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Downloaded from
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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I always first start
with the eyeball like this,

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00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,455
and you gotta leave a little bit
of space there for the goo.

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His little froggie eyelids.

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00:01:10,505 --> 00:01:13,029
That looks like sex parts
a little bit.

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00:01:15,249 --> 00:01:18,513
I've just always been
into drawing.

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And it takes tons of time
to come up with a character

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that you like enough
to draw over and over again.

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It's just been kind of
a slow drip of frogs

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throughout my entire life.

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It's just one little frog after another,

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after another, after another.

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And then eventually,
it was Pepe.

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It's a happy little frog.

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00:02:01,730 --> 00:02:04,298
What do people
get wrong about drawing Pepe?

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00:02:04,907 --> 00:02:07,301
Um...

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00:02:07,344 --> 00:02:10,826
Probably when they put Pepe
on the Internet saying, like,

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00:02:10,869 --> 00:02:13,089
"Kill Jews."

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00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,184
Are you familiar with this meme
called Pepe the Frog?

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00:02:21,228 --> 00:02:22,881
Okay,
so for those who don't,

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00:02:22,925 --> 00:02:25,319
here's the thing.
Here's Pepe the Frog, okay?

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00:02:27,712 --> 00:02:29,932
Have you seen, you know,
this frog meme?

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00:02:29,975 --> 00:02:31,063
Uh, forgot the name of it.

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00:02:33,501 --> 00:02:36,112
Many of you may remember
Pepe the Frog who once...

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00:02:38,941 --> 00:02:40,421
♪ I saw a man today

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♪ He led a big parade
Downtown ♪

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♪ And the doctor came

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00:02:46,166 --> 00:02:48,298
♪ He stands aside
Talking down ♪

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00:02:48,342 --> 00:02:49,821
♪ Hey

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00:02:49,865 --> 00:02:51,388
♪ It sounds like

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00:02:51,432 --> 00:02:54,043
I bet 90% of your viewers
haven't heard of Pepe the Frog.

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I thought
it was a frog in a wig.

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00:02:56,263 --> 00:02:58,047
The white
supremacist movement

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00:02:58,090 --> 00:03:00,745
has taken over Pepe the Frog!

36
00:03:00,789 --> 00:03:02,312
♪ 'Cause I've been really

37
00:03:02,356 --> 00:03:04,836
♪ I've been in love with you

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♪ I've been in love

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00:03:32,386 --> 00:03:34,301
♪ With you

40
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,479
♪ I've been in love

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00:03:38,522 --> 00:03:42,961
♪ With you

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00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,374
We're here
in the community thrift store,

43
00:04:04,418 --> 00:04:06,420
and, uh, it all started here.

44
00:04:08,204 --> 00:04:09,945
Ooh, let's see what's back here.

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00:04:12,861 --> 00:04:15,429
I do get, like,
waves of nostalgia

46
00:04:15,472 --> 00:04:18,388
for the youthful time in my 20s working here,

47
00:04:18,432 --> 00:04:19,911
just hanging out
with my friends, and...

48
00:04:19,955 --> 00:04:21,609
just riding a bike
around San Francisco.

49
00:04:22,349 --> 00:04:23,611
So...

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00:04:23,654 --> 00:04:26,788
I basically just want
to be young again.

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00:04:29,530 --> 00:04:31,183
Guess what.

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00:04:32,663 --> 00:04:34,839
This is my old
office space here.

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00:04:36,711 --> 00:04:40,105
It used to be
the toy department.

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00:04:40,149 --> 00:04:42,412
This is where I spent my days.

55
00:04:42,456 --> 00:04:44,936
-With...

56
00:04:44,980 --> 00:04:46,547
That tickles.

57
00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:47,591
...guys like that.

58
00:04:51,116 --> 00:04:54,424
I would have literally
a mountain of toys every day,

59
00:04:54,468 --> 00:04:57,384
and it was just
really inspiring.

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00:04:57,427 --> 00:05:00,212
It's like working
inside of a brain.

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00:05:00,256 --> 00:05:03,868
If I got caught up with my work, I would just draw.

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00:05:03,912 --> 00:05:05,827
Every day would be, like,
new toys that would come in

63
00:05:05,870 --> 00:05:07,568
and I would draw them, and so...

64
00:05:07,611 --> 00:05:09,831
It was my ideal job situation.

65
00:05:12,399 --> 00:05:15,402
Matt was always drawing that frog forever, I swear.

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00:05:15,445 --> 00:05:17,621
That was his go-to thing
to draw,

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00:05:17,665 --> 00:05:21,495
so I've been seeing
that frog's face...

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00:05:21,538 --> 00:05:22,844
for as long as I've known Matt.

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00:05:24,454 --> 00:05:27,065
- Ew!

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00:05:27,109 --> 00:05:29,154
-Ew! Ew, ew, ew.
-Excuse you.

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00:05:31,026 --> 00:05:32,419
I mean, the first time
I actually named him Pepe

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00:05:32,462 --> 00:05:34,377
was for this comics that I did called Playtime.

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00:05:36,118 --> 00:05:38,338
I was just messing around
on Microsoft Paint

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00:05:38,381 --> 00:05:40,557
and came up with Pepe and Brett.

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00:05:41,297 --> 00:05:42,342
Two characters.

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00:05:43,865 --> 00:05:47,042
They did things
like go to raves and paint.

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00:05:48,652 --> 00:05:50,437
It just kind of
naturally developed.

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00:05:52,134 --> 00:05:53,309
And then I just thought

79
00:05:53,353 --> 00:05:54,789
it would be fun
to have four characters,

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00:05:54,832 --> 00:05:56,747
kinda like the Ninja Turtles.

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00:05:56,791 --> 00:05:59,881
It became Boy's Club.

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00:05:59,924 --> 00:06:03,754
A lot of the humor is kind of
about post-college zone.

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00:06:03,798 --> 00:06:05,800
You don't quite know
what you're doing,

84
00:06:05,843 --> 00:06:07,976
but you like drinking
and hanging out.

85
00:06:08,019 --> 00:06:10,108
The four characters
were just reflections

86
00:06:10,152 --> 00:06:11,458
of my personality

87
00:06:11,501 --> 00:06:13,068
and the personality
of my friends.

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00:06:13,111 --> 00:06:15,070
Landwolf, the party dog,

89
00:06:15,113 --> 00:06:17,072
Andy was the jokester
of the group,

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00:06:17,115 --> 00:06:18,595
Brett liked to dance,

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00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:20,292
and then Pepe the Frog
was just kinda like

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00:06:20,336 --> 00:06:21,642
the little brother of the group.

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00:06:26,821 --> 00:06:29,258
The better
I got to know Matt,

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00:06:29,301 --> 00:06:32,653
the more, kind of, similarities I saw with him and Pepe.

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00:06:34,524 --> 00:06:36,221
Even the way Pepe looks,

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00:06:36,265 --> 00:06:38,789
like he kinda, like,
looks like Matt a little bit.

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00:06:42,489 --> 00:06:44,012
Matt was
a little bit different

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00:06:44,055 --> 00:06:46,971
from what most people
would consider

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00:06:47,015 --> 00:06:48,538
a typical cartoonist.

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00:06:50,061 --> 00:06:51,280
I think it's more like this.

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00:06:52,063 --> 00:06:54,022
Mm-hmm.

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00:06:54,065 --> 00:06:57,112
Button down shirt, nerd glasses.

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00:06:57,155 --> 00:06:59,375
He seem like he was,
like, a cool guy.

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00:07:00,071 --> 00:07:01,464
And Boy's Club,

105
00:07:01,508 --> 00:07:03,031
it's one
of the funniest comics of,

106
00:07:03,074 --> 00:07:05,425
I don't know,
the last ten years.

107
00:07:05,468 --> 00:07:08,253
What's happening here is
Landwolf is passed out,

108
00:07:08,297 --> 00:07:09,994
but that's like how
he passed out.

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00:07:10,038 --> 00:07:11,909
Like, he didn't quite make it
onto the bed.

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00:07:11,953 --> 00:07:13,345
I don't know why,
I thought he was trying

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00:07:13,389 --> 00:07:15,783
to jerk off and he passed out,
like while he was...

112
00:07:15,826 --> 00:07:16,914
Oh, I see.

113
00:07:17,567 --> 00:07:18,916
Yeah.

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00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,135
I guess it's open
for interpretation, huh?

115
00:07:20,178 --> 00:07:21,832
It is open for interpretation.

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Landwolf, I think
he kind of represents

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the kind of hairy,
gross roommate

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that you have sometimes.

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Kinda clogging
the drains.

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00:07:29,927 --> 00:07:32,016
It just made me think of our actual roommate, Chris.

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Issues.

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00:07:36,194 --> 00:07:37,805
It's weird talking
about these

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because they're meant to be read in the privacy of your own home.

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I never actually had to explain
any of this shit.

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00:07:46,553 --> 00:07:48,206
I met Matt
at a comics convention

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00:07:48,250 --> 00:07:49,991
where we're signing
next to each other.

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00:07:50,034 --> 00:07:51,514
I loved Matt's comics.

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I grew up with an older brother

129
00:07:52,907 --> 00:07:54,517
so I already had
that sense of humor

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00:07:54,561 --> 00:07:58,739
where I liked, you know,
boner jokes and barf and farts.

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00:08:00,654 --> 00:08:02,525
To me,
it felt very accessible.

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00:08:02,569 --> 00:08:04,135
Like, it's the sort
of masculinity

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00:08:04,179 --> 00:08:05,441
where you can be
in your underwear

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00:08:05,485 --> 00:08:07,617
singing to Shania Twain.

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00:08:07,661 --> 00:08:11,055
♪ Oh, oh, oh, go totally crazy

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00:08:11,099 --> 00:08:13,101
♪ Forget I'm a lady

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00:08:13,144 --> 00:08:14,537
♪ Men's shirts, short skirts

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00:08:14,581 --> 00:08:16,321
You know,
when I watched Seinfeld,

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00:08:16,365 --> 00:08:17,845
I liked Kramer the best.

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00:08:17,888 --> 00:08:20,500
When I read Boy's Club,
I liked Landwolf the best.

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00:08:20,543 --> 00:08:22,763
I guess Pepe's kind of more of an Elaine.

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00:08:22,806 --> 00:08:24,068
-I mean...

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00:08:24,112 --> 00:08:26,375
Elaine is great,
but, uh...

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00:08:26,418 --> 00:08:29,813
But yeah, if Elaine had become
a symbol of the alt-right...

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I would be like,

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00:08:31,249 --> 00:08:33,034
"Yeah, that's crazy.
That shouldn't be the case."

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00:08:35,123 --> 00:08:37,821
It seems incredibly random.

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People are like,

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"This is the character
we're going to use

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for the Internet."

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Like, "This is going to be
the mascot for the Internet."

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One day, he was doing
Boy's Club comics

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at my house.

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I remember I was sitting on Aiyana's little love seat

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00:09:00,061 --> 00:09:02,193
in her tiny ass apartment.

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He said...

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00:09:03,847 --> 00:09:05,370
"Can you...

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00:09:05,414 --> 00:09:08,286
stand over there
and bend over and,

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00:09:08,330 --> 00:09:11,028
and kind of make it look like
you're pulling your pants down

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00:09:11,072 --> 00:09:13,944
while you're bending over
so I can draw you?"

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00:09:13,988 --> 00:09:15,990
You know,
toilets are hard to draw.

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00:09:16,033 --> 00:09:18,732
People pulling down their pants
is hard to draw.

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So I kind of hunched over

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00:09:20,081 --> 00:09:22,562
and pretended
like I was pulling my pants down

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and he drew a little sketch.

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It ended up being Pepe.

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So, that was my butt.

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00:09:32,354 --> 00:09:33,529
And my toilet.

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00:09:33,573 --> 00:09:35,792
-Ahh!

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00:09:37,402 --> 00:09:39,491
So is Pepe's body
based on Aiyana?

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00:09:43,583 --> 00:09:44,975
Whatever kind of weird stuff

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kinda stuck with me
in childhood,

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sometimes it ends up
in Boy's Club, like...

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00:09:49,545 --> 00:09:52,243
I remember when I was
in second grade

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00:09:52,287 --> 00:09:56,073
and I went to the bathroom
alongside my cousin David.

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00:09:56,117 --> 00:09:58,815
And he pulled his pants
all the way down to go pee.

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00:09:58,859 --> 00:10:01,601
Underwear and everything.

178
00:10:01,644 --> 00:10:04,212
It seems
like it would feel really good

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00:10:04,255 --> 00:10:06,475
so I wanted to make a comic
about that.

180
00:10:07,607 --> 00:10:08,999
Feels good, man.

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00:10:11,436 --> 00:10:13,351
That was
the frame that...

182
00:10:13,395 --> 00:10:15,876
...started it all.

183
00:10:26,016 --> 00:10:27,148
I just thought
it was cool

184
00:10:27,191 --> 00:10:28,758
that I could just draw a comic,

185
00:10:28,802 --> 00:10:31,195
scan it in
and put it on MySpace,

186
00:10:31,239 --> 00:10:33,720
and then people
would see it instantly.

187
00:10:38,246 --> 00:10:41,466
Back then, it was kind of
newer territory and...

188
00:10:41,510 --> 00:10:43,251
and I liked the vibe
of MySpace a lot.

189
00:10:43,294 --> 00:10:44,774
It was like,
um, you were inside

190
00:10:44,818 --> 00:10:46,515
somebody's locker room
or something.

191
00:10:52,739 --> 00:10:56,351
At the time, I had some friends
that, like, were into exercise.

192
00:10:56,394 --> 00:10:59,397
And they found it online, like a before and after shot.

193
00:11:00,485 --> 00:11:02,009
It would say, "Feels good, man."

194
00:11:03,358 --> 00:11:04,751
I thought it was really weird.

195
00:11:04,794 --> 00:11:06,491
A lot of weight lifters would be, like,

196
00:11:06,535 --> 00:11:08,493
"Oh, I just finished
a great workout.

197
00:11:08,537 --> 00:11:09,712
Feels good, man."

198
00:11:11,627 --> 00:11:13,934
And I remember
just thinking, like,

199
00:11:13,977 --> 00:11:15,936
"Oh, that can't be
because of Pepe."

200
00:11:15,979 --> 00:11:19,330
You know, it's just some random accident.

201
00:11:19,374 --> 00:11:21,202
The catch phrase,
"Feels good, man,"

202
00:11:21,245 --> 00:11:22,682
started becoming more popular.

203
00:11:24,379 --> 00:11:26,424
It would be a photo
of a cat or something

204
00:11:26,468 --> 00:11:28,296
and it would say,
"Feels good, man."

205
00:11:28,339 --> 00:11:32,169
Or there was one version of it
that said, "Feels Goodman,"

206
00:11:32,213 --> 00:11:33,954
with John Goodman's face.

207
00:11:33,997 --> 00:11:36,347
It was pretty funny at the time.

208
00:11:41,657 --> 00:11:43,180
When I would check
my email,

209
00:11:43,224 --> 00:11:45,966
every so often,
somebody would send me a link

210
00:11:46,009 --> 00:11:49,360
to a Pepe being in some kind
of weird chat room

211
00:11:49,404 --> 00:11:50,840
or something like that.

212
00:11:50,884 --> 00:11:52,450
I remember specifically,

213
00:11:52,494 --> 00:11:54,365
my dad sent me a link
to this kid

214
00:11:54,409 --> 00:11:55,802
who made a Pepe song.

215
00:11:55,845 --> 00:11:57,238
♪ Hey, Pepe

216
00:11:57,281 --> 00:11:58,456
♪ I heard you pull
Your pants down ♪

217
00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:00,110
♪ All the way to go pee

218
00:12:00,154 --> 00:12:03,070
- ♪ Could you show me?
- ♪ Feels good, man

219
00:12:03,113 --> 00:12:04,985
♪ Feels good, man

220
00:12:05,028 --> 00:12:07,204
And it was like
this big nerdy thing.

221
00:12:08,684 --> 00:12:11,295
I was, like,
kind of interested in it

222
00:12:11,339 --> 00:12:13,297
as an Internet phenomenon,

223
00:12:13,341 --> 00:12:15,299
but I didn't really think
too much about it.

224
00:12:15,343 --> 00:12:17,824
I was just like,
ha ha, whatever.

225
00:12:17,867 --> 00:12:19,608
When it started
to snowball...

226
00:12:21,131 --> 00:12:24,874
and Matt didn't seem to mind,
I was a little, like...

227
00:12:24,918 --> 00:12:27,224
"Well. I mean, that's weird."

228
00:12:27,268 --> 00:12:29,139
I said,
"Sue them. Lawyer up."

229
00:12:30,662 --> 00:12:32,012
Man, I'm like an artist

230
00:12:32,055 --> 00:12:34,405
so I don't like suing
other artists.

231
00:12:34,449 --> 00:12:36,277
He's kind of just like, "Oh, yeah, man.

232
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,888
Just let them do
what they want."

233
00:12:38,932 --> 00:12:40,977
Using Pepe as a meme.
That's cool, you know.

234
00:12:41,412 --> 00:12:42,631
"Meme."

235
00:12:42,674 --> 00:12:44,807
I didn't even know
what a meme was

236
00:12:44,851 --> 00:12:47,331
or I don't even still know
if I'm saying that correctly,

237
00:12:47,375 --> 00:12:50,378
but it was through Pepe
that I learned what a meme was.

238
00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:06,307
It's hard to remember what I first thought

239
00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:07,699
when I saw Pepe the Frog.

240
00:13:07,743 --> 00:13:09,614
But I think
I kind of imagined, like,

241
00:13:09,658 --> 00:13:13,314
in my student days,
these guys hanging out with a...

242
00:13:13,357 --> 00:13:15,882
a spliff and having a nice time.

243
00:13:15,925 --> 00:13:18,319
And he was just rather
sort of hopeless and sweet

244
00:13:18,362 --> 00:13:21,104
and I just thought, "Aw, mm."

245
00:13:21,148 --> 00:13:22,279
Chick, chick, chick!

246
00:13:22,323 --> 00:13:23,933
Chickens, come on!

247
00:13:23,977 --> 00:13:25,413
The whole idea
of memes comes from

248
00:13:25,456 --> 00:13:29,069
Richard Dawkins' 1976 book,
The Selfish Gene.

249
00:13:29,112 --> 00:13:30,548
Most of the book is about

250
00:13:30,592 --> 00:13:32,986
what he called
"Universal Darwinism,"

251
00:13:33,029 --> 00:13:36,511
which said all of biology
is driven by genes,

252
00:13:36,554 --> 00:13:38,948
but culture is driven by memes.

253
00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:42,430
He said, look around you

254
00:13:42,473 --> 00:13:46,042
and you'll see floating about
in the primeval soup of culture

255
00:13:46,086 --> 00:13:48,175
is information
copied by imitation

256
00:13:48,218 --> 00:13:49,350
from person to person.

257
00:13:50,481 --> 00:13:52,309
So that would include chairs,

258
00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:54,529
trousers,

259
00:13:54,572 --> 00:13:56,009
hairstyles.

260
00:13:56,052 --> 00:13:58,489
All of these things
are only here

261
00:13:58,533 --> 00:14:00,013
because humans have copied them

262
00:14:00,056 --> 00:14:02,580
and the ones around us
are the winners

263
00:14:02,624 --> 00:14:04,756
in an evolutionary battle.

264
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,151
And then, gradually came
the concept of Internet memes.

265
00:14:09,805 --> 00:14:12,286
And people can easily see

266
00:14:12,329 --> 00:14:13,896
that process happening...

267
00:14:13,940 --> 00:14:14,897
with Pepe.

268
00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:22,296
Pepe is a wonderful example
of a meme

269
00:14:22,339 --> 00:14:24,602
that escaped out there
into the memosphere

270
00:14:26,256 --> 00:14:29,259
and suffered all the things
you'd expect of a meme.

271
00:14:33,133 --> 00:14:35,831
Pepe,
it's just folds upon folds.

272
00:14:35,875 --> 00:14:37,789
Um...

273
00:14:37,833 --> 00:14:41,445
The Pepe technique
is to draw too many lines.

274
00:14:41,489 --> 00:14:44,274
There's another fold
and then another fold.

275
00:14:44,318 --> 00:14:47,103
And, like, these...
these, like, lumps.

276
00:14:47,147 --> 00:14:50,150
And he looks really cracked out,
but that's the idea.

277
00:14:50,193 --> 00:14:52,979
It's like steering
into that mistake.

278
00:14:53,022 --> 00:14:55,329
He also symbolizes
steering into the mistake

279
00:14:55,372 --> 00:14:57,200
of staying
in your mom's basement.

280
00:15:00,508 --> 00:15:03,554
I saw Boy's Club
around 2007 or so,

281
00:15:03,598 --> 00:15:04,947
kind of when
he was first posting it

282
00:15:04,991 --> 00:15:06,557
on the Internet.

283
00:15:06,601 --> 00:15:08,777
Then it just kept appearing
in message boards.

284
00:15:09,821 --> 00:15:10,910
"Feels good, man."

285
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:13,956
In that little story,

286
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,612
he's owning the fact
that he's this weird guy.

287
00:15:17,655 --> 00:15:19,440
That moment of owning
your loserdom,

288
00:15:19,483 --> 00:15:21,703
like owning your weirdness,
right? It's like...

289
00:15:21,746 --> 00:15:23,357
perfect 4chan ethics.

290
00:15:27,622 --> 00:15:29,015
Christopher Poole.

291
00:15:29,058 --> 00:15:32,105
He was 14 years old,
living with his mom,

292
00:15:32,148 --> 00:15:36,239
spending all his time indoors,
on the Internet, and...

293
00:15:36,283 --> 00:15:39,895
He created this crazy monster
in his basement.

294
00:15:39,939 --> 00:15:41,853
Now, over
7 million people are using it,

295
00:15:41,897 --> 00:15:44,552
contributing over 700,000 posts per day.

296
00:15:44,595 --> 00:15:48,034
And we've gone
from 1 board to 48 boards.

297
00:15:52,299 --> 00:15:54,866
So 4chan,
just the way that it functioned,

298
00:15:54,910 --> 00:15:58,870
was super conducive
to creating memes.

299
00:15:58,914 --> 00:16:00,437
The way 4chan works
is that

300
00:16:00,481 --> 00:16:02,613
it's a Darwinian competition
for attention.

301
00:16:02,657 --> 00:16:04,267
So you have a post.

302
00:16:04,311 --> 00:16:06,704
And if the post gets
a lot of replies,

303
00:16:06,748 --> 00:16:08,271
it floats to the top.

304
00:16:08,315 --> 00:16:10,012
And if no one replies,
it sinks to the bottom

305
00:16:10,056 --> 00:16:12,188
and quickly dies.

306
00:16:12,232 --> 00:16:14,277
It's a winning
and losing system.

307
00:16:14,321 --> 00:16:15,539
And it's a lot like
a video game.

308
00:16:17,150 --> 00:16:18,673
There were all these
adolescent boys

309
00:16:18,716 --> 00:16:20,849
trying to own each other
in the competition.

310
00:16:22,155 --> 00:16:23,808
-And so it became this...

311
00:16:23,852 --> 00:16:26,594
...culture of saying
the most offensive thing.

312
00:16:28,726 --> 00:16:33,340
And so, like, Pepe kind of melts into that community.

313
00:16:33,383 --> 00:16:34,906
And all of the stuff
that just exploded

314
00:16:34,950 --> 00:16:36,647
out of the culture
four or five years later

315
00:16:36,691 --> 00:16:39,085
were being invented there
by all these clever people

316
00:16:39,128 --> 00:16:41,391
and they were all anonymous.

317
00:16:53,099 --> 00:16:57,190
On 4chan, you're talking to another text box

318
00:16:57,233 --> 00:16:59,931
so you're free to express
those kind of secret ideas

319
00:16:59,975 --> 00:17:01,585
that people have

320
00:17:01,629 --> 00:17:03,065
that they don't feel comfortable expressing in real life.

321
00:17:07,939 --> 00:17:10,072
I posted Pepes all the time.

322
00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:12,770
To not post Pepe
would be strange

323
00:17:12,814 --> 00:17:15,425
because it's just...
It's the meme.

324
00:17:16,122 --> 00:17:18,515
Post, send. Boom.

325
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:20,256
So there I am
right there.

326
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:24,173
It's hard to say why Pepe
gained popularity so fast.

327
00:17:24,217 --> 00:17:28,264
You could say it was just
an easily relatable image.

328
00:17:28,308 --> 00:17:31,354
I have my own collection. I have my reaction image folder

329
00:17:31,398 --> 00:17:33,748
filled with Pepe
and all the derivatives.

330
00:17:36,446 --> 00:17:39,188
The term was like,
"We feel alone together."

331
00:17:39,232 --> 00:17:40,668
Um, that was their idea.

332
00:17:43,758 --> 00:17:47,066
As it ages,
it just gets more desperate.

333
00:17:47,109 --> 00:17:50,112
They would describe themselves
as NEET.

334
00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:54,116
NEET stands for Not in Education Employment or Training.

335
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,163
The idea was that
they were trying to find a word

336
00:17:57,206 --> 00:17:59,208
that described their situation,

337
00:17:59,252 --> 00:18:02,037
for these sort of, like,
masses of kids

338
00:18:02,081 --> 00:18:04,953
who are just unemployed or just
kind of dropped out of life.

339
00:18:04,996 --> 00:18:07,347
I think the best thing would be
to start with a job.

340
00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:09,131
-No. No!
- Yeah, absolutely.

341
00:18:09,175 --> 00:18:10,306
She needs a job.

342
00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:14,658
No!

343
00:18:14,702 --> 00:18:17,400
So 4chan really comes
to embody that culture

344
00:18:17,444 --> 00:18:19,968
of checking out and living
in your mom's basement.

345
00:18:27,106 --> 00:18:29,673
It started in 2003
and still exists.

346
00:18:29,717 --> 00:18:32,198
So imagine people
being on there ten years,

347
00:18:32,241 --> 00:18:33,938
like it becoming a lifestyle.

348
00:18:53,088 --> 00:18:54,829
A lot of people are talking
that they have

349
00:18:54,872 --> 00:18:57,788
super hot basement layers
where they get to NEET it up.

350
00:18:57,832 --> 00:18:59,921
Well, I mean, basically,
nobody's really touching my game

351
00:18:59,964 --> 00:19:01,227
right now, you know? So...

352
00:19:01,270 --> 00:19:03,968
Got the Primo couch bed

353
00:19:04,012 --> 00:19:06,188
and I just kick this shit
all over the place

354
00:19:06,232 --> 00:19:07,755
because I just don't give a fuck
about anything.

355
00:19:07,798 --> 00:19:08,799
And, uh...

356
00:19:09,844 --> 00:19:10,975
It's... it's a life.

357
00:19:14,849 --> 00:19:16,807
I think I probably saw
images of Pepe first

358
00:19:16,851 --> 00:19:19,723
on the fitness board of 4chan.

359
00:19:19,767 --> 00:19:22,073
You know,
this frog was so prevalent.

360
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,122
What does Pepe mean to me?

361
00:19:28,297 --> 00:19:29,429
What does he mean to me?

362
00:19:32,214 --> 00:19:33,302
He's a frog.

363
00:19:36,262 --> 00:19:37,567
He's a sad frog.

364
00:19:39,265 --> 00:19:41,615
Sad frog.

365
00:19:41,658 --> 00:19:44,313
Now on 4chan,
the quote-unquote sad frog

366
00:19:44,357 --> 00:19:49,100
became the most popular image
for displaying sadness.

367
00:19:49,144 --> 00:19:52,713
There were other images that
would describe that feeling.

368
00:19:52,756 --> 00:19:55,368
You have things
like a picture of Keanu Reeves

369
00:19:55,411 --> 00:19:57,108
sitting on a bench.

370
00:19:57,152 --> 00:19:59,763
But maybe
he's just deep in thought.

371
00:20:01,461 --> 00:20:04,246
That sad frog.
You knew what it was about.

372
00:20:04,290 --> 00:20:05,856
Nothing else needed
to be said there.

373
00:20:07,902 --> 00:20:09,686
Pepe the sad frog.

374
00:20:11,122 --> 00:20:12,254
Pepe.

375
00:20:12,298 --> 00:20:13,473
Pepe what?

376
00:20:13,516 --> 00:20:15,257
-The sad frog.
- The sad frog?

377
00:20:15,301 --> 00:20:17,259
-Pepe the sad frog.
- What's that?

378
00:20:18,956 --> 00:20:20,871
You know, it wasn't something
that's really circulated heavily

379
00:20:20,915 --> 00:20:21,959
on, like, Facebook

380
00:20:22,003 --> 00:20:23,831
or any of that stuff
at the time.

381
00:20:23,874 --> 00:20:27,400
Pepe just kinda felt
like uniquely 4chan.

382
00:20:27,443 --> 00:20:28,749
Feels bad man.

383
00:20:28,792 --> 00:20:30,446
I didn't know
about the Boy's Club comic

384
00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:31,534
or anything like that.

385
00:20:31,578 --> 00:20:33,928
I did not know
who Matt Furie was.

386
00:20:33,971 --> 00:20:36,322
Even after
I learned about Boy's Club,

387
00:20:36,365 --> 00:20:38,324
I was like, "Oh, they're making a Pepe comic.

388
00:20:38,367 --> 00:20:39,629
Oh, that's cool."

389
00:21:11,792 --> 00:21:13,315
That's the story, um...

390
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,622
It's about
somewhere in the future.

391
00:21:15,665 --> 00:21:19,626
The mutants have taken over
and they make new children.

392
00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:22,019
I like this style of gun.

393
00:21:22,977 --> 00:21:25,022
Are you, uh...

394
00:21:25,066 --> 00:21:26,981
actually the guy that made...

395
00:21:27,024 --> 00:21:29,244
-that made Pepe? Yeah.
-Yeah, yeah.

396
00:21:30,419 --> 00:21:32,291
But it must suck for you
that it, uh...

397
00:21:33,988 --> 00:21:35,206
That he has become, uh,

398
00:21:35,250 --> 00:21:37,731
that he become hijacked by...
by 4chan.

399
00:21:37,774 --> 00:21:40,951
I mean, it definitely sucks,
but, nothing's forever, right?

400
00:21:44,694 --> 00:21:46,870
I'm just a spectator
to how things

401
00:21:46,914 --> 00:21:50,004
kinda mutate and evolve
on the Internet.

402
00:21:50,047 --> 00:21:53,486
You kinda see everything
as some big joke,

403
00:21:53,529 --> 00:21:57,141
but it's like kind of a window into this kinda like dark place.

404
00:22:00,754 --> 00:22:02,973
I'll draw you
a little Pepe.

405
00:22:03,017 --> 00:22:05,236
People on the Internet
have their own characters

406
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,456
that Pepe was interacting with.

407
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,502
There's one where
he's interacting with this guy.

408
00:22:09,545 --> 00:22:11,460
I think his name is Wojack.

409
00:22:13,941 --> 00:22:15,812
I would see pictures of Pepe,

410
00:22:15,856 --> 00:22:20,077
like, hugging this stark white
sad looking guy.

411
00:22:20,121 --> 00:22:21,383
And I was like, "What is that?"

412
00:22:24,386 --> 00:22:26,649
They call him, you know,
The Feels Guy or...

413
00:22:26,693 --> 00:22:31,219
Wojack is the proper term.

414
00:22:31,262 --> 00:22:35,441
He was for expressing
an unpleasant feeling.

415
00:22:35,484 --> 00:22:37,617
I'd be sitting there
and kinda be tense from anxiety

416
00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:38,705
kind of, like...

417
00:22:38,748 --> 00:22:39,967
You know, and being...
like that.

418
00:22:40,010 --> 00:22:41,621
And I go on the board,
I'd be like, "Okay.

419
00:22:41,664 --> 00:22:42,752
These are my people."

420
00:22:44,537 --> 00:22:46,147
We're all over the world but we all have

421
00:22:46,190 --> 00:22:48,105
these feelings of anxiety
and everything together

422
00:22:48,149 --> 00:22:49,846
and it's like a group therapy
on the Internet.

423
00:22:52,458 --> 00:22:54,764
Even when I was at work,
we had these security cameras.

424
00:22:54,808 --> 00:22:56,853
I would duck behind,
like, a stack of crates

425
00:22:56,897 --> 00:22:59,465
and quick to be, like,
"You dumb idiots."

426
00:22:59,508 --> 00:23:01,249
Then I'd check,
like, 10-15 minutes later,

427
00:23:01,292 --> 00:23:02,990
you know, to see
who's replying to me,

428
00:23:03,033 --> 00:23:06,123
and I would face an onslaught
of people just saying

429
00:23:06,167 --> 00:23:08,256
I was the most
hideous man alive.

430
00:23:08,299 --> 00:23:10,084
I would, you know, wear that as a badge of honor.

431
00:23:10,127 --> 00:23:12,826
I'd be like,
"Yes. I'm a true 4chan guy.

432
00:23:12,869 --> 00:23:15,959
I'm a true social reject.
I'm a true freak.

433
00:23:16,003 --> 00:23:17,787
Yeah, you're darn tooting."

434
00:23:23,010 --> 00:23:25,534
I'm a latecomer to Pepe.

435
00:23:25,578 --> 00:23:27,580
Uh, probably because
he's not my type.

436
00:23:29,408 --> 00:23:33,412
I came to Pepe
after he had gone dark.

437
00:23:35,501 --> 00:23:37,285
Pepe is a sad frog.

438
00:23:37,328 --> 00:23:40,027
He's never happy.
He's just sort of miserable.

439
00:23:45,772 --> 00:23:48,862
And I think,
for a huge population,

440
00:23:48,905 --> 00:23:51,342
online and offline,
we're not really allowed

441
00:23:51,386 --> 00:23:54,258
to express sorrow
or sadness or grief.

442
00:23:54,302 --> 00:23:57,784
And this sad little frog
arrives online

443
00:23:57,827 --> 00:24:02,049
in the midst of the push
to commodify the Internet.

444
00:24:03,703 --> 00:24:05,269
What was going on
at that point

445
00:24:05,313 --> 00:24:07,837
was that everybody
was super damn positive.

446
00:24:07,881 --> 00:24:10,971
The people were suddenly able
to make cash money

447
00:24:11,014 --> 00:24:12,886
out of their image

448
00:24:12,929 --> 00:24:15,584
which meant that they had to be, like, totally rad,

449
00:24:15,628 --> 00:24:19,327
happy, fitspo,
my best-self thing.

450
00:24:19,370 --> 00:24:23,287
And in drops Pepe...
ripe for the taking.

451
00:24:23,331 --> 00:24:24,854
Hey, guys. It's me, Lily.

452
00:24:27,378 --> 00:24:30,817
Today I'm going to be doing
a Pepe transformation.

453
00:24:35,517 --> 00:24:38,825
Pepe starts to percolate
into another population.

454
00:24:38,868 --> 00:24:41,958
We've got a lot more women,
a lot more girls.

455
00:24:42,002 --> 00:24:43,699
They were sharing
their own Pepe.

456
00:24:45,222 --> 00:24:47,877
Hey, guys. I just googled
what a meme was

457
00:24:47,921 --> 00:24:51,359
and I think I'm in love
with memes!

458
00:24:51,402 --> 00:24:54,101
Pepe... is the best.

459
00:24:54,797 --> 00:24:56,364
You draw the head,

460
00:24:57,539 --> 00:25:01,151
which is just like a butt.

461
00:25:01,195 --> 00:25:04,720
Things begin to spiral
really out of control.

462
00:25:04,764 --> 00:25:09,464
A couple of celebrities,
Nicki Minaj and Katy Perry,

463
00:25:09,508 --> 00:25:12,815
they had posted on Instagram
a couple of Pepe images.

464
00:25:19,387 --> 00:25:20,606
A lot of people see it for the first time.

465
00:25:20,649 --> 00:25:21,911
They wonder, "Who is this frog?

466
00:25:21,955 --> 00:25:23,434
What is this frog?
What is this?"

467
00:25:23,478 --> 00:25:25,306
I want to see
some more of that.

468
00:25:25,349 --> 00:25:29,528
They start making, like,
a migration over to 4chan.

469
00:25:29,571 --> 00:25:31,399
Young women
in particular,

470
00:25:31,442 --> 00:25:35,185
downloading Pepe images , using them for their own likes.

471
00:25:35,229 --> 00:25:37,100
And that was seen as...

472
00:25:37,144 --> 00:25:38,188
despicable.

473
00:25:38,232 --> 00:25:40,277
I love Pepe so much.

474
00:25:40,321 --> 00:25:42,541
The true Pepe is this Pepe.

475
00:25:42,584 --> 00:25:45,021
Pepe has green skin. It's so beautiful.

476
00:25:45,065 --> 00:25:46,936
It's different from frog.

477
00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:49,199
Pepe green is special green.

478
00:25:51,332 --> 00:25:53,464
It seemed to me,
like, invasion.

479
00:25:53,508 --> 00:25:55,336
You had people
that would come on and say,

480
00:25:55,379 --> 00:25:57,425
"Why are all you
virgin losers here?"

481
00:25:57,468 --> 00:25:58,818
You know,
"Where's the Pepe pictures at?

482
00:25:58,861 --> 00:25:59,906
Where are they at?"

483
00:25:59,949 --> 00:26:01,690
I strive to be Pepe.

484
00:26:03,387 --> 00:26:05,868
Just kidding.

485
00:26:05,912 --> 00:26:08,697
I hate Pepe the Frog.

486
00:26:08,741 --> 00:26:10,481
Pe... whatever his name is.

487
00:26:10,525 --> 00:26:11,831
Peep, Pepe.

488
00:26:11,874 --> 00:26:14,834
Either way, he's stupid.

489
00:26:14,877 --> 00:26:18,446
And I don't really know
why I made my face green

490
00:26:18,489 --> 00:26:20,622
to prove the point
that I hate Pepe.

491
00:26:20,666 --> 00:26:22,972
But let me prove it by saying,

492
00:26:23,016 --> 00:26:24,583
"I hate you, Pepe."

493
00:26:24,626 --> 00:26:26,759
I'm going to chop your head off.

494
00:26:26,802 --> 00:26:27,934
Your little...

495
00:26:27,977 --> 00:26:31,720
Your little froggie head off
like this.

496
00:26:31,764 --> 00:26:33,853
It was serious
to a lot of people, like,

497
00:26:33,896 --> 00:26:36,203
"This is the symbol
of our culture."

498
00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:41,382
And it really was turning into a total Pepe Fest.

499
00:26:53,176 --> 00:26:56,310
Ooh, nice.

500
00:26:56,353 --> 00:26:59,792
Pepe was just really turning into a thing and, um...

501
00:26:59,835 --> 00:27:01,489
my buddy Skinner was, like,

502
00:27:01,532 --> 00:27:03,883
"Hey you should do
a clothing line."

503
00:27:12,543 --> 00:27:15,634
Yeah, it was just kinda funny
to make something official

504
00:27:15,677 --> 00:27:18,549
out of something that's so,
kind of, like...

505
00:27:18,593 --> 00:27:20,073
bootlegged on the Internet.

506
00:27:22,858 --> 00:27:24,425
I drew all these...

507
00:27:24,468 --> 00:27:27,428
goofy-ass Pepes
that were kinda based on...

508
00:27:27,471 --> 00:27:30,823
just whatever random nonsense
was out there on the Internet.

509
00:27:30,866 --> 00:27:33,303
I like this one
with the little cigarette.

510
00:27:33,347 --> 00:27:35,784
This one's
particularly weird.

511
00:27:35,828 --> 00:27:38,395
And this one is just...

512
00:27:38,439 --> 00:27:41,355
I like that. That's a
very stripped down Pepe.

513
00:27:41,398 --> 00:27:44,358
The sad frog golf shirt.

514
00:27:44,401 --> 00:27:46,665
You can have
a pasta meal with your family

515
00:27:46,708 --> 00:27:47,709
wearing this one.

516
00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:53,106
Pepe was, like, a famous meme.

517
00:27:53,149 --> 00:27:56,022
And my friend, Jay,
he got a tattoo gun.

518
00:27:56,065 --> 00:27:58,328
He just had it set up
in his kitchen.

519
00:27:58,372 --> 00:28:00,200
And so one night,

520
00:28:00,243 --> 00:28:02,028
I think it was just
completely spontaneous.

521
00:28:02,071 --> 00:28:05,422
We're just like,
"Oh, let's get Pepe tattoos."

522
00:28:05,466 --> 00:28:08,643
It's like very little thought
goes into this at all, you know.

523
00:28:11,124 --> 00:28:12,299
We just thought
it was funny

524
00:28:12,342 --> 00:28:13,779
to have a Pepe tattoo

525
00:28:13,822 --> 00:28:15,781
and Matt was there
so it was like a tribute

526
00:28:15,824 --> 00:28:17,260
to my friend.

527
00:28:17,304 --> 00:28:18,522
I didn't know at the time

528
00:28:18,566 --> 00:28:21,482
but I got it, like,
below my sleeve here.

529
00:28:21,525 --> 00:28:24,572
That would kind of, uh,
come back to bite me.

530
00:28:25,791 --> 00:28:28,750
As the Pepe defense was building

531
00:28:28,794 --> 00:28:31,448
to try and steer people away
from using Pepe

532
00:28:31,492 --> 00:28:34,756
for their own, you know,
normie usage...

533
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,587
that spawned a lot of angry,
raging Pepes.

534
00:28:39,630 --> 00:28:41,763
But then,
that fateful day occurred

535
00:28:41,807 --> 00:28:46,246
where there was a YouTube video
of screaming frogs.

536
00:28:46,289 --> 00:28:48,204
Say something
for the camera.

537
00:28:48,248 --> 00:28:50,903
Look at the thing blow up
like a balloon.

538
00:29:00,434 --> 00:29:02,610
They have
a high pitched scream

539
00:29:02,653 --> 00:29:03,916
which sounded a lot like...

540
00:29:10,923 --> 00:29:12,925
And it became
like this battle cry.

541
00:29:18,452 --> 00:29:19,888
There would be somebody who would be coming in

542
00:29:19,932 --> 00:29:22,064
from Instagram.

543
00:29:22,108 --> 00:29:24,850
Sort of out themselves,
maybe a sex-haver

544
00:29:24,893 --> 00:29:26,503
or a woman.

545
00:29:26,547 --> 00:29:30,072
A neurotypical,
socially well-adjusted person.

546
00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:33,075
Once you kinda get that seed
planted in the head of, like,

547
00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:35,861
you know, the popular kids
and look...

548
00:29:35,904 --> 00:29:37,123
look how they're living,

549
00:29:37,166 --> 00:29:38,777
then look at you, you know.
You're this...

550
00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:40,735
You're this... slug.

551
00:29:40,779 --> 00:29:42,215
All you normies
have been bullying us

552
00:29:42,258 --> 00:29:43,738
our whole lives.

553
00:29:43,782 --> 00:29:45,827
I'll never be one of you
disgusting normies.

554
00:29:45,871 --> 00:29:48,874
Fuck... normies.

555
00:30:01,712 --> 00:30:04,063
You know, these were a group
of disempowered men

556
00:30:04,106 --> 00:30:06,195
who had retreated
into fantasy worlds.

557
00:30:07,893 --> 00:30:10,678
That was their last place of retreat, in a sense.

558
00:30:10,721 --> 00:30:14,725
And so, having women there
was what they didn't want

559
00:30:14,769 --> 00:30:17,467
because that was a symbol
of their defeat in real life.

560
00:30:26,433 --> 00:30:27,434
Ursula.

561
00:30:28,478 --> 00:30:29,828
Hey.

562
00:30:29,871 --> 00:30:32,265
-Is that Twilight Sparkle?
-Mm-hmm!

563
00:30:32,308 --> 00:30:34,136
-Is that her name?
-Yeah!

564
00:30:34,180 --> 00:30:37,226
She's like,
"Ursula, I'm going to help you."

565
00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:39,620
Aw!

566
00:30:39,663 --> 00:30:41,404
-Okay.
-That's so cute.

567
00:30:41,448 --> 00:30:44,233
That one says,
"A pocket mouse sleeps...

568
00:30:44,277 --> 00:30:46,279
-safely it in its nest."
-That's so cute.

569
00:30:46,322 --> 00:30:47,976
-It's a little mouse.
-Oh.

570
00:30:50,761 --> 00:30:52,502
People would just email me

571
00:30:52,546 --> 00:30:55,027
fucked up pictures of Pepe

572
00:30:55,070 --> 00:30:57,464
and it didn't really shock me.

573
00:30:57,507 --> 00:31:00,728
I'd be more shocked by,
you know, people actually...

574
00:31:00,771 --> 00:31:03,905
expressing some form
of cuteness or love

575
00:31:03,949 --> 00:31:07,039
like this other stuff is just...
It's just garbage.

576
00:31:08,823 --> 00:31:10,303
I think the weird thing

577
00:31:10,346 --> 00:31:12,131
about American culture
in general is, like,

578
00:31:12,174 --> 00:31:14,220
we do kinda celebrate garbage

579
00:31:14,263 --> 00:31:17,092
and we also produce a hell
of a lot of physical garbage.

580
00:31:17,136 --> 00:31:18,267
So it's just like...

581
00:31:19,529 --> 00:31:20,879
fucking garbage world.

582
00:31:32,194 --> 00:31:33,500
I was definitely conscious

583
00:31:33,543 --> 00:31:35,154
of not wanting to be remembered

584
00:31:35,197 --> 00:31:37,721
as the artist that did
Boy's Club.

585
00:31:37,765 --> 00:31:41,160
So I just wanted
to keep doing other stuff.

586
00:31:41,203 --> 00:31:43,640
There's no connection
between this frog and Pepe

587
00:31:43,684 --> 00:31:46,295
other than they kinda look
like one another.

588
00:31:46,339 --> 00:31:50,473
But this is just another frog
in a different place.

589
00:31:52,606 --> 00:31:54,347
I decided to do
a whole kids book

590
00:31:54,390 --> 00:31:57,132
that was totally wordless.

591
00:31:57,176 --> 00:32:01,049
It follows the life of this frog
and his pet rat...

592
00:32:01,093 --> 00:32:02,921
living in
a little mushroom house.

593
00:32:02,964 --> 00:32:05,097
They travel on the back
of a bike.

594
00:32:07,577 --> 00:32:10,015
They wake up at nighttime and go exploring.

595
00:32:10,841 --> 00:32:12,626
Okay, look at me.

596
00:32:12,669 --> 00:32:14,106
Through the forest

597
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:17,022
then they end up
surfing on some dolphins,

598
00:32:17,065 --> 00:32:18,806
and swimming
and going underground.

599
00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:21,200
I just really went

600
00:32:21,243 --> 00:32:23,680
for the childlike wonder
with this one.

601
00:32:34,126 --> 00:32:35,475
The Night Riders.

602
00:32:35,518 --> 00:32:37,477
It's a work of highly skilled craftsmanship.

603
00:32:39,087 --> 00:32:40,654
It took him almost a year
to make it.

604
00:32:42,438 --> 00:32:44,875
I told him, you know,
I saw that he had that in him.

605
00:32:44,919 --> 00:32:46,399
He had a
Where the Wild Things Are

606
00:32:46,442 --> 00:32:48,575
in him, I just knew it.

607
00:32:48,618 --> 00:32:50,055
We were working on
The Night Riders

608
00:32:50,098 --> 00:32:53,797
before all this insane
Pepe stuff started to happen.

609
00:32:53,841 --> 00:32:55,669
Pepe's really just
the tip of the iceberg

610
00:32:55,712 --> 00:33:00,152
for the kind of art
that Matt's capable of making.

611
00:33:00,195 --> 00:33:02,458
How come the dragon
doesn't have wings?

612
00:33:02,502 --> 00:33:03,982
It's more of
a land dragon,

613
00:33:04,025 --> 00:33:06,071
than a dragon of the air
or a dragon of the sea.

614
00:33:06,114 --> 00:33:08,290
So he's... He's a land dragon.

615
00:33:10,162 --> 00:33:12,077
The characters
are of different species,

616
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,036
but they seem like friends
from the neighborhood.

617
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,777
We can tell they love each other

618
00:33:16,820 --> 00:33:19,562
and the book is built toward

619
00:33:19,606 --> 00:33:23,436
a bunch of nocturnal animals
experiencing a sunrise.

620
00:33:28,702 --> 00:33:29,964
The end.

621
00:33:36,101 --> 00:33:38,581
Pepe had escaped
and he was roaming around.

622
00:33:40,105 --> 00:33:41,671
And, like,
it was fun for a while.

623
00:33:42,803 --> 00:33:44,500
Um, until, uh...

624
00:33:45,719 --> 00:33:47,286
...it wasn't anymore.

625
00:33:48,548 --> 00:33:49,592
And on 4chan...

626
00:33:50,506 --> 00:33:51,942
whenever they thought

627
00:33:51,986 --> 00:33:54,380
quote-unquote normies,
sort of outsiders or other sites

628
00:33:54,423 --> 00:33:55,903
were stealing their memes,

629
00:33:55,946 --> 00:33:58,906
they would try to make them
as offensive as possible.

630
00:33:58,949 --> 00:34:01,300
It's like a classic
punk response.

631
00:34:01,343 --> 00:34:03,302
Literally armored
like a punk, right?

632
00:34:03,345 --> 00:34:04,564
And they're like,
"It's so offensive, I...

633
00:34:04,607 --> 00:34:05,913
It can't be co-opted."

634
00:34:08,524 --> 00:34:11,440
So they put him next to the Trade Towers disintegrating.

635
00:34:11,484 --> 00:34:15,140
They put swastikas all over him and Nazified Pepe.

636
00:34:15,183 --> 00:34:17,098
And it sort of snowballs.

637
00:34:17,142 --> 00:34:20,101
Back then, it was just the most offensive thing you could do.

638
00:34:20,145 --> 00:34:22,147
But it now reads
as a weird prologue

639
00:34:22,190 --> 00:34:24,584
to when the irony
kind of melted away.

640
00:34:27,978 --> 00:34:29,980
There are people
on these platforms who believe

641
00:34:30,024 --> 00:34:33,549
that because you've couched
your intention in a joke,

642
00:34:33,593 --> 00:34:35,464
that you can disavow it
when people come asking.

643
00:34:35,508 --> 00:34:37,510
That's right.
That's exactly right.

644
00:34:37,553 --> 00:34:39,947
So you create this ambiguity
so there's no way for you

645
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:41,296
to mean
what you really mean ever.

646
00:34:41,340 --> 00:34:43,255
Yeah.

647
00:34:43,298 --> 00:34:45,474
I think what's appealing
about Pepe

648
00:34:45,518 --> 00:34:48,303
is that he combines
this impossible mixture

649
00:34:48,347 --> 00:34:50,218
of innocence and evil.

650
00:34:50,262 --> 00:34:53,091
Like he has this kind
of knowing smile

651
00:34:53,134 --> 00:34:56,746
while he's performing acts
that are really atrocious.

652
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:58,922
It sort of fulfills the idea

653
00:34:58,966 --> 00:35:01,708
that we can say
these terrible things

654
00:35:01,751 --> 00:35:04,624
and just mean them as jokes
all the time.

655
00:35:04,667 --> 00:35:06,321
They're always just jokes
all the time

656
00:35:06,365 --> 00:35:08,932
and you can't prove otherwise.

657
00:35:08,976 --> 00:35:10,630
We're just a bunch
of kids in our underwear.

658
00:35:10,673 --> 00:35:13,459
It's harmless.
No one really means it.

659
00:35:13,502 --> 00:35:16,288
The problem, I think, is that
it's really demonstrable

660
00:35:16,331 --> 00:35:20,596
in the worst cases
that this isn't funny.

661
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,424
You know, it's not funny
when people die.

662
00:35:23,556 --> 00:35:25,253
CPR in progress.

663
00:35:25,297 --> 00:35:27,647
Okay, we got
another gunshot victim at...

664
00:35:27,690 --> 00:35:29,649
Shots fired! Shots fired!

665
00:35:29,692 --> 00:35:32,130
A black car pulls up and stops

666
00:35:32,173 --> 00:35:33,261
and he rolls down the window...

667
00:35:33,305 --> 00:35:34,741
I just saw four gunshots.

668
00:35:34,784 --> 00:35:36,264
A Friday night rampage

669
00:35:36,308 --> 00:35:38,440
in this bustling college town

670
00:35:38,484 --> 00:35:41,226
after two gun battles
with police and a chase,

671
00:35:41,269 --> 00:35:42,575
seven people were dead.

672
00:35:42,618 --> 00:35:44,054
Twenty-two year old
Elliott Rodger

673
00:35:44,098 --> 00:35:45,665
believed to be the gunman.

674
00:35:45,708 --> 00:35:47,580
Tonight investigators are
pouring over videos

675
00:35:47,623 --> 00:35:49,234
Rodger posted online.

676
00:35:49,277 --> 00:35:51,061
There was sort of this intense

677
00:35:51,105 --> 00:35:53,194
pain that you could see
where he was

678
00:35:53,238 --> 00:35:54,848
really divorced from reality.

679
00:35:54,891 --> 00:35:57,155
Like he did
the shooting spree in a car,

680
00:35:57,198 --> 00:35:59,026
a fancy car his parents
had bought for him

681
00:35:59,069 --> 00:36:01,202
to boost his confidence.

682
00:36:01,246 --> 00:36:02,725
He didn't even
make an effort.

683
00:36:02,769 --> 00:36:05,554
Didn't talk to anybody.
And he was so closed off

684
00:36:05,598 --> 00:36:07,426
and it was like when he was
sitting there,

685
00:36:07,469 --> 00:36:09,819
you can just tell he's just
thinking these thoughts

686
00:36:09,863 --> 00:36:12,387
in his head the entire time.
He's just talking to himself.

687
00:36:14,128 --> 00:36:16,957
I came on
to 4chan that day.

688
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,568
People in this environment
were starting to get whipped up

689
00:36:19,612 --> 00:36:20,961
and they're like,
"Yeah, that's right.

690
00:36:21,004 --> 00:36:22,049
You showed him who's boss."

691
00:36:22,092 --> 00:36:23,529
You know, he, he went out there.

692
00:36:23,572 --> 00:36:27,097
He stood up for being,
you know, the virgin with rage.

693
00:36:27,141 --> 00:36:30,231
The very first picture
of Elliott Rodger that I saved

694
00:36:30,275 --> 00:36:32,277
was a picture of this sort of

695
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,236
semi-transparent sobbing woman,

696
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,500
and then like three
or four Pepes with guns.

697
00:36:38,544 --> 00:36:39,849
It was like one
of the very first ones

698
00:36:39,893 --> 00:36:42,112
that like took Elliott
and put it into like a,

699
00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:43,766
sort of like a context.

700
00:36:43,810 --> 00:36:45,507
People started
drawing Pepes

701
00:36:45,551 --> 00:36:48,771
riding around in BMWs
with Elliot Rodger.

702
00:36:48,815 --> 00:36:50,730
Yeah, I kind of get a little bit energized by it, you know.

703
00:36:50,773 --> 00:36:52,166
And it was kind of this, like,

704
00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:53,776
maybe society does need
to get flipped on its head.

705
00:37:04,613 --> 00:37:07,181
Hi, Elliot Rodger.

706
00:37:08,661 --> 00:37:10,140
I don't
condone violence, you know.

707
00:37:10,184 --> 00:37:11,751
I'm not a violence condoner.

708
00:37:11,794 --> 00:37:14,057
But, he set me off into the path

709
00:37:14,101 --> 00:37:16,103
that made me who I am today,

710
00:37:16,146 --> 00:37:17,713
and I have to acknowledge that.

711
00:37:24,067 --> 00:37:28,158
On 4chan, you see something
totally new called the...

712
00:37:28,202 --> 00:37:30,770
uh, Beta Male Uprising,

713
00:37:30,813 --> 00:37:32,772
the Beta Uprising.

714
00:37:32,815 --> 00:37:34,295
- -The idea would be that,

715
00:37:34,339 --> 00:37:36,166
all of them would

716
00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:37,864
run out of their mom's basements

717
00:37:37,907 --> 00:37:40,214
and start shooting people.

718
00:37:42,956 --> 00:37:45,654
And of course, like, it's a way
of making fun of themselves.

719
00:37:45,698 --> 00:37:47,482
It's always coded
in guarded irony.

720
00:37:47,526 --> 00:37:49,789
But of course, behind the irony
is the seriousness.

721
00:37:49,832 --> 00:37:51,225
Why are you talking about that?

722
00:37:51,269 --> 00:37:52,835
It's because that's an issue
that resonates with you.

723
00:37:54,315 --> 00:37:55,882
Uprise.

724
00:37:55,925 --> 00:37:58,145
Welcome to your demise.

725
00:37:58,188 --> 00:37:59,842
Pepe
then becomes the symbol.

726
00:37:59,886 --> 00:38:01,888
You see him holding the gun.

727
00:38:01,931 --> 00:38:03,890
It's the classic response
from 4chan,

728
00:38:03,933 --> 00:38:05,370
which is like
the most nihilistic

729
00:38:05,413 --> 00:38:06,980
and despairing, cynical right

730
00:38:07,023 --> 00:38:08,808
where anyone wants
to kill themselves

731
00:38:08,851 --> 00:38:11,506
or do something awful,
or do something anti-social,

732
00:38:11,550 --> 00:38:14,640
making that screen illusion
real in some way.

733
00:38:14,683 --> 00:38:16,859
Um, they're like,
"Yeah. Go for it."

734
00:38:16,903 --> 00:38:18,600
Philadelphia area colleges

735
00:38:18,644 --> 00:38:21,516
have all warned students
to be extra cautious tomorrow

736
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,214
This is the threat that was
posted on 4chan,

737
00:38:24,258 --> 00:38:27,087
a message board
where everyone is anonymous.

738
00:38:27,130 --> 00:38:28,828
It was posted last Friday,

739
00:38:28,871 --> 00:38:31,047
the day after
the shooting in Oregon.

740
00:38:31,091 --> 00:38:32,527
It phrases the gunman

741
00:38:32,571 --> 00:38:35,225
as a fellow member of
the Beta Rebellion.

742
00:38:35,269 --> 00:38:36,792
The post on 4chan

743
00:38:36,836 --> 00:38:38,881
uses a profile picture
of what appears to be

744
00:38:38,925 --> 00:38:41,449
the Grinch in a mask,
holding a gun.

745
00:38:41,493 --> 00:38:43,451
That same picture
was used in a post

746
00:38:43,495 --> 00:38:45,540
the day before
the Oregon massacre.

747
00:38:47,020 --> 00:38:48,282
You see, it's not just

748
00:38:48,326 --> 00:38:50,632
the memes generate the violence.

749
00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:53,766
It's that the violence
becomes a meme.

750
00:38:53,809 --> 00:38:55,942
But, it's just a joke.

751
00:38:55,985 --> 00:38:58,074
Right? It's just a stupid frog.

752
00:39:00,816 --> 00:39:03,341
If you had had
a victory over the normies,

753
00:39:03,384 --> 00:39:05,952
you know, striking back
at the oppressors,

754
00:39:05,995 --> 00:39:09,651
it was seen as too enthusiastic
to post like a big, you know...

755
00:39:09,695 --> 00:39:11,349
grinning, laughing,
you know, ha-ha-ha.

756
00:39:13,525 --> 00:39:17,398
So when this smug Pepe came out,
it was groundbreaking.

757
00:39:17,442 --> 00:39:20,096
Like in a way that is
maybe hard to explain.

758
00:39:21,576 --> 00:39:24,100
It was the most succinct,

759
00:39:24,144 --> 00:39:26,015
perfect face.

760
00:39:26,059 --> 00:39:28,757
Then the, uh, you know,
the, the hand up.

761
00:39:28,801 --> 00:39:30,542
It had the perfect

762
00:39:30,585 --> 00:39:32,500
silly look to it.

763
00:39:32,544 --> 00:39:34,633
You know, crude...

764
00:39:34,676 --> 00:39:36,286
like holding back laughter,

765
00:39:36,330 --> 00:39:39,377
but enjoying the suffering
of others.

766
00:39:39,420 --> 00:39:41,988
It was like the perfect
trolling accessory.

767
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:44,730
The way he's redrawn

768
00:39:44,773 --> 00:39:47,428
with his like thumb up like
this, like really smug...

769
00:39:47,472 --> 00:39:49,474
- Yeah.
-It's like...

770
00:39:49,517 --> 00:39:51,476
that tone is so ugly.

771
00:39:53,129 --> 00:39:54,827
It's used to imply like...

772
00:39:56,132 --> 00:39:57,395
being above

773
00:39:57,438 --> 00:39:59,266
a conversation that people
are trying to have

774
00:39:59,309 --> 00:40:01,007
about kindness.

775
00:40:07,317 --> 00:40:10,799
Trump was sort of seen
as like the personification

776
00:40:10,843 --> 00:40:13,976
of the smug Pepe meme.

777
00:40:14,020 --> 00:40:16,457
When he was announcing
that he was going to run,

778
00:40:16,501 --> 00:40:19,460
every news story is, you know,
they don't like him.

779
00:40:19,504 --> 00:40:21,331
People in his own party,
they don't like him.

780
00:40:21,375 --> 00:40:23,595
And people in the other party,
they really don't like him.

781
00:40:23,638 --> 00:40:25,292
And it was like,
"Oh, this is perfect."

782
00:40:25,335 --> 00:40:26,728
He's making everybody upset.

783
00:40:28,164 --> 00:40:31,646
A really interesting time
in 4chan

784
00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:34,606
is Trump's initial announcement

785
00:40:34,649 --> 00:40:36,651
that he is
running for president.

786
00:40:36,695 --> 00:40:38,784
If you look at
the 4chan threads,

787
00:40:38,827 --> 00:40:40,612
before Trump's speech,

788
00:40:40,655 --> 00:40:43,179
it was fairly skeptical.

789
00:40:43,223 --> 00:40:45,225
But then they saw

790
00:40:45,268 --> 00:40:48,141
a lot of these things in his rhetoric that they like.

791
00:40:48,184 --> 00:40:49,490
They saw nationalism.

792
00:40:49,534 --> 00:40:51,797
They saw white nationalism.

793
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,626
And almost immediately
you'll see people being like,

794
00:40:54,669 --> 00:40:57,977
can we get a Pepe
with Donald Trump hair.

795
00:40:58,020 --> 00:40:59,587
I want to start
circulating this.

796
00:40:59,631 --> 00:41:01,763
And that happened,
that's within hours.

797
00:41:18,563 --> 00:41:21,522
I think that
President Trump is...

798
00:41:21,566 --> 00:41:24,220
a real life version of Pepe,

799
00:41:24,264 --> 00:41:27,006
in the ability to illicit

800
00:41:27,049 --> 00:41:29,487
a reaction and to get attention

801
00:41:29,530 --> 00:41:32,446
and to express and to capture
peoples' hopes and fears.

802
00:41:33,969 --> 00:41:36,276
I was formerly the
Director of Strategy and Data

803
00:41:36,319 --> 00:41:37,886
for the Trump campaign,

804
00:41:37,930 --> 00:41:42,195
so I know as much, if not more
about how to use voter data

805
00:41:42,238 --> 00:41:43,762
than anybody else
in the country.

806
00:41:45,807 --> 00:41:47,200
During the campaign,

807
00:41:47,243 --> 00:41:50,420
there was an effort by 4chan

808
00:41:50,464 --> 00:41:52,814
to get other people
to support the president

809
00:41:52,858 --> 00:41:54,860
by creating memes.

810
00:41:54,903 --> 00:41:56,165
And then sharing them

811
00:41:56,209 --> 00:41:57,993
to say, normies,

812
00:41:58,037 --> 00:42:01,388
to try to motivate them
to support President Trump.

813
00:42:02,563 --> 00:42:04,391
The inside terminology

814
00:42:04,434 --> 00:42:06,349
for this was
"The Great Meme War."

815
00:42:09,048 --> 00:42:11,224
It gave people who had never
really been involved

816
00:42:11,267 --> 00:42:12,573
in politics before

817
00:42:12,617 --> 00:42:13,618
a way in.

818
00:42:15,924 --> 00:42:17,186
The best memes that you see,

819
00:42:17,230 --> 00:42:18,710
the most effective ones,

820
00:42:18,753 --> 00:42:21,539
are just some person
who has no power at all.

821
00:42:21,582 --> 00:42:22,801
They have no influence,
they have no money,

822
00:42:22,844 --> 00:42:24,150
they have no connections.

823
00:42:24,193 --> 00:42:25,847
But if they can make
one good meme,

824
00:42:25,891 --> 00:42:27,545
they can take off and go viral.

825
00:42:29,111 --> 00:42:30,243
Then when you hypercharge it

826
00:42:30,286 --> 00:42:31,853
by having
the president retweet it,

827
00:42:31,897 --> 00:42:34,247
you felt like you were part
of this rebel group,

828
00:42:34,290 --> 00:42:35,988
this insurgency

829
00:42:36,031 --> 00:42:39,426
that was completely
unpredictable and from

830
00:42:39,469 --> 00:42:41,689
where no one would have
ever expected it.

831
00:42:41,733 --> 00:42:44,039
How does an image like this

832
00:42:44,083 --> 00:42:47,652
end up on Donald Trump's
Twitter account?

833
00:42:47,695 --> 00:42:50,480
4chan supported Trump
for a mix of reasons.

834
00:42:50,524 --> 00:42:52,657
Some of it I think
was this nihilistic idea

835
00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:54,180
that Trump was a wrecking ball.

836
00:42:54,223 --> 00:42:56,443
And that they wanted
to embarrass people

837
00:42:56,486 --> 00:42:57,923
by electing him.

838
00:42:57,966 --> 00:42:59,620
And so when Trump
retweeted himself

839
00:42:59,664 --> 00:43:01,404
depicted as Pepe,

840
00:43:01,448 --> 00:43:03,711
it was like
this watershed moment.

841
00:43:06,409 --> 00:43:08,716
This is Donald Trump co-opting the idea

842
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,590
of himself, uh, sort of substituted as Pepe.

843
00:43:12,633 --> 00:43:14,461
It was so transgressive,

844
00:43:14,504 --> 00:43:16,463
so anti-PC.

845
00:43:16,506 --> 00:43:19,858
To most of the voters out there, it just seemed kind of odd.

846
00:43:19,901 --> 00:43:21,816
But, if you were
part of the community

847
00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:24,036
that has been spending years
and years, and years

848
00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:25,124
using Pepe,

849
00:43:25,167 --> 00:43:27,474
suddenly,
a little antenna goes up

850
00:43:27,517 --> 00:43:29,215
and you pick up a signal
and say, "Wow.

851
00:43:30,782 --> 00:43:32,392
Maybe this guy's right for us."

852
00:43:47,276 --> 00:43:49,061
There's always
magic going on

853
00:43:49,104 --> 00:43:50,715
in any political campaign.

854
00:43:50,758 --> 00:43:52,151
And so...

855
00:43:52,194 --> 00:43:55,894
what happened when Pepe the Frog
suddenly became, um,

856
00:43:55,937 --> 00:43:58,418
in effect Donald Trump's
invisible running mate...

857
00:43:59,811 --> 00:44:02,552
was that a magical force
had entered the picture

858
00:44:02,596 --> 00:44:03,858
and it was a wild card.

859
00:44:06,121 --> 00:44:08,558
A meme can become the anchor

860
00:44:08,602 --> 00:44:10,038
or the seed, if you will,

861
00:44:10,082 --> 00:44:13,041
around which a group of
like-minded people can gather

862
00:44:13,085 --> 00:44:14,652
and toward which
they can focus their energy.

863
00:44:14,695 --> 00:44:17,045
That's a basic tool
of meme magic.

864
00:44:17,089 --> 00:44:19,700
And that's one of the things
we saw during the 2016 Election.

865
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,707
The way that magic
was used on the Chans was

866
00:44:26,751 --> 00:44:31,103
they focused on building up
a series of hypersigils,

867
00:44:31,146 --> 00:44:34,236
-of images like Pepe the Frog.

868
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,718
And piled into
those images,

869
00:44:37,762 --> 00:44:39,546
all of their hopes and
all of their energy,

870
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:41,548
their emotional focus

871
00:44:41,591 --> 00:44:44,246
of seeing Donald Trump
in the White House.

872
00:44:44,290 --> 00:44:46,814
You ended up with a lot of people on the Chans just going,

873
00:44:46,858 --> 00:44:48,773
"Wow, I could do this."

874
00:45:05,790 --> 00:45:08,836
It's not Republicanism
as we have known it.

875
00:45:12,231 --> 00:45:15,451
These are racist ideas,
race baiting ideas.

876
00:45:15,495 --> 00:45:19,020
Anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant,

877
00:45:19,064 --> 00:45:22,589
anti-women. All key tenants
making up the emerging

878
00:45:22,632 --> 00:45:23,851
racist ideology

879
00:45:23,895 --> 00:45:26,288
known as the alt-right.

880
00:45:26,332 --> 00:45:27,637
Pepe!

881
00:45:27,681 --> 00:45:30,989
Now, alt-right is short for
alternative-right.

882
00:45:31,032 --> 00:45:33,252
The Wall Street Journal
describes it

883
00:45:33,295 --> 00:45:35,950
as a loose and racist ideology

884
00:45:35,994 --> 00:45:38,170
known as the alt-right.

885
00:45:38,213 --> 00:45:39,475
Pepe!

886
00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:40,738
Pepe!

887
00:45:42,174 --> 00:45:43,566
And, and to most people,

888
00:45:43,610 --> 00:45:46,787
that was a totally inexplicable
thing at the moment.

889
00:45:46,831 --> 00:45:48,006
It must be totally random.

890
00:45:48,049 --> 00:45:50,138
To the white supremacist
anti-Semitic

891
00:45:50,182 --> 00:45:51,836
neo-Nazi right in this country,

892
00:45:51,879 --> 00:45:54,012
that was a moment of triumph.

893
00:45:59,887 --> 00:46:02,672
Suddenly, Pepe the meme,
the most...

894
00:46:02,716 --> 00:46:05,675
silliest piece of
meaningless culture,

895
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,896
was sort of like
passing through the screen.

896
00:46:08,940 --> 00:46:11,029
It was kinda like
the dream of the troll,

897
00:46:11,072 --> 00:46:12,421
making the Internet real.

898
00:46:22,692 --> 00:46:24,912
It was becoming like,

899
00:46:24,956 --> 00:46:27,567
you know, weird to, like,
have this tattoo.

900
00:46:32,224 --> 00:46:34,400
You're here
to get me involved in your...

901
00:46:34,443 --> 00:46:36,489
nightmare world?

902
00:46:36,532 --> 00:46:38,230
-What's good?

903
00:46:38,273 --> 00:46:39,797
-We're here to exploit you.

904
00:46:42,756 --> 00:46:45,106
Is this... this better be
about Landwolf.

905
00:46:46,151 --> 00:46:47,674
Duck your head.

906
00:46:47,717 --> 00:46:49,241
Please don't kick my cat.

907
00:46:50,503 --> 00:46:52,200
If, if you can help it.

908
00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:56,422
That... I think it's funny
that, like...

909
00:46:56,465 --> 00:46:59,468
that Chris got the Pepe tattooed
on his arm and he was like,

910
00:46:59,512 --> 00:47:01,035
-"I have to hide it now."

911
00:47:01,079 --> 00:47:03,733
"Somebody at Subway thought
I was a white power dude."

912
00:47:03,777 --> 00:47:05,387
-Yeah. Everybody...

913
00:47:05,431 --> 00:47:06,867
everybody's actually very...

914
00:47:06,911 --> 00:47:08,651
everybody's
very excited about Pepe.

915
00:47:08,695 --> 00:47:10,262
They're like, "Oh wow,
Pepe's this awesome meme, dude."

916
00:47:10,305 --> 00:47:11,350
He rules.

917
00:47:11,393 --> 00:47:12,917
-Yeah.
-"Wow, you made Pepe?"

918
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,310
I was like all proud of myself,
strutting down the street,

919
00:47:15,354 --> 00:47:17,182
-you know.

920
00:47:17,225 --> 00:47:19,488
Now people
just throw rocks at you.

921
00:47:19,532 --> 00:47:21,360
"That's the guy
who created Pepe!"

922
00:47:21,403 --> 00:47:22,883
-Yeah. -You're not strutting

923
00:47:22,927 --> 00:47:24,450
-anymore, are ya? Sicko!
- No, I'm not.

924
00:47:24,493 --> 00:47:25,886
Now I'm, now I'm like

925
00:47:25,930 --> 00:47:28,193
just slithering down the street

926
00:47:28,236 --> 00:47:31,326
in a pool of my own waste
or something.

927
00:47:31,370 --> 00:47:32,937
- Whoa, like a...
- Yeah.

928
00:47:32,980 --> 00:47:34,503
-Like a slug lord.
-Like a...

929
00:47:34,547 --> 00:47:37,376
Just a... a slurping slimeball.

930
00:47:37,419 --> 00:47:39,334
But
I really do feel like

931
00:47:39,378 --> 00:47:41,815
this would only happen to you.

932
00:47:50,302 --> 00:47:53,479
I interviewed Matt Furie in September 2016

933
00:47:53,522 --> 00:47:55,176
with The Atlantic.

934
00:47:55,220 --> 00:47:58,397
My impression of Furie was that
he was very well intentioned,

935
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,313
but somewhat naive about
the extent to which

936
00:48:01,356 --> 00:48:04,925
this symbol had been
appropriated by the far right.

937
00:48:04,969 --> 00:48:07,536
Pepe is a white nationalist symbol...

938
00:48:07,580 --> 00:48:08,886
...increasingly being used

939
00:48:08,929 --> 00:48:10,191
by white supremacists...

940
00:48:10,235 --> 00:48:12,846
It's something of a mascot
by the alt-right.

941
00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:15,588
Defining the alt-right
is somewhat easier these days.

942
00:48:15,631 --> 00:48:17,285
But around 2016,

943
00:48:17,329 --> 00:48:18,547
it encompassed a lot of people

944
00:48:18,591 --> 00:48:20,680
who were ideologically
opposed to the left

945
00:48:20,723 --> 00:48:23,117
but not necessarily united
on every issue.

946
00:48:23,161 --> 00:48:24,902
And then you've got people
like Richard Spencer

947
00:48:24,945 --> 00:48:26,555
who are overt
white nationalists.

948
00:48:31,691 --> 00:48:34,041
But the alt-right Pepe
allows them

949
00:48:34,085 --> 00:48:35,260
to pretend that they're kidding.

950
00:48:35,303 --> 00:48:36,478
They're not kidding.

951
00:48:36,522 --> 00:48:38,567
What they want is for you to be

952
00:48:38,611 --> 00:48:40,134
both scared by the threat

953
00:48:40,178 --> 00:48:43,572
and be mocked for being scared
in the first place.

954
00:48:43,616 --> 00:48:45,966
The point is to cause that
kind of psychic anguish

955
00:48:46,010 --> 00:48:48,534
and then they draw a great deal
of pleasure from that.

956
00:48:48,577 --> 00:48:50,797
Basically alt-right
is a big tent

957
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,277
or rather a big rock

958
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,932
under which creeps
a diverse assortment of

959
00:48:54,975 --> 00:48:57,673
paleo conservatives,
men's rights misogynists...

960
00:48:57,717 --> 00:49:01,416
I remember I went to
a taping of Sam Bee.

961
00:49:01,460 --> 00:49:05,333
And she had a segment about
Pepe the Frog.

962
00:49:05,377 --> 00:49:07,727
And I got to meet her
after the taping.

963
00:49:07,770 --> 00:49:09,381
And good
old-fashioned neo-Nazis.

964
00:49:09,424 --> 00:49:10,730
And I was like, "You know,

965
00:49:10,773 --> 00:49:12,950
Pepe was actually created by
a friend of mine

966
00:49:12,993 --> 00:49:14,473
and he's a really sweet artist

967
00:49:14,516 --> 00:49:16,779
and, and it doesn't mean
this thing that it,

968
00:49:16,823 --> 00:49:18,172
it transformed into,

969
00:49:18,216 --> 00:49:20,783
and she was just,
sort of like, "Okay."

970
00:49:20,827 --> 00:49:23,438
The alt-right's use of Pepe
just drowned out

971
00:49:23,482 --> 00:49:25,571
any other visual interpretation,

972
00:49:25,614 --> 00:49:29,053
you know, Trump's former campaign chair Steve Bannon said

973
00:49:29,096 --> 00:49:31,403
the Democrats
are not the opposition party,

974
00:49:31,446 --> 00:49:33,013
the media
is the opposition party

975
00:49:33,057 --> 00:49:34,319
and how do you beat the media?

976
00:49:34,362 --> 00:49:35,755
You flood the zone with shit.

977
00:49:35,798 --> 00:49:37,626
Well, these people
are flooding the zone with shit

978
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:40,151
so that you don't know
what's real or what's not.

979
00:49:42,153 --> 00:49:44,198
I mean quite frankly
I've been to the events.

980
00:49:44,242 --> 00:49:45,634
It wasn't even real.

981
00:49:45,678 --> 00:49:47,288
Literally,
they're just Jewish actors.

982
00:49:47,332 --> 00:49:49,160
A lot of the KKK guys
with their hats off

983
00:49:49,203 --> 00:49:52,206
literally looks like
the cast of Seinfeld...

984
00:49:52,250 --> 00:49:54,774
A conspiracy theorist
like Alex Jones

985
00:49:54,817 --> 00:49:56,167
appeals to Trump because

986
00:49:56,210 --> 00:49:58,212
one of Trump's
major political tools

987
00:49:58,256 --> 00:50:01,781
is forcing people to reject
objective reality

988
00:50:01,824 --> 00:50:03,870
in favor of
his version of reality.

989
00:50:03,913 --> 00:50:05,132
Well, Donald Trump,
let me say this.

990
00:50:05,176 --> 00:50:07,439
You are the leading presidential
frontrunner

991
00:50:07,482 --> 00:50:09,093
with the Republicans

992
00:50:09,136 --> 00:50:11,269
gaining a huge lead as you don't
back down, but I got to just...

993
00:50:11,312 --> 00:50:13,619
And the point of it is to
obliterate objective truth.

994
00:50:13,662 --> 00:50:15,055
Fake news!

995
00:50:15,099 --> 00:50:17,971
Fuck CNN, fuck CNN!

996
00:50:18,015 --> 00:50:19,451
Trump frames his language

997
00:50:19,494 --> 00:50:21,714
in terms of winners and losers.

998
00:50:21,757 --> 00:50:23,455
I said are you sick
of fucking winning?

999
00:50:23,498 --> 00:50:24,673
No!

1000
00:50:24,717 --> 00:50:26,414
What happens
when that mindset is adopted

1001
00:50:26,458 --> 00:50:28,068
by people on the bottom?

1002
00:50:28,112 --> 00:50:29,461
Instead of thinking of society

1003
00:50:29,504 --> 00:50:30,766
so like where everyone
is sort of equal

1004
00:50:30,810 --> 00:50:32,855
and we're all
lifting ourselves up together,

1005
00:50:32,899 --> 00:50:34,901
you think the world
is a hierarchy

1006
00:50:34,944 --> 00:50:36,946
and the only way you're
going to get to the top

1007
00:50:36,990 --> 00:50:39,079
is by displacing someone else.

1008
00:50:39,123 --> 00:50:40,602
Then you start
getting these ideas like,

1009
00:50:40,646 --> 00:50:42,300
"Well, maybe I'm at the bottom

1010
00:50:42,343 --> 00:50:46,217
because this group of people
has snuck their way to the top."

1011
00:50:46,260 --> 00:50:48,219
They probably cheated their way
up there.

1012
00:50:48,262 --> 00:50:50,047
And so then you get
these elaborate

1013
00:50:50,090 --> 00:50:51,309
conspiracies about like,

1014
00:50:51,352 --> 00:50:54,007
"Oh, well, the, the Jews run
the media.

1015
00:50:54,051 --> 00:50:55,661
Uh, "Immigrants,
they're the problem."

1016
00:50:55,704 --> 00:50:58,316
Build a wall! Build a wall!

1017
00:50:58,359 --> 00:51:02,407
Fuck those dirty beaners.
Build a wall.

1018
00:51:02,450 --> 00:51:05,801
We're not giving in.
We're not going away.

1019
00:51:05,845 --> 00:51:07,107
Have we not given them

1020
00:51:07,151 --> 00:51:09,936
a big giant red, white,
and blue middle finger?

1021
00:51:14,984 --> 00:51:17,030
So, then
it started to get strange.

1022
00:51:18,858 --> 00:51:21,382
Somebody on the Chans,
nobody knows who,

1023
00:51:21,426 --> 00:51:23,515
found an ancient Egyptian
frog god

1024
00:51:23,558 --> 00:51:24,994
whose name was Kek.

1025
00:51:25,038 --> 00:51:27,084
He looked like
an anthropomorphic figure

1026
00:51:27,127 --> 00:51:28,998
with a frog's head
rather like Pepe.

1027
00:51:29,956 --> 00:51:31,958
Obviously that had to be shared

1028
00:51:32,001 --> 00:51:35,135
and... the Chans went ape.

1029
00:51:35,179 --> 00:51:36,832
The reason why
this caught on

1030
00:51:36,876 --> 00:51:39,444
is that Kek is a bit
of gamer slang.

1031
00:51:39,487 --> 00:51:42,882
For complicated reasons,
where we say "ha-ha-ha,"

1032
00:51:42,925 --> 00:51:46,146
in certain gaming circles,
you say "kek-kek-kek."

1033
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:51,717
Trumpsters taking the hill.

1034
00:51:52,413 --> 00:51:53,719
The nation of Kek.

1035
00:51:53,762 --> 00:51:56,548
Kekistan taking the hill.

1036
00:51:56,591 --> 00:51:58,941
They came up
with this idea of Kekistan,

1037
00:51:58,985 --> 00:52:01,553
of a kind of promised land
for Pepes.

1038
00:52:01,596 --> 00:52:04,121
And anytime you have these ideas

1039
00:52:04,164 --> 00:52:05,818
of ethnic homelands

1040
00:52:05,861 --> 00:52:08,386
and tribalist blood and soil,

1041
00:52:08,429 --> 00:52:11,215
it automatically seems to
cluster in

1042
00:52:11,258 --> 00:52:14,609
with the worst exercises
in human depravity.

1043
00:52:16,263 --> 00:52:18,831
All you need to do is just
put on the mask.

1044
00:52:19,484 --> 00:52:20,833
Put on the mask.

1045
00:52:26,055 --> 00:52:28,623
There had been rumors
flying on the Chans

1046
00:52:28,667 --> 00:52:30,625
that Hillary Clinton was
actually seriously ill.

1047
00:52:31,713 --> 00:52:33,672
And a great many chaos magicians

1048
00:52:33,715 --> 00:52:36,196
were focusing their magical work
on one goal

1049
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:38,024
which is making her collapse
in public.

1050
00:52:39,330 --> 00:52:41,201
There's a thing
that people talk about

1051
00:52:41,245 --> 00:52:44,465
in occult circles
called the TSW moment.

1052
00:52:44,509 --> 00:52:47,773
A TSW, the polite version is
This Stuff Works.

1053
00:52:49,818 --> 00:52:52,778
The Chans
went through their TSW moment.

1054
00:52:52,821 --> 00:52:54,432
Hillary Clinton collapsed

1055
00:52:54,475 --> 00:52:56,608
and had to be hauled into
the SUV by other people.

1056
00:53:01,830 --> 00:53:03,267
I honestly think at that point

1057
00:53:03,310 --> 00:53:06,139
if Donald Trump
had asked the habituated Chans

1058
00:53:06,183 --> 00:53:07,619
to walk into the ocean,

1059
00:53:07,662 --> 00:53:08,794
they would have done it.

1060
00:53:11,666 --> 00:53:15,104
You know,
to just be grossly generalistic,

1061
00:53:16,584 --> 00:53:19,239
you could put
half of Trump's supporters

1062
00:53:19,283 --> 00:53:21,720
into what I call
the basket of deplorables.

1063
00:53:25,158 --> 00:53:27,073
-Right?

1064
00:53:28,944 --> 00:53:30,772
The racist, sexist,

1065
00:53:30,816 --> 00:53:33,732
homophobic, xenophobic,

1066
00:53:33,775 --> 00:53:36,082
-Islamophobic...

1067
00:53:36,125 --> 00:53:38,737
Hillary Clinton
then released an explainer

1068
00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:41,740
explaining that Pepe
was a hate symbol

1069
00:53:41,783 --> 00:53:43,524
and that he symbolized
the alt-right

1070
00:53:43,568 --> 00:53:45,657
and through these associations,

1071
00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:49,878
it really made Trump
look like a neo-Nazi.

1072
00:53:49,922 --> 00:53:52,664
But it made her also look
a little clueless, right.

1073
00:53:52,707 --> 00:53:55,754
The idea that she was
denouncing a cartoon frog

1074
00:53:55,797 --> 00:53:57,538
was delightful to 4chan,

1075
00:53:57,582 --> 00:53:59,714
delightful to the alt-right.

1076
00:53:59,758 --> 00:54:01,542
It was the best thing

1077
00:54:01,586 --> 00:54:03,762
that could have happened
for them.

1078
00:54:03,805 --> 00:54:05,764
It certainly galvanized people

1079
00:54:05,807 --> 00:54:08,375
who thought,
"Hey, I really dig Pepe."

1080
00:54:08,419 --> 00:54:10,377
And she just
launched an attack on me

1081
00:54:10,421 --> 00:54:11,639
and called me a Nazi.

1082
00:54:14,207 --> 00:54:17,079
Ladies and gentlemen,
the battle has just begun.

1083
00:54:17,123 --> 00:54:19,343
And we are ready.

1084
00:54:19,386 --> 00:54:23,303
And I think that that just kind of solidified it.

1085
00:54:23,347 --> 00:54:26,393
Now once you start
deeming something

1086
00:54:26,437 --> 00:54:27,525
as a hate symbol,

1087
00:54:27,568 --> 00:54:30,615
It does, kind of, become that.

1088
00:54:30,658 --> 00:54:33,270
A popular cartoon character
turned Internet meme,

1089
00:54:33,313 --> 00:54:35,054
Pepe the frog, has been added to

1090
00:54:35,097 --> 00:54:38,144
the Anti-Defamation League's
database of hate symbols

1091
00:54:38,187 --> 00:54:39,928
In a press release, the organization wrote,

1092
00:54:39,972 --> 00:54:41,321
the character had been, quote,

1093
00:54:41,365 --> 00:54:43,454
"Used by haters on social media

1094
00:54:43,497 --> 00:54:47,066
to suggest racist, anti-Semitic or other bigoted notions

1095
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:48,589
as a hate symbol."

1096
00:54:48,633 --> 00:54:50,896
Matt's name
was in the description

1097
00:54:50,939 --> 00:54:52,593
about it on the website.

1098
00:54:52,637 --> 00:54:55,074
- -It's like a nightmare.

1099
00:54:57,206 --> 00:54:59,339
He's thinking, "I've worked
my whole life

1100
00:54:59,383 --> 00:55:00,688
as an artist

1101
00:55:00,732 --> 00:55:03,256
and now I'm gonna be lumped in

1102
00:55:03,300 --> 00:55:06,825
with this weird new swastika.

1103
00:55:06,868 --> 00:55:08,566
Matt Furie
put out a statement

1104
00:55:08,609 --> 00:55:10,263
to the Associated Press.
He said that he was horrified

1105
00:55:10,307 --> 00:55:11,830
to see his creation
become a mascot

1106
00:55:11,873 --> 00:55:13,614
for the alt-right
fringe movement.

1107
00:55:13,658 --> 00:55:15,399
I don't want to
be associated with this.

1108
00:55:15,442 --> 00:55:17,314
You know, I'm, like, trying
to write children's books.

1109
00:55:19,359 --> 00:55:21,622
The nature of the media
and politics and stuff that

1110
00:55:21,666 --> 00:55:25,234
I've been trying to escape
from my entire life.

1111
00:55:25,278 --> 00:55:26,975
I don't give a shit
about any of that stuff.

1112
00:55:27,019 --> 00:55:29,674
Then I got pulled into it
just because...

1113
00:55:29,717 --> 00:55:32,720
I'm on a hate symbol
database list now

1114
00:55:32,764 --> 00:55:34,243
and it pissed me off.

1115
00:55:43,818 --> 00:55:47,561
As the news was going on
that this Internet frog

1116
00:55:47,605 --> 00:55:49,868
has been marked
as like a hate symbol,

1117
00:55:49,911 --> 00:55:52,349
that's when I got
the phone call from our buyer.

1118
00:55:52,392 --> 00:55:53,741
They pulled it
right away.

1119
00:55:53,785 --> 00:55:56,483
So, we have about 3,000 items

1120
00:55:56,527 --> 00:56:00,226
that were going to go
into 580 stores across the U.S.

1121
00:56:00,269 --> 00:56:03,708
and now it's in my garage. So...

1122
00:56:03,751 --> 00:56:06,232
These were probably,
like, $15 each to make.

1123
00:56:06,275 --> 00:56:08,408
If you think of 15 times 3,000,

1124
00:56:08,452 --> 00:56:10,367
like, it's pretty crazy.

1125
00:56:10,410 --> 00:56:15,328
-Yeah it's 45,000 dollars.
- Yup.

1126
00:56:15,372 --> 00:56:17,417
We didn't want
to give it to Goodwill.

1127
00:56:17,461 --> 00:56:19,158
We didn't want
to sell it ourselves

1128
00:56:19,201 --> 00:56:20,942
because we're afraid...

1129
00:56:20,986 --> 00:56:24,337
white supremacists
would wear it and then...

1130
00:56:24,381 --> 00:56:27,906
What is that worth versus
putting out a hate symbol?

1131
00:56:27,949 --> 00:56:29,908
And I'm sure you feel
the same way.

1132
00:56:31,518 --> 00:56:35,087
A lot of the merchandise
ended up having to be destroyed.

1133
00:56:35,130 --> 00:56:36,654
Yeah, now,
that's kind of the least

1134
00:56:36,697 --> 00:56:37,872
-of my worries.
- I know.

1135
00:56:41,136 --> 00:56:42,573
He was a dummy.

1136
00:56:42,616 --> 00:56:44,836
He just kinda let his character get away from him

1137
00:56:44,879 --> 00:56:47,404
and now, this shit happened.

1138
00:56:47,447 --> 00:56:51,843
Matt is just like most of us,
a poor, cartooning loser.

1139
00:56:51,886 --> 00:56:55,368
I was suggesting that he sue
the Anti-Defamation League

1140
00:56:55,412 --> 00:56:57,414
for defamation.

1141
00:57:03,942 --> 00:57:06,205
I'm just trying
to be positive.

1142
00:57:06,248 --> 00:57:09,382
Not everybody has a platform to talk about this kinda stuff.

1143
00:57:10,992 --> 00:57:13,473
I teamed up with the ADL

1144
00:57:13,517 --> 00:57:16,476
to just try to offer people
some creative solutions.

1145
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,478
-Hi, everybody.

1146
00:57:19,653 --> 00:57:21,046
Um...

1147
00:57:22,395 --> 00:57:24,049
So what we're trying to do now

1148
00:57:24,092 --> 00:57:26,791
is to start
a Save Pepe campaign.

1149
00:57:26,834 --> 00:57:30,185
-And uh...

1150
00:57:32,666 --> 00:57:33,885
I invite everybody

1151
00:57:33,928 --> 00:57:36,844
to draw their own
peaceful version of Pepe

1152
00:57:36,888 --> 00:57:40,587
and share it on social media
with the hashtag "savepepe."

1153
00:57:41,849 --> 00:57:43,590
Can we turn something

1154
00:57:43,634 --> 00:57:45,810
that's become a recognized
hate symbol

1155
00:57:45,853 --> 00:57:48,029
into a recognized love symbol?

1156
00:57:52,294 --> 00:57:54,471
It was really funny,
but it was also really lovely.

1157
00:57:54,514 --> 00:57:56,429
-Like I tweeted about it. I...
-Yeah.

1158
00:57:56,473 --> 00:57:58,823
-I tried to help. I, like...
-Yeah. I drew a Pepe.

1159
00:57:58,866 --> 00:58:02,304
Part of
the Save Pepe campaign.

1160
00:58:02,348 --> 00:58:05,482
I'm like, damn, he's kind of
going through a situation

1161
00:58:05,525 --> 00:58:08,093
that isn't right
and I want to help him out.

1162
00:58:11,139 --> 00:58:12,184
Does that look like Pepe?

1163
00:58:14,969 --> 00:58:16,580
I've never drawn Pepe before,

1164
00:58:16,623 --> 00:58:19,017
but I figured I'm going to do
whatever I can to help

1165
00:58:19,060 --> 00:58:21,846
because I'm such
a big fan of Matt's, and...

1166
00:58:21,889 --> 00:58:24,718
So, I'm butchering
Pepe here, but...

1167
00:58:24,762 --> 00:58:25,850
something like that.

1168
00:58:26,981 --> 00:58:28,592
In Matt's work,

1169
00:58:28,635 --> 00:58:31,986
I can feel his love
for nature and the universe.

1170
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:35,294
I was like, "Oh, yeah,
Matt's my buddy, you know.

1171
00:58:35,337 --> 00:58:37,383
I like Pepe, so, I just
kind of, like, you know...

1172
00:58:37,426 --> 00:58:39,646
I made a Peace Frog Pepe,
you know.

1173
00:58:41,169 --> 00:58:42,780
Does that look like Pepe?

1174
00:58:44,738 --> 00:58:46,305
It's getting less
and less like Pepe.

1175
00:58:50,048 --> 00:58:52,093
I've been working on
it for about a month now

1176
00:58:52,137 --> 00:58:55,009
and I've gotten
about 500 and counting

1177
00:58:55,053 --> 00:58:57,403
brand new peace Pepes.

1178
00:58:57,446 --> 00:59:01,276
My goal with this
is to eventually start something

1179
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,932
that I'd like to call
the Peace Pepe Database of Love.

1180
00:59:07,935 --> 00:59:10,068
My whole thing is
just to focus on positive

1181
00:59:10,111 --> 00:59:11,504
and just keep being creative.

1182
00:59:27,215 --> 00:59:29,174
The attempt
by Matt Furie

1183
00:59:29,217 --> 00:59:31,872
to wrest control over Pepe,

1184
00:59:31,916 --> 00:59:33,613
it seems like he understands
the Internet

1185
00:59:33,657 --> 00:59:35,746
about as well
as Hillary Clinton does.

1186
00:59:35,789 --> 00:59:40,620
Maybe if the original artwork
wasn't so pedestrian and basic

1187
00:59:40,664 --> 00:59:42,666
that an eight year old
can draw Pepe.

1188
00:59:42,709 --> 00:59:45,843
A scribbling
that was improved upon by others

1189
00:59:45,886 --> 00:59:48,367
that was given meaning
that it never had before,

1190
00:59:48,410 --> 00:59:51,109
I would just
encourage Matt to...

1191
00:59:51,152 --> 00:59:54,025
you know, just be glad
to have been a small part

1192
00:59:54,068 --> 00:59:55,113
of a very big thing.

1193
00:59:57,985 --> 01:00:00,901
Art is supposed to be
therapeutic, so, uh...

1194
01:00:00,945 --> 01:00:02,860
before Trump got elected,

1195
01:00:02,903 --> 01:00:06,733
I just did this kind of, like,
nightmare scenario of Pepe,

1196
01:00:06,777 --> 01:00:09,170
like slowly morphing
into Donald Trump

1197
01:00:09,214 --> 01:00:11,172
and then into a monster
and then,

1198
01:00:11,216 --> 01:00:13,348
uh, being trapped inside
the monster's mouth,

1199
01:00:13,392 --> 01:00:15,220
as you can see, and, uh...

1200
01:00:15,263 --> 01:00:16,482
It's like a nuclear war.

1201
01:00:25,230 --> 01:00:28,407
This is
the new American moment.

1202
01:00:28,450 --> 01:00:32,498
This is like Martin-Luther-King- I-have-a-dream speech.

1203
01:00:32,541 --> 01:00:36,763
It's like Washington
crossing the Delaware

1204
01:00:36,807 --> 01:00:40,114
♪ We are the champions

1205
01:00:45,859 --> 01:00:47,382
We were all ecstatic.

1206
01:00:50,734 --> 01:00:53,475
Donald Trump, he
wasn't supposed to be there.

1207
01:00:53,519 --> 01:00:54,999
We all felt, like,

1208
01:00:55,042 --> 01:00:58,785
the meming had played a part
in the election.

1209
01:00:58,829 --> 01:01:02,920
The Internet's joke
kind of came to fruition.

1210
01:01:14,888 --> 01:01:18,239
The chaotic scene just blocks outside the secure

1211
01:01:18,283 --> 01:01:20,546
of the inauguration
and parade routes.

1212
01:01:22,548 --> 01:01:24,115
-What?

1213
01:01:24,158 --> 01:01:26,595
It's Pepe.
He's become kind of a symbol...

1214
01:01:47,704 --> 01:01:50,707
After the election,
Matt just came to me and said,

1215
01:01:50,750 --> 01:01:53,361
"Hey, I'm going to draw
a comic strip with Pepe in it

1216
01:01:53,405 --> 01:01:55,233
and I'm going to kill him."

1217
01:01:55,276 --> 01:01:58,845
The Pepe thing was so
out of control at that point

1218
01:01:58,889 --> 01:02:01,587
and whatever Pepe meant
to all these other people

1219
01:02:01,630 --> 01:02:03,415
didn't mean
the same thing to me.

1220
01:02:04,329 --> 01:02:05,547
So I just killed him.

1221
01:02:08,725 --> 01:02:10,335
I just thought it'd be
funny to do a comic strip

1222
01:02:10,378 --> 01:02:12,119
where all the boys
are at his funeral.

1223
01:02:13,338 --> 01:02:14,861
♪ Your picture

1224
01:02:17,603 --> 01:02:19,083
♪ Is still

1225
01:02:21,781 --> 01:02:23,696
♪ On my wall

1226
01:02:26,046 --> 01:02:27,874
♪ On my wall

1227
01:02:30,659 --> 01:02:32,270
♪ The color

1228
01:02:35,142 --> 01:02:37,057
♪ Are bright

1229
01:02:40,017 --> 01:02:41,583
♪ Bright

1230
01:02:44,238 --> 01:02:45,892
- ♪ As ever

1231
01:02:48,503 --> 01:02:52,638
♪ The red is strong

1232
01:02:52,681 --> 01:02:55,989
♪ The blue will rest pure

1233
01:02:57,121 --> 01:03:00,820
♪ Something lasts

1234
01:03:00,864 --> 01:03:03,170
♪ A long time

1235
01:03:06,434 --> 01:03:10,003
♪ Something lasts

1236
01:03:10,047 --> 01:03:12,136
♪ A long time

1237
01:03:19,970 --> 01:03:23,712
I didn't think it'd
get noticed or anything.

1238
01:03:23,756 --> 01:03:24,844
I'm sure you recognize

1239
01:03:24,888 --> 01:03:26,454
the cartoon character
Pepe the Frog.

1240
01:03:26,498 --> 01:03:28,326
Well, he won't be around so much longer

1241
01:03:28,369 --> 01:03:31,155
because his creator has decided to kill him off.

1242
01:03:31,198 --> 01:03:33,766
A carton frog died
on the Internet.

1243
01:03:33,810 --> 01:03:35,855
His name was Pepe.

1244
01:03:35,899 --> 01:03:38,597
It seemed like every time
he drew Pepe,

1245
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,729
he would get
hounded by reporters.

1246
01:03:44,690 --> 01:03:46,605
- He just hated it.

1247
01:03:52,741 --> 01:03:56,658
When I had first seen
Matt's death of Pepe comic,

1248
01:03:56,702 --> 01:03:58,878
I was honestly a bit sad.

1249
01:04:00,010 --> 01:04:01,881
But the Pepe we see,
unfortunately,

1250
01:04:01,925 --> 01:04:03,883
has been so far removed
from the original...

1251
01:04:03,927 --> 01:04:06,843
that the Pepe Matt was killing
was his own.

1252
01:04:19,116 --> 01:04:21,335
The burden
of this weird Pepe shit

1253
01:04:21,379 --> 01:04:24,991
was starting to make me feel
anxious and weird.

1254
01:04:29,126 --> 01:04:31,650
Maybe it is
whatever people say it is.

1255
01:04:31,693 --> 01:04:34,131
Like I can't fucking control it, you know.

1256
01:04:40,137 --> 01:04:43,183
♪ The power that's inside

1257
01:04:43,227 --> 01:04:45,403
♪ Pokemon!
Gotta catch 'em all! ♪

1258
01:04:45,446 --> 01:04:47,448
♪ It's you and me

1259
01:04:54,020 --> 01:04:57,284
Owning a rare Pepe
is about being alpha.

1260
01:04:57,328 --> 01:05:02,115
It's about having dank,
rare Pepes nobody else has.

1261
01:05:02,159 --> 01:05:05,118
And it's about how do we
get to the moon in a Lambo.

1262
01:05:07,077 --> 01:05:08,556
Okay, let's pull it up.

1263
01:05:09,949 --> 01:05:11,995
I'm in these crypto forums,

1264
01:05:12,038 --> 01:05:13,866
and for the longest time,

1265
01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:16,216
these guys would talk
about Pepe Cash.

1266
01:05:17,478 --> 01:05:19,132
Some huge guys,

1267
01:05:19,176 --> 01:05:21,961
like, seven to eight figure
portfolio crypto guys.

1268
01:05:22,005 --> 01:05:24,007
And I look at the website,
I'm like, "What?

1269
01:05:24,050 --> 01:05:25,965
What the fuck
are they talking about?"

1270
01:05:26,009 --> 01:05:27,010
What is it?

1271
01:05:31,362 --> 01:05:33,755
So I actually am a Pepe Cash millionaire.

1272
01:05:34,974 --> 01:05:36,106
How many million is that?

1273
01:05:36,149 --> 01:05:38,195
Is that 363 million?

1274
01:05:38,238 --> 01:05:42,025
Ah, 363 million Internet Pepe.

1275
01:05:42,068 --> 01:05:43,374
You know, I like that.

1276
01:05:45,202 --> 01:05:47,639
This is when
we christened the SS Rare Pepe

1277
01:05:47,682 --> 01:05:50,555
which I bought with Pepe Cash
and I live on it.

1278
01:05:52,426 --> 01:05:55,212
If you want to explain
the rare Pepe economy,

1279
01:05:55,255 --> 01:05:58,302
imagine a few dozen geeks
on the Internet

1280
01:05:58,345 --> 01:06:02,132
came up with a way to trade
memes off 4chan

1281
01:06:02,175 --> 01:06:05,396
and lock them into ownership.

1282
01:06:05,439 --> 01:06:07,789
There are some Pepes
that are superhero knockoffs.

1283
01:06:07,833 --> 01:06:10,879
You know, Iron Man Pepes,
Spiderman Pepes.

1284
01:06:10,923 --> 01:06:13,273
Some people's heroes
are more political in nature.

1285
01:06:13,317 --> 01:06:14,753
Trump Pepe,

1286
01:06:14,796 --> 01:06:16,581
which is awesome,
because he's just like,

1287
01:06:16,624 --> 01:06:18,452
"Make crypto great again,
whether you like it or not."

1288
01:06:20,498 --> 01:06:21,934
It's much different
than comic books,

1289
01:06:21,978 --> 01:06:23,718
or even collectible
baseball cards

1290
01:06:23,762 --> 01:06:28,767
because it exists as math
on the Internet first...

1291
01:06:28,810 --> 01:06:32,553
and then later you can print
the physical copy of it.

1292
01:06:32,597 --> 01:06:35,295
This is the physical card.
This is worthless.

1293
01:06:35,339 --> 01:06:36,993
This is the thing that's worth

1294
01:06:37,036 --> 01:06:38,690
hundreds of thousands
of dollars.

1295
01:06:40,083 --> 01:06:42,868
So, I was going
to this digital arts conference

1296
01:06:42,911 --> 01:06:44,957
called Rare AF. Rare As Fuck.

1297
01:06:46,828 --> 01:06:48,178
Luckily for me,

1298
01:06:48,221 --> 01:06:51,485
they're having the world's
first rare Pepe auction.

1299
01:06:51,529 --> 01:06:53,009
Rare Pepe after rare Pepe

1300
01:06:53,052 --> 01:06:55,054
after beautiful rare Pepe
passing by

1301
01:06:55,098 --> 01:06:57,013
and then finally
gets to the end.

1302
01:06:57,056 --> 01:06:59,232
It's the ultimate rare Pepe.

1303
01:06:59,276 --> 01:07:00,625
The Homer Pepe.

1304
01:07:03,236 --> 01:07:04,803
And I'm like,
"I'm getting this thing."

1305
01:07:04,846 --> 01:07:05,978
Homer for 200.

1306
01:07:06,022 --> 01:07:07,284
- Homer!
-Two hundred.

1307
01:07:07,327 --> 01:07:08,589
People start placing bids.

1308
01:07:08,633 --> 01:07:11,070
Twenty, 30, 40,
100,000 Pepe Cash.

1309
01:07:11,114 --> 01:07:12,724
Two hundred thousand Pepe Cash.

1310
01:07:12,767 --> 01:07:14,073
- Two seventy-five.
- Two seventy.

1311
01:07:14,117 --> 01:07:15,640
It starts getting
so crazy

1312
01:07:15,683 --> 01:07:18,338
and it gets
to 350,000 Pepe Cash.

1313
01:07:18,382 --> 01:07:21,515
Which is about
39,000 US dollars.

1314
01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:24,214
Three hundred fifty going once,
going twice.

1315
01:07:24,257 --> 01:07:25,954
- Uh-oh!
-Sold!

1316
01:07:28,044 --> 01:07:31,134
What inspired you
to pay 39,000 US dollars

1317
01:07:31,177 --> 01:07:33,832
-for a rare Pepe?
-I'm just excited about Pepe.

1318
01:07:33,875 --> 01:07:34,876
Okay.

1319
01:07:36,226 --> 01:07:37,531
So this is Homer Pepe.

1320
01:07:39,055 --> 01:07:42,188
Currently the world's
most valuable rare Pepe.

1321
01:07:43,494 --> 01:07:46,758
Now what makes
this Pepe worth so much?

1322
01:07:46,801 --> 01:07:49,326
It's the only one
with a misprint.

1323
01:07:49,369 --> 01:07:53,330
Wait a minute.
"Wait a mintue. Wait a mintue."

1324
01:07:53,373 --> 01:07:54,374
That's value.

1325
01:08:25,753 --> 01:08:27,015
You're Matt, right?

1326
01:08:30,410 --> 01:08:32,195
You have gainfully employed
all of us.

1327
01:08:35,546 --> 01:08:38,157
So, uh...
What are you guys talking about?

1328
01:08:38,201 --> 01:08:41,029
We're all working
the general realm of, you know,

1329
01:08:41,073 --> 01:08:44,424
weird online behavior
from a scientific perspective.

1330
01:08:44,468 --> 01:08:47,166
We have, uh,
security people from the U.S.

1331
01:08:47,210 --> 01:08:49,342
We have cryptographers
from the U.K.

1332
01:08:49,386 --> 01:08:52,171
We have systems people
from, uh, mainland Europe

1333
01:08:52,215 --> 01:08:54,565
and we take a large scale
analysis of data,

1334
01:08:54,608 --> 01:08:57,002
getting a quantitative
understanding of hate speech

1335
01:08:57,045 --> 01:08:58,090
throughout the web.

1336
01:08:59,483 --> 01:09:01,049
We had to figure out a way

1337
01:09:01,093 --> 01:09:03,182
to be able to measure
this stuff at large scale

1338
01:09:03,226 --> 01:09:07,578
and we ended up building
a system to measure memes.

1339
01:09:07,621 --> 01:09:09,754
Just to give you
an idea of the scale, Matt.

1340
01:09:09,797 --> 01:09:12,278
So we had over a billion posts

1341
01:09:12,322 --> 01:09:15,063
from Twitter, Reddit,
/pol/ and Gab.,

1342
01:09:15,107 --> 01:09:18,197
and we examined the 160 million
some odd images.

1343
01:09:18,241 --> 01:09:19,851
So obviously,
these weren't all Pepes,

1344
01:09:19,894 --> 01:09:22,375
but the scale of this data
is huge.

1345
01:09:22,419 --> 01:09:24,508
-This is only for a year.
-Interesting.

1346
01:09:24,551 --> 01:09:26,597
There's a variety
of different memes,

1347
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,774
but there tends to be
a Pepe variant

1348
01:09:29,817 --> 01:09:31,863
in every single one
of these clusters. So...

1349
01:09:31,906 --> 01:09:33,343
You pick a random meme

1350
01:09:33,386 --> 01:09:35,258
and Pepe has been
inserted into it

1351
01:09:35,301 --> 01:09:37,695
in some way, shape or form.

1352
01:09:37,738 --> 01:09:39,871
In a lot of ways,
Pepe becomes an entry point

1353
01:09:39,914 --> 01:09:41,612
to radicalization.

1354
01:09:41,655 --> 01:09:43,875
That's a very scary thing
to think about.

1355
01:09:43,918 --> 01:09:47,444
Do you feel any
personal responsibility for...

1356
01:09:47,487 --> 01:09:49,097
the bad stuff
that has come out of this?

1357
01:09:50,142 --> 01:09:51,230
I mean, you shouldn't,

1358
01:09:51,274 --> 01:09:52,318
but you know,
we're humans, right?

1359
01:09:52,362 --> 01:09:53,406
We feel guilt
for things

1360
01:09:53,450 --> 01:09:55,234
that we shouldn't feel
guilt for.

1361
01:09:55,278 --> 01:09:58,237
Um, I'm... I mean, uh,

1362
01:09:58,281 --> 01:10:00,718
maybe I could have been
more proactive earlier on

1363
01:10:00,761 --> 01:10:02,285
-to, like, try to control it.
-Yeah.

1364
01:10:02,328 --> 01:10:04,243
So, the question of,
"Can you get Pepe back?"

1365
01:10:04,287 --> 01:10:06,289
The reality is that
there is, you know,

1366
01:10:06,332 --> 01:10:09,988
160 million memes, essentially,
in a year, that we collected.

1367
01:10:10,031 --> 01:10:11,119
Not all of them
were Pepes again,

1368
01:10:11,163 --> 01:10:12,730
but a good chunk of them are.

1369
01:10:12,773 --> 01:10:14,775
That's a tough genie
to put back in the bottle.

1370
01:10:14,819 --> 01:10:16,777
Um, yeah. I wish you luck.

1371
01:10:16,821 --> 01:10:18,344
I do.

1372
01:10:18,388 --> 01:10:19,389
Sincerely.

1373
01:10:23,393 --> 01:10:25,046
So...

1374
01:10:25,090 --> 01:10:27,397
I try to stay positive,
you know.

1375
01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:29,007
But to be honest, I...

1376
01:10:29,050 --> 01:10:30,095
I've gotten trolled.

1377
01:10:31,401 --> 01:10:32,837
Somebody sent me this.

1378
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:35,143
I don't take it personally

1379
01:10:35,187 --> 01:10:38,756
even though
I'm having my head decapitated.

1380
01:10:38,799 --> 01:10:40,845
It is what it is
what it is, right?

1381
01:10:41,585 --> 01:10:42,586
Um...

1382
01:10:45,937 --> 01:10:48,722
It's not like wearing
on kind of, like, my spirit.

1383
01:10:48,766 --> 01:10:51,595
But it's kind of wearing
on my drive to be creative.

1384
01:10:54,337 --> 01:10:59,559
It did manifest anxieties that
I have yet to unravel.

1385
01:11:01,039 --> 01:11:03,259
He just kinda
slept a lot and, uh...

1386
01:11:05,217 --> 01:11:08,002
You know, honestly it was
kinda like hard to talk to him.

1387
01:11:09,395 --> 01:11:11,354
You know, I let him know
I was there for him

1388
01:11:11,397 --> 01:11:12,659
and all that, but, like,

1389
01:11:12,703 --> 01:11:15,619
there wasn't anything
anyone could really do.

1390
01:11:17,838 --> 01:11:20,232
Tonight a Denton ISD assistant principal

1391
01:11:20,276 --> 01:11:23,279
is coming under fire for writing a new children's book.

1392
01:11:23,322 --> 01:11:25,542
A book, some say,
is politically motivated.

1393
01:11:25,585 --> 01:11:27,805
I'm using Pepe just as
a lighthearted way

1394
01:11:27,848 --> 01:11:31,112
of expressing maybe some
conservative, uh, values.

1395
01:11:32,331 --> 01:11:33,898
If you love America,

1396
01:11:33,941 --> 01:11:35,726
you're going to love this book
for sure.

1397
01:11:39,469 --> 01:11:40,905
When Matt found out

1398
01:11:40,948 --> 01:11:44,996
that there was an Islamophobic
racist children's book

1399
01:11:45,039 --> 01:11:49,305
starring Pepe coming out
on Amazon,

1400
01:11:49,957 --> 01:11:51,263
he was so upset.

1401
01:11:52,786 --> 01:11:57,356
And that's when he kind of...
freaked out about it.

1402
01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,010
It was, like,
the last straw.

1403
01:12:01,404 --> 01:12:04,624
It's like... It's like hell,
man. Like...

1404
01:12:04,668 --> 01:12:06,931
If you want to...
If you want to escape hell,

1405
01:12:06,974 --> 01:12:08,193
you can't ignore it.

1406
01:12:08,236 --> 01:12:09,977
You almost have to go
to the center of it.

1407
01:12:20,423 --> 01:12:22,294
It is not very often

1408
01:12:22,338 --> 01:12:24,601
that nerdy intellectual
property lawyers

1409
01:12:24,644 --> 01:12:26,994
get asked to fight
the alt-right.

1410
01:12:27,038 --> 01:12:29,214
But when we do, we're ready.

1411
01:12:33,436 --> 01:12:35,525
I have a whole team
of lawyers

1412
01:12:35,568 --> 01:12:37,396
that are working with me
pro bono

1413
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:39,398
and have really
empowered me to feel

1414
01:12:39,442 --> 01:12:42,183
like I do have some say
in all this.

1415
01:12:45,056 --> 01:12:48,668
He really wanted to prevent
the digital release of the book.

1416
01:12:48,712 --> 01:12:51,410
Inside it was, in fact,

1417
01:12:51,454 --> 01:12:53,499
a not so veiled reference
to a lot of alt-right themes.

1418
01:12:55,153 --> 01:12:57,068
We found out
who was publishing it

1419
01:12:57,111 --> 01:13:00,550
and explained that Matt Furie
owned the copyright to Pepe

1420
01:13:00,593 --> 01:13:04,510
and that we were prepared to enforce his rights in court.

1421
01:13:04,554 --> 01:13:06,425
The Adventures
of Pepe and Pede.

1422
01:13:06,469 --> 01:13:09,863
the electronic version
was never published.

1423
01:13:09,907 --> 01:13:13,824
But the issue here is,
when you shut down one person,

1424
01:13:13,867 --> 01:13:15,086
others pop up.

1425
01:13:17,262 --> 01:13:18,785
- You know,

1426
01:13:18,829 --> 01:13:22,136
I'm a compassionate guy
and I'm a sensitive guy.

1427
01:13:22,180 --> 01:13:24,661
But being able to work
with a team of lawyers

1428
01:13:24,704 --> 01:13:26,837
has given me strength to...

1429
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:29,970
shut these assholes up.

1430
01:13:31,494 --> 01:13:32,582
You've been sued
by a frog, bro.

1431
01:13:32,625 --> 01:13:33,583
Do you even
know this yet?

1432
01:13:33,626 --> 01:13:34,845
No.

1433
01:13:34,888 --> 01:13:36,150
-It's all over the Internet.
-I'm surprised.

1434
01:13:36,194 --> 01:13:37,674
Surprise, motherfucker.
You got sued by a frog.

1435
01:13:37,717 --> 01:13:38,805
You've been sued
by a fucking' frog, dude.

1436
01:13:38,849 --> 01:13:42,026
A conspiracy frog named Pepe.

1437
01:13:42,069 --> 01:13:45,333
We did sell
a poster that a listener made

1438
01:13:45,377 --> 01:13:46,944
titled Make American Great Again

1439
01:13:46,987 --> 01:13:48,598
that had a bunch of images,

1440
01:13:48,641 --> 01:13:51,209
of symbols that were popular
during the campaign.

1441
01:13:51,252 --> 01:13:52,906
We talked
to our trademark lawyers

1442
01:13:52,950 --> 01:13:56,475
and they said,"Mr. Jones,
this is so outrageous.

1443
01:13:56,519 --> 01:13:58,172
It's against
the First Amendment"

1444
01:13:58,216 --> 01:14:00,436
It is insane.

1445
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,090
This is cockamamie balderdash.

1446
01:14:04,875 --> 01:14:06,833
He was selling a poster
with Pepe on it

1447
01:14:06,877 --> 01:14:08,182
with a bunch of douchebags

1448
01:14:08,226 --> 01:14:09,575
and I just didn't want him
to sell the poster.

1449
01:14:09,619 --> 01:14:11,359
The problem
isn't the drawing

1450
01:14:11,403 --> 01:14:14,101
or the making of the art,
you can do that.

1451
01:14:14,145 --> 01:14:17,365
It's just when
you mass produce it and sell it,

1452
01:14:17,409 --> 01:14:20,456
that's when it gets
into a stickier area.

1453
01:14:20,499 --> 01:14:23,023
He's like, "Yeah, the man's gonna stop us."

1454
01:14:23,067 --> 01:14:26,679
He just jacked up
the price of the poster

1455
01:14:26,723 --> 01:14:28,333
and then offered to sign them.

1456
01:14:28,376 --> 01:14:30,074
I'm trying to free
Pepe the Frog.

1457
01:14:30,117 --> 01:14:31,554
And I'm either
going to succeed

1458
01:14:31,597 --> 01:14:33,991
or I'll be destroyed
in the process, but that's okay.

1459
01:14:35,514 --> 01:14:38,474
I actually don't know
many people on here.

1460
01:14:38,517 --> 01:14:39,953
- Is that Trump, too?
- Yeah.

1461
01:14:39,997 --> 01:14:41,259
-There's are two Trumps.
-Sounds like having two Trumps

1462
01:14:41,302 --> 01:14:43,348
in the same poster,
is that legal?

1463
01:14:45,393 --> 01:14:47,308
Well, that's Billie Joe
Armstrong from Green Day.

1464
01:14:49,180 --> 01:14:50,834
And there's Marsha
from The Brady Bunch.

1465
01:14:50,877 --> 01:14:52,139
-Billy Idol.

1466
01:14:52,183 --> 01:14:55,491
-Billy Idol.
-And there's Courtney Love.

1467
01:15:00,365 --> 01:15:02,236
A lot of times,
I'm cutting people's hair

1468
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:04,543
for court
when they're in trouble so...

1469
01:15:04,587 --> 01:15:06,763
Yeah, I'm not into...
I'm not in any trouble at all.

1470
01:15:06,806 --> 01:15:09,896
Just, uh, weird situation.

1471
01:15:09,940 --> 01:15:12,725
Yeah, I've got this
kinda, like, a notorious,

1472
01:15:12,769 --> 01:15:14,988
uh, character named
Pepe the Frog.

1473
01:15:15,032 --> 01:15:16,773
-Have you ever heard of him?
- Yeah, I actually have.

1474
01:15:16,816 --> 01:15:19,253
-My kids have, too. Yeah.
-Oh, yeah?

1475
01:15:19,297 --> 01:15:22,692
- This guy, Pepe?
-Yeah, that guy right there.

1476
01:15:22,735 --> 01:15:25,433
So the guy, Matt,
do you know him?

1477
01:15:25,477 --> 01:15:26,565
That's me.

1478
01:15:26,609 --> 01:15:28,045
That who you got to go
to court with?

1479
01:15:28,088 --> 01:15:29,525
Oh, no, that's me. I am Matt.

1480
01:15:29,568 --> 01:15:30,830
- Oh, you're Matt.
-Yeah.

1481
01:15:31,918 --> 01:15:33,006
Oh.

1482
01:15:35,052 --> 01:15:38,272
I don't know who this guy is doing, this Furie fella.

1483
01:15:38,316 --> 01:15:40,144
But I agreed to be deposed...

1484
01:15:41,188 --> 01:15:43,364
for the Pepe the Frog deal.

1485
01:15:43,408 --> 01:15:44,931
Sir, would you raise
your right hand to be sworn?

1486
01:15:44,975 --> 01:15:46,019
Do you solemnly state

1487
01:15:46,063 --> 01:15:47,107
the testimony
you're about to give

1488
01:15:47,151 --> 01:15:48,282
will be the truth,
the whole truth

1489
01:15:48,326 --> 01:15:49,762
-and nothing but the truth?
-I do.

1490
01:15:53,766 --> 01:15:56,508
I don't like the frog.
I don't like this whole thing.

1491
01:15:56,552 --> 01:15:58,118
But I got to stand up
for the First Amendment.

1492
01:15:59,946 --> 01:16:01,905
Let's say the frog is triggering
for me now.

1493
01:16:03,863 --> 01:16:05,343
I hate Pepe.

1494
01:16:05,386 --> 01:16:07,693
Video tape deposition of Matt Furie

1495
01:16:07,737 --> 01:16:10,130
in the matter
of Matt Furie vs. InfoWars,

1496
01:16:10,174 --> 01:16:12,655
and Free Speech, LLC.

1497
01:16:13,786 --> 01:16:16,136
So from 2001 to 2007,

1498
01:16:16,180 --> 01:16:20,140
you had sort of this carefree
part-time, knucklehead life.

1499
01:16:21,489 --> 01:16:22,795
I still have that.

1500
01:16:22,839 --> 01:16:25,276
Excellent.

1501
01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:27,321
And what did you do to prepare
for today's deposition?

1502
01:16:28,932 --> 01:16:30,411
Really nothing.

1503
01:16:30,455 --> 01:16:33,850
So how did you pick
the name Pepe the Frog?

1504
01:16:33,893 --> 01:16:36,417
It sounded like, um, "peepee."

1505
01:16:37,723 --> 01:16:39,203
To go peepee.

1506
01:16:39,246 --> 01:16:40,770
So it is
a cartoon frog, right?

1507
01:16:40,813 --> 01:16:41,901
Yes, it's a cartoon frog.

1508
01:16:41,945 --> 01:16:44,512
It has round lips, right?

1509
01:16:45,513 --> 01:16:47,124
I wouldn't call that round lips.

1510
01:16:47,167 --> 01:16:49,387
- Okay. Uh...
-More tubular.

1511
01:16:49,430 --> 01:16:50,954
Tubular lips.

1512
01:16:50,997 --> 01:16:53,783
I thought I had some kind of like Zen-like grip.

1513
01:16:53,826 --> 01:16:55,915
He kinda did the good cop,
bad cop thing on me.

1514
01:16:55,959 --> 01:16:59,005
He was like, "So you like
Beavis and Butthead"?

1515
01:16:59,049 --> 01:17:00,180
Do you watch
Ren and Stimpy?

1516
01:17:00,224 --> 01:17:01,399
Yes.

1517
01:17:01,442 --> 01:17:03,531
But then,
he was all kind of like...

1518
01:17:03,575 --> 01:17:04,707
"Let's get 'em."

1519
01:17:04,750 --> 01:17:07,448
Forty-nine.
This is a fun one.

1520
01:17:11,235 --> 01:17:14,194
Hold that up
and tell us what's 49?

1521
01:17:14,238 --> 01:17:17,676
Um, yeah, it's an allegory
on the direction nature's going

1522
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:19,809
from my perspective.

1523
01:17:19,852 --> 01:17:21,549
Uh, excuse me.
The second to last page.

1524
01:17:21,593 --> 01:17:22,812
-Page 20.
-I'm sorry.

1525
01:17:22,855 --> 01:17:25,423
I worked out this morning.

1526
01:17:25,466 --> 01:17:27,381
It's just coincidental
that they look alike?

1527
01:17:27,425 --> 01:17:28,861
Absolutely.

1528
01:17:28,905 --> 01:17:32,952
An original character
that's based on a hot dog man.

1529
01:17:32,996 --> 01:17:35,172
Part man, part hot dog.

1530
01:17:35,215 --> 01:17:36,782
It's clear what all this is.

1531
01:17:36,826 --> 01:17:38,566
So people can say Jones is using
a white supremacist symbol

1532
01:17:38,610 --> 01:17:39,959
when it's not.

1533
01:17:40,003 --> 01:17:41,178
It's a way of saying
I'm a white supremacist.

1534
01:17:41,221 --> 01:17:44,355
It's a way of defaming me...

1535
01:17:44,398 --> 01:17:46,618
and acting like I stole
something all at the same time.

1536
01:17:46,662 --> 01:17:48,272
It's just... god! Evil!

1537
01:17:49,708 --> 01:17:51,754
That's just evil!

1538
01:17:51,797 --> 01:17:52,842
Is that Big Bird?

1539
01:17:52,885 --> 01:17:54,408
Yes.

1540
01:17:54,452 --> 01:17:55,540
Thirty-one
is not Grimace?

1541
01:17:55,583 --> 01:17:57,020
No.

1542
01:17:57,063 --> 01:17:59,718
So those aren't
derivations of the Hamburglar?

1543
01:17:59,762 --> 01:18:01,677
-Oh, these guys?
- Yes.

1544
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,462
-Do you mean Mayor McCheese?

1545
01:18:04,505 --> 01:18:06,682
And you got no license
to put that up.

1546
01:18:06,725 --> 01:18:08,901
-When I was in sixth grade,

1547
01:18:08,945 --> 01:18:11,817
I did not attain the license
to draw this stuff.

1548
01:18:13,776 --> 01:18:15,212
You know, I went to the bathroom
at one point

1549
01:18:15,255 --> 01:18:18,258
and he's taking a piss, too,
and he's like, uh...

1550
01:18:18,302 --> 01:18:20,696
"So I guess this is where
all the dicks hang out."

1551
01:18:20,739 --> 01:18:22,915
And I was like,
"Ha ha, that's funny.

1552
01:18:22,959 --> 01:18:24,874
And also awkward
that I got my dick in my hand

1553
01:18:24,917 --> 01:18:26,571
and we're talking
right now and..."

1554
01:18:26,614 --> 01:18:27,877
And then, shortly after that,

1555
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:29,226
he's just
fucking screaming at me.

1556
01:18:29,269 --> 01:18:31,794
We're suing, uh, Alex Jones...

1557
01:18:32,664 --> 01:18:33,883
because he...

1558
01:18:33,926 --> 01:18:35,014
That's not the question
I asked you.

1559
01:18:35,058 --> 01:18:36,233
Oh.

1560
01:18:36,276 --> 01:18:37,538
Answer the question
I asked you.

1561
01:18:37,582 --> 01:18:39,236
It... It...

1562
01:18:39,279 --> 01:18:42,587
twisted my noodles for a while
and I, like...

1563
01:18:42,630 --> 01:18:45,285
You know when you, like,
say something in passing

1564
01:18:45,329 --> 01:18:47,200
to somebody else
and it's like...

1565
01:18:47,244 --> 01:18:48,854
you wish you would've said
something else.

1566
01:18:48,898 --> 01:18:52,336
This was like four hours of concentrated...

1567
01:18:52,379 --> 01:18:55,382
me wishing I would have said
something else.

1568
01:18:55,426 --> 01:18:57,254
It's not
a comfortable situation.

1569
01:18:57,297 --> 01:19:00,736
Dude, it sucked. It was hard.

1570
01:19:00,779 --> 01:19:02,999
From my point of view,
this is a direct copy.

1571
01:19:04,348 --> 01:19:06,306
So all of your
references before

1572
01:19:06,350 --> 01:19:07,568
are just references.

1573
01:19:07,612 --> 01:19:09,179
But this one is what,
traced, you mean?

1574
01:19:09,222 --> 01:19:10,789
Yeah.

1575
01:19:10,833 --> 01:19:13,749
Why do you suppose Pepe
looks happy in that picture?

1576
01:19:13,792 --> 01:19:15,098
Pepe's kinda like a mirror.

1577
01:19:15,141 --> 01:19:18,754
So the way that users online
would use Pepe

1578
01:19:18,797 --> 01:19:20,364
is a reflection of...

1579
01:19:21,234 --> 01:19:22,670
themselves, to an extent.

1580
01:19:22,714 --> 01:19:26,239
That's my...
interpretation of it.

1581
01:19:27,850 --> 01:19:29,068
No further questions.

1582
01:19:29,112 --> 01:19:30,243
I have nothing else here either.

1583
01:19:30,287 --> 01:19:31,897
Thank you for your time.

1584
01:19:31,941 --> 01:19:33,551
This marks the end of the video
tape deposition of Alex Jones.

1585
01:19:33,594 --> 01:19:34,291
This marks the end of the video
tape deposition of Alex Jones.

1586
01:19:34,334 --> 01:19:35,901
Good luck.

1587
01:19:35,945 --> 01:19:38,338
We're going off record
and the time is 13:00 even.

1588
01:19:42,516 --> 01:19:43,561
Let's try to find
a little round...

1589
01:19:43,604 --> 01:19:45,868
- Oh!
-Oh, there it is.

1590
01:19:45,911 --> 01:19:48,522
-There.
-So we need two dark green ones.

1591
01:19:48,566 --> 01:19:49,785
Okay.

1592
01:19:51,351 --> 01:19:52,831
It took me weeks
to detangle my mind

1593
01:19:52,875 --> 01:19:57,618
after all this legal stuff.

1594
01:19:57,662 --> 01:19:59,925
That's what I signed up for,
you know.

1595
01:19:59,969 --> 01:20:01,622
It's not going
to be easy, but...

1596
01:20:01,666 --> 01:20:03,929
but I'm willing to go
the distance with this shit.

1597
01:20:10,109 --> 01:20:12,329
♪ And he hops and hops

1598
01:20:12,372 --> 01:20:16,246
♪ Pepe, watch out
And he hops and hops ♪

1599
01:20:16,289 --> 01:20:17,769
♪ Pepe, do stop

1600
01:20:17,813 --> 01:20:19,945
- ♪ And he hops and hops

1601
01:20:19,989 --> 01:20:21,991
♪ You make me dizzy

1602
01:20:22,034 --> 01:20:23,557
♪ You make me dizzy

1603
01:20:23,601 --> 01:20:25,559
♪ I say, Pepe, come here

1604
01:20:25,603 --> 01:20:28,127
-Yeah.
- ♪ And he hops and hops

1605
01:20:28,171 --> 01:20:29,737
♪ Pepe, watch out

1606
01:20:36,614 --> 01:20:39,269
Everybody's
saying congratulations.

1607
01:20:39,312 --> 01:20:43,360
"A sparkle of good news
in these troubling times."

1608
01:20:49,366 --> 01:20:51,020
This was actually
going to trial.

1609
01:20:51,063 --> 01:20:52,238
And then Louis was just, like,

1610
01:20:52,282 --> 01:20:54,893
"Oh, surprisingly
they want to settle."

1611
01:20:54,937 --> 01:20:57,548
We were confident we were gonna prevail at trial.

1612
01:20:57,591 --> 01:20:59,419
And InfoWars gave up.

1613
01:21:00,943 --> 01:21:03,075
It just went live
on InfoWars.com.

1614
01:21:03,119 --> 01:21:05,512
InfoWars settles
Pepe the Frog lawsuit.

1615
01:21:05,556 --> 01:21:08,776
Pays tiny settlement
to creator Matt Furie.

1616
01:21:08,820 --> 01:21:10,039
This amount...

1617
01:21:10,082 --> 01:21:12,258
It's a bar tab
at a topless club, you know,

1618
01:21:12,302 --> 01:21:13,607
for one good night, so...

1619
01:21:13,651 --> 01:21:15,218
-So, what the heck.

1620
01:21:15,261 --> 01:21:17,873
This is more than I've ever made on theBoy's Club comic books.

1621
01:21:17,916 --> 01:21:20,397
So, it just, kind of...
To put it into context, like,

1622
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:22,181
Alex Jones is like...

1623
01:21:22,225 --> 01:21:25,054
"Hey, we got away
with barely paying anything."

1624
01:21:25,097 --> 01:21:26,969
But it's all...
it's all relative.

1625
01:21:27,012 --> 01:21:29,101
This is a big deal to show
what these bullies are up to

1626
01:21:29,145 --> 01:21:30,537
and what happens
when you stand up to them.

1627
01:21:33,714 --> 01:21:35,542
At the end of the day,
he's just...

1628
01:21:35,586 --> 01:21:39,720
selling a bunch of bad ideas,
bad supplements,

1629
01:21:39,764 --> 01:21:41,809
in a bad attitude.

1630
01:21:41,853 --> 01:21:44,160
It's just a business.

1631
01:21:44,203 --> 01:21:46,075
Without you buying
the videos and the books

1632
01:21:46,118 --> 01:21:47,467
and the supplements,

1633
01:21:47,511 --> 01:21:50,209
we couldn't put on
one hell of a junkyard dog fight

1634
01:21:50,253 --> 01:21:51,297
against these bastards.

1635
01:21:53,125 --> 01:21:55,214
This case
against InfoWars

1636
01:21:55,258 --> 01:21:57,825
was the latest
in a string of successes.

1637
01:21:57,869 --> 01:21:59,740
We went after Richard Spencer.

1638
01:21:59,784 --> 01:22:01,786
Uh, we went after Baked Alaska.

1639
01:22:01,829 --> 01:22:05,790
We went after the Daily Stormer, a neo-Nazi website.

1640
01:22:05,833 --> 01:22:09,054
We have successfully enforced
Matt's copyrights in Pepe

1641
01:22:09,098 --> 01:22:12,971
against somewhere between 75
and 100 different entities

1642
01:22:13,015 --> 01:22:16,496
in connection with images
or language of hate.

1643
01:22:16,540 --> 01:22:19,369
And this is beginning
to turn the narrative

1644
01:22:19,412 --> 01:22:20,936
of Pepe back around.

1645
01:22:30,946 --> 01:22:35,559
This guys are, kind of,
like, messing with reality.

1646
01:22:35,602 --> 01:22:39,389
Amplifying negativity
or normalizing negativity.

1647
01:22:39,432 --> 01:22:42,000
And I'm doing everything I can
in my power

1648
01:22:42,044 --> 01:22:44,394
to change the course
of this thing.

1649
01:22:44,437 --> 01:22:47,701
And I think removing Pepe
from the hate symbol list,

1650
01:22:47,745 --> 01:22:49,225
it would be a win for...

1651
01:22:50,487 --> 01:22:51,575
peace.

1652
01:22:59,583 --> 01:23:01,628
With all these legal steps
that I'm taking,

1653
01:23:01,672 --> 01:23:03,935
everything I've been doing
up until now,

1654
01:23:03,979 --> 01:23:06,982
my goal is to get it off
the hate symbol database.

1655
01:23:07,025 --> 01:23:08,461
To me, it's not a symbol.

1656
01:23:08,505 --> 01:23:09,854
It's a character, you know.

1657
01:23:09,897 --> 01:23:11,247
It's the character,

1658
01:23:11,290 --> 01:23:13,162
but he's adorned with different
symbols, you know.

1659
01:23:13,205 --> 01:23:15,686
And they're pretty
extreme stuff.

1660
01:23:15,729 --> 01:23:17,340
I mean, yeah, you know.

1661
01:23:17,383 --> 01:23:20,038
It's tough, right? Having it
on the hate symbols database,

1662
01:23:20,082 --> 01:23:21,561
we have found
to be really useful

1663
01:23:21,605 --> 01:23:23,650
for those who are trying
to understand

1664
01:23:23,694 --> 01:23:26,218
this barrage of symbols
that is being thrown at them

1665
01:23:26,262 --> 01:23:29,308
whether it's a frog, a meme,
or a hand gesture.

1666
01:23:29,352 --> 01:23:31,093
- Mm-hmm.
-It's complicated.

1667
01:23:31,136 --> 01:23:32,833
Well, yeah,
it is complicated

1668
01:23:32,877 --> 01:23:34,618
because I think
with Pepe on the list,

1669
01:23:34,661 --> 01:23:37,577
it's seen more as a win for,
you know,

1670
01:23:37,621 --> 01:23:39,318
the so called alt-right
or these others

1671
01:23:39,362 --> 01:23:41,538
because now
they have that symbol.

1672
01:23:41,581 --> 01:23:44,236
You know, this is going to be
a lifelong journey for me

1673
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:46,934
'cause I'm going to be entangled
with this character forever.

1674
01:23:46,978 --> 01:23:49,198
But what would be the impact
of removing it?

1675
01:23:49,241 --> 01:23:51,243
Most of these people
are creating these images

1676
01:23:51,287 --> 01:23:53,593
and are going to keep turning
these things out.

1677
01:23:53,637 --> 01:23:56,031
Your bottomline request...

1678
01:23:56,074 --> 01:23:57,858
It's really not going
to solve the issue.

1679
01:23:57,902 --> 01:24:00,383
It's not about this cartoon
being on the hate symbols list.

1680
01:24:01,253 --> 01:24:02,254
And it sucks!

1681
01:24:05,344 --> 01:24:06,563
- All right, man.
- Thanks a lot.

1682
01:24:06,606 --> 01:24:07,868
-Yeah, thank you.
-Good luck.

1683
01:24:20,272 --> 01:24:21,839
I don't want the narrative

1684
01:24:21,882 --> 01:24:25,451
to be like I'm victimized here.

1685
01:24:25,495 --> 01:24:29,542
People have to deal with horror on a daily level.

1686
01:24:30,630 --> 01:24:32,502
Let's work together, you know.

1687
01:24:32,545 --> 01:24:34,678
Let's uh... let's uh...

1688
01:24:36,462 --> 01:24:39,030
figure this shit out,
'cause, uh...

1689
01:24:39,074 --> 01:24:41,206
it's not getting any better,
you know.

1690
01:24:43,295 --> 01:24:45,341
All of the accounts
of what happened to me

1691
01:24:45,384 --> 01:24:48,518
and my family over the years
are enormous in scale

1692
01:24:48,561 --> 01:24:51,129
and historically rooted
in a legacy of white supremacy.

1693
01:24:51,173 --> 01:24:54,219
♪ This little light of mine

1694
01:24:54,263 --> 01:24:56,395
♪ I'm gonna let it shine

1695
01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:57,614
Why?
Why are you being provocative?

1696
01:24:57,657 --> 01:24:59,790
I like trolling people.
It's fun.

1697
01:24:59,833 --> 01:25:00,878
You do it for fun.

1698
01:25:00,921 --> 01:25:02,140
Yeah, it's fun.

1699
01:25:02,184 --> 01:25:04,186
The aesthetics and ideals

1700
01:25:04,229 --> 01:25:06,536
that extremists
are promoting online

1701
01:25:06,579 --> 01:25:08,190
with their use of Pepe the Frog

1702
01:25:08,233 --> 01:25:10,279
are now bleeding completely

1703
01:25:10,322 --> 01:25:13,412
into what you would otherwise
describe as regular people.

1704
01:25:13,456 --> 01:25:14,544
Yeah,
go ahead and video me now.

1705
01:25:14,587 --> 01:25:16,589
I'm videoing you too,
motherfucker.

1706
01:25:16,633 --> 01:25:18,243
You know what's coming
to you people, right?

1707
01:25:18,287 --> 01:25:19,853
You know Trump
is just the beginning.

1708
01:25:21,507 --> 01:25:23,770
You bearded monkeys
have no place in America.

1709
01:25:25,946 --> 01:25:27,644
The ideology is premised

1710
01:25:27,687 --> 01:25:30,516
on justifying violence
towards vulnerable people.

1711
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:34,390
USA! USA!

1712
01:25:34,433 --> 01:25:36,566
And when that seeps
into the beliefs

1713
01:25:36,609 --> 01:25:38,176
of regular Americans,

1714
01:25:38,220 --> 01:25:41,005
you're heading
for some place very bad.

1715
01:25:50,928 --> 01:25:52,451
You can't put the genie
back in the bottle,

1716
01:25:52,495 --> 01:25:54,453
but you can send it
somewhere else.

1717
01:25:56,281 --> 01:25:59,893
To actually change the narrative
it would be necessary

1718
01:25:59,937 --> 01:26:03,070
to take the frog, to take Pepe,

1719
01:26:03,114 --> 01:26:05,812
and do something very different
with him.

1720
01:26:07,379 --> 01:26:09,033
Something that could develop...

1721
01:26:09,947 --> 01:26:11,078
a meme of its own.

1722
01:26:27,443 --> 01:26:30,750
Suddenly, out of nowhere, Pepe is being used in Hong Kong

1723
01:26:30,794 --> 01:26:34,885
as a symbol of freedom,
democracy, and youth protest.

1724
01:26:34,928 --> 01:26:36,495
I was surprised
as much as anyone.

1725
01:26:42,066 --> 01:26:44,199
This is
the newer version of him.

1726
01:26:44,242 --> 01:26:45,461
He is wearing a hard hat

1727
01:26:45,504 --> 01:26:48,377
and he's wearing
the outfit of the protesters.

1728
01:26:48,420 --> 01:26:50,944
It was like a way
to resist authoritarianism.

1729
01:26:57,560 --> 01:27:01,041
Oh, he was crying
from the tear gas.

1730
01:27:01,085 --> 01:27:03,522
Pepe is now
being spray painted on walls

1731
01:27:03,566 --> 01:27:05,872
as a symbol of hope.

1732
01:27:08,092 --> 01:27:10,747
Like when does that
actually happened in history?

1733
01:27:10,790 --> 01:27:12,314
You see it in movies
all the time.

1734
01:27:12,357 --> 01:27:15,142
Like, "This is the symbol
we're all gonna rally behind."

1735
01:27:15,186 --> 01:27:17,014
Yeah, this never happens
in reality,

1736
01:27:17,057 --> 01:27:19,277
except now it happened to Pepe.

1737
01:27:22,889 --> 01:27:24,935
Pepe beams
in everyone's brain

1738
01:27:24,978 --> 01:27:27,938
this idea of, like,
the every man.

1739
01:27:27,981 --> 01:27:30,549
As you grow up,
you realize that, in fact,

1740
01:27:30,593 --> 01:27:32,116
you can affect the world,

1741
01:27:32,159 --> 01:27:35,380
and you can use a small lever

1742
01:27:35,424 --> 01:27:38,122
to actually move
a great amount of weight.

1743
01:27:40,907 --> 01:27:44,171
That's the power
that Pepe has, right? Like...

1744
01:27:44,215 --> 01:27:47,610
"Oh, what's more worthless
than cartoons?"

1745
01:27:47,653 --> 01:27:50,134
But like, "What's more powerful
than Mickey Mouse?"

1746
01:27:50,177 --> 01:27:51,657
Right? Like...

1747
01:27:51,701 --> 01:27:53,616
One of the most powerful things
you can do

1748
01:27:53,659 --> 01:27:55,270
is create an iconic cartoon.

1749
01:28:25,561 --> 01:28:27,476
In a lot
of traditional societies,

1750
01:28:27,519 --> 01:28:30,130
it was very standard
to look for omens.

1751
01:28:31,784 --> 01:28:35,222
Signs, strange portents, things that were not expected

1752
01:28:35,266 --> 01:28:36,702
that suddenly came
out of the blue.

1753
01:28:37,964 --> 01:28:39,314
Because that was a warning

1754
01:28:39,357 --> 01:28:40,880
something was shifting
in society,

1755
01:28:40,924 --> 01:28:42,099
something had gone wrong,

1756
01:28:42,142 --> 01:28:43,709
or there was something building

1757
01:28:43,753 --> 01:28:45,842
that you need to know about
before it arrived.

1758
01:28:47,409 --> 01:28:48,714
Pepe the frog is an omen.

1759
01:28:49,846 --> 01:28:51,195
We need to listen

1760
01:28:51,238 --> 01:28:53,632
because it's not going
to go away...

1761
01:28:53,676 --> 01:28:55,765
until we hear the message
that it has to say.

1762
01:29:03,555 --> 01:29:05,731
Nowadays,
I've just been thinking

1763
01:29:05,775 --> 01:29:08,908
about this concept of a spiral.

1764
01:29:08,952 --> 01:29:12,651
Life unfolding in this kind
of spirally nature.

1765
01:29:14,349 --> 01:29:17,743
So, I've been drawing
in more kind of circular ways.

1766
01:29:19,832 --> 01:29:22,444
I think that there is kind of
a collective consciousness

1767
01:29:22,487 --> 01:29:25,490
of darkness and light.

1768
01:29:25,534 --> 01:29:28,711
And the only thing
that seems true to me

1769
01:29:28,754 --> 01:29:30,800
is that everything
is going to change.

1770
01:29:30,843 --> 01:29:34,586
Like, Trump is not going
to always be the president.

1771
01:29:34,630 --> 01:29:37,807
You know, Planet Earth isn't
always gonna have people on it.

1772
01:29:37,850 --> 01:29:39,069
You know, who knows?

1773
01:29:40,418 --> 01:29:41,941
The positive notion
of Pepe

1774
01:29:41,985 --> 01:29:44,509
is the possibility
that you can change again.

1775
01:29:52,604 --> 01:29:54,954
Hard core happy place.

1776
01:29:54,998 --> 01:29:56,869
You got to go hardcore happy.

1777
01:30:03,310 --> 01:30:05,225
I still like drawing him.

1778
01:30:05,269 --> 01:30:06,575
I go through waves, like,

1779
01:30:06,618 --> 01:30:09,578
I think last time
I talked to you, Arthur,

1780
01:30:09,621 --> 01:30:10,796
I was sick of him.

1781
01:30:10,840 --> 01:30:12,276
But now,
I like drawing him again.