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♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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NANCY SALZMAN: What is
the nature of an ethical breach
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and why does it occur?
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What does it mean when you
commit an ethical breach
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and what are its effects?
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Get together with your groups
and your facilitators
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and discuss those questions.
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And then we'll meet back here
and discuss them together.
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The ultimate crime
was this thing he called
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"an ethical breach," and why
it's an ethical breach
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is because supposedly
you go against your own morality
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to do something that gives
you a benefit that's easy,
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as opposed to doing
the hard thing
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that allows you
to be a better person.
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"Repairing an ethical breach
is vital to all of humanity.
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It's vital to love."
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"The moment
you don't repair a breach,
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you're destroying
your morality."
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I started thinking,
are any of us ever good?
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Is there anyone ever
that gets involved
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with Keith Raniere
that their ethical breach
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doesn't end up on the table
as an issue,
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that he then has power
over them?
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There was a certain point
when I realized nobody
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ever was able to heal
an ethical breach with Keith.
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And once he had
an ethical breach on you,
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he used it to torture you.
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♪ ("DREAM STATE"
FT. BONNIE PIESSE
BY SON LUX PLAYING) ♪
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♪ Days we were young ♪
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♪ We took photographs of ♪
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♪ Everything we could see ♪
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♪ We had to run from it ♪
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♪ Priest and prophetess
We were ♪
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♪ Nothing we would defy ♪
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♪ Oh! Invisible skin ♪
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♪ Where is the world within? ♪
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♪ Invincible skin
It's how we all begin ♪
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♪ (SONG CONCLUDES) ♪
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♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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REPORTER 1: The second week
in the federal NXIVM trial
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wraps up in Brooklyn
with Lauren Salzman
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on the stand.
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REPORTER 2:
When it comes to the big names
in the NXIVM trial,
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Lauren Salzman is one
that tends to get overshadowed.
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She isn't the NXIVM co-founder,
her mother is.
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But Lauren Salzman
is the first co-conspirator
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to testify
against Keith Raniere.
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(SARAH EDMONDSON SIGHS)
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(INHALES) This is Nancy, Lauren,
and Michelle.
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This is the part
that just blows my mind.
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She was knowingly putting
Keith's initials
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on other women's bodies
and not telling them.
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(SIGHS)
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She did hurt people.
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And she hurt
her closest friends,
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and she lost an opportunity
to have a wonderful friendship
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with many people,
myself included.
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And it's gonna be lonely there.
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Wherever she ends up,
whether it's jail or--
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(SNIFFS) You know.
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♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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TANYA HAJJAR: So, Ms. Salzman,
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how long have you known
the defendant?
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Almost 20 years.
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I was a senior in college
when my mom and Keith decided
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they were going to start
a human potential school.
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So, I thought
it would be a surprise
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that Vanguard was going
to be here.
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He's going to introduce
a brand-new module tonight.
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And I got a preview,
so you're in for a treat.
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LAUREN SALZMAN:
And when I graduated,
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my mom told me they were going
to teach classes
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that were going to be good
for figuring out
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what I wanted to do
in this next stage of my life.
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And she made a deal with me
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that if I came into the classes
for six months,
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then she would support me
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no matter what I wanted
to do after that.
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NANCY: Keith used to call
Lauren "Chip."
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"Chip off the old block."
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He said he had never seen
a mother and daughter
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who were so similar
and so connected.
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(STUDENTS APPLAUDING)
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(ALL CHUCKLE)
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-(STUDENTS APPLAUD)
-♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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NANCY: I always used
to say to her,
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"Lauren, you're gonna have
to be better than anyone.
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Because everybody will think
you got this job because of me.
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And so you have to work harder."
And she did.
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ALL: Thank you.
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(STUDENTS APPLAUD)
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♪ (PIANO MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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NANCY: My daughter
was the happiest
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I had ever seen her.
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But also I had a concern.
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Like, was it really
that she just loved ESP,
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or was something else going on
behind the scenes?
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♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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(CHUCKLES)
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(KISSING)
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-LAUREN: See you tonight.
-KEITH RANIERE: See you later.
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TANYA: So, Ms. Salzman,
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how long did you have
a sexual relationship
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with the defendant?
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LAUREN: Mostly between 2001
and 2008.
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KEITH: Are you wearing
underwear?
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-LAUREN: Yes.
-KEITH: Aw!
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I always wear underwear, Keith.
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TANYA: Now, at the time
you began your relationship,
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did you openly discuss
or acknowledge it?
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LAUREN: No. He asked me not to.
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TANYA: Was it difficult
not to tell your mother
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about the relationship?
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LAUREN: Yeah,
it was really difficult for me.
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♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
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NANCY: I did not know
about Lauren's relationship
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with Keith for five years.
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And it wasn't until things
were going badly
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that Lauren told me.
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(SIGHS)
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It was-- I had mixed feelings.
I felt like, in a way,
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it was a betrayal.
But I also felt like...
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that maybe it was wrong
to feel that way.
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Like, I mean, he's...
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He was supposed
to be this very ethical person,
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and she wasn't a child,
but she was.
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The fact that he kept it
from me...
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was-- That's terrible.
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Because he knew that--
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He had to know
that it wasn't okay.
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Now, in retrospect,
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I know that he started right
from the beginning.
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After college,
she moved back in with me.
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And Keith wanted her
to move out.
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And he said I was keeping
her dependent,
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and it was really bad.
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And he told me I had
to charge her rent.
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He convinced her to move out.
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And she said that immediately
he was on her.
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And she said, "He just wanted
to get me away from you
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so he could do that."
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TANYA: Ms. Salzman,
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did you ever discuss
having children
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-with the defendant?
-LAUREN: Yes.
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We started talking
about having children
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within the first five years
of our relationship.
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I had expressed that I wanted
to have children.
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And he said that
that was something he could do.
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And as I got closer to 30,
I started pushing harder
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for that to happen.
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He told me that the reason
we aren't having children
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was because I didn't have
a good work output
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and that I hadn't lost weight
and my state was very low.
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So I focused on changing
all of those things.
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(STATIC)
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KEITH: Now, how about--
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(INDISTINCT CHATTER, CHUCKLING)
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LAUREN: Then, in 2011,
Keith said it was a good time
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to start trying
to have children.
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But then, one night
in volleyball...
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I was excited and roughhousing.
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And I jumped on another
male NXIVM member.
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He said I straddled him
and that I communicated
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that I was open
to having relationships
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with other men.
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And that I had really
disrespected him.
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Keith said I committed
an ethical breach.
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When there was a breach,
you would humble yourself
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and make a commitment
and plan to fix it.
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So I stayed home
for a whole weekend,
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and I came up with
a very involved seven-page plan.
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TANYA: I'm showing you
government exhibit 1497.
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Can you read the text
of that email?
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LAUREN: "I'm so sorry, Keith.
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I'm perceived as easy
or available for a relationship,
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or viewed as jumping from man
to man, so not taken seriously.
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This degrades me
and also sets a bad example
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in the organization
and reflects poorly on Keith
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and his choice to be with me
or have a child with me."
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"I damaged the way
others will view,
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relate with,
and treat our child,
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so I'm hurting someone
who doesn't even exist yet."
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LAUREN: Keith said
it was a pattern.
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That the way I relate with men
disrespected our relationship.
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Which was another reason
why we couldn't have children
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and that I had to work
on myself first.
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TANYA:
During that period of time,
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were you in any other sexual
or romantic relationships
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with anyone
besides the defendant?
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No.
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TANYA: So was your relationship
with the defendant monogamous?
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LAUREN: Only for me.
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TANYA:
And was that a requirement?
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LAUREN: Yes.
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NANCY: I know
that the government thinks
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this is a sex case.
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00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:02,031
I don't think this
is a sex case.
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00:13:02,114 --> 00:13:04,658
I think this is an abuse
of power case.
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They're making sex the big thing
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00:13:06,368 --> 00:13:08,662
because that's what everybody
wants to buy.
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It's power.
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00:13:10,789 --> 00:13:12,374
And the way he abused it
with women
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00:13:12,458 --> 00:13:16,128
was to control them through
these romantic relationships.
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VERO JASPEADO: I was in love
with an idea of who--
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what I thought he was.
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00:13:25,095 --> 00:13:27,556
I believed he was...
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00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,685
he was this man upholding
these amazing values.
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At some point, Nancy Salzman
approached me and she said
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00:13:37,525 --> 00:13:41,362
that Keith wanted
to spend time with me.
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And then just a few hours later,
Lauren called me on my mobile.
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And she said that--
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00:13:47,451 --> 00:13:51,664
that she had been talking
to Keith and to her mom,
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and that Keith
wanted to meet with me.
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00:13:53,999 --> 00:13:57,211
And that it was such an honor.
"I just wanted you to know this.
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00:13:57,294 --> 00:14:00,422
Whatever you choose is fine,
but I wanted you to know,
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00:14:00,506 --> 00:14:05,094
that this is a high privilege
that you have right now."
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00:14:05,177 --> 00:14:07,263
The Dalai Lama flies to see him.
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00:14:07,346 --> 00:14:09,682
You know, if the Dalai Lama
comes to see him,
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00:14:09,765 --> 00:14:11,809
it's like,
this is a huge opportunity.
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00:14:13,227 --> 00:14:14,436
You could say that I had,
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00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,731
like, an infatuation
with my teacher, you know.
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Through the years,
we became closer.
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00:14:20,651 --> 00:14:23,195
And eventually, our relationship
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00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:25,197
transformed
to something intimate.
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He just asked me to be discreet.
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00:14:30,327 --> 00:14:34,290
He sees more than I do.
He believes it's a better idea
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00:14:34,373 --> 00:14:37,376
to keep our relationship
a secret.
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Of course, I understand.
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00:14:46,719 --> 00:14:49,597
TANYA: So, Ms. Salzman,
did you ever express wanting
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00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,890
to have a relationship
with someone else
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00:14:51,974 --> 00:14:53,350
to the defendant?
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00:14:54,101 --> 00:14:57,104
LAUREN: Yes. In 2013,
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00:14:57,187 --> 00:14:59,815
I told Keith that I had been
spending time with someone,
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00:14:59,898 --> 00:15:02,276
and I shared a kiss
with that person.
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00:15:02,359 --> 00:15:04,528
I was hoping that he would end
the relationship
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00:15:04,612 --> 00:15:06,113
because I did that.
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But he told me if I stayed,
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00:15:08,282 --> 00:15:10,409
he would reinvest
in our relationship.
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00:15:10,492 --> 00:15:12,244
And that we could
have children soon.
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00:15:12,328 --> 00:15:16,248
I said, "Soon like a year,
or soon like five years?"
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00:15:16,332 --> 00:15:19,543
And he said,
"Within that time frame."
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00:15:19,627 --> 00:15:22,504
But then he told me
he was considering resigning
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00:15:22,588 --> 00:15:25,507
as Vanguard
because of what I had done.
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00:15:25,591 --> 00:15:26,508
(CROWD APPLAUDING)
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00:15:26,592 --> 00:15:28,594
LAUREN:
It was a huge deal to me.
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00:15:28,677 --> 00:15:30,346
I couldn't make sense
of why he would leave
247
00:15:30,429 --> 00:15:34,016
the community without a leader
because I had done this.
248
00:15:34,099 --> 00:15:36,018
GROUP:
249
00:15:36,101 --> 00:15:38,187
(CHEERING, APPLAUDING)
250
00:15:38,270 --> 00:15:40,689
LAUREN: So I decided to stay.
251
00:15:40,773 --> 00:15:45,152
I thought if I could prove
to him that I was a good person,
252
00:15:45,235 --> 00:15:47,821
then I could believe it myself.
253
00:15:47,905 --> 00:15:49,990
I mean, I guess
I thought it would help justify
254
00:15:50,074 --> 00:15:53,494
all the choices that I made
over the last 20 years.
255
00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:08,550
MARC AGNIFILO:
You know, it was just a--
256
00:16:08,634 --> 00:16:11,053
a very, very sad, difficult day,
257
00:16:11,136 --> 00:16:12,971
I think, for-- for everybody.
258
00:16:17,101 --> 00:16:18,894
Keith's perspective is that
259
00:16:18,977 --> 00:16:21,939
Lauren had certain things
that in Keith's opinion
260
00:16:22,022 --> 00:16:23,273
she had to work through.
261
00:16:23,357 --> 00:16:26,777
And I think in Keith's mind,
if Lauren worked through them,
262
00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:29,697
maybe they could have
this relationship
263
00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:32,157
that Keith had in mind for them.
264
00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:37,037
Whether Lauren didn't get there
because of Lauren
265
00:16:37,121 --> 00:16:38,288
or Lauren didn't get there
266
00:16:38,372 --> 00:16:42,209
because there is no "there"
to get to, you know, is--
267
00:16:42,292 --> 00:16:44,336
I don't know the answer to that.
268
00:16:45,087 --> 00:16:46,839
♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
269
00:16:46,922 --> 00:16:48,799
There are lots of things
that we do to each other
270
00:16:48,882 --> 00:16:52,261
that are hurtful, you know.
Not all of them,
271
00:16:52,344 --> 00:16:54,930
and maybe even very few
of them, are criminal.
272
00:17:06,984 --> 00:17:08,819
NANCY: It's very sad.
273
00:17:08,902 --> 00:17:11,655
Like, I had a whole life
before I met Keith.
274
00:17:11,739 --> 00:17:15,576
Like a whole, normal,
traditional life.
275
00:17:15,659 --> 00:17:18,370
The thing that saddens me
is the women
276
00:17:18,454 --> 00:17:19,496
in Lauren's generation
277
00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:23,459
who spent their whole
twenties and thirties
278
00:17:23,542 --> 00:17:26,628
with-- with Keith
promising them things
279
00:17:26,712 --> 00:17:28,964
and never had an experience
with the real world.
280
00:17:29,048 --> 00:17:31,550
♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
281
00:17:31,633 --> 00:17:34,219
NANCY: When I got here,
they were all fighting over
282
00:17:34,303 --> 00:17:37,556
who was gonna get
the special babies from Keith.
283
00:17:37,639 --> 00:17:43,645
Like, he promised Barbara, Pam,
and Karen babies.
284
00:17:43,729 --> 00:17:45,814
They-- they had names for them.
285
00:17:45,898 --> 00:17:48,817
Like, I mean, they really
believed they existed.
286
00:17:48,901 --> 00:17:51,945
I found out little by little
all the women didn't have babies
287
00:17:52,029 --> 00:17:53,697
because Keith made them think
288
00:17:53,781 --> 00:17:56,617
that they could have babies,
like, anytime.
289
00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:58,994
And they were all
in their forties and almost 50.
290
00:17:59,077 --> 00:18:01,163
One of the women
had been on the pill
291
00:18:01,246 --> 00:18:03,499
because she had skin problems.
And she went off the pill
292
00:18:03,582 --> 00:18:05,042
and found out she'd been
through menopause
293
00:18:05,125 --> 00:18:06,210
and didn't know it.
294
00:18:06,293 --> 00:18:08,420
And was still thinking
she was gonna get pregnant
295
00:18:08,504 --> 00:18:09,588
and have a baby.
296
00:18:11,465 --> 00:18:13,342
It was crazy.
297
00:18:13,425 --> 00:18:17,846
And then he promised
the next generation babies.
298
00:18:20,808 --> 00:18:23,435
VERO: We were talking
and he was grabbing my hands.
299
00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:25,521
And at some point,
300
00:18:25,604 --> 00:18:28,398
he grabbed his hand
and he put it on my belly.
301
00:18:28,482 --> 00:18:31,235
And he looked at me
and he said,
302
00:18:31,318 --> 00:18:33,320
"Do you wanna have a baby
with me?"
303
00:18:35,739 --> 00:18:37,407
I said,
304
00:18:37,491 --> 00:18:40,452
"I need to think about it,"
or something like that.
305
00:18:40,536 --> 00:18:41,912
And then I wrote to him
and I said,
306
00:18:41,995 --> 00:18:45,165
"Of course I want to, you know.
Of course, I just got...
307
00:18:45,249 --> 00:18:46,667
scared a little bit, but, uh,
308
00:18:46,750 --> 00:18:49,878
I think it's a beautiful thing
what you're asking me."
309
00:18:49,962 --> 00:18:52,881
When I found out that he had
told the same thing
310
00:18:52,965 --> 00:18:55,717
to other friends of mine...
311
00:18:57,386 --> 00:18:58,554
That is so cruel.
312
00:18:58,637 --> 00:19:01,557
You don't-- You don't play
with somebody's motherhood.
313
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,393
You don't do that.
You don't do that.
314
00:19:08,564 --> 00:19:12,526
NANCY: He had me working
with Vero Jaspeado
315
00:19:12,609 --> 00:19:16,530
about her discontent
about the organization.
316
00:19:16,613 --> 00:19:20,117
He called it "management."
I had to manage people.
317
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,912
It was such a diversion
from what I was trying to do.
318
00:19:23,996 --> 00:19:25,080
But if I didn't do it,
319
00:19:25,163 --> 00:19:28,542
I was afraid my organization
would be destroyed.
320
00:19:28,625 --> 00:19:30,460
And-- and I'm telling you,
I felt responsible
321
00:19:30,544 --> 00:19:33,380
-for these women.
-(CROWD APPLAUDING)
322
00:19:35,591 --> 00:19:40,679
NANCY: In a company, you need
a human resources department.
323
00:19:40,762 --> 00:19:43,557
Lauren and I were
the Human Resources Department.
324
00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:46,560
VERO: If someone
was having a reaction,
325
00:19:46,643 --> 00:19:50,981
Nancy or Lauren, or Karen,
or one of the high ranks
326
00:19:51,064 --> 00:19:53,734
would be sent in
to smooth things over
327
00:19:53,817 --> 00:19:56,695
and help us work
our alleged issue.
328
00:19:56,778 --> 00:19:59,823
In my case,
Keith spoke at a training
329
00:19:59,907 --> 00:20:02,701
about my entitlement
and my defiance,
330
00:20:02,784 --> 00:20:05,662
and therefore
everyone felt entitled
331
00:20:05,746 --> 00:20:07,497
to point that out to me.
332
00:20:07,581 --> 00:20:10,751
To the point that I completely
believed it myself.
333
00:20:10,834 --> 00:20:12,002
♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪
334
00:20:12,085 --> 00:20:14,129
VERO: I want to offer
my apologies.
335
00:20:15,172 --> 00:20:19,051
I know very well how and...
336
00:20:20,135 --> 00:20:22,804
and when I have spoken
without honor.
337
00:20:22,888 --> 00:20:25,432
And-- (SIGHS)
338
00:20:25,515 --> 00:20:29,561
And-- and it's so painful.
339
00:20:29,645 --> 00:20:33,649
Sometimes, we're just in awe
to realize what you've built.
340
00:20:33,732 --> 00:20:36,443
And-- and...
341
00:20:36,526 --> 00:20:39,947
I don't think
I fully understand the--
342
00:20:40,030 --> 00:20:44,493
the-- the damage that I--
I've done. (SNIFFLES)
343
00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:47,788
And, uh, I commit
and I promise...
344
00:20:47,871 --> 00:20:50,540
(SNIFFLES, INHALES)
...I'm changing now.
345
00:20:52,584 --> 00:20:56,338
VERO: I believe that many
of the tools that we used in ESP
346
00:20:56,421 --> 00:20:58,674
were meant to
347
00:20:58,757 --> 00:21:01,426
stop listening
to your intuition.
348
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:03,345
To gut feeling.
349
00:21:03,428 --> 00:21:07,891
I strongly stopped listening
to my intuition.
350
00:21:08,475 --> 00:21:09,518
And...
351
00:21:10,477 --> 00:21:13,647
And that was--
That was so important.
352
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,985
One day, he asked me
to meet him.
353
00:21:21,321 --> 00:21:23,323
It was very late.
I think it was, like,
354
00:21:23,407 --> 00:21:25,659
3:00 in the morning
or something like that.
355
00:21:26,451 --> 00:21:28,745
So, we laid together.
356
00:21:28,829 --> 00:21:33,375
I put his hand, like, next to--
to my face.
357
00:21:34,292 --> 00:21:39,006
And I am a woman,
and I know how
358
00:21:39,089 --> 00:21:41,008
female fluids smell.
359
00:21:42,509 --> 00:21:44,469
And he smelled like that.
360
00:21:44,553 --> 00:21:47,556
He said that--
361
00:21:47,639 --> 00:21:51,226
that he had a couple
other relationships.
362
00:21:51,309 --> 00:21:53,437
He asked me how I felt
about it.
363
00:21:54,438 --> 00:21:56,148
And I said that--
364
00:21:57,607 --> 00:21:59,276
Well, that it was uncomfortable.
365
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,362
You know,
and that I was trying to--
366
00:22:02,446 --> 00:22:07,868
to hold my reactions, you know.
But it was painful.
367
00:22:07,951 --> 00:22:10,829
KEITH: You have a relationship
with a person,
368
00:22:10,912 --> 00:22:13,415
and you trust them,
you believe in them.
369
00:22:13,498 --> 00:22:15,917
And then one day
you find they've lied to you.
370
00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:18,295
No matter how many times
they live up to their word,
371
00:22:18,378 --> 00:22:20,380
there's still the one
where they didn't.
372
00:22:21,006 --> 00:22:22,090
So the question is,
373
00:22:22,174 --> 00:22:24,551
can you ever believe in them
absolutely again?
374
00:22:24,634 --> 00:22:26,219
There comes a point
where there are--
375
00:22:26,303 --> 00:22:28,930
is no truth and is no lie.
It doesn't matter.
376
00:22:29,014 --> 00:22:31,475
As long as it matters to me,
I can't be free.
377
00:22:31,558 --> 00:22:33,977
As long
as it doesn't matter to me,
378
00:22:34,061 --> 00:22:35,103
then I am free.
379
00:22:35,187 --> 00:22:37,856
What matters to me
is my experience of you.
380
00:22:37,939 --> 00:22:39,024
You understand?
381
00:22:40,692 --> 00:22:43,320
VERO: I was thinking,
"Why didn't you tell me before?"
382
00:22:43,403 --> 00:22:45,739
These are things
that if you say before,
383
00:22:45,822 --> 00:22:47,616
then I have-- I... I have--
384
00:22:48,617 --> 00:22:51,578
Like, more opportunity
to choose.
385
00:22:51,661 --> 00:22:54,748
And he told me, uh--
That it was my-- my--
386
00:22:54,831 --> 00:22:59,127
my entitlement,
that I wanted him for me or...
387
00:23:00,045 --> 00:23:03,924
that I could feel jealousy or...
388
00:23:05,509 --> 00:23:07,052
Basically, that it was my issue.
389
00:23:12,057 --> 00:23:13,475
NANCY: He wanted the women
390
00:23:13,558 --> 00:23:16,520
that he was in relationship with
to get to the point
391
00:23:16,603 --> 00:23:19,773
where they didn't have reactions
anymore.
392
00:23:19,856 --> 00:23:22,776
If they had a reaction to him
with another woman,
393
00:23:22,859 --> 00:23:24,903
he would hold that
over their head
394
00:23:24,986 --> 00:23:27,405
and say, "Well, you have
an attachment.
395
00:23:27,489 --> 00:23:29,449
You shouldn't care!
396
00:23:29,533 --> 00:23:31,493
And I'm doing this for you."
397
00:23:36,206 --> 00:23:40,043
And I remember this
one particular time
398
00:23:40,127 --> 00:23:43,755
I saw him do something
that I was very upset about
399
00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:45,340
with a woman.
400
00:23:45,423 --> 00:23:50,637
And I found it completely
inappropriate. And I told him.
401
00:23:51,972 --> 00:23:53,515
And he said to me...
402
00:23:54,933 --> 00:23:59,813
"You have no right to think
you know
403
00:23:59,896 --> 00:24:01,857
what what I'm doing means.
404
00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:05,819
You have no way of understanding
the way that I work with people.
405
00:24:05,902 --> 00:24:09,239
And you have no right
to question
406
00:24:09,322 --> 00:24:11,283
how I work with women!
407
00:24:11,366 --> 00:24:16,121
If you ever do it again, ever,
you will never see me again.
408
00:24:16,204 --> 00:24:18,748
We will never speak again."
409
00:24:21,459 --> 00:24:25,422
And I was horrified. Horrified.
410
00:24:26,298 --> 00:24:28,008
I-- I didn't know what to do!
411
00:24:29,509 --> 00:24:31,511
And I somehow...
412
00:24:32,637 --> 00:24:33,930
made myself wrong.
413
00:24:36,558 --> 00:24:38,185
♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
414
00:24:42,355 --> 00:24:45,734
VERO: I was in love! I was gonna
have a baby with this man!
415
00:24:45,817 --> 00:24:49,112
It was hard for me to...
416
00:24:50,071 --> 00:24:51,740
(SIGHS) ...to be objective!
417
00:24:53,575 --> 00:24:55,202
NANCY: Everything is so blurred
418
00:24:55,285 --> 00:24:59,456
because we trusted
that he was teaching us
419
00:24:59,539 --> 00:25:03,084
something that we didn't know
about being ethical
420
00:25:03,168 --> 00:25:04,502
and living an ethical life.
421
00:25:04,586 --> 00:25:07,422
And so we committed ourselves
to something that we thought
422
00:25:07,505 --> 00:25:12,886
was real and principled.
And we did things for him...
423
00:25:14,137 --> 00:25:17,182
because he convinced us that
that's what we were doing.
424
00:25:19,226 --> 00:25:21,353
I resented that
in the background
425
00:25:21,436 --> 00:25:23,855
of everything I did
was damage control
426
00:25:23,939 --> 00:25:26,691
-about Keith's sex life.
-(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING, CHEERING)
427
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,027
NANCY: Is it bad? Yes!
428
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:31,196
But you weigh it
against all these people
429
00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:32,697
who are having
a great experience
430
00:25:32,781 --> 00:25:34,491
and it's just his little world.
431
00:25:36,326 --> 00:25:39,788
I used my authority
432
00:25:39,871 --> 00:25:42,082
to edify Keith Raniere,
433
00:25:42,165 --> 00:25:46,628
and he took the credibility
that I gave him...
434
00:25:48,046 --> 00:25:50,173
and he abused many people.
435
00:25:52,592 --> 00:25:55,553
And I don't know...
436
00:25:56,513 --> 00:25:58,556
how to live with that.
437
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,185
And that's my cross
to bear in my life.
438
00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:04,771
So where is, um...
439
00:26:04,854 --> 00:26:07,190
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
440
00:26:09,526 --> 00:26:13,029
NANCY: He had so many women
he had to balance all the time.
441
00:26:13,113 --> 00:26:16,741
It became harder to get people
into these commitments.
442
00:26:16,825 --> 00:26:18,076
Like with Lauren,
443
00:26:18,159 --> 00:26:21,329
he had to promise her constantly
that he was coming back,
444
00:26:21,413 --> 00:26:22,914
that they were gonna have
a baby.
445
00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:24,457
All of these things!
446
00:26:24,541 --> 00:26:27,168
And I think he created DOS maybe
447
00:26:27,252 --> 00:26:30,422
as a way of getting them
to have this vow
448
00:26:30,505 --> 00:26:32,090
that they would never leave.
449
00:26:39,097 --> 00:26:40,849
TANYA: Ms. Salzman,
I want to go back
450
00:26:40,932 --> 00:26:43,393
to discuss your initial
recruitment into DOS.
451
00:26:43,977 --> 00:26:45,937
Looking back now,
452
00:26:46,021 --> 00:26:47,647
do you see any significance
453
00:26:47,731 --> 00:26:50,275
as to the timing
of your recruitment?
454
00:26:50,358 --> 00:26:52,319
LAUREN: Yes, I do.
455
00:26:52,402 --> 00:26:55,447
Keith told me that he had
started a sorority,
456
00:26:55,530 --> 00:26:57,699
that there were seven founding
members,
457
00:26:57,782 --> 00:26:59,326
and that they were going
to invite me
458
00:26:59,409 --> 00:27:01,494
to be a founding member.
459
00:27:01,578 --> 00:27:04,414
Then a trusted friend
approached me
460
00:27:04,497 --> 00:27:05,999
and we had a meeting
in her car,
461
00:27:06,082 --> 00:27:08,877
where she introduced
the concept of collateral.
462
00:27:10,462 --> 00:27:12,964
She suggested naked pictures.
463
00:27:13,048 --> 00:27:16,509
I took three pictures of myself
that I put on a USB drive
464
00:27:16,593 --> 00:27:18,053
and I gave them to her.
465
00:27:18,136 --> 00:27:20,513
Then once I did that,
she explained
466
00:27:20,597 --> 00:27:23,141
that this is a lifetime vow
of obedience.
467
00:27:24,809 --> 00:27:27,562
Ten days later, he told me
he was having a child
468
00:27:27,645 --> 00:27:29,439
with another woman. Marianna.
469
00:27:30,231 --> 00:27:32,359
I had a complete meltdown.
470
00:27:32,442 --> 00:27:35,862
He stole from me and himself
the ability to know
471
00:27:35,945 --> 00:27:39,491
if I would have stayed
without a collateralized vow.
472
00:27:39,574 --> 00:27:42,869
He responded by telling me
that my emotional reaction
473
00:27:42,952 --> 00:27:44,537
was making things harder.
474
00:27:45,872 --> 00:27:48,625
Love, if you will,
is the greatest fight.
475
00:27:48,708 --> 00:27:51,294
It fights against comfort.
It fights against our bodies.
476
00:27:51,378 --> 00:27:54,005
It fights against our emotions.
It fights against our words.
477
00:27:54,089 --> 00:27:56,383
Hopefully, when you take on
commitments,
478
00:27:56,466 --> 00:27:57,717
when you take on vows,
479
00:27:57,801 --> 00:27:59,636
you're going to have
to fight for them
480
00:27:59,719 --> 00:28:02,263
harder than you imagined.
481
00:28:02,347 --> 00:28:06,059
That's how we know love
by how much pain we can feel.
482
00:28:06,142 --> 00:28:08,645
LAUREN: Ultimately,
I apologized to Keith
483
00:28:08,728 --> 00:28:11,606
for my immaturity and committed
to staying with him,
484
00:28:11,689 --> 00:28:15,527
knowing there wouldn't be
a relationship or children.
485
00:28:20,031 --> 00:28:23,535
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
486
00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:27,747
(SCOFFS) I find today
to be really disturbing.
487
00:28:28,498 --> 00:28:29,582
Uh...
488
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,627
It was really hard to stomach.
489
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:35,463
If someone who is so devoted
to him...
490
00:28:35,547 --> 00:28:36,589
I mean, she loves this man.
491
00:28:36,673 --> 00:28:38,383
She wants to have children
with him.
492
00:28:38,466 --> 00:28:40,301
And then he has the gall
to approach her
493
00:28:40,385 --> 00:28:43,513
after she has waited
for so many years and say,
494
00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:46,683
"Actually, I think I'm going
to have a child with Marianna."
495
00:28:46,766 --> 00:28:50,395
And then when she gets upset
about that...
496
00:28:50,478 --> 00:28:54,357
it's thrown back in her face
as the reason that she's not fit
497
00:28:54,441 --> 00:28:56,234
to bear children with Keith.
498
00:29:00,196 --> 00:29:02,449
It's just such a mind fuck.
499
00:29:02,532 --> 00:29:04,409
♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
500
00:29:18,131 --> 00:29:19,299
ANTHONY AMES: All right.
501
00:29:21,342 --> 00:29:23,511
SARAH: "In 2005,
he took nude pictures of her
502
00:29:23,595 --> 00:29:26,598
on a bed in his library." Gross.
503
00:29:27,682 --> 00:29:31,019
"Raniere advised her
on her ideal weight."
504
00:29:31,102 --> 00:29:34,898
Manipulative fuck. Sorry,
I'm getting a little angry now.
505
00:29:36,774 --> 00:29:38,943
I wouldn't say I wanted
to be branded per se,
506
00:29:39,027 --> 00:29:42,697
but I wanted to prove to Keith
that I was the kind of person
507
00:29:42,780 --> 00:29:45,575
who was committed to growth.
Oh, Lauren.
508
00:29:45,658 --> 00:29:46,868
ANTHONY:
"Lauren wanted to believe
509
00:29:46,951 --> 00:29:48,786
that all of this
was for her growth,
510
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:50,580
and she wanted to make everyone
proud of her
511
00:29:50,663 --> 00:29:51,998
and wanted
to have a child with Keith.
512
00:29:52,081 --> 00:29:54,542
When DOS was exposed,
there was a renewed discussion
513
00:29:54,626 --> 00:29:56,628
on the subject of Lauren
having children with Keith.
514
00:29:56,711 --> 00:29:58,880
Keith said he would do some
kind of fertility treatments
515
00:29:58,963 --> 00:30:01,382
to have a child with Lauren
if Lauren stayed."
516
00:30:01,466 --> 00:30:04,636
-What the fuck?
-Motherfucker.
517
00:30:04,719 --> 00:30:06,262
♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
518
00:30:08,431 --> 00:30:10,391
I'm just... (SIGHS)
519
00:30:12,435 --> 00:30:15,855
It's just, like, I don't know.
(INHALES)
520
00:30:19,150 --> 00:30:20,610
Like...
521
00:30:20,693 --> 00:30:22,278
Even through betrayal
522
00:30:22,362 --> 00:30:24,739
with Lauren
and how she lied to me,
523
00:30:24,822 --> 00:30:27,283
there's always been
this through line,
524
00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:29,577
like, that I still cared
about her.
525
00:30:29,661 --> 00:30:31,704
You know, that's why I didn't
take the photo down of her,
526
00:30:31,788 --> 00:30:32,830
my bridesmaid.
527
00:30:33,957 --> 00:30:36,000
I'm not saying her choices
are okay,
528
00:30:36,084 --> 00:30:38,127
but she was fucked with.
529
00:30:38,211 --> 00:30:42,590
She has been fucked with,
and consequently fucked...
530
00:30:42,674 --> 00:30:44,968
other people too.
Like, really screwed them up.
531
00:30:45,051 --> 00:30:47,095
And the way
that she was with me in DOS
532
00:30:47,679 --> 00:30:49,097
makes sense now.
533
00:30:50,515 --> 00:30:52,058
It was abusive.
It was like being with someone
534
00:30:52,141 --> 00:30:53,101
in an abusive relationship.
535
00:30:53,184 --> 00:30:55,645
Like, she'd be mean
and then I'd--
536
00:30:55,728 --> 00:30:57,730
I'd be like, upset about it.
And she's like,
537
00:30:57,814 --> 00:30:58,940
"Why are you upset?
Don't you see
538
00:30:59,023 --> 00:31:00,567
I'm only doing this
for you and your growth?
539
00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:02,527
Don't you see I'm doing this
'cause I love you?"
540
00:31:02,610 --> 00:31:03,903
(SIGHS)
541
00:31:03,987 --> 00:31:06,322
And obviously, this is what
she's getting from Keith.
542
00:31:08,074 --> 00:31:10,201
Uh, I mean-- (SIGHS)
543
00:31:10,285 --> 00:31:12,912
It's hard to pick a place
to start. Um...
544
00:31:14,289 --> 00:31:18,501
We had no idea that this
is what was going on.
545
00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:26,593
But hearing all the abuses
that she had been subjected to,
546
00:31:26,676 --> 00:31:27,844
uh...
547
00:31:29,178 --> 00:31:31,973
the first thing I felt
was my anger towards her
548
00:31:32,056 --> 00:31:34,058
just kind of dissipate.
549
00:31:36,728 --> 00:31:38,730
Justice is weird
'cause it-- it--
550
00:31:38,813 --> 00:31:41,190
it feels like this is just,
'cause it's coming out
551
00:31:41,274 --> 00:31:42,942
and everything
that Keith is doing
552
00:31:43,026 --> 00:31:44,694
is being exposed.
553
00:31:44,777 --> 00:31:46,821
Still doesn't feel good.
A lot of people are hurt
554
00:31:46,904 --> 00:31:48,448
as the result of one man.
555
00:31:50,199 --> 00:31:51,576
(EXHALES DEEPLY)
556
00:31:57,707 --> 00:32:03,755
NANCY: Keith didn't include
Lauren in DOS for years.
557
00:32:03,838 --> 00:32:07,550
She was only in DOS
a couple weeks more than Sarah.
558
00:32:08,926 --> 00:32:11,638
It wasn't like Lauren had been
in for a really long time.
559
00:32:11,721 --> 00:32:13,181
She-- she wasn't.
560
00:32:13,264 --> 00:32:15,808
She told Sarah about it
'cause she was her best friend.
561
00:32:18,686 --> 00:32:21,481
But everybody
thought Lauren started DOS
562
00:32:21,564 --> 00:32:25,443
because Keith had Lauren
address the community.
563
00:32:25,526 --> 00:32:27,278
And Keith forced her to lie
564
00:32:27,362 --> 00:32:29,405
and say he had nothing
to do with DOS.
565
00:32:32,617 --> 00:32:34,327
TANYA: Ms. Salzman,
you testified
566
00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:37,747
that you lied publicly
within the NXIVM community
567
00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:40,833
about the defendant's
involvement in DOS.
568
00:32:41,542 --> 00:32:42,752
LAUREN: Correct.
569
00:32:42,835 --> 00:32:44,504
TANYA: At some point,
did the defendant release
570
00:32:44,587 --> 00:32:47,256
a public statement
to the NXIVM community?
571
00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:49,175
LAUREN: Yes, he did.
572
00:32:49,258 --> 00:32:51,678
It contained statements
that he was not affiliated
573
00:32:51,761 --> 00:32:55,264
with the sorority, and that
he had little knowledge of it.
574
00:32:58,267 --> 00:33:00,895
TANYA: But you testified earlier
that the DOS meetings
575
00:33:00,978 --> 00:33:03,064
where the defendant attended
were recorded?
576
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:06,442
Yes.
577
00:33:06,526 --> 00:33:09,696
-♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
-(MACHINE BEEPING)
578
00:34:32,904 --> 00:34:36,699
I think branding
is a very specific method
579
00:34:36,783 --> 00:34:39,035
of control over someone.
580
00:34:39,118 --> 00:34:42,038
I think it's violent,
I think it's possessive.
581
00:34:42,121 --> 00:34:46,459
And having his initials
on these women
582
00:34:46,542 --> 00:34:51,422
showed that he owned them,
and he believed that he did,
583
00:34:51,506 --> 00:34:55,259
based on the fact that they were
all collateralized.
584
00:34:55,343 --> 00:34:57,678
Having women
who were physically scarred
585
00:34:57,762 --> 00:34:59,597
for the rest of their lives,
586
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,850
it is just such
a physical manifestation
587
00:35:02,934 --> 00:35:06,854
of the pain
that Keith Raniere caused.
588
00:35:06,938 --> 00:35:08,523
♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
589
00:35:58,030 --> 00:36:00,366
KEITH: The whole branding thing,
or what they call branding,
590
00:36:00,449 --> 00:36:02,493
people think it's like a bunch
of little girls,
591
00:36:02,577 --> 00:36:04,579
you know, running around
like hot poker brands,
592
00:36:04,662 --> 00:36:05,705
stuff like that.
593
00:36:05,788 --> 00:36:07,999
It's not like they chase
after them, tie them down,
594
00:36:08,082 --> 00:36:10,376
hogtie them or whatever.
This is something
595
00:36:10,459 --> 00:36:12,628
that they asked for,
this sort of a thing,
596
00:36:12,712 --> 00:36:14,338
and all this stuff around it,
but I think
597
00:36:14,422 --> 00:36:17,049
it's historically people
have done this.
598
00:36:17,133 --> 00:36:18,259
Warriors have done this.
599
00:36:18,342 --> 00:36:22,013
Blood brothers have done
this sort of a-- a thing.
600
00:36:22,096 --> 00:36:24,348
And... I think...
601
00:36:25,391 --> 00:36:27,643
as noble as it is to have,
602
00:36:27,727 --> 00:36:31,147
it's ignoble
and shameful to share.
603
00:36:31,230 --> 00:36:34,066
And those people that go
and break a vow,
604
00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:37,320
not only a vow of secrecy,
but a vow of fidelity
605
00:36:37,403 --> 00:36:41,532
to all of their sisters,
and show this sort of a thing.
606
00:36:41,616 --> 00:36:43,284
That-- that's shame on them.
607
00:36:44,285 --> 00:36:45,786
Not shame on the sisters.
608
00:36:49,665 --> 00:36:51,542
NICKI CLYNE: You can say,
609
00:36:51,626 --> 00:36:54,795
"This was a cult
where women were branded."
610
00:36:54,879 --> 00:36:56,339
Right? And that sounds horrible,
611
00:36:56,422 --> 00:36:58,424
and I would never want
to be part of that.
612
00:36:58,507 --> 00:37:02,094
Or you can say,
"There was a group of women
613
00:37:02,178 --> 00:37:05,806
who, in an act of solidarity,
chose to get a brand."
614
00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:08,100
♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
615
00:37:08,184 --> 00:37:11,187
MICHELE HATCHETTE: People love
to get hung up on the branding.
616
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:15,232
I have not said publicly
whether I have a brand or not.
617
00:37:15,316 --> 00:37:18,486
And, like, I-- I don't plan to.
618
00:37:18,569 --> 00:37:20,863
It's nobody's business
what's on my body.
619
00:37:20,947 --> 00:37:24,742
And what I, excuse me,
chose to put on my body.
620
00:37:24,825 --> 00:37:28,663
NICKI: If what was being said
about us as a group within DOS
621
00:37:28,746 --> 00:37:30,331
was happening to men,
622
00:37:30,414 --> 00:37:32,583
it would be viewed
so differently.
623
00:37:32,667 --> 00:37:36,420
If a man came out and said,
like, "Oh, my God, I was part
624
00:37:36,504 --> 00:37:40,508
of this group and I got a brand,
and now my life is ruined."
625
00:37:40,591 --> 00:37:43,302
People would be like,
"Who cares?" (CHUCKLES)
626
00:37:47,723 --> 00:37:50,518
TANYA: After you were branded,
did you have a conversation
627
00:37:50,601 --> 00:37:53,521
with Allison Mack
about having joined DOS?
628
00:37:54,438 --> 00:37:55,481
LAUREN: I did.
629
00:37:55,564 --> 00:37:58,150
Allison was very excited
and enthusiastic.
630
00:37:58,234 --> 00:38:00,569
She was like, "Isn't this great?
631
00:38:00,653 --> 00:38:02,822
Like, not only
do we have this master,
632
00:38:02,905 --> 00:38:05,157
but we all have
these new sister wives."
633
00:38:06,283 --> 00:38:07,868
I came away
from the conversations
634
00:38:07,952 --> 00:38:11,080
with Allison believing
that Keith was having sex
635
00:38:11,163 --> 00:38:13,457
with all of her slaves.
636
00:38:13,541 --> 00:38:17,128
I came home and said to Keith,
"Are you having sex
637
00:38:17,211 --> 00:38:19,297
with Allison's slaves?"
638
00:38:19,380 --> 00:38:21,048
And he said, "No."
639
00:38:21,132 --> 00:38:24,719
So I asked him,
"Why does she think you are?"
640
00:38:24,802 --> 00:38:27,888
And he said,
"Because I didn't correct her."
641
00:38:29,098 --> 00:38:32,393
Later, I went back to Allison
and said,
642
00:38:32,476 --> 00:38:35,021
"Is he fucking your slaves?"
643
00:38:35,104 --> 00:38:37,148
She said, "Just Nicole and Suzy,
644
00:38:37,231 --> 00:38:40,526
but we're going to start working
with India and Jay."
645
00:38:40,609 --> 00:38:43,487
And I said to her,
"When you say 'working,'
646
00:38:43,571 --> 00:38:45,197
do you mean fucking?"
647
00:38:45,281 --> 00:38:46,782
And she said, "Yes."
648
00:38:51,454 --> 00:38:53,247
TANYA: Did the defendant
express interest
649
00:38:53,330 --> 00:38:56,125
in a house that was specific
to DOS?
650
00:38:56,208 --> 00:38:59,587
LAUREN: Yes. He wanted us
to get a sorority house.
651
00:38:59,670 --> 00:39:01,422
A place where DOS could meet.
652
00:39:01,505 --> 00:39:04,258
TANYA: Can you describe
these meetings to the jury?
653
00:39:04,341 --> 00:39:05,885
LAUREN: At the start
of every meeting,
654
00:39:05,968 --> 00:39:07,928
we would take
a naked group photo
655
00:39:08,012 --> 00:39:10,097
and send it to Keith.
656
00:39:10,181 --> 00:39:12,683
The photograph had
to be full frontal nude.
657
00:39:12,767 --> 00:39:14,935
We were to look uniform
and happy,
658
00:39:15,019 --> 00:39:17,271
and our brands had to show.
659
00:39:17,355 --> 00:39:19,648
If we weren't happy,
we got feedback
660
00:39:19,732 --> 00:39:21,567
that we needed
to retake the picture.
661
00:39:22,943 --> 00:39:25,321
Oftentimes,
we'd discuss enrollment
662
00:39:25,404 --> 00:39:28,407
or recruitment,
or look into buying toys
663
00:39:28,491 --> 00:39:30,076
for Keith's planned dungeon.
664
00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:32,787
TANYA: A dungeon
in the context of DOS?
665
00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:33,913
LAUREN: Yes.
666
00:39:33,996 --> 00:39:36,123
♪ (TENSE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
667
00:39:36,207 --> 00:39:40,795
LAUREN: It was going to be
like a BDSM sex torture dungeon.
668
00:39:40,878 --> 00:39:43,005
They had ordered a bunch
of things for it.
669
00:39:44,048 --> 00:39:45,299
He said it was for the people
670
00:39:45,382 --> 00:39:47,551
who were the most committed
to growth.
671
00:39:50,721 --> 00:39:51,764
What is...
672
00:39:54,225 --> 00:39:58,187
the "Good Boy Vibrating
Remote Puppy Plug"?
673
00:39:58,270 --> 00:40:03,317
This was in court? Oh, my God.
(GASPS)
674
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,028
I don't know
what BDSM stands for.
675
00:40:06,112 --> 00:40:07,154
Can you tell me?
676
00:40:07,238 --> 00:40:08,531
-CREW MEMBER: Bondage.
-Bondage.
677
00:40:08,614 --> 00:40:10,157
-CREW MEMBER: And domination.
-And domination.
678
00:40:10,241 --> 00:40:11,951
-CREW MEMBER: And sadomasochism.
-And sadomasochism.
679
00:40:12,034 --> 00:40:15,621
I did not know that was going on
anywhere near my company.
680
00:40:15,704 --> 00:40:19,291
(LAUGHS) I'm not a good
sex cult leader. It's true.
681
00:40:19,375 --> 00:40:21,293
Because I don't even know
what these things are.
682
00:40:21,377 --> 00:40:24,255
And I'm kind of horrified,
but also interested
683
00:40:24,338 --> 00:40:27,842
because I've never even
seen things like this before.
684
00:40:27,925 --> 00:40:29,552
♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
685
00:40:31,637 --> 00:40:35,141
Very crucial to consent
within the BDSM community
686
00:40:35,224 --> 00:40:37,393
is that you can stop
at any time.
687
00:40:37,476 --> 00:40:40,563
You can take that consent away
at any time.
688
00:40:40,646 --> 00:40:44,442
And so here the idea
with collateral
689
00:40:44,525 --> 00:40:47,570
was that you can
never take it back.
690
00:40:47,653 --> 00:40:50,489
You can never get
that stuff back.
691
00:40:50,573 --> 00:40:54,076
So you have to do
whatever is being asked of you.
692
00:40:57,037 --> 00:40:59,248
VERO: That was the deal.
693
00:40:59,331 --> 00:41:02,543
You leave,
your collateral is released.
694
00:41:04,128 --> 00:41:05,880
You must obey.
695
00:41:05,963 --> 00:41:08,924
It is exactly the opposite
of what we teach.
696
00:41:09,550 --> 00:41:11,510
Being responsible?
697
00:41:11,594 --> 00:41:13,053
How can you be responsible
698
00:41:13,137 --> 00:41:15,139
if you're not choosing
for yourself?
699
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,727
It's impossible. It's twisted.
700
00:41:23,063 --> 00:41:25,191
One day, my master told me
701
00:41:25,274 --> 00:41:28,360
that she was gonna make
this video of me,
702
00:41:28,444 --> 00:41:32,573
telling lies about people
very close to me,
703
00:41:32,656 --> 00:41:35,201
that if the video
were to be released,
704
00:41:35,284 --> 00:41:37,661
they would be deeply harmed.
705
00:41:37,745 --> 00:41:42,416
Keith said that that video
was good collateral for me
706
00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:44,543
because I was an agent
of truth.
707
00:41:45,336 --> 00:41:46,921
♪ (MUSIC INTENSIFIES) ♪
708
00:41:47,004 --> 00:41:48,047
(CELL PHONE CHIMES)
709
00:42:05,981 --> 00:42:07,066
VERO: At some point,
710
00:42:07,149 --> 00:42:09,652
my master threatened
to release my collateral.
711
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,697
Keith wrote me
that he didn't believe
712
00:42:13,781 --> 00:42:15,741
that she would release
my collateral,
713
00:42:15,824 --> 00:42:18,911
but would never give
the assurance.
714
00:42:18,994 --> 00:42:22,748
And I realized,
this was not just an exercise.
715
00:42:24,166 --> 00:42:27,253
The way I could see it,
I had three options.
716
00:42:27,336 --> 00:42:29,922
To uphold my vow
and to stay in DOS,
717
00:42:31,090 --> 00:42:32,883
and to... (SIGHS)
718
00:42:35,886 --> 00:42:36,887
...to be blackmailed
719
00:42:36,971 --> 00:42:38,847
for the rest of my life,
basically.
720
00:42:38,931 --> 00:42:41,517
My second option was...
721
00:42:43,227 --> 00:42:44,270
to leave...
722
00:42:45,521 --> 00:42:47,231
and have my collateral released.
723
00:42:48,482 --> 00:42:50,067
Or the third option...
724
00:42:51,193 --> 00:42:53,445
end my life. Like, you know...
725
00:42:54,863 --> 00:42:56,991
♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
726
00:42:57,074 --> 00:43:01,787
VERO: I sent a video to Keith
saying that I was leaving.
727
00:43:01,870 --> 00:43:04,790
I can't go on with the vow.
I'm not--
728
00:43:04,873 --> 00:43:08,377
I'm not the right person
for this kind of vow.
729
00:43:08,460 --> 00:43:11,297
And I-- I hope
you will understand me.
730
00:43:12,798 --> 00:43:16,468
So I left DOS
before I was branded.
731
00:43:16,552 --> 00:43:19,346
But my collateral
is still out there
732
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:22,474
and that haunts me every day.
733
00:43:25,185 --> 00:43:27,605
♪ (TENSE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
734
00:43:27,688 --> 00:43:30,357
TANYA: Ms. Salzman,
at some point, were you invited
735
00:43:30,441 --> 00:43:33,652
to a recommitment
ceremony in Mexico?
736
00:43:33,736 --> 00:43:35,154
LAUREN: I was.
737
00:43:35,237 --> 00:43:38,991
In June 2017, DOS became public,
738
00:43:39,074 --> 00:43:42,286
and so a lot of the ongoing
operations stopped.
739
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,747
And then after New Year's,
740
00:43:44,830 --> 00:43:47,166
Keith wanted to get things
going again.
741
00:43:48,417 --> 00:43:52,046
I got a call
from another first line master.
742
00:43:52,129 --> 00:43:53,630
She said it would be really nice
743
00:43:53,714 --> 00:43:57,217
if we did something special
for Keith during the ceremony.
744
00:43:57,301 --> 00:43:59,094
I can't remember
her exact words,
745
00:43:59,178 --> 00:44:01,764
but I interpreted it
as group sex.
746
00:44:02,973 --> 00:44:05,476
Then I started texting Keith.
747
00:44:05,559 --> 00:44:08,354
I said,
"Is this what you think of me?
748
00:44:08,437 --> 00:44:10,105
Is this what you want from me?"
749
00:44:10,189 --> 00:44:13,776
And he said,
"Look, you have control issues.
750
00:44:13,859 --> 00:44:17,112
And they interfere
with so many things that you do.
751
00:44:17,196 --> 00:44:18,697
Until you're willing
to surrender
752
00:44:18,781 --> 00:44:20,532
to anything and everything,
753
00:44:20,616 --> 00:44:22,659
you're never going
to get through this issue."
754
00:44:23,410 --> 00:44:24,661
And I was like,
755
00:44:24,745 --> 00:44:28,290
"There has to be another way
for me to grow that isn't this."
756
00:44:28,374 --> 00:44:30,793
And he said, "There isn't."
757
00:44:30,876 --> 00:44:34,088
Now, I had no way of growing
except surrendering
758
00:44:34,171 --> 00:44:35,881
to a group blowjob.
759
00:44:37,299 --> 00:44:39,593
But I decided to believe Keith
760
00:44:39,676 --> 00:44:41,887
and go to the recommitment
ceremony.
761
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:46,183
TANYA: Can you describe
the trip?
762
00:44:46,266 --> 00:44:49,353
LAUREN: It was in Chacala,
which is a small fishing village
763
00:44:49,436 --> 00:44:52,648
about an hour and a half outside
of Puerto Vallarta, Mexico.
764
00:44:54,483 --> 00:44:56,318
When we came over to the house,
765
00:44:56,402 --> 00:44:58,779
Keith wasn't feeling well.
766
00:44:58,862 --> 00:45:01,240
He asked me if I wanted
to take a nap.
767
00:45:01,323 --> 00:45:04,535
We laid down, and I started
to calm down a bit.
768
00:45:04,618 --> 00:45:07,746
At some point, I got up
and went to the kitchen.
769
00:45:11,208 --> 00:45:14,795
Suddenly, one of the other
DOS members came running in.
770
00:45:14,878 --> 00:45:17,214
She said the police
were at the door.
771
00:45:17,297 --> 00:45:18,715
They're here for Keith.
772
00:45:21,718 --> 00:45:24,388
I immediately went
into "protect Keith" mode.
773
00:45:30,561 --> 00:45:31,728
(DOOR LOCK CLICKING)
774
00:45:31,812 --> 00:45:34,314
LAUREN: The police started
banging at the door.
775
00:45:34,398 --> 00:45:35,732
(BANGING ON DOOR)
776
00:45:35,816 --> 00:45:38,068
(POLICE OFFICER
SHOUTING IN SPANISH)
777
00:45:38,152 --> 00:45:40,612
-LAUREN: I just kept thinking...
-(BANGING CONTINUES)
778
00:45:40,696 --> 00:45:43,031
...they might just shoot
through this door.
779
00:45:45,576 --> 00:45:47,536
KEITH:
Love is the greatest fight.
780
00:45:47,619 --> 00:45:49,455
Our commitment is our power.
781
00:45:49,538 --> 00:45:51,623
Love is pain.
782
00:45:51,707 --> 00:45:53,417
You're going to have to fight.
783
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:56,462
(DISTORTED VOICE ECHOING)
784
00:45:57,296 --> 00:46:00,757
♪ (MUSIC CRESCENDOS, FADES) ♪
785
00:46:00,841 --> 00:46:04,344
(INDISTINCT YELLING)
786
00:46:04,428 --> 00:46:07,306
LAUREN: At that point,
I was completely frantic.
787
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:10,684
And in a moment
of absolute fear,
788
00:46:10,768 --> 00:46:12,352
I called out Keith's name.
789
00:46:12,936 --> 00:46:14,062
(INAUDIBLE)
790
00:46:14,771 --> 00:46:16,773
♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
791
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,321
LAUREN: For months after that,
I felt like such a failure...
792
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,533
because I hadn't been
strong enough to protect him
793
00:46:26,617 --> 00:46:27,784
at all costs.
794
00:46:31,038 --> 00:46:33,165
TANYA: Were you surprised
that the defendant
795
00:46:33,248 --> 00:46:34,541
went into the walk-in closet
796
00:46:34,625 --> 00:46:36,710
when Mexican law enforcement
arrived?
797
00:46:36,793 --> 00:46:38,128
♪ (SORROWFUL MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
798
00:46:38,212 --> 00:46:40,422
I was so surprised.
799
00:46:40,506 --> 00:46:42,633
Everything I was teaching
in NXIVM,
800
00:46:42,716 --> 00:46:44,009
all centered around the fact
801
00:46:44,092 --> 00:46:46,303
that we can live
this principled life.
802
00:46:48,847 --> 00:46:52,017
That day,
I chose what I believed
803
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:54,728
we had been training for
this entire time,
804
00:46:54,811 --> 00:46:58,190
which was to choose love
over everything else.
805
00:46:58,273 --> 00:47:01,318
Including the possibility
of losing my life.
806
00:47:01,401 --> 00:47:03,529
(APPLAUSE)
807
00:47:03,612 --> 00:47:06,698
It never ever crossed my mind
808
00:47:06,782 --> 00:47:09,660
that if Keith and I
were in this situation...
809
00:47:10,994 --> 00:47:13,497
he wouldn't choose
the exact same thing.
810
00:47:15,832 --> 00:47:19,753
It never occurred to me
that I would choose Keith...
811
00:47:21,004 --> 00:47:23,298
and Keith would choose Keith.
812
00:47:40,399 --> 00:47:42,317
♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪
813
00:47:42,401 --> 00:47:43,735
(SNIFFLES)
814
00:47:47,656 --> 00:47:49,908
MARK VICENTE: I'm very unhappy
for Lauren...
815
00:47:50,826 --> 00:47:52,286
but I'm happy
that this is coming out
816
00:47:52,369 --> 00:47:54,162
because this is the kind
of thing--
817
00:47:54,830 --> 00:47:56,623
This is the darkness.
818
00:47:56,707 --> 00:47:59,001
-This is the darkness.
-(SARAH SOBBING)
819
00:47:59,585 --> 00:48:00,627
I still think
820
00:48:00,711 --> 00:48:02,004
she can have a life now
if she wants it.
821
00:48:02,087 --> 00:48:04,214
She can still have a child,
maybe not conventionally,
822
00:48:04,298 --> 00:48:06,550
but she can. (SNIFFLES)
823
00:48:06,633 --> 00:48:08,510
You know?
We're gonna talk again.
824
00:48:10,429 --> 00:48:12,806
I know we will. I don't know
if we'll be friends again.
825
00:48:12,889 --> 00:48:14,391
Maybe we will. I don't know.
826
00:48:16,393 --> 00:48:17,936
I feel so bad for her.
827
00:48:19,062 --> 00:48:20,397
It's so terrible.
828
00:48:23,025 --> 00:48:25,569
(GROANS) Man, I have
so many questions for her.
829
00:48:26,945 --> 00:48:27,946
(SIGHS)
830
00:48:38,290 --> 00:48:42,169
MICHELLE SALZMAN: My sister,
she's destroyed by this.
831
00:48:42,252 --> 00:48:45,797
She was destroyed by it.
And-- and it-- it's--
832
00:48:45,881 --> 00:48:48,258
it's fucking terrible.
833
00:48:48,342 --> 00:48:50,135
And there's not a lot of,
you know...
834
00:48:51,470 --> 00:48:53,680
It's like... (SIGHS)
835
00:48:53,764 --> 00:48:56,016
"Oh, my God. Why didn't--
why didn't we just see
836
00:48:56,099 --> 00:48:58,685
how bad it really was?"
837
00:48:58,769 --> 00:49:01,897
There was always like,
"Well, he must know better.
838
00:49:01,980 --> 00:49:05,484
He must know what he's doing.
He's Keith."
839
00:49:05,567 --> 00:49:07,736
♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
840
00:49:07,819 --> 00:49:08,945
MICHELLE:
There was a bunch of stuff
841
00:49:09,029 --> 00:49:11,365
that I'm not comfortable
in talking about.
842
00:49:11,448 --> 00:49:13,659
Absolutely happened
that I never shared with my mom,
843
00:49:13,742 --> 00:49:15,035
and I never shared with Lauren,
844
00:49:15,118 --> 00:49:17,788
and I never shared with anybody
because he asked me not to.
845
00:49:19,122 --> 00:49:22,751
I remember having a conversation
with him when I was 18,
846
00:49:22,834 --> 00:49:24,670
and he wanted me to commit
to something,
847
00:49:24,753 --> 00:49:27,422
some sort of something
kind of relationship with him,
848
00:49:27,506 --> 00:49:29,716
that I didn't know
that I was agreeing to,
849
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,552
or understood what it was
that he was asking.
850
00:49:32,636 --> 00:49:34,012
At some point,
it became a breach.
851
00:49:34,096 --> 00:49:37,641
I broke some sort of commitment
to him,
852
00:49:37,724 --> 00:49:41,436
and then my relationship
with him was broken forever
853
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,522
and I was always supposed
to repair it.
854
00:49:43,605 --> 00:49:45,774
And you came after me
for 20 years.
855
00:49:45,857 --> 00:49:48,193
I have to repair
this relationship with Keith,
856
00:49:48,276 --> 00:49:51,279
and if I don't...
I don't know what.
857
00:49:52,781 --> 00:49:55,325
It's even creepier
that he wanted
858
00:49:55,409 --> 00:49:56,702
to have a relationship with me
859
00:49:56,785 --> 00:49:57,994
when he was having
a relationship
860
00:49:58,078 --> 00:49:59,663
with my sister.
I mean, who does that?
861
00:49:59,746 --> 00:50:01,415
And I had a boyfriend
at the time,
862
00:50:01,498 --> 00:50:03,709
and I was like,
"Who is this guy?
863
00:50:03,792 --> 00:50:06,545
He's 40-something years old
and I'm 18."
864
00:50:07,337 --> 00:50:08,964
What the fuck was going on?
865
00:50:17,723 --> 00:50:20,684
NANCY:
Keith never liked Michelle.
866
00:50:20,767 --> 00:50:22,102
But I didn't realize
it was because
867
00:50:22,185 --> 00:50:23,603
she wouldn't have sex with him.
868
00:50:25,439 --> 00:50:26,481
So...
869
00:50:28,066 --> 00:50:29,484
I guess I should've.
870
00:50:38,493 --> 00:50:41,705
I think it was like
an experiment with him.
871
00:50:41,788 --> 00:50:43,373
I started thinking that...
872
00:50:44,583 --> 00:50:48,378
he enjoyed hurting us.
873
00:50:49,838 --> 00:50:53,842
He just wanted to see how far
he could push us. (SNIFFLES)
874
00:50:53,925 --> 00:50:55,969
Like how much could
he get away with.
875
00:50:57,637 --> 00:50:59,306
He never intended to have a baby
with her,
876
00:50:59,389 --> 00:51:01,808
and he used those things
as excuses
877
00:51:01,892 --> 00:51:02,976
so he could blame her
878
00:51:03,059 --> 00:51:05,896
for why he didn't follow through
on his promise.
879
00:51:07,230 --> 00:51:08,732
He knew what he was doing.
880
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,863
He stole
her child-bearing years.
881
00:51:17,532 --> 00:51:20,368
(SNIFFLES)
He practically broke her.
882
00:51:25,874 --> 00:51:26,917
I mean, she went to college,
883
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,627
but she was a baby
when she met him.
884
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:31,171
She was not worldly.
885
00:51:33,089 --> 00:51:34,591
And she was not strong.
886
00:51:36,259 --> 00:51:37,302
Like me.
887
00:51:39,054 --> 00:51:40,138
(SNIFFLES)
888
00:51:41,181 --> 00:51:44,810
(SIGHS) He really affected
my family badly.
889
00:51:47,020 --> 00:51:48,563
And I let that happen.
890
00:51:50,273 --> 00:51:51,691
I couldn't see it.
891
00:51:52,984 --> 00:51:54,361
(SOBS)
892
00:51:58,156 --> 00:51:59,574
(SNIFFLES)
893
00:52:15,549 --> 00:52:17,133
(KEYS JINGLING)
894
00:52:17,759 --> 00:52:19,678
(KEYBOARD KEYS CLACKING)
895
00:52:22,973 --> 00:52:25,433
EMILY SAUL: With Lauren,
she did know a lot.
896
00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:28,854
She stayed a very long time.
897
00:52:28,937 --> 00:52:31,690
This is obviously
a very intelligent woman.
898
00:52:31,773 --> 00:52:34,359
But it's really what she said
at the end I think encapsulated
899
00:52:34,442 --> 00:52:36,278
why she stayed there
for as long as she did
900
00:52:36,361 --> 00:52:38,655
and why she did what she did,
and it's because
901
00:52:38,738 --> 00:52:41,283
she loved--
because she loved Keith Raniere.
902
00:52:41,366 --> 00:52:43,201
And she thought he, like--
903
00:52:43,285 --> 00:52:45,537
She-- It was too hard for her
to not believe
904
00:52:45,620 --> 00:52:47,831
that he was the most ethical man
in the world.
905
00:52:49,958 --> 00:52:52,085
When you are in that position,
like, who knows
906
00:52:52,168 --> 00:52:54,629
what any of us is capable of?
907
00:52:58,633 --> 00:53:00,385
♪ (TENSE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪
908
00:53:02,721 --> 00:53:04,848
TANYA: Ms. Salzman,
do you remember
909
00:53:04,931 --> 00:53:07,726
the defendant approaching you
with a plan regarding
910
00:53:07,809 --> 00:53:10,353
a young woman from Mexico?
911
00:53:10,854 --> 00:53:11,897
LAUREN: Yes.
912
00:53:13,023 --> 00:53:15,358
Keith told me that there
are some serious problems
913
00:53:15,442 --> 00:53:17,277
with this young lady.
914
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,238
That she wasn't doing the work
that she committed to
915
00:53:20,322 --> 00:53:23,533
and that she was stealing
from the community.
916
00:53:23,617 --> 00:53:27,746
Keith told me that Dani
should be given an ultimatum.
917
00:53:27,829 --> 00:53:30,916
She needed to go into her room
with no distractions
918
00:53:30,999 --> 00:53:33,877
and come up with a plan
for how to fix her breach
919
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:35,629
or be sent back to Mexico.
920
00:53:39,132 --> 00:53:41,217
How do you feel
about participating
921
00:53:41,301 --> 00:53:43,178
in this Dani project now?
922
00:53:43,261 --> 00:53:44,846
I think it's horrendous.
923
00:53:45,889 --> 00:53:49,768
I mean, of all the crimes
that I committed...
924
00:53:51,061 --> 00:53:54,481
I think this is the worst thing
that I did.
925
00:53:59,778 --> 00:54:02,989
JUDGE GARAUFIS: The government
may call its next witness.
926
00:54:03,073 --> 00:54:04,866
MOIRA PENZA: The government
calls the witness
927
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:07,202
who will be identified
as Daniela.
928
00:54:09,496 --> 00:54:11,623
♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪
929
00:54:12,666 --> 00:54:14,000
♪ ("UNRAVELING"
BY BONNIE PIESSE PLAYING) ♪
930
00:54:14,084 --> 00:54:17,170
♪ Everything
Everything is wrong ♪
931
00:54:18,546 --> 00:54:23,051
♪ There's nothing left
Of how we knew it ♪
932
00:54:24,844 --> 00:54:30,100
♪ Breaking down
All the crooked lines ♪
933
00:54:30,767 --> 00:54:34,062
♪ Unraveling ♪
934
00:54:37,273 --> 00:54:41,945
♪ Everything
Everything is gone ♪
935
00:54:43,071 --> 00:54:47,325
♪ There's no way back
You can't erase it ♪
936
00:54:49,494 --> 00:54:55,500
♪ Memories are falling
To the ground ♪
937
00:54:55,583 --> 00:54:58,253
♪ Spiraling ♪
938
00:55:01,548 --> 00:55:04,968
♪ It's who you ♪
939
00:55:05,051 --> 00:55:10,098
♪ Who you are ♪
940
00:55:13,768 --> 00:55:17,981
♪ Not who you ♪
941
00:55:18,064 --> 00:55:22,068
♪ Believe in ♪
942
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,497
♪ (SONG CONCLUDES) ♪