1 00:00:17,183 --> 00:00:20,019 (VIDEO CASSETTE CLATTERING) 2 00:00:20,019 --> 00:00:23,231 (STATIC) 3 00:00:24,816 --> 00:00:27,736 Keith Raniere has done something that has never been 4 00:00:27,736 --> 00:00:30,572 documented before in the history of psychology 5 00:00:30,572 --> 00:00:33,700 or any of the information on human potential. 6 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:36,911 He has quantified the structure of emotions, 7 00:00:36,911 --> 00:00:38,371 the nature of emotions, 8 00:00:38,371 --> 00:00:40,790 and how human beings either limit 9 00:00:40,790 --> 00:00:43,501 or empower themselves, with their emotions. 10 00:00:43,501 --> 00:00:44,627 (STATIC) 11 00:00:46,629 --> 00:00:47,797 NANCY SALZMAN: In ESP, 12 00:00:47,797 --> 00:00:51,217 we taught something called "state control." 13 00:00:51,217 --> 00:00:54,262 A series of events happen, we make a meaning, 14 00:00:54,262 --> 00:00:59,976 and based on that meaning, we have an emotional reaction, 15 00:00:59,976 --> 00:01:03,271 which means we're choosing the emotional reaction 16 00:01:03,271 --> 00:01:05,398 based on the meaning. 17 00:01:05,398 --> 00:01:08,401 Right? We may not be aware we're choosing it, 18 00:01:08,401 --> 00:01:10,361 but we are actually choosing it. 19 00:01:11,821 --> 00:01:17,243 And we do exercises with people so that they begin to gain 20 00:01:17,243 --> 00:01:21,164 a feeling of control over those choices. 21 00:01:21,164 --> 00:01:23,041 So, if something happens, 22 00:01:23,041 --> 00:01:25,794 and I have an impulse to be angry, 23 00:01:25,794 --> 00:01:28,880 I can act on that impulse and yell at you 24 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,173 and scream at you, 25 00:01:30,173 --> 00:01:34,677 or I can have the impulse and choose not to indulge it. 26 00:01:34,677 --> 00:01:37,263 So I can choose to bring up a state. 27 00:01:37,263 --> 00:01:41,309 I can be sitting here like this right now and I can say, 28 00:01:41,309 --> 00:01:47,732 "I am so mad, I can't stand it! This is not acceptable to me!" 29 00:01:48,233 --> 00:01:49,234 Or not. 30 00:01:51,402 --> 00:01:52,821 ♪ (EERIE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 31 00:01:55,365 --> 00:02:00,370 ♪ ("DREAM STATE" FT. BONNIE PIESSE BY SON LUX PLAYING) ♪ 32 00:02:01,579 --> 00:02:03,665 ♪ Days we were young ♪ 33 00:02:03,665 --> 00:02:09,295 ♪ We took photographs Of everything we could see ♪ 34 00:02:09,295 --> 00:02:12,799 ♪ We had to run from it ♪ 35 00:02:12,799 --> 00:02:19,722 ♪ Priest and prophetess We were nothing we would defy ♪ 36 00:02:20,807 --> 00:02:22,433 ♪ Oh ♪ 37 00:02:22,433 --> 00:02:28,690 ♪ Invisible skin Where is the world within? ♪ 38 00:02:28,690 --> 00:02:33,611 ♪ Invincible skin It's how we all begin ♪ 39 00:02:35,655 --> 00:02:40,994 ♪ ("DREAM STATE" CONCLUDES) ♪ 40 00:02:43,454 --> 00:02:47,667 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 41 00:02:48,501 --> 00:02:49,836 (BIRDS CHIRPING) 42 00:02:51,337 --> 00:02:53,047 REPORTER 1: The trial against alleged cult leader, 43 00:02:53,047 --> 00:02:55,466 Keith Raniere, entering its second week today. 44 00:02:55,466 --> 00:02:57,886 REPORTER 2: Raniere is facing a number of charges, 45 00:02:57,886 --> 00:03:00,638 including sex trafficking and racketeering. 46 00:03:05,393 --> 00:03:07,687 NANCY: Uh, you know, it's hard to process this. 47 00:03:07,687 --> 00:03:12,066 I think it takes a long time, and I haven't had therapy. 48 00:03:13,902 --> 00:03:17,030 I have thought that it would give me a way 49 00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:19,115 of just talking it all through. 50 00:03:21,367 --> 00:03:22,410 (OBJECTS CLATTERING) 51 00:03:30,501 --> 00:03:32,211 These are all Keith. 52 00:03:35,173 --> 00:03:39,928 He didn't want us to throw away anything he ever wrote. 53 00:03:42,472 --> 00:03:44,641 When we were creating the intensive... 54 00:03:46,225 --> 00:03:49,354 he would draw these on the floor of my house. 55 00:03:50,730 --> 00:03:56,611 "A causes B in the past, event B, event A. 56 00:03:57,195 --> 00:03:59,238 Uh, the future. 57 00:03:59,238 --> 00:04:02,617 So we have nothing to do with past events." 58 00:04:04,619 --> 00:04:06,120 I don't know what he was trying to say, 59 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,456 but we laminated it. 60 00:04:08,456 --> 00:04:12,377 Twenty years is right here. Twenty years of curriculum. 61 00:04:15,088 --> 00:04:16,881 KEITH RANIERE: If you represent this as you... 62 00:04:19,133 --> 00:04:20,301 would you say 63 00:04:20,301 --> 00:04:23,262 that there is what we'll call "optimal you"? 64 00:04:23,262 --> 00:04:24,514 Or optimal... 65 00:04:24,514 --> 00:04:29,394 NANCY: The idea was that he had this very special skill 66 00:04:29,394 --> 00:04:31,521 to create behavior change. 67 00:04:31,521 --> 00:04:32,647 It wasn't a science, 68 00:04:32,647 --> 00:04:34,315 but he wanted to make it a science. 69 00:04:34,315 --> 00:04:36,567 So it had to be reproducible, 70 00:04:36,567 --> 00:04:39,570 verifiable, consistent, and measurable. 71 00:04:39,570 --> 00:04:43,282 By the way, I am doing this completely extemporaneously. 72 00:04:43,282 --> 00:04:44,909 I'm imagining... (LAUGHS) 73 00:04:44,909 --> 00:04:50,123 NANCY: But it wasn't like he had the technology done. 74 00:04:50,748 --> 00:04:52,500 He had an idea. 75 00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:54,752 And then he had a bunch of concepts. 76 00:04:54,752 --> 00:04:57,296 And he started teaching me parts of it. 77 00:04:58,464 --> 00:05:01,843 This is Keith and Nancy, and it's 6:02 am. 78 00:05:01,843 --> 00:05:04,679 KEITH: So, tell me, what is responsibility? 79 00:05:04,679 --> 00:05:07,932 NANCY: Okay, uh, responsibility is-- 80 00:05:07,932 --> 00:05:09,434 KEITH: This is pretty simple and easy. 81 00:05:09,434 --> 00:05:12,895 NANCY: Yeah, it's-- it's the causes and the effects. 82 00:05:12,895 --> 00:05:16,858 Uh, your-- your participation in the causes and the effects. 83 00:05:16,858 --> 00:05:18,818 Yeah. So that's some-- something you can affect. 84 00:05:18,818 --> 00:05:20,945 - NANCY: Mm-hmm. -(PEN SCRATCHING) 85 00:05:20,945 --> 00:05:24,198 NANCY: He thought we were only going to need 20 modules. 86 00:05:24,198 --> 00:05:28,453 I wrote 2000 modules by the time ESP was done. 87 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:32,874 They were Keith's concepts, and I codified them. 88 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,838 When I was first starting out in my professional career, 89 00:05:38,838 --> 00:05:41,257 I began to really think about this thing, 90 00:05:41,257 --> 00:05:42,967 the mind-body connection. 91 00:05:42,967 --> 00:05:46,387 The more I learned, the more I realized that I didn't know. 92 00:05:48,848 --> 00:05:53,061 NANCY: I was always fascinated by how much we could do 93 00:05:53,061 --> 00:05:55,772 using our mind over our body. 94 00:05:55,772 --> 00:05:59,525 Did you ever hear a story about a 110-pound woman 95 00:05:59,525 --> 00:06:02,361 who picked up a 4000-pound car 96 00:06:02,361 --> 00:06:05,073 because she thought her baby was underneath it? 97 00:06:05,073 --> 00:06:08,785 Human beings have incredible resources 98 00:06:08,785 --> 00:06:11,913 and we can produce unprecedented results 99 00:06:11,913 --> 00:06:14,415 under the right set of circumstances. 100 00:06:15,833 --> 00:06:20,129 NANCY: I always wanted to know what the limits 101 00:06:20,129 --> 00:06:22,131 of our model was. 102 00:06:22,131 --> 00:06:23,758 I wanted to work with chronic pain. 103 00:06:23,758 --> 00:06:25,259 I wanted to work with eating dis-- 104 00:06:25,259 --> 00:06:28,012 I wanted to work with a number of things. 105 00:06:28,012 --> 00:06:31,390 Keith, he said before we work with people with disorders, 106 00:06:31,390 --> 00:06:33,476 I want us to work with healthy people 107 00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:36,312 who just want to change patterns of behavior 108 00:06:36,312 --> 00:06:37,396 that limit them. 109 00:06:38,648 --> 00:06:42,151 But people would come who would have certain disorders 110 00:06:42,151 --> 00:06:44,320 and they would say, "Will this help this?" 111 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,656 (GRUNTS) 112 00:06:47,657 --> 00:06:50,576 NANCY: And then Marc Elliot showed up. 113 00:06:51,536 --> 00:06:52,745 (GRUNTS) 114 00:06:59,794 --> 00:07:01,921 MARC ELLIOT: I started ticcing when I was five years old. 115 00:07:03,756 --> 00:07:05,967 {\an8}Started with eye blinking. 116 00:07:05,967 --> 00:07:10,138 {\an8}In high school, my Tourette's got way worse. 117 00:07:10,138 --> 00:07:12,890 The way that I would describe it is that there's an itch 118 00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:14,433 and there's a scratch. 119 00:07:14,433 --> 00:07:16,519 So Tourette syndrome, in my opinion, 120 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:18,688 is that very uncomfortable itch. 121 00:07:18,688 --> 00:07:20,231 (GRUNTS) I won't tic. 122 00:07:20,231 --> 00:07:21,649 MARC: And then the tic 123 00:07:21,649 --> 00:07:24,402 is actually someone scratching that itch. 124 00:07:24,402 --> 00:07:26,654 It's not like I'm possessed by the devil, 125 00:07:26,654 --> 00:07:27,905 and-- and... (GRUNTS) 126 00:07:27,905 --> 00:07:30,491 ...something's moving my mouth. I was moving it. 127 00:07:30,491 --> 00:07:32,827 It's just very hard not to scratch it. 128 00:07:33,494 --> 00:07:37,874 {\an8}MARC: I tried all sorts of different treatments. 129 00:07:37,874 --> 00:07:39,292 I tried neuroleptic drugs, 130 00:07:39,292 --> 00:07:41,919 like very serious anti-psychotic drugs 131 00:07:41,919 --> 00:07:45,256 which the side effects of, I mean, you're so lethargic, 132 00:07:45,256 --> 00:07:46,382 you're so sleepy, 133 00:07:46,382 --> 00:07:47,925 it's almost like you're a zombie. 134 00:07:49,844 --> 00:07:52,054 And it finally got to the point that I decided, 135 00:07:52,054 --> 00:07:54,807 forget medication, I'm just gonna live my life. 136 00:07:54,807 --> 00:07:56,559 (MARC GRUNTS, CLACKS TEETH) 137 00:07:56,559 --> 00:07:57,768 MARC: I wasn't waiting for the cure. 138 00:07:57,768 --> 00:07:59,937 In fact, it was the direct opposite. 139 00:07:59,937 --> 00:08:01,022 (MARC GRUNTS) 140 00:08:01,022 --> 00:08:03,566 Because I can't stop this. 141 00:08:03,566 --> 00:08:05,776 The best path for me to have a better life, 142 00:08:05,776 --> 00:08:08,446 is to then get the whole world to accept me. 143 00:08:08,779 --> 00:08:10,114 (GRUNTS) 144 00:08:10,948 --> 00:08:12,033 I have Tourette's by the way, 145 00:08:12,033 --> 00:08:13,367 just gonna throw that out there, okay? 146 00:08:13,367 --> 00:08:15,995 People look at me and make a lot of assumptions 147 00:08:15,995 --> 00:08:17,538 about who I am as a person. 148 00:08:17,538 --> 00:08:18,789 MARC: I was 24 years old, 149 00:08:18,789 --> 00:08:22,376 speaking about compassion and tolerance. 150 00:08:22,376 --> 00:08:26,297 It was a dream come true externally. 151 00:08:26,297 --> 00:08:29,342 But internally, the thing that I didn't have was peace. 152 00:08:30,676 --> 00:08:32,720 And then I learned about ESP. 153 00:08:33,846 --> 00:08:36,015 And this is what's most important. 154 00:08:36,015 --> 00:08:38,267 I did not go for Tourette's. 155 00:08:38,267 --> 00:08:41,896 It wasn't even an iota of a thought in my mind 156 00:08:41,896 --> 00:08:47,235 about somehow this training could affect my Tourette's. 157 00:08:50,696 --> 00:08:52,573 - NANCY: Hey, everybody. - LEADER 1: Stay standing. 158 00:08:52,573 --> 00:08:54,200 - LEADER 2: Hello. - NANCY: How are you all? 159 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,495 MARC: Nancy comes in and she picks me to be the demo 160 00:08:57,495 --> 00:08:58,829 of the fear sourcing. 161 00:08:58,829 --> 00:09:03,000 A fear sourcing is going back to the root of your fear. 162 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,503 You had an experience at some time, 163 00:09:05,503 --> 00:09:07,755 and you didn't know how to make sense of it, 164 00:09:07,755 --> 00:09:09,465 and you became fearful. 165 00:09:09,465 --> 00:09:10,633 MARC: You have to think about 166 00:09:10,633 --> 00:09:12,343 what fear do you want to work on. 167 00:09:12,343 --> 00:09:15,763 And I don't know why, but I decided 168 00:09:15,763 --> 00:09:20,643 that maybe I'm afraid of losing Tourette's. 169 00:09:20,643 --> 00:09:22,812 Six days earlier, if you would have come up to me 170 00:09:22,812 --> 00:09:23,938 and said like, "Hey, you know, 171 00:09:23,938 --> 00:09:25,189 you might be afraid of losing Tourette's," 172 00:09:25,189 --> 00:09:27,483 I literally would've punched you or said, "Fuck you." 173 00:09:28,734 --> 00:09:30,236 But we explored the fear, 174 00:09:30,236 --> 00:09:33,823 and it wasn't that I was afraid of losing Tourette's, 175 00:09:33,823 --> 00:09:36,659 I was just afraid of not being special anymore. 176 00:09:38,286 --> 00:09:40,121 I just had such a fundamental shift of-- 177 00:09:40,121 --> 00:09:43,666 I'm not seeing myself as a victim to this thing. 178 00:09:45,084 --> 00:09:49,547 What if you could figure out what's causing the itch? 179 00:09:51,215 --> 00:09:53,342 Which is a completely different paradigm. 180 00:09:53,342 --> 00:09:56,470 The more that you can really get to the root of that, 181 00:09:56,470 --> 00:10:00,141 what I found was, my itch started to go down. 182 00:10:02,643 --> 00:10:05,730 I remember being in a train station... 183 00:10:05,730 --> 00:10:09,483 and I walk into the middle and I just stood there. 184 00:10:11,902 --> 00:10:15,114 I literally was like everyone else. 185 00:10:15,114 --> 00:10:17,325 And I had never had that in my entire life. 186 00:10:20,202 --> 00:10:23,414 HOST: Now is the moment where we introduce 187 00:10:23,414 --> 00:10:24,540 an amazing man. 188 00:10:24,540 --> 00:10:30,254 He has inspired thousands of people. Marc Elliot! 189 00:10:30,254 --> 00:10:33,424 -(AUDIENCE CHEERING, APPLAUDING) - Whoo! 190 00:10:34,759 --> 00:10:35,885 Thank you! 191 00:10:35,885 --> 00:10:37,720 Living with Tourette syndrome, 192 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,765 I really had the chance to see what is it like 193 00:10:40,765 --> 00:10:44,602 to be so different than everyone else. 194 00:10:44,602 --> 00:10:48,064 But in 2010, I met an American scientist 195 00:10:48,064 --> 00:10:50,775 and philosopher, his name is Keith Raniere, 196 00:10:50,775 --> 00:10:52,651 and he actually created the courses 197 00:10:52,651 --> 00:10:54,070 that provided the tools 198 00:10:54,070 --> 00:10:56,155 that helped me beat my Tourette's. 199 00:10:56,155 --> 00:10:58,949 (AUDIENCE CHEERING, APPLAUDING) 200 00:10:58,949 --> 00:11:00,701 MARC: Nothing like this has ever been done 201 00:11:00,701 --> 00:11:02,453 in history that I know of. 202 00:11:03,704 --> 00:11:05,831 And now I've been like this, 203 00:11:05,831 --> 00:11:09,210 um, for about the last four years. 204 00:11:10,294 --> 00:11:13,047 You know, that's why I'm-- I'm so grateful 205 00:11:14,131 --> 00:11:16,092 to Keith and to Nancy and to NXIVM. 206 00:11:16,092 --> 00:11:18,344 It's not because I'm-- I'm some-- 207 00:11:18,344 --> 00:11:23,516 I had this indoctrination. I've had a horrible 20 years. 208 00:11:24,141 --> 00:11:25,226 You know, what do you-- 209 00:11:25,226 --> 00:11:26,977 How do you feel towards the person 210 00:11:26,977 --> 00:11:30,356 that literally gave you an opportunity and the tools 211 00:11:30,356 --> 00:11:34,318 to craft an existence that you couldn't even dream of? 212 00:11:35,319 --> 00:11:38,447 ♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 213 00:11:40,199 --> 00:11:42,576 {\an8}(METAL CLATTERING) 214 00:11:50,251 --> 00:11:51,502 (CLATTERS, BEEPS) 215 00:11:51,502 --> 00:11:53,671 NANCY: When I did the Tourette's work, 216 00:11:53,671 --> 00:11:57,216 I think I may have learned more than anything else I did. 217 00:11:59,051 --> 00:12:00,970 So, this is Marc, and Marc's volunteered 218 00:12:00,970 --> 00:12:03,514 to demonstrate anger for us today. 219 00:12:03,514 --> 00:12:05,891 So this is what I'm going to ask you to do. 220 00:12:05,891 --> 00:12:09,145 NANCY: When Marc first came to ESP, 221 00:12:09,145 --> 00:12:10,980 I studied him the whole week. 222 00:12:13,274 --> 00:12:14,608 {\an8}(CHUCKLES) 223 00:12:14,608 --> 00:12:16,902 He would think in his mind, 224 00:12:16,902 --> 00:12:18,779 "What is the worst possible thing 225 00:12:18,779 --> 00:12:20,281 that I could say?" 226 00:12:20,281 --> 00:12:22,032 So, like, when he first met me, 227 00:12:22,032 --> 00:12:27,037 he said, "Bitch! Bitch! Bitch! Bitch! Bitch!" (LAUGHS) 228 00:12:27,037 --> 00:12:31,167 And when we first met Clare Bronfman, he said, 229 00:12:31,167 --> 00:12:36,005 "Rich! Rich! Rich! Rich! Rich!" (LAUGHS) 230 00:12:36,005 --> 00:12:42,219 Clare paid for the research, but it was Marc's idea 231 00:12:42,219 --> 00:12:44,513 to work with other Tourette's people. 232 00:12:44,513 --> 00:12:46,807 - NANCY: Hello. -(STUTTERS) Hi. 233 00:12:46,807 --> 00:12:48,684 NANCY: Hi, I'm Nancy. I'm Nancy. 234 00:12:48,684 --> 00:12:50,269 - Hey. - It's nice to meet you. 235 00:12:50,269 --> 00:12:52,646 NANCY: When I started working with people who had Tourette's, 236 00:12:52,646 --> 00:12:55,816 I never researched much about Tourette's. 237 00:12:55,816 --> 00:12:58,903 And the reason was I didn't want to prejudice myself. 238 00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:02,448 I had one 20-minute conversation with Keith 239 00:13:02,448 --> 00:13:04,867 about how I was gonna work with people. 240 00:13:04,867 --> 00:13:07,411 And he said to me, "You use every tool 241 00:13:07,411 --> 00:13:09,121 you have ever learned. 242 00:13:09,121 --> 00:13:10,498 Don't hold back." 243 00:13:12,208 --> 00:13:15,294 Do you have any concerns about today? 244 00:13:16,086 --> 00:13:17,087 {\an8}Concerns? 245 00:13:17,087 --> 00:13:19,507 {\an8}Um... Well, I mean, the other day I was thinking 246 00:13:19,507 --> 00:13:22,092 {\an8}that it, you know, might not work. 247 00:13:22,092 --> 00:13:24,011 {\an8}- Is that your concern? - Yeah. 248 00:13:24,011 --> 00:13:25,513 {\an8}- So-- - So you have... 249 00:13:27,473 --> 00:13:29,141 {\an8}(SNIFFLES) So... 250 00:13:30,434 --> 00:13:31,977 {\an8}I wanna see what the outcome is. 251 00:13:31,977 --> 00:13:35,356 {\an8}- Uh, I can try my hardest. - The whole part of outcomes is 252 00:13:35,356 --> 00:13:36,941 {\an8}you can't figure out what they are 253 00:13:36,941 --> 00:13:38,859 {\an8}until you go through the process, right? 254 00:13:38,859 --> 00:13:40,027 {\an8}Right, yeah. 255 00:13:40,027 --> 00:13:41,403 {\an8}Okay, so you were thinking it might not work... 256 00:13:41,403 --> 00:13:43,822 {\an8}NANCY: I work with a number of different things, 257 00:13:43,822 --> 00:13:45,282 {\an8}but mainly beliefs. 258 00:13:46,450 --> 00:13:49,995 So I give them a belief in the mind-body connection 259 00:13:49,995 --> 00:13:51,789 and what is actually possible. 260 00:13:52,915 --> 00:13:55,668 {\an8}I'm gonna do something, uh... 261 00:13:55,668 --> 00:13:58,128 {\an8}-(GRUNTS) - ...like an exploration with you. 262 00:13:58,128 --> 00:14:00,172 {\an8}It's called an exploration of meaning. 263 00:14:00,172 --> 00:14:03,551 {\an8}So I'm going to ask you what you mean by certain things 264 00:14:03,551 --> 00:14:04,760 {\an8}because a lot of times, 265 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,388 {\an8}if there's an inconsistency in meaning, 266 00:14:07,388 --> 00:14:09,431 {\an8}- it causes... -(SNIFFS) 267 00:14:09,431 --> 00:14:12,601 {\an8}...the issues that limit us. 268 00:14:12,601 --> 00:14:14,103 {\an8}So what I'm gonna do is try to help... 269 00:14:14,103 --> 00:14:18,023 {\an8}NANCY: In ESP, the thing that we did very well, 270 00:14:18,023 --> 00:14:21,944 was we could take a stimulus and a response 271 00:14:21,944 --> 00:14:23,862 and disconnect them. 272 00:14:23,862 --> 00:14:28,284 Like, for instance, have you ever had an experience 273 00:14:28,284 --> 00:14:32,997 of hearing a tone in your mother's voice 274 00:14:32,997 --> 00:14:36,166 and knowing that you were in trouble? 275 00:14:36,166 --> 00:14:40,045 And then whenever you hear that tone in someone's voice, 276 00:14:40,921 --> 00:14:42,172 you go into a panic. 277 00:14:43,132 --> 00:14:46,135 If you can disconnect the trigger, 278 00:14:46,135 --> 00:14:47,886 you know, to your issue, 279 00:14:47,886 --> 00:14:49,388 then you would not do it anymore, 280 00:14:49,388 --> 00:14:51,515 and then you would forget you ever did it. 281 00:14:51,515 --> 00:14:53,475 So the way that I handled Tourette's was, 282 00:14:53,475 --> 00:14:57,146 I found out what-- what the impulse was 283 00:14:57,146 --> 00:15:00,024 and then I would disconnect the stimulus and responses 284 00:15:00,024 --> 00:15:03,694 until, you know, there was control. 285 00:15:03,694 --> 00:15:05,613 When you say, "It feels like I need to blink," 286 00:15:05,613 --> 00:15:07,197 - what do you mean? - When... 287 00:15:09,783 --> 00:15:11,285 when my eyes get dry, and I blink, 288 00:15:11,285 --> 00:15:13,078 it's not like a different feeling than that. 289 00:15:13,078 --> 00:15:16,123 It's not? But then sometimes you really... 290 00:15:16,123 --> 00:15:17,333 STUDY PARTICIPANT: Yeah. 291 00:15:17,333 --> 00:15:19,793 NANCY: Yeah. How do you know when to do that? 292 00:15:24,757 --> 00:15:27,092 Now, you said you had this feeling here. 293 00:15:27,092 --> 00:15:28,552 How does it feel now? 294 00:15:29,678 --> 00:15:34,016 It's... I can feel it, but it's not as strong. 295 00:15:35,768 --> 00:15:39,813 There isn't the urge to tic-- There is, but... 296 00:15:41,607 --> 00:15:42,983 I can control it. 297 00:15:44,735 --> 00:15:46,487 Huh! I didn't even notice that. 298 00:15:47,905 --> 00:15:50,324 I still feel the urges but... 299 00:15:50,324 --> 00:15:53,535 - NANCY: Less so? - Very much less. 300 00:15:53,535 --> 00:15:54,828 We can do more work. 301 00:15:54,828 --> 00:15:57,456 But that was very good for today. 302 00:15:57,456 --> 00:15:58,791 - That's incredible. -(NANCY LAUGHING) 303 00:15:58,791 --> 00:16:03,087 I really did not think that was going to work at all. 304 00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:06,173 MARC: We have these amazing results. 305 00:16:07,174 --> 00:16:08,842 But there's still this feeling of, 306 00:16:08,842 --> 00:16:10,969 well, you guys don't have any credentials. 307 00:16:10,969 --> 00:16:13,889 When conventional solutions don't work, 308 00:16:13,889 --> 00:16:16,809 maybe the unconventional way of thinking does. 309 00:16:16,809 --> 00:16:19,061 It is certainly not double-blind tested. 310 00:16:19,061 --> 00:16:21,063 But the truth of the matter is, 311 00:16:21,063 --> 00:16:23,649 sometimes you want to go to something that's unique. 312 00:16:25,818 --> 00:16:28,612 It was so tangible, it was so palpable, 313 00:16:28,612 --> 00:16:29,697 these results. 314 00:16:29,697 --> 00:16:32,116 It's not a question of, "Can we help people?" 315 00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:35,244 It's literally, we know that when we give the green light 316 00:16:35,244 --> 00:16:38,330 to someone, you no longer will be dealing with Tourette's. 317 00:16:43,335 --> 00:16:44,420 (EXHALES) 318 00:16:44,420 --> 00:16:46,588 I'm just trying to think if we can just cut for this, 319 00:16:46,588 --> 00:16:47,798 I don't know if it's best if-- 320 00:16:47,798 --> 00:16:51,385 I mean, I can talk-- I mean, Isabella is... um... 321 00:16:51,385 --> 00:16:53,262 I just think that, you know, 322 00:16:53,262 --> 00:16:55,055 the people that... 323 00:16:55,055 --> 00:16:58,225 uh, that we helped with Tourette syndrome, 324 00:16:59,268 --> 00:17:00,519 you know, if they... 325 00:17:03,313 --> 00:17:05,816 you know, if they want to speak publicly about, you know, 326 00:17:05,816 --> 00:17:09,111 their experience with us, you know, that's up to them. 327 00:17:10,988 --> 00:17:16,243 -(TRAIN SQUEALING) - ♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 328 00:17:16,243 --> 00:17:17,786 ISABELLA CONSTANTINO: Some people thought 329 00:17:17,786 --> 00:17:20,622 the study would be the saving grace of the company 330 00:17:20,622 --> 00:17:25,294 because it showed this amazing transformation. 331 00:17:25,294 --> 00:17:30,132 Everyone in NXIVM is having this much of an extreme change, 332 00:17:30,132 --> 00:17:32,217 but you can't see it physically. 333 00:17:33,385 --> 00:17:35,637 And I think this made it much more obvious 334 00:17:35,637 --> 00:17:38,140 that they had profound tools. 335 00:17:42,060 --> 00:17:43,353 {\an8}-(INDISTINCT CHATTER) - Oh! 336 00:17:43,353 --> 00:17:46,273 {\an8}My arms are just like this every time. 337 00:17:46,273 --> 00:17:49,735 {\an8}Like I hit myself and I have to punch myself. 338 00:17:50,778 --> 00:17:52,529 ISABELLA: Since I was six or seven. 339 00:17:52,529 --> 00:17:54,490 It was just very hard with Tourette's. 340 00:17:55,115 --> 00:17:56,408 (SCREAMS) 341 00:17:56,408 --> 00:17:59,828 ISABELLA: Partly because there was a lot of OCD involved too. 342 00:17:59,828 --> 00:18:01,705 YOUNG ISABELLA: Well, my OCD makes me 343 00:18:01,705 --> 00:18:04,416 toss a plate up and down, even with food on it. (CHUCKLES) 344 00:18:04,416 --> 00:18:06,710 ISABELLA: Any urge you could imagine. 345 00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:08,128 Yelling, screaming, 346 00:18:08,128 --> 00:18:10,172 hitting myself, hitting other things. 347 00:18:10,172 --> 00:18:12,090 (MUTTERS) 348 00:18:12,090 --> 00:18:15,511 {\an8}She has some of the worst tics I've ever seen. 349 00:18:17,596 --> 00:18:19,973 If there's one thing that I could give kids 350 00:18:19,973 --> 00:18:22,100 who have tics, it would be resilience. 351 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:23,352 You know what that means? 352 00:18:23,352 --> 00:18:26,063 The ability to say, "Yeah, you know, my tics are tough, 353 00:18:26,063 --> 00:18:28,023 but I'm not going to let them stop me." 354 00:18:28,023 --> 00:18:29,149 I have that. 355 00:18:29,149 --> 00:18:32,444 You do have that, I could tell that. (CHUCKLES) 356 00:18:32,444 --> 00:18:36,198 ISABELLA: Growing up in general, I think I had a lot of hope. 357 00:18:36,198 --> 00:18:38,534 Honestly, I assumed that I would wake up one day 358 00:18:38,534 --> 00:18:39,743 and it would just be gone. 359 00:18:39,743 --> 00:18:41,829 - You love me. - MERRY CONSTANTINO: Thank you. 360 00:18:41,829 --> 00:18:44,915 - You really love me. -(MERRY CHUCKLES) 361 00:18:44,915 --> 00:18:46,375 Thank you so much... 362 00:18:49,086 --> 00:18:51,421 ISABELLA: Towards my last year of college, 363 00:18:51,421 --> 00:18:53,173 it started to get very bad again. 364 00:18:54,132 --> 00:18:56,927 (GRUNTS) 365 00:18:56,927 --> 00:19:01,098 At that point, I think we would have done anything. 366 00:19:02,808 --> 00:19:04,184 - NANCY: Hi. - MERRY: Hi, Nancy. 367 00:19:04,184 --> 00:19:05,477 - NANCY: Hi, Nancy. - ISABELLA: Isabella. Nice to meet you. 368 00:19:05,477 --> 00:19:06,854 NANCY: Nice to meet you. 369 00:19:06,854 --> 00:19:09,398 - Do you have any fear? -(CHUCKLES) 370 00:19:09,398 --> 00:19:10,941 - Not getting rid of it-- - About losing it? 371 00:19:10,941 --> 00:19:13,527 - No. That's all I ever wanted. - No? Okay. 372 00:19:13,527 --> 00:19:14,695 Marc is the first person... 373 00:19:14,695 --> 00:19:16,446 ISABELLA: Nancy talked with me and my mom, 374 00:19:16,446 --> 00:19:20,367 and then went downstairs and we did our first EM. 375 00:19:20,367 --> 00:19:21,660 (INHALES) 376 00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:25,706 There's so much going on that I can't do things 377 00:19:25,706 --> 00:19:27,791 and tic at the same time. So when I can, 378 00:19:27,791 --> 00:19:29,710 I try to finish the tics, and I sometimes, 379 00:19:29,710 --> 00:19:33,714 I try to tic and do the things I need to for this job 380 00:19:33,714 --> 00:19:35,382 at the same time, but it doesn't work. 381 00:19:35,382 --> 00:19:38,677 So I'll spend hours trying to finish one tic 382 00:19:38,677 --> 00:19:41,054 that I started three hours before. 383 00:19:41,054 --> 00:19:42,389 You have to finish the tic. 384 00:19:42,389 --> 00:19:44,683 Yeah, they don't just happen for me... 385 00:19:44,683 --> 00:19:46,977 ISABELLA: It was about day three, 386 00:19:46,977 --> 00:19:49,771 I had the initial perceptual shift. 387 00:19:49,771 --> 00:19:52,858 And we looked back to the first time I remember, 388 00:19:52,858 --> 00:19:54,109 like, really ticcing. 389 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:59,114 I was in third grade, and I had to clear my throat. 390 00:19:59,865 --> 00:20:00,908 So I did. 391 00:20:00,908 --> 00:20:01,909 (YOUNG ISABELLA CLEARS THROAT) 392 00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:03,243 Then I kept having to clear it. 393 00:20:03,243 --> 00:20:05,412 (YOUNG ISABELLA CLEARING THROAT) 394 00:20:05,412 --> 00:20:07,164 ISABELLA: The awareness, the shift was that... 395 00:20:07,164 --> 00:20:08,248 (ISABELLA CLEARING THROAT) 396 00:20:08,248 --> 00:20:10,208 ..."What if I had that feeling 397 00:20:10,208 --> 00:20:12,628 and I chose to respond that way?" 398 00:20:12,628 --> 00:20:14,880 Whereas someone else may have had that feeling, 399 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,883 said, "Oh, that's a feeling." And went about their day. 400 00:20:17,883 --> 00:20:19,760 (ISABELLA CLEARING THROAT) 401 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,095 What if bodies are uncomfortable? 402 00:20:22,095 --> 00:20:23,639 And that's what I did. 403 00:20:23,639 --> 00:20:26,642 But what if I didn't have to, though? 404 00:20:26,642 --> 00:20:29,311 It made Tourette's a... 405 00:20:33,023 --> 00:20:34,066 a choice. 406 00:20:35,525 --> 00:20:37,402 It just-- It had never occurred to me. 407 00:20:37,402 --> 00:20:39,780 It wasn't something that I ever realized... 408 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,449 could have been... 409 00:20:44,534 --> 00:20:48,038 true. It's just, like, it changed everything. 410 00:20:48,038 --> 00:20:52,000 I always felt that... (CLEARS THROAT) 411 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,253 I always felt that my body betrayed me when I was seven 412 00:20:55,253 --> 00:20:57,339 {\an8}and I never forgave it. 413 00:20:57,339 --> 00:20:59,800 {\an8}But I realized it might have been my mind. 414 00:21:00,467 --> 00:21:03,011 {\an8}I feel more in charge. 415 00:21:03,011 --> 00:21:04,972 {\an8}And I still am feeling the urges, 416 00:21:04,972 --> 00:21:07,641 {\an8}but they seem to be less intense. 417 00:21:07,641 --> 00:21:10,185 {\an8}Yeah, and I talked with my dad last night for like 20 minutes. 418 00:21:10,185 --> 00:21:12,270 {\an8}He called my mom, he said, "It was really great 419 00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:14,231 {\an8}having such a fluid conversation with her. 420 00:21:14,231 --> 00:21:16,483 {\an8}No freezing, no stopping in the talking, 421 00:21:16,483 --> 00:21:19,027 {\an8}no... none of that." (CHUCKLES) 422 00:21:19,027 --> 00:21:22,364 {\an8}On a scale of one to ten, my OCD was definitely... 423 00:21:23,490 --> 00:21:24,908 {\an8}ten. 424 00:21:24,908 --> 00:21:28,286 {\an8}Or 12. Not 11. Even numbers. (LAUGHS) 425 00:21:28,286 --> 00:21:30,998 {\an8}Sorry. (LAUGHS) And now... 426 00:21:31,915 --> 00:21:34,167 {\an8}It's a, uh, maybe a one or two. 427 00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:36,336 {\an8}A lot better. 428 00:21:37,504 --> 00:21:38,714 {\an8}Probably a one. 429 00:21:38,714 --> 00:21:42,009 {\an8}'Cause, you know, it doesn't need to be even. (CHUCKLES) 430 00:21:42,009 --> 00:21:44,428 {\an8}Once in a while, I'll do another tic. 431 00:21:44,428 --> 00:21:49,141 {\an8}but not consistently enough to say that I do those tics. 432 00:21:49,141 --> 00:21:51,727 {\an8}And I don't think I would feel comfortable 433 00:21:51,727 --> 00:21:55,355 {\an8}telling anyone from now on that I have Tourette's. 434 00:21:56,314 --> 00:21:59,693 {\an8}♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 435 00:22:03,530 --> 00:22:04,990 ISABELLA: I was super grateful to Nancy. 436 00:22:04,990 --> 00:22:06,742 I was so happy. 437 00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:09,244 Like, it changed my life. It did. 438 00:22:10,787 --> 00:22:13,290 Like, I'm always going to be so grateful for that. 439 00:22:16,668 --> 00:22:19,087 I mean, that has nothing to do with why I left. 440 00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:29,765 REPORTER 3: A secret group stirring up controversy 441 00:22:29,765 --> 00:22:31,183 here in the Capitol Region. 442 00:22:31,183 --> 00:22:33,435 REPORTER 4: The report out today says that some female members 443 00:22:33,435 --> 00:22:36,313 have been branded with the founder's initials. 444 00:22:51,745 --> 00:22:52,829 (EXHALES) 445 00:22:55,165 --> 00:22:57,209 (PANTS) 446 00:22:57,209 --> 00:22:59,336 (FOOTSTEPS RECEDING) 447 00:23:04,049 --> 00:23:05,092 (KEYS JINGLING) 448 00:23:12,849 --> 00:23:16,311 ISABELLA: There are things going on that are much more 449 00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:18,814 dangerous than I imagined. 450 00:23:20,690 --> 00:23:23,276 {\an8}Like I knew some shady things were going on, 451 00:23:23,276 --> 00:23:25,112 but I also had justified it. 452 00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:34,204 {\an8}-(CARS HONKING) -(POLICE SIREN WAILING) 453 00:23:34,204 --> 00:23:36,081 NANCY: (OVER VOICEMAIL) Hey, Isabella, it's me, um, 454 00:23:36,081 --> 00:23:38,959 just checking in with you. I wanted to see if you're okay, 455 00:23:38,959 --> 00:23:40,335 and when you're coming back? 456 00:23:40,335 --> 00:23:42,462 ISABELLA: Okay, so they actually do sound worried. 457 00:23:42,921 --> 00:23:43,839 Fuck! 458 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:45,215 NANCY: (OVER VOICEMAIL) Hey, Isabella, 459 00:23:45,215 --> 00:23:46,341 we haven't heard from you, 460 00:23:46,341 --> 00:23:48,176 and Justin and Marc were looking for you. 461 00:23:48,176 --> 00:23:50,303 So, getting a little worried about you. 462 00:23:50,303 --> 00:23:51,805 And I didn't-- I didn't respond, 463 00:23:51,805 --> 00:23:53,557 and someone else texted me something. 464 00:23:53,557 --> 00:23:54,850 "Hey, can you chat?" 465 00:23:57,519 --> 00:24:00,814 (VIDEO CALL RINGING) 466 00:24:00,814 --> 00:24:03,442 -(CALL CONNECTS) - Hi, I'm sorry. 467 00:24:03,442 --> 00:24:04,943 It's been a kind of a crazy week. 468 00:24:04,943 --> 00:24:06,319 {\an8}MARC: (OVER VIDEO CALL) Sounds like. 469 00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:09,114 {\an8}I heard you ran out in the middle of the night. 470 00:24:09,114 --> 00:24:13,785 {\an8}I got some information that I didn't think was good. 471 00:24:15,745 --> 00:24:16,746 I didn't think-- 472 00:24:18,081 --> 00:24:19,708 I'm just evaluating some things, 473 00:24:19,708 --> 00:24:23,378 and I didn't think Albany was the best place to do it. 474 00:24:23,378 --> 00:24:25,380 MARC: Isabella, who do you think-- what do you-- 475 00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:27,507 Who do you think I am? What do you think I do? 476 00:24:27,507 --> 00:24:30,635 I-- I love you, Marc, I love you so much. 477 00:24:30,635 --> 00:24:32,262 It has nothing to do with-- 478 00:24:32,262 --> 00:24:34,764 MARC: It has everything to do with it, darling. 479 00:24:34,764 --> 00:24:36,224 (ISABELLA CHUCKLES) 480 00:24:36,224 --> 00:24:38,602 MARC: I don't know what-- What happened? 481 00:24:39,477 --> 00:24:40,562 I'm so sad. 482 00:24:40,562 --> 00:24:43,190 No, I'm sad, too. I just-- I got information... 483 00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:44,691 MARC: I don't know what you... 484 00:24:44,691 --> 00:24:49,362 Some women decided to do a brand as a way to fucking bond. 485 00:24:49,362 --> 00:24:50,697 No, no, no, no, no. 486 00:24:50,697 --> 00:24:52,866 - Women were told... - MARC: Do you think-- 487 00:24:52,866 --> 00:24:55,035 ...that they were going to get a tattoo, 488 00:24:55,035 --> 00:24:57,287 and it was not an informed... 489 00:24:58,455 --> 00:25:00,665 MARC: Okay, what if that's not true? 490 00:25:01,291 --> 00:25:02,375 What if it is? 491 00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:06,296 MARC: If that was true, Isabella, 492 00:25:06,963 --> 00:25:09,758 that's called illegal. 493 00:25:10,717 --> 00:25:13,595 That's called assault. 494 00:25:13,595 --> 00:25:14,763 Yeah, I know. 495 00:25:14,763 --> 00:25:16,473 That's why I don't think it's good. 496 00:25:16,473 --> 00:25:21,770 That's why I'm choosing to not be in Albany right now. 497 00:25:21,770 --> 00:25:24,814 MARC: I don't think you understand what you're doing. 498 00:25:24,814 --> 00:25:25,982 What am I doing? 499 00:25:27,317 --> 00:25:28,526 MARC: Believing people... 500 00:25:29,903 --> 00:25:32,864 that I don't think are being very honest with you. 501 00:25:32,864 --> 00:25:34,241 And there's nothing I can do. 502 00:25:34,241 --> 00:25:36,201 Other than that I just feel really sad. 503 00:25:36,952 --> 00:25:38,536 Marc, I'm really sad. 504 00:25:38,536 --> 00:25:39,871 (CELLPHONE VIBRATES) 505 00:25:39,871 --> 00:25:42,582 But it might be also helpful to look at who you're believing 506 00:25:42,582 --> 00:25:44,459 that may not be honest with you. 507 00:25:44,459 --> 00:25:46,002 MARC: You know, you have to decide 508 00:25:46,002 --> 00:25:47,921 who you want to trust. 509 00:25:47,921 --> 00:25:50,882 Nancy and myself, we were able to do things for you 510 00:25:50,882 --> 00:25:53,969 that in your entire life nobody could help you with. 511 00:25:53,969 --> 00:25:57,138 Now, you're just sitting there saying that you can't trust me. 512 00:25:57,138 --> 00:25:59,474 Marc, I'm not saying that I can't trust you. 513 00:25:59,474 --> 00:26:02,352 MARC: Yes, you are. You're trusting people 514 00:26:02,352 --> 00:26:05,313 who are doing destructive things. 515 00:26:05,313 --> 00:26:08,108 You realize this might affect the Tourette's? 516 00:26:08,108 --> 00:26:10,443 My Tourette's? Or yours or the study? 517 00:26:11,695 --> 00:26:13,446 MARC: Helping people with Tourette. 518 00:26:14,823 --> 00:26:15,824 Well... 519 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,451 MARC: There's gonna be a day 520 00:26:18,451 --> 00:26:20,996 when you realize this stuff isn't true, Isabella. 521 00:26:22,914 --> 00:26:25,292 Marc, I pray to God, I wish it wasn't true. 522 00:26:25,292 --> 00:26:26,459 I really do. 523 00:26:27,919 --> 00:26:30,171 MARC: I'm telling you right now, Isabella. 524 00:26:31,589 --> 00:26:33,174 It's not true. 525 00:26:34,634 --> 00:26:37,345 I am going to keep helping people get over Tourette's. 526 00:26:37,345 --> 00:26:40,140 You know we have the best results in the world. 527 00:26:41,433 --> 00:26:44,269 I'm gonna hop off, and it's not a personal offence, 528 00:26:44,269 --> 00:26:46,313 like, I don't mean it to be that way. 529 00:26:46,313 --> 00:26:48,273 I care a lot about everyone. 530 00:26:48,273 --> 00:26:50,317 It has nothing to do with the people. 531 00:26:50,317 --> 00:26:51,651 It's just-- It's not-- 532 00:26:51,651 --> 00:26:54,029 Things haven't been handled well, I don't think. 533 00:26:54,029 --> 00:26:55,739 - MARC: Okay, I'll see you. - Bye, Marc. 534 00:26:55,739 --> 00:26:58,116 - MARC: Be well, Isabella. - Love you. 535 00:26:58,116 --> 00:26:59,868 -(BUTTON CLICKS) -(CALL DISCONNECTS) 536 00:26:59,868 --> 00:27:02,495 (CHUCKLES, SIGHS) 537 00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:08,960 (DOORBELL RINGING) 538 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,797 -(ISABELLA GASPS, EXCLAIMS) -(VASCO CHEERS) 539 00:27:12,797 --> 00:27:15,050 {\an8}- ISABELLA: What? - Mm. 540 00:27:18,219 --> 00:27:19,763 {\an8}Mm, it's so good to see you. 541 00:27:20,847 --> 00:27:22,140 I brought wine and Oreos. 542 00:27:22,140 --> 00:27:23,892 ISABELLA: You're the best (LAUGHS) 543 00:27:23,892 --> 00:27:25,602 (VASCO LAUGHS) 544 00:27:25,602 --> 00:27:30,190 I've been getting calls and like, Marc can intellect. 545 00:27:30,190 --> 00:27:33,109 Like, you know, people can intellect things. 546 00:27:33,109 --> 00:27:35,528 - I've known Marc since 2004. - ISABELLA: Yeah. 547 00:27:35,528 --> 00:27:37,238 I knew him when he had full-blown Tourette's. 548 00:27:37,238 --> 00:27:39,949 Before I resigned, I was talking to Marc, and I said, "Okay, 549 00:27:39,949 --> 00:27:42,410 under what circumstances would you leave ESP? 550 00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:45,872 Well, what if Keith was convicted of... 551 00:27:47,123 --> 00:27:48,792 embezzling money?" 552 00:27:48,792 --> 00:27:51,169 And he said, "Let the courts decide that." 553 00:27:51,711 --> 00:27:53,046 I was like, "Okay, 554 00:27:53,046 --> 00:27:56,174 what if he was found guilty of rape?" 555 00:27:57,842 --> 00:28:00,595 And he said, "I'm curing... 556 00:28:02,013 --> 00:28:03,014 Tourette's. 557 00:28:04,015 --> 00:28:06,393 I'm changing people's lives. 558 00:28:08,311 --> 00:28:09,854 I will never leave ESP." 559 00:28:10,855 --> 00:28:13,858 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 560 00:28:18,655 --> 00:28:21,574 MARC: I just think Keith's a pioneer. 561 00:28:21,574 --> 00:28:23,743 I think he has an incredible mind 562 00:28:23,743 --> 00:28:26,538 and capacity to help people. 563 00:28:28,331 --> 00:28:30,417 A lot of times people will say, "Well, Marc, you know, 564 00:28:30,417 --> 00:28:31,709 why don't you just go break off, 565 00:28:31,709 --> 00:28:33,294 and why don't you just go do your own thing, 566 00:28:33,294 --> 00:28:35,797 and why don't you just go help other people with Tourette's?" 567 00:28:35,797 --> 00:28:37,507 And it's just not that simple. 568 00:28:37,507 --> 00:28:42,679 Because of now how everything is equated to being a sex cult, 569 00:28:42,679 --> 00:28:45,765 anything I do in the world moving forward, 570 00:28:45,765 --> 00:28:47,142 they're going to attack me. 571 00:28:47,142 --> 00:28:51,104 Because I'm unwilling to disavow my friend, Keith Raniere. 572 00:28:51,104 --> 00:28:53,148 I will always be a hated figure. 573 00:29:00,989 --> 00:29:02,323 {\an8}- MARC: Hey! - Hi, how's it going? 574 00:29:02,323 --> 00:29:05,535 {\an8}I believe that that the only way that I foresee at the moment 575 00:29:05,535 --> 00:29:07,996 to be able to help people Tourette's in the future, 576 00:29:07,996 --> 00:29:10,623 is I have to expose this injustice. 577 00:29:10,623 --> 00:29:13,084 AUTOMATED VOICE 1: An inmate at a federal prison. 578 00:29:13,084 --> 00:29:14,419 AUTOMATED VOICE 2: Raniere. 579 00:29:14,419 --> 00:29:16,629 -(PHONE BEEPS) - MARC: Hey, Keith. 580 00:29:18,548 --> 00:29:20,258 We're going to do everything we can. 581 00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:24,471 -(BIRDS CHIRPING) -(DOGS BARKING IN DISTANCE) 582 00:29:26,973 --> 00:29:29,893 {\an8}(VIDEO CALL RINGING) 583 00:29:29,893 --> 00:29:31,686 {\an8}-(CALL CONNECTS) - NANCY: Hello. 584 00:29:31,686 --> 00:29:33,313 DIANE BENSCOTER: (OVER VIDEO CALL) How are you? 585 00:29:33,313 --> 00:29:34,898 Good, how are you? I'm Nancy. 586 00:29:34,898 --> 00:29:37,025 DIANE: Hi, Nancy. Pleasure to meet you. 587 00:29:37,025 --> 00:29:40,737 {\an8}NANCY: I'm really happy that, um... that I'm... 588 00:29:40,737 --> 00:29:43,531 having an opportunity to speak to you. 589 00:29:43,531 --> 00:29:47,035 My cat is-- Come here, Mouse. Come here. 590 00:29:47,035 --> 00:29:48,161 Your cat's name is Mouse? 591 00:29:48,161 --> 00:29:49,746 NANCY: Yes, wait. You have to see him. 592 00:29:51,915 --> 00:29:53,416 (LAUGHS) 593 00:29:53,416 --> 00:29:56,377 - Hairless cat. - Yes, he's really sweet. 594 00:29:56,377 --> 00:29:57,712 (MOUSE PURRS) 595 00:29:57,712 --> 00:30:00,965 I think he's trying to be here with me during-- during this. 596 00:30:00,965 --> 00:30:03,343 DIANE: Have you had any support at all? 597 00:30:03,343 --> 00:30:06,346 No, nothing, no professional support. 598 00:30:06,346 --> 00:30:09,599 What's your perception right now of what you went through? 599 00:30:10,225 --> 00:30:12,352 Um. Keith was... 600 00:30:12,352 --> 00:30:14,979 Well, in the beginning, he was kind. 601 00:30:14,979 --> 00:30:19,108 But he got more and more and more controlling 602 00:30:19,108 --> 00:30:20,235 as time went on. 603 00:30:20,235 --> 00:30:23,488 But I don't think I ever thought about leaving. 604 00:30:23,488 --> 00:30:25,907 I-- I just thought... 605 00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:29,160 he was difficult. 606 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,704 I think it's important for people to, 607 00:30:31,704 --> 00:30:34,541 when they look back and deconstruct their-- 608 00:30:34,541 --> 00:30:36,292 this experience, 609 00:30:36,292 --> 00:30:39,879 if you can think of like your life in three identities. 610 00:30:40,672 --> 00:30:42,757 There's the identity before, 611 00:30:42,757 --> 00:30:45,677 where there was something lacking in your life. 612 00:30:45,677 --> 00:30:50,181 So then identity number two is you get almost intoxicated 613 00:30:50,181 --> 00:30:53,685 with this feeling, like, "I found this great thing," 614 00:30:53,685 --> 00:30:55,770 and you get the whole camaraderie 615 00:30:55,770 --> 00:30:56,896 and the community 616 00:30:56,896 --> 00:30:58,815 and all of that and it feels really good. 617 00:30:58,815 --> 00:31:03,152 And then when that world crumbles like it has for you, 618 00:31:03,653 --> 00:31:05,405 who am I now? 619 00:31:05,405 --> 00:31:09,242 But you can get there by looking at your first identity. 620 00:31:09,242 --> 00:31:13,663 And try to get at why were you vulnerable 621 00:31:13,663 --> 00:31:15,915 to these kinds of control tactics? 622 00:31:15,915 --> 00:31:18,876 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 623 00:31:21,879 --> 00:31:26,342 (BIRDS CHIRPING) 624 00:31:26,342 --> 00:31:28,970 NANCY: When Keith left the country, 625 00:31:28,970 --> 00:31:31,014 I started waking up in the morning 626 00:31:31,014 --> 00:31:32,849 feeling peaceful. 627 00:31:35,852 --> 00:31:39,522 And I would think to myself, "What is wrong with you?" 628 00:31:39,522 --> 00:31:42,650 You have this wonderful life that he helped you create. 629 00:31:43,484 --> 00:31:45,778 Like, what is wrong with you? 630 00:31:45,778 --> 00:31:48,448 (CAMERA CREW CHATTING QUIETLY) 631 00:31:48,448 --> 00:31:49,616 (CLEARS THROAT) 632 00:31:52,035 --> 00:31:53,828 (COUGHS) Mic. 633 00:31:54,871 --> 00:31:57,874 So, I have someone who is... 634 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:00,752 in the external world, 635 00:32:00,752 --> 00:32:04,255 it would look like telling me something I already know. 636 00:32:04,255 --> 00:32:06,257 {\an8}I can-- I can-- 637 00:32:10,011 --> 00:32:11,846 {\an8}Um. In the future, it might be good 638 00:32:11,846 --> 00:32:14,182 if I'm speaking, let me speak. 639 00:32:14,182 --> 00:32:16,934 {\an8}And then-- No, no. And then say that afterwards. 640 00:32:17,810 --> 00:32:18,811 Um... 641 00:32:21,064 --> 00:32:22,899 In any situation, you can learn. 642 00:32:24,275 --> 00:32:25,652 NANCY: I was terrified of Keith. 643 00:32:25,652 --> 00:32:27,820 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 644 00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:30,365 NANCY: Whenever I was in a meeting with other people, 645 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,660 he acted like I wasn't there. 646 00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:37,997 He would correct me whenever I said anything. 647 00:32:39,415 --> 00:32:41,584 He purposely disempowered me. 648 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,630 So when he was around, I never opened my mouth. 649 00:32:49,550 --> 00:32:52,220 But I always wanted his approval. 650 00:32:56,557 --> 00:32:58,101 He got me into a... 651 00:32:59,644 --> 00:33:00,895 You know, like, a reenactment 652 00:33:00,895 --> 00:33:03,648 of trying to get approval from my mother. 653 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,698 When I was six years old, my teacher called a meeting 654 00:33:11,698 --> 00:33:15,702 and she told my mother that I was dyslexic. 655 00:33:17,036 --> 00:33:20,248 And I thought it was something I should be ashamed of. 656 00:33:23,126 --> 00:33:25,920 (SNIFFLES) 657 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,674 I didn't do well in school in my early years and... 658 00:33:31,926 --> 00:33:33,136 (SNIFFLES) 659 00:33:34,804 --> 00:33:37,807 ...my mom used to call me her "little dummy." 660 00:33:38,558 --> 00:33:41,144 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 661 00:33:41,144 --> 00:33:47,316 She used to say, "If they gave As for people loving you, 662 00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:51,904 Nancy would get an A every time. Everyone loves Nancy." 663 00:33:53,489 --> 00:33:54,657 (SNIFFLES) 664 00:33:56,367 --> 00:33:59,078 So I was always wanting to do things 665 00:33:59,078 --> 00:34:01,289 that would make her feel happy with me. 666 00:34:01,289 --> 00:34:05,376 And I grew up and I just accommodated everybody 667 00:34:06,252 --> 00:34:08,588 because I wanted approval. 668 00:34:08,588 --> 00:34:10,131 - KEITH: Keep your... - Yeah. 669 00:34:10,131 --> 00:34:11,591 - ...walkie-talkie. - Yeah, yeah. 670 00:34:11,591 --> 00:34:13,634 NANCY: And I believe that Keith knew 671 00:34:13,634 --> 00:34:14,969 that I always needed approval, 672 00:34:14,969 --> 00:34:17,805 and therefore he always withheld approval. 673 00:34:17,805 --> 00:34:19,015 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 674 00:34:19,015 --> 00:34:20,475 NANCY: And the more he withheld approval, 675 00:34:20,475 --> 00:34:22,059 the harder I worked. 676 00:34:22,059 --> 00:34:24,312 - Oh, you want me in it a little? - CAMERAPERSON: Yeah. But not-- 677 00:34:24,312 --> 00:34:25,855 But just not moving forward. Okay, I'll do this. 678 00:34:25,855 --> 00:34:27,940 CAMERAPERSON: At certain points you're directly in front of Keith. 679 00:34:27,940 --> 00:34:29,692 If I didn't behave in the way 680 00:34:29,692 --> 00:34:31,611 he wanted me to behave, 681 00:34:31,611 --> 00:34:35,072 he would tell me I was breaching my ethics 682 00:34:35,072 --> 00:34:37,241 and that I wasn't strong. 683 00:34:38,743 --> 00:34:42,163 I think that's how Keith got me to do everything 684 00:34:42,163 --> 00:34:43,706 that he got me to do. 685 00:34:43,706 --> 00:34:47,418 Constantly made me feel like nothing I did was good enough. 686 00:34:55,593 --> 00:34:59,889 {\an8}(OBJECTS CLATTERING) 687 00:34:59,889 --> 00:35:02,975 ISABELLA: I set this up after I moved back home. 688 00:35:05,228 --> 00:35:08,147 All of the paintings I did before ESP, 689 00:35:08,147 --> 00:35:13,361 I did in pure states of creativity and curiosity. 690 00:35:16,739 --> 00:35:20,368 After I worked with Nancy, I was working on these. 691 00:35:21,786 --> 00:35:24,997 I think that's around the time I stopped finishing paintings. 692 00:35:26,874 --> 00:35:29,836 I haven't really painted since 2015. 693 00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:33,840 NANCY: (OVER VIDEO) Why do we teach you states? 694 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,216 What are we teaching you? 695 00:35:35,216 --> 00:35:37,552 Yeah, that you can control anything, that you can-- 696 00:35:37,552 --> 00:35:42,056 Anytime you feel not good, that's a choice 697 00:35:42,056 --> 00:35:45,059 that you're pretending you're not in control of. 698 00:35:45,059 --> 00:35:47,144 You're pretending that you don't have a choice 699 00:35:47,144 --> 00:35:48,229 in that moment, 700 00:35:48,229 --> 00:35:50,439 or you're just enjoying being miserable. 701 00:35:51,899 --> 00:35:53,943 NANCY: When I worked with Nancy initially, 702 00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:57,196 I think I recognized choice in a different way. 703 00:35:59,448 --> 00:36:02,076 You see that you can literally do anything 704 00:36:02,076 --> 00:36:04,787 in ways that even just people every day, I think, 705 00:36:04,787 --> 00:36:07,290 don't always recognize. 706 00:36:07,290 --> 00:36:12,587 Except that it becomes basically like, how did you author this? 707 00:36:12,587 --> 00:36:13,963 How is this your fault? 708 00:36:15,631 --> 00:36:17,508 I've been doing a lot of the contortions lately, 709 00:36:17,508 --> 00:36:20,052 and it's, I think, really frustrating 710 00:36:20,052 --> 00:36:23,055 because I know I can stop... 711 00:36:24,348 --> 00:36:27,184 but it's hard. 712 00:36:27,184 --> 00:36:30,187 I was very ashamed of everything about Tourette's 713 00:36:30,187 --> 00:36:33,941 because of how they attributed it to your deficiencies 714 00:36:33,941 --> 00:36:35,985 and the things you're failing at. 715 00:36:35,985 --> 00:36:37,778 We know what we should be, 716 00:36:37,778 --> 00:36:40,865 what we want to be, the perfect us, 717 00:36:40,865 --> 00:36:45,244 versus the physiological values of how we feel. 718 00:36:45,244 --> 00:36:47,330 If you go with your body, 719 00:36:47,330 --> 00:36:50,541 you breach your ideological ethics. 720 00:36:50,541 --> 00:36:53,836 ISABELLA: I didn't want to tic because I thought that was me 721 00:36:53,836 --> 00:36:55,796 being a terrible person. 722 00:36:56,756 --> 00:36:58,966 I've been... (CLEARS THROAT QUIETLY) 723 00:36:58,966 --> 00:37:02,637 I don't know if more emotional is the right way to say it. 724 00:37:02,637 --> 00:37:05,890 It's probably from coming off of the meds. 725 00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:09,310 ISABELLA: I was being pressured to go off of meds. 726 00:37:09,310 --> 00:37:11,771 I'd been on about 40 different meds 727 00:37:11,771 --> 00:37:13,481 since the time I was ten. 728 00:37:13,481 --> 00:37:16,108 The physical withdrawal, I wouldn't wish on anyone. 729 00:37:16,108 --> 00:37:18,235 I've been having a lot of anxiety. 730 00:37:19,403 --> 00:37:22,448 I can't eat or sleep. (SNIFFLES) 731 00:37:22,448 --> 00:37:25,242 I just got off the phone with Marc. 732 00:37:25,242 --> 00:37:28,579 He said it's good that my body is doing all these things 733 00:37:28,579 --> 00:37:32,708 because I'm adj-- adjusting and changing. 734 00:37:32,708 --> 00:37:36,212 It doesn't feel good. But it probably is. 735 00:37:37,755 --> 00:37:41,175 Once I stopped ticcing, all of these other things 736 00:37:41,175 --> 00:37:42,927 started to manifest. 737 00:37:44,345 --> 00:37:46,263 My OCD got worse 738 00:37:46,263 --> 00:37:49,350 and I was struggling, like, immensely. 739 00:37:49,350 --> 00:37:53,479 I would reach out to Nancy or I would try to talk to Marc 740 00:37:53,479 --> 00:37:54,730 and everyone would say, 741 00:37:54,730 --> 00:37:56,649 "But why are you choosing to do this?" 742 00:37:56,649 --> 00:37:58,484 ♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 743 00:37:58,484 --> 00:38:01,821 ISABELLA: At one point, Nancy brought me aside and goes, 744 00:38:01,821 --> 00:38:04,115 "You're just being very attention seeking." 745 00:38:05,408 --> 00:38:08,494 I remember, she said that and I was so scared. 746 00:38:08,494 --> 00:38:11,455 I didn't want to be attention seeking. 747 00:38:11,455 --> 00:38:14,291 Like I didn't want to be unethical. 748 00:38:15,334 --> 00:38:16,752 So I just withdrew. 749 00:38:21,298 --> 00:38:25,803 And so it's true I stopped ticcing, 750 00:38:25,803 --> 00:38:28,472 but I became broken in other ways. 751 00:38:41,694 --> 00:38:44,030 {\an8}MERRY: Probably a year into NXIVM, 752 00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:48,492 we noticed her personality changed dramatically. 753 00:38:49,744 --> 00:38:55,666 She became very controlled, and she had lost her voice. 754 00:38:55,666 --> 00:38:57,918 You joining us, Belle, or are you gonna-- 755 00:38:57,918 --> 00:38:59,837 - I'm gonna stand. - MERRY: You're gonna stand? 756 00:38:59,837 --> 00:39:01,213 Yeah. 757 00:39:01,213 --> 00:39:03,424 I actually do want to ask you a question, but I don't want 758 00:39:03,424 --> 00:39:06,135 to have a conversation like this, please. 759 00:39:06,135 --> 00:39:08,346 (BREATHES DEEPLY) 760 00:39:11,974 --> 00:39:15,603 So, during that study, you would be angry. 761 00:39:15,603 --> 00:39:17,772 What was the anger about? 762 00:39:17,772 --> 00:39:20,483 Uh, the curriculum devalues you 763 00:39:20,483 --> 00:39:23,235 without making it obvious that it's putting you down. 764 00:39:23,235 --> 00:39:26,989 Like, Marc suggested I take a penance for still ticcing, 765 00:39:26,989 --> 00:39:28,532 and I was like, "I don't want to do that." 766 00:39:28,532 --> 00:39:29,742 He was like, "No, it's with love!" 767 00:39:29,742 --> 00:39:31,952 MERRY: What-- What's a penance? What do you mean? 768 00:39:31,952 --> 00:39:34,371 ISABELLA: I don't know, something like... (SIGHS) 769 00:39:35,456 --> 00:39:38,167 ...to help hold you accountable 770 00:39:38,167 --> 00:39:40,544 for the thing that you say you want to do. 771 00:39:40,544 --> 00:39:41,879 - If you're not doing it-- - But what-- 772 00:39:41,879 --> 00:39:43,047 - GARY CONSTANTINO: What was-- - What did you-- 773 00:39:43,047 --> 00:39:44,215 ISABELLA: Anything. I don't know. 774 00:39:44,215 --> 00:39:45,633 People did different things. They would... 775 00:39:45,633 --> 00:39:47,635 - GARY: Sweep the ground? - MERRY: Physical? Mental? 776 00:39:47,635 --> 00:39:50,471 Anything. It could be anything. It could be... 777 00:39:50,471 --> 00:39:52,306 - you know, if you're-- - GARY: Give me one of yours. 778 00:39:52,306 --> 00:39:53,808 Do you want me to tell you or... 779 00:39:53,808 --> 00:39:56,685 -(MERRY CHUCKLES) - GARY: Give me an example of what you did. 780 00:39:56,685 --> 00:39:58,562 Can we-- Can I? Okay. 781 00:39:58,562 --> 00:40:01,774 So, some people would run a mile every day 782 00:40:01,774 --> 00:40:04,985 or some people would not, you know, eat for a day. 783 00:40:04,985 --> 00:40:07,947 Is... I'm just curious. 784 00:40:07,947 --> 00:40:12,118 Is not being nice simply trying to make you do 785 00:40:12,118 --> 00:40:13,744 what you don't want to do at that moment? 786 00:40:13,744 --> 00:40:15,621 ISABELLA: No, it's-- it doesn't matter 787 00:40:15,621 --> 00:40:16,956 what you want to do. It's... 788 00:40:18,207 --> 00:40:19,208 what they want to do. 789 00:40:19,208 --> 00:40:21,669 And then they say it's what you want. 790 00:40:22,419 --> 00:40:24,380 And then they break you, like, 791 00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:26,590 the harder you work, the more you struggle. 792 00:40:26,590 --> 00:40:28,509 And that's how they keep you in. 793 00:40:28,509 --> 00:40:30,177 GARY: Hmm. 794 00:40:30,177 --> 00:40:34,223 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 795 00:40:43,274 --> 00:40:49,572 NANCY: What we found in ESP was that many of us set goals 796 00:40:49,572 --> 00:40:51,073 but found it difficult 797 00:40:51,073 --> 00:40:54,577 because there wasn't any consequence. 798 00:40:54,577 --> 00:40:58,455 Like, I had a woman and she said to me, 799 00:40:58,455 --> 00:41:01,333 "I have a thing where I-- I have two numbers. 800 00:41:01,333 --> 00:41:03,460 My numbers are eight and nine." 801 00:41:03,460 --> 00:41:04,962 And I said, "And how does that limit you?" 802 00:41:04,962 --> 00:41:06,130 And she said, 803 00:41:06,130 --> 00:41:09,383 "Well, I'm always late because I have to do things 804 00:41:09,383 --> 00:41:12,970 89 times or 98 times." 805 00:41:12,970 --> 00:41:15,055 So I disconnected the stimulus response. 806 00:41:15,055 --> 00:41:17,641 And then I said to her, "You're going to have to do 807 00:41:17,641 --> 00:41:22,062 something physical to break the state in the moment." 808 00:41:22,062 --> 00:41:25,024 She said, "Like what?" And I said, "Like, a plank." 809 00:41:26,317 --> 00:41:28,611 ANNOUNCER: Plank position, as though you're about to plank. 810 00:41:28,611 --> 00:41:29,904 Nice, straight line. 811 00:41:29,904 --> 00:41:31,030 Come over here. 812 00:41:46,170 --> 00:41:48,422 NANCY: If you have a very bad habit, 813 00:41:48,422 --> 00:41:51,592 there's no reason to stop it, really. 814 00:41:51,592 --> 00:41:53,928 So you have to make it feel bad. 815 00:41:56,305 --> 00:41:58,474 The only way we change something 816 00:41:58,474 --> 00:42:00,559 is when change is easier than not changing. 817 00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:02,728 And if you don't commit to a consequence, 818 00:42:02,728 --> 00:42:05,231 you're never going to break this habit. 819 00:42:09,693 --> 00:42:13,072 {\an8}(BIRDS CHIRPING) 820 00:42:15,157 --> 00:42:17,326 ANN CONSTANTINO: That's what I do at the center. 821 00:42:19,787 --> 00:42:20,829 Okay? 822 00:42:25,542 --> 00:42:28,379 That's it. Enough for the old lady. 823 00:42:28,379 --> 00:42:30,381 -(CHUCKLES) -(LAUGHS) 824 00:42:30,381 --> 00:42:32,925 Well, she went-- Where was it that you went to? 825 00:42:32,925 --> 00:42:34,718 - Al-- Albany. - Albany. 826 00:42:35,386 --> 00:42:36,887 That's-- she went there. 827 00:42:36,887 --> 00:42:40,683 And from when she went there to when she came home... 828 00:42:40,683 --> 00:42:43,185 {\an8}God bless whoever did it. 829 00:42:44,103 --> 00:42:45,688 {\an8}All the saints in heaven. 830 00:42:45,688 --> 00:42:48,148 You got your health, you got everything. 831 00:42:48,148 --> 00:42:50,943 You could have a million dollars and not have your health, 832 00:42:50,943 --> 00:42:52,444 what good is it, right? 833 00:42:55,489 --> 00:42:56,490 Yep. 834 00:43:04,290 --> 00:43:05,791 (SMOOCHES) 835 00:43:05,791 --> 00:43:08,377 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 836 00:43:11,088 --> 00:43:13,090 ISABELLA: Do you remember the first time I saw you 837 00:43:13,090 --> 00:43:15,759 when I came back from the treatment? 838 00:43:15,759 --> 00:43:17,720 {\an8}Oh, I do remember when you came home 839 00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:19,722 {\an8}and we passed each other, 840 00:43:19,722 --> 00:43:22,224 and I waited for you to, like, smack me a few times? 841 00:43:22,224 --> 00:43:24,018 If we brushed each other, I'd have to do like, a routine. 842 00:43:24,018 --> 00:43:25,769 CHRISTINA CONSTANTINO: You'd have to like-- yeah. 843 00:43:25,769 --> 00:43:27,605 So I just stood there, like, waited for it, 844 00:43:27,605 --> 00:43:28,981 and I turned around, 845 00:43:28,981 --> 00:43:30,983 and you were-- you, like, you kept walking. 846 00:43:30,983 --> 00:43:32,943 I was like, "Oh, cool." (CHUCKLES) 847 00:43:32,943 --> 00:43:35,529 MERRY: I mean, there was a time we couldn't touch her. 848 00:43:35,529 --> 00:43:36,655 Now? 849 00:43:37,573 --> 00:43:40,200 -(ALL CHUCKLE) - That's my baby. 850 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,453 GARY: Just testing it, are you, Mom? 851 00:43:42,453 --> 00:43:44,079 ANN: This is what I can't understand, 852 00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:45,581 how they did it. 853 00:43:45,581 --> 00:43:46,749 ISABELLA: It was like, 854 00:43:46,749 --> 00:43:50,878 helping us understand Tourette's differently. 855 00:43:52,087 --> 00:43:54,631 But like, it was really difficult. 856 00:43:54,631 --> 00:43:58,719 And, you know, people would say, "But you had Tourette's." 857 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,929 So there's-- That was always a good one. 858 00:44:00,929 --> 00:44:03,557 People want to-- "But you had Tourette's." 859 00:44:03,557 --> 00:44:06,352 - The key word here is "had." - GARY: Yeah. Yep. 860 00:44:07,686 --> 00:44:10,397 (CHUCKLES) Yeah. The positive is, 861 00:44:10,397 --> 00:44:13,734 your symptoms are diminished or eliminated. 862 00:44:13,734 --> 00:44:16,904 You've built new skills because of NXIVM. 863 00:44:16,904 --> 00:44:21,492 I believe they can make you more productive, more efficient. 864 00:44:21,492 --> 00:44:22,701 And those are all positives 865 00:44:22,701 --> 00:44:24,578 and you did not have that when you left here. 866 00:44:24,578 --> 00:44:27,206 CHRISTINA: You don't think there are after-effects? 867 00:44:27,206 --> 00:44:28,457 GARY: Oh, I'm sure there are. 868 00:44:28,457 --> 00:44:32,294 But whatever happened there, created this... 869 00:44:33,087 --> 00:44:34,922 effect on your sister. 870 00:44:34,922 --> 00:44:36,715 She was taking medications to the point 871 00:44:36,715 --> 00:44:38,926 where we were frightened for her longevity. 872 00:44:38,926 --> 00:44:41,345 No, I mean, I agree with you guys completely. 873 00:44:41,345 --> 00:44:44,181 It's just, a lot of it was when I came home, 874 00:44:44,181 --> 00:44:46,809 you guys didn't see how hard it was. 875 00:44:46,809 --> 00:44:48,685 It was like, "Okay, you need to get a job. 876 00:44:48,685 --> 00:44:49,853 You need to get going." 877 00:44:49,853 --> 00:44:52,398 It wasn't even, like, how far I've come. 878 00:44:52,398 --> 00:44:54,608 It was like, "You're behind." 879 00:44:55,317 --> 00:44:57,403 Once again, like in ESP, 880 00:44:57,403 --> 00:45:00,239 I don't feel a lot of choice here. 881 00:45:01,156 --> 00:45:02,908 GARY: Our experience has been 882 00:45:02,908 --> 00:45:04,910 that if we don't set expectations... 883 00:45:06,161 --> 00:45:07,287 nothing happens. 884 00:45:07,287 --> 00:45:12,835 You don't realize how much, how much it's-- it's taken 885 00:45:12,835 --> 00:45:15,629 to get to this point. I'm getting better, 886 00:45:15,629 --> 00:45:17,631 but I'm not in a healthy space here. 887 00:45:17,631 --> 00:45:19,425 Yeah, I... this is... 888 00:45:19,425 --> 00:45:23,178 This is-- I'm gonna-- I'm gonna step away 889 00:45:23,178 --> 00:45:25,222 'cause I'm a little defensive about it, 890 00:45:25,222 --> 00:45:26,306 'cause I'm really angry. 891 00:45:26,306 --> 00:45:27,933 - GARY: I think so. Yeah. - ISABELLA: All right. 892 00:45:30,227 --> 00:45:31,687 GARY: I don't know what's going on, Merr. 893 00:45:31,687 --> 00:45:34,815 - I just... don't know, Merr. - Hmm. 894 00:45:36,817 --> 00:45:39,027 My approach to Keith and the leadership 895 00:45:39,027 --> 00:45:42,614 and all the bad is, that's bad. 896 00:45:42,614 --> 00:45:46,535 It doesn't change the reality. She was able to do something 897 00:45:46,535 --> 00:45:49,997 simply because she began to believe in herself to do it. 898 00:45:49,997 --> 00:45:52,916 And it is supportive people who cared about her around her. 899 00:45:52,916 --> 00:45:55,794 I cannot believe you can separate it... 900 00:45:57,463 --> 00:45:58,630 the way you are. 901 00:45:59,882 --> 00:46:01,800 No. No. 902 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,595 I-- I-- It makes me so angry... 903 00:46:04,595 --> 00:46:07,014 - Hmm. - ...that people with power 904 00:46:07,014 --> 00:46:10,142 are taking, you know, were taking advantage of... 905 00:46:10,976 --> 00:46:12,853 - of their knowledge... -(INHALES) 906 00:46:12,853 --> 00:46:14,897 ...and their position. 907 00:46:14,897 --> 00:46:18,317 I'm not condoning it. What they did was duplicitous. 908 00:46:20,068 --> 00:46:21,653 But still there was good. 909 00:46:23,906 --> 00:46:25,574 And that good is real. 910 00:46:25,574 --> 00:46:28,952 ♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 911 00:46:28,952 --> 00:46:32,164 {\an8}-(CAR HORNS BLARING) -(SIREN WAILING) 912 00:46:38,879 --> 00:46:41,340 {\an8}MARC AGNIFILO: People didn't stay in NXIVM 913 00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:44,384 or even in DOS because they were coerced. 914 00:46:44,384 --> 00:46:46,970 They stayed in it because they really thought 915 00:46:46,970 --> 00:46:50,182 they were making society and the world better, 916 00:46:50,182 --> 00:46:53,143 you know, through these very tangible things. 917 00:46:53,143 --> 00:46:56,188 The Tourette study was just fascinating. 918 00:46:56,188 --> 00:46:58,607 Personal growth is hard to measure. 919 00:46:58,607 --> 00:47:02,653 The Tourette's is measurable. You know, you could see it. 920 00:47:02,653 --> 00:47:06,365 I think it really comes down to, "Does this group do good?" 921 00:47:06,365 --> 00:47:09,284 And if it does, and I think it does, 922 00:47:09,284 --> 00:47:12,204 I don't think a jury is going to want the government 923 00:47:12,204 --> 00:47:13,413 to have destroyed it. 924 00:47:15,123 --> 00:47:18,085 {\an8}Oh, I-- I don't buy any of it. 925 00:47:18,085 --> 00:47:21,463 {\an8}There have been studies showing that cognitive behavioral therapy 926 00:47:21,463 --> 00:47:24,132 {\an8}can be very effective in Tourette's. 927 00:47:25,717 --> 00:47:27,219 So there may have been techniques 928 00:47:27,219 --> 00:47:28,762 that Nancy Salzman was able to use 929 00:47:28,762 --> 00:47:32,599 that did reduce some small number of people's tics, 930 00:47:32,599 --> 00:47:34,726 but that had nothing to do with Keith Raniere 931 00:47:34,726 --> 00:47:36,228 or NXIVM teachings. 932 00:47:38,522 --> 00:47:40,732 One of the things that made NXIVM so dangerous 933 00:47:40,732 --> 00:47:43,902 was the way it would use some legitimate psychological tools 934 00:47:43,902 --> 00:47:46,238 in a really manipulative, coercive way. 935 00:47:49,616 --> 00:47:51,743 It's really sad because some of the people 936 00:47:51,743 --> 00:47:53,996 who ended up in this so-called study 937 00:47:53,996 --> 00:47:55,330 were so vulnerable, 938 00:47:55,330 --> 00:47:58,125 they were absolutely desperate to deal with this serious, 939 00:47:58,125 --> 00:48:00,294 complicated disease. 940 00:48:00,294 --> 00:48:02,713 And they just ended up being harmed further. 941 00:48:04,298 --> 00:48:08,093 There was all this pressure on them to show improvement 942 00:48:08,093 --> 00:48:10,637 so that Keith and NXIVM would look good. 943 00:48:12,556 --> 00:48:14,182 It's just completely unethical 944 00:48:14,182 --> 00:48:16,476 to experiment on people this way. 945 00:48:21,398 --> 00:48:24,985 {\an8}(TRAIN BELL RINGING) 946 00:48:26,862 --> 00:48:28,363 ISABELLA: I told my parents last night 947 00:48:28,363 --> 00:48:29,865 that I was coming here. 948 00:48:32,534 --> 00:48:35,287 Going to the trial, I think, will be helpful 949 00:48:35,287 --> 00:48:38,457 just to process and get a sense of closure. 950 00:48:47,591 --> 00:48:49,092 (CLEARS THROAT QUIETLY) 951 00:49:00,604 --> 00:49:02,564 MERRY: It's taken me quite a while to understand 952 00:49:02,564 --> 00:49:06,026 that she's probably experienced something like PTSD. 953 00:49:08,028 --> 00:49:09,237 The deal with the devil 954 00:49:09,237 --> 00:49:11,406 was going in with our eyes wide open, 955 00:49:11,406 --> 00:49:14,201 knowing that there was weird stuff going on 956 00:49:14,201 --> 00:49:15,577 in the background here. 957 00:49:16,578 --> 00:49:18,747 But we were willing to take... 958 00:49:20,082 --> 00:49:21,792 what could be a big risk... 959 00:49:23,210 --> 00:49:24,586 to get help for Isabella. 960 00:49:26,588 --> 00:49:29,383 And we believed that she would be protected 961 00:49:29,383 --> 00:49:32,969 by someone like Nancy, who had daughters herself. 962 00:49:33,971 --> 00:49:36,223 {\an8}♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 963 00:49:36,807 --> 00:49:38,517 {\an8}(DOOR OPENING) 964 00:49:39,726 --> 00:49:40,769 NANCY: Hello. 965 00:49:44,481 --> 00:49:46,858 MICHELLE SALZMAN: She used to do these, like... 966 00:49:46,858 --> 00:49:49,236 {\an8}I'd come home from a party or from whatever 967 00:49:49,236 --> 00:49:52,406 {\an8}and I'd have to wake her up to, like, tell her that I was home, 968 00:49:52,406 --> 00:49:55,033 {\an8}and she'd like smell me... (LAUGHS) 969 00:49:55,033 --> 00:49:58,036 ...to see if I had been like, you know, I assume smoking 970 00:49:58,036 --> 00:49:59,913 - or drinking or something. - NANCY: Drinking. 971 00:49:59,913 --> 00:50:02,290 -(CHUCKLES) I'd go, "Come here." - She'd go... (INHALES SHARPLY) 972 00:50:02,290 --> 00:50:03,333 (LAUGHS) 973 00:50:03,333 --> 00:50:05,544 Like, she'd wake up inhaling me. 974 00:50:05,544 --> 00:50:06,920 -(LAUGHS) - MICHELLE SALZMAN: The-- 975 00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:08,880 There was one time when Lauren and I 976 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,258 got really high and we came home, 977 00:50:11,258 --> 00:50:15,053 - and Keith was over. (LAUGHS) -(NANCY LAUGHS) 978 00:50:15,053 --> 00:50:17,347 - No! Really? - MICHELLE: Yes. 979 00:50:17,347 --> 00:50:18,473 This is something that we... 980 00:50:18,473 --> 00:50:20,726 NANCY: Was this after Lauren graduated? 981 00:50:20,726 --> 00:50:22,185 MICHELLE: Yeah, it was early. 982 00:50:22,185 --> 00:50:23,770 - It was super early. - So it was when I first met Keith, right. 983 00:50:23,770 --> 00:50:25,564 MICHELLE: I don't even know if ESP started yet. 984 00:50:25,564 --> 00:50:27,149 No, it was probably that summer. 985 00:50:27,149 --> 00:50:29,234 But we kind of like, my mom already started learning 986 00:50:29,234 --> 00:50:31,987 about parasitic strategies. 987 00:50:31,987 --> 00:50:35,365 And so, things that Lauren and I were doing... (CHUCKLES) 988 00:50:35,365 --> 00:50:38,160 ...she was like, "You're just being a parasite." 989 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,079 We were like, "What the fuck are you even talking about?" 990 00:50:41,079 --> 00:50:42,664 NANCY: (LAUGHS) They were so mad at me. 991 00:50:42,664 --> 00:50:45,000 -(LAUGHS) - Like, who is this person? 992 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,043 - What are you being taught? - You guys were-- Lauren was-- 993 00:50:47,043 --> 00:50:49,546 You were trying to hold us accountable 994 00:50:49,546 --> 00:50:52,007 with these like new strategies that you had. 995 00:50:52,007 --> 00:50:53,633 NANCY: You know, I always wanted to be 996 00:50:53,633 --> 00:50:55,677 - a good mother. - Of course. 997 00:50:55,677 --> 00:50:59,097 No, of course, which is why we did all of this stuff. 998 00:50:59,097 --> 00:51:02,476 - Why we followed you anywhere. - NANCY: Right. 999 00:51:07,522 --> 00:51:11,359 ♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 1000 00:51:18,450 --> 00:51:20,243 {\an8}(OVER VOICEMAIL) 1001 00:51:47,437 --> 00:51:49,314 NANCY: How could someone who created something 1002 00:51:49,314 --> 00:51:50,899 that was so beautiful, 1003 00:51:50,899 --> 00:51:52,943 do something that was so terrible? 1004 00:51:56,112 --> 00:51:58,657 When I first hired my lawyer, he said, 1005 00:51:58,657 --> 00:52:03,203 "Anybody who stands trial with Keith will go to jail. 1006 00:52:04,162 --> 00:52:05,580 You have to plead guilty." 1007 00:52:06,832 --> 00:52:08,917 And then he said, "You have to convince your daughter 1008 00:52:08,917 --> 00:52:10,502 to plead guilty too." 1009 00:52:13,338 --> 00:52:15,131 We tried to have the case severed 1010 00:52:15,131 --> 00:52:19,678 so that the sex crimes were on-- in one case 1011 00:52:19,678 --> 00:52:22,222 and the non-sex crimes were in another case, 1012 00:52:22,222 --> 00:52:24,558 because they're very different crimes. 1013 00:52:24,558 --> 00:52:27,227 But they made it an enterprise and they said 1014 00:52:27,227 --> 00:52:28,770 they're not severing the case. 1015 00:52:30,063 --> 00:52:34,192 I think they arrested me because they wanted to pit 1016 00:52:34,192 --> 00:52:35,819 Lauren and I against each other. 1017 00:52:39,281 --> 00:52:42,158 At that point, the only thing we could do is plead guilty 1018 00:52:42,158 --> 00:52:47,247 because if I didn't plead guilty and get Lauren to plead guilty, 1019 00:52:47,247 --> 00:52:49,958 she would have gone to jail for ten or more years. 1020 00:52:52,919 --> 00:52:56,089 Lauren took a little while to come to terms with it. 1021 00:52:57,966 --> 00:53:00,051 KEITH: The body can do so much more 1022 00:53:00,051 --> 00:53:02,262 than the mind alone. 1023 00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:05,265 There's one drill that we do. You wanna step up? 1024 00:53:05,265 --> 00:53:06,641 I mean, I think you've... 1025 00:53:06,641 --> 00:53:08,435 Follow my hands with your hands, right? 1026 00:53:08,435 --> 00:53:11,479 Follow them exactly. Pretty good. 1027 00:53:11,479 --> 00:53:13,565 - But you're thinking too much. -(LAUREN CHUCKLES) 1028 00:53:13,565 --> 00:53:16,067 Now, if you do it with me, uh, if-- if I don't-- 1029 00:53:16,067 --> 00:53:18,069 - You-- you're not moving. - Oh, you want me to do-- 1030 00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:19,738 Oh, I'm in the other position. 1031 00:53:22,574 --> 00:53:24,200 I mean, I'm not-- 1032 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:25,994 - Oh! -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS) 1033 00:53:25,994 --> 00:53:27,454 - My honey. - LAUREN: Oh. 1034 00:53:27,454 --> 00:53:30,332 - But-- Are you okay? - Yeah, just give me one sec. 1035 00:53:30,332 --> 00:53:31,499 Please hit me. 1036 00:53:31,499 --> 00:53:33,501 - No, I don't want to. (CHUCKLES) -(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES) 1037 00:53:33,501 --> 00:53:34,794 I'm s-- I'm sorry 1038 00:53:34,794 --> 00:53:37,130 - for the-- for the strike. - LAUREN: It's okay. It's okay. 1039 00:53:37,130 --> 00:53:39,424 But if you learn to suspend your mind, 1040 00:53:39,424 --> 00:53:41,092 then the body can do all sorts of things 1041 00:53:41,092 --> 00:53:43,261 that you've never done before. 1042 00:53:43,261 --> 00:53:45,096 So I think what you need to decide 1043 00:53:45,096 --> 00:53:47,474 is what do you really want 1044 00:53:47,474 --> 00:53:49,309 and how much are you willing to devote 1045 00:53:49,309 --> 00:53:50,685 to being a master at it? 1046 00:53:53,396 --> 00:53:55,523 NANCY: She just loved him and she wanted to believe 1047 00:53:55,523 --> 00:53:57,651 that it wasn't what it was. 1048 00:53:58,526 --> 00:53:59,569 Are you okay? 1049 00:53:59,569 --> 00:54:00,946 - LAUREN: Yeah. - Yeah. Okay. 1050 00:54:03,698 --> 00:54:05,283 It was very difficult for her, 1051 00:54:05,283 --> 00:54:08,578 and what she did was very, very difficult for her, 1052 00:54:08,578 --> 00:54:11,373 and she was the only one who could do it. 1053 00:54:13,541 --> 00:54:16,503 Testify about the sorority. 1054 00:54:16,503 --> 00:54:18,630 ♪ (SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 1055 00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:20,715 NANCY: Lauren gave them more information 1056 00:54:20,715 --> 00:54:22,634 than they knew existed. 1057 00:54:23,885 --> 00:54:25,428 She really turned the case. 1058 00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:29,516 REPORTER 5: The second weekend, 1059 00:54:29,516 --> 00:54:31,476 the federal NXIVM trial wraps up in Brooklyn 1060 00:54:31,476 --> 00:54:33,561 with Lauren Salzman on the stand. 1061 00:54:33,561 --> 00:54:35,188 REPORTER 6: Lauren Salzman held 1062 00:54:35,188 --> 00:54:36,940 several high-ranking positions 1063 00:54:36,940 --> 00:54:39,734 and acted as times as a recruiter, teacher, 1064 00:54:39,734 --> 00:54:41,695 and a DOS master. 1065 00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:43,530 Salzman is the first co-conspirator 1066 00:54:43,530 --> 00:54:46,324 to testify against Keith Raniere. 1067 00:54:46,324 --> 00:54:48,702 REPORTER 7: We will be keeping our eye on what could turn out 1068 00:54:48,702 --> 00:54:51,663 to be a very pivotal day in the case. 1069 00:54:51,663 --> 00:54:54,040 (GAVEL BANGS) 1070 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,500 JUDGE GARAUFIS: The government may call 1071 00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:57,752 its next witness to the stand. 1072 00:54:57,752 --> 00:54:59,045 TANYA HAJJAR: The government calls 1073 00:54:59,045 --> 00:55:00,547 Lauren Salzman to the stand. 1074 00:55:01,256 --> 00:55:03,967 (FOOTSTEPS) 1075 00:55:03,967 --> 00:55:05,385 TANYA: Good morning, Ms. Salzman. 1076 00:55:06,177 --> 00:55:07,303 Good morning. 1077 00:55:08,596 --> 00:55:10,849 How long were you a part of NXIVM? 1078 00:55:13,935 --> 00:55:15,687 LAUREN: Almost 20 years. 1079 00:55:15,687 --> 00:55:18,523 TANYA: Who first approached you about DOS? 1080 00:55:18,523 --> 00:55:20,734 LAUREN: Keith first approached me. 1081 00:55:20,734 --> 00:55:23,695 He said that he wanted to make our relationship closer. 1082 00:55:23,695 --> 00:55:25,989 Let me into your space. 1083 00:55:25,989 --> 00:55:27,699 And he asked me what I was willing to do 1084 00:55:27,699 --> 00:55:30,744 for my growth and for my commitment to him. 1085 00:55:31,953 --> 00:55:33,121 TANYA: What did you say? 1086 00:55:35,081 --> 00:55:36,166 LAUREN: Anything. 1087 00:55:38,501 --> 00:55:39,627 Anything. 1088 00:55:39,627 --> 00:55:42,797 ♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC CONCLUDES) ♪ 1089 00:55:46,176 --> 00:55:50,847 ♪ ("PIANO IN THE SKY" BY WINONA OAK PLAYING) ♪ 1090 00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:58,021 ♪ There's a piano in the sky ♪ 1091 00:55:58,021 --> 00:56:02,025 ♪ I hear it playing All the time ♪ 1092 00:56:03,526 --> 00:56:07,238 ♪ There's a rope I'm holding tight ♪ 1093 00:56:08,323 --> 00:56:12,786 ♪ I dream of falling Every night ♪ 1094 00:56:12,786 --> 00:56:16,623 ♪ I'm tired of thinking That I don't deserve you ♪ 1095 00:56:17,999 --> 00:56:22,796 ♪ I'm dreading the day When you let me go ♪ 1096 00:56:22,796 --> 00:56:27,133 ♪ So take all this love From me ♪ 1097 00:56:27,133 --> 00:56:32,514 ♪ I don't want to feel anymore ♪ 1098 00:56:32,514 --> 00:56:37,143 ♪ Just take this heart of me ♪ 1099 00:56:37,143 --> 00:56:39,813 ♪ You had every part of me ♪ 1100 00:56:39,813 --> 00:56:43,942 ♪ I'll be fine, I promise ♪ 1101 00:56:43,942 --> 00:56:50,281 ♪ Don't say, don't say Don't say, don't say ♪ 1102 00:56:50,281 --> 00:56:54,244 ♪ There's a way To live without me, baby ♪ 1103 00:56:54,244 --> 00:56:59,791 ♪ Too late, too late It's all too late ♪ 1104 00:56:59,791 --> 00:57:05,004 ♪ So I'll stay till we break ♪ 1105 00:57:05,004 --> 00:57:08,925 ♪ ("PIANO IN THE SKY" CONCLUDES) ♪