1
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Many claim a supplement has freed them
from a life of prescription pain pills,

2
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while others say it is a dangerous
unregulated substance.

3
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It's called kratom.

4
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What we're hoping to have today
is a meaningful discussion,

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and we have, joining us, a
panel of kratom proponents,

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documentary filmmaker, Chris Bell...

7
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<i>Why does
this always happen to me?</i>

8
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<i>It seems like I always end up in the middle.</i>

9
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<i>In my first film,</i> Bigger Stronger Faster,

10
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<i>my brothers were both using steroids,
and I wasn't.</i>

11
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<i>I was stuck in the middle of following
the rules, or being the best.</i>

12
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<i>In my second film,</i> Trophy Kids,

13
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<i>I ended up in the middle of anxious parents</i>

14
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<i>living vicariously through their children's
sports dreams.</i>

15
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Pull your head out of your ass, dude,
seriously.

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Can you be any stupider? How dumb!

17
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<i>In Prescription Thugs,</i>
I exposed Big Pharma...

18
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- How many pills a day were you doing?
- Ninety.

19
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<i>...as well as my own addiction
to opioid painkillers.</i>

20
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<i>See, the thing is, before I was a filmmaker,
I was a powerlifter</i>

21
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<i>and I wasn't half bad.</i>

22
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<i>Lifting gave me purpose.</i>

23
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<i>I was a shy, chubby kid.</i>

24
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<i>But when I started breaking records,</i>

25
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<i>and lifting more than my older brother
Mad Dog,</i>

26
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<i>people began to notice, and it felt good.</i>

27
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<i>I even got my little brother Smelly involved.</i>

28
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<i>At one point, we had so many trophies
from lifting,</i>

29
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<i>that we'd just throw them in the garbage.</i>

30
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<i>I no longer wanted to be like my heroes.</i>

31
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<i>I just wanted to be the
strongest man in the world.</i>

32
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<i>But what I didn't realize is, all
that wear and tear on the human body</i>

33
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<i>comes with a price.</i>

34
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<i>And, for me, that price was...</i>

35
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Pain.

36
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<i>Shortly after</i> Bigger Stronger Faster,

37
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<i>I had both of my hips completely replaced</i>

38
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<i>due to a genetic condition.</i>

39
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<i>My dad had hip surgery at 17.
So, it runs in the family.</i>

40
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<i>This is a double hip replacement surgery.
And I'm only 35 years old.</i>

41
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<i>Sounds scary, right? Well, not for me.</i>

42
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<i>They told me I was going to
be walking the same day.</i>

43
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<i>This is what they mean
by walking the same day.</i>

44
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<i>I'm high on painkillers. So,
all I can picture is myself</i>

45
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<i>all jacked and tan, in a</i> Rocky<i> montage,
making a comeback.</i>

46
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<i>The more it hurt, the more pills I took.</i>

47
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<i>But when I was about to turn that corner
and run up the stairs,</i>

48
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<i>my brother Mad Dog died in a sober
living facility, at 37 years old.</i>

49
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<i>After seeing my brother die, and knowing
that drugs were at the core of it,</i>

50
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<i>you would think I would stop taking pills.</i>

51
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<i>But at that point, it was too late.
I was addicted.</i>

52
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<i>My life was going off the rails,
but I wasn't the only one.</i>

53
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<i>It seemed like our whole country
was popping pills.</i>

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<i>American account for the use of
approximately 99% of one specific opioid,</i>

55
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<i>a powerful painkiller called hydrocodone.</i>

56
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Every day, 91 Americans die
from an overdose of opioids,

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<i>which include prescription
painkillers and heroin.</i>

58
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We know that four out of five new heroin users

59
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started on prescription pills.

60
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We saw more people die of drug overdoses

61
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than die of car accidents.

62
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<i>In and around
Huntington, West Virginia,</i>

63
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28 overdoses occurred in one five-hour span.

64
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<i>The point that everyone is missing
is that we don't have an opioid epidemic,</i>

65
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<i>we have a pain epidemic, and we're
just treating the wrong thing.</i>

66
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You've been doing a documentary about
all the different components

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of addiction, of selling these pills,

68
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and yet, you still got sucked into their web.

69
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Yeah, exactly, that's how powerful it is.

70
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But you are about as educated
about it as a person can be.

71
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I think now I am.

72
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<i>During the making of</i> Prescription
Thugs, <i>the film was delayed,</i>

73
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<i>and the funding got pulled,</i>

74
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<i>and I didn't know how to handle it.</i>

75
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<i>I relapsed and ended up back on pills.</i>

76
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<i>They say you haven't made it in Hollywood
until you've been to rehab.</i>

77
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<i>So, I went out to Malibu
to face my demons head on.</i>

78
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<i>But after 90 days of rehab, and doing
everything that was asked of me,</i>

79
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<i>there was one big glaring problem
that rehab couldn't fix:</i>

80
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<i>I was still in pain.</i>

81
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<i>I had kicked my addiction and was
back on the straight and narrow.</i>

82
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<i>I began searching for alternatives
to relieve my pain.</i>

83
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So, after I got done with the opioids,

84
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I was on Dr. Drew's show,

85
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and he said, "Well, you should try Advil
and Tylenol in combination."

86
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"That's going to be better than an opioid
for your chronic pain."

87
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So, I said, "Okay." I start trying that.

88
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Then I get a phone call from my friend
who lives in England,

89
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who tells me he just had a kidney transplant

90
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because of all the NSAIDs he was taking.

91
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<i>NSAIDs are non-steroidal
anti-inflammatories.</i>

92
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<i>Things like the painkillers found
in Advil, Aleve, and aspirin.</i>

93
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<i>So, what's the answer? Am I supposed to just
live with the pain?</i>

94
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<i>Then I get a call from a familiar voice.</i>

95
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It's good to see you. I missed you, man.
I haven't seen you in so long.

96
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- We haven't even talked in a while.
- What's up?

97
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<i>My friend Horshu said he'd discovered
the holy grail,</i>

98
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<i>a natural painkiller that won't kill you,
called kratom.</i>

99
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- When did you start taking it?
- About nine months ago. Yeah.

100
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- And how do you feel?
- I feel great.

101
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Yeah, so we talked in<i> Prescription Thugs,</i>

102
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you had "a massive, massive, massive stroke,"
in the words of your doctor.

103
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- Does it help with that?
- It helped me immensely.

104
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- How do you handle pain?
- I take kratom.

105
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- How did you handle it before?
- Look, man, I would stand up,

106
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I'd stand up, I'd walk like this.
You remember.

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I'd be walking like this.

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You know what I mean? Hunched
over for 20 minutes,

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- you know what I mean? Walking slow.
- Yes, slowly...

110
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Now I just stand up... Stand up, walk around.

111
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You know, when that study came out,

112
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<i>- I was like, "65 wrestlers under the age of 50..."
- Yeah.</i>

113
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- ..."have died. And they blame steroids all the time, right?"
- Yeah.

114
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It's not steroids. It's the wrong combination
of drugs.

115
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It's probably alcohol with Vicodin,
with cocaine, you know what I mean?

116
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<i>I knew as long as I
stuffed myself with painkillers,</i>

117
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I couldn't feel it, and I
couldn't feel the pain.

118
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And I would go as long as I could
until my body couldn't go anymore.

119
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Yeah, Vicodin and vodka
were my closest friends.

120
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- Wow.
- And my closest enemies.

121
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Once I had the stroke, I refused to go back
to pain pills.

122
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You know, before I had the stroke,

123
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I was doing about 90 pain
pills a day for seven years.

124
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And then when I had the
stroke, when I recovered,

125
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I refused to go back to pain pills.
And I found kratom.

126
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<i>Horshu pointed us to Vegas to meet
his friend Kelly,</i>

127
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<i>who's been selling kratom since 2010.</i>

128
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<i>He owns one of the top kratom companies</i>
<i>in the country.</i> I used to be into boats

129
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and boatracing, and so forth,
and I was in an accident

130
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where, you know, I broke my orbital,

131
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and broke the right side of
my face in a boat crash.

132
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When I went to the doctor, especially for
the orbital, there is nothing they can do.

133
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So, they give me pain medication.
They give me Percocets.

134
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And he gave me, I want to say 60 pills,
with three refills.

135
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- Worst off, I'd need it for...
- Yeah, a week.

136
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Yeah, a week maybe.

137
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Maybe four or five days, maybe.

138
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Like everybody else, I
started taking the Percs,

139
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and they kinda become a habit for me.

140
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Then you start thinking about, "Well, shit,"

141
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"my day might not function quite as well"

142
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"if I don't take this, I better take it."

143
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It led to the point where now when I
wanted to stop, I was going to get sick.

144
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Somebody had introduced me to kratom. I
was involved in the head shop industry.

145
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<i>I owned a couple of smoke shops at the time.</i>

146
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And introduced to kratom,

147
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and it was a real easy transition
out of the Percocets.

148
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What's so special about this stuff?
Why should we care about kratom?

149
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<i>You know, for one, because it's
been so helpful to so many people.</i>

150
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<i>We know that it's been a medicinal plant
for hundreds of years.</i>

151
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<i>There were tribes in Indonesia that used
to build their village</i>

152
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<i>around a series of kratom trees,</i>

153
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<i>because it was central to their way of life.</i>

154
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<i>So, if people have been using this
for hundreds of years,</i>

155
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<i>Why have I never heard of it?</i>

156
00:08:13,785 --> 00:08:17,122
<i>Dr. Darshan Singh has been studying
the traditional uses of kratom</i>

157
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<i>in his homeland of Malaysia
for over ten years.</i>

158
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I've been spending a lot of time
on kratom research in Malaysia,

159
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and in Malaysia I'm known as Dr. kratom,
okay?

160
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So, I'd been going in, trying to understand
why people use kratom.

161
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<i>If I were to make my own kratom tea
for personal consumption,</i>

162
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<i>I would just have to go behind my house and
just pluck maybe like about 20 leaves,</i>

163
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just brew it, and I would just switch off
the fire,

164
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and then allow it to cool down, and
then just consume it the whole day.

165
00:08:47,319 --> 00:08:50,238
So, you guys don't have an
opioid crisis like we have...

166
00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,366
Oh, we have opioid addiction problem.

167
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People are using kratom to
self-treat opioid abuse,

168
00:08:56,328 --> 00:08:58,746
alcohol abuse, and crystal meth abuse.

169
00:08:58,788 --> 00:09:01,875
You can actually use kratom
to treat chronic pain.

170
00:09:01,916 --> 00:09:04,336
<i>And you can also use it to
treat opioid addiction,</i>

171
00:09:04,378 --> 00:09:07,047
<i>because opioid addiction is
also associated with pain.</i>

172
00:09:07,088 --> 00:09:09,841
In traditional settings,
those who are using kratom,

173
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they are not labeled or stereotyped
as drug addicts or drug users.

174
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They do not engage in criminal behavior.

175
00:09:17,724 --> 00:09:21,561
<i>If you were to compare heroin or
morphine users on the street,</i>

176
00:09:21,602 --> 00:09:23,730
<i>they do engage in risky behaviors,</i>

177
00:09:23,771 --> 00:09:27,234
they do commit crime, because they have
to support their addictive behaviors.

178
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While kratom users, in traditional settings,

179
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they use kratom for medicinal purpose.

180
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And people living in Southeast Asia,

181
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like from where I'm coming, Malaysia,

182
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people have been using kratom
for over 200 years, okay?

183
00:09:38,912 --> 00:09:41,998
And you need to make sure that you have

184
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,045
genuine distributors of
kratom in the United States.

185
00:09:47,087 --> 00:09:51,508
<i>If kratom is so great, then why
haven't I seen it on store shelves?</i>

186
00:09:51,550 --> 00:09:55,345
<i>Probably 'cause you can't get it
at your local pharmacy or GNC.</i>

187
00:09:55,387 --> 00:09:58,515
<i>For now, you have to venture
into your local smoke shop.</i>

188
00:09:58,557 --> 00:10:01,059
<i>And that's not usually
where I get my medicine.</i>

189
00:10:01,101 --> 00:10:06,106
So, this is more what I would picture,
like, a supplement to look like.

190
00:10:06,147 --> 00:10:07,107
Yeah.

191
00:10:09,568 --> 00:10:10,527
Yeah.

192
00:10:12,779 --> 00:10:14,489
Happy kratom.

193
00:10:14,531 --> 00:10:18,659
I was in the army for six years, and I have
friends with PTSD, who...

194
00:10:18,701 --> 00:10:20,370
They give them this drug and that drug,

195
00:10:20,412 --> 00:10:23,206
and they all have bad side effects,
and they get hooked on them.

196
00:10:23,248 --> 00:10:25,459
But they can use this, not get hooked on it,

197
00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:27,586
and not have all the bad effects.

198
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I'm not going to say it's
going to cure it 100%.

199
00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:33,633
But it helps them live day-to-day
without having an outburst,

200
00:10:33,674 --> 00:10:36,219
or having a flashback.

201
00:10:36,261 --> 00:10:39,514
- It just lets them have a normal life.
- Yeah.

202
00:10:39,556 --> 00:10:42,976
I work seven days a week,
and my feet, trust me, they kill me.

203
00:10:43,017 --> 00:10:46,313
And then I take it, and
after, like, half an hour,

204
00:10:46,354 --> 00:10:50,775
it's a different feeling. I
don't feel that pain anymore.

205
00:10:50,817 --> 00:10:53,736
And it makes it easier for
me to go on with my day.

206
00:10:53,778 --> 00:10:55,738
<i>Okay, so people take kratom</i>

207
00:10:55,780 --> 00:10:57,698
<i>because they want to self-medicate.</i>

208
00:10:57,740 --> 00:11:02,162
<i>But before I try it, I wanted to
talk to an expert on this stuff.</i>

209
00:11:02,203 --> 00:11:04,038
<i>So, I found Dr. Schoenwetter.</i>

210
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,375
<i>He has a lot of patients come to him
to ween off of opiates.</i>

211
00:11:07,417 --> 00:11:09,794
<i>And often times, he recommends kratom.</i>

212
00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:13,465
<i>He's also been tracking the progress
of over 100 of his patients</i>

213
00:11:13,507 --> 00:11:15,008
<i>that are taking the plant.</i>

214
00:11:15,049 --> 00:11:19,053
There are so many compounds within the plant,

215
00:11:19,095 --> 00:11:21,556
that the plant itself is a virtual pharmacy.

216
00:11:21,598 --> 00:11:25,519
The beauty of this, of course,
is that you don't need me

217
00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:27,228
to write it on a piece of paper.

218
00:11:27,270 --> 00:11:29,063
You can just get it yourself.

219
00:11:29,105 --> 00:11:32,275
So, it's a great backup tool if you
need something with a little more

220
00:11:32,317 --> 00:11:34,068
oomph than leaf.

221
00:11:34,110 --> 00:11:38,072
<i>There's a thing called affinity,
and a thing called activity.</i>

222
00:11:38,114 --> 00:11:41,784
<i>Affinity is how much substance
will stick to a receptor.</i>

223
00:11:43,995 --> 00:11:47,790
<i>So, if you can imagine having superglue
on your finger,</i>

224
00:11:47,832 --> 00:11:51,044
<i>and touching a piano key...</i>

225
00:11:51,085 --> 00:11:53,838
<i>...you've got a very high degree of affinity.</i>

226
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,217
<i>But activity... Even
though you're stuck to the key,</i>

227
00:11:57,258 --> 00:12:01,304
<i>you may not be able to
press the key very loud.</i>

228
00:12:01,346 --> 00:12:05,559
<i>Kratom seems to have a high affinity</i>

229
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,936
<i>for some of the opioid receptors,
but it has a ceiling</i>

230
00:12:08,978 --> 00:12:12,190
<i>and so, it has a limited activity.</i>

231
00:12:12,232 --> 00:12:15,902
<i>It's not dangerous. But heroin,
or a strong opiate,</i>

232
00:12:15,943 --> 00:12:18,029
<i>can push the key to make it really loud.</i>

233
00:12:22,783 --> 00:12:26,829
<i>Whereas buprenorphine and kratom aren't able
to make it as loud.</i>

234
00:12:26,871 --> 00:12:30,667
<i>They're stuck to the key, but they
can't make it play as loud.</i>

235
00:12:31,626 --> 00:12:33,211
I'm taking it today

236
00:12:33,253 --> 00:12:35,796
because I've had problems with arthritis
and a knee effusion.

237
00:12:35,838 --> 00:12:38,675
So, I'm able now to get off the walker,

238
00:12:38,717 --> 00:12:42,136
and get off the offloader knee brace,
and I'm back to myself.

239
00:12:42,178 --> 00:12:45,223
So, tell me how you came across kratom.

240
00:12:45,265 --> 00:12:48,059
I got introduced to it as the guy

241
00:12:48,101 --> 00:12:49,894
who was putting gas in the car.

242
00:12:49,936 --> 00:12:51,938
<i>My wife had a migraine headache.</i>

243
00:12:51,979 --> 00:12:55,358
<i>She said, "Well, I'll go dig up
something here at the station."</i>

244
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,776
<i>At that time, a lady of the evening
was stepping in.</i>

245
00:12:57,818 --> 00:13:00,321
<i>And reached behind by the cigarettes,</i>

246
00:13:00,363 --> 00:13:03,658
<i>and alcohol, and pulled out a packet
of kratom.</i>

247
00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:06,494
<i>My wife immediately said, "What's that?"</i>

248
00:13:06,536 --> 00:13:09,956
<i>The kind lady said, "It makes a lot
of the aches and pains just go away."</i>

249
00:13:09,997 --> 00:13:11,583
<i>Karen says, "I'll take one."</i>

250
00:13:11,625 --> 00:13:13,834
Got in the car and said, "Phil,
what do you know about this?"

251
00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:18,339
I know nothing. Absolutely nothing.

252
00:13:18,381 --> 00:13:23,511
I drove on. We headed south, and
about 65 miles later, she said,

253
00:13:23,553 --> 00:13:25,597
"Phil, the headache's gone."

254
00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:28,558
I said, "Really?" I said, "Do you feel drowsy,
dopey, sleepy?"

255
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:29,892
"No, I want to drive down."

256
00:13:29,934 --> 00:13:32,437
Have you seen a lot of
side effects with kratom?

257
00:13:33,772 --> 00:13:36,441
Gastrointestinal is the
predominant side effect.

258
00:13:36,483 --> 00:13:39,444
I took a whole bag myself
just to push the limits,

259
00:13:39,486 --> 00:13:42,280
to see if I was giving anyone a toxic dose.

260
00:13:42,322 --> 00:13:44,365
I got constipated.

261
00:13:44,407 --> 00:13:46,200
- That's about it?
- That's it.

262
00:13:46,242 --> 00:13:49,120
<i>Dr. Schoenwetter assured
me that kratom was safe.</i>

263
00:13:49,162 --> 00:13:51,247
<i>But let's check out the science.</i>

264
00:13:51,289 --> 00:13:56,711
Went to pharmacy school to understand
what it is about drugs

265
00:13:56,753 --> 00:14:00,548
that can make us heal, or can hurt us.

266
00:14:00,590 --> 00:14:02,592
<i>This is Dr. Chris McCurdy.</i>

267
00:14:02,634 --> 00:14:05,219
<i>He is a professor at the
University of Florida,</i>

268
00:14:05,261 --> 00:14:07,846
<i>and the world-leading expert on kratom.</i>

269
00:14:07,888 --> 00:14:11,351
<i>We kind of relate the abuse
potential of the plant itself,</i>

270
00:14:11,392 --> 00:14:13,561
kind of similar to that of coffee.

271
00:14:13,603 --> 00:14:16,314
And it's interesting, 'cause
it's in the coffee family.

272
00:14:16,356 --> 00:14:18,941
And so what we've done is
systematically gone through,

273
00:14:18,983 --> 00:14:21,402
as I mentioned, looking at
the individual compounds,

274
00:14:21,444 --> 00:14:24,364
and started taking out certain alkaloids

275
00:14:24,405 --> 00:14:26,991
that we thought might be responsible
for that effect.

276
00:14:27,033 --> 00:14:29,661
And we've got down to a modified extract

277
00:14:29,703 --> 00:14:32,079
that didn't show any side effects on its own.

278
00:14:32,121 --> 00:14:33,956
<i>What's different about kratom</i>

279
00:14:33,998 --> 00:14:37,669
<i>is the fact that it not only interacts
with that new opioid receptor,</i>

280
00:14:37,711 --> 00:14:40,463
<i>it also interacts with dopamine receptors.</i>

281
00:14:40,505 --> 00:14:42,382
<i>So, when you activate dopamine systems,</i>

282
00:14:42,423 --> 00:14:44,091
<i>you feel pleasurable, you feel good.</i>

283
00:14:44,133 --> 00:14:46,886
<i>We ran the most comprehensive target screen
on it</i>

284
00:14:46,927 --> 00:14:50,139
<i>that's ever been published, and we came back
with this profile</i>

285
00:14:50,181 --> 00:14:53,643
<i>that says serotonin, dopamine,
alpha-adrenergic, and opioid.</i>

286
00:14:53,685 --> 00:14:57,313
<i>And I was like, "Holy cow,
this is maybe the one drug</i>

287
00:14:57,355 --> 00:15:01,067
that could really treat opioid addiction

288
00:15:01,108 --> 00:15:04,070
in a single chemical entity.

289
00:15:04,111 --> 00:15:06,656
There may be a cure for the pain.

290
00:15:06,698 --> 00:15:08,324
We think we're well on our way.

291
00:15:08,366 --> 00:15:10,869
<i>We get these mice addicted to morphine</i>

292
00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:14,664
if we give them a antagonist, Naloxone,

293
00:15:14,706 --> 00:15:17,166
they will go into full withdrawal.

294
00:15:17,208 --> 00:15:19,377
<i>What we call "wet dog shakes,"</i>

295
00:15:19,419 --> 00:15:22,714
just like when a dog gets out of a pond
and dries itself off,

296
00:15:22,756 --> 00:15:24,549
- but these animals aren't wet.
- Yeah.

297
00:15:24,591 --> 00:15:29,095
They'll chatter their teeth. You
can literally hear them, the mice.

298
00:15:29,136 --> 00:15:32,265
And then they'll have paw tremors.

299
00:15:32,306 --> 00:15:36,102
<i>Most of the animals don't have very severe
withdrawal after methadone,</i>

300
00:15:36,143 --> 00:15:40,940
but the issue with methadone is
they've continued to lose weight.

301
00:15:40,981 --> 00:15:44,193
And so, it seems that the methadone

302
00:15:44,235 --> 00:15:49,783
is taking over their normal
innate behavior to want to eat

303
00:15:49,824 --> 00:15:54,370
<i>versus the animals that we habituate to
morphine, and then switch over to kratom.</i>

304
00:15:54,412 --> 00:15:56,497
They return to eating normally.

305
00:15:56,539 --> 00:16:00,960
And their body weight comes back to
what it was when we started with them.

306
00:16:01,001 --> 00:16:04,088
Or, a little bit above, which
is where you'd wanna be,

307
00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:06,716
'cause we're using these animals
in their growth phase.

308
00:16:06,758 --> 00:16:08,259
<i>As a scientist studying it,</i>

309
00:16:08,301 --> 00:16:10,470
<i>- do you try it yourself?
- I've never tried it.</i>

310
00:16:10,511 --> 00:16:12,555
<i>We've brewed teas in the lab,</i>

311
00:16:12,597 --> 00:16:15,809
but from the science standpoint, I
don't want to be dated or biased

312
00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:17,685
<i>in my opinion of it.</i>

313
00:16:17,727 --> 00:16:20,020
- Have you ever tried it?
- Yeah, I have.

314
00:16:20,062 --> 00:16:23,357
- And what was your effects?
- Mild mood elevation.

315
00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:26,486
And I'm not in pain, so it's hard to comment
on any analgesic effects.

316
00:16:26,527 --> 00:16:27,612
Yeah.

317
00:16:27,654 --> 00:16:29,280
Kratom represents a great starting point

318
00:16:29,322 --> 00:16:31,991
for developing new, safer pain relievers

319
00:16:32,032 --> 00:16:34,911
to replace the opioids that we have now
on the market.

320
00:16:34,953 --> 00:16:41,208
And also, potential implications for treating
mood disorders like depression and anxiety.

321
00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:43,085
But these are a bit ratty-looking.

322
00:16:43,127 --> 00:16:45,296
Does it smell?

323
00:16:46,881 --> 00:16:48,842
- Smells like leaves.
- Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, wow.

324
00:16:48,883 --> 00:16:50,802
- So, that's all it is, huh?
- Yeah.

325
00:16:52,846 --> 00:16:55,473
And this is the mitragynine.

326
00:16:55,515 --> 00:16:58,643
So, that's what it looks
like, it's just a powder.

327
00:16:58,685 --> 00:17:01,688
So, what you do is you make it, and
then you just run tests on it?

328
00:17:01,729 --> 00:17:05,441
Yeah, we run tests in cells,
and we run tests on animals, so...

329
00:17:05,483 --> 00:17:07,986
And we try to extrapolate from that to humans,

330
00:17:08,027 --> 00:17:09,946
but of course, there's limits to that.

331
00:17:09,988 --> 00:17:13,616
So, this is what it looks like when it
still has the chlorophyll impurities.

332
00:17:13,658 --> 00:17:15,242
- It's green like the leaf.
- Yeah.

333
00:17:15,284 --> 00:17:17,036
Well, what's your goal? What
do you wanna do with it?

334
00:17:17,077 --> 00:17:19,497
My goal is to make all these analogues

335
00:17:19,539 --> 00:17:22,583
and try to come up with a better version
of the compounds

336
00:17:22,625 --> 00:17:24,460
that are out there in the plant itself.

337
00:17:24,502 --> 00:17:27,505
And eventually, bring that to market
as an FDA-approved drug...

338
00:17:27,547 --> 00:17:29,382
- <i>Sure.
- ...to replace oxycodone</i>

339
00:17:29,423 --> 00:17:31,300
<i>and the strong painkillers.</i>

340
00:17:31,342 --> 00:17:34,178
I mean, I think there's a place for
both, you know, new pharmaceuticals

341
00:17:34,220 --> 00:17:37,724
that we develop synthetically, starting from
the kratom alkaloids,

342
00:17:37,765 --> 00:17:41,519
and also for kratom itself to be legal.
There's no reason they can't co-exist.

343
00:17:41,561 --> 00:17:44,898
'Cause I really think they're addressing
different issues.

344
00:17:44,939 --> 00:17:47,066
<i>This is Kratom 101.</i>

345
00:17:47,107 --> 00:17:50,152
<i>Kratom comes from the
plant</i> Mitragyna speciosa.

346
00:17:50,194 --> 00:17:53,781
<i>It's a plant in the coffee family
that grows in Southeast Asia.</i>

347
00:17:53,823 --> 00:17:57,535
<i>The kratom plant has been chewed, ground up,
or drank as a tea</i>

348
00:17:57,577 --> 00:18:01,247
<i>for over 2,000 years in traditional
and religious rituals,</i>

349
00:18:01,288 --> 00:18:04,042
<i>with zero history of fatal poisonings
or deaths,</i>

350
00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:06,044
<i>and very little known abuse.</i>

351
00:18:06,085 --> 00:18:08,546
<i>Kratom is made up of over 40 alkaloids.</i>

352
00:18:08,588 --> 00:18:12,675
<i>What are alkaloids? Alkaloids are the active
ingredient in the plant.</i>

353
00:18:12,717 --> 00:18:15,386
<i>Caffeine is an alkaloid of coffee or tea.</i>

354
00:18:15,428 --> 00:18:19,223
<i>The active alkaloids in kratom that are
responsible for its health effects</i>

355
00:18:19,265 --> 00:18:23,352
<i>are mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine.</i>

356
00:18:23,394 --> 00:18:27,690
<i>The way the plant is set up, at low doses,
it works like a good cup of coffee.</i>

357
00:18:27,732 --> 00:18:31,402
<i>At high doses, it works like
a mild opioid painkiller.</i>

358
00:18:31,444 --> 00:18:35,031
<i>These alkaloids affect what is called
the Mu Opioid Receptor.</i>

359
00:18:35,073 --> 00:18:38,117
<i>That's in your brain. What else does it do?</i>

360
00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:41,079
<i>Well, nothing that's actually been
studied on humans,</i>

361
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,456
<i>but it's been reported
to lower blood pressure,</i>

362
00:18:43,497 --> 00:18:46,084
<i>relieve pain, boost metabolism,</i>

363
00:18:46,125 --> 00:18:49,087
<i>improve your immune system, ease anxiety,</i>

364
00:18:49,128 --> 00:18:51,672
<i>help with addiction, eliminate stress,</i>

365
00:18:51,714 --> 00:18:54,592
<i>prevent diabetes, induce healthy sleep,</i>

366
00:18:54,634 --> 00:18:56,761
<i>and improve sexual energy.</i>

367
00:18:56,803 --> 00:18:59,889
<i>These statements have not been evaluated</i>
<i>by the FDA.</i> We were talking about, what,

368
00:19:01,975 --> 00:19:05,061
I think we say, kratom?

369
00:19:05,103 --> 00:19:06,938
- Yeah, yeah.
- It's called kratom.

370
00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:08,982
I'm gonna take some right now.

371
00:19:09,023 --> 00:19:13,152
It takes, like, an hour to kick in, and so...
And this is a very mild dose.

372
00:19:13,193 --> 00:19:17,281
It is 12:23. At 1:23, I'm going to start
asking weird questions.

373
00:19:17,323 --> 00:19:21,744
<i>Comedian Shane Mauss used kratom
to help him after a nasty accident.</i>

374
00:19:21,786 --> 00:19:26,040
About three years ago, I was out hiking.
Best shape of my life.

375
00:19:26,082 --> 00:19:30,169
<i>And I jumped off a thing
that was much too high.</i>

376
00:19:30,210 --> 00:19:34,632
And I broke both my heels,
one of them exploded.

377
00:19:34,674 --> 00:19:36,884
Had to crawl down a mountain for a few hours.

378
00:19:36,926 --> 00:19:39,178
That's doctor's words, is that it exploded.

379
00:19:39,219 --> 00:19:41,973
I was like, "Really? That's your diagnosis?"

380
00:19:42,015 --> 00:19:44,266
Says my heel exploded.

381
00:19:44,308 --> 00:19:47,979
- They must have had you on opioids, right?
- They did, yeah.

382
00:19:48,021 --> 00:19:50,356
I remember the day I got
my first shot of morphine,

383
00:19:50,397 --> 00:19:53,109
and right away, I was like, "Whoa! I get it."

384
00:19:53,151 --> 00:19:55,361
"I get why people like this."

385
00:19:55,402 --> 00:19:58,238
I don't understand how
both of my feet are broken

386
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,743
and this is the best I've ever felt
in my entire life.

387
00:20:02,785 --> 00:20:04,996
I don't see how that's a legal thing.

388
00:20:05,038 --> 00:20:08,749
This is all pretty numb in here.
It's coming back.

389
00:20:08,791 --> 00:20:10,417
It feels better all the time.

390
00:20:10,459 --> 00:20:15,339
The reason why I'm wearing these
baby-skinned bootsies

391
00:20:15,381 --> 00:20:17,925
is because my girlfriend
picked them out for me.

392
00:20:17,967 --> 00:20:21,971
And she controls the puss distribution.

393
00:20:22,013 --> 00:20:28,019
I was just complaining about my dumb foot
to a bunch of comics,

394
00:20:28,061 --> 00:20:31,022
and they were like, "Oh, you should go
to the kratom bar,"

395
00:20:31,064 --> 00:20:32,523
and I was like, "What's that?"

396
00:20:33,482 --> 00:20:34,942
They're like, "Oh, it's this...

397
00:20:34,984 --> 00:20:37,444
It's supposed to be good for pain relief,

398
00:20:37,486 --> 00:20:40,406
and it's some natural thing.

399
00:20:40,447 --> 00:20:42,783
<i>And you can go to a bar and drink it."</i>

400
00:20:42,825 --> 00:20:47,580
<i>And I found out that it's legal, and I
was like, "Eh, it's probably no good."</i>

401
00:20:52,919 --> 00:20:55,922
Roots and leaves in a traditional bilo cup.

402
00:20:55,963 --> 00:20:58,382
That's Komodo. That's our bestseller.

403
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,186
Earthy notes
with an oaky finish, huh?

404
00:21:10,228 --> 00:21:12,312
Oh, that was bad. Ugh.

405
00:21:12,354 --> 00:21:14,857
<i>Earthy notes means
it tastes like dirt.</i>

406
00:21:14,899 --> 00:21:18,402
<i>But after about 30 minutes, I began noticing
that I was more focused,</i>

407
00:21:18,444 --> 00:21:21,781
<i>more alert, and more important, out of pain.</i>

408
00:21:21,822 --> 00:21:25,659
And all of a sudden, I could walk
like a normal person.

409
00:21:25,701 --> 00:21:28,370
Like, I hadn't walked so
well since my accident

410
00:21:28,412 --> 00:21:32,750
in two-and-a-half years, or whatever it was
at that point.

411
00:21:32,792 --> 00:21:37,922
And I was like, "This is amazing.
What is this stuff?"

412
00:21:37,964 --> 00:21:43,302
There was one other place, a head shop
in Chicago, which sold it in 2006.

413
00:21:43,343 --> 00:21:45,721
Then we started. You know, we were looking
for different herbs.

414
00:21:45,763 --> 00:21:50,726
That's what we sell here, raw indigenous herbs
and beverages.

415
00:21:50,768 --> 00:21:52,603
And then we try kratom, and people are like,

416
00:21:52,645 --> 00:21:54,396
"Hey, what was that stuff you had?"

417
00:21:54,438 --> 00:21:56,107
<i>And we started ordering it.</i>

418
00:21:56,149 --> 00:21:59,777
You're basically just grinding raw leaf...

419
00:21:59,819 --> 00:22:02,947
- put it in water, or juice, or whatever,
- Yep. Kava.

420
00:22:02,989 --> 00:22:04,406
<i>- And yeah, kava.
- Kava root.</i>

421
00:22:04,448 --> 00:22:06,075
<i>Just making drinks, right?</i>

422
00:22:06,117 --> 00:22:08,786
<i>It's as raw as you get,
it's raw as you get.</i>

423
00:22:08,828 --> 00:22:10,537
<i>What's it do for you?</i>

424
00:22:10,579 --> 00:22:14,374
It's, like, a calm energy you can
get, just a focused, clear mind.

425
00:22:14,416 --> 00:22:17,962
It's relaxing, but it's stimulating
at the same time.

426
00:22:18,004 --> 00:22:21,507
It's nice to come here and have a place to go
instead of going to the bar.

427
00:22:21,548 --> 00:22:25,636
- Exactly, just somewhere to go, mellow. So...
- Yeah.

428
00:22:25,678 --> 00:22:27,221
How often do you come here?

429
00:22:27,263 --> 00:22:30,975
Um, I come here kind of every day.

430
00:22:31,017 --> 00:22:32,768
I used to take Adderall.

431
00:22:32,810 --> 00:22:35,395
I don't take it anymore. I took it all through
growing up and stuff.

432
00:22:35,437 --> 00:22:38,649
Yeah, it just takes the edge off in general,
you know.

433
00:22:38,691 --> 00:22:43,361
If you're feeling kinda tense, which
I usually am for whatever reason.

434
00:22:43,403 --> 00:22:46,740
<i>Wow, kratom looks like a game changer.</i>

435
00:22:46,782 --> 00:22:51,037
<i>But then I turned on the news, and things
started looking a little different.</i>

436
00:22:51,078 --> 00:22:56,917
<i>I should have known, if something sounds
too good to be true, it probably is.</i>

437
00:22:56,959 --> 00:22:59,503
...Feds gearing up for a kratom crackdown.

438
00:22:59,545 --> 00:23:01,005
Don't know the drug?

439
00:23:01,047 --> 00:23:03,381
You should. You can actually
buy it in stores right now.

440
00:23:03,423 --> 00:23:06,052
<i>It comes in
pills, powder, and liquid.</i>

441
00:23:06,093 --> 00:23:10,931
<i>And in one month, the DEA is ordering kratom
off all store shelves,</i>

442
00:23:10,973 --> 00:23:12,975
<i>putting it on the same level as heroin.</i>

443
00:23:13,017 --> 00:23:15,519
Kratom can be purchased
over the counter right now,

444
00:23:15,561 --> 00:23:17,021
but in a month, it'll be illegal.

445
00:23:17,063 --> 00:23:18,522
Dave, right now it looks like I'm holding

446
00:23:18,564 --> 00:23:20,941
a vitamin supplement, but a month from now,

447
00:23:20,983 --> 00:23:23,861
this will look an awful lot
like felony possession.

448
00:23:23,903 --> 00:23:26,655
<i>On August 30th, 2016,</i>

449
00:23:26,697 --> 00:23:30,117
<i>the DEA issued a notice of
an intent to ban kratom.</i>

450
00:23:30,159 --> 00:23:33,120
The FDA has decided

451
00:23:33,162 --> 00:23:37,041
it's in Schedule I, therefore,
because it has no medical value,

452
00:23:37,083 --> 00:23:39,335
there is a high potential for abuse.

453
00:23:39,377 --> 00:23:40,711
And most importantly,

454
00:23:40,753 --> 00:23:43,589
<i>we're now getting data from
folks around the country,</i>

455
00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:46,342
<i>that people are dying from kratom overdoses.</i>

456
00:23:46,384 --> 00:23:48,135
<i>They cited 15 deaths</i>

457
00:23:48,177 --> 00:23:50,888
<i>and over 600 calls to poison control centers,</i>

458
00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:53,391
<i>which deemed it a national health emergency.</i>

459
00:23:58,729 --> 00:24:01,815
- Freeze!
- Hey, guys, guys, it's only vitamins.

460
00:24:01,857 --> 00:24:05,778
<i>The DEA said they wanted
no public opinion on the matter.</i>

461
00:24:05,819 --> 00:24:09,115
<i>But we live in the era of
Twitter and Joe Rogan.</i>

462
00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:11,742
<i>And the Internet responded.</i>

463
00:24:11,784 --> 00:24:15,371
And apparently it helps a lot of people
that have heroin addiction problems

464
00:24:15,413 --> 00:24:16,830
and opioid addiction problems.

465
00:24:16,872 --> 00:24:19,292
And now, all of a sudden,
people are going to have to go

466
00:24:19,333 --> 00:24:21,835
right back to finding
whatever they used to take.

467
00:24:21,877 --> 00:24:25,714
Go to the link below to find your senator
and drop them an email tonight.

468
00:24:25,756 --> 00:24:27,841
But the worst thing the DEA said to me was,

469
00:24:27,883 --> 00:24:30,136
where they noted that their biggest concern
with kratom

470
00:24:30,177 --> 00:24:34,640
was the fact that some people were using it
as an alternative to heroin and opioids.

471
00:24:36,392 --> 00:24:39,561
No fucking shit.

472
00:24:39,603 --> 00:24:42,315
I'm Kristin Jacobs, mayor of Broward County...

473
00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:44,650
<i>But not everybody is so pro-kratom.</i>

474
00:24:44,691 --> 00:24:46,693
<i>Meet Kristin Jacobs.</i>

475
00:24:46,735 --> 00:24:49,322
<i>She's on a mission to ban kratom in Florida.</i>

476
00:24:49,363 --> 00:24:51,615
<i>And it looked like she was doing
a pretty good job.</i>

477
00:24:51,657 --> 00:24:53,867
<i>Broward State
representative Kristin Jacobs</i>

478
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:55,911
<i>even compares it to heroin.</i>

479
00:24:55,953 --> 00:25:01,125
So, I think it is a tragedy what's happening
in this country, the addiction.

480
00:25:01,167 --> 00:25:04,628
And the stigma that's associated with it,
and the cost of recovery.

481
00:25:04,670 --> 00:25:07,756
And the horrific withdrawal
that you go through.

482
00:25:07,798 --> 00:25:11,427
It's a horrible, horrible
thing to have to experience.

483
00:25:11,469 --> 00:25:13,637
I promised you that by today,

484
00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:16,807
I would basically send around a blizzard
of information

485
00:25:16,849 --> 00:25:20,394
as many of you have not heard
of the word kratom before.

486
00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:25,024
To me, the effects of kratom mimic the effects
of opioid drugs.

487
00:25:25,065 --> 00:25:26,608
This is not prescribed.

488
00:25:26,650 --> 00:25:29,903
This has not been tested by the Food and Drug
Administration.

489
00:25:29,945 --> 00:25:32,198
In detox, several people offer kratom.

490
00:25:32,239 --> 00:25:34,908
I will tell you, it is harder to
detox somebody off of kratom,

491
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:36,576
than it is to detox somebody off of heroin.

492
00:25:36,618 --> 00:25:39,537
And then they also say
that it is not addictive.

493
00:25:39,579 --> 00:25:41,457
It's no more addictive than a cup of coffee.

494
00:25:41,499 --> 00:25:44,626
But when you talk to doctors and you talk
to the scientists,

495
00:25:44,668 --> 00:25:46,753
and you talk to those epidemiologists

496
00:25:46,795 --> 00:25:49,048
that have been following this drug
and the claims of others,

497
00:25:49,089 --> 00:25:51,591
you see that, in fact,
those claims are not true.

498
00:25:51,633 --> 00:25:54,678
And then you start to talk
to people who've used it,

499
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,848
- people who've lost loved ones too.
- Sure.

500
00:25:57,890 --> 00:25:59,641
And their stories are significantly different.

501
00:25:59,683 --> 00:26:02,811
Is there a way to keep this on the market
while we research it more?

502
00:26:02,853 --> 00:26:05,523
You know what, I understand when
someone's addicted to a drug,

503
00:26:05,563 --> 00:26:07,565
they don't want someone to
come take the drug away.

504
00:26:07,607 --> 00:26:09,318
The pain of recovery

505
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:12,696
and withdrawals from any drug is
a horrific thing to go through,

506
00:26:12,738 --> 00:26:15,074
- and it's a horrific thing for any family to see.
- Sure.

507
00:26:15,115 --> 00:26:17,284
The fact that those that are using it,

508
00:26:17,326 --> 00:26:19,412
will tell you that it's not addictive

509
00:26:19,453 --> 00:26:21,080
and they can get off at any time,

510
00:26:21,121 --> 00:26:23,916
that's the voice of
addiction telling you that.

511
00:26:23,957 --> 00:26:26,252
Generally, what happens is

512
00:26:26,293 --> 00:26:29,422
the money that you need to buy those drugs
soon runs out,

513
00:26:29,463 --> 00:26:31,465
and so you start finding
other ways to find dollars.

514
00:26:31,507 --> 00:26:35,302
You may take it from your family
or other easier opportunities...

515
00:26:35,344 --> 00:26:37,054
I haven't read anything about that.

516
00:26:37,096 --> 00:26:38,931
I've researched this every single day
since we started this project.

517
00:26:38,972 --> 00:26:43,018
I haven't heard people stealing money or doing
anything, like, illegal,

518
00:26:43,060 --> 00:26:44,228
to get this drug.

519
00:26:44,270 --> 00:26:46,230
Now, that's unfortunate, that's unfortunate.

520
00:26:46,272 --> 00:26:48,148
'Cause I believe you'll
talk to someone tomorrow

521
00:26:48,190 --> 00:26:50,443
that has, that you'll
interview that did just that.

522
00:26:50,484 --> 00:26:53,153
He was stealing from the family.

523
00:26:53,195 --> 00:26:56,782
He'd already ripped me off
for, you know, 400 bucks,

524
00:26:56,823 --> 00:26:58,867
taken my debit card,

525
00:26:58,909 --> 00:27:01,161
<i>and he drove to the top of that overpass</i>

526
00:27:01,203 --> 00:27:03,663
<i>which was just a two-minute drive.</i>

527
00:27:03,705 --> 00:27:06,500
<i>He got out of the car, he
walked across the street,</i>

528
00:27:06,542 --> 00:27:08,668
to the south-bound side,

529
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:11,629
took off his sandals and dove head first.

530
00:27:11,671 --> 00:27:13,257
<i>Ian Mautner's autopsy report</i>

531
00:27:13,299 --> 00:27:16,218
<i>showed an unknown amount of
what's called mitragynine,</i>

532
00:27:16,260 --> 00:27:18,095
<i>the active ingredient in kratom.</i>

533
00:27:18,137 --> 00:27:20,638
<i>Also listed, a number of antidepressants.</i>

534
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,016
<i>Linda believes it was Ian's addiction
to kratom</i>

535
00:27:23,058 --> 00:27:25,060
<i>that ultimately sent him over the edge.</i>

536
00:27:25,102 --> 00:27:27,229
<i>He was the kind of kid
that I could trust.</i>

537
00:27:27,271 --> 00:27:29,773
<i>He always told me everything.</i>

538
00:27:29,815 --> 00:27:31,900
<i>- We were super, super close.
- Mm-hmm.</i>

539
00:27:31,942 --> 00:27:34,445
<i>And he invited me to the kava bar.</i>

540
00:27:34,487 --> 00:27:38,532
He was spending a lot of money there,
like about 50 bucks a day.

541
00:27:38,574 --> 00:27:41,118
<i>And when I went there, I
didn't know what kratom was.</i>

542
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,744
<i>You know, I had a drink...</i>

543
00:27:42,786 --> 00:27:44,955
<i>A couple of times I went down there
and had a drink.</i>

544
00:27:44,997 --> 00:27:47,416
I actually called my sponsor

545
00:27:47,458 --> 00:27:50,752
and I said, "You know, I tried this stuff.
Ian's doing this a lot."

546
00:27:50,794 --> 00:27:52,546
And she said, "You need to be careful,

547
00:27:52,588 --> 00:27:54,798
you know, because that doesn't sound good."

548
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,675
- So, how long have you been sober for?
- For 22 years now.

549
00:27:57,717 --> 00:27:59,470
- Congratulations. That's amazing.
- Thanks.

550
00:27:59,512 --> 00:28:03,015
And I said, "Ian, if you're doing drugs,
this is really bad",

551
00:28:03,056 --> 00:28:05,434
because it can trigger the brain,

552
00:28:05,476 --> 00:28:10,147
and set off things, you know, like
bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.

553
00:28:10,189 --> 00:28:12,358
And he said, "Mom, I'm not doing drugs."

554
00:28:12,399 --> 00:28:16,529
You know, and it was... It became like
fighting that was going on between us.

555
00:28:16,570 --> 00:28:20,115
I mean, he'd spend hours in the bathroom
picking his face,

556
00:28:20,157 --> 00:28:22,451
and one time the mirror even came off.

557
00:28:22,493 --> 00:28:25,912
You know, the bathroom wall detached.

558
00:28:25,954 --> 00:28:28,290
And why do you think he was picking his face?
Like, what was he doing?

559
00:28:28,332 --> 00:28:30,209
We thought it was meth.

560
00:28:30,250 --> 00:28:32,628
Like, sometimes he'd be so sedated

561
00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:35,631
that his eyes would roll back in his head.

562
00:28:35,673 --> 00:28:38,967
And he'd talk to me and he'd go, "Mother..."

563
00:28:39,009 --> 00:28:41,512
<i>- You know, and he'd nod off.
- Yeah.</i>

564
00:28:41,554 --> 00:28:44,890
<i>- And that sounds more like a heroin...</i>
- Heroin...

565
00:28:44,931 --> 00:28:48,435
<i>Nodding off on, like, pills or something
like that. That's kinda very similar.</i>

566
00:28:48,477 --> 00:28:51,813
More important, you know,
important for parents,

567
00:28:51,855 --> 00:28:55,234
- he was on medication as well, right, for...
- Yes.

568
00:28:55,275 --> 00:28:59,154
- Psychological issues, right? So...
- Yes.

569
00:28:59,196 --> 00:29:02,408
If you're on medication and you're taking
something that affects your brain,

570
00:29:02,449 --> 00:29:06,161
then we're really, you know, kinda playing
Russian roulette there.

571
00:29:06,203 --> 00:29:08,830
You don't know what you're
getting into at all.

572
00:29:08,872 --> 00:29:12,251
I've been accused of everything,
from, you know, on blogs,

573
00:29:12,292 --> 00:29:15,462
from kicking my son out of the house
because he was gay.

574
00:29:16,213 --> 00:29:19,341
You know, that's...

575
00:29:19,383 --> 00:29:23,887
What's that got to do with it, you know?
That came out in therapy.

576
00:29:23,929 --> 00:29:26,806
This was a different person.
This was addiction.

577
00:29:26,848 --> 00:29:30,102
This was living in my house,
and I couldn't have that.

578
00:29:30,143 --> 00:29:33,146
You don't put any other stuff in your drink?

579
00:29:33,188 --> 00:29:36,024
- It's kava and kratom, right?
- It's as raw as you get.

580
00:29:36,066 --> 00:29:39,695
Because Linda Mautner told me that you guys
lace the drinks.

581
00:29:39,737 --> 00:29:43,532
And that's what made her son, you know,
jump off a bridge to commit suicide,

582
00:29:43,574 --> 00:29:46,034
which is a very tragic story.

583
00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:48,995
Well, Linda Mautner is consistently incorrect.

584
00:29:49,037 --> 00:29:53,125
<i>I knew him personally. I just see a mother
trying to make sense</i>

585
00:29:53,166 --> 00:29:56,795
<i>- out of something senseless. It doesn't make sense.
- Yeah.</i>

586
00:29:56,836 --> 00:29:59,172
<i>But his cause
of death wasn't kratom.</i>

587
00:29:59,214 --> 00:30:01,508
She gets to go on the news,

588
00:30:01,550 --> 00:30:04,553
you know, sympathetic media, for
whatever reason, I don't know.

589
00:30:04,595 --> 00:30:06,680
I don't know whose behind it, or what.

590
00:30:06,722 --> 00:30:10,142
- But she gets to say whatever she wants to say.
- Mm-hmm.

591
00:30:10,183 --> 00:30:12,770
And you know, it's out there.

592
00:30:12,811 --> 00:30:15,397
So, kratom has a PR problem.

593
00:30:15,439 --> 00:30:21,779
Look, she told us... She was like,
"Well, you know, he died from kratom."

594
00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:25,574
"Uh, you sure?" Well, the first time
he checked into drug rehab,

595
00:30:25,616 --> 00:30:27,867
he had opioids in his system,

596
00:30:27,909 --> 00:30:30,412
the second time he checked into drug rehab,

597
00:30:30,454 --> 00:30:33,749
he had methamphetamines in his system.

598
00:30:33,791 --> 00:30:35,584
And he jumped off a bridge and killed himself.

599
00:30:35,626 --> 00:30:39,254
I mean, God bless her, but it's like, "Ma'am,

600
00:30:39,296 --> 00:30:41,923
your son didn't die from kratom."

601
00:30:41,965 --> 00:30:44,843
I went from smoking a
pack of cigarettes a day,

602
00:30:44,884 --> 00:30:47,971
drinking 20 Red Bulls a day,
doing 90 pain pills a day,

603
00:30:48,013 --> 00:30:50,265
<i>snorting seven grams of cocaine a day,</i>

604
00:30:50,307 --> 00:30:51,809
<i>banging a ton of porn stars a day...</i>

605
00:30:51,850 --> 00:30:54,894
I don't want to do anything, none of that.

606
00:30:54,936 --> 00:30:59,483
But, here's the thing, I am in so much pain
when I wake up.

607
00:30:59,525 --> 00:31:01,234
<i>But then I found kratom.</i>

608
00:31:01,276 --> 00:31:06,281
And my pain level, like I said,
went from a nine to a three.

609
00:31:06,323 --> 00:31:09,785
<i>There was an infant born with total addiction,</i>

610
00:31:09,827 --> 00:31:11,453
<i>so they were in withdrawal,</i>

611
00:31:11,495 --> 00:31:16,082
And the mother said the only thing that
she had ingested

612
00:31:16,124 --> 00:31:17,626
was the kratom.

613
00:31:17,668 --> 00:31:20,629
<i>But luckily, she had some of her kratom
with her.</i>

614
00:31:20,671 --> 00:31:22,798
<i>And so, they sent a sample to us,</i>

615
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,218
and we found that the actual kratom sample

616
00:31:26,259 --> 00:31:29,429
was adulterated with the hydrocodone.

617
00:31:29,471 --> 00:31:32,349
I mean, in Sweden, there was definitely
a bunch of deaths

618
00:31:32,391 --> 00:31:35,728
because of this laced product
with O-Desmethyltramadol,

619
00:31:35,769 --> 00:31:38,605
which is a very potent synthetic opioid.

620
00:31:38,647 --> 00:31:40,566
And it seems pretty clear

621
00:31:40,607 --> 00:31:43,109
that the deaths are from that component,
and not from the Kratom itself.

622
00:31:43,151 --> 00:31:45,779
He has not died because of kratom,
you see. As I said just now,

623
00:31:45,821 --> 00:31:49,282
people have been using kratom in
Southeast Asia for more than 100 years.

624
00:31:49,324 --> 00:31:51,201
There have not been any mortality cases.

625
00:31:51,243 --> 00:31:53,871
Nobody has died using Kratom in Malaysia.

626
00:31:53,912 --> 00:31:57,207
The only deaths listed

627
00:31:57,249 --> 00:32:02,421
as associated with kratom
are polydrug situations,

628
00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:05,883
where a person was on multiple other illicit

629
00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:08,635
and/or prescription drugs when they died.

630
00:32:08,677 --> 00:32:11,597
It's not new, it's not synthetic.

631
00:32:11,638 --> 00:32:14,140
And the media is attaching onto this as new.

632
00:32:14,182 --> 00:32:17,728
<i>It's new to the United
States in the last 20 years,</i>

633
00:32:17,770 --> 00:32:19,396
<i>but it's been used in Southeast Asia</i>

634
00:32:19,438 --> 00:32:22,107
<i>over hundreds and thousands
of years, culturally,</i>

635
00:32:22,148 --> 00:32:23,567
<i>for medicinal purposes.</i>

636
00:32:23,609 --> 00:32:25,819
<i>And yet, here we have the DEA</i>

637
00:32:25,861 --> 00:32:29,155
<i>saying that there's no medicinal use
from this plant,</i>

638
00:32:29,197 --> 00:32:34,453
when every single one of our members
is getting medicinal benefit...

639
00:32:34,494 --> 00:32:36,204
What is the problem with kratom?

640
00:32:36,246 --> 00:32:39,999
Why is it so controversial? Why are
people so up in arms about it?

641
00:32:40,041 --> 00:32:41,919
That could go in so many different directions.

642
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,880
And I think primarily what the problem is,

643
00:32:44,922 --> 00:32:47,006
it is competition

644
00:32:47,048 --> 00:32:52,220
<i>to some of the largest money-making industries
in the United States.</i>

645
00:32:52,262 --> 00:32:55,390
And I think that with the
media and the propaganda

646
00:32:55,432 --> 00:32:58,435
that they've been allowed
to spew to the public,

647
00:32:58,477 --> 00:33:00,103
which is based on exaggeration.

648
00:33:00,145 --> 00:33:04,733
People are believing that it is something
like illegal heroin,

649
00:33:04,775 --> 00:33:10,363
which is, to me, the biggest joke,
and yet, the saddest joke

650
00:33:10,405 --> 00:33:11,531
that I've ever heard.

651
00:33:11,573 --> 00:33:13,992
It's not the kind of thing that you crave

652
00:33:14,033 --> 00:33:16,995
and you feel like you have to go out
and seek.

653
00:33:17,036 --> 00:33:21,207
Because it's not the kind of thing
that you can escape your life from.

654
00:33:21,249 --> 00:33:23,877
That's the major difference to me.

655
00:33:23,919 --> 00:33:27,046
When I was on opioids, I
was using them to escape.

656
00:33:27,088 --> 00:33:29,508
It was a miserable existence.

657
00:33:29,549 --> 00:33:33,011
I was in my 30s. All my friends were getting
married and having children,

658
00:33:33,052 --> 00:33:36,181
I never was able to have children.
I was sick for ten years.

659
00:33:36,222 --> 00:33:41,770
We are people that just want a natural
alternative to prescription drugs.

660
00:33:41,812 --> 00:33:43,396
And this is what works for us.

661
00:33:43,438 --> 00:33:46,733
Also, interestingly, about 60% of our members

662
00:33:46,775 --> 00:33:49,569
have never even experienced
addiction in their lives.

663
00:33:49,611 --> 00:33:55,283
<i>They're just looking for an alternative
to pain medications.</i>

664
00:33:55,325 --> 00:33:57,703
<i>I figured if I'm going
to continue to use kratom,</i>

665
00:33:57,744 --> 00:34:00,413
<i>I should probably consult with the people
that matter the most.</i>

666
00:34:00,455 --> 00:34:05,043
<i>My brother Smelly recently started using
kratom as a pre-workout supplement.</i>

667
00:34:05,084 --> 00:34:08,213
<i>I like it, and I like the
feeling of it. It felt pretty good.</i>

668
00:34:08,254 --> 00:34:09,840
<i>What kind of feeling
do you get from it?</i>

669
00:34:09,882 --> 00:34:13,343
It just kind of almost gave me,
like, a sense of calmness,

670
00:34:13,385 --> 00:34:16,346
and maybe a little bit better focus even.

671
00:34:16,388 --> 00:34:18,097
Yeah, I wanted you guys to try it

672
00:34:18,139 --> 00:34:21,142
because I didn't want anybody to be scared
of what I was taking.

673
00:34:21,184 --> 00:34:23,061
- Like, it was one of the main reasons...
- Right.

674
00:34:23,102 --> 00:34:27,440
Uh, has it ever caused any
concern for you, or...

675
00:34:27,482 --> 00:34:30,235
It doesn't seem that powerful

676
00:34:30,276 --> 00:34:34,197
to have a negative impact on your life.

677
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,949
You know, I guess that's what
we're talking about here

678
00:34:35,991 --> 00:34:38,201
when we're talking about addiction,

679
00:34:38,243 --> 00:34:40,787
like who cares if you're addicted
to lifting weights

680
00:34:40,829 --> 00:34:42,748
if it doesn't hurt anybody else.

681
00:34:42,789 --> 00:34:46,043
<i>When you hurt your elbow,
you're kind of, you know, beat up.</i>

682
00:34:46,084 --> 00:34:47,586
<i>How do you cope with pain?</i>

683
00:34:47,627 --> 00:34:50,047
I usually just, I mean, I
usually just deal with it.

684
00:34:50,088 --> 00:34:53,884
You know, so, for now, I'm trying to actually,
like, listen to the doctors and stuff,

685
00:34:53,926 --> 00:34:56,219
and use my arm a little bit less.

686
00:34:56,261 --> 00:34:59,097
And try not to do any upper body exercises
at all.

687
00:34:59,138 --> 00:35:00,974
<i>You know, as long as I get back
to it at some point,</i>

688
00:35:01,016 --> 00:35:02,350
<i>it is what I love to do.</i>

689
00:35:02,392 --> 00:35:04,519
So, whether I have to have
a surgery or whatever,

690
00:35:04,561 --> 00:35:06,271
I'll deal with it at that point.

691
00:35:06,312 --> 00:35:09,066
You know, I've had one knee replacement,
two hip replacements.

692
00:35:09,148 --> 00:35:12,277
They've been fine, I have no problem.
I was riding my bike,

693
00:35:12,318 --> 00:35:15,614
between five and seven miles a day, you know,
and everything.

694
00:35:15,655 --> 00:35:18,909
And as I was going to hand a
guy a bag, I trip over a curb,

695
00:35:18,951 --> 00:35:21,661
and I get this groin pull somehow.

696
00:35:21,703 --> 00:35:23,789
<i>They gave me some hydrocodone
to take, you know.</i>

697
00:35:23,830 --> 00:35:25,624
<i>And that was helping.</i>

698
00:35:25,665 --> 00:35:27,876
<i>I'd take two in the morning, two
in the afternoon, two at night,</i>

699
00:35:27,918 --> 00:35:29,920
<i>but it was still really painful.</i>

700
00:35:29,962 --> 00:35:33,548
<i>Then you had given me some kratom, I think
it was... I can't remember exactly,</i>

701
00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:38,303
but from April on, I was fine. I
wasn't taking the hydrocodone anymore.

702
00:35:38,344 --> 00:35:39,930
I was taking that,

703
00:35:39,972 --> 00:35:41,807
and I was back to riding my bike.
I rode my bike all summer.

704
00:35:41,848 --> 00:35:44,851
And so, I've been taking two a day,

705
00:35:44,893 --> 00:35:46,144
it doesn't make me high.

706
00:35:46,185 --> 00:35:48,730
<i>I don't realize that I took it.</i>

707
00:35:48,772 --> 00:35:50,899
<i>But I'm always happy, I'm
always in a good mood.</i>

708
00:35:50,941 --> 00:35:54,736
<i>I've never really been a person
that was depressed or anything.</i>

709
00:35:54,778 --> 00:35:56,613
I mean, I hate to be cynical,

710
00:35:56,655 --> 00:35:59,616
but like everything in this country
is run by money.

711
00:35:59,658 --> 00:36:01,576
The government's not going
to do their research,

712
00:36:01,618 --> 00:36:04,245
and the pharmaceutical companies
aren't going to do the research,

713
00:36:04,287 --> 00:36:05,914
unless there's something in it for them.

714
00:36:05,956 --> 00:36:07,833
If there's something in it for the government,
they'll do it.

715
00:36:07,874 --> 00:36:10,209
If there's something in it for the
pharmaceutical companies, they'll do it.

716
00:36:10,251 --> 00:36:12,963
But if there's nothing in it for either
one of them, they won't put up the money.

717
00:36:13,005 --> 00:36:14,673
So, if you come up with something like that,

718
00:36:14,714 --> 00:36:16,466
you've got to come up with the studies.

719
00:36:16,508 --> 00:36:17,926
What do you have going on with you?

720
00:36:17,968 --> 00:36:19,928
Well, it's an entrapped nerve in my back

721
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:22,848
that's making the pain go all the way down
into my leg,

722
00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:26,018
make me lose movement in my leg.

723
00:36:26,059 --> 00:36:29,395
And it's, like, 24/7 pain.

724
00:36:29,437 --> 00:36:32,941
Unless I'm sleeping, I don't know I have...
I don't have any pain.

725
00:36:32,983 --> 00:36:34,943
<i>Other than that, I have pain all the time.</i>

726
00:36:34,985 --> 00:36:38,030
<i>And I don't think people shouldn't
try something for pain.</i>

727
00:36:38,071 --> 00:36:41,574
<i>I just don't think they should take
more than they should.</i>

728
00:36:41,616 --> 00:36:43,994
And I think all of it, the kratom and all,

729
00:36:44,036 --> 00:36:45,244
I think they're trying to stop it

730
00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:47,622
because they're probably trying to make it,

731
00:36:47,664 --> 00:36:49,124
so they can sell it and make money.

732
00:36:49,166 --> 00:36:50,917
Why are you afraid to try it?

733
00:36:52,335 --> 00:36:55,296
- For pain? Um...
- Mm-hmm.

734
00:36:55,338 --> 00:36:59,968
I don't know, I just, I just never tried
any kind of...

735
00:37:00,010 --> 00:37:01,511
anything, and so...

736
00:37:01,553 --> 00:37:03,722
But if the doctor gave
it to you, you'd try it?

737
00:37:04,597 --> 00:37:06,391
I probably would.

738
00:37:06,432 --> 00:37:08,852
<i>So, my mom was afraid to take Kratom.</i>

739
00:37:08,894 --> 00:37:10,770
<i>But my friend's mom didn't hesitate.</i>

740
00:37:10,812 --> 00:37:12,647
<i>This is Tony from the gym.</i>

741
00:37:12,689 --> 00:37:15,859
<i>His mother started taking kratom
to get off her hydrocodone,</i>

742
00:37:15,901 --> 00:37:18,570
<i>and a lot of the other pills
she's been prescribed.</i>

743
00:37:18,611 --> 00:37:20,739
- You're 89 years old, huh?
- Yeah.

744
00:37:20,780 --> 00:37:22,949
- You look fantastic.
- Well, thank you.

745
00:37:22,991 --> 00:37:25,326
Like a spring chicken, 89 years old, come on.

746
00:37:25,368 --> 00:37:26,995
<i>Some days I feel like it.</i>

747
00:37:27,037 --> 00:37:29,998
<i>- You started taking kratom recently, huh?
- Yes.</i>

748
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,500
- Because I'm on a lot of medicines.
- I'm all ears.

749
00:37:32,542 --> 00:37:35,628
I'm on about 15 different medicines.

750
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:37,964
<i>Levothyroxine,</i>

751
00:37:38,006 --> 00:37:40,926
<i>Benecol, Amlodipine,</i>

752
00:37:40,967 --> 00:37:43,970
<i>hydrochloride, hydrocodone,</i>

753
00:37:44,012 --> 00:37:46,973
<i>Prezolon, take calcium,</i>

754
00:37:47,015 --> 00:37:50,060
<i>the Prolia injection, twice a year.</i>

755
00:37:50,102 --> 00:37:53,813
I don't know a lot of people who
take as much medicine as I do.

756
00:37:53,855 --> 00:37:57,150
I have a sister, 91, and
she takes six pills day.

757
00:37:57,192 --> 00:38:00,445
- I'm just tired of pain.
- Yeah.

758
00:38:00,486 --> 00:38:04,449
And if anything else can help me,

759
00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:08,036
<i>without me taking all of these medicines,
you know, I'd try.</i>

760
00:38:08,078 --> 00:38:11,248
The DEA is trying to
make it a Schedule I drug.

761
00:38:11,289 --> 00:38:13,792
You know, on par with heroin,
and these other drugs.

762
00:38:13,833 --> 00:38:17,420
But, you've taken it, you don't
see it that way, do you?

763
00:38:17,462 --> 00:38:20,673
- Doesn't make you high?
- No, no.

764
00:38:20,715 --> 00:38:22,968
I do what I want to do.

765
00:38:23,009 --> 00:38:25,637
- Like always.
- What kind of stuff do you do every day?

766
00:38:25,678 --> 00:38:27,430
Everything I want to.

767
00:38:27,472 --> 00:38:31,601
If it's nice outside, I'm outside in the yard
or whatever,

768
00:38:31,643 --> 00:38:34,395
<i>because if I'm just sitting, it's worse.</i>

769
00:38:34,437 --> 00:38:39,276
<i>If I move around or whatever,
then, you know, I feel better.</i>

770
00:38:39,317 --> 00:38:42,237
<i>- If you're moving, you're not in pain?
- I'm in pain, yeah.</i>

771
00:38:42,279 --> 00:38:47,242
But I just learn to... I just don't
give into all of it.

772
00:38:47,284 --> 00:38:49,869
<i>When the government tries
to ban something people want,</i>

773
00:38:49,911 --> 00:38:53,123
<i>the people band together
and march on Washington.</i>

774
00:38:53,165 --> 00:38:56,417
<i>Kratom advocates were able to get
120,000 people</i>

775
00:38:56,459 --> 00:38:59,587
<i>to sign a petition to keep Kratom legal.</i>

776
00:38:59,629 --> 00:39:02,590
<i>This march was the last-ditch effort
to get the DEA</i>

777
00:39:02,632 --> 00:39:05,343
<i>to put the brakes on a Schedule I ban.</i>

778
00:39:05,384 --> 00:39:07,846
We are Kratom!

779
00:39:07,887 --> 00:39:10,556
We are Kratom!

780
00:39:10,598 --> 00:39:14,477
<i>When I went out to DC for the
Kratom march, I didn't know what to expect.</i>

781
00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:17,772
<i>But I met some very fascinating people
from all walks of life.</i>

782
00:39:17,814 --> 00:39:21,151
<i>And we had one thing in common, pain.</i>

783
00:39:21,193 --> 00:39:22,819
What do you guys hope comes out of this?

784
00:39:22,861 --> 00:39:25,571
That I get to keep Kratom in my life,
because it saved my life.

785
00:39:25,613 --> 00:39:27,240
I was pretty much suicidal

786
00:39:27,282 --> 00:39:29,326
<i>before my doctor... I went in there suicidal.</i>

787
00:39:29,367 --> 00:39:31,870
<i>I got pregnant actually, and I was sent
to the methadone clinic,</i>

788
00:39:31,911 --> 00:39:33,997
I had to have my daughter on methadone,

789
00:39:34,039 --> 00:39:38,543
which was a complete disaster pretty much.

790
00:39:38,584 --> 00:39:40,545
<i>It's a very emotional subject for me,</i>

791
00:39:40,586 --> 00:39:42,547
<i>I watched my daughter go through withdrawal
for six months afterwards.</i>

792
00:39:42,588 --> 00:39:48,136
Kratom saves lives!

793
00:39:48,178 --> 00:39:50,388
I was on suboxone for four years straight.

794
00:39:50,429 --> 00:39:53,432
And they had led me to believe that suboxone
was a cure to addiction.

795
00:39:53,474 --> 00:39:56,144
They actually literally told me that,
this will cure you.

796
00:39:56,186 --> 00:39:59,147
Three years ago, I was bedridden.
Every day was a struggle.

797
00:39:59,189 --> 00:40:02,692
And now with kratom, I can live my life.
I can come here.

798
00:40:02,734 --> 00:40:07,947
I can do things without
being in so total pain.

799
00:40:07,989 --> 00:40:10,742
- I actually ended up having a grand mal seizure...
- Oh, wow.

800
00:40:10,783 --> 00:40:12,077
...from taking tramadol.

801
00:40:12,118 --> 00:40:13,619
<i>And I came across Kratom.</i>

802
00:40:13,661 --> 00:40:16,122
<i>I went from sitting in a rocking chair,</i>

803
00:40:16,164 --> 00:40:18,208
weeping and saying goodbye to my daughter

804
00:40:18,250 --> 00:40:20,210
because my wife and my daughter
were going to leave the next day.

805
00:40:20,252 --> 00:40:23,546
To being able to actually finish up
my service,

806
00:40:23,588 --> 00:40:25,215
and I still have my family.

807
00:40:25,257 --> 00:40:27,300
<i>I was on fentanyl for six years,</i>

808
00:40:27,342 --> 00:40:30,387
and thanks to kratom, I no
longer have to do that.

809
00:40:30,428 --> 00:40:33,056
I can choose to help myself naturally.

810
00:40:33,098 --> 00:40:36,142
And I have for a year been off fentanyl.

811
00:40:36,184 --> 00:40:40,188
I had about 15 years of my life
go by in a blur of opiates.

812
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:42,690
And then, as I was kinda coming off it,

813
00:40:42,732 --> 00:40:45,693
dealing with... and just dragging,

814
00:40:45,735 --> 00:40:48,905
kratom just gave me the energy to pull my life
back together.

815
00:40:48,947 --> 00:40:51,991
And stop the cravings of opioids.

816
00:40:52,033 --> 00:40:56,037
OxyContin for breakthrough, oxycodone for
breakthrough, 15 milligrams of tramadol.

817
00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:58,456
- So, you were addicted to these...
- Oh, yeah, yeah.

818
00:40:58,497 --> 00:41:00,375
Yeah, I was going through withdrawal symptoms
when it stopped.

819
00:41:00,417 --> 00:41:02,752
And Kratom actually helped you get off of...

820
00:41:02,794 --> 00:41:06,089
Yeah, I reduced all of my pain medications.

821
00:41:06,131 --> 00:41:08,883
I was on tramadol for a long time,
for over seven years.

822
00:41:08,925 --> 00:41:11,428
You go through a lot of pain? You're
a professional football player, right?

823
00:41:11,469 --> 00:41:12,804
Yeah, it's given me my life back.

824
00:41:12,845 --> 00:41:16,349
What is this DEA ban going
to mean to kratom users?

825
00:41:17,434 --> 00:41:19,852
It turns them into criminals,

826
00:41:19,894 --> 00:41:24,232
and drug dealers, and drug addicts,
and drug...

827
00:41:24,274 --> 00:41:29,112
It will mean, for a lot of people,
depression and suicide.

828
00:41:29,154 --> 00:41:32,449
<i>So, I was deployed constantly.
I was home for a couple of months,</i>

829
00:41:32,490 --> 00:41:33,783
I'd get deployed again.

830
00:41:34,492 --> 00:41:36,244
I got out in 2007

831
00:41:36,286 --> 00:41:40,332
with PTSD so bad that every
time the phone rang,

832
00:41:40,373 --> 00:41:41,749
it set me off.

833
00:41:41,791 --> 00:41:43,960
I couldn't check the mail,
I wouldn't leave my house.

834
00:41:44,002 --> 00:41:46,921
- I lost myself because of medicines.
- Me too.

835
00:41:46,963 --> 00:41:50,091
I lost myself because of my service
to the country.

836
00:41:50,133 --> 00:41:52,260
I lost everything I was.

837
00:41:52,302 --> 00:41:56,681
But now I'm with Kratom, I've been given
a new lease on life.

838
00:41:56,722 --> 00:42:00,226
<i>Drew Turner spent nine years deployed
for the US Navy.</i>

839
00:42:00,268 --> 00:42:02,354
<i>He was honorably discharged
when his shooting hand</i>

840
00:42:02,395 --> 00:42:05,064
<i>was smashed by a prisoner at Guantanamo Bay.</i>

841
00:42:05,106 --> 00:42:09,068
<i>He suffers from severe
PTSD and Meigs Syndrome,</i>

842
00:42:09,110 --> 00:42:13,572
<i>which causes uncontrollable facial tics,
and there's no cure for it.</i>

843
00:42:13,614 --> 00:42:15,741
<i>Kratom is the only thing that works.</i>

844
00:42:15,783 --> 00:42:18,203
<i>Without it, his life is a living hell.</i>

845
00:42:18,244 --> 00:42:21,039
I wanted something where I
can get rid of the pain,

846
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:22,499
and feel a little bit better,

847
00:42:22,540 --> 00:42:24,625
<i>but at least have some
energy to get my life back.</i>

848
00:42:24,667 --> 00:42:26,461
<i>My wife would help me get
out of bed in the morning.</i>

849
00:42:27,253 --> 00:42:29,297
I would go to the couch.

850
00:42:29,339 --> 00:42:33,051
And if she went into her office that day,

851
00:42:33,092 --> 00:42:35,261
when she came back, I was in the same place
she left me.

852
00:42:35,303 --> 00:42:37,514
You know, I may have accidents.

853
00:42:37,555 --> 00:42:39,391
- I couldn't get to the bathroom.
- Wow, really?

854
00:42:39,432 --> 00:42:42,394
<i>I got to a point where
it was pretty much just hopeless.</i>

855
00:42:42,435 --> 00:42:44,937
When you hit that point of hopelessness,

856
00:42:44,979 --> 00:42:48,107
there is really two
directions I could have gone.

857
00:42:48,149 --> 00:42:50,943
- Keep trying, or end it all.
- Yeah.

858
00:42:50,985 --> 00:42:54,155
And I'll tell you one thing
I'm not going to be,

859
00:42:54,197 --> 00:42:56,241
is one of those 22 a day.

860
00:42:56,282 --> 00:43:00,328
<i>Twenty-two veterans a day commit
suicide because they are in pain.</i>

861
00:43:00,370 --> 00:43:02,539
<i>Whether it's emotional or physical,</i>

862
00:43:02,580 --> 00:43:05,708
<i>many experts say your body can't tell
the difference.</i>

863
00:43:05,750 --> 00:43:07,377
<i>This is Peter Guidry.</i>

864
00:43:07,419 --> 00:43:10,088
<i>He runs a bicycle rehab program
for veterans.</i>

865
00:43:10,129 --> 00:43:12,340
<i>They've been combating PTSD and addiction</i>

866
00:43:12,382 --> 00:43:15,801
<i>with bicycles, natural foods,
and herbs like kratom.</i>

867
00:43:15,843 --> 00:43:18,846
I feel forgotten, it's why we call it
"Forgotten, not gone."

868
00:43:18,888 --> 00:43:21,516
It was just the honest truth, you know.
They forgot about us.

869
00:43:21,558 --> 00:43:23,476
<i>Am I gonna be a broken vessel, or just</i>

870
00:43:23,518 --> 00:43:26,145
<i>join the ranks of every veteran
complaining about the obvious?</i>

871
00:43:26,187 --> 00:43:29,148
<i>They haven't been taking care of our veterans
since the '70s, right?</i>

872
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:30,858
<i>They didn't take care of
our Vietnam air veterans.</i>

873
00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:32,818
<i>They didn't take care of the Gulf War.</i>

874
00:43:32,860 --> 00:43:35,071
<i>So, why am I still confused enough that...</i>

875
00:43:35,113 --> 00:43:37,490
- I'm baffled and I want to kill myself.
- Yeah.

876
00:43:37,532 --> 00:43:40,201
I realized the VA's set up to do what they do,

877
00:43:40,243 --> 00:43:42,328
it's acute medicine, right? It's a hospital.

878
00:43:42,370 --> 00:43:45,290
When is the last time you went to the
hospital or had a breakthrough mentally?

879
00:43:45,331 --> 00:43:47,417
- Yeah.
- You go there to get drugs.

880
00:43:47,459 --> 00:43:49,085
<i>You know, a lot of the veterans who are coming</i>

881
00:43:49,127 --> 00:43:50,711
are over-medicated right now

882
00:43:50,753 --> 00:43:52,380
from the drugs they are taking at the VA.

883
00:43:52,422 --> 00:43:55,216
I think, at one point, we
kinda had 26 different

884
00:43:55,258 --> 00:43:57,343
- types of prescription medications.
- Wow.

885
00:43:57,385 --> 00:44:01,431
That I had, at one time, had
active prescriptions for.

886
00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:04,142
I'll spend weeks where I don't sleep.

887
00:44:04,183 --> 00:44:05,768
Pretty severe nightmares.

888
00:44:07,479 --> 00:44:10,565
You know, just everything that

889
00:44:10,607 --> 00:44:12,858
I can feel bad about, I feel bad about.

890
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:14,652
I got addicted to my pain pills

891
00:44:14,693 --> 00:44:17,530
that they gave me through the VA for fibroids.

892
00:44:17,572 --> 00:44:19,740
Fortunately for me, mine was kind of monthly,

893
00:44:19,782 --> 00:44:22,660
and you know, here and
there, but for my husband,

894
00:44:22,701 --> 00:44:24,954
<i>- he is in constant pain.
- Yeah.</i>

895
00:44:24,996 --> 00:44:26,331
<i>So, he just sucked it up,</i>

896
00:44:26,372 --> 00:44:28,916
<i>and I guess he just got
more and more depressed.</i>

897
00:44:28,958 --> 00:44:33,712
It got to the point one time where
I stole his last few pills.

898
00:44:33,754 --> 00:44:37,049
And, he went to look for his
pills and he didn't have any.

899
00:44:37,091 --> 00:44:40,303
I don't know what he was going through
at that time. And he was, like,

900
00:44:40,345 --> 00:44:41,804
moaning in agony.

901
00:44:41,846 --> 00:44:44,140
And I remember lying next to him, thinking,

902
00:44:44,182 --> 00:44:48,060
"Would he shut up, because he is messing up
my high?"

903
00:44:48,102 --> 00:44:52,023
But now, finding out about alternate forms
of healing, we are talking about kratom,

904
00:44:52,064 --> 00:44:54,484
that helped me just deal
with the pain a little bit.

905
00:44:54,526 --> 00:44:56,611
Just so I don't mentally get so far out

906
00:44:56,653 --> 00:44:58,695
that I'm doing something self-destructive.

907
00:44:58,737 --> 00:45:02,200
By the point where I started taking kratom,

908
00:45:02,241 --> 00:45:04,827
you know, I was mentally
and physically a mess.

909
00:45:04,869 --> 00:45:07,872
- Yeah.
- You know, you could roll me up, stick me in a garbage bag

910
00:45:07,913 --> 00:45:10,375
and put me out at the curb, and
that was about all I was good for.

911
00:45:10,416 --> 00:45:13,336
What are the side effects
that you get from kratom?

912
00:45:16,464 --> 00:45:18,424
I smile a little too much.

913
00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:22,595
- You are a liberal...
- I'm a liberal. I'm a liberal redneck,

914
00:45:22,637 --> 00:45:24,556
which people think is an
oxymoron, but it's not.

915
00:45:24,597 --> 00:45:27,475
I'm also not a unicorn. There are more of me.

916
00:45:27,517 --> 00:45:29,519
We do exist.

917
00:45:29,561 --> 00:45:32,438
<i>Trae Crowder is a stand-up comedian
known as "The Liberal Redneck."</i>

918
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,108
<i>His Youtube video about kratom
got over 200,000 views,</i>

919
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:39,445
<i>and got a lot of people to sign
the petition to keep it legal.</i>

920
00:45:39,487 --> 00:45:41,030
This is kratom.

921
00:45:41,072 --> 00:45:43,282
It's a tea made from the leaves
of a plant related to coffee

922
00:45:43,324 --> 00:45:46,536
that has been consumed in Southeast Asia
for hundreds of years.

923
00:45:46,578 --> 00:45:49,622
It's the only tea I fuck with you can't get
at a chicken buffet.

924
00:45:49,664 --> 00:45:53,125
I found kratom. I had never heard of it,
you know,

925
00:45:53,167 --> 00:45:56,212
and as I started reading more and
more about it, I was like, okay,

926
00:45:56,254 --> 00:45:59,090
it's related to the coffee plant,

927
00:45:59,131 --> 00:46:02,468
you know, botanically. So, it gives you energy
and whatever else.

928
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:05,555
<i>But it's not the, like, jittery
kind that caffeine is,</i>

929
00:46:05,597 --> 00:46:08,807
and I've become aware of

930
00:46:08,849 --> 00:46:11,561
the positive implications
the kratom can have for

931
00:46:11,603 --> 00:46:14,355
opiate addiction, which is

932
00:46:14,397 --> 00:46:16,232
an issue that is extremely personal to me.

933
00:46:16,274 --> 00:46:19,110
Yes, my mama cooks the best

934
00:46:19,151 --> 00:46:21,070
crystal meth you've ever had in your life.

935
00:46:21,112 --> 00:46:24,365
So good.

936
00:46:24,407 --> 00:46:26,701
So good... That's a joke. I'm kidding.

937
00:46:26,743 --> 00:46:29,870
Yeah. My mom will never cook meth.

938
00:46:29,912 --> 00:46:33,040
She sold pills, that's a totally
different thing.

939
00:46:33,082 --> 00:46:37,503
My mom had gotten wrapped
up in pills and opiates,

940
00:46:37,545 --> 00:46:40,632
and not just doing them, she sold them too.

941
00:46:40,673 --> 00:46:43,593
So, she got in trouble with the law
because of that, you know.

942
00:46:43,635 --> 00:46:46,178
She, like, you know, went to jail a couple
of times

943
00:46:46,220 --> 00:46:47,680
over the course of me growing up,

944
00:46:47,722 --> 00:46:49,682
and even when she wasn't in jail,

945
00:46:49,724 --> 00:46:52,351
she was, you know, strung out or whatever,

946
00:46:52,393 --> 00:46:54,061
so she just wasn't really around.

947
00:46:54,103 --> 00:46:56,105
What do you think the future holds for kratom?

948
00:46:56,147 --> 00:46:57,398
Do you think it's gonna get banned,

949
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,024
do you think it's okay for now?

950
00:46:59,066 --> 00:47:00,526
- You think we're...
- I think

951
00:47:00,568 --> 00:47:02,320
that they will end up banning it.

952
00:47:02,361 --> 00:47:03,946
I think it will become illegal.

953
00:47:03,988 --> 00:47:05,531
It's a mild stimulant.

954
00:47:05,573 --> 00:47:07,325
It hits some of the same parts
of your brain that opiates do.

955
00:47:07,366 --> 00:47:10,161
So, a lot of addicts have been using it
to keep off of the hard shit,

956
00:47:10,202 --> 00:47:12,829
which does not sit well with the lizards
at the Pharma companies.

957
00:47:12,871 --> 00:47:14,540
Big Pharmas are one of those

958
00:47:14,582 --> 00:47:18,002
powerful lobbying entities in the country,

959
00:47:18,043 --> 00:47:20,212
and I just knew...

960
00:47:20,254 --> 00:47:23,341
I was like, "Oh, what, this
little plant that grows",

961
00:47:23,382 --> 00:47:24,634
- it can, you know...
- Sure.

962
00:47:24,676 --> 00:47:27,052
Can chop them off at
the knees, potentially.

963
00:47:27,094 --> 00:47:29,054
There's no way they're gonna let that happen.

964
00:47:29,096 --> 00:47:30,973
<i>This is where we have found ourselves,</i>

965
00:47:31,015 --> 00:47:33,810
<i>that we must regulate our own regulators</i>

966
00:47:33,850 --> 00:47:36,061
<i>and bring the truth about kratom to light.</i>

967
00:47:36,103 --> 00:47:37,938
<i>Meet Travis Lowin.</i>

968
00:47:37,980 --> 00:47:41,818
<i>He is the executive director of
the Botanical Education Alliance.</i>

969
00:47:41,858 --> 00:47:44,028
<i>He's been involved in the
importing and exporting,</i>

970
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:46,531
<i>manufacturing and analytical testing</i>

971
00:47:46,572 --> 00:47:49,450
<i>of herbal supplements for over a decade.</i>

972
00:47:49,492 --> 00:47:51,160
Is there a detrimental effect

973
00:47:51,202 --> 00:47:53,245
to a human being, short and long-term effect,

974
00:47:53,287 --> 00:47:55,540
as a result of using kratom?
And the answer is no.

975
00:47:55,581 --> 00:47:57,750
Through donations that we receive,

976
00:47:57,792 --> 00:47:59,794
<i>they'll fly me out to other states,</i>

977
00:47:59,836 --> 00:48:02,129
<i>and I meet with state representatives,</i>

978
00:48:02,171 --> 00:48:04,382
or senators, or whoever else it might be

979
00:48:04,423 --> 00:48:07,719
that's influential as far as
passing these bills, and so forth,

980
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,095
to basically present the science, to present
the facts.

981
00:48:10,638 --> 00:48:12,223
Is it safe?

982
00:48:12,264 --> 00:48:15,184
You know, is this safe, like if someone was
to sit around,

983
00:48:15,226 --> 00:48:17,520
can someone really overdose on kratom?

984
00:48:17,562 --> 00:48:19,063
The answer is no.

985
00:48:19,104 --> 00:48:21,148
Like, do you... I mean, try overdosing
on coffee grains.

986
00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:24,193
- It's not gonna happen.
- What if a little kid found some pills and took 'em?

987
00:48:24,235 --> 00:48:26,362
If a kid found some pills and took 'em,

988
00:48:26,404 --> 00:48:28,406
he might be pretty excited.

989
00:48:29,782 --> 00:48:31,659
- And probably go play outside.
- It's not gonna...

990
00:48:31,701 --> 00:48:33,118
No, it's not gonna kill your kid.

991
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,747
In Alabama, what's the big interest
in banning it?

992
00:48:35,788 --> 00:48:37,914
Like, what's the big, huge...

993
00:48:37,956 --> 00:48:43,003
Alabama has the largest
prescription painkiller use

994
00:48:43,045 --> 00:48:44,422
to any other state in the United States.

995
00:48:44,463 --> 00:48:46,758
Actually, the statistics show that

996
00:48:46,799 --> 00:48:48,718
there are more prescriptions

997
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,597
<i>for painkillers than there
actually are people in Alabama.</i>

998
00:48:52,638 --> 00:48:55,266
The science is out, the studies
have been conducted.

999
00:48:55,307 --> 00:48:58,227
We've seen several hundred years
of safe traditional use.

1000
00:48:58,269 --> 00:49:00,229
And the answer is, as far as addiction

1001
00:49:00,271 --> 00:49:01,980
and habit-forming, anything can be that.

1002
00:49:02,022 --> 00:49:05,401
Nacho cheese, Coca-Cola. Whatever you want.

1003
00:49:05,443 --> 00:49:08,446
<i>Big Food spends billions to make
our food more addictive.</i>

1004
00:49:08,487 --> 00:49:10,030
<i>Sugar, fat, and salt</i>

1005
00:49:10,072 --> 00:49:13,033
<i>have been shown to have a
synergistic addictive effect.</i>

1006
00:49:13,075 --> 00:49:15,661
<i>Cheese even hits our opiate receptors.</i>

1007
00:49:15,703 --> 00:49:18,163
<i>Not nearly as strong as opioid drugs,</i>

1008
00:49:18,205 --> 00:49:20,165
<i>but it does the same thing.</i>

1009
00:49:20,207 --> 00:49:22,251
<i>It leaves us wanting more.</i>

1010
00:49:22,293 --> 00:49:25,296
<i>In the food world, it's all about the flavor,</i>

1011
00:49:25,337 --> 00:49:27,339
<i>the texture, and the crunch.</i>

1012
00:49:27,381 --> 00:49:30,967
<i>And there's a concept called
vanishing caloric density.</i>

1013
00:49:31,009 --> 00:49:32,720
<i>If a food melts quickly,</i>

1014
00:49:32,762 --> 00:49:34,764
<i>your brain thinks it has no calories,</i>

1015
00:49:34,806 --> 00:49:36,557
<i>and you can eat it forever.</i>

1016
00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:38,225
<i>Kinda like cheesy poofs.</i>

1017
00:49:38,267 --> 00:49:40,645
<i>And companies study the hell out of it.</i>

1018
00:49:40,686 --> 00:49:43,397
I actually have been
talking to a lot of people

1019
00:49:43,439 --> 00:49:46,275
that use kratom to get off of opiates.

1020
00:49:46,317 --> 00:49:48,486
We've seen it a lot, you know.

1021
00:49:48,527 --> 00:49:51,280
Do you think that's, like,
kinda playing with fire?

1022
00:49:51,322 --> 00:49:53,908
What do you think the problem is there?

1023
00:49:53,950 --> 00:49:56,786
Well, I think there's several things
that need to be clear.

1024
00:49:56,828 --> 00:49:59,996
First of all, to the degree that
it's completely unregulated,

1025
00:50:00,038 --> 00:50:02,625
so, when someone says, "I'm taking kratom,
and I feel just fine."

1026
00:50:02,667 --> 00:50:04,961
Really? How do you know what's in that packet?

1027
00:50:05,001 --> 00:50:06,921
Because it's completely unregulated,

1028
00:50:06,963 --> 00:50:09,590
you don't know if there's even any kratom
in there at all.

1029
00:50:09,632 --> 00:50:11,592
<i>Well, she could be right.</i>

1030
00:50:11,634 --> 00:50:14,762
<i>There may not be any kratom in those packages.</i>

1031
00:50:14,804 --> 00:50:18,724
<i>That sounds like the unregulated world
of dietary supplements.</i>

1032
00:50:18,766 --> 00:50:21,727
<i>Ten years ago, I showed the world
how easy it was</i>

1033
00:50:21,769 --> 00:50:24,313
<i>to make dietary supplements in my kitchen,</i>

1034
00:50:24,355 --> 00:50:26,273
<i>and nobody could stop me.</i>

1035
00:50:26,315 --> 00:50:30,402
<i>The problem is I can still
do that, until I get caught.</i>

1036
00:50:30,444 --> 00:50:33,489
<i>Although it's the law, and people
are ingesting these pills,</i>

1037
00:50:33,531 --> 00:50:37,159
<i>many companies just don't care,
and don't follow the rules.</i>

1038
00:50:37,201 --> 00:50:39,912
Look, I know some of these manufacturers,

1039
00:50:39,954 --> 00:50:44,333
and like, some of them just manufacture it
in their garage.

1040
00:50:44,375 --> 00:50:47,795
They manufacture in their living room.

1041
00:50:47,837 --> 00:50:50,130
They're packing capsules in their living room.

1042
00:50:50,172 --> 00:50:52,800
They put it in a jar and they take
it to smoke shops and sell it.

1043
00:50:52,842 --> 00:50:55,970
<i>I think there needs to be
some regulation on it.</i>

1044
00:50:56,012 --> 00:51:01,266
<i>There has to be, you know, FDA compliant
companies that package it in a warehouse.</i>

1045
00:51:01,308 --> 00:51:04,478
<i>Lot of the packaging, on the back
it says, "Not for human consumption."</i>

1046
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,772
<i>What's the deal with that,
and why's that going on?</i>

1047
00:51:06,814 --> 00:51:08,858
<i>I think it's because</i>

1048
00:51:08,900 --> 00:51:10,818
<i>that's how they get it into the country.</i>

1049
00:51:10,860 --> 00:51:12,778
<i>They don't wanna have it tested.</i>

1050
00:51:12,820 --> 00:51:16,072
These fly-by-night companies, as I call them,

1051
00:51:16,114 --> 00:51:18,200
that package it in their garage,

1052
00:51:18,242 --> 00:51:21,412
they can't afford to send it off
to get it tested.

1053
00:51:21,453 --> 00:51:23,789
Do you have more of an issue
with the industry or the DEA?

1054
00:51:23,831 --> 00:51:25,666
Way more with the industry.

1055
00:51:25,708 --> 00:51:29,045
Way more. The DEA/FDA, they're pretty
consistent about what they wanna do.

1056
00:51:29,085 --> 00:51:30,337
They're just doing their job.

1057
00:51:30,379 --> 00:51:31,505
Yeah, they're just doing their job,

1058
00:51:31,547 --> 00:51:32,965
and they're doing it for a reason.

1059
00:51:33,007 --> 00:51:34,926
They've got one of the toughest jobs
in the world.

1060
00:51:34,967 --> 00:51:37,177
They have to ensure our food supply is safe.

1061
00:51:37,219 --> 00:51:40,222
Or, you know, if there is a problem, they have
to step in to take care of it.

1062
00:51:40,264 --> 00:51:43,726
The fact that this industry is not
regulated, is that an issue for you?

1063
00:51:43,768 --> 00:51:46,979
It's a huge issue, I mean,
it's one of the most

1064
00:51:47,021 --> 00:51:49,648
aggravating, frustrating
things that, we as a group,

1065
00:51:49,690 --> 00:51:51,358
you know, the people that are
in this business,

1066
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,151
we get together, and we talk about
how do we make this better.

1067
00:51:53,193 --> 00:51:54,695
How do we keep the longevity going?

1068
00:51:54,737 --> 00:51:57,448
Everybody knows that every legislator
we've talked to,

1069
00:51:57,489 --> 00:51:59,199
interacted with, everybody says

1070
00:51:59,241 --> 00:52:02,078
the only way this stays is if we regulate it.

1071
00:52:02,118 --> 00:52:04,496
Nobody's making the move towards regulation.

1072
00:52:04,538 --> 00:52:06,540
For lack of better terminology,

1073
00:52:06,582 --> 00:52:09,376
this industry operates like a bunch of
head shops, little fucking drug dealers.

1074
00:52:09,418 --> 00:52:10,920
Nobody wants to work together.

1075
00:52:10,962 --> 00:52:13,129
Everybody wants to do their own thing quietly.

1076
00:52:13,171 --> 00:52:15,466
And we operate like a bunch of drug dealers.

1077
00:52:15,507 --> 00:52:17,760
So, the rules in the supplement world say

1078
00:52:17,802 --> 00:52:20,012
you're either an FDA-compliant label,

1079
00:52:20,054 --> 00:52:22,431
or you are not for human consumption.

1080
00:52:22,473 --> 00:52:24,391
You are an adulterated
product, you're not legal,

1081
00:52:24,433 --> 00:52:25,935
you shouldn't be able to sell it,

1082
00:52:25,977 --> 00:52:28,186
because the people don't have...

1083
00:52:28,228 --> 00:52:30,522
I mean, the people have the right to know
what they're gonna ingest.

1084
00:52:30,564 --> 00:52:32,817
And if you do not have FDA-compliant labeling,

1085
00:52:32,858 --> 00:52:34,735
you're not disclosing what's in the package,

1086
00:52:34,777 --> 00:52:36,361
whether it's safe, whether it's been
tested either.

1087
00:52:36,403 --> 00:52:37,905
It's all about money, right? Comes down to...

1088
00:52:37,947 --> 00:52:39,490
The majority of the vendors,

1089
00:52:39,531 --> 00:52:41,909
every week, they post this
little list on Reddit

1090
00:52:41,951 --> 00:52:43,953
where these guys are just the dirtbag

1091
00:52:43,995 --> 00:52:46,622
of dirtbags trying to sell the cheapest kratom
out there.

1092
00:52:46,664 --> 00:52:48,916
When we have conversations, "Why don't you
test your product?"

1093
00:52:48,958 --> 00:52:51,002
- "Well, I would have to sell it for more."
- Yeah.

1094
00:52:51,043 --> 00:52:54,212
"Or why don't you put this
through a pharmaceutical

1095
00:52:54,254 --> 00:52:56,090
co-packer and get this done right?"

1096
00:52:56,132 --> 00:52:57,967
"Well, I can't afford to do that."

1097
00:52:58,009 --> 00:52:59,468
Then you shouldn't be in the business.

1098
00:52:59,510 --> 00:53:01,720
- Sure.
- Then you got no right to be in this business.

1099
00:53:01,762 --> 00:53:02,972
<i>In the early '90s,</i>

1100
00:53:03,014 --> 00:53:05,057
<i>FDA Commissioner David Kessler</i>

1101
00:53:05,099 --> 00:53:08,769
<i>was concerned with the safety of
dietary supplements on the market.</i>

1102
00:53:08,811 --> 00:53:12,314
<i>So, he proposed a plan that would
treat supplements more like drugs.</i>

1103
00:53:12,356 --> 00:53:14,232
<i>To get approved by the FDA,</i>

1104
00:53:14,274 --> 00:53:17,695
<i>a drug needs to meet both
safety and efficacy standards.</i>

1105
00:53:17,736 --> 00:53:19,446
<i>But that would be really expensive</i>

1106
00:53:19,488 --> 00:53:21,073
<i>and cut into the profit.</i>

1107
00:53:21,115 --> 00:53:23,034
<i>Enter the DSHEA Act,</i>

1108
00:53:23,075 --> 00:53:25,410
<i>spearheaded by Senator Orrin Hatch.</i>

1109
00:53:25,452 --> 00:53:28,372
<i>He's from Utah, where they make about 80%</i>

1110
00:53:28,413 --> 00:53:30,457
<i>of the world's dietary supplements.</i>

1111
00:53:30,499 --> 00:53:32,292
<i>He thought it'd be crazy to require companies</i>

1112
00:53:32,334 --> 00:53:33,794
<i>to do safety studies</i>

1113
00:53:33,836 --> 00:53:36,505
<i>on those pills granny's
been poppin' for 50 years,</i>

1114
00:53:36,547 --> 00:53:39,508
<i>so he created a Dietary Supplement Health
Education Act</i>

1115
00:53:39,550 --> 00:53:41,177
<i>and rushed it through Congress...</i>

1116
00:53:43,303 --> 00:53:45,389
<i>On the last day of session.</i>

1117
00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:48,350
<i>Any supplement created
and marketed in the U.S.</i>

1118
00:53:48,392 --> 00:53:51,687
<i>as a dietary supplement before 1994,</i>

1119
00:53:51,729 --> 00:53:53,814
<i>was grandfathered into the system.</i>

1120
00:53:53,856 --> 00:53:57,109
<i>So, your vitamins from A to Zinc are safe.</i>

1121
00:53:57,151 --> 00:54:00,404
Hey, we can live our dreams.

1122
00:54:00,445 --> 00:54:03,866
<i>But how do we know what's on the label
is in the bottle?</i>

1123
00:54:03,908 --> 00:54:05,159
<i>We don't.</i>

1124
00:54:05,201 --> 00:54:07,494
<i>Enter GMP regulation.</i>

1125
00:54:07,536 --> 00:54:11,082
<i>GMP just means Good Manufacturing Practices.</i>

1126
00:54:11,123 --> 00:54:13,584
<i>It means products must prove their purity</i>

1127
00:54:13,625 --> 00:54:15,502
<i>and test for things like mold,</i>

1128
00:54:15,544 --> 00:54:18,547
<i>bacteria, salmonella, and E. coli.</i>

1129
00:54:18,589 --> 00:54:21,092
<i>According to a recent episode of</i> Frontline,

1130
00:54:21,133 --> 00:54:22,885
<i>because of the DSHEA Act,</i>

1131
00:54:22,927 --> 00:54:27,347
<i>the supplement industry boomed to
over 85,000 products on the market,</i>

1132
00:54:27,389 --> 00:54:30,142
<i>from over 4,000 manufacturers.</i>

1133
00:54:30,184 --> 00:54:33,437
<i>And the FDA only has a team of 25 people</i>

1134
00:54:33,478 --> 00:54:35,064
<i>to police it.</i>

1135
00:54:35,106 --> 00:54:38,234
<i>Only a small portion of supplements
ever get checked on.</i>

1136
00:54:38,316 --> 00:54:39,985
<i>So, should we even be concerned</i>

1137
00:54:40,027 --> 00:54:42,238
<i>that kratom isn't part of this broken system?</i>

1138
00:54:44,698 --> 00:54:47,283
<i>Or should we be looking for a new system?</i>

1139
00:54:47,325 --> 00:54:49,203
You know, it's significant. People are putting
these products

1140
00:54:49,245 --> 00:54:51,247
in their body. They're adulterated products,

1141
00:54:51,287 --> 00:54:52,539
and there is a health risk,

1142
00:54:52,581 --> 00:54:54,250
public health risk imparted into that,

1143
00:54:54,290 --> 00:54:55,751
and that's where our concern lies.

1144
00:54:55,793 --> 00:54:57,628
<i>This is Daniel Fabricant.</i>

1145
00:54:57,669 --> 00:54:59,922
<i>He's the CEO of the Supplement Lobby Group</i>

1146
00:54:59,964 --> 00:55:02,258
<i>and Natural Products Association.</i>

1147
00:55:02,298 --> 00:55:05,219
<i>Yet, he won't accept kratom
as a natural product.</i>

1148
00:55:05,261 --> 00:55:07,012
You wanna still have kratom on the market.

1149
00:55:07,054 --> 00:55:08,931
I like it, I use it, you know, for pain.

1150
00:55:08,973 --> 00:55:10,808
- So I like it.
- I think you go to...

1151
00:55:10,849 --> 00:55:13,018
For pain, now pain is gonna
be into the drug side.

1152
00:55:13,060 --> 00:55:14,186
- Sure.
- Okay.

1153
00:55:14,228 --> 00:55:15,771
So, if you wanna use it for chronic pain,

1154
00:55:15,813 --> 00:55:17,815
you go to those kratom manufacturers

1155
00:55:17,856 --> 00:55:19,858
and you go, "Hey, you guys have
to develop this as a drug."

1156
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:21,110
But I don't wanna be on a drug.

1157
00:55:21,152 --> 00:55:22,861
- I just wanna take the natural plant.
- Okay.

1158
00:55:22,903 --> 00:55:24,571
Chris, Chris,

1159
00:55:24,613 --> 00:55:26,573
the point is you're making a drug claim,
that makes it a drug,

1160
00:55:26,615 --> 00:55:29,367
by law, 'cause you're treating something.

1161
00:55:29,409 --> 00:55:31,745
<i>Now, that's the real issue here.</i>

1162
00:55:31,787 --> 00:55:33,872
<i>Its intended use is everything.</i>

1163
00:55:33,914 --> 00:55:36,583
And if the intended use is as a drug,
well, then you go that process.

1164
00:55:36,625 --> 00:55:38,252
If the intended use is as a food...

1165
00:55:38,294 --> 00:55:40,462
If you said, "Hey, Dan, I
just wanna use it because

1166
00:55:42,089 --> 00:55:44,133
<i>I'm in a better mood when I use it.</i>

1167
00:55:44,175 --> 00:55:46,010
<i>I feel, you know, slightly better."</i>

1168
00:55:46,051 --> 00:55:47,886
<i>Not that you have anxiety
or anything else like that,</i>

1169
00:55:47,928 --> 00:55:49,638
<i>but, you know, you're a healthy person,</i>

1170
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,557
<i>and you wanna help elevate your mood.</i>

1171
00:55:52,599 --> 00:55:54,392
<i>Well, then that would be</i>

1172
00:55:54,434 --> 00:55:58,522
the food or the supplement route.
Again, that requires that safety study.

1173
00:55:58,563 --> 00:56:00,482
There's no special exemption.

1174
00:56:00,524 --> 00:56:02,734
My daughter also thinks that when I
kiss her finger and she has a boo-boo,

1175
00:56:02,776 --> 00:56:04,444
that it helps it heal.

1176
00:56:04,486 --> 00:56:06,571
Well, my lips aren't getting
approved by the FDA anytime soon,

1177
00:56:06,613 --> 00:56:08,115
no matter how much she believes that.

1178
00:56:08,157 --> 00:56:11,076
It's an issue that gets brought
up and everybody goes,

1179
00:56:11,118 --> 00:56:12,494
"It's addiction, right?"

1180
00:56:12,536 --> 00:56:13,996
And then everybody goes,
"Well, what about caffeine,

1181
00:56:14,038 --> 00:56:16,123
what about alcohol, what about tobacco?"

1182
00:56:16,165 --> 00:56:17,373
I guess, what about all that stuff?

1183
00:56:17,415 --> 00:56:19,668
Alcohol is regulated one way.

1184
00:56:19,710 --> 00:56:21,879
We don't let people, you
know, under 21 have it.

1185
00:56:23,421 --> 00:56:26,925
Hello... Mindy.

1186
00:56:26,967 --> 00:56:29,303
But you also have data with regards to the use
of alcohol

1187
00:56:29,345 --> 00:56:30,470
and things like that.

1188
00:56:31,096 --> 00:56:32,139
Tobacco, similarly.

1189
00:56:32,181 --> 00:56:33,891
Tobacco is regulated now by FDA,

1190
00:56:33,932 --> 00:56:36,518
Center for Tobacco Products.

1191
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,104
There are also products that have been
approved by the FDA on the drug side

1192
00:56:39,146 --> 00:56:41,648
to help you overcome nicotine addiction.

1193
00:56:41,690 --> 00:56:44,400
So, you know, again, I think with both
of those areas,

1194
00:56:44,442 --> 00:56:47,196
and I'm certainly not advocating the use of

1195
00:56:47,238 --> 00:56:49,198
tobacco or alcohol,

1196
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:51,075
- but there's...
- Sure.

1197
00:56:51,116 --> 00:56:52,492
...there's a scientific base.

1198
00:56:52,534 --> 00:56:54,619
- Yeah.
- And I think that's where

1199
00:56:54,661 --> 00:56:56,496
you know, where some of the issues are.

1200
00:56:56,538 --> 00:56:59,415
I just wanna see people, no matter whatever
they're selling,

1201
00:57:00,251 --> 00:57:02,002
whether it's the industry,

1202
00:57:02,044 --> 00:57:03,837
whether it's FDA,

1203
00:57:03,879 --> 00:57:07,674
whether it's, you know, someone in
the industry with a new product.

1204
00:57:07,716 --> 00:57:10,177
There's a system there. Use a system,
use it appropriately.

1205
00:57:10,219 --> 00:57:11,720
We're gonna promote the
use of natural products.

1206
00:57:11,762 --> 00:57:13,180
It doesn't help anybody when...

1207
00:57:13,222 --> 00:57:15,349
- Sure.
- ...people are, you know, selling things that,

1208
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,394
with claims that make them drugs.

1209
00:57:18,435 --> 00:57:21,313
<i>I think what we have here
is a vocabulary problem,</i>

1210
00:57:21,355 --> 00:57:22,981
<i>not a drug problem.</i>

1211
00:57:23,023 --> 00:57:26,193
<i>The powers that be classify kratom
by its intended use.</i>

1212
00:57:26,235 --> 00:57:27,736
<i>So, according to the law,</i>

1213
00:57:27,778 --> 00:57:30,114
<i>if your intention is to elevate your mood,</i>

1214
00:57:30,155 --> 00:57:32,449
<i>or stay awake, then it's totally fine,</i>

1215
00:57:32,490 --> 00:57:35,535
<i>and you can sell it as a supplement
at a gas station</i>

1216
00:57:35,577 --> 00:57:37,662
<i>with all sorts of claims on the bottle.</i>

1217
00:57:37,704 --> 00:57:40,374
<i>But if your intention is to get out of pain,</i>

1218
00:57:40,416 --> 00:57:41,959
<i>or to get off of opiates,</i>

1219
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:43,961
<i>all of a sudden, it's a drug,</i>

1220
00:57:44,002 --> 00:57:46,255
<i>and it will require years of studies,</i>

1221
00:57:46,297 --> 00:57:49,383
<i>and costs, on average, a billion dollars
to get to market.</i>

1222
00:57:49,425 --> 00:57:51,009
<i>Same exact substance.</i>

1223
00:57:51,051 --> 00:57:54,179
The way that this works is you actually
train the animals

1224
00:57:54,221 --> 00:57:55,472
to press a lever

1225
00:57:55,513 --> 00:57:57,057
so many times, and after so many times,

1226
00:57:57,099 --> 00:57:59,017
<i>they get an injection of morphine.</i>

1227
00:57:59,059 --> 00:58:01,686
<i>They can get food or they can get drug,</i>

1228
00:58:01,728 --> 00:58:03,855
<i>and they can choose between one or the other,</i>

1229
00:58:03,897 --> 00:58:05,232
<i>and they usually end up</i>

1230
00:58:05,274 --> 00:58:06,817
<i>choosing the drug.</i>

1231
00:58:06,858 --> 00:58:09,069
<i>It makes addiction
sound so simple, it's like,</i>

1232
00:58:09,111 --> 00:58:10,946
<i>you hit this, you get a reward,</i>

1233
00:58:10,988 --> 00:58:12,489
<i>I like it, I'm gonna do it again.</i>

1234
00:58:12,530 --> 00:58:14,532
<i>Unfortunately,
addiction as a disease,</i>

1235
00:58:14,574 --> 00:58:17,328
is that simple. A lot of people say
it's a choice.

1236
00:58:17,369 --> 00:58:21,248
I, honestly, don't believe it's ever a choice,

1237
00:58:21,290 --> 00:58:22,833
except for maybe the first time.

1238
00:58:22,874 --> 00:58:25,794
The people that are anti-kratom,
I should say,

1239
00:58:25,836 --> 00:58:29,006
are saying like, "Look, if it's so good,
why isn't pharma coming after it?"

1240
00:58:29,047 --> 00:58:31,425
I know exactly why pharma
isn't going after it.

1241
00:58:31,467 --> 00:58:32,884
Because you can't get a patent around it.

1242
00:58:32,926 --> 00:58:36,013
<i>We filed a patent for use as a treatment</i>

1243
00:58:36,054 --> 00:58:38,723
<i>for any kind of drug withdrawal.</i>

1244
00:58:38,765 --> 00:58:41,393
- And it didn't go through?
- It didn't go through.

1245
00:58:41,435 --> 00:58:44,480
Actually, we met with more rejections from
the U.S. Patent Office

1246
00:58:44,521 --> 00:58:47,232
<i>than our patent attorneys
said they've ever seen.</i>

1247
00:58:47,274 --> 00:58:49,026
People have this perception that

1248
00:58:49,067 --> 00:58:51,362
regular kratom use could actually cause

1249
00:58:51,403 --> 00:58:54,365
serious dependence, and then you abstain
from kratom use,

1250
00:58:54,406 --> 00:58:57,075
it leads to severe withdrawal symptoms.

1251
00:58:57,117 --> 00:58:58,660
I don't think so.

1252
00:58:58,702 --> 00:59:02,206
The only thing is, you need
to know how to use kratom

1253
00:59:02,247 --> 00:59:04,082
correctly, because in America,

1254
00:59:04,124 --> 00:59:06,835
I believe that people don't
really know how to use kratom.

1255
00:59:06,877 --> 00:59:09,505
So, you think that we're just
scraping the surface here?

1256
00:59:09,546 --> 00:59:11,840
<i>You think that we can actually go further,</i>

1257
00:59:11,882 --> 00:59:14,885
<i>- if we start learning how to properly use this.
- Exactly. Exactly.</i>

1258
00:59:14,926 --> 00:59:17,221
<i>If they can come, we can all come together</i>

1259
00:59:17,262 --> 00:59:18,680
- and do good science.
- Exactly.

1260
00:59:18,722 --> 00:59:20,807
And you know, provide some kind of funding

1261
00:59:20,849 --> 00:59:22,226
to Christopher McCurdy,

1262
00:59:22,267 --> 00:59:24,353
then we can actually do good science,

1263
00:59:24,395 --> 00:59:27,189
because I see it now, kratom
has negative picture.

1264
00:59:27,231 --> 00:59:29,774
The government is not gonna
provide any funding.

1265
00:59:29,816 --> 00:59:33,237
It is difficult because, as I said,
we are at the initial stage.

1266
00:59:33,278 --> 00:59:35,864
And you get to see kratom-using population
is growing,

1267
00:59:35,906 --> 00:59:37,824
and growing, and growing, and growing.

1268
00:59:37,866 --> 00:59:41,495
You have a PhD in addiction. Have you
seen people die from crystal meth?

1269
00:59:41,537 --> 00:59:43,747
- Of course, I've seen...
- Have you seen people die from heroin?

1270
00:59:43,788 --> 00:59:44,915
Of course, I've seen.

1271
00:59:44,956 --> 00:59:47,042
And zero from kratom?

1272
00:59:47,084 --> 00:59:49,711
From kratom, I've not seen any
serious medical problems.

1273
00:59:49,753 --> 00:59:50,962
Dr. Holcomb,

1274
00:59:51,004 --> 00:59:53,257
next, you're a board-certified
general surgeon,

1275
00:59:53,298 --> 00:59:57,886
practicing physician, who,
at first, was against

1276
00:59:57,928 --> 01:00:00,264
kratom, but your personal experience

1277
01:00:00,305 --> 01:00:02,933
with your son changed your opinion.

1278
01:00:02,974 --> 01:00:06,228
<i>Dr. Murray Holcomb is a
general surgeon in Austin, Texas.</i>

1279
01:00:06,270 --> 01:00:09,147
<i>His son, Grant, battled addiction
and depression.</i>

1280
01:00:09,189 --> 01:00:11,942
<i>And when he got out of rehab, he found kratom.</i>

1281
01:00:11,983 --> 01:00:14,778
<i>Which seems to be the one thing
that really helps him.</i>

1282
01:00:14,819 --> 01:00:17,114
He's up in the tree, so...

1283
01:00:17,155 --> 01:00:18,949
- Oh, he's up there.
- Yeah.

1284
01:00:18,990 --> 01:00:21,952
<i>I got a DWI, and I totaled my car</i>

1285
01:00:21,993 --> 01:00:24,162
just, like, five days before
I went into treatment.

1286
01:00:24,204 --> 01:00:27,624
So, it wasn't your typical intervention

1287
01:00:27,665 --> 01:00:29,709
where I walked in, like,

1288
01:00:29,751 --> 01:00:31,962
they had planned it out or anything like that.

1289
01:00:32,003 --> 01:00:34,923
Addiction later became
a significant part of that.

1290
01:00:34,965 --> 01:00:36,133
Although,

1291
01:00:37,384 --> 01:00:41,221
probably more often than not,

1292
01:00:41,263 --> 01:00:43,557
addiction with issues that...

1293
01:00:43,599 --> 01:00:45,767
Or medications that were
prescribed by other physicians.

1294
01:00:45,809 --> 01:00:48,520
I had a really bad leg injury in high school,

1295
01:00:48,562 --> 01:00:50,063
<i>wrecked a four-wheeler,</i>

1296
01:00:50,105 --> 01:00:53,066
<i>and snapped my leg, you know, like, thirds,</i>

1297
01:00:53,108 --> 01:00:56,736
so, that's the first time I was introduced to
you know, painkillers.

1298
01:00:56,778 --> 01:00:58,655
What were your days like back then?

1299
01:00:58,696 --> 01:01:00,657
<i>Take two swigs off the bottle</i>

1300
01:01:00,698 --> 01:01:03,076
<i>that was next to my bed on the nightstand.</i>

1301
01:01:03,118 --> 01:01:04,911
<i>Pop a couple of my Xanax.</i>

1302
01:01:04,953 --> 01:01:07,122
Do that just so I would be able to go to work,

1303
01:01:07,164 --> 01:01:09,291
so I could get myself out of bed,

1304
01:01:09,333 --> 01:01:10,584
and go to work,

1305
01:01:10,626 --> 01:01:13,504
and work a full day,

1306
01:01:13,545 --> 01:01:16,507
<i>but, throughout that day,
popping pills as needed.</i>

1307
01:01:16,548 --> 01:01:19,884
Kinda get myself through
that, and then buy a bottle

1308
01:01:19,926 --> 01:01:21,845
and work on finishing it.

1309
01:01:21,886 --> 01:01:25,849
One in five adults will experience
a mental health issue

1310
01:01:25,890 --> 01:01:27,309
in any given year.

1311
01:01:27,351 --> 01:01:30,521
One in 25, approximately, are
severe mental health issues.

1312
01:01:30,562 --> 01:01:32,606
It interferes with their ability
to function,

1313
01:01:32,648 --> 01:01:35,108
or is disruptive to their life.

1314
01:01:35,150 --> 01:01:39,904
Thirteen percent of the population
is on antidepressants.

1315
01:01:39,946 --> 01:01:43,992
I'd happened to visit a shop that had
kratom behind the counter.

1316
01:01:44,034 --> 01:01:46,203
<i>I decided, in a good way,</i>

1317
01:01:46,244 --> 01:01:48,997
<i>to try that before I got to the hotel room</i>

1318
01:01:49,039 --> 01:01:51,041
and got a bottle or anything like that.

1319
01:01:51,082 --> 01:01:54,503
And from that first day that I took it again,

1320
01:01:54,545 --> 01:01:58,089
and it had been probably two or three years
since I had taken it,

1321
01:01:58,131 --> 01:02:01,677
that desire to get my hands
on drugs or alcohol,

1322
01:02:01,718 --> 01:02:03,136
like, completely left.

1323
01:02:03,178 --> 01:02:05,930
Kratom seemed to step in and give him just...

1324
01:02:05,972 --> 01:02:09,017
<i>For whatever imbalance he had,</i>

1325
01:02:09,059 --> 01:02:10,852
<i>that's the key that fits him.</i>

1326
01:02:10,894 --> 01:02:13,813
So, from that point on, and he'll be
the first to tell you

1327
01:02:13,855 --> 01:02:15,773
that it's not just kratom,

1328
01:02:15,815 --> 01:02:17,859
it's, you know, working on spirituality,

1329
01:02:17,901 --> 01:02:21,238
<i>his relationship with God, going
to meetings, giving back,</i>

1330
01:02:21,279 --> 01:02:23,781
exercise. Takes kratom twice a day.

1331
01:02:23,823 --> 01:02:26,243
He's not high, loopy,

1332
01:02:26,284 --> 01:02:28,203
forgetful, inappropriate,

1333
01:02:29,246 --> 01:02:30,706
- anything.
- His eyes are clear,

1334
01:02:30,747 --> 01:02:33,709
- and we've seen him. We've seen him...
- Yeah.

1335
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:35,001
Anything but normal.

1336
01:02:35,043 --> 01:02:37,003
Do you feel like it's addictive?

1337
01:02:37,045 --> 01:02:39,172
I think it's got addictive
properties, for sure.

1338
01:02:39,214 --> 01:02:41,049
I mean, obviously,

1339
01:02:41,091 --> 01:02:42,884
but, and not necessarily

1340
01:02:42,926 --> 01:02:45,011
physically, but, you know, psychologically,

1341
01:02:45,053 --> 01:02:47,222
if there's something that's gonna make you
feel better,

1342
01:02:48,682 --> 01:02:51,560
you know, I feel like that's addictive.

1343
01:02:51,602 --> 01:02:54,438
<i>Now that I'm sober, one
of my favorite things to do</i>

1344
01:02:54,479 --> 01:02:56,147
<i>is to help other people</i>

1345
01:02:56,189 --> 01:02:58,275
<i>by sharing my story at meetings.</i>

1346
01:02:58,316 --> 01:03:01,319
<i>I was excited to speak at Cliffside, Malibu,</i>

1347
01:03:01,361 --> 01:03:03,238
<i>the place where I got sober.</i>

1348
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,115
<i>But then I got a phone call.</i>

1349
01:03:05,156 --> 01:03:06,824
So Mindy,

1350
01:03:06,866 --> 01:03:08,535
- Who is our mutual friend,
- Yes.

1351
01:03:08,577 --> 01:03:10,120
Just blew you out.

1352
01:03:10,161 --> 01:03:11,705
Said, "We love you,

1353
01:03:11,747 --> 01:03:14,082
we don't have a judgment on the kratom,

1354
01:03:14,124 --> 01:03:15,584
but you're not speaking at our meeting."

1355
01:03:15,626 --> 01:03:17,252
- That's what happened.
- Yes, sure.

1356
01:03:17,294 --> 01:03:18,962
How'd that make you feel?

1357
01:03:19,003 --> 01:03:22,132
I kinda felt hurt... It hurt my feelings,
to tell you the truth.

1358
01:03:22,173 --> 01:03:24,801
Now, I love Mindy, it had
nothing to do with her,

1359
01:03:24,842 --> 01:03:28,305
it's just that I felt like
maybe I wasn't sober anymore.

1360
01:03:28,346 --> 01:03:29,931
And I don't know, like,

1361
01:03:29,973 --> 01:03:32,476
you know, I mean, am I?

1362
01:03:32,517 --> 01:03:34,352
Where does that leave you?

1363
01:03:34,394 --> 01:03:36,647
Taking something that's not ever been

1364
01:03:36,688 --> 01:03:39,983
put in a category, or put in, you know,

1365
01:03:40,024 --> 01:03:42,778
in a box. I just take it because I'm in pain.

1366
01:03:42,819 --> 01:03:45,071
Well, I don't know enough about it.

1367
01:03:46,364 --> 01:03:48,784
And I've done some serious study

1368
01:03:48,825 --> 01:03:50,868
over the last few days.

1369
01:03:50,910 --> 01:03:54,539
You know, I've got Connie who is an addiction
research fellow.

1370
01:03:54,581 --> 01:03:57,083
And she's given me so much to read

1371
01:03:57,125 --> 01:03:59,586
<i>that when I couldn't read anymore,</i>

1372
01:03:59,628 --> 01:04:03,006
I had somebody sit in my
office and read to me.

1373
01:04:03,881 --> 01:04:05,801
There's no uniformity

1374
01:04:05,842 --> 01:04:08,219
<i>in making the drug.</i>

1375
01:04:08,261 --> 01:04:12,056
<i>There's no uniformity in
the dosage of the drug.</i>

1376
01:04:13,016 --> 01:04:15,352
And ironically enough,

1377
01:04:15,393 --> 01:04:18,480
I'm actually treating a
couple of people right now

1378
01:04:18,522 --> 01:04:20,357
at Cliffside

1379
01:04:20,398 --> 01:04:23,360
who have been abusing kratom.

1380
01:04:23,819 --> 01:04:25,028
Okay.

1381
01:04:25,654 --> 01:04:27,155
Having said that...

1382
01:04:29,700 --> 01:04:32,118
it would be criminal,

1383
01:04:33,036 --> 01:04:34,538
bordering on the criminal,

1384
01:04:35,913 --> 01:04:38,750
to not do the research

1385
01:04:38,792 --> 01:04:43,880
to figure out what the appropriate
medicinal purposes are.

1386
01:04:43,921 --> 01:04:46,508
People abuse everything.

1387
01:04:46,550 --> 01:04:49,135
Well, Chris, you're just defending your right

1388
01:04:49,177 --> 01:04:50,804
to use this substance.

1389
01:04:50,846 --> 01:04:52,930
- Sure.
- Just like any other addict would.

1390
01:04:52,972 --> 01:04:54,932
- So, how do we know?
- Mm-hmm.

1391
01:04:54,974 --> 01:04:56,852
And the truth is, we don't know.

1392
01:04:56,893 --> 01:05:00,271
Now, I know you, and I believe you.

1393
01:05:00,313 --> 01:05:03,441
Okay? You look fine to me.

1394
01:05:03,483 --> 01:05:05,736
I've never seen you look this good.

1395
01:05:05,777 --> 01:05:07,320
Never seen you this calm.

1396
01:05:07,362 --> 01:05:09,197
We get about 100 calls a day

1397
01:05:09,239 --> 01:05:12,116
from people trying to get
off drugs and alcohol.

1398
01:05:12,158 --> 01:05:14,411
Ninety calls

1399
01:05:14,452 --> 01:05:16,830
are because of prescription opiates.

1400
01:05:16,872 --> 01:05:18,415
Ninety of them.

1401
01:05:18,456 --> 01:05:21,918
Why do you think that nobody's
stopping the opiate epidemic?

1402
01:05:21,959 --> 01:05:23,670
Let's talk about why it's happening.

1403
01:05:25,255 --> 01:05:28,132
Why it's happening is

1404
01:05:28,174 --> 01:05:31,636
there is no advertising necessary

1405
01:05:33,471 --> 01:05:34,639
<i>for opiates.</i>

1406
01:05:34,681 --> 01:05:36,266
- <i>You never see it.
- Never.</i>

1407
01:05:36,307 --> 01:05:39,394
<i>If you stop taking opiates, you get sick.</i>

1408
01:05:40,144 --> 01:05:41,479
<i>You don't have a choice.</i>

1409
01:05:41,521 --> 01:05:43,940
People think slavery ended in 1865,

1410
01:05:43,981 --> 01:05:47,985
it didn't. It's going on right now in 2017.

1411
01:05:48,027 --> 01:05:50,697
Okay? Slavery exists today.

1412
01:05:50,739 --> 01:05:52,657
<i>Okay? If you're on opiates,</i>

1413
01:05:52,699 --> 01:05:54,534
<i>you are a slave.</i>

1414
01:05:54,576 --> 01:05:58,204
<i>You're not controlling that drug, that drug
is controlling you.</i>

1415
01:05:58,246 --> 01:06:01,291
Everything you got. Every goddamn pill.

1416
01:06:01,332 --> 01:06:04,586
<i>So, how long does a
shipment this size last?</i>

1417
01:06:04,628 --> 01:06:06,003
How long does it take to sell this?

1418
01:06:06,045 --> 01:06:07,798
- About a month. Yeah.
- Really?

1419
01:06:07,839 --> 01:06:10,049
- 2,500 pounds of kratom in a month?
- Kilos.

1420
01:06:10,091 --> 01:06:12,093
Kilos of kratom in a month.

1421
01:06:13,678 --> 01:06:16,848
So, from here what happens
is, once we open these,

1422
01:06:16,890 --> 01:06:19,517
then the next thing we're gonna do is
we're gonna test it.

1423
01:06:19,559 --> 01:06:23,313
Whenever we send product out for testing,
like all of this product sitting here,

1424
01:06:23,354 --> 01:06:26,733
none of this can be used yet, because
we don't have test results back yet.

1425
01:06:26,775 --> 01:06:28,067
So every batch, you have to test it?

1426
01:06:28,109 --> 01:06:29,945
- Have to, no, but we do.
- Yeah.

1427
01:06:29,986 --> 01:06:31,613
<i>We actually test it three times.</i>

1428
01:06:31,655 --> 01:06:33,865
<i>The FDA put out this import alert that says,</i>

1429
01:06:33,907 --> 01:06:37,034
we're not allowed to import this because
they don't feel it's safe.

1430
01:06:37,076 --> 01:06:39,496
- But they never tested it, so I mean...
- Sure.

1431
01:06:39,537 --> 01:06:42,206
They're basing their opinion without tests.

1432
01:06:42,248 --> 01:06:43,750
So many people talk shit about the FDA,

1433
01:06:43,792 --> 01:06:46,127
- but we really need to support the FDA...
- Yes, we do.

1434
01:06:46,169 --> 01:06:48,379
...because once everybody gets onboard,

1435
01:06:48,421 --> 01:06:52,008
and you know, when the FDA says,
"Okay, this is a full supplement,"

1436
01:06:52,049 --> 01:06:54,594
now, we go back to pharmaceutical co-packers.

1437
01:06:54,636 --> 01:06:57,263
- Yes.
- So, now everything's done in a clinical environment.

1438
01:06:57,305 --> 01:07:00,099
We don't have to build each
individual little segment.

1439
01:07:00,141 --> 01:07:03,353
I'm surprised there hasn't been a politician,
and maybe we need to find one,

1440
01:07:03,394 --> 01:07:05,689
that gets behind this.

1441
01:07:05,730 --> 01:07:08,775
142 Americans are dying every day

1442
01:07:08,817 --> 01:07:10,735
of drug overdose, every day.

1443
01:07:10,777 --> 01:07:15,949
Which means we have a 9/11-scale loss
every three weeks in America.

1444
01:07:15,991 --> 01:07:17,701
<i>So, the first recommendation
we say to the president is,</i>

1445
01:07:17,742 --> 01:07:19,577
<i>you must declare national emergency.</i>

1446
01:07:19,619 --> 01:07:21,955
This problem, Jake, is not happening,

1447
01:07:21,997 --> 01:07:23,790
it's not starting on our street corners.

1448
01:07:23,832 --> 01:07:26,626
It's starting in our doctors'
offices and hospitals.

1449
01:07:26,668 --> 01:07:29,587
<i>Another politician trying to fix this
opioid crisis</i>

1450
01:07:29,629 --> 01:07:31,464
<i>is Congressman Mark Pocan.</i>

1451
01:07:31,506 --> 01:07:34,175
<i>But kratom's illegal in
his state of Wisconsin,</i>

1452
01:07:34,217 --> 01:07:36,135
<i>and he wants to see that changed.</i>

1453
01:07:36,177 --> 01:07:38,179
<i>So, he and his colleague, Matt Salmon,</i>

1454
01:07:38,221 --> 01:07:40,348
<i>wrote a bipartisan letter to Congress</i>

1455
01:07:40,390 --> 01:07:42,392
<i>begging them to keep kratom legal.</i>

1456
01:07:42,433 --> 01:07:44,978
<i>And they got 50 other congressmen to sign it,</i>

1457
01:07:45,020 --> 01:07:48,105
<i>which, by today's standards, is huge.</i>

1458
01:07:48,147 --> 01:07:50,901
This is one where I think the other people
are way ahead of

1459
01:07:50,942 --> 01:07:53,110
elected officials, on issues like this.

1460
01:07:53,152 --> 01:07:54,863
They don't see it as an issue.

1461
01:07:54,905 --> 01:07:56,907
<i>And when kratom came up again,</i>

1462
01:07:56,948 --> 01:07:59,826
<i>it's something that's been legal in virtually
every state in the country.</i>

1463
01:07:59,868 --> 01:08:02,037
We haven't had problems with it,

1464
01:08:02,078 --> 01:08:04,372
and then, all of a sudden,
to see it go to Schedule I

1465
01:08:04,414 --> 01:08:06,457
just raised that red flag,
that we thought we needed

1466
01:08:06,499 --> 01:08:09,210
to at least try to find a
way to put brakes on it.

1467
01:08:09,252 --> 01:08:11,755
And I think the important part is
we did it in a bipartisan way,

1468
01:08:11,796 --> 01:08:13,172
'cause, you know, so often

1469
01:08:13,214 --> 01:08:14,841
things are either done from
the Left or the Right.

1470
01:08:14,883 --> 01:08:16,426
Sometimes you just gotta do it

1471
01:08:16,467 --> 01:08:18,762
right from where it needs to be addressed,
from both sides.

1472
01:08:18,803 --> 01:08:22,432
And do you think that banning kratom could
actually hurt people?

1473
01:08:22,473 --> 01:08:25,018
Absolutely. I mean, one... I mean, there are
a number of people

1474
01:08:25,060 --> 01:08:26,978
that we talked to since doing that,

1475
01:08:27,020 --> 01:08:29,188
who've shared stories like yours.

1476
01:08:29,230 --> 01:08:31,858
That this is something that helps them,

1477
01:08:31,900 --> 01:08:33,693
especially people who've
been addicted to opioids.

1478
01:08:33,735 --> 01:08:37,864
To take that away would seem wrong,
especially if there's not

1479
01:08:37,906 --> 01:08:40,283
hard evidence as a reason why, and so far,

1480
01:08:40,324 --> 01:08:42,035
I haven't seen any hard evidence

1481
01:08:42,077 --> 01:08:44,412
that makes sense why you could justify

1482
01:08:44,454 --> 01:08:45,580
putting it on Schedule I.

1483
01:08:45,622 --> 01:08:47,498
In fact, if anything, there's research,

1484
01:08:47,540 --> 01:08:51,168
<i>including from universities that are looking
at the positive effects</i>

1485
01:08:51,210 --> 01:08:53,004
<i>of something like kratom.</i>

1486
01:08:53,046 --> 01:08:54,881
<i>Part of why we have the opioid problem
we have is that there is</i>

1487
01:08:54,923 --> 01:08:56,883
<i>almost an over-prescription of opioids,</i>

1488
01:08:56,925 --> 01:09:00,177
and then an overreaction, like we often do,
to stopping it.

1489
01:09:00,219 --> 01:09:03,681
And then if people couldn't get now
what they got addicted to,

1490
01:09:03,723 --> 01:09:05,475
they went to the street and got heroin.

1491
01:09:05,516 --> 01:09:08,812
And I recently was visiting a hospital
in my district.

1492
01:09:08,853 --> 01:09:11,272
<i>A doctor came late. He goes,
"I'm sorry, I had my daily</i>

1493
01:09:11,314 --> 01:09:13,733
<i>heroin overdose to deal with. I just got done.</i>

1494
01:09:13,775 --> 01:09:16,027
I was dealing with someone who came in."

1495
01:09:16,069 --> 01:09:20,156
You know, we should be
shooting for every possible

1496
01:09:20,197 --> 01:09:23,701
alternative way to make sure you can
get people off of opioids.

1497
01:09:23,743 --> 01:09:26,579
And unfortunately, I don't
think we're doing that,

1498
01:09:26,621 --> 01:09:28,247
if we look at things like kratom

1499
01:09:28,289 --> 01:09:31,793
as Schedule I rather than,
potentially, a solution.

1500
01:09:31,835 --> 01:09:34,587
<i>Another potential solution
for this opioid crisis</i>

1501
01:09:34,629 --> 01:09:36,297
<i>might be ibogaine.</i>

1502
01:09:36,339 --> 01:09:38,549
<i>Iboga is a natural plant from Africa,</i>

1503
01:09:38,591 --> 01:09:41,928
<i>that can turn 20-year heroin addictions around
in hours.</i>

1504
01:09:41,970 --> 01:09:45,723
<i>The problem is it's a Schedule I drug
in the U.S.</i>

1505
01:09:45,765 --> 01:09:49,144
<i>Dr. Deborah Mash is the world's
leading researcher on ibogaine,</i>

1506
01:09:49,185 --> 01:09:51,354
<i>and she's fighting to make it legal.</i>

1507
01:09:51,395 --> 01:09:53,564
<i>But I wonder what she thinks about kratom.</i>

1508
01:09:53,606 --> 01:09:55,692
Well, as you may know,
I've spent my life's work

1509
01:09:55,733 --> 01:09:57,944
working on a medication from Africa,

1510
01:09:57,986 --> 01:10:01,156
another natural product called ibogaine.

1511
01:10:01,197 --> 01:10:05,409
And ibogaine, which comes from
the region of Gabon in Cameroon,

1512
01:10:05,451 --> 01:10:09,039
<i>another one of Mother Nature's alkaloids</i>

1513
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:13,209
<i>we know can be used to
successfully detox people</i>

1514
01:10:13,250 --> 01:10:14,836
<i>off of opiates.</i>

1515
01:10:14,878 --> 01:10:17,338
So, my worry is that,

1516
01:10:17,380 --> 01:10:21,342
you know, we have people who
are not opiate abusers,

1517
01:10:21,384 --> 01:10:23,887
who have never partied with opiates,

1518
01:10:23,928 --> 01:10:27,182
who now get introduced to the euphoria

1519
01:10:27,223 --> 01:10:30,393
<i>that kratom or mitragynine has.</i>

1520
01:10:30,434 --> 01:10:35,272
I think there's pretty good evidence
that mitragynine is addictive.

1521
01:10:35,314 --> 01:10:39,819
I think there's no doubt about the science
behind that.

1522
01:10:39,861 --> 01:10:43,865
So, do we want another addicting opiate
on the planet?

1523
01:10:43,907 --> 01:10:46,076
Does it need to be studied more?
Sure, it does.

1524
01:10:46,117 --> 01:10:47,451
We need more research.

1525
01:10:47,493 --> 01:10:50,955
We need better molecules to treat addiction.

1526
01:10:50,997 --> 01:10:53,499
Is there a place for developing mitragynine

1527
01:10:53,541 --> 01:10:55,210
for the treatment of addiction?

1528
01:10:55,251 --> 01:10:56,669
I'm not sure.

1529
01:10:56,711 --> 01:11:00,173
There are many different
ways that you can substitute

1530
01:11:00,215 --> 01:11:05,011
an opiate to slide off of a heroin habit,

1531
01:11:05,053 --> 01:11:07,097
and to not suffer from the withdrawals.

1532
01:11:07,138 --> 01:11:08,723
And opiate withdrawals are terrible,

1533
01:11:08,765 --> 01:11:11,517
so, we understand why patients

1534
01:11:11,559 --> 01:11:14,938
<i>may wanna have access to kratom.</i>

1535
01:11:14,979 --> 01:11:16,856
Okay? But I want it regulated.

1536
01:11:16,898 --> 01:11:19,234
I don't want it being sold,

1537
01:11:19,275 --> 01:11:20,944
and maybe I'm getting old,

1538
01:11:20,985 --> 01:11:22,946
<i>I don't want it being sold in head shops.</i>

1539
01:11:22,987 --> 01:11:25,698
I don't want young people playing with it.

1540
01:11:25,740 --> 01:11:27,533
We don't know enough yet.

1541
01:11:27,575 --> 01:11:30,870
And I understand that, historically,
a lot of people have used kratom.

1542
01:11:30,912 --> 01:11:32,538
- <i>Yeah.
- I get it.</i>

1543
01:11:32,580 --> 01:11:35,458
But the bottom line that gives me pause
over and over again,

1544
01:11:35,499 --> 01:11:38,586
is that we are faced now in the United States

1545
01:11:38,628 --> 01:11:41,965
with a staggering epidemic

1546
01:11:42,006 --> 01:11:44,592
- of opiate abuse and addiction.
- Yeah, huge.

1547
01:11:44,634 --> 01:11:46,302
I don't wanna add to that.

1548
01:11:46,343 --> 01:11:48,721
- I don't want more people introduced...
- Yeah.

1549
01:11:48,763 --> 01:11:51,557
- ...to addicting opiates.
- But Pharma is actually putting out stronger opiates.

1550
01:11:51,599 --> 01:11:53,184
Pharma is another story.

1551
01:11:53,226 --> 01:11:54,435
- Okay?
- That's the problem, right?

1552
01:11:54,477 --> 01:11:56,229
Well...

1553
01:11:56,271 --> 01:11:58,898
That's another, you know...

1554
01:11:58,940 --> 01:12:00,608
- I can't fight that battle.
- Yeah.

1555
01:12:00,650 --> 01:12:03,820
<i>Do I think Pharma made mistakes?
Oh, yes, I do.</i>

1556
01:12:03,861 --> 01:12:06,489
<i>Do I think they're responsible for some of
what we're seeing today?</i>

1557
01:12:06,530 --> 01:12:08,449
<i>Yes, I do.</i>

1558
01:12:08,491 --> 01:12:10,785
<i>But we also know there's more heroin
on the streets than ever before.</i>

1559
01:12:10,827 --> 01:12:12,620
<i>- Right?
- Yeah.</i>

1560
01:12:12,662 --> 01:12:18,501
<i>Post 9/11, Afghanistan and
the opium runs poisoned Americans.</i>

1561
01:12:18,542 --> 01:12:20,211
<i>"Just bring those drugs in."</i>

1562
01:12:20,253 --> 01:12:25,049
And what we need to do is we need to help
our brothers and sisters.

1563
01:12:25,091 --> 01:12:28,303
We need to look at it with a humanistic eye

1564
01:12:28,344 --> 01:12:32,098
to give people the opportunity to
kick the habit the best way we can.

1565
01:12:32,140 --> 01:12:33,975
And we've gotta be bold.

1566
01:12:34,017 --> 01:12:38,813
And maybe there's a place for kratom
under medical supervision,

1567
01:12:38,855 --> 01:12:40,898
- or in treatment centers...
- Mm-hmm.

1568
01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:44,694
...but, you know, without the money
to work that up,

1569
01:12:45,569 --> 01:12:47,030
it's not going to happen.

1570
01:12:47,071 --> 01:12:50,325
<i>In this country, every
time we have an epidemic,</i>

1571
01:12:50,366 --> 01:12:53,786
<i>we Stockton Slap it like the Diaz Brothers.</i>

1572
01:12:53,828 --> 01:12:57,456
<i>We weren't gonna let measles, mumps,
or rubella choke us out.</i>

1573
01:12:57,498 --> 01:13:01,752
<i>Smallpox, an Iron Mike Tyson KO in the first.</i>

1574
01:13:01,794 --> 01:13:06,883
<i>Like the Terminator, we decimated chicken pox
with extreme prejudice.</i>

1575
01:13:06,924 --> 01:13:09,468
<i>And when our president got polio,</i>

1576
01:13:09,510 --> 01:13:13,264
<i>we went all Ultimate Warrior
and press-slammed it.</i>

1577
01:13:13,306 --> 01:13:15,599
<i>In the '80s, they sang "We Are The World,"</i>

1578
01:13:15,641 --> 01:13:17,643
<i>and every continent banded together</i>

1579
01:13:17,685 --> 01:13:20,230
<i>and obliterated the AIDS epidemic.</i>

1580
01:13:20,271 --> 01:13:24,234
<i>Why aren't we doing the same
for the opioid epidemic?</i>

1581
01:13:24,275 --> 01:13:28,279
<i>But I called the DEA, the FDA, and the NIDA,</i>

1582
01:13:28,321 --> 01:13:30,365
<i>and they all said the same thing,</i>

1583
01:13:30,406 --> 01:13:32,449
<i>"We're not gonna talk to you."</i>

1584
01:13:32,491 --> 01:13:35,411
<i>So, it's time to take
matters into our own hands.</i>

1585
01:13:35,452 --> 01:13:38,206
<i>First, we're gonna need
some money for research.</i>

1586
01:13:38,248 --> 01:13:40,791
<i>You know, Dr. McCurdy
was with us in England</i>

1587
01:13:40,833 --> 01:13:42,752
<i>and he came out with all this new research.</i>

1588
01:13:42,793 --> 01:13:45,671
And he's saying, you know, the real thing
that we need is money for research.

1589
01:13:45,713 --> 01:13:47,798
And you've done really well with kratom.

1590
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:51,761
I just keep thinking like, "Man, if all
these other companies keep bombing out,

1591
01:13:51,802 --> 01:13:54,847
they're not testing our product, they're
not doing what they're supposed to do,

1592
01:13:54,889 --> 01:13:56,640
like, we can do it."

1593
01:13:56,682 --> 01:13:59,143
The other thing I like that
McCurdy's doing is he's developing

1594
01:13:59,185 --> 01:14:01,687
that quick and easy test for adulterants.

1595
01:14:01,729 --> 01:14:05,024
So if their people are not testing the
product, and the product is dirty,

1596
01:14:05,066 --> 01:14:06,984
he's got it. He's developing
that test for that as well.

1597
01:14:07,026 --> 01:14:10,321
So, when, like, when I did <i>Prescription Thugs,</i>
it was a different thing.

1598
01:14:10,363 --> 01:14:11,781
So I did<i> Prescription Thugs,</i>

1599
01:14:11,822 --> 01:14:13,783
I wanted to help people get off of opioids.

1600
01:14:13,824 --> 01:14:19,080
And I think that we achieved warning people
that opioids are dangerous.

1601
01:14:19,122 --> 01:14:22,499
But I wasn't able to really
get people off of 'em.

1602
01:14:22,541 --> 01:14:24,085
I wasn't able to help the problem.

1603
01:14:24,127 --> 01:14:26,212
And this is a step towards a solution.

1604
01:14:26,254 --> 01:14:28,005
I'd love to get involved, love to help.

1605
01:14:28,047 --> 01:14:31,801
We'll fund that first round
of research ourselves.

1606
01:14:31,842 --> 01:14:35,179
<i>Kelly agreed to get the ball rolling
on funding research.</i>

1607
01:14:35,221 --> 01:14:37,181
<i>So I got him to hop on a plane with me,</i>

1608
01:14:37,223 --> 01:14:40,059
<i>head to Florida, and catch
up with Dr. McCurdy.</i>

1609
01:14:51,321 --> 01:14:54,198
<i>And now, it was time to talk about
making a difference.</i>

1610
01:14:56,451 --> 01:14:59,829
Pain, emotional pain
and physical trauma pain,

1611
01:14:59,870 --> 01:15:01,914
chemically, are the same inside the body.

1612
01:15:01,956 --> 01:15:04,541
If we know that, how come
we can't measure pain?

1613
01:15:04,583 --> 01:15:06,336
Well, pain is a subjective measurement.

1614
01:15:06,377 --> 01:15:09,046
Nobody can objectify pain
measurement right now

1615
01:15:09,088 --> 01:15:10,547
<i>like you're asking, why can't we measure it?</i>

1616
01:15:10,589 --> 01:15:12,342
<i>It's the fifth vital sign now.</i>

1617
01:15:12,383 --> 01:15:16,012
<i>So, when you get checked
into an emergency room,</i>

1618
01:15:16,053 --> 01:15:17,638
<i>or you get checked into a hospital,</i>

1619
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,183
<i>they wanna check your blood pressure,
your weight,</i>

1620
01:15:20,224 --> 01:15:22,393
<i>you know, your temperature,</i>

1621
01:15:22,435 --> 01:15:25,980
<i>and then they ask you, "So, what's
your pain level on one to ten?"</i>

1622
01:15:26,022 --> 01:15:30,234
There's no way to judge that other than
you telling me "a ten."

1623
01:15:30,276 --> 01:15:33,029
How can we get involved? How can we help
a lot of people?

1624
01:15:33,070 --> 01:15:35,072
And how do we bring<i> this,</i>

1625
01:15:35,114 --> 01:15:39,660
because we believe a lot in this plant and
the possibilities that it can provide.

1626
01:15:39,702 --> 01:15:42,788
We need to know where we stand
on abuse potential.

1627
01:15:42,830 --> 01:15:47,502
We need to know where we stand on the
limitations of, you know, how much can we give,

1628
01:15:47,543 --> 01:15:49,462
what doses do we need to be giving,

1629
01:15:49,504 --> 01:15:51,255
how do we need to be giving it?

1630
01:15:51,297 --> 01:15:53,883
If we can have a standardized material

1631
01:15:53,924 --> 01:15:58,637
that we know meets whatever the guidelines are
for that standardization,

1632
01:15:58,679 --> 01:16:01,349
and doesn't go above or below that,

1633
01:16:01,391 --> 01:16:03,184
so that every time you get that product,

1634
01:16:03,226 --> 01:16:06,396
you're getting exactly what you signed up for.

1635
01:16:06,437 --> 01:16:09,023
You know, you can look at
it in the spirits industry,

1636
01:16:09,065 --> 01:16:11,526
you can look at it in the tobacco industry.

1637
01:16:11,567 --> 01:16:16,197
If we eliminated all opioids from
the face of the earth tomorrow,

1638
01:16:16,239 --> 01:16:18,032
they'll find something else.

1639
01:16:18,074 --> 01:16:20,493
- Street chemists will make a new one.
- To go after it, right?

1640
01:16:20,535 --> 01:16:23,287
So, I don't think it's gonna
be the end-all, be-all,

1641
01:16:23,329 --> 01:16:25,789
but I certainly think it's gonna be a solution

1642
01:16:25,831 --> 01:16:32,838
that will help people that are really
interested in getting off of opioids.

1643
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:35,716
Why I became a pharmacist was because I wanted
to help people.

1644
01:16:35,758 --> 01:16:39,053
Why I ended up becoming a researcher

1645
01:16:39,095 --> 01:16:42,932
was because, along the way, I fell in love
with the fact that we can make discoveries

1646
01:16:42,973 --> 01:16:44,600
that would impact far more people

1647
01:16:44,641 --> 01:16:47,978
than if I was just at your corner drug store.

1648
01:16:48,020 --> 01:16:52,900
If we make a really important discovery,
or we're able to be a part of

1649
01:16:52,942 --> 01:16:57,530
a big process that can affect, you know,

1650
01:16:57,572 --> 01:16:59,282
not just people on the corner,

1651
01:16:59,323 --> 01:17:02,910
- but people on every corner, right?
- Yes.

1652
01:17:02,952 --> 01:17:06,122
Not just in this country,
but across the continent,

1653
01:17:06,163 --> 01:17:08,249
across the globe.

1654
01:17:08,291 --> 01:17:11,544
I would love to see in my lifetime,

1655
01:17:11,586 --> 01:17:16,299
that we were able to contribute
in a huge, positive way

1656
01:17:16,340 --> 01:17:20,970
to opioid addiction, drug addiction,
in a bigger picture,

1657
01:17:21,011 --> 01:17:24,056
because I really think this is beyond
just opioid addiction.

1658
01:17:24,098 --> 01:17:26,809
We felt strongly enough about
it to file the patents,

1659
01:17:26,850 --> 01:17:32,356
originally, on treating essentially every drug
of abuse.

1660
01:17:32,398 --> 01:17:33,941
So, we got the team together.

1661
01:17:33,983 --> 01:17:36,360
Team's here. We can do it. We can do the work.

1662
01:17:36,402 --> 01:17:37,820
<i>This is exciting,</i>

1663
01:17:37,861 --> 01:17:39,989
<i>and the reason I make documentaries.</i>

1664
01:17:40,030 --> 01:17:42,908
<i>Dr. McCurdy has agreed to move forward
with his research</i>

1665
01:17:42,950 --> 01:17:45,869
<i>to the point of the first human
clinical trials with kratom.</i>

1666
01:17:45,911 --> 01:17:48,623
<i>And that can only happen if
we're all on the same page.</i>

1667
01:17:48,664 --> 01:17:52,627
The DEA is soliciting public comment
about kratom through December 1st.

1668
01:17:52,668 --> 01:17:56,589
After that, it will decide whether it
will proceed with any kind of regulation,

1669
01:17:56,631 --> 01:17:58,215
permanent or temporary.

1670
01:17:58,257 --> 01:18:00,134
<i>Kratom advocates went to work</i>

1671
01:18:00,176 --> 01:18:03,179
<i>and sent over 5,000 comments to the DEA.</i>

1672
01:18:03,220 --> 01:18:05,097
<i>But as the deadline got closer,</i>

1673
01:18:05,139 --> 01:18:06,516
<i>I started getting nervous.</i>

1674
01:18:06,557 --> 01:18:07,933
<i>What if it wasn't enough?</i>

1675
01:18:07,975 --> 01:18:09,935
<i>What if they did really ban this plant</i>

1676
01:18:09,977 --> 01:18:12,062
<i>and make it a Schedule-I drug?</i>

1677
01:18:12,104 --> 01:18:15,483
<i>Then I got an idea, and I sent the text.</i>

1678
01:18:15,525 --> 01:18:19,195
It has these properties that
help people bridge the gap

1679
01:18:19,236 --> 01:18:20,946
when they get off of opioids,

1680
01:18:20,988 --> 01:18:22,532
so they don't have withdrawals.

1681
01:18:22,573 --> 01:18:25,909
It seems like this is a drug, or a plant,
I should say,

1682
01:18:25,951 --> 01:18:29,664
that just does not have enough... There's not
enough data.

1683
01:18:29,705 --> 01:18:31,290
- There's not enough research.
- Not enough research.

1684
01:18:31,332 --> 01:18:34,126
The vet I was talking about,
he can't live without kratom.

1685
01:18:34,168 --> 01:18:36,003
<i>What are we gonna do, take it away from him?</i>

1686
01:18:36,045 --> 01:18:38,381
<i>- Yeah.
- Like, where is he gonna go? Back on opioids?</i>

1687
01:18:38,422 --> 01:18:40,675
<i>To the VA hospital? Like, it's...</i>

1688
01:18:40,716 --> 01:18:42,426
Fuck.

1689
01:18:42,468 --> 01:18:45,596
What a weird situation. So,
we really need you, Chris.

1690
01:18:45,638 --> 01:18:48,724
This documentary is actually important.

1691
01:18:48,765 --> 01:18:50,726
The one way we can keep this legal

1692
01:18:50,767 --> 01:18:52,687
and keep other things legal as well,

1693
01:18:52,728 --> 01:18:55,690
is everybody needs to go to a
website that the DEA has set up.

1694
01:18:55,731 --> 01:18:58,192
It's called kratomcomments.org

1695
01:18:58,234 --> 01:18:59,985
<i>And if you make a comment by December 1st,</i>

1696
01:19:00,027 --> 01:19:02,238
<i>the DEA has to read it.</i>

1697
01:19:02,279 --> 01:19:03,947
And your show is so powerful,

1698
01:19:03,989 --> 01:19:07,702
if we can get 10,000 comments,
then this is gonna stay legal.

1699
01:19:07,743 --> 01:19:09,704
New At Noon, a massive public outcry

1700
01:19:09,745 --> 01:19:11,330
has the Feds doing an about-face

1701
01:19:11,372 --> 01:19:14,750
on a controversial herbal supplement
known as kratom.

1702
01:19:14,791 --> 01:19:17,086
<i>The agency was flooded with
thousands of angry calls.</i>

1703
01:19:17,127 --> 01:19:19,547
DEA has backed off.

1704
01:19:19,589 --> 01:19:23,217
<i>After 23,000 public comments
submitted to the DEA...</i>

1705
01:19:23,259 --> 01:19:30,558
99.1% of the comments said, "Fuck off.
This is good."

1706
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:33,394
<i>And for now, kratom was saved.</i>

1707
01:19:33,436 --> 01:19:36,188
<i>A spokesperson for the
DEA told me on the phone</i>

1708
01:19:36,230 --> 01:19:39,233
<i>that the response was overwhelming.</i>

1709
01:19:39,275 --> 01:19:43,237
<i>They had never seen such a positive outpouring
from consumers.</i>

1710
01:19:43,279 --> 01:19:45,406
<i>There were a few comments against kratom,</i>

1711
01:19:45,448 --> 01:19:49,076
<i>one in particular from Dr. Daniel Fabricant,</i>

1712
01:19:49,118 --> 01:19:51,579
<i>who also blocked me on Twitter.</i>

1713
01:19:51,621 --> 01:19:53,414
So, there was a drug called flakka.

1714
01:19:53,456 --> 01:19:55,124
- Have you heard of flakka?
- No.

1715
01:19:55,165 --> 01:19:58,544
<i>Your body temperature
rising to 105, 108 degrees.</i>

1716
01:19:58,586 --> 01:20:03,006
<i>That's why this person had his family
dump water on him.</i>

1717
01:20:03,048 --> 01:20:05,676
<i>- Whoa.
- So, I think kratom gets lumped in</i>

1718
01:20:05,718 --> 01:20:09,388
<i>with these synthetic drugs like
Spice and flakka, that are...</i>

1719
01:20:09,430 --> 01:20:11,348
<i>Watch, this guy jumps
into the back of the car.</i>

1720
01:20:11,390 --> 01:20:15,060
What the fuck? This is someone on flakka?
Holy shit.

1721
01:20:15,102 --> 01:20:16,771
<i>We see in here, paranoia...</i>

1722
01:20:16,812 --> 01:20:20,190
<i>Relax. Relax.</i>

1723
01:20:22,151 --> 01:20:24,111
<i>Oh, my God.</i>

1724
01:20:24,153 --> 01:20:27,573
I think it was a drug that they were
selling in head shops down in Florida,

1725
01:20:27,615 --> 01:20:30,618
and it got banned within, like,
I don't know, couple of months

1726
01:20:30,660 --> 01:20:33,829
- Of it being...
- Always fucking Florida.

1727
01:20:33,870 --> 01:20:35,831
- It's always Florida.
- Goddamn, Florida.

1728
01:20:35,872 --> 01:20:38,250
The gateway to demonic possession.

1729
01:20:38,292 --> 01:20:41,462
<i>If there were ever an
epicenter of addiction in America,</i>

1730
01:20:41,504 --> 01:20:43,339
<i>it'd be Broward County.</i>

1731
01:20:43,380 --> 01:20:45,174
<i>At the peak of the pill mill days,</i>

1732
01:20:45,215 --> 01:20:47,426
<i>there were 89 of them there.</i>

1733
01:20:47,468 --> 01:20:50,346
<i>Last year, 159 people died there,</i>

1734
01:20:50,387 --> 01:20:53,516
<i>and plenty of people are more than happy
to get you sober</i>

1735
01:20:53,557 --> 01:20:55,267
<i>for a price.</i>

1736
01:20:55,309 --> 01:20:58,771
<i>This dude charged insurance companies
$58 million</i>

1737
01:20:58,813 --> 01:21:02,065
<i>for drug tests that were
completely unnecessary.</i>

1738
01:21:02,107 --> 01:21:04,819
<i>All in Florida, all the time.</i>

1739
01:21:04,901 --> 01:21:07,571
Ian Mautner was on three antidepressants,

1740
01:21:07,613 --> 01:21:10,449
that were... They all had a
black box of warning on them.

1741
01:21:10,491 --> 01:21:12,117
<i>"This may cause suicidal thoughts</i>

1742
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:14,328
<i>in young people and adolescents."</i>

1743
01:21:14,370 --> 01:21:16,038
And, you know, that's something that's like,

1744
01:21:16,079 --> 01:21:18,165
now you get to say, "Well,
he died from kratom."

1745
01:21:18,207 --> 01:21:20,959
You know, I don't think that's fair.

1746
01:21:21,001 --> 01:21:23,420
Well, I'm not gonna discuss that one case.

1747
01:21:23,462 --> 01:21:26,215
I know what the state's leading epidemiologist
will tell you.

1748
01:21:26,256 --> 01:21:28,217
- I believe you guys are gonna interview him?
- Sure.

1749
01:21:28,258 --> 01:21:32,137
I know what Dr. Mash, who studied it down
in the University of Miami

1750
01:21:32,179 --> 01:21:34,014
will tell you, and what her white paper says.

1751
01:21:34,056 --> 01:21:35,516
Let's regulate it.

1752
01:21:35,558 --> 01:21:38,935
If there's a benefit to it,
let NIDA work through this.

1753
01:21:38,977 --> 01:21:40,937
There are companies, there's three companies
out there

1754
01:21:40,979 --> 01:21:43,607
that actually do it legally,
like as a supplement,

1755
01:21:43,649 --> 01:21:46,527
and they don't label it as
"Not for human consumption."

1756
01:21:46,569 --> 01:21:48,445
Most of the companies do.

1757
01:21:48,487 --> 01:21:50,322
And I think that that's a bad thing. I think
they need to get rid of that.

1758
01:21:50,364 --> 01:21:52,408
- They need to...
- And how would you propose they get rid of that?

1759
01:21:52,449 --> 01:21:55,411
Do GMP, just run it exactly like
the supplement companies run it.

1760
01:21:55,452 --> 01:21:58,080
They test everything when it comes in,
and they test it before it goes out,

1761
01:21:58,121 --> 01:22:01,751
and they know that what it says on the label
is exactly what's in it.

1762
01:22:01,792 --> 01:22:03,419
- I think they definitely...
- Well, I wish you luck.

1763
01:22:03,460 --> 01:22:05,295
- Thank you.
- I know

1764
01:22:05,337 --> 01:22:08,090
that it's a hard thing to have an addiction
and to have to get over it.

1765
01:22:08,131 --> 01:22:09,717
- Yeah.
- And I understand

1766
01:22:09,759 --> 01:22:12,469
the fear of anybody that
wants to take it away.

1767
01:22:12,511 --> 01:22:14,137
You've seen that throughout the country.

1768
01:22:14,179 --> 01:22:17,641
The voices that are addicted to one drug
swing over,

1769
01:22:17,683 --> 01:22:20,895
and, in my opinion, are addicted to kratom and
don't want it to go away.

1770
01:22:20,936 --> 01:22:22,688
It was never a problem before.

1771
01:22:22,730 --> 01:22:25,274
It's banned in its country
of origin for over 42 years.

1772
01:22:25,315 --> 01:22:26,567
Do you know why?

1773
01:22:26,609 --> 01:22:28,527
Because it was cutting into the heroin trade.

1774
01:22:28,569 --> 01:22:31,280
They weren't making enough money
off of their drugs,

1775
01:22:31,321 --> 01:22:35,033
- So they had to cut down kratom.
- Oh, that's such a freakin' ridiculous soundbite.

1776
01:22:35,075 --> 01:22:38,454
<i>Kristin Jacobs couldn't seem to get
any of her bills passed</i>

1777
01:22:38,495 --> 01:22:40,664
<i>or garner any support.</i>

1778
01:22:40,706 --> 01:22:42,332
It's getting completely slandered,

1779
01:22:42,374 --> 01:22:45,001
people are putting it with
bath salts and spice,

1780
01:22:45,043 --> 01:22:47,254
which is crazy.

1781
01:22:47,296 --> 01:22:49,840
Everything in this package
upon this ordinance,

1782
01:22:49,882 --> 01:22:51,007
it's all negative.

1783
01:22:51,049 --> 01:22:52,843
It's not balanced, it's not broad,

1784
01:22:53,677 --> 01:22:55,387
it's inexcusable.

1785
01:22:55,429 --> 01:22:57,264
There are people that are hurting out there,

1786
01:22:57,306 --> 01:23:00,016
and you wanna ban this stuff
and put them in jail.

1787
01:23:00,058 --> 01:23:02,645
I know, Commissioner Jacobs,
this is your last meeting.

1788
01:23:02,686 --> 01:23:05,314
And I would like nothing more
than to vote for something

1789
01:23:05,355 --> 01:23:07,316
that you brought in your last meeting,

1790
01:23:07,357 --> 01:23:09,067
but I'm not yet ready to vote on this.

1791
01:23:09,109 --> 01:23:11,654
You are dealing with those who are addicted,

1792
01:23:11,695 --> 01:23:14,448
and you're sitting there, listening to
all those maybe addicts in the room

1793
01:23:14,490 --> 01:23:15,783
saying that they're not addicted,

1794
01:23:15,825 --> 01:23:17,576
and you're hearing others up here,

1795
01:23:17,618 --> 01:23:19,077
out of a lack of knowledge,

1796
01:23:19,119 --> 01:23:21,580
and indeed, even our own medical examiner,

1797
01:23:21,622 --> 01:23:24,333
who doesn't exactly deal with live people...

1798
01:23:24,374 --> 01:23:26,585
<i>I guess it's not
the voice of addiction,</i>

1799
01:23:26,627 --> 01:23:28,253
<i>it's just the voice of reason.</i>

1800
01:23:28,295 --> 01:23:31,298
<i>And it came down pretty
hard on Kristin Jacobs.</i>

1801
01:23:31,340 --> 01:23:33,091
<i>All of her bills got shot down,</i>

1802
01:23:33,133 --> 01:23:35,678
<i>but she still keeps trying.</i>

1803
01:23:35,719 --> 01:23:38,973
<i>After the hearing, the Florida State
Law Enforcement Bureau</i>

1804
01:23:39,014 --> 01:23:41,224
<i>conducted their own investigation</i>

1805
01:23:41,266 --> 01:23:43,268
<i>and came out with this statement.</i>

1806
01:23:43,310 --> 01:23:45,646
<i>"A review of the information
currently available</i>

1807
01:23:45,688 --> 01:23:49,441
<i>through identified law enforcement
and laboratory sources in Florida</i>

1808
01:23:49,483 --> 01:23:53,779
<i>indicates that kratom does not
constitute a significant risk</i>

1809
01:23:53,821 --> 01:23:57,491
<i>to the safety and welfare
of Florida residents."</i>

1810
01:23:57,533 --> 01:23:59,368
<i>In the case of Ian Mautner,</i>

1811
01:23:59,409 --> 01:24:01,077
<i>Florida State Law Enforcement</i>

1812
01:24:01,119 --> 01:24:03,413
<i>said the presence of other
controlled substances</i>

1813
01:24:03,455 --> 01:24:06,124
<i>may have contributed to the
subject's state of mind</i>

1814
01:24:06,166 --> 01:24:08,669
<i>at the time of the suicide.</i>

1815
01:24:08,711 --> 01:24:11,171
<i>I wanna live in a world that is pain-free,</i>

1816
01:24:11,213 --> 01:24:13,674
<i>addiction-free, and judgment-free.</i>

1817
01:24:13,716 --> 01:24:16,343
<i>I wanna reverse this pain epidemic.</i>

1818
01:24:16,385 --> 01:24:18,762
<i>Being out of pain is a basic human right.</i>

1819
01:24:18,804 --> 01:24:20,639
<i>So, if someone is stuck in pain,</i>

1820
01:24:20,681 --> 01:24:22,182
<i>or stuck in addiction,</i>

1821
01:24:22,224 --> 01:24:23,893
<i>we need to have the compassion</i>

1822
01:24:23,934 --> 01:24:26,896
<i>to reach out and pull them out of it.</i>

1823
01:24:26,937 --> 01:24:30,065
<i>I'll do everything I can to help further
the research on kratom</i>

1824
01:24:30,106 --> 01:24:32,401
<i>and other effective non-addictive painkillers.</i>

1825
01:24:32,442 --> 01:24:34,361
<i>But I do think it's kind of ironic</i>

1826
01:24:34,403 --> 01:24:36,112
<i>that we have to do all these studies</i>

1827
01:24:36,154 --> 01:24:39,324
<i>for something that's been used safely
for hundreds of years.</i>

1828
01:24:39,366 --> 01:24:40,743
<i>In the past decade,</i>

1829
01:24:40,784 --> 01:24:44,413
<i>under the watchful eyes
of the FDA and the DEA,</i>

1830
01:24:44,454 --> 01:24:47,917
<i>with all their hundreds of clinical
trials, studies, and warnings,</i>

1831
01:24:47,958 --> 01:24:50,711
<i>and all the programs to keep kids off drugs,</i>

1832
01:24:50,753 --> 01:24:54,715
<i>over 200,000 Americans have
died from opioid painkillers,</i>

1833
01:24:54,757 --> 01:24:57,885
<i>a lot of people I really loved.</i>

1834
01:24:57,927 --> 01:24:59,762
<i>So much for your war on drugs.</i>

1835
01:24:59,803 --> 01:25:02,389
<i>The opioid crisis is an emergency,</i>

1836
01:25:02,431 --> 01:25:05,851
<i>and I'm saying officially,
right now, it is an emergency.</i>

1837
01:25:05,893 --> 01:25:07,895
<i>It's a national emergency.</i>

1838
01:25:07,937 --> 01:25:10,105
<i>We're going to spend a lot
of time, a lot of effort,</i>

1839
01:25:10,146 --> 01:25:14,109
<i>and a lot of money on the opioid crisis.</i>

1840
01:25:14,150 --> 01:25:17,279
<i>Kratom may not be the only hope
for this opioid crisis,</i>

1841
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:19,114
<i>but it's certainly one of them.</i>

1842
01:25:19,155 --> 01:25:22,492
<i>So before we turn our backs on
something that God gave us,</i>

1843
01:25:22,534 --> 01:25:25,621
<i>maybe we all just need
to take a leaf of faith.</i>

1844
01:25:44,389 --> 01:25:48,936
Um, ask, "So, when you did the studies,
were there any side effects with the rats?"

1845
01:25:48,978 --> 01:25:51,647
So, when you did the side effects, were there
any studies with...

1846
01:25:51,688 --> 01:25:53,023
Were there...

1847
01:25:53,065 --> 01:25:54,441
- This is...
- Side effects.

1848
01:25:54,483 --> 01:25:56,110
- This is gonna make the blooper reel.
- Yeah.

1849
01:25:57,987 --> 01:26:00,948
So, right over here, this house,
this is the guy I was talking about.

1850
01:26:01,615 --> 01:26:02,866
With the gay feet.

1851
01:26:02,908 --> 01:26:05,077
Ah, was it really bad?

1852
01:26:05,119 --> 01:26:06,662
I'm just kidding. I'm trying to point
shit out, so it looks like we're talking.

1853
01:26:07,704 --> 01:26:09,164
Oh, if you die at my house...

1854
01:26:09,205 --> 01:26:12,626
Um, you signed a waiver, right?

1855
01:26:12,668 --> 01:26:14,419
- I haven't signed a waiver yet.
- Ah, shit.

1856
01:26:16,505 --> 01:26:17,714
You should talk about smoking, buddy.

1857
01:26:17,756 --> 01:26:19,215
I still smoke. I still have bad habits.

1858
01:26:19,257 --> 01:26:20,717
No, no, no. I don't wanna
talk about that.

1859
01:26:20,759 --> 01:26:22,761
- No?
- No.

1860
01:26:22,803 --> 01:26:24,096
My mother thinks I quit.

1861
01:26:24,138 --> 01:26:25,722
Oh, your mother thinks...

1862
01:26:25,764 --> 01:26:27,307
- Let's see the dance moves.
- Yeah, yeah.

1863
01:26:27,349 --> 01:26:29,559
No, no. I'm shy.

1864
01:26:29,601 --> 01:26:30,602
Okay.