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(VIDEO CASSETTE CLATTERING)
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(STATIC)
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Keith Raniere has done something
that has never been
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documented before
in the history of psychology
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or any of the information
on human potential.
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He has quantified
the structure of emotions,
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the nature of emotions,
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and how human beings
either limit
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or empower themselves,
with their emotions.
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(STATIC)
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NANCY SALZMAN: In ESP,
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we taught something
called "state control."
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A series of events happen,
we make a meaning,
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and based on that meaning,
we have an emotional reaction,
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which means we're choosing
the emotional reaction
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based on the meaning.
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Right? We may not be aware
we're choosing it,
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but we are actually choosing it.
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And we do exercises with people
so that they begin to gain
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a feeling of control
over those choices.
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So, if something happens,
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and I have an impulse
to be angry,
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I can act on that impulse
and yell at you
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and scream at you,
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or I can have the impulse
and choose not to indulge it.
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So I can choose
to bring up a state.
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I can be sitting here like this
right now and I can say,
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"I am so mad, I can't stand it!
This is not acceptable to me!"
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Or not.
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♪ (EERIE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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♪ ("DREAM STATE"
FT. BONNIE PIESSE
BY SON LUX PLAYING) ♪
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♪ Days we were young ♪
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♪ We took photographs
Of everything we could see ♪
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♪ We had to run from it ♪
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♪ Priest and prophetess
We were nothing we would defy ♪
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♪ Oh ♪
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♪ Invisible skin
Where is the world within? ♪
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♪ Invincible skin
It's how we all begin ♪
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♪ ("DREAM STATE"
CONCLUDES) ♪
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♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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(BIRDS CHIRPING)
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REPORTER 1:
The trial against
alleged cult leader,
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Keith Raniere,
entering its second week today.
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REPORTER 2: Raniere is facing
a number of charges,
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including sex trafficking
and racketeering.
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NANCY: Uh, you know,
it's hard to process this.
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I think it takes a long time,
and I haven't had therapy.
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I have thought
that it would give me a way
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of just talking it all through.
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(OBJECTS CLATTERING)
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These are all Keith.
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He didn't want us to throw away
anything he ever wrote.
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When we were creating
the intensive...
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he would draw these
on the floor of my house.
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"A causes B in the past,
event B, event A.
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Uh, the future.
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So we have nothing
to do with past events."
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I don't know
what he was trying to say,
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but we laminated it.
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Twenty years is right here.
Twenty years of curriculum.
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KEITH RANIERE:
If you represent this as you...
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would you say
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that there is what we'll call
"optimal you"?
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Or optimal...
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NANCY: The idea was that
he had this very special skill
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to create behavior change.
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It wasn't a science,
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but he wanted
to make it a science.
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So it had to be reproducible,
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verifiable, consistent,
and measurable.
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By the way, I am doing this
completely extemporaneously.
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I'm imagining... (LAUGHS)
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NANCY: But it wasn't like
he had the technology done.
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He had an idea.
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And then he had
a bunch of concepts.
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And he started teaching me
parts of it.
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This is Keith and Nancy,
and it's 6:02 am.
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KEITH: So, tell me,
what is responsibility?
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NANCY: Okay, uh,
responsibility is--
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KEITH: This is pretty simple
and easy.
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NANCY: Yeah, it's--
it's the causes and the effects.
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Uh, your-- your participation
in the causes and the effects.
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Yeah. So that's some--
something you can affect.
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- NANCY: Mm-hmm.
-(PEN SCRATCHING)
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NANCY: He thought we were
only going to need 20 modules.
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I wrote 2000 modules
by the time ESP was done.
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They were Keith's concepts,
and I codified them.
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When I was first starting out
in my professional career,
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I began to really think
about this thing,
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the mind-body connection.
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The more I learned, the more
I realized that I didn't know.
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NANCY: I was always fascinated
by how much we could do
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using our mind over our body.
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Did you ever hear a story
about a 110-pound woman
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who picked up a 4000-pound car
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because she thought her baby
was underneath it?
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Human beings
have incredible resources
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and we can produce
unprecedented results
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under the right set
of circumstances.
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NANCY: I always wanted to know
what the limits
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of our model was.
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I wanted to work
with chronic pain.
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I wanted to work
with eating dis--
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I wanted to work
with a number of things.
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Keith, he said before we work
with people with disorders,
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I want us to work
with healthy people
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who just want to change
patterns of behavior
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that limit them.
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But people would come
who would have certain disorders
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and they would say,
"Will this help this?"
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(GRUNTS)
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NANCY: And then
Marc Elliot showed up.
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(GRUNTS)
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MARC ELLIOT: I started ticcing
when I was five years old.
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{\an8}Started with eye blinking.
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{\an8}In high school,
my Tourette's got way worse.
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The way that I would describe it
is that there's an itch
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and there's a scratch.
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So Tourette syndrome,
in my opinion,
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is that very uncomfortable itch.
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(GRUNTS) I won't tic.
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MARC: And then the tic
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is actually someone
scratching that itch.
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It's not like I'm possessed
by the devil,
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and-- and... (GRUNTS)
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...something's moving my mouth.
I was moving it.
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It's just very hard
not to scratch it.
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{\an8}MARC: I tried all sorts
of different treatments.
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I tried neuroleptic drugs,
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like very serious
anti-psychotic drugs
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which the side effects of,
I mean, you're so lethargic,
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you're so sleepy,
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it's almost like
you're a zombie.
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And it finally got to the point
that I decided,
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forget medication,
I'm just gonna live my life.
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(MARC GRUNTS, CLACKS TEETH)
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MARC: I wasn't waiting
for the cure.
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In fact,
it was the direct opposite.
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(MARC GRUNTS)
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Because I can't stop this.
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The best path for me
to have a better life,
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is to then get the whole world
to accept me.
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(GRUNTS)
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I have Tourette's by the way,
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just gonna throw that
out there, okay?
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People look at me and make
a lot of assumptions
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about who I am as a person.
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MARC: I was 24 years old,
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speaking about
compassion and tolerance.
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It was a dream come true externally.
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But internally, the thing
that I didn't have was peace.
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And then I learned about ESP.
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And this is
what's most important.
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I did not go for Tourette's.
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It wasn't even an iota
of a thought in my mind
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about somehow this training
could affect my Tourette's.
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- NANCY: Hey, everybody.
- LEADER 1: Stay standing.
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- LEADER 2: Hello.
- NANCY: How are you all?
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MARC: Nancy comes in
and she picks me to be the demo
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of the fear sourcing.
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A fear sourcing is going back
to the root of your fear.
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You had an experience
at some time,
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and you didn't know
how to make sense of it,
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and you became fearful.
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MARC: You have to think about
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what fear do you want
to work on.
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And I don't know why,
but I decided
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that maybe
I'm afraid of losing Tourette's.
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Six days earlier,
if you would have come up to me
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and said like, "Hey, you know,
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you might be afraid
of losing Tourette's,"
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I literally would've punched you
or said, "Fuck you."
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But we explored the fear,
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and it wasn't that I was afraid
of losing Tourette's,
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I was just afraid
of not being special anymore.
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I just had
such a fundamental shift of--
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I'm not seeing myself
as a victim to this thing.
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What if you could figure out
what's causing the itch?
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Which is a completely
different paradigm.
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The more that you can really get
to the root of that,
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what I found was,
my itch started to go down.
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I remember being
in a train station...
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and I walk into the middle
and I just stood there.
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I literally was like
everyone else.
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And I had never had that
in my entire life.
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HOST: Now is the moment
where we introduce
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an amazing man.
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He has inspired thousands
of people. Marc Elliot!
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-(AUDIENCE CHEERING, APPLAUDING)
- Whoo!
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Thank you!
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Living with Tourette syndrome,
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I really had the chance
to see what is it like
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to be so different
than everyone else.
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But in 2010,
I met an American scientist
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and philosopher,
his name is Keith Raniere,
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and he actually
created the courses
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that provided the tools
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that helped me
beat my Tourette's.
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(AUDIENCE CHEERING, APPLAUDING)
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MARC: Nothing like this
has ever been done
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in history that I know of.
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And now I've been like this,
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um, for about
the last four years.
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You know, that's why
I'm-- I'm so grateful
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to Keith and to Nancy
and to NXIVM.
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It's not because I'm--
I'm some--
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I had this indoctrination.
I've had a horrible 20 years.
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You know, what do you--
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How do you feel
towards the person
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that literally gave you
an opportunity and the tools
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to craft an existence
that you couldn't even dream of?
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♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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{\an8}(METAL CLATTERING)
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(CLATTERS, BEEPS)
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NANCY: When I did
the Tourette's work,
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I think I may have learned
more than anything else I did.
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So, this is Marc,
and Marc's volunteered
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to demonstrate anger
for us today.
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So this is what
I'm going to ask you to do.
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NANCY: When Marc
first came to ESP,
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I studied him the whole week.
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{\an8}(CHUCKLES)
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He would think in his mind,
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"What is the worst
possible thing
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that I could say?"
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So, like, when he first met me,
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he said, "Bitch! Bitch!
Bitch! Bitch! Bitch!" (LAUGHS)
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And when we first met
Clare Bronfman, he said,
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"Rich! Rich! Rich! Rich! Rich!"
(LAUGHS)
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Clare paid for the research,
but it was Marc's idea
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to work with other
Tourette's people.
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- NANCY: Hello.
-(STUTTERS) Hi.
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NANCY: Hi, I'm Nancy. I'm Nancy.
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- Hey.
- It's nice to meet you.
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NANCY: When I started working
with people who had Tourette's,
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I never researched
much about Tourette's.
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And the reason was I didn't want
to prejudice myself.
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I had one 20-minute conversation
with Keith
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00:13:02,448 --> 00:13:04,867
about how I was gonna
work with people.
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And he said to me,
"You use every tool
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you have ever learned.
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Don't hold back."
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Do you have
any concerns about today?
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{\an8}Concerns?
245
00:13:17,087 --> 00:13:19,507
{\an8}Um... Well, I mean,
the other day I was thinking
246
00:13:19,507 --> 00:13:22,092
{\an8}that it, you know,
might not work.
247
00:13:22,092 --> 00:13:24,011
{\an8}- Is that your concern?
- Yeah.
248
00:13:24,011 --> 00:13:25,513
{\an8}- So--
- So you have...
249
00:13:27,473 --> 00:13:29,141
{\an8}(SNIFFLES) So...
250
00:13:30,434 --> 00:13:31,977
{\an8}I wanna see what the outcome is.
251
00:13:31,977 --> 00:13:35,356
{\an8}- Uh, I can try my hardest.
- The whole part of outcomes is
252
00:13:35,356 --> 00:13:36,941
{\an8}you can't figure out
what they are
253
00:13:36,941 --> 00:13:38,859
{\an8}until you go through
the process, right?
254
00:13:38,859 --> 00:13:40,027
{\an8}Right, yeah.
255
00:13:40,027 --> 00:13:41,403
{\an8}Okay, so you were thinking
it might not work...
256
00:13:41,403 --> 00:13:43,822
{\an8}NANCY: I work with
a number of different things,
257
00:13:43,822 --> 00:13:45,282
{\an8}but mainly beliefs.
258
00:13:46,450 --> 00:13:49,995
So I give them a belief
in the mind-body connection
259
00:13:49,995 --> 00:13:51,789
and what is actually possible.
260
00:13:52,915 --> 00:13:55,668
{\an8}I'm gonna do something, uh...
261
00:13:55,668 --> 00:13:58,128
{\an8}-(GRUNTS)
- ...like an exploration
with you.
262
00:13:58,128 --> 00:14:00,172
{\an8}It's called an exploration
of meaning.
263
00:14:00,172 --> 00:14:03,551
{\an8}So I'm going to ask you
what you mean by certain things
264
00:14:03,551 --> 00:14:04,760
{\an8}because a lot of times,
265
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,388
{\an8}if there's an inconsistency
in meaning,
266
00:14:07,388 --> 00:14:09,431
{\an8}- it causes...
-(SNIFFS)
267
00:14:09,431 --> 00:14:12,601
{\an8}...the issues that limit us.
268
00:14:12,601 --> 00:14:14,103
{\an8}So what I'm gonna do
is try to help...
269
00:14:14,103 --> 00:14:18,023
{\an8}NANCY: In ESP,
the thing that we did very well,
270
00:14:18,023 --> 00:14:21,944
was we could take a stimulus
and a response
271
00:14:21,944 --> 00:14:23,862
and disconnect them.
272
00:14:23,862 --> 00:14:28,284
Like, for instance,
have you ever had an experience
273
00:14:28,284 --> 00:14:32,997
of hearing a tone
in your mother's voice
274
00:14:32,997 --> 00:14:36,166
and knowing
that you were in trouble?
275
00:14:36,166 --> 00:14:40,045
And then whenever you hear
that tone in someone's voice,
276
00:14:40,921 --> 00:14:42,172
you go into a panic.
277
00:14:43,132 --> 00:14:46,135
If you can disconnect
the trigger,
278
00:14:46,135 --> 00:14:47,886
you know, to your issue,
279
00:14:47,886 --> 00:14:49,388
then you would not
do it anymore,
280
00:14:49,388 --> 00:14:51,515
and then you would forget
you ever did it.
281
00:14:51,515 --> 00:14:53,475
So the way
that I handled Tourette's was,
282
00:14:53,475 --> 00:14:57,146
I found out what--
what the impulse was
283
00:14:57,146 --> 00:15:00,024
and then I would disconnect
the stimulus and responses
284
00:15:00,024 --> 00:15:03,694
until, you know,
there was control.
285
00:15:03,694 --> 00:15:05,613
When you say,
"It feels like I need to blink,"
286
00:15:05,613 --> 00:15:07,197
- what do you mean?
- When...
287
00:15:09,783 --> 00:15:11,285
when my eyes get dry,
and I blink,
288
00:15:11,285 --> 00:15:13,078
it's not like
a different feeling than that.
289
00:15:13,078 --> 00:15:16,123
It's not?
But then sometimes you really...
290
00:15:16,123 --> 00:15:17,333
STUDY PARTICIPANT: Yeah.
291
00:15:17,333 --> 00:15:19,793
NANCY: Yeah.
How do you know when to do that?
292
00:15:24,757 --> 00:15:27,092
Now, you said
you had this feeling here.
293
00:15:27,092 --> 00:15:28,552
How does it feel now?
294
00:15:29,678 --> 00:15:34,016
It's... I can feel it,
but it's not as strong.
295
00:15:35,768 --> 00:15:39,813
There isn't the urge to tic--
There is, but...
296
00:15:41,607 --> 00:15:42,983
I can control it.
297
00:15:44,735 --> 00:15:46,487
Huh! I didn't even notice that.
298
00:15:47,905 --> 00:15:50,324
I still feel the urges but...
299
00:15:50,324 --> 00:15:53,535
- NANCY: Less so?
- Very much less.
300
00:15:53,535 --> 00:15:54,828
We can do more work.
301
00:15:54,828 --> 00:15:57,456
But that was very good
for today.
302
00:15:57,456 --> 00:15:58,791
- That's incredible.
-(NANCY LAUGHING)
303
00:15:58,791 --> 00:16:03,087
I really did not think
that was going to work at all.
304
00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:06,173
MARC: We have these
amazing results.
305
00:16:07,174 --> 00:16:08,842
But there's still
this feeling of,
306
00:16:08,842 --> 00:16:10,969
well, you guys
don't have any credentials.
307
00:16:10,969 --> 00:16:13,889
When conventional solutions
don't work,
308
00:16:13,889 --> 00:16:16,809
maybe the unconventional way
of thinking does.
309
00:16:16,809 --> 00:16:19,061
It is certainly
not double-blind tested.
310
00:16:19,061 --> 00:16:21,063
But the truth of the matter is,
311
00:16:21,063 --> 00:16:23,649
sometimes you want to go
to something that's unique.
312
00:16:25,818 --> 00:16:28,612
It was so tangible,
it was so palpable,
313
00:16:28,612 --> 00:16:29,697
these results.
314
00:16:29,697 --> 00:16:32,116
It's not a question of,
"Can we help people?"
315
00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:35,244
It's literally, we know that
when we give the green light
316
00:16:35,244 --> 00:16:38,330
to someone, you no longer
will be dealing with Tourette's.
317
00:16:43,335 --> 00:16:44,420
(EXHALES)
318
00:16:44,420 --> 00:16:46,588
I'm just trying to think
if we can just cut for this,
319
00:16:46,588 --> 00:16:47,798
I don't know if it's best if--
320
00:16:47,798 --> 00:16:51,385
I mean, I can talk--
I mean, Isabella is... um...
321
00:16:51,385 --> 00:16:53,262
I just think that, you know,
322
00:16:53,262 --> 00:16:55,055
the people that...
323
00:16:55,055 --> 00:16:58,225
uh, that we helped
with Tourette syndrome,
324
00:16:59,268 --> 00:17:00,519
you know, if they...
325
00:17:03,313 --> 00:17:05,816
you know, if they want to speak
publicly about, you know,
326
00:17:05,816 --> 00:17:09,111
their experience with us,
you know, that's up to them.
327
00:17:10,988 --> 00:17:16,243
-(TRAIN SQUEALING)
- ♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
328
00:17:16,243 --> 00:17:17,786
ISABELLA CONSTANTINO:
Some people thought
329
00:17:17,786 --> 00:17:20,622
the study would be
the saving grace of the company
330
00:17:20,622 --> 00:17:25,294
because it showed
this amazing transformation.
331
00:17:25,294 --> 00:17:30,132
Everyone in NXIVM is having
this much of an extreme change,
332
00:17:30,132 --> 00:17:32,217
but you can't see it physically.
333
00:17:33,385 --> 00:17:35,637
And I think this made it
much more obvious
334
00:17:35,637 --> 00:17:38,140
that they had profound tools.
335
00:17:42,060 --> 00:17:43,353
{\an8}-(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
- Oh!
336
00:17:43,353 --> 00:17:46,273
{\an8}My arms are just like this
every time.
337
00:17:46,273 --> 00:17:49,735
{\an8}Like I hit myself
and I have to punch myself.
338
00:17:50,778 --> 00:17:52,529
ISABELLA: Since I was
six or seven.
339
00:17:52,529 --> 00:17:54,490
It was just very hard
with Tourette's.
340
00:17:55,115 --> 00:17:56,408
(SCREAMS)
341
00:17:56,408 --> 00:17:59,828
ISABELLA: Partly because there
was a lot of OCD involved too.
342
00:17:59,828 --> 00:18:01,705
YOUNG ISABELLA:
Well, my OCD makes me
343
00:18:01,705 --> 00:18:04,416
toss a plate up and down,
even with food on it. (CHUCKLES)
344
00:18:04,416 --> 00:18:06,710
ISABELLA: Any urge
you could imagine.
345
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:08,128
Yelling, screaming,
346
00:18:08,128 --> 00:18:10,172
hitting myself,
hitting other things.
347
00:18:10,172 --> 00:18:12,090
(MUTTERS)
348
00:18:12,090 --> 00:18:15,511
{\an8}She has some of the worst tics
I've ever seen.
349
00:18:17,596 --> 00:18:19,973
If there's one thing
that I could give kids
350
00:18:19,973 --> 00:18:22,100
who have tics,
it would be resilience.
351
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:23,352
You know what that means?
352
00:18:23,352 --> 00:18:26,063
The ability to say, "Yeah,
you know, my tics are tough,
353
00:18:26,063 --> 00:18:28,023
but I'm not going to let them
stop me."
354
00:18:28,023 --> 00:18:29,149
I have that.
355
00:18:29,149 --> 00:18:32,444
You do have that,
I could tell that. (CHUCKLES)
356
00:18:32,444 --> 00:18:36,198
ISABELLA: Growing up in general,
I think I had a lot of hope.
357
00:18:36,198 --> 00:18:38,534
Honestly, I assumed
that I would wake up one day
358
00:18:38,534 --> 00:18:39,743
and it would just be gone.
359
00:18:39,743 --> 00:18:41,829
- You love me.
- MERRY CONSTANTINO: Thank you.
360
00:18:41,829 --> 00:18:44,915
- You really love me.
-(MERRY CHUCKLES)
361
00:18:44,915 --> 00:18:46,375
Thank you so much...
362
00:18:49,086 --> 00:18:51,421
ISABELLA:
Towards my last year of college,
363
00:18:51,421 --> 00:18:53,173
it started to get
very bad again.
364
00:18:54,132 --> 00:18:56,927
(GRUNTS)
365
00:18:56,927 --> 00:19:01,098
At that point, I think
we would have done anything.
366
00:19:02,808 --> 00:19:04,184
- NANCY: Hi.
- MERRY: Hi, Nancy.
367
00:19:04,184 --> 00:19:05,477
- NANCY: Hi, Nancy.
- ISABELLA: Isabella.
Nice to meet you.
368
00:19:05,477 --> 00:19:06,854
NANCY: Nice to meet you.
369
00:19:06,854 --> 00:19:09,398
- Do you have any fear?
-(CHUCKLES)
370
00:19:09,398 --> 00:19:10,941
- Not getting rid of it--
- About losing it?
371
00:19:10,941 --> 00:19:13,527
- No. That's all I ever wanted.
- No? Okay.
372
00:19:13,527 --> 00:19:14,695
Marc is the first person...
373
00:19:14,695 --> 00:19:16,446
ISABELLA: Nancy talked with me
and my mom,
374
00:19:16,446 --> 00:19:20,367
and then went downstairs
and we did our first EM.
375
00:19:20,367 --> 00:19:21,660
(INHALES)
376
00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:25,706
There's so much going on
that I can't do things
377
00:19:25,706 --> 00:19:27,791
and tic at the same time.
So when I can,
378
00:19:27,791 --> 00:19:29,710
I try to finish the tics,
and I sometimes,
379
00:19:29,710 --> 00:19:33,714
I try to tic and do the things
I need to for this job
380
00:19:33,714 --> 00:19:35,382
at the same time,
but it doesn't work.
381
00:19:35,382 --> 00:19:38,677
So I'll spend hours
trying to finish one tic
382
00:19:38,677 --> 00:19:41,054
that I started
three hours before.
383
00:19:41,054 --> 00:19:42,389
You have to finish the tic.
384
00:19:42,389 --> 00:19:44,683
Yeah, they don't just happen
for me...
385
00:19:44,683 --> 00:19:46,977
ISABELLA:
It was about day three,
386
00:19:46,977 --> 00:19:49,771
I had the initial
perceptual shift.
387
00:19:49,771 --> 00:19:52,858
And we looked back
to the first time I remember,
388
00:19:52,858 --> 00:19:54,109
like, really ticcing.
389
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:59,114
I was in third grade,
and I had to clear my throat.
390
00:19:59,865 --> 00:20:00,908
So I did.
391
00:20:00,908 --> 00:20:01,909
(YOUNG ISABELLA CLEARS THROAT)
392
00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:03,243
Then I kept having to clear it.
393
00:20:03,243 --> 00:20:05,412
(YOUNG ISABELLA CLEARING THROAT)
394
00:20:05,412 --> 00:20:07,164
ISABELLA: The awareness,
the shift was that...
395
00:20:07,164 --> 00:20:08,248
(ISABELLA CLEARING THROAT)
396
00:20:08,248 --> 00:20:10,208
..."What if I had that feeling
397
00:20:10,208 --> 00:20:12,628
and I chose
to respond that way?"
398
00:20:12,628 --> 00:20:14,880
Whereas someone else
may have had that feeling,
399
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,883
said, "Oh, that's a feeling."
And went about their day.
400
00:20:17,883 --> 00:20:19,760
(ISABELLA CLEARING THROAT)
401
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,095
What if bodies
are uncomfortable?
402
00:20:22,095 --> 00:20:23,639
And that's what I did.
403
00:20:23,639 --> 00:20:26,642
But what if
I didn't have to, though?
404
00:20:26,642 --> 00:20:29,311
It made Tourette's a...
405
00:20:33,023 --> 00:20:34,066
a choice.
406
00:20:35,525 --> 00:20:37,402
It just--
It had never occurred to me.
407
00:20:37,402 --> 00:20:39,780
It wasn't something
that I ever realized...
408
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,449
could have been...
409
00:20:44,534 --> 00:20:48,038
true. It's just, like,
it changed everything.
410
00:20:48,038 --> 00:20:52,000
I always felt that...
(CLEARS THROAT)
411
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,253
I always felt that my body
betrayed me when I was seven
412
00:20:55,253 --> 00:20:57,339
{\an8}and I never forgave it.
413
00:20:57,339 --> 00:20:59,800
{\an8}But I realized
it might have been my mind.
414
00:21:00,467 --> 00:21:03,011
{\an8}I feel more in charge.
415
00:21:03,011 --> 00:21:04,972
{\an8}And I still am feeling
the urges,
416
00:21:04,972 --> 00:21:07,641
{\an8}but they seem to be
less intense.
417
00:21:07,641 --> 00:21:10,185
{\an8}Yeah, and I talked with my dad
last night for like 20 minutes.
418
00:21:10,185 --> 00:21:12,270
{\an8}He called my mom, he said,
"It was really great
419
00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:14,231
{\an8}having such a fluid
conversation with her.
420
00:21:14,231 --> 00:21:16,483
{\an8}No freezing,
no stopping in the talking,
421
00:21:16,483 --> 00:21:19,027
{\an8}no... none of that." (CHUCKLES)
422
00:21:19,027 --> 00:21:22,364
{\an8}On a scale of one to ten,
my OCD was definitely...
423
00:21:23,490 --> 00:21:24,908
{\an8}ten.
424
00:21:24,908 --> 00:21:28,286
{\an8}Or 12. Not 11.
Even numbers. (LAUGHS)
425
00:21:28,286 --> 00:21:30,998
{\an8}Sorry. (LAUGHS) And now...
426
00:21:31,915 --> 00:21:34,167
{\an8}It's a, uh, maybe a one or two.
427
00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:36,336
{\an8}A lot better.
428
00:21:37,504 --> 00:21:38,714
{\an8}Probably a one.
429
00:21:38,714 --> 00:21:42,009
{\an8}'Cause, you know, it doesn't
need to be even. (CHUCKLES)
430
00:21:42,009 --> 00:21:44,428
{\an8}Once in a while,
I'll do another tic.
431
00:21:44,428 --> 00:21:49,141
{\an8}but not consistently enough
to say that I do those tics.
432
00:21:49,141 --> 00:21:51,727
{\an8}And I don't think
I would feel comfortable
433
00:21:51,727 --> 00:21:55,355
{\an8}telling anyone from now on
that I have Tourette's.
434
00:21:56,314 --> 00:21:59,693
{\an8}♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
435
00:22:03,530 --> 00:22:04,990
ISABELLA: I was super grateful
to Nancy.
436
00:22:04,990 --> 00:22:06,742
I was so happy.
437
00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:09,244
Like, it changed my life.
It did.
438
00:22:10,787 --> 00:22:13,290
Like, I'm always going to be
so grateful for that.
439
00:22:16,668 --> 00:22:19,087
I mean, that has nothing to do
with why I left.
440
00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:29,765
REPORTER 3: A secret group
stirring up controversy
441
00:22:29,765 --> 00:22:31,183
here in the Capitol Region.
442
00:22:31,183 --> 00:22:33,435
REPORTER 4: The report out today
says that some female members
443
00:22:33,435 --> 00:22:36,313
have been branded
with the founder's initials.
444
00:22:51,745 --> 00:22:52,829
(EXHALES)
445
00:22:55,165 --> 00:22:57,209
(PANTS)
446
00:22:57,209 --> 00:22:59,336
(FOOTSTEPS RECEDING)
447
00:23:04,049 --> 00:23:05,092
(KEYS JINGLING)
448
00:23:12,849 --> 00:23:16,311
ISABELLA: There are things
going on that are much more
449
00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:18,814
dangerous than I imagined.
450
00:23:20,690 --> 00:23:23,276
{\an8}Like I knew some shady things
were going on,
451
00:23:23,276 --> 00:23:25,112
but I also had justified it.
452
00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:34,204
{\an8}-(CARS HONKING)
-(POLICE SIREN WAILING)
453
00:23:34,204 --> 00:23:36,081
NANCY: (OVER VOICEMAIL)
Hey, Isabella, it's me, um,
454
00:23:36,081 --> 00:23:38,959
just checking in with you.
I wanted to see if you're okay,
455
00:23:38,959 --> 00:23:40,335
and when you're coming back?
456
00:23:40,335 --> 00:23:42,462
ISABELLA: Okay, so they actually
do sound worried.
457
00:23:42,921 --> 00:23:43,839
Fuck!
458
00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:45,215
NANCY: (OVER VOICEMAIL)
Hey, Isabella,
459
00:23:45,215 --> 00:23:46,341
we haven't heard from you,
460
00:23:46,341 --> 00:23:48,176
and Justin and Marc
were looking for you.
461
00:23:48,176 --> 00:23:50,303
So, getting a little worried
about you.
462
00:23:50,303 --> 00:23:51,805
And I didn't--
I didn't respond,
463
00:23:51,805 --> 00:23:53,557
and someone else
texted me something.
464
00:23:53,557 --> 00:23:54,850
"Hey, can you chat?"
465
00:23:57,519 --> 00:24:00,814
(VIDEO CALL RINGING)
466
00:24:00,814 --> 00:24:03,442
-(CALL CONNECTS)
- Hi, I'm sorry.
467
00:24:03,442 --> 00:24:04,943
It's been
a kind of a crazy week.
468
00:24:04,943 --> 00:24:06,319
{\an8}MARC: (OVER VIDEO CALL)
Sounds like.
469
00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:09,114
{\an8}I heard you ran out
in the middle of the night.
470
00:24:09,114 --> 00:24:13,785
{\an8}I got some information
that I didn't think was good.
471
00:24:15,745 --> 00:24:16,746
I didn't think--
472
00:24:18,081 --> 00:24:19,708
I'm just evaluating some things,
473
00:24:19,708 --> 00:24:23,378
and I didn't think Albany
was the best place to do it.
474
00:24:23,378 --> 00:24:25,380
MARC: Isabella,
who do you think-- what do you--
475
00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:27,507
Who do you think I am?
What do you think I do?
476
00:24:27,507 --> 00:24:30,635
I-- I love you, Marc,
I love you so much.
477
00:24:30,635 --> 00:24:32,262
It has nothing to do with--
478
00:24:32,262 --> 00:24:34,764
MARC: It has everything
to do with it, darling.
479
00:24:34,764 --> 00:24:36,224
(ISABELLA CHUCKLES)
480
00:24:36,224 --> 00:24:38,602
MARC: I don't know what--
What happened?
481
00:24:39,477 --> 00:24:40,562
I'm so sad.
482
00:24:40,562 --> 00:24:43,190
No, I'm sad, too.
I just-- I got information...
483
00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:44,691
MARC: I don't know what you...
484
00:24:44,691 --> 00:24:49,362
Some women decided to do a brand
as a way to fucking bond.
485
00:24:49,362 --> 00:24:50,697
No, no, no, no, no.
486
00:24:50,697 --> 00:24:52,866
- Women were told...
- MARC: Do you think--
487
00:24:52,866 --> 00:24:55,035
...that they were going
to get a tattoo,
488
00:24:55,035 --> 00:24:57,287
and it was not an informed...
489
00:24:58,455 --> 00:25:00,665
MARC: Okay,
what if that's not true?
490
00:25:01,291 --> 00:25:02,375
What if it is?
491
00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:06,296
MARC: If that was true, Isabella,
492
00:25:06,963 --> 00:25:09,758
that's called illegal.
493
00:25:10,717 --> 00:25:13,595
That's called assault.
494
00:25:13,595 --> 00:25:14,763
Yeah, I know.
495
00:25:14,763 --> 00:25:16,473
That's why
I don't think it's good.
496
00:25:16,473 --> 00:25:21,770
That's why I'm choosing to
not be in Albany right now.
497
00:25:21,770 --> 00:25:24,814
MARC: I don't think you
understand what you're doing.
498
00:25:24,814 --> 00:25:25,982
What am I doing?
499
00:25:27,317 --> 00:25:28,526
MARC: Believing people...
500
00:25:29,903 --> 00:25:32,864
that I don't think are being
very honest with you.
501
00:25:32,864 --> 00:25:34,241
And there's nothing I can do.
502
00:25:34,241 --> 00:25:36,201
Other than that
I just feel really sad.
503
00:25:36,952 --> 00:25:38,536
Marc, I'm really sad.
504
00:25:38,536 --> 00:25:39,871
(CELLPHONE VIBRATES)
505
00:25:39,871 --> 00:25:42,582
But it might be also helpful
to look at who you're believing
506
00:25:42,582 --> 00:25:44,459
that may not be honest with you.
507
00:25:44,459 --> 00:25:46,002
MARC: You know,
you have to decide
508
00:25:46,002 --> 00:25:47,921
who you want to trust.
509
00:25:47,921 --> 00:25:50,882
Nancy and myself, we were able
to do things for you
510
00:25:50,882 --> 00:25:53,969
that in your entire life
nobody could help you with.
511
00:25:53,969 --> 00:25:57,138
Now, you're just sitting there
saying that you can't trust me.
512
00:25:57,138 --> 00:25:59,474
Marc, I'm not saying
that I can't trust you.
513
00:25:59,474 --> 00:26:02,352
MARC: Yes, you are.
You're trusting people
514
00:26:02,352 --> 00:26:05,313
who are doing
destructive things.
515
00:26:05,313 --> 00:26:08,108
You realize this might affect
the Tourette's?
516
00:26:08,108 --> 00:26:10,443
My Tourette's?
Or yours or the study?
517
00:26:11,695 --> 00:26:13,446
MARC: Helping people
with Tourette.
518
00:26:14,823 --> 00:26:15,824
Well...
519
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,451
MARC: There's gonna be a day
520
00:26:18,451 --> 00:26:20,996
when you realize
this stuff isn't true, Isabella.
521
00:26:22,914 --> 00:26:25,292
Marc, I pray to God,
I wish it wasn't true.
522
00:26:25,292 --> 00:26:26,459
I really do.
523
00:26:27,919 --> 00:26:30,171
MARC: I'm telling you right now, Isabella.
524
00:26:31,589 --> 00:26:33,174
It's not true.
525
00:26:34,634 --> 00:26:37,345
I am going to keep helping
people get over Tourette's.
526
00:26:37,345 --> 00:26:40,140
You know we have
the best results in the world.
527
00:26:41,433 --> 00:26:44,269
I'm gonna hop off,
and it's not a personal offence,
528
00:26:44,269 --> 00:26:46,313
like, I don't mean it
to be that way.
529
00:26:46,313 --> 00:26:48,273
I care a lot about everyone.
530
00:26:48,273 --> 00:26:50,317
It has nothing to do
with the people.
531
00:26:50,317 --> 00:26:51,651
It's just-- It's not--
532
00:26:51,651 --> 00:26:54,029
Things haven't been
handled well, I don't think.
533
00:26:54,029 --> 00:26:55,739
- MARC: Okay, I'll see you.
- Bye, Marc.
534
00:26:55,739 --> 00:26:58,116
- MARC: Be well, Isabella.
- Love you.
535
00:26:58,116 --> 00:26:59,868
-(BUTTON CLICKS)
-(CALL DISCONNECTS)
536
00:26:59,868 --> 00:27:02,495
(CHUCKLES, SIGHS)
537
00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:08,960
(DOORBELL RINGING)
538
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,797
-(ISABELLA GASPS, EXCLAIMS)
-(VASCO CHEERS)
539
00:27:12,797 --> 00:27:15,050
{\an8}- ISABELLA: What?
- Mm.
540
00:27:18,219 --> 00:27:19,763
{\an8}Mm, it's so good to see you.
541
00:27:20,847 --> 00:27:22,140
I brought wine and Oreos.
542
00:27:22,140 --> 00:27:23,892
ISABELLA: You're the best
(LAUGHS)
543
00:27:23,892 --> 00:27:25,602
(VASCO LAUGHS)
544
00:27:25,602 --> 00:27:30,190
I've been getting calls
and like, Marc can intellect.
545
00:27:30,190 --> 00:27:33,109
Like, you know,
people can intellect things.
546
00:27:33,109 --> 00:27:35,528
- I've known Marc since 2004.
- ISABELLA: Yeah.
547
00:27:35,528 --> 00:27:37,238
I knew him when he had
full-blown Tourette's.
548
00:27:37,238 --> 00:27:39,949
Before I resigned, I was talking
to Marc, and I said, "Okay,
549
00:27:39,949 --> 00:27:42,410
under what circumstances
would you leave ESP?
550
00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:45,872
Well, what if Keith
was convicted of...
551
00:27:47,123 --> 00:27:48,792
embezzling money?"
552
00:27:48,792 --> 00:27:51,169
And he said,
"Let the courts decide that."
553
00:27:51,711 --> 00:27:53,046
I was like, "Okay,
554
00:27:53,046 --> 00:27:56,174
what if he was found
guilty of rape?"
555
00:27:57,842 --> 00:28:00,595
And he said, "I'm curing...
556
00:28:02,013 --> 00:28:03,014
Tourette's.
557
00:28:04,015 --> 00:28:06,393
I'm changing people's lives.
558
00:28:08,311 --> 00:28:09,854
I will never leave ESP."
559
00:28:10,855 --> 00:28:13,858
♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
560
00:28:18,655 --> 00:28:21,574
MARC: I just think
Keith's a pioneer.
561
00:28:21,574 --> 00:28:23,743
I think he has
an incredible mind
562
00:28:23,743 --> 00:28:26,538
and capacity to help people.
563
00:28:28,331 --> 00:28:30,417
A lot of times people will say,
"Well, Marc, you know,
564
00:28:30,417 --> 00:28:31,709
why don't you just go break off,
565
00:28:31,709 --> 00:28:33,294
and why don't you just go
do your own thing,
566
00:28:33,294 --> 00:28:35,797
and why don't you just go help
other people with Tourette's?"
567
00:28:35,797 --> 00:28:37,507
And it's just not that simple.
568
00:28:37,507 --> 00:28:42,679
Because of now how everything
is equated to being a sex cult,
569
00:28:42,679 --> 00:28:45,765
anything I do in the world
moving forward,
570
00:28:45,765 --> 00:28:47,142
they're going to attack me.
571
00:28:47,142 --> 00:28:51,104
Because I'm unwilling to disavow
my friend, Keith Raniere.
572
00:28:51,104 --> 00:28:53,148
I will always be a hated figure.
573
00:29:00,989 --> 00:29:02,323
{\an8}- MARC: Hey!
- Hi, how's it going?
574
00:29:02,323 --> 00:29:05,535
{\an8}I believe that that the only way
that I foresee at the moment
575
00:29:05,535 --> 00:29:07,996
to be able to help people
Tourette's in the future,
576
00:29:07,996 --> 00:29:10,623
is I have to expose
this injustice.
577
00:29:10,623 --> 00:29:13,084
AUTOMATED VOICE 1:
An inmate at a federal prison.
578
00:29:13,084 --> 00:29:14,419
AUTOMATED VOICE 2: Raniere.
579
00:29:14,419 --> 00:29:16,629
-(PHONE BEEPS)
- MARC: Hey, Keith.
580
00:29:18,548 --> 00:29:20,258
We're going to do
everything we can.
581
00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:24,471
-(BIRDS CHIRPING)
-(DOGS BARKING IN DISTANCE)
582
00:29:26,973 --> 00:29:29,893
{\an8}(VIDEO CALL RINGING)
583
00:29:29,893 --> 00:29:31,686
{\an8}-(CALL CONNECTS)
- NANCY: Hello.
584
00:29:31,686 --> 00:29:33,313
DIANE BENSCOTER:
(OVER VIDEO CALL) How are you?
585
00:29:33,313 --> 00:29:34,898
Good, how are you? I'm Nancy.
586
00:29:34,898 --> 00:29:37,025
DIANE: Hi, Nancy.
Pleasure to meet you.
587
00:29:37,025 --> 00:29:40,737
{\an8}NANCY: I'm really happy
that, um... that I'm...
588
00:29:40,737 --> 00:29:43,531
having an opportunity
to speak to you.
589
00:29:43,531 --> 00:29:47,035
My cat is--
Come here, Mouse. Come here.
590
00:29:47,035 --> 00:29:48,161
Your cat's name is Mouse?
591
00:29:48,161 --> 00:29:49,746
NANCY: Yes, wait.
You have to see him.
592
00:29:51,915 --> 00:29:53,416
(LAUGHS)
593
00:29:53,416 --> 00:29:56,377
- Hairless cat.
- Yes, he's really sweet.
594
00:29:56,377 --> 00:29:57,712
(MOUSE PURRS)
595
00:29:57,712 --> 00:30:00,965
I think he's trying to be here
with me during-- during this.
596
00:30:00,965 --> 00:30:03,343
DIANE: Have you had
any support at all?
597
00:30:03,343 --> 00:30:06,346
No, nothing,
no professional support.
598
00:30:06,346 --> 00:30:09,599
What's your perception right now
of what you went through?
599
00:30:10,225 --> 00:30:12,352
Um. Keith was...
600
00:30:12,352 --> 00:30:14,979
Well, in the beginning,
he was kind.
601
00:30:14,979 --> 00:30:19,108
But he got more and more
and more controlling
602
00:30:19,108 --> 00:30:20,235
as time went on.
603
00:30:20,235 --> 00:30:23,488
But I don't think
I ever thought about leaving.
604
00:30:23,488 --> 00:30:25,907
I-- I just thought...
605
00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:29,160
he was difficult.
606
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,704
I think it's important
for people to,
607
00:30:31,704 --> 00:30:34,541
when they look back
and deconstruct their--
608
00:30:34,541 --> 00:30:36,292
this experience,
609
00:30:36,292 --> 00:30:39,879
if you can think of like
your life in three identities.
610
00:30:40,672 --> 00:30:42,757
There's the identity before,
611
00:30:42,757 --> 00:30:45,677
where there was something
lacking in your life.
612
00:30:45,677 --> 00:30:50,181
So then identity number two
is you get almost intoxicated
613
00:30:50,181 --> 00:30:53,685
with this feeling, like,
"I found this great thing,"
614
00:30:53,685 --> 00:30:55,770
and you get
the whole camaraderie
615
00:30:55,770 --> 00:30:56,896
and the community
616
00:30:56,896 --> 00:30:58,815
and all of that
and it feels really good.
617
00:30:58,815 --> 00:31:03,152
And then when that world
crumbles like it has for you,
618
00:31:03,653 --> 00:31:05,405
who am I now?
619
00:31:05,405 --> 00:31:09,242
But you can get there by looking
at your first identity.
620
00:31:09,242 --> 00:31:13,663
And try to get at
why were you vulnerable
621
00:31:13,663 --> 00:31:15,915
to these kinds
of control tactics?
622
00:31:15,915 --> 00:31:18,876
♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
623
00:31:21,879 --> 00:31:26,342
(BIRDS CHIRPING)
624
00:31:26,342 --> 00:31:28,970
NANCY: When Keith
left the country,
625
00:31:28,970 --> 00:31:31,014
I started waking up
in the morning
626
00:31:31,014 --> 00:31:32,849
feeling peaceful.
627
00:31:35,852 --> 00:31:39,522
And I would think to myself,
"What is wrong with you?"
628
00:31:39,522 --> 00:31:42,650
You have this wonderful life
that he helped you create.
629
00:31:43,484 --> 00:31:45,778
Like, what is wrong with you?
630
00:31:45,778 --> 00:31:48,448
(CAMERA CREW CHATTING QUIETLY)
631
00:31:48,448 --> 00:31:49,616
(CLEARS THROAT)
632
00:31:52,035 --> 00:31:53,828
(COUGHS) Mic.
633
00:31:54,871 --> 00:31:57,874
So, I have someone who is...
634
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:00,752
in the external world,
635
00:32:00,752 --> 00:32:04,255
it would look like telling me
something I already know.
636
00:32:04,255 --> 00:32:06,257
{\an8}I can-- I can--
637
00:32:10,011 --> 00:32:11,846
{\an8}Um. In the future,
it might be good
638
00:32:11,846 --> 00:32:14,182
if I'm speaking, let me speak.
639
00:32:14,182 --> 00:32:16,934
{\an8}And then-- No, no.
And then say that afterwards.
640
00:32:17,810 --> 00:32:18,811
Um...
641
00:32:21,064 --> 00:32:22,899
In any situation, you can learn.
642
00:32:24,275 --> 00:32:25,652
NANCY: I was terrified of Keith.
643
00:32:25,652 --> 00:32:27,820
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
644
00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:30,365
NANCY: Whenever I was
in a meeting with other people,
645
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,660
he acted like I wasn't there.
646
00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:37,997
He would correct me
whenever I said anything.
647
00:32:39,415 --> 00:32:41,584
He purposely disempowered me.
648
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,630
So when he was around,
I never opened my mouth.
649
00:32:49,550 --> 00:32:52,220
But I always wanted
his approval.
650
00:32:56,557 --> 00:32:58,101
He got me into a...
651
00:32:59,644 --> 00:33:00,895
You know, like, a reenactment
652
00:33:00,895 --> 00:33:03,648
of trying to get approval
from my mother.
653
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,698
When I was six years old,
my teacher called a meeting
654
00:33:11,698 --> 00:33:15,702
and she told my mother
that I was dyslexic.
655
00:33:17,036 --> 00:33:20,248
And I thought it was something
I should be ashamed of.
656
00:33:23,126 --> 00:33:25,920
(SNIFFLES)
657
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,674
I didn't do well in school
in my early years and...
658
00:33:31,926 --> 00:33:33,136
(SNIFFLES)
659
00:33:34,804 --> 00:33:37,807
...my mom used to call me
her "little dummy."
660
00:33:38,558 --> 00:33:41,144
♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
661
00:33:41,144 --> 00:33:47,316
She used to say, "If they gave
As for people loving you,
662
00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:51,904
Nancy would get an A every time.
Everyone loves Nancy."
663
00:33:53,489 --> 00:33:54,657
(SNIFFLES)
664
00:33:56,367 --> 00:33:59,078
So I was always wanting
to do things
665
00:33:59,078 --> 00:34:01,289
that would make her
feel happy with me.
666
00:34:01,289 --> 00:34:05,376
And I grew up and I just
accommodated everybody
667
00:34:06,252 --> 00:34:08,588
because I wanted approval.
668
00:34:08,588 --> 00:34:10,131
- KEITH: Keep your...
- Yeah.
669
00:34:10,131 --> 00:34:11,591
- ...walkie-talkie.
- Yeah, yeah.
670
00:34:11,591 --> 00:34:13,634
NANCY: And I believe
that Keith knew
671
00:34:13,634 --> 00:34:14,969
that I always needed approval,
672
00:34:14,969 --> 00:34:17,805
and therefore he always
withheld approval.
673
00:34:17,805 --> 00:34:19,015
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
674
00:34:19,015 --> 00:34:20,475
NANCY: And the more
he withheld approval,
675
00:34:20,475 --> 00:34:22,059
the harder I worked.
676
00:34:22,059 --> 00:34:24,312
- Oh, you want me in it a little?
- CAMERAPERSON: Yeah. But not--
677
00:34:24,312 --> 00:34:25,855
But just not moving forward.
Okay, I'll do this.
678
00:34:25,855 --> 00:34:27,940
CAMERAPERSON:
At certain points you're
directly in front of Keith.
679
00:34:27,940 --> 00:34:29,692
If I didn't behave in the way
680
00:34:29,692 --> 00:34:31,611
he wanted me to behave,
681
00:34:31,611 --> 00:34:35,072
he would tell me
I was breaching my ethics
682
00:34:35,072 --> 00:34:37,241
and that I wasn't strong.
683
00:34:38,743 --> 00:34:42,163
I think that's how
Keith got me to do everything
684
00:34:42,163 --> 00:34:43,706
that he got me to do.
685
00:34:43,706 --> 00:34:47,418
Constantly made me feel like
nothing I did was good enough.
686
00:34:55,593 --> 00:34:59,889
{\an8}(OBJECTS CLATTERING)
687
00:34:59,889 --> 00:35:02,975
ISABELLA: I set this up
after I moved back home.
688
00:35:05,228 --> 00:35:08,147
All of the paintings I did
before ESP,
689
00:35:08,147 --> 00:35:13,361
I did in pure states
of creativity and curiosity.
690
00:35:16,739 --> 00:35:20,368
After I worked with Nancy,
I was working on these.
691
00:35:21,786 --> 00:35:24,997
I think that's around the time
I stopped finishing paintings.
692
00:35:26,874 --> 00:35:29,836
I haven't really painted
since 2015.
693
00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:33,840
NANCY: (OVER VIDEO)
Why do we teach you states?
694
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,216
What are we teaching you?
695
00:35:35,216 --> 00:35:37,552
Yeah, that you can control
anything, that you can--
696
00:35:37,552 --> 00:35:42,056
Anytime you feel not good,
that's a choice
697
00:35:42,056 --> 00:35:45,059
that you're pretending
you're not in control of.
698
00:35:45,059 --> 00:35:47,144
You're pretending
that you don't have a choice
699
00:35:47,144 --> 00:35:48,229
in that moment,
700
00:35:48,229 --> 00:35:50,439
or you're just enjoying
being miserable.
701
00:35:51,899 --> 00:35:53,943
NANCY: When I worked
with Nancy initially,
702
00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:57,196
I think I recognized choice
in a different way.
703
00:35:59,448 --> 00:36:02,076
You see that you can
literally do anything
704
00:36:02,076 --> 00:36:04,787
in ways that even just people
every day, I think,
705
00:36:04,787 --> 00:36:07,290
don't always recognize.
706
00:36:07,290 --> 00:36:12,587
Except that it becomes basically
like, how did you author this?
707
00:36:12,587 --> 00:36:13,963
How is this your fault?
708
00:36:15,631 --> 00:36:17,508
I've been doing
a lot of the contortions lately,
709
00:36:17,508 --> 00:36:20,052
and it's, I think,
really frustrating
710
00:36:20,052 --> 00:36:23,055
because I know I can stop...
711
00:36:24,348 --> 00:36:27,184
but it's hard.
712
00:36:27,184 --> 00:36:30,187
I was very ashamed
of everything about Tourette's
713
00:36:30,187 --> 00:36:33,941
because of how they attributed
it to your deficiencies
714
00:36:33,941 --> 00:36:35,985
and the things
you're failing at.
715
00:36:35,985 --> 00:36:37,778
We know what we should be,
716
00:36:37,778 --> 00:36:40,865
what we want to be,
the perfect us,
717
00:36:40,865 --> 00:36:45,244
versus the physiological values
of how we feel.
718
00:36:45,244 --> 00:36:47,330
If you go with your body,
719
00:36:47,330 --> 00:36:50,541
you breach
your ideological ethics.
720
00:36:50,541 --> 00:36:53,836
ISABELLA: I didn't want to tic
because I thought that was me
721
00:36:53,836 --> 00:36:55,796
being a terrible person.
722
00:36:56,756 --> 00:36:58,966
I've been...
(CLEARS THROAT QUIETLY)
723
00:36:58,966 --> 00:37:02,637
I don't know if more emotional
is the right way to say it.
724
00:37:02,637 --> 00:37:05,890
It's probably from coming off
of the meds.
725
00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:09,310
ISABELLA: I was being pressured
to go off of meds.
726
00:37:09,310 --> 00:37:11,771
I'd been on about
40 different meds
727
00:37:11,771 --> 00:37:13,481
since the time I was ten.
728
00:37:13,481 --> 00:37:16,108
The physical withdrawal,
I wouldn't wish on anyone.
729
00:37:16,108 --> 00:37:18,235
I've been having
a lot of anxiety.
730
00:37:19,403 --> 00:37:22,448
I can't eat or sleep.
(SNIFFLES)
731
00:37:22,448 --> 00:37:25,242
I just got off the phone
with Marc.
732
00:37:25,242 --> 00:37:28,579
He said it's good that my body
is doing all these things
733
00:37:28,579 --> 00:37:32,708
because I'm adj--
adjusting and changing.
734
00:37:32,708 --> 00:37:36,212
It doesn't feel good.
But it probably is.
735
00:37:37,755 --> 00:37:41,175
Once I stopped ticcing,
all of these other things
736
00:37:41,175 --> 00:37:42,927
started to manifest.
737
00:37:44,345 --> 00:37:46,263
My OCD got worse
738
00:37:46,263 --> 00:37:49,350
and I was struggling,
like, immensely.
739
00:37:49,350 --> 00:37:53,479
I would reach out to Nancy
or I would try to talk to Marc
740
00:37:53,479 --> 00:37:54,730
and everyone would say,
741
00:37:54,730 --> 00:37:56,649
"But why are you choosing
to do this?"
742
00:37:56,649 --> 00:37:58,484
♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
743
00:37:58,484 --> 00:38:01,821
ISABELLA: At one point,
Nancy brought me aside and goes,
744
00:38:01,821 --> 00:38:04,115
"You're just being
very attention seeking."
745
00:38:05,408 --> 00:38:08,494
I remember, she said that
and I was so scared.
746
00:38:08,494 --> 00:38:11,455
I didn't want
to be attention seeking.
747
00:38:11,455 --> 00:38:14,291
Like I didn't want
to be unethical.
748
00:38:15,334 --> 00:38:16,752
So I just withdrew.
749
00:38:21,298 --> 00:38:25,803
And so it's true
I stopped ticcing,
750
00:38:25,803 --> 00:38:28,472
but I became broken
in other ways.
751
00:38:41,694 --> 00:38:44,030
{\an8}MERRY:
Probably a year into NXIVM,
752
00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:48,492
we noticed her personality
changed dramatically.
753
00:38:49,744 --> 00:38:55,666
She became very controlled,
and she had lost her voice.
754
00:38:55,666 --> 00:38:57,918
You joining us, Belle,
or are you gonna--
755
00:38:57,918 --> 00:38:59,837
- I'm gonna stand.
- MERRY: You're gonna stand?
756
00:38:59,837 --> 00:39:01,213
Yeah.
757
00:39:01,213 --> 00:39:03,424
I actually do want to ask you
a question, but I don't want
758
00:39:03,424 --> 00:39:06,135
to have a conversation
like this, please.
759
00:39:06,135 --> 00:39:08,346
(BREATHES DEEPLY)
760
00:39:11,974 --> 00:39:15,603
So, during that study,
you would be angry.
761
00:39:15,603 --> 00:39:17,772
What was the anger about?
762
00:39:17,772 --> 00:39:20,483
Uh, the curriculum devalues you
763
00:39:20,483 --> 00:39:23,235
without making it obvious
that it's putting you down.
764
00:39:23,235 --> 00:39:26,989
Like, Marc suggested I take
a penance for still ticcing,
765
00:39:26,989 --> 00:39:28,532
and I was like,
"I don't want to do that."
766
00:39:28,532 --> 00:39:29,742
He was like,
"No, it's with love!"
767
00:39:29,742 --> 00:39:31,952
MERRY: What-- What's a penance?
What do you mean?
768
00:39:31,952 --> 00:39:34,371
ISABELLA: I don't know,
something like... (SIGHS)
769
00:39:35,456 --> 00:39:38,167
...to help hold you accountable
770
00:39:38,167 --> 00:39:40,544
for the thing that you say
you want to do.
771
00:39:40,544 --> 00:39:41,879
- If you're not doing it--
- But what--
772
00:39:41,879 --> 00:39:43,047
- GARY CONSTANTINO: What was--
- What did you--
773
00:39:43,047 --> 00:39:44,215
ISABELLA: Anything.
I don't know.
774
00:39:44,215 --> 00:39:45,633
People did different things.
They would...
775
00:39:45,633 --> 00:39:47,635
- GARY: Sweep the ground?
- MERRY: Physical? Mental?
776
00:39:47,635 --> 00:39:50,471
Anything. It could be anything.
It could be...
777
00:39:50,471 --> 00:39:52,306
- you know, if you're--
- GARY: Give me one of yours.
778
00:39:52,306 --> 00:39:53,808
Do you want me to tell you or...
779
00:39:53,808 --> 00:39:56,685
-(MERRY CHUCKLES)
- GARY: Give me
an example of what you did.
780
00:39:56,685 --> 00:39:58,562
Can we-- Can I? Okay.
781
00:39:58,562 --> 00:40:01,774
So, some people
would run a mile every day
782
00:40:01,774 --> 00:40:04,985
or some people would not,
you know, eat for a day.
783
00:40:04,985 --> 00:40:07,947
Is... I'm just curious.
784
00:40:07,947 --> 00:40:12,118
Is not being nice
simply trying to make you do
785
00:40:12,118 --> 00:40:13,744
what you don't want to do
at that moment?
786
00:40:13,744 --> 00:40:15,621
ISABELLA:
No, it's-- it doesn't matter
787
00:40:15,621 --> 00:40:16,956
what you want to do. It's...
788
00:40:18,207 --> 00:40:19,208
what they want to do.
789
00:40:19,208 --> 00:40:21,669
And then they say
it's what you want.
790
00:40:22,419 --> 00:40:24,380
And then they break you, like,
791
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:26,590
the harder you work,
the more you struggle.
792
00:40:26,590 --> 00:40:28,509
And that's how
they keep you in.
793
00:40:28,509 --> 00:40:30,177
GARY: Hmm.
794
00:40:30,177 --> 00:40:34,223
♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
795
00:40:43,274 --> 00:40:49,572
NANCY: What we found in ESP
was that many of us set goals
796
00:40:49,572 --> 00:40:51,073
but found it difficult
797
00:40:51,073 --> 00:40:54,577
because there wasn't
any consequence.
798
00:40:54,577 --> 00:40:58,455
Like, I had a woman
and she said to me,
799
00:40:58,455 --> 00:41:01,333
"I have a thing
where I-- I have two numbers.
800
00:41:01,333 --> 00:41:03,460
My numbers are eight and nine."
801
00:41:03,460 --> 00:41:04,962
And I said,
"And how does that limit you?"
802
00:41:04,962 --> 00:41:06,130
And she said,
803
00:41:06,130 --> 00:41:09,383
"Well, I'm always late
because I have to do things
804
00:41:09,383 --> 00:41:12,970
89 times or 98 times."
805
00:41:12,970 --> 00:41:15,055
So I disconnected
the stimulus response.
806
00:41:15,055 --> 00:41:17,641
And then I said to her,
"You're going to have to do
807
00:41:17,641 --> 00:41:22,062
something physical to break
the state in the moment."
808
00:41:22,062 --> 00:41:25,024
She said, "Like what?"
And I said, "Like, a plank."
809
00:41:26,317 --> 00:41:28,611
ANNOUNCER: Plank position,
as though you're about to plank.
810
00:41:28,611 --> 00:41:29,904
Nice, straight line.
811
00:41:29,904 --> 00:41:31,030
Come over here.
812
00:41:46,170 --> 00:41:48,422
NANCY: If you have
a very bad habit,
813
00:41:48,422 --> 00:41:51,592
there's no reason
to stop it, really.
814
00:41:51,592 --> 00:41:53,928
So you have to make it feel bad.
815
00:41:56,305 --> 00:41:58,474
The only way we change something
816
00:41:58,474 --> 00:42:00,559
is when change is easier
than not changing.
817
00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:02,728
And if you don't commit
to a consequence,
818
00:42:02,728 --> 00:42:05,231
you're never going
to break this habit.
819
00:42:09,693 --> 00:42:13,072
{\an8}(BIRDS CHIRPING)
820
00:42:15,157 --> 00:42:17,326
ANN CONSTANTINO:
That's what I do at the center.
821
00:42:19,787 --> 00:42:20,829
Okay?
822
00:42:25,542 --> 00:42:28,379
That's it.
Enough for the old lady.
823
00:42:28,379 --> 00:42:30,381
-(CHUCKLES)
-(LAUGHS)
824
00:42:30,381 --> 00:42:32,925
Well, she went--
Where was it that you went to?
825
00:42:32,925 --> 00:42:34,718
- Al-- Albany.
- Albany.
826
00:42:35,386 --> 00:42:36,887
That's-- she went there.
827
00:42:36,887 --> 00:42:40,683
And from when she went there
to when she came home...
828
00:42:40,683 --> 00:42:43,185
{\an8}God bless whoever did it.
829
00:42:44,103 --> 00:42:45,688
{\an8}All the saints in heaven.
830
00:42:45,688 --> 00:42:48,148
You got your health,
you got everything.
831
00:42:48,148 --> 00:42:50,943
You could have a million dollars
and not have your health,
832
00:42:50,943 --> 00:42:52,444
what good is it, right?
833
00:42:55,489 --> 00:42:56,490
Yep.
834
00:43:04,290 --> 00:43:05,791
(SMOOCHES)
835
00:43:05,791 --> 00:43:08,377
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
836
00:43:11,088 --> 00:43:13,090
ISABELLA: Do you remember
the first time I saw you
837
00:43:13,090 --> 00:43:15,759
when I came back
from the treatment?
838
00:43:15,759 --> 00:43:17,720
{\an8}Oh, I do remember
when you came home
839
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:19,722
{\an8}and we passed each other,
840
00:43:19,722 --> 00:43:22,224
and I waited for you to, like,
smack me a few times?
841
00:43:22,224 --> 00:43:24,018
If we brushed each other,
I'd have to do like, a routine.
842
00:43:24,018 --> 00:43:25,769
CHRISTINA CONSTANTINO:
You'd have to like-- yeah.
843
00:43:25,769 --> 00:43:27,605
So I just stood there,
like, waited for it,
844
00:43:27,605 --> 00:43:28,981
and I turned around,
845
00:43:28,981 --> 00:43:30,983
and you were-- you, like,
you kept walking.
846
00:43:30,983 --> 00:43:32,943
I was like, "Oh, cool."
(CHUCKLES)
847
00:43:32,943 --> 00:43:35,529
MERRY: I mean, there was a time
we couldn't touch her.
848
00:43:35,529 --> 00:43:36,655
Now?
849
00:43:37,573 --> 00:43:40,200
-(ALL CHUCKLE)
- That's my baby.
850
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,453
GARY: Just testing it,
are you, Mom?
851
00:43:42,453 --> 00:43:44,079
ANN: This is what
I can't understand,
852
00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:45,581
how they did it.
853
00:43:45,581 --> 00:43:46,749
ISABELLA: It was like,
854
00:43:46,749 --> 00:43:50,878
helping us understand
Tourette's differently.
855
00:43:52,087 --> 00:43:54,631
But like,
it was really difficult.
856
00:43:54,631 --> 00:43:58,719
And, you know, people would say,
"But you had Tourette's."
857
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,929
So there's--
That was always a good one.
858
00:44:00,929 --> 00:44:03,557
People want to--
"But you had Tourette's."
859
00:44:03,557 --> 00:44:06,352
- The key word here is "had."
- GARY: Yeah. Yep.
860
00:44:07,686 --> 00:44:10,397
(CHUCKLES) Yeah.
The positive is,
861
00:44:10,397 --> 00:44:13,734
your symptoms are diminished
or eliminated.
862
00:44:13,734 --> 00:44:16,904
You've built new skills
because of NXIVM.
863
00:44:16,904 --> 00:44:21,492
I believe they can make you
more productive, more efficient.
864
00:44:21,492 --> 00:44:22,701
And those are all positives
865
00:44:22,701 --> 00:44:24,578
and you did not have that
when you left here.
866
00:44:24,578 --> 00:44:27,206
CHRISTINA: You don't think
there are after-effects?
867
00:44:27,206 --> 00:44:28,457
GARY: Oh, I'm sure there are.
868
00:44:28,457 --> 00:44:32,294
But whatever happened there,
created this...
869
00:44:33,087 --> 00:44:34,922
effect on your sister.
870
00:44:34,922 --> 00:44:36,715
She was taking medications
to the point
871
00:44:36,715 --> 00:44:38,926
where we were frightened
for her longevity.
872
00:44:38,926 --> 00:44:41,345
No, I mean, I agree
with you guys completely.
873
00:44:41,345 --> 00:44:44,181
It's just, a lot of it was
when I came home,
874
00:44:44,181 --> 00:44:46,809
you guys didn't see
how hard it was.
875
00:44:46,809 --> 00:44:48,685
It was like, "Okay,
you need to get a job.
876
00:44:48,685 --> 00:44:49,853
You need to get going."
877
00:44:49,853 --> 00:44:52,398
It wasn't even, like,
how far I've come.
878
00:44:52,398 --> 00:44:54,608
It was like, "You're behind."
879
00:44:55,317 --> 00:44:57,403
Once again, like in ESP,
880
00:44:57,403 --> 00:45:00,239
I don't feel
a lot of choice here.
881
00:45:01,156 --> 00:45:02,908
GARY: Our experience has been
882
00:45:02,908 --> 00:45:04,910
that if we don't set expectations...
883
00:45:06,161 --> 00:45:07,287
nothing happens.
884
00:45:07,287 --> 00:45:12,835
You don't realize how much,
how much it's-- it's taken
885
00:45:12,835 --> 00:45:15,629
to get to this point.
I'm getting better,
886
00:45:15,629 --> 00:45:17,631
but I'm not
in a healthy space here.
887
00:45:17,631 --> 00:45:19,425
Yeah, I... this is...
888
00:45:19,425 --> 00:45:23,178
This is-- I'm gonna--
I'm gonna step away
889
00:45:23,178 --> 00:45:25,222
'cause I'm a little defensive
about it,
890
00:45:25,222 --> 00:45:26,306
'cause I'm really angry.
891
00:45:26,306 --> 00:45:27,933
- GARY: I think so. Yeah.
- ISABELLA: All right.
892
00:45:30,227 --> 00:45:31,687
GARY: I don't know
what's going on, Merr.
893
00:45:31,687 --> 00:45:34,815
- I just... don't know, Merr.
- Hmm.
894
00:45:36,817 --> 00:45:39,027
My approach to Keith
and the leadership
895
00:45:39,027 --> 00:45:42,614
and all the bad is,
that's bad.
896
00:45:42,614 --> 00:45:46,535
It doesn't change the reality.
She was able to do something
897
00:45:46,535 --> 00:45:49,997
simply because she began
to believe in herself to do it.
898
00:45:49,997 --> 00:45:52,916
And it is supportive people
who cared about her around her.
899
00:45:52,916 --> 00:45:55,794
I cannot believe
you can separate it...
900
00:45:57,463 --> 00:45:58,630
the way you are.
901
00:45:59,882 --> 00:46:01,800
No. No.
902
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,595
I-- I-- It makes me so angry...
903
00:46:04,595 --> 00:46:07,014
- Hmm.
- ...that people with power
904
00:46:07,014 --> 00:46:10,142
are taking, you know,
were taking advantage of...
905
00:46:10,976 --> 00:46:12,853
- of their knowledge...
-(INHALES)
906
00:46:12,853 --> 00:46:14,897
...and their position.
907
00:46:14,897 --> 00:46:18,317
I'm not condoning it.
What they did was duplicitous.
908
00:46:20,068 --> 00:46:21,653
But still there was good.
909
00:46:23,906 --> 00:46:25,574
And that good is real.
910
00:46:25,574 --> 00:46:28,952
♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
911
00:46:28,952 --> 00:46:32,164
{\an8}-(CAR HORNS BLARING)
-(SIREN WAILING)
912
00:46:38,879 --> 00:46:41,340
{\an8}MARC AGNIFILO:
People didn't stay in NXIVM
913
00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:44,384
or even in DOS
because they were coerced.
914
00:46:44,384 --> 00:46:46,970
They stayed in it
because they really thought
915
00:46:46,970 --> 00:46:50,182
they were making society
and the world better,
916
00:46:50,182 --> 00:46:53,143
you know, through these
very tangible things.
917
00:46:53,143 --> 00:46:56,188
The Tourette study
was just fascinating.
918
00:46:56,188 --> 00:46:58,607
Personal growth is hard
to measure.
919
00:46:58,607 --> 00:47:02,653
The Tourette's is measurable.
You know, you could see it.
920
00:47:02,653 --> 00:47:06,365
I think it really comes down to,
"Does this group do good?"
921
00:47:06,365 --> 00:47:09,284
And if it does,
and I think it does,
922
00:47:09,284 --> 00:47:12,204
I don't think a jury is going
to want the government
923
00:47:12,204 --> 00:47:13,413
to have destroyed it.
924
00:47:15,123 --> 00:47:18,085
{\an8}Oh, I-- I don't buy any of it.
925
00:47:18,085 --> 00:47:21,463
{\an8}There have been
studies showing that
cognitive behavioral therapy
926
00:47:21,463 --> 00:47:24,132
{\an8}can be very effective
in Tourette's.
927
00:47:25,717 --> 00:47:27,219
So there may have been techniques
928
00:47:27,219 --> 00:47:28,762
that Nancy Salzman
was able to use
929
00:47:28,762 --> 00:47:32,599
that did reduce some
small number of people's tics,
930
00:47:32,599 --> 00:47:34,726
but that had nothing to do
with Keith Raniere
931
00:47:34,726 --> 00:47:36,228
or NXIVM teachings.
932
00:47:38,522 --> 00:47:40,732
One of the things that made
NXIVM so dangerous
933
00:47:40,732 --> 00:47:43,902
was the way it would use some
legitimate psychological tools
934
00:47:43,902 --> 00:47:46,238
in a really manipulative,
coercive way.
935
00:47:49,616 --> 00:47:51,743
It's really sad
because some of the people
936
00:47:51,743 --> 00:47:53,996
who ended up
in this so-called study
937
00:47:53,996 --> 00:47:55,330
were so vulnerable,
938
00:47:55,330 --> 00:47:58,125
they were absolutely desperate
to deal with this serious,
939
00:47:58,125 --> 00:48:00,294
complicated disease.
940
00:48:00,294 --> 00:48:02,713
And they just ended up
being harmed further.
941
00:48:04,298 --> 00:48:08,093
There was all this pressure
on them to show improvement
942
00:48:08,093 --> 00:48:10,637
so that Keith and NXIVM
would look good.
943
00:48:12,556 --> 00:48:14,182
It's just completely unethical
944
00:48:14,182 --> 00:48:16,476
to experiment
on people this way.
945
00:48:21,398 --> 00:48:24,985
{\an8}(TRAIN BELL RINGING)
946
00:48:26,862 --> 00:48:28,363
ISABELLA: I told my parents
last night
947
00:48:28,363 --> 00:48:29,865
that I was coming here.
948
00:48:32,534 --> 00:48:35,287
Going to the trial, I think,
will be helpful
949
00:48:35,287 --> 00:48:38,457
just to process
and get a sense of closure.
950
00:48:47,591 --> 00:48:49,092
(CLEARS THROAT QUIETLY)
951
00:49:00,604 --> 00:49:02,564
MERRY: It's taken me
quite a while to understand
952
00:49:02,564 --> 00:49:06,026
that she's probably experienced
something like PTSD.
953
00:49:08,028 --> 00:49:09,237
The deal with the devil
954
00:49:09,237 --> 00:49:11,406
was going in
with our eyes wide open,
955
00:49:11,406 --> 00:49:14,201
knowing that
there was weird stuff going on
956
00:49:14,201 --> 00:49:15,577
in the background here.
957
00:49:16,578 --> 00:49:18,747
But we were willing to take...
958
00:49:20,082 --> 00:49:21,792
what could be a big risk...
959
00:49:23,210 --> 00:49:24,586
to get help for Isabella.
960
00:49:26,588 --> 00:49:29,383
And we believed
that she would be protected
961
00:49:29,383 --> 00:49:32,969
by someone like Nancy,
who had daughters herself.
962
00:49:33,971 --> 00:49:36,223
{\an8}♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
963
00:49:36,807 --> 00:49:38,517
{\an8}(DOOR OPENING)
964
00:49:39,726 --> 00:49:40,769
NANCY: Hello.
965
00:49:44,481 --> 00:49:46,858
MICHELLE SALZMAN:
She used to do these, like...
966
00:49:46,858 --> 00:49:49,236
{\an8}I'd come home from a party
or from whatever
967
00:49:49,236 --> 00:49:52,406
{\an8}and I'd have to wake her up to,
like, tell her that I was home,
968
00:49:52,406 --> 00:49:55,033
{\an8}and she'd like smell me...
(LAUGHS)
969
00:49:55,033 --> 00:49:58,036
...to see if I had been like,
you know, I assume smoking
970
00:49:58,036 --> 00:49:59,913
- or drinking or something.
- NANCY: Drinking.
971
00:49:59,913 --> 00:50:02,290
-(CHUCKLES) I'd go, "Come here."
- She'd go... (INHALES SHARPLY)
972
00:50:02,290 --> 00:50:03,333
(LAUGHS)
973
00:50:03,333 --> 00:50:05,544
Like, she'd wake up inhaling me.
974
00:50:05,544 --> 00:50:06,920
-(LAUGHS)
- MICHELLE SALZMAN: The--
975
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:08,880
There was one time
when Lauren and I
976
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,258
got really high
and we came home,
977
00:50:11,258 --> 00:50:15,053
- and Keith was over. (LAUGHS)
-(NANCY LAUGHS)
978
00:50:15,053 --> 00:50:17,347
- No! Really?
- MICHELLE: Yes.
979
00:50:17,347 --> 00:50:18,473
This is something that we...
980
00:50:18,473 --> 00:50:20,726
NANCY: Was this after
Lauren graduated?
981
00:50:20,726 --> 00:50:22,185
MICHELLE: Yeah, it was early.
982
00:50:22,185 --> 00:50:23,770
- It was super early.
- So it was when I first
met Keith, right.
983
00:50:23,770 --> 00:50:25,564
MICHELLE: I don't even know
if ESP started yet.
984
00:50:25,564 --> 00:50:27,149
No, it was probably that summer.
985
00:50:27,149 --> 00:50:29,234
But we kind of like,
my mom already started learning
986
00:50:29,234 --> 00:50:31,987
about parasitic strategies.
987
00:50:31,987 --> 00:50:35,365
And so, things that Lauren and I
were doing... (CHUCKLES)
988
00:50:35,365 --> 00:50:38,160
...she was like,
"You're just being a parasite."
989
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,079
We were like, "What the fuck
are you even talking about?"
990
00:50:41,079 --> 00:50:42,664
NANCY: (LAUGHS)
They were so mad at me.
991
00:50:42,664 --> 00:50:45,000
-(LAUGHS)
- Like, who is this person?
992
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,043
- What are you being taught?
- You guys were-- Lauren was--
993
00:50:47,043 --> 00:50:49,546
You were trying
to hold us accountable
994
00:50:49,546 --> 00:50:52,007
with these like new strategies
that you had.
995
00:50:52,007 --> 00:50:53,633
NANCY: You know,
I always wanted to be
996
00:50:53,633 --> 00:50:55,677
- a good mother.
- Of course.
997
00:50:55,677 --> 00:50:59,097
No, of course, which is why
we did all of this stuff.
998
00:50:59,097 --> 00:51:02,476
- Why we followed you anywhere.
- NANCY: Right.
999
00:51:07,522 --> 00:51:11,359
♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
1000
00:51:18,450 --> 00:51:20,243
{\an8}(OVER VOICEMAIL)
1001
00:51:47,437 --> 00:51:49,314
NANCY: How could someone
who created something
1002
00:51:49,314 --> 00:51:50,899
that was so beautiful,
1003
00:51:50,899 --> 00:51:52,943
do something
that was so terrible?
1004
00:51:56,112 --> 00:51:58,657
When I first hired my lawyer,
he said,
1005
00:51:58,657 --> 00:52:03,203
"Anybody who stands trial
with Keith will go to jail.
1006
00:52:04,162 --> 00:52:05,580
You have to plead guilty."
1007
00:52:06,832 --> 00:52:08,917
And then he said, "You have
to convince your daughter
1008
00:52:08,917 --> 00:52:10,502
to plead guilty too."
1009
00:52:13,338 --> 00:52:15,131
We tried to have
the case severed
1010
00:52:15,131 --> 00:52:19,678
so that the sex crimes
were on-- in one case
1011
00:52:19,678 --> 00:52:22,222
and the non-sex crimes
were in another case,
1012
00:52:22,222 --> 00:52:24,558
because they're
very different crimes.
1013
00:52:24,558 --> 00:52:27,227
But they made it an enterprise
and they said
1014
00:52:27,227 --> 00:52:28,770
they're not severing the case.
1015
00:52:30,063 --> 00:52:34,192
I think they arrested me
because they wanted to pit
1016
00:52:34,192 --> 00:52:35,819
Lauren and I against each other.
1017
00:52:39,281 --> 00:52:42,158
At that point, the only thing
we could do is plead guilty
1018
00:52:42,158 --> 00:52:47,247
because if I didn't plead guilty
and get Lauren to plead guilty,
1019
00:52:47,247 --> 00:52:49,958
she would have gone to jail
for ten or more years.
1020
00:52:52,919 --> 00:52:56,089
Lauren took a little while
to come to terms with it.
1021
00:52:57,966 --> 00:53:00,051
KEITH: The body can do
so much more
1022
00:53:00,051 --> 00:53:02,262
than the mind alone.
1023
00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:05,265
There's one drill that we do.
You wanna step up?
1024
00:53:05,265 --> 00:53:06,641
I mean, I think you've...
1025
00:53:06,641 --> 00:53:08,435
Follow my hands
with your hands, right?
1026
00:53:08,435 --> 00:53:11,479
Follow them exactly.
Pretty good.
1027
00:53:11,479 --> 00:53:13,565
- But you're thinking too much.
-(LAUREN CHUCKLES)
1028
00:53:13,565 --> 00:53:16,067
Now, if you do it with me,
uh, if-- if I don't--
1029
00:53:16,067 --> 00:53:18,069
- You-- you're not moving.
- Oh, you want me to do--
1030
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:19,738
Oh, I'm in the other position.
1031
00:53:22,574 --> 00:53:24,200
I mean, I'm not--
1032
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:25,994
- Oh!
-(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)
1033
00:53:25,994 --> 00:53:27,454
- My honey.
- LAUREN: Oh.
1034
00:53:27,454 --> 00:53:30,332
- But-- Are you okay?
- Yeah, just give me one sec.
1035
00:53:30,332 --> 00:53:31,499
Please hit me.
1036
00:53:31,499 --> 00:53:33,501
- No, I don't want to. (CHUCKLES)
-(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)
1037
00:53:33,501 --> 00:53:34,794
I'm s-- I'm sorry
1038
00:53:34,794 --> 00:53:37,130
- for the-- for the strike.
- LAUREN: It's okay. It's okay.
1039
00:53:37,130 --> 00:53:39,424
But if you learn to suspend
your mind,
1040
00:53:39,424 --> 00:53:41,092
then the body can do
all sorts of things
1041
00:53:41,092 --> 00:53:43,261
that you've never done before.
1042
00:53:43,261 --> 00:53:45,096
So I think
what you need to decide
1043
00:53:45,096 --> 00:53:47,474
is what do you really want
1044
00:53:47,474 --> 00:53:49,309
and how much
are you willing to devote
1045
00:53:49,309 --> 00:53:50,685
to being a master at it?
1046
00:53:53,396 --> 00:53:55,523
NANCY: She just loved him
and she wanted to believe
1047
00:53:55,523 --> 00:53:57,651
that it wasn't what it was.
1048
00:53:58,526 --> 00:53:59,569
Are you okay?
1049
00:53:59,569 --> 00:54:00,946
- LAUREN: Yeah.
- Yeah. Okay.
1050
00:54:03,698 --> 00:54:05,283
It was very difficult for her,
1051
00:54:05,283 --> 00:54:08,578
and what she did was very,
very difficult for her,
1052
00:54:08,578 --> 00:54:11,373
and she was the only one
who could do it.
1053
00:54:13,541 --> 00:54:16,503
Testify about the sorority.
1054
00:54:16,503 --> 00:54:18,630
♪ (SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
1055
00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:20,715
NANCY: Lauren gave them
more information
1056
00:54:20,715 --> 00:54:22,634
than they knew existed.
1057
00:54:23,885 --> 00:54:25,428
She really turned the case.
1058
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:29,516
REPORTER 5:
The second weekend,
1059
00:54:29,516 --> 00:54:31,476
the federal NXIVM trial
wraps up in Brooklyn
1060
00:54:31,476 --> 00:54:33,561
with Lauren Salzman
on the stand.
1061
00:54:33,561 --> 00:54:35,188
REPORTER 6:
Lauren Salzman held
1062
00:54:35,188 --> 00:54:36,940
several high-ranking positions
1063
00:54:36,940 --> 00:54:39,734
and acted as times
as a recruiter, teacher,
1064
00:54:39,734 --> 00:54:41,695
and a DOS master.
1065
00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:43,530
Salzman is the first
co-conspirator
1066
00:54:43,530 --> 00:54:46,324
to testify
against Keith Raniere.
1067
00:54:46,324 --> 00:54:48,702
REPORTER 7: We will be keeping
our eye on what could turn out
1068
00:54:48,702 --> 00:54:51,663
to be a very pivotal day
in the case.
1069
00:54:51,663 --> 00:54:54,040
(GAVEL BANGS)
1070
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,500
JUDGE GARAUFIS:
The government may call
1071
00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:57,752
its next witness to the stand.
1072
00:54:57,752 --> 00:54:59,045
TANYA HAJJAR:
The government calls
1073
00:54:59,045 --> 00:55:00,547
Lauren Salzman to the stand.
1074
00:55:01,256 --> 00:55:03,967
(FOOTSTEPS)
1075
00:55:03,967 --> 00:55:05,385
TANYA: Good morning,
Ms. Salzman.
1076
00:55:06,177 --> 00:55:07,303
Good morning.
1077
00:55:08,596 --> 00:55:10,849
How long were you
a part of NXIVM?
1078
00:55:13,935 --> 00:55:15,687
LAUREN: Almost 20 years.
1079
00:55:15,687 --> 00:55:18,523
TANYA: Who first approached you
about DOS?
1080
00:55:18,523 --> 00:55:20,734
LAUREN:
Keith first approached me.
1081
00:55:20,734 --> 00:55:23,695
He said that he wanted
to make our relationship closer.
1082
00:55:23,695 --> 00:55:25,989
Let me into your space.
1083
00:55:25,989 --> 00:55:27,699
And he asked me
what I was willing to do
1084
00:55:27,699 --> 00:55:30,744
for my growth
and for my commitment to him.
1085
00:55:31,953 --> 00:55:33,121
TANYA: What did you say?
1086
00:55:35,081 --> 00:55:36,166
LAUREN: Anything.
1087
00:55:38,501 --> 00:55:39,627
Anything.
1088
00:55:39,627 --> 00:55:42,797
♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC CONCLUDES) ♪
1089
00:55:46,176 --> 00:55:50,847
♪ ("PIANO IN THE SKY"
BY WINONA OAK PLAYING) ♪
1090
00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:58,021
♪ There's a piano in the sky ♪
1091
00:55:58,021 --> 00:56:02,025
♪ I hear it playing
All the time ♪
1092
00:56:03,526 --> 00:56:07,238
♪ There's a rope
I'm holding tight ♪
1093
00:56:08,323 --> 00:56:12,786
♪ I dream of falling
Every night ♪
1094
00:56:12,786 --> 00:56:16,623
♪ I'm tired of thinking
That I don't deserve you ♪
1095
00:56:17,999 --> 00:56:22,796
♪ I'm dreading the day
When you let me go ♪
1096
00:56:22,796 --> 00:56:27,133
♪ So take all this love
From me ♪
1097
00:56:27,133 --> 00:56:32,514
♪ I don't want to feel anymore ♪
1098
00:56:32,514 --> 00:56:37,143
♪ Just take this heart of me ♪
1099
00:56:37,143 --> 00:56:39,813
♪ You had every part of me ♪
1100
00:56:39,813 --> 00:56:43,942
♪ I'll be fine, I promise ♪
1101
00:56:43,942 --> 00:56:50,281
♪ Don't say, don't say
Don't say, don't say ♪
1102
00:56:50,281 --> 00:56:54,244
♪ There's a way
To live without me, baby ♪
1103
00:56:54,244 --> 00:56:59,791
♪ Too late, too late
It's all too late ♪
1104
00:56:59,791 --> 00:57:05,004
♪ So I'll stay till we break ♪
1105
00:57:05,004 --> 00:57:08,925
♪ ("PIANO IN THE SKY"
CONCLUDES) ♪