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[Kidman] Women have compelling stories,
and women are compelling creators.
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[Amanat] There was something about the
superhero world that just felt like me.
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But I did not look like any of the girls
and the women that were featured in there.
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[Magruder] This whole notion
that you can identify with a character,
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I couldn't really understand.
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I can't even imagine
the impact that might've had.
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I need to write women,
'cause there aren't enough women,
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and there aren't enough women
writing women.
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I thought to myself,
"I wanna read a story that's about a girl
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because if it's about a girl
then the girl can't lose."
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People are drawn to characters
where something about them resonates.
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[Amanat] Superheroes are supposed to be
these positive ideals.
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Those are the images we internalize
and we compare ourselves to.
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The hardest thing
is choosing to look like yourself.
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[Amanat] I grew up in a small town
in New Jersey.
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I had three older brothers,
a really big family,
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and we were probably
the only Muslim family in that town.
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It was
a predominantly Caucasian community.
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It was a great childhood, but it was still
one where I was a little bit shy
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and definitely very awkward
and definitely felt like an outsider
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in so many different ways.
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I very much was an introvert.
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I was in my room drawing,
writing my own stories,
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playing with my Barbies
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very much in my own world,
in my own imagination.
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I tried to play with my cousins
and my brothers a lot.
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You know, I was the girl,
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and I couldn't, sort of,
do the play-fighting that they would do,
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and I couldn't really tackle
like they would be doing.
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So they'd say that I could be on the side
and be the cheerleader.
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And that made me real mad.
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I got into the superhero world
and the comics world through my brothers,
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mainly my oldest brother,
who was a big sci-fi fan, big comics fan.
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And he had a collection of comics.
Like, just stacks and stacks of comics.
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There was something
about the superhero world.
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As fantastic and high-octane they are,
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there was something about it
that just felt so much like me.
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I discovered the X-Men cartoon
in the '90s,
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which was, like, the big awakening for me.
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It was about these young people
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who were still coming into themselves,
figuring out who they were,
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but also had these struggles,
and they found a way
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to make their insecurities
into these really incredible strengths.
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And when I was very young, that's
something that deeply connected to me.
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I didn't realize at that point that it was
a thing that really boys only liked.
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I just loved
that they were cool characters
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with really amazing stories
that I connected with.
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[Robbins] Starting in the late '40s,
my girlfriends and I all read comics.
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All kids read comics.
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So, as soon as I was old enough
to cross two streets
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with my allowance clutched in my hand,
I would go to the corner candy store.
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And they had a rack that said,
"Hey, Kids! Comics!"
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And I basically bought any comic
that had a girl on the cover.
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But not a girl being rescued by a guy,
but a girl in command.
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A girl starring on the cover.
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There were so many comics to choose from.
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Sometimes when my mother
would go to the store
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I would read comics
off of the spinner racks.
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So I would read cowboy comics
and the occasional Superman.
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But I found that Lois Lane irritated me
because she was constantly trying to prove
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that Clark Kent was Superman instead of
getting out and doing reporter things.
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There were 70 million regular comic book
readers in the late 1940s.
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That was over half of the US population
were reading comic books,
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and they were reading
a lot of comic books.
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And the readership was really
50-50 male-female at that point.
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And this was largely because the genres
were really, really wide-ranging.
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[Kidman] Women played a significant role
in the workforce in the 1940s,
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particularly during World War II.
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This country relied on the labor of women
to keep the home front moving forward.
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And you see that in comic books as well.
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[Robbins] There were amazing women
of comics but who nobody knew about
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because when the guys
write books about comics,
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they just wanna write about Stan Lee
and Jack Kirby and the Hulk.
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Timely Comics
was what became Marvel Comics,
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and they had a whole group
of superheroines
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who each had their own title.
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Tarpé Mills was a newspaper cartoonist,
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and she drew
the first really important superheroine,
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costumed action heroine, Miss Fury.
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Marla Drake was a socialite
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who puts on this panther skin
and becomes Miss Fury.
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It's very film noir, and Marla Drake
looked exactly like Tarpé Mills.
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She put herself into her strip.
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It was like her own fantasy life.
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It's kind of a cliché to say
it opened a new world to me, but it did.
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It opened a world to me.
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Then the industry crashed,
pretty intensely, in 1954 and 1955.
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Comic books were accused
of endangering America's youth.
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The only way that you can
really stop this kind of thing
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is to arouse public opinion.
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If the people in a section decide
they don't want
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these horror and crime comic books sold,
read by their children,
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if they will become adamant and vigorous
about it, that is the best guarantee.
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So they brought
comic books up in front of Congress.
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There were hearings.
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[radio host] Good afternoon
from the federal courthouse
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in Foley Square in Downtown Manhattan.
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WNYC is about to bring you the afternoon
session of a Senate subcommittee
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00:08:02,753 --> 00:08:05,756
on juvenile delinquency
investigating the effect of comic books
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on the increased rate of juvenile crime.
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[Kidman] And after that, a code
was created to restrict comic books.
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And that is pretty much
when everything changed.
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Readership dropped by about half
over the course of just a single year.
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And the industry was really struggling
to figure out what to do from there.
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These publishers
had to figure out how to stay afloat.
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And because Marvel
had its own distribution company,
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they were able to
actually stay in the business
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longer than a lot of these other companies
who were falling left and right.
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They had to think about which comic books
were the most important to them
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and the most likely to succeed.
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So they decided to focus
on a demographic they could count on,
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and this ended up being
young or teenage boys.
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And they found tremendous success
with superheroes.
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And as they focused on
these Silver Age superheroes,
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all of these other genres
gradually started to fall away.
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I like Spider-Man and Avengers,
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Flash, Iron Man and Hulk.
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They're nice comics.
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[Magruder] I was always that kid in school
that was drawing.
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It was something that became
a vocation for me.
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My mother took us to the library,
like, all the time,
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and I would just get out stacks and stacks
of drawing books,
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and those were instrumental for me
in learning how to draw.
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It was such a fight when I was younger
and I wanted to take this art path,
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and my mother really didn't get it.
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And she was also experiencing
a lot of pressure from our community,
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00:10:00,121 --> 00:10:05,251
from friends and family who didn't
understand and who were telling her like,
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00:10:05,334 --> 00:10:09,296
"When are you gonna make Nilah stop
with this art hobby of hers?"
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00:10:10,131 --> 00:10:13,884
So we fought a lot
leading up to high school graduation.
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You know, my mother wanted me to major in
accounting or computer programming,
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but that first year after I graduated,
I didn't go to college,
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because I was so adamant
that I had to get into an art program.
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Eventually I got into Ringling College,
into their computer animation program.
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And it afforded me
the opportunity to do things with art
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I'd never done before,
and it was pretty cool.
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But I didn't actually start reading comics
until manga started coming over.
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And as much as I loved them,
I noticed this trend
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in that there's usually
one female character,
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and if she were to fight,
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if she were to go up against a guy,
specifically, she would always lose.
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00:11:01,015 --> 00:11:04,602
And the expectation for a woman in comics
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00:11:04,685 --> 00:11:10,733
is that they're bubbly
and likable and upbeat,
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so that when the male character
is experiencing doubt
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and when the male character
is having all his angst and feelings,
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it's the woman who supports him
and helps him to save the day or whatever.
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So, you don't get to see very many
female characters be vulnerable
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and be unlikable and have depth like that.
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And that's, kind of, what interests me
about female characters.
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And I thought to myself,
"I wanna read a story like these
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that's about a girl because if it's
about a girl then the girl can't lose."
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["It Would Take A Miracle"
by Otis Mable playing]
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Twenty-five years ago, 1961.
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Now there's a notable year.
John Kennedy became president.
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00:12:25,558 --> 00:12:28,853
Alan Shepard became
the first American in space.
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00:12:28,936 --> 00:12:33,607
The bikini became fashionable,
and Marvel Comics made its debut.
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[Duffy] There's the story
that Stan's wife, Joan, said to him,
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"Stan, why don't you just write something
for yourself that you're going to enjoy?"
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00:12:46,829 --> 00:12:50,791
And that's when Stan first did
the Fantastic Four.
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00:12:52,293 --> 00:12:56,464
[Robbins] The early '60s
was when the Marvel renaissance happened,
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00:12:56,547 --> 00:13:00,176
with these new superheroes
who really were new and amazing.
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You know, there had never been superheroes
who had issues, who had problems before.
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00:13:05,473 --> 00:13:10,019
I mean, Spider-Man's costume would rip,
and he would have to sew it up by hand.
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00:13:10,102 --> 00:13:12,813
I loved the Human Torch
because he was a teenager,
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he drove hot cars, he was blonde,
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Jack Kirby made him look crazy,
crazy handsome,
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00:13:21,739 --> 00:13:24,158
and he was just somebody
I could relate to more,
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plus being able to fly
and have fire powers.
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So cool.
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00:13:28,913 --> 00:13:32,291
I had no idea
they were considered to be for boys.
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That was quite a shock to me.
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When I got to a teenager
and girls would be like,
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"Oh, you have to talk to my boyfriend.
He likes comics."
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I was like,
"Well, why can't I talk to you?"
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"Well, I don't read comics."
It's like, "Yeesh."
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And, uh, it didn't occur to me,
even when I got into the business,
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that I was getting into a field
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where almost none
of the creator credits were girls.
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There was a token woman here,
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there was somebody's girlfriend there,
there was somebody's wife there,
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00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,030
but women weren't doing this.
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[Steinberg] Oh, Stan.
Do you have a few minutes?
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[Lee] For our fabulous gal Friday, sure.
Say hello to the fans, Flo Steinberg.
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00:14:10,788 --> 00:14:13,416
[Steinberg] Hello, fans.
It's very nice to meet you.
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00:14:13,499 --> 00:14:16,585
As Marvel's corresponding secretary,
I feel as though
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I know most of you from your letters.
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[Robbins] Flo was there
from the beginning.
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00:14:21,757 --> 00:14:25,261
Everyone adored Flo,
and she was like a fixture.
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00:14:25,344 --> 00:14:28,848
She would personally answer the letters.
She took care of all that.
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00:14:29,390 --> 00:14:33,310
With her adorably unique voice
and her absolutely charming manner,
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00:14:33,394 --> 00:14:34,854
everyone loved Flo.
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00:14:34,937 --> 00:14:37,940
She lives forever
in the memory of Marvel fans.
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00:14:38,524 --> 00:14:41,652
So everyone knew Fabulous Flo Steinberg.
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[Duffy] Back then, there were only
a handful of women in comics.
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There were none of them writing or drawing
any regular superhero books at the time.
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00:14:54,915 --> 00:14:58,669
You know, Paty Cockrum and Marie Severin,
two of the greatest artists,
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00:14:58,753 --> 00:15:01,422
and they were both
doing production art in the office,
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00:15:01,505 --> 00:15:04,467
instead of out there
on regular series where they belonged.
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00:15:06,010 --> 00:15:08,512
[Robbins] You know, they called her--
I don't know what they called her,
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Mirthful Marie,
or something awful like that,
200
00:15:10,931 --> 00:15:15,227
and she did always put on
this happy face, and she didn't push.
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00:15:15,311 --> 00:15:18,939
She would not have
even drawn comics for them.
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00:15:19,023 --> 00:15:25,863
She was just doing erasing
and fixing of pages until 1966,
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00:15:26,322 --> 00:15:31,160
when Esquire wanted to write an article
and they needed someone to illustrate it,
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00:15:31,243 --> 00:15:33,579
and all the guys were too busy
drawing the Hulk.
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00:15:33,662 --> 00:15:35,998
So Marie said, "I'll do it."
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00:15:36,082 --> 00:15:39,293
And when it came out,
Martin Goodman saw it and said,
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00:15:39,377 --> 00:15:42,922
"Hey, she can draw. Stan, give her work."
And he did.
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She never pushed.
She never asked for work.
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[Brigman] Marie was really versatile,
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and I think she did
a lot of design work for Marvel
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that she's never really
been given credit for.
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00:15:55,267 --> 00:15:59,105
And I think she was just
too busy doing what she did
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to really be concerned
with any kind of gender politics.
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00:16:05,778 --> 00:16:08,489
Even if there had been gender politics,
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00:16:08,572 --> 00:16:12,118
I think she would've just been like,
"Eh. I've got deadlines."
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00:16:14,537 --> 00:16:17,957
[Simonson]
Marie was just extraordinarily talented.
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00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,545
It's mind-boggling to think about
the number of characters she worked on.
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00:16:31,554 --> 00:16:33,639
What sort of career is this
for a grown woman?
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00:16:33,723 --> 00:16:37,143
It's a riot. It keeps me young. [laughs]
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Getting the idea is easy.
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00:16:48,863 --> 00:16:52,950
The tough thing is saying to yourself,
"Okay, I've got an idea for a character,
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00:16:53,576 --> 00:16:58,289
but now what can I do to this character
to make the readers care about 'em?
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00:16:58,372 --> 00:17:00,124
What haven't we done?"
224
00:17:00,207 --> 00:17:04,295
Publishers were trying to do
whatever they could to build an audience.
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00:17:04,378 --> 00:17:06,172
So there were lots of experiments,
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00:17:06,255 --> 00:17:09,675
lots of efforts to reach out
to different audiences,
227
00:17:09,759 --> 00:17:11,427
to do different kinds of genres.
228
00:17:14,013 --> 00:17:17,516
[Duffy] In the 1970s,
comics were in the doldrums.
229
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,603
The companies were not
really supporting the comics.
230
00:17:20,686 --> 00:17:22,646
There was no money to be had,
231
00:17:22,730 --> 00:17:27,902
and the only people doing them were people
who just loved comic books so much.
232
00:17:28,903 --> 00:17:30,321
[Robbins] In the early '70s,
233
00:17:30,404 --> 00:17:35,159
Stan Lee did make
an attempt to bring back superheroines.
234
00:17:35,242 --> 00:17:37,244
And most of the writers were women.
235
00:17:37,328 --> 00:17:39,455
He did The Claws of the Cat.
236
00:17:40,164 --> 00:17:42,666
And, oh, my God, Night Nurse.
237
00:17:44,001 --> 00:17:46,462
And he did Shanna the She-Devil,
238
00:17:46,545 --> 00:17:51,967
and also, um, there was one other--
Oh, Ms. Marvel, of course.
239
00:18:04,271 --> 00:18:06,023
[DeConnick] All right, so Carol Danvers.
240
00:18:06,107 --> 00:18:12,029
So 1968, Carol Danvers makes her first
appearance in Marvel Superheroes #13.
241
00:18:12,571 --> 00:18:18,411
She is a supporting character that
later moves to the Captain Marvel title.
242
00:18:19,954 --> 00:18:23,499
She is a woman security officer
for the air force,
243
00:18:23,582 --> 00:18:27,211
and she stays that way
for a number of years.
244
00:18:27,294 --> 00:18:32,925
And then, in 1977,
Gerry Conway and his then wife, Carla,
245
00:18:33,008 --> 00:18:38,889
launched Ms. Marvel #1
which elevated Carol Danvers.
246
00:18:42,059 --> 00:18:48,691
Carol is caught in the blast
of a Kree Psyche-Magnitron machine,
247
00:18:48,774 --> 00:18:51,444
and it transfers
the powers of Captain Marvel
248
00:18:51,527 --> 00:18:55,031
into the body of Carol Danvers,
and she becomes Ms. Marvel.
249
00:18:55,114 --> 00:19:01,245
And so she has all of his power set
but also amnesia and a "seventh sense,"
250
00:19:01,328 --> 00:19:02,621
which is my favorite.
251
00:19:02,705 --> 00:19:04,790
I think it was supposed
to be women's intuition.
252
00:19:04,874 --> 00:19:06,959
We just kinda let it die away.
253
00:19:07,918 --> 00:19:11,630
For Carol, her formative wound was
254
00:19:11,714 --> 00:19:18,137
her dad is a construction foreman,
and he has two older boys and her,
255
00:19:18,220 --> 00:19:21,682
and, basically, can afford to send
two of them to college
256
00:19:21,766 --> 00:19:24,268
and figures Carol's just gonna
get married anyway,
257
00:19:24,351 --> 00:19:25,895
and he doesn't wanna waste the money.
258
00:19:25,978 --> 00:19:29,982
And so, she actually joins the Service
in order to get college paid for,
259
00:19:30,066 --> 00:19:32,568
and that's where she kind of
finds her agency.
260
00:19:32,651 --> 00:19:34,153
That's where she learns to fly.
261
00:19:34,236 --> 00:19:38,616
And so, that was really good
because the thing about Carol is just--
262
00:19:38,699 --> 00:19:40,451
She's like,
"Higher, faster, further", right?
263
00:19:40,534 --> 00:19:42,286
She's always pushing herself.
264
00:19:42,370 --> 00:19:43,913
Reach always exceeds grasp.
265
00:19:43,996 --> 00:19:49,794
She always wants to do more than she can,
and she's trying to prove to her dad
266
00:19:49,877 --> 00:19:53,214
that she's just as worthy as the boys.
267
00:20:00,971 --> 00:20:05,309
When I got out of college and was ready
to look for that all-important first job,
268
00:20:05,393 --> 00:20:07,770
the people at Marvel knew
perfectly well who I was
269
00:20:07,853 --> 00:20:10,523
because I was
an obnoxious letter-column person
270
00:20:10,606 --> 00:20:13,609
who was always dying to tell them
how to do their jobs better.
271
00:20:17,571 --> 00:20:22,493
They hired me in December of 1976, which
was six months after I got out of college.
272
00:20:22,576 --> 00:20:26,956
What they needed was somebody to return
artwork to the artists, and I was like,
273
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:29,834
"Job at Marvel Comics?
Ding, ding, ding, ding! Sold."
274
00:20:30,418 --> 00:20:34,463
So while I was doing art returns,
I wrote some little five-page stories
275
00:20:34,547 --> 00:20:38,092
that were auditions for me,
and I would get my try at writing.
276
00:20:38,175 --> 00:20:40,553
And then one of
the assistant editors left,
277
00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:43,931
and the job opened up,
and I kinda slid into it.
278
00:20:45,766 --> 00:20:49,311
The agreement is always an
assistant editor will get to write a book.
279
00:20:49,395 --> 00:20:52,064
And, somehow, that was never me.
280
00:20:54,066 --> 00:20:54,984
Finally, when I was like,
281
00:20:55,067 --> 00:20:58,029
"Hey, there are assistant editors
you've hired since me
282
00:20:58,112 --> 00:21:00,948
who've got one or two books
a month to write each.
283
00:21:01,032 --> 00:21:02,700
When am I gonna get mine?"
284
00:21:02,783 --> 00:21:04,660
And that day they said,
285
00:21:04,744 --> 00:21:07,413
"Well, who's the most
over-committed writer we have?
286
00:21:07,496 --> 00:21:09,081
Oh, that would be Chris Claremont."
287
00:21:09,165 --> 00:21:10,791
"Well, Chris is writing Ms. Marvel.
288
00:21:10,875 --> 00:21:13,085
So, Jo, how about
if you take over Ms. Marvel?"
289
00:21:13,169 --> 00:21:15,296
And Chris said,
290
00:21:15,379 --> 00:21:17,923
"You're not getting Ms. Marvel
away from me. I love her.
291
00:21:18,007 --> 00:21:20,593
Give Jo Power Man and Iron Fist."
292
00:21:20,676 --> 00:21:23,846
And I was like, "Suits me fine."
293
00:21:23,929 --> 00:21:25,723
"Ms. Marvel I could take or leave,
294
00:21:25,806 --> 00:21:29,143
I love her costume, but I've never
related to her as a character.
295
00:21:29,226 --> 00:21:31,729
But Power Man and Iron Fist
I'm crazy about.
296
00:21:31,812 --> 00:21:34,857
I loved Bruce Lee.
I love big, strong, tough guys.
297
00:21:34,940 --> 00:21:37,985
I never missed an issue
of either of their books when I was a fan.
298
00:21:38,069 --> 00:21:39,737
Give me Power Man and Iron Fist."
299
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,491
Under my run, it became quite successful.
300
00:21:43,574 --> 00:21:47,495
It went from near cancellations bimonthly
to healthy monthly.
301
00:21:47,578 --> 00:21:51,707
And, suddenly, Power Man and Iron Fist
was maybe better handled by somebody else.
302
00:21:51,791 --> 00:21:53,876
So, as a result,
after Power Man and Iron Fist,
303
00:21:53,959 --> 00:21:56,796
suddenly it's like,
"Jo, Star Wars looks like it's moribund.
304
00:21:56,879 --> 00:21:58,422
How about if you do that next?"
305
00:21:59,298 --> 00:22:03,219
But how I coped was by
never trying to get near anything
306
00:22:03,302 --> 00:22:07,098
that was some boy's childhood best friend
he would kill me if I tried to write.
307
00:22:13,187 --> 00:22:15,439
-[Amanat's mother] Hello, Sana.
-Oh, my God!
308
00:22:15,523 --> 00:22:17,191
-We are moving in.
-Oh, my...
309
00:22:17,274 --> 00:22:19,527
-Are you ready for us?
-I don't want you to move in.
310
00:22:19,610 --> 00:22:20,569
Look at the luggage.
311
00:22:20,653 --> 00:22:21,987
Why did you bring so much?
312
00:22:22,071 --> 00:22:25,449
-I told you I had everything. Come.
-No, it's, uh... [stammers]
313
00:22:25,533 --> 00:22:27,201
-You know... Wisdom.
-We have plans.
314
00:22:27,284 --> 00:22:28,119
Okay.
315
00:22:28,202 --> 00:22:30,287
And this is all your pictures...
316
00:22:30,371 --> 00:22:31,956
-Oh, wow.
-Hopefully, hopefully.
317
00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:34,709
All right, so, Abbu,
do you want tea or something?
318
00:22:35,376 --> 00:22:37,294
[Amanat's father] Anything that you give.
319
00:22:38,379 --> 00:22:41,048
-[Amanat] Can you tell? Where is that?
-Brilliance of the Seas. This was in...
320
00:22:41,132 --> 00:22:44,635
-Mediterranean, some years ago.
-Okay. You have chance here to talk a lot.
321
00:22:44,719 --> 00:22:46,887
So I thought I'll put this picture here
so she can--
322
00:22:46,971 --> 00:22:49,765
She put our picture
of the wedding day over there.
323
00:22:54,103 --> 00:22:57,606
[Amanat's mother] We grew up in
a very international environment in India,
324
00:22:57,690 --> 00:22:59,066
in Bombay.
325
00:22:59,150 --> 00:23:03,529
You know, this was just when
the riots of partitions were just over.
326
00:23:03,612 --> 00:23:08,492
It was very multicultural,
very British-style everything.
327
00:23:08,576 --> 00:23:11,203
That's how we grew up. Accepting everyone.
328
00:23:12,121 --> 00:23:14,540
I think I somehow, directly, indirectly,
329
00:23:14,623 --> 00:23:19,462
I passed on to my children in story forms,
330
00:23:19,545 --> 00:23:22,214
know your identity yet appreciate others.
331
00:23:25,676 --> 00:23:26,927
[Amanat] There was a moment.
332
00:23:27,011 --> 00:23:30,347
It was the first World Trade Center
bombing back in the '90s.
333
00:23:30,765 --> 00:23:34,477
And, afterwards, this kid came up to me,
and he was just like,
334
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,189
"Hey, can you tell your people
to stop bombing us?"
335
00:23:38,647 --> 00:23:44,445
And I was so confused, 'cause I'm like,
"Who? My what? Who are you talking about?"
336
00:23:44,528 --> 00:23:47,531
And I realized that there was
337
00:23:47,615 --> 00:23:51,452
an actual issue
when it came to Muslims in the West,
338
00:23:51,535 --> 00:23:52,578
at a very young age.
339
00:23:52,661 --> 00:23:55,956
I must've been 11 at that point,
maybe 12. Eleven or 12.
340
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,460
And I think that was the moment
where I was like, "Oh, I am different.
341
00:23:59,543 --> 00:24:03,631
And not only am I different,
I think that people don't like it.
342
00:24:03,714 --> 00:24:07,134
I think that people don't like
that I am who I am."
343
00:24:18,479 --> 00:24:22,316
[Amanat] I went into college
thinking I was going to be a journalist
344
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,110
or be an international lawyer.
345
00:24:24,193 --> 00:24:28,197
I was gonna change the world,
heal the divide between the East and West.
346
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,118
I had this really innate desire
to change people's perceptions
347
00:24:32,201 --> 00:24:34,328
and change
people's perceptions of Muslims,
348
00:24:34,412 --> 00:24:38,249
and I thought the only way to do that
was if I was a part of the media
349
00:24:38,332 --> 00:24:40,793
and I was telling the stories
and building the narrative.
350
00:24:40,876 --> 00:24:42,878
[food sizzling]
351
00:24:45,214 --> 00:24:48,426
My parents were always very supportive
of everything that I wanted to do.
352
00:24:48,509 --> 00:24:52,430
I think my mother has always been like,
"Try to do something practical."
353
00:24:52,513 --> 00:24:54,098
She was the one who had told me,
354
00:24:54,181 --> 00:24:56,267
"Don't depend on a man. Get a job."
355
00:24:56,350 --> 00:24:59,603
Which is the polar opposite of probably
every South Asian mother out there.
356
00:25:00,813 --> 00:25:03,733
And my father was always
more about the broad mission statement of
357
00:25:03,816 --> 00:25:06,986
always doing something good,
whatever it is that you're working on.
358
00:25:07,069 --> 00:25:08,237
And so I thought,
359
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,615
"Okay, be an international lawyer.
Start affecting policy in a real way."
360
00:25:13,617 --> 00:25:15,786
I was studying for the LSAT,
and I'm like, I'm doing something
361
00:25:15,870 --> 00:25:21,625
that I think I have to do to be able
to make these big, impactful changes,
362
00:25:21,709 --> 00:25:24,086
but it's fundamentally not who I am.
363
00:25:25,296 --> 00:25:26,130
Thank you.
364
00:25:26,213 --> 00:25:31,135
I got a job at a small indie comics
company called Virgin Comics.
365
00:25:31,218 --> 00:25:34,305
My first job was technically, like,
editorial assistant.
366
00:25:35,514 --> 00:25:37,349
I had a tough experience because
367
00:25:37,433 --> 00:25:41,437
I genuinely did not feel like
I was good at it.
368
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,523
And a lot of it was because
some of the feedback
369
00:25:44,607 --> 00:25:46,776
I had gotten by people in the community,
370
00:25:46,859 --> 00:25:50,363
because I didn't grow up reading comics
the way that they had
371
00:25:50,446 --> 00:25:56,744
or I didn't have this sort of comics IQ
that was necessary to be a comics editor,
372
00:25:56,827 --> 00:25:59,747
perhaps I didn't have what it takes
to be a good editor.
373
00:25:59,830 --> 00:26:02,875
And that was hard
because I internalized that a lot,
374
00:26:02,958 --> 00:26:04,752
because I didn't know
if I had what it took.
375
00:26:04,835 --> 00:26:06,629
I didn't read everything.
I didn't know everything.
376
00:26:06,712 --> 00:26:10,299
And quite frankly, I wasn't sure
if I wanted to stay in comics.
377
00:26:12,259 --> 00:26:15,763
MacKenzie Cadenhead is who mentored me
in my first job in comics,
378
00:26:15,846 --> 00:26:18,140
and she really wanted me
to stay in the industry.
379
00:26:18,224 --> 00:26:21,268
She's like, "You just have
a natural inclination to storytelling,
380
00:26:21,352 --> 00:26:24,021
to visual storytelling,
to comic book storytelling,
381
00:26:24,105 --> 00:26:27,900
that I haven't really seen before,
and it would be such a waste for you
382
00:26:27,983 --> 00:26:30,778
to just do away with that
and forget about it."
383
00:26:31,112 --> 00:26:35,241
Her husband, Dan Buckley, at the time he
was publisher at Marvel,
384
00:26:35,324 --> 00:26:38,703
offered me a job, but I told him.
385
00:26:38,786 --> 00:26:43,791
So I said, "Look, I'm a little nervous
because I don't think I can do
386
00:26:43,874 --> 00:26:46,627
what some of the editors
who've been around forever can do.
387
00:26:46,711 --> 00:26:48,879
I don't know everything.
I don't know if I'm gonna be able
388
00:26:48,963 --> 00:26:50,548
to be a strong enough editor."
389
00:26:50,631 --> 00:26:54,927
And he's like, "Look,
that is totally fine with us
390
00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:58,347
because you're gonna
give us something completely different
391
00:26:58,431 --> 00:27:00,975
than someone who's been around
for 20 years,
392
00:27:01,058 --> 00:27:03,227
who's edited comics for 15 years.
393
00:27:03,310 --> 00:27:07,732
You will add a different kind of voice
to Marvel Comics' editorial,
394
00:27:07,815 --> 00:27:09,483
and that's exactly what we need."
395
00:27:16,615 --> 00:27:20,036
And so, I had that support from the get-go
and really kind of decided,
396
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,788
"Okay, let me do this
and see where it takes me."
397
00:27:26,667 --> 00:27:30,296
And I couldn't have imagined
where it took me. [chuckles]
398
00:27:36,010 --> 00:27:37,803
[woman] Who's that that you're drawing
right now?
399
00:27:37,887 --> 00:27:38,971
[Magruder] Abbie.
400
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:43,017
I was always more drawn
to the side characters
401
00:27:43,100 --> 00:27:47,313
in any media that I consumed,
and one day it kinda hit me.
402
00:27:47,396 --> 00:27:50,066
"You know, you're spending all your time
on these side characters.
403
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:52,651
Why don't you make the side characters
main characters?"
404
00:27:52,735 --> 00:27:57,156
And so, Abbie was, kind of,
one of my first instances of that.
405
00:27:57,656 --> 00:28:01,869
She's introverted, sarcastic
and kinda mean sometimes,
406
00:28:01,952 --> 00:28:04,372
and that's her identity.
407
00:28:08,959 --> 00:28:12,963
It was one of my first experiences
of having a main character that I loved.
408
00:28:17,426 --> 00:28:22,390
Around the same time, I'd also been having
this conversation with my parents
409
00:28:22,473 --> 00:28:24,266
in which they would look
at my art and ask me,
410
00:28:24,350 --> 00:28:26,143
"Why do you draw
so many white characters?"
411
00:28:26,227 --> 00:28:29,563
Like, a lot of my characters were pale,
and this is something
412
00:28:29,647 --> 00:28:32,483
that I've actually talked
with other artists of color
413
00:28:32,566 --> 00:28:35,152
'cause we all have experienced
this same phenomenon
414
00:28:35,236 --> 00:28:40,700
where when we dream up
our own stories as children, at least,
415
00:28:40,783 --> 00:28:44,078
those characters are often white or,
you know, light-skinned.
416
00:28:46,288 --> 00:28:50,209
And so I started having
this very honest conversation with myself
417
00:28:50,292 --> 00:28:53,671
in which I was asking, "Why does
dark skin make you uncomfortable?"
418
00:28:55,381 --> 00:28:59,135
And so, when I started developing M.F.K.,
419
00:28:59,218 --> 00:29:02,972
I realized this was an opportunity
to kinda confront that discomfort.
420
00:29:03,055 --> 00:29:08,811
And so my goals were to make a female
character and make a black character.
421
00:29:13,566 --> 00:29:16,652
I started putting M.F.K. online.
422
00:29:17,194 --> 00:29:21,323
The great thing about webcomics
is it's a very accessible way
423
00:29:21,407 --> 00:29:23,409
to show what you can do.
424
00:29:23,492 --> 00:29:27,538
All you need is Internet access,
and you can view them anywhere
425
00:29:27,621 --> 00:29:29,915
on any device in any country.
426
00:29:29,999 --> 00:29:31,542
For me, it was a way of showing that
427
00:29:31,625 --> 00:29:34,128
not only can I draw,
but I can write as well.
428
00:29:35,463 --> 00:29:38,340
M.F.K. had always had, kind of,
a small following
429
00:29:38,424 --> 00:29:40,885
because I didn't
go out of my way to advertise it.
430
00:29:40,968 --> 00:29:43,054
I kinda let it spread by word of mouth.
431
00:29:43,137 --> 00:29:47,975
So, the followership was pretty small up
until the Dwayne McDuffie Award.
432
00:29:48,934 --> 00:29:50,478
When I saw the finalist list
433
00:29:50,561 --> 00:29:55,733
and saw that I was up against
Shaft by David Walker and Ms. Marvel,
434
00:29:55,816 --> 00:29:59,904
I did not think it had a chance at all.
It's just my dumb little webcomic.
435
00:30:02,281 --> 00:30:05,493
When I received the award
and the ceremony broke,
436
00:30:05,576 --> 00:30:08,954
and I finally checked my phone,
it was just blowing up.
437
00:30:09,038 --> 00:30:10,706
I feel like
that was kinda a turning point.
438
00:30:10,790 --> 00:30:13,584
All of a sudden,
I had all this media attention,
439
00:30:13,667 --> 00:30:17,630
and it was the level of attention
that I had been wanting for the comic
440
00:30:17,713 --> 00:30:22,051
and suddenly I had it.
It's kind of a trippy experience.
441
00:30:28,849 --> 00:30:31,727
-[Nocenti] Hello, how are you?
-[Simonson laughing]
442
00:30:31,811 --> 00:30:33,562
-It's so funny because I was--
-Isn't it kinda like...
443
00:30:33,646 --> 00:30:36,190
Now this is funny.
Look at all these girls.
444
00:30:36,273 --> 00:30:38,693
These are women that worked at Marvel.
445
00:30:38,776 --> 00:30:39,902
So I don't remember the story
446
00:30:39,985 --> 00:30:42,196
-because the words are gone,
-[Simonson] I don't remember it either.
447
00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:45,825
[Nocenti] But this is from the Fumetti,
and it must've been a story
448
00:30:45,908 --> 00:30:49,495
where it's like, "Let's get all the women
that work at Marvel into an office,
449
00:30:49,578 --> 00:30:51,747
and then Stan comes in?"
450
00:30:51,831 --> 00:30:53,457
-[Simonson] I don't--
-[Nocenti] There you are, right?
451
00:30:53,541 --> 00:30:54,625
[Simonson] Oh, yeah, there I am. Wow.
452
00:30:54,709 --> 00:30:56,460
[Nocenti] Oh, my God. Look what I found.
453
00:30:57,420 --> 00:31:01,716
-[Simonson] Oh, there you go. [laughs]
-[Nocenti] The welcome mat. [chuckles]
454
00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:03,801
[Nocenti] The Bullpen,
and we were all working there,
455
00:31:03,884 --> 00:31:07,680
has a history
of ruthlessly making fun of everyone.
456
00:31:07,763 --> 00:31:10,808
-[Simonson] Yes.
-[Nocenti] And one day I came in
457
00:31:10,891 --> 00:31:13,519
and there was this
blank-eyed idiot on my door.
458
00:31:13,602 --> 00:31:15,229
I was like, "I guess that's me."
459
00:31:15,312 --> 00:31:19,608
And then the next day I came in,
and someone had turned it into a doormat.
460
00:31:19,692 --> 00:31:21,360
And you know what it was all about?
461
00:31:21,444 --> 00:31:24,572
Because Barry Windsor-Smith
462
00:31:24,655 --> 00:31:27,283
-was drawing the X-Men...
-[Simonson] Uh-huh.
463
00:31:27,366 --> 00:31:31,203
...and people thought
I was letting him go wild.
464
00:31:31,287 --> 00:31:36,459
And so somehow that translated
into my face on a doormat
465
00:31:36,542 --> 00:31:38,794
-at the entrance of my editorial office.
-[Simonson scoffs]
466
00:31:38,878 --> 00:31:40,212
First of all, I think that's rude.
467
00:31:40,296 --> 00:31:43,299
Second of all, you were actually able
to get work out of Barry Smith,
468
00:31:43,382 --> 00:31:45,551
which is a first-class miracle
right there.
469
00:31:45,634 --> 00:31:47,595
And Barry's work is always beautiful.
470
00:31:47,678 --> 00:31:49,013
[Nocenti] It's always good.
471
00:31:50,306 --> 00:31:52,975
By the time I got to Marvel in the '80s,
472
00:31:53,059 --> 00:31:55,436
I think we happened to
hit at the sweet spot
473
00:31:55,519 --> 00:31:59,273
when the people were really
welcoming to have females in comics.
474
00:31:59,357 --> 00:32:00,608
Everybody was like,
475
00:32:00,691 --> 00:32:03,235
"Oh boy, there's a girl here.
Let's help her."
476
00:32:03,319 --> 00:32:08,991
It was the opposite from what I hear
people talking about in the '70s.
477
00:32:11,327 --> 00:32:13,746
[Kidman] At that time, in the 1980s,
478
00:32:13,829 --> 00:32:17,333
comic books were still
a very male-dominated space.
479
00:32:18,125 --> 00:32:19,710
But then it started to open up again.
480
00:32:20,878 --> 00:32:24,757
In the early 1980s,
both DC and Marvel shifted
481
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,386
from bigger distributors
to specialty shops,
482
00:32:28,469 --> 00:32:30,554
and it was through those specialty shops
483
00:32:30,638 --> 00:32:35,810
that they were able to cultivate
a loyal audience of fans
484
00:32:35,893 --> 00:32:38,521
and actually flourish in the late 1980s.
485
00:32:40,272 --> 00:32:42,191
-[man] You read the Marvel Age?
-[boy 1] Yeah, totally.
486
00:32:42,274 --> 00:32:44,527
[boy 2] Where, like, three people die?
Well, issue #210...
487
00:32:44,610 --> 00:32:47,238
Marvel is more, like, realistic.
488
00:32:49,365 --> 00:32:52,785
[Nocenti] The first time I walked
into the Marvel Comics office,
489
00:32:52,868 --> 00:32:57,289
I wasn't that aware
of what a superhero was,
490
00:32:57,373 --> 00:33:03,170
and the magic
of what Marvel Comics was up to
491
00:33:03,254 --> 00:33:05,756
became apparent really quickly.
492
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,261
I mean, you walk into the Marvel Bullpen
and there's Marie Severin,
493
00:33:10,344 --> 00:33:13,889
and she's telling you stories and drawing,
494
00:33:13,973 --> 00:33:16,809
and she's pulling out her guns
for reference.
495
00:33:16,892 --> 00:33:21,313
You had Archie Goodwin, who was considered
the master of plot mechanics.
496
00:33:21,397 --> 00:33:23,816
Denny O'Neil, who was a journalist.
497
00:33:23,899 --> 00:33:27,695
If you were having trouble with a plot,
you'd go in and there would be Denny.
498
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,700
The spirit of the place was so playful
and so much fun,
499
00:33:32,783 --> 00:33:36,370
and you had a constant sense
of being mentored.
500
00:33:37,538 --> 00:33:43,127
Louise Simonson taught me everything
that I know about editing.
501
00:33:45,337 --> 00:33:48,674
[Simonson] I think I was the only editor
who was a mother then.
502
00:33:49,341 --> 00:33:51,844
I had a daughter
that I had to drop off at school.
503
00:33:52,261 --> 00:33:58,768
So my daily routine was not
what the suits would have liked.
504
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,980
And I was told by,
I think it was the comptroller
505
00:34:03,064 --> 00:34:06,567
just riding up in the elevator,
he said, "You know what?"
506
00:34:06,650 --> 00:34:10,488
He said, "You have this terrible record
for coming in on time."
507
00:34:10,571 --> 00:34:14,283
But he said, "You do more pages
than anybody else,
508
00:34:14,367 --> 00:34:17,370
and they're making more money
than everybody else is.
509
00:34:18,162 --> 00:34:20,664
So, just keep doing what you're doing."
510
00:34:21,332 --> 00:34:24,085
I mean, I thought it was
actually kind of cool.
511
00:34:24,168 --> 00:34:29,507
Now, honestly, as far as the amount
of money the books I was making went,
512
00:34:29,590 --> 00:34:33,552
I did have the X-Men. So, duh.
513
00:34:33,636 --> 00:34:36,389
I mean, yeah, I was just lucky.
514
00:34:37,765 --> 00:34:42,895
[Nocenti] I was Louise Simonson's
assistant, and when she decided to leave,
515
00:34:42,978 --> 00:34:47,358
the X-Men were actually, I think,
the best-selling books.
516
00:34:47,441 --> 00:34:49,902
And Weezie asked everybody, you know,
517
00:34:49,985 --> 00:34:51,779
"Do you want the X-Men?
Do you want the X-Men?"
518
00:34:51,862 --> 00:34:53,656
Everyone said,
"No, we don't want the X-Men"
519
00:34:53,739 --> 00:34:57,034
because people tended
to love what they were doing.
520
00:34:57,118 --> 00:35:00,329
You know, you're the Avengers editor
or you're the Spider-Man editor.
521
00:35:00,413 --> 00:35:02,832
So nobody wanted the X-Men,
522
00:35:02,915 --> 00:35:07,211
and I had already
gotten to know Chris really well
523
00:35:07,294 --> 00:35:13,050
and sat in on all their story meetings,
so it was a really seamless transition.
524
00:35:16,095 --> 00:35:18,305
I started getting little short stories,
525
00:35:18,389 --> 00:35:22,351
and then I got the assignment
to kill Spider-Woman.
526
00:35:22,435 --> 00:35:24,854
That was my first big assignment.
527
00:35:24,937 --> 00:35:27,940
I was excited
at the idea of killing Spider-Woman.
528
00:35:28,399 --> 00:35:31,152
Maybe I was too naive and stupid
to realize
529
00:35:31,235 --> 00:35:34,071
that killing a character
is not something you want to do,
530
00:35:34,155 --> 00:35:37,283
and that Mark had probably asked
every other writer
531
00:35:37,366 --> 00:35:40,494
if they would kill Spider-Woman,
and they all went, "No."
532
00:35:40,578 --> 00:35:43,748
Look at this.
This is the first drawing of Longshot.
533
00:35:43,831 --> 00:35:48,544
This was like him saying what kind of
stuff he would like to have in Longshot,
534
00:35:48,627 --> 00:35:51,255
-what the theme should be.
-[Simonson] That's great.
535
00:35:51,338 --> 00:35:52,590
-[Nocenti] Isn't it sweet?
-[Simonson] I know.
536
00:35:52,673 --> 00:35:55,468
-[Nocenti] Look, "To Louise and Anne."
-Aw.
537
00:35:55,551 --> 00:35:58,637
I love Arthur.
I had totally forgotten about this.
538
00:35:59,096 --> 00:36:01,390
When Annie started writing Longshot,
539
00:36:01,474 --> 00:36:05,061
and I saw
what a strong point of view she had,
540
00:36:05,144 --> 00:36:08,773
and how well she expressed it,
I thought, "Wow. She's really something."
541
00:36:08,856 --> 00:36:12,985
She had a real distinct way
of thinking about things,
542
00:36:13,069 --> 00:36:16,947
and I think that that's...
that was such an advantage for her.
543
00:36:17,948 --> 00:36:22,787
It's really important to read works
by people who have points of view
544
00:36:23,412 --> 00:36:27,792
because it expands my own point of view
of somebody who sees things differently,
545
00:36:27,875 --> 00:36:30,711
and Annie saw everything differently.
546
00:36:30,795 --> 00:36:33,047
Her stuff was just brilliant.
547
00:36:35,466 --> 00:36:38,469
[Nocenti] I remember just sitting on the
subway every day going to work
548
00:36:38,552 --> 00:36:43,140
and wondering what everyone was thinking
and taking that to the next step of,
549
00:36:43,224 --> 00:36:45,142
"What if the train went to hell,
550
00:36:45,226 --> 00:36:48,521
and then Daredevil gets to go to hell
and meet Mephisto?"
551
00:36:48,604 --> 00:36:51,273
That's like fun. That's like an opera.
552
00:36:51,357 --> 00:36:53,192
[man singing opera]
553
00:36:54,485 --> 00:36:57,488
[Nocenti] There's a lot of fun
to choreographing a fight.
554
00:36:57,571 --> 00:37:01,992
I mean, when I was writing Daredevil,
I started taking karate classes.
555
00:37:02,076 --> 00:37:03,953
It was like I wanted to learn
how to fight.
556
00:37:04,036 --> 00:37:05,454
I started boxing.
557
00:37:06,789 --> 00:37:12,169
So, I got into it,
and I enjoyed the choreography of a fight,
558
00:37:12,253 --> 00:37:14,755
but at some point you have to say,
559
00:37:14,839 --> 00:37:19,385
"What am I saying about the world that
everything has to escalate into a fight?"
560
00:37:20,511 --> 00:37:24,140
People talk about
why there aren't more women in comics.
561
00:37:24,223 --> 00:37:27,727
I've always thought it had to do
with that narrative itself.
562
00:37:28,436 --> 00:37:35,401
Women relate to feeling powerful,
feeling emancipated, having agency,
563
00:37:35,484 --> 00:37:39,030
but do they relate
to people smashing each other?
564
00:37:39,113 --> 00:37:40,114
I don't think so.
565
00:37:40,906 --> 00:37:42,950
Back then I wasn't thinking,
566
00:37:43,034 --> 00:37:48,873
"How do I draw females
into being interested in these stories?"
567
00:37:51,625 --> 00:37:52,626
[Simonson chuckling]
568
00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:55,796
-It's so good seeing you. [chuckles]
-Oh, I know. [chuckles]
569
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:01,093
I avoided female characters
like the plague for years.
570
00:38:01,177 --> 00:38:02,011
[Nocenti] Why?
571
00:38:02,094 --> 00:38:06,849
Because I didn't want to get typecast
as a woman who writes female characters,
572
00:38:06,932 --> 00:38:09,977
-'cause those characters never lasted.
-Yeah.
573
00:38:10,061 --> 00:38:12,271
And no-- And then you were out of a job.
574
00:38:12,355 --> 00:38:15,066
I think I was just trying
to write like a man back then.
575
00:38:15,149 --> 00:38:16,776
-Yeah.
-I was just like,
576
00:38:16,859 --> 00:38:18,402
"Oh, let me be one of the boys.
577
00:38:18,486 --> 00:38:21,030
I'll write Punisher,
Wolverine, Daredevil."
578
00:38:21,113 --> 00:38:23,657
-And then I thought that you...
-[Simonson] Mm-hmm.
579
00:38:23,741 --> 00:38:28,996
...and Trina Robbins were the first people
that were kinda like,
580
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,250
"Wait a minute.
Let's try a comic that isn't for men."
581
00:38:33,334 --> 00:38:36,587
[Simonson] I thought, maybe,
I wanted to write something,
582
00:38:36,670 --> 00:38:40,132
and I had this idea
of four little kids who are superheroes.
583
00:38:40,216 --> 00:38:43,803
[Brigman] Weezie said, "I have an idea
for this comic book called Power Pack."
584
00:38:44,637 --> 00:38:50,434
The stories she wrote were really more
like classic young adult stories.
585
00:38:50,518 --> 00:38:54,563
I don't think there were
any other comics like that.
586
00:38:55,314 --> 00:38:59,068
It appealed to a different
sort of audience,
587
00:38:59,151 --> 00:39:03,614
from the 13, 14-year-old-boy audience.
588
00:39:03,698 --> 00:39:08,536
[Simonson] I like stories that have power,
if I'm doing one of the superhero stories,
589
00:39:08,619 --> 00:39:12,415
but Power Pack was a little different,
and it wasn't just about power.
590
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,876
It was about family, about interaction.
591
00:39:18,170 --> 00:39:21,382
[Brigman] She looked at my portfolio,
and she said,
592
00:39:21,465 --> 00:39:23,300
"Do you know how to draw children?"
593
00:39:23,384 --> 00:39:26,220
And I said, "Yeah.
I can draw children." And I could.
594
00:39:27,388 --> 00:39:30,433
What did you do before Power Pack?
595
00:39:30,516 --> 00:39:32,101
-Nothing. [chuckles]
-Nothing?
596
00:39:32,184 --> 00:39:34,270
-That was it.
-[laughs] Nothing really.
597
00:39:35,146 --> 00:39:38,274
[Brigman] It's remarkable
that this book came along when it did,
598
00:39:38,357 --> 00:39:40,693
because I was not good
at drawing superheroes.
599
00:39:40,776 --> 00:39:43,154
It was really hard for me to exaggerate
600
00:39:43,237 --> 00:39:47,742
the way you needed to exaggerate
the human body and anatomy,
601
00:39:47,825 --> 00:39:50,536
-but I could draw children.
-[Simonson] She was just brilliant.
602
00:39:50,619 --> 00:39:53,998
The characters became
even more themselves when she drew them.
603
00:39:54,081 --> 00:39:57,501
[Brigman] I was really lucky that I worked
with a writer who knew what she was doing,
604
00:39:57,585 --> 00:40:00,880
because I was just starting out,
and I really didn't know what I was doing.
605
00:40:02,757 --> 00:40:04,717
We were at a convention,
and this young woman came over,
606
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,388
and she had graduated from SCAD Savannah,
607
00:40:09,472 --> 00:40:13,851
and she goes, "I just wanted to meet you
'cause we studied you in class."
608
00:40:13,934 --> 00:40:17,772
And I was like, "What class was that?"
And she said, "History of Comics."
609
00:40:17,855 --> 00:40:21,400
-[Simonson] Oh, God. [laughing]
-[Brigman laughing]
610
00:40:24,278 --> 00:40:26,864
[Robbins] Most women I know who draw
comics, and there are very few of us,
611
00:40:26,947 --> 00:40:29,867
don't really draw superheroines,
and I come the closest to it.
612
00:40:29,950 --> 00:40:33,204
I draw strong women,
but they don't have superpowers.
613
00:40:33,287 --> 00:40:35,122
They're victorious in the end,
and they're strong
614
00:40:35,206 --> 00:40:38,459
because I like women who are like that,
and I wanna be like that.
615
00:40:38,542 --> 00:40:41,670
In fact, this woman I'm drawing right now
has thigh-high boots.
616
00:40:41,754 --> 00:40:43,881
But I decided against
making them high-heeled
617
00:40:43,964 --> 00:40:47,676
because it's very hard
to fight crime in high heels.
618
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,932
I brought my idea for a comic
to Jim Shooter,
619
00:40:53,015 --> 00:40:57,520
and the idea was to tie it in
with Marvel and their past,
620
00:40:57,603 --> 00:41:02,108
that my heroine Misty
would be the niece of Millie the Model.
621
00:41:02,191 --> 00:41:04,860
And so he said,
"Let's do a six-part miniseries."
622
00:41:04,944 --> 00:41:07,446
And that's what I did. Meet Misty.
623
00:41:07,530 --> 00:41:12,159
And unfortunately, what happened
was that, at that point,
624
00:41:12,243 --> 00:41:15,996
you could only buy comics
in comic book stores.
625
00:41:16,455 --> 00:41:19,458
And the comic book stores
were all superhero,
626
00:41:19,542 --> 00:41:24,714
and so they didn't wanna carry our books,
and they would order maybe two copies.
627
00:41:24,797 --> 00:41:29,093
And when those two copies sold out,
they'd go, "Phew, got rid of those."
628
00:41:29,176 --> 00:41:30,553
And they wouldn't reorder.
629
00:41:30,636 --> 00:41:32,888
But that's what killed the books.
630
00:41:32,972 --> 00:41:37,935
My editor, Ann Nocenti,
every week she would mail me
631
00:41:38,018 --> 00:41:43,065
a manila envelope stuffed with
letters and designs from little girls,
632
00:41:43,149 --> 00:41:45,943
and they would not write to me,
but they would write to Misty.
633
00:41:46,027 --> 00:41:51,240
"Dear, Misty. I love your book,
but I can never find it."
634
00:41:51,991 --> 00:41:54,702
Karyn Bryant here at Marvel Comics
talking with some more guys.
635
00:41:54,785 --> 00:41:59,665
Now, exactly how many
comic books are in the Marvel library?
636
00:41:59,749 --> 00:42:01,375
Oh, you mean currently put out?
637
00:42:01,459 --> 00:42:03,252
-[Bryant] Yeah.
-About 200.
638
00:42:08,841 --> 00:42:12,428
[Kidman] In the late 1980s
and the early 1990s,
639
00:42:12,511 --> 00:42:14,847
we saw the rise of the graphic novel.
640
00:42:17,725 --> 00:42:22,813
And the graphic novel made space
for comic books in bookstores,
641
00:42:22,897 --> 00:42:26,400
which is not a place
that comic books had ever been before.
642
00:42:28,319 --> 00:42:29,987
[male editor] In the '80s,
643
00:42:30,071 --> 00:42:33,574
I know that you'll probably
remember, where did we buy comic books?
644
00:42:33,657 --> 00:42:36,535
[Kidman] And once comic books
were in bookstores,
645
00:42:36,619 --> 00:42:38,996
they were accessible to women again.
646
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,667
So, all of a sudden,
this female market arose
647
00:42:43,751 --> 00:42:47,171
that just hadn't been noticed before.
648
00:42:47,254 --> 00:42:51,133
And I think that that really caught
the attention of comic book publishers.
649
00:42:51,217 --> 00:42:54,845
That there was the potential
for this girl comic book audience,
650
00:42:54,929 --> 00:42:57,848
a potential that had always been there,
651
00:42:57,932 --> 00:43:01,185
but that they had been
really just overlooking.
652
00:43:06,524 --> 00:43:10,736
An editor from Marvel
e-mailed me one day and said,
653
00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:13,280
"Hey, we have this anthology
we're working on
654
00:43:13,364 --> 00:43:15,074
and we have this story.
655
00:43:15,157 --> 00:43:18,577
It's a Rocket Raccoon,
Tippy-Toe Squirrel team up.
656
00:43:18,661 --> 00:43:20,287
Would you be interested?"
657
00:43:20,371 --> 00:43:26,711
And first I just stepped away
from my computer and screamed for a while
658
00:43:26,794 --> 00:43:30,214
'cause, you know, it was like...
659
00:43:31,674 --> 00:43:35,219
I'm just this random webcomic creator.
660
00:43:35,302 --> 00:43:42,143
An e-mail from Marvel
is beyond anything that I anticipated.
661
00:43:42,768 --> 00:43:46,105
And, of course,
when I finally settled down,
662
00:43:46,188 --> 00:43:49,775
I went back and said,
"Yes, of course." Like, "I will do this."
663
00:43:49,859 --> 00:43:52,153
This story is mine.
664
00:43:57,533 --> 00:44:01,704
I think it's really hilarious
that they offered me Rocket and Tippy-Toe.
665
00:44:01,787 --> 00:44:06,751
The editor was Kathleen Wisneski,
and I wonder if she looked at my portfolio
666
00:44:06,834 --> 00:44:09,170
and was like,
"Oh, yeah, she loves animals."
667
00:44:09,253 --> 00:44:14,800
Like, I really appreciated that, actually,
because I do love talking animals.
668
00:44:14,884 --> 00:44:16,844
I was like, "Yes. This is totally my jam."
669
00:44:17,344 --> 00:44:19,305
Marvel, actually,
gave me a lot of freedom.
670
00:44:19,388 --> 00:44:21,390
A lot more freedom than I expected.
671
00:44:21,474 --> 00:44:22,808
They kinda just said, you know,
672
00:44:22,892 --> 00:44:27,188
"Here's where Rocket and Tippy are
in the current continuity and go."
673
00:44:33,861 --> 00:44:39,784
When the conversation turned to
the first black women writing for Marvel,
674
00:44:39,867 --> 00:44:42,953
you know, Roxane Gay, Yona Harvey, me,
675
00:44:43,579 --> 00:44:46,916
it was just, I don't know,
this surreal feeling of, "No way.
676
00:44:46,999 --> 00:44:49,960
Like, that can't be possible.
677
00:44:50,044 --> 00:44:54,799
Marvel has been in existence
for over 70 years.
678
00:44:54,882 --> 00:44:57,259
How are we the first?"
679
00:44:59,970 --> 00:45:02,223
So Marvel's Spider-Man department
came to me
680
00:45:02,306 --> 00:45:05,101
and told me
about their Spider-Geddon event,
681
00:45:05,184 --> 00:45:09,647
and they basically asked me
to pitch some ideas.
682
00:45:09,730 --> 00:45:14,860
They told me, "We want you to do
a character that you're excited about."
683
00:45:14,944 --> 00:45:19,824
And so, I had pitched Spider-Byte,
684
00:45:19,907 --> 00:45:25,287
and that's B-Y-T-E,
as this digital Spider-Woman.
685
00:45:25,371 --> 00:45:26,872
I thought it was a really cool concept
686
00:45:26,956 --> 00:45:31,627
because we have all these
spider characters in the real world,
687
00:45:31,711 --> 00:45:35,840
and we didn't really have
a superhero for the virtual world.
688
00:45:35,923 --> 00:45:42,680
And it was also an opportunity to
make a black woman as a spider character.
689
00:45:44,515 --> 00:45:48,894
Putting any story out there
is always, kind of, a leap of faith.
690
00:45:48,978 --> 00:45:51,022
It's always a huge risk.
691
00:45:51,105 --> 00:45:55,109
In particular, a character that
the Marvel Universe had not seen before.
692
00:45:55,192 --> 00:45:57,528
And so that kinda felt like...
693
00:45:58,904 --> 00:46:03,200
putting my imagination on the line
with thousands of people.
694
00:46:09,081 --> 00:46:10,750
[Amanat] Working at Marvel is actually--
695
00:46:10,833 --> 00:46:14,587
It's like a pretty standard office job
in a lot of ways,
696
00:46:14,670 --> 00:46:18,716
except you get to wear
comic book T-shirts and sneakers,
697
00:46:18,799 --> 00:46:21,135
and you have
all this incredible artwork around you.
698
00:46:21,218 --> 00:46:22,720
-Hi. Do you need me?
-[worker laughing]
699
00:46:22,803 --> 00:46:28,267
[Amanat] So the job of a comic book editor
is very similar to, like, a producer.
700
00:46:28,350 --> 00:46:31,228
It is very much
a relationship with the creators
701
00:46:31,312 --> 00:46:34,065
that you have on a particular series,
702
00:46:34,148 --> 00:46:39,320
and really bringing out, I think,
the best of everyone, individually,
703
00:46:39,403 --> 00:46:41,947
into one collective story.
704
00:46:42,031 --> 00:46:43,366
Ooh!
705
00:46:45,034 --> 00:46:51,123
Captain Marvel was the first, I think,
female-led title that I edited fully.
706
00:46:51,207 --> 00:46:54,001
We didn't really have
any other female-led comics.
707
00:46:54,085 --> 00:46:56,295
Like, women were on team books,
708
00:46:56,379 --> 00:47:00,758
but we didn't have any solo series
featuring a female character.
709
00:47:05,346 --> 00:47:06,931
[DeConnick] When I came to Ms. Marvel,
710
00:47:07,014 --> 00:47:11,018
it was this really Machiavellian choice,
to be honest.
711
00:47:11,102 --> 00:47:15,022
I had no particular like, "Oh, I have
a passion to write this character."
712
00:47:15,106 --> 00:47:16,982
It was, "I need an ongoing."
713
00:47:18,818 --> 00:47:23,197
Carol Danvers is Ms. Marvel
for a number of years,
714
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,283
but during that time
she doesn't have a lot of agency.
715
00:47:26,367 --> 00:47:29,745
Not a lot of women characters in comics
had a lot of agency at the time,
716
00:47:29,829 --> 00:47:34,041
and, so I pitched Carol Danvers
as Chuck Yeager.
717
00:47:34,125 --> 00:47:37,002
Someone out there pushing boundaries,
taking chances,
718
00:47:37,086 --> 00:47:38,504
walking away from the burning plane.
719
00:47:41,549 --> 00:47:45,636
I called up Steve Wacker, and was like,
"I wanna pitch you a Ms. Marvel series."
720
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:47,221
And he was like, "Okay."
721
00:47:47,722 --> 00:47:53,769
Steve was into it, and he championed it
up the chain, and then he called me
722
00:47:54,228 --> 00:47:59,316
and he says,
"Yeah, so, you're not writing Ms. Marvel."
723
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,319
"Okay, well, that's, that's cool.
You know, I mean...
724
00:48:03,904 --> 00:48:05,239
We'll move on to the next series."
725
00:48:05,322 --> 00:48:08,451
And he's like,
"'Cause you're writing Captain Marvel!"
726
00:48:08,534 --> 00:48:09,410
I was like, "Really, dude?"
727
00:48:10,786 --> 00:48:11,912
And then he was like,
728
00:48:11,996 --> 00:48:15,499
"And as long as we're going to do this,
we should put her in pants."
729
00:48:16,042 --> 00:48:17,835
And actually, that was in an e-mail,
730
00:48:17,918 --> 00:48:19,920
and I have the e-mail I wrote back to him,
and I was like,
731
00:48:20,004 --> 00:48:22,506
"I can't tell if you're kidding."
732
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,561
[Amanat] Kelly Sue DeConnick,
who's the writer on Captain Marvel,
733
00:48:35,644 --> 00:48:40,649
did such an incredible job
creating this amazing female character
734
00:48:40,733 --> 00:48:43,361
that is so much more relatable.
735
00:48:44,779 --> 00:48:50,618
She was no longer created in a way
that was inherently misogynistic.
736
00:48:50,701 --> 00:48:52,495
She wasn't sexualized.
737
00:48:52,578 --> 00:48:56,707
Her rendering was more about her being
a strong fighter-pilot than anything else,
738
00:48:56,791 --> 00:48:59,251
which was so much more
closely linked to her identity.
739
00:48:59,877 --> 00:49:01,420
This was not a Sana note.
740
00:49:01,504 --> 00:49:04,924
It came from somebody else,
but was delivered through her.
741
00:49:05,716 --> 00:49:08,260
There's a monologue I wrote for Carol
where it's like,
742
00:49:08,344 --> 00:49:11,263
"Have you ever seen a little girl
run so fast she falls down?
743
00:49:11,347 --> 00:49:13,682
There's a moment
before she hits the ground,
744
00:49:13,766 --> 00:49:17,645
a moment before all of her doubts
and fears catch up to her,
745
00:49:17,728 --> 00:49:20,648
and in that moment, she flies.
In that moment every little girl flies."
746
00:49:21,982 --> 00:49:24,819
And the note was,
747
00:49:24,902 --> 00:49:29,490
"Could we change it to every little kid?
So we don't alienate the male reader."
748
00:49:29,907 --> 00:49:33,828
Uh, and I, like, lost my mind.
749
00:49:33,911 --> 00:49:36,205
So I'm like, you know, "Can you call me?"
750
00:49:36,288 --> 00:49:39,291
And so Sana calls. And I'm like,
"Yeah, I am not changing that."
751
00:49:39,375 --> 00:49:40,209
She's like, "Okay."
752
00:49:41,502 --> 00:49:43,504
[Amanat] There's so many things
that make a difference
753
00:49:43,587 --> 00:49:45,715
when you have a female writer
and a female editor,
754
00:49:45,798 --> 00:49:49,802
where you can get away
with pushing back on a line that says,
755
00:49:49,885 --> 00:49:52,304
"Hey, look. I understand
the need to be more inclusive,
756
00:49:52,388 --> 00:49:54,515
but the focus right now is on women
757
00:49:54,598 --> 00:49:58,018
because we have not focused on women
in a very long time,
758
00:49:58,102 --> 00:50:00,604
or in a way that we should be
focusing on women."
759
00:50:01,605 --> 00:50:04,525
Kelly Sue and I would try to figure out
what are the elements that we need to do
760
00:50:04,608 --> 00:50:07,403
to make sure that we are telling a story
761
00:50:07,486 --> 00:50:11,157
that is obviously
going to sell like gangbusters
762
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:15,494
but at the same time keep
pushing Carol's story forward
763
00:50:15,578 --> 00:50:16,954
and her character forward.
764
00:50:17,038 --> 00:50:20,499
Because we needed to start telling
those human elements of Carol
765
00:50:20,583 --> 00:50:22,418
because I think
that's what really makes her work.
766
00:50:25,087 --> 00:50:27,715
[DeConnick] I wanted Carol to have friends
that were older than her,
767
00:50:27,798 --> 00:50:29,967
that were younger than her
and that were her same age,
768
00:50:30,051 --> 00:50:34,346
and I also wanted Carol to be able
to compete with other women
769
00:50:34,430 --> 00:50:37,433
in a way that did not destroy
their relationships.
770
00:50:38,059 --> 00:50:40,936
We usually see women competing in a way
771
00:50:41,020 --> 00:50:43,272
where they're pretending
that they're not competing.
772
00:50:43,356 --> 00:50:45,441
Right. It's all very, like,
"Oh, you." "No, you."
773
00:50:45,524 --> 00:50:48,903
And usually competing
for the attention or approval of a man,
774
00:50:48,986 --> 00:50:53,532
and it's always very, like,
backhanded and conniving,
775
00:50:53,616 --> 00:50:57,453
and the fact is,
that is not my experience of the world.
776
00:50:57,536 --> 00:51:01,374
That is not my experience
of the women in my life,
777
00:51:01,832 --> 00:51:06,253
and yet I never see it reflected
in my culture.
778
00:51:06,337 --> 00:51:10,966
So I wanted to see Carol competing
with female colleagues
779
00:51:11,050 --> 00:51:14,387
the same way
that I compete with female colleagues,
780
00:51:15,054 --> 00:51:18,724
but we support one another,
and we're happy when somebody succeeds.
781
00:51:24,814 --> 00:51:26,899
[Amanat]
As soon as Captain Marvel came out,
782
00:51:26,982 --> 00:51:31,696
and Kelly Sue started nicknaming
her fan community the "Carol Corps"
783
00:51:31,779 --> 00:51:33,114
in a very loving way,
784
00:51:33,197 --> 00:51:40,037
I really witnessed the transformation
of what a Marvel fan was.
785
00:51:41,247 --> 00:51:43,416
It was really more
about supporting one another.
786
00:51:43,499 --> 00:51:47,378
We were supporting them because we were
creating a version of Carol Danvers
787
00:51:47,461 --> 00:51:50,047
that women really wanted to see,
young girls wanted to see.
788
00:51:50,131 --> 00:51:53,008
And they were supporting us
by buying our comics
789
00:51:53,092 --> 00:51:55,845
because people really believed
that women weren't reading comics,
790
00:51:55,928 --> 00:51:57,054
women didn't like comics.
791
00:51:57,138 --> 00:52:02,059
And it made us realize, as a company,
that there was this audience out there
792
00:52:02,143 --> 00:52:06,981
who was paying attention, and, finally,
there was a character that was for them.
793
00:52:19,660 --> 00:52:24,498
We saw this really great spike
in excitement
794
00:52:24,582 --> 00:52:27,543
and love and passion with Captain Marvel.
795
00:52:27,626 --> 00:52:31,213
And it really, sort of,
inspired us to do more
796
00:52:31,297 --> 00:52:35,092
because we knew there's a fan community
out there that's activated.
797
00:52:35,176 --> 00:52:37,803
We can create more content for them.
798
00:52:37,887 --> 00:52:41,557
You know, Captain Marvel was, sort of,
that signpost of change.
799
00:52:45,269 --> 00:52:48,856
I had a conversation with my old boss,
Stephen Wacker.
800
00:52:48,939 --> 00:52:53,527
We were talking a lot about my childhood
and talking about the experiences I had,
801
00:52:53,611 --> 00:52:57,031
how I went to prom in a piece of cloth
I had wrapped around myself
802
00:52:57,114 --> 00:52:59,575
because I couldn't find any clothing
that was appropriate
803
00:52:59,658 --> 00:53:02,203
for a young Muslim woman to wear to prom.
804
00:53:02,286 --> 00:53:06,040
Prom, which, by the way, I went by myself
because I was not allowed to date.
805
00:53:07,375 --> 00:53:10,294
And running, like, doing track
while I was fasting, and just--
806
00:53:10,378 --> 00:53:14,340
He was just really interested in the fact
that I lived such a distinct experience
807
00:53:14,423 --> 00:53:16,384
that not many people really talked about.
808
00:53:16,467 --> 00:53:17,510
And he walked in, and he's like,
809
00:53:17,593 --> 00:53:20,763
"You know, I was really thinking a lot
about your stories,
810
00:53:20,846 --> 00:53:25,226
and it would be great if we had
a character that was based on you.
811
00:53:25,309 --> 00:53:27,645
Based on the young Sanas of the world."
812
00:53:27,728 --> 00:53:29,480
And I was like,
"Are we allowed to do this?"
813
00:53:29,563 --> 00:53:33,067
Like, just the concept. I didn't think
that anyone would be interested.
814
00:53:33,150 --> 00:53:35,069
And he was like, "Let's do it."
815
00:53:47,623 --> 00:53:48,958
We went straight into pitch mode,
816
00:53:49,041 --> 00:53:52,503
and the first person that I thought of
was G. Willow Wilson,
817
00:53:52,586 --> 00:53:57,425
who was a comic book writer
and a novelist and a Muslim.
818
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,054
She called me out of the blue,
and she said to me,
819
00:54:02,138 --> 00:54:08,227
"Hey. We want to create a new,
young American-Muslim superheroine
820
00:54:08,310 --> 00:54:10,271
and put her on her own ongoing series.
821
00:54:10,354 --> 00:54:13,524
Do you want to write this book
and help develop this character?"
822
00:54:14,275 --> 00:54:17,111
And I was pretty convinced
that they were joking.
823
00:54:17,194 --> 00:54:18,279
[chuckles]
824
00:54:18,362 --> 00:54:22,867
Because I said there's no way
that you ran that past Marvel Comics
825
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:25,828
and they said, "Yes."
How often does that happen?
826
00:54:27,538 --> 00:54:29,457
I didn't say yes right away.
827
00:54:29,540 --> 00:54:33,127
To be called up by two editors
at Marvel and told,
828
00:54:33,210 --> 00:54:36,672
"Yes, we want to put a Muslim editor
and a Muslim writer
829
00:54:36,756 --> 00:54:38,591
on a book about a Muslim character,"
830
00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:41,093
I was like,
"You're going to have to hire an intern
831
00:54:41,177 --> 00:54:42,636
just to open up all this hate mail."
832
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:46,265
You're gonna--
It just seemed like waving a red flag
833
00:54:46,348 --> 00:54:51,645
in front of all of the people who thought
that people like me and Sana
834
00:54:51,729 --> 00:54:53,689
should not be in comics at all.
835
00:54:54,357 --> 00:54:59,779
But Sana was so driven about this series.
836
00:54:59,862 --> 00:55:04,784
She was so prepared to usher it through,
to make sure that it was done right,
837
00:55:04,867 --> 00:55:09,246
to oversee all the nitty-gritty,
to run interference if necessary,
838
00:55:09,330 --> 00:55:12,500
that I was just, kind of, swept along.
I was like, "Yeah, absolutely.
839
00:55:12,583 --> 00:55:14,794
If you're this committed,
I'm this committed. Let's do it."
840
00:55:15,586 --> 00:55:17,421
[Amanat] She was like,
"All right. Let's try this out."
841
00:55:17,505 --> 00:55:22,343
And me and her kinda went back and forth
with different iterations of Kamala,
842
00:55:22,426 --> 00:55:24,095
who would become Kamala Khan.
843
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:26,931
What we realized was telling those stories
844
00:55:27,014 --> 00:55:32,269
about being young and feeling different
and feeling like an outcast
845
00:55:32,353 --> 00:55:35,439
and then suddenly being activated
846
00:55:35,523 --> 00:55:37,692
and having powers
and finding that you have powers,
847
00:55:37,775 --> 00:55:40,403
that's such a great story
about growing up,
848
00:55:40,486 --> 00:55:44,490
and that's an important story to tell
about being a minority at the same time.
849
00:55:45,199 --> 00:55:49,495
We were trying to figure out ways
to tie this character
850
00:55:49,578 --> 00:55:56,293
into the broader Marvel Universe that
would increase its chances of success.
851
00:55:56,377 --> 00:55:58,879
Because, especially at the time,
the understanding was
852
00:55:58,963 --> 00:56:02,425
that new characters
do not do terribly well.
853
00:56:02,508 --> 00:56:05,886
And if you add on any kind of modifier,
854
00:56:05,970 --> 00:56:10,015
if they are female,
if they're from an unusual background,
855
00:56:10,099 --> 00:56:13,894
it just gets worse and worse and worse,
and this was just, sort of, the math.
856
00:56:13,978 --> 00:56:17,606
And so we've decided
to make her a legacy character,
857
00:56:17,690 --> 00:56:20,276
to, sort of,
tie her to the legacy of Carol Danvers.
858
00:56:20,943 --> 00:56:23,446
[Amanat] Kamala Khan is
this young South Asian Muslim girl
859
00:56:23,529 --> 00:56:28,659
living in Jersey City, and she looks
across the river every single day,
860
00:56:28,743 --> 00:56:35,124
and she sees these beautiful, strong
heroes saving the world every single day,
861
00:56:35,207 --> 00:56:39,545
and one of those characters
is Captain Marvel.
862
00:56:39,628 --> 00:56:43,382
And Captain Marvel is this tall,
beautiful, blonde woman
863
00:56:43,466 --> 00:56:47,053
who makes saving the day look so easy
864
00:56:47,136 --> 00:56:50,765
and kicking the butt look so impressive.
865
00:56:50,848 --> 00:56:53,559
And for her, that's the ideal.
866
00:56:53,642 --> 00:56:56,103
And when you're, of course,
a young brown woman...
867
00:56:57,271 --> 00:56:59,690
that's, kind of,
all you see out in the world,
868
00:56:59,774 --> 00:57:03,569
is this ideal
that does not look anything like you.
869
00:57:03,652 --> 00:57:07,948
And I think the first time
that Kamala Khan gets powers,
870
00:57:08,032 --> 00:57:12,453
her go-to is to be become
exactly like Carol Danvers,
871
00:57:12,536 --> 00:57:17,875
to the point that she transforms
into the literal version of Carol Danvers,
872
00:57:17,958 --> 00:57:22,963
the version of Carol that was popular
for so long, and that was intentional.
873
00:57:26,967 --> 00:57:29,595
The hardest thing
is choosing to look like yourself
874
00:57:29,678 --> 00:57:31,972
because you don't feel
like it's impressive enough
875
00:57:32,056 --> 00:57:34,058
or beautiful enough or strong enough,
876
00:57:34,141 --> 00:57:36,394
because that's what you're always told,
877
00:57:36,477 --> 00:57:40,564
and so her challenge and her journey
is kinda coming back to herself.
878
00:57:46,570 --> 00:57:51,492
When we were, sort of,
gaming out the first year of the series,
879
00:57:51,575 --> 00:57:55,788
the one question that Sana would ask me
over and over was,
880
00:57:55,871 --> 00:58:00,167
"What is the 'With great power,
comes great responsibility' moment
881
00:58:00,251 --> 00:58:04,505
for this character? And how is it
different because of who she is?"
882
00:58:04,588 --> 00:58:07,758
"What is the Muslim 'With great power,
comes great responsibility'?"
883
00:58:08,676 --> 00:58:09,927
And it drove me nuts.
884
00:58:10,010 --> 00:58:14,807
I mean, I spent months trying to figure
out even what the heck she was asking.
885
00:58:14,890 --> 00:58:15,891
[chuckles]
886
00:58:15,975 --> 00:58:18,269
And really drilling down
and getting to that point,
887
00:58:18,352 --> 00:58:22,982
trying to figure out how it would look
and what it would sound like.
888
00:58:23,065 --> 00:58:25,317
And, you know, I did eventually get there,
889
00:58:25,401 --> 00:58:30,197
and it's, sort of, that moment
in the first arc, when Zoe is drowning.
890
00:58:30,906 --> 00:58:32,616
And Kamala has just gotten her powers.
891
00:58:32,700 --> 00:58:34,285
She still isn't really
in full control of them.
892
00:58:34,368 --> 00:58:36,704
She doesn't know
what she's supposed to do with them.
893
00:58:36,787 --> 00:58:39,040
She doesn't know who she is now.
894
00:58:39,123 --> 00:58:41,375
And she has to make
a split-second decision.
895
00:58:41,459 --> 00:58:46,213
And she thinks of a line
that is very important to Muslims...
896
00:58:48,215 --> 00:58:51,969
which is, "To kill one person
is to kill all of mankind,
897
00:58:52,053 --> 00:58:56,182
and to save one person
is to save all of mankind."
898
00:58:56,265 --> 00:58:58,601
And that, to her, is her motive.
899
00:58:58,684 --> 00:59:01,729
That, yes,
she has a duty to save this person.
900
00:59:01,812 --> 00:59:04,607
You don't have to save the whole world.
You can't save the whole world.
901
00:59:04,690 --> 00:59:07,777
But you are responsible for the people
in front of you right now.
902
00:59:13,657 --> 00:59:16,535
[Amanat] When we were trying
to develop Ms. Marvel and her power set,
903
00:59:16,619 --> 00:59:20,373
Willow was really adamant that Ms. Marvel
didn't have "pretty powers."
904
00:59:20,456 --> 00:59:22,666
She would say, "Traditionally,
a lot of our female characters
905
00:59:22,750 --> 00:59:26,837
either had sparkly powers
or some mind control abilities."
906
00:59:26,921 --> 00:59:30,674
So that was incredibly important to her,
to kind of break the mold in that regard.
907
00:59:30,758 --> 00:59:36,764
And the decision for Kamala
to figure out how she uses her powers
908
00:59:36,847 --> 00:59:40,810
and how she embraces her powers
and figures out her identity
909
00:59:40,893 --> 00:59:45,606
was the journey of the story
that we felt was the most powerful.
910
00:59:57,868 --> 01:00:01,956
The response to Ms. Marvel
has been incredible.
911
01:00:02,039 --> 01:00:04,166
As soon as the series was announced,
912
01:00:04,250 --> 01:00:08,087
and just the character of Kamala Khan
came out in the world,
913
01:00:08,170 --> 01:00:10,339
we had people sending us fan mail.
914
01:00:10,423 --> 01:00:14,385
It was trending before Ms. Marvel #1
had actually ever come out.
915
01:00:14,885 --> 01:00:17,888
[girl 1] My parents are from Pakistan.
I love Kamala Khan.
916
01:00:17,972 --> 01:00:19,724
All of the issues she's going through
917
01:00:19,807 --> 01:00:22,643
are the same ones
I was experiencing every day.
918
01:00:22,727 --> 01:00:25,229
[girl 2] I am very much looking forward
to this character
919
01:00:25,312 --> 01:00:27,398
because it has never actually
crossed my mind
920
01:00:27,481 --> 01:00:29,483
that someone like me could be a superhero.
921
01:00:29,567 --> 01:00:32,862
[girl 3] Thank you so very much
for Ms. Marvel.
922
01:00:32,945 --> 01:00:35,156
[Amanat] People had no idea
who Kamala Khan was.
923
01:00:35,239 --> 01:00:38,868
There was no concept of the story,
no concept of the supporting characters.
924
01:00:38,951 --> 01:00:41,579
And there was so much love
in the idea of it,
925
01:00:41,662 --> 01:00:43,789
and I realized
there was a lot of importance
926
01:00:43,873 --> 01:00:47,084
behind the character itself
because of what it meant.
927
01:00:48,252 --> 01:00:54,633
It was a stunning upset,
not just of general industry expectations,
928
01:00:54,717 --> 01:00:57,595
but of Sana's and my own expectations,
929
01:00:57,678 --> 01:01:00,514
when that first issue
went into a second printing.
930
01:01:00,598 --> 01:01:05,311
And then into a third printing. And then
into a fourth, fifth and sixth printing.
931
01:01:05,394 --> 01:01:07,063
We were interviewed by The New York Times,
932
01:01:07,146 --> 01:01:12,360
and there were people in cosplay after
the first week that it had been on stands.
933
01:01:12,443 --> 01:01:14,779
Shock doesn't cover it.
Like, I still haven't woken up.
934
01:01:14,862 --> 01:01:16,947
I'm convinced this is all a dream.
935
01:01:17,615 --> 01:01:20,117
[Amanat] No way in my wildest of dreams
936
01:01:20,201 --> 01:01:22,370
would I imagine that
a young Muslim superhero
937
01:01:22,453 --> 01:01:25,456
would be one of the most popular
new characters that we would have.
938
01:01:27,708 --> 01:01:31,712
I was very lucky to be invited
to the White House,
939
01:01:31,796 --> 01:01:35,216
when Barack Obama was president,
for Women's History Month
940
01:01:35,299 --> 01:01:39,178
celebrating different women
from different fields across the country.
941
01:01:39,261 --> 01:01:41,389
And they were like,
"Hey. Would you be interested
942
01:01:41,472 --> 01:01:45,017
in introducing
the President of the United States?"
943
01:01:45,101 --> 01:01:48,562
And I was like, "What?"
And, of course, I said yes.
944
01:01:48,646 --> 01:01:51,482
Thank you, Sana, for your incredible work.
945
01:01:51,565 --> 01:01:54,777
Ms. Marvel may be
your comic book creation,
946
01:01:54,860 --> 01:01:58,906
but I think for a lot
of young boys and girls,
947
01:01:58,989 --> 01:02:02,827
Sana's a real-life superhero.
948
01:02:02,910 --> 01:02:05,079
["On + Off" by Maggie Rogers playing]
949
01:02:14,505 --> 01:02:16,757
[Amanat] I saw the impact
that we could make
950
01:02:16,841 --> 01:02:18,884
with the types of stories
that we were telling.
951
01:02:18,968 --> 01:02:22,012
And Kamala Khan was a very natural segue,
952
01:02:22,096 --> 01:02:25,641
and I didn't even realize
I was building to it my entire life.
953
01:02:25,725 --> 01:02:28,602
It was everything
that I had always wanted to do.
954
01:02:28,686 --> 01:02:33,441
And I think once she came into the world,
it opened up this door of possibilities.
955
01:02:33,524 --> 01:02:36,110
And what that's really allowed us to do
956
01:02:36,193 --> 01:02:41,574
is to connect with a lot of different
creators that we never would have before.
957
01:02:46,662 --> 01:02:49,915
[Magruder] Marvel Rising is a new series.
958
01:02:49,999 --> 01:02:54,837
They're this new generation of superhero
in the Marvel Universe.
959
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:58,549
We have these hyper-intelligent
female characters now.
960
01:02:58,632 --> 01:03:02,803
Getting to work on these characters
just feels like a momentous opportunity
961
01:03:02,887 --> 01:03:05,139
that I didn't expect to get.
962
01:03:06,265 --> 01:03:08,476
Even when I first started
coming to comics,
963
01:03:08,559 --> 01:03:12,813
it was still very white and very male,
and so a lot of this change
964
01:03:12,897 --> 01:03:16,233
of having prominent characters of color,
965
01:03:16,317 --> 01:03:19,570
especially women and girls
of color, is very new,
966
01:03:19,653 --> 01:03:22,156
just in the last five or so years.
967
01:03:23,866 --> 01:03:26,118
I'm glad to be a part of this moment.
968
01:03:26,202 --> 01:03:28,329
This is what I was waiting for.
969
01:03:30,081 --> 01:03:34,251
The current state of comics
is beyond my wildest dreams.
970
01:03:34,335 --> 01:03:36,837
I really never dreamed
971
01:03:36,921 --> 01:03:42,385
there would be so many women doing comics
and so many girl-friendly comics.
972
01:03:43,552 --> 01:03:46,263
[Kidman] Creativity and innovation
973
01:03:46,347 --> 01:03:52,019
and access to new kinds of creators,
to more diverse creators,
974
01:03:52,103 --> 01:03:55,064
tends to come from the margins.
975
01:03:55,147 --> 01:03:57,108
[Amanat] Women have been here.
They've always been here.
976
01:03:57,983 --> 01:04:00,611
Women helped build the legacy of Marvel.
977
01:04:00,695 --> 01:04:05,533
It just stuns me when I look
at how far society has come
978
01:04:05,616 --> 01:04:07,243
and how far the industry has come.
979
01:04:07,326 --> 01:04:10,663
These days I think
there are just as many young women
980
01:04:10,746 --> 01:04:13,457
as young men interested
in careers in comics.
981
01:04:13,541 --> 01:04:18,713
But I've certainly had women
who took bullets so I wouldn't have to,
982
01:04:18,796 --> 01:04:22,007
and I hope I've done that
for the women coming after me.
983
01:04:22,091 --> 01:04:25,219
[Nocenti] I think what's great
about the women that are coming in now,
984
01:04:25,302 --> 01:04:30,433
they are trailblazers in that
they're writing narratives for females.
985
01:04:30,516 --> 01:04:35,104
How can you relate to a story
if you can't see yourself in it?
986
01:04:39,734 --> 01:04:44,822
[Amanat] It took me a long time
to find strength in my own identity
987
01:04:44,905 --> 01:04:49,410
and to really feel more confident
in who I am and what I belong to.
988
01:04:51,078 --> 01:04:54,582
[Magruder] It's great
to see women excelling at superheroes.
989
01:04:55,875 --> 01:05:00,254
I think this conversation now
about mirrors versus windows
990
01:05:00,337 --> 01:05:02,757
and, like, seeing yourself in story,
991
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:07,428
it did an amazing thing
for comics and for women readers.
992
01:05:07,511 --> 01:05:11,766
But we could still do more
to see more disability,
993
01:05:11,849 --> 01:05:14,518
to see more open queerness
in these comics,
994
01:05:14,602 --> 01:05:18,564
more Asian and Latinx
characters and writers.
995
01:05:18,647 --> 01:05:23,027
Why settle for a little
when you can just open the floodgates?
996
01:05:23,110 --> 01:05:25,821
["Back In My Body"
by Maggie Rogers playing]
997
01:05:28,657 --> 01:05:31,285
[no audible dialogue]
998
01:05:31,369 --> 01:05:33,579
[Magruder] My mother, she's so supportive.
999
01:05:33,662 --> 01:05:36,999
She lets me have the freedom
to do what I'm going to do.
1000
01:05:37,083 --> 01:05:41,337
And I can always call her
for a pep talk if I need it.
1001
01:05:42,630 --> 01:05:46,967
Now, my mom, when she sees
those old critical friends, she can say,
1002
01:05:47,051 --> 01:05:50,137
"Oh, yeah.
My daughter's working for Disney,"
1003
01:05:50,221 --> 01:05:53,766
or "She's working for Marvel, you know.
She's doing pretty fine."
1004
01:05:53,849 --> 01:05:56,394
And, you know, they didn't understand
what I was doing before,
1005
01:05:56,477 --> 01:05:58,896
but they definitely know those names.
1006
01:05:58,979 --> 01:06:01,816
So, yeah. We had the last laugh.
1007
01:06:03,567 --> 01:06:05,653
[Amanat] My dad, when I was younger,
always told me,
1008
01:06:05,736 --> 01:06:10,825
"Whatever you do, make sure
that you are trying to help people."
1009
01:06:11,450 --> 01:06:15,413
What's really satisfying
about having Ms. Marvel out there
1010
01:06:15,496 --> 01:06:18,165
is that it really directly
impacts my family.
1011
01:06:18,749 --> 01:06:20,251
My nieces and my nephews,
1012
01:06:20,334 --> 01:06:24,463
they now have this character
that reminds them of themselves.
1013
01:06:24,547 --> 01:06:26,382
Not even just for my nieces
and my nephews.
1014
01:06:26,465 --> 01:06:30,177
I just love that any kid is going to see
a character out there
1015
01:06:30,261 --> 01:06:32,304
and not just a part of everyday life.
1016
01:06:33,180 --> 01:06:37,601
["Back In My Body" continues playing]
1017
01:06:41,313 --> 01:06:44,233
[no audible dialogue]
1018
01:06:44,316 --> 01:06:49,947
[no audible dialogue]
1019
01:06:50,031 --> 01:06:52,033
[song continues]
1020
01:07:01,125 --> 01:07:04,128
[song fades out]
1021
01:07:16,557 --> 01:07:19,268
["Here We Go" playing]