jump on me all the time.
57
00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,120
It was always, uh...
some violence between us.
58
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,880
When I was nine years old,
it was the first time
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00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,520
that I ever ran away from home.
60
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,880
I lived in the street,
slept in the street.
61
00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,800
My criminality was basically
about surviving.
62
00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,000
I had to steal and rob,
63
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,760
going into some store and lifting things
out of the store, because I was hungry.
64
00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,840
I started drinking and doing drugs,
at least smoking marijuana,
65
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,120
when I was about 10, 11.
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00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:12,080
That's when I...
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00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,480
And at 15 is when I had the armed robbery,
attempted murder case.
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00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:24,120
I went and robbed a place
69
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,320
because I was, you know,
I was trying to come up on some money
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00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:32,160
to, uh... purchase me more alcohol and...
and more marijuana.
71
00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,720
And I received a juvenile life sentence
72
00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,240
and I went into
Louisiana Training Institute For Boys.
73
00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,040
When I came out of the boys' home,
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00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,080
I felt like life had passed me by.
75
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,400
So in order for me to catch up in life,
76
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,520
I was going to have to find me
some type of robbery, some type of heist,
77
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,840
some type of crime that I commit
where I could gain financially.
78
00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,960
At the expense
of somebody else's detriment.
79
00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,040
And, you know, that was my attitude
at the particular time.
80
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,320
Johnny Moore was a man
that I had the opportunity to work for.
81
00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,800
He and his dad were responsible for
opening the recreational vehicle business
82
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,080
and they needed some help
83
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,400
and they allowed me to work for them
for about a week.
84
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,320
One night, I heard two young men talking
85
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,120
about how they had gotten fired
by Mr. Moore's dad,
86
00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,160
and I seen that as an opportunity
87
00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,280
to commit the robbery of Mr. Moore.
88
00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:07,240
I believed that law enforcement
would hold them responsible
89
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,640
because they had a motive
to commit the crime
90
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,480
based on being fired by Mr. Moore.
91
00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,600
But the problem was that Mr. Moore knew me
92
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,440
and the solution to that was that
Mr. Moore would have to be eliminated.
93
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,400
I felt like I had to murder him
to prevent him
94
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,480
from identifying me in the courtroom.
95
00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:39,760
I knew that Mr. Moore had a baby.
96
00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,880
So I desired to have someone there
to basically watch
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00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,520
to make sure
nothing happens to that child.
98
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,920
As I was going to the house,
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00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,360
I seen Wilma and Victoria
walking in my direction.
100
00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,800
Wilma and Victoria were two young ladies
living in the neighborhood.
101
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,960
I said we should be able to acquire
at least $500,000
102
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,960
out of this, uh... robbery,
103
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and they basically agreed to it.
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00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,200
And so we go over to Mr. Moore's house.
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I knocked on the door.
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00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,920
He comes out and I pulled the .357 on him
107
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,400
and I asked him
if he would go back in the house
108
00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:34,520
and he went back in.
109
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,800
When we went into his room, his wife
and his son were laying there on the bed.
110
00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,320
Eventually, we started moving property
from his house onto his truck.
111
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,480
The girls just watched
the Moores and the baby.
112
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,600
And then I just basically held him
at gunpoint
113
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,560
and told him that we were
going somewhere, basically.
114
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,960
We all piled in the car
and came over here into Texas
115
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,040
to throw law enforcement off,
to convince them
116
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that someone in Texas
had committed the crime
117
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,000
instead of someone out of Louisiana.
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00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:34,480
When we got into Texas,
that's when I had Mr. Moore and Mrs. Moore
119
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:35,760
to get out of the car.
120
00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:47,760
I didn't care anything about my own life
121
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and I was trying to... to get the courage
122
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out of not caring anything
about my own life
123
00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:57,120
to be able to do something like this
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that I had never done before.
125
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,320
And once I had built up the courage...
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I just dropped the gun and shot.
127
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Mrs. Moore's back was to me
128
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,920
and it went through her
and... and struck him.
129
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,680
Immediately after I had shot them,
130
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,560
um, I wanted to shoot Mr. Moore
to make sure that he was dead,
131
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but Victoria, she approached me
132
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and she expressed that he would die,
let's just leave him.
133
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So we piled in the car with the baby.
134
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And I just left the bodies there.
135
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:44,760
[distant birds singing]
136
00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:47,800
[cow moos]
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00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,920
[man] November and December
is always cold in this area.
138
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:53,760
[mooing continues]
139
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,080
I've been here about 40-something years.
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This is family land,
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00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,680
so I wound up
building a little house here.
142
00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:13,000
Back in the early '80s,
I was in the bed sleeping and...
143
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,200
I don't know exactly
what time of morning it was,
144
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,560
but it was way after midnight,
I do know that.
145
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,360
[tinkling]
146
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,240
We heard a knock at the door
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00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:26,880
and somebody pleading for help.
148
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:30,200
I was thinking
149
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,800
they gonna come rob me,
that was my first thought.
150
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:35,880
It was a kinda scary feeling,
151
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,520
'cause nothing like that
never happens in this area.
152
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:41,920
We peeped out the window first
153
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,920
and he was standing right at the door,
here at the front door.
154
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,840
He said, "My wife been shot.
They shot me and they shot my wife."
155
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,600
He was holding both hands,
like, right here.
156
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,920
That's one thing I won't never forget.
157
00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:58,640
You could see the hole.
158
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,400
You didn't see any blood, but I assume
he was bleeding on the inside.
159
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:10,240
He said, "I know who did it.
I know who did it.
160
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,600
They took my car and they got my baby."
161
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:14,760
Mm-hm.
162
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:17,560
I said, "Where's your wife?"
163
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:19,760
He said, "She's up the road."
164
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,040
We're about a quarter of a mile
from my house.
165
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,640
This is where all of it happened,
right here on the side of the road.
166
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,400
The man jumped in the back of the truck
and he rode on up here.
167
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,520
And that's when we saw the lady
laying on the ground.
168
00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,200
This is where she was laying.
169
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,560
Kinda onto the side here.
170
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,600
Her feet's over here,
her head kinda laying this way,
171
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,080
and she was just laying there,
not moving.
172
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,280
I didn't see any blood that much.
173
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,240
The man got out the truck.
174
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,440
And he was looking at his wife.
175
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,840
I don't know, he just assumed
she was gonna be okay also, I guess.
176
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,000
And by that time, the police had came.
177
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,520
They loaded him into the ambulance,
and, you know, had taken him off.
178
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,440
I found out later that she was dead.
179
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,280
[birds chirping]
180
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,400
[birds singing]
181
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,760
Here's a picture of Debbie. Uh...
182
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,440
I don't think she's happy
with me taking that picture.
183
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,080
But she got over it.
184
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,320
Here's a picture of her and Cuddles.
185
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,040
Cuddles was a Teacup Chihuahua.
186
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:30,240
Little bitty thing.
187
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,360
Um, Cuddles and Debbie sleeping.
188
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,160
That seems to be a recurring theme.
189
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:44,480
My name is Johnny Moore.
190
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,000
Debbie was my first love.
191
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,200
She was my wife,
192
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:55,520
my friend,
193
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:57,280
my confidante.
194
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,200
We were...
195
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,360
19 days short
of being married three years,
196
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:06,600
the night she died.
197
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,160
I met Deborah at, uh... church.
198
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,480
A friend of mine introduced me and Debbie
to each other
199
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,880
and... we went out,
I guess, a week or two later.
200
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,560
And just... the romance grew from there.
201
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,640
We dated about a year, 16 months,
something like that,
202
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:35,840
before we got married.
203
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,040
We enjoyed doing things together and...
204
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,280
just got along good.
205
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:42,680
You know?
206
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,120
Our son was born, it was 1984.
207
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,720
These bring back the good memories.
208
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,560
Instead of the bad memories,
these bring back the good memories.
209
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:58,000
You know?
210
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,200
We were, of course, still a young couple,
211
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:05,280
and it's...
212
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:07,560
it's no bed of roses,
213
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,040
but we were making it.
214
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,240
She adored our son
215
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,240
and, uh, he would never hit the floor
216
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,480
without having a new set of clothes on.
217
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,360
He was her pride and joy.
218
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:24,840
And...
219
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,360
You know, that was her life,
taking care of him.
220
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,600
She was a good mother.
221
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,840
She was a good friend.
She was a good person.
222
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,440
It don't sound like much, does it?
But it is.
223
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,280
Debbie died on December 20th of 1984.
224
00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,800
It took 12 years of my life to...
225
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,200
to get where I can handle it.
226
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,040
Am I over it now?
227
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,360
Not 100%. No, I never will be.
228
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,920
Yes, it still brings up bad stuff,
229
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,240
but I can talk about it now.
230
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:14,520
You know?
231
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,800
[distant rumble of traffic]
232
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,680
[man] Yeah, there is a scripture, says,
"What is your life? It is a vapor.
233
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,320
It appears for a while
and then it vanishes."
234
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:52,800
My name is John S. Walker
235
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,880
and I've been a practicing attorney
for about 50 years.
236
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,360
1984, I was a prosecutor in Panola County.
237
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,440
I prosecuted all types of cases.
238
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:10,480
Murders, rapes, robberies.
239
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,080
You name it, I did it all.
240
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,400
One of the cases
was State vs. Toby Williams.
241
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,000
It was pretty well-known generally
242
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:26,360
about the horrific nature
of the facts of the case.
243
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:38,400
Toby Williams basically hijacked
or kidnapped the victims.
244
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,480
And took them out in the country,
245
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:48,400
down this lonely... road.
246
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,640
And proceeded to have them undress.
247
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,880
In the middle of the road,
in the wintertime.
248
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,760
They were crying and hugging themselves...
249
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,040
in the frigid air...
250
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:07,600
in the middle of a road.
251
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,280
And then he decided he wanted
to see two white people have sex.
252
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,920
I don't use such language, but...
253
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,200
he basically said,
"I want to see white folks fuck."
254
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,200
I expected the verdict to be what it was,
I really did.
255
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:03,800
And, uh...
256
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,080
I think he expected it, too.
257
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,760
I remember Mr. Williams
making an under-breath comment.
258
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,680
"Well, I just want them
to get it over with fast."
259
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,640
I think Mr. Williams' outrageous conduct
260
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,760
is something that society cannot tolerate.
261
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,400
[birds singing]
262
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,240
[Johnny] Got a knock on the door
263
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,760
and got met with a .357 pistol in my face.
264
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,720
You know, it drug out for hours.
265
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,320
Toby said we were gonna go for a drive.
266
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:17,680
Debbie was holding George.
267
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,800
And, uh... I was holding her.
268
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,120
We didn't have a chance to talk,
we just exchanged looks.
269
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,120
I guess that's the best way to say it.
270
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,320
And, you know, she was scared.
271
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,680
And holding our son,
you know, holding George close.
272
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,800
I knew in my heart
that was not a good deal.
273
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:45,360
You know?
274
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,920
And Debbie knew that also.
275
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,280
There's no doubt in my mind about that.
276
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,120
This was not going to end good.
277
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,280
One of the girls demanded
that we give George to them.
278
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:09,680
Toby was...
279
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:11,440
calm...
280
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,760
and collected, he knew what he was doing.
281
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,160
We did get undressed,
but that's all they...
282
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,560
You know... that was it.
283
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,000
I was down to my briefs.
284
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,800
She was down to her bra and panties.
285
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,600
I... I never heard the gunshot.
286
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,360
I... To this day,
I've never heard the gunshot.
287
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,160
Next thing I know, I'm on the ground.
288
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,080
I hear Debbie's breath going out of her.
289
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,160
I looked over and I...
290
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:09,520
I knew she was gone.
291
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,440
[birds chirping]
292
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,200
[distant rumble of traffic]
293
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,280
After I got to the hospital,
the doctor examined me
294
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:28,680
and they decided
I needed emergency surgery.
295
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,680
I was more worried about my son.
296
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,680
I... I didn't know where he was at.
297
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,800
I can't remember if I was in the ER or...
298
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,000
leaving the ER,
headed to the operating room.
299
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,000
And somebody told me
they had got a phone call
300
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,360
for a lady finding a baby
on the front porch of her house.
301
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,600
They had already found my son
302
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,760
and... and I got to see him before...
303
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:03,680
[voice trembling] Excuse me.
304
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,240
[takes deep breath]
305
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,200
I got to see him before I went to surgery.
306
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,200
[birds chirping]
307
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:30,880
Yes, I felt guilty that I lived,
308
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:32,320
and she didn't.
309
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,960
But I also felt...
310
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,040
[sniffs]
311
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:44,160
...you know, that I was glad
that she died quickly.
312
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,840
She didn't have to suffer.
313
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,920
[sighs]
314
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,520
I was glad for that,
she didn't have to suffer.
315
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,880
There's no way
Toby Williams could ever pay...
316
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,600
for what happened that night.
317
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,400
You cannot replace somebody's life.
318
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,080
[interviewer] How do you feel
towards Toby Williams today?
319
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,560
I don't care to talk about Toby Williams.
320
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,640
[interviewer] Is that just about
not letting him impact you ever again?
321
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,800
I don't care to talk about Toby Williams.
322
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:01,200
[man] You can't just automatically
judge people on their past.
323
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,320
These people who are killers are not
the men that they were at that moment.
324
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,760
There is a possibility of redemption.
325
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,560
My name is Thomas Wattley.
326
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,280
And I've known Toby Williams
for ten years.
327
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,080
I lead the prison ministry
at the George Beto Unit
328
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,280
in Tennessee Colony, Texas.
329
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,200
When he went into prison, he was a thug.
330
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,320
He'd fight.
He, you know, did all the drugs.
331
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,680
Um...
332
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,760
He stole, he lied, he killed.
333
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,720
He was just a bad actor.
334
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,360
[distant birds chirping]
335
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,120
[Thomas] When I met Toby,
336
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,160
he was trying to define himself,
337
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,800
understand who he was in prison.
338
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,120
Initially in class,
339
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,000
he just kinda soaked in
340
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:32,880
what we were talking about.
341
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,400
And then he started just sharing...
342
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,880
about the traumas
that he experienced in his early life.
343
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:52,560
[click]
344
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,560
[Toby] My mother, I didn't know her.
345
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,600
I basically traveled life's journey
feeling pretty much that way.
346
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,040
If your own mom don't love you,
nobody in life will ever love you.
347
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:08,520
[click]
348
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,600
[Thomas] Toby is suffering inside.
349
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,960
You hear it in his voice.
350
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,280
We all wanna know our mother.
351
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,400
We wanna know our father.
352
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,640
We wanna know who we are.
353
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,480
You know, I've always been loved,
354
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,200
but I would think without love,
life has to be hard.
355
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,080
You don't have any sense of worth.
356
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:40,880
Sense of self.
357
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,960
Being loved means you, you...
358
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,520
your value as an individual develops.
359
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,080
[Toby] When I was ten years old,
360
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,760
I had befriended a young guy
361
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,040
in the community.
362
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,680
And we would go around,
we would ride bikes,
363
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,200
and on occasion, we would steal bikes.
364
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,880
And there was someone in his family,
365
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,680
I don't know if it was his brother
or his uncle, that I had encountered.
366
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,560
And I desired to look to him
as a father figure or a big brother.
367
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:16,160
And so,
368
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,160
we go out to this Dallas drainage ditch
to do the crawdad fishing.
369
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,800
The next thing I know,
he was looking down on me
370
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:25,880
in his lust,
371
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,240
and at that particular time, he...
372
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:29,960
he raped me.
373
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,120
And I wanted to scream for help,
374
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,440
I wanted someone to come to my rescue.
375
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,600
But I decided that I didn't want anyone
later on to come to my rescue,
376
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:41,560
because,
377
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:42,960
as I thought about it,
378
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,360
someone would perhaps come to my rescue
and ridicule me.
379
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,000
So I just laid there,
380
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,440
hoping that the matter
would soon be over with.
381
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,440
So, later on, he'd stood up,
382
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,440
and he pulled his pants up.
383
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,480
And he said, "And don't you tell nobody."
384
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,680
And I took that as my cue
that I could get up,
385
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,400
so I got up and I pulled my pants up
386
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,680
and I made my way
out of that drainage ditch.
387
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,360
I never told anyone.
388
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,480
I had made my way
from that particular moment
389
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,920
to the back of the house
where my grandmother and me lived,
390
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,320
and I discarded
those semen-stained underwear,
391
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,880
and I locked the good boy up
in the dungeon of my soul.
392
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:32,720
"I never...
393
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,680
I never told anyone."
394
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:38,880
How can you be hurt...
395
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,760
and not tell somebody about it?
396
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:44,600
How?
397
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,520
He's been crying for help
398
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,120
all his life.
399
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,400
It's hard to make that intellectual leap,
400
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,400
that that's what caused him
to commit murder.
401
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,480
But we know
there's a series of events in his life
402
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,880
that got harder and harder and harder
and tougher and tougher and tougher,
403
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,560
that led him to that path.
404
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,040
Toby is worthy of sympathy.
405
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,640
He did a horrific crime.
406
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:23,320
We cannot forget that.
407
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,760
And when we do what's wrong,
408
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,800
yes, we are punished.
409
00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:30,680
But at the same time,
410
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,600
we have to be forgiving.
411
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:39,480
And pray that Toby, over time,
will learn from this
412
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,440
and... and change his ways.
413
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,320
That's what we're talking about.
414
00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:59,720
[birds singing]
415
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,840
[man] I fish as often as I can.
416
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,840
I fish here in the backyard.
417
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:18,920
I fish on my boat.
418
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,480
I'll go down to the local fishing piers.
419
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,840
Being incarcerated, you're...
420
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:34,880
you're in a cage
421
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,560
and you don't get to do
these simple little pleasures of life.
422
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,320
And 20 years not being able to do it
is, uh...
423
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:47,600
that's a lot of missing.
424
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:56,760
Toby Williams
was my first actual celly that I had
425
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,720
when I was incarcerated,
the first about eight months.
426
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,760
We were locked in our cell
24 hours a day, seven days a week
427
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,160
and you don't really have a lot to do,
428
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,800
except get to know
those that you're in there with,
429
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,040
which is one person.
430
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,080
And Toby and I have just been friends
ever since.
431
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,520
People would assume
that Toby is a rabid monster.
432
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,800
That if he were ever to be around anybody,
433
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,240
he would be trying to plot and scheme
how to harm them,
434
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,520
take advantage of them,
take their property.
435
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,560
Uh, any... any one of a number
of bad things.
436
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,360
And Toby is none of those things.
437
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,160
I... I don't know that...
438
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,240
a day, week, month or year ever goes by
439
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,840
where it doesn't weigh on him,
440
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,480
the damage that he did.
441
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,240
On death row, in that cell by yourself,
day in and day out,
442
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,800
you come to the realization
something went wrong.
443
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,480
The path that Toby chose was...
was to try to correct himself,
444
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:09,560
and he has.
445
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,080
He started educating himself.
446
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,800
He started listening
to other people's opinions about stuff.
447
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,240
He has an exemplary record.
448
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,480
He participates in everything.
449
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,840
If you need something, he's there.
450
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,440
He's not trying to take,
he's trying to give.
451
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:35,120
Because of what he took.
452
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,760
Toby's an old man now.
453
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,520
And I think that the amount of time
that he's spent in there
454
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:48,920
has paid for what he's done.
455
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,280
I really do.
456
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,560
He hasn't done anything
457
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,800
that would prevent him
from getting parole,
458
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,960
so why doesn't he get parole?
459
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,920
If you keep him in prison the whole time,
that's a death sentence.
460
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,920
It's a living death sentence,
but it's a death sentence nonetheless.
461
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,880
So, again, what is enough?
462
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,560
[birds singing]
463
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,760
[Johnny] My outlook on life changed a lot.
464
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,320
I'm happy what I do.
465
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,320
Been married again for almost 13 years.
466
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,120
Here we go,
when I jumped in the Mediterranean.
467
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,240
-Oh, that was fun.
-You all said it was cold.
468
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:57,960
It was, but we got in anyhow.
469
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,400
[Johnny] My wife is Belinda.
470
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:06,720
She's been through a lot
that I've been through.
471
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,280
We try to enjoy things,
472
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,240
do things, travel when we can.
473
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,480
Because tomorrow is not promised.
474
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,760
You know, so...
475
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,240
You never stop missing.
476
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,360
It gets better with time.
477
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,880
Belinda understands
that Debbie's part of my life
478
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,960
and it goes from there.
479
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,480
I do think that a person who's on...
who gets the death penalty,
480
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,560
deserves to have an appeal.
481
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,000
I think that's... that's fair.
482
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,800
But if they do the crime,
483
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,760
you know, they need to pay the price.
484
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:02,680
Uh...
485
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,360
Because the people who...
486
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,440
do die, like Debbie,
487
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:11,360
they don't have a...
get to have an appeal,
488
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,840
they don't get to have a...
a second chance or...
489
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,960
You know, that's all taken away from them
in just the blink of an eye.
490
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:27,720
I was very blessed
491
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,400
that I had my sister and my mother
492
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,400
to help me with... with George.
493
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,080
But he missed having a mother.
494
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,640
She missed...
495
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:42,600
watching him walk.
496
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,880
Go to school, graduate, get married.
497
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,560
I still think about it today
498
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,200
that she doesn't get to see
499
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,560
how his life has turned out.
500
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,760
Um... He missed all that.
501
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,680
She missed all that. We missed all that.
502
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,320
[keys rattle in lock]
503
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:38,920
[door opens]
504
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,680
[clattering]
505
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,560
[door closes]
506
00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:49,880
[Toby] I often prayed for death.
507
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,640
I often prayed to God
that he would just take my life.
508
00:41:58,600 --> 00:41:59,760
That's changed now.
509
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,640
Glory to God, all of that's changed now.
510
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,360
I have accepted Christ
511
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,040
and I see things
from a different perspective
512
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,920
because now I have
an appreciation for life.
513
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,480
[Johnny] Debbie was...
514
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:20,880
my wife,
515
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:22,080
my friend,
516
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:23,440
my confidante.
517
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,280
There's no way
Toby Williams could ever pay...
518
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:33,840
for what happened that night.
519
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,880
You cannot replace somebody's life.
520
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:45,640
First of all, I would ask Mr. Johnny
and all his family to forgive me
521
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,800
for having interfered with their lives,
522
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,200
because I had no right to do such.
523
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,880
I realize and recognize
524
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,240
that... that I did something hideous
525
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,560
and if I could take that back,
I... I would.
526
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,560
Oftentimes, I pray for Mr. Moore.
527
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:10,960
Pray for his family as well.
528
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,760
I've considered that it must have been
tough for him to rebuild his life.
529
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,560
How am I trying to make amends?
530
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,040
I've written a book, um,
531
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,120
entitled A Date With Death: Redemption.
532
00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:28,320
It tells of my transformation.
533
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:32,440
I would like to take the proceeds
from that book
534
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,360
to start a nonprofit organization
in the name of Debbie Gail Moore
535
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,320
for the purpose of reaching out to people
who have endured, uh...
536
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,080
such as the crime that I committed
against her.
537
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,640
[John S. Walker] Toby Williams
proceeded to have them undress...
538
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,080
in the middle of the road,
in the wintertime.
539
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,920
He basically said,
"I want to see white folks fuck."
540
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,840
-[interviewer] Is that true?
-No, sir.
541
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,080
But you wanted them naked?
542
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:11,360
Yes, sir.
543
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,840
Why did you not mention that to us?
544
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,360
Um... it slipped my mind.
545
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,800
But I don't mind talking about it at all.
546
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,920
Um, the purpose was to, uh...
get them aligned.
547
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,720
To get them aligned, that was the purpose.
To get them aligned, uh... for one shot.
548
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,480
I wanted to be able to get away
as fast as possible
549
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,680
without drawing any attention
to what was going on.
550
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:54,680
It would be heartbreaking
551
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,200
to have to continue in this prison.
552
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,640
I look forward to one day
walking out of here.
553
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,400
[interviewer] How would you think
Johnny Moore might feel
554
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:09,560
if you were released?
555
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:10,640
[laughs]
556
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:13,120
Wow, that's something
I've never thought about.
557
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,320
That's something I've never thought about.
558
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:18,640
Uh...
559
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,480
I don't even know how to answer that.
560
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:22,760
Um...
561
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,320
I can say I believe
that he would feel angry by it
562
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,240
if I am released from this prison.