(VIDEO CASSETTE CLATTERING)
(STATIC)
Keith Raniere has done something that has never been
documented before in the history of psychology
or any of the information on human potential.
He has quantified the structure of emotions,
the nature of emotions,
and how human beings either limit
or empower themselves, with their emotions.
(STATIC)
NANCY SALZMAN: In ESP,
we taught something called "state control."
A series of events happen, we make a meaning,
and based on that meaning, we have an emotional reaction,
which means we're choosing the emotional reaction
based on the meaning.
Right? We may not be aware we're choosing it,
but we are actually choosing it.
And we do exercises with people so that they begin to gain
a feeling of control over those choices.
So, if something happens,
and I have an impulse to be angry,
I can act on that impulse and yell at you
and scream at you,
or I can have the impulse and choose not to indulge it.
So I can choose to bring up a state.
I can be sitting here like this right now and I can say,
"I am so mad, I can't stand it! This is not acceptable to me!"
Or not.
♪ (EERIE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
♪ ("DREAM STATE" FT. BONNIE PIESSE BY SON LUX PLAYING) ♪
♪ Days we were young ♪
♪ We took photographs Of everything we could see ♪
♪ We had to run from it ♪
♪ Priest and prophetess We were nothing we would defy ♪
♪ Oh ♪
♪ Invisible skin Where is the world within? ♪
♪ Invincible skin It's how we all begin ♪
♪ ("DREAM STATE" CONCLUDES) ♪
♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
(BIRDS CHIRPING)
REPORTER 1: The trial against alleged cult leader,
Keith Raniere, entering its second week today.
REPORTER 2: Raniere is facing a number of charges,
including sex trafficking and racketeering.
NANCY: Uh, you know, it's hard to process this.
I think it takes a long time, and I haven't had therapy.
I have thought that it would give me a way
of just talking it all through.
(OBJECTS CLATTERING)
These are all Keith.
He didn't want us to throw away anything he ever wrote.
When we were creating the intensive...
he would draw these on the floor of my house.
"A causes B in the past, event B, event A.
Uh, the future.
So we have nothing to do with past events."
I don't know what he was trying to say,
but we laminated it.
Twenty years is right here. Twenty years of curriculum.
KEITH RANIERE: If you represent this as you...
would you say
that there is what we'll call "optimal you"?
Or optimal...
NANCY: The idea was that he had this very special skill
to create behavior change.
It wasn't a science,
but he wanted to make it a science.
So it had to be reproducible,
verifiable, consistent, and measurable.
By the way, I am doing this completely extemporaneously.
I'm imagining... (LAUGHS)
NANCY: But it wasn't like he had the technology done.
He had an idea.
And then he had a bunch of concepts.
And he started teaching me parts of it.
This is Keith and Nancy, and it's 6:02 am.
KEITH: So, tell me, what is responsibility?
NANCY: Okay, uh, responsibility is--
KEITH: This is pretty simple and easy.
NANCY: Yeah, it's-- it's the causes and the effects.
Uh, your-- your participation in the causes and the effects.
Yeah. So that's some-- something you can affect.
- NANCY: Mm-hmm. -(PEN SCRATCHING)
NANCY: He thought we were only going to need 20 modules.
I wrote 2000 modules by the time ESP was done.
They were Keith's concepts, and I codified them.
When I was first starting out in my professional career,
I began to really think about this thing,
the mind-body connection.
The more I learned, the more I realized that I didn't know.
NANCY: I was always fascinated by how much we could do
using our mind over our body.
Did you ever hear a story about a 110-pound woman
who picked up a 4000-pound car
because she thought her baby was underneath it?
Human beings have incredible resources
and we can produce unprecedented results
under the right set of circumstances.
NANCY: I always wanted to know what the limits
of our model was.
I wanted to work with chronic pain.
I wanted to work with eating dis--
I wanted to work with a number of things.
Keith, he said before we work with people with disorders,
I want us to work with healthy people
who just want to change patterns of behavior
that limit them.
But people would come who would have certain disorders
and they would say, "Will this help this?"
(GRUNTS)
NANCY: And then Marc Elliot showed up.
(GRUNTS)
MARC ELLIOT: I started ticcing when I was five years old.
Started with eye blinking.
In high school, my Tourette's got way worse.
The way that I would describe it is that there's an itch
and there's a scratch.
So Tourette syndrome, in my opinion,
is that very uncomfortable itch.
(GRUNTS) I won't tic.
MARC: And then the tic
is actually someone scratching that itch.
It's not like I'm possessed by the devil,
and-- and... (GRUNTS)
...something's moving my mouth. I was moving it.
It's just very hard not to scratch it.
MARC: I tried all sorts of different treatments.
I tried neuroleptic drugs,
like very serious anti-psychotic drugs
which the side effects of, I mean, you're so lethargic,
you're so sleepy,
it's almost like you're a zombie.
And it finally got to the point that I decided,
forget medication, I'm just gonna live my life.
(MARC GRUNTS, CLACKS TEETH)
MARC: I wasn't waiting for the cure.
In fact, it was the direct opposite.
(MARC GRUNTS)
Because I can't stop this.
The best path for me to have a better life,
is to then get the whole world to accept me.
(GRUNTS)
I have Tourette's by the way,
just gonna throw that out there, okay?
People look at me and make a lot of assumptions
about who I am as a person.
MARC: I was 24 years old,
speaking about compassion and tolerance.
It was a dream come true externally.
But internally, the thing that I didn't have was peace.
And then I learned about ESP.
And this is what's most important.
I did not go for Tourette's.
It wasn't even an iota of a thought in my mind
about somehow this training could affect my Tourette's.
- NANCY: Hey, everybody. - LEADER 1: Stay standing.
- LEADER 2: Hello. - NANCY: How are you all?
MARC: Nancy comes in and she picks me to be the demo
of the fear sourcing.
A fear sourcing is going back to the root of your fear.
You had an experience at some time,
and you didn't know how to make sense of it,
and you became fearful.
MARC: You have to think about
what fear do you want to work on.
And I don't know why, but I decided
that maybe I'm afraid of losing Tourette's.
Six days earlier, if you would have come up to me
and said like, "Hey, you know,
you might be afraid of losing Tourette's,"
I literally would've punched you or said, "Fuck you."
But we explored the fear,
and it wasn't that I was afraid of losing Tourette's,
I was just afraid of not being special anymore.
I just had such a fundamental shift of--
I'm not seeing myself as a victim to this thing.
What if you could figure out what's causing the itch?
Which is a completely different paradigm.
The more that you can really get to the root of that,
what I found was, my itch started to go down.
I remember being in a train station...
and I walk into the middle and I just stood there.
I literally was like everyone else.
And I had never had that in my entire life.
HOST: Now is the moment where we introduce
an amazing man.
He has inspired thousands of people. Marc Elliot!
-(AUDIENCE CHEERING, APPLAUDING) - Whoo!
Thank you!
Living with Tourette syndrome,
I really had the chance to see what is it like
to be so different than everyone else.
But in 2010, I met an American scientist
and philosopher, his name is Keith Raniere,
and he actually created the courses
that provided the tools
that helped me beat my Tourette's.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING, APPLAUDING)
MARC: Nothing like this has ever been done
in history that I know of.
And now I've been like this,
um, for about the last four years.
You know, that's why I'm-- I'm so grateful
to Keith and to Nancy and to NXIVM.
It's not because I'm-- I'm some--
I had this indoctrination. I've had a horrible 20 years.
You know, what do you--
How do you feel towards the person
that literally gave you an opportunity and the tools
to craft an existence that you couldn't even dream of?
♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
(METAL CLATTERING)
(CLATTERS, BEEPS)
NANCY: When I did the Tourette's work,
I think I may have learned more than anything else I did.
So, this is Marc, and Marc's volunteered
to demonstrate anger for us today.
So this is what I'm going to ask you to do.
NANCY: When Marc first came to ESP,
I studied him the whole week.
(CHUCKLES)
He would think in his mind,
"What is the worst possible thing
that I could say?"
So, like, when he first met me,
he said, "Bitch! Bitch! Bitch! Bitch! Bitch!" (LAUGHS)
And when we first met Clare Bronfman, he said,
"Rich! Rich! Rich! Rich! Rich!" (LAUGHS)
Clare paid for the research, but it was Marc's idea
to work with other Tourette's people.
- NANCY: Hello. -(STUTTERS) Hi.
NANCY: Hi, I'm Nancy. I'm Nancy.
- Hey. - It's nice to meet you.
NANCY: When I started working with people who had Tourette's,
I never researched much about Tourette's.
And the reason was I didn't want to prejudice myself.
I had one 20-minute conversation with Keith
about how I was gonna work with people.
And he said to me, "You use every tool
you have ever learned.
Don't hold back."
Do you have any concerns about today?
Concerns?
Um... Well, I mean, the other day I was thinking
that it, you know, might not work.
- Is that your concern? - Yeah.
- So-- - So you have...
(SNIFFLES) So...
I wanna see what the outcome is.
- Uh, I can try my hardest. - The whole part of outcomes is
you can't figure out what they are
until you go through the process, right?
Right, yeah.
Okay, so you were thinking it might not work...
NANCY: I work with a number of different things,
but mainly beliefs.
So I give them a belief in the mind-body connection
and what is actually possible.
I'm gonna do something, uh...
-(GRUNTS) - ...like an exploration with you.
It's called an exploration of meaning.
So I'm going to ask you what you mean by certain things
because a lot of times,
if there's an inconsistency in meaning,
- it causes... -(SNIFFS)
...the issues that limit us.
So what I'm gonna do is try to help...
NANCY: In ESP, the thing that we did very well,
was we could take a stimulus and a response
and disconnect them.
Like, for instance, have you ever had an experience
of hearing a tone in your mother's voice
and knowing that you were in trouble?
And then whenever you hear that tone in someone's voice,
you go into a panic.
If you can disconnect the trigger,
you know, to your issue,
then you would not do it anymore,
and then you would forget you ever did it.
So the way that I handled Tourette's was,
I found out what-- what the impulse was
and then I would disconnect the stimulus and responses
until, you know, there was control.
When you say, "It feels like I need to blink,"
- what do you mean? - When...
when my eyes get dry, and I blink,
it's not like a different feeling than that.
It's not? But then sometimes you really...
STUDY PARTICIPANT: Yeah.
NANCY: Yeah. How do you know when to do that?
Now, you said you had this feeling here.
How does it feel now?
It's... I can feel it, but it's not as strong.
There isn't the urge to tic-- There is, but...
I can control it.
Huh! I didn't even notice that.
I still feel the urges but...
- NANCY: Less so? - Very much less.
We can do more work.
But that was very good for today.
- That's incredible. -(NANCY LAUGHING)
I really did not think that was going to work at all.
MARC: We have these amazing results.
But there's still this feeling of,
well, you guys don't have any credentials.
When conventional solutions don't work,
maybe the unconventional way of thinking does.
It is certainly not double-blind tested.
But the truth of the matter is,
sometimes you want to go to something that's unique.
It was so tangible, it was so palpable,
these results.
It's not a question of, "Can we help people?"
It's literally, we know that when we give the green light
to someone, you no longer will be dealing with Tourette's.
(EXHALES)
I'm just trying to think if we can just cut for this,
I don't know if it's best if--
I mean, I can talk-- I mean, Isabella is... um...
I just think that, you know,
the people that...
uh, that we helped with Tourette syndrome,
you know, if they...
you know, if they want to speak publicly about, you know,
their experience with us, you know, that's up to them.
-(TRAIN SQUEALING) - ♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
ISABELLA CONSTANTINO: Some people thought
the study would be the saving grace of the company
because it showed this amazing transformation.
Everyone in NXIVM is having this much of an extreme change,
but you can't see it physically.
And I think this made it much more obvious
that they had profound tools.
-(INDISTINCT CHATTER) - Oh!
My arms are just like this every time.
Like I hit myself and I have to punch myself.
ISABELLA: Since I was six or seven.
It was just very hard with Tourette's.
(SCREAMS)
ISABELLA: Partly because there was a lot of OCD involved too.
YOUNG ISABELLA: Well, my OCD makes me
toss a plate up and down, even with food on it. (CHUCKLES)
ISABELLA: Any urge you could imagine.
Yelling, screaming,
hitting myself, hitting other things.
(MUTTERS)
She has some of the worst tics I've ever seen.
If there's one thing that I could give kids
who have tics, it would be resilience.
You know what that means?
The ability to say, "Yeah, you know, my tics are tough,
but I'm not going to let them stop me."
I have that.
You do have that, I could tell that. (CHUCKLES)
ISABELLA: Growing up in general, I think I had a lot of hope.
Honestly, I assumed that I would wake up one day
and it would just be gone.
- You love me. - MERRY CONSTANTINO: Thank you.
- You really love me. -(MERRY CHUCKLES)
Thank you so much...
ISABELLA: Towards my last year of college,
it started to get very bad again.
(GRUNTS)
At that point, I think we would have done anything.
- NANCY: Hi. - MERRY: Hi, Nancy.
- NANCY: Hi, Nancy. - ISABELLA: Isabella. Nice to meet you.
NANCY: Nice to meet you.
- Do you have any fear? -(CHUCKLES)
- Not getting rid of it-- - About losing it?
- No. That's all I ever wanted. - No? Okay.
Marc is the first person...
ISABELLA: Nancy talked with me and my mom,
and then went downstairs and we did our first EM.
(INHALES)
There's so much going on that I can't do things
and tic at the same time. So when I can,
I try to finish the tics, and I sometimes,
I try to tic and do the things I need to for this job
at the same time, but it doesn't work.
So I'll spend hours trying to finish one tic
that I started three hours before.
You have to finish the tic.
Yeah, they don't just happen for me...
ISABELLA: It was about day three,
I had the initial perceptual shift.
And we looked back to the first time I remember,
like, really ticcing.
I was in third grade, and I had to clear my throat.
So I did.
(YOUNG ISABELLA CLEARS THROAT)
Then I kept having to clear it.
(YOUNG ISABELLA CLEARING THROAT)
ISABELLA: The awareness, the shift was that...
(ISABELLA CLEARING THROAT)
..."What if I had that feeling
and I chose to respond that way?"
Whereas someone else may have had that feeling,
said, "Oh, that's a feeling." And went about their day.
(ISABELLA CLEARING THROAT)
What if bodies are uncomfortable?
And that's what I did.
But what if I didn't have to, though?
It made Tourette's a...
a choice.
It just-- It had never occurred to me.
It wasn't something that I ever realized...
could have been...
true. It's just, like, it changed everything.
I always felt that... (CLEARS THROAT)
I always felt that my body betrayed me when I was seven
and I never forgave it.
But I realized it might have been my mind.
I feel more in charge.
And I still am feeling the urges,
but they seem to be less intense.
Yeah, and I talked with my dad last night for like 20 minutes.
He called my mom, he said, "It was really great
having such a fluid conversation with her.
No freezing, no stopping in the talking,
no... none of that." (CHUCKLES)
On a scale of one to ten, my OCD was definitely...
ten.
Or 12. Not 11. Even numbers. (LAUGHS)
Sorry. (LAUGHS) And now...
It's a, uh, maybe a one or two.
A lot better.
Probably a one.
'Cause, you know, it doesn't need to be even. (CHUCKLES)
Once in a while, I'll do another tic.
but not consistently enough to say that I do those tics.
And I don't think I would feel comfortable
telling anyone from now on that I have Tourette's.
♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
ISABELLA: I was super grateful to Nancy.
I was so happy.
Like, it changed my life. It did.
Like, I'm always going to be so grateful for that.
I mean, that has nothing to do with why I left.
REPORTER 3: A secret group stirring up controversy
here in the Capitol Region.
REPORTER 4: The report out today says that some female members
have been branded with the founder's initials.
(EXHALES)
(PANTS)
(FOOTSTEPS RECEDING)
(KEYS JINGLING)
ISABELLA: There are things going on that are much more
dangerous than I imagined.
Like I knew some shady things were going on,
but I also had justified it.
-(CARS HONKING) -(POLICE SIREN WAILING)
NANCY: (OVER VOICEMAIL) Hey, Isabella, it's me, um,
just checking in with you. I wanted to see if you're okay,
and when you're coming back?
ISABELLA: Okay, so they actually do sound worried.
Fuck!
NANCY: (OVER VOICEMAIL) Hey, Isabella,
we haven't heard from you,
and Justin and Marc were looking for you.
So, getting a little worried about you.
And I didn't-- I didn't respond,
and someone else texted me something.
"Hey, can you chat?"
(VIDEO CALL RINGING)
-(CALL CONNECTS) - Hi, I'm sorry.
It's been a kind of a crazy week.
MARC: (OVER VIDEO CALL) Sounds like.
I heard you ran out in the middle of the night.
I got some information that I didn't think was good.
I didn't think--
I'm just evaluating some things,
and I didn't think Albany was the best place to do it.
MARC: Isabella, who do you think-- what do you--
Who do you think I am? What do you think I do?
I-- I love you, Marc, I love you so much.
It has nothing to do with--
MARC: It has everything to do with it, darling.
(ISABELLA CHUCKLES)
MARC: I don't know what-- What happened?
I'm so sad.
No, I'm sad, too. I just-- I got information...
MARC: I don't know what you...
Some women decided to do a brand as a way to fucking bond.
No, no, no, no, no.
- Women were told... - MARC: Do you think--
...that they were going to get a tattoo,
and it was not an informed...
MARC: Okay, what if that's not true?
What if it is?
MARC: If that was true, Isabella,
that's called illegal.
That's called assault.
Yeah, I know.
That's why I don't think it's good.
That's why I'm choosing to not be in Albany right now.
MARC: I don't think you understand what you're doing.
What am I doing?
MARC: Believing people...
that I don't think are being very honest with you.
And there's nothing I can do.
Other than that I just feel really sad.
Marc, I'm really sad.
(CELLPHONE VIBRATES)
But it might be also helpful to look at who you're believing
that may not be honest with you.
MARC: You know, you have to decide
who you want to trust.
Nancy and myself, we were able to do things for you
that in your entire life nobody could help you with.
Now, you're just sitting there saying that you can't trust me.
Marc, I'm not saying that I can't trust you.
MARC: Yes, you are. You're trusting people
who are doing destructive things.
You realize this might affect the Tourette's?
My Tourette's? Or yours or the study?
MARC: Helping people with Tourette.
Well...
MARC: There's gonna be a day
when you realize this stuff isn't true, Isabella.
Marc, I pray to God, I wish it wasn't true.
I really do.
MARC: I'm telling you right now, Isabella.
It's not true.
I am going to keep helping people get over Tourette's.
You know we have the best results in the world.
I'm gonna hop off, and it's not a personal offence,
like, I don't mean it to be that way.
I care a lot about everyone.
It has nothing to do with the people.
It's just-- It's not--
Things haven't been handled well, I don't think.
- MARC: Okay, I'll see you. - Bye, Marc.
- MARC: Be well, Isabella. - Love you.
-(BUTTON CLICKS) -(CALL DISCONNECTS)
(CHUCKLES, SIGHS)
(DOORBELL RINGING)
-(ISABELLA GASPS, EXCLAIMS) -(VASCO CHEERS)
- ISABELLA: What? - Mm.
Mm, it's so good to see you.
I brought wine and Oreos.
ISABELLA: You're the best (LAUGHS)
(VASCO LAUGHS)
I've been getting calls and like, Marc can intellect.
Like, you know, people can intellect things.
- I've known Marc since 2004. - ISABELLA: Yeah.
I knew him when he had full-blown Tourette's.
Before I resigned, I was talking to Marc, and I said, "Okay,
under what circumstances would you leave ESP?
Well, what if Keith was convicted of...
embezzling money?"
And he said, "Let the courts decide that."
I was like, "Okay,
what if he was found guilty of rape?"
And he said, "I'm curing...
Tourette's.
I'm changing people's lives.
I will never leave ESP."
♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
MARC: I just think Keith's a pioneer.
I think he has an incredible mind
and capacity to help people.
A lot of times people will say, "Well, Marc, you know,
why don't you just go break off,
and why don't you just go do your own thing,
and why don't you just go help other people with Tourette's?"
And it's just not that simple.
Because of now how everything is equated to being a sex cult,
anything I do in the world moving forward,
they're going to attack me.
Because I'm unwilling to disavow my friend, Keith Raniere.
I will always be a hated figure.
- MARC: Hey! - Hi, how's it going?
I believe that that the only way that I foresee at the moment
to be able to help people Tourette's in the future,
is I have to expose this injustice.
AUTOMATED VOICE 1: An inmate at a federal prison.
AUTOMATED VOICE 2: Raniere.
-(PHONE BEEPS) - MARC: Hey, Keith.
We're going to do everything we can.
-(BIRDS CHIRPING) -(DOGS BARKING IN DISTANCE)
(VIDEO CALL RINGING)
-(CALL CONNECTS) - NANCY: Hello.
DIANE BENSCOTER: (OVER VIDEO CALL) How are you?
Good, how are you? I'm Nancy.
DIANE: Hi, Nancy. Pleasure to meet you.
NANCY: I'm really happy that, um... that I'm...
having an opportunity to speak to you.
My cat is-- Come here, Mouse. Come here.
Your cat's name is Mouse?
NANCY: Yes, wait. You have to see him.
(LAUGHS)
- Hairless cat. - Yes, he's really sweet.
(MOUSE PURRS)
I think he's trying to be here with me during-- during this.
DIANE: Have you had any support at all?
No, nothing, no professional support.
What's your perception right now of what you went through?
Um. Keith was...
Well, in the beginning, he was kind.
But he got more and more and more controlling
as time went on.
But I don't think I ever thought about leaving.
I-- I just thought...
he was difficult.
I think it's important for people to,
when they look back and deconstruct their--
this experience,
if you can think of like your life in three identities.
There's the identity before,
where there was something lacking in your life.
So then identity number two is you get almost intoxicated
with this feeling, like, "I found this great thing,"
and you get the whole camaraderie
and the community
and all of that and it feels really good.
And then when that world crumbles like it has for you,
who am I now?
But you can get there by looking at your first identity.
And try to get at why were you vulnerable
to these kinds of control tactics?
♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
(BIRDS CHIRPING)
NANCY: When Keith left the country,
I started waking up in the morning
feeling peaceful.
And I would think to myself, "What is wrong with you?"
You have this wonderful life that he helped you create.
Like, what is wrong with you?
(CAMERA CREW CHATTING QUIETLY)
(CLEARS THROAT)
(COUGHS) Mic.
So, I have someone who is...
in the external world,
it would look like telling me something I already know.
I can-- I can--
Um. In the future, it might be good
if I'm speaking, let me speak.
And then-- No, no. And then say that afterwards.
Um...
In any situation, you can learn.
NANCY: I was terrified of Keith.
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
NANCY: Whenever I was in a meeting with other people,
he acted like I wasn't there.
He would correct me whenever I said anything.
He purposely disempowered me.
So when he was around, I never opened my mouth.
But I always wanted his approval.
He got me into a...
You know, like, a reenactment
of trying to get approval from my mother.
When I was six years old, my teacher called a meeting
and she told my mother that I was dyslexic.
And I thought it was something I should be ashamed of.
(SNIFFLES)
I didn't do well in school in my early years and...
(SNIFFLES)
...my mom used to call me her "little dummy."
♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
She used to say, "If they gave As for people loving you,
Nancy would get an A every time. Everyone loves Nancy."
(SNIFFLES)
So I was always wanting to do things
that would make her feel happy with me.
And I grew up and I just accommodated everybody
because I wanted approval.
- KEITH: Keep your... - Yeah.
- ...walkie-talkie. - Yeah, yeah.
NANCY: And I believe that Keith knew
that I always needed approval,
and therefore he always withheld approval.
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
NANCY: And the more he withheld approval,
the harder I worked.
- Oh, you want me in it a little? - CAMERAPERSON: Yeah. But not--
But just not moving forward. Okay, I'll do this.
CAMERAPERSON: At certain points you're directly in front of Keith.
If I didn't behave in the way
he wanted me to behave,
he would tell me I was breaching my ethics
and that I wasn't strong.
I think that's how Keith got me to do everything
that he got me to do.
Constantly made me feel like nothing I did was good enough.
(OBJECTS CLATTERING)
ISABELLA: I set this up after I moved back home.
All of the paintings I did before ESP,
I did in pure states of creativity and curiosity.
After I worked with Nancy, I was working on these.
I think that's around the time I stopped finishing paintings.
I haven't really painted since 2015.
NANCY: (OVER VIDEO) Why do we teach you states?
What are we teaching you?
Yeah, that you can control anything, that you can--
Anytime you feel not good, that's a choice
that you're pretending you're not in control of.
You're pretending that you don't have a choice
in that moment,
or you're just enjoying being miserable.
NANCY: When I worked with Nancy initially,
I think I recognized choice in a different way.
You see that you can literally do anything
in ways that even just people every day, I think,
don't always recognize.
Except that it becomes basically like, how did you author this?
How is this your fault?
I've been doing a lot of the contortions lately,
and it's, I think, really frustrating
because I know I can stop...
but it's hard.
I was very ashamed of everything about Tourette's
because of how they attributed it to your deficiencies
and the things you're failing at.
We know what we should be,
what we want to be, the perfect us,
versus the physiological values of how we feel.
If you go with your body,
you breach your ideological ethics.
ISABELLA: I didn't want to tic because I thought that was me
being a terrible person.
I've been... (CLEARS THROAT QUIETLY)
I don't know if more emotional is the right way to say it.
It's probably from coming off of the meds.
ISABELLA: I was being pressured to go off of meds.
I'd been on about 40 different meds
since the time I was ten.
The physical withdrawal, I wouldn't wish on anyone.
I've been having a lot of anxiety.
I can't eat or sleep. (SNIFFLES)
I just got off the phone with Marc.
He said it's good that my body is doing all these things
because I'm adj-- adjusting and changing.
It doesn't feel good. But it probably is.
Once I stopped ticcing, all of these other things
started to manifest.
My OCD got worse
and I was struggling, like, immensely.
I would reach out to Nancy or I would try to talk to Marc
and everyone would say,
"But why are you choosing to do this?"
♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
ISABELLA: At one point, Nancy brought me aside and goes,
"You're just being very attention seeking."
I remember, she said that and I was so scared.
I didn't want to be attention seeking.
Like I didn't want to be unethical.
So I just withdrew.
And so it's true I stopped ticcing,
but I became broken in other ways.
MERRY: Probably a year into NXIVM,
we noticed her personality changed dramatically.
She became very controlled, and she had lost her voice.
You joining us, Belle, or are you gonna--
- I'm gonna stand. - MERRY: You're gonna stand?
Yeah.
I actually do want to ask you a question, but I don't want
to have a conversation like this, please.
(BREATHES DEEPLY)
So, during that study, you would be angry.
What was the anger about?
Uh, the curriculum devalues you
without making it obvious that it's putting you down.
Like, Marc suggested I take a penance for still ticcing,
and I was like, "I don't want to do that."
He was like, "No, it's with love!"
MERRY: What-- What's a penance? What do you mean?
ISABELLA: I don't know, something like... (SIGHS)
...to help hold you accountable
for the thing that you say you want to do.
- If you're not doing it-- - But what--
- GARY CONSTANTINO: What was-- - What did you--
ISABELLA: Anything. I don't know.
People did different things. They would...
- GARY: Sweep the ground? - MERRY: Physical? Mental?
Anything. It could be anything. It could be...
- you know, if you're-- - GARY: Give me one of yours.
Do you want me to tell you or...
-(MERRY CHUCKLES) - GARY: Give me an example of what you did.
Can we-- Can I? Okay.
So, some people would run a mile every day
or some people would not, you know, eat for a day.
Is... I'm just curious.
Is not being nice simply trying to make you do
what you don't want to do at that moment?
ISABELLA: No, it's-- it doesn't matter
what you want to do. It's...
what they want to do.
And then they say it's what you want.
And then they break you, like,
the harder you work, the more you struggle.
And that's how they keep you in.
GARY: Hmm.
♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
NANCY: What we found in ESP was that many of us set goals
but found it difficult
because there wasn't any consequence.
Like, I had a woman and she said to me,
"I have a thing where I-- I have two numbers.
My numbers are eight and nine."
And I said, "And how does that limit you?"
And she said,
"Well, I'm always late because I have to do things
89 times or 98 times."
So I disconnected the stimulus response.
And then I said to her, "You're going to have to do
something physical to break the state in the moment."
She said, "Like what?" And I said, "Like, a plank."
ANNOUNCER: Plank position, as though you're about to plank.
Nice, straight line.
Come over here.
NANCY: If you have a very bad habit,
there's no reason to stop it, really.
So you have to make it feel bad.
The only way we change something
is when change is easier than not changing.
And if you don't commit to a consequence,
you're never going to break this habit.
(BIRDS CHIRPING)
ANN CONSTANTINO: That's what I do at the center.
Okay?
That's it. Enough for the old lady.
-(CHUCKLES) -(LAUGHS)
Well, she went-- Where was it that you went to?
- Al-- Albany. - Albany.
That's-- she went there.
And from when she went there to when she came home...
God bless whoever did it.
All the saints in heaven.
You got your health, you got everything.
You could have a million dollars and not have your health,
what good is it, right?
Yep.
(SMOOCHES)
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
ISABELLA: Do you remember the first time I saw you
when I came back from the treatment?
Oh, I do remember when you came home
and we passed each other,
and I waited for you to, like, smack me a few times?
If we brushed each other, I'd have to do like, a routine.
CHRISTINA CONSTANTINO: You'd have to like-- yeah.
So I just stood there, like, waited for it,
and I turned around,
and you were-- you, like, you kept walking.
I was like, "Oh, cool." (CHUCKLES)
MERRY: I mean, there was a time we couldn't touch her.
Now?
-(ALL CHUCKLE) - That's my baby.
GARY: Just testing it, are you, Mom?
ANN: This is what I can't understand,
how they did it.
ISABELLA: It was like,
helping us understand Tourette's differently.
But like, it was really difficult.
And, you know, people would say, "But you had Tourette's."
So there's-- That was always a good one.
People want to-- "But you had Tourette's."
- The key word here is "had." - GARY: Yeah. Yep.
(CHUCKLES) Yeah. The positive is,
your symptoms are diminished or eliminated.
You've built new skills because of NXIVM.
I believe they can make you more productive, more efficient.
And those are all positives
and you did not have that when you left here.
CHRISTINA: You don't think there are after-effects?
GARY: Oh, I'm sure there are.
But whatever happened there, created this...
effect on your sister.
She was taking medications to the point
where we were frightened for her longevity.
No, I mean, I agree with you guys completely.
It's just, a lot of it was when I came home,
you guys didn't see how hard it was.
It was like, "Okay, you need to get a job.
You need to get going."
It wasn't even, like, how far I've come.
It was like, "You're behind."
Once again, like in ESP,
I don't feel a lot of choice here.
GARY: Our experience has been
that if we don't set expectations...
nothing happens.
You don't realize how much, how much it's-- it's taken
to get to this point. I'm getting better,
but I'm not in a healthy space here.
Yeah, I... this is...
This is-- I'm gonna-- I'm gonna step away
'cause I'm a little defensive about it,
'cause I'm really angry.
- GARY: I think so. Yeah. - ISABELLA: All right.
GARY: I don't know what's going on, Merr.
- I just... don't know, Merr. - Hmm.
My approach to Keith and the leadership
and all the bad is, that's bad.
It doesn't change the reality. She was able to do something
simply because she began to believe in herself to do it.
And it is supportive people who cared about her around her.
I cannot believe you can separate it...
the way you are.
No. No.
I-- I-- It makes me so angry...
- Hmm. - ...that people with power
are taking, you know, were taking advantage of...
- of their knowledge... -(INHALES)
...and their position.
I'm not condoning it. What they did was duplicitous.
But still there was good.
And that good is real.
♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
-(CAR HORNS BLARING) -(SIREN WAILING)
MARC AGNIFILO: People didn't stay in NXIVM
or even in DOS because they were coerced.
They stayed in it because they really thought
they were making society and the world better,
you know, through these very tangible things.
The Tourette study was just fascinating.
Personal growth is hard to measure.
The Tourette's is measurable. You know, you could see it.
I think it really comes down to, "Does this group do good?"
And if it does, and I think it does,
I don't think a jury is going to want the government
to have destroyed it.
Oh, I-- I don't buy any of it.
There have been studies showing that cognitive behavioral therapy
can be very effective in Tourette's.
So there may have been techniques
that Nancy Salzman was able to use
that did reduce some small number of people's tics,
but that had nothing to do with Keith Raniere
or NXIVM teachings.
One of the things that made NXIVM so dangerous
was the way it would use some legitimate psychological tools
in a really manipulative, coercive way.
It's really sad because some of the people
who ended up in this so-called study
were so vulnerable,
they were absolutely desperate to deal with this serious,
complicated disease.
And they just ended up being harmed further.
There was all this pressure on them to show improvement
so that Keith and NXIVM would look good.
It's just completely unethical
to experiment on people this way.
(TRAIN BELL RINGING)
ISABELLA: I told my parents last night
that I was coming here.
Going to the trial, I think, will be helpful
just to process and get a sense of closure.
(CLEARS THROAT QUIETLY)
MERRY: It's taken me quite a while to understand
that she's probably experienced something like PTSD.
The deal with the devil
was going in with our eyes wide open,
knowing that there was weird stuff going on
in the background here.
But we were willing to take...
what could be a big risk...
to get help for Isabella.
And we believed that she would be protected
by someone like Nancy, who had daughters herself.
♪ (SOFT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
(DOOR OPENING)
NANCY: Hello.
MICHELLE SALZMAN: She used to do these, like...
I'd come home from a party or from whatever
and I'd have to wake her up to, like, tell her that I was home,
and she'd like smell me... (LAUGHS)
...to see if I had been like, you know, I assume smoking
- or drinking or something. - NANCY: Drinking.
-(CHUCKLES) I'd go, "Come here." - She'd go... (INHALES SHARPLY)
(LAUGHS)
Like, she'd wake up inhaling me.
-(LAUGHS) - MICHELLE SALZMAN: The--
There was one time when Lauren and I
got really high and we came home,
- and Keith was over. (LAUGHS) -(NANCY LAUGHS)
- No! Really? - MICHELLE: Yes.
This is something that we...
NANCY: Was this after Lauren graduated?
MICHELLE: Yeah, it was early.
- It was super early. - So it was when I first met Keith, right.
MICHELLE: I don't even know if ESP started yet.
No, it was probably that summer.
But we kind of like, my mom already started learning
about parasitic strategies.
And so, things that Lauren and I were doing... (CHUCKLES)
...she was like, "You're just being a parasite."
We were like, "What the fuck are you even talking about?"
NANCY: (LAUGHS) They were so mad at me.
-(LAUGHS) - Like, who is this person?
- What are you being taught? - You guys were-- Lauren was--
You were trying to hold us accountable
with these like new strategies that you had.
NANCY: You know, I always wanted to be
- a good mother. - Of course.
No, of course, which is why we did all of this stuff.
- Why we followed you anywhere. - NANCY: Right.
♪ (MELANCHOLIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
(OVER VOICEMAIL)
NANCY: How could someone who created something
that was so beautiful,
do something that was so terrible?
When I first hired my lawyer, he said,
"Anybody who stands trial with Keith will go to jail.
You have to plead guilty."
And then he said, "You have to convince your daughter
to plead guilty too."
We tried to have the case severed
so that the sex crimes were on-- in one case
and the non-sex crimes were in another case,
because they're very different crimes.
But they made it an enterprise and they said
they're not severing the case.
I think they arrested me because they wanted to pit
Lauren and I against each other.
At that point, the only thing we could do is plead guilty
because if I didn't plead guilty and get Lauren to plead guilty,
she would have gone to jail for ten or more years.
Lauren took a little while to come to terms with it.
KEITH: The body can do so much more
than the mind alone.
There's one drill that we do. You wanna step up?
I mean, I think you've...
Follow my hands with your hands, right?
Follow them exactly. Pretty good.
- But you're thinking too much. -(LAUREN CHUCKLES)
Now, if you do it with me, uh, if-- if I don't--
- You-- you're not moving. - Oh, you want me to do--
Oh, I'm in the other position.
I mean, I'm not--
- Oh! -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)
- My honey. - LAUREN: Oh.
- But-- Are you okay? - Yeah, just give me one sec.
Please hit me.
- No, I don't want to. (CHUCKLES) -(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)
I'm s-- I'm sorry
- for the-- for the strike. - LAUREN: It's okay. It's okay.
But if you learn to suspend your mind,
then the body can do all sorts of things
that you've never done before.
So I think what you need to decide
is what do you really want
and how much are you willing to devote
to being a master at it?
NANCY: She just loved him and she wanted to believe
that it wasn't what it was.
Are you okay?
- LAUREN: Yeah. - Yeah. Okay.
It was very difficult for her,
and what she did was very, very difficult for her,
and she was the only one who could do it.
Testify about the sorority.
♪ (SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
NANCY: Lauren gave them more information
than they knew existed.
She really turned the case.
REPORTER 5: The second weekend,
the federal NXIVM trial wraps up in Brooklyn
with Lauren Salzman on the stand.
REPORTER 6: Lauren Salzman held
several high-ranking positions
and acted as times as a recruiter, teacher,
and a DOS master.
Salzman is the first co-conspirator
to testify against Keith Raniere.
REPORTER 7: We will be keeping our eye on what could turn out
to be a very pivotal day in the case.
(GAVEL BANGS)
JUDGE GARAUFIS: The government may call
its next witness to the stand.
TANYA HAJJAR: The government calls
Lauren Salzman to the stand.
(FOOTSTEPS)
TANYA: Good morning, Ms. Salzman.
Good morning.
How long were you a part of NXIVM?
LAUREN: Almost 20 years.
TANYA: Who first approached you about DOS?
LAUREN: Keith first approached me.
He said that he wanted to make our relationship closer.
Let me into your space.
And he asked me what I was willing to do
for my growth and for my commitment to him.
TANYA: What did you say?
LAUREN: Anything.
Anything.
♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC CONCLUDES) ♪
♪ ("PIANO IN THE SKY" BY WINONA OAK PLAYING) ♪
♪ There's a piano in the sky ♪
♪ I hear it playing All the time ♪
♪ There's a rope I'm holding tight ♪
♪ I dream of falling Every night ♪
♪ I'm tired of thinking That I don't deserve you ♪
♪ I'm dreading the day When you let me go ♪
♪ So take all this love From me ♪
♪ I don't want to feel anymore ♪
♪ Just take this heart of me ♪
♪ You had every part of me ♪
♪ I'll be fine, I promise ♪
♪ Don't say, don't say Don't say, don't say ♪
♪ There's a way To live without me, baby ♪
♪ Too late, too late It's all too late ♪
♪ So I'll stay till we break ♪
♪ ("PIANO IN THE SKY" CONCLUDES) ♪