1 00:00:06,172 --> 00:00:07,674 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 2 00:00:10,260 --> 00:00:12,554 NANCY SALZMAN: What is the nature of an ethical breach 3 00:00:12,637 --> 00:00:14,681 and why does it occur? 4 00:00:14,764 --> 00:00:17,600 What does it mean when you commit an ethical breach 5 00:00:17,684 --> 00:00:19,853 and what are its effects? 6 00:00:19,936 --> 00:00:22,397 Get together with your groups and your facilitators 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:23,898 and discuss those questions. 8 00:00:23,982 --> 00:00:26,484 And then we'll meet back here and discuss them together. 9 00:00:28,611 --> 00:00:30,572 The ultimate crime was this thing he called 10 00:00:30,655 --> 00:00:32,741 "an ethical breach," and why it's an ethical breach 11 00:00:32,824 --> 00:00:35,577 is because supposedly you go against your own morality 12 00:00:35,660 --> 00:00:39,539 to do something that gives you a benefit that's easy, 13 00:00:39,622 --> 00:00:41,499 as opposed to doing the hard thing 14 00:00:41,583 --> 00:00:44,836 that allows you to be a better person. 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,689 "Repairing an ethical breach is vital to all of humanity. 16 00:01:04,773 --> 00:01:06,524 It's vital to love." 17 00:01:11,696 --> 00:01:13,531 "The moment you don't repair a breach, 18 00:01:13,615 --> 00:01:15,366 you're destroying your morality." 19 00:01:18,203 --> 00:01:22,040 I started thinking, are any of us ever good? 20 00:01:22,123 --> 00:01:24,751 Is there anyone ever that gets involved 21 00:01:24,834 --> 00:01:26,920 with Keith Raniere that their ethical breach 22 00:01:27,003 --> 00:01:29,297 doesn't end up on the table as an issue, 23 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:32,509 that he then has power over them? 24 00:01:32,592 --> 00:01:36,179 There was a certain point when I realized nobody 25 00:01:36,262 --> 00:01:39,432 ever was able to heal an ethical breach with Keith. 26 00:01:41,935 --> 00:01:44,437 And once he had an ethical breach on you, 27 00:01:44,521 --> 00:01:46,606 he used it to torture you. 28 00:01:55,031 --> 00:01:59,577 ♪ ("DREAM STATE" FT. BONNIE PIESSE BY SON LUX PLAYING) ♪ 29 00:01:59,661 --> 00:02:02,163 ♪ Days we were young ♪ 30 00:02:02,247 --> 00:02:04,833 ♪ We took photographs of ♪ 31 00:02:04,916 --> 00:02:07,877 ♪ Everything we could see ♪ 32 00:02:07,961 --> 00:02:11,339 ♪ We had to run from it ♪ 33 00:02:11,422 --> 00:02:14,509 ♪ Priest and prophetess We were ♪ 34 00:02:14,592 --> 00:02:18,304 ♪ Nothing we would defy ♪ 35 00:02:19,097 --> 00:02:23,268 ♪ Oh! Invisible skin ♪ 36 00:02:23,351 --> 00:02:27,021 ♪ Where is the world within? ♪ 37 00:02:27,105 --> 00:02:32,193 ♪ Invincible skin It's how we all begin ♪ 38 00:02:34,779 --> 00:02:36,573 ♪ (SONG CONCLUDES) ♪ 39 00:02:37,782 --> 00:02:41,578 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 40 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,167 REPORTER 1: The second week in the federal NXIVM trial 41 00:02:48,251 --> 00:02:50,420 wraps up in Brooklyn with Lauren Salzman 42 00:02:50,503 --> 00:02:51,921 on the stand. 43 00:02:52,005 --> 00:02:53,756 REPORTER 2: When it comes to the big names in the NXIVM trial, 44 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,843 Lauren Salzman is one that tends to get overshadowed. 45 00:02:56,926 --> 00:02:59,429 She isn't the NXIVM co-founder, her mother is. 46 00:02:59,512 --> 00:03:02,056 But Lauren Salzman is the first co-conspirator 47 00:03:02,140 --> 00:03:04,142 to testify against Keith Raniere. 48 00:03:24,746 --> 00:03:26,039 (SARAH EDMONDSON SIGHS) 49 00:03:43,514 --> 00:03:46,893 (INHALES) This is Nancy, Lauren, and Michelle. 50 00:03:48,144 --> 00:03:50,897 This is the part that just blows my mind. 51 00:03:50,980 --> 00:03:53,024 She was knowingly putting Keith's initials 52 00:03:53,107 --> 00:03:55,401 on other women's bodies and not telling them. 53 00:03:55,735 --> 00:03:58,071 (SIGHS) 54 00:04:00,531 --> 00:04:01,991 She did hurt people. 55 00:04:02,075 --> 00:04:03,493 And she hurt her closest friends, 56 00:04:03,576 --> 00:04:06,704 and she lost an opportunity to have a wonderful friendship 57 00:04:06,788 --> 00:04:08,748 with many people, myself included. 58 00:04:09,666 --> 00:04:11,960 And it's gonna be lonely there. 59 00:04:12,043 --> 00:04:14,212 Wherever she ends up, whether it's jail or-- 60 00:04:14,295 --> 00:04:15,922 (SNIFFS) You know. 61 00:04:16,923 --> 00:04:18,508 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 62 00:04:24,931 --> 00:04:26,265 TANYA HAJJAR: So, Ms. Salzman, 63 00:04:27,266 --> 00:04:29,060 how long have you known the defendant? 64 00:04:30,603 --> 00:04:31,771 Almost 20 years. 65 00:04:33,189 --> 00:04:36,150 I was a senior in college when my mom and Keith decided 66 00:04:36,234 --> 00:04:39,445 they were going to start a human potential school. 67 00:04:39,529 --> 00:04:41,406 So, I thought it would be a surprise 68 00:04:41,489 --> 00:04:43,157 that Vanguard was going to be here. 69 00:04:43,241 --> 00:04:46,661 He's going to introduce a brand-new module tonight. 70 00:04:46,744 --> 00:04:50,248 And I got a preview, so you're in for a treat. 71 00:04:50,331 --> 00:04:51,666 LAUREN SALZMAN: And when I graduated, 72 00:04:51,749 --> 00:04:54,210 my mom told me they were going to teach classes 73 00:04:54,293 --> 00:04:56,170 that were going to be good for figuring out 74 00:04:56,254 --> 00:04:59,465 what I wanted to do in this next stage of my life. 75 00:04:59,549 --> 00:05:00,925 And she made a deal with me 76 00:05:01,009 --> 00:05:03,720 that if I came into the classes for six months, 77 00:05:03,803 --> 00:05:05,013 then she would support me 78 00:05:05,096 --> 00:05:06,973 no matter what I wanted to do after that. 79 00:05:10,351 --> 00:05:12,645 NANCY: Keith used to call Lauren "Chip." 80 00:05:12,729 --> 00:05:14,564 "Chip off the old block." 81 00:05:14,647 --> 00:05:17,525 He said he had never seen a mother and daughter 82 00:05:17,608 --> 00:05:20,236 who were so similar and so connected. 83 00:05:23,072 --> 00:05:25,825 (STUDENTS APPLAUDING) 84 00:05:34,625 --> 00:05:36,502 (ALL CHUCKLE) 85 00:05:36,586 --> 00:05:38,212 -(STUDENTS APPLAUD) -♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 86 00:05:38,296 --> 00:05:39,547 NANCY: I always used to say to her, 87 00:05:39,630 --> 00:05:41,591 "Lauren, you're gonna have to be better than anyone. 88 00:05:41,674 --> 00:05:45,303 Because everybody will think you got this job because of me. 89 00:05:45,386 --> 00:05:48,306 And so you have to work harder." And she did. 90 00:06:17,043 --> 00:06:18,336 ALL: Thank you. 91 00:06:18,419 --> 00:06:20,046 (STUDENTS APPLAUD) 92 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,340 ♪ (PIANO MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 93 00:06:27,929 --> 00:06:29,472 NANCY: My daughter was the happiest 94 00:06:29,555 --> 00:06:30,765 I had ever seen her. 95 00:06:32,141 --> 00:06:34,644 But also I had a concern. 96 00:06:34,727 --> 00:06:37,814 Like, was it really that she just loved ESP, 97 00:06:37,897 --> 00:06:40,650 or was something else going on behind the scenes? 98 00:06:42,318 --> 00:06:43,903 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 99 00:06:43,986 --> 00:06:45,279 (CHUCKLES) 100 00:06:48,199 --> 00:06:49,367 (KISSING) 101 00:06:49,450 --> 00:06:50,993 -LAUREN: See you tonight. -KEITH RANIERE: See you later. 102 00:06:51,077 --> 00:06:52,870 TANYA: So, Ms. Salzman, 103 00:06:52,954 --> 00:06:55,164 how long did you have a sexual relationship 104 00:06:55,248 --> 00:06:56,874 with the defendant? 105 00:06:56,958 --> 00:07:00,711 LAUREN: Mostly between 2001 and 2008. 106 00:07:00,795 --> 00:07:02,130 KEITH: Are you wearing underwear? 107 00:07:02,213 --> 00:07:03,798 -LAUREN: Yes. -KEITH: Aw! 108 00:07:03,881 --> 00:07:05,341 I always wear underwear, Keith. 109 00:07:05,424 --> 00:07:07,593 TANYA: Now, at the time you began your relationship, 110 00:07:07,677 --> 00:07:10,680 did you openly discuss or acknowledge it? 111 00:07:10,763 --> 00:07:13,057 LAUREN: No. He asked me not to. 112 00:07:16,227 --> 00:07:17,979 TANYA: Was it difficult not to tell your mother 113 00:07:18,062 --> 00:07:19,814 about the relationship? 114 00:07:19,897 --> 00:07:22,483 LAUREN: Yeah, it was really difficult for me. 115 00:07:55,141 --> 00:07:56,350 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 116 00:07:57,977 --> 00:07:59,896 NANCY: I did not know about Lauren's relationship 117 00:07:59,979 --> 00:08:01,856 with Keith for five years. 118 00:08:03,191 --> 00:08:05,443 And it wasn't until things were going badly 119 00:08:05,526 --> 00:08:06,777 that Lauren told me. 120 00:08:08,988 --> 00:08:09,989 (SIGHS) 121 00:08:11,407 --> 00:08:14,035 It was-- I had mixed feelings. I felt like, in a way, 122 00:08:14,118 --> 00:08:17,330 it was a betrayal. But I also felt like... 123 00:08:19,707 --> 00:08:22,043 that maybe it was wrong to feel that way. 124 00:08:22,126 --> 00:08:25,254 Like, I mean, he's... 125 00:08:25,338 --> 00:08:27,673 He was supposed to be this very ethical person, 126 00:08:27,757 --> 00:08:30,760 and she wasn't a child, but she was. 127 00:08:30,843 --> 00:08:33,012 The fact that he kept it from me... 128 00:08:34,055 --> 00:08:36,474 was-- That's terrible. 129 00:08:36,557 --> 00:08:37,767 Because he knew that-- 130 00:08:37,850 --> 00:08:39,560 He had to know that it wasn't okay. 131 00:08:41,395 --> 00:08:43,439 Now, in retrospect, 132 00:08:43,522 --> 00:08:47,151 I know that he started right from the beginning. 133 00:08:48,611 --> 00:08:50,613 After college, she moved back in with me. 134 00:08:50,696 --> 00:08:54,116 And Keith wanted her to move out. 135 00:08:55,326 --> 00:08:59,413 And he said I was keeping her dependent, 136 00:08:59,497 --> 00:09:00,915 and it was really bad. 137 00:09:00,998 --> 00:09:05,086 And he told me I had to charge her rent. 138 00:09:07,213 --> 00:09:09,548 He convinced her to move out. 139 00:09:09,632 --> 00:09:12,885 And she said that immediately he was on her. 140 00:09:12,969 --> 00:09:16,472 And she said, "He just wanted to get me away from you 141 00:09:16,555 --> 00:09:17,974 so he could do that." 142 00:09:25,690 --> 00:09:26,941 TANYA: Ms. Salzman, 143 00:09:27,024 --> 00:09:28,693 did you ever discuss having children 144 00:09:28,776 --> 00:09:31,737 -with the defendant? -LAUREN: Yes. 145 00:09:31,821 --> 00:09:33,698 We started talking about having children 146 00:09:33,781 --> 00:09:36,784 within the first five years of our relationship. 147 00:09:36,867 --> 00:09:38,995 I had expressed that I wanted to have children. 148 00:09:39,078 --> 00:09:41,872 And he said that that was something he could do. 149 00:09:41,956 --> 00:09:44,792 And as I got closer to 30, I started pushing harder 150 00:09:44,875 --> 00:09:46,586 for that to happen. 151 00:09:46,669 --> 00:09:49,338 He told me that the reason we aren't having children 152 00:09:49,422 --> 00:09:51,507 was because I didn't have a good work output 153 00:09:51,591 --> 00:09:55,011 and that I hadn't lost weight and my state was very low. 154 00:09:55,094 --> 00:09:57,847 So I focused on changing all of those things. 155 00:09:59,098 --> 00:10:00,308 (STATIC) 156 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:03,602 KEITH: Now, how about-- 157 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,295 (INDISTINCT CHATTER, CHUCKLING) 158 00:10:29,378 --> 00:10:32,673 LAUREN: Then, in 2011, Keith said it was a good time 159 00:10:32,757 --> 00:10:35,009 to start trying to have children. 160 00:10:39,138 --> 00:10:41,724 But then, one night in volleyball... 161 00:10:42,808 --> 00:10:45,561 I was excited and roughhousing. 162 00:10:45,644 --> 00:10:48,481 And I jumped on another male NXIVM member. 163 00:10:48,564 --> 00:10:51,108 He said I straddled him and that I communicated 164 00:10:51,192 --> 00:10:53,569 that I was open to having relationships 165 00:10:53,652 --> 00:10:55,321 with other men. 166 00:10:55,404 --> 00:10:58,324 And that I had really disrespected him. 167 00:10:58,407 --> 00:11:01,452 Keith said I committed an ethical breach. 168 00:11:06,457 --> 00:11:09,502 When there was a breach, you would humble yourself 169 00:11:09,585 --> 00:11:11,962 and make a commitment and plan to fix it. 170 00:11:12,963 --> 00:11:14,799 So I stayed home for a whole weekend, 171 00:11:14,882 --> 00:11:18,844 and I came up with a very involved seven-page plan. 172 00:11:18,928 --> 00:11:21,931 TANYA: I'm showing you government exhibit 1497. 173 00:11:23,224 --> 00:11:25,393 Can you read the text of that email? 174 00:11:26,685 --> 00:11:28,687 LAUREN: "I'm so sorry, Keith. 175 00:11:28,771 --> 00:11:32,900 I'm perceived as easy or available for a relationship, 176 00:11:32,983 --> 00:11:37,363 or viewed as jumping from man to man, so not taken seriously. 177 00:11:37,446 --> 00:11:40,241 This degrades me and also sets a bad example 178 00:11:40,324 --> 00:11:43,494 in the organization and reflects poorly on Keith 179 00:11:43,577 --> 00:11:47,706 and his choice to be with me or have a child with me." 180 00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:49,750 "I damaged the way others will view, 181 00:11:49,834 --> 00:11:52,461 relate with, and treat our child, 182 00:11:52,545 --> 00:11:56,132 so I'm hurting someone who doesn't even exist yet." 183 00:12:20,823 --> 00:12:22,783 LAUREN: Keith said it was a pattern. 184 00:12:22,867 --> 00:12:26,871 That the way I relate with men disrespected our relationship. 185 00:12:26,954 --> 00:12:30,499 Which was another reason why we couldn't have children 186 00:12:30,583 --> 00:12:32,877 and that I had to work on myself first. 187 00:12:35,087 --> 00:12:36,380 TANYA: During that period of time, 188 00:12:36,464 --> 00:12:39,592 were you in any other sexual or romantic relationships 189 00:12:39,675 --> 00:12:41,802 with anyone besides the defendant? 190 00:12:42,178 --> 00:12:43,429 No. 191 00:12:43,512 --> 00:12:46,974 TANYA: So was your relationship with the defendant monogamous? 192 00:12:47,641 --> 00:12:48,559 LAUREN: Only for me. 193 00:12:48,642 --> 00:12:50,227 TANYA: And was that a requirement? 194 00:12:50,936 --> 00:12:52,188 LAUREN: Yes. 195 00:12:56,317 --> 00:12:57,735 NANCY: I know that the government thinks 196 00:12:57,818 --> 00:12:59,403 this is a sex case. 197 00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:02,031 I don't think this is a sex case. 198 00:13:02,114 --> 00:13:04,658 I think this is an abuse of power case. 199 00:13:04,742 --> 00:13:06,285 They're making sex the big thing 200 00:13:06,368 --> 00:13:08,662 because that's what everybody wants to buy. 201 00:13:08,746 --> 00:13:09,830 It's power. 202 00:13:10,789 --> 00:13:12,374 And the way he abused it with women 203 00:13:12,458 --> 00:13:16,128 was to control them through these romantic relationships. 204 00:13:19,381 --> 00:13:22,510 VERO JASPEADO: I was in love with an idea of who-- 205 00:13:22,593 --> 00:13:25,012 what I thought he was. 206 00:13:25,095 --> 00:13:27,556 I believed he was... 207 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,685 he was this man upholding these amazing values. 208 00:13:34,271 --> 00:13:37,441 At some point, Nancy Salzman approached me and she said 209 00:13:37,525 --> 00:13:41,362 that Keith wanted to spend time with me. 210 00:13:41,445 --> 00:13:45,491 And then just a few hours later, Lauren called me on my mobile. 211 00:13:45,574 --> 00:13:47,368 And she said that-- 212 00:13:47,451 --> 00:13:51,664 that she had been talking to Keith and to her mom, 213 00:13:51,747 --> 00:13:53,916 and that Keith wanted to meet with me. 214 00:13:53,999 --> 00:13:57,211 And that it was such an honor. "I just wanted you to know this. 215 00:13:57,294 --> 00:14:00,422 Whatever you choose is fine, but I wanted you to know, 216 00:14:00,506 --> 00:14:05,094 that this is a high privilege that you have right now." 217 00:14:05,177 --> 00:14:07,263 The Dalai Lama flies to see him. 218 00:14:07,346 --> 00:14:09,682 You know, if the Dalai Lama comes to see him, 219 00:14:09,765 --> 00:14:11,809 it's like, this is a huge opportunity. 220 00:14:13,227 --> 00:14:14,436 You could say that I had, 221 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,731 like, an infatuation with my teacher, you know. 222 00:14:17,815 --> 00:14:20,568 Through the years, we became closer. 223 00:14:20,651 --> 00:14:23,195 And eventually, our relationship 224 00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:25,197 transformed to something intimate. 225 00:14:27,116 --> 00:14:30,244 He just asked me to be discreet. 226 00:14:30,327 --> 00:14:34,290 He sees more than I do. He believes it's a better idea 227 00:14:34,373 --> 00:14:37,376 to keep our relationship a secret. 228 00:14:37,459 --> 00:14:39,003 Of course, I understand. 229 00:14:46,719 --> 00:14:49,597 TANYA: So, Ms. Salzman, did you ever express wanting 230 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,890 to have a relationship with someone else 231 00:14:51,974 --> 00:14:53,350 to the defendant? 232 00:14:54,101 --> 00:14:57,104 LAUREN: Yes. In 2013, 233 00:14:57,187 --> 00:14:59,815 I told Keith that I had been spending time with someone, 234 00:14:59,898 --> 00:15:02,276 and I shared a kiss with that person. 235 00:15:02,359 --> 00:15:04,528 I was hoping that he would end the relationship 236 00:15:04,612 --> 00:15:06,113 because I did that. 237 00:15:06,196 --> 00:15:08,198 But he told me if I stayed, 238 00:15:08,282 --> 00:15:10,409 he would reinvest in our relationship. 239 00:15:10,492 --> 00:15:12,244 And that we could have children soon. 240 00:15:12,328 --> 00:15:16,248 I said, "Soon like a year, or soon like five years?" 241 00:15:16,332 --> 00:15:19,543 And he said, "Within that time frame." 242 00:15:19,627 --> 00:15:22,504 But then he told me he was considering resigning 243 00:15:22,588 --> 00:15:25,507 as Vanguard because of what I had done. 244 00:15:25,591 --> 00:15:26,508 (CROWD APPLAUDING) 245 00:15:26,592 --> 00:15:28,594 LAUREN: It was a huge deal to me. 246 00:15:28,677 --> 00:15:30,346 I couldn't make sense of why he would leave 247 00:15:30,429 --> 00:15:34,016 the community without a leader because I had done this. 248 00:15:34,099 --> 00:15:36,018 GROUP: 249 00:15:36,101 --> 00:15:38,187 (CHEERING, APPLAUDING) 250 00:15:38,270 --> 00:15:40,689 LAUREN: So I decided to stay. 251 00:15:40,773 --> 00:15:45,152 I thought if I could prove to him that I was a good person, 252 00:15:45,235 --> 00:15:47,821 then I could believe it myself. 253 00:15:47,905 --> 00:15:49,990 I mean, I guess I thought it would help justify 254 00:15:50,074 --> 00:15:53,494 all the choices that I made over the last 20 years. 255 00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:08,550 MARC AGNIFILO: You know, it was just a-- 256 00:16:08,634 --> 00:16:11,053 a very, very sad, difficult day, 257 00:16:11,136 --> 00:16:12,971 I think, for-- for everybody. 258 00:16:17,101 --> 00:16:18,894 Keith's perspective is that 259 00:16:18,977 --> 00:16:21,939 Lauren had certain things that in Keith's opinion 260 00:16:22,022 --> 00:16:23,273 she had to work through. 261 00:16:23,357 --> 00:16:26,777 And I think in Keith's mind, if Lauren worked through them, 262 00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:29,697 maybe they could have this relationship 263 00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:32,157 that Keith had in mind for them. 264 00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:37,037 Whether Lauren didn't get there because of Lauren 265 00:16:37,121 --> 00:16:38,288 or Lauren didn't get there 266 00:16:38,372 --> 00:16:42,209 because there is no "there" to get to, you know, is-- 267 00:16:42,292 --> 00:16:44,336 I don't know the answer to that. 268 00:16:45,087 --> 00:16:46,839 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 269 00:16:46,922 --> 00:16:48,799 There are lots of things that we do to each other 270 00:16:48,882 --> 00:16:52,261 that are hurtful, you know. Not all of them, 271 00:16:52,344 --> 00:16:54,930 and maybe even very few of them, are criminal. 272 00:17:06,984 --> 00:17:08,819 NANCY: It's very sad. 273 00:17:08,902 --> 00:17:11,655 Like, I had a whole life before I met Keith. 274 00:17:11,739 --> 00:17:15,576 Like a whole, normal, traditional life. 275 00:17:15,659 --> 00:17:18,370 The thing that saddens me is the women 276 00:17:18,454 --> 00:17:19,496 in Lauren's generation 277 00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:23,459 who spent their whole twenties and thirties 278 00:17:23,542 --> 00:17:26,628 with-- with Keith promising them things 279 00:17:26,712 --> 00:17:28,964 and never had an experience with the real world. 280 00:17:29,048 --> 00:17:31,550 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 281 00:17:31,633 --> 00:17:34,219 NANCY: When I got here, they were all fighting over 282 00:17:34,303 --> 00:17:37,556 who was gonna get the special babies from Keith. 283 00:17:37,639 --> 00:17:43,645 Like, he promised Barbara, Pam, and Karen babies. 284 00:17:43,729 --> 00:17:45,814 They-- they had names for them. 285 00:17:45,898 --> 00:17:48,817 Like, I mean, they really believed they existed. 286 00:17:48,901 --> 00:17:51,945 I found out little by little all the women didn't have babies 287 00:17:52,029 --> 00:17:53,697 because Keith made them think 288 00:17:53,781 --> 00:17:56,617 that they could have babies, like, anytime. 289 00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:58,994 And they were all in their forties and almost 50. 290 00:17:59,077 --> 00:18:01,163 One of the women had been on the pill 291 00:18:01,246 --> 00:18:03,499 because she had skin problems. And she went off the pill 292 00:18:03,582 --> 00:18:05,042 and found out she'd been through menopause 293 00:18:05,125 --> 00:18:06,210 and didn't know it. 294 00:18:06,293 --> 00:18:08,420 And was still thinking she was gonna get pregnant 295 00:18:08,504 --> 00:18:09,588 and have a baby. 296 00:18:11,465 --> 00:18:13,342 It was crazy. 297 00:18:13,425 --> 00:18:17,846 And then he promised the next generation babies. 298 00:18:20,808 --> 00:18:23,435 VERO: We were talking and he was grabbing my hands. 299 00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:25,521 And at some point, 300 00:18:25,604 --> 00:18:28,398 he grabbed his hand and he put it on my belly. 301 00:18:28,482 --> 00:18:31,235 And he looked at me and he said, 302 00:18:31,318 --> 00:18:33,320 "Do you wanna have a baby with me?" 303 00:18:35,739 --> 00:18:37,407 I said, 304 00:18:37,491 --> 00:18:40,452 "I need to think about it," or something like that. 305 00:18:40,536 --> 00:18:41,912 And then I wrote to him and I said, 306 00:18:41,995 --> 00:18:45,165 "Of course I want to, you know. Of course, I just got... 307 00:18:45,249 --> 00:18:46,667 scared a little bit, but, uh, 308 00:18:46,750 --> 00:18:49,878 I think it's a beautiful thing what you're asking me." 309 00:18:49,962 --> 00:18:52,881 When I found out that he had told the same thing 310 00:18:52,965 --> 00:18:55,717 to other friends of mine... 311 00:18:57,386 --> 00:18:58,554 That is so cruel. 312 00:18:58,637 --> 00:19:01,557 You don't-- You don't play with somebody's motherhood. 313 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,393 You don't do that. You don't do that. 314 00:19:08,564 --> 00:19:12,526 NANCY: He had me working with Vero Jaspeado 315 00:19:12,609 --> 00:19:16,530 about her discontent about the organization. 316 00:19:16,613 --> 00:19:20,117 He called it "management." I had to manage people. 317 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,912 It was such a diversion from what I was trying to do. 318 00:19:23,996 --> 00:19:25,080 But if I didn't do it, 319 00:19:25,163 --> 00:19:28,542 I was afraid my organization would be destroyed. 320 00:19:28,625 --> 00:19:30,460 And-- and I'm telling you, I felt responsible 321 00:19:30,544 --> 00:19:33,380 -for these women. -(CROWD APPLAUDING) 322 00:19:35,591 --> 00:19:40,679 NANCY: In a company, you need a human resources department. 323 00:19:40,762 --> 00:19:43,557 Lauren and I were the Human Resources Department. 324 00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:46,560 VERO: If someone was having a reaction, 325 00:19:46,643 --> 00:19:50,981 Nancy or Lauren, or Karen, or one of the high ranks 326 00:19:51,064 --> 00:19:53,734 would be sent in to smooth things over 327 00:19:53,817 --> 00:19:56,695 and help us work our alleged issue. 328 00:19:56,778 --> 00:19:59,823 In my case, Keith spoke at a training 329 00:19:59,907 --> 00:20:02,701 about my entitlement and my defiance, 330 00:20:02,784 --> 00:20:05,662 and therefore everyone felt entitled 331 00:20:05,746 --> 00:20:07,497 to point that out to me. 332 00:20:07,581 --> 00:20:10,751 To the point that I completely believed it myself. 333 00:20:10,834 --> 00:20:12,002 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 334 00:20:12,085 --> 00:20:14,129 VERO: I want to offer my apologies. 335 00:20:15,172 --> 00:20:19,051 I know very well how and... 336 00:20:20,135 --> 00:20:22,804 and when I have spoken without honor. 337 00:20:22,888 --> 00:20:25,432 And-- (SIGHS) 338 00:20:25,515 --> 00:20:29,561 And-- and it's so painful. 339 00:20:29,645 --> 00:20:33,649 Sometimes, we're just in awe to realize what you've built. 340 00:20:33,732 --> 00:20:36,443 And-- and... 341 00:20:36,526 --> 00:20:39,947 I don't think I fully understand the-- 342 00:20:40,030 --> 00:20:44,493 the-- the damage that I-- I've done. (SNIFFLES) 343 00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:47,788 And, uh, I commit and I promise... 344 00:20:47,871 --> 00:20:50,540 (SNIFFLES, INHALES) ...I'm changing now. 345 00:20:52,584 --> 00:20:56,338 VERO: I believe that many of the tools that we used in ESP 346 00:20:56,421 --> 00:20:58,674 were meant to 347 00:20:58,757 --> 00:21:01,426 stop listening to your intuition. 348 00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:03,345 To gut feeling. 349 00:21:03,428 --> 00:21:07,891 I strongly stopped listening to my intuition. 350 00:21:08,475 --> 00:21:09,518 And... 351 00:21:10,477 --> 00:21:13,647 And that was-- That was so important. 352 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,985 One day, he asked me to meet him. 353 00:21:21,321 --> 00:21:23,323 It was very late. I think it was, like, 354 00:21:23,407 --> 00:21:25,659 3:00 in the morning or something like that. 355 00:21:26,451 --> 00:21:28,745 So, we laid together. 356 00:21:28,829 --> 00:21:33,375 I put his hand, like, next to-- to my face. 357 00:21:34,292 --> 00:21:39,006 And I am a woman, and I know how 358 00:21:39,089 --> 00:21:41,008 female fluids smell. 359 00:21:42,509 --> 00:21:44,469 And he smelled like that. 360 00:21:44,553 --> 00:21:47,556 He said that-- 361 00:21:47,639 --> 00:21:51,226 that he had a couple other relationships. 362 00:21:51,309 --> 00:21:53,437 He asked me how I felt about it. 363 00:21:54,438 --> 00:21:56,148 And I said that-- 364 00:21:57,607 --> 00:21:59,276 Well, that it was uncomfortable. 365 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,362 You know, and that I was trying to-- 366 00:22:02,446 --> 00:22:07,868 to hold my reactions, you know. But it was painful. 367 00:22:07,951 --> 00:22:10,829 KEITH: You have a relationship with a person, 368 00:22:10,912 --> 00:22:13,415 and you trust them, you believe in them. 369 00:22:13,498 --> 00:22:15,917 And then one day you find they've lied to you. 370 00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:18,295 No matter how many times they live up to their word, 371 00:22:18,378 --> 00:22:20,380 there's still the one where they didn't. 372 00:22:21,006 --> 00:22:22,090 So the question is, 373 00:22:22,174 --> 00:22:24,551 can you ever believe in them absolutely again? 374 00:22:24,634 --> 00:22:26,219 There comes a point where there are-- 375 00:22:26,303 --> 00:22:28,930 is no truth and is no lie. It doesn't matter. 376 00:22:29,014 --> 00:22:31,475 As long as it matters to me, I can't be free. 377 00:22:31,558 --> 00:22:33,977 As long as it doesn't matter to me, 378 00:22:34,061 --> 00:22:35,103 then I am free. 379 00:22:35,187 --> 00:22:37,856 What matters to me is my experience of you. 380 00:22:37,939 --> 00:22:39,024 You understand? 381 00:22:40,692 --> 00:22:43,320 VERO: I was thinking, "Why didn't you tell me before?" 382 00:22:43,403 --> 00:22:45,739 These are things that if you say before, 383 00:22:45,822 --> 00:22:47,616 then I have-- I... I have-- 384 00:22:48,617 --> 00:22:51,578 Like, more opportunity to choose. 385 00:22:51,661 --> 00:22:54,748 And he told me, uh-- That it was my-- my-- 386 00:22:54,831 --> 00:22:59,127 my entitlement, that I wanted him for me or... 387 00:23:00,045 --> 00:23:03,924 that I could feel jealousy or... 388 00:23:05,509 --> 00:23:07,052 Basically, that it was my issue. 389 00:23:12,057 --> 00:23:13,475 NANCY: He wanted the women 390 00:23:13,558 --> 00:23:16,520 that he was in relationship with to get to the point 391 00:23:16,603 --> 00:23:19,773 where they didn't have reactions anymore. 392 00:23:19,856 --> 00:23:22,776 If they had a reaction to him with another woman, 393 00:23:22,859 --> 00:23:24,903 he would hold that over their head 394 00:23:24,986 --> 00:23:27,405 and say, "Well, you have an attachment. 395 00:23:27,489 --> 00:23:29,449 You shouldn't care! 396 00:23:29,533 --> 00:23:31,493 And I'm doing this for you." 397 00:23:36,206 --> 00:23:40,043 And I remember this one particular time 398 00:23:40,127 --> 00:23:43,755 I saw him do something that I was very upset about 399 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:45,340 with a woman. 400 00:23:45,423 --> 00:23:50,637 And I found it completely inappropriate. And I told him. 401 00:23:51,972 --> 00:23:53,515 And he said to me... 402 00:23:54,933 --> 00:23:59,813 "You have no right to think you know 403 00:23:59,896 --> 00:24:01,857 what what I'm doing means. 404 00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:05,819 You have no way of understanding the way that I work with people. 405 00:24:05,902 --> 00:24:09,239 And you have no right to question 406 00:24:09,322 --> 00:24:11,283 how I work with women! 407 00:24:11,366 --> 00:24:16,121 If you ever do it again, ever, you will never see me again. 408 00:24:16,204 --> 00:24:18,748 We will never speak again." 409 00:24:21,459 --> 00:24:25,422 And I was horrified. Horrified. 410 00:24:26,298 --> 00:24:28,008 I-- I didn't know what to do! 411 00:24:29,509 --> 00:24:31,511 And I somehow... 412 00:24:32,637 --> 00:24:33,930 made myself wrong. 413 00:24:36,558 --> 00:24:38,185 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 414 00:24:42,355 --> 00:24:45,734 VERO: I was in love! I was gonna have a baby with this man! 415 00:24:45,817 --> 00:24:49,112 It was hard for me to... 416 00:24:50,071 --> 00:24:51,740 (SIGHS) ...to be objective! 417 00:24:53,575 --> 00:24:55,202 NANCY: Everything is so blurred 418 00:24:55,285 --> 00:24:59,456 because we trusted that he was teaching us 419 00:24:59,539 --> 00:25:03,084 something that we didn't know about being ethical 420 00:25:03,168 --> 00:25:04,502 and living an ethical life. 421 00:25:04,586 --> 00:25:07,422 And so we committed ourselves to something that we thought 422 00:25:07,505 --> 00:25:12,886 was real and principled. And we did things for him... 423 00:25:14,137 --> 00:25:17,182 because he convinced us that that's what we were doing. 424 00:25:19,226 --> 00:25:21,353 I resented that in the background 425 00:25:21,436 --> 00:25:23,855 of everything I did was damage control 426 00:25:23,939 --> 00:25:26,691 -about Keith's sex life. -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING, CHEERING) 427 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,027 NANCY: Is it bad? Yes! 428 00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:31,196 But you weigh it against all these people 429 00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:32,697 who are having a great experience 430 00:25:32,781 --> 00:25:34,491 and it's just his little world. 431 00:25:36,326 --> 00:25:39,788 I used my authority 432 00:25:39,871 --> 00:25:42,082 to edify Keith Raniere, 433 00:25:42,165 --> 00:25:46,628 and he took the credibility that I gave him... 434 00:25:48,046 --> 00:25:50,173 and he abused many people. 435 00:25:52,592 --> 00:25:55,553 And I don't know... 436 00:25:56,513 --> 00:25:58,556 how to live with that. 437 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,185 And that's my cross to bear in my life. 438 00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:04,771 So where is, um... 439 00:26:04,854 --> 00:26:07,190 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 440 00:26:09,526 --> 00:26:13,029 NANCY: He had so many women he had to balance all the time. 441 00:26:13,113 --> 00:26:16,741 It became harder to get people into these commitments. 442 00:26:16,825 --> 00:26:18,076 Like with Lauren, 443 00:26:18,159 --> 00:26:21,329 he had to promise her constantly that he was coming back, 444 00:26:21,413 --> 00:26:22,914 that they were gonna have a baby. 445 00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:24,457 All of these things! 446 00:26:24,541 --> 00:26:27,168 And I think he created DOS maybe 447 00:26:27,252 --> 00:26:30,422 as a way of getting them to have this vow 448 00:26:30,505 --> 00:26:32,090 that they would never leave. 449 00:26:39,097 --> 00:26:40,849 TANYA: Ms. Salzman, I want to go back 450 00:26:40,932 --> 00:26:43,393 to discuss your initial recruitment into DOS. 451 00:26:43,977 --> 00:26:45,937 Looking back now, 452 00:26:46,021 --> 00:26:47,647 do you see any significance 453 00:26:47,731 --> 00:26:50,275 as to the timing of your recruitment? 454 00:26:50,358 --> 00:26:52,319 LAUREN: Yes, I do. 455 00:26:52,402 --> 00:26:55,447 Keith told me that he had started a sorority, 456 00:26:55,530 --> 00:26:57,699 that there were seven founding members, 457 00:26:57,782 --> 00:26:59,326 and that they were going to invite me 458 00:26:59,409 --> 00:27:01,494 to be a founding member. 459 00:27:01,578 --> 00:27:04,414 Then a trusted friend approached me 460 00:27:04,497 --> 00:27:05,999 and we had a meeting in her car, 461 00:27:06,082 --> 00:27:08,877 where she introduced the concept of collateral. 462 00:27:10,462 --> 00:27:12,964 She suggested naked pictures. 463 00:27:13,048 --> 00:27:16,509 I took three pictures of myself that I put on a USB drive 464 00:27:16,593 --> 00:27:18,053 and I gave them to her. 465 00:27:18,136 --> 00:27:20,513 Then once I did that, she explained 466 00:27:20,597 --> 00:27:23,141 that this is a lifetime vow of obedience. 467 00:27:24,809 --> 00:27:27,562 Ten days later, he told me he was having a child 468 00:27:27,645 --> 00:27:29,439 with another woman. Marianna. 469 00:27:30,231 --> 00:27:32,359 I had a complete meltdown. 470 00:27:32,442 --> 00:27:35,862 He stole from me and himself the ability to know 471 00:27:35,945 --> 00:27:39,491 if I would have stayed without a collateralized vow. 472 00:27:39,574 --> 00:27:42,869 He responded by telling me that my emotional reaction 473 00:27:42,952 --> 00:27:44,537 was making things harder. 474 00:27:45,872 --> 00:27:48,625 Love, if you will, is the greatest fight. 475 00:27:48,708 --> 00:27:51,294 It fights against comfort. It fights against our bodies. 476 00:27:51,378 --> 00:27:54,005 It fights against our emotions. It fights against our words. 477 00:27:54,089 --> 00:27:56,383 Hopefully, when you take on commitments, 478 00:27:56,466 --> 00:27:57,717 when you take on vows, 479 00:27:57,801 --> 00:27:59,636 you're going to have to fight for them 480 00:27:59,719 --> 00:28:02,263 harder than you imagined. 481 00:28:02,347 --> 00:28:06,059 That's how we know love by how much pain we can feel. 482 00:28:06,142 --> 00:28:08,645 LAUREN: Ultimately, I apologized to Keith 483 00:28:08,728 --> 00:28:11,606 for my immaturity and committed to staying with him, 484 00:28:11,689 --> 00:28:15,527 knowing there wouldn't be a relationship or children. 485 00:28:20,031 --> 00:28:23,535 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 486 00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:27,747 (SCOFFS) I find today to be really disturbing. 487 00:28:28,498 --> 00:28:29,582 Uh... 488 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,627 It was really hard to stomach. 489 00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:35,463 If someone who is so devoted to him... 490 00:28:35,547 --> 00:28:36,589 I mean, she loves this man. 491 00:28:36,673 --> 00:28:38,383 She wants to have children with him. 492 00:28:38,466 --> 00:28:40,301 And then he has the gall to approach her 493 00:28:40,385 --> 00:28:43,513 after she has waited for so many years and say, 494 00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:46,683 "Actually, I think I'm going to have a child with Marianna." 495 00:28:46,766 --> 00:28:50,395 And then when she gets upset about that... 496 00:28:50,478 --> 00:28:54,357 it's thrown back in her face as the reason that she's not fit 497 00:28:54,441 --> 00:28:56,234 to bear children with Keith. 498 00:29:00,196 --> 00:29:02,449 It's just such a mind fuck. 499 00:29:02,532 --> 00:29:04,409 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 500 00:29:18,131 --> 00:29:19,299 ANTHONY AMES: All right. 501 00:29:21,342 --> 00:29:23,511 SARAH: "In 2005, he took nude pictures of her 502 00:29:23,595 --> 00:29:26,598 on a bed in his library." Gross. 503 00:29:27,682 --> 00:29:31,019 "Raniere advised her on her ideal weight." 504 00:29:31,102 --> 00:29:34,898 Manipulative fuck. Sorry, I'm getting a little angry now. 505 00:29:36,774 --> 00:29:38,943 I wouldn't say I wanted to be branded per se, 506 00:29:39,027 --> 00:29:42,697 but I wanted to prove to Keith that I was the kind of person 507 00:29:42,780 --> 00:29:45,575 who was committed to growth. Oh, Lauren. 508 00:29:45,658 --> 00:29:46,868 ANTHONY: "Lauren wanted to believe 509 00:29:46,951 --> 00:29:48,786 that all of this was for her growth, 510 00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:50,580 and she wanted to make everyone proud of her 511 00:29:50,663 --> 00:29:51,998 and wanted to have a child with Keith. 512 00:29:52,081 --> 00:29:54,542 When DOS was exposed, there was a renewed discussion 513 00:29:54,626 --> 00:29:56,628 on the subject of Lauren having children with Keith. 514 00:29:56,711 --> 00:29:58,880 Keith said he would do some kind of fertility treatments 515 00:29:58,963 --> 00:30:01,382 to have a child with Lauren if Lauren stayed." 516 00:30:01,466 --> 00:30:04,636 -What the fuck? -Motherfucker. 517 00:30:04,719 --> 00:30:06,262 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 518 00:30:08,431 --> 00:30:10,391 I'm just... (SIGHS) 519 00:30:12,435 --> 00:30:15,855 It's just, like, I don't know. (INHALES) 520 00:30:19,150 --> 00:30:20,610 Like... 521 00:30:20,693 --> 00:30:22,278 Even through betrayal 522 00:30:22,362 --> 00:30:24,739 with Lauren and how she lied to me, 523 00:30:24,822 --> 00:30:27,283 there's always been this through line, 524 00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:29,577 like, that I still cared about her. 525 00:30:29,661 --> 00:30:31,704 You know, that's why I didn't take the photo down of her, 526 00:30:31,788 --> 00:30:32,830 my bridesmaid. 527 00:30:33,957 --> 00:30:36,000 I'm not saying her choices are okay, 528 00:30:36,084 --> 00:30:38,127 but she was fucked with. 529 00:30:38,211 --> 00:30:42,590 She has been fucked with, and consequently fucked... 530 00:30:42,674 --> 00:30:44,968 other people too. Like, really screwed them up. 531 00:30:45,051 --> 00:30:47,095 And the way that she was with me in DOS 532 00:30:47,679 --> 00:30:49,097 makes sense now. 533 00:30:50,515 --> 00:30:52,058 It was abusive. It was like being with someone 534 00:30:52,141 --> 00:30:53,101 in an abusive relationship. 535 00:30:53,184 --> 00:30:55,645 Like, she'd be mean and then I'd-- 536 00:30:55,728 --> 00:30:57,730 I'd be like, upset about it. And she's like, 537 00:30:57,814 --> 00:30:58,940 "Why are you upset? Don't you see 538 00:30:59,023 --> 00:31:00,567 I'm only doing this for you and your growth? 539 00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:02,527 Don't you see I'm doing this 'cause I love you?" 540 00:31:02,610 --> 00:31:03,903 (SIGHS) 541 00:31:03,987 --> 00:31:06,322 And obviously, this is what she's getting from Keith. 542 00:31:08,074 --> 00:31:10,201 Uh, I mean-- (SIGHS) 543 00:31:10,285 --> 00:31:12,912 It's hard to pick a place to start. Um... 544 00:31:14,289 --> 00:31:18,501 We had no idea that this is what was going on. 545 00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:26,593 But hearing all the abuses that she had been subjected to, 546 00:31:26,676 --> 00:31:27,844 uh... 547 00:31:29,178 --> 00:31:31,973 the first thing I felt was my anger towards her 548 00:31:32,056 --> 00:31:34,058 just kind of dissipate. 549 00:31:36,728 --> 00:31:38,730 Justice is weird 'cause it-- it-- 550 00:31:38,813 --> 00:31:41,190 it feels like this is just, 'cause it's coming out 551 00:31:41,274 --> 00:31:42,942 and everything that Keith is doing 552 00:31:43,026 --> 00:31:44,694 is being exposed. 553 00:31:44,777 --> 00:31:46,821 Still doesn't feel good. A lot of people are hurt 554 00:31:46,904 --> 00:31:48,448 as the result of one man. 555 00:31:50,199 --> 00:31:51,576 (EXHALES DEEPLY) 556 00:31:57,707 --> 00:32:03,755 NANCY: Keith didn't include Lauren in DOS for years. 557 00:32:03,838 --> 00:32:07,550 She was only in DOS a couple weeks more than Sarah. 558 00:32:08,926 --> 00:32:11,638 It wasn't like Lauren had been in for a really long time. 559 00:32:11,721 --> 00:32:13,181 She-- she wasn't. 560 00:32:13,264 --> 00:32:15,808 She told Sarah about it 'cause she was her best friend. 561 00:32:18,686 --> 00:32:21,481 But everybody thought Lauren started DOS 562 00:32:21,564 --> 00:32:25,443 because Keith had Lauren address the community. 563 00:32:25,526 --> 00:32:27,278 And Keith forced her to lie 564 00:32:27,362 --> 00:32:29,405 and say he had nothing to do with DOS. 565 00:32:32,617 --> 00:32:34,327 TANYA: Ms. Salzman, you testified 566 00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:37,747 that you lied publicly within the NXIVM community 567 00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:40,833 about the defendant's involvement in DOS. 568 00:32:41,542 --> 00:32:42,752 LAUREN: Correct. 569 00:32:42,835 --> 00:32:44,504 TANYA: At some point, did the defendant release 570 00:32:44,587 --> 00:32:47,256 a public statement to the NXIVM community? 571 00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:49,175 LAUREN: Yes, he did. 572 00:32:49,258 --> 00:32:51,678 It contained statements that he was not affiliated 573 00:32:51,761 --> 00:32:55,264 with the sorority, and that he had little knowledge of it. 574 00:32:58,267 --> 00:33:00,895 TANYA: But you testified earlier that the DOS meetings 575 00:33:00,978 --> 00:33:03,064 where the defendant attended were recorded? 576 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:06,442 Yes. 577 00:33:06,526 --> 00:33:09,696 -♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ -(MACHINE BEEPING) 578 00:34:32,904 --> 00:34:36,699 I think branding is a very specific method 579 00:34:36,783 --> 00:34:39,035 of control over someone. 580 00:34:39,118 --> 00:34:42,038 I think it's violent, I think it's possessive. 581 00:34:42,121 --> 00:34:46,459 And having his initials on these women 582 00:34:46,542 --> 00:34:51,422 showed that he owned them, and he believed that he did, 583 00:34:51,506 --> 00:34:55,259 based on the fact that they were all collateralized. 584 00:34:55,343 --> 00:34:57,678 Having women who were physically scarred 585 00:34:57,762 --> 00:34:59,597 for the rest of their lives, 586 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,850 it is just such a physical manifestation 587 00:35:02,934 --> 00:35:06,854 of the pain that Keith Raniere caused. 588 00:35:06,938 --> 00:35:08,523 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 589 00:35:58,030 --> 00:36:00,366 KEITH: The whole branding thing, or what they call branding, 590 00:36:00,449 --> 00:36:02,493 people think it's like a bunch of little girls, 591 00:36:02,577 --> 00:36:04,579 you know, running around like hot poker brands, 592 00:36:04,662 --> 00:36:05,705 stuff like that. 593 00:36:05,788 --> 00:36:07,999 It's not like they chase after them, tie them down, 594 00:36:08,082 --> 00:36:10,376 hogtie them or whatever. This is something 595 00:36:10,459 --> 00:36:12,628 that they asked for, this sort of a thing, 596 00:36:12,712 --> 00:36:14,338 and all this stuff around it, but I think 597 00:36:14,422 --> 00:36:17,049 it's historically people have done this. 598 00:36:17,133 --> 00:36:18,259 Warriors have done this. 599 00:36:18,342 --> 00:36:22,013 Blood brothers have done this sort of a-- a thing. 600 00:36:22,096 --> 00:36:24,348 And... I think... 601 00:36:25,391 --> 00:36:27,643 as noble as it is to have, 602 00:36:27,727 --> 00:36:31,147 it's ignoble and shameful to share. 603 00:36:31,230 --> 00:36:34,066 And those people that go and break a vow, 604 00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:37,320 not only a vow of secrecy, but a vow of fidelity 605 00:36:37,403 --> 00:36:41,532 to all of their sisters, and show this sort of a thing. 606 00:36:41,616 --> 00:36:43,284 That-- that's shame on them. 607 00:36:44,285 --> 00:36:45,786 Not shame on the sisters. 608 00:36:49,665 --> 00:36:51,542 NICKI CLYNE: You can say, 609 00:36:51,626 --> 00:36:54,795 "This was a cult where women were branded." 610 00:36:54,879 --> 00:36:56,339 Right? And that sounds horrible, 611 00:36:56,422 --> 00:36:58,424 and I would never want to be part of that. 612 00:36:58,507 --> 00:37:02,094 Or you can say, "There was a group of women 613 00:37:02,178 --> 00:37:05,806 who, in an act of solidarity, chose to get a brand." 614 00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:08,100 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 615 00:37:08,184 --> 00:37:11,187 MICHELE HATCHETTE: People love to get hung up on the branding. 616 00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:15,232 I have not said publicly whether I have a brand or not. 617 00:37:15,316 --> 00:37:18,486 And, like, I-- I don't plan to. 618 00:37:18,569 --> 00:37:20,863 It's nobody's business what's on my body. 619 00:37:20,947 --> 00:37:24,742 And what I, excuse me, chose to put on my body. 620 00:37:24,825 --> 00:37:28,663 NICKI: If what was being said about us as a group within DOS 621 00:37:28,746 --> 00:37:30,331 was happening to men, 622 00:37:30,414 --> 00:37:32,583 it would be viewed so differently. 623 00:37:32,667 --> 00:37:36,420 If a man came out and said, like, "Oh, my God, I was part 624 00:37:36,504 --> 00:37:40,508 of this group and I got a brand, and now my life is ruined." 625 00:37:40,591 --> 00:37:43,302 People would be like, "Who cares?" (CHUCKLES) 626 00:37:47,723 --> 00:37:50,518 TANYA: After you were branded, did you have a conversation 627 00:37:50,601 --> 00:37:53,521 with Allison Mack about having joined DOS? 628 00:37:54,438 --> 00:37:55,481 LAUREN: I did. 629 00:37:55,564 --> 00:37:58,150 Allison was very excited and enthusiastic. 630 00:37:58,234 --> 00:38:00,569 She was like, "Isn't this great? 631 00:38:00,653 --> 00:38:02,822 Like, not only do we have this master, 632 00:38:02,905 --> 00:38:05,157 but we all have these new sister wives." 633 00:38:06,283 --> 00:38:07,868 I came away from the conversations 634 00:38:07,952 --> 00:38:11,080 with Allison believing that Keith was having sex 635 00:38:11,163 --> 00:38:13,457 with all of her slaves. 636 00:38:13,541 --> 00:38:17,128 I came home and said to Keith, "Are you having sex 637 00:38:17,211 --> 00:38:19,297 with Allison's slaves?" 638 00:38:19,380 --> 00:38:21,048 And he said, "No." 639 00:38:21,132 --> 00:38:24,719 So I asked him, "Why does she think you are?" 640 00:38:24,802 --> 00:38:27,888 And he said, "Because I didn't correct her." 641 00:38:29,098 --> 00:38:32,393 Later, I went back to Allison and said, 642 00:38:32,476 --> 00:38:35,021 "Is he fucking your slaves?" 643 00:38:35,104 --> 00:38:37,148 She said, "Just Nicole and Suzy, 644 00:38:37,231 --> 00:38:40,526 but we're going to start working with India and Jay." 645 00:38:40,609 --> 00:38:43,487 And I said to her, "When you say 'working,' 646 00:38:43,571 --> 00:38:45,197 do you mean fucking?" 647 00:38:45,281 --> 00:38:46,782 And she said, "Yes." 648 00:38:51,454 --> 00:38:53,247 TANYA: Did the defendant express interest 649 00:38:53,330 --> 00:38:56,125 in a house that was specific to DOS? 650 00:38:56,208 --> 00:38:59,587 LAUREN: Yes. He wanted us to get a sorority house. 651 00:38:59,670 --> 00:39:01,422 A place where DOS could meet. 652 00:39:01,505 --> 00:39:04,258 TANYA: Can you describe these meetings to the jury? 653 00:39:04,341 --> 00:39:05,885 LAUREN: At the start of every meeting, 654 00:39:05,968 --> 00:39:07,928 we would take a naked group photo 655 00:39:08,012 --> 00:39:10,097 and send it to Keith. 656 00:39:10,181 --> 00:39:12,683 The photograph had to be full frontal nude. 657 00:39:12,767 --> 00:39:14,935 We were to look uniform and happy, 658 00:39:15,019 --> 00:39:17,271 and our brands had to show. 659 00:39:17,355 --> 00:39:19,648 If we weren't happy, we got feedback 660 00:39:19,732 --> 00:39:21,567 that we needed to retake the picture. 661 00:39:22,943 --> 00:39:25,321 Oftentimes, we'd discuss enrollment 662 00:39:25,404 --> 00:39:28,407 or recruitment, or look into buying toys 663 00:39:28,491 --> 00:39:30,076 for Keith's planned dungeon. 664 00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:32,787 TANYA: A dungeon in the context of DOS? 665 00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:33,913 LAUREN: Yes. 666 00:39:33,996 --> 00:39:36,123 ♪ (TENSE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 667 00:39:36,207 --> 00:39:40,795 LAUREN: It was going to be like a BDSM sex torture dungeon. 668 00:39:40,878 --> 00:39:43,005 They had ordered a bunch of things for it. 669 00:39:44,048 --> 00:39:45,299 He said it was for the people 670 00:39:45,382 --> 00:39:47,551 who were the most committed to growth. 671 00:39:50,721 --> 00:39:51,764 What is... 672 00:39:54,225 --> 00:39:58,187 the "Good Boy Vibrating Remote Puppy Plug"? 673 00:39:58,270 --> 00:40:03,317 This was in court? Oh, my God. (GASPS) 674 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,028 I don't know what BDSM stands for. 675 00:40:06,112 --> 00:40:07,154 Can you tell me? 676 00:40:07,238 --> 00:40:08,531 -CREW MEMBER: Bondage. -Bondage. 677 00:40:08,614 --> 00:40:10,157 -CREW MEMBER: And domination. -And domination. 678 00:40:10,241 --> 00:40:11,951 -CREW MEMBER: And sadomasochism. -And sadomasochism. 679 00:40:12,034 --> 00:40:15,621 I did not know that was going on anywhere near my company. 680 00:40:15,704 --> 00:40:19,291 (LAUGHS) I'm not a good sex cult leader. It's true. 681 00:40:19,375 --> 00:40:21,293 Because I don't even know what these things are. 682 00:40:21,377 --> 00:40:24,255 And I'm kind of horrified, but also interested 683 00:40:24,338 --> 00:40:27,842 because I've never even seen things like this before. 684 00:40:27,925 --> 00:40:29,552 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 685 00:40:31,637 --> 00:40:35,141 Very crucial to consent within the BDSM community 686 00:40:35,224 --> 00:40:37,393 is that you can stop at any time. 687 00:40:37,476 --> 00:40:40,563 You can take that consent away at any time. 688 00:40:40,646 --> 00:40:44,442 And so here the idea with collateral 689 00:40:44,525 --> 00:40:47,570 was that you can never take it back. 690 00:40:47,653 --> 00:40:50,489 You can never get that stuff back. 691 00:40:50,573 --> 00:40:54,076 So you have to do whatever is being asked of you. 692 00:40:57,037 --> 00:40:59,248 VERO: That was the deal. 693 00:40:59,331 --> 00:41:02,543 You leave, your collateral is released. 694 00:41:04,128 --> 00:41:05,880 You must obey. 695 00:41:05,963 --> 00:41:08,924 It is exactly the opposite of what we teach. 696 00:41:09,550 --> 00:41:11,510 Being responsible? 697 00:41:11,594 --> 00:41:13,053 How can you be responsible 698 00:41:13,137 --> 00:41:15,139 if you're not choosing for yourself? 699 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,727 It's impossible. It's twisted. 700 00:41:23,063 --> 00:41:25,191 One day, my master told me 701 00:41:25,274 --> 00:41:28,360 that she was gonna make this video of me, 702 00:41:28,444 --> 00:41:32,573 telling lies about people very close to me, 703 00:41:32,656 --> 00:41:35,201 that if the video were to be released, 704 00:41:35,284 --> 00:41:37,661 they would be deeply harmed. 705 00:41:37,745 --> 00:41:42,416 Keith said that that video was good collateral for me 706 00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:44,543 because I was an agent of truth. 707 00:41:45,336 --> 00:41:46,921 ♪ (MUSIC INTENSIFIES) ♪ 708 00:41:47,004 --> 00:41:48,047 (CELL PHONE CHIMES) 709 00:42:05,981 --> 00:42:07,066 VERO: At some point, 710 00:42:07,149 --> 00:42:09,652 my master threatened to release my collateral. 711 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,697 Keith wrote me that he didn't believe 712 00:42:13,781 --> 00:42:15,741 that she would release my collateral, 713 00:42:15,824 --> 00:42:18,911 but would never give the assurance. 714 00:42:18,994 --> 00:42:22,748 And I realized, this was not just an exercise. 715 00:42:24,166 --> 00:42:27,253 The way I could see it, I had three options. 716 00:42:27,336 --> 00:42:29,922 To uphold my vow and to stay in DOS, 717 00:42:31,090 --> 00:42:32,883 and to... (SIGHS) 718 00:42:35,886 --> 00:42:36,887 ...to be blackmailed 719 00:42:36,971 --> 00:42:38,847 for the rest of my life, basically. 720 00:42:38,931 --> 00:42:41,517 My second option was... 721 00:42:43,227 --> 00:42:44,270 to leave... 722 00:42:45,521 --> 00:42:47,231 and have my collateral released. 723 00:42:48,482 --> 00:42:50,067 Or the third option... 724 00:42:51,193 --> 00:42:53,445 end my life. Like, you know... 725 00:42:54,863 --> 00:42:56,991 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 726 00:42:57,074 --> 00:43:01,787 VERO: I sent a video to Keith saying that I was leaving. 727 00:43:01,870 --> 00:43:04,790 I can't go on with the vow. I'm not-- 728 00:43:04,873 --> 00:43:08,377 I'm not the right person for this kind of vow. 729 00:43:08,460 --> 00:43:11,297 And I-- I hope you will understand me. 730 00:43:12,798 --> 00:43:16,468 So I left DOS before I was branded. 731 00:43:16,552 --> 00:43:19,346 But my collateral is still out there 732 00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:22,474 and that haunts me every day. 733 00:43:25,185 --> 00:43:27,605 ♪ (TENSE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 734 00:43:27,688 --> 00:43:30,357 TANYA: Ms. Salzman, at some point, were you invited 735 00:43:30,441 --> 00:43:33,652 to a recommitment ceremony in Mexico? 736 00:43:33,736 --> 00:43:35,154 LAUREN: I was. 737 00:43:35,237 --> 00:43:38,991 In June 2017, DOS became public, 738 00:43:39,074 --> 00:43:42,286 and so a lot of the ongoing operations stopped. 739 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,747 And then after New Year's, 740 00:43:44,830 --> 00:43:47,166 Keith wanted to get things going again. 741 00:43:48,417 --> 00:43:52,046 I got a call from another first line master. 742 00:43:52,129 --> 00:43:53,630 She said it would be really nice 743 00:43:53,714 --> 00:43:57,217 if we did something special for Keith during the ceremony. 744 00:43:57,301 --> 00:43:59,094 I can't remember her exact words, 745 00:43:59,178 --> 00:44:01,764 but I interpreted it as group sex. 746 00:44:02,973 --> 00:44:05,476 Then I started texting Keith. 747 00:44:05,559 --> 00:44:08,354 I said, "Is this what you think of me? 748 00:44:08,437 --> 00:44:10,105 Is this what you want from me?" 749 00:44:10,189 --> 00:44:13,776 And he said, "Look, you have control issues. 750 00:44:13,859 --> 00:44:17,112 And they interfere with so many things that you do. 751 00:44:17,196 --> 00:44:18,697 Until you're willing to surrender 752 00:44:18,781 --> 00:44:20,532 to anything and everything, 753 00:44:20,616 --> 00:44:22,659 you're never going to get through this issue." 754 00:44:23,410 --> 00:44:24,661 And I was like, 755 00:44:24,745 --> 00:44:28,290 "There has to be another way for me to grow that isn't this." 756 00:44:28,374 --> 00:44:30,793 And he said, "There isn't." 757 00:44:30,876 --> 00:44:34,088 Now, I had no way of growing except surrendering 758 00:44:34,171 --> 00:44:35,881 to a group blowjob. 759 00:44:37,299 --> 00:44:39,593 But I decided to believe Keith 760 00:44:39,676 --> 00:44:41,887 and go to the recommitment ceremony. 761 00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:46,183 TANYA: Can you describe the trip? 762 00:44:46,266 --> 00:44:49,353 LAUREN: It was in Chacala, which is a small fishing village 763 00:44:49,436 --> 00:44:52,648 about an hour and a half outside of Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. 764 00:44:54,483 --> 00:44:56,318 When we came over to the house, 765 00:44:56,402 --> 00:44:58,779 Keith wasn't feeling well. 766 00:44:58,862 --> 00:45:01,240 He asked me if I wanted to take a nap. 767 00:45:01,323 --> 00:45:04,535 We laid down, and I started to calm down a bit. 768 00:45:04,618 --> 00:45:07,746 At some point, I got up and went to the kitchen. 769 00:45:11,208 --> 00:45:14,795 Suddenly, one of the other DOS members came running in. 770 00:45:14,878 --> 00:45:17,214 She said the police were at the door. 771 00:45:17,297 --> 00:45:18,715 They're here for Keith. 772 00:45:21,718 --> 00:45:24,388 I immediately went into "protect Keith" mode. 773 00:45:30,561 --> 00:45:31,728 (DOOR LOCK CLICKING) 774 00:45:31,812 --> 00:45:34,314 LAUREN: The police started banging at the door. 775 00:45:34,398 --> 00:45:35,732 (BANGING ON DOOR) 776 00:45:35,816 --> 00:45:38,068 (POLICE OFFICER SHOUTING IN SPANISH) 777 00:45:38,152 --> 00:45:40,612 -LAUREN: I just kept thinking... -(BANGING CONTINUES) 778 00:45:40,696 --> 00:45:43,031 ...they might just shoot through this door. 779 00:45:45,576 --> 00:45:47,536 KEITH: Love is the greatest fight. 780 00:45:47,619 --> 00:45:49,455 Our commitment is our power. 781 00:45:49,538 --> 00:45:51,623 Love is pain. 782 00:45:51,707 --> 00:45:53,417 You're going to have to fight. 783 00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:56,462 (DISTORTED VOICE ECHOING) 784 00:45:57,296 --> 00:46:00,757 ♪ (MUSIC CRESCENDOS, FADES) ♪ 785 00:46:00,841 --> 00:46:04,344 (INDISTINCT YELLING) 786 00:46:04,428 --> 00:46:07,306 LAUREN: At that point, I was completely frantic. 787 00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:10,684 And in a moment of absolute fear, 788 00:46:10,768 --> 00:46:12,352 I called out Keith's name. 789 00:46:12,936 --> 00:46:14,062 (INAUDIBLE) 790 00:46:14,771 --> 00:46:16,773 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 791 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,321 LAUREN: For months after that, I felt like such a failure... 792 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,533 because I hadn't been strong enough to protect him 793 00:46:26,617 --> 00:46:27,784 at all costs. 794 00:46:31,038 --> 00:46:33,165 TANYA: Were you surprised that the defendant 795 00:46:33,248 --> 00:46:34,541 went into the walk-in closet 796 00:46:34,625 --> 00:46:36,710 when Mexican law enforcement arrived? 797 00:46:36,793 --> 00:46:38,128 ♪ (SORROWFUL MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 798 00:46:38,212 --> 00:46:40,422 I was so surprised. 799 00:46:40,506 --> 00:46:42,633 Everything I was teaching in NXIVM, 800 00:46:42,716 --> 00:46:44,009 all centered around the fact 801 00:46:44,092 --> 00:46:46,303 that we can live this principled life. 802 00:46:48,847 --> 00:46:52,017 That day, I chose what I believed 803 00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:54,728 we had been training for this entire time, 804 00:46:54,811 --> 00:46:58,190 which was to choose love over everything else. 805 00:46:58,273 --> 00:47:01,318 Including the possibility of losing my life. 806 00:47:01,401 --> 00:47:03,529 (APPLAUSE) 807 00:47:03,612 --> 00:47:06,698 It never ever crossed my mind 808 00:47:06,782 --> 00:47:09,660 that if Keith and I were in this situation... 809 00:47:10,994 --> 00:47:13,497 he wouldn't choose the exact same thing. 810 00:47:15,832 --> 00:47:19,753 It never occurred to me that I would choose Keith... 811 00:47:21,004 --> 00:47:23,298 and Keith would choose Keith. 812 00:47:40,399 --> 00:47:42,317 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 813 00:47:42,401 --> 00:47:43,735 (SNIFFLES) 814 00:47:47,656 --> 00:47:49,908 MARK VICENTE: I'm very unhappy for Lauren... 815 00:47:50,826 --> 00:47:52,286 but I'm happy that this is coming out 816 00:47:52,369 --> 00:47:54,162 because this is the kind of thing-- 817 00:47:54,830 --> 00:47:56,623 This is the darkness. 818 00:47:56,707 --> 00:47:59,001 -This is the darkness. -(SARAH SOBBING) 819 00:47:59,585 --> 00:48:00,627 I still think 820 00:48:00,711 --> 00:48:02,004 she can have a life now if she wants it. 821 00:48:02,087 --> 00:48:04,214 She can still have a child, maybe not conventionally, 822 00:48:04,298 --> 00:48:06,550 but she can. (SNIFFLES) 823 00:48:06,633 --> 00:48:08,510 You know? We're gonna talk again. 824 00:48:10,429 --> 00:48:12,806 I know we will. I don't know if we'll be friends again. 825 00:48:12,889 --> 00:48:14,391 Maybe we will. I don't know. 826 00:48:16,393 --> 00:48:17,936 I feel so bad for her. 827 00:48:19,062 --> 00:48:20,397 It's so terrible. 828 00:48:23,025 --> 00:48:25,569 (GROANS) Man, I have so many questions for her. 829 00:48:26,945 --> 00:48:27,946 (SIGHS) 830 00:48:38,290 --> 00:48:42,169 MICHELLE SALZMAN: My sister, she's destroyed by this. 831 00:48:42,252 --> 00:48:45,797 She was destroyed by it. And-- and it-- it's-- 832 00:48:45,881 --> 00:48:48,258 it's fucking terrible. 833 00:48:48,342 --> 00:48:50,135 And there's not a lot of, you know... 834 00:48:51,470 --> 00:48:53,680 It's like... (SIGHS) 835 00:48:53,764 --> 00:48:56,016 "Oh, my God. Why didn't-- why didn't we just see 836 00:48:56,099 --> 00:48:58,685 how bad it really was?" 837 00:48:58,769 --> 00:49:01,897 There was always like, "Well, he must know better. 838 00:49:01,980 --> 00:49:05,484 He must know what he's doing. He's Keith." 839 00:49:05,567 --> 00:49:07,736 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 840 00:49:07,819 --> 00:49:08,945 MICHELLE: There was a bunch of stuff 841 00:49:09,029 --> 00:49:11,365 that I'm not comfortable in talking about. 842 00:49:11,448 --> 00:49:13,659 Absolutely happened that I never shared with my mom, 843 00:49:13,742 --> 00:49:15,035 and I never shared with Lauren, 844 00:49:15,118 --> 00:49:17,788 and I never shared with anybody because he asked me not to. 845 00:49:19,122 --> 00:49:22,751 I remember having a conversation with him when I was 18, 846 00:49:22,834 --> 00:49:24,670 and he wanted me to commit to something, 847 00:49:24,753 --> 00:49:27,422 some sort of something kind of relationship with him, 848 00:49:27,506 --> 00:49:29,716 that I didn't know that I was agreeing to, 849 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,552 or understood what it was that he was asking. 850 00:49:32,636 --> 00:49:34,012 At some point, it became a breach. 851 00:49:34,096 --> 00:49:37,641 I broke some sort of commitment to him, 852 00:49:37,724 --> 00:49:41,436 and then my relationship with him was broken forever 853 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,522 and I was always supposed to repair it. 854 00:49:43,605 --> 00:49:45,774 And you came after me for 20 years. 855 00:49:45,857 --> 00:49:48,193 I have to repair this relationship with Keith, 856 00:49:48,276 --> 00:49:51,279 and if I don't... I don't know what. 857 00:49:52,781 --> 00:49:55,325 It's even creepier that he wanted 858 00:49:55,409 --> 00:49:56,702 to have a relationship with me 859 00:49:56,785 --> 00:49:57,994 when he was having a relationship 860 00:49:58,078 --> 00:49:59,663 with my sister. I mean, who does that? 861 00:49:59,746 --> 00:50:01,415 And I had a boyfriend at the time, 862 00:50:01,498 --> 00:50:03,709 and I was like, "Who is this guy? 863 00:50:03,792 --> 00:50:06,545 He's 40-something years old and I'm 18." 864 00:50:07,337 --> 00:50:08,964 What the fuck was going on? 865 00:50:17,723 --> 00:50:20,684 NANCY: Keith never liked Michelle. 866 00:50:20,767 --> 00:50:22,102 But I didn't realize it was because 867 00:50:22,185 --> 00:50:23,603 she wouldn't have sex with him. 868 00:50:25,439 --> 00:50:26,481 So... 869 00:50:28,066 --> 00:50:29,484 I guess I should've. 870 00:50:38,493 --> 00:50:41,705 I think it was like an experiment with him. 871 00:50:41,788 --> 00:50:43,373 I started thinking that... 872 00:50:44,583 --> 00:50:48,378 he enjoyed hurting us. 873 00:50:49,838 --> 00:50:53,842 He just wanted to see how far he could push us. (SNIFFLES) 874 00:50:53,925 --> 00:50:55,969 Like how much could he get away with. 875 00:50:57,637 --> 00:50:59,306 He never intended to have a baby with her, 876 00:50:59,389 --> 00:51:01,808 and he used those things as excuses 877 00:51:01,892 --> 00:51:02,976 so he could blame her 878 00:51:03,059 --> 00:51:05,896 for why he didn't follow through on his promise. 879 00:51:07,230 --> 00:51:08,732 He knew what he was doing. 880 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,863 He stole her child-bearing years. 881 00:51:17,532 --> 00:51:20,368 (SNIFFLES) He practically broke her. 882 00:51:25,874 --> 00:51:26,917 I mean, she went to college, 883 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,627 but she was a baby when she met him. 884 00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:31,171 She was not worldly. 885 00:51:33,089 --> 00:51:34,591 And she was not strong. 886 00:51:36,259 --> 00:51:37,302 Like me. 887 00:51:39,054 --> 00:51:40,138 (SNIFFLES) 888 00:51:41,181 --> 00:51:44,810 (SIGHS) He really affected my family badly. 889 00:51:47,020 --> 00:51:48,563 And I let that happen. 890 00:51:50,273 --> 00:51:51,691 I couldn't see it. 891 00:51:52,984 --> 00:51:54,361 (SOBS) 892 00:51:58,156 --> 00:51:59,574 (SNIFFLES) 893 00:52:15,549 --> 00:52:17,133 (KEYS JINGLING) 894 00:52:17,759 --> 00:52:19,678 (KEYBOARD KEYS CLACKING) 895 00:52:22,973 --> 00:52:25,433 EMILY SAUL: With Lauren, she did know a lot. 896 00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:28,854 She stayed a very long time. 897 00:52:28,937 --> 00:52:31,690 This is obviously a very intelligent woman. 898 00:52:31,773 --> 00:52:34,359 But it's really what she said at the end I think encapsulated 899 00:52:34,442 --> 00:52:36,278 why she stayed there for as long as she did 900 00:52:36,361 --> 00:52:38,655 and why she did what she did, and it's because 901 00:52:38,738 --> 00:52:41,283 she loved-- because she loved Keith Raniere. 902 00:52:41,366 --> 00:52:43,201 And she thought he, like-- 903 00:52:43,285 --> 00:52:45,537 She-- It was too hard for her to not believe 904 00:52:45,620 --> 00:52:47,831 that he was the most ethical man in the world. 905 00:52:49,958 --> 00:52:52,085 When you are in that position, like, who knows 906 00:52:52,168 --> 00:52:54,629 what any of us is capable of? 907 00:52:58,633 --> 00:53:00,385 ♪ (TENSE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 908 00:53:02,721 --> 00:53:04,848 TANYA: Ms. Salzman, do you remember 909 00:53:04,931 --> 00:53:07,726 the defendant approaching you with a plan regarding 910 00:53:07,809 --> 00:53:10,353 a young woman from Mexico? 911 00:53:10,854 --> 00:53:11,897 LAUREN: Yes. 912 00:53:13,023 --> 00:53:15,358 Keith told me that there are some serious problems 913 00:53:15,442 --> 00:53:17,277 with this young lady. 914 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,238 That she wasn't doing the work that she committed to 915 00:53:20,322 --> 00:53:23,533 and that she was stealing from the community. 916 00:53:23,617 --> 00:53:27,746 Keith told me that Dani should be given an ultimatum. 917 00:53:27,829 --> 00:53:30,916 She needed to go into her room with no distractions 918 00:53:30,999 --> 00:53:33,877 and come up with a plan for how to fix her breach 919 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:35,629 or be sent back to Mexico. 920 00:53:39,132 --> 00:53:41,217 How do you feel about participating 921 00:53:41,301 --> 00:53:43,178 in this Dani project now? 922 00:53:43,261 --> 00:53:44,846 I think it's horrendous. 923 00:53:45,889 --> 00:53:49,768 I mean, of all the crimes that I committed... 924 00:53:51,061 --> 00:53:54,481 I think this is the worst thing that I did. 925 00:53:59,778 --> 00:54:02,989 JUDGE GARAUFIS: The government may call its next witness. 926 00:54:03,073 --> 00:54:04,866 MOIRA PENZA: The government calls the witness 927 00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:07,202 who will be identified as Daniela. 928 00:54:09,496 --> 00:54:11,623 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 929 00:54:12,666 --> 00:54:14,000 ♪ ("UNRAVELING" BY BONNIE PIESSE PLAYING) ♪ 930 00:54:14,084 --> 00:54:17,170 ♪ Everything Everything is wrong ♪ 931 00:54:18,546 --> 00:54:23,051 ♪ There's nothing left Of how we knew it ♪ 932 00:54:24,844 --> 00:54:30,100 ♪ Breaking down All the crooked lines ♪ 933 00:54:30,767 --> 00:54:34,062 ♪ Unraveling ♪ 934 00:54:37,273 --> 00:54:41,945 ♪ Everything Everything is gone ♪ 935 00:54:43,071 --> 00:54:47,325 ♪ There's no way back You can't erase it ♪ 936 00:54:49,494 --> 00:54:55,500 ♪ Memories are falling To the ground ♪ 937 00:54:55,583 --> 00:54:58,253 ♪ Spiraling ♪ 938 00:55:01,548 --> 00:55:04,968 ♪ It's who you ♪ 939 00:55:05,051 --> 00:55:10,098 ♪ Who you are ♪ 940 00:55:13,768 --> 00:55:17,981 ♪ Not who you ♪ 941 00:55:18,064 --> 00:55:22,068 ♪ Believe in ♪ 942 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,497 ♪ (SONG CONCLUDES) ♪