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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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I get woken up
by her slapping me,

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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and she said that we shouldn't
have had sex,

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and that her friends shouldn't
find out. And at around...

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..4pm, 5pm, she sent me
a text message saying,

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"Saif, you're
a piece of shit."

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A few days later, I found out

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that she's accusing me of rape.

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Louis Narrates: I was making
a documentary about young men

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accused of sexual assault
on American campuses.

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Reporter: Are you going to

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apologise to the victim?

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- There are a lot of guys
who have been told

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that they're the best

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and that they can have
whatever they want,

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and I think the idea
that a woman

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might not want
to sleep with them

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can be kind of jarring.

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Louis Narrates: Recent years
have seen a huge increase

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in reported cases of sexual
violence in universities.

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There is also now
a community that believes

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there's been an overreaction

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that tramples on due process.

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I don't know what accounts
for this moral hysteria,

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but I think Yale is fully
in the grip of it

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and I think that
their procedures

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are an obscene joke.

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Louis Narrates: For six months,
I'd followed

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a young man called Saif Khan

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through his university
investigation,

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attempting to piece together
his story

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and trying to figure out
where the truth lay.

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It sounds like you want
everyone to believe you.

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- Not everyone.

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Which...
that's just not realistic.

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- Of course, but we aren't...

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..entertaining the concept
that she could have lied.

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In the time we want, so,

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a statement on confidentiality,

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a timely warning,
and the letter.

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Louis Narrates: I was with Saif
and a lawyer

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who is advising him,
Margaret Valois.

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- Here.

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That's the... Department
of Education one.

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Louis Narrates: In 2015,
while at Yale, Saif was accused

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of raping a fellow student.

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Suspended from campus,
he was prosecuted

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but found not guilty
in a criminal trial.

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- Tell me where
you'd like to start.

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Sure. So...

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I mean, Yale responded
on the 21st.

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Louis Narrates: More than
two years on,

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he was awaiting the outcome

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of a university Title IX
investigation

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into the same incident before
he could resume his studies.

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- So, Margaret, there is now
a Title IX process,

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- is that correct?
- Yes.

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At Yale. Where is Saif
at right now?

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- He's in the same place he was
in November of 2015.

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It's just like
he's stuck at day one.

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Now, of course, there has
been a criminal trial,

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and obviously things
happened there

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and he was acquitted
of all charges.

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But as far as the campus
investigation goes,

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we don't have
any further information

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that they're sharing with us

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since the day
he was suspended.

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Louis Narrates: A neuroscience
major, Saif's life changed

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due to events
on October 31, 2015.

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Many of the details
of that night are disputed.

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What is agreed is that Saif
and a female fellow student

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both attended
a Halloween party,

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then met up at a concert,

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eventually spending
the night together.

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The following morning,
she told friends

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she'd been
sexually assaulted.

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The alleged victim had not
agreed to speak to me,

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but I'd read police notes
of interviews with her

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and other witnesses.

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At a house rented
by the production,

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I asked Saif about
the night in question.

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Yale, as I understand it,
follows a policy

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of clear and continuing
unambiguous consent.

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- Yes.

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I mean, are you
on board with that?

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- Yeah. Yeah.

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And that's my version
of the events.

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That's how things happened.

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- So, around ten o'clock,

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I think she arrived with some
friends at the party

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and, in her version, I think,

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she says she had a couple
of strong drinks

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and then some sips
or some shots

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of an unidentified liquor.

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I think she also said she had
two glasses of white wine

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and was beginning to feel
quite intoxicated.

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- I never witnessed her
drinking anything...

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...so, I guess, I'll take
her word for what she drank.

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We move things onto the,

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we're talking about
the YSO show,

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the Yale Symphony Orchestra
event.

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Her allegation is,
at this point,

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- she's really quite drunk.
- Mm-hm.

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- And it's inside
that she vomits

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for the first time.

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- So, we were sitting down,
we were flirting,

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and then, out of the blue,
she, to the side,

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just, you know,

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in the alleyway, she vomited.

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- Was it your impression that
she was drunk at this point?

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- No, no. She looked
just like any other person,

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- you know, just buzzed.
- Hmm.

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You know, just
enjoying themselves.

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She was... she was normal.

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- And then, a little after
midnight, I think...

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- Quite a while after midnight.

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...you arrive back at the dorm.

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- Yeah. I opened her door
and she said, "Saif."

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And she gave me this look,
and she was, like,

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as if, like, expecting,
and a tilted head.

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And so, I was like, "Yeah?"

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And she was like, "Do you
want to come with me?"

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I just said, "Sure."

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And so we went into her room.

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- At this point in her account,
it's blurry.

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She alleges she was
extremely drunk.

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She vomited again and more or
less collapsed on the bed.

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And then, in the night,
was aware of you on top of her,

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kind of manhandling her,

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with her head
hanging off the bed.

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And then, the next morning,

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awoke to find two used condoms,

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and the feeling of having,
you know, kind of, had sex.

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She had the impression
she'd been violated.

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- What happened
in my recollection

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is that she started

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taking her clothes off,
we were getting intimate,

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and so it led towards me
taking my pants off.

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And she started giving me
oral sex.

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At one point, she asked me
what I really liked

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and I said I like going deep.

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And so she said
she hadn't tried that,

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and so she, she...

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..tried to take me in deeper.

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She gagged and...

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..to the side, towards the door,

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she vomited again.

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And so...

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..we cleaned up the mess,
I took off my condom,

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threw it to the corner.

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She grabbed a white towel
to go shower.

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I'm on the couch,
and my long term

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open-relationship girlfriend
called me.

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We talk almost every night
and...

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..the conversation went on

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for about
two and a half hours.

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- Two and a half hours,
that's a long time.

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So, she was in the bathroom
for some of it,

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then she was on the bed.

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What was she doing?

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Had she fallen asleep?

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- I don't recall
because it was dark,

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so, I didn't really know.

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You come off the call,
what happens?

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- She woke up, saying,
"Hey, come cuddle with me."

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And so I went to the bed.

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She got on top of me
and, at that moment,

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I'd be generous to say

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if I lasted 20, 25 seconds,

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and so I just went to sleep.

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I was just dead tired.

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But a few days later,
I found out

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that she is accusing me of rape.

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In your recollection,
she was with it...

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- Mm-hm.
- ..conscious,

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fully consenting
and not incapacitated?

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- Yes.

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- Who wants to win a T-shirt?

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[crowd cheering]

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Right there,
come on up, come on up.

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I need one more,
right over here,

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somewhere right over there.

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Right there. Come on down.

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Let's give these two a big,
big round of applause.

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Come on, give it up.

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So, here's the deal.

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- You're on a date.
- OK.

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Date's going so well,

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you want to give
your partner a kiss.

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You like this, alright,
very good. So...

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[laughter]

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How do you know
when it's the right time

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to make your move?

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Louis Narrates: For freshmen
throughout the US,

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the start of the school year

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involves orientation classes
on sexual consent.

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Crowd: Two, three.

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[laughter]

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- Now, Joey,
once you get the look,

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do most people stop and say,
"May I kiss you?"

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Or do most people
just go for it?

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Now you, personally, what do
you think most people do?

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Probably go for it.

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Alright, let's see
what the room thinks.

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- Go for it.

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Louis Narrates: Policies
on consent vary,

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but most require each sex act

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to be clearly agreed to.

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- For instance,
why don't we just ask,

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"Can I kiss you?"
instead of going for it?

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If you agree with that,
say, "Yes, I do."

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Crowd: Yes, I do.

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Louis Narrates: To investigate
allegations of misconduct

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and take disciplinary measures,

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colleges have special
Title IX administrators,

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so named after the federal law

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against sexual discrimination
in education.

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- I'm Louis.
- Nice to meet you.

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- Jordan Draper.
- Jordan.

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Louis Narrates: Jordan Draper
is Title IX coordinator

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at the College of New Jersey.

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- These cases are not easy.
They're very hard.

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There's a lot of grey.

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There is this pressure
of hook-up culture.

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There's pressure
or involvement of alcohol,

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and it's all this kind of grey,
nuanced area

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that makes it...

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..unclear for students to be
able to really understand,

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"Does this person want
to engage in this activity?"

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And those are the cases that we,

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myself and my colleagues,

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are kind of seeing
across college campuses.

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- So, is it the case that
there could be an incident

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that would not meet
a criminal standard

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of being a sexual assault,

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but that in a Title IX sense
would be a sexual assault?

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- Yes, absolutely...
- That's correct?

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- ..and that's because
of the standard, so to...

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Information to show
beyond a reasonable doubt

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that something happened
compared to more likely than not

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is just drastic.

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You need a lot less information

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for the college process,
and again,

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that's because you're just
removing somebody,

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potentially,
from your institution

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as opposed to jail.

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Louis Narrates: But recently,
under President Trump,

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there has been pushback
amid claims

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the Title IX process is
Kafkaesque and overreaching.

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- The truth is that
the system established

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by the prior administration
has failed too many students.

253
00:11:21,241 --> 00:11:23,068
With the heavy hand
of Washington

254
00:11:23,172 --> 00:11:24,827
tipping the balance
of her scale,

255
00:11:24,931 --> 00:11:27,586
the sad reality
is that Lady Justice

256
00:11:27,689 --> 00:11:30,379
is not blind on campuses today.

257
00:11:32,172 --> 00:11:33,793
Louis Narrates: Many young men
found responsible

258
00:11:33,896 --> 00:11:35,724
for sexual assault
see themselves

259
00:11:35,827 --> 00:11:39,241
as victims of a new
politically correct culture.

260
00:11:43,172 --> 00:11:46,103
Saif's case had become
something of a cause celebre.

261
00:11:49,413 --> 00:11:52,034
When we'd spoken, he'd been
at pains to stress

262
00:11:52,137 --> 00:11:55,862
what he saw as the unfairness
of his treatment.

263
00:11:55,965 --> 00:11:59,827
- This letter says that
I'm suspended immediately

264
00:11:59,931 --> 00:12:03,793
and this letter says
that I'm being...

265
00:12:03,896 --> 00:12:06,448
..you know, investigated
for sexual misconduct

266
00:12:06,551 --> 00:12:08,655
by the university-wide
committee.

267
00:12:08,758 --> 00:12:11,655
So, I went to the dean's office.

268
00:12:11,758 --> 00:12:13,758
They told me I have 30 minutes
to pack up and leave,

269
00:12:13,862 --> 00:12:15,551
and so I went
to my room hurriedly.

270
00:12:16,586 --> 00:12:17,724
And I said...

271
00:12:18,862 --> 00:12:19,896
.."Fuck".

272
00:12:21,689 --> 00:12:23,689
And I started realising...

273
00:12:23,793 --> 00:12:25,793
..like, wow, this...

274
00:12:26,827 --> 00:12:29,379
..this is huge, that, that...

275
00:12:29,482 --> 00:12:31,448
..you know, like it's,
it's rape.

276
00:12:32,413 --> 00:12:34,344
So, you've been suspended...

277
00:12:35,689 --> 00:12:36,862
..ever since?

278
00:12:36,965 --> 00:12:38,620
Yeah. You know...

279
00:12:41,034 --> 00:12:42,482
I, I've lost a lot.

280
00:12:49,172 --> 00:12:50,655
I'm also very tired.

281
00:12:52,275 --> 00:12:53,379
Very tired.

282
00:13:04,068 --> 00:13:05,310
Just really tired.

283
00:13:29,206 --> 00:13:31,448
Louis Narrates: Saif's view
of himself as a victim

284
00:13:31,551 --> 00:13:34,758
of a cruel injustice
was apparent

285
00:13:34,862 --> 00:13:36,965
and yet it was also worth
recalling that for years

286
00:13:37,068 --> 00:13:39,068
it had been the voices
of female victims

287
00:13:39,172 --> 00:13:41,068
that had been largely unheard.

288
00:13:44,862 --> 00:13:47,689
One of the early advocates
for more awareness of assault

289
00:13:47,793 --> 00:13:49,931
was a young student
at Columbia University

290
00:13:50,034 --> 00:13:51,758
who made an allegation

291
00:13:51,862 --> 00:13:53,896
against a fellow student
in 2013.

292
00:13:56,896 --> 00:13:58,758
- Hi, Emma?
- Hi!

293
00:13:58,862 --> 00:13:59,965
- Louis.
- Nice to meet you.

294
00:14:00,068 --> 00:14:02,793
Emma Sulkowicz is now an artist
working in New York.

295
00:14:04,413 --> 00:14:05,862
Emma's best known work

296
00:14:05,965 --> 00:14:07,655
remains a senior thesis project

297
00:14:07,758 --> 00:14:10,241
which involved carrying
a mattress around campus.

298
00:14:12,827 --> 00:14:14,275
- Normally, when I give talks,

299
00:14:14,379 --> 00:14:16,034
I just show this photo.

300
00:14:16,137 --> 00:14:18,310
- Was it your actual mattress
that you slept on

301
00:14:18,413 --> 00:14:19,655
on the night in question?

302
00:14:19,758 --> 00:14:21,793
- No.
- But it was the same kind?

303
00:14:21,896 --> 00:14:24,551
Yeah, yeah.

304
00:14:24,655 --> 00:14:27,241
These are the rules
of engagement

305
00:14:27,344 --> 00:14:29,793
for myself to follow.

306
00:14:29,896 --> 00:14:32,482
"Whenever I'm on campus
property,

307
00:14:32,586 --> 00:14:35,241
"I must have the mattress
with me."

308
00:14:35,344 --> 00:14:37,827
Then it says, "If my rapist
is suspended from school

309
00:14:37,931 --> 00:14:41,068
"for any reason, I will not
perform during his leave.

310
00:14:41,172 --> 00:14:43,172
"The performance ends
if the administration

311
00:14:43,275 --> 00:14:46,241
"expels either my rapist
or me."

312
00:14:46,344 --> 00:14:49,793
For me, it was a thing
that I lived through

313
00:14:49,896 --> 00:14:51,068
for nine months.

314
00:14:51,172 --> 00:14:53,379
Um...

315
00:14:53,482 --> 00:14:56,758
This piece has affected
every aspect of my life.

316
00:14:59,310 --> 00:15:00,965
Louis Narrates: Six months
after the incident,

317
00:15:01,068 --> 00:15:02,379
Emma met
with an ex-girlfriend

318
00:15:02,482 --> 00:15:03,896
of the same man,

319
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,896
who also alleged
he'd been abusive,

320
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,586
and decided to go public.

321
00:15:08,689 --> 00:15:10,241
The media picked up on the story

322
00:15:10,344 --> 00:15:12,241
and copycat protests sprang up

323
00:15:12,344 --> 00:15:14,344
on campuses across the country.

324
00:15:17,379 --> 00:15:19,344
- There was this guy...
- Mm-hm.

325
00:15:19,448 --> 00:15:22,310
..who had been a friend
of yours, correct?

326
00:15:22,413 --> 00:15:25,172
- Yeah. I invited him
back to my room

327
00:15:25,275 --> 00:15:28,103
because that was like
our rapport at that point.

328
00:15:28,206 --> 00:15:29,172
Um...

329
00:15:29,275 --> 00:15:32,172
And we were having
consensual sex, until...

330
00:15:32,275 --> 00:15:34,137
..he started being violent

331
00:15:34,241 --> 00:15:35,896
in ways that
I wasn't comfortable with,

332
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,413
and I asked him to stop,
and he didn't.

333
00:15:39,517 --> 00:15:42,620
His account of the night,
you know, differs from yours

334
00:15:42,724 --> 00:15:45,724
and he says that you had
consensual sex.

335
00:15:45,827 --> 00:15:47,965
- Yeah, he has
a really graphic...

336
00:15:49,448 --> 00:15:52,275
..fantasy of what
happened that night.

337
00:15:52,379 --> 00:15:55,965
- So the conclusion of the
Columbia investigation

338
00:15:56,068 --> 00:15:58,586
was that he was not
responsible...

339
00:15:58,689 --> 00:15:59,931
- Mm-hm.

340
00:16:00,034 --> 00:16:02,620
..for any act of sexual
misconduct against you.

341
00:16:02,724 --> 00:16:04,000
- Right.

342
00:16:04,103 --> 00:16:07,551
- You feel extremely ill-used
by Columbia, right?

343
00:16:07,655 --> 00:16:08,724
- Yeah.

344
00:16:08,827 --> 00:16:12,275
The people on the panel
were so uneducated about rape.

345
00:16:12,379 --> 00:16:14,413
Like, I was anally raped

346
00:16:14,517 --> 00:16:17,965
and my, one of the people
on the panel was like,

347
00:16:18,068 --> 00:16:20,551
"I don't understand
how he could anally rape you

348
00:16:20,655 --> 00:16:22,206
"if he didn't have lube."

349
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:24,862
And it's like she had this,
like, idea that rapists have,

350
00:16:24,965 --> 00:16:27,068
like, rape lube
or some shit like that.

351
00:16:27,172 --> 00:16:28,517
Like, she just didn't...
I was like,

352
00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:30,241
"Well, it's an act of force,"
right?

353
00:16:30,344 --> 00:16:33,448
Like, that's the whole point
of why... it's, like,

354
00:16:33,551 --> 00:16:36,172
painful and mean and rape,
right?

355
00:16:36,275 --> 00:16:38,448
But she didn't understand that.

356
00:16:38,551 --> 00:16:40,758
So, it was like these were
the people who were deciding

357
00:16:40,862 --> 00:16:42,689
everyone's fate, right?

358
00:16:42,793 --> 00:16:44,379
Um...

359
00:16:44,482 --> 00:16:46,172
It was a total mess.

360
00:16:46,275 --> 00:16:48,413
So, as a result
of the performance...

361
00:16:51,103 --> 00:16:54,310
..this guy sued the
university under Title IX,

362
00:16:54,413 --> 00:16:57,793
claiming that he was
discriminated against,

363
00:16:57,896 --> 00:17:01,241
and I suppose it's fair
to say he regards himself

364
00:17:01,344 --> 00:17:03,448
as the real victim
in all of this.

365
00:17:03,551 --> 00:17:04,586
- Mm-hm.

366
00:17:06,068 --> 00:17:09,310
I mean, I really just wanted him
to apologise,

367
00:17:09,413 --> 00:17:11,310
and I still believe this,

368
00:17:11,413 --> 00:17:13,310
like, if he had just been like,

369
00:17:13,413 --> 00:17:15,275
"I'm so sorry I did that,"

370
00:17:15,379 --> 00:17:17,931
and, like, "I understand how
I should've listened to you,"

371
00:17:18,034 --> 00:17:20,896
you know, this would be
such a different story.

372
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,551
- It would have ended there?
- Mm-hm.

373
00:17:23,655 --> 00:17:26,275
- But in...
- Do you think, then...?

374
00:17:26,379 --> 00:17:29,103
Because, obviously,
rape is a...

375
00:17:30,206 --> 00:17:31,344
..you know...

376
00:17:31,448 --> 00:17:33,620
..arguably the worst crime,

377
00:17:33,724 --> 00:17:36,241
or one of the worst crimes,
and...

378
00:17:37,310 --> 00:17:39,517
So "sorry" seems quite weak.

379
00:17:39,620 --> 00:17:41,310
You know, "sorry I raped you"

380
00:17:41,413 --> 00:17:43,655
seems rather weak, doesn't it?

381
00:17:43,758 --> 00:17:47,068
- I think a big reason
why people

382
00:17:47,172 --> 00:17:51,448
try and avoid
being called rapists

383
00:17:51,551 --> 00:17:54,172
is that they...

384
00:17:54,275 --> 00:17:55,827
..know this label's
going to follow them

385
00:17:55,931 --> 00:17:57,275
for the rest of their life.

386
00:17:57,379 --> 00:17:59,206
Right? Like...

387
00:17:59,310 --> 00:18:00,965
"That man's a rapist," right?

388
00:18:01,068 --> 00:18:03,000
That's, like, so final.

389
00:18:03,103 --> 00:18:05,827
If we had a society in which
people could, like,

390
00:18:05,931 --> 00:18:07,689
be a rapist but then change

391
00:18:07,793 --> 00:18:08,931
and get better, and like,

392
00:18:09,034 --> 00:18:11,206
learn from it
and stop being a rapist,

393
00:18:11,310 --> 00:18:13,551
people would be
so much more willing

394
00:18:13,655 --> 00:18:15,000
to change themselves, reform.

395
00:18:15,103 --> 00:18:17,862
So, I wish he could
have just been like,

396
00:18:17,965 --> 00:18:20,448
"Yeah, I did something bad

397
00:18:20,551 --> 00:18:22,413
"and I'm going
to learn from that."

398
00:18:28,655 --> 00:18:30,551
Louis Narrates: Emma's wish
for a view of rape

399
00:18:30,655 --> 00:18:33,137
that did not overly
stigmatise perpetrators,

400
00:18:33,241 --> 00:18:34,896
as strange as it sounded,

401
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,896
was a logical consequence
of the reality

402
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,689
of how rape often takes place.

403
00:18:40,758 --> 00:18:42,137
But assaults of this type,

404
00:18:42,241 --> 00:18:44,793
during sex that was
until then consensual,

405
00:18:44,896 --> 00:18:46,827
are also the kind of cases

406
00:18:46,931 --> 00:18:48,689
police and prosecutors
struggle with.

407
00:18:50,448 --> 00:18:52,758
When Emma went to the police
18 months afterwards,

408
00:18:52,862 --> 00:18:54,241
they did not pursue it.

409
00:18:58,793 --> 00:19:00,413
Saif's case, involving someone

410
00:19:00,517 --> 00:19:02,172
he did not know well,

411
00:19:02,275 --> 00:19:04,862
had the hallmarks of being
more prosecutable,

412
00:19:04,965 --> 00:19:06,689
but at trial,
with the help of some

413
00:19:06,793 --> 00:19:09,310
anonymous financial backers,
he'd been able to afford

414
00:19:09,413 --> 00:19:10,827
the services of one
of Connecticut's

415
00:19:10,931 --> 00:19:13,103
pre-eminent defence attorneys,

416
00:19:13,206 --> 00:19:14,482
Norm Pattis.

417
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:17,482
- Hi. Norm?
- Yes.

418
00:19:17,586 --> 00:19:18,758
- Louis.
- Hey, Louis.

419
00:19:18,862 --> 00:19:19,965
- Can I come in?
- Of course you can, please.

420
00:19:20,068 --> 00:19:21,482
- How you doing?
- Very well, how are you?

421
00:19:21,586 --> 00:19:23,275
Norm was also
helping advise Saif

422
00:19:23,379 --> 00:19:24,896
on his Title IX process.

423
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,172
How's it going?

424
00:19:26,275 --> 00:19:28,758
They agreed to meet me
in his offices in New Haven.

425
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,034
And so here we are.

426
00:19:32,137 --> 00:19:34,103
So many of these
sexual misconduct cases

427
00:19:34,206 --> 00:19:38,517
seem to hinge on situations
involving alcohol, right?

428
00:19:38,620 --> 00:19:41,068
And quite often
you have a young woman

429
00:19:41,172 --> 00:19:45,758
who doesn't remember
a great deal of what happened.

430
00:19:45,862 --> 00:19:48,793
- I think that, in general,
the university will focus,

431
00:19:48,896 --> 00:19:51,344
I think,
on whether Mr Khan knew,

432
00:19:51,448 --> 00:19:52,551
or should've known,

433
00:19:52,655 --> 00:19:54,103
that she'd had so much to drink

434
00:19:54,206 --> 00:19:57,689
that any consent she gave
was compromised.

435
00:19:57,793 --> 00:19:59,344
I don't doubt
that she was feeling

436
00:19:59,448 --> 00:20:00,758
the effects of the liquor,

437
00:20:00,862 --> 00:20:02,724
but to suggest
that she was comatose

438
00:20:02,827 --> 00:20:04,586
or unable to know what was
going on around her,

439
00:20:04,689 --> 00:20:06,241
um, I don't buy it.

440
00:20:06,344 --> 00:20:09,413
I mean, I, I saw her testify,
I saw the video.

441
00:20:09,517 --> 00:20:10,448
Um...

442
00:20:10,551 --> 00:20:11,931
I just don't buy it.

443
00:20:15,448 --> 00:20:17,862
Louis Narrates: At trial,
the prosecution maintained

444
00:20:17,965 --> 00:20:21,275
that the alleged victim,
who testified she rarely drank,

445
00:20:21,379 --> 00:20:23,517
was incapacitated on the night.

446
00:20:28,931 --> 00:20:30,793
They introduced CCTV footage,

447
00:20:30,896 --> 00:20:33,137
which they argued
showed her stumbling.

448
00:20:37,068 --> 00:20:39,551
- When you play
that video in real time,

449
00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:41,620
what you'd see is her smiling,

450
00:20:41,724 --> 00:20:44,206
on his arm,
as they walked across campus.

451
00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:46,689
They weren't zigzagging.
He wasn't holding her up.

452
00:20:46,793 --> 00:20:48,862
She wasn't falling over.

453
00:20:48,965 --> 00:20:50,896
The question I asked
at some point is,

454
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,275
"Didn't it look like a couple

455
00:20:52,379 --> 00:20:54,724
"of young lovers
crossing campus?"

456
00:20:54,827 --> 00:20:57,034
This young woman has already
spent three days

457
00:20:57,137 --> 00:20:58,344
on the witness stand

458
00:20:58,448 --> 00:21:00,344
and a jury of ordinary people
in Connecticut concluded

459
00:21:00,448 --> 00:21:02,137
that she was not credible.

460
00:21:02,241 --> 00:21:03,862
The jury came back "not guilty"

461
00:21:03,965 --> 00:21:05,965
very, very quickly.

462
00:21:06,068 --> 00:21:09,275
I don't know what accounts
for this moral hysteria,

463
00:21:09,379 --> 00:21:11,517
but I think Yale is fully
in the grip of it

464
00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:13,413
and I think
that their procedures

465
00:21:13,517 --> 00:21:15,724
are an obscene joke.

466
00:21:15,827 --> 00:21:17,689
So, Norm,
you don't buy the idea

467
00:21:17,793 --> 00:21:20,655
that there is a category
of sexual misconduct

468
00:21:20,758 --> 00:21:23,448
that falls short
of being a criminal act,

469
00:21:23,551 --> 00:21:25,551
but which, nevertheless,

470
00:21:25,655 --> 00:21:28,310
universities
should not tolerate?

471
00:21:28,413 --> 00:21:30,482
- No, there may be,
I just don't think

472
00:21:30,586 --> 00:21:34,000
that it is at all applicable
in Mr Khan's case.

473
00:21:34,103 --> 00:21:36,241
What went on in that room
was not rape.

474
00:21:36,344 --> 00:21:38,896
It was not
non-consensual sex.

475
00:21:39,689 --> 00:21:40,896
It was a young woman

476
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,413
who had a little too much
to drink...

477
00:21:43,517 --> 00:21:45,758
..who woke up
with buyer's regret.

478
00:21:45,862 --> 00:21:48,172
I should have possibly,
you know, stayed put

479
00:21:48,275 --> 00:21:49,655
and just cuddled with her,

480
00:21:49,758 --> 00:21:52,586
yet I chose at that moment
to run away from that

481
00:21:52,689 --> 00:21:55,724
and just go to the couch
and sleep there.

482
00:21:55,827 --> 00:21:58,862
I should have had breakfast
with her in the morning.

483
00:21:58,965 --> 00:22:01,482
There were a lot of things
that I could have done

484
00:22:01,586 --> 00:22:03,103
to not hurt her feelings,

485
00:22:03,206 --> 00:22:06,103
but I did not
violate her rights.

486
00:22:06,206 --> 00:22:10,448
I did not violate her body
or her... her autonomy.

487
00:22:10,551 --> 00:22:11,758
I did not rape her.

488
00:22:20,931 --> 00:22:22,482
Louis Narrates:
For his supporters,

489
00:22:22,586 --> 00:22:24,206
part of the appeal
of Saif's case

490
00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:25,862
was his embodiment
of an aspect

491
00:22:25,965 --> 00:22:27,413
of the American dream.

492
00:22:30,827 --> 00:22:32,689
He'd been born to Afghan parents

493
00:22:32,793 --> 00:22:34,620
in a refugee camp in Pakistan,

494
00:22:35,896 --> 00:22:39,000
later, moving
to the Middle East

495
00:22:39,103 --> 00:22:41,137
and coming to America
on his own,

496
00:22:41,241 --> 00:22:43,034
on a scholarship, aged 18.

497
00:22:45,517 --> 00:22:47,137
I wondered whether
his life journey,

498
00:22:47,241 --> 00:22:49,068
from a traditional background

499
00:22:49,172 --> 00:22:52,275
to an America still figuring out
its sexual mores,

500
00:22:52,379 --> 00:22:55,000
might provide any clues
as to what had happened.

501
00:22:56,965 --> 00:22:59,655
- This is my first time
in New York.

502
00:22:59,758 --> 00:23:01,862
- Wow. That must have been
exciting.

503
00:23:01,965 --> 00:23:03,827
- There was a lot for me
to catch up on,

504
00:23:03,931 --> 00:23:06,586
to understand
how to adjust culturally.

505
00:23:06,689 --> 00:23:07,965
It was the first time
I had really eaten

506
00:23:08,068 --> 00:23:09,793
with a fork and a knife.

507
00:23:09,896 --> 00:23:12,379
It was the first time
I had slept on a raised bed.

508
00:23:12,482 --> 00:23:14,344
Did America represent
something for you,

509
00:23:14,448 --> 00:23:15,655
when you came?

510
00:23:16,758 --> 00:23:18,413
- A lot of things.

511
00:23:18,517 --> 00:23:20,068
It represented...

512
00:23:21,275 --> 00:23:22,379
..might.

513
00:23:23,517 --> 00:23:26,448
It represented freedom.

514
00:23:26,551 --> 00:23:27,689
- Opportunity, as well?

515
00:23:27,793 --> 00:23:30,206
Opportunity to, to make it big.

516
00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:32,241
- You were aware that
it could potentially

517
00:23:32,344 --> 00:23:34,517
lead to a career...

518
00:23:34,620 --> 00:23:36,827
- Yeah...
- ..and an income and status?

519
00:23:36,931 --> 00:23:39,448
- I mean,
that's the American dream.

520
00:23:39,551 --> 00:23:41,689
- I'm curious
whether the culture

521
00:23:41,793 --> 00:23:43,689
in the world you came from,

522
00:23:43,793 --> 00:23:46,103
you were aware of it
being more conservative...

523
00:23:46,206 --> 00:23:49,137
- Mm-hm.
- ..maybe more repressive,

524
00:23:49,241 --> 00:23:50,413
and that, in coming to America,

525
00:23:50,517 --> 00:23:52,000
that that would afford you,

526
00:23:52,103 --> 00:23:55,862
also, sort of social
and romantic opportunities.

527
00:23:57,379 --> 00:24:00,413
- Sure. There was definitely...

528
00:24:01,758 --> 00:24:05,068
..piqued interest
from a lot of people,

529
00:24:05,172 --> 00:24:08,793
oftentimes relating
to my background

530
00:24:08,896 --> 00:24:12,000
and my ethnicity,
and it seemed cool

531
00:24:12,103 --> 00:24:16,551
for people to hang out
with me or hook up with me

532
00:24:16,655 --> 00:24:19,379
based on who I was,

533
00:24:19,482 --> 00:24:22,793
and that was often a case
at Yale, as well.

534
00:24:22,896 --> 00:24:26,137
And I was taking...
benefit of that.

535
00:24:28,620 --> 00:24:32,068
- You mentioned when we first
spoke that you enjoyed,

536
00:24:32,172 --> 00:24:34,379
uh, deep-throating women.

537
00:24:34,482 --> 00:24:35,931
Where did that come from?

538
00:24:36,034 --> 00:24:39,068
Is that something you'd seen
in pornography?

539
00:24:39,172 --> 00:24:40,068
- I don't...

540
00:24:40,172 --> 00:24:41,310
- How had you acquired
that taste?

541
00:24:41,413 --> 00:24:42,965
I don't know where
it came from, but...

542
00:24:43,931 --> 00:24:45,000
..I do like...

543
00:24:46,551 --> 00:24:49,758
..you know, trying
to figure out what I enjoy,

544
00:24:49,862 --> 00:24:52,310
what I don't enjoy, you know.

545
00:24:52,413 --> 00:24:54,103
At the end of the day,
it's about...

546
00:24:55,655 --> 00:24:57,896
..what do the two people want,

547
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,344
what do they enjoy?

548
00:24:59,448 --> 00:25:02,793
- On the night in question,
she asked you what you liked,

549
00:25:02,896 --> 00:25:05,965
but I don't recall you asking...

550
00:25:06,931 --> 00:25:08,000
..what she liked.

551
00:25:08,827 --> 00:25:10,758
- That is one of the...

552
00:25:10,862 --> 00:25:12,655
..regrets that I have.

553
00:25:13,724 --> 00:25:15,517
Um...

554
00:25:15,620 --> 00:25:18,827
It actually goes against
my philosophy, it goes against,

555
00:25:18,931 --> 00:25:21,275
'cause, usually, I'm focused
on the other person,

556
00:25:21,379 --> 00:25:22,344
focused on...

557
00:25:23,413 --> 00:25:25,827
..helping them achieve
what they want.

558
00:25:25,931 --> 00:25:28,310
- So you're saying that was
out of character for you?

559
00:25:28,413 --> 00:25:29,448
Yeah.

560
00:25:46,344 --> 00:25:47,689
Louis Narrates: With an
increasing number

561
00:25:47,793 --> 00:25:49,482
of male students
found responsible

562
00:25:49,586 --> 00:25:51,137
for sexual misconduct,

563
00:25:51,241 --> 00:25:52,758
many of them are finding redress

564
00:25:52,862 --> 00:25:54,551
in an unlikely form,

565
00:25:54,655 --> 00:25:57,482
by suing their universities
under the same law

566
00:25:57,586 --> 00:25:59,862
that was used to prevent
sexual assault,

567
00:25:59,965 --> 00:26:01,137
Title IX.

568
00:26:03,689 --> 00:26:05,379
They say they are experiencing

569
00:26:05,482 --> 00:26:07,448
discrimination as men

570
00:26:07,551 --> 00:26:09,724
and large pay-outs
have been awarded.

571
00:26:10,586 --> 00:26:11,896
- Hi. Will?
- Yes.

572
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,413
- Louis.
- Nice to meet you.

573
00:26:13,517 --> 00:26:14,827
- Do you mind if I come in?
- Yes.

574
00:26:14,931 --> 00:26:16,344
Louis Narrates: Will Norris
had been studying

575
00:26:16,448 --> 00:26:19,517
mechanical engineering
at CU Boulder, when, in 2016,

576
00:26:19,620 --> 00:26:21,793
a friend and fellow student
accused him

577
00:26:21,896 --> 00:26:24,724
of two instances
of sexual misconduct.

578
00:26:24,827 --> 00:26:26,310
So this is the war room,
if you like?

579
00:26:26,413 --> 00:26:27,896
- This is my war room.

580
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,000
This is the trial,

581
00:26:30,103 --> 00:26:32,241
motions, mediation,
the seminal case.

582
00:26:32,344 --> 00:26:34,137
- The original criminal trial,
this one?

583
00:26:34,241 --> 00:26:35,137
- Yes.

584
00:26:35,241 --> 00:26:36,862
Louis Narrates: At trial,
he'd been found not guilty,

585
00:26:36,965 --> 00:26:40,275
but a Title IX investigation
determined he was responsible

586
00:26:40,379 --> 00:26:42,034
for one of the two incidents.

587
00:26:42,137 --> 00:26:44,206
- These are all files
that are related

588
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:46,448
to the Title IX proceeding.

589
00:26:46,551 --> 00:26:48,000
- I get the sense, Karen,

590
00:26:48,103 --> 00:26:49,655
you've been quite involved
in this.

591
00:26:49,758 --> 00:26:51,310
- Yes, I have.
- In Will's case.

592
00:26:51,413 --> 00:26:52,344
- I have.

593
00:26:52,448 --> 00:26:54,275
Louis Narrates: I met him
with his mother, Karen,

594
00:26:54,379 --> 00:26:56,103
a retired federal prosecutor,

595
00:26:56,206 --> 00:26:58,482
at her house in San Antonio,
Texas.

596
00:27:01,413 --> 00:27:04,482
The young woman in question,
how well...

597
00:27:04,586 --> 00:27:06,413
..did you know her? You were
close friends, would you say?

598
00:27:06,517 --> 00:27:08,137
- We were like best friends.

599
00:27:08,241 --> 00:27:10,793
We hung out all the time,
we watched movies together.

600
00:27:10,896 --> 00:27:13,379
You know, we would go on hikes.

601
00:27:13,482 --> 00:27:16,655
We... just, we hung out a lot.

602
00:27:16,758 --> 00:27:19,448
I wasn't aware
there was a situation

603
00:27:19,551 --> 00:27:22,758
until one day
in January of 2016,

604
00:27:22,862 --> 00:27:25,310
when she says,
"You know you raped me."

605
00:27:25,413 --> 00:27:28,620
Back the summer before,
we had kind of...

606
00:27:28,724 --> 00:27:31,068
we had hooked up, we had
started to have sex,

607
00:27:31,172 --> 00:27:32,931
but stopped.

608
00:27:33,034 --> 00:27:35,586
I have no idea
if she has been drinking,

609
00:27:35,689 --> 00:27:37,379
how much she had drank,
I just don't know.

610
00:27:37,482 --> 00:27:38,896
I just don't
feel comfortable doing it.

611
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,103
I don't want to do
this any more.

612
00:27:40,206 --> 00:27:41,344
- So you stopped.
- So I stopped.

613
00:27:41,448 --> 00:27:42,793
So I tell her,
"No, I don't want...

614
00:27:42,896 --> 00:27:43,965
"We can't do this."

615
00:27:44,068 --> 00:27:45,172
And she says,
"Yeah, you're right."

616
00:27:45,275 --> 00:27:46,827
- Now, in the course of this,

617
00:27:46,931 --> 00:27:48,689
a second incident
came into the mix.

618
00:27:48,793 --> 00:27:51,827
- She said this other event
happened

619
00:27:51,931 --> 00:27:55,655
in, like, January
or February of 2014,

620
00:27:55,758 --> 00:27:58,310
in which I, like,

621
00:27:58,413 --> 00:28:01,758
something like
that I held her down and...

622
00:28:01,862 --> 00:28:03,620
..tried to put my hand
in her pants.

623
00:28:03,724 --> 00:28:05,000
- "Pinned her..."

624
00:28:05,103 --> 00:28:06,206
both arms above her head.

625
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:07,241
- Right.

626
00:28:07,344 --> 00:28:09,068
- I think, at a time
when you'd been making out

627
00:28:09,172 --> 00:28:11,241
and she possibly
had her top off.

628
00:28:11,344 --> 00:28:13,275
- She gave several different
statements about this

629
00:28:13,379 --> 00:28:15,275
and, in the first statement
that she gave

630
00:28:15,379 --> 00:28:17,620
to the detective, she did not
say she had her shirt off.

631
00:28:17,724 --> 00:28:19,034
- I...
- What's your version?

632
00:28:19,137 --> 00:28:21,448
I remember this, that night.
Um...

633
00:28:21,551 --> 00:28:22,758
We started, like, kind of
playing around,

634
00:28:22,862 --> 00:28:25,034
like, kind of tickling
each other,

635
00:28:25,137 --> 00:28:27,482
where, in the course of that,
like, after,

636
00:28:27,586 --> 00:28:29,655
like, she keeps poking me,
I keep poking her,

637
00:28:29,758 --> 00:28:32,310
I ended up grabbing her
and pushing her hands down,

638
00:28:32,413 --> 00:28:35,103
which is what she was saying,
like, I pinned her hands down

639
00:28:35,206 --> 00:28:38,000
on top of her head,
or over her head.

640
00:28:38,103 --> 00:28:41,068
And... so, I mean,
we're continuing to kiss.

641
00:28:41,172 --> 00:28:43,000
Well, at that point,
I take one of my hands off

642
00:28:43,103 --> 00:28:45,931
and I go to make a move
and she tells me,

643
00:28:46,034 --> 00:28:48,586
"No, don't do that."
I said, "OK".

644
00:28:48,689 --> 00:28:51,482
So I stopped.
We continued to kind of kiss

645
00:28:51,586 --> 00:28:53,413
throughout the rest
of the night, and,

646
00:28:53,517 --> 00:28:54,413
you know, we talk,

647
00:28:54,517 --> 00:28:55,862
and then eventually she leaves.

648
00:28:55,965 --> 00:28:58,448
And what is not in dispute

649
00:28:58,551 --> 00:29:01,655
is that, following
that incident...

650
00:29:03,034 --> 00:29:04,724
..for the next 18 months,

651
00:29:04,827 --> 00:29:07,517
you continued to be
close friends.

652
00:29:07,620 --> 00:29:08,586
Yes.

653
00:29:08,689 --> 00:29:11,827
- So the result of the
Title IX investigation,

654
00:29:11,931 --> 00:29:12,862
how did they find?

655
00:29:12,965 --> 00:29:15,172
- So, they found
that I was not responsible

656
00:29:15,275 --> 00:29:16,758
for any sort of wrongdoing

657
00:29:16,862 --> 00:29:19,620
with regards
to the July incident,

658
00:29:19,724 --> 00:29:21,586
where she came over to my house.

659
00:29:21,689 --> 00:29:23,724
- The 20 seconds of... sex?
- Yes.

660
00:29:23,827 --> 00:29:26,103
They basically found I had
done nothing wrong.

661
00:29:26,206 --> 00:29:27,310
- As I understood, they said,

662
00:29:27,413 --> 00:29:30,482
"Well, she may
have been incapacitated,

663
00:29:30,586 --> 00:29:32,413
"but you would not necessarily

664
00:29:32,517 --> 00:29:33,689
"have known that."

665
00:29:33,793 --> 00:29:35,275
But then there was
a second part.

666
00:29:35,379 --> 00:29:36,931
- Right. And the second part

667
00:29:37,034 --> 00:29:41,620
was stating that this
allegation in 2014,

668
00:29:41,724 --> 00:29:44,896
that I was responsible
for that other incident...

669
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,103
- That was the pinning,
wrestling incident.

670
00:29:48,206 --> 00:29:49,103
- Right.

671
00:29:49,206 --> 00:29:50,482
- They found against you,
in fact.

672
00:29:50,586 --> 00:29:51,586
- Yes, they did.

673
00:29:51,689 --> 00:29:53,034
So, you were suspended
for about 18 months.

674
00:29:53,137 --> 00:29:54,034
- Yes.

675
00:29:54,137 --> 00:29:55,758
And then, at which point,

676
00:29:55,862 --> 00:29:58,482
what would happen,
you could be readmitted?

677
00:29:58,586 --> 00:30:01,172
- I could apply to come back,

678
00:30:01,275 --> 00:30:04,862
but I would have
to admit wrongdoing

679
00:30:04,965 --> 00:30:08,206
and attend counselling
for the wrongdoing,

680
00:30:08,310 --> 00:30:10,448
and that's just something
I wasn't willing to do

681
00:30:10,551 --> 00:30:12,379
because I didn't do
anything wrong.

682
00:30:13,517 --> 00:30:15,551
- There's a lot
of grey area in here

683
00:30:15,655 --> 00:30:17,551
and it's very difficult
to sort out,

684
00:30:17,655 --> 00:30:21,103
and I think some of it
is taking responsibility

685
00:30:21,206 --> 00:30:22,413
for your own actions,

686
00:30:22,517 --> 00:30:25,068
if you got drunk and you
maybe had sex with somebody

687
00:30:25,172 --> 00:30:27,413
that you wouldn't have
otherwise had sex with,

688
00:30:27,517 --> 00:30:30,241
that doesn't mean that person
assaulted you.

689
00:30:30,344 --> 00:30:32,241
Anybody who makes
an allegation like this

690
00:30:32,344 --> 00:30:35,137
absolutely deserves
to have it investigated fully,

691
00:30:36,103 --> 00:30:37,827
no question.

692
00:30:37,931 --> 00:30:41,586
The problem comes in
with presumptions that are made.

693
00:30:41,689 --> 00:30:43,689
And so, sometimes the courts

694
00:30:43,793 --> 00:30:46,034
have called it
a pro-victim bias,

695
00:30:46,137 --> 00:30:48,275
that a university will have
in these investigations,

696
00:30:48,379 --> 00:30:49,655
and the problem with that

697
00:30:49,758 --> 00:30:51,758
is that the second
you use the word

698
00:30:51,862 --> 00:30:54,448
"victim",
you've made an assumption

699
00:30:54,551 --> 00:30:56,931
about the veracity
of the allegation,

700
00:30:57,034 --> 00:30:59,172
and, if you make that
assumption at the beginning,

701
00:30:59,275 --> 00:31:01,379
your investigation
will be tainted.

702
00:31:01,482 --> 00:31:03,379
- As I understand it now...

703
00:31:04,517 --> 00:31:07,689
..you've turned
the tables somewhat

704
00:31:07,793 --> 00:31:11,172
and brought your own suit
against the university.

705
00:31:11,275 --> 00:31:13,310
- Is that right?
- That's correct.

706
00:31:13,413 --> 00:31:15,827
I'd like to get my degree,

707
00:31:15,931 --> 00:31:17,827
that's a big part of it.

708
00:31:17,931 --> 00:31:19,655
And then I'd like to...

709
00:31:19,758 --> 00:31:21,896
..get some of the money back

710
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,448
that my family
had to spend on this.

711
00:31:24,551 --> 00:31:27,517
- It's not just, you know,
a money dispute.

712
00:31:27,620 --> 00:31:29,137
It's somebody's reputation,

713
00:31:29,241 --> 00:31:32,068
it's somebody's career,
their education.

714
00:31:32,172 --> 00:31:34,482
It's their life, going forward,

715
00:31:34,586 --> 00:31:37,551
and so you need to have
a good quantum of evidence

716
00:31:37,655 --> 00:31:39,827
before you hold someone
accountable.

717
00:31:42,206 --> 00:31:44,655
Louis Narrates: Will's case
was difficult to figure out.

718
00:31:45,758 --> 00:31:47,448
Without speaking
to his alleged victim,

719
00:31:47,551 --> 00:31:50,517
I couldn't know for certain,
but, on the face of it,

720
00:31:50,620 --> 00:31:53,620
his 18-month suspension
seemed harsh.

721
00:32:00,586 --> 00:32:01,827
I was with Saif.

722
00:32:01,931 --> 00:32:03,206
- Hey, Louis.
- How's it going?

723
00:32:03,310 --> 00:32:04,310
Louis Narrates:
His investigation

724
00:32:04,413 --> 00:32:05,517
was still ongoing,

725
00:32:05,620 --> 00:32:08,034
but Yale had allowed him back
to continue his studies,

726
00:32:08,137 --> 00:32:09,275
pending the outcome.

727
00:32:13,931 --> 00:32:15,586
I'd like to catch up
with you properly,

728
00:32:15,689 --> 00:32:17,793
but I think we're going
to do it in your room.

729
00:32:17,896 --> 00:32:19,206
- I don't have a room.

730
00:32:19,310 --> 00:32:20,655
- What do you mean?

731
00:32:20,758 --> 00:32:23,724
- So, I've been e-mailing
the university for months now,

732
00:32:23,827 --> 00:32:26,758
saying, you know, I want
to come back and I,

733
00:32:26,862 --> 00:32:30,724
you know, I need housing,
food, classes,

734
00:32:30,827 --> 00:32:33,241
and they're telling me that
there's no available housing.

735
00:32:40,103 --> 00:32:41,379
Can you swipe me in, please?

736
00:32:41,482 --> 00:32:42,827
- Yeah.
- Thank you.

737
00:32:42,931 --> 00:32:44,413
Louis Narrates: But since
I'd last seen him,

738
00:32:44,517 --> 00:32:46,241
there had been
a strange development.

739
00:32:47,206 --> 00:32:48,448
I'd had a call from the man

740
00:32:48,551 --> 00:32:50,344
who first put me in touch
with Saif.

741
00:32:53,275 --> 00:32:55,862
They'd volunteered together
at a group called FACE,

742
00:32:55,965 --> 00:32:57,896
that advocates for students
who feel they've been

743
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,862
wrongly accused
of sexual misconduct.

744
00:33:00,965 --> 00:33:02,620
- Hi. Jonathan?
- Yes.

745
00:33:02,724 --> 00:33:03,793
- Louis. How are you doing?
- Nice to meet you.

746
00:33:03,896 --> 00:33:05,034
- Can we come in?
- Sure.

747
00:33:05,137 --> 00:33:06,896
Louis Narrates: Jonathan Andrews
had also been the subject

748
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,793
of sexual assault allegations

749
00:33:08,896 --> 00:33:10,758
and he'd helped Saif
during his trial.

750
00:33:10,862 --> 00:33:12,896
That would be great,
I'd love a coffee.

751
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,172
They'd become close.

752
00:33:14,275 --> 00:33:15,827
But since then, he'd left FACE,

753
00:33:15,931 --> 00:33:17,931
and he and Saif had fallen out.

754
00:33:18,034 --> 00:33:20,034
Thank you.

755
00:33:20,137 --> 00:33:23,517
He was now making
some disturbing claims.

756
00:33:23,620 --> 00:33:25,793
- His intent, especially
during the trial,

757
00:33:25,896 --> 00:33:27,482
was a lot more worrying,

758
00:33:27,586 --> 00:33:30,000
and that's more telling
of what may have happened

759
00:33:30,103 --> 00:33:31,931
than anything else, you know.
For example...

760
00:33:33,586 --> 00:33:35,172
..he had me...

761
00:33:35,275 --> 00:33:37,655
Well, he thought
he had me spy on her.

762
00:33:37,758 --> 00:33:39,379
- The alleged victim?
- Yes.

763
00:33:39,482 --> 00:33:40,827
- Of the... of the incident?

764
00:33:40,931 --> 00:33:42,310
Yes.

765
00:33:42,413 --> 00:33:44,275
He gave me her Snapchat
information

766
00:33:44,379 --> 00:33:46,482
and he wanted me
to send her Snapchats.

767
00:33:46,586 --> 00:33:47,965
- Was this during the trial?

768
00:33:48,068 --> 00:33:49,172
Yes, it was.

769
00:33:49,275 --> 00:33:51,241
- So you've written
"Send last name."

770
00:33:51,344 --> 00:33:53,620
- He's called Big Poppa.
- Yeah.

771
00:33:53,724 --> 00:33:55,551
So, he's texted you
the last name

772
00:33:55,655 --> 00:33:57,068
- of the alleged victim.
- Right.

773
00:33:57,172 --> 00:33:58,241
You've written, "Added me."

774
00:33:58,344 --> 00:34:00,689
- I was lying about her
adding me on Snapchat.

775
00:34:00,793 --> 00:34:01,758
He's written,
"Work your magic.

776
00:34:01,862 --> 00:34:02,931
"I know you can do this."

777
00:34:03,034 --> 00:34:04,379
Meaning what?

778
00:34:04,482 --> 00:34:05,896
Get to her and talk to her,

779
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,620
and find out what she was doing.

780
00:34:07,724 --> 00:34:09,068
- Get in her head in some way?

781
00:34:09,172 --> 00:34:10,172
Yeah.

782
00:34:11,034 --> 00:34:12,862
[reads messages]

783
00:34:21,724 --> 00:34:23,689
So, uh, is he...

784
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,655
..suggesting that you record
her messages?

785
00:34:27,758 --> 00:34:29,482
- Yes.
- Without her knowing.

786
00:34:30,827 --> 00:34:32,827
A lot of talk
about Harry Potter.

787
00:34:32,931 --> 00:34:34,482
- Extended metaphors.

788
00:34:34,586 --> 00:34:35,931
He, at one point, compared me

789
00:34:36,034 --> 00:34:38,724
to Snape to his Dumbledore.

790
00:34:44,448 --> 00:34:48,000
So, what was the nature
of your relationship?

791
00:34:49,068 --> 00:34:50,758
Um...

792
00:34:50,862 --> 00:34:53,758
It's really weird to describe.

793
00:34:53,862 --> 00:34:57,379
We spoke 24/7, almost.

794
00:34:57,482 --> 00:34:58,827
When we weren't texting
each other,

795
00:34:58,931 --> 00:35:00,724
we were on the phone
almost constantly.

796
00:35:00,827 --> 00:35:02,689
Sometimes nine hours a day
on the phone.

797
00:35:02,793 --> 00:35:06,275
Started to turn into things
like sexting and videos,

798
00:35:06,379 --> 00:35:07,862
pornography.

799
00:35:07,965 --> 00:35:10,758
It always had to be something
that was, um...

800
00:35:10,862 --> 00:35:13,241
..humiliating for him
to get off to it.

801
00:35:13,344 --> 00:35:14,896
- How do you know that?

802
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,482
Because he had me
pick them out for him.

803
00:35:17,586 --> 00:35:18,931
He just told me what he wanted

804
00:35:19,034 --> 00:35:20,241
and I would search for it.

805
00:35:21,206 --> 00:35:22,965
He dominated my life.

806
00:35:23,068 --> 00:35:25,758
- Do you think he was sexually
attracted to you?

807
00:35:25,862 --> 00:35:27,620
- No, I don't. Um...

808
00:35:29,068 --> 00:35:30,827
And we did end up
having a threesome

809
00:35:30,931 --> 00:35:33,413
with someone else
when we were in DC.

810
00:35:33,517 --> 00:35:35,551
- With another... man?
- Woman.

811
00:35:37,482 --> 00:35:39,793
He was rough with both of us.

812
00:35:39,896 --> 00:35:42,206
Things like forcing her
to drink alcohol.

813
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:43,344
He...

814
00:35:44,379 --> 00:35:45,517
..made me...

815
00:35:46,413 --> 00:35:49,206
Made her penetrate me with...

816
00:35:49,793 --> 00:35:51,448
..a sex toy.

817
00:35:51,551 --> 00:35:53,758
And, at one point,
I guess I had been

818
00:35:53,862 --> 00:35:55,448
so intoxicated
that I passed out.

819
00:35:57,379 --> 00:36:01,241
She and I had both at points
said, "no" and "stop".

820
00:36:01,344 --> 00:36:02,689
And she had said her safe word.

821
00:36:02,793 --> 00:36:04,689
I didn't have the luxury
of having one,

822
00:36:04,793 --> 00:36:06,413
but she did.

823
00:36:06,517 --> 00:36:07,862
For me, it was really

824
00:36:07,965 --> 00:36:09,965
an uncomfortable
experience all around.

825
00:36:11,344 --> 00:36:13,137
- Are you OK?
- Yeah.

826
00:36:13,241 --> 00:36:15,034
What are you thinking about?

827
00:36:15,137 --> 00:36:18,275
It, it definitely
makes me feel very guilty.

828
00:36:18,379 --> 00:36:20,448
You know, did you enable
this person...

829
00:36:21,551 --> 00:36:23,379
..to go back to Yale?

830
00:36:23,482 --> 00:36:26,689
Because if I hadn't helped him
write the letter

831
00:36:26,793 --> 00:36:28,448
asking for his suspension
to be lifted,

832
00:36:28,551 --> 00:36:31,034
he wouldn't be allowed back
in a few days.

833
00:36:31,137 --> 00:36:35,034
But he is allowed back,
and that's because of me.

834
00:36:35,137 --> 00:36:38,103
Am I right in thinking that...

835
00:36:38,206 --> 00:36:40,620
..you spoke to him, or you
communicated around the time

836
00:36:40,724 --> 00:36:42,827
that I first interviewed him?

837
00:36:42,931 --> 00:36:44,034
- That's correct.

838
00:36:44,137 --> 00:36:45,517
And did he give
any feedback on that?

839
00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:47,965
- He was very pleased
with himself.

840
00:36:48,068 --> 00:36:50,068
Well, he was in-between
laughs, he was like,

841
00:36:50,172 --> 00:36:51,931
"Oh, yeah, I cried,

842
00:36:52,034 --> 00:36:54,689
"and he's really sold
on that." And he...

843
00:36:54,793 --> 00:36:58,172
He does that a lot,
he cries for people.

844
00:36:58,275 --> 00:37:01,344
- To create an effect?
- Yeah.

845
00:37:01,448 --> 00:37:03,379
And I guess he did that
with you.

846
00:37:07,896 --> 00:37:11,931
- So, what was his attitude
to making the programme?

847
00:37:12,034 --> 00:37:14,275
- He made me watch all of
your documentaries, actually,

848
00:37:14,379 --> 00:37:16,379
and do write-ups of all of them.

849
00:37:18,034 --> 00:37:21,068
Your mannerisms and how
you interviewed people.

850
00:37:21,172 --> 00:37:23,275
- That's pretty weird.
- Yeah.

851
00:37:23,379 --> 00:37:24,724
What was the idea?

852
00:37:24,827 --> 00:37:27,034
- He didn't trust you.

853
00:37:27,137 --> 00:37:29,068
- If he was so mistrustful,

854
00:37:29,172 --> 00:37:32,000
why did he agree
to do the documentary?

855
00:37:32,103 --> 00:37:36,034
- It was an opportunity
for him to spin his story.

856
00:37:36,137 --> 00:37:39,517
This documentary was going to be
his vindication.

857
00:37:46,068 --> 00:37:48,275
Louis Narrates: Jonathan's
allegation about his discomfort

858
00:37:48,379 --> 00:37:52,068
during a three-way
was hard to process.

859
00:37:52,172 --> 00:37:54,379
Later, I heard from his
ex-colleagues at FACE

860
00:37:54,482 --> 00:37:56,517
that he'd made other
unsubstantiated claims

861
00:37:56,620 --> 00:37:58,103
about people there.

862
00:37:59,517 --> 00:38:01,379
Still, the screen grabs
of the messages

863
00:38:01,482 --> 00:38:03,827
directing Jonathan to contact
the alleged victim,

864
00:38:03,931 --> 00:38:05,793
if real, suggested Saif

865
00:38:05,896 --> 00:38:07,620
was a much more
calculating figure

866
00:38:07,724 --> 00:38:09,344
than he'd portrayed to me.

867
00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:22,103
In the meantime,
Saif had also forwarded me

868
00:38:22,206 --> 00:38:24,034
a transcript of his trial.

869
00:38:24,137 --> 00:38:26,000
I'd been struck by the
testimony of witnesses

870
00:38:26,103 --> 00:38:27,517
who said they'd seen

871
00:38:27,620 --> 00:38:29,137
the alleged victim vomiting.

872
00:38:37,034 --> 00:38:38,379
Back at Yale,

873
00:38:38,482 --> 00:38:40,482
with the cloud of suspicion
hanging over him,

874
00:38:40,586 --> 00:38:42,206
Saif had been
assigned accommodation

875
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:44,310
at a hotel off campus.

876
00:38:46,793 --> 00:38:48,482
You were kind enough to forward

877
00:38:48,586 --> 00:38:50,793
some of the trial transcripts...

878
00:38:50,896 --> 00:38:53,586
- Yes.
- ..which I took a look at.

879
00:38:53,689 --> 00:38:55,689
My sense is that these cases

880
00:38:55,793 --> 00:38:57,620
are incredibly difficult
and I think

881
00:38:57,724 --> 00:39:00,068
I'm trying to explore
the possibility that there

882
00:39:00,172 --> 00:39:02,758
are multiple narratives
that fit the facts.

883
00:39:02,862 --> 00:39:04,241
You have...

884
00:39:05,586 --> 00:39:07,103
..a very plausible,

885
00:39:07,206 --> 00:39:08,931
on the face of it, scenario

886
00:39:09,034 --> 00:39:13,172
in which a young woman
who's very light-framed

887
00:39:13,275 --> 00:39:15,172
drinks too much.

888
00:39:15,275 --> 00:39:17,206
Her friend,
who she's drinking alongside,

889
00:39:17,310 --> 00:39:18,413
drinks about the same amount...

890
00:39:18,517 --> 00:39:19,827
How do you know
she's light-framed?

891
00:39:19,931 --> 00:39:21,379
Well, she's about 120lbs.

892
00:39:21,482 --> 00:39:24,206
- Oh, it was in the trial.
- It was in the transcript.

893
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:25,896
Her friend has
to be hospitalised,

894
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,310
who she's drinking alongside,

895
00:39:27,413 --> 00:39:29,655
because she gets
alcohol poisoning

896
00:39:29,758 --> 00:39:31,793
drinking more or less
the same drinks.

897
00:39:31,896 --> 00:39:33,275
It wasn't that
alcohol poisoning.

898
00:39:33,379 --> 00:39:35,275
It was she had to be
hospitalised

899
00:39:35,379 --> 00:39:37,689
because she was out of it.

900
00:39:37,793 --> 00:39:39,172
We don't know why.

901
00:39:39,275 --> 00:39:41,758
Well, then vomits
at least twice.

902
00:39:41,862 --> 00:39:43,482
That's hearsay
and conjecture to say

903
00:39:43,586 --> 00:39:46,551
they're of similar size,
they drank the same stuff.

904
00:39:46,655 --> 00:39:49,827
- There were at least
three witnesses

905
00:39:49,931 --> 00:39:52,517
that testified to the idea
that, um...

906
00:39:52,620 --> 00:39:54,172
OK, uh...

907
00:39:54,275 --> 00:39:58,862
- ..the alleged victim
was incapacitated, right?

908
00:39:58,965 --> 00:40:01,793
Billions of people
believe in specific gods,

909
00:40:01,896 --> 00:40:03,551
does that make them
right or correct?

910
00:40:03,655 --> 00:40:05,034
- And she vomited.

911
00:40:05,137 --> 00:40:06,827
You were next to her when
she vomited at the auditorium...

912
00:40:06,931 --> 00:40:08,896
- Yes.
- ..on her dress.

913
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,137
But, in other words,
that's a plausible scenario.

914
00:40:12,241 --> 00:40:14,551
And, in fact, it's the most
common scenario

915
00:40:14,655 --> 00:40:18,344
in which this type of alleged
campus assault takes place,

916
00:40:18,448 --> 00:40:20,896
in which a young woman
drinks far too much

917
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,965
and becomes blackout drunk.

918
00:40:23,068 --> 00:40:26,275
I guess the main contention
in this argument is...

919
00:40:27,034 --> 00:40:29,517
..the idea that...

920
00:40:31,241 --> 00:40:33,448
..we aren't entertaining
the concept

921
00:40:33,551 --> 00:40:35,586
that she could have lied.

922
00:40:35,689 --> 00:40:38,620
- She lied about being drunk?

923
00:40:38,724 --> 00:40:41,758
- It's like we are
somehow going down

924
00:40:41,862 --> 00:40:43,793
this intellectual debate,

925
00:40:43,896 --> 00:40:47,758
where we're clearly
disregarding evidence.

926
00:40:48,689 --> 00:40:50,137
And...

927
00:40:50,241 --> 00:40:52,620
And only conjecturing
based on...

928
00:40:52,724 --> 00:40:54,034
Well, let's figure out...

929
00:40:54,137 --> 00:40:55,482
- Well, the vomit
isn't evidence?

930
00:40:55,586 --> 00:40:57,724
The three witnesses saying
she was really drunk

931
00:40:57,827 --> 00:40:59,000
isn't evidence?

932
00:40:59,103 --> 00:41:01,689
The fact that people saw her
drinking these drinks

933
00:41:01,793 --> 00:41:04,413
and that her friend had to be
hospitalised for alcohol...

934
00:41:04,517 --> 00:41:05,862
..that's not evidence?

935
00:41:05,965 --> 00:41:09,586
I don't know the reason
for her vomiting

936
00:41:09,689 --> 00:41:11,586
and you're right that oftentimes

937
00:41:11,689 --> 00:41:13,827
it is because of alcohol.

938
00:41:13,931 --> 00:41:17,655
But she wasn't as drunk as...

939
00:41:19,103 --> 00:41:20,103
..she's saying.

940
00:41:24,241 --> 00:41:25,620
Will you come over here,
as well, Saif,

941
00:41:25,724 --> 00:41:26,724
if you're comfortable?

942
00:41:26,827 --> 00:41:27,862
- Course.

943
00:41:29,517 --> 00:41:31,379
So I need to talk to you
about something else

944
00:41:31,482 --> 00:41:32,931
that's come up.

945
00:41:33,034 --> 00:41:34,172
- Of course.

946
00:41:34,931 --> 00:41:35,965
- Um...

947
00:41:37,655 --> 00:41:40,034
Someone reached out to us,

948
00:41:40,137 --> 00:41:43,793
someone from FACE,
called Jonathan Andrews.

949
00:41:45,241 --> 00:41:46,551
- Oh, I see. OK.

950
00:41:46,655 --> 00:41:49,172
- Do you know who I mean?
- Yeah.

951
00:41:49,275 --> 00:41:51,793
He has been removed from FACE.

952
00:41:51,896 --> 00:41:54,551
- Yes, he mentioned that.
- OK.

953
00:41:55,965 --> 00:42:01,379
He made allegations
about you that I...

954
00:42:01,482 --> 00:42:02,931
..I think it's only fair
to put to you.

955
00:42:03,034 --> 00:42:04,586
Mm-hm.

956
00:42:04,689 --> 00:42:09,000
I guess the most concrete one
and the one that therefore

957
00:42:09,103 --> 00:42:13,137
I should put to you first
is that he...

958
00:42:13,241 --> 00:42:17,655
..that you asked him to
friend the alleged victim

959
00:42:17,758 --> 00:42:19,724
on social media
during the trial.

960
00:42:21,068 --> 00:42:22,034
No.

961
00:42:24,793 --> 00:42:25,896
That's crazy.

962
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,620
Does that does that
ring any bells with you?

963
00:42:27,724 --> 00:42:28,689
- No.

964
00:42:28,793 --> 00:42:30,448
- OK, here's the...

965
00:42:35,310 --> 00:42:37,413
Does any of that look familiar?

966
00:42:39,068 --> 00:42:40,689
- OK, what...?

967
00:42:40,793 --> 00:42:41,862
What else?

968
00:42:41,965 --> 00:42:44,551
- Well, so how do you respond
to that one?

969
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,172
- He has this app
on his Samsung phone

970
00:42:51,275 --> 00:42:54,068
where he edits text messages.

971
00:42:54,172 --> 00:42:56,000
- So you're saying
that's not real?

972
00:42:57,379 --> 00:42:59,551
Yeah, I deny that.

973
00:42:59,655 --> 00:43:01,482
It's not my messages.

974
00:43:01,586 --> 00:43:04,862
- OK. He characterized

975
00:43:04,965 --> 00:43:07,172
your relationship
as being almost...

976
00:43:07,275 --> 00:43:09,413
I don't know if romantic
is the term,

977
00:43:09,517 --> 00:43:12,724
but a kind of quasi-sexual
relationship.

978
00:43:13,482 --> 00:43:16,379
- But I am into women.

979
00:43:17,620 --> 00:43:18,793
He is a man.

980
00:43:19,724 --> 00:43:21,241
He contends that on one occasion

981
00:43:21,344 --> 00:43:26,000
you took part in a three-way
sexual session,

982
00:43:26,103 --> 00:43:30,482
the two of you plus a woman,
and that it was, I guess,

983
00:43:30,586 --> 00:43:34,551
abusive and in certain
respects not consensual.

984
00:43:35,034 --> 00:43:36,034
OK.

985
00:43:37,482 --> 00:43:39,862
So, what do I say to that?

986
00:43:39,965 --> 00:43:43,379
Like, why do I have
to confirm or deny,

987
00:43:43,482 --> 00:43:46,517
like, rumours or,
like, allegations?

988
00:43:46,620 --> 00:43:50,586
It's not... This is not a court.
This is...

989
00:43:50,689 --> 00:43:54,206
I mean, obviously I deny
that I've had that sort

990
00:43:54,310 --> 00:43:56,586
of relationship with him.

991
00:43:56,689 --> 00:43:59,275
It's like, the kid is crazy.

992
00:43:59,379 --> 00:44:02,241
- So there was no three-way?

993
00:44:02,344 --> 00:44:07,068
I did not have sexual
relationships with Jon.

994
00:44:07,172 --> 00:44:09,310
- I don't hear you denying
the three-way.

995
00:44:09,413 --> 00:44:11,068
I don't know why
you're focused on that.

996
00:44:11,172 --> 00:44:13,586
Well, because he alleged
that it was abusive

997
00:44:13,689 --> 00:44:15,862
and not in certain
respects consensual.

998
00:44:18,137 --> 00:44:19,206
I deny that.

999
00:44:19,310 --> 00:44:21,551
Like, I deny that that happened.

1000
00:44:26,310 --> 00:44:29,275
- I guess the big picture
is that he's characterising you

1001
00:44:29,379 --> 00:44:33,103
as a cold-blooded
master strategist...

1002
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,275
..who is deeply manipulative

1003
00:44:36,379 --> 00:44:39,000
and totally lacking
in compassion.

1004
00:44:41,137 --> 00:44:44,448
Uh, how does one respond
to that?

1005
00:44:44,551 --> 00:44:47,103
Because, like, that's not true.

1006
00:44:47,206 --> 00:44:49,896
That's fascinating.
Manipulative in what sense?

1007
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,827
- Stage managing your
encounters with us, I guess.

1008
00:44:54,931 --> 00:44:59,517
Crying on your own will,

1009
00:44:59,620 --> 00:45:02,000
more or less, in a fake way,

1010
00:45:02,103 --> 00:45:03,137
showing emotion.

1011
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,482
It's actually really...

1012
00:45:05,586 --> 00:45:07,655
like, I don't know
how one would do that.

1013
00:45:07,758 --> 00:45:09,172
- Cry on command?

1014
00:45:09,275 --> 00:45:10,551
Yeah, I mean, like, onions.

1015
00:45:10,655 --> 00:45:12,068
- Actors can do it.

1016
00:45:12,172 --> 00:45:14,103
- Huh?
- Actors can do it.

1017
00:45:14,206 --> 00:45:15,793
Oh, OK.

1018
00:45:15,896 --> 00:45:17,172
I didn't know that.

1019
00:45:17,275 --> 00:45:19,172
I thought they did, like,
some sort of, like,

1020
00:45:19,275 --> 00:45:22,310
onion or, like, pinch themselves

1021
00:45:22,413 --> 00:45:24,034
or, like, I don't know.

1022
00:45:24,137 --> 00:45:26,206
Help me understand
what's going on here.

1023
00:45:27,517 --> 00:45:31,586
I don't have to spend energy,

1024
00:45:31,689 --> 00:45:33,586
time trying to disprove

1025
00:45:33,689 --> 00:45:36,275
what he's saying or accusing.

1026
00:45:36,379 --> 00:45:39,827
Like, it's not my job to prove
my innocence.

1027
00:45:40,931 --> 00:45:42,793
It's just not... Maybe...

1028
00:45:42,896 --> 00:45:45,137
Maybe that is
what's wrong with me

1029
00:45:45,241 --> 00:45:48,827
in the sense
that I do care about, like,

1030
00:45:48,931 --> 00:45:52,275
you know, others' opinion of me.

1031
00:45:52,379 --> 00:45:55,689
But I don't go out of my way
to quash that.

1032
00:45:55,793 --> 00:45:58,827
I just simply let the truth
surface on its own.

1033
00:46:03,931 --> 00:46:07,310
Louis Narrates: It had been
an uncomfortable exchange.

1034
00:46:07,413 --> 00:46:10,724
I had this strong feeling
that Saif was being tactical

1035
00:46:10,827 --> 00:46:12,758
and not telling me
everything he knew.

1036
00:46:14,206 --> 00:46:16,758
But perhaps most striking
was the steeliness

1037
00:46:16,862 --> 00:46:19,586
with which he'd handled
my questioning,

1038
00:46:19,689 --> 00:46:22,034
his almost unshakable composure.

1039
00:46:27,448 --> 00:46:28,586
- What crime are we describing

1040
00:46:28,689 --> 00:46:30,034
happening in the scene?

1041
00:46:30,137 --> 00:46:31,586
What crime is being set up
in that moment?

1042
00:46:31,689 --> 00:46:32,620
Just yell it out.

1043
00:46:32,724 --> 00:46:33,724
- Voices in crowd: Rape.

1044
00:46:33,827 --> 00:46:34,965
I heard rape and I heard
sexual assault.

1045
00:46:35,068 --> 00:46:36,551
Why would this be a rape
or sexual assault

1046
00:46:36,655 --> 00:46:37,724
by the way I described it?

1047
00:46:37,827 --> 00:46:38,758
Raise your hand,
give me reasons,

1048
00:46:38,862 --> 00:46:40,758
all the way back there. Yes.

1049
00:46:40,862 --> 00:46:42,551
Louis Narrates: One of
the changes of recent years

1050
00:46:42,655 --> 00:46:44,000
is a broader understanding

1051
00:46:44,103 --> 00:46:47,758
of what rape and sexual assault
can look like.

1052
00:46:47,862 --> 00:46:49,241
- Do not do these things.

1053
00:46:49,344 --> 00:46:51,448
Louis Narrates: The issue
has proved controversial,

1054
00:46:51,551 --> 00:46:53,000
some suggesting the new rules

1055
00:46:53,103 --> 00:46:56,068
set unrealistic standards
of consent,

1056
00:46:56,172 --> 00:46:58,482
others seeing it simply
as a long overdue

1057
00:46:58,586 --> 00:47:00,137
recognition of how rape

1058
00:47:00,241 --> 00:47:01,758
often takes place.

1059
00:47:03,241 --> 00:47:04,482
Some of you are looking
at me, going,

1060
00:47:04,586 --> 00:47:06,034
"But, Mike, if I do
just go for it,

1061
00:47:06,137 --> 00:47:08,827
"they do have a choice
to stop me."

1062
00:47:08,931 --> 00:47:09,896
That's not called a choice.

1063
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,275
That's called self-defence.

1064
00:47:13,551 --> 00:47:14,896
It's messed up.

1065
00:47:18,586 --> 00:47:21,241
Louis Narrates: Yale has been
an epicentre of the debate.

1066
00:47:23,689 --> 00:47:25,758
In the last few years,
a fraternity there

1067
00:47:25,862 --> 00:47:28,379
called Delta Kappa Epsilon,
or Deke,

1068
00:47:28,482 --> 00:47:30,413
has featured in ten allegations

1069
00:47:30,517 --> 00:47:32,000
of sexual misconduct.

1070
00:47:36,482 --> 00:47:38,620
One victim was Molly Johnson.

1071
00:47:38,724 --> 00:47:40,379
She'd agreed to speak publicly

1072
00:47:40,482 --> 00:47:42,068
for the first time.

1073
00:47:42,172 --> 00:47:44,344
Thank you for agreeing
to do this, by the way.

1074
00:47:44,448 --> 00:47:46,000
- Really appreciate it.
- Thanks for coming.

1075
00:47:46,103 --> 00:47:47,172
- How are you feeling?
- I'm feeling OK.

1076
00:47:47,275 --> 00:47:48,620
- I'm just a bit nervous.
- Yeah.

1077
00:47:48,724 --> 00:47:50,034
It's just a lot to talk about.

1078
00:47:50,137 --> 00:47:51,137
Sure.

1079
00:47:54,137 --> 00:47:55,517
Louis Narrates: Molly moved
to the UK

1080
00:47:55,620 --> 00:47:56,758
to work with a law firm

1081
00:47:56,862 --> 00:47:58,344
representing women
who have experienced

1082
00:47:58,448 --> 00:48:00,344
harassment and abuse.

1083
00:48:00,448 --> 00:48:03,275
Her boss, Jeff, was sitting in
for moral support.

1084
00:48:04,793 --> 00:48:06,241
- What year was this?
- 2014.

1085
00:48:06,344 --> 00:48:07,965
- '14?
- Yeah, this was...

1086
00:48:08,068 --> 00:48:08,965
- And those are your parents.

1087
00:48:09,068 --> 00:48:11,620
- Yeah, that's my mom, Venetia.

1088
00:48:11,724 --> 00:48:13,965
That's my dad, Tom. There's me.

1089
00:48:14,068 --> 00:48:15,551
And then this is my brother,
Matt.

1090
00:48:16,965 --> 00:48:17,862
That's lovely.

1091
00:48:17,965 --> 00:48:20,482
- Yeah, that was right
when I got there.

1092
00:48:20,586 --> 00:48:22,827
So what was your impression
and experience

1093
00:48:22,931 --> 00:48:25,310
in the first few semesters
at Yale?

1094
00:48:25,413 --> 00:48:28,000
- I loved it.
I felt more at home

1095
00:48:28,103 --> 00:48:29,344
than I think I ever really had.

1096
00:48:29,448 --> 00:48:31,724
I was surrounded by really
nerdy people, so I think

1097
00:48:31,827 --> 00:48:33,275
that was particularly exciting,

1098
00:48:33,379 --> 00:48:35,586
to finally feel like talking
about books all the time

1099
00:48:35,689 --> 00:48:37,827
wasn't really
a weird thing to do.

1100
00:48:37,931 --> 00:48:40,344
- Were you active? Did you
have an active social life

1101
00:48:40,448 --> 00:48:42,172
and lots of friends and going
out? What kind of...?

1102
00:48:42,275 --> 00:48:45,379
- Yeah, no, I like to think
I had a good number of friends.

1103
00:48:45,482 --> 00:48:46,965
We went to a lot
of the football games.

1104
00:48:47,068 --> 00:48:50,482
Didn't really go out that often,

1105
00:48:50,586 --> 00:48:52,172
but, you know, enjoyed
going out with friends

1106
00:48:52,275 --> 00:48:54,655
and never really
went to fraternities.

1107
00:48:54,758 --> 00:48:56,586
- They have parties
at the fraternities,

1108
00:48:56,689 --> 00:48:58,275
is that partly
what they're known for?

1109
00:48:58,379 --> 00:49:00,103
That's, I think,
basically entirely

1110
00:49:00,206 --> 00:49:02,413
what they're known for.

1111
00:49:02,517 --> 00:49:06,137
Louis Narrates: In 2016, Molly
was in her third year at Yale

1112
00:49:06,241 --> 00:49:08,896
and not long out of
a two-year relationship.

1113
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,241
With a friend, she went
to a Christmas party

1114
00:49:11,344 --> 00:49:12,758
at the Deke frat house.

1115
00:49:14,103 --> 00:49:15,758
Are you OK talking about this,

1116
00:49:15,862 --> 00:49:17,379
- what happened next?
- Mm-hm.

1117
00:49:18,551 --> 00:49:19,758
I'll just have some coffee.

1118
00:49:23,758 --> 00:49:25,448
- You go into his room
and you're thinking

1119
00:49:25,551 --> 00:49:26,896
at this point
he's a little pushy,

1120
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,000
but it feels as though
it's more or less

1121
00:49:29,103 --> 00:49:31,655
within acceptable social norms?

1122
00:49:31,758 --> 00:49:33,344
- Yeah. I mean,
there were, no red flags

1123
00:49:33,448 --> 00:49:35,448
had come up in my mind
at that point.

1124
00:49:35,551 --> 00:49:37,034
I think you...

1125
00:49:37,137 --> 00:49:39,034
Which, something I didn't
realise before is that,

1126
00:49:39,137 --> 00:49:40,517
once you're in those
situations,

1127
00:49:40,620 --> 00:49:42,793
you do feel like
you have to do certain things.

1128
00:49:42,896 --> 00:49:46,068
And so, for example, I've had
multiple people tell me

1129
00:49:46,172 --> 00:49:49,344
that they feel like,
if they go into a guy's room,

1130
00:49:49,448 --> 00:49:51,655
they feel like
they have to give him a blowjob

1131
00:49:51,758 --> 00:49:54,448
and so I did that,
thinking that it would be done,

1132
00:49:54,551 --> 00:49:56,551
and he then proceeded
to keep asking

1133
00:49:56,655 --> 00:49:58,344
to have actual
penetrative sex.

1134
00:49:58,448 --> 00:50:00,344
And I told him no,
I didn't want to do that.

1135
00:50:00,448 --> 00:50:04,655
We probably had that
conversation five, six times.

1136
00:50:04,758 --> 00:50:06,206
And he kept
manoeuvring himself

1137
00:50:06,310 --> 00:50:07,965
so that he was on top of me,

1138
00:50:08,068 --> 00:50:10,724
and he is quite large.
Like, I'm pretty tall,

1139
00:50:10,827 --> 00:50:13,448
but he's significantly
larger than me.

1140
00:50:13,551 --> 00:50:15,103
He kept being pushy

1141
00:50:15,206 --> 00:50:16,482
and finally I was like,

1142
00:50:16,586 --> 00:50:18,655
"OK, we can have sex,
but only with a condom."

1143
00:50:18,758 --> 00:50:20,448
And he was like,
"No, no, there's just...

1144
00:50:20,551 --> 00:50:21,896
"There's definitely
not one in this house."

1145
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,310
And I was like, "Well,
OK, then, you know,

1146
00:50:24,413 --> 00:50:25,551
"I'm not gonna have sex
with you,

1147
00:50:25,655 --> 00:50:28,000
"like, because this is
what I have set out."

1148
00:50:29,448 --> 00:50:31,689
And he continued kissing me,

1149
00:50:31,793 --> 00:50:34,413
and all of a sudden his penis

1150
00:50:34,517 --> 00:50:36,034
was inside of me,

1151
00:50:36,137 --> 00:50:38,620
and it was really shocking.

1152
00:50:38,724 --> 00:50:40,758
I think... Like I said,
that was what I felt

1153
00:50:40,862 --> 00:50:42,586
more than anything
is that I just...

1154
00:50:42,689 --> 00:50:45,931
You know, you don't expect
that that's gonna happen

1155
00:50:46,034 --> 00:50:49,206
when you've made your desires
pretty clear.

1156
00:50:49,310 --> 00:50:51,862
- Was it the case that
you were fighting him off

1157
00:50:51,965 --> 00:50:57,068
or was there a point at which
you more or less gave up?

1158
00:50:57,172 --> 00:51:02,172
- So I was trying to move
to avoid him penetrating me,

1159
00:51:02,275 --> 00:51:06,000
and was fighting that,

1160
00:51:06,103 --> 00:51:08,689
but, no, did I punch him
in the face? Of course not.

1161
00:51:08,793 --> 00:51:13,068
Would I ever punch someone
in the face? No.

1162
00:51:13,172 --> 00:51:15,896
- I should reflect the fact
that he has maintained

1163
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,379
and probably still
maintains that...

1164
00:51:20,344 --> 00:51:22,275
..it was a consensual act.

1165
00:51:22,379 --> 00:51:24,724
I think a lot of people, when
they talk about these cases,

1166
00:51:24,827 --> 00:51:26,931
they are like, "Oh, you know,
they're so ambiguous.

1167
00:51:27,034 --> 00:51:29,482
"People aren't
saying what they want."

1168
00:51:29,586 --> 00:51:31,000
But I said what I wanted.

1169
00:51:31,103 --> 00:51:35,000
I said no. I made
my constraints very clear

1170
00:51:35,103 --> 00:51:37,586
and he went against them,
so...

1171
00:51:37,689 --> 00:51:39,379
- So then, the next morning,

1172
00:51:39,482 --> 00:51:42,172
you're attempting to process
what's happened,

1173
00:51:42,275 --> 00:51:43,379
would that be...?

1174
00:51:43,482 --> 00:51:47,448
- Yes, I went to class
and I took a quick shower,

1175
00:51:47,551 --> 00:51:51,068
and I remember, like,
I was texting... Sorry.

1176
00:51:54,068 --> 00:51:55,379
Let me have a sip of coffee.

1177
00:51:57,862 --> 00:52:00,724
I was texting a few friends
at that point

1178
00:52:00,827 --> 00:52:02,586
and that's when I first
called my family.

1179
00:52:02,689 --> 00:52:04,896
I called my brother Matt and...

1180
00:52:06,896 --> 00:52:09,275
He said,
"So you've been raped?"

1181
00:52:10,344 --> 00:52:13,413
And I was just like baulking.

1182
00:52:13,517 --> 00:52:16,517
That was the first time that
someone said that word to me.

1183
00:52:16,620 --> 00:52:19,206
I think it's a really
scary word to use.

1184
00:52:19,310 --> 00:52:21,482
But then once you realise
that, descriptively,

1185
00:52:21,586 --> 00:52:23,620
it matched what happened...

1186
00:52:25,413 --> 00:52:26,517
..it's tough to not use it.

1187
00:52:26,620 --> 00:52:30,758
- So what was the result
of their investigation?

1188
00:52:30,862 --> 00:52:33,172
- They found that
there was an instance

1189
00:52:33,275 --> 00:52:36,275
of sexual misconduct,
and they suspended him for...

1190
00:52:36,379 --> 00:52:37,620
- He was responsible for,

1191
00:52:37,724 --> 00:52:39,862
they called it
penetration without consent.

1192
00:52:39,965 --> 00:52:41,275
- Mm-hm.

1193
00:52:41,379 --> 00:52:42,793
After he was removed
from campus,

1194
00:52:42,896 --> 00:52:44,931
I felt like I could be
a student again.

1195
00:52:45,034 --> 00:52:47,034
That is part of the reason
why the suspension

1196
00:52:47,137 --> 00:52:48,482
meant so much to me because,

1197
00:52:48,586 --> 00:52:52,172
every time I saw
a large man, I was...

1198
00:52:52,275 --> 00:52:54,137
..I would just, like, freeze up

1199
00:52:54,241 --> 00:52:56,275
because I thought
it could be him.

1200
00:52:56,379 --> 00:52:59,172
I guess there are people who...

1201
00:52:59,275 --> 00:53:01,034
..maybe more old-fashioned
people,

1202
00:53:01,137 --> 00:53:04,896
who take the view that,
"Oh, boys will be boys."

1203
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,620
That's the phrase
that gets used.

1204
00:53:06,724 --> 00:53:10,379
And we are attempting
to legislate and penalise

1205
00:53:10,482 --> 00:53:13,586
exuberant partying behaviour.

1206
00:53:13,689 --> 00:53:15,758
Do you think it makes sense
that there is

1207
00:53:15,862 --> 00:53:18,620
a lower standard of evidence

1208
00:53:18,724 --> 00:53:21,241
for the Title IX
investigations

1209
00:53:21,344 --> 00:53:23,172
than there is
for a criminal case?

1210
00:53:23,275 --> 00:53:26,000
They're very tough cases
to prove,

1211
00:53:26,103 --> 00:53:29,517
given that they occur
in such private scenarios

1212
00:53:29,620 --> 00:53:32,413
and don't involve force
oftentimes.

1213
00:53:32,517 --> 00:53:34,896
You almost have to have
this lower standard of evidence

1214
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,724
because, you know, there...

1215
00:53:36,827 --> 00:53:38,689
I didn't come out
of what happened with,

1216
00:53:38,793 --> 00:53:40,758
you know, a broken nose.

1217
00:53:40,862 --> 00:53:43,379
You know, I came out
with, you know,

1218
00:53:43,482 --> 00:53:45,103
a broken sense of security.

1219
00:53:49,137 --> 00:53:50,586
Louis Narrates: Molly's account
was compelling

1220
00:53:50,689 --> 00:53:51,827
and unsettling,

1221
00:53:51,931 --> 00:53:54,137
a striking example
of the traumatic effect

1222
00:53:54,241 --> 00:53:55,689
of a sexual assault

1223
00:53:55,793 --> 00:53:57,620
that might not have been
taken seriously

1224
00:53:57,724 --> 00:53:59,620
in a previous era.

1225
00:53:59,724 --> 00:54:01,413
In fact,
though she'd reported it

1226
00:54:01,517 --> 00:54:02,896
to the police the day after,

1227
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:04,551
and completed a rape kit,

1228
00:54:04,655 --> 00:54:07,068
it did not lead
to charges being brought.

1229
00:54:09,482 --> 00:54:11,310
Since Molly's case,
the Deke frat house

1230
00:54:11,413 --> 00:54:13,103
has been closed down at Yale.

1231
00:54:13,206 --> 00:54:16,172
Her assailant returned
to campus once Molly graduated,

1232
00:54:16,275 --> 00:54:18,620
having served
a 14-month suspension.

1233
00:54:22,896 --> 00:54:24,586
Meanwhile, on Saif's case,

1234
00:54:24,689 --> 00:54:26,758
more information
had come to light.

1235
00:54:29,068 --> 00:54:31,482
The 'Yale Daily News'
had published a story

1236
00:54:31,586 --> 00:54:34,206
based on Jonathan's
allegations.

1237
00:54:34,310 --> 00:54:36,896
It quoted the woman involved
in the three-way.

1238
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,344
She described
being force fed alcohol,

1239
00:54:39,448 --> 00:54:41,068
being hit with a paddle,

1240
00:54:41,172 --> 00:54:42,965
as she put it,
"way too hard",

1241
00:54:43,068 --> 00:54:45,000
and having to use her safe word.

1242
00:54:46,448 --> 00:54:47,517
Based on the article,

1243
00:54:47,620 --> 00:54:49,482
Saif had been suspended again

1244
00:54:49,586 --> 00:54:51,586
and was no longer
attending classes.

1245
00:54:53,689 --> 00:54:56,000
I visited him on the day
he was due to give testimony

1246
00:54:56,103 --> 00:54:58,758
in his original case in front
of the campus committee

1247
00:54:58,862 --> 00:55:00,586
on sexual assault.

1248
00:55:00,689 --> 00:55:02,655
He was with his lawyer, Norm.

1249
00:55:04,965 --> 00:55:07,689
- I was moved last night
by Mr Khan's optimism,

1250
00:55:07,793 --> 00:55:09,655
so, I'm hoping
it's redeemed today.

1251
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:12,482
If you don't stand up...

1252
00:55:13,413 --> 00:55:14,482
..what's the point?

1253
00:55:15,448 --> 00:55:17,034
Let's go. Let's get it done.

1254
00:55:28,724 --> 00:55:30,689
Louis Narrates: With a moment
to myself,

1255
00:55:30,793 --> 00:55:33,413
I reflected on where
I'd got to with Saif

1256
00:55:33,517 --> 00:55:35,000
and observed an attitude to sex

1257
00:55:35,103 --> 00:55:37,068
that was detached
and transactional

1258
00:55:37,172 --> 00:55:39,965
to the point of being
a little chilly.

1259
00:55:40,068 --> 00:55:42,000
And there were aspects
of his version of events

1260
00:55:42,103 --> 00:55:43,620
that simply didn't add up.

1261
00:55:49,379 --> 00:55:53,034
It could still be weeks
before a verdict came down.

1262
00:55:53,137 --> 00:55:54,344
In the meantime,
he would continue

1263
00:55:54,448 --> 00:55:56,068
in his state of limbo,

1264
00:55:56,172 --> 00:55:58,413
unable to study
or stay on campus.

1265
00:56:01,862 --> 00:56:02,965
- Hey, Louis.
- How'd it go?

1266
00:56:05,310 --> 00:56:06,620
- Uh...
- Pretty good.

1267
00:56:06,724 --> 00:56:07,965
- ..a difficult day.

1268
00:56:09,103 --> 00:56:11,413
I saw five people struggle,

1269
00:56:11,517 --> 00:56:12,896
you know, probably beyond
their pay grade,

1270
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,310
beyond their skill set,
to determine what happened here.

1271
00:56:16,413 --> 00:56:20,448
So this is the yellow
brick road, that's Oz,

1272
00:56:20,551 --> 00:56:22,172
and, somewhere
behind the curtain,

1273
00:56:22,275 --> 00:56:24,310
somebody is hiding
and making a decision.

1274
00:56:24,413 --> 00:56:27,379
And it's never going to be
transparent to the public.

1275
00:56:27,482 --> 00:56:29,448
It was frustrating,
very frustrating.

1276
00:56:30,620 --> 00:56:31,758
I'm glad it's over.

1277
00:56:35,793 --> 00:56:38,275
Louis Narrates: It had been
a long and strange journey.

1278
00:56:39,448 --> 00:56:40,862
I'd heard that Saif's
alleged victim

1279
00:56:40,965 --> 00:56:43,827
had testified via Skype.

1280
00:56:43,931 --> 00:56:46,965
I thought about everything
she must have been through

1281
00:56:47,068 --> 00:56:49,241
and alongside that
was a sense of perplexity

1282
00:56:49,344 --> 00:56:50,931
at the figure of Saif.

1283
00:56:52,206 --> 00:56:53,724
The stamina he had shown

1284
00:56:53,827 --> 00:56:56,517
in weathering so much
negative attention

1285
00:56:56,620 --> 00:56:58,586
and his utter faith
in his own ability

1286
00:56:58,689 --> 00:57:01,413
to outsmart the allegations
against him.

1287
00:57:03,931 --> 00:57:06,448
- Did you say that
you read a poem?

1288
00:57:06,551 --> 00:57:10,068
- Yeah, I started my opening
statement with a poem,

1289
00:57:10,172 --> 00:57:11,862
the 'Invictus'.

1290
00:57:11,965 --> 00:57:13,724
Why did you do that?

1291
00:57:13,827 --> 00:57:18,551
- They were good words that
communicated my feelings

1292
00:57:18,655 --> 00:57:24,000
and I first heard Obama
say them at Mandela's death.

1293
00:57:25,655 --> 00:57:29,379
I said, "In the fell clutch
of circumstance

1294
00:57:29,482 --> 00:57:32,413
"I have not winced
nor cried aloud.

1295
00:57:32,517 --> 00:57:34,482
"Under the bludgeonings
of chance

1296
00:57:34,586 --> 00:57:37,413
"My head is bloody,
but unbowed.

1297
00:57:38,758 --> 00:57:41,896
"It matters not
how straight the gate,

1298
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,551
"How charged with punishments
the scroll..."

1299
00:57:58,344 --> 00:57:59,724
Louis Narrates: It is
almost certain

1300
00:57:59,827 --> 00:58:01,689
that President Trump's
Education Secretary,

1301
00:58:01,793 --> 00:58:02,862
Betsy DeVos,

1302
00:58:02,965 --> 00:58:05,034
will make changes
to the federal guidelines

1303
00:58:05,137 --> 00:58:06,448
for how sexual assault

1304
00:58:06,551 --> 00:58:09,862
is investigated on US campuses,

1305
00:58:09,965 --> 00:58:13,172
attempting to shore up
the rights of the accused,

1306
00:58:13,275 --> 00:58:14,586
requiring, among other things,

1307
00:58:14,689 --> 00:58:16,517
a higher standard of proof.

1308
00:58:17,620 --> 00:58:19,413
It's notable that some
of these changes

1309
00:58:19,517 --> 00:58:21,655
have received cross-party
support.

1310
00:58:25,413 --> 00:58:29,620
I had come to see the system
as flawed, but also necessary,

1311
00:58:29,724 --> 00:58:31,275
an all too human attempt

1312
00:58:31,379 --> 00:58:34,275
to recognise the rights
of victims,

1313
00:58:34,379 --> 00:58:35,931
and bring some safety

1314
00:58:36,034 --> 00:58:39,034
to the most intimate frontier
of the bedroom.

1315
00:59:40,862 --> 00:59:42,896
Captioned by Ai-Media
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