1 00:00:05,756 --> 00:00:07,089 ♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 2 00:00:08,464 --> 00:00:11,172 CATHERINE: Within NXIVM, there's a secret sisterhood. 3 00:00:11,422 --> 00:00:14,172 They have to sign a lifetime vow of obedience, 4 00:00:14,547 --> 00:00:17,005 and they have to provide blackmail, 5 00:00:17,089 --> 00:00:19,297 and they're branding girls. 6 00:00:20,005 --> 00:00:21,339 I just spoke to India, 7 00:00:21,422 --> 00:00:23,381 and she did admit to being branded. 8 00:00:23,589 --> 00:00:24,881 She thought it was wonderful. 9 00:00:25,506 --> 00:00:27,422 I will do whatever I can to get India out. 10 00:00:28,089 --> 00:00:29,774 MARK: We knew there was another branding ceremony 11 00:00:29,798 --> 00:00:32,005 that was about to happen, and it was like 12 00:00:32,089 --> 00:00:35,506 "We have to get this story out and Frank will report it." 13 00:00:35,923 --> 00:00:38,464 And when he came out with the news, 14 00:00:38,881 --> 00:00:41,381 it set the whole organization into a panic. 15 00:00:42,339 --> 00:00:45,089 The idea was not just to expose what was going on. 16 00:00:45,714 --> 00:00:47,474 It was about getting people away from danger. 17 00:00:48,130 --> 00:00:50,964 This organization has taken my child. 18 00:00:51,214 --> 00:00:54,964 I will do whatever it takes to get her back. 19 00:00:55,381 --> 00:00:56,631 ♪ (MUSIC CONCLUDES) ♪ 20 00:01:05,172 --> 00:01:06,839 (camera beeps) 21 00:01:06,923 --> 00:01:10,047 Mark Vicente: And... whenever you're ready. 22 00:01:10,130 --> 00:01:12,714 You know, like, here we're doing this, you know, wonderful, 23 00:01:12,798 --> 00:01:14,214 idealistic movement, 24 00:01:14,297 --> 00:01:15,756 and we're trying to create something, 25 00:01:15,839 --> 00:01:18,547 and we have created something that just produces value. 26 00:01:18,631 --> 00:01:20,214 Enhances people's lives. 27 00:01:20,297 --> 00:01:22,937 And we're just minding our own business and doing this great thing, 28 00:01:23,005 --> 00:01:24,881 and we're just being attacked. 29 00:01:24,964 --> 00:01:27,089 So, I just feel determined. 30 00:01:27,172 --> 00:01:30,130 You know, like, "Motherfucker." You know? 31 00:01:30,214 --> 00:01:32,297 Like, how could they do this to us? 32 00:01:32,381 --> 00:01:34,964 When I think of how destructive that is, 33 00:01:35,047 --> 00:01:38,089 I think, "Oh, my God. That is just heinous." 34 00:01:38,172 --> 00:01:40,422 We're gonna uncover all these things, 35 00:01:40,506 --> 00:01:43,089 and then people are gonna say, "Don't fuck with those people, 36 00:01:43,172 --> 00:01:46,089 because, you know, they'll come after you." 37 00:01:46,172 --> 00:01:48,464 You know? "They will, they will figure it out. 38 00:01:48,547 --> 00:01:50,089 "They will... They won't let it go. 39 00:01:50,172 --> 00:01:53,297 They're not... They don't let things slide." 40 00:01:53,381 --> 00:01:55,839 (Kristin Keeffe continues) 41 00:02:02,506 --> 00:02:04,839 (laughs) 42 00:02:05,339 --> 00:02:07,130 Yeah! 43 00:02:14,756 --> 00:02:18,005 ("Dream State" by Son Lux playing) 44 00:02:20,047 --> 00:02:22,005 ♪ Days we were young ♪ 45 00:02:22,089 --> 00:02:27,631 ♪ We took photographs of everything we could see ♪ 46 00:02:27,714 --> 00:02:31,381 ♪ We had to run from it ♪ 47 00:02:31,464 --> 00:02:33,339 ♪ Priest and prophetess ♪ 48 00:02:33,422 --> 00:02:38,339 ♪ We were nothing we would defy ♪ 49 00:02:39,297 --> 00:02:43,422 ♪ Oh, invisible skin ♪ 50 00:02:43,506 --> 00:02:46,547 ♪ Where is the world within ♪ 51 00:02:47,381 --> 00:02:49,547 ♪ Invincible skin ♪ 52 00:02:49,631 --> 00:02:52,673 ♪ It's how we all begin ♪ 53 00:02:58,422 --> 00:03:00,381 (birds chirping) 54 00:03:08,339 --> 00:03:10,297 (baby babbling) 55 00:03:10,381 --> 00:03:11,923 Sarah Edmondson: He asks about Albany. 56 00:03:12,005 --> 00:03:15,255 He's like, "Mommy, when are we going back to Albany?" 57 00:03:17,422 --> 00:03:20,062 - I wanna get down. I wanna get down. - What about your sweatshirt? 58 00:03:20,089 --> 00:03:21,756 - I wanna get... I want... - Ooh. 59 00:03:21,839 --> 00:03:24,381 What about your sweatshirt? You wanna put it on like a cape? 60 00:03:24,464 --> 00:03:25,899 - Troy: Yeah. - Put it on like a cape. 61 00:03:25,923 --> 00:03:28,005 I'm gonna give you this jacket in case (indistinct). 62 00:03:28,089 --> 00:03:31,798 - Troy: Superman! - Edmondson: Good? 63 00:03:32,464 --> 00:03:34,756 Bye, Troy. Love you! 64 00:03:37,339 --> 00:03:39,106 Edmondson: So I got a call from the police officer 65 00:03:39,130 --> 00:03:41,547 from the financial crimes unit in Vancouver 66 00:03:41,631 --> 00:03:45,381 saying that they were trying to get me arrested on three fronts: 67 00:03:45,464 --> 00:03:48,673 fraud, mischief, and theft. 68 00:03:48,756 --> 00:03:52,381 I knew this was coming, because I'd heard 69 00:03:52,464 --> 00:03:55,255 through someone who was kind of playing both sides 70 00:03:55,339 --> 00:03:57,631 that they were preparing a legal case against me. 71 00:03:57,714 --> 00:03:59,756 That's when I called Jim, 72 00:03:59,839 --> 00:04:03,214 because he was one of the main leaders of SOP, 73 00:04:03,297 --> 00:04:06,923 and also, I considered him to be a friend. 74 00:04:18,881 --> 00:04:20,047 Jim Del Negro: Yeah. 75 00:04:40,673 --> 00:04:45,047 (Edmondson speaking) 76 00:05:07,714 --> 00:05:11,714 - Del Negro: Mm-hmm. - (Edmondson speaking) 77 00:05:51,923 --> 00:05:54,089 Edmondson: I really don't. 78 00:05:56,422 --> 00:06:00,047 (Edmondson speaking) 79 00:06:12,756 --> 00:06:15,589 Nippy Ames: I'm not angry at the people still in. I understand it. 80 00:06:15,673 --> 00:06:18,339 I've been on that side of it. 81 00:06:18,422 --> 00:06:20,881 Jim and a couple other friends are the ones that, like, 82 00:06:20,964 --> 00:06:23,923 as I'm sitting here, I'm struggling to... 83 00:06:24,005 --> 00:06:26,339 you know, I, I still feel... 84 00:06:31,673 --> 00:06:34,130 I still feel like they're my buddies, you know? 85 00:06:34,214 --> 00:06:35,714 And I feel... 86 00:06:35,798 --> 00:06:37,464 You know, I spoke to him and Mark, 87 00:06:37,547 --> 00:06:38,881 you know, almost every other day. 88 00:06:38,964 --> 00:06:41,756 And he showed me 89 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,839 a level of compassion that, you know, from a guy, 90 00:06:44,923 --> 00:06:47,130 you might even think is somewhat uncomfortable. 91 00:06:47,214 --> 00:06:48,881 But, you know, he showed me love, 92 00:06:48,964 --> 00:06:52,464 uh, in a way that, you know, another guy hadn't. 93 00:06:52,547 --> 00:06:53,964 He, he hung in there with me, 94 00:06:54,047 --> 00:06:56,047 and he really helped me, where I just didn't have 95 00:06:56,130 --> 00:06:57,714 certain skill sets in certain areas, 96 00:06:57,798 --> 00:06:59,673 and he goes, "I know you to want these things, 97 00:06:59,756 --> 00:07:00,981 "and when you behave like this, 98 00:07:01,005 --> 00:07:02,565 you undermine the things that you want." 99 00:07:02,631 --> 00:07:04,732 You know, he was the kind of guy who could tell me that, 100 00:07:04,756 --> 00:07:06,130 much like a brother could. 101 00:07:06,214 --> 00:07:08,506 Del Negro: I think a lot of times, we're doers. 102 00:07:08,589 --> 00:07:11,214 And men, we like to accomplish things. 103 00:07:11,297 --> 00:07:13,255 And sometimes, that gets in the way 104 00:07:13,339 --> 00:07:14,839 of our relationships with each other 105 00:07:14,923 --> 00:07:16,297 and standing up for each other. 106 00:07:16,381 --> 00:07:17,756 And there's nobody that I know 107 00:07:17,839 --> 00:07:19,923 that does that and represents that more 108 00:07:20,005 --> 00:07:21,547 than Keith Raniere. 109 00:07:21,631 --> 00:07:23,714 So, I give you Keith Raniere. 110 00:07:23,798 --> 00:07:26,589 (applauding) 111 00:07:26,673 --> 00:07:30,089 Ames: And that's the hard part of this whole thing. 112 00:07:30,172 --> 00:07:34,172 He's, you know, loyal to Keith, I think to a fault. 113 00:07:34,255 --> 00:07:37,506 ♪ 114 00:07:44,714 --> 00:07:47,964 Vicente: We kept getting information through people that were 115 00:07:48,047 --> 00:07:49,881 on the inside, straddling things, 116 00:07:49,964 --> 00:07:51,844 that realized things were bad, but didn't wanna, 117 00:07:51,923 --> 00:07:54,839 y ou know, make a big fuss. That basically said, you know, 118 00:07:54,923 --> 00:07:57,464 message is the legal dogs have been released, 119 00:07:57,547 --> 00:08:00,756 and that I am going to be considered the enemy. 120 00:08:02,589 --> 00:08:04,798 Well, he's gonna find a way to get us. 121 00:08:04,881 --> 00:08:07,464 He has an army of people, about a hundred strong, 122 00:08:07,547 --> 00:08:09,339 who are so devoted. 123 00:08:10,381 --> 00:08:13,381 They will sell us out. They will lie about us. 124 00:08:13,464 --> 00:08:15,130 They will make up stuff about us. 125 00:08:15,214 --> 00:08:17,297 They will do everything they possibly can 126 00:08:17,381 --> 00:08:20,547 to try to convince the world that we're criminals. 127 00:08:20,631 --> 00:08:22,381 So we're up against not only him, 128 00:08:22,464 --> 00:08:24,506 but all of his agents, as well. 129 00:08:27,631 --> 00:08:29,339 When other people were leaving... 130 00:08:29,422 --> 00:08:31,231 Bonnie Piesse: It was like he didn't want to get contaminated 131 00:08:31,255 --> 00:08:33,047 - by the evil, right? - Yeah. 132 00:08:33,130 --> 00:08:35,339 At that point, I trusted Keith completely. 133 00:08:35,422 --> 00:08:37,339 You think they're, like, the most ethical... 134 00:08:37,422 --> 00:08:40,297 - Completely. - ...noble people in the world. 135 00:08:55,589 --> 00:08:57,506 (line ringing) 136 00:08:57,589 --> 00:08:58,923 Vicente: Hello? 137 00:08:59,005 --> 00:09:01,381 - Keeffe (over phone): Hey. - How's it going? 138 00:09:01,464 --> 00:09:02,964 Keeffe (over phone): Good. 139 00:09:14,964 --> 00:09:16,422 Vicente: Mm-hmm. 140 00:09:24,547 --> 00:09:26,339 ♪ 141 00:09:26,422 --> 00:09:31,714 Vicente: Kristin Keeffe was a proctor in ESP. 142 00:09:31,798 --> 00:09:34,089 And she was the legal liaison for a long time. 143 00:09:34,172 --> 00:09:37,589 In fact, she worked with the lawyers on all of the lawsuits. 144 00:09:42,798 --> 00:09:46,714 "I'm thinking of sit, like, doing, like, belts, like martial arts, 145 00:09:46,798 --> 00:09:48,255 but instead of judo, sashes." 146 00:09:48,339 --> 00:09:51,214 And I was like, "Keith, you can't do that. That's so queer." 147 00:09:51,297 --> 00:09:53,673 But like, that... I remember that very specifically. 148 00:09:53,756 --> 00:09:55,172 You were like... 149 00:10:01,172 --> 00:10:02,464 (laughs) Yeah. 150 00:10:02,547 --> 00:10:05,714 Vicente: She seemed very close to Keith Raniere, as well. 151 00:10:07,547 --> 00:10:10,214 But then she suddenly just disappeared, 152 00:10:10,297 --> 00:10:12,923 and I didn't know why. 153 00:10:13,005 --> 00:10:15,673 And I found out later she ran, 154 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:19,464 because she had a baby with Keith Raniere. 155 00:10:21,172 --> 00:10:23,440 Keith Raniere: Anywhere in your body that there's a sensation 156 00:10:23,464 --> 00:10:27,089 that you try to... try to ignore, or try to suppress, 157 00:10:27,172 --> 00:10:29,714 it just gets stronger and stronger. 158 00:10:29,798 --> 00:10:34,047 And perhaps there are areas in your body you haven't noticed before. 159 00:10:34,130 --> 00:10:37,381 Like certainly you've noticed your stomach, at times. 160 00:10:37,464 --> 00:10:40,673 And maybe the sensation in your stomach now 161 00:10:40,756 --> 00:10:42,881 is changing, 162 00:10:42,964 --> 00:10:46,089 but not going away. Maybe intensifying. 163 00:10:46,172 --> 00:10:49,214 Maybe not. But probably intensifying. 164 00:10:49,297 --> 00:10:51,714 You may even be coming less comfortable. 165 00:10:51,798 --> 00:10:54,422 But that's okay. 166 00:10:54,506 --> 00:10:57,214 I guess you're not gonna let me finish my report. 167 00:10:57,297 --> 00:10:59,631 - No, you're almost done. - I'm, I'm trying to read. 168 00:10:59,714 --> 00:11:02,839 - Yeah, that's okay. You can finish your report. - Can you... can you stop? 169 00:11:02,923 --> 00:11:06,047 I, I can stop, and you wanna know what else? 170 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:07,798 I will stop. 171 00:11:07,881 --> 00:11:09,172 Right. 172 00:11:10,339 --> 00:11:11,547 Sorta. 173 00:11:12,005 --> 00:11:14,381 (typing) 174 00:11:23,381 --> 00:11:25,255 - Vicente: Right. - (Keeffe continues) 175 00:11:26,798 --> 00:11:28,589 - Vicente: Yeah. - (Keeffe continues) 176 00:11:29,506 --> 00:11:30,506 Vicente: Mm-hmm. 177 00:11:30,589 --> 00:11:34,255 ♪ 178 00:11:37,756 --> 00:11:39,673 Vicente: What I was told was, 179 00:11:39,756 --> 00:11:42,047 when you officially resign, 180 00:11:42,130 --> 00:11:45,005 give it a few weeks. She'll reach out to you. 181 00:11:45,089 --> 00:11:47,756 It's fuckin' full espionage shit. 182 00:11:47,839 --> 00:11:49,381 And she does. 183 00:11:49,464 --> 00:11:51,005 And it's burner phones, man. 184 00:11:51,089 --> 00:11:52,923 Fuckin' different numbers every week. 185 00:11:53,005 --> 00:11:56,255 Just fuckin' never know where she is, and like, 186 00:11:56,339 --> 00:11:58,172 we're talking all the time. 187 00:12:08,297 --> 00:12:10,255 Vicente: And so that's when she says to me, 188 00:12:10,339 --> 00:12:14,798 "I can help you." And a few days later, we called Sarah. 189 00:12:35,881 --> 00:12:37,506 Vicente: Hmm. 190 00:12:57,839 --> 00:13:00,673 Vicente: Clare Bronfman, heir to the Seagram's fortune, 191 00:13:00,756 --> 00:13:03,673 is the financier of NXIVM. 192 00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:07,005 But when I first came in, she was a coach. 193 00:13:26,964 --> 00:13:28,673 Vicente: Right. 194 00:13:30,839 --> 00:13:33,297 Vicente: But, she eventually took control of legal. 195 00:13:33,381 --> 00:13:36,089 She's on the executive board. So she had more and more power, 196 00:13:36,172 --> 00:13:38,631 you know, as the years went on. 197 00:13:38,714 --> 00:13:41,964 At this point, in essence, she's funding a lot of the lawsuits 198 00:13:42,047 --> 00:13:44,631 against the perceived enemies of ESP. 199 00:13:44,714 --> 00:13:47,714 She was probably told it was the ethical thing to do. 200 00:14:36,339 --> 00:14:39,005 Okay, so a number of things were happening 201 00:14:39,089 --> 00:14:43,589 in ESP and the company that weren't necessarily good. 202 00:14:43,673 --> 00:14:47,047 Did you guys have a chance to do any research on NXIVM? 203 00:14:47,130 --> 00:14:48,964 Edmondson: This is like Scientology. 204 00:14:49,047 --> 00:14:51,214 It is a cult, where the leader 205 00:14:51,297 --> 00:14:54,547 is keeping people through fear and dependency 206 00:14:54,631 --> 00:14:56,714 and now, blackmail. 207 00:14:56,798 --> 00:14:58,923 I can't spell NXIVM for the life of me. 208 00:14:59,005 --> 00:15:02,839 Vicente: ESP has had about 15,000 people go through it. 209 00:15:02,923 --> 00:15:05,464 In terms of permanent members, 210 00:15:05,547 --> 00:15:07,464 it's probably 700 to 800 people. 211 00:15:07,547 --> 00:15:10,589 What happened was, I was invited into this women's group... 212 00:15:10,673 --> 00:15:12,589 The secret society is called DOS. 213 00:15:12,673 --> 00:15:13,673 DOS. D-O-S. 214 00:15:13,714 --> 00:15:17,547 Edmondson: Dominus obsequious sororium. 215 00:15:17,631 --> 00:15:20,881 Which I believe means "dominant over submissive" or something like that. 216 00:15:20,964 --> 00:15:24,589 By the way, DOS does not stand for "dominant over submissive." 217 00:15:24,673 --> 00:15:25,756 I made one error. 218 00:15:25,839 --> 00:15:28,089 That means "dominant submissive sorority." 219 00:15:28,172 --> 00:15:32,172 I think there are about at least 50 women in this secret society. 220 00:15:32,255 --> 00:15:35,923 You are aware, I'm sure, that my daughter is a DOS slave at this point. 221 00:15:36,005 --> 00:15:40,130 The girls were branded in a branding ceremony. 222 00:15:40,214 --> 00:15:44,089 Man (over phone): This business was ESP, right? 223 00:15:44,172 --> 00:15:47,631 - Woman (over phone): N-X-I-V-M? - Yes. 224 00:15:47,714 --> 00:15:50,547 Just point me in the right direction. I'm, like, a distraught mom. 225 00:15:50,631 --> 00:15:52,714 I will... I will knock on anybody's door. 226 00:15:52,798 --> 00:15:55,172 I don't care anymore if I'm prepared, not prepared. 227 00:15:55,255 --> 00:15:58,422 I've been living with this for months now. I can't take it. 228 00:15:58,506 --> 00:16:01,339 ♪ 229 00:16:04,839 --> 00:16:07,756 Vicente: This morning Sarah contacted 230 00:16:07,839 --> 00:16:10,297 the head of victim services in Latham, New York. 231 00:16:10,381 --> 00:16:15,297 Uh, she referred Sarah to an investigator in the police department. 232 00:16:15,381 --> 00:16:20,297 So, Sarah spoke to him and I'm waiting to hear from her. 233 00:16:20,381 --> 00:16:23,047 (laptop jingling) 234 00:16:23,130 --> 00:16:25,089 - Vicente: Hey. - Edmondson (over laptop): Hi. 235 00:16:25,172 --> 00:16:28,255 Vicente: I have, uh, Catherine here, and Bonnie here, as well. 236 00:16:28,339 --> 00:16:29,839 Hi. 237 00:16:29,923 --> 00:16:31,714 Women: Hey, Sarah. 238 00:16:31,798 --> 00:16:33,631 Vicente: So, the investigator. 239 00:16:33,714 --> 00:16:37,506 - Edmondson: Yeah. - Vicente: What was his conclusion so far? 240 00:16:37,589 --> 00:16:40,297 Edmondson: Um, that it's definitely fucked up. 241 00:16:40,381 --> 00:16:43,881 He's not totally sure where the crimes are. Um... 242 00:16:44,881 --> 00:16:46,047 Yeah. 243 00:16:49,422 --> 00:16:51,798 You look like you need a rest. 244 00:16:53,297 --> 00:16:56,089 Catherine Oxenberg: I'm sending you love from here. 245 00:16:57,964 --> 00:17:00,172 I feel it. Thank you. 246 00:17:00,255 --> 00:17:03,255 ♪ 247 00:17:05,589 --> 00:17:08,172 Oxenberg: What else can we do? 248 00:17:08,255 --> 00:17:11,255 Vicente: Speak. I mean, how do you get 249 00:17:11,339 --> 00:17:14,255 law enforcement to move in this country? 250 00:17:14,339 --> 00:17:17,130 You fuckin' blow it up in the press. 251 00:17:19,255 --> 00:17:22,923 ♪ 252 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:30,130 Barry Meier (over phone): Uh... 253 00:17:39,172 --> 00:17:40,089 Okay. 254 00:17:40,172 --> 00:17:43,339 (Meier speaking) 255 00:17:43,422 --> 00:17:44,422 Vicente: Twelve years. 256 00:17:44,464 --> 00:17:46,839 I was one of the highest-ranking 257 00:17:46,923 --> 00:17:49,339 male members that's ever defected. 258 00:17:50,130 --> 00:17:52,881 (Meier speaking) 259 00:17:52,964 --> 00:17:55,631 Well, there is no, there is no good way to leave this organization. 260 00:17:55,714 --> 00:17:59,798 You are usually harassed, spied on, et cetera, et cetera. 261 00:17:59,881 --> 00:18:02,464 (Meier speaking) 262 00:18:02,547 --> 00:18:04,881 Vicente: There are members in our group of people 263 00:18:04,964 --> 00:18:07,297 that have left that have had threats. 264 00:18:07,381 --> 00:18:11,422 Now, we have spoken to law enforcement. 265 00:18:11,506 --> 00:18:13,756 Uh, there is this Frank Report thing out, 266 00:18:13,839 --> 00:18:16,214 but it's a very marginal website. 267 00:18:16,297 --> 00:18:17,964 And we began thinking, you know, 268 00:18:18,047 --> 00:18:21,255 what needs to happen is a reputable source 269 00:18:21,339 --> 00:18:23,047 needs to look at this, 270 00:18:23,130 --> 00:18:26,172 and, and I'll tell you, there's a lot of reading you can do 271 00:18:26,255 --> 00:18:28,047 to understand the larger story. And in fact, 272 00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:32,005 there was an article in "Forbes" magazine. 273 00:18:34,005 --> 00:18:37,130 There were many articles from the "Times Union." 274 00:18:39,506 --> 00:18:43,422 There were many sort of breaking news-type stories about 275 00:18:43,506 --> 00:18:46,839 different women that left the organization. 276 00:18:48,506 --> 00:18:52,464 (Meier speaking) 277 00:18:52,547 --> 00:18:55,756 Pretty much all of it. I was sleeping very, very little. 278 00:18:55,839 --> 00:18:59,756 I was dedicating my time to constantly solving different problems. 279 00:18:59,839 --> 00:19:02,214 I put my career on hold. 280 00:19:07,547 --> 00:19:10,381 My first year that I was kind of around, in and out, 281 00:19:10,464 --> 00:19:12,673 I went to Keith Raniere and I said, 282 00:19:12,756 --> 00:19:14,464 "This bad press is a real problem." 283 00:19:14,547 --> 00:19:18,714 And he's like, "Eh, not really." I'm like, "What?" 284 00:19:57,214 --> 00:19:58,881 Vicente: Right. 285 00:19:59,589 --> 00:20:01,130 (line ringing) 286 00:20:01,214 --> 00:20:02,839 Vicente: He said to me, 287 00:20:02,923 --> 00:20:05,506 "Fearful people that can't think critically 288 00:20:05,589 --> 00:20:08,464 "hear something, and freak out. 289 00:20:09,714 --> 00:20:11,589 "We don't want those people. 290 00:20:11,673 --> 00:20:14,005 "We want the people that can reason things out. 291 00:20:14,089 --> 00:20:17,005 "The ones that just, don't just freak out over nothing. 292 00:20:17,089 --> 00:20:18,839 We want the critical thinkers." 293 00:20:18,923 --> 00:20:22,047 And I was like, "That is brilliant." 294 00:20:22,130 --> 00:20:24,172 (line ringing) 295 00:20:24,255 --> 00:20:26,464 (Vicente speaking) 296 00:20:48,297 --> 00:20:50,881 - (beeps) -Vicente: And I would say it with such confidence. 297 00:20:50,964 --> 00:20:54,047 Because, like, in some ways, it's the guardian at the gate 298 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:57,005 to make sure that we get the best. 299 00:20:57,673 --> 00:21:01,005 Camera. Marker. 300 00:21:01,089 --> 00:21:02,631 Vicente: From the moment I get there, 301 00:21:02,714 --> 00:21:05,339 they want me to figure out how to make the film 302 00:21:05,422 --> 00:21:08,756 to exonerate Keith of all this terrible press. 303 00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:11,464 And me and Keith and Kristin Keeffe and a bunch of people 304 00:21:11,547 --> 00:21:13,464 begin having a discussion about, like, 305 00:21:13,547 --> 00:21:17,047 how do we show that what's been done to Keith in the press 306 00:21:17,130 --> 00:21:18,547 is horrible, 307 00:21:18,631 --> 00:21:21,130 and this is the very problem in civilization. 308 00:21:21,214 --> 00:21:23,589 That when somebody tries to do extraordinary things, 309 00:21:23,673 --> 00:21:24,923 they get suppressed. 310 00:21:25,005 --> 00:21:27,422 And we start shooting this pro-Raniere 311 00:21:27,506 --> 00:21:28,923 anti-cult film, 312 00:21:29,005 --> 00:21:31,339 and it was basically to vindicate him. 313 00:21:32,923 --> 00:21:36,214 To think that Keith and Nancy's names would go down as... 314 00:21:36,297 --> 00:21:38,422 They would go down in history as schmucks, 315 00:21:38,506 --> 00:21:40,464 when in my opinion they're both, 316 00:21:40,547 --> 00:21:44,172 you know, intellectual and humanitarian giants. 317 00:21:44,255 --> 00:21:45,631 Uh, I can't live with that. 318 00:21:45,714 --> 00:21:47,464 'Cause I understand that, 319 00:21:47,547 --> 00:21:49,190 you know, reality isn't what it looks like. 320 00:21:49,214 --> 00:21:51,798 And I understand that justice doesn't happen. 321 00:21:51,881 --> 00:21:53,798 You got to make justice happen. 322 00:21:53,881 --> 00:21:57,130 So, I just feel determined. 323 00:21:57,214 --> 00:21:59,756 Vicente: We spent years and years planning this film, 324 00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:03,005 but never made it, because the bad press just kept on coming out, 325 00:22:03,089 --> 00:22:06,881 and we had to keep on coming up with different strategies, 326 00:22:06,964 --> 00:22:09,381 which we never could. 327 00:22:09,464 --> 00:22:12,756 So, this is when the story gets even more interesting. 328 00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:16,255 So, Raniere tells me that the, the issue is 329 00:22:17,089 --> 00:22:18,798 all the negative press 330 00:22:18,881 --> 00:22:22,547 is written by journalists who, in essence, are being paid off, 331 00:22:22,631 --> 00:22:25,881 funded in extremely high level in the world, 332 00:22:25,964 --> 00:22:28,506 with billions of dollars behind it. 333 00:22:28,589 --> 00:22:32,172 Because, you know, you have young, fairly open-minded children 334 00:22:32,255 --> 00:22:35,005 from very powerful families come to take ESP, 335 00:22:35,089 --> 00:22:37,673 as apparently happened with the Bronfmans, 336 00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:39,839 who came in 2002. 337 00:22:39,923 --> 00:22:42,506 And suddenly saw the world differently. 338 00:22:42,589 --> 00:22:44,714 ♪ ♪ 339 00:23:55,964 --> 00:23:58,339 Vicente: So what happens if they stop responding 340 00:23:58,422 --> 00:24:03,422 to the parental pressures that they used to respond to? 341 00:24:03,506 --> 00:24:07,381 And Keith would explain, "Their family's extremely powerful, 342 00:24:07,464 --> 00:24:10,506 and they see this as a threat, and they come after me." 343 00:24:13,005 --> 00:24:16,756 I was told that Clare Bronfman got upset one day, 344 00:24:16,839 --> 00:24:18,130 told her father something, 345 00:24:18,214 --> 00:24:21,214 and her father tried to destroy ESP and the mission. 346 00:24:23,047 --> 00:24:25,339 He was behind the "Forbes" article. 347 00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:33,506 She was basically responsible for a lot of the bad press. 348 00:24:33,589 --> 00:24:36,589 That was considered her breach. 349 00:24:51,214 --> 00:24:53,422 Vicente: And so it seemed like she was gonna spend 350 00:24:53,506 --> 00:24:57,547 the rest of her life fixing it, at Raniere's behest, I guess. 351 00:25:04,506 --> 00:25:06,631 Oxenberg: I really struggled with 352 00:25:06,714 --> 00:25:08,339 the idea of going to the press. 353 00:25:08,422 --> 00:25:11,381 That being said, I'd been speaking with Barry Meier. 354 00:25:11,464 --> 00:25:13,756 And I said to him, "I want this to be 355 00:25:13,839 --> 00:25:16,089 "a piece that could impact 356 00:25:16,172 --> 00:25:20,506 "a broader range of people into really understanding 357 00:25:20,589 --> 00:25:22,422 the danger of this." 358 00:25:22,506 --> 00:25:26,089 ♪ 359 00:25:28,047 --> 00:25:30,297 I'm coming to pick up my mother. 360 00:25:30,381 --> 00:25:33,339 Because she's coming to give me some emotional support right now, 361 00:25:33,422 --> 00:25:37,881 because I was feeling particularly alone in this fight, 362 00:25:37,964 --> 00:25:40,673 as far as my family's concerned. 363 00:25:40,756 --> 00:25:42,506 (indistinct chatter) 364 00:25:42,589 --> 00:25:45,673 - Hello, Mama. Oh. - (kisses) 365 00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:49,214 - You made it! - (indistinct) 366 00:25:49,297 --> 00:25:51,089 (laughs) That's cute. 367 00:25:57,798 --> 00:26:00,559 - Princess Elizabeth: No. No, I don't think so. - Oxenberg: You don't. 368 00:26:13,798 --> 00:26:14,923 To the girl... 369 00:26:26,631 --> 00:26:27,798 Yep. 370 00:26:32,005 --> 00:26:33,005 Mm-hmm. 371 00:26:41,756 --> 00:26:43,839 Oxenberg: Yes, this is a slightly... 372 00:26:47,673 --> 00:26:49,130 It's ghastly. 373 00:26:58,464 --> 00:27:00,464 Princess Elizabeth: Yes. She will. 374 00:27:12,506 --> 00:27:15,923 ♪ 375 00:27:24,381 --> 00:27:26,482 Oxenberg: I mean, there are people in that organization 376 00:27:26,506 --> 00:27:28,964 that don't have relationships with their families anymore, 377 00:27:29,047 --> 00:27:31,381 and they're not young anymore like her. 378 00:27:31,464 --> 00:27:33,589 They've dedicated their entire life to 379 00:27:33,673 --> 00:27:36,172 upholding this ideology. 380 00:29:02,047 --> 00:29:06,005 I think that the whole idea about having him come was to basically... 381 00:29:07,339 --> 00:29:09,089 vindicate Raniere. 382 00:29:09,172 --> 00:29:11,923 And then what happened is, that event got canceled. 383 00:29:14,422 --> 00:29:16,881 Because there was a lot of negative press, 384 00:29:16,964 --> 00:29:18,255 the Dalai Lama was pressured, 385 00:29:18,339 --> 00:29:20,148 and he said something to the effect of, you know, 386 00:29:20,172 --> 00:29:23,464 "We need to examine these things before we take the next step." 387 00:29:26,506 --> 00:29:29,964 That's when myself, Nancy Salzman, Sara Bronfman, 388 00:29:30,047 --> 00:29:31,923 and Keith Raniere went to Dharamsala 389 00:29:32,005 --> 00:29:33,589 to try to convince the Dalai Lama 390 00:29:33,673 --> 00:29:36,089 that, you know, Keith Raniere was a good guy, 391 00:29:36,172 --> 00:29:37,339 and to please come. 392 00:29:37,422 --> 00:29:40,964 And so, I went to document the whole meeting. 393 00:29:41,047 --> 00:29:42,857 - Raniere: It's that way. - Nancy Salzman: Which way? 394 00:29:42,881 --> 00:29:44,297 There it is. 395 00:29:45,339 --> 00:29:47,964 (motorcycle rumbling) 396 00:29:48,047 --> 00:29:52,964 ♪ 397 00:30:07,464 --> 00:30:09,881 - (Dalai Lama speaking) - Raniere: Good morning. 398 00:30:19,381 --> 00:30:20,839 Yes. 399 00:30:20,923 --> 00:30:24,923 I guess first and foremost, I wanted to apologize. 400 00:30:26,297 --> 00:30:30,881 I... The things written about me are not true. 401 00:30:30,964 --> 00:30:33,089 To the best of my knowledge, 402 00:30:33,172 --> 00:30:36,297 the factual information is not true. 403 00:30:36,381 --> 00:30:39,881 But it is my responsibility, 404 00:30:39,964 --> 00:30:42,255 and I do want to change that. 405 00:30:43,798 --> 00:30:45,923 (speaking English) 406 00:31:10,089 --> 00:31:11,589 Man: Precautions. 407 00:31:36,756 --> 00:31:38,440 Advisor: The different things proven against him 408 00:31:38,464 --> 00:31:40,756 and he has lawsuits against others. 409 00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:42,714 These are going on, right? 410 00:31:42,798 --> 00:31:45,089 Are they all settled? All lawsuits are settled? 411 00:31:47,214 --> 00:31:49,273 Advisor: There's no lawsuit... Don't you have lawsuits against, uh... 412 00:31:49,297 --> 00:31:50,589 We've actually... 413 00:31:50,673 --> 00:31:53,714 Yeah. Can I give you a little bit of the history? 414 00:31:53,798 --> 00:31:56,339 - Advisor: Sure. - Um... 415 00:31:56,422 --> 00:32:00,964 It... It is my belief that all of the accusations against us 416 00:32:01,047 --> 00:32:02,255 are not true. 417 00:32:02,339 --> 00:32:04,089 - Advisor: Okay. - Um... 418 00:32:04,172 --> 00:32:07,714 - And there's never... Now... - Advisor: Yes. 419 00:32:07,798 --> 00:32:09,047 Um... 420 00:32:09,130 --> 00:32:12,255 The things that are said are not only 421 00:32:12,339 --> 00:32:13,839 just opinion, 422 00:32:13,923 --> 00:32:16,381 but the facts that they use are incorrect 423 00:32:16,464 --> 00:32:19,089 to propagate that we are cult, we are a cult, we are cult 424 00:32:19,172 --> 00:32:20,881 with no evidence. 425 00:32:26,964 --> 00:32:29,923 (laughing) Right? 426 00:32:30,005 --> 00:32:31,839 (indistinct chatter) 427 00:32:39,506 --> 00:32:42,422 Dalai Lama: And he's dedicated for some good things. 428 00:32:42,506 --> 00:32:44,172 - Isn't it? - Advisor: Okay. 429 00:32:45,381 --> 00:32:47,172 - So, thank you. - Dalai Lama: Okay. 430 00:32:48,381 --> 00:32:50,631 Bye-bye. Bye-bye. See you again tomorrow. 431 00:32:50,714 --> 00:32:53,172 Vicente: And at the very end of the tail end of the meeting, 432 00:32:53,255 --> 00:32:56,172 um, somehow, he said yes. 433 00:32:56,255 --> 00:32:58,130 You know, and this was the moment that Raniere 434 00:32:58,214 --> 00:32:59,547 would be finally vindicated. 435 00:33:14,214 --> 00:33:15,255 Yes. 436 00:33:31,422 --> 00:33:34,089 ♪ 437 00:33:34,172 --> 00:33:37,089 Vicente: But despite our win with the Dalai Lama, 438 00:33:37,172 --> 00:33:41,005 the bad press just kept on coming. 439 00:33:41,089 --> 00:33:43,339 Jim Odato: He has been involved with several women 440 00:33:43,422 --> 00:33:46,464 younger than 16 years old. 441 00:33:46,547 --> 00:33:49,881 The girl pictured here lost her virginity to Keith Raniere 442 00:33:49,964 --> 00:33:51,673 at age 15 or 16. 443 00:33:51,756 --> 00:33:53,089 Her older sister says, 444 00:33:53,172 --> 00:33:55,214 "He had told her that she was a bodhisattva, 445 00:33:55,297 --> 00:33:58,964 whose soul could be much older than her biological age." 446 00:33:59,047 --> 00:34:02,589 Hutchinson killed herself outside a Buddhist monastery 447 00:34:02,673 --> 00:34:04,714 a t age 33. 448 00:34:04,798 --> 00:34:06,589 Vicente: When 2012 rolled around 449 00:34:06,673 --> 00:34:09,255 and the "Times Union" article came out, I read the whole thing. 450 00:34:09,339 --> 00:34:10,881 That disturbed the hell out of me. 451 00:34:10,964 --> 00:34:13,047 That was a lot to take in. 452 00:34:13,130 --> 00:34:17,130 ♪ 453 00:34:19,047 --> 00:34:21,506 But we were trained for years 454 00:34:21,589 --> 00:34:23,381 to think that the most honorable thing 455 00:34:23,464 --> 00:34:24,923 is to maintain silence. 456 00:34:25,005 --> 00:34:27,005 To hold this position of 457 00:34:27,089 --> 00:34:29,923 nobility against these terrible things in the media. 458 00:34:30,005 --> 00:34:32,381 And at that time, as a fervent believer, 459 00:34:32,464 --> 00:34:34,523 of course one of my first calls was to Keith Raniere saying, 460 00:34:34,547 --> 00:34:35,964 you know, "I think we should talk." 461 00:34:36,047 --> 00:34:38,631 But he was very well-prepared for these things. 462 00:34:38,714 --> 00:34:40,964 He had answers for everything. 463 00:34:41,047 --> 00:34:42,964 You know, we get the negative press, 464 00:34:43,047 --> 00:34:45,297 - and I, I think I know where it comes from. - Mm-hmm. 465 00:34:45,381 --> 00:34:47,547 But the good side of it is, 466 00:34:47,631 --> 00:34:50,422 in learning about it and watching how it's done, 467 00:34:50,506 --> 00:34:52,547 and watching how it's done to me, 468 00:34:52,631 --> 00:34:54,798 I was able to come up with 469 00:34:54,881 --> 00:34:56,506 a useful tool set 470 00:34:56,589 --> 00:34:58,923 that can really transform media, 471 00:34:59,005 --> 00:35:02,547 and transform how people interact with media, 472 00:35:02,631 --> 00:35:05,005 and with the data within media. 473 00:35:05,089 --> 00:35:07,506 Vicente: So 2014, 474 00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:11,089 "The Knife" was born. 475 00:35:11,172 --> 00:35:13,130 I was one of the founding members of "The Knife." 476 00:35:13,214 --> 00:35:16,547 So in essence, it was a media company, 477 00:35:16,631 --> 00:35:18,756 and the idea was to analyze the news 478 00:35:18,839 --> 00:35:22,255 for objectivity, or lack of objectivity. 479 00:35:22,339 --> 00:35:25,297 So, I trained a group of people, 480 00:35:25,381 --> 00:35:26,631 what we called analysts, 481 00:35:26,714 --> 00:35:29,506 on logic and a series of Raniere's ideas. 482 00:35:29,589 --> 00:35:32,339 There was Rosa Laura Junco, whose father owns 483 00:35:32,422 --> 00:35:34,297 one of the largest papers in Mexico, 484 00:35:34,381 --> 00:35:35,673 Nicki Clyne, 485 00:35:35,756 --> 00:35:38,172 Allison Mack, and Jens Erik Gould, 486 00:35:38,255 --> 00:35:40,047 who used to be with "Bloomberg." 487 00:35:44,172 --> 00:35:46,464 We would talk about the kind of bias in the article. 488 00:35:46,547 --> 00:35:50,172 The slant, the skew, the use of, you know, adjectives. 489 00:35:50,255 --> 00:35:53,464 Basically talk about how objective something was, 490 00:35:53,547 --> 00:35:55,631 versus, you know, very subjective. 491 00:35:55,714 --> 00:35:59,923 The idea was to give every newspaper article a rating. 492 00:36:01,547 --> 00:36:02,881 Joining us now to analyze 493 00:36:02,964 --> 00:36:05,631 is the editor-in-chief of "The Knife" media, 494 00:36:05,714 --> 00:36:06,964 Jens Erik Gould. 495 00:36:07,047 --> 00:36:10,047 Your rating of the coverage in three outlets 496 00:36:10,130 --> 00:36:12,589 of the Trump Presidency in the first six months. 497 00:36:12,673 --> 00:36:14,565 Jens Erik Gould: The language used in their stories 498 00:36:14,589 --> 00:36:16,589 have some sort of vagueness. 499 00:36:16,673 --> 00:36:18,881 Some sort of sensationalism. Let me give you an example. 500 00:36:18,964 --> 00:36:21,089 Words like "constant chaos," 501 00:36:21,172 --> 00:36:23,673 "in-fighting," "abrupt and angry," 502 00:36:23,756 --> 00:36:25,964 "warring factions," "floundering." 503 00:36:26,047 --> 00:36:28,214 These are words that are not measurable. 504 00:36:28,297 --> 00:36:30,172 They're not based on data or facts. 505 00:36:30,255 --> 00:36:32,130 They're emotional, and they get us riled up, 506 00:36:32,214 --> 00:36:33,339 and we get into that. 507 00:36:33,422 --> 00:36:35,172 But they're not helping us be more informed. 508 00:36:35,255 --> 00:36:37,190 News host: So when the President says it's fake news, 509 00:36:37,214 --> 00:36:38,732 what you're here to tell me is, a lot of it, 510 00:36:38,756 --> 00:36:39,964 if it's not fake, 511 00:36:40,047 --> 00:36:41,881 it's heavily spun and very biased. 512 00:36:41,964 --> 00:36:43,065 It's an important distinction, 513 00:36:43,089 --> 00:36:44,464 because something can be a fact, 514 00:36:44,547 --> 00:36:46,881 but it can be distorted in how it's presented to you. 515 00:36:46,964 --> 00:36:49,065 News host: Very interesting. "Knife Media" is what it's called. 516 00:36:49,089 --> 00:36:51,089 Jens Erik Gould, thank you for being here today. 517 00:36:51,172 --> 00:36:53,673 Vicente: At the time, I understood "The Knife" 518 00:36:53,756 --> 00:36:56,214 was a way to analyze the accuracy 519 00:36:56,297 --> 00:36:59,589 of media outlets... 520 00:36:59,673 --> 00:37:03,214 which I now understand was literally to prepare people 521 00:37:03,297 --> 00:37:05,714 for any negative press that would come against ESP, 522 00:37:05,798 --> 00:37:07,839 because they would, in essence, discard it 523 00:37:07,923 --> 00:37:10,547 for its emotionality. 524 00:37:10,631 --> 00:37:13,381 You know, if you reduce everything down to the simplest thing, 525 00:37:13,464 --> 00:37:15,381 you know, you go from, 526 00:37:15,464 --> 00:37:17,047 a man raped a woman to 527 00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:20,381 a man did something. There was a woman involved. 528 00:37:20,464 --> 00:37:22,881 When you, when you basically take all the emotionality out, 529 00:37:22,964 --> 00:37:25,005 you have no idea what actually happened. 530 00:37:28,464 --> 00:37:29,798 Vicente: Hello. 531 00:37:40,673 --> 00:37:41,839 Mm-hmm. 532 00:37:42,381 --> 00:37:43,798 (Meier speaking) 533 00:37:43,881 --> 00:37:46,756 Yeah. Here's the deal. I cannot... 534 00:37:46,839 --> 00:37:49,339 A year ago, I could not imagine 535 00:37:49,422 --> 00:37:51,089 that I would be talking to you, 536 00:37:51,172 --> 00:37:53,798 taking the position I'm taking. I couldn't. 537 00:37:53,881 --> 00:37:56,297 Because I have a lot to lose 538 00:37:56,381 --> 00:37:59,255 if, if it's public that we're having this conversation. 539 00:37:59,339 --> 00:38:02,339 This, this thing is a ligation machine 540 00:38:02,422 --> 00:38:04,964 funded, funded by a lot of wealth. 541 00:38:05,839 --> 00:38:09,297 (Meier speaking) 542 00:38:12,047 --> 00:38:15,172 - Yeah. - (Meier continues) 543 00:38:17,798 --> 00:38:21,005 - Vicente: Yeah. - (Meier speaking) 544 00:38:33,255 --> 00:38:35,255 Vicente: All my paranoia... 545 00:38:35,339 --> 00:38:37,631 Literally my 20s in South Africa 546 00:38:37,714 --> 00:38:39,297 for seven years were watching my back, 547 00:38:39,381 --> 00:38:41,464 looking to see who's following me, you know. 548 00:38:41,547 --> 00:38:44,756 Being, being, you know, really espionage-minded, 549 00:38:44,839 --> 00:38:46,589 'cause my father was a spy. 550 00:38:46,673 --> 00:38:49,089 I now feel like I'm back there again, 551 00:38:49,172 --> 00:38:51,089 doing all the same things. 552 00:38:51,172 --> 00:38:53,964 Walking through a space, memorizing faces. 553 00:38:54,047 --> 00:38:56,089 Watching cars, looking for tails. 554 00:38:56,172 --> 00:38:59,130 It's all like, the same shit I went through. 555 00:38:59,214 --> 00:39:02,047 And it's hard on Bonnie, you know. 556 00:39:04,422 --> 00:39:07,172 So, Mark started this thing, like, two years ago 557 00:39:07,255 --> 00:39:09,381 where he wanted to have cameras in our house. 558 00:39:09,464 --> 00:39:11,673 And at first it felt like, 559 00:39:11,756 --> 00:39:14,839 like that was a good, protective, you know, safe thing. 560 00:39:14,923 --> 00:39:18,172 So he put a camera here. And, uh... 561 00:39:18,255 --> 00:39:20,673 (laughs) At first, that was good. 562 00:39:20,756 --> 00:39:23,255 Now, when I quit, um, 563 00:39:23,339 --> 00:39:27,005 I didn't trust him completely. 564 00:39:27,089 --> 00:39:29,798 I was very paranoid, and I had called a cult counselor. 565 00:39:29,881 --> 00:39:32,089 And I literally tried to avoid the camera 566 00:39:32,172 --> 00:39:33,732 so he wouldn't see me making a phone call. 567 00:39:33,756 --> 00:39:35,798 And I'm, like, talking in the corner of the kitchen 568 00:39:35,881 --> 00:39:37,673 calling the counselor, paranoid, 569 00:39:37,756 --> 00:39:40,255 saying, like, "I'm so afraid to call you." 570 00:39:40,339 --> 00:39:43,673 Um, luckily he didn't rat me out. 571 00:39:43,756 --> 00:39:45,255 So that's fine. 572 00:39:47,756 --> 00:39:50,381 Now, it feels like we're on the same page, 573 00:39:50,464 --> 00:39:52,589 which is, like, the most important thing. 574 00:39:52,673 --> 00:39:54,214 We know what we're standing for. 575 00:39:54,297 --> 00:39:55,673 We know what happened to us. 576 00:39:55,756 --> 00:39:58,964 Now we're talking to "The New York Times," and... 577 00:39:59,047 --> 00:40:02,214 none of us know what's gonna happen. 578 00:40:02,297 --> 00:40:04,589 Vicente: Basically, we've been laying low. 579 00:40:04,673 --> 00:40:06,422 Not a lot of people have known we were here, 580 00:40:06,506 --> 00:40:07,881 and actually the reason 581 00:40:07,964 --> 00:40:09,214 we're okay with shooting here 582 00:40:09,297 --> 00:40:11,005 is 'cause we're about to leave here. 583 00:40:14,506 --> 00:40:16,464 What we'd made a decision about 584 00:40:16,547 --> 00:40:19,631 was applying for the government safe address program. 585 00:40:19,714 --> 00:40:21,130 To basically go off the grid, 586 00:40:21,214 --> 00:40:23,673 so that nobody can find out where we really are. 587 00:40:23,756 --> 00:40:28,047 A nd all, all mail and all everything points to Sacramento. 588 00:40:28,130 --> 00:40:30,172 Piesse: It would be good if we're moved in, 589 00:40:30,255 --> 00:40:31,732 and then "The New York Times" comes out, 590 00:40:31,756 --> 00:40:33,357 and the address protection thing will happen 591 00:40:33,381 --> 00:40:35,798 in the next, like, two weeks. I think. 592 00:40:35,881 --> 00:40:38,756 And then we can be pretty much off the radar. 593 00:40:38,839 --> 00:40:41,547 If they want to serve us papers, they can't find us. 594 00:40:43,214 --> 00:40:45,339 (phone bloops) 595 00:40:52,172 --> 00:40:54,172 Oxenberg: All right, so I got correspondence 596 00:40:54,255 --> 00:40:55,756 from a lawyer, 597 00:40:55,839 --> 00:40:58,964 and a document from what appears to be NXIVM Mexico, 598 00:40:59,047 --> 00:41:02,381 the letter and notice from the State Attorney in Mexico 599 00:41:02,464 --> 00:41:03,589 that's notarized. 600 00:41:03,673 --> 00:41:05,547 "I hereby request the compliance of 601 00:41:05,631 --> 00:41:07,381 the following restraining measures." 602 00:41:16,714 --> 00:41:19,964 "Failure to comply with such measures shall bring along 603 00:41:20,047 --> 00:41:22,798 "the imposition of urgency measures. 604 00:41:22,881 --> 00:41:25,964 "Such measures vary from a warning, 605 00:41:26,047 --> 00:41:28,130 "up to an arrest for 36 hours, 606 00:41:28,214 --> 00:41:32,589 alongside criminal responsibilities that shall arrive." 607 00:41:33,214 --> 00:41:35,005 Are you serious? 608 00:41:41,839 --> 00:41:43,839 Vicente: I heard that Barry went up to Albany 609 00:41:43,923 --> 00:41:45,565 to try to get a statement from NXIVM so I think... 610 00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:48,756 I think that's what tipped them off about the article. 611 00:41:48,839 --> 00:41:50,714 Oxenberg: So I think they're trying to attack 612 00:41:50,798 --> 00:41:53,714 anyone that they think might be speaking to the press. 613 00:41:53,798 --> 00:41:55,130 Yeah. I think so, too. 614 00:41:55,214 --> 00:41:57,089 So I immediately sent the letter 615 00:41:57,172 --> 00:41:59,422 to Barry Meier at "The New York Times," 616 00:41:59,506 --> 00:42:00,839 because I wanted his reaction. 617 00:42:00,923 --> 00:42:04,381 Actually, my thought was if he gets this letter, 618 00:42:04,464 --> 00:42:08,506 maybe he will push for the article to come out sooner. 619 00:42:08,589 --> 00:42:11,673 But he basically sent me back an email this morning saying, 620 00:42:11,756 --> 00:42:13,297 "Welcome to the club." 621 00:42:13,381 --> 00:42:15,005 He said he got the same letter, 622 00:42:15,089 --> 00:42:18,047 so I'm baffled why they are doing this. 623 00:42:20,839 --> 00:42:23,381 (phone jingling) 624 00:43:04,339 --> 00:43:06,798 Hold on one sec. What's going on, Troy? 625 00:43:07,339 --> 00:43:08,589 Hi, buddy. 626 00:43:09,506 --> 00:43:11,214 Are you gonna go to the park? 627 00:43:11,297 --> 00:43:14,381 I couldn't talk about it 'cause I didn't want my collateral to be released. 628 00:43:14,464 --> 00:43:15,981 The biggest fear, I think, is my family, 629 00:43:16,005 --> 00:43:17,605 and, like, the videos of me trash-talking 630 00:43:17,673 --> 00:43:19,130 all my important relationships. 631 00:43:19,214 --> 00:43:21,297 Those are my biggest things. 632 00:43:21,381 --> 00:43:25,130 And also, I just don't want a legal battle. 633 00:43:25,214 --> 00:43:26,857 - You know, I know what ESP does. - Ames: Yeah. 634 00:43:26,881 --> 00:43:29,255 Edmondson: They go after anyone who speaks against them. 635 00:43:29,339 --> 00:43:30,756 Ames: We have a three-year-old son. 636 00:43:30,839 --> 00:43:33,673 I don't want to make this his backdrop to his childhood. 637 00:43:36,047 --> 00:43:39,506 (Keeffe speaking) 638 00:44:33,089 --> 00:44:34,506 Edmondson: Jesus. 639 00:44:38,589 --> 00:44:41,422 (Keefe speaking) 640 00:45:11,339 --> 00:45:13,923 ♪ 641 00:45:20,297 --> 00:45:22,422 Edmondson: Putting myself out there 642 00:45:22,506 --> 00:45:24,964 and being the face of this... 643 00:45:25,047 --> 00:45:26,255 is terrifying. 644 00:45:26,339 --> 00:45:27,839 But, like, when I was in ESP, 645 00:45:27,923 --> 00:45:30,381 there were always allegations, but there was no proof, 646 00:45:30,464 --> 00:45:33,172 or as they say, "class one data." 647 00:45:33,255 --> 00:45:35,631 You know, if anyone's gonna say anything about it, 648 00:45:35,714 --> 00:45:38,172 it has to be someone who's willing to say, 649 00:45:38,255 --> 00:45:39,255 "Hey, here's the proof." 650 00:45:39,339 --> 00:45:41,422 So now I have class one data, 651 00:45:41,506 --> 00:45:42,964 and it's on my body. 652 00:45:43,047 --> 00:45:44,798 And you cannot deny it. 653 00:45:44,881 --> 00:45:48,297 So, I've decided to go on the record, 654 00:45:48,381 --> 00:45:50,631 and expose this. 655 00:45:50,714 --> 00:45:54,214 I was reluctant to talk to "The New York Times." Scared. 656 00:45:54,297 --> 00:45:57,089 And I don't want to be associated with these things, you know? 657 00:45:57,172 --> 00:45:58,714 I'm embarrassed. 658 00:45:58,798 --> 00:46:00,255 You know. And then I was like, 659 00:46:00,339 --> 00:46:02,881 if embarrassment is the only price to do the right thing, 660 00:46:02,964 --> 00:46:04,231 I'm just gonna go on the record, 661 00:46:04,255 --> 00:46:06,756 and do what I can to expose this. Take this out. 662 00:46:06,839 --> 00:46:09,047 You'll be surprised how many times I can say 663 00:46:09,130 --> 00:46:13,756 "Keith Raniere and Allison Mack's initials are on people's vaginas." 664 00:46:13,839 --> 00:46:16,839 I will put that in every single statement I can, 665 00:46:16,923 --> 00:46:19,547 and if you leave reading that article 666 00:46:19,631 --> 00:46:22,464 supporting that, and you're in that camp, 667 00:46:22,547 --> 00:46:24,464 it's gonna be obvious that the problem is you, 668 00:46:24,547 --> 00:46:26,839 and not people who are standing against that stuff. 669 00:46:26,923 --> 00:46:28,422 Spin it however you want. 670 00:46:28,506 --> 00:46:30,964 That's the problem. That's the bad thing. 671 00:46:31,047 --> 00:46:32,964 I tap out at that. 672 00:46:35,130 --> 00:46:37,506 (camera shutter clicking) 673 00:46:37,589 --> 00:46:40,964 Photographer: I'm doing a very slow, low depth of field, 674 00:46:41,047 --> 00:46:44,297 just on your eyes. That looks great, Mark. 675 00:46:44,381 --> 00:46:46,589 Tilt your head a little bit that way. 676 00:46:46,673 --> 00:46:49,506 And now, chin down every so slightly... Right there. That's good. 677 00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:51,130 - Good. - Vicente: I said to Barry, 678 00:46:51,214 --> 00:46:53,547 "I don't know if I can go on the record with this." 679 00:46:53,631 --> 00:46:55,506 I wanted to back away. 680 00:46:55,589 --> 00:46:58,631 And he said to me, "I, I, I just want to tell you, 681 00:46:58,714 --> 00:47:00,673 "the reason this shit keeps going on is because 682 00:47:00,756 --> 00:47:02,964 people don't want to go on the record." 683 00:47:03,047 --> 00:47:06,297 I was like, "Fuck you. That's so true." 684 00:47:06,381 --> 00:47:08,106 Photographer: Oh, that's good. Straight ahead. 685 00:47:08,130 --> 00:47:09,631 Just into the camera, just there. 686 00:47:09,714 --> 00:47:11,440 Vicente: They are gonna look for us more and more, 687 00:47:11,464 --> 00:47:14,547 'cause we're talking about people that have a lot of resources. 688 00:47:16,881 --> 00:47:18,297 No. 689 00:47:18,381 --> 00:47:20,130 Vicente: So Bonnie and I spoke about it, 690 00:47:20,214 --> 00:47:22,357 and said, "Okay." And it was like, it was like a suicide mission. 691 00:47:22,381 --> 00:47:24,964 Just, like, we can't live with ourselves. 692 00:47:31,798 --> 00:47:34,339 (camera shutter clicking) 693 00:47:34,422 --> 00:47:35,881 What do I do with myself? 694 00:47:37,422 --> 00:47:40,464 - Yeah. - (photographer speaking) 695 00:47:40,547 --> 00:47:42,065 - That is true. - Photographer: You can even put it up 696 00:47:42,089 --> 00:47:43,798 a little bit higher, if you want. 697 00:47:43,881 --> 00:47:45,631 All right, you guys. Look over here at me. 698 00:47:45,714 --> 00:47:47,923 - (camera shutter clicking) - Good. 699 00:47:48,756 --> 00:47:50,881 (phone jingling) 700 00:47:52,255 --> 00:47:53,714 Vicente: Hello. 701 00:47:57,589 --> 00:47:59,547 Vicente: So there's, uh, Catherine on the record, 702 00:47:59,631 --> 00:48:03,297 there's Sarah on the record, there's Sarah's husband, 703 00:48:03,381 --> 00:48:05,255 as well, on the record. 704 00:48:05,339 --> 00:48:08,381 And then, myself and Bonnie. 705 00:48:08,464 --> 00:48:10,547 Um, there are 706 00:48:10,631 --> 00:48:12,714 a number of other girls that are coming out. 707 00:48:12,798 --> 00:48:14,673 But I don't know their status, 708 00:48:14,756 --> 00:48:16,556 whether they'd want to talk about this or not. 709 00:48:16,589 --> 00:48:19,589 - (Meier speaking) - Vicente: Mm-hmm. 710 00:48:19,673 --> 00:48:23,130 (Meier continues) 711 00:48:23,756 --> 00:48:24,923 Okay. 712 00:48:26,464 --> 00:48:29,023 - Vicente: I'm gonna talk to a few different people. - Meier: Right. 713 00:48:29,047 --> 00:48:30,881 Vicente: But I think in about 3 or 4 days, 714 00:48:30,964 --> 00:48:33,881 I'll probably have a pretty clear list of who would talk. 715 00:48:33,964 --> 00:48:35,631 (Meier speaking) 716 00:48:40,881 --> 00:48:43,339 (line ringing) 717 00:48:44,714 --> 00:48:47,297 Vicente: I wanted to just go back to the question you had 718 00:48:47,381 --> 00:48:50,255 about that article. 719 00:48:50,339 --> 00:48:52,798 Vicente: Um, what did you hear? 720 00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:06,005 (line ringing) 721 00:50:22,839 --> 00:50:26,381 ♪ 722 00:50:30,005 --> 00:50:31,798 Oxenberg: I wasn't 100% sure, 723 00:50:31,881 --> 00:50:35,297 her level of involvement, but... (sighs) 724 00:50:35,381 --> 00:50:38,673 my daughter India, she's a ringleader. 725 00:50:38,756 --> 00:50:41,756 She's a slave, and she's a master. 726 00:50:44,422 --> 00:50:47,381 I don't think I'm gonna get her out 727 00:50:47,464 --> 00:50:49,923 until the organization is taken down. 728 00:50:52,464 --> 00:50:54,798 (line ringing) 729 00:50:56,422 --> 00:50:59,422 - Do you think it's too late to call? - (line ringing) 730 00:51:00,422 --> 00:51:02,673 Oxenberg: Hey, Barry. 731 00:51:02,756 --> 00:51:05,547 - Obviously, you know why I'm calling. - (Meier speaking) 732 00:51:05,631 --> 00:51:10,547 India's still in the clutches of... 733 00:51:10,631 --> 00:51:13,214 that in... that madman. 734 00:51:13,297 --> 00:51:16,255 And being subjected to more mind control, 735 00:51:16,339 --> 00:51:17,756 so that's really hard on me. 736 00:51:17,839 --> 00:51:19,940 - Yeah. We're, we're... - What... tell... What do you know? 737 00:51:19,964 --> 00:51:24,339 (Meier speaking) 738 00:51:27,339 --> 00:51:28,673 Keep the faith. Keep the faith. 739 00:51:28,756 --> 00:51:30,273 - Okay, and so you can't... - Meier: Keep the faith. 740 00:51:30,297 --> 00:51:33,422 Can you give me, like, a vague ballpark? 741 00:51:33,506 --> 00:51:36,255 - (Meier speaking) - Well, like, how about a... 742 00:51:36,339 --> 00:51:38,297 day. Not the time, but just the day. 743 00:51:38,381 --> 00:51:40,339 (both laughing) 744 00:51:40,839 --> 00:51:42,839 (Meier speaking) 745 00:51:47,839 --> 00:51:49,172 Oxenberg: Mm. 746 00:52:08,172 --> 00:52:09,381 Yeah. 747 00:52:14,047 --> 00:52:15,673 Oxenberg: Mm-hmm. 748 00:52:24,589 --> 00:52:25,839 God. 749 00:52:26,756 --> 00:52:28,464 This is nerve-wracking. 750 00:52:28,547 --> 00:52:31,756 ♪ 751 00:52:36,839 --> 00:52:38,631 Edmondson: He's ruining people's lives. 752 00:52:38,714 --> 00:52:41,381 People's lives that I brought into the company. 753 00:52:41,464 --> 00:52:44,005 That is terrifying to me. 754 00:52:44,089 --> 00:52:46,047 How do I reconcile that? 755 00:52:47,964 --> 00:52:50,214 And my friends in Albany, my close friends, 756 00:52:50,297 --> 00:52:51,657 people who were at our wedding say, 757 00:52:51,714 --> 00:52:53,089 "Oh, you seem really fearful 758 00:52:53,172 --> 00:52:54,357 "and you're making a rash decision. 759 00:52:54,381 --> 00:52:55,901 It seems like you're having a tantrum." 760 00:52:56,005 --> 00:52:57,923 I'm not having a fucking tantrum. 761 00:52:58,005 --> 00:53:01,547 I'm the most principled I've ever been in my fucking life. 762 00:53:01,631 --> 00:53:03,631 That's why I knew that I had to do the article, 763 00:53:03,714 --> 00:53:06,172 because I had to reach them somehow. 764 00:53:06,255 --> 00:53:09,673 And Frank Parlato... The Frank Report isn't the way to do it. 765 00:53:09,756 --> 00:53:11,589 It's too sensationalized. 766 00:53:13,881 --> 00:53:16,005 If we expose this, then, then they have 767 00:53:16,089 --> 00:53:17,565 the opportunity to leave if they want to. 768 00:53:17,589 --> 00:53:19,923 If they want to keep going, go ahead. 769 00:53:22,756 --> 00:53:26,005 (phone ringing) 770 00:53:26,089 --> 00:53:27,589 Oxenberg: Sarah? 771 00:53:27,673 --> 00:53:30,214 - Edmondson (over phone): Yeah. - Hey, sorry to bother you, 772 00:53:30,297 --> 00:53:32,839 but I just found out some bad news. 773 00:53:32,923 --> 00:53:34,381 - Edmondson: Okay. - Oxenberg: So, 774 00:53:34,464 --> 00:53:38,130 "The New York Times" doesn't consider this story urgent, 775 00:53:38,214 --> 00:53:40,339 and there's a chance that 776 00:53:40,422 --> 00:53:42,839 they may postpone it indefinitely. 777 00:53:44,589 --> 00:53:47,089 Basically, the story is considered evergreen. 778 00:53:47,172 --> 00:53:50,381 There is no... They don't think there's any urgency to this story. 779 00:53:50,464 --> 00:53:54,047 But they don't have a kid in there that's wasting away. 780 00:53:54,130 --> 00:53:56,422 Edmondson: You just to talk to him. You need to move this. 781 00:53:56,506 --> 00:53:57,881 This isn't the gossip column. 782 00:53:57,964 --> 00:54:00,422 People's lives are being ruined. 783 00:54:02,798 --> 00:54:04,297 Oxenberg: I'm desperate. 784 00:54:04,381 --> 00:54:06,714 I don't know if you know what's going on inside my body, 785 00:54:06,798 --> 00:54:08,547 but I am desperate. 786 00:54:08,631 --> 00:54:12,714 Because I don't know what else we can do at this point. 787 00:54:12,798 --> 00:54:16,339 I really don't. Like, somebody tell us... give us an option. 788 00:54:19,714 --> 00:54:23,464 ♪ 789 00:54:29,172 --> 00:54:33,130 Meier: I don't think that someone signing up for 790 00:54:33,214 --> 00:54:36,255 self-improvement or self-help is a horrible thing 791 00:54:36,339 --> 00:54:38,130 or a bad thing. 792 00:54:38,214 --> 00:54:42,089 I'm so incapable of self-improvement, okay, 793 00:54:42,172 --> 00:54:45,923 that it just doesn't appeal to me, straight up. 794 00:54:46,005 --> 00:54:48,089 Right? It's like there's no hope for me. 795 00:54:48,172 --> 00:54:50,673 There's just no... Nothing that could be done. 796 00:54:50,756 --> 00:54:53,547 Even if there was some self-improvement program 797 00:54:53,631 --> 00:54:55,589 that actually worked, 798 00:54:55,673 --> 00:54:58,130 it wouldn't work on me. 799 00:54:59,798 --> 00:55:01,297 It's that simple. 800 00:55:01,381 --> 00:55:03,589 So, I'm, like, protected from this shit. 801 00:55:03,673 --> 00:55:06,673 Because I'm fucking helpless. 802 00:55:13,255 --> 00:55:16,964 I would guess the central thing that I took away from it 803 00:55:17,047 --> 00:55:20,297 was how extraordinarily vulnerable we are, 804 00:55:20,381 --> 00:55:22,130 as people. 805 00:55:22,214 --> 00:55:26,964 And how even people who, on the surface, 806 00:55:27,047 --> 00:55:30,214 are bright, are capable, 807 00:55:30,297 --> 00:55:34,964 talented, successful, in many ways, 808 00:55:35,047 --> 00:55:39,130 have this intense vulnerability. 809 00:55:39,214 --> 00:55:42,214 And that vulnerability 810 00:55:42,297 --> 00:55:45,756 is available for someone to exploit. 811 00:55:47,339 --> 00:55:51,255 The idea that in 2017, 812 00:55:51,339 --> 00:55:54,673 when we think of ourselves as living in 813 00:55:54,756 --> 00:55:58,923 an advanced, culturally enlightened society, 814 00:55:59,005 --> 00:56:04,673 where there's hope for equality between men and women, 815 00:56:04,756 --> 00:56:08,923 that this type of unspeakable cruelty 816 00:56:09,005 --> 00:56:10,839 can persist. 817 00:56:10,923 --> 00:56:13,506 And that people can partake 818 00:56:13,589 --> 00:56:16,422 and be subjected to practices 819 00:56:16,506 --> 00:56:19,923 that could only be described as barbaric. 820 00:56:20,005 --> 00:56:24,255 But, from the standpoint of publication, 821 00:56:24,339 --> 00:56:28,464 it's important to have as many people as possible 822 00:56:28,547 --> 00:56:30,756 speaking on the record. 823 00:56:30,839 --> 00:56:34,214 And throughout the reporting of the story, 824 00:56:34,297 --> 00:56:38,130 the greatest fear that everyone was expressing to me 825 00:56:38,214 --> 00:56:41,464 was the fear of legal retaliation. 826 00:56:42,798 --> 00:56:45,172 And they had a basis to believe that, 827 00:56:45,255 --> 00:56:49,297 because there was this other group of women who had left the group, 828 00:56:49,381 --> 00:56:54,464 and in fact had been the subject of numerous lawsuits. 829 00:56:54,547 --> 00:56:56,589 Barbara Bouchey: I was the first significant person 830 00:56:56,673 --> 00:56:59,589 in the entire organization to ever leave. 831 00:56:59,673 --> 00:57:02,881 Over the years, I heard from members 832 00:57:02,964 --> 00:57:04,881 and ex-members and the media 833 00:57:04,964 --> 00:57:07,297 that people were terrified 834 00:57:07,381 --> 00:57:10,089 to be the next Barbara Bouchey. 835 00:57:10,172 --> 00:57:12,714 They needed to make an example out of me, 836 00:57:12,798 --> 00:57:15,923 in order to instill in the community: 837 00:57:16,005 --> 00:57:18,673 This can happen to you, too. 838 00:57:18,756 --> 00:57:22,255 Buckle your seat belt, and get ready. 839 00:57:22,339 --> 00:57:25,297 'Cause they're comin' for you. 840 00:57:25,381 --> 00:57:28,339 ("You Better Be Careful" by The Golliwogs playing) 841 00:57:32,047 --> 00:57:34,964 ♪ You better be careful, girl ♪ 842 00:57:36,047 --> 00:57:38,172 ♪ You're all alone ♪ 843 00:57:39,631 --> 00:57:42,714 ♪ You better be careful, girl ♪ 844 00:57:43,839 --> 00:57:46,005 ♪ You're on your own ♪ 845 00:57:49,381 --> 00:57:52,381 ♪ I see the tears begin ♪ 846 00:57:53,130 --> 00:57:58,798 ♪ There in your eyes ♪ 847 00:57:58,881 --> 00:58:03,005 ♪ 848 00:58:43,172 --> 00:58:45,005 WOMAN: I'm front page of The New York Times. 849 00:58:45,547 --> 00:58:47,798 Holy shit, the whole world knows. 850 00:58:48,714 --> 00:58:50,255 MAN: (OVER PHONE) 851 00:58:50,589 --> 00:58:53,732 WOMAN: Every now and then I'm getting, "What the fuck? How could you let that happen?" 852 00:58:53,756 --> 00:58:55,589 ♪ (TENSE MUSIC PLAYS) ♪ 853 00:58:57,506 --> 00:59:00,297 WOMAN 2: (OVER PHONE) 854 00:59:01,756 --> 00:59:03,631 WOMAN: Now that I'm out and I'm looking back, 855 00:59:03,714 --> 00:59:05,255 it was all for a man's pleasure. 856 00:59:05,339 --> 00:59:08,214 And these women feel it's a beautiful, noble attempt 857 00:59:08,422 --> 00:59:10,839 to teach women strength and empowerment 858 00:59:10,964 --> 00:59:12,798 and I am fucking that up for them. 859 00:59:12,881 --> 00:59:16,047 WOMAN 3: I found out the board was all the women 860 00:59:16,130 --> 00:59:17,839 Keith had been sleeping with. 861 00:59:20,172 --> 00:59:22,506 I held a forum to confront Keith. 862 00:59:22,964 --> 00:59:24,339 KEITH RANIERE: This is extortion. 863 00:59:24,422 --> 00:59:26,506 So, we are filing criminal charges. 864 00:59:26,923 --> 00:59:29,047 WOMAN 3: They were bombarding the court. 865 00:59:29,130 --> 00:59:30,464 WOMAN: It was like a horror show. 866 00:59:31,089 --> 00:59:32,464 ♪ (MUSIC CONCLUDES) ♪ 867 00:59:32,488 --> 00:59:35,488 Subtitles Diego Moraes(oakislandtk) www.opensubtitles.org