1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:07,517 --> 00:00:08,862 Man: How about this one? 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,896 ♪ Louis, take a look at your life ♪ 5 00:00:13,931 --> 00:00:16,448 ♪ You're in big trouble ♪ 6 00:00:19,103 --> 00:00:21,931 ♪ Just trying to tell ya. ♪ 7 00:00:22,068 --> 00:00:23,137 Louis, when you die, 8 00:00:23,275 --> 00:00:25,724 you're gonna have to stand before God. 9 00:00:25,862 --> 00:00:27,275 What are you gonna tell him? Nothing. 10 00:00:27,413 --> 00:00:29,344 He's gonna drop-kick your ass to hell. 11 00:00:29,482 --> 00:00:33,793 Louis, Louis, Louis, Louis, Louis, Louis's heart. 12 00:00:33,931 --> 00:00:35,241 Louis, Louis. 13 00:00:35,379 --> 00:00:37,275 ♪ Oh, poor Louis, Louis. ♪ 14 00:00:38,275 --> 00:00:40,931 Your vibe is very odd. 15 00:00:42,482 --> 00:00:46,448 - Women: God hates America! 16 00:00:46,586 --> 00:00:50,310 America is dead! 17 00:00:50,448 --> 00:00:53,172 - One of the most notorious hate groups in America, 18 00:00:53,310 --> 00:00:56,448 the Westboro Baptist Church, is a Christian ministry that, 19 00:00:56,586 --> 00:00:59,586 for years, has preached a virulently anti-gay message 20 00:00:59,724 --> 00:01:03,275 at funerals and high-profile events. 21 00:01:03,413 --> 00:01:05,344 You angered the Lord your God, 22 00:01:05,482 --> 00:01:07,482 and now he's cursed your family. 23 00:01:07,620 --> 00:01:09,793 There's no consolation there. 24 00:01:09,931 --> 00:01:13,000 - In 2006, and again in 2010, 25 00:01:13,137 --> 00:01:15,310 I visited them in Topeka, Kansas, 26 00:01:15,448 --> 00:01:18,241 discovering a world of indoctrination, 27 00:01:18,379 --> 00:01:21,206 masterminded by church founder Fred Phelps, 28 00:01:21,344 --> 00:01:24,137 known by family members as "Gramps". 29 00:01:24,275 --> 00:01:26,172 - Fred: It's almost 18 months now, 30 00:01:26,310 --> 00:01:28,827 and the siege has got people eating their babies... 31 00:01:30,758 --> 00:01:33,517 and their small children, and each other! 32 00:01:33,655 --> 00:01:36,620 You're gonna eat your babies! 33 00:01:36,758 --> 00:01:40,862 - But Fred Phelps's death in 2014 had shaken up the church, 34 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,206 and a long-devoted member had defected and gone public. 35 00:01:44,344 --> 00:01:46,551 You know, we claimed to love people. 36 00:01:46,689 --> 00:01:48,965 This was the biggest contradiction of all, I think. 37 00:01:49,103 --> 00:01:51,689 And I was totally blind to it. 38 00:01:51,827 --> 00:01:55,931 - Now, embarrassing secrets were said to be coming out. 39 00:01:56,068 --> 00:02:00,448 So I was back with America's most hated family. 40 00:02:00,586 --> 00:02:02,413 Did you picket Gramps's funeral? 41 00:02:02,551 --> 00:02:04,517 He went from dead to the ground 42 00:02:04,655 --> 00:02:07,586 as fast as we could possibly get him there. 43 00:02:07,724 --> 00:02:11,793 In a place where no one will be able to find him. 44 00:02:11,931 --> 00:02:14,310 Now, how do you like that awesomeness? 45 00:02:29,275 --> 00:02:30,965 - Louis: In Kansas City, Missouri, 46 00:02:31,103 --> 00:02:34,551 15 or so Westboro members were outside the Sprint Center, 47 00:02:34,689 --> 00:02:37,275 protesting college basketball. 48 00:02:38,448 --> 00:02:40,206 - Man: Who's this kid's mother? 49 00:02:40,344 --> 00:02:43,517 Holy [bleep] shit! You guys are pricks! 50 00:02:44,586 --> 00:02:47,344 Get a life, get a [bleep] life! 51 00:02:47,482 --> 00:02:49,206 Holy shit! 52 00:02:49,344 --> 00:02:51,965 - Louis: The church views pastimes like basketball 53 00:02:52,103 --> 00:02:53,379 as false idols. 54 00:02:53,517 --> 00:02:55,655 - Man: When you place something above Christ, 55 00:02:55,793 --> 00:02:57,517 like this filthy piece of silk 56 00:02:57,655 --> 00:02:59,862 that represents a nation awash in sin, 57 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,517 you're an idolater. 58 00:03:01,655 --> 00:03:04,620 [people shouting, car honking] 59 00:03:04,758 --> 00:03:06,896 - Pickets are an opportunity for Westboro 60 00:03:07,034 --> 00:03:09,000 to spread its hateful message, 61 00:03:09,137 --> 00:03:11,758 and also to indoctrinate its own membership. 62 00:03:12,793 --> 00:03:14,448 For them, the outrage they provoke 63 00:03:14,586 --> 00:03:17,620 is a sign that they are doing God's work. 64 00:03:17,758 --> 00:03:20,758 If a guy likes another guy, who the fuck cares? 65 00:03:20,896 --> 00:03:23,896 Let 'em do them, let 'em do them. 66 00:03:24,034 --> 00:03:26,241 - Among those present was the granddaughter 67 00:03:26,379 --> 00:03:28,413 of church founder, Fred Phelps, 68 00:03:28,551 --> 00:03:31,137 14-year-old Bethany Hockenbarger. 69 00:03:31,275 --> 00:03:34,862 Can I talk to you? Tell me about your sign. 70 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,137 - This is actually my favourite sign I request every time. 71 00:03:38,275 --> 00:03:42,655 Because when Satan whispered in Eve's ear to sin, 72 00:03:42,793 --> 00:03:46,034 he made them realise what they were doing wrong 73 00:03:46,172 --> 00:03:49,689 and they disobeyed God, and that was their sins. 74 00:03:49,827 --> 00:03:52,827 And who are you talking to in that sign? 75 00:03:52,965 --> 00:03:56,103 Everyone is prone to sin, 76 00:03:56,241 --> 00:03:58,896 and unless you have God's grace, 77 00:03:59,034 --> 00:04:01,655 you aren't gonna go to heaven, you're gonna go to hell. 78 00:04:01,793 --> 00:04:03,137 Do you worry about going to hell? 79 00:04:03,275 --> 00:04:04,793 - All the time, yeah. - Do you? 80 00:04:04,931 --> 00:04:06,689 - Yes. - What do you think it's like? 81 00:04:08,275 --> 00:04:10,344 It's obviously fire, 82 00:04:10,482 --> 00:04:12,724 and there's obviously a lot of people 83 00:04:12,862 --> 00:04:14,586 that are also gonna be there. 84 00:04:14,724 --> 00:04:17,344 You're in pain for eternity, basically? 85 00:04:17,482 --> 00:04:20,275 - Yes. - How's school going? 86 00:04:20,413 --> 00:04:24,482 Good. I have a choir concert coming up pretty soon, so... 87 00:04:24,620 --> 00:04:26,448 - What are you singing in the choir? 88 00:04:26,586 --> 00:04:28,344 - A couple of Police songs, 89 00:04:28,482 --> 00:04:30,000 a couple of Michael Jackson songs. 90 00:04:30,137 --> 00:04:33,965 - Wait, hang on... - Yeah, that's what I said! 91 00:04:34,758 --> 00:04:35,862 - Because you have a... 92 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,931 - Louis: There was also a new family. 93 00:04:38,068 --> 00:04:40,068 Chris Jakes and four of his children 94 00:04:40,206 --> 00:04:43,896 had joined four years earlier, leaving behind a wife and mother 95 00:04:44,034 --> 00:04:47,103 to start a new life inside Westboro. 96 00:04:47,241 --> 00:04:49,137 - What's your name? - Daniel Jakes. 97 00:04:49,275 --> 00:04:50,827 - Daniel Jakes. - Yeah. 98 00:04:50,965 --> 00:04:54,689 This is my brother Josh, and this is my sister Julie. 99 00:04:54,827 --> 00:04:56,551 - Tell me about your sign? 100 00:04:56,689 --> 00:04:58,896 - You know, this is one of our more famous ones, 101 00:04:59,034 --> 00:05:01,103 particularly "God Hates Fags". 102 00:05:01,241 --> 00:05:02,655 But I like this one 'cause it says, 103 00:05:02,793 --> 00:05:04,413 "God Still Hates Fags". 104 00:05:04,551 --> 00:05:07,103 God hasn't changed, he's not going to. 105 00:05:07,241 --> 00:05:08,689 You know, staying the same. 106 00:05:08,827 --> 00:05:10,517 - How long have you been here? 107 00:05:10,655 --> 00:05:13,206 - Four years, three and a half years or so. 108 00:05:13,344 --> 00:05:16,448 - So you would've been how old when you came, like 10? 109 00:05:16,586 --> 00:05:19,758 - No, I'm 17 now, so I was 13, 12. 110 00:05:19,896 --> 00:05:22,275 Were your parents divorced when you came here? 111 00:05:22,413 --> 00:05:23,517 No, they were not. 112 00:05:23,655 --> 00:05:25,620 - And do you miss your mum at all? 113 00:05:25,758 --> 00:05:29,586 - Uh, I mean... not really. 114 00:05:29,724 --> 00:05:31,586 And I know that sounds a little weird, 115 00:05:31,724 --> 00:05:33,896 and I don't have a hatred for her. 116 00:05:34,034 --> 00:05:36,724 I think the Lord has really helped me with that, 117 00:05:36,862 --> 00:05:41,068 because, you know, my mom claims she loves me. 118 00:05:41,206 --> 00:05:43,068 According to God's standards she hates me, 119 00:05:43,206 --> 00:05:45,275 - she doesn't love me at all. - What do you mean? She... 120 00:05:45,413 --> 00:05:47,655 She doesn't love me because she doesn't tell me the truth. 121 00:05:47,793 --> 00:05:49,551 - Which is? - Which is that 122 00:05:49,689 --> 00:05:51,827 if I don't obey God, I'm gonna go to hell. 123 00:05:53,172 --> 00:05:54,620 Sex! 124 00:05:58,137 --> 00:05:59,931 - I was back spending time at Westboro, 125 00:06:00,068 --> 00:06:02,896 hoping to find out how the death of its founder and leader, 126 00:06:03,034 --> 00:06:06,172 Pastor Fred Phelps, had affected the church. 127 00:06:12,586 --> 00:06:14,103 Notoriously tight-knit, 128 00:06:14,241 --> 00:06:16,862 most of the church members come from a single family, 129 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,448 the Phelps, and live on one block in Topeka, Kansas. 130 00:06:23,896 --> 00:06:25,551 The chapel is in the same building 131 00:06:25,689 --> 00:06:28,137 where Pastor Phelps, or "Gramps", once lived, 132 00:06:28,275 --> 00:06:30,620 across the street from The Rainbow House, 133 00:06:30,758 --> 00:06:32,517 a pro-gay rights charity. 134 00:06:37,103 --> 00:06:39,344 One of the few members who isn't part of the Phelps family 135 00:06:39,482 --> 00:06:41,000 is Steve Drain. 136 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:42,965 Where are we going? 137 00:06:43,103 --> 00:06:44,896 - We're gonna go to the video newsroom. 138 00:06:45,034 --> 00:06:47,655 - Steve first came as a documentary maker. 139 00:06:47,793 --> 00:06:50,103 He was so impressed, he decided to join up, 140 00:06:50,241 --> 00:06:52,827 bringing his family with him. 141 00:06:52,965 --> 00:06:55,103 - Would I be right in thinking it was here 142 00:06:55,241 --> 00:06:58,310 that I saw Gramps during his video preaching? 143 00:06:58,448 --> 00:07:01,137 - Do you remember 13 years ago? - I do remember that. 144 00:07:01,275 --> 00:07:04,620 - It was probably as new to you as it was to me in those days. 145 00:07:07,965 --> 00:07:09,689 - Hi, guys. - How do you do? 146 00:07:10,862 --> 00:07:12,241 - I'm Louis. - Hi, Louis. 147 00:07:12,379 --> 00:07:13,724 - From the BBC. - Yes. 148 00:07:13,862 --> 00:07:15,448 - You must be Pastor Fred Phelps. 149 00:07:15,586 --> 00:07:17,000 - Yes. - Very pleased to meet you. 150 00:07:17,137 --> 00:07:18,862 Glad to see you, Louis. 151 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,068 Pay attention, pay close attention. 152 00:07:22,206 --> 00:07:25,965 Billy Graham, hell-bound false prophet. 153 00:07:26,103 --> 00:07:31,034 Billy, you are headed straight and irreversibly for hell. 154 00:07:31,172 --> 00:07:35,793 You are a lying, money-grubbing Arminian heretic. 155 00:07:35,931 --> 00:07:42,724 At 88, Graham will soon die, and split hell wide open. 156 00:07:42,862 --> 00:07:48,275 And Westboro Baptist Church will picket your funeral. Amen. 157 00:07:49,482 --> 00:07:51,448 - After Pastor Phelps's death, 158 00:07:51,586 --> 00:07:53,448 his place had been taken by a counsel 159 00:07:53,586 --> 00:07:57,241 of seven elders, all male, of which Steve was one. 160 00:07:58,448 --> 00:07:59,931 - Can you hear me OK? 161 00:08:00,068 --> 00:08:04,034 I can hear you. OK. Here we go. 162 00:08:04,172 --> 00:08:06,241 Greetings. The word of God is clear 163 00:08:06,379 --> 00:08:09,241 on what makes a nation wicked in his eyes. 164 00:08:09,379 --> 00:08:10,620 Mr. President, 165 00:08:10,758 --> 00:08:13,862 will you not ask the Lord to strip you of your pride, 166 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,310 greed and vanity, and repent of that folly, 167 00:08:17,448 --> 00:08:20,448 and ask the Lord to cause you to, humbly yet boldly, 168 00:08:20,586 --> 00:08:22,689 speak his truth to this whole round world 169 00:08:22,827 --> 00:08:25,862 while you still have this considerable platform? 170 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,724 We're commanded to love our neighbours as ourselves. 171 00:08:28,862 --> 00:08:32,517 Fear God and keep his commandments. Amen. 172 00:08:32,655 --> 00:08:34,241 Did that camera bounce much? 173 00:08:34,379 --> 00:08:36,482 - No, but I had some audio blip. - Really? 174 00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:38,758 But I wanna check the mic before we keep going. 175 00:08:38,896 --> 00:08:40,310 - OK. - 'Cause it cut out 176 00:08:40,448 --> 00:08:41,896 a lot at the end. 177 00:08:42,034 --> 00:08:43,448 So it's a reasonable... 178 00:08:43,586 --> 00:08:47,241 Compared with the rhetoric, the way it used to be. 179 00:08:47,379 --> 00:08:51,655 You're more liable to remind people 180 00:08:51,793 --> 00:08:55,068 of the route to salvation. 181 00:08:55,206 --> 00:08:58,482 You're either the quickest study in the history of man, 182 00:08:58,620 --> 00:09:02,379 or you already kinda came here with what you thought this was. 183 00:09:02,517 --> 00:09:04,689 I... It's based on what I'm seeing, really. 184 00:09:04,827 --> 00:09:06,586 And I don't mean it as a criticism. 185 00:09:06,724 --> 00:09:08,689 It feels like a softening or a declination 186 00:09:08,827 --> 00:09:11,344 from how maybe Gramps would've spoken it. 187 00:09:11,482 --> 00:09:14,862 I think that it has more to do with... 188 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,655 growth and maturity than anything else. 189 00:09:17,793 --> 00:09:19,551 [Imitating Fred Phelps] Donald Trump, 190 00:09:19,689 --> 00:09:22,206 you're gonna split hell wide open when you die, 191 00:09:22,344 --> 00:09:25,448 and Westboro Baptist Church will picket your funeral. 192 00:09:25,586 --> 00:09:27,827 [laughs] That's not even close. 193 00:09:27,965 --> 00:09:30,586 - [laughter] - A good try. 194 00:09:36,482 --> 00:09:38,655 - Though there are usually one or two departures 195 00:09:38,793 --> 00:09:41,310 from Westboro each year, the numbers at the church 196 00:09:41,448 --> 00:09:45,034 have remained the same, hovering around 70. 197 00:09:45,172 --> 00:09:47,172 Most of the new membership comes from children 198 00:09:47,310 --> 00:09:48,724 born into the group. 199 00:09:48,862 --> 00:09:50,310 - Hello there. - Hi. 200 00:09:50,448 --> 00:09:51,689 How's it going? 201 00:09:51,827 --> 00:09:53,517 Among those who'd had children since my last visit 202 00:09:53,655 --> 00:09:54,620 was Jael Phelps. 203 00:09:54,758 --> 00:09:55,793 - Good to see you. - Hi. 204 00:09:55,931 --> 00:09:57,068 How you doing? Can we come in? 205 00:09:57,206 --> 00:09:58,482 When I'd first met Jael, 206 00:09:58,620 --> 00:10:00,655 we'd talked about her marriage prospects. 207 00:10:00,793 --> 00:10:03,137 - This our... the computer study area. 208 00:10:03,275 --> 00:10:06,034 It's not sinful to get married, is it? 209 00:10:06,172 --> 00:10:08,655 And if you wanted to do that then how do you do that? 210 00:10:08,793 --> 00:10:11,655 Well, first of all, I don't think that's ever gonna happen. 211 00:10:11,793 --> 00:10:13,655 - Why wouldn't that happen? - Are you kidding me? 212 00:10:13,793 --> 00:10:15,034 Are you kidding me? 213 00:10:15,172 --> 00:10:18,275 Because I'm Jael Phelps, and I serve God, that's why. 214 00:10:20,103 --> 00:10:22,310 This used to be your room, didn't it? 215 00:10:22,448 --> 00:10:25,103 - I remember you showing me. - Yeah. 216 00:10:25,241 --> 00:10:27,724 [child speaking indistinctly] 217 00:10:27,862 --> 00:10:29,931 So cute. Whose room is this? 218 00:10:30,068 --> 00:10:31,413 - Silas's. 219 00:10:31,551 --> 00:10:33,551 - I can tell it's Silas's room 'cause it has 220 00:10:33,689 --> 00:10:36,103 so many baby-appropriate things on the walls. 221 00:10:36,241 --> 00:10:38,551 - [she laughs] - Yeah! 222 00:10:38,689 --> 00:10:40,862 - Yeah, he's being sarcastic, darling. 223 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,000 - Will you change the walls, 224 00:10:42,137 --> 00:10:44,310 or are you gonna keep the walls like this? 225 00:10:44,448 --> 00:10:46,448 Or have you just not got round to it yet? 226 00:10:46,586 --> 00:10:48,655 - No, no, no, this is intentional. 227 00:10:48,793 --> 00:10:50,068 Why? 228 00:10:50,206 --> 00:10:51,310 - This is one of my favourite rooms in the house. 229 00:10:51,448 --> 00:10:54,862 I think it's a place to teach the children, 230 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,965 and children are concrete learners. 231 00:10:58,103 --> 00:10:59,965 They're not, you know... 232 00:11:00,103 --> 00:11:02,137 - Theoretical stuff... - Abstract, yeah sure. 233 00:11:02,275 --> 00:11:04,034 Yeah, abstract stuff's gonna be over their heads, so... 234 00:11:04,172 --> 00:11:06,482 - And in a way, what I would agree with 235 00:11:06,620 --> 00:11:12,482 is a tiny baby like Silas, it'll be lost on him, 236 00:11:12,620 --> 00:11:15,655 what this means. So maybe that's good. 237 00:11:15,793 --> 00:11:17,758 'Cause actually a baby doesn't need to be thinking 238 00:11:17,896 --> 00:11:19,310 - about hell the whole time. - Right. 239 00:11:19,448 --> 00:11:22,103 - But do you think you have this up maybe 240 00:11:22,241 --> 00:11:24,655 - for the older ones too? - Yeah. 241 00:11:24,793 --> 00:11:27,379 I think these are wonderful works of God, they're amazing, 242 00:11:27,517 --> 00:11:31,137 and they strike awe, you know, some of these things. 243 00:11:31,275 --> 00:11:32,724 And so, yeah... 244 00:11:32,862 --> 00:11:34,724 [babbles] 245 00:11:34,862 --> 00:11:36,655 - Well, that made a lot more sense 246 00:11:36,793 --> 00:11:38,517 than what your mum just said. 247 00:11:38,655 --> 00:11:40,517 [laughs] 248 00:11:43,758 --> 00:11:46,241 - Against the odds, Jael had found someone 249 00:11:46,379 --> 00:11:48,206 from an unlikely place. 250 00:11:50,068 --> 00:11:52,344 - Man: If you listen to the millions of Brits, 251 00:11:52,482 --> 00:11:56,103 it's just amazing how detached from reality they really are. 252 00:11:56,241 --> 00:11:58,206 The reality is Britain is broken. 253 00:11:58,344 --> 00:12:01,965 - Steven Holroyd from Bradford had joined in 2011, 254 00:12:02,103 --> 00:12:03,206 becoming another face 255 00:12:03,344 --> 00:12:05,931 in Westboro's online ministry of hate, 256 00:12:06,068 --> 00:12:08,344 denouncing a culture he viewed as decadent 257 00:12:08,482 --> 00:12:10,827 and taking aim at gay celebrities. 258 00:12:10,965 --> 00:12:12,620 - What does that say for a nation 259 00:12:12,758 --> 00:12:15,448 when they exalt a sodomite like Elton John 260 00:12:15,586 --> 00:12:18,896 and call him "Sir", how disgusting can you get? 261 00:12:19,034 --> 00:12:20,965 God hates the UK. 262 00:12:23,620 --> 00:12:25,103 - So, to get this out of the way, 263 00:12:25,241 --> 00:12:27,689 how does a young man from Bradford 264 00:12:27,827 --> 00:12:30,517 come to be a member of the Westboro Baptist Church? 265 00:12:31,931 --> 00:12:35,137 - He was shown some things by God. 266 00:12:35,275 --> 00:12:36,448 Right. 267 00:12:36,586 --> 00:12:39,000 - And I'd seen your documentary, 268 00:12:39,137 --> 00:12:43,448 I'd also seen Jeremy Kyle's deal with Shirl and Becca. 269 00:12:43,586 --> 00:12:44,689 - And thought what? 270 00:12:44,827 --> 00:12:46,517 Because most people saw those appearances 271 00:12:46,655 --> 00:12:48,310 and thought, "Wow, those guys are crazy!" 272 00:12:48,448 --> 00:12:50,448 - Right. - But you didn't think that. 273 00:12:50,586 --> 00:12:53,137 It was impressive to see that they knew 274 00:12:53,275 --> 00:12:55,448 what Bible verses were being referenced. 275 00:12:55,586 --> 00:12:58,931 I was impressed by that, so I wanted to learn more. 276 00:12:59,068 --> 00:13:00,862 - So then you had your visit, and then, 277 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,103 at the end of that, you thought what? 278 00:13:03,241 --> 00:13:06,586 - Steve said, "Why go back to Yorkshire?" 279 00:13:06,724 --> 00:13:09,965 And I felt that was a good question. 280 00:13:10,103 --> 00:13:11,758 - Jael, I don't wanna put you on the spot, 281 00:13:11,896 --> 00:13:14,586 but how did you realise that there were feelings 282 00:13:14,724 --> 00:13:16,172 growing between you? 283 00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:19,931 I felt like he was humble, and that he was modest, 284 00:13:20,068 --> 00:13:21,896 and that he wanted to do the right thing. 285 00:13:22,034 --> 00:13:27,379 So I felt that it would be a good person to sojourn with, 286 00:13:27,517 --> 00:13:30,310 and we could help one another. 287 00:13:30,448 --> 00:13:33,586 Serve the Lord together, so yeah, 288 00:13:33,724 --> 00:13:35,448 I think that's my answer. 289 00:13:36,931 --> 00:13:40,344 - It's not the stuff of a Hollywood rom-com. 290 00:13:40,482 --> 00:13:42,689 [laughs] It was very Jane Austen, 291 00:13:42,827 --> 00:13:46,758 if I can put it that way. All proper and appropriate. 292 00:13:46,896 --> 00:13:50,137 - I never thought that I was cut out for this. 293 00:13:51,586 --> 00:13:55,827 I saw myself as single for life, no question. 294 00:13:55,965 --> 00:13:58,206 - Did you? How come? 295 00:13:58,344 --> 00:14:01,137 Never had any experience with kids. 296 00:14:01,275 --> 00:14:03,689 I was never around girls really. [laughs] 297 00:14:03,827 --> 00:14:05,655 You weren't a sort of party boy? 298 00:14:05,793 --> 00:14:06,862 - Nope. 299 00:14:13,827 --> 00:14:15,965 This was our first impression of Matthias. 300 00:14:16,103 --> 00:14:18,655 Oh, OK, this is old-school Matt. 301 00:14:18,793 --> 00:14:22,758 Wow. You look like a 'Wallace and Gromit' character. 302 00:14:22,896 --> 00:14:24,827 He kind of does, I can see that! 303 00:14:24,965 --> 00:14:27,344 I had just worked a night shift. I was tired. 304 00:14:27,482 --> 00:14:30,068 There we go. We'll just go with that. 305 00:14:30,206 --> 00:14:31,827 - That's nice. What year is this? 306 00:14:31,965 --> 00:14:34,000 - 20... - 2012. 307 00:14:34,137 --> 00:14:36,896 - And so you're just clowning around in this one. 308 00:14:37,034 --> 00:14:39,482 - And you got married here, I take it, in the chapel? 309 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:41,310 - Yes. - Who officiated? 310 00:14:41,448 --> 00:14:42,482 Gramps. 311 00:14:42,620 --> 00:14:44,758 - And the Bible's quite traditional, 312 00:14:44,896 --> 00:14:47,586 obviously, in the matter of... 313 00:14:47,724 --> 00:14:49,655 the man's kind of in charge, wouldn't you say? 314 00:14:49,793 --> 00:14:52,931 - Yeah. He dictates what the law of the home is, 315 00:14:53,068 --> 00:14:56,448 and the wife is to carry that out. 316 00:14:56,586 --> 00:14:58,965 Just as Jesus Christ is in charge of the church. 317 00:14:59,103 --> 00:15:00,379 - Mmm. - Yes. 318 00:15:02,862 --> 00:15:04,862 - Steven had been re-christened "Matthias" 319 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,896 but in his old life, he'd been a postal worker. 320 00:15:08,034 --> 00:15:09,517 He'd been raised by his dad, 321 00:15:09,655 --> 00:15:12,482 after losing his mother to cancer aged 13. 322 00:15:14,034 --> 00:15:17,551 When was the last time you had contact with your dad? 323 00:15:17,689 --> 00:15:20,275 - About a year after I got married. 324 00:15:20,413 --> 00:15:24,344 - So six years ago. - Yeah. 325 00:15:24,482 --> 00:15:27,206 Once he found out that I'm not gonna be there 326 00:15:27,344 --> 00:15:32,103 drinking with him anymore, wasting my time anymore, 327 00:15:32,241 --> 00:15:36,620 then he's done, he doesn't have a use for me anymore. 328 00:15:36,758 --> 00:15:39,413 He's not leading me down that path to hell. 329 00:15:41,724 --> 00:15:43,896 - I could just imagine so many people in the UK seeing you 330 00:15:44,034 --> 00:15:45,965 and thinking you were somewhat jaded 331 00:15:46,103 --> 00:15:50,275 about life in the UK generally. Is there something in that? 332 00:15:50,413 --> 00:15:52,586 - Probably more the society waxing worse. 333 00:15:52,724 --> 00:15:54,896 - Yeah. - When they forget God, 334 00:15:55,034 --> 00:15:57,034 they wax worse. 335 00:15:57,896 --> 00:16:00,103 People hate each other. 336 00:16:00,241 --> 00:16:02,172 It's just a divided society. 337 00:16:02,310 --> 00:16:04,275 - Between? 338 00:16:04,413 --> 00:16:08,793 False religion, the Muslims, and everybody else. 339 00:16:08,931 --> 00:16:12,344 It's just hatred between these factions. 340 00:16:12,482 --> 00:16:14,689 Things don't look good for the UK. 341 00:16:14,827 --> 00:16:16,137 - It hurts to hear you say that. 342 00:16:16,275 --> 00:16:21,000 - Well, feelings... Feelings, Mr. Louis. 343 00:16:23,517 --> 00:16:27,310 What good are feelings in front of a judgment seat of Christ... 344 00:16:28,275 --> 00:16:29,827 where we all will be? 345 00:16:33,344 --> 00:16:34,793 - Matthias came across as someone 346 00:16:34,931 --> 00:16:37,379 who'd never really fitted in to his old life. 347 00:16:38,896 --> 00:16:40,655 A large family selling a hateful brand 348 00:16:40,793 --> 00:16:43,034 of religious certainty must've had appeal 349 00:16:43,172 --> 00:16:45,655 to someone who'd always felt detached. 350 00:16:47,827 --> 00:16:50,620 With those born into Westboro, I'd always tended to think 351 00:16:50,758 --> 00:16:54,172 they might've led normal lives if raised elsewhere, 352 00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:57,000 away from the poisonous influence of Pastor Phelps. 353 00:17:01,551 --> 00:17:05,379 But in the wake of his death, strange reports had circulated. 354 00:17:05,517 --> 00:17:06,689 Sources had told me 355 00:17:06,827 --> 00:17:09,655 Gramps had had a change of heart in his final days, 356 00:17:09,793 --> 00:17:12,827 causing him to be excommunicated from his own church. 357 00:17:16,896 --> 00:17:18,862 - Do you want a sign, Louis? - Oh, no, thank you. 358 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,103 - You sure? 'Cause I got some good ones in here. 359 00:17:21,241 --> 00:17:25,482 Let's use this one right here. I like this one a lot. 360 00:17:25,620 --> 00:17:27,655 It's a good question, it's a good Bible question. 361 00:17:27,793 --> 00:17:30,068 Why did God destroy Sodom? 362 00:17:30,206 --> 00:17:32,206 - Westboro had never publicly made a statement 363 00:17:32,344 --> 00:17:34,517 about the death of Pastor Phelps. 364 00:17:34,655 --> 00:17:36,413 - There's Shirley. - Yep. 365 00:17:36,551 --> 00:17:38,172 - At a local picket, I had a chance 366 00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:40,551 to speak to Fred Phelps's daughter, Shirley. 367 00:17:40,689 --> 00:17:42,517 - Nice to see you. - You too. 368 00:17:42,655 --> 00:17:44,620 - How are you doing? - I'm doing well. 369 00:17:44,758 --> 00:17:46,034 I haven't seen you in a while. 370 00:17:46,172 --> 00:17:48,172 - What do we do, shake hands? - No. 371 00:17:48,310 --> 00:17:50,310 - Nice to see you. - You too. 372 00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:57,896 ♪ You should have listened to our word. ♪ 373 00:17:58,034 --> 00:17:59,896 - In my previous visits, Shirley had been 374 00:18:00,034 --> 00:18:03,655 an uncompromising and outspoken messenger of God's hate. 375 00:18:03,793 --> 00:18:05,517 - You worship your backside. 376 00:18:05,655 --> 00:18:07,344 - Don't tell me what... - You worship your tiny... 377 00:18:07,482 --> 00:18:09,655 You just said it! You said it! 378 00:18:09,793 --> 00:18:12,758 Are you a homosexual? Are you or not? 379 00:18:12,896 --> 00:18:15,413 - I didn't say God worshipped my backside. 380 00:18:15,551 --> 00:18:17,931 - You do worship your backside. 381 00:18:18,068 --> 00:18:21,034 - Louis: Since then, three of her children had departed. 382 00:18:21,172 --> 00:18:22,793 According to Westboro beliefs, 383 00:18:22,931 --> 00:18:25,241 she was now forbidden from seeing them. 384 00:18:25,379 --> 00:18:27,758 Among them was a daughter, Megan. 385 00:18:27,896 --> 00:18:29,482 Well, I don't know what to say, Shirley, 386 00:18:29,620 --> 00:18:33,379 'cause I know you've been through a lot. And you've had... 387 00:18:33,517 --> 00:18:35,931 Three children have left since I last saw you. 388 00:18:36,068 --> 00:18:37,586 - Yeah. - That's a lot to take on board. 389 00:18:37,724 --> 00:18:39,965 - I still have more, so there might be more leave. 390 00:18:40,103 --> 00:18:41,724 - You've got seven left. - Yes. 391 00:18:41,862 --> 00:18:44,344 - That must've been very painful. 392 00:18:44,482 --> 00:18:47,379 - Like life, it's all painful. 393 00:18:47,517 --> 00:18:49,448 You know I've been in touch with Megan? 394 00:18:49,586 --> 00:18:51,103 - Well, I assumed you had. 395 00:18:51,241 --> 00:18:54,793 Yeah. You know she's married and has a daughter now? 396 00:18:54,931 --> 00:18:56,724 Yes, I know that. 397 00:18:56,862 --> 00:18:59,241 Who I'm assuming you haven't met? 398 00:18:59,379 --> 00:19:01,068 No, I have not. 399 00:19:01,206 --> 00:19:04,724 If she came back and wished to sit down with you, 400 00:19:04,862 --> 00:19:06,068 how would that look? 401 00:19:06,206 --> 00:19:08,000 - [sighs] To what end? 402 00:19:08,137 --> 00:19:09,620 - For a mother and daughter to... 403 00:19:09,758 --> 00:19:12,758 Look, the Lord Jesus Christ said that your enemies, 404 00:19:12,896 --> 00:19:16,344 that's his enemies, will be... They have your own household. 405 00:19:16,482 --> 00:19:20,206 And Megan left because Megan doesn't believe these things. 406 00:19:20,344 --> 00:19:22,068 So there's nothing to talk about. 407 00:19:22,206 --> 00:19:24,310 - Am I right in thinking Gramps 408 00:19:24,448 --> 00:19:27,068 was voted out of the church towards the end? 409 00:19:27,206 --> 00:19:30,896 So, first of all, we would never talk 410 00:19:31,034 --> 00:19:34,103 about internal church matters externally. 411 00:19:34,241 --> 00:19:36,689 Why would we do that? It's none of your business. 412 00:19:36,827 --> 00:19:38,551 - Right. - Whether somebody... 413 00:19:38,689 --> 00:19:40,310 - Shirley: And he's dead. - He is dead. 414 00:19:40,448 --> 00:19:43,206 So in a sense he's no longer part of the church. 415 00:19:43,344 --> 00:19:45,137 So in a sense it's not an internal church matter. 416 00:19:45,275 --> 00:19:46,862 - He's dead. - Look... 417 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,034 - Shirley's saying he's dead, 418 00:19:48,172 --> 00:19:49,965 what's the relevance of him being dead? 419 00:19:50,103 --> 00:19:52,862 He's my dad and I'm not gonna talk about him. 420 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,793 Yeah, you're also selective on your compassion, Louis. 421 00:19:57,034 --> 00:19:59,413 Well, you're talking about your feelings. 422 00:19:59,551 --> 00:20:01,724 I thought you weren't big on respecting feelings? 423 00:20:01,862 --> 00:20:03,655 - I don't respect feelings. 424 00:20:03,793 --> 00:20:05,000 So why are you playing the feelings card? 425 00:20:05,137 --> 00:20:06,896 - I have some, but I don't respect them. 426 00:20:07,034 --> 00:20:10,344 - You seem like you used to be a truth seeker, 427 00:20:10,482 --> 00:20:12,931 and now you're just a muck raker. 428 00:20:13,068 --> 00:20:14,517 I mean, what is all this? 429 00:20:14,655 --> 00:20:17,724 Come on, man, it's like you haven't grown at all. 430 00:20:17,862 --> 00:20:20,551 You still wanna just kick around the same things. 431 00:20:20,689 --> 00:20:22,310 Well, I'll take that as a compliment. 432 00:20:22,448 --> 00:20:25,275 If he died having been voted out of the church, 433 00:20:25,413 --> 00:20:28,172 would that mean that he went to hell? 434 00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:30,344 So, first of all, men are fallible. 435 00:20:30,482 --> 00:20:32,655 God's infallible, men are fallible. 436 00:20:32,793 --> 00:20:36,000 Talking about Gramps, though, at the end, did he fear God 437 00:20:36,137 --> 00:20:38,137 and obey his commandments at the end? 438 00:20:38,275 --> 00:20:40,068 - Look, I don't know a man's heart. 439 00:20:40,206 --> 00:20:42,413 - Oh, you... That's such a double standard. 440 00:20:42,551 --> 00:20:43,758 It's not a double standard. 441 00:20:43,896 --> 00:20:45,896 It is. It's like if you're outside of the church, 442 00:20:46,034 --> 00:20:48,000 then you hold them to one standard, 443 00:20:48,137 --> 00:20:50,482 and then if it's Gramps, it's all this, 444 00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:53,551 "maybe, don't know, could be, might not, how could we know?" 445 00:20:53,689 --> 00:20:57,068 I do know that all of us sin, but there's a difference. 446 00:20:57,206 --> 00:20:58,586 - But why was he voted out of the church, then? 447 00:20:58,724 --> 00:21:00,896 - Nobody said he was. - Well, I know he was. 448 00:21:01,034 --> 00:21:02,896 - Well, you don't know that from anybody 449 00:21:03,034 --> 00:21:04,586 inside the church, you know that... 450 00:21:04,724 --> 00:21:07,758 You're playing word games. The fact that you won't confirm it 451 00:21:07,896 --> 00:21:09,275 doesn't mean that it didn't happen. 452 00:21:09,413 --> 00:21:10,379 And I'm not gonna... 453 00:21:10,517 --> 00:21:12,103 - The fact that you make the claim 454 00:21:12,241 --> 00:21:13,689 doesn't mean that it happened either. 455 00:21:13,827 --> 00:21:14,896 - Well, I know it happened. 456 00:21:15,034 --> 00:21:17,724 OK, well, what else do you wanna talk about? 457 00:21:17,862 --> 00:21:20,172 Do you wanna talk about something that means something? 458 00:21:23,413 --> 00:21:25,172 - Shirley had come across differently 459 00:21:25,310 --> 00:21:28,517 from previous visits, as almost fragile. 460 00:21:44,586 --> 00:21:46,034 - I was on my way to see 461 00:21:46,172 --> 00:21:48,379 Shirley's eldest daughter, Megan. 462 00:21:48,517 --> 00:21:50,896 Once one of Westboro's most committed believers, 463 00:21:51,034 --> 00:21:53,172 she was now its most outspoken critic, 464 00:21:53,310 --> 00:21:55,413 with a TED Talk that had gone viral, 465 00:21:55,551 --> 00:21:57,551 a book coming out, and a Hollywood movie 466 00:21:57,689 --> 00:22:00,241 about her life said to be in the works. 467 00:22:00,379 --> 00:22:03,137 - 99.9% of mankind is heading straight for hell, 468 00:22:03,275 --> 00:22:04,655 and there's nothing you can do about it. 469 00:22:04,793 --> 00:22:06,241 - You guys, right... - Wait, wait, I'm gay. 470 00:22:06,379 --> 00:22:08,758 - If you don't repent, you're engaged in some filthy conduct, 471 00:22:08,896 --> 00:22:09,931 you're headed straight for hell 472 00:22:10,068 --> 00:22:11,793 and there's nothing you can do about it. 473 00:22:20,413 --> 00:22:22,413 The church had been my entire identity. 474 00:22:22,551 --> 00:22:26,103 So when I walked away from Westboro, I walked into a void. 475 00:22:26,241 --> 00:22:29,206 I didn't know who I was, or what I believed. 476 00:22:29,344 --> 00:22:31,551 I was terrified of my own mind, 477 00:22:31,689 --> 00:22:33,724 the mind that had been, not just convinced, 478 00:22:33,862 --> 00:22:35,862 but passionately dedicated to the idea 479 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,896 that my primary duty in life was to warn the world 480 00:22:40,034 --> 00:22:41,448 that they were all doomed. 481 00:22:43,068 --> 00:22:45,724 - In Nebraska, following a college speaking engagement, 482 00:22:45,862 --> 00:22:48,379 I had a chance to catch up with Megan. 483 00:22:50,344 --> 00:22:51,965 - Hello. - Hello. 484 00:22:52,103 --> 00:22:53,000 There's two of you. 485 00:22:53,137 --> 00:22:54,965 Isn't that crazy? Actually three. 486 00:22:55,103 --> 00:22:57,206 - Hi! Nice to see you. 487 00:22:57,344 --> 00:22:59,586 - So good to see you, Louis. 488 00:22:59,724 --> 00:23:02,379 - And this must be Solvi. - Solvi. 489 00:23:02,517 --> 00:23:03,965 - What a cutie. 490 00:23:04,103 --> 00:23:06,379 Megan had emailed me soon after she left the church, 491 00:23:06,517 --> 00:23:07,965 and we'd remained in touch. 492 00:23:08,103 --> 00:23:10,655 Yes, look at this, Megan. 493 00:23:11,655 --> 00:23:12,965 This is good grabbing. 494 00:23:13,103 --> 00:23:14,931 She was now married to a man 495 00:23:15,068 --> 00:23:18,896 she'd met on social media, while still inside Westboro. 496 00:23:19,034 --> 00:23:21,310 - Gonna say "bye"? Bye-bye. - Bye-bye. 497 00:23:21,448 --> 00:23:23,862 OK, I think you're gonna sit there, if that works for you? 498 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,931 - That's wonderful. - And we'll just catch up. 499 00:23:26,827 --> 00:23:28,172 - When I last spoke to you, 500 00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:31,034 you were still inside Westboro Baptist Church. 501 00:23:31,172 --> 00:23:35,448 How would you explain why you left? 502 00:23:35,586 --> 00:23:38,241 - The shortest answer I can think, is that it was 503 00:23:38,379 --> 00:23:40,310 conversations I was having with people on Twitter, 504 00:23:40,448 --> 00:23:42,758 that first allowed me to see inconsistencies 505 00:23:42,896 --> 00:23:44,586 within Westboro's ideology. 506 00:23:44,724 --> 00:23:48,103 Because the way that I saw outsiders generally... 507 00:23:48,241 --> 00:23:50,034 Even, you know, people I went to school with, 508 00:23:50,172 --> 00:23:52,551 there was always that sense of otherness, 509 00:23:52,689 --> 00:23:54,620 always keeping them at arm's length. 510 00:23:54,758 --> 00:23:57,724 Once I got on Twitter, and started, you know, 511 00:23:57,862 --> 00:24:00,000 developing rapport with people, 512 00:24:00,137 --> 00:24:02,931 even though we obviously were on totally different sides 513 00:24:03,068 --> 00:24:06,275 of basically every scriptural issue, 514 00:24:06,413 --> 00:24:11,724 over time, it became this community for me. 515 00:24:11,862 --> 00:24:14,689 And I started to care about what they thought. 516 00:24:14,827 --> 00:24:17,103 And that made me start to think, you know, 517 00:24:17,241 --> 00:24:19,241 I started to care about how they felt. 518 00:24:19,379 --> 00:24:23,275 And then once that thread started to unravel, 519 00:24:23,413 --> 00:24:25,241 I couldn't unsee it. 520 00:24:25,379 --> 00:24:26,827 - What occurs to me though, 521 00:24:26,965 --> 00:24:31,517 is that all through Westboro practice and preaching, 522 00:24:31,655 --> 00:24:34,000 there are contradictions 523 00:24:34,137 --> 00:24:36,379 that you would've been aware of growing up. 524 00:24:36,517 --> 00:24:38,896 But they also had this kind of catch-all get-out 525 00:24:39,034 --> 00:24:41,724 to do with, well, you're mortal, 526 00:24:41,862 --> 00:24:44,379 and you can't understand stuff that's divine. 527 00:24:44,517 --> 00:24:46,517 You don't get to decide, you just have to obey. 528 00:24:46,655 --> 00:24:49,137 - Right. You know, we claimed to love people. 529 00:24:49,275 --> 00:24:51,517 This was the biggest contradiction of all, I think. 530 00:24:51,655 --> 00:24:55,344 And I was totally blind to it. 531 00:24:55,482 --> 00:24:58,586 How is it possible that we could at once think 532 00:24:58,724 --> 00:25:00,310 that we were loving our neighbour, 533 00:25:00,448 --> 00:25:02,448 and then at the same time, 534 00:25:02,586 --> 00:25:06,482 praying for God to kill them in all sorts of terrible ways? 535 00:25:06,620 --> 00:25:10,172 So, the old me, like, pre-Twitter, 536 00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:12,931 I would've found a way to justify it, 537 00:25:13,068 --> 00:25:15,344 I would've accepted their explanations for things. 538 00:25:15,482 --> 00:25:19,931 But once that crack was, you know, kind of there, 539 00:25:20,068 --> 00:25:21,931 I was not gonna go to any more funeral pickets. 540 00:25:22,068 --> 00:25:23,034 I wasn't gonna hold the signs 541 00:25:23,172 --> 00:25:25,103 that I believed were unscriptural. 542 00:25:31,551 --> 00:25:34,310 - The sense of community Megan derived from Twitter 543 00:25:34,448 --> 00:25:37,758 seemed to have had the effect of amplifying her inner doubts, 544 00:25:37,896 --> 00:25:39,758 and emboldening her to leave. 545 00:25:42,793 --> 00:25:45,241 Alongside that had been a feeling of resentment 546 00:25:45,379 --> 00:25:49,000 of what she saw as a takeover by the church elders, 547 00:25:49,137 --> 00:25:50,551 sidelining her mother, 548 00:25:50,689 --> 00:25:54,000 and, after she left, pushing out Gramps. 549 00:25:55,862 --> 00:25:57,482 So then how did it come about 550 00:25:57,620 --> 00:26:01,862 that Gramps kind of fell out of favour? 551 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,862 I mean, as I understand it, he was actually 552 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,689 voted out of the church. Is that correct? 553 00:26:06,827 --> 00:26:08,413 Yeah, that's what I've heard 554 00:26:08,551 --> 00:26:11,448 from multiple people who have left, since I did. 555 00:26:11,586 --> 00:26:15,275 And they all point to, like, the day that he was voted out, 556 00:26:15,413 --> 00:26:20,482 he had gone out onto the front lawn of the church 557 00:26:20,620 --> 00:26:23,068 and said, you know, called out to the people 558 00:26:23,206 --> 00:26:24,310 at the Equality House... 559 00:26:24,448 --> 00:26:26,275 - That's the rainbow-coloured house? 560 00:26:26,413 --> 00:26:30,137 Right. And said, "You're good people." 561 00:26:30,275 --> 00:26:31,793 And, you know, 562 00:26:31,931 --> 00:26:33,724 they kind of ushered him back inside and... 563 00:26:33,862 --> 00:26:36,551 Which would be completely contradictory 564 00:26:36,689 --> 00:26:39,275 to his entire ministry. 565 00:26:39,413 --> 00:26:40,965 - Absolutely. 566 00:26:41,103 --> 00:26:43,896 And he was, I think, at that point, 80, 567 00:26:44,034 --> 00:26:45,517 you know, 85. 568 00:26:45,655 --> 00:26:47,275 - What is your view? Do you think 569 00:26:47,413 --> 00:26:50,103 that he had a sincere change of heart at the end, 570 00:26:50,241 --> 00:26:52,689 or do you think that was a symptom of dementia? 571 00:26:52,827 --> 00:26:55,413 - I think he did have a change of heart, 572 00:26:55,551 --> 00:26:57,344 and they'll tell you that, you know, he didn't. 573 00:26:57,482 --> 00:26:59,068 Of course he didn't have a change in perspective. 574 00:26:59,206 --> 00:27:01,310 But the fact that it was the actual, 575 00:27:01,448 --> 00:27:04,862 like, the thing that triggered his expulsion, 576 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,758 makes me believe that it was real. 577 00:27:08,896 --> 00:27:11,310 Which is why, you know, I still have hope 578 00:27:11,448 --> 00:27:14,137 that I'll get to have my mom back someday. 579 00:27:18,034 --> 00:27:20,448 - It was encouraging to see Megan embracing a life 580 00:27:20,586 --> 00:27:22,896 so radically different to her old one. 581 00:27:23,034 --> 00:27:25,482 A testament to the power of human connection 582 00:27:25,620 --> 00:27:27,517 to catalyse change. 583 00:27:27,655 --> 00:27:30,103 But whether Gramps had really reformed 584 00:27:30,241 --> 00:27:32,068 remained an open question. 585 00:27:34,482 --> 00:27:37,655 I found myself wondering who might be next to go. 586 00:27:37,793 --> 00:27:39,620 I knew Megan had a sister, 587 00:27:39,758 --> 00:27:41,931 Shirley's only remaining daughter, Becca. 588 00:27:44,275 --> 00:27:46,034 Back in Topeka, I found her picketing 589 00:27:46,172 --> 00:27:48,344 a local church under the watchful eye 590 00:27:48,482 --> 00:27:52,172 of her older brother, and Westboro elder, Sam. 591 00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:54,724 Becca, are you alright to talk about your sisters 592 00:27:54,862 --> 00:27:56,931 - Megan and Grace a little bit? - Sure. Yeah. 593 00:27:57,068 --> 00:27:58,827 What do you wanna say about that? 594 00:27:58,965 --> 00:28:02,000 I say that it's a pretty sad and sorrowful thing. 595 00:28:02,137 --> 00:28:04,000 I've been touch in with Megan a little bit, 596 00:28:04,137 --> 00:28:09,344 and from her book, the sense I got was there was a little bit 597 00:28:09,482 --> 00:28:12,758 of a changing of the guard at Westboro, 598 00:28:12,896 --> 00:28:17,034 and that maybe your mum had been somewhat pushed to the side. 599 00:28:17,172 --> 00:28:20,620 And that there were elders who were maybe 600 00:28:20,758 --> 00:28:23,068 calling the shots more, 601 00:28:23,206 --> 00:28:26,482 and that that was difficult, you know, 602 00:28:26,620 --> 00:28:29,034 for her and for Grace, maybe for you as well. 603 00:28:29,172 --> 00:28:32,137 - I haven't read anything Megan's put out since she left. 604 00:28:32,275 --> 00:28:34,448 Well, you would be able to read it, though, wouldn't you? 605 00:28:34,586 --> 00:28:36,275 - I don't read articles, I don't read the books. 606 00:28:36,413 --> 00:28:38,379 I've got my path to run in front of me, 607 00:28:38,517 --> 00:28:40,344 and I put blinders on. 608 00:28:40,482 --> 00:28:43,034 She knows how to push my buttons, and she's my sister, 609 00:28:43,172 --> 00:28:45,724 and she was that child right in front of me. 610 00:28:45,862 --> 00:28:47,241 - You were very close. 611 00:28:47,379 --> 00:28:49,620 I depended on her for a lot of things for a lot of years. 612 00:28:49,758 --> 00:28:51,862 And I thought at one point... 613 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,655 when I saw that she was derailing, 614 00:28:54,793 --> 00:28:56,827 when I saw that things were going south 615 00:28:56,965 --> 00:28:59,448 and she would be in my prayers every night. 616 00:28:59,586 --> 00:29:02,551 It was so distressing, watching her... 617 00:29:02,689 --> 00:29:04,551 and leading Grace. 618 00:29:04,689 --> 00:29:08,965 - And then she walked away. 619 00:29:09,103 --> 00:29:12,379 We didn't leave her, she walked away. 620 00:29:12,517 --> 00:29:15,517 So you don't get to come with her perspective, 621 00:29:15,655 --> 00:29:19,827 and her gripes against the way that God set up 622 00:29:19,965 --> 00:29:22,620 the order of things in this world. 623 00:29:22,758 --> 00:29:25,655 That a woman submits herself to her husband, 624 00:29:25,793 --> 00:29:27,965 that the man is the head of the woman. 625 00:29:28,103 --> 00:29:29,724 And to drag us through the mud 626 00:29:29,862 --> 00:29:31,482 because she doesn't wanna submit, 627 00:29:31,620 --> 00:29:33,931 where we do want to submit. 628 00:29:34,068 --> 00:29:35,758 And you can try to make us ashamed, 629 00:29:35,896 --> 00:29:38,551 and say we're misogynistic and all that crap, 630 00:29:38,689 --> 00:29:40,862 and you can take it right to hell with you, 631 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,931 if that's what you're gonna hold on to. 632 00:29:43,068 --> 00:29:45,310 - We were getting to a moment of emotion with Becca, 633 00:29:45,448 --> 00:29:47,344 and you just kind of stomped all over it. 634 00:29:47,482 --> 00:29:48,724 - Yeah. 635 00:29:48,862 --> 00:29:50,827 - Becca: I love it. I give him full permission. 636 00:29:50,965 --> 00:29:52,862 It's almost like it was symptomatic 637 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,448 of the narrative that I was pushing, 638 00:29:55,586 --> 00:29:58,413 that I asked a female member of the church a question, 639 00:29:58,551 --> 00:30:01,793 and then the elder came and spoke for her. 640 00:30:01,931 --> 00:30:03,724 And you asked my mom about it, and she answered you! 641 00:30:03,862 --> 00:30:05,586 - But you're OK with that? - He spoke with me. 642 00:30:05,724 --> 00:30:07,241 - You liked that he answered for you? 643 00:30:07,379 --> 00:30:10,344 I love how the Lord 644 00:30:10,482 --> 00:30:13,758 puts the order of things in the Earth. 645 00:30:13,896 --> 00:30:15,896 There's great help to be had there, 646 00:30:16,034 --> 00:30:18,068 and there's great safety to be had there. 647 00:30:18,206 --> 00:30:21,896 - What you're doing is, you're setting up a world 648 00:30:22,034 --> 00:30:23,931 where women are so helpless, 649 00:30:24,068 --> 00:30:26,517 that they can't say what they think and what they mean 650 00:30:26,655 --> 00:30:28,137 in front of men. Is that what it is? 651 00:30:28,275 --> 00:30:30,034 They can if you're there speaking for them. 652 00:30:30,172 --> 00:30:31,931 - OK, 'cause she's my sister too, Louis, 653 00:30:32,068 --> 00:30:34,448 but you didn't come asking me these questions, did ya? 654 00:30:34,586 --> 00:30:36,413 - Would you like me to? 655 00:30:36,551 --> 00:30:38,310 - That's a cute play you've got. 656 00:30:39,551 --> 00:30:41,620 We can schedule an interview. 657 00:30:41,758 --> 00:30:45,586 - Uh-huh. This is subversive behaviour on your part. 658 00:30:45,724 --> 00:30:46,862 It's kind of scary, though, 659 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,034 that you've been condemned to such a thing. 660 00:30:49,172 --> 00:30:51,896 To be the accuser of the brethren. 661 00:30:52,034 --> 00:30:54,689 That's work of Satan. 662 00:30:54,827 --> 00:30:56,310 - Dude, why are you still here? 663 00:30:56,448 --> 00:30:58,344 - Why are you still here? - 'Cause I want him here! 664 00:30:58,482 --> 00:31:02,758 - Oh, Louis. You're so slimy and slithery, bro. 665 00:31:04,586 --> 00:31:06,965 - What are you doing for work these days? 666 00:31:07,103 --> 00:31:10,068 - I work at Phelps Chartered Law Firm. 667 00:31:10,206 --> 00:31:11,931 - Cool. - Kind of play of lot of roles. 668 00:31:12,068 --> 00:31:15,206 - You're not married? - Not married yet. 669 00:31:15,344 --> 00:31:18,724 - Better to walk alone? - I'm engaged. 670 00:31:18,862 --> 00:31:20,310 - Are you? - Yeah. 671 00:31:20,448 --> 00:31:23,103 - Who to? - [laughs] 672 00:31:23,241 --> 00:31:26,551 - Are you serious? When did that happen? 673 00:31:26,689 --> 00:31:28,551 - February 7th. 674 00:31:28,689 --> 00:31:31,448 - It's all quite new. - It's very new. 675 00:31:31,586 --> 00:31:33,586 Joshua. Congrats. 676 00:31:33,724 --> 00:31:36,413 - I think it's time to go. - Hey, we've gotta go, guys. 677 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,137 - Becca's engagement to newcomer Josh Jakes 678 00:31:42,275 --> 00:31:44,827 suggested she might not be leaving any time soon. 679 00:31:49,034 --> 00:31:51,275 Despite the hate they spew at pickets, 680 00:31:51,413 --> 00:31:55,379 in theory, anyone can attend a Westboro Sunday service. 681 00:31:55,517 --> 00:31:58,413 This is sometimes the first step on the road to joining. 682 00:32:03,241 --> 00:32:06,482 Among those preparing to worship was a new face. 683 00:32:07,965 --> 00:32:09,655 - Louis. - Good to meet you, Louis. 684 00:32:09,793 --> 00:32:11,241 - How's it going? - It's going alright. 685 00:32:11,379 --> 00:32:13,620 - What's your name? - J, just the letter J. 686 00:32:13,758 --> 00:32:15,103 - So what's going on with you? 687 00:32:15,241 --> 00:32:17,241 How did you hear about it, and why are you here? 688 00:32:17,379 --> 00:32:19,517 - I've seen both of your previous documentaries, 689 00:32:19,655 --> 00:32:21,827 and actually I wanted to thank you for that. 690 00:32:21,965 --> 00:32:24,758 Because I was able to come to my current position 691 00:32:24,896 --> 00:32:27,034 in relation to the Westboro Church, 692 00:32:27,172 --> 00:32:28,275 as a result partly of watching 693 00:32:28,413 --> 00:32:30,034 those two documentaries that you did, 694 00:32:30,172 --> 00:32:33,586 which I am about 90-some percent 695 00:32:33,724 --> 00:32:36,241 on the same page with Westboro's doctrine. 696 00:32:36,379 --> 00:32:39,965 - I made those programs from a humanistic perspective. 697 00:32:40,103 --> 00:32:41,448 - Right. 698 00:32:41,586 --> 00:32:44,620 As a way of showing how poisonous and hateful practices 699 00:32:44,758 --> 00:32:48,137 had grown out of a certain kind of religious practice. 700 00:32:48,275 --> 00:32:51,241 You didn't see that I was attempting to elicit... 701 00:32:51,379 --> 00:32:53,896 I saw what you were attempting to do, yeah, I did see that. 702 00:32:54,034 --> 00:32:55,827 - Psychological take, if you like. 703 00:32:55,965 --> 00:32:58,275 I heard what they were saying, 704 00:32:58,413 --> 00:33:00,103 and I really don't believe in my heart 705 00:33:00,241 --> 00:33:02,103 that they're a hate group. 706 00:33:02,241 --> 00:33:04,172 In fact, I'm pansexual myself. 707 00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:07,413 But because I'm a Christian, I'm a born-again Christian, 708 00:33:07,551 --> 00:33:11,827 I feel God's call to conform to the image of Christ. 709 00:33:11,965 --> 00:33:14,310 Hang on, wait a second. You just said... 710 00:33:14,448 --> 00:33:15,586 You're pansexual? 711 00:33:15,724 --> 00:33:17,000 - That's right. - What does that mean? 712 00:33:17,137 --> 00:33:20,000 Pansexual is essentially that my sexual attractions 713 00:33:20,137 --> 00:33:23,000 are not limited to any specific gender, 714 00:33:23,137 --> 00:33:24,896 gender identity or gender expression. 715 00:33:25,034 --> 00:33:26,379 - Do you mean... - It's not that I am 716 00:33:26,517 --> 00:33:28,379 attracted to everyone, but I could be attracted to anyone. 717 00:33:28,517 --> 00:33:31,310 But I believe that God's calling for me 718 00:33:31,448 --> 00:33:33,620 to conform to his image is more important 719 00:33:33,758 --> 00:33:36,241 than my fulfilling my earthly... 720 00:33:38,068 --> 00:33:40,068 urges and desires. 721 00:33:40,206 --> 00:33:43,931 - So you are celibate, is that right? At the moment? 722 00:33:44,068 --> 00:33:46,000 - That's correct. The first time I engaged in intercourse 723 00:33:46,137 --> 00:33:48,793 was August, and that was a mistake. 724 00:33:48,931 --> 00:33:53,517 You know, it's either you pursue temporary enjoyment 725 00:33:53,655 --> 00:33:55,241 and you suffer eternally, 726 00:33:55,379 --> 00:33:58,896 or you suffer for a little while to be in the presence of God. 727 00:34:03,172 --> 00:34:05,517 - In former years, Gramps's weekly sermons 728 00:34:05,655 --> 00:34:09,310 had been his chance to impart his fire-and-brimstone theology 729 00:34:09,448 --> 00:34:11,206 to the congregation. 730 00:34:11,344 --> 00:34:15,793 God put it in your wicked heart to start that war. 731 00:34:15,931 --> 00:34:18,034 It's almost 18 months now in the siege, 732 00:34:18,172 --> 00:34:20,344 you've got people eating their babies... 733 00:34:22,137 --> 00:34:25,379 and their small children, and each other! 734 00:34:25,517 --> 00:34:27,517 You're gonna eat your babies! 735 00:34:28,724 --> 00:34:30,689 - Since his death, the seven church elders 736 00:34:30,827 --> 00:34:32,413 took turns in the pulpit. 737 00:34:34,413 --> 00:34:36,448 - Man: Now, when it comes to this issue of arms, 738 00:34:36,586 --> 00:34:39,482 if there was ever a thing that people liked to flaunt... 739 00:34:40,379 --> 00:34:42,206 And it's sickening, really. 740 00:34:42,344 --> 00:34:45,172 People absolutely love for others to know 741 00:34:45,310 --> 00:34:46,931 about their acts of charity. 742 00:34:47,068 --> 00:34:50,689 Saying, "Here's my act of good." [laughs] 743 00:34:50,827 --> 00:34:53,551 - Louis: It was striking how much the preaching style, 744 00:34:53,689 --> 00:34:56,551 and even the message of the sermon, had mellowed. 745 00:34:56,689 --> 00:35:00,310 - Being a peacemaker means that you tell people 746 00:35:00,448 --> 00:35:02,241 how to have peace. 747 00:35:02,379 --> 00:35:07,172 Lasting, real, true peace. 748 00:35:07,310 --> 00:35:11,517 And that comes in one way, being right with God. 749 00:35:19,344 --> 00:35:21,310 - Increasingly I wondered if Gramps's death 750 00:35:21,448 --> 00:35:24,448 might've led to a toning down of church practices, 751 00:35:24,586 --> 00:35:28,275 and whether it might even foretell bigger changes. 752 00:35:28,413 --> 00:35:32,448 And it was possible the process had started before he died. 753 00:35:32,586 --> 00:35:34,482 By now I'd heard from more sources 754 00:35:34,620 --> 00:35:36,482 that Gramps had been excommunicated 755 00:35:36,620 --> 00:35:38,931 for behaviour related to dementia. 756 00:35:40,517 --> 00:35:42,689 With the church unwilling to discuss it, 757 00:35:42,827 --> 00:35:45,137 I'd made contact with one of the most recent defectors, 758 00:35:45,275 --> 00:35:47,103 who had been at the meeting where Gramps 759 00:35:47,241 --> 00:35:49,068 had been voted out of the church. 760 00:35:50,379 --> 00:35:53,379 Fred Phelps's granddaughter, and Shirley's niece, 761 00:35:53,517 --> 00:35:55,482 21-year-old Rachel Hockenbarger. 762 00:35:58,137 --> 00:35:59,517 - Hi, Rachel? - Hi, yeah. 763 00:35:59,655 --> 00:36:00,758 - Louis. - Yeah. 764 00:36:00,896 --> 00:36:02,448 - How you doing? - I'm good, how are you? 765 00:36:02,586 --> 00:36:03,862 Nice to meet you. Can we come in? 766 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,241 - Yeah, of course. - Look at you! 767 00:36:05,379 --> 00:36:07,827 - You don't look very Westboro. - That's the point! 768 00:36:09,965 --> 00:36:11,482 - Tell me about your tattoos? 769 00:36:11,620 --> 00:36:14,482 - So I have this one down here. This is the first one I got, 770 00:36:14,620 --> 00:36:17,758 and it is my siblings and I's initials, 771 00:36:17,896 --> 00:36:21,000 first and second initial, all in binary code. 772 00:36:22,620 --> 00:36:25,206 And then I have one up here. 773 00:36:25,344 --> 00:36:27,034 - "Whatever nightmares the future holds, 774 00:36:27,172 --> 00:36:29,793 "are dreams compared to what's behind me." 775 00:36:29,931 --> 00:36:32,586 Yes, it's a quote from 'Guardians of the Galaxy', 776 00:36:32,724 --> 00:36:35,620 Gamora says it, which is who that glass is. 777 00:36:35,758 --> 00:36:37,689 She's one of my favourite characters. 778 00:36:37,827 --> 00:36:39,689 - Does that mean something to you? 779 00:36:39,827 --> 00:36:41,448 - Yeah, just trying to move forward. 780 00:36:41,586 --> 00:36:43,758 And that was a concept I played with a long time in my head. 781 00:36:43,896 --> 00:36:45,724 - Were you a true believer? 782 00:36:45,862 --> 00:36:48,379 Did you sincerely believe when you were inside? 783 00:36:48,517 --> 00:36:52,068 - For a long time, yeah. I was baptised when I was ten. 784 00:36:52,206 --> 00:36:53,517 - Which is quite young, isn't it? 785 00:36:53,655 --> 00:36:56,862 - Yes. Not the youngest, but I was quite young. 786 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,758 I was just so angry all the time, 787 00:36:58,896 --> 00:37:01,103 because I was being forced to hate people. 788 00:37:01,241 --> 00:37:04,793 And I was always told that I was, like, blessed 789 00:37:04,931 --> 00:37:07,275 to be born where I was born, but I didn't feel that way. 790 00:37:07,413 --> 00:37:10,206 - I felt like it was a curse. - Why? 791 00:37:10,344 --> 00:37:12,034 Because you go out to pickets, 792 00:37:12,172 --> 00:37:14,586 and you get things thrown at you, you get screamed at, 793 00:37:14,724 --> 00:37:17,000 and it's just, everybody hates you, 794 00:37:17,137 --> 00:37:19,379 and you hate yourself for it. 795 00:37:23,827 --> 00:37:27,758 - So you were there when Gramps, 796 00:37:27,896 --> 00:37:31,068 - your grandfather, died? - Yeah. 797 00:37:33,758 --> 00:37:36,275 And one thing that's been alleged 798 00:37:36,413 --> 00:37:38,793 is that he was out of favour when he died. 799 00:37:38,931 --> 00:37:41,965 - Yeah, it was very true. Um, they... 800 00:37:44,620 --> 00:37:47,206 He was very sick and they isolated him 801 00:37:47,344 --> 00:37:50,379 to his own house, and made him live there by himself, 802 00:37:50,517 --> 00:37:53,137 when he was too old and too sick to take care of himself. 803 00:37:53,275 --> 00:37:57,034 And then they ended up moving him to, like, a hospice home. 804 00:37:57,172 --> 00:38:00,103 - What had he done wrong to be out of favour? 805 00:38:00,241 --> 00:38:03,344 - They said he was mistreating his wife, 806 00:38:03,482 --> 00:38:07,103 and then he had told the people across the street 807 00:38:07,241 --> 00:38:09,758 at The Rainbow House that they were good people. 808 00:38:09,896 --> 00:38:12,655 Do you think this thing happened with The Rainbow House? 809 00:38:12,793 --> 00:38:15,827 - I do think it happened. Like, obviously I didn't see it, 810 00:38:15,965 --> 00:38:20,241 but it's been talked about with, like, the group. 811 00:38:20,379 --> 00:38:22,275 - The church members at the time discussed it? 812 00:38:22,413 --> 00:38:23,482 - Yeah. 813 00:38:23,620 --> 00:38:25,310 - And it was seen as what? Evidence of... 814 00:38:25,448 --> 00:38:27,620 That he had fallen out of faith. 815 00:38:27,758 --> 00:38:29,448 They see a lot of, like, especially, like, 816 00:38:29,586 --> 00:38:34,068 mental illnesses and stuff like that as demons, as a curse. 817 00:38:34,206 --> 00:38:38,068 And so they're like, if God let that happen to him 818 00:38:38,206 --> 00:38:42,172 then it is how he is as a person basically. 819 00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:46,172 - So it wouldn't be purely medical? 820 00:38:46,310 --> 00:38:47,379 - No. 821 00:38:47,517 --> 00:38:51,034 It would be some symptom of divine disfavour? 822 00:38:51,172 --> 00:38:53,275 - Yes. They don't like to talk about it 823 00:38:53,413 --> 00:38:55,413 because, you know, if you kicked him out, 824 00:38:55,551 --> 00:38:58,896 then what strength do you have, what's your foundation? 825 00:38:59,034 --> 00:39:01,482 - Right, because if it turns out he was fallible... 826 00:39:01,620 --> 00:39:03,034 Mm-hmm. 827 00:39:03,172 --> 00:39:06,137 ..then, you know, maybe a lot of the other interpretations 828 00:39:06,275 --> 00:39:08,172 he put on things were incorrect. 829 00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:10,379 Yep. [sighs] 830 00:39:12,724 --> 00:39:14,586 - Do you think they'll ever change, 831 00:39:14,724 --> 00:39:20,034 and there's a chance of it all becoming almost normal? 832 00:39:20,172 --> 00:39:22,034 - Maybe. I can't expect it, 833 00:39:22,172 --> 00:39:24,000 but like I do have, like, some hope that, like, 834 00:39:24,137 --> 00:39:27,137 something will trigger this, like, compete unravel of it. 835 00:39:27,275 --> 00:39:30,448 You know, every kingdom falls, it's bound to happen eventually. 836 00:39:30,586 --> 00:39:34,275 But I don't wanna sit around and wait for it to happen. 837 00:39:41,137 --> 00:39:44,344 - The idea of Fred Phelps being cut off and isolated 838 00:39:44,482 --> 00:39:46,517 when he died seemed ironic, 839 00:39:46,655 --> 00:39:49,310 given his role in creating the doctrine. 840 00:39:50,896 --> 00:39:52,758 Gramps's removal had coincided 841 00:39:52,896 --> 00:39:55,965 with the increasing influence of the male elders, 842 00:39:56,103 --> 00:39:58,793 and it was clear something was changing at Westboro. 843 00:39:58,931 --> 00:40:01,241 Though exactly what, and whether for the better, 844 00:40:01,379 --> 00:40:02,931 was hard to say. 845 00:40:04,413 --> 00:40:05,896 With these questions in mind, 846 00:40:06,034 --> 00:40:08,517 I was paying a visit to another church leader 847 00:40:08,655 --> 00:40:12,448 who seemed to have been sidelined, Shirley. 848 00:40:14,827 --> 00:40:16,517 - Hello. - Oh, snap! 849 00:40:16,655 --> 00:40:20,103 - How are you doing? - Look at you, all in pink. 850 00:40:20,241 --> 00:40:23,275 Yeah. My mom lives here now. 851 00:40:23,413 --> 00:40:25,344 - How's she doing? - She's doing well. 852 00:40:25,482 --> 00:40:27,896 - Shall I sit here? - Sure, if you would like. 853 00:40:30,827 --> 00:40:33,034 So what's been happening? 854 00:40:33,172 --> 00:40:36,586 - [sighs] A lot of good stuff. 855 00:40:36,724 --> 00:40:39,137 - Yeah. And some not so good. 856 00:40:39,275 --> 00:40:41,551 - No, it's pretty much all good. 857 00:40:41,689 --> 00:40:44,655 - The picture I have sort of pieced together, 858 00:40:44,793 --> 00:40:49,068 is that Gramps died and I've been told 859 00:40:49,206 --> 00:40:54,275 that he'd been voted out of the church in 2013. 860 00:40:54,413 --> 00:40:57,931 And I'd heard that one of the reasons he was voted out 861 00:40:58,068 --> 00:41:03,000 was because he had approached The Rainbow House, 862 00:41:03,137 --> 00:41:05,620 next door to where the chapel is, 863 00:41:05,758 --> 00:41:07,482 and said, "You're good people." 864 00:41:07,620 --> 00:41:10,206 And this was viewed as in contradiction 865 00:41:10,344 --> 00:41:12,241 to everything he'd ever preached. 866 00:41:12,379 --> 00:41:16,275 - He did not mean in any of his words to say, 867 00:41:16,413 --> 00:41:21,517 that it is OK to flagrantly violate 868 00:41:21,655 --> 00:41:23,517 the commandments of God. 869 00:41:23,655 --> 00:41:26,931 - Evidently, whatever your father said... 870 00:41:29,103 --> 00:41:32,413 was part of a case that was made against him, 871 00:41:32,551 --> 00:41:35,965 that led to him being voted out of the church. 872 00:41:36,103 --> 00:41:40,172 - You don't have the full facts about from the day 873 00:41:40,310 --> 00:41:43,275 that you're speaking of, to the day that he died. 874 00:41:43,413 --> 00:41:44,965 You don't have the full facts. 875 00:41:45,103 --> 00:41:46,724 - Well, would you care to enlighten me? 876 00:41:46,862 --> 00:41:48,413 No. 877 00:41:53,655 --> 00:41:58,137 I mean, I'm sure it's been immensely painful to you, 878 00:41:58,275 --> 00:42:02,172 to have two of your daughters leave at the same time. 879 00:42:02,310 --> 00:42:06,034 And then not that long after that, your son Zach. 880 00:42:07,482 --> 00:42:09,931 Would you like to give me a sense of how that felt? 881 00:42:11,931 --> 00:42:15,034 - Well, I know you have a child. 882 00:42:15,172 --> 00:42:16,896 - Three. 883 00:42:17,034 --> 00:42:20,000 - It didn't start the day they left. 884 00:42:25,413 --> 00:42:27,862 [tearfully] I told you when you here last, 885 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,448 that I see things in the children 886 00:42:30,586 --> 00:42:33,689 that cause me to wonder. 887 00:42:36,655 --> 00:42:41,758 But I also told you that if all of them leave... 888 00:42:46,655 --> 00:42:49,689 Sorry... [sobs] Just give me a second... 889 00:42:50,931 --> 00:42:56,655 ..that it does not change anything. 890 00:42:56,793 --> 00:42:59,655 It certainly doesn't change God. 891 00:42:59,793 --> 00:43:02,344 And it doesn't change what I'm gonna do. 892 00:43:02,482 --> 00:43:05,310 And don't ask me questions like that. 893 00:43:06,275 --> 00:43:10,517 It's... They were my children. 894 00:43:16,586 --> 00:43:18,620 Everything that I had... 895 00:43:25,931 --> 00:43:27,413 ..was theirs. 896 00:43:28,551 --> 00:43:33,413 Everything that I know was theirs. 897 00:43:35,137 --> 00:43:37,000 We treated them well. 898 00:43:40,655 --> 00:43:46,206 But, we don't... 899 00:43:49,931 --> 00:43:52,103 ..control the heart, 900 00:43:52,241 --> 00:43:55,413 we don't own salvation, 901 00:43:55,551 --> 00:43:58,172 we can't do anything about that. 902 00:43:59,655 --> 00:44:01,413 So... 903 00:44:01,551 --> 00:44:06,689 we go with the wisdom of God 904 00:44:06,827 --> 00:44:08,344 on all of these matters. 905 00:44:08,482 --> 00:44:13,965 It doesn't change the fact that it's sad, 906 00:44:14,103 --> 00:44:16,137 and painful. 907 00:44:18,724 --> 00:44:21,758 - It was strange to see a woman so broken by grief, 908 00:44:21,896 --> 00:44:23,896 and at the same time, so unyielding. 909 00:44:24,034 --> 00:44:26,689 A self-created victim of the hate 910 00:44:26,827 --> 00:44:29,068 she had sowed for so many years. 911 00:44:33,310 --> 00:44:35,206 - Man: You guys are gonna scare your child! 912 00:44:35,344 --> 00:44:37,896 I'm from your neighbourhood, man. I'm from Topeka. 913 00:44:38,034 --> 00:44:39,862 I know where y'all are from, man. 914 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,310 Y'all are all trash, y'all are terrible human beings. 915 00:44:42,448 --> 00:44:44,655 I don't care what you say. You're scaring your child. 916 00:44:44,793 --> 00:44:46,517 - And so we give a fuck what you say? 917 00:44:46,655 --> 00:44:49,344 - Louis: Another day of picketing basketball, 918 00:44:49,482 --> 00:44:51,172 and I had a moment to reflect on what 919 00:44:51,310 --> 00:44:53,551 I'd seen since being back. 920 00:44:53,689 --> 00:44:56,275 A church still dedicated to promoting bigotry, 921 00:44:56,413 --> 00:44:59,482 though in a slightly diluted form. 922 00:45:00,724 --> 00:45:03,034 Losing members, but making up numbers 923 00:45:03,172 --> 00:45:06,620 with a new wave of seekers and troubled souls. 924 00:45:06,758 --> 00:45:10,379 - My life now is lived for the Lord. 925 00:45:10,517 --> 00:45:12,896 It's not my life, it's not my decision. 926 00:45:13,034 --> 00:45:16,000 I'm here because the Lord brought me here. 927 00:45:18,103 --> 00:45:20,793 - A group going through changes, 928 00:45:20,931 --> 00:45:23,655 but with a future that was hard to predict. 929 00:45:29,793 --> 00:45:31,931 So who lives upstairs here now? 930 00:45:32,068 --> 00:45:33,965 - Nobody lives upstairs. 931 00:45:34,103 --> 00:45:37,103 - I decided to speak once more to Steve Drain. 932 00:45:37,241 --> 00:45:40,034 - So you've been here before. - Yes, I have. 933 00:45:44,275 --> 00:45:46,034 - You know, I'm gonna put a scenario, 934 00:45:46,172 --> 00:45:48,724 and you probably won't like it, but I'm gonna put it out there. 935 00:45:48,862 --> 00:45:51,103 So the view I think I'm gonna take is that 936 00:45:51,241 --> 00:45:54,137 obviously Gramps died, and since then, 937 00:45:54,275 --> 00:45:57,620 what I see is a little bit of a mellowing. 938 00:45:57,758 --> 00:45:59,310 Did that shock you when I said that? 939 00:45:59,448 --> 00:46:01,206 - It doesn't shock me at all and I... 940 00:46:01,344 --> 00:46:02,586 - 'Cause you recognised it. 941 00:46:02,724 --> 00:46:05,931 No, it's because it amazes me for you 942 00:46:06,068 --> 00:46:09,689 to think that you can come here for a couple of days, 943 00:46:09,827 --> 00:46:12,103 and now you've got the new view of our church. 944 00:46:12,241 --> 00:46:13,827 - Well, I knew you wouldn't agree with it. 945 00:46:13,965 --> 00:46:15,448 - No, it's not that I don't agree with it. 946 00:46:15,586 --> 00:46:18,275 Hey, listen, you still, you still keep trying 947 00:46:18,413 --> 00:46:20,551 to fit a square peg in a round hole, Louis. 948 00:46:20,689 --> 00:46:23,344 We love the Lord, that's what we do here. 949 00:46:23,482 --> 00:46:24,724 Mmm. I don't think that's the part 950 00:46:24,862 --> 00:46:25,965 that people are offended by. 951 00:46:26,103 --> 00:46:27,689 - What are they offended by? - Well... 952 00:46:27,827 --> 00:46:30,379 The word of God, that's what they're offended by. 953 00:46:30,517 --> 00:46:34,655 I think the wanton use of the term "fag" is... 954 00:46:34,793 --> 00:46:37,379 Really? That's the hill to die on? 955 00:46:37,517 --> 00:46:39,620 How about this, they're sodomites, 956 00:46:39,758 --> 00:46:41,034 it's a filthy sin. 957 00:46:41,172 --> 00:46:44,206 And we're not gonna sit here and sanitise it, 958 00:46:44,344 --> 00:46:46,241 because the world wants to sanitise 959 00:46:46,379 --> 00:46:49,448 that word etymologically, into respectability. Fags. 960 00:46:49,586 --> 00:46:51,793 - Well, yesterday the "F" word was only on one placard 961 00:46:51,931 --> 00:46:53,000 out of about 25. 962 00:46:53,137 --> 00:46:54,448 Well, that's because we have so many... 963 00:46:54,586 --> 00:46:56,551 In the old days, it'd be half of them would say stuff like that. 964 00:46:56,689 --> 00:46:58,448 - That's because we have so many more messages. 965 00:46:58,586 --> 00:47:00,172 Come here. Look here. 966 00:47:03,103 --> 00:47:05,620 That's common vernacular, right there. 967 00:47:05,758 --> 00:47:07,068 "Most people go to hell." 968 00:47:07,206 --> 00:47:09,241 Does that not worry you? Well, check this out... 969 00:47:09,379 --> 00:47:11,655 But you could see that in any kind of fundamentalist, 970 00:47:11,793 --> 00:47:14,034 or evangelical corner of the street, 971 00:47:14,172 --> 00:47:15,896 The End Is Nigh, Ministry, what you're... 972 00:47:16,034 --> 00:47:18,000 Then go and do a documentary on them then. 973 00:47:18,137 --> 00:47:20,206 - That is classic Phelps. 974 00:47:20,344 --> 00:47:21,965 - I made that sign. - Yeah. 975 00:47:22,103 --> 00:47:23,724 But, you know, those aren't Easter bunny heads. 976 00:47:23,862 --> 00:47:25,551 Those are Playboy Bunny heads. 977 00:47:25,689 --> 00:47:27,965 - Yes, they are. - On fag bodies so... 978 00:47:28,103 --> 00:47:33,413 - Is it still the case that you rejoice, 979 00:47:33,551 --> 00:47:37,965 and are happy at the idea of, 980 00:47:38,103 --> 00:47:39,517 say, soldiers being blown up, 981 00:47:39,655 --> 00:47:42,310 or people being killed in spree shootings? 982 00:47:42,448 --> 00:47:44,172 Those are righteous judgements of God, 983 00:47:44,310 --> 00:47:46,896 because he certainly not only could've prevented it, 984 00:47:47,034 --> 00:47:50,310 but would have prevented if his will dictated so. 985 00:47:50,448 --> 00:47:52,413 Right, I got that, but I'm asking a really simple question. 986 00:47:52,551 --> 00:47:56,034 I have seen with my own eyes, members of this church 987 00:47:56,172 --> 00:48:00,758 laughing, hooting, jubilating at funeral pickets, 988 00:48:00,896 --> 00:48:03,620 right, expressing joy and happiness. 989 00:48:03,758 --> 00:48:06,896 - I can rejoice over it being a righteous judgement of God. 990 00:48:07,034 --> 00:48:08,620 And on a human level, go, 991 00:48:08,758 --> 00:48:11,172 "Man, I think that's pretty sad that that person died." 992 00:48:11,310 --> 00:48:13,034 Doesn't mean that on a human level we don't think 993 00:48:13,172 --> 00:48:14,793 that it's a sorrowful thing that happened. 994 00:48:14,931 --> 00:48:17,034 - Do you know what facial expression 995 00:48:17,172 --> 00:48:19,068 goes with the idea of rejoicing sorrowfully? 996 00:48:19,206 --> 00:48:20,413 - You're not confusing... 997 00:48:20,551 --> 00:48:22,586 Is that a smile, or, what emoji is that? 998 00:48:22,724 --> 00:48:25,517 - It's a ludicrous concept. - It's not a ludicrous concept. 999 00:48:25,655 --> 00:48:27,206 And it speaks to the contradiction. 1000 00:48:27,344 --> 00:48:29,620 You're inhabiting a contradictory concept, 1001 00:48:29,758 --> 00:48:31,172 and you're trying make it sound reasonable, 1002 00:48:31,310 --> 00:48:32,379 it doesn't make any sense. 1003 00:48:32,517 --> 00:48:34,448 I think that what you're doing here 1004 00:48:34,586 --> 00:48:35,931 is kind of pernicious, Louis. 1005 00:48:36,068 --> 00:48:38,310 Can you elevate the dialogue a little bit here, brother? 1006 00:48:38,448 --> 00:48:40,275 The feeling I get is that you have 1007 00:48:40,413 --> 00:48:42,000 a more complicated attitude now. 1008 00:48:42,137 --> 00:48:43,931 It's less balls-out, 1009 00:48:44,068 --> 00:48:46,344 get horrible words in these people's faces 1010 00:48:46,482 --> 00:48:48,034 when they're in a vulnerable state. 1011 00:48:48,172 --> 00:48:50,275 Maybe the suffering that you've all lived through, 1012 00:48:50,413 --> 00:48:52,034 losing so many family members, 1013 00:48:52,172 --> 00:48:55,000 has induced you to be more compassionate and sympathetic 1014 00:48:55,137 --> 00:48:58,068 to the pain and suffering you inflict on others. 1015 00:48:58,206 --> 00:49:00,586 Well, I think that's kind of a simplistic viewpoint. 1016 00:49:00,724 --> 00:49:04,655 It's called growth, Louis, it's called change and growth. 1017 00:49:06,310 --> 00:49:08,827 - My conversation with Steve made me reflect 1018 00:49:08,965 --> 00:49:12,000 on the delicate position Westboro was in, 1019 00:49:12,137 --> 00:49:15,344 facing a choice of how much of Gramps's legacy to continue, 1020 00:49:15,482 --> 00:49:18,103 but unable to admit to any deviation 1021 00:49:18,241 --> 00:49:21,517 from a doctrine that allowed for no possibility of error. 1022 00:49:27,965 --> 00:49:29,793 - Thanks for getting the diaper bag. 1023 00:49:29,931 --> 00:49:31,896 - No problem. It's part of the service. 1024 00:49:33,931 --> 00:49:36,275 Megan was in town 1025 00:49:36,413 --> 00:49:39,103 on a visit to some other ex-Westboro members. 1026 00:49:39,241 --> 00:49:41,137 She decided to make an unannounced stop off 1027 00:49:41,275 --> 00:49:44,517 at her old home, and she'd invited me along. 1028 00:49:44,655 --> 00:49:46,620 So, what's the plan? 1029 00:49:46,758 --> 00:49:48,793 - My dad's birthday's on Saturday 1030 00:49:48,931 --> 00:49:51,103 and any time I'm around at one of these times, 1031 00:49:51,241 --> 00:49:54,275 I try to leave something... something there. 1032 00:49:56,172 --> 00:49:57,275 - Sorry, I can't see. 1033 00:49:57,413 --> 00:49:58,793 I'm just trying to figure out where I'm going. 1034 00:49:58,931 --> 00:50:00,620 - There we go! - [laughs] 1035 00:50:02,103 --> 00:50:03,517 Hey. 1036 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,310 - By now, in addition to Becca's engagement, 1037 00:50:09,448 --> 00:50:11,344 I'd learned Megan's brother Jonah 1038 00:50:11,482 --> 00:50:14,965 was also getting married to one of the Jakes siblings. 1039 00:50:15,103 --> 00:50:17,275 I was intending on sharing the news. 1040 00:50:19,275 --> 00:50:21,862 I wanna bring you up to date on... 1041 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,724 Well, I guess get your reaction 1042 00:50:24,862 --> 00:50:27,206 to what I've learned from being back a little bit. 1043 00:50:27,344 --> 00:50:29,620 But maybe we should do that after we walk around. 1044 00:50:43,620 --> 00:50:47,206 By giving a card to your dad for his birthday... 1045 00:50:47,344 --> 00:50:49,034 - Yeah. - ..you're doing that for you 1046 00:50:49,172 --> 00:50:51,000 or for him, or for some other reason? 1047 00:50:51,137 --> 00:50:53,827 It is for me, because I'm trying to be 1048 00:50:53,965 --> 00:50:56,586 the kind of person that I wanna be, you know. 1049 00:50:56,724 --> 00:50:59,206 It is also because there is this narrative in the church, 1050 00:50:59,344 --> 00:51:01,689 that when people leave, that they don't care about you. 1051 00:51:01,827 --> 00:51:03,137 Mm-hm. 1052 00:51:03,275 --> 00:51:04,551 That they just wanna go off and live a life of sin, 1053 00:51:04,689 --> 00:51:07,379 and that you don't matter to them anymore, 1054 00:51:07,517 --> 00:51:10,482 and all of these things. And it's just not true. 1055 00:51:10,620 --> 00:51:13,827 And I want them to know what we're thinking and feeling, 1056 00:51:13,965 --> 00:51:17,275 and hope it will have some kind of impact, 1057 00:51:17,413 --> 00:51:20,137 like, I don't know. 1058 00:51:20,275 --> 00:51:22,241 So I'm just gonna go do this real quick. 1059 00:51:45,206 --> 00:51:46,586 - Are you OK? - Yep. 1060 00:51:46,724 --> 00:51:48,000 - Yeah? - Yeah. 1061 00:51:49,413 --> 00:51:51,206 Do you think she might be in there? 1062 00:51:51,344 --> 00:51:53,034 Yeah. The van's there. 1063 00:51:55,655 --> 00:51:58,758 - But why don't I knock? - Out of interest. 1064 00:51:58,896 --> 00:52:01,551 My sister knocked once, and they turned off the lights 1065 00:52:01,689 --> 00:52:04,758 and pretended they weren't there. 1066 00:52:04,896 --> 00:52:08,241 I just hate the sense that I'm now, you know, 1067 00:52:08,379 --> 00:52:10,241 one of the people that they're watching out for. 1068 00:52:10,379 --> 00:52:11,793 That they're watching on the cameras, 1069 00:52:11,931 --> 00:52:14,206 and then sending these text messages to the whole group, 1070 00:52:14,344 --> 00:52:17,931 you know, to warn them of, you know, this... 1071 00:52:19,241 --> 00:52:21,034 whatever word you wanna use. 1072 00:52:21,172 --> 00:52:23,000 What word would they use? 1073 00:52:24,586 --> 00:52:27,862 Rebel. I mean, that's... an easy one that comes to mind. 1074 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,793 But it's kind of funny. 1075 00:52:29,931 --> 00:52:32,379 - Depraved, filthy beast. - Sure. 1076 00:52:32,517 --> 00:52:34,620 - That's a bit more colourful. - [laughs] 1077 00:52:40,827 --> 00:52:42,965 - Much has been written about the best way to reach 1078 00:52:43,103 --> 00:52:45,655 the indoctrinated minds of Westboro, 1079 00:52:45,793 --> 00:52:49,068 whether to confront, or protest, or ignore. 1080 00:52:49,206 --> 00:52:52,862 Megan's approach, a sustained and friendly engagement, 1081 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,275 was based on what had worked with her. 1082 00:52:58,620 --> 00:53:00,206 I think JR and Matt are in that one. 1083 00:53:00,344 --> 00:53:01,655 Is that right? 1084 00:53:01,793 --> 00:53:03,344 They're in the one that John and Paulette were in. 1085 00:53:03,482 --> 00:53:05,379 - Oh, that's this one. - That's this one? 1086 00:53:05,517 --> 00:53:07,413 Musical houses. 1087 00:53:07,551 --> 00:53:10,448 You know that... I feel weird telling you this, 1088 00:53:10,586 --> 00:53:13,413 you probably know it, that Becca's engaged. 1089 00:53:13,551 --> 00:53:19,000 [sadly] No. No. To whom? 1090 00:53:20,586 --> 00:53:23,206 Josh Jakes. 1091 00:53:23,344 --> 00:53:25,655 I think they were a family that arrived after you left. 1092 00:53:25,793 --> 00:53:28,206 - Yeah. - But you know about them? 1093 00:53:28,344 --> 00:53:31,827 I know about them, I did not know that she was engaged. 1094 00:53:33,379 --> 00:53:37,448 I mean, I obviously want her to be happy, obviously. 1095 00:53:37,586 --> 00:53:39,034 I just... 1096 00:53:41,103 --> 00:53:45,000 It's a lot harder to leave 1097 00:53:45,137 --> 00:53:47,551 when you are married and you have children. 1098 00:53:47,689 --> 00:53:49,931 I think it just makes things a lot more complicated. 1099 00:53:50,068 --> 00:53:51,827 And when I was here, one of the things 1100 00:53:51,965 --> 00:53:54,827 I eventually said to my mom in a moment of despair, 1101 00:53:54,965 --> 00:53:57,379 and I don't know what she thought about this, 1102 00:53:57,517 --> 00:54:02,068 was that there was no way that I would ever marry anyone 1103 00:54:02,206 --> 00:54:04,448 that had anything to do with this church. 1104 00:54:04,586 --> 00:54:06,689 Because when the elders took over, 1105 00:54:06,827 --> 00:54:10,724 the way that the husbands lord over their wives now, 1106 00:54:10,862 --> 00:54:13,931 I just absolutely believe that this place is toxic. 1107 00:54:14,068 --> 00:54:16,551 So that's what... When I think about Becca being, 1108 00:54:16,689 --> 00:54:19,551 you know, subjected to that, in any way... 1109 00:54:20,896 --> 00:54:24,137 - It just makes me really sad. - Mmm. 1110 00:54:27,517 --> 00:54:28,689 Oh, Becca. 1111 00:54:33,793 --> 00:54:39,793 And do you know Jonah is engaged, did you know that? 1112 00:54:46,206 --> 00:54:48,034 I feel so terrible. 1113 00:54:49,793 --> 00:54:52,103 - Oh no, I'm sorry. 1114 00:54:52,241 --> 00:54:55,620 Because I know this is supposed to be happy news, 1115 00:54:55,758 --> 00:54:58,103 and I really hope that it is for them. 1116 00:54:58,241 --> 00:55:01,517 I really, really do. I just... 1117 00:55:03,655 --> 00:55:06,137 It just makes it obviously a little less likely, 1118 00:55:06,275 --> 00:55:08,068 or a lot less likely 1119 00:55:08,206 --> 00:55:10,206 that I'll ever get to have them back. 1120 00:55:11,517 --> 00:55:13,310 So I feel so terrible... 1121 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,000 that this is the response. [sniffs] 1122 00:55:23,862 --> 00:55:26,068 I just love them so much, you know. 1123 00:55:26,206 --> 00:55:30,275 I know it's a very selfish hope, in some ways, 1124 00:55:30,413 --> 00:55:33,034 to have them out. I wouldn't hope for them to leave 1125 00:55:33,172 --> 00:55:36,724 if I didn't think that it was for their own good, you know. 1126 00:55:38,241 --> 00:55:40,965 It's a lot to take on board. 1127 00:55:41,103 --> 00:55:43,793 - Oh god, I just wanna go curl up and cry. 1128 00:55:45,413 --> 00:55:47,000 - Do you wanna take a break? 1129 00:55:48,482 --> 00:55:50,275 - I'm sorry. [sniffing] 1130 00:56:09,827 --> 00:56:13,448 - I just don't understand why it has to be this way. 1131 00:56:15,241 --> 00:56:18,965 It is just a heartbreaking waste. 1132 00:56:19,103 --> 00:56:21,482 All these lost years. 1133 00:56:28,103 --> 00:56:30,965 Grace said to our mom once, "If there were a God, 1134 00:56:31,103 --> 00:56:34,551 "why would he want it to be this way for her daughters?" 1135 00:56:34,689 --> 00:56:36,275 And she's our mother. 1136 00:56:38,551 --> 00:56:40,517 I still don't have an answer. 1137 00:56:51,827 --> 00:56:55,586 - Is Solvi doing OK? - She's doing really well. 1138 00:57:15,172 --> 00:57:17,793 ♪ Then sings my soul ♪ 1139 00:57:17,931 --> 00:57:22,206 ♪ My saviour God to thee ♪ 1140 00:57:23,103 --> 00:57:26,724 ♪ How great thou art ♪ 1141 00:57:26,862 --> 00:57:29,793 ♪ How great thou art. ♪ 1142 00:57:29,931 --> 00:57:31,689 - Louis: It would be difficult to overstate 1143 00:57:31,827 --> 00:57:33,620 the amount of grief caused by Westboro 1144 00:57:33,758 --> 00:57:36,655 and its doctrine of divine hate over the years. 1145 00:57:38,068 --> 00:57:41,206 A creed created by a spiteful pastor, 1146 00:57:41,344 --> 00:57:43,586 and passed down through the generations, 1147 00:57:43,724 --> 00:57:46,620 dividing families, and denying feelings. 1148 00:57:51,586 --> 00:57:53,689 But in my time back, I'd also seen reasons 1149 00:57:53,827 --> 00:57:56,241 to believe in the possibility of change. 1150 00:57:57,793 --> 00:58:00,862 Thanks in part to the death of its founder, 1151 00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,517 but also one ex-member's willingness 1152 00:58:03,655 --> 00:58:05,793 to fight hate with love, 1153 00:58:05,931 --> 00:58:08,241 and division with engagement. 1154 00:58:09,517 --> 00:58:10,586 - Megan: One point that I hope 1155 00:58:10,724 --> 00:58:12,103 you'll take away from all this is that 1156 00:58:12,241 --> 00:58:15,034 when people are in the thrall of poisonous ideology, 1157 00:58:15,172 --> 00:58:17,793 it's really not all about deliberate ill will, 1158 00:58:17,931 --> 00:58:19,793 or lack of intelligence. 1159 00:58:19,931 --> 00:58:22,241 It's about the unbelievable destructiveness 1160 00:58:22,379 --> 00:58:24,724 and staying power of bad ideas. 1161 00:58:24,862 --> 00:58:26,931 And the more of us who are willing to reach out, 1162 00:58:27,068 --> 00:58:29,413 to disagree without demonising, 1163 00:58:29,551 --> 00:58:31,931 the more likely we are to change hearts and minds, 1164 00:58:32,068 --> 00:58:34,379 to heal divisions, and to create a better society 1165 00:58:34,517 --> 00:58:36,344 for all of us in the process. 1166 00:58:36,482 --> 00:58:38,275 Thank you so much for having me. 1167 00:58:38,413 --> 00:58:41,413 [applause] 1168 00:58:46,310 --> 00:58:49,310 Captioned by Ai-Media ai-media.tv