I asked if you wanted one and you said no.
-I didn't. -You did.
-You did a kind of shrug. -I never heard you ask anything.
Well, I did.
Well, you need to talk louder, Tony. Project.
[slurps]
Mm!
[exhales]
[Warren] Cups of tea are nice,
but they're never nicer, are they…
than when you've got a biscuit to go with them.
-You'd agree, wouldn't you? -I've always thought that.
-There you go, Kyle. -Thanks, Vanessa.
I feel sorry for you, for both of you.
Your mouths must be very dry.
Would you like a biscuit, Tony?
Only if you make us a cup of tea first.
I'll do it for three.
-Three? -Three, up front.
Or I'm going nowhere.
Two biscuits, one up front, one on delivery.
-How did you do so well out of this? -[Warren] That's the deal, Tony.
Take it or leave it.
[door opens]
[tense music playing]
They're bringing him up now.
Aren't we meant to wait?
[Reiss] She doesn't want to give him time to think.
[elevator pings]
[tense music continues]
[door slams]
[tense music continues]
What are you looking at?
He's talking to himself!
[chair scraping]
[Myerscough] Here we go.
[eerie music playing]
[beep]
[Hobbs] The time is 16:10 on Thursday the second of April.
Present, DCI Natalie Hobbs…
[Reiss] DS Jamie Reiss.
[Hobbs] And…
Singh, Sandeep.
Zero-six, zero-four, eighty-two.
How was the trip over from… where is it now, Belmarsh?
You were in Brixton before, yes?
I have no intention of helping you with your inquiries. None whatsoever.
Whatever they may be.
But you know what they are, Sandeep.
You were told when you were arrested in your cell.
I heard what they said. I just don't know anything about it.
[Hobbs] Remind me.
Prior to conviction, you were a successful businessman, weren't you?
Projects in Malaysia, Singapore, investment opportunities…
When you were first arrested in 2010
and the custody sergeant asked for your address,
you said you had "properties dotted around the south of England,
and different cars for different days of the week."
That's the kind of character we were dealing with at the time.
-But the woman you murdered… -[Reiss] Samantha West.
[Hobbs] Whose money you wanted, who said she would invest in one of your schemes,
but pulled out on the advice of her brother…
She realized you weren't the business expert
you claimed you were.
No.
-Which is why you killed her? -No.
No, I killed her
because she did not give me her money on the date
that she said she would, and that made me very angry.
Not because I was a bad businessman.
Well, at least your business reputation wasn't damaged.
What would you know about business?
Hmm?
What would you know about business?
About as much as you, by the sounds of things.
Your only remaining property now is a studio flat in central London, yes?
No.
Once again, no. Where did you even get that from?
She's talking about your cell.
This is not improving your chances of me answering your questions.
You're raking over old ground. And for no good reason.
-[Hobbs] Well, hang on… -This has nothing to do with me.
[Hobbs] Let us be the judge of that.
And even if you think it does,
let me remind you, I have no intention of answering your inquiries.
None whatsoever.
-[Hobbs] Sandeep-- -Whatever they may be.
[scoffs] For a man who says he won't talk…
The name Annabelle Ashcombe…
Does that mean anything to you?
Annabelle was a young entrepreneur from Colchester.
She went missing in September 2009.
That's seven months prior to your arrest for the murder of Samantha West.
Not a case you're aware of, no?
Her parents are now divorced.
Mum got the house and still keeps Annabelle's bedroom just the way it was,
in case Annabelle decides to walk in through the door
as if the last 11 years never happened.
Part of that means she cleans the room
to stop it turning into some sort of dusty shrine,
and last week while she was doing this,
she found something she hadn't noticed before.
A disposable camera.
Do you remember those?
The little wind-on cameras people used to leave on tables at weddings?
On that camera was an undeveloped photo
of Annabelle Ashcombe at just such a wedding,
the weekend before she went missing.
Not the last photo ever taken, but not far off.
Upsetting for a mum to see, but…
also a nice thing to find.
And that would have been that,
had Annabelle's mum not spotted someone else in the photo.
A person you might recognize.
A man later convicted of the murder of Samantha West.
And when we saw that we thought, "That's funny.
A murder victim and a murderer together in the same shot like that?
We should call Belmarsh, invite Sandeep Singh over for a chat…
or a business meeting, as he might prefer to call it."
[Reiss] That is you, isn't it?
-Where was this taken? -That wasn't the question.
-At a wedding? -At a wedding in Maidenhead.
Never been to Maidenhead.
-Well, with resp-- -Sorry, that's just a fact.
[Hobbs] Well, we disagree.
It's almost as if, Sandeep, we've got a photograph to prove it.
That is you.
And that…
is Annabelle Ashcombe.
And six days later, after that was taken, she disappeared.
Don't forget. [clears throat]
Sorry?
To ask your question.
What are you asking me?
I'm asking how you explain that.
I can't.
-But you-- -Next.
-But you knew Annabelle Ashcombe. -No.
-But you met her. -No.
-She's in the same photo. -Yes.
-[Hobbs] With you next to her. -Behind her.
-You're with her. -She's facing the other way.
-[Hobbs] You weren't introduced? -[Sandeep] I don't know if that's her.
-[Hobbs] Well, that is her. -[Sandeep] But I don't know that, do I?
I only know that's her because you keep telling me,
but I genuinely could not pick her out of a line-up.
I wonder if she would say the same about you.
-She can't do anything about it now. -No, she can't, and why is that?
Because you say that she's been murdered.
Which is terrible.
-You think murder's terrible? -Listen!
I do not sit in my cell feeling proud.
I regret what happened with Samantha West.
I live with the fact that I took the life of another
every single day.
-[Hobbs] Sandeep-- -But I only did that once!
And I do not deserve to be pinned to every single unsolved crime out there
because I fucked up on this one occasion!
Yes?
Sit back in your chair for me, Sandeep.
There's a good chap.
[Petit] Should… should we get uniform in the room?
[Myerscough] Only to stop her attacking him.
[sighs]
It might have been the Ogbonnas.
He's Nigerian. Public school type.
If that was the wedding, then yeah, I was there. On my own.
That's the one.
I remember that as being in Marlow.
Marlow's not far from Maidenhead.
What day did she go missing?
-The following Friday. -What date is that?
That would be September fourth.
September fourth, 2008.
Nine.
This was 2009?
A few months before you were arrested for the murder of Samantha West.
We've already said that.
In that case, I can help you.
I can help you with your inquiries.
It was not me.
And how did we suddenly work that one out?
Because…
I took a contract with Intrepid in 2009,
which I've already told you about
in my last interview, 2010.
I took a job as an Excursion Manager with Intrepid Cruises
for six weeks in the autumn of 2009.
Not because I have an interest in travel,
but because cruise ships are filled with cash-rich 60-somethings who…
and I will level with you… are perfect potential investors.
I did the same thing a few years earlier and the dates were always the same.
Travel out to Miami on the August bank holiday,
do a two-day induction and…
off you go.
Miami, Cozumel…
Saint Kitts, Saint Thomas…
-Yeah. Bang on. -…back to Miami.
[Warren] Shall I get a number?
Yeah.
[Sandeep] They still run that route, I think.
And like the wedding…
they certainly took photos, too.
[Reiss clears throat]
[Hobbs] Interview suspended at 16:21.
[beep]
[rumble of thunder]
The cruise is confirmed as leaving Miami on the second,
and by the time Annabelle goes missing on the fourth,
he's a million miles away, playing gin rummy, doing the Macarena.
And he was definitely on board?
Yeah, he's even in the big group photo that they do on deck.
-So he's alibi-ed. -Yeah.
Were Annabelle Ashcombe's family told about the arrest?
No.
Ah, well… Nothing lost, eh?
It's not our fault he didn't do it.
[Hobbs] Mm.
Do you want me to tell him?
-Mm-hmm. -Okay.
Right, the van from Belmarsh is still downstairs.
You need to give them two minutes' notice so they can bring it round.
Okay?
So that's it? We just stop?
Well, what were you after? Some kind of conversational warm-down?
[Warren chuckles]
[Sandeep] But the driver from Belmarsh isn't collecting me till six.
You've got me for another hour.
Don't need you for another hour.
What you told us checks out.
Conversation's over.
Why? Was there something you wanted to add?
No, there was something I wanted to ask.
Had I known who was responsible…
And had I been open to telling you…
What then?
What would it have been worth?
-Do you? -No.
But…
You have, sitting before you…
someone who has spent the last ten years
sharing cells and corridors
with some of the most dangerous men in the country.
And those men talk.
So there are crimes…
high-profile crimes…
high-profile, unsolved crimes, that I do know something about,
I can help you with.
And you have a one-hour window in which you can talk to me.
So, to go back to my…
original question…
What is it worth?
Well, why don't you tell us what the case is
and we'll decide whether it's high profile and whether we want your help.
Or…
if we are brainstorming here,
you name some of the highest-profile unsolved crimes you can think of,
and we'll see if it comes up.
How about…
Okay, then.
The guy who fired into the crowd at the, uh, Newcastle concert.
[tense music playing]
[Reiss] The man who killed the male sex workers in Birmingham last year?
Sorry.
[sighs]
What would you say, Tone?
I'd say he should hurry up and tell us himself.
Otherwise, we'll use the whole hour just doing this bit.
The missing boy.
[clicks tongue] Alfie.
-[typing] -Alfie…
Alfie Ince. That's it.
Alfie Ince.
[Warren] Shut up!
That would be of interest, yes?
Considered high profile?
Enough that, if I told you what happened,
I may be able to negotiate a reduction in my sentence?
[Warren] You are joking, aren't you?
This has got to be bullshit.
[Myerscough] Well, we'd need to check, but, um… [clears throat]
…in theory it's not impossible.
Good.
So with, what, 55 minutes left,
let's find a way to do business.
[clears throat]
Get DCS Miller on the line.
Tell her we need a prosecutor.
-CPS. -We're calling them now.
Oh, God.
-What if he's lying? -But what if he's not?
-Got to be nonsense. -But what if it's not?
It's one of the biggest unsolved cases in the country.
No, I know, I know.
Wait.
Paul Ottager. He worked the Alfie Ince case, didn't he?
-Did he? -Yes.
We were in the pub, he was telling us all about it.
-Not the investigation, the case review. -Guv…
If we can get Paul to sit in, he can help steer this.
Guv, it wasn't Paul Ottager that worked the Alfie Ince case.
-The CPS is sending Donna Swift. -Oh…
Ten minutes away and not happy about missing a leaving do at Wahaca.
[line ringing]
Hey, where are you?
[elevator pings]
[Swift] It's a two-stage process.
First, a scoping interview
in which Mr. Singh will give us whatever information he claims to have,
then a debrief.
That's then written up,
signed by you, signed by us, signed by the SIO,
to confirm the information is sufficiently helpful.
Then that's all put before a judge,
who's the only person who can approve the reduction of the term.
Can we guarantee the reduction in the sentence in advance?
Not without knowing the quality of the information.
-No. No, you're right. But… -It would be foolish.
Sure. But if we made that a condition…
Provided the information is of value…
We can certainly look into it.
Thank you.
Could we look into it now?
We're in a hurry, I can tell.
What is the case that Mr. Singh is looking to help us with today?
Alfie Ince.
-As in… -As in, Alfie Ince.
He can help with that?
He says he can, yeah.
[Myerscough] The prosecutor's working to see if she cannot guarantee
a reduction in your sentence.
-[Sandeep] How long will that take? -Five or ten minutes.
[Sandeep] That won't leave us much time. There's a lot I've got to tell you.
But this deadline of yours, it's not real, is it?
We can talk again tomorrow.
You could. I won't.
[Reiss] So you won't want to discuss a reduction in your sentence tomorrow?
I'm giving you a one-hour window, less than that now…
to guarantee me a reduction in my sentence.
Do that and I will tell you what happened to Alfie Ince.
Fail, and my offer to help is retracted.
That is the line that I'm taking.
And I'm taking it because putting you on the spot like this
gives me a better chance of a bigger reduction.
Now you may or may not choose
to believe that deadline is real.
That's up to you.
That's on your conscience.
You are the ones who will have to tell Alfie Ince's parents
you decided to not take me seriously.
And in answer to your next question…
I want four years taken off.
[Reiss] From a 14-year bid?
Of which you've already served ten.
Meaning you'd barely go back to Belmarsh at all.
[Sandeep] Only to collect some of my stuff.
Is four years even doable?
It's right at the top end.
Done his homework, that's for sure.
Gavin? Gavin, can you hear me?
He was always going to bring this up, wasn't he?
And there I was, not wanting to give him time to think.
Okay.
But there can be no further requests.
We can't have you increasing your demands as we go.
Four years.
That is the price.
-That is the deal. -Nothing else?
Well, maybe a cup of tea.
Oh, and… a biscuit,
if you have one.
But if I can stick a piece of paper in front of him,
something in principle, I've got a feeling that might…
Yes, I know.
Yes, I realize, but Gavin, this is Alfie Ince.
[tense music playing]
[machine whirring]
[elevator pings]
[Duffy] Is that for me?
[printer beeps, whirring]
[buzzing]
[Hobbs] Hugo worked the Alfie Ince case review back in 2015.
He knows it better than any of us.
And you remember it?
Yes, ma'am.
Then I want you straight in.
Yes, ma'am.
Twenty-nine minutes to go.
-Says who? -Says him.
[Warren] And we've decided to take him seriously.
The recording is yet to start?
Tony wanted to wait for you.
You know, I was thinking about this on my way over.
I should use all this to my advantage.
Tell you I'm not setting foot in that room unless you let me back in here.
Reinstate me.
You were never going to try that, Hugo. You're too good a man.
And a rubbish negotiator.
[Swift] From the CPS.
For your colleague.
That should get him talking.
[pulsing music playing]
Okay, let's go.
[pulsing music continues]
[beep]
[Myerscough] Interview starts at 17:42.
Present in the room, Detective Inspector Tony Myerscough.
Hugo Duffy. And?
Singh, Sandeep, 06-04-82.
The Crown Prosecution Service's way of saying
they'll recommend a four-year reduction to your sentence.
Provided what I tell you is any good, yes?
What happened, where he is…
-[Myerscough] Whether he's dead or alive. -No, he's not alive.
He was dead within hours of being thrown into the van.
But we're getting ahead of ourselves. [clears throat]
We begin at the beginning.
[slurps]
[exhales]
He was right.
The chap before you.
I was in Brixton before Belmarsh,
2010, somewhere around there.
First time being locked in a cell.
Nothing more terrifying.
Nothing, I promise you.
When they lock that door…
and the lights go out…
and all you're left with
are the memories of the actions
that brought you there in the first place…
It's haunting.
And the only guy…
more terrified than me
was the guy…
a few cells down.
Turns out he's a high-end car thief.
The kind of cars that go missing on Bond Street one day,
and end up in Bulgaria the next.
I start thinking,
it might be worth getting closer to this guy
for business reasons, because, you know, Bulgaria…
Macedonia…
all those countries around there are full of potential investors.
And, if he can introduce me,
I could make it worth his while, blah, blah, blah.
Anyway, we're slowly making plans.
And once I have his trust…
he starts telling me
that this route to Bulgaria
is used for more than just cars.
-Alcohol? -Alcohol.
-People? -Yes.
-Girls, boys… -Yes, that's it.
Alfie Ince.
-That's what I'm coming to. -So he did do it?
That's what I'm telling you.
That he trafficked Alfie out of the UK?
For 25 grand.
That's what I thought.
[Myerscough] We need a name.
[Sandeep] But on the ferry over, he said that Alfie tried to get out.
That Alfie climbed into the front of the van
and tried to kick through the windscreen and had to be subdued.
That's how it happened.
Screaming and shouting.
He'd have given the whole thing away,
the whole system, supply line, had he not been subdued.
That's how he ended up killing him.
And his name?
Burying him in some national park, uh…
Near, what did he say? Uh, Arnhem.
All these details, they're nothing without a name.
[sighs]
John Brian Buchanan.
He lives at The Ridge, Emlin Lane, near Loughton.
Which means Epping Forest is his patch.
And what? You just happen to know his full address off by heart?
I do.
It was the address we were to use to set up a business.
It was to be our base.
A company doing what?
No comment.
Something illegal, then.
Physical laundering.
The company was going to make money by moving money.
All right? That was the idea.
Illegal if it had started, but we didn't, so you're fine.
We stopped once I found out that, uh…
Buchanan had branched into something that was…
unacceptable to me, personally.
He's right, CPS records have Buchanan charged for smuggling,
sexual offenses…
All manner of stuff.
I'm no angel,
but it doesn't make what he did any less abhorrent.
That's why I'm telling you all of this.
Is that right?
[Sandeep] I'm giving you all the information you need for Alfie.
Really?
And it feels like you're attacking me for it. Is that your role here?
I don't have a role here, Sandeep. Not anymore.
I'm just here because I promised his family I'd do everything I could.
So when I heard you were here talking about this,
I became a bit like the guys in Brixton…
Keen to pay you a visit.
Did he live alone?
Who?
Buchanan.
He was in prison.
But the house in Emlin Lane where you were going to base this…
business.
Did he live there alone?
So why not do it somewhere more private?
-There was nowhere more private. -No?
It was the only place we had.
No, no. You're forgetting, Sandeep, you're a man of property.
Houses dotted around the south of England.
[Duffy] Now, I don't remember addresses off by heart, not in the way you do.
In a way, that, to me, seems a little…
over-prepared.
But looking back at the old Hugo Filing System,
I did come across…
Ash Lane.
Two, Ash Lane.
It's a little cottage of yours.
I said to my guv at the time, when we were doing the review,
"Let's go down to Belmarsh, see what Sandeep Singh has got to say.
After all, we've got a convicted murderer living in Ash Lane in Thornwood.
That's only 200 yards from where Alfie Ince was at the time."
-That's not true. -What's not true?
Alfie Ince is from Loughton. Not Thornwood. That is well documented.
It is, but Sandeep, this was the summer holidays
and he was with his nan that day.
Who lives in Thornwood.
Near you.
[Sandeep sighs]
That was the link here, you see?
That's why I came running down here like my career depended on it.
And that's what had me interested back then, but my guv at the time…
He said not to bother with you.
Because you, in his words…
"…were the wrong kind of psycho."
Not a nonce.
Just a narcissist.
So we never went looking for Alfie at your place.
Not then, anyway.
But now,
we are checking.
Are you?
No.
[Duffy] We have sent scene-of-crime officers up there.
Number Two, Ash Lane, Thornwood.
See, I remembered it that time.
They're gonna have a look around,
have a dig about,
make sure Alfie isn't there after all.
You're a businessman, yeah?
So while you think on that, let us make you an offer.
So, how about this?
If they find a body,
instead of a reduction in your sentence, you'll be getting another 14.
That makes sense, yeah?
Whether you did this alone or with Buchanan,
you'll now be serving two life sentences.
Don't need a spreadsheet to work that one out.
However, if you cooperate,
if you are contrite, and you genuinely try to help,
a judge may well look favorably on that.
It's what's known in your world as cutting your losses.
[Duffy] So save us all time,
and tell us where to dig, Sandeep.
Tell us what they'll find, and whereabouts in your back garden they will find it.
I'm going to have to hurry you, mate. This offer only stands till 6:00 p.m.
Yeah? Why six?
-Because the SOCO team's on its way. -And because that's the line we're taking.
[Duffy] Tell us what they'll find, Sandeep, when they get there.
With all that scanning equipment and all that.
Your garden, your patio, under your floorboards…
When they start looking.
[Myerscough] Forget the big mirror.
The microphones, and anybody else who might be watching.
Just tell us the truth.
What will they find?
What will they find, Sandeep?
[Duffy] Who will they find?
Make it better for the family.
Tell us now, Sandeep.
They'll find Annabelle Ashcombe.
[sinister music playing]
[sighs]
She told me, at the wedding,
she could invest half a million.
Half a million.
That meant I decided to not take the job on the cruise.
She comes to see me a few days after,
at the cottage.
Says she's changed her mind.
Meaning I've lost both the investment…
and the job.
And that's when I lost it.
I asked her if she'd like to see the garden.
I don't know why.
I do know why.
And while she's standing there…
just like in the photo…
facing the other way…
I hit her with a pole.
Once.
That's all it needed.
And that is when the football landed in the garden.
Sorry?
He comes in a few seconds later to fetch it.
Alfie?
I say she's poorly.
Had had a fall.
I ask him to help me.
To check, see if she's still breathing.
And as he's leaning over, back comes the pole.
[sinister music continues]
I went out to Florida…
but only got on the boat in time for the photo at the end.
But I made sure I was in it… I made sure I was in it…
I made sure I was in it!
[exhales gruffly]
They'll see a cross in the grass, your…
scene-of-crime people.
Where the bird table used to be.
Tell them to dig around there.
[Warren] Right. I'll notify the SIO.
[Petit] I'll call Belmarsh, say we're hanging onto him for now.
[Warren] On it, Guv.
[sinister music continues]
[sighs]
[exhales deeply]
[roar of traffic]
[chair scraping]
So the prosecutor's gone, and it's drinks at the Rose.
-Right. That's where we're off to, is it? -That's the rumor.
Except Jamie's not coming, because of all the paperwork,
and Vanessa's giving Kyle a lift home.
Oh, so it's just you, me and Hugo.
-[Hobbs] Well, Hugo can't. -[Myerscough] He can have a soft drink.
[Hobbs] He needs an early night. Starting a new job in the morning.
So, still worth it, then?
What do you mean?
How many clues do you need?
[eerie music playing]
Interview terminated at 18:13.
[beep]
[Warren chuckles] Yes!
[eerie music continues]