[woman] This is a nice set-up you've got here.
[electronic crackle]
[over speaker] There was a time I thought about joining the police force.
Can you imagine? [chuckles]
Not like, uniform or… you know, on the beat,
whatever you call it, but… a detective.
Like on TV. Like Columbo!
[Hobbs] So what happened?
-"Just one more thing!" -[Hobbs] Danielle?
-[Danielle] What? -[Hobbs] Why didn't you?
Oh, God.
Why does anyone do anything?
And this was years ago.
This is like, when I was in school.
Then boys happened, kids came along…
My crime fighting days were over before they'd even begun.
You'll be relieved to hear. I won't be taking your job just yet.
Well, that's not quite true, is it?
How do you mean?
You seem to have been doing some detective work of your own.
Oh, you're talking about the website?
Pesticide, it's called.
-Yeah. -Yeah. Pesticide.
The only time we ever got any credit was for the business with, um…
You know, what's his name? Lewis. The first one.
The teacher.
Yeah, yeah. Teacher. Do you know about that one?
Why don't you tell us? For the tape.
[Danielle] Okay.
Uh, Lewis. Uh, Crispin Lewis.
He was a teacher at my daughter Fiona's school.
P.E. teacher, I think he was.
And then, completely out of the blue we get a letter saying he'd been fired.
Turns out it was for having kiddie porn on his work computer.
Not that he ever touched Fiona, you know, ever, but you know…
He could have.
So look, the point is,
a couple of months later I saw him.
In the menswear department in John Lewis.
The first thing that comes into my head is nothing to do with…
the abuse, or anything like that. It was just, "Oh, that's funny.
Crispin Lewis, in John Lewis!"
[chuckles] Stupid, really.
But then I think…
"He's landed on his feet."
If he's shopping in John Lewis.
To be fired as a teacher for that kind of thing…
So, I go home.
I google him.
Turns out he's got another job
at another school, a private school.
Just a couple of miles away, and I think to myself…
"That's not right."
So I get my old scrapbook.
It's got all the press clippings and cuttings from the first time round.
I copy them. It's like, 10p a page but it's worth every penny.
And I send them to the headmaster of the new school.
With a covering letter that just says "To whom it may concern…
and you should all be concerned, frankly…
you may want to be aware of the following.
Please see enclosed…" Etcetera.
A couple of days later I get a call from the school,
thanking me for my letter.
And the head of Year Nine, Mrs. Bradley,
she tells me in confidence that he's been fired for a second time.
And that it was all down to me.
And to think I nearly went to House of Fraser! [chuckles]
[eerie music playing]
[camera clicking]
-[elevator dings, door opens] -[clicking]
[beep]
[Hobbs] So that, in your mind, was a positive start?
Yeah, I found myself thinking afterwards,
"If that man can find that job that easily,
then, you know, who else is out there?
What can I do to stop them?"
Well, the traditional way is to go to the police.
No.
No, not with these sorts of people.
No, because you need evidence.
You know, you can't just go accusing people of this kind of thing.
You need facts and you need evidence
and the only reason I had facts and evidence
about Mr. Lewis in John Lewis
is because it had been in the papers.
But in answer to your question, yeah.
That is when it started.
Pesticide?
Pesticide. Yeah.
-Yeah. -Which is a play on words.
"Pest" as in someone who pesters you,
and "cide" as in death,
as in, homicide.
Well, "cide" as in death, but "pest" as in vermin.
-And you're the founder? -Yeah. Well, yeah…
More like the lead singer of the band.
[Petit] You accept that you're involved?
Yeah.
And you're of the opinion that everything Pesticide does is legal?
Well, I'm more than "of the opinion," Kyle.
I mean, I know. I check.
We check. We make sure. That's why I'm happy to have my name on the website.
Are you familiar with the term "vigilante"?
[chuckles] Mm-hmm.
Would it be fair to call it that?
Well, you, Kyle, must call it what you want.
But if you do find yourself calling it that,
maybe ask yourself why vigilantes came to exist in the first place?
Because the people whose job it is to protect them…
[mouthing]
…have let them down.
Do you ever ask yourselves that?
[Hobbs] Okay.
Just to be 100 percent clear on this, Danielle,
you do know why you've been arrested?
[Danielle] Yeah, you told me.
[Hobbs] For making an improper communication online.
-Yeah, you said. -You're not worried by that?
I would be worried if I'd done anything wrong
but I haven't, so I'm not.
End of story.
-[Hobbs] And you don't want a solicitor? -[Danielle] They lived happily ever after.
-Danielle? -No, thank you.
You are entitled to one.
Yeah, noted, but no.
Shall I get you one anyway, in case you change your mind?
Have you done it already?
I might have done.
Well, then they will be waiting some time.
Okay.
So let's get to the reason you're here.
Andrew Simmons.
Oh, Andrew.
That's good.
You're familiar with the name?
Yeah, very.
Although that is not what he calls himself online.
No?
No. God, no. They all have pseudonyms.
So explain how you came to meet Andrew Simmons.
I've never met him.
-Online? -Online. Yeah.
Yeah, Just talk us through how that worked.
Well, it's the same as it is with all of them.
You know, I set up a fake profile,
fake name, fake pictures.
I do that in a forum or a chat room.
And you're posing as a 14-year-old?
Exactly.
Then I say that I'm looking to make new friends,
looking for a bit of fun, that kind of thing.
And I just wait.
Wait?
For…?
For perverts.
Perverts like Andrew Simmons.
Because they have to be the ones to make first contact, to initiate.
I mean, that's how we get our legal protection.
They have to start it.
And when they do, in the nicest possible way, Kyle,
God fucking help them.
You'll have to bleep that out.
And so little by little,
when we start chatting, so they begin to give themselves away.
God love them, they can't help themselves.
When you say, "give themselves away…"
Did you not receive the Pest Pack?
The envelope I sent. If this is about Andrew Simmons, then…
Right. Yeah, that's it.
Good.
I do them like that so they go to the top of the pile.
Actually, for future reference, do them like that, they go straight to Security.
This one took three days to be opened.
Putting "Pesticide" on the back didn't help.
This is what you sent us on Simmons.
It's mainly a transcript of an online conversation
that took place in the second half of December.
That chat is between someone called
"Porsche64," who you identify as actually being Andrew Simmons,
a 52-year-old media accountant from Putney.
And "Pixie Girl",
a pretty, blonde 14-year-old girl from Belsize Park…
who is actually you.
-And it gets quite graphic. -Only on his side.
Right, but it gets quite sexually explicit quite quickly.
Yeah.
[sighs] Some of them take a while to get going, you see?
"What would you like to do when we first meet in the flesh?
How about we go to the cinema?"
"Maybe we could hold hands."
Like blood from a stone.
Not this guy.
This is from an office party.
No, is that him?
[chuckles softly]
Looks so friendly, doesn't he?
Nice, smiley, beardy face…
[Hobbs] Okay, the pair of you exchanged over 400 messages.
We can't read them all, but just to give us an idea,
on 16th December,
you say how flattered you are by his messages,
but "I can't chat more tonight because I need to do my homework."
Yeah, in reality I'm at a carol concert
with Peter, my seven-year-old.
Simmons replies undeterred,
asking more about your school,
about what goes on there.
-About my uniform. -About your uniform.
I'm thinking, "Here we go."
The next morning you're on him again, asking what he got up to last night.
He texts, "Not much.
After my wife goes to sleep I'm all alone. Crying face, crying face."
-He's a big fan of the emoji. -As are you.
I do it to come across like a 14-year-old.
He does it to come across like someone a 14-year-old would like.
Well, therein lies the modern mating ritual, Natalie,
but did you notice what he did there?
Spot it?
We now know he's married.
He's given that away. That's our first clue.
And it might not seem like much, but those clues soon begin to add up.
And you start to hone in on who the pervert is for real.
Oh, it's very clever.
Now, there's no need for that.
And you don't think you're leading him on at all?
-How can I be? -Sorry?
I'm 14.
-Are you? -Yeah.
As far as he's concerned, I am.
But not in reality.
In the same way that playing Mario on my brother's Gameboy
never made me a plumber.
No, this is different. Mario's a computer game.
-This is a game. -No.
-Also played on a computer. -No, this is real.
If Mario ends badly you can go back to the start.
If this ends badly… well, kids don't get to do that, do they?
That is why we do it.
Did he?
Did he what, babe?
Send you a picture?
Okay.
On the 24th, he asks
if you fancy any of your teachers.
Yes, you say, you fancy one of them badly.
You remind him you're only 14.
Yeah, see, that's important.
"But boys my own age do nothing for me."
Come on, you're giving him an open goal here.
Yeah, but he still has to be the one to kick it in the back of the net.
"Ever thought about getting with someone more experienced," he asks.
You ask what he means.
And then there are several pages of him telling you exactly what he means,
and exactly how much he means it.
With more photos to help illustrate, and with more encouragement from you.
And all this, while you're getting things ready for Christmas, presumably.
Sorry?
These are from Christmas Eve,
so you're fitting all this entrapment in around, what?
Peeling Brussels sprouts?
You're clearly a very busy 14-year-old woman.
Thirty messages between 11:00 p.m. and midnight alone.
You ask him about the other girls he's spoken to.
"If you're so experienced," you say…
You want him to tell you about them.
"…I need someone who knows what they're doing."
And on this point he is particularly communicative.
He gives you numbers,
lots,
gives their ages.
He offers up pictures. You say seeing pictures would turn you on.
This is how we do it. We build the case. We build the clues.
You ask where he works.
The accountants, Paddington.
What music he likes.
Rock music.
And what he drives.
An old BMW convertible.
Although if you look on Google Earth
you'll see he actually drives a Kia Sportage.
"Maybe you could pop round to see him."
This is one late night suggestion.
"You could be his special Christmas present,
but only if he asks nicely and tells you exactly what number he lives at."
You look at me like that, but this is how we do it.
This is how we find them, we go after the clues.
-Like Cluedo. -[Hobbs] But not like Cluedo, Danielle.
because that's a game and this is real, remember?
But he doesn't give his address over straight away.
Not that night.
It wasn't until sometime after that he gave it up.
Yeah. Got it in the end though, didn't I?
It's like I said, these men…
can't help themselves.
-Got that other photo lined up? -[Warren] Yeah, it's coming.
No, may as well do it now, though, yes?
[Warren] Alright, Tone.
[Myerscough groans]
I didn't.
You were thinking it.
[Hobbs] Is there a small part of you that enjoys this?
There's a small part of me that's satisfied by it.
Yeah.
-By the process? -No, by the outcome.
He's been arrested? There is an outcome.
We can't tell you that.
I'll take that as a yes.
Do you ever send pictures back?
What, do I look like a 14-year-old blonde girl from Belsize Park?
No.
But you might have pictures that do.
Yeah, I might, but I don't,
and even if I did, I wouldn't send them.
Wouldn't cross that line.
So there's a line?
[Hobbs] So the two of you are pen pals over the festive period.
Then just before midnight on New Year's Eve,
while he's watching fireworks with his family,
Andrew Simmons receives a message from a different account,
this time openly affiliated to Pesticide,
explaining this has all been a trap.
That Pixie Girl isn't real,
but the messages and pictures of himself that you've been busily sending
definitely are.
You explain that packages containing everything you've received
are to be sent out first thing in the morning.
One to the police,
one to his work,
Blue State Finance, in Paddington, as you say,
and one to his wife's parents, wherever they are.
Newcastle-under-Lyme.
And that's what you did, signing off with a final message:
"Here's a New Year's resolution for you, Andy.
Why not spend the next 12 months being less of a twisted fuck?"
[chuckles] Sorry!
Sorry, I forgot I put that.
You've destroyed this man's life.
-No. -Yeah.
-You do realize that? -No.
No, credit where credit's due, he did that all by himself.
[eerie music playing]
[Myerscough] My old man's at war with the council over residents' parking.
This is up near Preston.
And… he's sent thousands of emails.
Right.
He's even found out where the head councilor lives.
He's been round to deliver letters personally
because he says he never gets a response.
[both chuckle]
[sighs]
Whole thing's giving him heart problems, according to my brother.
Are your parents still together?
Yep.
Right. So what does your mum make of it all?
[chuckles lightly]
Well, she says, "For a man that went to the Falklands and survived Goose Green,
your dad's sure picked an odd bloody hill to die on."
[chuckles]
-You're not comparing that with this? -No.
I'm saying, people go on crusades.
All right. Well, I wouldn't lump your dad in with her yet,
especially given what's to come.
Henry Regis. Solicitor. They told me to come straight up.
-Natalie. -Hi. Take a seat. Thanks.
[Hobbs clears throat]
She's yours for an hour.
I'd…
Yeah, I'd keep it smiley, at least to begin with.
Okay.
[Myerscough] Interview resumes at 18:10.
New into the room in place of DCI Hobbs, DI Tony Myerscough.
-[Danielle] What happened to Natalie? -Oh, she's still here.
She asked me to come in for this bit.
I'm the member of the team who's been looking most closely at the fallout.
Ah.
Okey-cokey.
So, this group of yours, Pesticide.
How many of you are there, again?
What do you mean, "again"?
How many of you are there?
Well,
if you read the newspapers every day, Tony, like I do,
you'll know the answer: not enough.
Excellent. [chuckles]
But if you were to put an actual figure on it?
[chuckles softly]
Don't say I said anything, Kyle,
but this guy's hilarious.
That's the reason why you're here, in case you hadn't realized.
We need the names and contact details of all those involved.
Groups like yours do a great deal of harm.
Well, at least they do something, which is more than can be said for you lot.
I'm just saying,
even though they mean well,
they can provoke violence and retribution in others,
they can get in the way of real police inquiries.
There are many effects to their actions. Okay?
Okay.
So how many are we talking? Ten, 20?
More?
It doesn't matter how many.
Well, then if it doesn't matter, say.
No problem.
We'll come back to that later.
After we've gone through the consequences of these packages,
which means… I don't know if my colleague Vanessa can hear me,
but we won't be needing the photo of the girl just yet.
[Danielle] What photograph?
[Myerscough] I gave her a bit of a hard time about it not being ready.
I feel bad now.
[Danielle] What photograph? I didn't send any photograph.
Must be like firing missiles, these.
You know they have the potential to do untold damage
and you just hope they hit their target.
Well, good news, for your team, anyway.
They had the desired effect.
The package that you sent
to Blue State Finance was opened by Samira.
That's the chairman's PA.
Simmons was called up from a little office he shares with a colleague.
Tried his best to deny it, of course.
Was fired on the spot.
Just like that. Twenty-one years in the company,
and out that morning with nothing but a cardboard box.
The second package arrived at Scotland Yard, as we know,
and as we know, took over three days to be opened.
The final package
arrived at Andrew Simmons's mother-in-law's house
in Newcastle-under-Lyme,
while she was having her breakfast.
And?
Well, it was enough to put her off her egg and soldiers.
-Put it that way. -[scoffs]
That being said, what she did manage to do amidst a blizzard of indecency,
was to call Siobhan, her daughter,
Simmons's wife, to tell her all about it,
and that in turn caused Siobhan
to drop to her knees on the kitchen floor
and have what is known as a cued panic attack.
Cued by you.
Cued by him.
Well, let's come back to that later.
But that was their 27-year marriage as good as over.
[chuckles]
I mean…
you say that like it's a bad thing.
Are you married, Tony?
Let's call that a no. Well, just imagine you are for a second.
You'd want to know.
You'd want to know
if your partner was involved in something like this, wouldn't ya?
And there is no easy way to find out.
You ask her.
Danielle,
at any point during your exchange with Andrew Simmons,
did the name Chloe come up at all?
No.
-[Petit] That name doesn't ring a bell? -Mmm.
Chloe is someone Andrew Simmons has been in contact with a lot.
She's 15. Goes to school a quarter of a mile from where he lives.
She's quite an academic girl, doing GCSEs a year early,
already thinking about universities, what degree to do…
Something maths-related.
Bastard.
[Petit] There are other subjects in the mix but maths is the clear favorite.
Complete and utter bastard.
This was taken in A & E, on sixth January,
-by Chloe's mum. -What? Wait a second, what?
She's been back at home, weeks now. Not back at school, though. Not yet.
What, sixth January? That's three days after I sent out the Pest Pack.
-The what pack? -This!
This arrived on the third, you told me that.
But it took you people three days to open it.
That's three days between
being warned about this pervert and this happening.
Don't even try to deny it. It's on your cameras and it's on these.
[microphone feedback]
And now, look.
-How many people are there in Pesticide? -What more do you people need?
-The names of all those involved. -You get everything handed to you,
on a plate. And still you let him do this.
Let who do this?
Simmons.
Danielle, Andrew Simmons didn't do this.
You did.
You remember the egg and soldiers.
The 80-year-old mother-in-law who calls Siobhan.
Siobhan drops to her knees and has her panic attack.
Well,
an ambulance had to be called.
And who does that, Danielle?
Who helps Siobhan to her feet
and calls for an ambulance?
Hmm?
Her 15-year-old daughter.
Chloe.
Chloe, who knows nothing about the fact
that her dad's been accused of being a pedophile until three days later,
when she's approached by a gang of girls from school, keen to have a chat.
Word's got out, you see.
Daddy's a twisted man.
And so this is what she gets.
Now, I say a gang of girls from school.
But what's the word that I'm looking for?
Hmm?
Came up earlier.
Vigilantes.
[tense music playing]
[chuckles nervously]
Natalie, can you hear me in there?
[tense music continues]
Client wants you in the interview.
We haven't even met.
[keypad beeping]
[buzzer]
[Myerscough clears throat]
You've arrested her for making an improper communication online.
Which I have not.
So, how do you know that, sorry?
Because… [scoffs]
…impersonating a juvenile online isn't illegal.
I can impersonate anyone I want.
Mahatma Gandhi. Fuckin' King of Norway… anyone.
But if some pervert approaches me,
if he initiates contact,
then I'm within my rights to find out how much of a menace he really is.
If anything I should be applauded for it.
[Henry] But, with respect…
that's not why you've been arrested.
Making an improper communication online does not relate to you.
It relates to someone you affect. It's like slander.
So if you say someone is a pedophile and that is untrue,
then if they suffer as a result of your false allegation…
that's a criminal offense.
Have you accused someone of being a pedophile?
Yeah.
And are they?
Yes.
Well, then it falls to the detectives here to prove otherwise.
And if they can't, then I'm sure they'll soon let you go.
He knows, the solicitor.
He doesn't know what, but he knows there's more coming.
[Myerscough clears throat]
Do you remember, Danielle, when Natalie was in here? DCI Hobbs.
She said it took Simmons some time to give you his full address.
Seventy-four, East River Walkway, Putney,
London, SW15.
Why do you think that was?
Oh, I don't know, Kyle!
Maybe because online predators don't like giving themselves away.
But if that was the case, he never would have told you at all.
He'd already told you he was married, and that he drove an old BMW convertible.
Which is bullshit. Check Google Earth.
Maybe he was starting to think…
that you were onto him.
That's why he took so long to give you his full address.
Do you remember DI Myerscough telling you how,
when Simmons was called in to see the chairman,
he came upstairs from an office he shared with a colleague?
Do you know what car that colleague drives?
An old BMW convertible.
A 1988 BMW 3 Series, navy blue, with light cream leather interior.
I say that's the car he drives. He has several. Cars are his thing.
Do you know what his dream car is?
I don't know.
-Chitty Chitty Bang Bang? -Think, Danielle.
He'll never be able to afford it.
It's one of the first ones they ever made.
A Porsche 64.
It wasn't Andrew Simmons you were talking to, Danielle.
It was his colleague, Casper.
Casper Lindström,
using Simmons's computer in their shared office.
There's Casper.
Casper's desk.
And… the calendar.
When you were on his case, going after the clues, like in Cluedo,
he'd have been sweating, wouldn't he?
Because you hear stories, don't you?
About pedophile hunters…
people wanting retribution, some of them…
a little unhinged.
And he'd have been thinking…
"What if they find me?
What if they track me down to this little office?
My time could be up, here.
Better to take it out on someone else."
That's why we looked at Casper.
That's why Casper's waiting downstairs in a cell, and not Simmons.
Now, I really need to insist we take a break.
Come on, Tony.
[scoffs]
I'm not telling you.
You do know that?
I'm never giving you… I'm never giving you any names.
[tense music playing]
Maybe I want to help you, Tony, but…
I can't.
[Danielle] Something to think about, isn't it?
[tense music continues]
Interview suspended at…
-18:35. -[beep]
Jeez…
[tense music continues]
What's the longest she could go down for? Fifteen, 20 weeks maybe?
And a ban from social media.
Well, there you go, then.
I think she'll take the hit to protect the team.
But that's my take, anyway.
Other theories are available.
All I keep thinking is…
Maybe we put this back on her, this entrapment thing.
How do you mean?
Let's do to her what she did to Simmons.
[Myerscough] In what way?
[buzzer]
[Hobbs] Okay, so far this year Pesticide has tweeted… what, Vanessa?
Six thousand times.
And according to their Facebook
they've been involved in the arrest of over 30 pedophiles since 2017.
And then there's the text messages, the emails, the forums.
And there's the kids to look after.
Yeah.
-You think it's all too much? -[Hobbs] For one person?
So, here's what I'm thinking.
We ask her to say how she thinks Simmons is feeling right now.
We invite her to show regret over her mistake
and lead her down a path to the point where she asks us
if he's okay.
Now when she asks us that, we make a point of saying nothing.
We let the worry set in.
Have her convince herself that he hasn't got over the loss of his job
or the attack on his daughter, and that maybe…
And look, she's got to be the one to initiate this…
Maybe…
he's taken the easy way out.
Yeah?
No. We can't do that.
[Hobbs] Well…
it's that, or,
she goes down for a couple of months and the whole thing goes on without her.
If that's all it is, that's all it is. We'll have to leave it at that.
She needs to understand what can happen
if you carry on like this.
What can happen,
but hasn't actually happened.
[phone vibrating]
Sorry. Excuse me.
Hiya. Yep, go on. What have you got?
Six men, Vanessa, just to put this out there…
Six men outed online for being pedophiles in the last year
have taken their own lives.
-Two… -Because of Danielle?
[Petit] Two… just let me finish…
were completely innocent.
-Because of Danielle? -People like Danielle.
So not because of Danielle, that's the point.
Listen,
I'm sorry, but…
we can't take issue with her and the tactics that she uses
if we're doing the same thing ourselves.
Makes us as bad as she is.
Then she really could be sitting on our side of the table.
-[door opens] -[Myerscough speaking indistinctly]
Yes. That's great. Thank you.
Guv!
Yes. Thank you very much.
I've just got off the phone with Social Services…
[ominous music playing]
[inaudible dialogue continues]
-[door opens] -[ominous music continues]
[whirring]
[beep]
[Hobbs] Interview resumes at 19:22.
Detectives Myerscough and Petit have left the room.
DCI Hobbs has returned.
For me, Danielle,
just because I don't want anyone else ending up like Chloe…
Would you write down the names
of all those you know to be involved in Pesticide?
I think we might have had this question already, Detective.
Yeah, I know. Change the record, eh?
Are you not even going to ask me the question, Natalie?
You're not even going to ask me
why we do this?
Because I am a mother, first and foremost.
Because I don't want my kids growing up in a world full of monsters.
I want them looked after, properly,
by people who know what they're doing.
Responsible people. People who know what's best for them.
People who won't let them down.
Yeah, I… I know what you mean.
And yes, you are a mum, Danielle,
but, um…
Your kids, uh, Peter and Fiona, how old are they again?
Seven and nine.
But they're not seven and nine, are they?
They were seven and nine five years ago.
When they were taken away by Social Services.
That's the information I've just been given.
And that's what started all this, right?
This goes much wider, though, Natalie.
-This is… this is a global problem. -No.
-It's a network. -Danielle…
And if you just let me talk to your colleagues
who are investigating that side of things, then I can help you make inroads…
Nobody wants that. Nobody's playing. Not any more. No.
[eerie music playing]
[clears throat]
[Myerscough] Pesticide tweeted 19,000 times
in the last two years.
Since Danielle came in this morning…
Nothing.
Danielle Dunne,
you will be charged with making an improper communication online.
You will be taken downstairs where you will be read the charge in full.
Do you understand?
I do. Yeah.
Just one more thing, though, Natalie.
Just before we get into all that…
Can I just tell you about the man who lives in the flat upstairs from me?
I mean, he is what I would like to call "a complicated individual."
I mean, not to be trusted around kids, in my humble opinion.
Can you give me 60 seconds just to talk about him?
[eerie music playing]