1 00:00:24,821 --> 00:00:27,741 Keith Raniere has done something that has never been 2 00:00:27,741 --> 00:00:30,577 documented before in the history of psychology 3 00:00:30,577 --> 00:00:33,705 or any of the information on human potential. 4 00:00:33,705 --> 00:00:36,916 He has quantified the structure of emotions, 5 00:00:36,916 --> 00:00:38,376 the nature of emotions, 6 00:00:38,376 --> 00:00:40,795 and how human beings either limit 7 00:00:40,795 --> 00:00:43,506 or empower themselves, with their emotions. 8 00:00:46,634 --> 00:00:47,802 In ESP, 9 00:00:47,802 --> 00:00:51,222 we taught something called "state control." 10 00:00:51,222 --> 00:00:54,267 A series of events happen, we make a meaning, 11 00:00:54,267 --> 00:00:59,981 and based on that meaning, we have an emotional reaction, 12 00:00:59,981 --> 00:01:03,276 which means we're choosing the emotional reaction 13 00:01:03,276 --> 00:01:05,403 based on the meaning. 14 00:01:05,403 --> 00:01:08,406 Right? We may not be aware we're choosing it, 15 00:01:08,406 --> 00:01:10,366 but we are actually choosing it. 16 00:01:11,826 --> 00:01:17,248 And we do exercises with people so that they begin to gain 17 00:01:17,248 --> 00:01:21,169 a feeling of control over those choices. 18 00:01:21,169 --> 00:01:23,046 So, if something happens, 19 00:01:23,046 --> 00:01:25,799 and I have an impulse to be angry, 20 00:01:25,799 --> 00:01:28,885 I can act on that impulse and yell at you 21 00:01:28,885 --> 00:01:30,178 and scream at you, 22 00:01:30,178 --> 00:01:34,682 or I can have the impulse and choose not to indulge it. 23 00:01:34,682 --> 00:01:37,268 So I can choose to bring up a state. 24 00:01:37,268 --> 00:01:41,314 I can be sitting here like this right now and I can say, 25 00:01:41,314 --> 00:01:47,737 "I am so mad, I can't stand it! This is not acceptable to me!" 26 00:01:48,238 --> 00:01:49,239 Or not. 27 00:01:51,407 --> 00:01:52,826 ♪ (EERIE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 28 00:01:55,370 --> 00:02:00,375 ♪ ("DREAM STATE" FT. BONNIE PIESSE BY SON LUX PLAYING) ♪ 29 00:02:01,584 --> 00:02:03,670 ♪ Days we were young ♪ 30 00:02:03,670 --> 00:02:09,300 ♪ We took photographs Of everything we could see ♪ 31 00:02:09,300 --> 00:02:12,804 ♪ We had to run from it ♪ 32 00:02:12,804 --> 00:02:19,727 ♪ Priest and prophetess We were nothing we would defy ♪ 33 00:02:20,812 --> 00:02:22,438 ♪ Oh ♪ 34 00:02:22,438 --> 00:02:28,695 ♪ Invisible skin Where is the world within? ♪ 35 00:02:28,695 --> 00:02:33,616 ♪ Invincible skin It's how we all begin ♪ 36 00:02:35,660 --> 00:02:40,999 ♪ ("DREAM STATE" CONCLUDES) ♪ 37 00:02:43,459 --> 00:02:47,672 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 38 00:02:51,342 --> 00:02:53,052 The trial against alleged cult leader, 39 00:02:53,052 --> 00:02:55,471 Keith Raniere, entering its second week today. 40 00:02:55,471 --> 00:02:57,891 Raniere is facing a number of charges, 41 00:02:57,891 --> 00:03:00,643 including sex trafficking and racketeering. 42 00:03:05,398 --> 00:03:07,692 Uh, you know, it's hard to process this. 43 00:03:07,692 --> 00:03:12,071 I think it takes a long time, and I haven't had therapy. 44 00:03:13,907 --> 00:03:17,035 I have thought that it would give me a way 45 00:03:17,035 --> 00:03:19,120 of just talking it all through. 46 00:03:30,506 --> 00:03:32,216 These are all Keith. 47 00:03:35,178 --> 00:03:39,933 He didn't want us to throw away anything he ever wrote. 48 00:03:42,477 --> 00:03:44,646 When we were creating the intensive... 49 00:03:46,230 --> 00:03:49,359 he would draw these on the floor of my house. 50 00:03:50,735 --> 00:03:56,616 "A causes B in the past, event B, event A. 51 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,243 Uh, the future. 52 00:03:59,243 --> 00:04:02,622 So we have nothing to do with past events." 53 00:04:04,624 --> 00:04:06,125 I don't know what he was trying to say, 54 00:04:06,125 --> 00:04:08,461 but we laminated it. 55 00:04:08,461 --> 00:04:12,382 Twenty years is right here. Twenty years of curriculum. 56 00:04:15,093 --> 00:04:16,886 If you represent this as you... 57 00:04:19,138 --> 00:04:20,306 would you say 58 00:04:20,306 --> 00:04:23,267 that there is what we'll call "optimal you"? 59 00:04:23,267 --> 00:04:24,519 Or optimal... 60 00:04:24,519 --> 00:04:29,399 The idea was that he had this very special skill 61 00:04:29,399 --> 00:04:31,526 to create behavior change. 62 00:04:31,526 --> 00:04:32,652 It wasn't a science, 63 00:04:32,652 --> 00:04:34,320 but he wanted to make it a science. 64 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,572 So it had to be reproducible, 65 00:04:36,572 --> 00:04:39,575 verifiable, consistent, and measurable. 66 00:04:39,575 --> 00:04:43,287 By the way, I am doing this completely extemporaneously. 67 00:04:43,287 --> 00:04:44,914 I'm imagining... 68 00:04:44,914 --> 00:04:50,128 But it wasn't like he had the technology done. 69 00:04:50,753 --> 00:04:52,505 He had an idea. 70 00:04:52,505 --> 00:04:54,757 And then he had a bunch of concepts. 71 00:04:54,757 --> 00:04:57,301 And he started teaching me parts of it. 72 00:04:58,469 --> 00:05:01,848 This is Keith and Nancy, and it's 6:02 am. 73 00:05:01,848 --> 00:05:04,684 So, tell me, what is responsibility? 74 00:05:04,684 --> 00:05:07,937 Okay, uh, responsibility is-- 75 00:05:07,937 --> 00:05:09,439 This is pretty simple and easy. 76 00:05:09,439 --> 00:05:12,900 Yeah, it's-- it's the causes and the effects. 77 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:16,863 Uh, your-- your participation in the causes and the effects. 78 00:05:16,863 --> 00:05:18,823 Yeah. So that's some-- something you can affect. 79 00:05:18,823 --> 00:05:20,950 Mm-hmm. 80 00:05:20,950 --> 00:05:24,203 He thought we were only going to need 20 modules. 81 00:05:24,203 --> 00:05:28,458 I wrote 2000 modules by the time ESP was done. 82 00:05:29,625 --> 00:05:32,879 They were Keith's concepts, and I codified them. 83 00:05:35,965 --> 00:05:38,843 When I was first starting out in my professional career, 84 00:05:38,843 --> 00:05:41,262 I began to really think about this thing, 85 00:05:41,262 --> 00:05:42,972 the mind-body connection. 86 00:05:42,972 --> 00:05:46,392 The more I learned, the more I realized that I didn't know. 87 00:05:48,853 --> 00:05:53,066 I was always fascinated by how much we could do 88 00:05:53,066 --> 00:05:55,777 using our mind over our body. 89 00:05:55,777 --> 00:05:59,530 Did you ever hear a story about a 110-pound woman 90 00:05:59,530 --> 00:06:02,366 who picked up a 4000-pound car 91 00:06:02,366 --> 00:06:05,078 because she thought her baby was underneath it? 92 00:06:05,078 --> 00:06:08,790 Human beings have incredible resources 93 00:06:08,790 --> 00:06:11,918 and we can produce unprecedented results 94 00:06:11,918 --> 00:06:14,420 under the right set of circumstances. 95 00:06:15,838 --> 00:06:20,134 I always wanted to know what the limits 96 00:06:20,134 --> 00:06:22,136 of our model was. 97 00:06:22,136 --> 00:06:23,763 I wanted to work with chronic pain. 98 00:06:23,763 --> 00:06:25,264 I wanted to work with eating dis-- 99 00:06:25,264 --> 00:06:28,017 I wanted to work with a number of things. 100 00:06:28,017 --> 00:06:31,395 Keith, he said before we work with people with disorders, 101 00:06:31,395 --> 00:06:33,481 I want us to work with healthy people 102 00:06:33,481 --> 00:06:36,317 who just want to change patterns of behavior 103 00:06:36,317 --> 00:06:37,401 that limit them. 104 00:06:38,653 --> 00:06:42,156 But people would come who would have certain disorders 105 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:44,325 and they would say, "Will this help this?" 106 00:06:47,662 --> 00:06:50,581 And then Marc Elliot showed up. 107 00:06:59,799 --> 00:07:01,926 I started ticcing when I was five years old. 108 00:07:03,761 --> 00:07:05,972 {\an8}Started with eye blinking. 109 00:07:05,972 --> 00:07:10,143 {\an8}In high school, my Tourette's got way worse. 110 00:07:10,143 --> 00:07:12,895 The way that I would describe it is that there's an itch 111 00:07:12,895 --> 00:07:14,438 and there's a scratch. 112 00:07:14,438 --> 00:07:16,524 So Tourette syndrome, in my opinion, 113 00:07:16,524 --> 00:07:18,693 is that very uncomfortable itch. 114 00:07:18,693 --> 00:07:20,236 I won't tic. 115 00:07:20,236 --> 00:07:21,654 And then the tic 116 00:07:21,654 --> 00:07:24,407 is actually someone scratching that itch. 117 00:07:24,407 --> 00:07:26,659 It's not like I'm possessed by the devil, 118 00:07:26,659 --> 00:07:27,910 and-- and... 119 00:07:27,910 --> 00:07:30,496 ...something's moving my mouth. I was moving it. 120 00:07:30,496 --> 00:07:32,832 It's just very hard not to scratch it. 121 00:07:33,499 --> 00:07:37,879 {\an8}I tried all sorts of different treatments. 122 00:07:37,879 --> 00:07:39,297 I tried neuroleptic drugs, 123 00:07:39,297 --> 00:07:41,924 like very serious anti-psychotic drugs 124 00:07:41,924 --> 00:07:45,261 which the side effects of, I mean, you're so lethargic, 125 00:07:45,261 --> 00:07:46,387 you're so sleepy, 126 00:07:46,387 --> 00:07:47,930 it's almost like you're a zombie. 127 00:07:49,849 --> 00:07:52,059 And it finally got to the point that I decided, 128 00:07:52,059 --> 00:07:54,812 forget medication, I'm just gonna live my life. 129 00:07:56,564 --> 00:07:57,773 I wasn't waiting for the cure. 130 00:07:57,773 --> 00:07:59,942 In fact, it was the direct opposite. 131 00:08:01,027 --> 00:08:03,571 Because I can't stop this. 132 00:08:03,571 --> 00:08:05,781 The best path for me to have a better life, 133 00:08:05,781 --> 00:08:08,451 is to then get the whole world to accept me. 134 00:08:10,953 --> 00:08:12,038 I have Tourette's by the way, 135 00:08:12,038 --> 00:08:13,372 just gonna throw that out there, okay? 136 00:08:13,372 --> 00:08:16,000 People look at me and make a lot of assumptions 137 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,543 about who I am as a person. 138 00:08:17,543 --> 00:08:18,794 I was 24 years old, 139 00:08:18,794 --> 00:08:22,381 speaking about compassion and tolerance. 140 00:08:22,381 --> 00:08:26,302 It was a dream come true externally. 141 00:08:26,302 --> 00:08:29,347 But internally, the thing that I didn't have was peace. 142 00:08:30,681 --> 00:08:32,725 And then I learned about ESP. 143 00:08:33,851 --> 00:08:36,020 And this is what's most important. 144 00:08:36,020 --> 00:08:38,272 I did not go for Tourette's. 145 00:08:38,272 --> 00:08:41,901 It wasn't even an iota of a thought in my mind 146 00:08:41,901 --> 00:08:47,240 about somehow this training could affect my Tourette's. 147 00:08:50,701 --> 00:08:52,578 - Hey, everybody. - Stay standing. 148 00:08:52,578 --> 00:08:54,205 - Hello. - How are you all? 149 00:08:54,205 --> 00:08:57,500 Nancy comes in and she picks me to be the demo 150 00:08:57,500 --> 00:08:58,834 of the fear sourcing. 151 00:08:58,834 --> 00:09:03,005 A fear sourcing is going back to the root of your fear. 152 00:09:03,005 --> 00:09:05,508 You had an experience at some time, 153 00:09:05,508 --> 00:09:07,760 and you didn't know how to make sense of it, 154 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,470 and you became fearful. 155 00:09:09,470 --> 00:09:10,638 You have to think about 156 00:09:10,638 --> 00:09:12,348 what fear do you want to work on. 157 00:09:12,348 --> 00:09:15,768 And I don't know why, but I decided 158 00:09:15,768 --> 00:09:20,648 that maybe I'm afraid of losing Tourette's. 159 00:09:20,648 --> 00:09:22,817 Six days earlier, if you would have come up to me 160 00:09:22,817 --> 00:09:23,943 and said like, "Hey, you know, 161 00:09:23,943 --> 00:09:25,194 you might be afraid of losing Tourette's," 162 00:09:25,194 --> 00:09:27,488 I literally would've punched you or said, "Fuck you." 163 00:09:28,739 --> 00:09:30,241 But we explored the fear, 164 00:09:30,241 --> 00:09:33,828 and it wasn't that I was afraid of losing Tourette's, 165 00:09:33,828 --> 00:09:36,664 I was just afraid of not being special anymore. 166 00:09:38,291 --> 00:09:40,126 I just had such a fundamental shift of-- 167 00:09:40,126 --> 00:09:43,671 I'm not seeing myself as a victim to this thing. 168 00:09:45,089 --> 00:09:49,552 What if you could figure out what's causing the itch? 169 00:09:51,220 --> 00:09:53,347 Which is a completely different paradigm. 170 00:09:53,347 --> 00:09:56,475 The more that you can really get to the root of that, 171 00:09:56,475 --> 00:10:00,146 what I found was, my itch started to go down. 172 00:10:02,648 --> 00:10:05,735 I remember being in a train station... 173 00:10:05,735 --> 00:10:09,488 and I walk into the middle and I just stood there. 174 00:10:11,907 --> 00:10:15,119 I literally was like everyone else. 175 00:10:15,119 --> 00:10:17,330 And I had never had that in my entire life. 176 00:10:20,207 --> 00:10:23,419 Now is the moment where we introduce 177 00:10:23,419 --> 00:10:24,545 an amazing man. 178 00:10:24,545 --> 00:10:30,259 He has inspired thousands of people. Marc Elliot! 179 00:10:30,259 --> 00:10:33,429 Whoo! 180 00:10:34,764 --> 00:10:35,890 Thank you! 181 00:10:35,890 --> 00:10:37,725 Living with Tourette syndrome, 182 00:10:37,725 --> 00:10:40,770 I really had the chance to see what is it like 183 00:10:40,770 --> 00:10:44,607 to be so different than everyone else. 184 00:10:44,607 --> 00:10:48,069 But in 2010, I met an American scientist 185 00:10:48,069 --> 00:10:50,780 and philosopher, his name is Keith Raniere, 186 00:10:50,780 --> 00:10:52,656 and he actually created the courses 187 00:10:52,656 --> 00:10:54,075 that provided the tools 188 00:10:54,075 --> 00:10:56,160 that helped me beat my Tourette's. 189 00:10:58,954 --> 00:11:00,706 Nothing like this has ever been done 190 00:11:00,706 --> 00:11:02,458 in history that I know of. 191 00:11:03,709 --> 00:11:05,836 And now I've been like this, 192 00:11:05,836 --> 00:11:09,215 um, for about the last four years. 193 00:11:10,299 --> 00:11:13,052 You know, that's why I'm-- I'm so grateful 194 00:11:14,136 --> 00:11:16,097 to Keith and to Nancy and to NXIVM. 195 00:11:16,097 --> 00:11:18,349 It's not because I'm-- I'm some-- 196 00:11:18,349 --> 00:11:23,521 I had this indoctrination. I've had a horrible 20 years. 197 00:11:24,146 --> 00:11:25,231 You know, what do you-- 198 00:11:25,231 --> 00:11:26,982 How do you feel towards the person 199 00:11:26,982 --> 00:11:30,361 that literally gave you an opportunity and the tools 200 00:11:30,361 --> 00:11:34,323 to craft an existence that you couldn't even dream of? 201 00:11:35,324 --> 00:11:38,452 ♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 202 00:11:51,507 --> 00:11:53,676 When I did the Tourette's work, 203 00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:57,221 I think I may have learned more than anything else I did. 204 00:11:59,056 --> 00:12:00,975 So, this is Marc, and Marc's volunteered 205 00:12:00,975 --> 00:12:03,519 to demonstrate anger for us today. 206 00:12:03,519 --> 00:12:05,896 So this is what I'm going to ask you to do. 207 00:12:05,896 --> 00:12:09,150 When Marc first came to ESP, 208 00:12:09,150 --> 00:12:10,985 I studied him the whole week. 209 00:12:14,613 --> 00:12:16,907 He would think in his mind, 210 00:12:16,907 --> 00:12:18,784 "What is the worst possible thing 211 00:12:18,784 --> 00:12:20,286 that I could say?" 212 00:12:20,286 --> 00:12:22,037 So, like, when he first met me, 213 00:12:22,037 --> 00:12:27,042 he said, "Bitch! Bitch! Bitch! Bitch! Bitch!" 214 00:12:27,042 --> 00:12:31,172 And when we first met Clare Bronfman, he said, 215 00:12:31,172 --> 00:12:36,010 "Rich! Rich! Rich! Rich! Rich!" 216 00:12:36,010 --> 00:12:42,224 Clare paid for the research, but it was Marc's idea 217 00:12:42,224 --> 00:12:44,518 to work with other Tourette's people. 218 00:12:44,518 --> 00:12:46,812 - Hello. - Hi. 219 00:12:46,812 --> 00:12:48,689 Hi, I'm Nancy. I'm Nancy. 220 00:12:48,689 --> 00:12:50,274 - Hey. - It's nice to meet you. 221 00:12:50,274 --> 00:12:52,651 When I started working with people who had Tourette's, 222 00:12:52,651 --> 00:12:55,821 I never researched much about Tourette's. 223 00:12:55,821 --> 00:12:58,908 And the reason was I didn't want to prejudice myself. 224 00:13:00,201 --> 00:13:02,453 I had one 20-minute conversation with Keith 225 00:13:02,453 --> 00:13:04,872 about how I was gonna work with people. 226 00:13:04,872 --> 00:13:07,416 And he said to me, "You use every tool 227 00:13:07,416 --> 00:13:09,126 you have ever learned. 228 00:13:09,126 --> 00:13:10,503 Don't hold back." 229 00:13:12,213 --> 00:13:15,299 Do you have any concerns about today? 230 00:13:16,091 --> 00:13:17,092 {\an8}Concerns? 231 00:13:17,092 --> 00:13:19,512 {\an8}Um... Well, I mean, the other day I was thinking 232 00:13:19,512 --> 00:13:22,097 {\an8}that it, you know, might not work. 233 00:13:22,097 --> 00:13:24,016 {\an8}- Is that your concern? - Yeah. 234 00:13:24,016 --> 00:13:25,518 {\an8}- So-- - So you have... 235 00:13:27,478 --> 00:13:29,146 {\an8} So... 236 00:13:30,439 --> 00:13:31,982 {\an8}I wanna see what the outcome is. 237 00:13:31,982 --> 00:13:35,361 {\an8}- Uh, I can try my hardest. - The whole part of outcomes is 238 00:13:35,361 --> 00:13:36,946 {\an8}you can't figure out what they are 239 00:13:36,946 --> 00:13:38,864 {\an8}until you go through the process, right? 240 00:13:38,864 --> 00:13:40,032 {\an8}Right, yeah. 241 00:13:40,032 --> 00:13:41,408 {\an8}Okay, so you were thinking it might not work... 242 00:13:41,408 --> 00:13:43,827 {\an8}I work with a number of different things, 243 00:13:43,827 --> 00:13:45,287 {\an8}but mainly beliefs. 244 00:13:46,455 --> 00:13:50,000 So I give them a belief in the mind-body connection 245 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,794 and what is actually possible. 246 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,673 {\an8}I'm gonna do something, uh... 247 00:13:55,673 --> 00:13:58,133 ...like an exploration with you. 248 00:13:58,133 --> 00:14:00,177 {\an8}It's called an exploration of meaning. 249 00:14:00,177 --> 00:14:03,556 {\an8}So I'm going to ask you what you mean by certain things 250 00:14:03,556 --> 00:14:04,765 {\an8}because a lot of times, 251 00:14:04,765 --> 00:14:07,393 {\an8}if there's an inconsistency in meaning, 252 00:14:07,393 --> 00:14:09,436 {\an8}it causes... 253 00:14:09,436 --> 00:14:12,606 {\an8}...the issues that limit us. 254 00:14:12,606 --> 00:14:14,108 {\an8}So what I'm gonna do is try to help... 255 00:14:14,108 --> 00:14:18,028 {\an8}In ESP, the thing that we did very well, 256 00:14:18,028 --> 00:14:21,949 was we could take a stimulus and a response 257 00:14:21,949 --> 00:14:23,867 and disconnect them. 258 00:14:23,867 --> 00:14:28,289 Like, for instance, have you ever had an experience 259 00:14:28,289 --> 00:14:33,002 of hearing a tone in your mother's voice 260 00:14:33,002 --> 00:14:36,171 and knowing that you were in trouble? 261 00:14:36,171 --> 00:14:40,050 And then whenever you hear that tone in someone's voice, 262 00:14:40,926 --> 00:14:42,177 you go into a panic. 263 00:14:43,137 --> 00:14:46,140 If you can disconnect the trigger, 264 00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:47,891 you know, to your issue, 265 00:14:47,891 --> 00:14:49,393 then you would not do it anymore, 266 00:14:49,393 --> 00:14:51,520 and then you would forget you ever did it. 267 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,480 So the way that I handled Tourette's was, 268 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,151 I found out what-- what the impulse was 269 00:14:57,151 --> 00:15:00,029 and then I would disconnect the stimulus and responses 270 00:15:00,029 --> 00:15:03,699 until, you know, there was control. 271 00:15:03,699 --> 00:15:05,618 When you say, "It feels like I need to blink," 272 00:15:05,618 --> 00:15:07,202 - what do you mean? - When... 273 00:15:09,788 --> 00:15:11,290 when my eyes get dry, and I blink, 274 00:15:11,290 --> 00:15:13,083 it's not like a different feeling than that. 275 00:15:13,083 --> 00:15:16,128 It's not? But then sometimes you really... 276 00:15:16,128 --> 00:15:19,798 Yeah. How do you know when to do that? 277 00:15:24,762 --> 00:15:27,097 Now, you said you had this feeling here. 278 00:15:27,097 --> 00:15:28,557 How does it feel now? 279 00:15:29,683 --> 00:15:34,021 It's... I can feel it, but it's not as strong. 280 00:15:35,773 --> 00:15:39,818 There isn't the urge to tic-- There is, but... 281 00:15:41,612 --> 00:15:42,988 I can control it. 282 00:15:44,740 --> 00:15:46,492 Huh! I didn't even notice that. 283 00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:50,329 I still feel the urges but... 284 00:15:50,329 --> 00:15:53,540 - Less so? - Very much less. 285 00:15:53,540 --> 00:15:54,833 We can do more work. 286 00:15:54,833 --> 00:15:57,461 But that was very good for today. 287 00:15:57,461 --> 00:15:58,796 That's incredible. 288 00:15:58,796 --> 00:16:03,092 I really did not think that was going to work at all. 289 00:16:04,385 --> 00:16:06,178 We have these amazing results. 290 00:16:07,179 --> 00:16:08,847 But there's still this feeling of, 291 00:16:08,847 --> 00:16:10,974 well, you guys don't have any credentials. 292 00:16:10,974 --> 00:16:13,894 When conventional solutions don't work, 293 00:16:13,894 --> 00:16:16,814 maybe the unconventional way of thinking does. 294 00:16:16,814 --> 00:16:19,066 It is certainly not double-blind tested. 295 00:16:19,066 --> 00:16:21,068 But the truth of the matter is, 296 00:16:21,068 --> 00:16:23,654 sometimes you want to go to something that's unique. 297 00:16:25,823 --> 00:16:28,617 It was so tangible, it was so palpable, 298 00:16:28,617 --> 00:16:29,702 these results. 299 00:16:29,702 --> 00:16:32,121 It's not a question of, "Can we help people?" 300 00:16:32,121 --> 00:16:35,249 It's literally, we know that when we give the green light 301 00:16:35,249 --> 00:16:38,335 to someone, you no longer will be dealing with Tourette's. 302 00:16:44,425 --> 00:16:46,593 I'm just trying to think if we can just cut for this, 303 00:16:46,593 --> 00:16:47,803 I don't know if it's best if-- 304 00:16:47,803 --> 00:16:51,390 I mean, I can talk-- I mean, Isabella is... um... 305 00:16:51,390 --> 00:16:53,267 I just think that, you know, 306 00:16:53,267 --> 00:16:55,060 the people that... 307 00:16:55,060 --> 00:16:58,230 uh, that we helped with Tourette syndrome, 308 00:16:59,273 --> 00:17:00,524 you know, if they... 309 00:17:03,318 --> 00:17:05,821 you know, if they want to speak publicly about, you know, 310 00:17:05,821 --> 00:17:09,116 their experience with us, you know, that's up to them. 311 00:17:10,993 --> 00:17:16,248 ♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 312 00:17:16,248 --> 00:17:17,791 Some people thought 313 00:17:17,791 --> 00:17:20,627 the study would be the saving grace of the company 314 00:17:20,627 --> 00:17:25,299 because it showed this amazing transformation. 315 00:17:25,299 --> 00:17:30,137 Everyone in NXIVM is having this much of an extreme change, 316 00:17:30,137 --> 00:17:32,222 but you can't see it physically. 317 00:17:33,390 --> 00:17:35,642 And I think this made it much more obvious 318 00:17:35,642 --> 00:17:38,145 that they had profound tools. 319 00:17:42,065 --> 00:17:43,358 Oh! 320 00:17:43,358 --> 00:17:46,278 {\an8}My arms are just like this every time. 321 00:17:46,278 --> 00:17:49,740 {\an8}Like I hit myself and I have to punch myself. 322 00:17:50,783 --> 00:17:52,534 Since I was six or seven. 323 00:17:52,534 --> 00:17:54,495 It was just very hard with Tourette's. 324 00:17:56,413 --> 00:17:59,833 Partly because there was a lot of OCD involved too. 325 00:17:59,833 --> 00:18:01,710 Well, my OCD makes me 326 00:18:01,710 --> 00:18:04,421 toss a plate up and down, even with food on it. 327 00:18:04,421 --> 00:18:06,715 Any urge you could imagine. 328 00:18:06,715 --> 00:18:08,133 Yelling, screaming, 329 00:18:08,133 --> 00:18:10,177 hitting myself, hitting other things. 330 00:18:12,095 --> 00:18:15,516 {\an8}She has some of the worst tics I've ever seen. 331 00:18:17,601 --> 00:18:19,978 If there's one thing that I could give kids 332 00:18:19,978 --> 00:18:22,105 who have tics, it would be resilience. 333 00:18:22,105 --> 00:18:23,357 You know what that means? 334 00:18:23,357 --> 00:18:26,068 The ability to say, "Yeah, you know, my tics are tough, 335 00:18:26,068 --> 00:18:28,028 but I'm not going to let them stop me." 336 00:18:28,028 --> 00:18:29,154 I have that. 337 00:18:29,154 --> 00:18:32,449 You do have that, I could tell that. 338 00:18:32,449 --> 00:18:36,203 Growing up in general, I think I had a lot of hope. 339 00:18:36,203 --> 00:18:38,539 Honestly, I assumed that I would wake up one day 340 00:18:38,539 --> 00:18:39,748 and it would just be gone. 341 00:18:39,748 --> 00:18:41,834 - You love me. - Thank you. 342 00:18:41,834 --> 00:18:44,920 You really love me. 343 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,380 Thank you so much... 344 00:18:49,091 --> 00:18:51,426 Towards my last year of college, 345 00:18:51,426 --> 00:18:53,178 it started to get very bad again. 346 00:18:56,932 --> 00:19:01,103 At that point, I think we would have done anything. 347 00:19:02,813 --> 00:19:04,189 - Hi. 348 00:19:04,189 --> 00:19:05,482 - Hi, Nancy. - Isabella. 349 00:19:05,482 --> 00:19:06,859 Nice to meet you. 350 00:19:06,859 --> 00:19:09,403 Do you have any fear? 351 00:19:09,403 --> 00:19:10,946 - Not getting rid of it-- - About losing it? 352 00:19:10,946 --> 00:19:13,532 - No. That's all I ever wanted. - No? Okay. 353 00:19:13,532 --> 00:19:14,700 Marc is the first person... 354 00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:16,451 Nancy talked with me and my mom, 355 00:19:16,451 --> 00:19:20,372 and then went downstairs and we did our first EM. 356 00:19:21,665 --> 00:19:25,711 There's so much going on that I can't do things 357 00:19:25,711 --> 00:19:27,796 and tic at the same time. So when I can, 358 00:19:27,796 --> 00:19:29,715 I try to finish the tics, and I sometimes, 359 00:19:29,715 --> 00:19:33,719 I try to tic and do the things I need to for this job 360 00:19:33,719 --> 00:19:35,387 at the same time, but it doesn't work. 361 00:19:35,387 --> 00:19:38,682 So I'll spend hours trying to finish one tic 362 00:19:38,682 --> 00:19:41,059 that I started three hours before. 363 00:19:41,059 --> 00:19:42,394 You have to finish the tic. 364 00:19:42,394 --> 00:19:44,688 Yeah, they don't just happen for me... 365 00:19:44,688 --> 00:19:46,982 It was about day three, 366 00:19:46,982 --> 00:19:49,776 I had the initial perceptual shift. 367 00:19:49,776 --> 00:19:52,863 And we looked back to the first time I remember, 368 00:19:52,863 --> 00:19:54,114 like, really ticcing. 369 00:19:55,365 --> 00:19:59,119 I was in third grade, and I had to clear my throat. 370 00:19:59,870 --> 00:20:00,913 So I did. 371 00:20:01,914 --> 00:20:03,248 Then I kept having to clear it. 372 00:20:05,417 --> 00:20:07,169 The awareness, the shift was that... 373 00:20:08,253 --> 00:20:10,213 ..."What if I had that feeling 374 00:20:10,213 --> 00:20:12,633 and I chose to respond that way?" 375 00:20:12,633 --> 00:20:14,885 Whereas someone else may have had that feeling, 376 00:20:14,885 --> 00:20:17,888 said, "Oh, that's a feeling." And went about their day. 377 00:20:19,765 --> 00:20:22,100 What if bodies are uncomfortable? 378 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:23,644 And that's what I did. 379 00:20:23,644 --> 00:20:26,647 But what if I didn't have to, though? 380 00:20:26,647 --> 00:20:29,316 It made Tourette's a... 381 00:20:33,028 --> 00:20:34,071 a choice. 382 00:20:35,530 --> 00:20:37,407 It just-- It had never occurred to me. 383 00:20:37,407 --> 00:20:39,785 It wasn't something that I ever realized... 384 00:20:41,245 --> 00:20:42,454 could have been... 385 00:20:44,539 --> 00:20:48,043 true. It's just, like, it changed everything. 386 00:20:48,043 --> 00:20:52,005 I always felt that... 387 00:20:52,005 --> 00:20:55,258 I always felt that my body betrayed me when I was seven 388 00:20:55,258 --> 00:20:57,344 {\an8}and I never forgave it. 389 00:20:57,344 --> 00:20:59,805 {\an8}But I realized it might have been my mind. 390 00:21:00,472 --> 00:21:03,016 {\an8}I feel more in charge. 391 00:21:03,016 --> 00:21:04,977 {\an8}And I still am feeling the urges, 392 00:21:04,977 --> 00:21:07,646 {\an8}but they seem to be less intense. 393 00:21:07,646 --> 00:21:10,190 {\an8}Yeah, and I talked with my dad last night for like 20 minutes. 394 00:21:10,190 --> 00:21:12,275 {\an8}He called my mom, he said, "It was really great 395 00:21:12,275 --> 00:21:14,236 {\an8}having such a fluid conversation with her. 396 00:21:14,236 --> 00:21:16,488 {\an8}No freezing, no stopping in the talking, 397 00:21:16,488 --> 00:21:19,032 {\an8}no... none of that." 398 00:21:19,032 --> 00:21:22,369 {\an8}On a scale of one to ten, my OCD was definitely... 399 00:21:23,495 --> 00:21:24,913 {\an8}ten. 400 00:21:24,913 --> 00:21:28,291 {\an8}Or 12. Not 11. Even numbers. 401 00:21:28,291 --> 00:21:31,003 {\an8}Sorry. And now... 402 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,172 {\an8}It's a, uh, maybe a one or two. 403 00:21:35,132 --> 00:21:36,341 {\an8}A lot better. 404 00:21:37,509 --> 00:21:38,719 {\an8}Probably a one. 405 00:21:38,719 --> 00:21:42,014 {\an8}'Cause, you know, it doesn't need to be even. 406 00:21:42,014 --> 00:21:44,433 {\an8}Once in a while, I'll do another tic. 407 00:21:44,433 --> 00:21:49,146 {\an8}but not consistently enough to say that I do those tics. 408 00:21:49,146 --> 00:21:51,732 {\an8}And I don't think I would feel comfortable 409 00:21:51,732 --> 00:21:55,360 {\an8}telling anyone from now on that I have Tourette's. 410 00:21:56,319 --> 00:21:59,698 {\an8}♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 411 00:22:03,535 --> 00:22:04,995 I was super grateful to Nancy. 412 00:22:04,995 --> 00:22:06,747 I was so happy. 413 00:22:06,747 --> 00:22:09,249 Like, it changed my life. It did. 414 00:22:10,792 --> 00:22:13,295 Like, I'm always going to be so grateful for that. 415 00:22:16,673 --> 00:22:19,092 I mean, that has nothing to do with why I left. 416 00:22:27,726 --> 00:22:29,770 A secret group stirring up controversy 417 00:22:29,770 --> 00:22:31,188 here in the Capitol Region. 418 00:22:31,188 --> 00:22:33,440 The report out today says that some female members 419 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,318 have been branded with the founder's initials. 420 00:23:12,854 --> 00:23:16,316 There are things going on that are much more 421 00:23:17,275 --> 00:23:18,819 dangerous than I imagined. 422 00:23:20,695 --> 00:23:23,281 {\an8}Like I knew some shady things were going on, 423 00:23:23,281 --> 00:23:25,117 but I also had justified it. 424 00:23:34,209 --> 00:23:36,086 Hey, Isabella, it's me, um, 425 00:23:36,086 --> 00:23:38,964 just checking in with you. I wanted to see if you're okay, 426 00:23:38,964 --> 00:23:40,340 and when you're coming back? 427 00:23:40,340 --> 00:23:42,467 Okay, so they actually do sound worried. 428 00:23:42,926 --> 00:23:43,844 Fuck! 429 00:23:43,844 --> 00:23:45,220 Hey, Isabella, 430 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:46,346 we haven't heard from you, 431 00:23:46,346 --> 00:23:48,181 and Justin and Marc were looking for you. 432 00:23:48,181 --> 00:23:50,308 So, getting a little worried about you. 433 00:23:50,308 --> 00:23:51,810 And I didn't-- I didn't respond, 434 00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:53,562 and someone else texted me something. 435 00:23:53,562 --> 00:23:54,855 "Hey, can you chat?" 436 00:24:00,819 --> 00:24:03,447 Hi, I'm sorry. 437 00:24:03,447 --> 00:24:04,948 It's been a kind of a crazy week. 438 00:24:04,948 --> 00:24:06,324 Sounds like. 439 00:24:06,324 --> 00:24:09,119 {\an8}I heard you ran out in the middle of the night. 440 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,790 {\an8}I got some information that I didn't think was good. 441 00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:16,751 I didn't think-- 442 00:24:18,086 --> 00:24:19,713 I'm just evaluating some things, 443 00:24:19,713 --> 00:24:23,383 and I didn't think Albany was the best place to do it. 444 00:24:23,383 --> 00:24:25,385 Isabella, who do you think-- what do you-- 445 00:24:25,385 --> 00:24:27,512 Who do you think I am? What do you think I do? 446 00:24:27,512 --> 00:24:30,640 I-- I love you, Marc, I love you so much. 447 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,267 It has nothing to do with-- 448 00:24:32,267 --> 00:24:34,769 It has everything to do with it, darling. 449 00:24:36,229 --> 00:24:38,607 I don't know what-- What happened? 450 00:24:39,482 --> 00:24:40,567 I'm so sad. 451 00:24:40,567 --> 00:24:43,195 No, I'm sad, too. I just-- I got information... 452 00:24:43,195 --> 00:24:44,696 I don't know what you... 453 00:24:44,696 --> 00:24:49,367 Some women decided to do a brand as a way to fucking bond. 454 00:24:49,367 --> 00:24:50,702 No, no, no, no, no. 455 00:24:50,702 --> 00:24:52,871 - Women were told... - Do you think-- 456 00:24:52,871 --> 00:24:55,040 ...that they were going to get a tattoo, 457 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,292 and it was not an informed... 458 00:24:58,460 --> 00:25:00,670 Okay, what if that's not true? 459 00:25:01,296 --> 00:25:02,380 What if it is? 460 00:25:03,715 --> 00:25:06,301 If that was true, Isabella, 461 00:25:06,968 --> 00:25:09,763 that's called illegal. 462 00:25:10,722 --> 00:25:13,600 That's called assault. 463 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:14,768 Yeah, I know. 464 00:25:14,768 --> 00:25:16,478 That's why I don't think it's good. 465 00:25:16,478 --> 00:25:21,775 That's why I'm choosing to not be in Albany right now. 466 00:25:21,775 --> 00:25:24,819 I don't think you understand what you're doing. 467 00:25:24,819 --> 00:25:25,987 What am I doing? 468 00:25:27,322 --> 00:25:28,531 Believing people... 469 00:25:29,908 --> 00:25:32,869 that I don't think are being very honest with you. 470 00:25:32,869 --> 00:25:34,246 And there's nothing I can do. 471 00:25:34,246 --> 00:25:36,206 Other than that I just feel really sad. 472 00:25:36,957 --> 00:25:38,541 Marc, I'm really sad. 473 00:25:39,876 --> 00:25:42,587 But it might be also helpful to look at who you're believing 474 00:25:42,587 --> 00:25:44,464 that may not be honest with you. 475 00:25:44,464 --> 00:25:46,007 You know, you have to decide 476 00:25:46,007 --> 00:25:47,926 who you want to trust. 477 00:25:47,926 --> 00:25:50,887 Nancy and myself, we were able to do things for you 478 00:25:50,887 --> 00:25:53,974 that in your entire life nobody could help you with. 479 00:25:53,974 --> 00:25:57,143 Now, you're just sitting there saying that you can't trust me. 480 00:25:57,143 --> 00:25:59,479 Marc, I'm not saying that I can't trust you. 481 00:25:59,479 --> 00:26:02,357 Yes, you are. You're trusting people 482 00:26:02,357 --> 00:26:05,318 who are doing destructive things. 483 00:26:05,318 --> 00:26:08,113 You realize this might affect the Tourette's? 484 00:26:08,113 --> 00:26:10,448 My Tourette's? Or yours or the study? 485 00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:13,451 Helping people with Tourette. 486 00:26:14,828 --> 00:26:15,829 Well... 487 00:26:17,205 --> 00:26:18,456 There's gonna be a day 488 00:26:18,456 --> 00:26:21,001 when you realize this stuff isn't true, Isabella. 489 00:26:22,919 --> 00:26:25,297 Marc, I pray to God, I wish it wasn't true. 490 00:26:25,297 --> 00:26:26,464 I really do. 491 00:26:27,924 --> 00:26:30,176 I'm telling you right now, Isabella. 492 00:26:31,594 --> 00:26:33,179 It's not true. 493 00:26:34,639 --> 00:26:37,350 I am going to keep helping people get over Tourette's. 494 00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:40,145 You know we have the best results in the world. 495 00:26:41,438 --> 00:26:44,274 I'm gonna hop off, and it's not a personal offence, 496 00:26:44,274 --> 00:26:46,318 like, I don't mean it to be that way. 497 00:26:46,318 --> 00:26:48,278 I care a lot about everyone. 498 00:26:48,278 --> 00:26:50,322 It has nothing to do with the people. 499 00:26:50,322 --> 00:26:51,656 It's just-- It's not-- 500 00:26:51,656 --> 00:26:54,034 Things haven't been handled well, I don't think. 501 00:26:54,034 --> 00:26:55,744 - Okay, I'll see you. - Bye, Marc. 502 00:26:55,744 --> 00:26:58,121 - Be well, Isabella. - Love you. 503 00:27:12,802 --> 00:27:15,055 {\an8}- What? - Mm. 504 00:27:18,224 --> 00:27:19,768 {\an8}Mm, it's so good to see you. 505 00:27:20,852 --> 00:27:22,145 I brought wine and Oreos. 506 00:27:22,145 --> 00:27:23,897 You're the best 507 00:27:25,607 --> 00:27:30,195 I've been getting calls and like, Marc can intellect. 508 00:27:30,195 --> 00:27:33,114 Like, you know, people can intellect things. 509 00:27:33,114 --> 00:27:35,533 - I've known Marc since 2004. - Yeah. 510 00:27:35,533 --> 00:27:37,243 I knew him when he had full-blown Tourette's. 511 00:27:37,243 --> 00:27:39,954 Before I resigned, I was talking to Marc, and I said, "Okay, 512 00:27:39,954 --> 00:27:42,415 under what circumstances would you leave ESP? 513 00:27:42,415 --> 00:27:45,877 Well, what if Keith was convicted of... 514 00:27:47,128 --> 00:27:48,797 embezzling money?" 515 00:27:48,797 --> 00:27:51,174 And he said, "Let the courts decide that." 516 00:27:51,716 --> 00:27:53,051 I was like, "Okay, 517 00:27:53,051 --> 00:27:56,179 what if he was found guilty of rape?" 518 00:27:57,847 --> 00:28:00,600 And he said, "I'm curing... 519 00:28:02,018 --> 00:28:03,019 Tourette's. 520 00:28:04,020 --> 00:28:06,398 I'm changing people's lives. 521 00:28:08,316 --> 00:28:09,859 I will never leave ESP." 522 00:28:10,860 --> 00:28:13,863 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 523 00:28:18,660 --> 00:28:21,579 I just think Keith's a pioneer. 524 00:28:21,579 --> 00:28:23,748 I think he has an incredible mind 525 00:28:23,748 --> 00:28:26,543 and capacity to help people. 526 00:28:28,336 --> 00:28:30,422 A lot of times people will say, "Well, Marc, you know, 527 00:28:30,422 --> 00:28:31,714 why don't you just go break off, 528 00:28:31,714 --> 00:28:33,299 and why don't you just go do your own thing, 529 00:28:33,299 --> 00:28:35,802 and why don't you just go help other people with Tourette's?" 530 00:28:35,802 --> 00:28:37,512 And it's just not that simple. 531 00:28:37,512 --> 00:28:42,684 Because of now how everything is equated to being a sex cult, 532 00:28:42,684 --> 00:28:45,770 anything I do in the world moving forward, 533 00:28:45,770 --> 00:28:47,147 they're going to attack me. 534 00:28:47,147 --> 00:28:51,109 Because I'm unwilling to disavow my friend, Keith Raniere. 535 00:28:51,109 --> 00:28:53,153 I will always be a hated figure. 536 00:29:00,994 --> 00:29:02,328 {\an8}- Hey! - Hi, how's it going? 537 00:29:02,328 --> 00:29:05,540 {\an8}I believe that that the only way that I foresee at the moment 538 00:29:05,540 --> 00:29:08,001 to be able to help people Tourette's in the future, 539 00:29:08,001 --> 00:29:10,628 is I have to expose this injustice. 540 00:29:10,628 --> 00:29:13,089 An inmate at a federal prison. 541 00:29:13,089 --> 00:29:14,424 Raniere. 542 00:29:14,424 --> 00:29:16,634 Hey, Keith. 543 00:29:18,553 --> 00:29:20,263 We're going to do everything we can. 544 00:29:29,898 --> 00:29:31,691 Hello. 545 00:29:31,691 --> 00:29:33,318 How are you? 546 00:29:33,318 --> 00:29:34,903 Good, how are you? I'm Nancy. 547 00:29:34,903 --> 00:29:37,030 Hi, Nancy. Pleasure to meet you. 548 00:29:37,030 --> 00:29:40,742 {\an8}I'm really happy that, um... that I'm... 549 00:29:40,742 --> 00:29:43,536 having an opportunity to speak to you. 550 00:29:43,536 --> 00:29:47,040 My cat is-- Come here, Mouse. Come here. 551 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:48,166 Your cat's name is Mouse? 552 00:29:48,166 --> 00:29:49,751 Yes, wait. You have to see him. 553 00:29:53,421 --> 00:29:56,382 - Hairless cat. - Yes, he's really sweet. 554 00:29:57,717 --> 00:30:00,970 I think he's trying to be here with me during-- during this. 555 00:30:00,970 --> 00:30:03,348 Have you had any support at all? 556 00:30:03,348 --> 00:30:06,351 No, nothing, no professional support. 557 00:30:06,351 --> 00:30:09,604 What's your perception right now of what you went through? 558 00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:12,357 Um. Keith was... 559 00:30:12,357 --> 00:30:14,984 Well, in the beginning, he was kind. 560 00:30:14,984 --> 00:30:19,113 But he got more and more and more controlling 561 00:30:19,113 --> 00:30:20,240 as time went on. 562 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,493 But I don't think I ever thought about leaving. 563 00:30:23,493 --> 00:30:25,912 I-- I just thought... 564 00:30:28,081 --> 00:30:29,165 he was difficult. 565 00:30:29,165 --> 00:30:31,709 I think it's important for people to, 566 00:30:31,709 --> 00:30:34,546 when they look back and deconstruct their-- 567 00:30:34,546 --> 00:30:36,297 this experience, 568 00:30:36,297 --> 00:30:39,884 if you can think of like your life in three identities. 569 00:30:40,677 --> 00:30:42,762 There's the identity before, 570 00:30:42,762 --> 00:30:45,682 where there was something lacking in your life. 571 00:30:45,682 --> 00:30:50,186 So then identity number two is you get almost intoxicated 572 00:30:50,186 --> 00:30:53,690 with this feeling, like, "I found this great thing," 573 00:30:53,690 --> 00:30:55,775 and you get the whole camaraderie 574 00:30:55,775 --> 00:30:56,901 and the community 575 00:30:56,901 --> 00:30:58,820 and all of that and it feels really good. 576 00:30:58,820 --> 00:31:03,157 And then when that world crumbles like it has for you, 577 00:31:03,658 --> 00:31:05,410 who am I now? 578 00:31:05,410 --> 00:31:09,247 But you can get there by looking at your first identity. 579 00:31:09,247 --> 00:31:13,668 And try to get at why were you vulnerable 580 00:31:13,668 --> 00:31:15,920 to these kinds of control tactics? 581 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,881 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 582 00:31:26,347 --> 00:31:28,975 When Keith left the country, 583 00:31:28,975 --> 00:31:31,019 I started waking up in the morning 584 00:31:31,019 --> 00:31:32,854 feeling peaceful. 585 00:31:35,857 --> 00:31:39,527 And I would think to myself, "What is wrong with you?" 586 00:31:39,527 --> 00:31:42,655 You have this wonderful life that he helped you create. 587 00:31:43,489 --> 00:31:45,783 Like, what is wrong with you? 588 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,833 Mic. 589 00:31:54,876 --> 00:31:57,879 So, I have someone who is... 590 00:31:59,505 --> 00:32:00,757 in the external world, 591 00:32:00,757 --> 00:32:04,260 it would look like telling me something I already know. 592 00:32:04,260 --> 00:32:06,262 {\an8}I can-- I can-- 593 00:32:10,016 --> 00:32:11,851 {\an8}Um. In the future, it might be good 594 00:32:11,851 --> 00:32:14,187 if I'm speaking, let me speak. 595 00:32:14,187 --> 00:32:16,939 {\an8}And then-- No, no. And then say that afterwards. 596 00:32:17,815 --> 00:32:18,816 Um... 597 00:32:21,069 --> 00:32:22,904 In any situation, you can learn. 598 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,657 I was terrified of Keith. 599 00:32:27,825 --> 00:32:30,370 Whenever I was in a meeting with other people, 600 00:32:31,245 --> 00:32:33,665 he acted like I wasn't there. 601 00:32:33,665 --> 00:32:38,002 He would correct me whenever I said anything. 602 00:32:39,420 --> 00:32:41,589 He purposely disempowered me. 603 00:32:42,965 --> 00:32:45,635 So when he was around, I never opened my mouth. 604 00:32:49,555 --> 00:32:52,225 But I always wanted his approval. 605 00:32:56,562 --> 00:32:58,106 He got me into a... 606 00:32:59,649 --> 00:33:00,900 You know, like, a reenactment 607 00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:03,653 of trying to get approval from my mother. 608 00:33:07,365 --> 00:33:11,703 When I was six years old, my teacher called a meeting 609 00:33:11,703 --> 00:33:15,707 and she told my mother that I was dyslexic. 610 00:33:17,041 --> 00:33:20,253 And I thought it was something I should be ashamed of. 611 00:33:25,925 --> 00:33:29,679 I didn't do well in school in my early years and... 612 00:33:34,809 --> 00:33:37,812 ...my mom used to call me her "little dummy." 613 00:33:38,563 --> 00:33:41,149 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 614 00:33:41,149 --> 00:33:47,321 She used to say, "If they gave As for people loving you, 615 00:33:47,321 --> 00:33:51,909 Nancy would get an A every time. Everyone loves Nancy." 616 00:33:56,372 --> 00:33:59,083 So I was always wanting to do things 617 00:33:59,083 --> 00:34:01,294 that would make her feel happy with me. 618 00:34:01,294 --> 00:34:05,381 And I grew up and I just accommodated everybody 619 00:34:06,257 --> 00:34:08,593 because I wanted approval. 620 00:34:08,593 --> 00:34:10,136 - Keep your... - Yeah. 621 00:34:10,136 --> 00:34:11,596 - ...walkie-talkie. - Yeah, yeah. 622 00:34:11,596 --> 00:34:13,639 And I believe that Keith knew 623 00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:14,974 that I always needed approval, 624 00:34:14,974 --> 00:34:17,810 and therefore he always withheld approval. 625 00:34:19,020 --> 00:34:20,480 And the more he withheld approval, 626 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,064 the harder I worked. 627 00:34:22,064 --> 00:34:24,317 - Oh, you want me in it a little? - Yeah. But not-- 628 00:34:24,317 --> 00:34:25,860 But just not moving forward. Okay, I'll do this. 629 00:34:25,860 --> 00:34:27,945 At certain points you're directly in front of Keith. 630 00:34:27,945 --> 00:34:29,697 If I didn't behave in the way 631 00:34:29,697 --> 00:34:31,616 he wanted me to behave, 632 00:34:31,616 --> 00:34:35,077 he would tell me I was breaching my ethics 633 00:34:35,077 --> 00:34:37,246 and that I wasn't strong. 634 00:34:38,748 --> 00:34:42,168 I think that's how Keith got me to do everything 635 00:34:42,168 --> 00:34:43,711 that he got me to do. 636 00:34:43,711 --> 00:34:47,423 Constantly made me feel like nothing I did was good enough. 637 00:34:59,894 --> 00:35:02,980 I set this up after I moved back home. 638 00:35:05,233 --> 00:35:08,152 All of the paintings I did before ESP, 639 00:35:08,152 --> 00:35:13,366 I did in pure states of creativity and curiosity. 640 00:35:16,744 --> 00:35:20,373 After I worked with Nancy, I was working on these. 641 00:35:21,791 --> 00:35:25,002 I think that's around the time I stopped finishing paintings. 642 00:35:26,879 --> 00:35:29,841 I haven't really painted since 2015. 643 00:35:31,801 --> 00:35:33,845 Why do we teach you states? 644 00:35:33,845 --> 00:35:35,221 What are we teaching you? 645 00:35:35,221 --> 00:35:37,557 Yeah, that you can control anything, that you can-- 646 00:35:37,557 --> 00:35:42,061 Anytime you feel not good, that's a choice 647 00:35:42,061 --> 00:35:45,064 that you're pretending you're not in control of. 648 00:35:45,064 --> 00:35:47,149 You're pretending that you don't have a choice 649 00:35:47,149 --> 00:35:48,234 in that moment, 650 00:35:48,234 --> 00:35:50,444 or you're just enjoying being miserable. 651 00:35:51,904 --> 00:35:53,948 When I worked with Nancy initially, 652 00:35:53,948 --> 00:35:57,201 I think I recognized choice in a different way. 653 00:35:59,453 --> 00:36:02,081 You see that you can literally do anything 654 00:36:02,081 --> 00:36:04,792 in ways that even just people every day, I think, 655 00:36:04,792 --> 00:36:07,295 don't always recognize. 656 00:36:07,295 --> 00:36:12,592 Except that it becomes basically like, how did you author this? 657 00:36:12,592 --> 00:36:13,968 How is this your fault? 658 00:36:15,636 --> 00:36:17,513 I've been doing a lot of the contortions lately, 659 00:36:17,513 --> 00:36:20,057 and it's, I think, really frustrating 660 00:36:20,057 --> 00:36:23,060 because I know I can stop... 661 00:36:24,353 --> 00:36:27,189 but it's hard. 662 00:36:27,189 --> 00:36:30,192 I was very ashamed of everything about Tourette's 663 00:36:30,192 --> 00:36:33,946 because of how they attributed it to your deficiencies 664 00:36:33,946 --> 00:36:35,990 and the things you're failing at. 665 00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:37,783 We know what we should be, 666 00:36:37,783 --> 00:36:40,870 what we want to be, the perfect us, 667 00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:45,249 versus the physiological values of how we feel. 668 00:36:45,249 --> 00:36:47,335 If you go with your body, 669 00:36:47,335 --> 00:36:50,546 you breach your ideological ethics. 670 00:36:50,546 --> 00:36:53,841 I didn't want to tic because I thought that was me 671 00:36:53,841 --> 00:36:55,801 being a terrible person. 672 00:36:56,761 --> 00:36:58,971 I've been... 673 00:36:58,971 --> 00:37:02,642 I don't know if more emotional is the right way to say it. 674 00:37:02,642 --> 00:37:05,895 It's probably from coming off of the meds. 675 00:37:05,895 --> 00:37:09,315 I was being pressured to go off of meds. 676 00:37:09,315 --> 00:37:11,776 I'd been on about 40 different meds 677 00:37:11,776 --> 00:37:13,486 since the time I was ten. 678 00:37:13,486 --> 00:37:16,113 The physical withdrawal, I wouldn't wish on anyone. 679 00:37:16,113 --> 00:37:18,240 I've been having a lot of anxiety. 680 00:37:19,408 --> 00:37:22,453 I can't eat or sleep. 681 00:37:22,453 --> 00:37:25,247 I just got off the phone with Marc. 682 00:37:25,247 --> 00:37:28,584 He said it's good that my body is doing all these things 683 00:37:28,584 --> 00:37:32,713 because I'm adj-- adjusting and changing. 684 00:37:32,713 --> 00:37:36,217 It doesn't feel good. But it probably is. 685 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,180 Once I stopped ticcing, all of these other things 686 00:37:41,180 --> 00:37:42,932 started to manifest. 687 00:37:44,350 --> 00:37:46,268 My OCD got worse 688 00:37:46,268 --> 00:37:49,355 and I was struggling, like, immensely. 689 00:37:49,355 --> 00:37:53,484 I would reach out to Nancy or I would try to talk to Marc 690 00:37:53,484 --> 00:37:54,735 and everyone would say, 691 00:37:54,735 --> 00:37:56,654 "But why are you choosing to do this?" 692 00:37:56,654 --> 00:37:58,489 ♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 693 00:37:58,489 --> 00:38:01,826 At one point, Nancy brought me aside and goes, 694 00:38:01,826 --> 00:38:04,120 "You're just being very attention seeking." 695 00:38:05,413 --> 00:38:08,499 I remember, she said that and I was so scared. 696 00:38:08,499 --> 00:38:11,460 I didn't want to be attention seeking. 697 00:38:11,460 --> 00:38:14,296 Like I didn't want to be unethical. 698 00:38:15,339 --> 00:38:16,757 So I just withdrew. 699 00:38:21,303 --> 00:38:25,808 And so it's true I stopped ticcing, 700 00:38:25,808 --> 00:38:28,477 but I became broken in other ways. 701 00:38:41,699 --> 00:38:44,035 Probably a year into NXIVM, 702 00:38:44,035 --> 00:38:48,497 we noticed her personality changed dramatically. 703 00:38:49,749 --> 00:38:55,671 She became very controlled, and she had lost her voice. 704 00:38:55,671 --> 00:38:57,923 You joining us, Belle, or are you gonna-- 705 00:38:57,923 --> 00:38:59,842 - I'm gonna stand. - You're gonna stand? 706 00:38:59,842 --> 00:39:01,218 Yeah. 707 00:39:01,218 --> 00:39:03,429 I actually do want to ask you a question, but I don't want 708 00:39:03,429 --> 00:39:06,140 to have a conversation like this, please. 709 00:39:11,979 --> 00:39:15,608 So, during that study, you would be angry. 710 00:39:15,608 --> 00:39:17,777 What was the anger about? 711 00:39:17,777 --> 00:39:20,488 Uh, the curriculum devalues you 712 00:39:20,488 --> 00:39:23,240 without making it obvious that it's putting you down. 713 00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:26,994 Like, Marc suggested I take a penance for still ticcing, 714 00:39:26,994 --> 00:39:28,537 and I was like, "I don't want to do that." 715 00:39:28,537 --> 00:39:29,747 He was like, "No, it's with love!" 716 00:39:29,747 --> 00:39:31,957 What-- What's a penance? What do you mean? 717 00:39:31,957 --> 00:39:34,376 I don't know, something like... 718 00:39:35,461 --> 00:39:38,172 ...to help hold you accountable 719 00:39:38,172 --> 00:39:40,549 for the thing that you say you want to do. 720 00:39:40,549 --> 00:39:41,884 - If you're not doing it-- - But what-- 721 00:39:41,884 --> 00:39:43,052 - What was-- - What did you-- 722 00:39:43,052 --> 00:39:44,220 Anything. I don't know. 723 00:39:44,220 --> 00:39:45,638 People did different things. They would... 724 00:39:45,638 --> 00:39:47,640 - Sweep the ground? - Physical? Mental? 725 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,476 Anything. It could be anything. It could be... 726 00:39:50,476 --> 00:39:52,311 - you know, if you're-- - Give me one of yours. 727 00:39:52,311 --> 00:39:53,813 Do you want me to tell you or... 728 00:39:53,813 --> 00:39:56,690 Give me an example of what you did. 729 00:39:56,690 --> 00:39:58,567 Can we-- Can I? Okay. 730 00:39:58,567 --> 00:40:01,779 So, some people would run a mile every day 731 00:40:01,779 --> 00:40:04,990 or some people would not, you know, eat for a day. 732 00:40:04,990 --> 00:40:07,952 Is... I'm just curious. 733 00:40:07,952 --> 00:40:12,123 Is not being nice simply trying to make you do 734 00:40:12,123 --> 00:40:13,749 what you don't want to do at that moment? 735 00:40:13,749 --> 00:40:15,626 No, it's-- it doesn't matter 736 00:40:15,626 --> 00:40:16,961 what you want to do. It's... 737 00:40:18,212 --> 00:40:19,213 what they want to do. 738 00:40:19,213 --> 00:40:21,674 And then they say it's what you want. 739 00:40:22,424 --> 00:40:24,385 And then they break you, like, 740 00:40:24,385 --> 00:40:26,595 the harder you work, the more you struggle. 741 00:40:26,595 --> 00:40:28,514 And that's how they keep you in. 742 00:40:28,514 --> 00:40:30,182 Hmm. 743 00:40:30,182 --> 00:40:34,228 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 744 00:40:43,279 --> 00:40:49,577 What we found in ESP was that many of us set goals 745 00:40:49,577 --> 00:40:51,078 but found it difficult 746 00:40:51,078 --> 00:40:54,582 because there wasn't any consequence. 747 00:40:54,582 --> 00:40:58,460 Like, I had a woman and she said to me, 748 00:40:58,460 --> 00:41:01,338 "I have a thing where I-- I have two numbers. 749 00:41:01,338 --> 00:41:03,465 My numbers are eight and nine." 750 00:41:03,465 --> 00:41:04,967 And I said, "And how does that limit you?" 751 00:41:04,967 --> 00:41:06,135 And she said, 752 00:41:06,135 --> 00:41:09,388 "Well, I'm always late because I have to do things 753 00:41:09,388 --> 00:41:12,975 89 times or 98 times." 754 00:41:12,975 --> 00:41:15,060 So I disconnected the stimulus response. 755 00:41:15,060 --> 00:41:17,646 And then I said to her, "You're going to have to do 756 00:41:17,646 --> 00:41:22,067 something physical to break the state in the moment." 757 00:41:22,067 --> 00:41:25,029 She said, "Like what?" And I said, "Like, a plank." 758 00:41:26,322 --> 00:41:28,616 Plank position, as though you're about to plank. 759 00:41:28,616 --> 00:41:29,909 Nice, straight line. 760 00:41:29,909 --> 00:41:31,035 Come over here. 761 00:41:46,175 --> 00:41:48,427 If you have a very bad habit, 762 00:41:48,427 --> 00:41:51,597 there's no reason to stop it, really. 763 00:41:51,597 --> 00:41:53,933 So you have to make it feel bad. 764 00:41:56,310 --> 00:41:58,479 The only way we change something 765 00:41:58,479 --> 00:42:00,564 is when change is easier than not changing. 766 00:42:00,564 --> 00:42:02,733 And if you don't commit to a consequence, 767 00:42:02,733 --> 00:42:05,236 you're never going to break this habit. 768 00:42:15,162 --> 00:42:17,331 That's what I do at the center. 769 00:42:19,792 --> 00:42:20,834 Okay? 770 00:42:25,547 --> 00:42:28,384 That's it. Enough for the old lady. 771 00:42:30,386 --> 00:42:32,930 Well, she went-- Where was it that you went to? 772 00:42:32,930 --> 00:42:34,723 - Al-- Albany. - Albany. 773 00:42:35,391 --> 00:42:36,892 That's-- she went there. 774 00:42:36,892 --> 00:42:40,688 And from when she went there to when she came home... 775 00:42:40,688 --> 00:42:43,190 {\an8}God bless whoever did it. 776 00:42:44,108 --> 00:42:45,693 {\an8}All the saints in heaven. 777 00:42:45,693 --> 00:42:48,153 You got your health, you got everything. 778 00:42:48,153 --> 00:42:50,948 You could have a million dollars and not have your health, 779 00:42:50,948 --> 00:42:52,449 what good is it, right? 780 00:42:55,494 --> 00:42:56,495 Yep. 781 00:43:11,093 --> 00:43:13,095 Do you remember the first time I saw you 782 00:43:13,095 --> 00:43:15,764 when I came back from the treatment? 783 00:43:15,764 --> 00:43:17,725 {\an8}Oh, I do remember when you came home 784 00:43:17,725 --> 00:43:19,727 {\an8}and we passed each other, 785 00:43:19,727 --> 00:43:22,229 and I waited for you to, like, smack me a few times? 786 00:43:22,229 --> 00:43:24,023 If we brushed each other, I'd have to do like, a routine. 787 00:43:24,023 --> 00:43:25,774 You'd have to like-- yeah. 788 00:43:25,774 --> 00:43:27,610 So I just stood there, like, waited for it, 789 00:43:27,610 --> 00:43:28,986 and I turned around, 790 00:43:28,986 --> 00:43:30,988 and you were-- you, like, you kept walking. 791 00:43:30,988 --> 00:43:32,948 I was like, "Oh, cool." 792 00:43:32,948 --> 00:43:35,534 I mean, there was a time we couldn't touch her. 793 00:43:35,534 --> 00:43:36,660 Now? 794 00:43:37,578 --> 00:43:40,205 That's my baby. 795 00:43:40,205 --> 00:43:42,458 Just testing it, are you, Mom? 796 00:43:42,458 --> 00:43:44,084 This is what I can't understand, 797 00:43:44,084 --> 00:43:45,586 how they did it. 798 00:43:45,586 --> 00:43:46,754 It was like, 799 00:43:46,754 --> 00:43:50,883 helping us understand Tourette's differently. 800 00:43:52,092 --> 00:43:54,636 But like, it was really difficult. 801 00:43:54,636 --> 00:43:58,724 And, you know, people would say, "But you had Tourette's." 802 00:43:58,724 --> 00:44:00,934 So there's-- That was always a good one. 803 00:44:00,934 --> 00:44:03,562 People want to-- "But you had Tourette's." 804 00:44:03,562 --> 00:44:06,357 - The key word here is "had." - Yeah. Yep. 805 00:44:07,691 --> 00:44:10,402 Yeah. The positive is, 806 00:44:10,402 --> 00:44:13,739 your symptoms are diminished or eliminated. 807 00:44:13,739 --> 00:44:16,909 You've built new skills because of NXIVM. 808 00:44:16,909 --> 00:44:21,497 I believe they can make you more productive, more efficient. 809 00:44:21,497 --> 00:44:22,706 And those are all positives 810 00:44:22,706 --> 00:44:24,583 and you did not have that when you left here. 811 00:44:24,583 --> 00:44:27,211 You don't think there are after-effects? 812 00:44:27,211 --> 00:44:28,462 Oh, I'm sure there are. 813 00:44:28,462 --> 00:44:32,299 But whatever happened there, created this... 814 00:44:33,092 --> 00:44:34,927 effect on your sister. 815 00:44:34,927 --> 00:44:36,720 She was taking medications to the point 816 00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:38,931 where we were frightened for her longevity. 817 00:44:38,931 --> 00:44:41,350 No, I mean, I agree with you guys completely. 818 00:44:41,350 --> 00:44:44,186 It's just, a lot of it was when I came home, 819 00:44:44,186 --> 00:44:46,814 you guys didn't see how hard it was. 820 00:44:46,814 --> 00:44:48,690 It was like, "Okay, you need to get a job. 821 00:44:48,690 --> 00:44:49,858 You need to get going." 822 00:44:49,858 --> 00:44:52,403 It wasn't even, like, how far I've come. 823 00:44:52,403 --> 00:44:54,613 It was like, "You're behind." 824 00:44:55,322 --> 00:44:57,408 Once again, like in ESP, 825 00:44:57,408 --> 00:45:00,244 I don't feel a lot of choice here. 826 00:45:01,161 --> 00:45:02,913 Our experience has been 827 00:45:02,913 --> 00:45:04,915 that if we don't set expectations... 828 00:45:06,166 --> 00:45:07,292 nothing happens. 829 00:45:07,292 --> 00:45:12,840 You don't realize how much, how much it's-- it's taken 830 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,634 to get to this point. I'm getting better, 831 00:45:15,634 --> 00:45:17,636 but I'm not in a healthy space here. 832 00:45:17,636 --> 00:45:19,430 Yeah, I... this is... 833 00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:23,183 This is-- I'm gonna-- I'm gonna step away 834 00:45:23,183 --> 00:45:25,227 'cause I'm a little defensive about it, 835 00:45:25,227 --> 00:45:26,311 'cause I'm really angry. 836 00:45:26,311 --> 00:45:27,938 - I think so. Yeah. - All right. 837 00:45:30,232 --> 00:45:31,692 I don't know what's going on, Merr. 838 00:45:31,692 --> 00:45:34,820 - I just... don't know, Merr. - Hmm. 839 00:45:36,822 --> 00:45:39,032 My approach to Keith and the leadership 840 00:45:39,032 --> 00:45:42,619 and all the bad is, that's bad. 841 00:45:42,619 --> 00:45:46,540 It doesn't change the reality. She was able to do something 842 00:45:46,540 --> 00:45:50,002 simply because she began to believe in herself to do it. 843 00:45:50,002 --> 00:45:52,921 And it is supportive people who cared about her around her. 844 00:45:52,921 --> 00:45:55,799 I cannot believe you can separate it... 845 00:45:57,468 --> 00:45:58,635 the way you are. 846 00:45:59,887 --> 00:46:01,805 No. No. 847 00:46:01,805 --> 00:46:04,600 I-- I-- It makes me so angry... 848 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,019 - Hmm. - ...that people with power 849 00:46:07,019 --> 00:46:10,147 are taking, you know, were taking advantage of... 850 00:46:10,981 --> 00:46:12,858 of their knowledge... 851 00:46:12,858 --> 00:46:14,902 ...and their position. 852 00:46:14,902 --> 00:46:18,322 I'm not condoning it. What they did was duplicitous. 853 00:46:20,073 --> 00:46:21,658 But still there was good. 854 00:46:23,911 --> 00:46:25,579 And that good is real. 855 00:46:25,579 --> 00:46:28,957 ♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 856 00:46:38,884 --> 00:46:41,345 People didn't stay in NXIVM 857 00:46:41,345 --> 00:46:44,389 or even in DOS because they were coerced. 858 00:46:44,389 --> 00:46:46,975 They stayed in it because they really thought 859 00:46:46,975 --> 00:46:50,187 they were making society and the world better, 860 00:46:50,187 --> 00:46:53,148 you know, through these very tangible things. 861 00:46:53,148 --> 00:46:56,193 The Tourette study was just fascinating. 862 00:46:56,193 --> 00:46:58,612 Personal growth is hard to measure. 863 00:46:58,612 --> 00:47:02,658 The Tourette's is measurable. You know, you could see it. 864 00:47:02,658 --> 00:47:06,370 I think it really comes down to, "Does this group do good?" 865 00:47:06,370 --> 00:47:09,289 And if it does, and I think it does, 866 00:47:09,289 --> 00:47:12,209 I don't think a jury is going to want the government 867 00:47:12,209 --> 00:47:13,418 to have destroyed it. 868 00:47:15,128 --> 00:47:18,090 {\an8}Oh, I-- I don't buy any of it. 869 00:47:18,090 --> 00:47:21,468 {\an8}There have been studies showing that cognitive behavioral therapy 870 00:47:21,468 --> 00:47:24,137 {\an8}can be very effective in Tourette's. 871 00:47:25,722 --> 00:47:27,224 So there may have been techniques 872 00:47:27,224 --> 00:47:28,767 that Nancy Salzman was able to use 873 00:47:28,767 --> 00:47:32,604 that did reduce some small number of people's tics, 874 00:47:32,604 --> 00:47:34,731 but that had nothing to do with Keith Raniere 875 00:47:34,731 --> 00:47:36,233 or NXIVM teachings. 876 00:47:38,527 --> 00:47:40,737 One of the things that made NXIVM so dangerous 877 00:47:40,737 --> 00:47:43,907 was the way it would use some legitimate psychological tools 878 00:47:43,907 --> 00:47:46,243 in a really manipulative, coercive way. 879 00:47:49,621 --> 00:47:51,748 It's really sad because some of the people 880 00:47:51,748 --> 00:47:54,001 who ended up in this so-called study 881 00:47:54,001 --> 00:47:55,335 were so vulnerable, 882 00:47:55,335 --> 00:47:58,130 they were absolutely desperate to deal with this serious, 883 00:47:58,130 --> 00:48:00,299 complicated disease. 884 00:48:00,299 --> 00:48:02,718 And they just ended up being harmed further. 885 00:48:04,303 --> 00:48:08,098 There was all this pressure on them to show improvement 886 00:48:08,098 --> 00:48:10,642 so that Keith and NXIVM would look good. 887 00:48:12,561 --> 00:48:14,187 It's just completely unethical 888 00:48:14,187 --> 00:48:16,481 to experiment on people this way. 889 00:48:26,867 --> 00:48:28,368 I told my parents last night 890 00:48:28,368 --> 00:48:29,870 that I was coming here. 891 00:48:32,539 --> 00:48:35,292 Going to the trial, I think, will be helpful 892 00:48:35,292 --> 00:48:38,462 just to process and get a sense of closure. 893 00:49:00,609 --> 00:49:02,569 It's taken me quite a while to understand 894 00:49:02,569 --> 00:49:06,031 that she's probably experienced something like PTSD. 895 00:49:08,033 --> 00:49:09,242 The deal with the devil 896 00:49:09,242 --> 00:49:11,411 was going in with our eyes wide open, 897 00:49:11,411 --> 00:49:14,206 knowing that there was weird stuff going on 898 00:49:14,206 --> 00:49:15,582 in the background here. 899 00:49:16,583 --> 00:49:18,752 But we were willing to take... 900 00:49:20,087 --> 00:49:21,797 what could be a big risk... 901 00:49:23,215 --> 00:49:24,591 to get help for Isabella. 902 00:49:26,593 --> 00:49:29,388 And we believed that she would be protected 903 00:49:29,388 --> 00:49:32,974 by someone like Nancy, who had daughters herself. 904 00:49:33,976 --> 00:49:36,228 {\an8}♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 905 00:49:39,731 --> 00:49:40,774 Hello. 906 00:49:44,486 --> 00:49:46,863 She used to do these, like... 907 00:49:46,863 --> 00:49:49,241 {\an8}I'd come home from a party or from whatever 908 00:49:49,241 --> 00:49:52,411 {\an8}and I'd have to wake her up to, like, tell her that I was home, 909 00:49:52,411 --> 00:49:55,038 {\an8}and she'd like smell me... 910 00:49:55,038 --> 00:49:58,041 ...to see if I had been like, you know, I assume smoking 911 00:49:58,041 --> 00:49:59,918 - or drinking or something. - Drinking. 912 00:50:03,338 --> 00:50:05,549 Like, she'd wake up inhaling me. 913 00:50:05,549 --> 00:50:06,925 The-- 914 00:50:06,925 --> 00:50:08,885 There was one time when Lauren and I 915 00:50:08,885 --> 00:50:11,263 got really high and we came home, 916 00:50:11,263 --> 00:50:15,058 and Keith was over. 917 00:50:15,058 --> 00:50:17,352 - No! Really? - Yes. 918 00:50:17,352 --> 00:50:18,478 This is something that we... 919 00:50:18,478 --> 00:50:20,731 Was this after Lauren graduated? 920 00:50:20,731 --> 00:50:22,190 Yeah, it was early. 921 00:50:22,190 --> 00:50:23,775 - It was super early. - So it was when I first met Keith, right. 922 00:50:23,775 --> 00:50:25,569 I don't even know if ESP started yet. 923 00:50:25,569 --> 00:50:27,154 No, it was probably that summer. 924 00:50:27,154 --> 00:50:29,239 But we kind of like, my mom already started learning 925 00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,992 about parasitic strategies. 926 00:50:31,992 --> 00:50:35,370 And so, things that Lauren and I were doing... 927 00:50:35,370 --> 00:50:38,165 ...she was like, "You're just being a parasite." 928 00:50:38,165 --> 00:50:41,084 We were like, "What the fuck are you even talking about?" 929 00:50:41,084 --> 00:50:42,669 They were so mad at me. 930 00:50:42,669 --> 00:50:45,005 Like, who is this person? 931 00:50:45,005 --> 00:50:47,048 - What are you being taught? - You guys were-- Lauren was-- 932 00:50:47,048 --> 00:50:49,551 You were trying to hold us accountable 933 00:50:49,551 --> 00:50:52,012 with these like new strategies that you had. 934 00:50:52,012 --> 00:50:53,638 You know, I always wanted to be 935 00:50:53,638 --> 00:50:55,682 - a good mother. - Of course. 936 00:50:55,682 --> 00:50:59,102 No, of course, which is why we did all of this stuff. 937 00:50:59,102 --> 00:51:02,481 - Why we followed you anywhere. - Right. 938 00:51:07,527 --> 00:51:11,364 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 939 00:51:47,442 --> 00:51:49,319 How could someone who created something 940 00:51:49,319 --> 00:51:50,904 that was so beautiful, 941 00:51:50,904 --> 00:51:52,948 do something that was so terrible? 942 00:51:56,117 --> 00:51:58,662 When I first hired my lawyer, he said, 943 00:51:58,662 --> 00:52:03,208 "Anybody who stands trial with Keith will go to jail. 944 00:52:04,167 --> 00:52:05,585 You have to plead guilty." 945 00:52:06,837 --> 00:52:08,922 And then he said, "You have to convince your daughter 946 00:52:08,922 --> 00:52:10,507 to plead guilty too." 947 00:52:13,343 --> 00:52:15,136 We tried to have the case severed 948 00:52:15,136 --> 00:52:19,683 so that the sex crimes were on-- in one case 949 00:52:19,683 --> 00:52:22,227 and the non-sex crimes were in another case, 950 00:52:22,227 --> 00:52:24,563 because they're very different crimes. 951 00:52:24,563 --> 00:52:27,232 But they made it an enterprise and they said 952 00:52:27,232 --> 00:52:28,775 they're not severing the case. 953 00:52:30,068 --> 00:52:34,197 I think they arrested me because they wanted to pit 954 00:52:34,197 --> 00:52:35,824 Lauren and I against each other. 955 00:52:39,286 --> 00:52:42,163 At that point, the only thing we could do is plead guilty 956 00:52:42,163 --> 00:52:47,252 because if I didn't plead guilty and get Lauren to plead guilty, 957 00:52:47,252 --> 00:52:49,963 she would have gone to jail for ten or more years. 958 00:52:52,924 --> 00:52:56,094 Lauren took a little while to come to terms with it. 959 00:52:57,971 --> 00:53:00,056 The body can do so much more 960 00:53:00,056 --> 00:53:02,267 than the mind alone. 961 00:53:02,267 --> 00:53:05,270 There's one drill that we do. You wanna step up? 962 00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:06,646 I mean, I think you've... 963 00:53:06,646 --> 00:53:08,440 Follow my hands with your hands, right? 964 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,484 Follow them exactly. Pretty good. 965 00:53:11,484 --> 00:53:13,570 But you're thinking too much. 966 00:53:13,570 --> 00:53:16,072 Now, if you do it with me, uh, if-- if I don't-- 967 00:53:16,072 --> 00:53:18,074 - You-- you're not moving. - Oh, you want me to do-- 968 00:53:18,074 --> 00:53:19,743 Oh, I'm in the other position. 969 00:53:22,579 --> 00:53:24,205 I mean, I'm not-- 970 00:53:24,205 --> 00:53:25,999 Oh! 971 00:53:25,999 --> 00:53:27,459 - My honey. - Oh. 972 00:53:27,459 --> 00:53:30,337 - But-- Are you okay? - Yeah, just give me one sec. 973 00:53:30,337 --> 00:53:31,504 Please hit me. 974 00:53:31,504 --> 00:53:33,506 No, I don't want to. 975 00:53:33,506 --> 00:53:34,799 I'm s-- I'm sorry 976 00:53:34,799 --> 00:53:37,135 - for the-- for the strike. - It's okay. It's okay. 977 00:53:37,135 --> 00:53:39,429 But if you learn to suspend your mind, 978 00:53:39,429 --> 00:53:41,097 then the body can do all sorts of things 979 00:53:41,097 --> 00:53:43,266 that you've never done before. 980 00:53:43,266 --> 00:53:45,101 So I think what you need to decide 981 00:53:45,101 --> 00:53:47,479 is what do you really want 982 00:53:47,479 --> 00:53:49,314 and how much are you willing to devote 983 00:53:49,314 --> 00:53:50,690 to being a master at it? 984 00:53:53,401 --> 00:53:55,528 She just loved him and she wanted to believe 985 00:53:55,528 --> 00:53:57,656 that it wasn't what it was. 986 00:53:58,531 --> 00:53:59,574 Are you okay? 987 00:53:59,574 --> 00:54:00,951 - Yeah. - Yeah. Okay. 988 00:54:03,703 --> 00:54:05,288 It was very difficult for her, 989 00:54:05,288 --> 00:54:08,583 and what she did was very, very difficult for her, 990 00:54:08,583 --> 00:54:11,378 and she was the only one who could do it. 991 00:54:13,546 --> 00:54:16,508 Testify about the sorority. 992 00:54:16,508 --> 00:54:18,635 ♪ (SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 993 00:54:18,635 --> 00:54:20,720 Lauren gave them more information 994 00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:22,639 than they knew existed. 995 00:54:23,890 --> 00:54:25,433 She really turned the case. 996 00:54:28,395 --> 00:54:29,521 The second weekend, 997 00:54:29,521 --> 00:54:31,481 the federal NXIVM trial wraps up in Brooklyn 998 00:54:31,481 --> 00:54:33,566 with Lauren Salzman on the stand. 999 00:54:33,566 --> 00:54:35,193 Lauren Salzman held 1000 00:54:35,193 --> 00:54:36,945 several high-ranking positions 1001 00:54:36,945 --> 00:54:39,739 and acted as times as a recruiter, teacher, 1002 00:54:39,739 --> 00:54:41,700 and a DOS master. 1003 00:54:41,700 --> 00:54:43,535 Salzman is the first co-conspirator 1004 00:54:43,535 --> 00:54:46,329 to testify against Keith Raniere. 1005 00:54:46,329 --> 00:54:48,707 We will be keeping our eye on what could turn out 1006 00:54:48,707 --> 00:54:51,668 to be a very pivotal day in the case. 1007 00:54:54,045 --> 00:54:55,505 The government may call 1008 00:54:55,505 --> 00:54:57,757 its next witness to the stand. 1009 00:54:57,757 --> 00:54:59,050 The government calls 1010 00:54:59,050 --> 00:55:00,552 Lauren Salzman to the stand. 1011 00:55:03,972 --> 00:55:05,390 Good morning, Ms. Salzman. 1012 00:55:06,182 --> 00:55:07,308 Good morning. 1013 00:55:08,601 --> 00:55:10,854 How long were you a part of NXIVM? 1014 00:55:13,940 --> 00:55:15,692 Almost 20 years. 1015 00:55:15,692 --> 00:55:18,528 Who first approached you about DOS? 1016 00:55:18,528 --> 00:55:20,739 Keith first approached me. 1017 00:55:20,739 --> 00:55:23,700 He said that he wanted to make our relationship closer. 1018 00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:25,994 Let me into your space. 1019 00:55:25,994 --> 00:55:27,704 And he asked me what I was willing to do 1020 00:55:27,704 --> 00:55:30,749 for my growth and for my commitment to him. 1021 00:55:31,958 --> 00:55:33,126 What did you say? 1022 00:55:35,086 --> 00:55:36,171 Anything. 1023 00:55:38,506 --> 00:55:39,632 Anything. 1024 00:55:39,632 --> 00:55:42,802 ♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC CONCLUDES) ♪ 1025 00:55:46,181 --> 00:55:50,852 ♪ ("PIANO IN THE SKY" BY WINONA OAK PLAYING) ♪ 1026 00:55:53,354 --> 00:55:58,026 ♪ There's a piano in the sky ♪ 1027 00:55:58,026 --> 00:56:02,030 ♪ I hear it playing All the time ♪ 1028 00:56:03,531 --> 00:56:07,243 ♪ There's a rope I'm holding tight ♪ 1029 00:56:08,328 --> 00:56:12,791 ♪ I dream of falling Every night ♪ 1030 00:56:12,791 --> 00:56:16,628 ♪ I'm tired of thinking That I don't deserve you ♪ 1031 00:56:18,004 --> 00:56:22,801 ♪ I'm dreading the day When you let me go ♪ 1032 00:56:22,801 --> 00:56:27,138 ♪ So take all this love From me ♪ 1033 00:56:27,138 --> 00:56:32,519 ♪ I don't want to feel anymore ♪ 1034 00:56:32,519 --> 00:56:37,148 ♪ Just take this heart of me ♪ 1035 00:56:37,148 --> 00:56:39,818 ♪ You had every part of me ♪ 1036 00:56:39,818 --> 00:56:43,947 ♪ I'll be fine, I promise ♪ 1037 00:56:43,947 --> 00:56:50,286 ♪ Don't say, don't say Don't say, don't say ♪ 1038 00:56:50,286 --> 00:56:54,249 ♪ There's a way To live without me, baby ♪ 1039 00:56:54,249 --> 00:56:59,796 ♪ Too late, too late It's all too late ♪ 1040 00:56:59,796 --> 00:57:05,009 ♪ So I'll stay till we break ♪ 1041 00:57:05,009 --> 00:57:08,930 ♪ ("PIANO IN THE SKY" CONCLUDES) ♪