1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:25,460 --> 00:00:27,462 [frogs croaking] 4 00:00:37,515 --> 00:00:39,517 [croaking continues] 5 00:00:45,175 --> 00:00:47,221 [somber music] 6 00:00:47,264 --> 00:00:48,265 [pen cap clicking] 7 00:00:50,093 --> 00:00:51,616 [pen rasping] 8 00:00:51,660 --> 00:00:53,662 [croaking] 9 00:00:58,623 --> 00:01:01,757 [Matt] I always first start with the eyeball like this, 10 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,455 and you gotta leave a little bit of space there for the goo. 11 00:01:06,022 --> 00:01:08,590 His little froggie eyelids. 12 00:01:10,505 --> 00:01:13,029 That looks like sex parts a little bit. 13 00:01:13,595 --> 00:01:15,205 [marker rasping] 14 00:01:15,249 --> 00:01:18,513 [Matt] I've just always been into drawing. 15 00:01:18,556 --> 00:01:22,082 And it takes tons of time to come up with a character 16 00:01:22,125 --> 00:01:25,476 that you like enough to draw over and over again. 17 00:01:27,957 --> 00:01:30,916 It's just been kind of a slow drip of frogs 18 00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:32,788 throughout my entire life. 19 00:01:32,831 --> 00:01:35,269 [Matt]It's just one little frog after another, 20 00:01:35,312 --> 00:01:36,661 after another, after another. 21 00:01:38,315 --> 00:01:39,969 And then eventually, it was Pepe. 22 00:01:44,365 --> 00:01:45,496 [birds chirping] 23 00:01:48,891 --> 00:01:50,632 [Matt] It's a happy little frog. 24 00:02:01,730 --> 00:02:04,298 [interviewer] What do people get wrong about drawing Pepe? 25 00:02:04,907 --> 00:02:07,301 [Matt] Um... 26 00:02:07,344 --> 00:02:10,826 Probably when they put Pepe on the Internet saying, like, 27 00:02:10,869 --> 00:02:13,089 "Kill Jews." 28 00:02:13,742 --> 00:02:16,875 [upbeat music] 29 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,184 Are you familiar with this meme called Pepe the Frog? 30 00:02:21,228 --> 00:02:22,881 [Stephen] Okay, so for those who don't, 31 00:02:22,925 --> 00:02:25,319 here's the thing. Here's Pepe the Frog, okay? 32 00:02:27,712 --> 00:02:29,932 Have you seen, you know, this frog meme? 33 00:02:29,975 --> 00:02:31,063 Uh, forgot the name of it. 34 00:02:33,501 --> 00:02:36,112 Many of you may remember Pepe the Frog who once... 35 00:02:38,941 --> 00:02:40,421 ♪ I saw a man today 36 00:02:40,464 --> 00:02:42,510 ♪ He led a big parade Downtown ♪ 37 00:02:44,816 --> 00:02:46,122 ♪ And the doctor came 38 00:02:46,166 --> 00:02:48,298 ♪ He stands aside Talking down ♪ 39 00:02:48,342 --> 00:02:49,821 ♪ Hey 40 00:02:49,865 --> 00:02:51,388 ♪ It sounds like 41 00:02:51,432 --> 00:02:54,043 I bet 90% of your viewers haven't heard of Pepe the Frog. 42 00:02:54,086 --> 00:02:56,219 [Trump Jr] I thought it was a frog in a wig. 43 00:02:56,263 --> 00:02:58,047 [woman #1] The white supremacist movement 44 00:02:58,090 --> 00:03:00,745 has taken over Pepe the Frog! 45 00:03:00,789 --> 00:03:02,312 ♪ 'Cause I've been really 46 00:03:02,356 --> 00:03:04,836 ♪ I've been in love with you 47 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,275 [overlapping dialogue] 48 00:03:11,278 --> 00:03:13,454 [mouse clicking] 49 00:03:14,150 --> 00:03:15,325 [beeping] 50 00:03:20,983 --> 00:03:23,551 [upbeat music] 51 00:03:27,859 --> 00:03:29,513 [screaming] 52 00:03:29,557 --> 00:03:32,342 ♪ I've been in love 53 00:03:32,386 --> 00:03:34,301 ♪ With you 54 00:03:34,344 --> 00:03:36,477 [screams] 55 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,479 ♪ I've been in love 56 00:03:38,522 --> 00:03:42,961 ♪ With you 57 00:03:52,014 --> 00:03:53,624 [girl panting] 58 00:03:53,668 --> 00:03:56,932 [footsteps rustling] 59 00:04:01,110 --> 00:04:02,677 [both chuckle] 60 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,374 [Matt] We're here in the community thrift store, 61 00:04:04,418 --> 00:04:06,420 and, uh, it all started here. 62 00:04:08,204 --> 00:04:09,945 Ooh, let's see what's back here. 63 00:04:12,861 --> 00:04:15,429 [Matt] I do get, like, waves of nostalgia 64 00:04:15,472 --> 00:04:18,388 for the youthful time in my 20s working here, 65 00:04:18,432 --> 00:04:19,911 just hanging out with my friends, and... 66 00:04:19,955 --> 00:04:21,609 just riding a bike around San Francisco. 67 00:04:22,349 --> 00:04:23,611 So... 68 00:04:23,654 --> 00:04:26,788 I basically just want to be young again. 69 00:04:29,530 --> 00:04:31,183 [man chuckles] Guess what. 70 00:04:32,663 --> 00:04:34,839 [Matt] This is my old office space here. 71 00:04:36,711 --> 00:04:40,105 It used to be the toy department. 72 00:04:40,149 --> 00:04:42,412 This is where I spent my days. 73 00:04:42,456 --> 00:04:44,936 -With... -[Elmo giggling] 74 00:04:44,980 --> 00:04:46,547 That tickles. 75 00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:47,591 ...guys like that. 76 00:04:51,116 --> 00:04:54,424 [Matt] I would have literally a mountain of toys every day, 77 00:04:54,468 --> 00:04:57,384 and it was just really inspiring. 78 00:04:57,427 --> 00:05:00,212 It's like working inside of a brain. 79 00:05:00,256 --> 00:05:03,868 If I got caught up with my work, I would just draw. 80 00:05:03,912 --> 00:05:05,827 Every day would be, like, new toys that would come in 81 00:05:05,870 --> 00:05:07,568 and I would draw them, and so... 82 00:05:07,611 --> 00:05:09,831 It was my ideal job situation. 83 00:05:12,399 --> 00:05:15,402 [Aiyana]Matt was always drawing that frog forever, I swear. 84 00:05:15,445 --> 00:05:17,621 That was his go-to thing to draw, 85 00:05:17,665 --> 00:05:21,495 so I've been seeing that frog's face... 86 00:05:21,538 --> 00:05:22,844 for as long as I've known Matt. 87 00:05:22,887 --> 00:05:24,411 [sneezes] 88 00:05:24,454 --> 00:05:27,065 -[Aiyana] Ew! -[giggles] 89 00:05:27,109 --> 00:05:29,154 -Ew! Ew, ew, ew. -Excuse you. 90 00:05:29,198 --> 00:05:30,982 [Aiyana giggles] 91 00:05:31,026 --> 00:05:32,419 [Matt] I mean, the first time I actually named him Pepe 92 00:05:32,462 --> 00:05:34,377 was for this comics that I did called Playtime. 93 00:05:36,118 --> 00:05:38,338 I was just messing around on Microsoft Paint 94 00:05:38,381 --> 00:05:40,557 and came up with Pepe and Brett. 95 00:05:41,297 --> 00:05:42,342 Two characters. 96 00:05:43,865 --> 00:05:47,042 They did things like go to raves and paint. 97 00:05:47,085 --> 00:05:48,609 [keyboard clacking] 98 00:05:48,652 --> 00:05:50,437 [Matt] It just kind of naturally developed. 99 00:05:52,134 --> 00:05:53,309 And then I just thought 100 00:05:53,353 --> 00:05:54,789 it would be fun to have four characters, 101 00:05:54,832 --> 00:05:56,747 kinda like the Ninja Turtles. 102 00:05:56,791 --> 00:05:59,881 [Matt] It became Boy's Club. 103 00:05:59,924 --> 00:06:03,754 A lot of the humor is kind of about post-college zone. 104 00:06:03,798 --> 00:06:05,800 You don't quite know what you're doing, 105 00:06:05,843 --> 00:06:07,976 but you like drinking and hanging out. 106 00:06:08,019 --> 00:06:10,108 The four characters were just reflections 107 00:06:10,152 --> 00:06:11,458 of my personality 108 00:06:11,501 --> 00:06:13,068 and the personality of my friends. 109 00:06:13,111 --> 00:06:15,070 Landwolf, the party dog, 110 00:06:15,113 --> 00:06:17,072 Andy was the jokester of the group, 111 00:06:17,115 --> 00:06:18,595 Brett liked to dance, 112 00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:20,292 and then Pepe the Frog was just kinda like 113 00:06:20,336 --> 00:06:21,642 the little brother of the group. 114 00:06:21,685 --> 00:06:23,600 [clicking, beeping] 115 00:06:26,821 --> 00:06:29,258 [Chris] The better I got to know Matt, 116 00:06:29,301 --> 00:06:32,653 the more, kind of, similarities I saw with him and Pepe. 117 00:06:34,524 --> 00:06:36,221 Even the way Pepe looks, 118 00:06:36,265 --> 00:06:38,789 like he kinda, like, looks like Matt a little bit. 119 00:06:41,009 --> 00:06:42,445 [chuckles] 120 00:06:42,489 --> 00:06:44,012 [Johnny] Matt was a little bit different 121 00:06:44,055 --> 00:06:46,971 from what most people would consider 122 00:06:47,015 --> 00:06:48,538 a typical cartoonist. 123 00:06:50,061 --> 00:06:51,280 I think it's more like this. 124 00:06:52,063 --> 00:06:54,022 Mm-hmm. [chuckles] 125 00:06:54,065 --> 00:06:57,112 Button down shirt, nerd glasses. 126 00:06:57,155 --> 00:06:59,375 [Johnny] He seem like he was, like, a cool guy. 127 00:07:00,071 --> 00:07:01,464 And Boy's Club, 128 00:07:01,508 --> 00:07:03,031 it's one of the funniest comics of, 129 00:07:03,074 --> 00:07:05,425 I don't know, the last ten years. 130 00:07:05,468 --> 00:07:08,253 What's happening here is Landwolf is passed out, 131 00:07:08,297 --> 00:07:09,994 but that's like how he passed out. 132 00:07:10,038 --> 00:07:11,909 Like, he didn't quite make it onto the bed. 133 00:07:11,953 --> 00:07:13,345 [Chris] I don't know why, I thought he was trying 134 00:07:13,389 --> 00:07:15,783 to jerk off and he passed out, like while he was... 135 00:07:15,826 --> 00:07:16,914 [Matt] Oh, I see. 136 00:07:17,567 --> 00:07:18,916 Yeah. 137 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,135 [Chris] I guess it's open for interpretation, huh? 138 00:07:20,178 --> 00:07:21,832 It is open for interpretation. 139 00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:23,834 Landwolf, I think he kind of represents 140 00:07:23,878 --> 00:07:26,881 the kind of hairy, gross roommate 141 00:07:26,924 --> 00:07:28,273 that you have sometimes. 142 00:07:28,317 --> 00:07:29,884 [Aiyana] Kinda clogging the drains. 143 00:07:29,927 --> 00:07:32,016 It just made me think of our actual roommate, Chris. 144 00:07:33,235 --> 00:07:34,758 Issues. 145 00:07:34,802 --> 00:07:36,151 [munching] 146 00:07:36,194 --> 00:07:37,805 [Matt] It's weird talking about these 147 00:07:37,848 --> 00:07:39,850 because they're meant to be read in the privacy of your own home. 148 00:07:39,894 --> 00:07:41,373 [Chris and Matt laughing] 149 00:07:41,417 --> 00:07:43,680 I never actually had to explain any of this shit. 150 00:07:43,724 --> 00:07:44,986 [Matt laughs] 151 00:07:46,553 --> 00:07:48,206 [Lisa] I met Matt at a comics convention 152 00:07:48,250 --> 00:07:49,991 where we're signing next to each other. 153 00:07:50,034 --> 00:07:51,514 I loved Matt's comics. 154 00:07:51,558 --> 00:07:52,863 I grew up with an older brother 155 00:07:52,907 --> 00:07:54,517 so I already had that sense of humor 156 00:07:54,561 --> 00:07:58,739 where I liked, you know, boner jokes and barf and farts. 157 00:07:58,782 --> 00:08:00,610 -[farts] -[beeps] 158 00:08:00,654 --> 00:08:02,525 [Lisa] To me, it felt very accessible. 159 00:08:02,569 --> 00:08:04,135 Like, it's the sort of masculinity 160 00:08:04,179 --> 00:08:05,441 where you can be in your underwear 161 00:08:05,485 --> 00:08:07,617 singing to Shania Twain. 162 00:08:07,661 --> 00:08:11,055 ♪ Oh, oh, oh, go totally crazy 163 00:08:11,099 --> 00:08:13,101 ♪ Forget I'm a lady 164 00:08:13,144 --> 00:08:14,537 ♪ Men's shirts, short skirts 165 00:08:14,581 --> 00:08:16,321 You know, when I watched Seinfeld, 166 00:08:16,365 --> 00:08:17,845 I liked Kramer the best. 167 00:08:17,888 --> 00:08:20,500 When I read Boy's Club, I liked Landwolf the best. 168 00:08:20,543 --> 00:08:22,763 [Emily]I guess Pepe's kind of more of an Elaine. 169 00:08:22,806 --> 00:08:24,068 -I mean... -[Lisa chuckles] 170 00:08:24,112 --> 00:08:26,375 [Emily] Elaine is great, but, uh... 171 00:08:26,418 --> 00:08:29,813 But yeah, if Elaine had become a symbol of the alt-right... 172 00:08:29,857 --> 00:08:31,206 [chuckles] I would be like, 173 00:08:31,249 --> 00:08:33,034 "Yeah, that's crazy. That shouldn't be the case." 174 00:08:35,123 --> 00:08:37,821 [Johnny] It seems incredibly random. 175 00:08:37,865 --> 00:08:39,040 People are like, 176 00:08:39,083 --> 00:08:40,998 "This is the character we're going to use 177 00:08:41,042 --> 00:08:42,565 for the Internet." 178 00:08:42,609 --> 00:08:44,262 Like, "This is going to be the mascot for the Internet." 179 00:08:46,134 --> 00:08:47,135 [camera shutter clicks] 180 00:08:51,531 --> 00:08:55,578 [Aiyana] One day, he was doing Boy's Club comics 181 00:08:55,622 --> 00:08:57,275 at my house. 182 00:08:57,319 --> 00:09:00,017 [Matt]I remember I was sitting on Aiyana's little love seat 183 00:09:00,061 --> 00:09:02,193 in her tiny ass apartment. 184 00:09:02,237 --> 00:09:03,238 [Aiyana] He said... 185 00:09:03,847 --> 00:09:05,370 "Can you... 186 00:09:05,414 --> 00:09:08,286 stand over there and bend over and, 187 00:09:08,330 --> 00:09:11,028 and kind of make it look like you're pulling your pants down 188 00:09:11,072 --> 00:09:13,944 while you're bending over so I can draw you?" 189 00:09:13,988 --> 00:09:15,990 You know, toilets are hard to draw. 190 00:09:16,033 --> 00:09:18,732 People pulling down their pants is hard to draw. 191 00:09:18,775 --> 00:09:20,037 So I kind of hunched over 192 00:09:20,081 --> 00:09:22,562 and pretended like I was pulling my pants down 193 00:09:22,605 --> 00:09:23,998 and he drew a little sketch. 194 00:09:25,347 --> 00:09:27,828 [Aiyana]It ended up being Pepe. 195 00:09:28,872 --> 00:09:30,744 So, that was my butt. 196 00:09:32,354 --> 00:09:33,529 And my toilet. 197 00:09:33,573 --> 00:09:35,792 -[trickling] -Ahh! 198 00:09:37,402 --> 00:09:39,491 [interviewer] So is Pepe's body based on Aiyana? 199 00:09:40,101 --> 00:09:41,406 [Matt] 200 00:09:41,450 --> 00:09:43,539 [chuckles] 201 00:09:43,583 --> 00:09:44,975 Whatever kind of weird stuff 202 00:09:45,019 --> 00:09:47,064 kinda stuck with me in childhood, 203 00:09:47,108 --> 00:09:49,501 sometimes it ends up in Boy's Club, like... 204 00:09:49,545 --> 00:09:52,243 [Matt] I remember when I was in second grade 205 00:09:52,287 --> 00:09:56,073 and I went to the bathroom alongside my cousin David. 206 00:09:56,117 --> 00:09:58,815 And he pulled his pants all the way down to go pee. 207 00:09:58,859 --> 00:10:01,601 Underwear and everything. 208 00:10:01,644 --> 00:10:04,212 [Matt] It seems like it would feel really good 209 00:10:04,255 --> 00:10:06,475 so I wanted to make a comic about that. 210 00:10:07,607 --> 00:10:08,999 Feels good, man. 211 00:10:11,436 --> 00:10:13,351 [Aiyana] That was the frame that... 212 00:10:13,395 --> 00:10:15,876 [chuckles] ...started it all. 213 00:10:18,356 --> 00:10:21,229 [whirring] 214 00:10:26,016 --> 00:10:27,148 [Matt] I just thought it was cool 215 00:10:27,191 --> 00:10:28,758 that I could just draw a comic, 216 00:10:28,802 --> 00:10:31,195 scan it in and put it on MySpace, 217 00:10:31,239 --> 00:10:33,720 and then people would see it instantly. 218 00:10:34,285 --> 00:10:36,113 [whirring] 219 00:10:38,246 --> 00:10:41,466 Back then, it was kind of newer territory and... 220 00:10:41,510 --> 00:10:43,251 and I liked the vibe of MySpace a lot. 221 00:10:43,294 --> 00:10:44,774 [Matt] It was like, um, you were inside 222 00:10:44,818 --> 00:10:46,515 somebody's locker room or something. 223 00:10:52,739 --> 00:10:56,351 At the time, I had some friends that, like, were into exercise. 224 00:10:56,394 --> 00:10:59,397 [Matt]And they found it online, like a before and after shot. 225 00:11:00,485 --> 00:11:02,009 It would say, "Feels good, man." 226 00:11:03,358 --> 00:11:04,751 I thought it was really weird. 227 00:11:04,794 --> 00:11:06,491 [Chris]A lot of weight lifters would be, like, 228 00:11:06,535 --> 00:11:08,493 "Oh, I just finished a great workout. 229 00:11:08,537 --> 00:11:09,712 Feels good, man." 230 00:11:11,627 --> 00:11:13,934 And I remember just thinking, like, 231 00:11:13,977 --> 00:11:15,936 "Oh, that can't be because of Pepe." 232 00:11:15,979 --> 00:11:19,330 [Chris] You know, it's just some random accident. 233 00:11:19,374 --> 00:11:21,202 [Aiyana] The catch phrase, "Feels good, man," 234 00:11:21,245 --> 00:11:22,682 started becoming more popular. 235 00:11:24,379 --> 00:11:26,424 It would be a photo of a cat or something 236 00:11:26,468 --> 00:11:28,296 and it would say, "Feels good, man." 237 00:11:28,339 --> 00:11:32,169 Or there was one version of it that said, "Feels Goodman," 238 00:11:32,213 --> 00:11:33,954 with John Goodman's face. 239 00:11:33,997 --> 00:11:36,347 It was pretty funny at the time. [chuckles] 240 00:11:41,657 --> 00:11:43,180 [Matt] When I would check my email, 241 00:11:43,224 --> 00:11:45,966 every so often, somebody would send me a link 242 00:11:46,009 --> 00:11:49,360 to a Pepe being in some kind of weird chat room 243 00:11:49,404 --> 00:11:50,840 or something like that. 244 00:11:50,884 --> 00:11:52,450 I remember specifically, 245 00:11:52,494 --> 00:11:54,365 my dad sent me a link to this kid 246 00:11:54,409 --> 00:11:55,802 who made a Pepe song. 247 00:11:55,845 --> 00:11:57,238 ♪ Hey, Pepe 248 00:11:57,281 --> 00:11:58,456 ♪ I heard you pull Your pants down ♪ 249 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:00,110 ♪ All the way to go pee 250 00:12:00,154 --> 00:12:03,070 - ♪ Could you show me? - ♪ Feels good, man 251 00:12:03,113 --> 00:12:04,985 ♪ Feels good, man 252 00:12:05,028 --> 00:12:07,204 And it was like this big nerdy thing. 253 00:12:08,684 --> 00:12:11,295 I was, like, kind of interested in it 254 00:12:11,339 --> 00:12:13,297 as an Internet phenomenon, 255 00:12:13,341 --> 00:12:15,299 but I didn't really think too much about it. 256 00:12:15,343 --> 00:12:17,824 I was just like, ha ha, whatever. 257 00:12:17,867 --> 00:12:19,608 [Johnny] When it started to snowball... 258 00:12:21,131 --> 00:12:24,874 and Matt didn't seem to mind, I was a little, like... 259 00:12:24,918 --> 00:12:27,224 "Well. I mean, that's weird." 260 00:12:27,268 --> 00:12:29,139 [Johnny] I said, "Sue them. Lawyer up." 261 00:12:30,662 --> 00:12:32,012 [Matt] Man, I'm like an artist 262 00:12:32,055 --> 00:12:34,405 so I don't like suing other artists. 263 00:12:34,449 --> 00:12:36,277 [Johnny]He's kind of just like, "Oh, yeah, man. 264 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,888 Just let them do what they want." 265 00:12:38,932 --> 00:12:40,977 Using Pepe as a meme. That's cool, you know. 266 00:12:41,412 --> 00:12:42,631 "Meme." 267 00:12:42,674 --> 00:12:44,807 I didn't even know what a meme was 268 00:12:44,851 --> 00:12:47,331 or I don't even still know if I'm saying that correctly, 269 00:12:47,375 --> 00:12:50,378 but it was through Pepe that I learned what a meme was. 270 00:12:51,988 --> 00:12:53,903 [calm music] 271 00:12:53,947 --> 00:12:55,383 [creaking] 272 00:13:00,127 --> 00:13:01,476 [birds chirping] 273 00:13:03,043 --> 00:13:04,696 [wind chimes tinkling] 274 00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:06,307 [Dr. Blackmore] It's hard to remember what I first thought 275 00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:07,699 when I saw Pepe the Frog. 276 00:13:07,743 --> 00:13:09,614 But I think I kind of imagined, like, 277 00:13:09,658 --> 00:13:13,314 in my student days, these guys hanging out with a... 278 00:13:13,357 --> 00:13:15,882 a spliff and having a nice time. 279 00:13:15,925 --> 00:13:18,319 And he was just rather sort of hopeless and sweet 280 00:13:18,362 --> 00:13:21,104 and I just thought, "Aw, mm." 281 00:13:21,148 --> 00:13:22,279 [Dr. Blackmore] Chick, chick, chick! 282 00:13:22,323 --> 00:13:23,933 Chickens, come on! 283 00:13:23,977 --> 00:13:25,413 [Dr. Blackmore] The whole idea of memes comes from 284 00:13:25,456 --> 00:13:29,069 Richard Dawkins' 1976 book, The Selfish Gene. 285 00:13:29,112 --> 00:13:30,548 Most of the book is about 286 00:13:30,592 --> 00:13:32,986 what he called "Universal Darwinism," 287 00:13:33,029 --> 00:13:36,511 which said all of biology is driven by genes, 288 00:13:36,554 --> 00:13:38,948 but culture is driven by memes. 289 00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:42,430 He said, look around you 290 00:13:42,473 --> 00:13:46,042 and you'll see floating about in the primeval soup of culture 291 00:13:46,086 --> 00:13:48,175 is information copied by imitation 292 00:13:48,218 --> 00:13:49,350 from person to person. 293 00:13:50,481 --> 00:13:52,309 So that would include chairs, 294 00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:54,529 trousers, 295 00:13:54,572 --> 00:13:56,009 hairstyles. 296 00:13:56,052 --> 00:13:58,489 All of these things are only here 297 00:13:58,533 --> 00:14:00,013 because humans have copied them 298 00:14:00,056 --> 00:14:02,580 and the ones around us are the winners 299 00:14:02,624 --> 00:14:04,756 in an evolutionary battle. 300 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,151 And then, gradually came the concept of Internet memes. 301 00:14:09,805 --> 00:14:12,286 [Dr. Blackmore] And people can easily see 302 00:14:12,329 --> 00:14:13,896 that process happening... 303 00:14:13,940 --> 00:14:14,897 with Pepe. 304 00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:22,296 Pepe is a wonderful example of a meme 305 00:14:22,339 --> 00:14:24,602 that escaped out there into the memosphere 306 00:14:26,256 --> 00:14:29,259 and suffered all the things you'd expect of a meme. 307 00:14:33,133 --> 00:14:35,831 [Dale] Pepe, it's just folds upon folds. 308 00:14:35,875 --> 00:14:37,789 Um... 309 00:14:37,833 --> 00:14:41,445 [Dale] The Pepe technique is to draw too many lines. 310 00:14:41,489 --> 00:14:44,274 There's another fold and then another fold. 311 00:14:44,318 --> 00:14:47,103 And, like, these... these, like, lumps. 312 00:14:47,147 --> 00:14:50,150 And he looks really cracked out, but that's the idea. 313 00:14:50,193 --> 00:14:52,979 It's like steering into that mistake. 314 00:14:53,022 --> 00:14:55,329 He also symbolizes steering into the mistake 315 00:14:55,372 --> 00:14:57,200 of staying in your mom's basement. 316 00:15:00,508 --> 00:15:03,554 [Dale] I saw Boy's Club around 2007 or so, 317 00:15:03,598 --> 00:15:04,947 kind of when he was first posting it 318 00:15:04,991 --> 00:15:06,557 on the Internet. 319 00:15:06,601 --> 00:15:08,777 Then it just kept appearing in message boards. 320 00:15:09,821 --> 00:15:10,910 "Feels good, man." 321 00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:13,956 In that little story, 322 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,612 he's owning the fact that he's this weird guy. 323 00:15:17,655 --> 00:15:19,440 That moment of owning your loserdom, 324 00:15:19,483 --> 00:15:21,703 like owning your weirdness, right? It's like... 325 00:15:21,746 --> 00:15:23,357 perfect 4chan ethics. 326 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:24,793 [keyboard clacking] 327 00:15:27,622 --> 00:15:29,015 [Dale] Christopher Poole. 328 00:15:29,058 --> 00:15:32,105 He was 14 years old, living with his mom, 329 00:15:32,148 --> 00:15:36,239 spending all his time indoors, on the Internet, and... 330 00:15:36,283 --> 00:15:39,895 He created this crazy monster in his basement. 331 00:15:39,939 --> 00:15:41,853 [Christopher] Now, over 7 million people are using it, 332 00:15:41,897 --> 00:15:44,552 contributing over 700,000 posts per day. 333 00:15:44,595 --> 00:15:48,034 And we've gone from 1 board to 48 boards. 334 00:15:48,077 --> 00:15:50,297 [suspenseful music] 335 00:15:52,299 --> 00:15:54,866 So 4chan, just the way that it functioned, 336 00:15:54,910 --> 00:15:58,870 was super conducive to creating memes. 337 00:15:58,914 --> 00:16:00,437 [Dale] The way 4chan works is that 338 00:16:00,481 --> 00:16:02,613 it's a Darwinian competition for attention. 339 00:16:02,657 --> 00:16:04,267 So you have a post. 340 00:16:04,311 --> 00:16:06,704 And if the post gets a lot of replies, 341 00:16:06,748 --> 00:16:08,271 it floats to the top. 342 00:16:08,315 --> 00:16:10,012 And if no one replies, it sinks to the bottom 343 00:16:10,056 --> 00:16:12,188 and quickly dies. 344 00:16:12,232 --> 00:16:14,277 It's a winning and losing system. 345 00:16:14,321 --> 00:16:15,539 And it's a lot like a video game. 346 00:16:17,150 --> 00:16:18,673 [Dale] There were all these adolescent boys 347 00:16:18,716 --> 00:16:20,849 trying to own each other in the competition. 348 00:16:22,155 --> 00:16:23,808 -And so it became this... -[whooping] 349 00:16:23,852 --> 00:16:26,594 [Dale] ...culture of saying the most offensive thing. 350 00:16:28,726 --> 00:16:33,340 And so, like, Pepe kind of melts into that community. 351 00:16:33,383 --> 00:16:34,906 And all of the stuff that just exploded 352 00:16:34,950 --> 00:16:36,647 out of the culture four or five years later 353 00:16:36,691 --> 00:16:39,085 were being invented there by all these clever people 354 00:16:39,128 --> 00:16:41,391 and they were all anonymous. 355 00:16:41,435 --> 00:16:44,133 [keyboard clacking] 356 00:16:46,918 --> 00:16:48,920 [classical music playing] 357 00:16:53,099 --> 00:16:57,190 [Pizza]On 4chan, you're talking to another text box 358 00:16:57,233 --> 00:16:59,931 so you're free to express those kind of secret ideas 359 00:16:59,975 --> 00:17:01,585 that people have 360 00:17:01,629 --> 00:17:03,065 that they don't feel comfortable expressing in real life. 361 00:17:07,939 --> 00:17:10,072 I posted Pepes all the time. 362 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:12,770 To not post Pepe would be strange 363 00:17:12,814 --> 00:17:15,425 because it's just... It's the meme. 364 00:17:16,122 --> 00:17:18,515 Post, send. Boom. 365 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:20,256 [Pizza] So there I am right there. 366 00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:24,173 It's hard to say why Pepe gained popularity so fast. 367 00:17:24,217 --> 00:17:28,264 You could say it was just an easily relatable image. 368 00:17:28,308 --> 00:17:31,354 I have my own collection. I have my reaction image folder 369 00:17:31,398 --> 00:17:33,748 filled with Pepe and all the derivatives. 370 00:17:36,446 --> 00:17:39,188 The term was like, "We feel alone together." 371 00:17:39,232 --> 00:17:40,668 [Dale]Um, that was their idea. 372 00:17:43,758 --> 00:17:47,066 As it ages, it just gets more desperate. 373 00:17:47,109 --> 00:17:50,112 They would describe themselves as NEET. 374 00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:54,116 NEET stands for Not in Education Employment or Training. 375 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,163 The idea was that they were trying to find a word 376 00:17:57,206 --> 00:17:59,208 that described their situation, 377 00:17:59,252 --> 00:18:02,037 for these sort of, like, masses of kids 378 00:18:02,081 --> 00:18:04,953 who are just unemployed or just kind of dropped out of life. 379 00:18:04,996 --> 00:18:07,347 I think the best thing would be to start with a job. 380 00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:09,131 -No. No! -[Dr. Phil] Yeah, absolutely. 381 00:18:09,175 --> 00:18:10,306 She needs a job. 382 00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:14,658 No! [sobbing] 383 00:18:14,702 --> 00:18:17,400 [Dale] So 4chan really comes to embody that culture 384 00:18:17,444 --> 00:18:19,968 of checking out and living in your mom's basement. 385 00:18:27,106 --> 00:18:29,673 It started in 2003 and still exists. 386 00:18:29,717 --> 00:18:32,198 So imagine people being on there ten years, 387 00:18:32,241 --> 00:18:33,938 like it becoming a lifestyle. 388 00:18:39,205 --> 00:18:41,381 [knife thudding] 389 00:18:53,088 --> 00:18:54,829 A lot of people are talking that they have 390 00:18:54,872 --> 00:18:57,788 super hot basement layers where they get to NEET it up. 391 00:18:57,832 --> 00:18:59,921 Well, I mean, basically, nobody's really touching my game 392 00:18:59,964 --> 00:19:01,227 right now, you know? So... 393 00:19:01,270 --> 00:19:03,968 Got the Primo couch bed 394 00:19:04,012 --> 00:19:06,188 and I just kick this shit all over the place 395 00:19:06,232 --> 00:19:07,755 because I just don't give a fuck about anything. 396 00:19:07,798 --> 00:19:08,799 And, uh... 397 00:19:09,844 --> 00:19:10,975 It's... it's a life. 398 00:19:13,195 --> 00:19:14,805 [chuckles] 399 00:19:14,849 --> 00:19:16,807 [Mills] I think I probably saw images of Pepe first 400 00:19:16,851 --> 00:19:19,723 on the fitness board of 4chan. 401 00:19:19,767 --> 00:19:22,073 You know, this frog was so prevalent. 402 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,122 What does Pepe mean to me? 403 00:19:28,297 --> 00:19:29,429 What does he mean to me? 404 00:19:32,214 --> 00:19:33,302 He's a frog. 405 00:19:36,262 --> 00:19:37,567 He's a sad frog. 406 00:19:39,265 --> 00:19:41,615 Sad frog. 407 00:19:41,658 --> 00:19:44,313 [Mills] Now on 4chan, the quote-unquote sad frog 408 00:19:44,357 --> 00:19:49,100 became the most popular image for displaying sadness. 409 00:19:49,144 --> 00:19:52,713 There were other images that would describe that feeling. 410 00:19:52,756 --> 00:19:55,368 [Mills] You have things like a picture of Keanu Reeves 411 00:19:55,411 --> 00:19:57,108 sitting on a bench. 412 00:19:57,152 --> 00:19:59,763 But maybe he's just deep in thought. 413 00:19:59,807 --> 00:20:01,417 [horse neighs] 414 00:20:01,461 --> 00:20:04,246 [Mills] That sad frog. You knew what it was about. 415 00:20:04,290 --> 00:20:05,856 Nothing else needed to be said there. 416 00:20:07,902 --> 00:20:09,686 Pepe the sad frog. 417 00:20:11,122 --> 00:20:12,254 Pepe. 418 00:20:12,298 --> 00:20:13,473 [woman #2] Pepe what? 419 00:20:13,516 --> 00:20:15,257 -The sad frog. -[woman #2] The sad frog? 420 00:20:15,301 --> 00:20:17,259 -Pepe the sad frog. -[woman #2] What's that? 421 00:20:17,303 --> 00:20:18,913 [EKG flatlining] 422 00:20:18,956 --> 00:20:20,871 You know, it wasn't something that's really circulated heavily 423 00:20:20,915 --> 00:20:21,959 on, like, Facebook 424 00:20:22,003 --> 00:20:23,831 or any of that stuff at the time. 425 00:20:23,874 --> 00:20:27,400 [Mills] Pepe just kinda felt like uniquely 4chan. 426 00:20:27,443 --> 00:20:28,749 [robotic man voice] Feels bad man. 427 00:20:28,792 --> 00:20:30,446 I didn't know about the Boy's Club comic 428 00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:31,534 or anything like that. 429 00:20:31,578 --> 00:20:33,928 I did not know who Matt Furie was. 430 00:20:33,971 --> 00:20:36,322 [Mills] Even after I learned about Boy's Club, 431 00:20:36,365 --> 00:20:38,324 I was like, "Oh, they're making a Pepe comic. 432 00:20:38,367 --> 00:20:39,629 Oh, that's cool." 433 00:20:45,592 --> 00:20:47,594 [upbeat music] 434 00:20:58,387 --> 00:21:00,433 [upbeat music continues] 435 00:21:01,869 --> 00:21:02,913 [chuckles] 436 00:21:11,792 --> 00:21:13,315 That's the story, um... 437 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,622 [Peder] It's about somewhere in the future. 438 00:21:15,665 --> 00:21:19,626 The mutants have taken over and they make new children. 439 00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:22,019 I like this style of gun. [laughs] 440 00:21:22,977 --> 00:21:25,022 Are you, uh... 441 00:21:25,066 --> 00:21:26,981 actually the guy that made... 442 00:21:27,024 --> 00:21:29,244 -that made Pepe? Yeah. -Yeah, yeah. 443 00:21:29,288 --> 00:21:30,376 [Matt chuckles] 444 00:21:30,419 --> 00:21:32,291 But it must suck for you that it, uh... 445 00:21:33,988 --> 00:21:35,206 That he has become, uh, 446 00:21:35,250 --> 00:21:37,731 that he become hijacked by... by 4chan. 447 00:21:37,774 --> 00:21:40,951 I mean, it definitely sucks, but, nothing's forever, right? 448 00:21:41,604 --> 00:21:42,605 [Matt chuckles] 449 00:21:44,694 --> 00:21:46,870 [Matt] I'm just a spectator to how things 450 00:21:46,914 --> 00:21:50,004 kinda mutate and evolve on the Internet. 451 00:21:50,047 --> 00:21:53,486 You kinda see everything as some big joke, 452 00:21:53,529 --> 00:21:57,141 but it's like kind of a window into this kinda like dark place. 453 00:21:58,186 --> 00:21:59,361 [shutter clicks] 454 00:21:59,405 --> 00:22:00,710 [indistinct chatter] 455 00:22:00,754 --> 00:22:02,973 [Matt] I'll draw you a little Pepe. 456 00:22:03,017 --> 00:22:05,236 [Matt] People on the Internet have their own characters 457 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,456 that Pepe was interacting with. 458 00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,502 There's one where he's interacting with this guy. 459 00:22:09,545 --> 00:22:11,460 I think his name is Wojack. 460 00:22:11,504 --> 00:22:13,897 [clanking] 461 00:22:13,941 --> 00:22:15,812 I would see pictures of Pepe, 462 00:22:15,856 --> 00:22:20,077 like, hugging this stark white sad looking guy. 463 00:22:20,121 --> 00:22:21,383 And I was like, "What is that?" 464 00:22:21,427 --> 00:22:24,343 [somber music] 465 00:22:24,386 --> 00:22:26,649 They call him, you know, The Feels Guy or... 466 00:22:26,693 --> 00:22:31,219 Wojack is the proper term. 467 00:22:31,262 --> 00:22:35,441 [Mills] He was for expressing an unpleasant feeling. 468 00:22:35,484 --> 00:22:37,617 I'd be sitting there and kinda be tense from anxiety 469 00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:38,705 kind of, like... [inhales sharply] 470 00:22:38,748 --> 00:22:39,967 You know, and being... like that. 471 00:22:40,010 --> 00:22:41,621 And I go on the board, I'd be like, "Okay. 472 00:22:41,664 --> 00:22:42,752 These are my people." 473 00:22:44,537 --> 00:22:46,147 [Mills]We're all over the world but we all have 474 00:22:46,190 --> 00:22:48,105 these feelings of anxiety and everything together 475 00:22:48,149 --> 00:22:49,846 and it's like a group therapy on the Internet. 476 00:22:52,458 --> 00:22:54,764 Even when I was at work, we had these security cameras. 477 00:22:54,808 --> 00:22:56,853 I would duck behind, like, a stack of crates 478 00:22:56,897 --> 00:22:59,465 and quick to be, like, "You dumb idiots." 479 00:22:59,508 --> 00:23:01,249 [Mills] Then I'd check, like, 10-15 minutes later, 480 00:23:01,292 --> 00:23:02,990 you know, to see who's replying to me, 481 00:23:03,033 --> 00:23:06,123 and I would face an onslaught of people just saying 482 00:23:06,167 --> 00:23:08,256 I was the most hideous man alive. 483 00:23:08,299 --> 00:23:10,084 I would, you know, wear that as a badge of honor. 484 00:23:10,127 --> 00:23:12,826 I'd be like, "Yes. I'm a true 4chan guy. 485 00:23:12,869 --> 00:23:15,959 I'm a true social reject. I'm a true freak. 486 00:23:16,003 --> 00:23:17,787 Yeah, you're darn tooting." 487 00:23:23,010 --> 00:23:25,534 I'm a latecomer to Pepe. 488 00:23:25,578 --> 00:23:27,580 Uh, probably because he's not my type. 489 00:23:27,623 --> 00:23:29,364 [laughs] 490 00:23:29,408 --> 00:23:33,412 [Dr. Aleks] I came to Pepe after he had gone dark. 491 00:23:35,501 --> 00:23:37,285 Pepe is a sad frog. 492 00:23:37,328 --> 00:23:40,027 He's never happy. He's just sort of miserable. 493 00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:41,985 [thunder crashing] 494 00:23:45,772 --> 00:23:48,862 And I think, for a huge population, 495 00:23:48,905 --> 00:23:51,342 online and offline, we're not really allowed 496 00:23:51,386 --> 00:23:54,258 to express sorrow or sadness or grief. 497 00:23:54,302 --> 00:23:57,784 And this sad little frog arrives online 498 00:23:57,827 --> 00:24:02,049 in the midst of the push to commodify the Internet. 499 00:24:03,703 --> 00:24:05,269 [Dr. Aleks] What was going on at that point 500 00:24:05,313 --> 00:24:07,837 was that everybody was super damn positive. 501 00:24:07,881 --> 00:24:10,971 The people were suddenly able to make cash money 502 00:24:11,014 --> 00:24:12,886 out of their image 503 00:24:12,929 --> 00:24:15,584 which meant that they had to be, like, totally rad, 504 00:24:15,628 --> 00:24:19,327 happy, fitspo, my best-self thing. 505 00:24:19,370 --> 00:24:23,287 And in drops Pepe... ripe for the taking. 506 00:24:23,331 --> 00:24:24,854 Hey, guys. It's me, Lily. 507 00:24:24,898 --> 00:24:27,335 [upbeat music] 508 00:24:27,378 --> 00:24:30,817 Today I'm going to be doing a Pepe transformation. 509 00:24:35,517 --> 00:24:38,825 Pepe starts to percolate into another population. 510 00:24:38,868 --> 00:24:41,958 We've got a lot more women, a lot more girls. 511 00:24:42,002 --> 00:24:43,699 [Dr. Aleks] They were sharing their own Pepe. 512 00:24:45,222 --> 00:24:47,877 Hey, guys. I just googled what a meme was 513 00:24:47,921 --> 00:24:51,359 and I think I'm in love with memes! 514 00:24:51,402 --> 00:24:54,101 Pepe... is the best. 515 00:24:54,797 --> 00:24:56,364 You draw the head, 516 00:24:57,539 --> 00:25:01,151 which is just like a butt. 517 00:25:01,195 --> 00:25:04,720 [Mills] Things begin to spiral really out of control. 518 00:25:04,764 --> 00:25:09,464 A couple of celebrities, Nicki Minaj and Katy Perry, 519 00:25:09,508 --> 00:25:12,815 they had posted on Instagram a couple of Pepe images. 520 00:25:14,687 --> 00:25:16,471 [airplane whooshing] 521 00:25:19,387 --> 00:25:20,606 [Mills]A lot of people see it for the first time. 522 00:25:20,649 --> 00:25:21,911 They wonder, "Who is this frog? 523 00:25:21,955 --> 00:25:23,434 What is this frog? What is this?" 524 00:25:23,478 --> 00:25:25,306 I want to see some more of that. 525 00:25:25,349 --> 00:25:29,528 They start making, like, a migration over to 4chan. 526 00:25:29,571 --> 00:25:31,399 [Mills] Young women in particular, 527 00:25:31,442 --> 00:25:35,185 downloading Pepe images , using them for their own likes. 528 00:25:35,229 --> 00:25:37,100 And that was seen as... 529 00:25:37,144 --> 00:25:38,188 despicable. 530 00:25:38,232 --> 00:25:40,277 I love Pepe so much. 531 00:25:40,321 --> 00:25:42,541 The true Pepe is this Pepe. 532 00:25:42,584 --> 00:25:45,021 [girl #1]Pepe has green skin. It's so beautiful. 533 00:25:45,065 --> 00:25:46,936 It's different from frog. 534 00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:49,199 Pepe green is special green. 535 00:25:49,243 --> 00:25:51,288 [eerie music] 536 00:25:51,332 --> 00:25:53,464 [Mills] It seemed to me, like, invasion. 537 00:25:53,508 --> 00:25:55,336 You had people that would come on and say, 538 00:25:55,379 --> 00:25:57,425 "Why are all you virgin losers here?" 539 00:25:57,468 --> 00:25:58,818 You know, "Where's the Pepe pictures at? 540 00:25:58,861 --> 00:25:59,906 Where are they at?" 541 00:25:59,949 --> 00:26:01,690 [girl #2] I strive to be Pepe. 542 00:26:03,387 --> 00:26:05,868 Just kidding. 543 00:26:05,912 --> 00:26:08,697 I hate Pepe the Frog. 544 00:26:08,741 --> 00:26:10,481 Pe... whatever his name is. 545 00:26:10,525 --> 00:26:11,831 Peep, Pepe. 546 00:26:11,874 --> 00:26:14,834 Either way, he's stupid. 547 00:26:14,877 --> 00:26:18,446 And I don't really know why I made my face green 548 00:26:18,489 --> 00:26:20,622 to prove the point that I hate Pepe. 549 00:26:20,666 --> 00:26:22,972 But let me prove it by saying, 550 00:26:23,016 --> 00:26:24,583 "I hate you, Pepe." 551 00:26:24,626 --> 00:26:26,759 I'm going to chop your head off. 552 00:26:26,802 --> 00:26:27,934 Your little... 553 00:26:27,977 --> 00:26:31,720 Your little froggie head off like this. 554 00:26:31,764 --> 00:26:33,853 It was serious to a lot of people, like, 555 00:26:33,896 --> 00:26:36,203 "This is the symbol of our culture." 556 00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:41,382 [Mills] And it really was turning into a total Pepe Fest. 557 00:26:53,176 --> 00:26:56,310 [Matt] Ooh, nice. 558 00:26:56,353 --> 00:26:59,792 [Matt] Pepe was just really turning into a thing and, um... 559 00:26:59,835 --> 00:27:01,489 my buddy Skinner was, like, 560 00:27:01,532 --> 00:27:03,883 "Hey you should do a clothing line." 561 00:27:05,188 --> 00:27:07,277 [fanfare music] 562 00:27:09,758 --> 00:27:12,500 [camera shutter clicking] 563 00:27:12,543 --> 00:27:15,634 Yeah, it was just kinda funny to make something official 564 00:27:15,677 --> 00:27:18,549 out of something that's so, kind of, like... 565 00:27:18,593 --> 00:27:20,073 bootlegged on the Internet. 566 00:27:22,858 --> 00:27:24,425 I drew all these... 567 00:27:24,468 --> 00:27:27,428 goofy-ass Pepes that were kinda based on... 568 00:27:27,471 --> 00:27:30,823 just whatever random nonsense was out there on the Internet. 569 00:27:30,866 --> 00:27:33,303 I like this one with the little cigarette. 570 00:27:33,347 --> 00:27:35,784 [Matt] This one's particularly weird. 571 00:27:35,828 --> 00:27:38,395 And this one is just... [blows raspberry] 572 00:27:38,439 --> 00:27:41,355 I like that. That's a very stripped down Pepe. 573 00:27:41,398 --> 00:27:44,358 The sad frog golf shirt. 574 00:27:44,401 --> 00:27:46,665 You can have a pasta meal with your family 575 00:27:46,708 --> 00:27:47,709 wearing this one. 576 00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:53,106 Pepe was, like, a famous meme. 577 00:27:53,149 --> 00:27:56,022 [Chris] And my friend, Jay, he got a tattoo gun. 578 00:27:56,065 --> 00:27:58,328 He just had it set up in his kitchen. 579 00:27:58,372 --> 00:28:00,200 And so one night, 580 00:28:00,243 --> 00:28:02,028 I think it was just completely spontaneous. 581 00:28:02,071 --> 00:28:05,422 We're just like, "Oh, let's get Pepe tattoos." 582 00:28:05,466 --> 00:28:08,643 It's like very little thought goes into this at all, you know. 583 00:28:08,687 --> 00:28:09,688 [chuckles] 584 00:28:11,124 --> 00:28:12,299 [Chris] We just thought it was funny 585 00:28:12,342 --> 00:28:13,779 to have a Pepe tattoo 586 00:28:13,822 --> 00:28:15,781 and Matt was there so it was like a tribute 587 00:28:15,824 --> 00:28:17,260 to my friend. 588 00:28:17,304 --> 00:28:18,522 I didn't know at the time 589 00:28:18,566 --> 00:28:21,482 but I got it, like, below my sleeve here. 590 00:28:21,525 --> 00:28:24,572 [Chris] That would kind of, uh, come back to bite me. 591 00:28:25,791 --> 00:28:28,750 As the Pepe defense was building 592 00:28:28,794 --> 00:28:31,448 to try and steer people away from using Pepe 593 00:28:31,492 --> 00:28:34,756 for their own, you know, normie usage... 594 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,587 that spawned a lot of angry, raging Pepes. 595 00:28:39,630 --> 00:28:41,763 But then, that fateful day occurred 596 00:28:41,807 --> 00:28:46,246 where there was a YouTube video of screaming frogs. 597 00:28:46,289 --> 00:28:48,204 [man #1] Say something for the camera. 598 00:28:48,248 --> 00:28:50,903 Look at the thing blow up like a balloon. 599 00:28:50,946 --> 00:28:53,122 [squeaky scream] 600 00:28:57,431 --> 00:29:00,390 [scream continues] 601 00:29:00,434 --> 00:29:02,610 [Mills] They have a high pitched scream 602 00:29:02,653 --> 00:29:03,916 which sounded a lot like... 603 00:29:03,959 --> 00:29:06,875 -[imitates frog scream] -[squeaky scream] 604 00:29:10,923 --> 00:29:12,925 [Mills] And it became like this battle cry. 605 00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:18,408 [screaming] 606 00:29:18,452 --> 00:29:19,888 [Mills]There would be somebody who would be coming in 607 00:29:19,932 --> 00:29:22,064 from Instagram. 608 00:29:22,108 --> 00:29:24,850 Sort of out themselves, maybe a sex-haver 609 00:29:24,893 --> 00:29:26,503 or a woman. 610 00:29:26,547 --> 00:29:30,072 A neurotypical, socially well-adjusted person. 611 00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:33,075 Once you kinda get that seed planted in the head of, like, 612 00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:35,861 you know, the popular kids and look... 613 00:29:35,904 --> 00:29:37,123 look how they're living, 614 00:29:37,166 --> 00:29:38,777 then look at you, you know. You're this... 615 00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:40,735 You're this... slug. 616 00:29:40,779 --> 00:29:42,215 [Mills] All you normies have been bullying us 617 00:29:42,258 --> 00:29:43,738 our whole lives. 618 00:29:43,782 --> 00:29:45,827 I'll never be one of you disgusting normies. 619 00:29:45,871 --> 00:29:48,874 Fuck... normies. 620 00:29:48,917 --> 00:29:51,006 [suspenseful music] 621 00:29:51,050 --> 00:29:53,530 [screaming] 622 00:29:55,794 --> 00:29:57,796 [eerie music] 623 00:30:01,712 --> 00:30:04,063 You know, these were a group of disempowered men 624 00:30:04,106 --> 00:30:06,195 who had retreated into fantasy worlds. 625 00:30:06,239 --> 00:30:07,849 [growling] 626 00:30:07,893 --> 00:30:10,678 [Dale]That was their last place of retreat, in a sense. 627 00:30:10,721 --> 00:30:14,725 And so, having women there was what they didn't want 628 00:30:14,769 --> 00:30:17,467 because that was a symbol of their defeat in real life. 629 00:30:26,433 --> 00:30:27,434 Ursula. 630 00:30:28,478 --> 00:30:29,828 Hey. 631 00:30:29,871 --> 00:30:32,265 -Is that Twilight Sparkle? -Mm-hmm! 632 00:30:32,308 --> 00:30:34,136 -Is that her name? -Yeah! 633 00:30:34,180 --> 00:30:37,226 She's like, "Ursula, I'm going to help you." 634 00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:39,620 [Ursula] Aw! 635 00:30:39,663 --> 00:30:41,404 -Okay. -That's so cute. 636 00:30:41,448 --> 00:30:44,233 That one says, "A pocket mouse sleeps... 637 00:30:44,277 --> 00:30:46,279 -safely it in its nest." -That's so cute. 638 00:30:46,322 --> 00:30:47,976 -It's a little mouse. -Oh. 639 00:30:50,761 --> 00:30:52,502 [Matt] People would just email me 640 00:30:52,546 --> 00:30:55,027 fucked up pictures of Pepe 641 00:30:55,070 --> 00:30:57,464 and it didn't really shock me. 642 00:30:57,507 --> 00:31:00,728 I'd be more shocked by, you know, people actually... 643 00:31:00,771 --> 00:31:03,905 expressing some form of cuteness or love 644 00:31:03,949 --> 00:31:07,039 like this other stuff is just... It's just garbage. 645 00:31:08,823 --> 00:31:10,303 [Matt] I think the weird thing 646 00:31:10,346 --> 00:31:12,131 about American culture in general is, like, 647 00:31:12,174 --> 00:31:14,220 we do kinda celebrate garbage 648 00:31:14,263 --> 00:31:17,092 and we also produce a hell of a lot of physical garbage. 649 00:31:17,136 --> 00:31:18,267 So it's just like... 650 00:31:19,529 --> 00:31:20,879 fucking garbage world. 651 00:31:32,194 --> 00:31:33,500 [Matt] I was definitely conscious 652 00:31:33,543 --> 00:31:35,154 of not wanting to be remembered 653 00:31:35,197 --> 00:31:37,721 as the artist that did Boy's Club. 654 00:31:37,765 --> 00:31:41,160 So I just wanted to keep doing other stuff. 655 00:31:41,203 --> 00:31:43,640 There's no connection between this frog and Pepe 656 00:31:43,684 --> 00:31:46,295 other than they kinda look like one another. 657 00:31:46,339 --> 00:31:50,473 But this is just another frog in a different place. 658 00:31:52,606 --> 00:31:54,347 [Matt] I decided to do a whole kids book 659 00:31:54,390 --> 00:31:57,132 that was totally wordless. 660 00:31:57,176 --> 00:32:01,049 It follows the life of this frog and his pet rat... 661 00:32:01,093 --> 00:32:02,921 living in a little mushroom house. 662 00:32:02,964 --> 00:32:05,097 They travel on the back of a bike. 663 00:32:07,577 --> 00:32:10,015 [Matt]They wake up at nighttime and go exploring. 664 00:32:10,841 --> 00:32:12,626 Okay, look at me. 665 00:32:12,669 --> 00:32:14,106 [Matt] Through the forest 666 00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:17,022 then they end up surfing on some dolphins, 667 00:32:17,065 --> 00:32:18,806 and swimming and going underground. 668 00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:21,200 I just really went 669 00:32:21,243 --> 00:32:23,680 for the childlike wonder with this one. 670 00:32:30,165 --> 00:32:31,601 [bicycle bell ringing] 671 00:32:34,126 --> 00:32:35,475 [Brian] The Night Riders. 672 00:32:35,518 --> 00:32:37,477 It's a work of highly skilled craftsmanship. 673 00:32:39,087 --> 00:32:40,654 It took him almost a year to make it. 674 00:32:42,438 --> 00:32:44,875 I told him, you know, I saw that he had that in him. 675 00:32:44,919 --> 00:32:46,399 He had a Where the Wild Things Are 676 00:32:46,442 --> 00:32:48,575 in him, I just knew it. 677 00:32:48,618 --> 00:32:50,055 We were working on The Night Riders 678 00:32:50,098 --> 00:32:53,797 before all this insane Pepe stuff started to happen. 679 00:32:53,841 --> 00:32:55,669 [Brian] Pepe's really just the tip of the iceberg 680 00:32:55,712 --> 00:33:00,152 for the kind of art that Matt's capable of making. 681 00:33:00,195 --> 00:33:02,458 [Brian] How come the dragon doesn't have wings? 682 00:33:02,502 --> 00:33:03,982 [Matt] It's more of a land dragon, 683 00:33:04,025 --> 00:33:06,071 than a dragon of the air or a dragon of the sea. 684 00:33:06,114 --> 00:33:08,290 So he's... He's a land dragon. 685 00:33:10,162 --> 00:33:12,077 [Brian] The characters are of different species, 686 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,036 but they seem like friends from the neighborhood. 687 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,777 We can tell they love each other 688 00:33:16,820 --> 00:33:19,562 and the book is built toward 689 00:33:19,606 --> 00:33:23,436 a bunch of nocturnal animals experiencing a sunrise. 690 00:33:23,479 --> 00:33:25,481 [seagulls squawking] 691 00:33:28,702 --> 00:33:29,964 The end. 692 00:33:31,444 --> 00:33:33,446 [crickets chirping] 693 00:33:36,101 --> 00:33:38,581 [Dale] Pepe had escaped and he was roaming around. 694 00:33:40,105 --> 00:33:41,671 And, like, it was fun for a while. 695 00:33:41,715 --> 00:33:42,759 [chuckles] 696 00:33:42,803 --> 00:33:44,500 [Dale] Um, until, uh... 697 00:33:44,544 --> 00:33:45,675 -[rattles] -[shatters] 698 00:33:45,719 --> 00:33:47,286 [Dale] ...it wasn't anymore. [laughs] 699 00:33:48,548 --> 00:33:49,592 And on 4chan... 700 00:33:50,506 --> 00:33:51,942 whenever they thought 701 00:33:51,986 --> 00:33:54,380 quote-unquote normies, sort of outsiders or other sites 702 00:33:54,423 --> 00:33:55,903 were stealing their memes, 703 00:33:55,946 --> 00:33:58,906 they would try to make them as offensive as possible. 704 00:33:58,949 --> 00:34:01,300 [Dale] It's like a classic punk response. 705 00:34:01,343 --> 00:34:03,302 Literally armored like a punk, right? 706 00:34:03,345 --> 00:34:04,564 And they're like, "It's so offensive, I... 707 00:34:04,607 --> 00:34:05,913 It can't be co-opted." 708 00:34:08,524 --> 00:34:11,440 [Dale]So they put him next to the Trade Towers disintegrating. 709 00:34:11,484 --> 00:34:15,140 They put swastikas all over him and Nazified Pepe. 710 00:34:15,183 --> 00:34:17,098 And it sort of snowballs. 711 00:34:17,142 --> 00:34:20,101 Back then, it was just the most offensive thing you could do. 712 00:34:20,145 --> 00:34:22,147 But it now reads as a weird prologue 713 00:34:22,190 --> 00:34:24,584 to when the irony kind of melted away. 714 00:34:27,978 --> 00:34:29,980 There are people on these platforms who believe 715 00:34:30,024 --> 00:34:33,549 that because you've couched your intention in a joke, 716 00:34:33,593 --> 00:34:35,464 that you can disavow it when people come asking. 717 00:34:35,508 --> 00:34:37,510 That's right. That's exactly right. 718 00:34:37,553 --> 00:34:39,947 So you create this ambiguity so there's no way for you 719 00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:41,296 to mean what you really mean ever. 720 00:34:41,340 --> 00:34:43,255 Yeah. 721 00:34:43,298 --> 00:34:45,474 I think what's appealing about Pepe 722 00:34:45,518 --> 00:34:48,303 is that he combines this impossible mixture 723 00:34:48,347 --> 00:34:50,218 of innocence and evil. 724 00:34:50,262 --> 00:34:53,091 [Joel] Like he has this kind of knowing smile 725 00:34:53,134 --> 00:34:56,746 while he's performing acts that are really atrocious. 726 00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:58,922 It sort of fulfills the idea 727 00:34:58,966 --> 00:35:01,708 that we can say these terrible things 728 00:35:01,751 --> 00:35:04,624 and just mean them as jokes all the time. 729 00:35:04,667 --> 00:35:06,321 They're always just jokes all the time 730 00:35:06,365 --> 00:35:08,932 and you can't prove otherwise. 731 00:35:08,976 --> 00:35:10,630 [Joel] We're just a bunch of kids in our underwear. 732 00:35:10,673 --> 00:35:13,459 It's harmless. No one really means it. 733 00:35:13,502 --> 00:35:16,288 The problem, I think, is that it's really demonstrable 734 00:35:16,331 --> 00:35:20,596 in the worst cases that this isn't funny. 735 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,424 You know, it's not funny when people die. 736 00:35:22,468 --> 00:35:23,512 [sirens blaring] 737 00:35:23,556 --> 00:35:25,253 [woman on radio] CPR in progress. 738 00:35:25,297 --> 00:35:27,647 [man on radio] Okay, we got another gunshot victim at... 739 00:35:27,690 --> 00:35:29,649 Shots fired! Shots fired! 740 00:35:29,692 --> 00:35:32,130 A black car pulls up and stops 741 00:35:32,173 --> 00:35:33,261 and he rolls down the window... 742 00:35:33,305 --> 00:35:34,741 I just saw four gunshots. 743 00:35:34,784 --> 00:35:36,264 [reporter #1] A Friday night rampage 744 00:35:36,308 --> 00:35:38,440 in this bustling college town 745 00:35:38,484 --> 00:35:41,226 after two gun battles with police and a chase, 746 00:35:41,269 --> 00:35:42,575 seven people were dead. 747 00:35:42,618 --> 00:35:44,054 Twenty-two year old Elliott Rodger 748 00:35:44,098 --> 00:35:45,665 believed to be the gunman. 749 00:35:45,708 --> 00:35:47,580 Tonight investigators are pouring over videos 750 00:35:47,623 --> 00:35:49,234 Rodger posted online. 751 00:35:49,277 --> 00:35:51,061 There was sort of this intense 752 00:35:51,105 --> 00:35:53,194 pain that you could see where he was 753 00:35:53,238 --> 00:35:54,848 really divorced from reality. 754 00:35:54,891 --> 00:35:57,155 [Dale] Like he did the shooting spree in a car, 755 00:35:57,198 --> 00:35:59,026 a fancy car his parents had bought for him 756 00:35:59,069 --> 00:36:01,202 to boost his confidence. 757 00:36:01,246 --> 00:36:02,725 [neighbor] He didn't even make an effort. 758 00:36:02,769 --> 00:36:05,554 Didn't talk to anybody. And he was so closed off 759 00:36:05,598 --> 00:36:07,426 and it was like when he was sitting there, 760 00:36:07,469 --> 00:36:09,819 you can just tell he's just thinking these thoughts 761 00:36:09,863 --> 00:36:12,387 in his head the entire time. He's just talking to himself. 762 00:36:14,128 --> 00:36:16,957 [Mills] I came on to 4chan that day. 763 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,568 People in this environment were starting to get whipped up 764 00:36:19,612 --> 00:36:20,961 and they're like, "Yeah, that's right. 765 00:36:21,004 --> 00:36:22,049 You showed him who's boss." 766 00:36:22,092 --> 00:36:23,529 You know, he, he went out there. 767 00:36:23,572 --> 00:36:27,097 He stood up for being, you know, the virgin with rage. 768 00:36:27,141 --> 00:36:30,231 The very first picture of Elliott Rodger that I saved 769 00:36:30,275 --> 00:36:32,277 was a picture of this sort of 770 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,236 semi-transparent sobbing woman, 771 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,500 and then like three or four Pepes with guns. 772 00:36:38,544 --> 00:36:39,849 It was like one of the very first ones 773 00:36:39,893 --> 00:36:42,112 that like took Elliott and put it into like a, 774 00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:43,766 sort of like a context. 775 00:36:43,810 --> 00:36:45,507 [Mills] People started drawing Pepes 776 00:36:45,551 --> 00:36:48,771 riding around in BMWs with Elliot Rodger. 777 00:36:48,815 --> 00:36:50,730 Yeah, I kind of get a little bit energized by it, you know. 778 00:36:50,773 --> 00:36:52,166 And it was kind of this, like, 779 00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:53,776 maybe society does need to get flipped on its head. 780 00:36:53,820 --> 00:36:56,605 -[static] -[radio playing] 781 00:36:59,260 --> 00:37:01,219 [upbeat music] 782 00:37:04,613 --> 00:37:07,181 Hi, Elliot Rodger. 783 00:37:08,661 --> 00:37:10,140 [Mills] I don't condone violence, you know. 784 00:37:10,184 --> 00:37:11,751 I'm not a violence condoner. 785 00:37:11,794 --> 00:37:14,057 But, he set me off into the path 786 00:37:14,101 --> 00:37:16,103 that made me who I am today, 787 00:37:16,146 --> 00:37:17,713 and I have to acknowledge that. 788 00:37:17,757 --> 00:37:19,759 [tense music] 789 00:37:21,587 --> 00:37:24,024 -[buzzing] -[heavy breathing] 790 00:37:24,067 --> 00:37:28,158 On 4chan, you see something totally new called the... 791 00:37:28,202 --> 00:37:30,770 [inhales deeply] uh, Beta Male Uprising, 792 00:37:30,813 --> 00:37:32,772 the Beta Uprising. 793 00:37:32,815 --> 00:37:34,295 -[mouse click] -[Dale]The idea would be that, 794 00:37:34,339 --> 00:37:36,166 all of them would 795 00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:37,864 run out of their mom's basements 796 00:37:37,907 --> 00:37:40,214 and start shooting people. 797 00:37:40,258 --> 00:37:42,912 [suspenseful music] 798 00:37:42,956 --> 00:37:45,654 And of course, like, it's a way of making fun of themselves. 799 00:37:45,698 --> 00:37:47,482 It's always coded in guarded irony. 800 00:37:47,526 --> 00:37:49,789 But of course, behind the irony is the seriousness. 801 00:37:49,832 --> 00:37:51,225 Why are you talking about that? 802 00:37:51,269 --> 00:37:52,835 It's because that's an issue that resonates with you. 803 00:37:54,315 --> 00:37:55,882 [computerized voice] Uprise. 804 00:37:55,925 --> 00:37:58,145 Welcome to your demise. 805 00:37:58,188 --> 00:37:59,842 [Dale] Pepe then becomes the symbol. 806 00:37:59,886 --> 00:38:01,888 You see him holding the gun. 807 00:38:01,931 --> 00:38:03,890 It's the classic response from 4chan, 808 00:38:03,933 --> 00:38:05,370 which is like the most nihilistic 809 00:38:05,413 --> 00:38:06,980 and despairing, cynical right 810 00:38:07,023 --> 00:38:08,808 where anyone wants to kill themselves 811 00:38:08,851 --> 00:38:11,506 or do something awful, or do something anti-social, 812 00:38:11,550 --> 00:38:14,640 making that screen illusion real in some way. 813 00:38:14,683 --> 00:38:16,859 Um, they're like, "Yeah. Go for it." 814 00:38:16,903 --> 00:38:18,600 [male anchor #1] Philadelphia area colleges 815 00:38:18,644 --> 00:38:21,516 have all warned students to be extra cautious tomorrow 816 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,214 This is the threat that was posted on 4chan, 817 00:38:24,258 --> 00:38:27,087 a message board where everyone is anonymous. 818 00:38:27,130 --> 00:38:28,828 It was posted last Friday, 819 00:38:28,871 --> 00:38:31,047 the day after the shooting in Oregon. 820 00:38:31,091 --> 00:38:32,527 It phrases the gunman 821 00:38:32,571 --> 00:38:35,225 as a fellow member of the Beta Rebellion. 822 00:38:35,269 --> 00:38:36,792 The post on 4chan 823 00:38:36,836 --> 00:38:38,881 uses a profile picture of what appears to be 824 00:38:38,925 --> 00:38:41,449 the Grinch in a mask, holding a gun. 825 00:38:41,493 --> 00:38:43,451 That same picture was used in a post 826 00:38:43,495 --> 00:38:45,540 the day before the Oregon massacre. 827 00:38:47,020 --> 00:38:48,282 [Finkelstein] You see, it's not just 828 00:38:48,326 --> 00:38:50,632 the memes generate the violence. 829 00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:53,766 It's that the violence becomes a meme. 830 00:38:53,809 --> 00:38:55,942 But, it's just a joke. 831 00:38:55,985 --> 00:38:58,074 Right? It's just a stupid frog. 832 00:39:00,816 --> 00:39:03,341 [Mills] If you had had a victory over the normies, 833 00:39:03,384 --> 00:39:05,952 you know, striking back at the oppressors, 834 00:39:05,995 --> 00:39:09,651 it was seen as too enthusiastic to post like a big, you know... 835 00:39:09,695 --> 00:39:11,349 grinning, laughing, you know, ha-ha-ha. 836 00:39:11,392 --> 00:39:13,481 [suspenseful music] 837 00:39:13,525 --> 00:39:17,398 So when this smug Pepe came out, it was groundbreaking. 838 00:39:17,442 --> 00:39:20,096 Like in a way that is maybe hard to explain. 839 00:39:21,576 --> 00:39:24,100 It was the most succinct, 840 00:39:24,144 --> 00:39:26,015 perfect face. 841 00:39:26,059 --> 00:39:28,757 Then the, uh, you know, the, the hand up. 842 00:39:28,801 --> 00:39:30,542 It had the perfect 843 00:39:30,585 --> 00:39:32,500 silly look to it. 844 00:39:32,544 --> 00:39:34,633 You know, crude... 845 00:39:34,676 --> 00:39:36,286 like holding back laughter, 846 00:39:36,330 --> 00:39:39,377 but enjoying the suffering of others. 847 00:39:39,420 --> 00:39:41,988 It was like the perfect trolling accessory. 848 00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:44,730 The way he's redrawn 849 00:39:44,773 --> 00:39:47,428 with his like thumb up like this, like really smug... 850 00:39:47,472 --> 00:39:49,474 -[Lisa] Yeah. -It's like... 851 00:39:49,517 --> 00:39:51,476 that tone is so ugly. 852 00:39:53,129 --> 00:39:54,827 It's used to imply like... 853 00:39:56,132 --> 00:39:57,395 being above 854 00:39:57,438 --> 00:39:59,266 a conversation that people are trying to have 855 00:39:59,309 --> 00:40:01,007 about kindness. 856 00:40:02,791 --> 00:40:04,576 [indistinct chattering] 857 00:40:04,619 --> 00:40:07,274 [camera shutters clicking] 858 00:40:07,317 --> 00:40:10,799 [Mills] Trump was sort of seen as like the personification 859 00:40:10,843 --> 00:40:13,976 of the smug Pepe meme. 860 00:40:14,020 --> 00:40:16,457 When he was announcing that he was going to run, 861 00:40:16,501 --> 00:40:19,460 every news story is, you know, they don't like him. 862 00:40:19,504 --> 00:40:21,331 People in his own party, they don't like him. 863 00:40:21,375 --> 00:40:23,595 And people in the other party, they really don't like him. 864 00:40:23,638 --> 00:40:25,292 And it was like, "Oh, this is perfect." 865 00:40:25,335 --> 00:40:26,728 He's making everybody upset. 866 00:40:28,164 --> 00:40:31,646 A really interesting time in 4chan 867 00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:34,606 is Trump's initial announcement 868 00:40:34,649 --> 00:40:36,651 that he is running for president. 869 00:40:36,695 --> 00:40:38,784 [Aaron] If you look at the 4chan threads, 870 00:40:38,827 --> 00:40:40,612 before Trump's speech, 871 00:40:40,655 --> 00:40:43,179 it was fairly skeptical. 872 00:40:43,223 --> 00:40:45,225 But then they saw 873 00:40:45,268 --> 00:40:48,141 a lot of these things in his rhetoric that they like. 874 00:40:48,184 --> 00:40:49,490 They saw nationalism. 875 00:40:49,534 --> 00:40:51,797 They saw white nationalism. 876 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,626 And almost immediately you'll see people being like, 877 00:40:54,669 --> 00:40:57,977 can we get a Pepe with Donald Trump hair. 878 00:40:58,020 --> 00:40:59,587 I want to start circulating this. 879 00:40:59,631 --> 00:41:01,763 And that happened, that's within hours. 880 00:41:05,637 --> 00:41:07,769 [birds squawking] 881 00:41:09,858 --> 00:41:11,860 [ominous music] 882 00:41:15,081 --> 00:41:17,039 [keyboard clacking] 883 00:41:18,563 --> 00:41:21,522 I think that President Trump is... 884 00:41:21,566 --> 00:41:24,220 a real life version of Pepe, 885 00:41:24,264 --> 00:41:27,006 in the ability to illicit 886 00:41:27,049 --> 00:41:29,487 a reaction and to get attention 887 00:41:29,530 --> 00:41:32,446 and to express and to capture peoples' hopes and fears. 888 00:41:33,969 --> 00:41:36,276 I was formerly the Director of Strategy and Data 889 00:41:36,319 --> 00:41:37,886 for the Trump campaign, 890 00:41:37,930 --> 00:41:42,195 so I know as much, if not more about how to use voter data 891 00:41:42,238 --> 00:41:43,762 than anybody else in the country. 892 00:41:45,807 --> 00:41:47,200 During the campaign, 893 00:41:47,243 --> 00:41:50,420 there was an effort by 4chan 894 00:41:50,464 --> 00:41:52,814 to get other people to support the president 895 00:41:52,858 --> 00:41:54,860 by creating memes. 896 00:41:54,903 --> 00:41:56,165 [Braynard]And then sharing them 897 00:41:56,209 --> 00:41:57,993 to say, normies, 898 00:41:58,037 --> 00:42:01,388 to try to motivate them to support President Trump. 899 00:42:02,563 --> 00:42:04,391 The inside terminology 900 00:42:04,434 --> 00:42:06,349 for this was "The Great Meme War." 901 00:42:09,048 --> 00:42:11,224 It gave people who had never really been involved 902 00:42:11,267 --> 00:42:12,573 in politics before 903 00:42:12,617 --> 00:42:13,618 a way in. 904 00:42:15,924 --> 00:42:17,186 [Braynard] The best memes that you see, 905 00:42:17,230 --> 00:42:18,710 the most effective ones, 906 00:42:18,753 --> 00:42:21,539 are just some person who has no power at all. 907 00:42:21,582 --> 00:42:22,801 They have no influence, they have no money, 908 00:42:22,844 --> 00:42:24,150 they have no connections. 909 00:42:24,193 --> 00:42:25,847 But if they can make one good meme, 910 00:42:25,891 --> 00:42:27,545 they can take off and go viral. 911 00:42:29,111 --> 00:42:30,243 Then when you hypercharge it 912 00:42:30,286 --> 00:42:31,853 by having the president retweet it, 913 00:42:31,897 --> 00:42:34,247 you felt like you were part of this rebel group, 914 00:42:34,290 --> 00:42:35,988 this insurgency 915 00:42:36,031 --> 00:42:39,426 that was completely unpredictable and from 916 00:42:39,469 --> 00:42:41,689 where no one would have ever expected it. 917 00:42:41,733 --> 00:42:44,039 How does an image like this 918 00:42:44,083 --> 00:42:47,652 end up on Donald Trump's Twitter account? 919 00:42:47,695 --> 00:42:50,480 [Dale] 4chan supported Trump for a mix of reasons. 920 00:42:50,524 --> 00:42:52,657 Some of it I think was this nihilistic idea 921 00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:54,180 that Trump was a wrecking ball. 922 00:42:54,223 --> 00:42:56,443 And that they wanted to embarrass people 923 00:42:56,486 --> 00:42:57,923 by electing him. 924 00:42:57,966 --> 00:42:59,620 [Dale] And so when Trump retweeted himself 925 00:42:59,664 --> 00:43:01,404 depicted as Pepe, 926 00:43:01,448 --> 00:43:03,711 it was like this watershed moment. 927 00:43:06,409 --> 00:43:08,716 [reporter #2] This is Donald Trump co-opting the idea 928 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,590 of himself, uh, sort of substituted as Pepe. 929 00:43:12,633 --> 00:43:14,461 [Braynard] It was so transgressive, 930 00:43:14,504 --> 00:43:16,463 so anti-PC. 931 00:43:16,506 --> 00:43:19,858 To most of the voters out there, it just seemed kind of odd. 932 00:43:19,901 --> 00:43:21,816 But, if you were part of the community 933 00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:24,036 that has been spending years and years, and years 934 00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:25,124 using Pepe, 935 00:43:25,167 --> 00:43:27,474 suddenly, a little antenna goes up 936 00:43:27,517 --> 00:43:29,215 and you pick up a signal and say, "Wow. 937 00:43:30,782 --> 00:43:32,392 Maybe this guy's right for us." 938 00:43:34,089 --> 00:43:36,091 [suspenseful music] 939 00:43:43,446 --> 00:43:44,534 [whirs] 940 00:43:47,276 --> 00:43:49,061 [Greer] There's always magic going on 941 00:43:49,104 --> 00:43:50,715 in any political campaign. 942 00:43:50,758 --> 00:43:52,151 And so... 943 00:43:52,194 --> 00:43:55,894 what happened when Pepe the Frog suddenly became, um, 944 00:43:55,937 --> 00:43:58,418 in effect Donald Trump's invisible running mate... 945 00:43:59,811 --> 00:44:02,552 was that a magical force had entered the picture 946 00:44:02,596 --> 00:44:03,858 and it was a wild card. 947 00:44:03,902 --> 00:44:06,078 [chiming] 948 00:44:06,121 --> 00:44:08,558 A meme can become the anchor 949 00:44:08,602 --> 00:44:10,038 or the seed, if you will, 950 00:44:10,082 --> 00:44:13,041 around which a group of like-minded people can gather 951 00:44:13,085 --> 00:44:14,652 and toward which they can focus their energy. 952 00:44:14,695 --> 00:44:17,045 That's a basic tool of meme magic. 953 00:44:17,089 --> 00:44:19,700 And that's one of the things we saw during the 2016 Election. 954 00:44:22,311 --> 00:44:24,357 [suspenseful music] 955 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,707 [Greer] The way that magic was used on the Chans was 956 00:44:26,751 --> 00:44:31,103 they focused on building up a series of hypersigils, 957 00:44:31,146 --> 00:44:34,236 -of images like Pepe the Frog. -[lightning crackles] 958 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,718 [Greer] And piled into those images, 959 00:44:37,762 --> 00:44:39,546 all of their hopes and all of their energy, 960 00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:41,548 their emotional focus 961 00:44:41,591 --> 00:44:44,246 of seeing Donald Trump in the White House. 962 00:44:44,290 --> 00:44:46,814 You ended up with a lot of people on the Chans just going, 963 00:44:46,858 --> 00:44:48,773 "Wow, I could do this." 964 00:44:52,864 --> 00:44:54,996 [keyboard clacking] 965 00:44:57,085 --> 00:44:59,087 [foreboding music] 966 00:45:00,915 --> 00:45:03,352 [crowd clamoring] 967 00:45:05,790 --> 00:45:08,836 It's not Republicanism as we have known it. 968 00:45:12,231 --> 00:45:15,451 These are racist ideas, race baiting ideas. 969 00:45:15,495 --> 00:45:19,020 Anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, 970 00:45:19,064 --> 00:45:22,589 anti-women. All key tenants making up the emerging 971 00:45:22,632 --> 00:45:23,851 racist ideology 972 00:45:23,895 --> 00:45:26,288 known as the alt-right. 973 00:45:26,332 --> 00:45:27,637 [man in crowd] Pepe! 974 00:45:27,681 --> 00:45:30,989 Now, alt-right is short for alternative-right. 975 00:45:31,032 --> 00:45:33,252 The Wall Street Journal describes it 976 00:45:33,295 --> 00:45:35,950 as a loose and racist ideology 977 00:45:35,994 --> 00:45:38,170 known as the alt-right. 978 00:45:38,213 --> 00:45:39,475 [man in crowd] Pepe! 979 00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:40,738 Pepe! 980 00:45:42,174 --> 00:45:43,566 And, and to most people, 981 00:45:43,610 --> 00:45:46,787 that was a totally inexplicable thing at the moment. 982 00:45:46,831 --> 00:45:48,006 It must be totally random. 983 00:45:48,049 --> 00:45:50,138 To the white supremacist anti-Semitic 984 00:45:50,182 --> 00:45:51,836 neo-Nazi right in this country, 985 00:45:51,879 --> 00:45:54,012 that was a moment of triumph. 986 00:45:55,187 --> 00:45:57,145 [keyboard clacking] 987 00:45:59,887 --> 00:46:02,672 Suddenly, Pepe the meme, the most... 988 00:46:02,716 --> 00:46:05,675 silliest piece of meaningless culture, 989 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,896 was sort of like passing through the screen. 990 00:46:08,940 --> 00:46:11,029 [Dale] It was kinda like the dream of the troll, 991 00:46:11,072 --> 00:46:12,421 making the Internet real. 992 00:46:16,077 --> 00:46:18,297 [suspenseful music] 993 00:46:22,692 --> 00:46:24,912 It was becoming like, 994 00:46:24,956 --> 00:46:27,567 you know, weird to, like, have this tattoo. 995 00:46:32,224 --> 00:46:34,400 You're here to get me involved in your... 996 00:46:34,443 --> 00:46:36,489 nightmare world? 997 00:46:36,532 --> 00:46:38,230 -[gate clicks] -What's good? 998 00:46:38,273 --> 00:46:39,797 -We're here to exploit you. -[chuckles] 999 00:46:41,450 --> 00:46:42,712 [both laughing] 1000 00:46:42,756 --> 00:46:45,106 Is this... this better be about Landwolf. 1001 00:46:46,151 --> 00:46:47,674 [Skinner] Duck your head. 1002 00:46:47,717 --> 00:46:49,241 Please don't kick my cat. 1003 00:46:50,503 --> 00:46:52,200 If, if you can help it. 1004 00:46:52,810 --> 00:46:54,507 [guitar chimes] 1005 00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:56,422 That... I think it's funny that, like... 1006 00:46:56,465 --> 00:46:59,468 that Chris got the Pepe tattooed on his arm and he was like, 1007 00:46:59,512 --> 00:47:01,035 -"I have to hide it now." -[laughing] 1008 00:47:01,079 --> 00:47:03,733 "Somebody at Subway thought I was a white power dude." 1009 00:47:03,777 --> 00:47:05,387 -Yeah. Everybody... -[laughs] 1010 00:47:05,431 --> 00:47:06,867 everybody's actually very... 1011 00:47:06,911 --> 00:47:08,651 everybody's very excited about Pepe. 1012 00:47:08,695 --> 00:47:10,262 They're like, "Oh wow, Pepe's this awesome meme, dude." 1013 00:47:10,305 --> 00:47:11,350 [Skinner] He rules. 1014 00:47:11,393 --> 00:47:12,917 -Yeah. -"Wow, you made Pepe?" 1015 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,310 I was like all proud of myself, strutting down the street, 1016 00:47:15,354 --> 00:47:17,182 -you know. -[snaps fingers] 1017 00:47:17,225 --> 00:47:19,488 [Skinner] Now people just throw rocks at you. 1018 00:47:19,532 --> 00:47:21,360 "That's the guy who created Pepe!" 1019 00:47:21,403 --> 00:47:22,883 -Yeah. -[Skinner]You're not strutting 1020 00:47:22,927 --> 00:47:24,450 -anymore, are ya? Sicko! -[Matt] No, I'm not. 1021 00:47:24,493 --> 00:47:25,886 Now I'm, now I'm like 1022 00:47:25,930 --> 00:47:28,193 just slithering down the street 1023 00:47:28,236 --> 00:47:31,326 in a pool of my own waste or something. 1024 00:47:31,370 --> 00:47:32,937 -[Skinner] Whoa, like a... -[Matt] Yeah. 1025 00:47:32,980 --> 00:47:34,503 -Like a slug lord. -Like a... 1026 00:47:34,547 --> 00:47:37,376 Just a... a slurping slimeball. 1027 00:47:37,419 --> 00:47:39,334 [Skinner] But I really do feel like 1028 00:47:39,378 --> 00:47:41,815 this would only happen to you. 1029 00:47:43,034 --> 00:47:44,774 [slime rustling] 1030 00:47:44,818 --> 00:47:45,906 [squelches] 1031 00:47:50,302 --> 00:47:53,479 [Adam]I interviewed Matt Furie in September 2016 1032 00:47:53,522 --> 00:47:55,176 with The Atlantic. 1033 00:47:55,220 --> 00:47:58,397 My impression of Furie was that he was very well intentioned, 1034 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,313 but somewhat naive about the extent to which 1035 00:48:01,356 --> 00:48:04,925 this symbol had been appropriated by the far right. 1036 00:48:04,969 --> 00:48:07,536 [reporter #3] Pepe is a white nationalist symbol... 1037 00:48:07,580 --> 00:48:08,886 [reporter #4] ...increasingly being used 1038 00:48:08,929 --> 00:48:10,191 by white supremacists... 1039 00:48:10,235 --> 00:48:12,846 It's something of a mascot by the alt-right. 1040 00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:15,588 [Adam] Defining the alt-right is somewhat easier these days. 1041 00:48:15,631 --> 00:48:17,285 But around 2016, 1042 00:48:17,329 --> 00:48:18,547 it encompassed a lot of people 1043 00:48:18,591 --> 00:48:20,680 who were ideologically opposed to the left 1044 00:48:20,723 --> 00:48:23,117 but not necessarily united on every issue. 1045 00:48:23,161 --> 00:48:24,902 And then you've got people like Richard Spencer 1046 00:48:24,945 --> 00:48:26,555 who are overt white nationalists. 1047 00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:29,602 [Spencer] 1048 00:48:31,691 --> 00:48:34,041 [Adam] But the alt-right Pepe allows them 1049 00:48:34,085 --> 00:48:35,260 to pretend that they're kidding. 1050 00:48:35,303 --> 00:48:36,478 They're not kidding. 1051 00:48:36,522 --> 00:48:38,567 What they want is for you to be 1052 00:48:38,611 --> 00:48:40,134 both scared by the threat 1053 00:48:40,178 --> 00:48:43,572 and be mocked for being scared in the first place. 1054 00:48:43,616 --> 00:48:45,966 The point is to cause that kind of psychic anguish 1055 00:48:46,010 --> 00:48:48,534 and then they draw a great deal of pleasure from that. 1056 00:48:48,577 --> 00:48:50,797 Basically alt-right is a big tent 1057 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,277 or rather a big rock 1058 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,932 under which creeps a diverse assortment of 1059 00:48:54,975 --> 00:48:57,673 paleo conservatives, men's rights misogynists... 1060 00:48:57,717 --> 00:49:01,416 I remember I went to a taping of Sam Bee. 1061 00:49:01,460 --> 00:49:05,333 And she had a segment about Pepe the Frog. 1062 00:49:05,377 --> 00:49:07,727 And I got to meet her after the taping. 1063 00:49:07,770 --> 00:49:09,381 And good old-fashioned neo-Nazis. 1064 00:49:09,424 --> 00:49:10,730 And I was like, "You know, 1065 00:49:10,773 --> 00:49:12,950 Pepe was actually created by a friend of mine 1066 00:49:12,993 --> 00:49:14,473 and he's a really sweet artist 1067 00:49:14,516 --> 00:49:16,779 and, and it doesn't mean this thing that it, 1068 00:49:16,823 --> 00:49:18,172 it transformed into, 1069 00:49:18,216 --> 00:49:20,783 and she was just, sort of like, "Okay." 1070 00:49:20,827 --> 00:49:23,438 The alt-right's use of Pepe just drowned out 1071 00:49:23,482 --> 00:49:25,571 any other visual interpretation, 1072 00:49:25,614 --> 00:49:29,053 you know, Trump's former campaign chair Steve Bannon said 1073 00:49:29,096 --> 00:49:31,403 the Democrats are not the opposition party, 1074 00:49:31,446 --> 00:49:33,013 the media is the opposition party 1075 00:49:33,057 --> 00:49:34,319 and how do you beat the media? 1076 00:49:34,362 --> 00:49:35,755 You flood the zone with shit. 1077 00:49:35,798 --> 00:49:37,626 Well, these people are flooding the zone with shit 1078 00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:40,151 so that you don't know what's real or what's not. 1079 00:49:42,153 --> 00:49:44,198 [Alex] I mean quite frankly I've been to the events. 1080 00:49:44,242 --> 00:49:45,634 It wasn't even real. 1081 00:49:45,678 --> 00:49:47,288 Literally, they're just Jewish actors. 1082 00:49:47,332 --> 00:49:49,160 A lot of the KKK guys with their hats off 1083 00:49:49,203 --> 00:49:52,206 literally looks like the cast of Seinfeld... 1084 00:49:52,250 --> 00:49:54,774 [Adam] A conspiracy theorist like Alex Jones 1085 00:49:54,817 --> 00:49:56,167 appeals to Trump because 1086 00:49:56,210 --> 00:49:58,212 one of Trump's major political tools 1087 00:49:58,256 --> 00:50:01,781 is forcing people to reject objective reality 1088 00:50:01,824 --> 00:50:03,870 in favor of his version of reality. 1089 00:50:03,913 --> 00:50:05,132 [Alex] Well, Donald Trump, let me say this. 1090 00:50:05,176 --> 00:50:07,439 You are the leading presidential frontrunner 1091 00:50:07,482 --> 00:50:09,093 with the Republicans 1092 00:50:09,136 --> 00:50:11,269 gaining a huge lead as you don't back down, but I got to just... 1093 00:50:11,312 --> 00:50:13,619 And the point of it is to obliterate objective truth. 1094 00:50:13,662 --> 00:50:15,055 [man on megaphone] Fake news! 1095 00:50:15,099 --> 00:50:17,971 [crowd chanting] Fuck CNN, fuck CNN! 1096 00:50:18,015 --> 00:50:19,451 Trump frames his language 1097 00:50:19,494 --> 00:50:21,714 in terms of winners and losers. 1098 00:50:21,757 --> 00:50:23,455 I said are you sick of fucking winning? 1099 00:50:23,498 --> 00:50:24,673 [crowd] No! 1100 00:50:24,717 --> 00:50:26,414 What happens when that mindset is adopted 1101 00:50:26,458 --> 00:50:28,068 by people on the bottom? 1102 00:50:28,112 --> 00:50:29,461 Instead of thinking of society 1103 00:50:29,504 --> 00:50:30,766 so like where everyone is sort of equal 1104 00:50:30,810 --> 00:50:32,855 and we're all lifting ourselves up together, 1105 00:50:32,899 --> 00:50:34,901 you think the world is a hierarchy 1106 00:50:34,944 --> 00:50:36,946 and the only way you're going to get to the top 1107 00:50:36,990 --> 00:50:39,079 is by displacing someone else. 1108 00:50:39,123 --> 00:50:40,602 Then you start getting these ideas like, 1109 00:50:40,646 --> 00:50:42,300 "Well, maybe I'm at the bottom 1110 00:50:42,343 --> 00:50:46,217 because this group of people has snuck their way to the top." 1111 00:50:46,260 --> 00:50:48,219 They probably cheated their way up there. 1112 00:50:48,262 --> 00:50:50,047 And so then you get these elaborate 1113 00:50:50,090 --> 00:50:51,309 conspiracies about like, 1114 00:50:51,352 --> 00:50:54,007 "Oh, well, the, the Jews run the media. 1115 00:50:54,051 --> 00:50:55,661 [Dale] Uh, "Immigrants, they're the problem." 1116 00:50:55,704 --> 00:50:58,316 [supporter] Build a wall! Build a wall! 1117 00:50:58,359 --> 00:51:02,407 Fuck those dirty beaners. Build a wall. 1118 00:51:02,450 --> 00:51:05,801 [Alex] We're not giving in. We're not going away. 1119 00:51:05,845 --> 00:51:07,107 Have we not given them 1120 00:51:07,151 --> 00:51:09,936 a big giant red, white, and blue middle finger? 1121 00:51:09,979 --> 00:51:12,156 [crowd cheering] 1122 00:51:14,984 --> 00:51:17,030 So, then it started to get strange. 1123 00:51:18,858 --> 00:51:21,382 [Greer] Somebody on the Chans, nobody knows who, 1124 00:51:21,426 --> 00:51:23,515 found an ancient Egyptian frog god 1125 00:51:23,558 --> 00:51:24,994 whose name was Kek. 1126 00:51:25,038 --> 00:51:27,084 He looked like an anthropomorphic figure 1127 00:51:27,127 --> 00:51:28,998 with a frog's head rather like Pepe. 1128 00:51:29,956 --> 00:51:31,958 Obviously that had to be shared 1129 00:51:32,001 --> 00:51:35,135 and... the Chans went ape. 1130 00:51:35,179 --> 00:51:36,832 [Greer] The reason why this caught on 1131 00:51:36,876 --> 00:51:39,444 is that Kek is a bit of gamer slang. 1132 00:51:39,487 --> 00:51:42,882 For complicated reasons, where we say "ha-ha-ha," 1133 00:51:42,925 --> 00:51:46,146 in certain gaming circles, you say "kek-kek-kek." 1134 00:51:46,190 --> 00:51:48,192 [ominous music] 1135 00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:51,717 [supporter #2] Trumpsters taking the hill. 1136 00:51:52,413 --> 00:51:53,719 The nation of Kek. 1137 00:51:53,762 --> 00:51:56,548 Kekistan taking the hill. 1138 00:51:56,591 --> 00:51:58,941 [Joel] They came up with this idea of Kekistan, 1139 00:51:58,985 --> 00:52:01,553 of a kind of promised land for Pepes. 1140 00:52:01,596 --> 00:52:04,121 And anytime you have these ideas 1141 00:52:04,164 --> 00:52:05,818 of ethnic homelands 1142 00:52:05,861 --> 00:52:08,386 and tribalist blood and soil, 1143 00:52:08,429 --> 00:52:11,215 it automatically seems to cluster in 1144 00:52:11,258 --> 00:52:14,609 with the worst exercises in human depravity. 1145 00:52:16,263 --> 00:52:18,831 All you need to do is just put on the mask. 1146 00:52:19,484 --> 00:52:20,833 Put on the mask. 1147 00:52:22,356 --> 00:52:26,012 [coughing] 1148 00:52:26,055 --> 00:52:28,623 [Greer] There had been rumors flying on the Chans 1149 00:52:28,667 --> 00:52:30,625 that Hillary Clinton was actually seriously ill. 1150 00:52:31,713 --> 00:52:33,672 And a great many chaos magicians 1151 00:52:33,715 --> 00:52:36,196 were focusing their magical work on one goal 1152 00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:38,024 which is making her collapse in public. 1153 00:52:39,330 --> 00:52:41,201 There's a thing that people talk about 1154 00:52:41,245 --> 00:52:44,465 in occult circles called the TSW moment. 1155 00:52:44,509 --> 00:52:47,773 A TSW, the polite version is This Stuff Works. 1156 00:52:49,818 --> 00:52:52,778 [Greer] The Chans went through their TSW moment. 1157 00:52:52,821 --> 00:52:54,432 Hillary Clinton collapsed 1158 00:52:54,475 --> 00:52:56,608 and had to be hauled into the SUV by other people. 1159 00:52:57,522 --> 00:53:00,133 [keyboard clacking] 1160 00:53:01,830 --> 00:53:03,267 I honestly think at that point 1161 00:53:03,310 --> 00:53:06,139 if Donald Trump had asked the habituated Chans 1162 00:53:06,183 --> 00:53:07,619 to walk into the ocean, 1163 00:53:07,662 --> 00:53:08,794 they would have done it. 1164 00:53:11,666 --> 00:53:15,104 You know, to just be grossly generalistic, 1165 00:53:16,584 --> 00:53:19,239 you could put half of Trump's supporters 1166 00:53:19,283 --> 00:53:21,720 into what I call the basket of deplorables. 1167 00:53:21,763 --> 00:53:23,939 [audience laughs] 1168 00:53:25,158 --> 00:53:27,073 -Right? -[audience applauding] 1169 00:53:28,944 --> 00:53:30,772 The racist, sexist, 1170 00:53:30,816 --> 00:53:33,732 homophobic, xenophobic, 1171 00:53:33,775 --> 00:53:36,082 -Islamophobic... -[microphone feedback] 1172 00:53:36,125 --> 00:53:38,737 [Dale] Hillary Clinton then released an explainer 1173 00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:41,740 explaining that Pepe was a hate symbol 1174 00:53:41,783 --> 00:53:43,524 and that he symbolized the alt-right 1175 00:53:43,568 --> 00:53:45,657 and through these associations, 1176 00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:49,878 it really made Trump look like a neo-Nazi. 1177 00:53:49,922 --> 00:53:52,664 But it made her also look a little clueless, right. 1178 00:53:52,707 --> 00:53:55,754 The idea that she was denouncing a cartoon frog 1179 00:53:55,797 --> 00:53:57,538 was delightful to 4chan, 1180 00:53:57,582 --> 00:53:59,714 delightful to the alt-right. 1181 00:53:59,758 --> 00:54:01,542 [Dale] It was the best thing 1182 00:54:01,586 --> 00:54:03,762 that could have happened for them. 1183 00:54:03,805 --> 00:54:05,764 [Braynard] It certainly galvanized people 1184 00:54:05,807 --> 00:54:08,375 who thought, "Hey, I really dig Pepe." 1185 00:54:08,419 --> 00:54:10,377 And she just launched an attack on me 1186 00:54:10,421 --> 00:54:11,639 and called me a Nazi. 1187 00:54:14,207 --> 00:54:17,079 [Alex] Ladies and gentlemen, the battle has just begun. 1188 00:54:17,123 --> 00:54:19,343 And we are ready. 1189 00:54:19,386 --> 00:54:23,303 [Matt] And I think that that just kind of solidified it. 1190 00:54:23,347 --> 00:54:26,393 Now once you start deeming something 1191 00:54:26,437 --> 00:54:27,525 as a hate symbol, 1192 00:54:27,568 --> 00:54:30,615 It does, kind of, become that. 1193 00:54:30,658 --> 00:54:33,270 A popular cartoon character turned Internet meme, 1194 00:54:33,313 --> 00:54:35,054 Pepe the frog, has been added to 1195 00:54:35,097 --> 00:54:38,144 the Anti-Defamation League's database of hate symbols 1196 00:54:38,187 --> 00:54:39,928 [anchor #1]In a press release, the organization wrote, 1197 00:54:39,972 --> 00:54:41,321 the character had been, quote, 1198 00:54:41,365 --> 00:54:43,454 "Used by haters on social media 1199 00:54:43,497 --> 00:54:47,066 to suggest racist, anti-Semitic or other bigoted notions 1200 00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:48,589 as a hate symbol." 1201 00:54:48,633 --> 00:54:50,896 [Aiyana] Matt's name was in the description 1202 00:54:50,939 --> 00:54:52,593 about it on the website. 1203 00:54:52,637 --> 00:54:55,074 -[mouse clicks] -[Aiyana]It's like a nightmare. 1204 00:54:57,206 --> 00:54:59,339 He's thinking, "I've worked my whole life 1205 00:54:59,383 --> 00:55:00,688 as an artist 1206 00:55:00,732 --> 00:55:03,256 and now I'm gonna be lumped in 1207 00:55:03,300 --> 00:55:06,825 with this weird new swastika. 1208 00:55:06,868 --> 00:55:08,566 [newscaster] Matt Furie put out a statement 1209 00:55:08,609 --> 00:55:10,263 to the Associated Press. He said that he was horrified 1210 00:55:10,307 --> 00:55:11,830 to see his creation become a mascot 1211 00:55:11,873 --> 00:55:13,614 for the alt-right fringe movement. 1212 00:55:13,658 --> 00:55:15,399 [Matt] I don't want to be associated with this. 1213 00:55:15,442 --> 00:55:17,314 You know, I'm, like, trying to write children's books. 1214 00:55:19,359 --> 00:55:21,622 The nature of the media and politics and stuff that 1215 00:55:21,666 --> 00:55:25,234 I've been trying to escape from my entire life. 1216 00:55:25,278 --> 00:55:26,975 I don't give a shit about any of that stuff. 1217 00:55:27,019 --> 00:55:29,674 Then I got pulled into it just because... 1218 00:55:29,717 --> 00:55:32,720 I'm on a hate symbol database list now 1219 00:55:32,764 --> 00:55:34,243 and it pissed me off. 1220 00:55:34,287 --> 00:55:36,985 -[birds chirping] -[dogs barking] 1221 00:55:39,597 --> 00:55:41,860 [whirring] 1222 00:55:43,818 --> 00:55:47,561 As the news was going on that this Internet frog 1223 00:55:47,605 --> 00:55:49,868 has been marked as like a hate symbol, 1224 00:55:49,911 --> 00:55:52,349 that's when I got the phone call from our buyer. 1225 00:55:52,392 --> 00:55:53,741 [Rachael] They pulled it right away. 1226 00:55:53,785 --> 00:55:56,483 So, we have about 3,000 items 1227 00:55:56,527 --> 00:56:00,226 that were going to go into 580 stores across the U.S. 1228 00:56:00,269 --> 00:56:03,708 and now it's in my garage. So... 1229 00:56:03,751 --> 00:56:06,232 [Rachael] These were probably, like, $15 each to make. 1230 00:56:06,275 --> 00:56:08,408 If you think of 15 times 3,000, 1231 00:56:08,452 --> 00:56:10,367 like, it's pretty crazy. [chuckles] 1232 00:56:10,410 --> 00:56:15,328 -Yeah it's 45,000 dollars. -[Rachael] Yup. 1233 00:56:15,372 --> 00:56:17,417 We didn't want to give it to Goodwill. 1234 00:56:17,461 --> 00:56:19,158 We didn't want to sell it ourselves 1235 00:56:19,201 --> 00:56:20,942 because we're afraid... 1236 00:56:20,986 --> 00:56:24,337 white supremacists would wear it and then... 1237 00:56:24,381 --> 00:56:27,906 What is that worth versus putting out a hate symbol? 1238 00:56:27,949 --> 00:56:29,908 And I'm sure you feel the same way. 1239 00:56:31,518 --> 00:56:35,087 A lot of the merchandise ended up having to be destroyed. 1240 00:56:35,130 --> 00:56:36,654 [Matt] Yeah, now, that's kind of the least 1241 00:56:36,697 --> 00:56:37,872 -of my worries. -[Rachael] I know. 1242 00:56:41,136 --> 00:56:42,573 [Johnny] He was a dummy. 1243 00:56:42,616 --> 00:56:44,836 He just kinda let his character get away from him 1244 00:56:44,879 --> 00:56:47,404 and now, this shit happened. 1245 00:56:47,447 --> 00:56:51,843 Matt is just like most of us, a poor, cartooning loser. 1246 00:56:51,886 --> 00:56:55,368 I was suggesting that he sue the Anti-Defamation League 1247 00:56:55,412 --> 00:56:57,414 for defamation. [chuckles] 1248 00:56:59,111 --> 00:57:01,113 [light music] 1249 00:57:01,722 --> 00:57:03,898 [smooches] 1250 00:57:03,942 --> 00:57:06,205 [Matt] I'm just trying to be positive. 1251 00:57:06,248 --> 00:57:09,382 Not everybody has a platform to talk about this kinda stuff. 1252 00:57:10,992 --> 00:57:13,473 I teamed up with the ADL 1253 00:57:13,517 --> 00:57:16,476 to just try to offer people some creative solutions. 1254 00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,478 -[audience applauding] -Hi, everybody. 1255 00:57:19,653 --> 00:57:21,046 Um... 1256 00:57:22,395 --> 00:57:24,049 So what we're trying to do now 1257 00:57:24,092 --> 00:57:26,791 is to start a Save Pepe campaign. 1258 00:57:26,834 --> 00:57:30,185 -And uh... -[audience laughs and applauds] 1259 00:57:32,666 --> 00:57:33,885 I invite everybody 1260 00:57:33,928 --> 00:57:36,844 to draw their own peaceful version of Pepe 1261 00:57:36,888 --> 00:57:40,587 and share it on social media with the hashtag "savepepe." 1262 00:57:41,849 --> 00:57:43,590 [Matt] Can we turn something 1263 00:57:43,634 --> 00:57:45,810 that's become a recognized hate symbol 1264 00:57:45,853 --> 00:57:48,029 into a recognized love symbol? 1265 00:57:50,031 --> 00:57:52,251 [cheerful music] 1266 00:57:52,294 --> 00:57:54,471 [Emily] It was really funny, but it was also really lovely. 1267 00:57:54,514 --> 00:57:56,429 -Like I tweeted about it. I... -Yeah. 1268 00:57:56,473 --> 00:57:58,823 -I tried to help. I, like... -Yeah. I drew a Pepe. 1269 00:57:58,866 --> 00:58:02,304 [Lisa] Part of the Save Pepe campaign. 1270 00:58:02,348 --> 00:58:05,482 I'm like, damn, he's kind of going through a situation 1271 00:58:05,525 --> 00:58:08,093 that isn't right and I want to help him out. 1272 00:58:08,136 --> 00:58:10,138 [rasping] 1273 00:58:11,139 --> 00:58:12,184 Does that look like Pepe? 1274 00:58:12,967 --> 00:58:14,926 [Hampton laughs] 1275 00:58:14,969 --> 00:58:16,580 I've never drawn Pepe before, 1276 00:58:16,623 --> 00:58:19,017 but I figured I'm going to do whatever I can to help 1277 00:58:19,060 --> 00:58:21,846 because I'm such a big fan of Matt's, and... 1278 00:58:21,889 --> 00:58:24,718 So, I'm butchering Pepe here, but... 1279 00:58:24,762 --> 00:58:25,850 something like that. 1280 00:58:26,981 --> 00:58:28,592 [Kevin] In Matt's work, 1281 00:58:28,635 --> 00:58:31,986 I can feel his love for nature and the universe. 1282 00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:35,294 I was like, "Oh, yeah, Matt's my buddy, you know. 1283 00:58:35,337 --> 00:58:37,383 I like Pepe, so, I just kind of, like, you know... 1284 00:58:37,426 --> 00:58:39,646 I made a Peace Frog Pepe, you know. 1285 00:58:41,169 --> 00:58:42,780 Does that look like Pepe? 1286 00:58:42,823 --> 00:58:44,695 [both laugh] 1287 00:58:44,738 --> 00:58:46,305 [interviewer] It's getting less and less like Pepe. 1288 00:58:46,348 --> 00:58:47,349 [laughs] 1289 00:58:50,048 --> 00:58:52,093 [Matt] I've been working on it for about a month now 1290 00:58:52,137 --> 00:58:55,009 and I've gotten about 500 and counting 1291 00:58:55,053 --> 00:58:57,403 brand new peace Pepes. 1292 00:58:57,446 --> 00:59:01,276 My goal with this is to eventually start something 1293 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,932 that I'd like to call the Peace Pepe Database of Love. 1294 00:59:05,629 --> 00:59:07,892 [cheerful music] 1295 00:59:07,935 --> 00:59:10,068 My whole thing is just to focus on positive 1296 00:59:10,111 --> 00:59:11,504 and just keep being creative. 1297 00:59:14,420 --> 00:59:16,770 [ominous music] 1298 00:59:27,215 --> 00:59:29,174 [Braynard] The attempt by Matt Furie 1299 00:59:29,217 --> 00:59:31,872 to wrest control over Pepe, 1300 00:59:31,916 --> 00:59:33,613 it seems like he understands the Internet 1301 00:59:33,657 --> 00:59:35,746 about as well as Hillary Clinton does. 1302 00:59:35,789 --> 00:59:40,620 Maybe if the original artwork wasn't so pedestrian and basic 1303 00:59:40,664 --> 00:59:42,666 that an eight year old can draw Pepe. 1304 00:59:42,709 --> 00:59:45,843 A scribbling that was improved upon by others 1305 00:59:45,886 --> 00:59:48,367 that was given meaning that it never had before, 1306 00:59:48,410 --> 00:59:51,109 I would just encourage Matt to... 1307 00:59:51,152 --> 00:59:54,025 you know, just be glad to have been a small part 1308 00:59:54,068 --> 00:59:55,113 of a very big thing. 1309 00:59:57,985 --> 01:00:00,901 [Matt] Art is supposed to be therapeutic, so, uh... 1310 01:00:00,945 --> 01:00:02,860 before Trump got elected, 1311 01:00:02,903 --> 01:00:06,733 I just did this kind of, like, nightmare scenario of Pepe, 1312 01:00:06,777 --> 01:00:09,170 like slowly morphing into Donald Trump 1313 01:00:09,214 --> 01:00:11,172 and then into a monster and then, 1314 01:00:11,216 --> 01:00:13,348 uh, being trapped inside the monster's mouth, 1315 01:00:13,392 --> 01:00:15,220 as you can see, and, uh... 1316 01:00:15,263 --> 01:00:16,482 It's like a nuclear war. 1317 01:00:16,525 --> 01:00:18,049 [explosion] 1318 01:00:18,092 --> 01:00:20,181 [eerie music] 1319 01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:25,186 [crowd cheering] 1320 01:00:25,230 --> 01:00:28,407 [Alex Jones] This is the new American moment. 1321 01:00:28,450 --> 01:00:32,498 This is like Martin-Luther-King- I-have-a-dream speech. 1322 01:00:32,541 --> 01:00:36,763 It's like Washington crossing the Delaware 1323 01:00:36,807 --> 01:00:40,114 [all] ♪ We are the champions 1324 01:00:40,158 --> 01:00:42,682 [whooping] 1325 01:00:45,859 --> 01:00:47,382 [Mills] We were all ecstatic. 1326 01:00:47,426 --> 01:00:50,690 [keyboard clacking] 1327 01:00:50,734 --> 01:00:53,475 Donald Trump, he wasn't supposed to be there. 1328 01:00:53,519 --> 01:00:54,999 [Mills] We all felt, like, 1329 01:00:55,042 --> 01:00:58,785 the meming had played a part in the election. 1330 01:00:58,829 --> 01:01:02,920 [Matt] The Internet's joke kind of came to fruition. 1331 01:01:04,486 --> 01:01:06,706 [victorious music] 1332 01:01:06,750 --> 01:01:09,274 [crowd cheering] 1333 01:01:14,888 --> 01:01:18,239 [reporter #5]The chaotic scene just blocks outside the secure 1334 01:01:18,283 --> 01:01:20,546 of the inauguration and parade routes. 1335 01:01:20,589 --> 01:01:22,504 [reporter #6] 1336 01:01:22,548 --> 01:01:24,115 -What? -[man speaking] 1337 01:01:24,158 --> 01:01:26,595 It's Pepe. He's become kind of a symbol... 1338 01:01:26,639 --> 01:01:28,641 [upbeat music] 1339 01:01:47,704 --> 01:01:50,707 After the election, Matt just came to me and said, 1340 01:01:50,750 --> 01:01:53,361 "Hey, I'm going to draw a comic strip with Pepe in it 1341 01:01:53,405 --> 01:01:55,233 and I'm going to kill him." 1342 01:01:55,276 --> 01:01:58,845 [Matt] The Pepe thing was so out of control at that point 1343 01:01:58,889 --> 01:02:01,587 and whatever Pepe meant to all these other people 1344 01:02:01,630 --> 01:02:03,415 didn't mean the same thing to me. 1345 01:02:04,329 --> 01:02:05,547 So I just killed him. 1346 01:02:06,940 --> 01:02:08,681 [thunder crashing] 1347 01:02:08,725 --> 01:02:10,335 [Matt] I just thought it'd be funny to do a comic strip 1348 01:02:10,378 --> 01:02:12,119 where all the boys are at his funeral. 1349 01:02:13,338 --> 01:02:14,861 ♪ Your picture 1350 01:02:17,603 --> 01:02:19,083 ♪ Is still 1351 01:02:19,126 --> 01:02:20,258 [thunder crashing] 1352 01:02:21,781 --> 01:02:23,696 ♪ On my wall 1353 01:02:26,046 --> 01:02:27,874 ♪ On my wall 1354 01:02:30,659 --> 01:02:32,270 ♪ The color 1355 01:02:35,142 --> 01:02:37,057 ♪ Are bright 1356 01:02:40,017 --> 01:02:41,583 ♪ Bright 1357 01:02:44,238 --> 01:02:45,892 - ♪ As ever -[crying] 1358 01:02:48,503 --> 01:02:52,638 ♪ The red is strong 1359 01:02:52,681 --> 01:02:55,989 ♪ The blue will rest pure 1360 01:02:57,121 --> 01:03:00,820 ♪ Something lasts 1361 01:03:00,864 --> 01:03:03,170 ♪ A long time 1362 01:03:06,434 --> 01:03:10,003 ♪ Something lasts 1363 01:03:10,047 --> 01:03:12,136 ♪ A long time 1364 01:03:19,970 --> 01:03:23,712 [Matt] I didn't think it'd get noticed or anything. 1365 01:03:23,756 --> 01:03:24,844 I'm sure you recognize 1366 01:03:24,888 --> 01:03:26,454 the cartoon character Pepe the Frog. 1367 01:03:26,498 --> 01:03:28,326 [male anchor #2]Well, he won't be around so much longer 1368 01:03:28,369 --> 01:03:31,155 because his creator has decided to kill him off. 1369 01:03:31,198 --> 01:03:33,766 [woman #3] A carton frog died on the Internet. 1370 01:03:33,810 --> 01:03:35,855 His name was Pepe. 1371 01:03:35,899 --> 01:03:38,597 It seemed like every time he drew Pepe, 1372 01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,729 he would get hounded by reporters. 1373 01:03:40,773 --> 01:03:44,646 -[thunder crashing] -[bell tolling] 1374 01:03:44,690 --> 01:03:46,605 -[Aiyana] He just hated it. -[camera shutters clicking] 1375 01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,698 [thunder crashing] 1376 01:03:52,741 --> 01:03:56,658 [Pizza] When I had first seen Matt's death of Pepe comic, 1377 01:03:56,702 --> 01:03:58,878 I was honestly a bit sad. 1378 01:03:58,922 --> 01:03:59,966 [sobbing] 1379 01:04:00,010 --> 01:04:01,881 But the Pepe we see, unfortunately, 1380 01:04:01,925 --> 01:04:03,883 has been so far removed from the original... 1381 01:04:03,927 --> 01:04:06,843 that the Pepe Matt was killing was his own. 1382 01:04:11,108 --> 01:04:13,545 [suspenseful music] 1383 01:04:13,588 --> 01:04:14,851 [keys jingling] 1384 01:04:19,116 --> 01:04:21,335 [Matt] The burden of this weird Pepe shit 1385 01:04:21,379 --> 01:04:24,991 was starting to make me feel anxious and weird. 1386 01:04:29,126 --> 01:04:31,650 Maybe it is whatever people say it is. 1387 01:04:31,693 --> 01:04:34,131 Like I can't fucking control it, you know. 1388 01:04:35,567 --> 01:04:38,831 [whooshing] 1389 01:04:40,137 --> 01:04:43,183 ♪ The power that's inside 1390 01:04:43,227 --> 01:04:45,403 ♪ Pokemon! Gotta catch 'em all! ♪ 1391 01:04:45,446 --> 01:04:47,448 ♪ It's you and me 1392 01:04:54,020 --> 01:04:57,284 [Peter] Owning a rare Pepe is about being alpha. 1393 01:04:57,328 --> 01:05:02,115 It's about having dank, rare Pepes nobody else has. 1394 01:05:02,159 --> 01:05:05,118 And it's about how do we get to the moon in a Lambo. 1395 01:05:07,077 --> 01:05:08,556 [Peter]Okay, let's pull it up. 1396 01:05:09,949 --> 01:05:11,995 I'm in these crypto forums, 1397 01:05:12,038 --> 01:05:13,866 and for the longest time, 1398 01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:16,216 these guys would talk about Pepe Cash. 1399 01:05:17,478 --> 01:05:19,132 Some huge guys, 1400 01:05:19,176 --> 01:05:21,961 like, seven to eight figure portfolio crypto guys. 1401 01:05:22,005 --> 01:05:24,007 And I look at the website, I'm like, "What? 1402 01:05:24,050 --> 01:05:25,965 What the fuck are they talking about?" 1403 01:05:26,009 --> 01:05:27,010 What is it? 1404 01:05:28,620 --> 01:05:31,318 [gurgling] 1405 01:05:31,362 --> 01:05:33,755 [millionaire]So I actually am a Pepe Cash millionaire. 1406 01:05:34,974 --> 01:05:36,106 How many million is that? 1407 01:05:36,149 --> 01:05:38,195 Is that 363 million? 1408 01:05:38,238 --> 01:05:42,025 Ah, 363 million Internet Pepe. 1409 01:05:42,068 --> 01:05:43,374 You know, I like that. 1410 01:05:43,417 --> 01:05:45,158 [whirring] 1411 01:05:45,202 --> 01:05:47,639 [millionaire] This is when we christened the SS Rare Pepe 1412 01:05:47,682 --> 01:05:50,555 which I bought with Pepe Cash and I live on it. 1413 01:05:52,426 --> 01:05:55,212 If you want to explain the rare Pepe economy, 1414 01:05:55,255 --> 01:05:58,302 imagine a few dozen geeks on the Internet 1415 01:05:58,345 --> 01:06:02,132 came up with a way to trade memes off 4chan 1416 01:06:02,175 --> 01:06:05,396 and lock them into ownership. 1417 01:06:05,439 --> 01:06:07,789 There are some Pepes that are superhero knockoffs. 1418 01:06:07,833 --> 01:06:10,879 You know, Iron Man Pepes, Spiderman Pepes. 1419 01:06:10,923 --> 01:06:13,273 Some people's heroes are more political in nature. 1420 01:06:13,317 --> 01:06:14,753 Trump Pepe, 1421 01:06:14,796 --> 01:06:16,581 which is awesome, because he's just like, 1422 01:06:16,624 --> 01:06:18,452 "Make crypto great again, whether you like it or not." 1423 01:06:20,498 --> 01:06:21,934 It's much different than comic books, 1424 01:06:21,978 --> 01:06:23,718 or even collectible baseball cards 1425 01:06:23,762 --> 01:06:28,767 because it exists as math on the Internet first... 1426 01:06:28,810 --> 01:06:32,553 and then later you can print the physical copy of it. 1427 01:06:32,597 --> 01:06:35,295 This is the physical card. This is worthless. 1428 01:06:35,339 --> 01:06:36,993 This is the thing that's worth 1429 01:06:37,036 --> 01:06:38,690 hundreds of thousands of dollars. 1430 01:06:40,083 --> 01:06:42,868 So, I was going to this digital arts conference 1431 01:06:42,911 --> 01:06:44,957 called Rare AF. Rare As Fuck. 1432 01:06:45,001 --> 01:06:46,785 [robotic music] 1433 01:06:46,828 --> 01:06:48,178 Luckily for me, 1434 01:06:48,221 --> 01:06:51,485 they're having the world's first rare Pepe auction. 1435 01:06:51,529 --> 01:06:53,009 Rare Pepe after rare Pepe 1436 01:06:53,052 --> 01:06:55,054 after beautiful rare Pepe passing by 1437 01:06:55,098 --> 01:06:57,013 and then finally gets to the end. 1438 01:06:57,056 --> 01:06:59,232 It's the ultimate rare Pepe. 1439 01:06:59,276 --> 01:07:00,625 [Peter] The Homer Pepe. 1440 01:07:00,668 --> 01:07:03,193 [tense music] 1441 01:07:03,236 --> 01:07:04,803 And I'm like, "I'm getting this thing." 1442 01:07:04,846 --> 01:07:05,978 Homer for 200. 1443 01:07:06,022 --> 01:07:07,284 -[man #2] Homer! -Two hundred. 1444 01:07:07,327 --> 01:07:08,589 [Peter] People start placing bids. 1445 01:07:08,633 --> 01:07:11,070 Twenty, 30, 40, 100,000 Pepe Cash. 1446 01:07:11,114 --> 01:07:12,724 Two hundred thousand Pepe Cash. 1447 01:07:12,767 --> 01:07:14,073 -[auctioneer] Two seventy-five. -[man #3] Two seventy. 1448 01:07:14,117 --> 01:07:15,640 [Peter] It starts getting so crazy 1449 01:07:15,683 --> 01:07:18,338 and it gets to 350,000 Pepe Cash. 1450 01:07:18,382 --> 01:07:21,515 Which is about 39,000 US dollars. 1451 01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:24,214 Three hundred fifty going once, going twice. 1452 01:07:24,257 --> 01:07:25,954 -[man #4] Uh-oh! -Sold! 1453 01:07:25,998 --> 01:07:28,000 [crowd cheering] 1454 01:07:28,044 --> 01:07:31,134 [man #4] What inspired you to pay 39,000 US dollars 1455 01:07:31,177 --> 01:07:33,832 -for a rare Pepe? -I'm just excited about Pepe. 1456 01:07:33,875 --> 01:07:34,876 [man #4] Okay. 1457 01:07:36,226 --> 01:07:37,531 So this is Homer Pepe. 1458 01:07:39,055 --> 01:07:42,188 Currently the world's most valuable rare Pepe. 1459 01:07:43,494 --> 01:07:46,758 Now what makes this Pepe worth so much? 1460 01:07:46,801 --> 01:07:49,326 It's the only one with a misprint. 1461 01:07:49,369 --> 01:07:53,330 Wait a minute. "Wait a mintue. Wait a mintue." 1462 01:07:53,373 --> 01:07:54,374 That's value. 1463 01:07:56,637 --> 01:07:57,943 [engine roars] 1464 01:07:59,423 --> 01:08:00,641 [rock music] 1465 01:08:14,916 --> 01:08:17,005 [whooshing] 1466 01:08:19,399 --> 01:08:21,880 [bell tolling] 1467 01:08:25,753 --> 01:08:27,015 [Jeremy] You're Matt, right? 1468 01:08:27,712 --> 01:08:30,367 [Joel] 1469 01:08:30,410 --> 01:08:32,195 You have gainfully employed all of us. 1470 01:08:32,238 --> 01:08:35,502 [all laugh] 1471 01:08:35,546 --> 01:08:38,157 So, uh... What are you guys talking about? 1472 01:08:38,201 --> 01:08:41,029 We're all working the general realm of, you know, 1473 01:08:41,073 --> 01:08:44,424 weird online behavior from a scientific perspective. 1474 01:08:44,468 --> 01:08:47,166 [Jeremy] We have, uh, security people from the U.S. 1475 01:08:47,210 --> 01:08:49,342 We have cryptographers from the U.K. 1476 01:08:49,386 --> 01:08:52,171 We have systems people from, uh, mainland Europe 1477 01:08:52,215 --> 01:08:54,565 and we take a large scale analysis of data, 1478 01:08:54,608 --> 01:08:57,002 getting a quantitative understanding of hate speech 1479 01:08:57,045 --> 01:08:58,090 throughout the web. 1480 01:08:58,134 --> 01:08:59,439 [indistinct chatter] 1481 01:08:59,483 --> 01:09:01,049 We had to figure out a way 1482 01:09:01,093 --> 01:09:03,182 to be able to measure this stuff at large scale 1483 01:09:03,226 --> 01:09:07,578 and we ended up building a system to measure memes. 1484 01:09:07,621 --> 01:09:09,754 [Jeremy] Just to give you an idea of the scale, Matt. 1485 01:09:09,797 --> 01:09:12,278 So we had over a billion posts 1486 01:09:12,322 --> 01:09:15,063 from Twitter, Reddit, /pol/ and Gab., 1487 01:09:15,107 --> 01:09:18,197 and we examined the 160 million some odd images. 1488 01:09:18,241 --> 01:09:19,851 So obviously, these weren't all Pepes, 1489 01:09:19,894 --> 01:09:22,375 but the scale of this data is huge. 1490 01:09:22,419 --> 01:09:24,508 -This is only for a year. -Interesting. 1491 01:09:24,551 --> 01:09:26,597 [Jeremy] There's a variety of different memes, 1492 01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,774 but there tends to be a Pepe variant 1493 01:09:29,817 --> 01:09:31,863 in every single one of these clusters. So... 1494 01:09:31,906 --> 01:09:33,343 You pick a random meme 1495 01:09:33,386 --> 01:09:35,258 and Pepe has been inserted into it 1496 01:09:35,301 --> 01:09:37,695 in some way, shape or form. 1497 01:09:37,738 --> 01:09:39,871 [Jeremy] In a lot of ways, Pepe becomes an entry point 1498 01:09:39,914 --> 01:09:41,612 to radicalization. 1499 01:09:41,655 --> 01:09:43,875 That's a very scary thing to think about. 1500 01:09:43,918 --> 01:09:47,444 Do you feel any personal responsibility for... 1501 01:09:47,487 --> 01:09:49,097 the bad stuff that has come out of this? 1502 01:09:50,142 --> 01:09:51,230 I mean, you shouldn't, 1503 01:09:51,274 --> 01:09:52,318 but you know, we're humans, right? 1504 01:09:52,362 --> 01:09:53,406 [Jeremy] We feel guilt for things 1505 01:09:53,450 --> 01:09:55,234 that we shouldn't feel guilt for. 1506 01:09:55,278 --> 01:09:58,237 [Matt] Um, I'm... I mean, uh, 1507 01:09:58,281 --> 01:10:00,718 maybe I could have been more proactive earlier on 1508 01:10:00,761 --> 01:10:02,285 -to, like, try to control it. -Yeah. 1509 01:10:02,328 --> 01:10:04,243 [Jeremy] So, the question of, "Can you get Pepe back?" 1510 01:10:04,287 --> 01:10:06,289 The reality is that there is, you know, 1511 01:10:06,332 --> 01:10:09,988 160 million memes, essentially, in a year, that we collected. 1512 01:10:10,031 --> 01:10:11,119 Not all of them were Pepes again, 1513 01:10:11,163 --> 01:10:12,730 but a good chunk of them are. 1514 01:10:12,773 --> 01:10:14,775 That's a tough genie to put back in the bottle. 1515 01:10:14,819 --> 01:10:16,777 Um, yeah. I wish you luck. 1516 01:10:16,821 --> 01:10:18,344 I do. 1517 01:10:18,388 --> 01:10:19,389 [Jeremy] Sincerely. 1518 01:10:20,172 --> 01:10:22,305 [somber music] 1519 01:10:23,393 --> 01:10:25,046 So... [chuckles] 1520 01:10:25,090 --> 01:10:27,397 I try to stay positive, you know. 1521 01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:29,007 [Matt] But to be honest, I... 1522 01:10:29,050 --> 01:10:30,095 I've gotten trolled. 1523 01:10:31,401 --> 01:10:32,837 Somebody sent me this. 1524 01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:35,143 I don't take it personally 1525 01:10:35,187 --> 01:10:38,756 even though I'm having my head decapitated. 1526 01:10:38,799 --> 01:10:40,845 It is what it is what it is, right? 1527 01:10:41,585 --> 01:10:42,586 Um... 1528 01:10:45,937 --> 01:10:48,722 [Matt] It's not like wearing on kind of, like, my spirit. 1529 01:10:48,766 --> 01:10:51,595 But it's kind of wearing on my drive to be creative. 1530 01:10:54,337 --> 01:10:59,559 It did manifest anxieties that I have yet to unravel. 1531 01:11:01,039 --> 01:11:03,259 He just kinda slept a lot and, uh... 1532 01:11:05,217 --> 01:11:08,002 You know, honestly it was kinda like hard to talk to him. 1533 01:11:09,395 --> 01:11:11,354 You know, I let him know I was there for him 1534 01:11:11,397 --> 01:11:12,659 and all that, but, like, 1535 01:11:12,703 --> 01:11:15,619 there wasn't anything anyone could really do. 1536 01:11:17,838 --> 01:11:20,232 [anchor #2]Tonight a Denton ISD assistant principal 1537 01:11:20,276 --> 01:11:23,279 is coming under fire for writing a new children's book. 1538 01:11:23,322 --> 01:11:25,542 A book, some say, is politically motivated. 1539 01:11:25,585 --> 01:11:27,805 I'm using Pepe just as a lighthearted way 1540 01:11:27,848 --> 01:11:31,112 of expressing maybe some conservative, uh, values. 1541 01:11:32,331 --> 01:11:33,898 [Eric] If you love America, 1542 01:11:33,941 --> 01:11:35,726 you're going to love this book for sure. 1543 01:11:39,469 --> 01:11:40,905 When Matt found out 1544 01:11:40,948 --> 01:11:44,996 that there was an Islamophobic racist children's book 1545 01:11:45,039 --> 01:11:49,305 starring Pepe coming out on Amazon, 1546 01:11:49,957 --> 01:11:51,263 he was so upset. 1547 01:11:52,786 --> 01:11:57,356 And that's when he kind of... freaked out about it. 1548 01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,010 [Aiyana] It was, like, the last straw. 1549 01:12:01,404 --> 01:12:04,624 It's like... It's like hell, man. Like... 1550 01:12:04,668 --> 01:12:06,931 If you want to... If you want to escape hell, 1551 01:12:06,974 --> 01:12:08,193 you can't ignore it. 1552 01:12:08,236 --> 01:12:09,977 You almost have to go to the center of it. 1553 01:12:13,938 --> 01:12:15,374 [elevator dings] 1554 01:12:16,244 --> 01:12:18,246 [quirky music] 1555 01:12:20,423 --> 01:12:22,294 [Louis] It is not very often 1556 01:12:22,338 --> 01:12:24,601 that nerdy intellectual property lawyers 1557 01:12:24,644 --> 01:12:26,994 get asked to fight the alt-right. 1558 01:12:27,038 --> 01:12:29,214 But when we do, we're ready. 1559 01:12:33,436 --> 01:12:35,525 [Matt] I have a whole team of lawyers 1560 01:12:35,568 --> 01:12:37,396 that are working with me pro bono 1561 01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:39,398 and have really empowered me to feel 1562 01:12:39,442 --> 01:12:42,183 like I do have some say in all this. 1563 01:12:42,227 --> 01:12:45,012 [upbeat music] 1564 01:12:45,056 --> 01:12:48,668 He really wanted to prevent the digital release of the book. 1565 01:12:48,712 --> 01:12:51,410 [Stephanie] Inside it was, in fact, 1566 01:12:51,454 --> 01:12:53,499 a not so veiled reference to a lot of alt-right themes. 1567 01:12:55,153 --> 01:12:57,068 We found out who was publishing it 1568 01:12:57,111 --> 01:13:00,550 and explained that Matt Furie owned the copyright to Pepe 1569 01:13:00,593 --> 01:13:04,510 and that we were prepared to enforce his rights in court. 1570 01:13:04,554 --> 01:13:06,425 [Louis] The Adventures of Pepe and Pede. 1571 01:13:06,469 --> 01:13:09,863 the electronic version was never published. 1572 01:13:09,907 --> 01:13:13,824 But the issue here is, when you shut down one person, 1573 01:13:13,867 --> 01:13:15,086 others pop up. 1574 01:13:17,262 --> 01:13:18,785 -[marker rasping] -[Matt] You know, 1575 01:13:18,829 --> 01:13:22,136 I'm a compassionate guy and I'm a sensitive guy. 1576 01:13:22,180 --> 01:13:24,661 But being able to work with a team of lawyers 1577 01:13:24,704 --> 01:13:26,837 has given me strength to... 1578 01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:29,970 shut these assholes up. 1579 01:13:31,494 --> 01:13:32,582 [host #1] You've been sued by a frog, bro. 1580 01:13:32,625 --> 01:13:33,583 [host #2] Do you even know this yet? 1581 01:13:33,626 --> 01:13:34,845 No. 1582 01:13:34,888 --> 01:13:36,150 -It's all over the Internet. -I'm surprised. 1583 01:13:36,194 --> 01:13:37,674 Surprise, motherfucker. You got sued by a frog. 1584 01:13:37,717 --> 01:13:38,805 [host #2] You've been sued by a fucking' frog, dude. 1585 01:13:38,849 --> 01:13:42,026 A conspiracy frog named Pepe. 1586 01:13:42,069 --> 01:13:45,333 [Alex] We did sell a poster that a listener made 1587 01:13:45,377 --> 01:13:46,944 titled Make American Great Again 1588 01:13:46,987 --> 01:13:48,598 that had a bunch of images, 1589 01:13:48,641 --> 01:13:51,209 of symbols that were popular during the campaign. 1590 01:13:51,252 --> 01:13:52,906 We talked to our trademark lawyers 1591 01:13:52,950 --> 01:13:56,475 and they said,"Mr. Jones, this is so outrageous. 1592 01:13:56,519 --> 01:13:58,172 It's against the First Amendment" 1593 01:13:58,216 --> 01:14:00,436 It is insane. 1594 01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,090 This is cockamamie balderdash. 1595 01:14:04,875 --> 01:14:06,833 He was selling a poster with Pepe on it 1596 01:14:06,877 --> 01:14:08,182 with a bunch of douchebags 1597 01:14:08,226 --> 01:14:09,575 and I just didn't want him to sell the poster. 1598 01:14:09,619 --> 01:14:11,359 [Johnny] The problem isn't the drawing 1599 01:14:11,403 --> 01:14:14,101 or the making of the art, you can do that. 1600 01:14:14,145 --> 01:14:17,365 [Johnny] It's just when you mass produce it and sell it, 1601 01:14:17,409 --> 01:14:20,456 that's when it gets into a stickier area. 1602 01:14:20,499 --> 01:14:23,023 [Matt] He's like, "Yeah, the man's gonna stop us." 1603 01:14:23,067 --> 01:14:26,679 He just jacked up the price of the poster 1604 01:14:26,723 --> 01:14:28,333 and then offered to sign them. 1605 01:14:28,376 --> 01:14:30,074 [Alex] I'm trying to free Pepe the Frog. 1606 01:14:30,117 --> 01:14:31,554 And I'm either going to succeed 1607 01:14:31,597 --> 01:14:33,991 or I'll be destroyed in the process, but that's okay. 1608 01:14:35,514 --> 01:14:38,474 [Matt] I actually don't know many people on here. 1609 01:14:38,517 --> 01:14:39,953 -[Johnny] Is that Trump, too? -[Matt] Yeah. 1610 01:14:39,997 --> 01:14:41,259 -There's are two Trumps. -Sounds like having two Trumps 1611 01:14:41,302 --> 01:14:43,348 in the same poster, is that legal? 1612 01:14:45,393 --> 01:14:47,308 [Johnny] Well, that's Billie Joe Armstrong from Green Day. 1613 01:14:47,352 --> 01:14:49,136 [Matt laughs] 1614 01:14:49,180 --> 01:14:50,834 [Johnny] And there's Marsha from The Brady Bunch. 1615 01:14:50,877 --> 01:14:52,139 -Billy Idol. -[Matt laughing] 1616 01:14:52,183 --> 01:14:55,491 -Billy Idol. -And there's Courtney Love. 1617 01:14:55,534 --> 01:14:57,405 [both laughing] 1618 01:15:00,365 --> 01:15:02,236 [barber] A lot of times, I'm cutting people's hair 1619 01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:04,543 for court when they're in trouble so... 1620 01:15:04,587 --> 01:15:06,763 Yeah, I'm not into... I'm not in any trouble at all. 1621 01:15:06,806 --> 01:15:09,896 Just, uh, weird situation. [chuckles] 1622 01:15:09,940 --> 01:15:12,725 Yeah, I've got this kinda, like, a notorious, 1623 01:15:12,769 --> 01:15:14,988 uh, character named Pepe the Frog. 1624 01:15:15,032 --> 01:15:16,773 -Have you ever heard of him? -[barber] Yeah, I actually have. 1625 01:15:16,816 --> 01:15:19,253 -My kids have, too. Yeah. -Oh, yeah? 1626 01:15:19,297 --> 01:15:22,692 -[old man] This guy, Pepe? -Yeah, that guy right there. 1627 01:15:22,735 --> 01:15:25,433 So the guy, Matt, do you know him? 1628 01:15:25,477 --> 01:15:26,565 [Matt] That's me. [giggles] 1629 01:15:26,609 --> 01:15:28,045 That who you got to go to court with? 1630 01:15:28,088 --> 01:15:29,525 Oh, no, that's me. I am Matt. 1631 01:15:29,568 --> 01:15:30,830 -[old man] Oh, you're Matt. -Yeah. 1632 01:15:31,918 --> 01:15:33,006 [old man] Oh. 1633 01:15:35,052 --> 01:15:38,272 [Alex]I don't know who this guy is doing, this Furie fella. 1634 01:15:38,316 --> 01:15:40,144 But I agreed to be deposed... 1635 01:15:41,188 --> 01:15:43,364 for the Pepe the Frog deal. 1636 01:15:43,408 --> 01:15:44,931 [woman #4] Sir, would you raise your right hand to be sworn? 1637 01:15:44,975 --> 01:15:46,019 Do you solemnly state 1638 01:15:46,063 --> 01:15:47,107 the testimony you're about to give 1639 01:15:47,151 --> 01:15:48,282 will be the truth, the whole truth 1640 01:15:48,326 --> 01:15:49,762 -and nothing but the truth? -I do. 1641 01:15:53,766 --> 01:15:56,508 [Alex] I don't like the frog. I don't like this whole thing. 1642 01:15:56,552 --> 01:15:58,118 But I got to stand up for the First Amendment. 1643 01:15:59,946 --> 01:16:01,905 Let's say the frog is triggering for me now. 1644 01:16:03,863 --> 01:16:05,343 I hate Pepe. 1645 01:16:05,386 --> 01:16:07,693 [man #5]Video tape deposition of Matt Furie 1646 01:16:07,737 --> 01:16:10,130 in the matter of Matt Furie vs. InfoWars, 1647 01:16:10,174 --> 01:16:12,655 and Free Speech, LLC. 1648 01:16:13,786 --> 01:16:16,136 [man #5] So from 2001 to 2007, 1649 01:16:16,180 --> 01:16:20,140 you had sort of this carefree part-time, knucklehead life. 1650 01:16:21,489 --> 01:16:22,795 I still have that. 1651 01:16:22,839 --> 01:16:25,276 [man #5 chuckles] Excellent. 1652 01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:27,321 And what did you do to prepare for today's deposition? 1653 01:16:28,932 --> 01:16:30,411 Really nothing. 1654 01:16:30,455 --> 01:16:33,850 [man #5] So how did you pick the name Pepe the Frog? 1655 01:16:33,893 --> 01:16:36,417 It sounded like, um, "peepee." 1656 01:16:37,723 --> 01:16:39,203 To go peepee. 1657 01:16:39,246 --> 01:16:40,770 [man #5] So it is a cartoon frog, right? 1658 01:16:40,813 --> 01:16:41,901 Yes, it's a cartoon frog. 1659 01:16:41,945 --> 01:16:44,512 [man #5] It has round lips, right? 1660 01:16:45,513 --> 01:16:47,124 I wouldn't call that round lips. 1661 01:16:47,167 --> 01:16:49,387 -[man #5] Okay. Uh... -More tubular. 1662 01:16:49,430 --> 01:16:50,954 [man #5] Tubular lips. 1663 01:16:50,997 --> 01:16:53,783 [Matt] I thought I had some kind of like Zen-like grip. 1664 01:16:53,826 --> 01:16:55,915 He kinda did the good cop, bad cop thing on me. 1665 01:16:55,959 --> 01:16:59,005 He was like, "So you like Beavis and Butthead"? 1666 01:16:59,049 --> 01:17:00,180 [man] Do you watch Ren and Stimpy? 1667 01:17:00,224 --> 01:17:01,399 Yes. 1668 01:17:01,442 --> 01:17:03,531 [Matt] But then, he was all kind of like... 1669 01:17:03,575 --> 01:17:04,707 "Let's get 'em." 1670 01:17:04,750 --> 01:17:07,448 [man #5] Forty-nine. This is a fun one. 1671 01:17:09,886 --> 01:17:11,191 -[thuds] -[sighs] 1672 01:17:11,235 --> 01:17:14,194 [man #5] Hold that up and tell us what's 49? 1673 01:17:14,238 --> 01:17:17,676 Um, yeah, it's an allegory on the direction nature's going 1674 01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:19,809 from my perspective. 1675 01:17:19,852 --> 01:17:21,549 [man #5] Uh, excuse me. The second to last page. 1676 01:17:21,593 --> 01:17:22,812 -Page 20. -I'm sorry. 1677 01:17:22,855 --> 01:17:25,423 I worked out this morning. 1678 01:17:25,466 --> 01:17:27,381 [man #5] It's just coincidental that they look alike? 1679 01:17:27,425 --> 01:17:28,861 Absolutely. 1680 01:17:28,905 --> 01:17:32,952 An original character that's based on a hot dog man. 1681 01:17:32,996 --> 01:17:35,172 Part man, part hot dog. 1682 01:17:35,215 --> 01:17:36,782 It's clear what all this is. 1683 01:17:36,826 --> 01:17:38,566 So people can say Jones is using a white supremacist symbol 1684 01:17:38,610 --> 01:17:39,959 when it's not. 1685 01:17:40,003 --> 01:17:41,178 It's a way of saying I'm a white supremacist. 1686 01:17:41,221 --> 01:17:44,355 It's a way of defaming me... 1687 01:17:44,398 --> 01:17:46,618 and acting like I stole something all at the same time. 1688 01:17:46,662 --> 01:17:48,272 It's just... god! Evil! 1689 01:17:49,708 --> 01:17:51,754 That's just evil! 1690 01:17:51,797 --> 01:17:52,842 [man #5] Is that Big Bird? 1691 01:17:52,885 --> 01:17:54,408 Yes. 1692 01:17:54,452 --> 01:17:55,540 [man #5] Thirty-one is not Grimace? 1693 01:17:55,583 --> 01:17:57,020 No. 1694 01:17:57,063 --> 01:17:59,718 [man #5] So those aren't derivations of the Hamburglar? 1695 01:17:59,762 --> 01:18:01,677 -Oh, these guys? -[man #5] Yes. 1696 01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,462 -Do you mean Mayor McCheese? -[man #5 chuckles] 1697 01:18:04,505 --> 01:18:06,682 And you got no license to put that up. 1698 01:18:06,725 --> 01:18:08,901 -[scoffs] -When I was in sixth grade, 1699 01:18:08,945 --> 01:18:11,817 I did not attain the license to draw this stuff. 1700 01:18:13,776 --> 01:18:15,212 You know, I went to the bathroom at one point 1701 01:18:15,255 --> 01:18:18,258 and he's taking a piss, too, and he's like, uh... 1702 01:18:18,302 --> 01:18:20,696 "So I guess this is where all the dicks hang out." 1703 01:18:20,739 --> 01:18:22,915 And I was like, "Ha ha, that's funny. 1704 01:18:22,959 --> 01:18:24,874 And also awkward that I got my dick in my hand 1705 01:18:24,917 --> 01:18:26,571 and we're talking right now and..." 1706 01:18:26,614 --> 01:18:27,877 And then, shortly after that, 1707 01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:29,226 he's just fucking screaming at me. 1708 01:18:29,269 --> 01:18:31,794 We're suing, uh, Alex Jones... 1709 01:18:32,664 --> 01:18:33,883 because he... 1710 01:18:33,926 --> 01:18:35,014 [man #5] That's not the question I asked you. 1711 01:18:35,058 --> 01:18:36,233 Oh. 1712 01:18:36,276 --> 01:18:37,538 [man #5] Answer the question I asked you. 1713 01:18:37,582 --> 01:18:39,236 It... It... 1714 01:18:39,279 --> 01:18:42,587 twisted my noodles for a while and I, like... 1715 01:18:42,630 --> 01:18:45,285 You know when you, like, say something in passing 1716 01:18:45,329 --> 01:18:47,200 to somebody else and it's like... 1717 01:18:47,244 --> 01:18:48,854 you wish you would've said something else. 1718 01:18:48,898 --> 01:18:52,336 [Matt]This was like four hours of concentrated... 1719 01:18:52,379 --> 01:18:55,382 me wishing I would have said something else. 1720 01:18:55,426 --> 01:18:57,254 It's not a comfortable situation. 1721 01:18:57,297 --> 01:19:00,736 Dude, it sucked. It was hard. 1722 01:19:00,779 --> 01:19:02,999 [Matt] From my point of view, this is a direct copy. 1723 01:19:04,348 --> 01:19:06,306 [man #5] So all of your references before 1724 01:19:06,350 --> 01:19:07,568 are just references. 1725 01:19:07,612 --> 01:19:09,179 But this one is what, traced, you mean? 1726 01:19:09,222 --> 01:19:10,789 Yeah. 1727 01:19:10,833 --> 01:19:13,749 [man #5] Why do you suppose Pepe looks happy in that picture? 1728 01:19:13,792 --> 01:19:15,098 Pepe's kinda like a mirror. 1729 01:19:15,141 --> 01:19:18,754 So the way that users online would use Pepe 1730 01:19:18,797 --> 01:19:20,364 is a reflection of... 1731 01:19:21,234 --> 01:19:22,670 themselves, to an extent. 1732 01:19:22,714 --> 01:19:26,239 That's my... interpretation of it. 1733 01:19:27,850 --> 01:19:29,068 [man #5] No further questions. 1734 01:19:29,112 --> 01:19:30,243 [man #6] I have nothing else here either. 1735 01:19:30,287 --> 01:19:31,897 Thank you for your time. 1736 01:19:31,941 --> 01:19:33,551 This marks the end of the video tape deposition of Alex Jones. 1737 01:19:33,594 --> 01:19:34,291 This marks the end of the video tape deposition of Alex Jones. 1738 01:19:34,334 --> 01:19:35,901 Good luck. 1739 01:19:35,945 --> 01:19:38,338 [man #6] We're going off record and the time is 13:00 even. 1740 01:19:42,516 --> 01:19:43,561 [Matt] Let's try to find a little round... 1741 01:19:43,604 --> 01:19:45,868 -[Ursula] Oh! -Oh, there it is. 1742 01:19:45,911 --> 01:19:48,522 -There. -So we need two dark green ones. 1743 01:19:48,566 --> 01:19:49,785 Okay. 1744 01:19:51,351 --> 01:19:52,831 [Matt] It took me weeks to detangle my mind 1745 01:19:52,875 --> 01:19:57,618 after all this legal stuff. 1746 01:19:57,662 --> 01:19:59,925 That's what I signed up for, you know. 1747 01:19:59,969 --> 01:20:01,622 It's not going to be easy, but... 1748 01:20:01,666 --> 01:20:03,929 but I'm willing to go the distance with this shit. 1749 01:20:10,109 --> 01:20:12,329 ♪ And he hops and hops 1750 01:20:12,372 --> 01:20:16,246 ♪ Pepe, watch out And he hops and hops ♪ 1751 01:20:16,289 --> 01:20:17,769 ♪ Pepe, do stop 1752 01:20:17,813 --> 01:20:19,945 - ♪ And he hops and hops -[cellphone ringing] 1753 01:20:19,989 --> 01:20:21,991 ♪ You make me dizzy 1754 01:20:22,034 --> 01:20:23,557 ♪ You make me dizzy 1755 01:20:23,601 --> 01:20:25,559 ♪ I say, Pepe, come here 1756 01:20:25,603 --> 01:20:28,127 -Yeah. - ♪ And he hops and hops 1757 01:20:28,171 --> 01:20:29,737 ♪ Pepe, watch out 1758 01:20:30,390 --> 01:20:33,176 [Matt laughs] 1759 01:20:36,614 --> 01:20:39,269 [Aiyana] Everybody's saying congratulations. 1760 01:20:39,312 --> 01:20:43,360 "A sparkle of good news in these troubling times." 1761 01:20:43,403 --> 01:20:45,797 [light music] 1762 01:20:49,366 --> 01:20:51,020 [Matt] This was actually going to trial. 1763 01:20:51,063 --> 01:20:52,238 And then Louis was just, like, 1764 01:20:52,282 --> 01:20:54,893 "Oh, surprisingly they want to settle." 1765 01:20:54,937 --> 01:20:57,548 [Louis] We were confident we were gonna prevail at trial. 1766 01:20:57,591 --> 01:20:59,419 And InfoWars gave up. 1767 01:21:00,943 --> 01:21:03,075 It just went live on InfoWars.com. 1768 01:21:03,119 --> 01:21:05,512 [Alex] InfoWars settles Pepe the Frog lawsuit. 1769 01:21:05,556 --> 01:21:08,776 Pays tiny settlement to creator Matt Furie. 1770 01:21:08,820 --> 01:21:10,039 [Marc] This amount... 1771 01:21:10,082 --> 01:21:12,258 It's a bar tab at a topless club, you know, 1772 01:21:12,302 --> 01:21:13,607 for one good night, so... 1773 01:21:13,651 --> 01:21:15,218 -So, what the heck. -[Alex laughs] 1774 01:21:15,261 --> 01:21:17,873 This is more than I've ever made on theBoy's Club comic books. 1775 01:21:17,916 --> 01:21:20,397 So, it just, kind of... To put it into context, like, 1776 01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:22,181 Alex Jones is like... 1777 01:21:22,225 --> 01:21:25,054 "Hey, we got away with barely paying anything." 1778 01:21:25,097 --> 01:21:26,969 But it's all... it's all relative. 1779 01:21:27,012 --> 01:21:29,101 This is a big deal to show what these bullies are up to 1780 01:21:29,145 --> 01:21:30,537 and what happens when you stand up to them. 1781 01:21:30,581 --> 01:21:32,452 [robotic voice] 1782 01:21:33,714 --> 01:21:35,542 At the end of the day, he's just... 1783 01:21:35,586 --> 01:21:39,720 selling a bunch of bad ideas, bad supplements, 1784 01:21:39,764 --> 01:21:41,809 in a bad attitude. 1785 01:21:41,853 --> 01:21:44,160 [Matt] It's just a business. 1786 01:21:44,203 --> 01:21:46,075 Without you buying the videos and the books 1787 01:21:46,118 --> 01:21:47,467 and the supplements, 1788 01:21:47,511 --> 01:21:50,209 we couldn't put on one hell of a junkyard dog fight 1789 01:21:50,253 --> 01:21:51,297 against these bastards. 1790 01:21:53,125 --> 01:21:55,214 [Louis] This case against InfoWars 1791 01:21:55,258 --> 01:21:57,825 was the latest in a string of successes. 1792 01:21:57,869 --> 01:21:59,740 We went after Richard Spencer. 1793 01:21:59,784 --> 01:22:01,786 Uh, we went after Baked Alaska. 1794 01:22:01,829 --> 01:22:05,790 We went after the Daily Stormer, a neo-Nazi website. 1795 01:22:05,833 --> 01:22:09,054 We have successfully enforced Matt's copyrights in Pepe 1796 01:22:09,098 --> 01:22:12,971 against somewhere between 75 and 100 different entities 1797 01:22:13,015 --> 01:22:16,496 in connection with images or language of hate. 1798 01:22:16,540 --> 01:22:19,369 And this is beginning to turn the narrative 1799 01:22:19,412 --> 01:22:20,936 of Pepe back around. 1800 01:22:23,590 --> 01:22:25,592 [siren wailing in distance] 1801 01:22:30,946 --> 01:22:35,559 [Matt] This guys are, kind of, like, messing with reality. 1802 01:22:35,602 --> 01:22:39,389 Amplifying negativity or normalizing negativity. 1803 01:22:39,432 --> 01:22:42,000 And I'm doing everything I can in my power 1804 01:22:42,044 --> 01:22:44,394 to change the course of this thing. 1805 01:22:44,437 --> 01:22:47,701 And I think removing Pepe from the hate symbol list, 1806 01:22:47,745 --> 01:22:49,225 it would be a win for... 1807 01:22:50,487 --> 01:22:51,575 peace. 1808 01:22:57,276 --> 01:22:59,539 [elevator dings] 1809 01:22:59,583 --> 01:23:01,628 With all these legal steps that I'm taking, 1810 01:23:01,672 --> 01:23:03,935 everything I've been doing up until now, 1811 01:23:03,979 --> 01:23:06,982 my goal is to get it off the hate symbol database. 1812 01:23:07,025 --> 01:23:08,461 To me, it's not a symbol. 1813 01:23:08,505 --> 01:23:09,854 It's a character, you know. 1814 01:23:09,897 --> 01:23:11,247 It's the character, 1815 01:23:11,290 --> 01:23:13,162 but he's adorned with different symbols, you know. 1816 01:23:13,205 --> 01:23:15,686 [Matt] And they're pretty extreme stuff. 1817 01:23:15,729 --> 01:23:17,340 [Oren] I mean, yeah, you know. 1818 01:23:17,383 --> 01:23:20,038 It's tough, right? Having it on the hate symbols database, 1819 01:23:20,082 --> 01:23:21,561 we have found to be really useful 1820 01:23:21,605 --> 01:23:23,650 for those who are trying to understand 1821 01:23:23,694 --> 01:23:26,218 this barrage of symbols that is being thrown at them 1822 01:23:26,262 --> 01:23:29,308 whether it's a frog, a meme, or a hand gesture. 1823 01:23:29,352 --> 01:23:31,093 -[Matt] Mm-hmm. -It's complicated. 1824 01:23:31,136 --> 01:23:32,833 [Matt] Well, yeah, it is complicated 1825 01:23:32,877 --> 01:23:34,618 because I think with Pepe on the list, 1826 01:23:34,661 --> 01:23:37,577 it's seen more as a win for, you know, 1827 01:23:37,621 --> 01:23:39,318 the so called alt-right or these others 1828 01:23:39,362 --> 01:23:41,538 because now they have that symbol. 1829 01:23:41,581 --> 01:23:44,236 You know, this is going to be a lifelong journey for me 1830 01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:46,934 'cause I'm going to be entangled with this character forever. 1831 01:23:46,978 --> 01:23:49,198 But what would be the impact of removing it? 1832 01:23:49,241 --> 01:23:51,243 [Oren] Most of these people are creating these images 1833 01:23:51,287 --> 01:23:53,593 and are going to keep turning these things out. 1834 01:23:53,637 --> 01:23:56,031 Your bottomline request... 1835 01:23:56,074 --> 01:23:57,858 It's really not going to solve the issue. 1836 01:23:57,902 --> 01:24:00,383 It's not about this cartoon being on the hate symbols list. 1837 01:24:01,253 --> 01:24:02,254 [Oren] And it sucks! 1838 01:24:05,344 --> 01:24:06,563 -[Matt] All right, man. -[Oren] Thanks a lot. 1839 01:24:06,606 --> 01:24:07,868 -Yeah, thank you. -Good luck. 1840 01:24:11,655 --> 01:24:14,571 [tranquil music] 1841 01:24:20,272 --> 01:24:21,839 [Matt] I don't want the narrative 1842 01:24:21,882 --> 01:24:25,451 to be like I'm victimized here. 1843 01:24:25,495 --> 01:24:29,542 People have to deal with horror on a daily level. 1844 01:24:30,630 --> 01:24:32,502 Let's work together, you know. 1845 01:24:32,545 --> 01:24:34,678 Let's uh... let's uh... 1846 01:24:36,462 --> 01:24:39,030 figure this shit out, 'cause, uh... 1847 01:24:39,074 --> 01:24:41,206 it's not getting any better, you know. 1848 01:24:43,295 --> 01:24:45,341 All of the accounts of what happened to me 1849 01:24:45,384 --> 01:24:48,518 and my family over the years are enormous in scale 1850 01:24:48,561 --> 01:24:51,129 and historically rooted in a legacy of white supremacy. 1851 01:24:51,173 --> 01:24:54,219 [crowd singing] ♪ This little light of mine 1852 01:24:54,263 --> 01:24:56,395 ♪ I'm gonna let it shine 1853 01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:57,614 [reporter #7] Why? Why are you being provocative? 1854 01:24:57,657 --> 01:24:59,790 [man #7] I like trolling people. It's fun. 1855 01:24:59,833 --> 01:25:00,878 [reporter #8] You do it for fun. 1856 01:25:00,921 --> 01:25:02,140 Yeah, it's fun. 1857 01:25:02,184 --> 01:25:04,186 The aesthetics and ideals 1858 01:25:04,229 --> 01:25:06,536 that extremists are promoting online 1859 01:25:06,579 --> 01:25:08,190 with their use of Pepe the Frog 1860 01:25:08,233 --> 01:25:10,279 are now bleeding completely 1861 01:25:10,322 --> 01:25:13,412 into what you would otherwise describe as regular people. 1862 01:25:13,456 --> 01:25:14,544 [man #8] Yeah, go ahead and video me now. 1863 01:25:14,587 --> 01:25:16,589 I'm videoing you too, motherfucker. 1864 01:25:16,633 --> 01:25:18,243 You know what's coming to you people, right? 1865 01:25:18,287 --> 01:25:19,853 You know Trump is just the beginning. 1866 01:25:21,507 --> 01:25:23,770 You bearded monkeys have no place in America. 1867 01:25:25,946 --> 01:25:27,644 The ideology is premised 1868 01:25:27,687 --> 01:25:30,516 on justifying violence towards vulnerable people. 1869 01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:34,390 [crowd chanting] USA! USA! 1870 01:25:34,433 --> 01:25:36,566 [Adam] And when that seeps into the beliefs 1871 01:25:36,609 --> 01:25:38,176 of regular Americans, 1872 01:25:38,220 --> 01:25:41,005 you're heading for some place very bad. 1873 01:25:41,048 --> 01:25:43,050 [crowd jeering] 1874 01:25:47,229 --> 01:25:49,361 [ominous music] 1875 01:25:50,928 --> 01:25:52,451 You can't put the genie back in the bottle, 1876 01:25:52,495 --> 01:25:54,453 but you can send it somewhere else. 1877 01:25:56,281 --> 01:25:59,893 To actually change the narrative it would be necessary 1878 01:25:59,937 --> 01:26:03,070 to take the frog, to take Pepe, 1879 01:26:03,114 --> 01:26:05,812 and do something very different with him. 1880 01:26:07,379 --> 01:26:09,033 Something that could develop... 1881 01:26:09,947 --> 01:26:11,078 a meme of its own. 1882 01:26:12,297 --> 01:26:14,604 [somber music] 1883 01:26:17,041 --> 01:26:19,217 [protesters chanting in Chinese] 1884 01:26:27,443 --> 01:26:30,750 [Dale]Suddenly, out of nowhere, Pepe is being used in Hong Kong 1885 01:26:30,794 --> 01:26:34,885 as a symbol of freedom, democracy, and youth protest. 1886 01:26:34,928 --> 01:26:36,495 I was surprised as much as anyone. 1887 01:26:36,539 --> 01:26:39,237 -[protesters chanting] -[pops] 1888 01:26:42,066 --> 01:26:44,199 [Dale] This is the newer version of him. 1889 01:26:44,242 --> 01:26:45,461 He is wearing a hard hat 1890 01:26:45,504 --> 01:26:48,377 and he's wearing the outfit of the protesters. 1891 01:26:48,420 --> 01:26:50,944 [Dale] It was like a way to resist authoritarianism. 1892 01:26:54,426 --> 01:26:55,558 [explosion] 1893 01:26:57,560 --> 01:27:01,041 [Dale] Oh, he was crying from the tear gas. 1894 01:27:01,085 --> 01:27:03,522 [Matt] Pepe is now being spray painted on walls 1895 01:27:03,566 --> 01:27:05,872 as a symbol of hope. 1896 01:27:08,092 --> 01:27:10,747 [Dale] Like when does that actually happened in history? 1897 01:27:10,790 --> 01:27:12,314 You see it in movies all the time. 1898 01:27:12,357 --> 01:27:15,142 Like, "This is the symbol we're all gonna rally behind." 1899 01:27:15,186 --> 01:27:17,014 Yeah, this never happens in reality, 1900 01:27:17,057 --> 01:27:19,277 except now it happened to Pepe. 1901 01:27:19,321 --> 01:27:20,583 [chuckles] 1902 01:27:22,889 --> 01:27:24,935 [Dale] Pepe beams in everyone's brain 1903 01:27:24,978 --> 01:27:27,938 this idea of, like, the every man. 1904 01:27:27,981 --> 01:27:30,549 As you grow up, you realize that, in fact, 1905 01:27:30,593 --> 01:27:32,116 you can affect the world, 1906 01:27:32,159 --> 01:27:35,380 and you can use a small lever 1907 01:27:35,424 --> 01:27:38,122 to actually move a great amount of weight. 1908 01:27:38,165 --> 01:27:40,864 [crowd singing] 1909 01:27:40,907 --> 01:27:44,171 That's the power that Pepe has, right? Like... 1910 01:27:44,215 --> 01:27:47,610 "Oh, what's more worthless than cartoons?" 1911 01:27:47,653 --> 01:27:50,134 But like, "What's more powerful than Mickey Mouse?" 1912 01:27:50,177 --> 01:27:51,657 [laughing] Right? Like... 1913 01:27:51,701 --> 01:27:53,616 One of the most powerful things you can do 1914 01:27:53,659 --> 01:27:55,270 is create an iconic cartoon. 1915 01:27:57,794 --> 01:28:00,057 [in Chinese] 1916 01:28:25,561 --> 01:28:27,476 In a lot of traditional societies, 1917 01:28:27,519 --> 01:28:30,130 it was very standard to look for omens. 1918 01:28:30,174 --> 01:28:31,741 [bubbling] 1919 01:28:31,784 --> 01:28:35,222 [Greer]Signs, strange portents, things that were not expected 1920 01:28:35,266 --> 01:28:36,702 that suddenly came out of the blue. 1921 01:28:37,964 --> 01:28:39,314 Because that was a warning 1922 01:28:39,357 --> 01:28:40,880 something was shifting in society, 1923 01:28:40,924 --> 01:28:42,099 something had gone wrong, 1924 01:28:42,142 --> 01:28:43,709 or there was something building 1925 01:28:43,753 --> 01:28:45,842 that you need to know about before it arrived. 1926 01:28:47,409 --> 01:28:48,714 Pepe the frog is an omen. 1927 01:28:48,758 --> 01:28:49,802 [thunder crashes] 1928 01:28:49,846 --> 01:28:51,195 [Greer] We need to listen 1929 01:28:51,238 --> 01:28:53,632 because it's not going to go away... 1930 01:28:53,676 --> 01:28:55,765 until we hear the message that it has to say. 1931 01:28:55,808 --> 01:28:57,810 [ominous music] 1932 01:29:03,555 --> 01:29:05,731 [Matt] Nowadays, I've just been thinking 1933 01:29:05,775 --> 01:29:08,908 about this concept of a spiral. 1934 01:29:08,952 --> 01:29:12,651 Life unfolding in this kind of spirally nature. 1935 01:29:14,349 --> 01:29:17,743 So, I've been drawing in more kind of circular ways. 1936 01:29:19,832 --> 01:29:22,444 I think that there is kind of a collective consciousness 1937 01:29:22,487 --> 01:29:25,490 of darkness and light. 1938 01:29:25,534 --> 01:29:28,711 And the only thing that seems true to me 1939 01:29:28,754 --> 01:29:30,800 is that everything is going to change. 1940 01:29:30,843 --> 01:29:34,586 Like, Trump is not going to always be the president. 1941 01:29:34,630 --> 01:29:37,807 You know, Planet Earth isn't always gonna have people on it. 1942 01:29:37,850 --> 01:29:39,069 You know, who knows? 1943 01:29:39,112 --> 01:29:40,375 [both laughing] 1944 01:29:40,418 --> 01:29:41,941 [Matt] The positive notion of Pepe 1945 01:29:41,985 --> 01:29:44,509 is the possibility that you can change again. 1946 01:29:48,121 --> 01:29:50,820 [burbling] 1947 01:29:52,604 --> 01:29:54,954 Hard core happy place. 1948 01:29:54,998 --> 01:29:56,869 You got to go hardcore happy. 1949 01:30:03,310 --> 01:30:05,225 [Matt]I still like drawing him. 1950 01:30:05,269 --> 01:30:06,575 I go through waves, like, 1951 01:30:06,618 --> 01:30:09,578 I think last time I talked to you, Arthur, 1952 01:30:09,621 --> 01:30:10,796 I was sick of him. 1953 01:30:10,840 --> 01:30:12,276 But now, I like drawing him again. 1954 01:30:13,364 --> 01:30:15,714 [dreamy music] 1955 01:30:17,237 --> 01:30:19,544 [breathes deeply] 1956 01:30:22,547 --> 01:30:24,941 [tranquil music] 1957 01:30:24,984 --> 01:30:26,595 [water sloshing lightly] 1958 01:30:34,690 --> 01:30:37,257 [breathes deeply] 1959 01:30:40,522 --> 01:30:42,132 [splashing] 1960 01:30:42,915 --> 01:30:44,917 [uplifting music]