1 00:00:59,738 --> 00:01:00,947 - Good evening. 2 00:01:00,948 --> 00:01:03,074 It's been six years since a young GI stepped 3 00:01:03,075 --> 00:01:04,784 onto the tarmac at Idlewild Airport 4 00:01:04,785 --> 00:01:07,245 causing an international sensation, 5 00:01:07,246 --> 00:01:08,746 just arrived from Copenhagen, 6 00:01:08,747 --> 00:01:10,081 Christine Jorgensen was thought 7 00:01:10,082 --> 00:01:13,585 to be the first American to have successfully changed sex. 8 00:01:16,463 --> 00:01:18,006 You might be wondering where people go 9 00:01:18,007 --> 00:01:20,759 when they are experiencing problems of a sexual nature. 10 00:01:21,677 --> 00:01:23,845 - [Host] Just around the corner from our studios, 11 00:01:23,846 --> 00:01:25,430 an experimental research team 12 00:01:25,431 --> 00:01:27,640 at UCLA is interviewing dozens 13 00:01:27,641 --> 00:01:30,978 of people about emerging problems of sex and gender. 14 00:01:32,354 --> 00:01:35,316 One of their patients has presented a unique puzzle. 15 00:01:36,191 --> 00:01:40,069 For two years, our first guest, Agnes, was interviewed 16 00:01:40,070 --> 00:01:43,114 by doctors, Robert Stoller and Harold Garfinkel, 17 00:01:43,115 --> 00:01:45,199 telling them she was born a boy 18 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,661 but began growing breasts at puberty. 19 00:01:49,288 --> 00:01:52,874 Recently, she returned to tell a different story, 20 00:01:52,875 --> 00:01:56,670 forcing doctors to retract years of published research. 21 00:02:00,716 --> 00:02:03,093 We will talk to Agnes right after the break. 22 00:02:07,681 --> 00:02:10,975 In our collaboration, we've been thinking together 23 00:02:10,976 --> 00:02:14,854 about the legacy of Agnes's case for a long time. 24 00:02:14,855 --> 00:02:16,773 Yeah, this is why we love having you in the project, 25 00:02:16,774 --> 00:02:19,400 because to be able to talk to people who also know 26 00:02:19,401 --> 00:02:21,986 that feeling of the archive, where you can't quit. 27 00:02:21,987 --> 00:02:24,698 - How did you first encounter Agnes? 28 00:02:33,665 --> 00:02:36,918 - [Narrator] I first encountered Agnes in graduate school. 29 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,630 I read a case study about a young trans girl 30 00:02:40,631 --> 00:02:43,007 in the 1950s who lied her way 31 00:02:43,008 --> 00:02:46,303 into the UCLA gender clinic to get access to surgery. 32 00:02:47,971 --> 00:02:51,141 (gentle upbeat music) 33 00:02:57,022 --> 00:02:59,482 Agnes is remembered in two ways, 34 00:02:59,483 --> 00:03:01,150 either as a cautionary tale 35 00:03:01,151 --> 00:03:02,610 about the untrustworthiness 36 00:03:02,611 --> 00:03:06,656 of trans people or as an icon and folk hero 37 00:03:06,657 --> 00:03:09,284 who navigated a system designed to exclude her. 38 00:03:12,996 --> 00:03:15,164 In the years since I first read the case, 39 00:03:15,165 --> 00:03:17,959 I've become obsessed with our attachment to the story 40 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,754 of Agnes as exceptional and I worry 41 00:03:21,755 --> 00:03:25,008 about what and who else has been lost along the way. 42 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,061 - One of the weird things about Agnes is she pops up 43 00:03:37,062 --> 00:03:40,731 over and over and over again in trans writing from, 44 00:03:40,732 --> 00:03:43,901 you know, really the time at which she's, you know, 45 00:03:43,902 --> 00:03:46,195 doing interviews with Garfinkel and Stoller, 46 00:03:46,196 --> 00:03:47,822 all the way into the 80s and the 90s 47 00:03:47,823 --> 00:03:50,825 and the 2000s and I always wanted to read more. 48 00:03:50,826 --> 00:03:53,077 I always wanted to go to UCLA and find out more, 49 00:03:53,078 --> 00:03:55,246 but I also have this sort of deep mistrust 50 00:03:55,247 --> 00:03:57,832 of that whole endeavor from the real beginning 51 00:03:57,833 --> 00:03:59,917 and it's been interesting over the years 52 00:03:59,918 --> 00:04:03,129 to find out that I think a lot of people share that feeling. 53 00:04:03,130 --> 00:04:04,464 - It used to be so simple: 54 00:04:04,465 --> 00:04:06,716 you were either a boy or you were a girl. 55 00:04:06,717 --> 00:04:08,342 Growing up in the 1940s, 56 00:04:08,343 --> 00:04:10,720 Agnes always knew she was different. 57 00:04:10,721 --> 00:04:12,513 - I was the youngest of four children. 58 00:04:12,514 --> 00:04:15,141 My father was a machinist. 59 00:04:15,142 --> 00:04:17,351 He died when I was quite young, 60 00:04:17,352 --> 00:04:20,229 9 or 10 years old, 61 00:04:20,230 --> 00:04:21,814 I suppose it was all sort of normal. 62 00:04:21,815 --> 00:04:23,691 I mean, nothing out of the ordinary. 63 00:04:23,692 --> 00:04:24,984 - Did you go to school? 64 00:04:24,985 --> 00:04:26,486 - I dropped out at some point 65 00:04:26,487 --> 00:04:29,238 because I figured it wouldn't be very useful 66 00:04:29,239 --> 00:04:33,451 to have a high school diploma with a different name on it. 67 00:04:33,452 --> 00:04:35,661 - I wanted to frame out what we're doing a little bit, 68 00:04:35,662 --> 00:04:40,041 because the flip for me to the talk show is in part a nod 69 00:04:40,042 --> 00:04:42,793 to the fact that I think from many people of our generation, 70 00:04:42,794 --> 00:04:44,462 the talk show was the place where many 71 00:04:44,463 --> 00:04:48,841 of us first encountered gender nonconforming subjects. 72 00:04:48,842 --> 00:04:50,051 - Yeah. I mean, I feel like I grew up 73 00:04:50,052 --> 00:04:51,886 in the golden age of talk shows. 74 00:04:51,887 --> 00:04:54,722 I mean, they were just on continuously throughout the day. 75 00:04:54,723 --> 00:04:58,601 So if you were sick and you know, stayed home from school, 76 00:04:58,602 --> 00:05:00,353 it was very likely that you could just watch a string 77 00:05:00,354 --> 00:05:02,230 of talk shows. 78 00:05:02,231 --> 00:05:03,148 You know, there were some 79 00:05:03,149 --> 00:05:06,901 that were clearly more progressive, you know, Joan Rivers. 80 00:05:06,902 --> 00:05:10,613 - Today's show is all about sexually confusing stories. 81 00:05:10,614 --> 00:05:11,656 - And then there was, you know, 82 00:05:11,657 --> 00:05:13,741 more exploitative ones where, 83 00:05:13,742 --> 00:05:15,535 you know, people's gender identities 84 00:05:15,536 --> 00:05:18,538 were being sensationalized and they were being - electing - 85 00:05:18,539 --> 00:05:21,207 to out themselves on national television 86 00:05:21,208 --> 00:05:23,918 for whatever kind of financial incentives. 87 00:05:23,919 --> 00:05:28,298 It was helpful to have some view 88 00:05:29,550 --> 00:05:33,135 into the possibility that trans people existed 89 00:05:33,136 --> 00:05:35,930 on television, but by and large, 90 00:05:35,931 --> 00:05:39,308 the ostracization that those subjects faced 91 00:05:39,309 --> 00:05:42,186 in putting themselves out there and I can't help 92 00:05:42,187 --> 00:05:44,647 but think that they were doing it for us. 93 00:05:44,648 --> 00:05:47,692 - Are you familiar with Christine Jorgensen? 94 00:05:47,693 --> 00:05:49,986 - Yes, I do read the newspaper. 95 00:05:49,987 --> 00:05:54,323 When Jorgensen came back from Europe, 96 00:05:54,324 --> 00:05:57,285 I had something tangible to go by. 97 00:05:57,286 --> 00:06:01,707 I figured I could do something like that myself. 98 00:06:02,749 --> 00:06:04,750 For Agnes, that it was all new. 99 00:06:04,751 --> 00:06:09,672 That Christine Jorgensen was the first time she was seeing 100 00:06:09,673 --> 00:06:11,300 somebody and realizing 101 00:06:12,301 --> 00:06:15,428 that there was another person out there like her. 102 00:06:15,429 --> 00:06:17,013 - Ah, Christine Jorgensen. 103 00:06:17,014 --> 00:06:18,431 Okay, here we go. 104 00:06:18,432 --> 00:06:22,310 Picture this, the most famous woman in the world in 1952, 105 00:06:22,311 --> 00:06:23,853 the most famous woman 106 00:06:23,854 --> 00:06:27,898 in the world knocking atomic bomb tests off the front page 107 00:06:27,899 --> 00:06:30,568 of newspapers is a trans woman. 108 00:06:30,569 --> 00:06:32,361 We don't exactly know how 109 00:06:32,362 --> 00:06:35,615 but her story was leaked to the press. 110 00:06:35,616 --> 00:06:37,992 Poor Christine, she played the perfect part. 111 00:06:37,993 --> 00:06:40,579 (upbeat music) 112 00:06:43,123 --> 00:06:44,457 - [News presenter] Christine Jorgensen, 113 00:06:44,458 --> 00:06:46,876 who used to answer to George, creates quite a stir 114 00:06:46,877 --> 00:06:49,754 as she returns home to New York from Copenhagen. 115 00:06:49,755 --> 00:06:52,590 - So we have this incredible footage of her landing 116 00:06:52,591 --> 00:06:56,636 in New York at Idlewild Airport and, you know, 117 00:06:56,637 --> 00:06:59,305 coming off the airplane, like, 'oh my goodness, 118 00:06:59,306 --> 00:07:00,848 what is this media storm? 119 00:07:00,849 --> 00:07:04,810 Oh, no, thank goodness, I'm dressed gorgeously' 120 00:07:04,811 --> 00:07:07,146 and she has this incredible screen presence. 121 00:07:07,147 --> 00:07:09,565 I mean, Christine Jorgensen is, you know, 122 00:07:09,566 --> 00:07:12,360 almost like the Marilyn Monroe 123 00:07:12,361 --> 00:07:15,404 of the moment and she comes out very like, 'well, 124 00:07:15,405 --> 00:07:18,450 I'm just happy to be here and back on American soil. ' 125 00:07:20,744 --> 00:07:23,330 - I'm very impressed by everyone coming. 126 00:07:24,706 --> 00:07:27,500 - [Reporter] Christine, are you happy to be home? 127 00:07:27,501 --> 00:07:31,921 - Yes, of course, what American wouldn't be? 128 00:07:31,922 --> 00:07:34,590 - And she just has this perfect persona 129 00:07:34,591 --> 00:07:37,218 to personify post-war America. 130 00:07:37,219 --> 00:07:40,763 America, the country so free that you, a man, 131 00:07:40,764 --> 00:07:42,098 can become a woman. 132 00:07:42,099 --> 00:07:44,558 Well, except not in America because she had 133 00:07:44,559 --> 00:07:45,394 to go to Denmark. 134 00:07:45,394 --> 00:07:46,228 Well, oh, well, 135 00:07:46,229 --> 00:07:47,269 we'll just, we'll look over 136 00:07:47,270 --> 00:07:50,481 that fact and the media is fascinated, right? 137 00:07:50,482 --> 00:07:53,567 The term transsexual is still in its infancy 138 00:07:53,568 --> 00:07:56,320 and so a lot of people are not exactly sure 139 00:07:56,321 --> 00:07:57,822 what to make of her and there's a lot 140 00:07:57,823 --> 00:08:00,658 of terrible salacious kind of tabloid coverage. 141 00:08:00,659 --> 00:08:02,576 Well, isn't she really just a man? 142 00:08:02,577 --> 00:08:05,121 And my God, is she going to marry a man? 143 00:08:05,122 --> 00:08:06,455 And how will that work? 144 00:08:06,456 --> 00:08:09,166 You know, and things that were fit to print and things 145 00:08:09,167 --> 00:08:11,335 that were not fit to print and Christine really, you know, 146 00:08:11,336 --> 00:08:14,046 in some ways is forced into this impossible position. 147 00:08:14,047 --> 00:08:16,924 She senses, rightly, that she has a chance 148 00:08:16,925 --> 00:08:20,720 to make it in life and be a celebrity and be a persona 149 00:08:20,721 --> 00:08:23,514 but the only way to do that is to lean 150 00:08:23,515 --> 00:08:26,016 into the fact that everyone wants a piece of her. 151 00:08:26,017 --> 00:08:27,518 - Have you been offered a movie contract? 152 00:08:27,519 --> 00:08:29,770 - Yes, but I haven't accepted it. 153 00:08:29,771 --> 00:08:31,021 - It was very striking to see in all 154 00:08:31,022 --> 00:08:32,523 of these transcripts everyone 155 00:08:32,524 --> 00:08:35,609 references Christine Jorgensen in some way, right? 156 00:08:35,610 --> 00:08:38,195 And I think that really got us to this connection 157 00:08:38,196 --> 00:08:40,990 of thinking of Christine Jorgensen on the Mike Wallace Show. 158 00:08:40,991 --> 00:08:41,825 - Right, and you know, 159 00:08:41,826 --> 00:08:43,743 the structure of the Mike Wallace show is so interesting. 160 00:08:43,744 --> 00:08:46,328 The Mike Wallace Interview in particular, 161 00:08:46,329 --> 00:08:51,334 he identifies as a show about the current moment's 162 00:08:52,711 --> 00:08:55,880 most extraordinary and curious people. 163 00:08:55,881 --> 00:08:56,715 - This is Mike Wallace with 164 00:08:56,715 --> 00:08:57,632 another television portrait 165 00:08:57,633 --> 00:08:59,925 from our gallery of colorful people. 166 00:08:59,926 --> 00:09:01,510 - [Chase] What's striking to me 167 00:09:01,511 --> 00:09:03,387 about the relationship between Mike Wallace 168 00:09:03,388 --> 00:09:04,347 and Garfinkel is 169 00:09:04,348 --> 00:09:08,184 that the Mike Wallace Interview happens from '57 to '60, 170 00:09:08,185 --> 00:09:12,396 exactly the same time that Garfinkel is at UCLA. 171 00:09:12,397 --> 00:09:13,856 - [Agnes] It was was either 172 00:09:13,857 --> 00:09:15,107 that I wasn't gonna see him anymore- 173 00:09:15,108 --> 00:09:17,610 - (indistinct) 174 00:09:17,611 --> 00:09:18,861 No I wasn't going to tell him. 175 00:09:18,862 --> 00:09:20,362 - [Agnes] So I told. 176 00:09:20,363 --> 00:09:21,530 - So I told him. 177 00:09:21,531 --> 00:09:22,531 - [Agnes] Because I couldn't do the other, 178 00:09:22,532 --> 00:09:24,283 I tried the other first but I couldn't do that so- 179 00:09:24,284 --> 00:09:29,288 - Because I couldn't do the other first, I told him that. 180 00:09:29,289 --> 00:09:30,123 - [Agnes] Oh well. 181 00:09:30,124 --> 00:09:31,749 - Well. 182 00:09:31,750 --> 00:09:32,958 - [Agnes] Well, of course not (indistinct) 183 00:09:32,959 --> 00:09:34,127 - Well of course not. 184 00:09:36,922 --> 00:09:38,298 - Are you feeling impatient? 185 00:09:39,257 --> 00:09:41,509 - Not impatient in the sense that I can't wait, 186 00:09:41,510 --> 00:09:42,927 but impatient in the sense 187 00:09:42,928 --> 00:09:44,679 that I wonder what I'm waiting for. 188 00:09:45,764 --> 00:09:46,973 - You are very smart. 189 00:09:48,266 --> 00:09:49,184 - You know, there's a difference 190 00:09:49,185 --> 00:09:52,813 between being smart and having all the information. 191 00:09:55,482 --> 00:10:00,277 - UCLA is a really fascinating character in this history, 192 00:10:00,278 --> 00:10:04,406 partially because it's a super interdisciplinary space 193 00:10:04,407 --> 00:10:06,784 and so it's this wide open clinic 194 00:10:06,785 --> 00:10:08,577 where they're seeing intersex folks, 195 00:10:08,578 --> 00:10:11,539 gay and lesbian folks, trans folks 196 00:10:11,540 --> 00:10:14,500 and people who aren't sure or don't necessarily explain 197 00:10:14,501 --> 00:10:16,001 what they identify as 198 00:10:16,002 --> 00:10:18,921 and the doctors are not especially concerned 199 00:10:18,922 --> 00:10:20,047 about the differences, 200 00:10:20,048 --> 00:10:20,882 but I think that's one 201 00:10:20,883 --> 00:10:24,176 of the reasons why UCLA ends up being so interesting. 202 00:10:24,177 --> 00:10:26,720 - [Kristen] Harold Garfinkel had died in 2011 203 00:10:26,721 --> 00:10:28,681 and I knew that there was a sociologist 204 00:10:28,682 --> 00:10:31,308 who had been gifted sort of all of his papers. 205 00:10:31,309 --> 00:10:33,644 - [Chase] Kristen and I started visiting the archive 206 00:10:33,645 --> 00:10:35,521 over and over again in part helping 207 00:10:35,522 --> 00:10:36,897 to organize the content 208 00:10:36,898 --> 00:10:39,525 and all the while we were looking for Agnes. 209 00:10:39,526 --> 00:10:40,860 - You know, the funny story that we like 210 00:10:40,861 --> 00:10:42,486 to tell is we found everything 211 00:10:42,487 --> 00:10:45,573 that we found in the last moments. 212 00:10:45,574 --> 00:10:48,784 - There was a large metal filing cabinet 213 00:10:48,785 --> 00:10:50,536 that had long been rusted shut. 214 00:10:50,537 --> 00:10:55,542 We pried the drawer open and found the entirety 215 00:10:56,126 --> 00:10:59,254 of Agnes's case files 216 00:11:04,134 --> 00:11:06,719 and in the back of the filing cabinet 217 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,512 were other case studies of gender nonconforming people 218 00:11:08,513 --> 00:11:10,348 who never make it into the research. 219 00:11:11,391 --> 00:11:14,561 (gentle upbeat music) 220 00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:42,671 - It's weird because UCLA is both the archive, 221 00:11:42,672 --> 00:11:45,591 the place where the records are held, 222 00:11:45,592 --> 00:11:48,135 but also the place where all of this went down, 223 00:11:48,136 --> 00:11:51,389 where Agnes was, where Stoller was, where Garfinkel was. 224 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,523 It feels a little haunted sometimes. 225 00:12:02,859 --> 00:12:04,526 So I think there's a way 226 00:12:04,527 --> 00:12:05,694 that I always feel like I'm looking 227 00:12:05,695 --> 00:12:08,656 over my shoulder even though an archive is sort 228 00:12:08,657 --> 00:12:12,201 of the most natural place for me to hang out as a scholar, 229 00:12:12,202 --> 00:12:16,163 it feels like you can't fully walk in as yourself. 230 00:12:16,164 --> 00:12:18,499 It's important to walk in as a researcher, 231 00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:21,293 as someone with a PhD, as a specialist, as a scholar, 232 00:12:21,294 --> 00:12:23,295 like that's your ticket in 233 00:12:23,296 --> 00:12:24,880 because you don't want the same ticket 234 00:12:24,881 --> 00:12:27,425 in that Agnes had or Barbara had. 235 00:12:29,344 --> 00:12:31,261 - Even though I was raised by a single father. . 236 00:12:31,262 --> 00:12:32,304 I love how everything she does, 237 00:12:32,305 --> 00:12:34,056 it's like, I know where you want to go 238 00:12:34,057 --> 00:12:35,849 and I'm not going to let you. 239 00:12:35,850 --> 00:12:37,559 - Yeah, that's exactly right. 240 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:40,521 - [Crew Member] C mark, I mean, D mark, sorry. 241 00:12:40,522 --> 00:12:42,606 - When did you decide to make the change? 242 00:12:42,607 --> 00:12:45,526 - Well, I've been living as a woman for six months now 243 00:12:45,527 --> 00:12:48,654 but it's been years since anyone looked twice at me. 244 00:12:48,655 --> 00:12:52,116 Even as a man, I was very feminine, 245 00:12:52,117 --> 00:12:55,202 plucked brows, bleached hair, painted nails. 246 00:12:55,203 --> 00:12:56,662 One day I realized that people were going 247 00:12:56,663 --> 00:12:59,039 to react to me no matter what I did. 248 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,166 So I might as well live more truthfully. 249 00:13:01,167 --> 00:13:02,167 For myself. 250 00:13:03,044 --> 00:13:04,004 - Tell me about your childhood. 251 00:13:04,005 --> 00:13:05,963 Were you close with your parents? 252 00:13:05,964 --> 00:13:07,840 - My mother died when I was little 253 00:13:07,841 --> 00:13:10,592 but even though I was raised by a single father, 254 00:13:10,593 --> 00:13:13,220 I always had my dolls and dishes. 255 00:13:13,221 --> 00:13:16,265 - How did you go about finding others in your situation? 256 00:13:16,266 --> 00:13:19,601 - When we were young, we didn't know about homosexuality 257 00:13:19,602 --> 00:13:21,603 but we knew we were feminine. 258 00:13:21,604 --> 00:13:24,481 We knew we were different and we found each other. 259 00:13:24,482 --> 00:13:26,984 What I love about Barbara is exactly that, 260 00:13:26,985 --> 00:13:31,155 that she is so networked that she rebukes this notion 261 00:13:31,156 --> 00:13:34,533 that trans people have to be isolated or lonely. 262 00:13:34,534 --> 00:13:36,702 - So there are many of you then? 263 00:13:36,703 --> 00:13:40,497 - I'd say I know 22 of the 36 women 264 00:13:40,498 --> 00:13:42,541 in town who have had the operation. 265 00:13:42,542 --> 00:13:44,001 Even that Hollywood star. 266 00:13:44,002 --> 00:13:46,003 Well, I shouldn't say her name. 267 00:13:46,004 --> 00:13:47,713 Whenever we hear about someone 268 00:13:47,714 --> 00:13:49,548 who's been arrested for cross-dressing, 269 00:13:49,549 --> 00:13:51,759 we reach out, there's a group of us. 270 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,803 We do hospital visits after someone's operation 271 00:13:54,804 --> 00:13:56,221 so they won't be alone. 272 00:13:56,222 --> 00:13:59,349 We talk to each other about what hospitals to avoid. 273 00:13:59,350 --> 00:14:00,809 I can always tell who's had 274 00:14:00,810 --> 00:14:02,436 which procedure by how nice the room is 275 00:14:02,437 --> 00:14:04,229 or how long the stay. 276 00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:05,481 - But how do you find each other? 277 00:14:05,482 --> 00:14:07,191 - Well, it's all about trust. 278 00:14:07,192 --> 00:14:08,942 Once you're in the network, 279 00:14:08,943 --> 00:14:12,362 you realize it just goes and goes and goes. 280 00:14:12,363 --> 00:14:13,781 We're like a club. 281 00:14:13,782 --> 00:14:16,241 What I loved about playing Barbara, 282 00:14:16,242 --> 00:14:17,576 why I would like to spend more time 283 00:14:17,577 --> 00:14:20,871 with her, is the confidence with which she discusses 284 00:14:20,872 --> 00:14:25,709 not only networking, but dating, passing. 285 00:14:25,710 --> 00:14:29,004 She has a self-possession that I don't have 286 00:14:29,005 --> 00:14:31,173 in real life out in the world 287 00:14:31,174 --> 00:14:32,382 and that's the kind of part that, 288 00:14:32,383 --> 00:14:34,093 that's the fun part 289 00:14:34,094 --> 00:14:36,804 because that's where you get to be different. 290 00:14:36,805 --> 00:14:38,223 - [Host] You say we a lot. 291 00:14:39,057 --> 00:14:41,017 - I'm not in this work alone. 292 00:14:42,894 --> 00:14:45,104 - Do you know other people like you? 293 00:14:45,105 --> 00:14:47,773 - Well, no, I don't. 294 00:14:47,774 --> 00:14:49,399 - And why is that? 295 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,486 - I suppose I've just never met another person 296 00:14:52,487 --> 00:14:54,363 like me before. 297 00:14:54,364 --> 00:14:58,325 It's so interesting that Agnes was anonymous 298 00:14:58,326 --> 00:15:02,162 and I believe that she 299 00:15:02,163 --> 00:15:04,790 in many ways represents a generation 300 00:15:04,791 --> 00:15:09,796 of trans women who were encouraged to disappear. 301 00:15:11,005 --> 00:15:14,091 - For a trans woman to get access to surgery in the 1960s, 302 00:15:14,092 --> 00:15:17,344 she had to swear she would never tell anyone ever again 303 00:15:17,345 --> 00:15:21,807 that she had been trans and that she would leave the life 304 00:15:21,808 --> 00:15:23,267 and you really saw that in cities, 305 00:15:23,268 --> 00:15:25,853 people would leave neighborhoods, stop doing sex work, 306 00:15:25,854 --> 00:15:28,689 try to get married, try to disappear. 307 00:15:28,690 --> 00:15:29,524 - Hi. 308 00:15:29,524 --> 00:15:30,358 - Hello. 309 00:15:30,359 --> 00:15:31,483 - Such a treat to be with you today. 310 00:15:31,484 --> 00:15:32,318 - Always. 311 00:15:32,318 --> 00:15:33,153 - [Chase] Thank you for coming. 312 00:15:33,153 --> 00:15:33,987 - Thank you, Chase. 313 00:15:33,988 --> 00:15:38,532 - You know, because this project flips the scene 314 00:15:38,533 --> 00:15:41,827 of the clinical office with the stage of the talk show, 315 00:15:41,828 --> 00:15:44,288 to think about how meaning gets produced 316 00:15:44,289 --> 00:15:47,040 about trans people in different environments. 317 00:15:47,041 --> 00:15:48,876 You know, when we were talking about the feature, 318 00:15:48,877 --> 00:15:51,753 you were like, I'm tired of telling certain kinds 319 00:15:51,754 --> 00:15:55,132 of stories about my life and I don't want to do it anymore. 320 00:15:55,133 --> 00:15:57,634 - I get a little fatigued about my story 321 00:15:57,635 --> 00:16:00,470 because my story and telling my story, 322 00:16:00,471 --> 00:16:02,764 it keeps getting positioned as sort 323 00:16:02,765 --> 00:16:04,516 of this exceptional story. 324 00:16:04,517 --> 00:16:06,393 - As a trans person in the world with you, 325 00:16:06,394 --> 00:16:10,230 I had this immediate bodily reaction, 326 00:16:10,231 --> 00:16:13,400 which was like, yeah, totally get it. 327 00:16:13,401 --> 00:16:16,778 Much like Christine Jorgensen before her transformation, 328 00:16:16,779 --> 00:16:19,364 our next guest was a military man. 329 00:16:19,365 --> 00:16:21,158 - Spent most of my teenage years 330 00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:25,245 in my father's church doing evangelical work. 331 00:16:25,246 --> 00:16:26,371 - Do you remember at 332 00:16:26,372 --> 00:16:28,708 what age did you start having these feelings? 333 00:16:30,668 --> 00:16:32,420 - I've always known. 334 00:16:33,796 --> 00:16:38,717 - Georgia is a resourceful woman. 335 00:16:38,718 --> 00:16:43,013 I think like many trans women from her time 336 00:16:43,014 --> 00:16:45,057 and even before who didn't have the language 337 00:16:45,058 --> 00:16:50,063 or the policy or the access, they had to be resourceful. 338 00:16:50,271 --> 00:16:52,856 - We have this sort of white-washed image 339 00:16:52,857 --> 00:16:55,692 of the first trans people. 340 00:16:55,693 --> 00:16:57,778 We see folks like Georgia, 341 00:16:57,779 --> 00:17:00,322 the kind of person that maybe we feel surprised to meet, 342 00:17:00,323 --> 00:17:04,743 a Black trans woman is going to this very conservative, 343 00:17:04,744 --> 00:17:08,163 racially normative kind of space 344 00:17:08,164 --> 00:17:11,625 where she's making it in to go toe-to-toe 345 00:17:11,626 --> 00:17:15,712 with these titans of mid-century American social science. 346 00:17:15,713 --> 00:17:18,131 I mean, does it get any straighter and whiter than that? 347 00:17:18,132 --> 00:17:20,385 - Do you ever tell people the truth about yourself? 348 00:17:22,679 --> 00:17:27,182 - Sometimes I tell people I'm a man just 349 00:17:27,183 --> 00:17:29,601 to hear them say, I'm pulling their leg. 350 00:17:29,602 --> 00:17:34,231 So that there's my life. 351 00:17:34,232 --> 00:17:35,232 You know, 352 00:17:37,402 --> 00:17:41,363 it's wild to be a part of a project like this 353 00:17:41,364 --> 00:17:43,865 that kind of blows open a vault 354 00:17:43,866 --> 00:17:45,784 of all this information and you're. . 355 00:17:45,785 --> 00:17:48,161 and people are like, did that really happen? 356 00:17:48,162 --> 00:17:50,080 Or is this really true? 357 00:17:50,081 --> 00:17:53,500 And the reality is, 358 00:17:53,501 --> 00:17:58,506 is that we live in a world that has been dominated 359 00:18:00,174 --> 00:18:05,179 by stories being told by white people, 360 00:18:06,264 --> 00:18:09,891 by the people who have the power, 361 00:18:09,892 --> 00:18:12,811 the most power within white communities. 362 00:18:12,812 --> 00:18:17,065 We have heard the story told by the hunter 363 00:18:17,066 --> 00:18:19,276 and not by the lion and not 364 00:18:19,277 --> 00:18:21,945 by the lions who not only fought back 365 00:18:21,946 --> 00:18:26,491 but got away. And so I think that not only these stories, 366 00:18:26,492 --> 00:18:29,161 but this just really inspires me to think about 367 00:18:29,162 --> 00:18:33,790 how many more stories are there out there 368 00:18:33,791 --> 00:18:35,584 that we don't know about. 369 00:18:35,585 --> 00:18:38,587 - The archive that we get is really limited in that way. 370 00:18:38,588 --> 00:18:43,593 These architects at UCLA that are building these new ways 371 00:18:43,926 --> 00:18:45,052 of thinking, that are 372 00:18:45,053 --> 00:18:47,179 founding these new schools of thought, 373 00:18:47,180 --> 00:18:49,306 they don't want to talk about racial diversity. 374 00:18:49,307 --> 00:18:50,807 They don't want to talk about racism. 375 00:18:50,808 --> 00:18:52,309 They don't want to talk about class. 376 00:18:52,310 --> 00:18:54,394 They want to produce mirror images 377 00:18:54,395 --> 00:18:57,481 of the ideals of American culture at that time: 378 00:18:57,482 --> 00:19:01,526 beautiful, white, middle-class, heterosexuals. 379 00:19:01,527 --> 00:19:03,528 - Not all of our guests were surrounded 380 00:19:03,529 --> 00:19:05,197 by like-minded individuals, 381 00:19:05,198 --> 00:19:07,574 meet Henry, born in 1917. 382 00:19:07,575 --> 00:19:08,700 Nope. 383 00:19:08,701 --> 00:19:12,496 Meet Henry, born a girl in Long Beach, California. 384 00:19:12,497 --> 00:19:14,706 - They always say that, 'born a girl' 385 00:19:14,707 --> 00:19:15,541 - So rude. 386 00:19:15,542 --> 00:19:16,750 - Back in the articles I was in in the 90s- 387 00:19:16,751 --> 00:19:17,876 - Oh yeah. 388 00:19:17,877 --> 00:19:19,795 - It would be, a girl, born a girl. 389 00:19:19,796 --> 00:19:21,171 - About you? 390 00:19:21,172 --> 00:19:22,882 - Even in the 90s, yes. 391 00:19:24,675 --> 00:19:28,053 I was born in Southern California in 1917. 392 00:19:28,054 --> 00:19:32,182 I worked as an engineer at Lockheed. 393 00:19:32,183 --> 00:19:34,309 Well, Henry, interestingly enough, 394 00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:36,103 I believe was interviewed 395 00:19:36,104 --> 00:19:40,232 by Harold Garfinkel the year I was born. 396 00:19:40,233 --> 00:19:43,985 - What is it like for you to embody a trans man 397 00:19:43,986 --> 00:19:47,989 from the 1950s who was also writing about his life? 398 00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:50,075 - Well, you know, I respect that, 399 00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:52,619 we have that in common, he had that impulse 400 00:19:52,620 --> 00:19:55,247 to put pen to paper and to put his thoughts 401 00:19:55,248 --> 00:19:57,874 to paper and he knew that his experience was important. 402 00:19:57,875 --> 00:19:59,126 It was unique. 403 00:19:59,127 --> 00:20:03,422 I am a poet and I was writing poetry, 404 00:20:03,423 --> 00:20:06,425 doing readings in the Bay Area since, you know, 405 00:20:06,426 --> 00:20:08,218 since I arrived there in 1977. 406 00:20:08,219 --> 00:20:10,679 I connected right away with the kind of beat, 407 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,849 neo-beat community in North Beach. 408 00:20:13,850 --> 00:20:16,101 The kind of poetry I write is very non-narrative, 409 00:20:16,102 --> 00:20:17,978 it's not so much telling a story about my life 410 00:20:17,979 --> 00:20:19,438 or my feelings. 411 00:20:19,439 --> 00:20:20,814 I don't really write that kind of thing 412 00:20:20,815 --> 00:20:25,485 but I saw that there was a need, there was nothing, 413 00:20:25,486 --> 00:20:28,947 there was very little out there and so I think, 414 00:20:28,948 --> 00:20:30,365 and most of the things 415 00:20:30,366 --> 00:20:33,243 that had been written were ghost-written 416 00:20:33,244 --> 00:20:34,995 but I never saw them talk about, 417 00:20:34,996 --> 00:20:37,497 I never read anything where they wrote very much 418 00:20:37,498 --> 00:20:41,751 about the hormones and to me, the hormones, 419 00:20:41,752 --> 00:20:46,757 in my case, the testosterone, was the access of change. 420 00:20:47,884 --> 00:20:51,011 - As far as I can tell, it was rarer for trans men 421 00:20:51,012 --> 00:20:52,512 to get on T and part of that is 422 00:20:52,513 --> 00:20:55,182 because trans men tended to be more isolated 423 00:20:55,183 --> 00:20:58,894 and they were more able to pass 424 00:20:58,895 --> 00:21:00,604 in some ways because there were categories 425 00:21:00,605 --> 00:21:03,648 of masculinity in-between female 426 00:21:03,649 --> 00:21:06,067 and male in which men could travel. 427 00:21:06,068 --> 00:21:07,944 - I grew up in the Midwest. 428 00:21:07,945 --> 00:21:09,571 I was a tomboy mostly. 429 00:21:09,572 --> 00:21:11,198 - What would you do if something as common 430 00:21:11,199 --> 00:21:15,160 as using the lavatory caused an impossible predicament? 431 00:21:15,161 --> 00:21:16,995 Denny faces this problem every day 432 00:21:16,996 --> 00:21:18,663 on the floor of the factory. 433 00:21:18,664 --> 00:21:20,123 - World War II made it possible 434 00:21:20,124 --> 00:21:23,710 for women to wear slacks, you know, the dirty shirt effect. 435 00:21:23,711 --> 00:21:26,671 - Making use of the facilities at work is unavoidable. 436 00:21:26,672 --> 00:21:28,924 What would you do if you got caught? 437 00:21:28,925 --> 00:21:30,592 - Well for all you know, it could have been shot off 438 00:21:30,593 --> 00:21:31,885 in the war and, you know, 439 00:21:31,886 --> 00:21:33,428 I just don't have the money to build it back. 440 00:21:33,429 --> 00:21:35,722 I have a wife, I have a home 441 00:21:35,723 --> 00:21:39,643 and if anybody is fresh enough to ask, I'd gag it up a bit. 442 00:21:39,644 --> 00:21:43,522 Denny was a working class guy. 443 00:21:43,523 --> 00:21:44,564 He was kind of a tomboy. 444 00:21:44,565 --> 00:21:46,566 So he's kind of an in-betweener. 445 00:21:46,567 --> 00:21:51,112 For a lot of years I passed intermittently. 446 00:21:51,113 --> 00:21:54,366 So, you know, I wasn't on testosterone 447 00:21:54,367 --> 00:21:55,951 and didn't have any top surgery 448 00:21:55,952 --> 00:21:58,245 but I looked like a boy and I was in a punk band 449 00:21:58,246 --> 00:22:00,080 and it was a lot my voice that would give me away 450 00:22:00,081 --> 00:22:01,665 but so I'd go kind of in and out 451 00:22:01,666 --> 00:22:04,042 and I worked construction and I was in a lot 452 00:22:04,043 --> 00:22:06,836 of like predominantly male fields. 453 00:22:06,837 --> 00:22:08,129 Being queer and looking the way we did, 454 00:22:08,130 --> 00:22:09,339 it was, you didn't get jobs. 455 00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:11,800 You know, you kind of stayed in your lane 456 00:22:11,801 --> 00:22:13,176 because there weren't a lot of options. 457 00:22:13,177 --> 00:22:15,679 That changed as things got more mainstream acceptable 458 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,556 but there were just things that, you know, 459 00:22:17,557 --> 00:22:19,891 it's like, oh, you're going to do carpentry 460 00:22:19,892 --> 00:22:20,810 and you're going to be a dancer and you're going to, 461 00:22:20,811 --> 00:22:22,894 you know, we stayed in these very blue collar, 462 00:22:22,895 --> 00:22:25,105 physical jobs which I stayed into all the way 463 00:22:25,106 --> 00:22:27,190 after my MFA and second feature 464 00:22:27,191 --> 00:22:29,276 because I ran out of work and there was, you know, 465 00:22:29,277 --> 00:22:31,778 the economy crashed and I was painting buildings again 466 00:22:31,779 --> 00:22:34,030 and just like, there were these real limitations 467 00:22:34,031 --> 00:22:36,950 to looking like an outsider, that kind of stayed with you. 468 00:22:36,951 --> 00:22:38,451 - When I moved to California 469 00:22:38,452 --> 00:22:40,495 I did have trouble finding work. 470 00:22:40,496 --> 00:22:42,455 My old job, my old documents, 471 00:22:42,456 --> 00:22:44,749 they were all in, well that male name. 472 00:22:44,750 --> 00:22:46,710 But I have a friend, she's like me 473 00:22:46,711 --> 00:22:47,961 and she helped me take a position 474 00:22:47,962 --> 00:22:49,796 as a receptionist at a hair salon. 475 00:22:49,797 --> 00:22:51,673 - Does the owner know about you? 476 00:22:51,674 --> 00:22:53,258 - They know I can type. 477 00:22:53,259 --> 00:22:55,552 - Well, yes, I have a job. 478 00:22:55,553 --> 00:23:00,265 I work in an office, pink collar work. 479 00:23:00,266 --> 00:23:03,727 It's practically impossible to make the work interesting. 480 00:23:03,728 --> 00:23:04,728 - I can't work. 481 00:23:05,563 --> 00:23:08,356 I can't get a job as a man or a woman. 482 00:23:08,357 --> 00:23:09,441 When I lived in the South, 483 00:23:09,442 --> 00:23:11,860 I used to go into white people's homes and cook 484 00:23:11,861 --> 00:23:12,737 for a bit of money. 485 00:23:12,738 --> 00:23:15,363 I was a good cook. 486 00:23:15,364 --> 00:23:18,074 - Trying to hold down a job and everything 487 00:23:18,075 --> 00:23:19,659 that comes with that, being able to pay rent, 488 00:23:19,660 --> 00:23:21,036 being able to save up for surgery, 489 00:23:21,037 --> 00:23:22,037 being able to live, 490 00:23:22,038 --> 00:23:24,080 it all really comes down 491 00:23:24,081 --> 00:23:26,541 to whether you have access to the workplace 492 00:23:26,542 --> 00:23:27,376 because of gender 493 00:23:27,377 --> 00:23:29,544 and whether it's been racially segregated 494 00:23:29,545 --> 00:23:31,379 and I think we see a lot of that 495 00:23:31,380 --> 00:23:33,298 for Georgia. And there's a lot of lack 496 00:23:33,299 --> 00:23:35,759 of autonomy that comes with not being able 497 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,636 to earn your own wages. 498 00:23:37,637 --> 00:23:39,763 - I'm having a hard time getting work. 499 00:23:39,764 --> 00:23:42,682 I still have an F on my license. 500 00:23:42,683 --> 00:23:44,643 - My friend Henry is a lot like me, 501 00:23:44,644 --> 00:23:47,145 but I fear he's a little depressed, 502 00:23:47,146 --> 00:23:49,939 I don't think the testosterone is helping him. 503 00:23:49,940 --> 00:23:53,610 - When I first contacted Dr. Wynn in Southern California, 504 00:23:53,611 --> 00:23:57,030 he said that it was unethical to remove healthy organs. 505 00:23:57,031 --> 00:23:58,448 After the long recovery, 506 00:23:58,449 --> 00:24:01,368 they told me they wanted to operate again, 507 00:24:01,369 --> 00:24:04,621 I couldn't handle any more poking and prodding. 508 00:24:04,622 --> 00:24:07,667 - We will return to our story after the break. 509 00:24:08,668 --> 00:24:11,044 I was just realizing story-wise, Morgan, 510 00:24:11,045 --> 00:24:14,631 that we have it built in about surgery 511 00:24:14,632 --> 00:24:19,637 and Dr. Wynn saying 'won't operate on healthy organs' 512 00:24:19,887 --> 00:24:22,306 but then we have this after a long recovery line 513 00:24:23,641 --> 00:24:27,686 because we haven't built in the fact that Henry had cancer. 514 00:24:27,687 --> 00:24:29,270 - Oh yeah, he had cancer. 515 00:24:29,271 --> 00:24:30,106 - He had cancer. 516 00:24:30,106 --> 00:24:30,981 - Probably died of cancer, right? 517 00:24:30,982 --> 00:24:33,900 - To be honest, I think he killed himself. 518 00:24:33,901 --> 00:24:34,694 - Oh, really? 519 00:24:34,694 --> 00:24:35,611 Oh God, that's terrible. 520 00:24:35,612 --> 00:24:36,945 - (indistinct) 521 00:24:36,946 --> 00:24:37,863 - I think so. 522 00:24:37,864 --> 00:24:39,447 - Oh wow, that's a drag. 523 00:24:39,448 --> 00:24:41,825 - Like, not very long after this 524 00:24:41,826 --> 00:24:42,660 - Oh really? 525 00:24:42,661 --> 00:24:44,119 Oh, wow. - Interview. 526 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:46,746 Kristen and I were able to find some people's birth 527 00:24:46,747 --> 00:24:51,459 and death dates and he's one 528 00:24:51,460 --> 00:24:53,753 of the people who we were able to identify 529 00:24:53,754 --> 00:24:56,423 as having died quite early. 530 00:24:56,424 --> 00:24:57,258 - Wow. 531 00:24:57,258 --> 00:24:58,092 - And because of some 532 00:24:58,093 --> 00:25:00,927 of the writing about his depression and his sort 533 00:25:00,928 --> 00:25:04,431 of despondent orientation to his circumstances- 534 00:25:04,432 --> 00:25:05,432 - Right. 535 00:25:06,434 --> 00:25:07,726 - We think that that's probably what happened. 536 00:25:07,727 --> 00:25:08,561 - Yeah. 537 00:25:08,562 --> 00:25:10,979 A lot of his isolation was probably 538 00:25:10,980 --> 00:25:13,189 because he didn't know how 539 00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:16,526 to handle disclosure and it is tricky. 540 00:25:16,527 --> 00:25:19,487 I mean, even for, sometimes for me, it's tricky. 541 00:25:19,488 --> 00:25:21,906 I mean, obviously I'm public, but not everybody knows. 542 00:25:21,907 --> 00:25:24,659 I don't announce it to everybody I know. 543 00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:27,036 You know, but when I say I'm a writer and they say, well, 544 00:25:27,037 --> 00:25:27,872 what do you write? 545 00:25:27,872 --> 00:25:28,706 I mean, I'm a poet. 546 00:25:28,707 --> 00:25:30,790 So I've got a poetry book out now, you know, 547 00:25:30,791 --> 00:25:35,044 but if they ask, well, I say I wrote a memoir and they say, 548 00:25:35,045 --> 00:25:35,921 what was that about? 549 00:25:35,922 --> 00:25:38,591 Then I have to, you know, then I have to spill the beans. 550 00:25:39,633 --> 00:25:42,010 - One of the most extraordinary things about 551 00:25:42,011 --> 00:25:47,016 our archival find was a full copy 552 00:25:47,349 --> 00:25:51,019 of Henry's autobiography manuscript 553 00:25:51,020 --> 00:25:54,397 that he had obviously handed to Garfinkel 554 00:25:54,398 --> 00:25:56,232 at some point throughout their sessions 555 00:25:56,233 --> 00:26:00,612 and I think it's like a 47 page document, 556 00:26:00,613 --> 00:26:03,239 a totally extraordinary snapshot 557 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,408 into someone's own self-narration. 558 00:26:05,409 --> 00:26:10,288 I really continue to think about the presence of these texts 559 00:26:10,289 --> 00:26:15,043 that were never published and are otherwise inaccessible 560 00:26:15,044 --> 00:26:18,171 and how we can hold them now 561 00:26:18,172 --> 00:26:21,633 and I brought a little excerpt of part 562 00:26:21,634 --> 00:26:24,719 of Henry's life writing that I wanted 563 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,973 to offer up to you and I wonder if you might read it. 564 00:26:28,974 --> 00:26:29,974 - Yeah. 565 00:26:33,270 --> 00:26:34,938 So he writes, 566 00:26:34,939 --> 00:26:37,190 there is not as much difference 567 00:26:37,191 --> 00:26:40,944 between men and women as our society would have us believe, 568 00:26:40,945 --> 00:26:44,489 both sexes have hearts that can be light 569 00:26:44,490 --> 00:26:47,534 with pressure or heavy with misery, 570 00:26:47,535 --> 00:26:52,498 both have tear ducts, but men are not supposed to use them. 571 00:26:52,748 --> 00:26:54,290 Both have muscles 572 00:26:54,291 --> 00:26:56,584 but it is not considered feminine 573 00:26:56,585 --> 00:26:58,420 for a woman to develop hers. 574 00:26:59,380 --> 00:27:00,922 - [Henry voiceover] If only we could learn 575 00:27:00,923 --> 00:27:03,341 to live with each other as individuals, 576 00:27:03,342 --> 00:27:06,719 sharply, we separate the sexes. 577 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,057 We place them in boxes marked male and female, 578 00:27:11,058 --> 00:27:13,852 slam shut the lids and care not 579 00:27:13,853 --> 00:27:17,147 whom we suffocate in the name of conformity. 580 00:27:18,148 --> 00:27:21,609 - I defied the law of standardization. 581 00:27:21,610 --> 00:27:25,029 Consequently, I belong in neither box, 582 00:27:25,030 --> 00:27:26,907 yet, I have been inside both. 583 00:27:31,412 --> 00:27:34,163 - These archival subjects, 584 00:27:34,164 --> 00:27:35,915 these transcripts that we now have access 585 00:27:35,916 --> 00:27:39,544 to are from a moment in time when categories are being made. 586 00:27:39,545 --> 00:27:42,046 Where people in clinics and research institutions 587 00:27:42,047 --> 00:27:46,050 and doctor's offices are thinking this but not that, 588 00:27:46,051 --> 00:27:47,594 well, maybe this means that, and 589 00:27:47,595 --> 00:27:49,429 we're actually in this moment 590 00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:52,015 where these decisions and these comparisons 591 00:27:52,016 --> 00:27:54,392 and these tensions are being animated 592 00:27:54,393 --> 00:27:57,103 by people who are in positions 593 00:27:57,104 --> 00:28:00,189 of structural and institutional power. 594 00:28:00,190 --> 00:28:01,150 - I think one of the ways we could think 595 00:28:01,151 --> 00:28:03,318 about this time period is it's the moment 596 00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:06,237 when people's own everyday lives are starting 597 00:28:06,238 --> 00:28:09,866 to interface with institutional categories. 598 00:28:09,867 --> 00:28:12,619 Categories of law, medicine, psychology, 599 00:28:12,620 --> 00:28:14,704 social science and so we're seeing 600 00:28:14,705 --> 00:28:16,956 that as antagonism, right? 601 00:28:16,957 --> 00:28:18,374 I think today we're often led 602 00:28:18,375 --> 00:28:20,668 to believe like our categories will set us free. 603 00:28:20,669 --> 00:28:22,086 Oh, we authored them all. 604 00:28:22,087 --> 00:28:24,631 We have these lovely words like trans and transgender 605 00:28:24,632 --> 00:28:26,007 and non-binary that have nothing 606 00:28:26,008 --> 00:28:28,551 to do with medicine and so we'll be totally set free 607 00:28:28,552 --> 00:28:30,094 because you're in the driver's seat. 608 00:28:30,095 --> 00:28:31,429 You call yourself whatever you want. 609 00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:33,097 You've got your pronouns and you're good to go. 610 00:28:33,098 --> 00:28:35,058 But when we come back to this time period, 611 00:28:35,059 --> 00:28:38,144 we see that these categories, which are systems 612 00:28:38,145 --> 00:28:42,065 of classification, ways of drawing hard lines 613 00:28:42,066 --> 00:28:43,524 and if you're on this side of the line, 614 00:28:43,525 --> 00:28:46,361 you're out and if you're on this side of the line, 615 00:28:46,362 --> 00:28:47,362 you're lucky, right? 616 00:28:47,363 --> 00:28:49,530 Agnes is here, Georgia is here. 617 00:28:49,531 --> 00:28:52,200 And what we see in this time period is 618 00:28:52,201 --> 00:28:54,827 that those categories are the product of struggle. 619 00:28:54,828 --> 00:28:56,287 It's a showdown. 620 00:28:56,288 --> 00:28:59,624 That's why the talk show is so apt, it's a tête-à-tête, 621 00:28:59,625 --> 00:29:01,501 but one person has a lot more credibility 622 00:29:01,502 --> 00:29:02,336 than the other person. 623 00:29:02,337 --> 00:29:04,170 One person is considered an expert. 624 00:29:04,171 --> 00:29:05,213 The other person is considered 625 00:29:05,214 --> 00:29:07,548 to not know anything about themselves. 626 00:29:07,549 --> 00:29:09,550 - Do you consider yourself to be homosexual? 627 00:29:09,551 --> 00:29:12,136 - In the beginning I was lumped in with homosexuals, 628 00:29:12,137 --> 00:29:14,598 but I've never considered myself to be one. 629 00:29:17,101 --> 00:29:19,560 - I don't understand the line of questioning. 630 00:29:19,561 --> 00:29:21,354 - I've always been connected to the gay world. 631 00:29:21,355 --> 00:29:23,231 I knew all the butches and the diesel dykes 632 00:29:23,232 --> 00:29:25,984 in college and I realized I wasn't the only one 633 00:29:25,985 --> 00:29:28,903 in the world experiencing female masculinity. 634 00:29:28,904 --> 00:29:30,905 - Well, I tried to go back to the gay bars 635 00:29:30,906 --> 00:29:33,199 but they treated me like a tourist. 636 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,452 I feel more confident with the heterosexual crowd, 637 00:29:36,453 --> 00:29:38,955 as long as they don't know anything about my situation. 638 00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:42,333 Well, yeah, to me it makes sense, 639 00:29:42,334 --> 00:29:44,460 even though it seems like it shouldn't make sense 640 00:29:44,461 --> 00:29:47,714 but it makes sense 'cause I am a heterosexual, right? 641 00:29:47,715 --> 00:29:49,007 Kind of a weird one. 642 00:29:49,008 --> 00:29:53,219 But if I'm around gay and lesbian people, 643 00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:55,221 at some point, it'll, you know, they assume that, 644 00:29:55,222 --> 00:29:57,306 you know, gay men might assume I'm gay and it's like, 645 00:29:57,307 --> 00:29:59,225 well, I'm not. 646 00:29:59,226 --> 00:30:00,727 - The thing that I hear 647 00:30:00,728 --> 00:30:02,770 in Denny's voice is something I connect to which is, 648 00:30:02,771 --> 00:30:03,938 you know, I'm not, 649 00:30:03,939 --> 00:30:06,482 I don't really identify as a straight male 650 00:30:06,483 --> 00:30:08,192 or cis-male at all, I really, 651 00:30:08,193 --> 00:30:11,154 but I don't identify as a lesbian at all either. 652 00:30:11,155 --> 00:30:13,906 I really feel that I'm, this in-between sort 653 00:30:13,907 --> 00:30:16,409 of version and that there's like, 654 00:30:16,410 --> 00:30:18,453 the paradox is sort of become my friend. 655 00:30:18,454 --> 00:30:20,705 - I remember the first time I went out into gay life, 656 00:30:20,706 --> 00:30:23,207 it was a bar in Detroit called The Fox. 657 00:30:23,208 --> 00:30:25,168 I walked in wearing women's apparel 658 00:30:25,169 --> 00:30:27,295 and I knew right away that was a mistake. 659 00:30:27,296 --> 00:30:28,422 - What kind of a mistake? 660 00:30:29,923 --> 00:30:34,927 - It's easier to be a homosexual in those kinds of places. 661 00:30:34,928 --> 00:30:36,721 We need to create our own spaces. 662 00:30:36,722 --> 00:30:38,389 There's like a hint of kind 663 00:30:38,390 --> 00:30:40,641 of like disappointment and almost patronizing quality 664 00:30:40,642 --> 00:30:42,310 in the way that Barbara interacts 665 00:30:42,311 --> 00:30:43,770 with the doctor in the transcript 666 00:30:43,771 --> 00:30:47,690 when she realizes that he's not really in the know. 667 00:30:47,691 --> 00:30:51,027 - Some other people I've spoken to talk about pretense. 668 00:30:51,028 --> 00:30:52,445 - Pretense? 669 00:30:52,446 --> 00:30:56,115 - Being a man, but having to pass as a woman. 670 00:30:56,116 --> 00:30:57,700 - There's no pretense. 671 00:30:57,701 --> 00:30:59,035 If it is in you to be female 672 00:30:59,036 --> 00:31:01,788 and women's apparel help you make a success of it, 673 00:31:01,789 --> 00:31:02,830 then so be it. 674 00:31:02,831 --> 00:31:04,665 - Yes, well, that's what everyone says 675 00:31:04,666 --> 00:31:08,795 but some do admit that it is hard to shake off the pretense. 676 00:31:08,796 --> 00:31:11,297 - I don't feel that way. 677 00:31:11,298 --> 00:31:13,299 When I was a female impersonator, I was acting 678 00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:16,969 but it's not like when I left I took off my face 679 00:31:16,970 --> 00:31:18,971 and became a different person. 680 00:31:18,972 --> 00:31:20,640 - I was wondering if you could help me make sense 681 00:31:20,641 --> 00:31:23,643 of some of the frictions or relationship 682 00:31:23,644 --> 00:31:27,230 between trans, cross-dressing and drag communities 683 00:31:27,231 --> 00:31:28,815 as you understand them. 684 00:31:28,816 --> 00:31:32,860 - When I first went out to clubs dressed as a woman, 685 00:31:32,861 --> 00:31:33,986 and at that time that would have been 686 00:31:33,987 --> 00:31:35,196 considered cross-dressing 687 00:31:35,197 --> 00:31:36,864 'cause I wasn't living my life that way. 688 00:31:36,865 --> 00:31:38,783 It seemed to me that the lines 689 00:31:38,784 --> 00:31:41,244 between us all were a little bit blurrier. 690 00:31:41,245 --> 00:31:43,913 You know, prior to social media, 691 00:31:43,914 --> 00:31:47,667 prior to this particular phase of identity politics, 692 00:31:47,668 --> 00:31:50,461 there was a kind of sense of behind closed doors 693 00:31:50,462 --> 00:31:52,088 we were all just, you know, 694 00:31:52,089 --> 00:31:54,674 the freaks and the others and gay in some way, 695 00:31:54,675 --> 00:31:56,551 shape or form, whatever that meant. 696 00:31:56,552 --> 00:31:59,220 - Many of us, when we come out of one box, 697 00:31:59,221 --> 00:32:01,305 we hop into another box. 698 00:32:01,306 --> 00:32:02,974 This is what it means to be trans, 699 00:32:02,975 --> 00:32:04,350 this is what it means to be gay, 700 00:32:04,351 --> 00:32:07,186 and have learned some unhealthy, I think, 701 00:32:07,187 --> 00:32:10,815 performance behavior in performing gender along those lines. 702 00:32:10,816 --> 00:32:12,608 - There were people who were uncomfortable 703 00:32:12,609 --> 00:32:14,861 being seen as trans. 704 00:32:14,862 --> 00:32:15,903 It tended to be people who 705 00:32:15,904 --> 00:32:18,030 regardless of how they felt inside had 706 00:32:18,031 --> 00:32:21,492 at one point in time been seen by the world 707 00:32:21,493 --> 00:32:23,119 as straight white men and their way 708 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,579 of coping with that was to try 709 00:32:24,580 --> 00:32:26,956 to eliminate the word that sparked 710 00:32:26,957 --> 00:32:29,667 that discomfort and to draw very clean 711 00:32:29,668 --> 00:32:31,043 and distinct lines between them 712 00:32:31,044 --> 00:32:34,922 and drag because drag queens really were men. 713 00:32:34,923 --> 00:32:35,799 So it was all about kind 714 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,509 of creating these rhetorical boundaries. 715 00:32:38,510 --> 00:32:39,552 - Some of our other guests say 716 00:32:39,553 --> 00:32:42,096 that they frequently end up on the wrong side of the law. 717 00:32:42,097 --> 00:32:43,848 - I never have a problem, 718 00:32:43,849 --> 00:32:45,683 but we are putting together information 719 00:32:45,684 --> 00:32:47,518 who is arrestable based 720 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:49,854 on newspaper clippings that we've collected. 721 00:32:49,855 --> 00:32:52,190 - And in the street, do you run into trouble? 722 00:32:52,191 --> 00:32:54,984 - There will always be ignorant people, 723 00:32:54,985 --> 00:32:56,694 but I experienced much more aggression 724 00:32:56,695 --> 00:32:58,946 when I was perceived as a homosexual. 725 00:32:58,947 --> 00:33:01,282 - I've put a bit of paint over the F 726 00:33:01,283 --> 00:33:04,202 on my driver's license but the police scraped it off. 727 00:33:04,203 --> 00:33:07,872 They asked me, are you a man or a woman? 728 00:33:07,873 --> 00:33:11,251 And I said, well, that's a matter of opinion. 729 00:33:12,377 --> 00:33:17,340 - I was pulled over for drunk driving in 1955 and 730 00:33:17,341 --> 00:33:19,467 yeah, I was worried I was going to get booked 731 00:33:19,468 --> 00:33:22,011 for being a sexual degenerate. 732 00:33:22,012 --> 00:33:23,221 Once you're in the books, 733 00:33:23,222 --> 00:33:25,349 you're in the books for the rest of your life. 734 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,352 - My husband had a baseball game. 735 00:33:29,353 --> 00:33:31,979 I decided I would wear a pair of Capri pants 736 00:33:31,980 --> 00:33:36,776 and these Japanese flats. These vice cops picked me up, 737 00:33:36,777 --> 00:33:37,945 said I was soliciting. 738 00:33:39,029 --> 00:33:40,780 I don't need to do that. 739 00:33:40,781 --> 00:33:42,407 I have someone taking care of me. 740 00:33:43,533 --> 00:33:46,745 They just kept asking, are you a man or a woman? 741 00:33:47,663 --> 00:33:49,665 And took me to jail. 742 00:33:50,916 --> 00:33:53,334 - And where's the harassment most common? 743 00:33:53,335 --> 00:33:58,256 - Everywhere. Mexico, Chicago, Washington, 744 00:33:58,257 --> 00:33:59,548 you can't get away from it. 745 00:33:59,549 --> 00:34:01,802 I'm sick and tired of it. 746 00:34:03,262 --> 00:34:04,845 I walk like a woman. 747 00:34:04,846 --> 00:34:06,138 I feel like a woman, 748 00:34:06,139 --> 00:34:08,809 everything I do is feminine and still. 749 00:34:13,188 --> 00:34:16,649 - How long has this harassment been going on? 750 00:34:16,650 --> 00:34:17,650 - Forever. 751 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,158 - I actually find it really hard to sit with Georgia. 752 00:34:27,577 --> 00:34:29,746 I think a lot is put on her shoulders at the time 753 00:34:31,373 --> 00:34:34,500 and so we encounter her in that context 754 00:34:34,501 --> 00:34:36,627 and there's only so much we can do. 755 00:34:36,628 --> 00:34:39,422 We're not there. And I think, you know, 756 00:34:39,423 --> 00:34:40,965 beyond the initial surprise 757 00:34:40,966 --> 00:34:45,971 to find a brilliant, pedagogical, well-spoken, 758 00:34:47,472 --> 00:34:48,889 buttoned-up Black trans woman 759 00:34:48,890 --> 00:34:53,561 in the mid-century speaking back to Garfinkel. 760 00:34:53,562 --> 00:34:58,482 Beyond that, there's some real tough questions about 761 00:34:58,483 --> 00:35:01,819 what she let slip about how hard her life really is 762 00:35:01,820 --> 00:35:04,071 and the way that she tries to package that 763 00:35:04,072 --> 00:35:06,490 for him so he can understand it. 764 00:35:06,491 --> 00:35:08,659 Because there's a color line separating the two 765 00:35:08,660 --> 00:35:11,454 of them and it's really at this time period 766 00:35:11,455 --> 00:35:14,123 and unbridgeable gulf of white supremacy 767 00:35:14,124 --> 00:35:17,001 and Jim Crow and a lot of that has to do 768 00:35:17,002 --> 00:35:19,670 with the divide between public space 769 00:35:19,671 --> 00:35:22,214 and private space. And so it's no coincidence 770 00:35:22,215 --> 00:35:25,926 that iconic trans women of the era, 771 00:35:25,927 --> 00:35:26,762 the Christine Jorgensen's 772 00:35:26,763 --> 00:35:29,221 and the Agnes' are beautiful white women 773 00:35:29,222 --> 00:35:30,140 that we can imagine 774 00:35:30,141 --> 00:35:33,517 in a kitchen - making dinner for their husbands. 775 00:35:33,518 --> 00:35:38,439 The private sphere is a refuge for those lucky enough 776 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,734 by the color of their skin and their income 777 00:35:41,735 --> 00:35:44,612 to be able to flee to the suburbs where you can't be seen. 778 00:35:44,613 --> 00:35:49,116 But for poorer Black trans people and trans people 779 00:35:49,117 --> 00:35:51,452 of color living in places like LA, 780 00:35:51,453 --> 00:35:55,664 moving through space was just 781 00:35:55,665 --> 00:35:57,625 as dangerous then in some ways as it is now. 782 00:35:57,626 --> 00:35:59,126 Walking down the street 783 00:35:59,127 --> 00:36:01,087 which is the story that Georgia tells, 784 00:36:01,088 --> 00:36:04,882 is enough reason to be picked up for prostitution, 785 00:36:04,883 --> 00:36:08,469 for sex work, because just to exist and walk 786 00:36:08,470 --> 00:36:10,471 through the world in public space 787 00:36:10,472 --> 00:36:11,889 as a Black trans woman was 788 00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:14,393 to be considered guilty of a crime. 789 00:36:20,607 --> 00:36:22,691 - [Chase] I think often about the relationship 790 00:36:22,692 --> 00:36:25,236 between visibility and vulnerability. 791 00:36:25,237 --> 00:36:29,157 - Yes, yes. 792 00:36:30,409 --> 00:36:34,245 You know, with the talk shows, 793 00:36:34,246 --> 00:36:37,873 with, you know, media, with all of the, 794 00:36:37,874 --> 00:36:42,253 even the fact that with news now we're actually starting 795 00:36:42,254 --> 00:36:43,963 to hear some of the reports 796 00:36:43,964 --> 00:36:47,466 of the trans murders and to think the violence 797 00:36:47,467 --> 00:36:49,218 that our community experiences. 798 00:36:49,219 --> 00:36:52,096 At the same time, you know, 799 00:36:52,097 --> 00:36:56,851 more visibility provides us with so much more opportunities. 800 00:36:56,852 --> 00:37:00,229 Those who are in the more privileged 801 00:37:00,230 --> 00:37:04,191 parts of our community experience, get more privileged. 802 00:37:04,192 --> 00:37:06,277 Those who are in the most vulnerable parts 803 00:37:06,278 --> 00:37:10,030 of our community are more vulnerable and so, 804 00:37:10,031 --> 00:37:13,159 sort of spotlight turns into this sort of magnifying glass. 805 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,494 It's like this kid holding a magnifying glass 806 00:37:15,495 --> 00:37:18,873 over an ant and burning it because we burn up, 807 00:37:18,874 --> 00:37:20,249 a lot of people in those margins, 808 00:37:20,250 --> 00:37:21,792 we burn up under that spotlight. 809 00:37:21,793 --> 00:37:24,170 When you're in the hood and now they know 810 00:37:24,171 --> 00:37:26,255 how to look for trans people and what to look 811 00:37:26,256 --> 00:37:28,424 for and what have you like, you know, 812 00:37:28,425 --> 00:37:32,636 all eyes are on you and it's not always a good feeling. 813 00:37:32,637 --> 00:37:37,642 - I think visibility is such a hotly contested 814 00:37:38,727 --> 00:37:41,395 topic in our community because our survival 815 00:37:41,396 --> 00:37:43,731 has been predicated on invisibility. 816 00:37:43,732 --> 00:37:45,316 There was always an impulse, I think, 817 00:37:45,317 --> 00:37:48,068 to avoid other trans people. 818 00:37:48,069 --> 00:37:50,404 I remember early in my journey identifying 819 00:37:50,405 --> 00:37:54,951 other trans women in particular in public space and like, 820 00:37:55,911 --> 00:37:59,914 instead of having a moment of recognition 821 00:37:59,915 --> 00:38:03,126 and acknowledgement, it was like a moment of 822 00:38:04,544 --> 00:38:05,378 anxiety. 823 00:38:05,379 --> 00:38:06,462 - I did have a moment where I was 824 00:38:06,463 --> 00:38:09,006 in a diner in Brooklyn and this young woman came 825 00:38:09,007 --> 00:38:10,925 in with her boyfriend and sat down right next 826 00:38:10,926 --> 00:38:12,968 to me and I had that whole kind of moment of like, 827 00:38:12,969 --> 00:38:13,803 should I say something? 828 00:38:13,804 --> 00:38:15,763 Does she know who I am? Or whatever, and on the way out, 829 00:38:15,764 --> 00:38:17,806 like I just looked at her and she just looked up 830 00:38:17,807 --> 00:38:19,183 and it was just a, you know, 831 00:38:19,184 --> 00:38:21,060 just like the subtlest of head nods and we went 832 00:38:21,061 --> 00:38:23,312 about our day, but that was really powerful. 833 00:38:23,313 --> 00:38:24,147 It's like, we're just out 834 00:38:24,148 --> 00:38:27,066 in public doing our thing and we're not alone. 835 00:38:27,067 --> 00:38:28,108 - The thing about women, 836 00:38:28,109 --> 00:38:31,820 cis-women that we still have yet to sort 837 00:38:31,821 --> 00:38:34,990 of claim is that cis-women come in all shapes, 838 00:38:34,991 --> 00:38:39,996 sizes and tones. And so you have cis-women with deep voices. 839 00:38:40,247 --> 00:38:42,289 You have cis-women with broad shoulders. 840 00:38:42,290 --> 00:38:45,709 You have cis-women who are six feet tall or more. 841 00:38:45,710 --> 00:38:47,586 Cis-women with Adam's apples. 842 00:38:47,587 --> 00:38:50,798 But when you're talking about trans women, 843 00:38:50,799 --> 00:38:54,134 then when we come together, 844 00:38:54,135 --> 00:38:55,928 it's sort of an addition up to 845 00:38:55,929 --> 00:38:59,181 what will get us clocked and we can't have an Adam's apple, 846 00:38:59,182 --> 00:39:02,601 a six foot and baritone all in the same group 847 00:39:02,602 --> 00:39:04,895 or else we're all gonna get clocked. 848 00:39:04,896 --> 00:39:06,272 - I also think it's kind of interesting 849 00:39:06,273 --> 00:39:08,482 that with trans people there was an interesting, 850 00:39:08,483 --> 00:39:11,151 this kind of historical accident 851 00:39:11,152 --> 00:39:13,904 that the people who got elevated the highest 852 00:39:13,905 --> 00:39:15,239 were actually those 853 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:19,076 who shared an identity with the people who are most at risk. 854 00:39:19,077 --> 00:39:20,953 The fact that it was Black trans women 855 00:39:20,954 --> 00:39:23,914 who became ultimately the face of the movement 856 00:39:23,915 --> 00:39:25,499 while it was Black trans women 857 00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:27,126 who were most at risk in the movement. 858 00:39:27,127 --> 00:39:29,086 - Can you do me a favor or yeah, 859 00:39:29,087 --> 00:39:31,714 the favor, of summarizing the Laverne, 860 00:39:31,715 --> 00:39:34,175 Katie Couric encounter? 861 00:39:35,677 --> 00:39:38,262 - It was interesting to watch on TV 862 00:39:38,263 --> 00:39:41,432 because it was such a milestone for us 863 00:39:41,433 --> 00:39:42,309 as trans people 864 00:39:42,310 --> 00:39:46,312 to see two trans people on Katie Couric's show, 865 00:39:46,313 --> 00:39:49,023 Laverne Cox and Carmen Carrera 866 00:39:49,024 --> 00:39:52,526 and what you saw was at first, Katie tries 867 00:39:52,527 --> 00:39:55,487 to ask these very invasive questions about, 868 00:39:55,488 --> 00:39:57,323 you know, what surgeries have you had, 869 00:39:57,324 --> 00:40:00,951 what's going on with your body to Carmen Carrera and Carmen, 870 00:40:00,952 --> 00:40:03,954 I think might not have had the words at the time 871 00:40:03,955 --> 00:40:06,582 but she knew in her body just something felt wrong 872 00:40:06,583 --> 00:40:07,542 about that question. 873 00:40:07,543 --> 00:40:09,918 She's like, oh, I actually kind of don't want 874 00:40:09,919 --> 00:40:13,839 to answer that question and then Laverne came out 875 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,674 and Katie kind of tried 876 00:40:15,675 --> 00:40:17,426 to come back again and was like, well, 877 00:40:17,427 --> 00:40:18,802 I asked Carmen these questions 878 00:40:18,803 --> 00:40:21,597 and she felt it was a little intrusive, what do you think? 879 00:40:21,598 --> 00:40:23,641 And Laverne had the words. 880 00:40:23,642 --> 00:40:25,059 - The preoccupation with transition, 881 00:40:25,060 --> 00:40:27,061 with surgery, objectifies trans people 882 00:40:27,062 --> 00:40:28,896 and then we don't get to really deal 883 00:40:28,897 --> 00:40:30,481 with the real lived experiences. 884 00:40:30,482 --> 00:40:32,733 The reality of trans people's lives is 885 00:40:32,734 --> 00:40:35,361 that so often we're targets of violence. 886 00:40:35,362 --> 00:40:38,072 The homicide rate in the LGBT community is highest 887 00:40:38,073 --> 00:40:41,200 amongst trans women and when we focus on transition, 888 00:40:41,201 --> 00:40:44,036 we don't actually get to talk about those things. 889 00:40:44,037 --> 00:40:46,872 This is the reality of so many trans people's lives 890 00:40:46,873 --> 00:40:48,290 in this country, trans women 891 00:40:48,291 --> 00:40:50,584 of color whose lives are in danger simply 892 00:40:50,585 --> 00:40:52,753 for being who they are and we're looking 893 00:40:52,754 --> 00:40:55,547 for justice for Islan's murder and we're looking 894 00:40:55,548 --> 00:40:57,466 for justice for so many trans people 895 00:40:57,467 --> 00:40:59,968 across this country and by focusing on bodies, 896 00:40:59,969 --> 00:41:02,054 we don't focus on the lived realities 897 00:41:02,055 --> 00:41:04,223 of that oppression and that discrimination. 898 00:41:04,224 --> 00:41:08,185 - We turn to Laverne Cox and we turn to Janet Mock 899 00:41:08,186 --> 00:41:10,479 and we turn to Angelica Ross and people 900 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:15,485 who are going to show us a path forward, 901 00:41:15,527 --> 00:41:17,528 speak truth to power and we love it, 902 00:41:17,529 --> 00:41:19,822 but we don't think about the pressure 903 00:41:19,823 --> 00:41:22,032 that that puts on them and we don't think 904 00:41:22,033 --> 00:41:23,867 about what it means to be put in that position, 905 00:41:23,868 --> 00:41:25,786 where you can either sink or swim 906 00:41:25,787 --> 00:41:28,831 and I think people are tired of swimming. 907 00:41:28,832 --> 00:41:33,711 You shouldn't have to be a saint, you know, to get a job. 908 00:41:33,712 --> 00:41:35,922 - [Host] So Georgia, what's next? 909 00:41:41,928 --> 00:41:42,928 - I don't know. 910 00:41:47,058 --> 00:41:48,726 I don't know. 911 00:41:48,727 --> 00:41:51,104 This whole thing just has me so sick with worry 912 00:41:53,982 --> 00:41:58,987 and I read my Bible, stay faithful, but I don't know. 913 00:42:04,409 --> 00:42:06,870 I feel good about being a woman 914 00:42:09,956 --> 00:42:11,082 but everything else, 915 00:42:18,339 --> 00:42:19,424 I don't know. 916 00:42:21,551 --> 00:42:23,720 (humming) 917 00:43:19,526 --> 00:43:21,568 - I feel this kind of responsibility 918 00:43:21,569 --> 00:43:24,906 for Georgia that is totally inappropriate. 919 00:43:27,867 --> 00:43:29,243 I don't know Georgia. 920 00:43:29,244 --> 00:43:30,828 My life is nothing like her. 921 00:43:30,829 --> 00:43:33,038 I'm a trans woman of color, I'm not Black. 922 00:43:33,039 --> 00:43:34,164 I don't share that experience. 923 00:43:34,165 --> 00:43:35,249 I'm not from the South. 924 00:43:35,250 --> 00:43:37,125 I never lived in that time period. 925 00:43:37,126 --> 00:43:38,794 I don't know shit about Georgia 926 00:43:38,795 --> 00:43:41,421 and in that way I'm much like Garfinkel. 927 00:43:41,422 --> 00:43:43,549 There's what I think I know about her. 928 00:43:43,550 --> 00:43:45,300 There's what I want her to mean for me 929 00:43:45,301 --> 00:43:47,761 and I've had to work really hard in my life 930 00:43:47,762 --> 00:43:51,723 to understand that that's also how I'm treated 931 00:43:51,724 --> 00:43:54,226 in the world. And I think it's really painful 932 00:43:54,227 --> 00:43:58,397 to try and turn to the past to learn a lesson 933 00:43:58,398 --> 00:43:59,731 for this moment 934 00:43:59,732 --> 00:44:01,817 when I just see the same thing happening 935 00:44:01,818 --> 00:44:02,901 over and over again. 936 00:44:02,902 --> 00:44:06,113 One of my first reactions to Agnes was, wow, 937 00:44:06,114 --> 00:44:07,031 that's so interesting. 938 00:44:07,032 --> 00:44:08,490 I'm nothing like that. 939 00:44:08,491 --> 00:44:10,368 I could have never been her. 940 00:44:11,661 --> 00:44:13,412 I also don't want to. 941 00:44:13,413 --> 00:44:14,997 I don't want to be her. 942 00:44:14,998 --> 00:44:17,374 But I think part of the problem then is if we think 943 00:44:17,375 --> 00:44:19,251 that Agnes is unrepresentative, 944 00:44:19,252 --> 00:44:22,754 we have to try and figure out what do we do 945 00:44:22,755 --> 00:44:25,424 with the fact that she's iconic. And she's iconic 946 00:44:25,425 --> 00:44:28,510 in this positive sense that she was very visible 947 00:44:28,511 --> 00:44:31,597 because she ticked a lot of the boxes 948 00:44:31,598 --> 00:44:33,640 and so she was able to leverage that, right? 949 00:44:33,641 --> 00:44:34,975 She got things done. 950 00:44:34,976 --> 00:44:38,770 She outwitted Robert Stoller, 951 00:44:38,771 --> 00:44:40,689 she got hormones, she got surgery, 952 00:44:40,690 --> 00:44:43,275 she made a life for herself, right? 953 00:44:43,276 --> 00:44:46,153 And I don't begrudge her that for a moment. 954 00:44:46,154 --> 00:44:48,071 She saw an opportunity and she took it 955 00:44:48,072 --> 00:44:49,948 and so she's iconic in a certain way 956 00:44:49,949 --> 00:44:54,745 but then we have to go and ask, how is Georgia iconic? 957 00:44:54,746 --> 00:44:56,747 Well, she's not a household name. 958 00:44:56,748 --> 00:45:00,000 Even amongst historians people don't know her story, 959 00:45:00,001 --> 00:45:02,836 but people think they know who she is when they see her, 960 00:45:02,837 --> 00:45:06,089 oh, the Black trans woman from that era, 961 00:45:06,090 --> 00:45:09,468 she must be incarnating all that was horrible 962 00:45:09,469 --> 00:45:12,596 and awful and racist and transphobic. 963 00:45:12,597 --> 00:45:14,181 And so she becomes iconic too, 964 00:45:14,182 --> 00:45:15,808 but almost like a negative icon. 965 00:45:17,644 --> 00:45:19,353 And so it's easy for us to say, well, 966 00:45:19,354 --> 00:45:24,358 Agnes doesn't work because she's too limited as you know, 967 00:45:24,359 --> 00:45:26,109 an icon to stand in for trans people 968 00:45:26,110 --> 00:45:27,986 so we'll just substitute her for Georgia. 969 00:45:27,987 --> 00:45:30,072 And that will be a radical act 970 00:45:30,073 --> 00:45:31,949 because Black trans women haven't had their time 971 00:45:31,950 --> 00:45:33,909 and so we're just doing a good thing, 972 00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:36,119 just like that. Boom, boom. 973 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,206 But it's the same system of icons 974 00:45:39,207 --> 00:45:41,750 and it doesn't take into consideration that, 975 00:45:41,751 --> 00:45:43,710 you know, when all is said and done, 976 00:45:43,711 --> 00:45:45,671 Agnes gets some things that help her life. 977 00:45:45,672 --> 00:45:47,714 Did Georgia get anything out of that experience? 978 00:45:47,715 --> 00:45:49,549 I don't know but it doesn't seem like it. 979 00:45:49,550 --> 00:45:51,426 And she's not the one that we remember 980 00:45:51,427 --> 00:45:54,304 and so I'm really critical of trying 981 00:45:54,305 --> 00:45:56,890 to recuperate the Georgia's of the past 982 00:45:56,891 --> 00:46:00,102 as if that atones for the sins 983 00:46:00,103 --> 00:46:05,065 of that time but also the sins of our present. 984 00:46:05,066 --> 00:46:09,152 One of my mentors in college was teaching me 985 00:46:09,153 --> 00:46:12,531 kind of how to be a historian and one of the things 986 00:46:12,532 --> 00:46:14,908 that she told me that's always stuck with me is she said, 987 00:46:14,909 --> 00:46:17,995 our job is not to act as if we know things about people 988 00:46:17,996 --> 00:46:20,455 that they didn't know about themselves. 989 00:46:20,456 --> 00:46:23,959 And if that's true, then we can't turn 990 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,088 to Georgia just like we can't turn to Agnes 991 00:46:28,089 --> 00:46:30,257 to fix something that's our fault. 992 00:46:30,258 --> 00:46:33,260 We can only meet them in so far 993 00:46:33,261 --> 00:46:34,803 as they exist in this archive 994 00:46:34,804 --> 00:46:36,430 and we can imagine more about them 995 00:46:36,431 --> 00:46:39,099 but we have to admit when that imagining is about 996 00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:41,143 what we want and need from them 997 00:46:41,144 --> 00:46:43,688 and not what they were really there doing. 998 00:46:50,403 --> 00:46:53,238 - If I could talk to Georgia, it really would be, 999 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,451 I just feel like there's this thread through the experience. 1000 00:46:57,452 --> 00:47:02,290 There's a story that I would relate to. 1001 00:47:03,666 --> 00:47:06,502 Girl, how did you make it through? 1002 00:47:10,465 --> 00:47:13,383 I always say, either you like me like this 1003 00:47:13,384 --> 00:47:15,302 or you don't like me at all 1004 00:47:15,303 --> 00:47:17,722 'cause I can't be nobody else but me. 1005 00:47:21,267 --> 00:47:23,393 - Many, many years ago I just gotten my PhD 1006 00:47:23,394 --> 00:47:25,270 and I decided to write a book 1007 00:47:25,271 --> 00:47:28,148 about the history of trans kids, 1008 00:47:28,149 --> 00:47:29,941 partly because there was no book 1009 00:47:29,942 --> 00:47:33,111 about the history of trans kids, partly 1010 00:47:33,112 --> 00:47:35,739 because trans kids were suddenly on 20/20 1011 00:47:35,740 --> 00:47:38,241 and there were being documentaries being made 1012 00:47:38,242 --> 00:47:40,118 about them and there were, you know, 1013 00:47:40,119 --> 00:47:41,495 new characters on TV shows 1014 00:47:41,496 --> 00:47:43,997 and I just had this premonition that like, 1015 00:47:43,998 --> 00:47:47,334 it's about to get really dangerous and really dark 1016 00:47:47,335 --> 00:47:48,668 and I had seen whispers in the archive 1017 00:47:48,669 --> 00:47:52,214 that kids transitioned and we didn't know this. 1018 00:47:52,215 --> 00:47:53,298 It's incredible to meet Jimmy 1019 00:47:53,299 --> 00:47:56,135 because Jimmy is a trans teenager. 1020 00:47:57,011 --> 00:48:00,347 - Hello, Jimmy, thank you for joining us this evening. 1021 00:48:00,348 --> 00:48:02,224 I must admit you are much younger 1022 00:48:02,225 --> 00:48:04,393 than most of the people we've been speaking to. 1023 00:48:05,311 --> 00:48:08,063 - Yeah, I'm a teen. 1024 00:48:08,064 --> 00:48:09,564 - Can you tell me a little bit about your family? 1025 00:48:09,565 --> 00:48:13,193 - I have two brothers and a sister. 1026 00:48:13,194 --> 00:48:14,236 - And what about your parents? 1027 00:48:14,237 --> 00:48:17,906 - My dad is a truck driver and my mom is a housewife. 1028 00:48:17,907 --> 00:48:19,699 - [Morgan] One of the interesting pieces 1029 00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:22,160 of Jimmy's story is that he comes 1030 00:48:22,161 --> 00:48:26,623 into the UCLA clinic with his mom and she's like supportive. 1031 00:48:26,624 --> 00:48:29,377 What do you think about that? 1032 00:48:30,753 --> 00:48:32,546 - I think a lot of things. 1033 00:48:32,547 --> 00:48:35,841 I think that like the space of the clinic is a space 1034 00:48:35,842 --> 00:48:37,884 where the mother can emerge as supportive. 1035 00:48:37,885 --> 00:48:39,553 My kids said that they were this thing 1036 00:48:39,554 --> 00:48:41,721 or that they needed this thing and then I checked 1037 00:48:41,722 --> 00:48:44,099 with an expert and the experts said 1038 00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:47,644 that that was going to be okay and so it could happen. 1039 00:48:47,645 --> 00:48:49,855 - Your parents must be a little overwhelmed 1040 00:48:49,856 --> 00:48:52,190 by your desire for all these changes. 1041 00:48:52,191 --> 00:48:55,652 - Yeah, well, you know, they're old people. 1042 00:48:55,653 --> 00:48:58,196 - I assume you go to school. 1043 00:48:58,197 --> 00:49:00,740 - Yeah, we just switched school districts 1044 00:49:00,741 --> 00:49:03,076 so that I could start the next year as a boy. 1045 00:49:03,077 --> 00:49:04,286 It didn't matter before 1046 00:49:04,287 --> 00:49:06,955 because everybody sounds the same pre-puberty. 1047 00:49:06,956 --> 00:49:09,332 - But you have to practice being a boy? 1048 00:49:09,333 --> 00:49:14,338 - You just grimace, hitch your pants up, and sit down. 1049 00:49:14,839 --> 00:49:17,090 - But there's a difference between wanting 1050 00:49:17,091 --> 00:49:19,218 to be a boy and being a boy. 1051 00:49:21,596 --> 00:49:22,972 - I don't see a difference. 1052 00:49:23,806 --> 00:49:25,182 To be an adolescent is kind of 1053 00:49:25,183 --> 00:49:27,142 to be like truculent or to feel aggrieved 1054 00:49:27,143 --> 00:49:29,311 or to kind of feel like no one around me knows 1055 00:49:29,312 --> 00:49:30,812 what I am going through. 1056 00:49:30,813 --> 00:49:32,564 I think the thing that I really identify 1057 00:49:32,565 --> 00:49:35,650 with here is that for lots of trans adolescents, 1058 00:49:35,651 --> 00:49:36,485 like that's true. 1059 00:49:36,486 --> 00:49:39,237 Like no one around me knows what I'm going through. 1060 00:49:39,238 --> 00:49:42,073 It's like the problem of adolescence writ insanely large. 1061 00:49:42,074 --> 00:49:44,618 - We didn't think there were trans teenagers that long ago. 1062 00:49:44,619 --> 00:49:47,287 A lot of trans kids today think they're the first ones 1063 00:49:47,288 --> 00:49:48,122 to go through this. 1064 00:49:48,123 --> 00:49:49,831 A lot of trans people think whenever you are able 1065 00:49:49,832 --> 00:49:52,667 to finally transition that one of the reasons it's 1066 00:49:52,668 --> 00:49:54,127 so hard is no one's ever done it before. 1067 00:49:54,128 --> 00:49:57,464 And so I really wanted to tell the stories of trans kids. 1068 00:49:57,465 --> 00:49:58,382 I wanted to find them. 1069 00:49:58,383 --> 00:50:00,634 I wanted to go to places like UCLA 1070 00:50:00,635 --> 00:50:02,886 and say they were there too. 1071 00:50:02,887 --> 00:50:04,054 They did it. 1072 00:50:04,055 --> 00:50:05,764 And I decided to write this book 1073 00:50:05,765 --> 00:50:08,391 in a lot of ways because I wanted 1074 00:50:08,392 --> 00:50:10,477 to avoid transitioning 1075 00:50:10,478 --> 00:50:14,522 and I thought if I could write a book 1076 00:50:14,523 --> 00:50:16,733 about trans people that did their lives justice 1077 00:50:16,734 --> 00:50:18,526 then I would have done my piece 1078 00:50:18,527 --> 00:50:22,739 and I wouldn't have to say yes to the thing 1079 00:50:22,740 --> 00:50:27,035 that I wanted. And I'm sure you can relate 1080 00:50:27,036 --> 00:50:28,954 to this in different ways as a maker 1081 00:50:28,955 --> 00:50:31,790 we bring ourselves into what we do 1082 00:50:31,791 --> 00:50:33,792 but sometimes we want so badly 1083 00:50:33,793 --> 00:50:37,045 to escape who we are in our work. 1084 00:50:37,046 --> 00:50:39,506 - I was talking to your mom backstage about the surgery. 1085 00:50:39,507 --> 00:50:42,050 - I got my tonsils out when I was little. 1086 00:50:42,051 --> 00:50:44,052 I don't see how this is much different. 1087 00:50:44,053 --> 00:50:46,304 I know I have male blood cells, 1088 00:50:46,305 --> 00:50:47,639 I just need to get the plumbing fixed. 1089 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,099 - You've already got the hair. 1090 00:50:49,100 --> 00:50:50,350 - Like a surfer. 1091 00:50:50,351 --> 00:50:52,185 - What do you want to do when you grow up? 1092 00:50:52,186 --> 00:50:55,814 - I want live in Malibu and own a yacht. 1093 00:50:55,815 --> 00:50:56,691 - That sounds nice. 1094 00:50:56,692 --> 00:50:59,026 - My grandma says she'll buy the gasoline. 1095 00:51:01,028 --> 00:51:02,279 And I said I'd let her. 1096 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:03,446 - What? 1097 00:51:03,447 --> 00:51:04,656 (laughing) 1098 00:51:04,657 --> 00:51:05,740 - And I said I'd let her. 1099 00:51:05,741 --> 00:51:06,992 - He is trolling the guy. 1100 00:51:06,993 --> 00:51:08,201 - Yeah. - Like he's like I'm gonna say 1101 00:51:08,202 --> 00:51:09,369 the most absurd thing I possibly can. 1102 00:51:09,370 --> 00:51:10,453 - I think so. 1103 00:51:10,454 --> 00:51:14,207 So there are several moments in Jimmy's interviews 1104 00:51:14,208 --> 00:51:15,250 which reading them, especially 1105 00:51:15,251 --> 00:51:16,584 as a transcript and not knowing 1106 00:51:16,585 --> 00:51:19,004 how he said the thing, is really interesting. 1107 00:51:19,005 --> 00:51:21,298 Moments that I read as basically him sort 1108 00:51:21,299 --> 00:51:23,508 of fucking with Garfinkel or like messing with him. 1109 00:51:23,509 --> 00:51:25,427 So there's a skill of playfulness just 1110 00:51:25,428 --> 00:51:26,762 for keeping yourself alive. 1111 00:51:38,316 --> 00:51:41,109 - In the course of like performing this person 1112 00:51:41,110 --> 00:51:42,777 or inhabiting this person, 1113 00:51:42,778 --> 00:51:46,615 there's like a grief that is really there for me. 1114 00:51:48,701 --> 00:51:49,868 This was like one of the things I kind 1115 00:51:49,869 --> 00:51:51,619 of believed that this was new, 1116 00:51:51,620 --> 00:51:53,830 that like this had never happened before and part 1117 00:51:53,831 --> 00:51:55,665 of the reason why all of these horrible things had 1118 00:51:55,666 --> 00:51:57,417 to happen to me and part of the reason 1119 00:51:57,418 --> 00:51:59,711 why when I said like over and over, you have to call me he, 1120 00:51:59,712 --> 00:52:01,171 you have to call me he, please call me he, 1121 00:52:01,172 --> 00:52:02,589 I can't live like this. 1122 00:52:02,590 --> 00:52:03,840 Part of the reason that the answer had 1123 00:52:03,841 --> 00:52:07,260 to be no was that this was all so new 1124 00:52:07,261 --> 00:52:09,554 and no one knew what to do with it. 1125 00:52:09,555 --> 00:52:10,805 Most of the doctors that I saw 1126 00:52:10,806 --> 00:52:12,390 as a youth just had no idea 1127 00:52:12,391 --> 00:52:14,100 what they were talking about and were sort 1128 00:52:14,101 --> 00:52:16,061 of pretending to or not in varying degrees. 1129 00:52:16,062 --> 00:52:17,228 I saw one dude 1130 00:52:17,229 --> 00:52:20,523 who was doing his PhD at UCLA, 1131 00:52:20,524 --> 00:52:22,901 when people want the like reparative therapy anecdote, 1132 00:52:22,902 --> 00:52:24,611 this is the reparative therapy anecdote: 1133 00:52:24,612 --> 00:52:26,029 So he's like telling me this story 1134 00:52:26,030 --> 00:52:30,075 about this trans man patient that he has and he's like, 1135 00:52:30,076 --> 00:52:32,452 so he was dating this girl and he brought the girl 1136 00:52:32,453 --> 00:52:34,996 into my office because it was the first relationship, 1137 00:52:34,997 --> 00:52:38,750 you know, he had tried to have and he was really happy 1138 00:52:38,751 --> 00:52:41,127 with her and they were sitting there together 1139 00:52:41,128 --> 00:52:44,130 and at one point she turned to him and she said, 1140 00:52:44,131 --> 00:52:46,717 'oh honey, I know you're a girl' 1141 00:52:48,552 --> 00:52:51,471 And as a 27 year old man, I'm like, oh, 1142 00:52:51,472 --> 00:52:52,722 I'm sure that there are all kinds 1143 00:52:52,723 --> 00:52:54,682 of ways that they could be understanding themselves, right? 1144 00:52:54,683 --> 00:52:55,934 But at the time I was fucking furious. 1145 00:52:55,935 --> 00:52:57,143 I just was like, why? 1146 00:52:57,144 --> 00:52:58,645 That was a horrible thing to say to him, 1147 00:52:58,646 --> 00:53:00,480 like he should have walked out of the office 1148 00:53:00,481 --> 00:53:03,191 and dumped her right there and the doctor was like, 1149 00:53:03,192 --> 00:53:04,484 no, no, no, you don't understand. 1150 00:53:04,485 --> 00:53:06,277 It was beautiful because that's the only way 1151 00:53:06,278 --> 00:53:07,445 that someone like that could ever 1152 00:53:07,446 --> 00:53:09,906 have a relationship. And I remember being like, well, 1153 00:53:09,907 --> 00:53:11,908 I'm never going to have a relationship like that. 1154 00:53:11,909 --> 00:53:13,201 Like, I'm never going to date somebody 1155 00:53:13,202 --> 00:53:15,245 who thinks I'm a girl. And he looked me 1156 00:53:15,246 --> 00:53:17,705 in my eyes and he said, 1157 00:53:17,706 --> 00:53:19,041 who loves people like that? 1158 00:53:28,259 --> 00:53:30,301 - Am I right to say that you're in a relationship? 1159 00:53:30,302 --> 00:53:31,719 - That's correct. 1160 00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:32,720 He's a decent man. 1161 00:53:33,848 --> 00:53:35,390 - But what about intimacy? 1162 00:53:35,391 --> 00:53:36,391 - What about it? 1163 00:53:39,562 --> 00:53:42,106 - I met my husband in 1955. 1164 00:53:44,108 --> 00:53:47,152 Most men would ask, are you a man or a woman? 1165 00:53:47,153 --> 00:53:50,739 So I had to find a man who liked that sort of thing. 1166 00:53:51,907 --> 00:53:53,575 - And what about love? 1167 00:53:53,576 --> 00:53:56,202 - You know what I say, love is like a gun collection, 1168 00:53:56,203 --> 00:53:59,372 many kinds, many calibers. 1169 00:53:59,373 --> 00:54:02,584 - I've been with June for many years 1170 00:54:02,585 --> 00:54:04,544 and she always told me she'd stay 1171 00:54:04,545 --> 00:54:06,671 with me through any changes. 1172 00:54:06,672 --> 00:54:11,051 - I met Cathy in 1942, love of my life. 1173 00:54:12,011 --> 00:54:14,804 - Sometimes I get so frustrated with my husband 1174 00:54:14,805 --> 00:54:17,015 'cause he's never had to worry 1175 00:54:17,016 --> 00:54:19,142 about anyone other than himself. 1176 00:54:19,143 --> 00:54:23,355 Not just him, most men. 1177 00:54:25,441 --> 00:54:27,525 - Bill and I have been together for some time, 1178 00:54:27,526 --> 00:54:30,279 Bill's a regular guy, normal. 1179 00:54:31,822 --> 00:54:33,615 Most couples have to determine 1180 00:54:33,616 --> 00:54:36,534 whether they're sexually compatible. 1181 00:54:36,535 --> 00:54:41,540 Bill and I had to figure out if we were sexually possible. 1182 00:54:41,624 --> 00:54:43,501 - And what does Bill think of your situation? 1183 00:54:45,419 --> 00:54:46,878 - Bill thinks of my situation 1184 00:54:46,879 --> 00:54:49,423 as like a toothache that the dentist has to pull. 1185 00:54:50,257 --> 00:54:52,009 - But what does Bill know? 1186 00:54:52,885 --> 00:54:54,719 - Well, Bill knows what you know. 1187 00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:55,720 - Well, what do I know? 1188 00:54:56,931 --> 00:54:57,931 - You tell me. 1189 00:54:59,350 --> 00:55:00,558 - I once dated a man who worked 1190 00:55:00,559 --> 00:55:03,144 on the railroad and he didn't know. 1191 00:55:03,145 --> 00:55:04,979 When I finally told him, 1192 00:55:04,980 --> 00:55:08,692 he was in shock but we worked it out. 1193 00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:11,736 You never know what people want 1194 00:55:11,737 --> 00:55:15,907 or how they might react. And my sex is just one part 1195 00:55:15,908 --> 00:55:16,908 of who I am. 1196 00:55:19,828 --> 00:55:21,746 - I guess I think sometimes 1197 00:55:21,747 --> 00:55:26,626 about the risk and walking through doors 1198 00:55:26,627 --> 00:55:28,920 that you can't walk back out of 1199 00:55:28,921 --> 00:55:30,797 and sometimes research feels like that. 1200 00:55:30,798 --> 00:55:33,424 And so we have this social scientific 1201 00:55:33,425 --> 00:55:38,096 and medical archive where trans people come 1202 00:55:38,097 --> 00:55:40,640 and they talk and they're not passive. 1203 00:55:40,641 --> 00:55:42,934 They don't lack the ability to do things. 1204 00:55:42,935 --> 00:55:44,269 They're not, they have, you know, 1205 00:55:44,270 --> 00:55:47,855 they have agency. They talk back, they look at the camera, 1206 00:55:47,856 --> 00:55:49,899 they make gestures, 1207 00:55:49,900 --> 00:55:51,734 they refuse to answer things. 1208 00:55:51,735 --> 00:55:54,362 They are people, but they're not recorded 1209 00:55:54,363 --> 00:55:58,283 as people and so the thing that they're 1210 00:55:58,284 --> 00:56:00,368 so conscious of is that they're always 1211 00:56:00,369 --> 00:56:04,373 in the frame, and Garfinkel or Stoller is outside. 1212 00:56:05,958 --> 00:56:06,917 And at the end of the day, 1213 00:56:06,918 --> 00:56:09,460 he turns off the tape recorder, 1214 00:56:09,461 --> 00:56:11,838 puts his suit jacket back on, 1215 00:56:11,839 --> 00:56:14,883 goes and gets in his car in the parking lot and drives home. 1216 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:19,762 But for the trans people that he's studying, 1217 00:56:19,763 --> 00:56:21,598 they never get that moment, right? 1218 00:56:21,599 --> 00:56:24,517 They're always inside the frame and I think that 1219 00:56:24,518 --> 00:56:27,353 part of what's so hard to try 1220 00:56:27,354 --> 00:56:28,479 and do research differently 1221 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:33,485 than those people did in the mid-century as trans people, 1222 00:56:33,819 --> 00:56:35,862 is that we're not able to leave the frame either. 1223 00:56:35,863 --> 00:56:39,240 We never exit and so I guess sometimes I feel afraid 1224 00:56:39,241 --> 00:56:42,285 that if I walk into this library and I go into this archive, 1225 00:56:42,286 --> 00:56:45,747 I'm never going to walk back out. 1226 00:56:45,748 --> 00:56:48,791 - Have you heard of the work of Dr. Harry Benjamin? 1227 00:56:48,792 --> 00:56:51,628 - I did speak to Dr. Benjamin, but $20 a visit? 1228 00:56:51,629 --> 00:56:53,171 That's outrageous. 1229 00:56:53,172 --> 00:56:54,213 I have friends who know doctors 1230 00:56:54,214 --> 00:56:56,758 who will prescribe hormones for much cheaper. 1231 00:56:56,759 --> 00:56:58,259 - Can you tell me about your experiences 1232 00:56:58,260 --> 00:57:00,011 with doctors at UCLA? 1233 00:57:00,012 --> 00:57:01,471 - Yeah, I see Dr. Lubin. 1234 00:57:01,472 --> 00:57:03,890 He kind of seems like a girl himself. 1235 00:57:03,891 --> 00:57:08,311 I also see Stoller, Goodwin, Rosen and Garfinkel. 1236 00:57:08,312 --> 00:57:11,230 I can't tell if they are trying to help me 1237 00:57:11,231 --> 00:57:13,024 or just help themselves. 1238 00:57:13,025 --> 00:57:16,110 - I've been in contact with Dr. Elmer Belt, 1239 00:57:16,111 --> 00:57:17,862 Christine Jorgensen put me in touch with him. 1240 00:57:17,863 --> 00:57:19,656 He's one of the better surgeons. 1241 00:57:19,657 --> 00:57:22,200 - Not all surgeons are good at these types of procedures? 1242 00:57:22,201 --> 00:57:24,577 - I always say there are three kinds of doctors. 1243 00:57:24,578 --> 00:57:26,412 There are those who are willing. 1244 00:57:26,413 --> 00:57:28,581 There are those who acknowledge that something must 1245 00:57:28,582 --> 00:57:30,416 be done but aren't willing to do it. 1246 00:57:30,417 --> 00:57:33,544 And those who wouldn't do it even if they knew how. 1247 00:57:33,545 --> 00:57:36,006 I've learned to tell which is which very quickly. 1248 00:57:37,257 --> 00:57:40,426 - Trans medicine is sort of a kind 1249 00:57:40,427 --> 00:57:43,680 of accidental stepchild or sibling 1250 00:57:43,681 --> 00:57:45,848 to the medicalization of intersex 1251 00:57:45,849 --> 00:57:48,935 infants and children and adults. And it's really kind 1252 00:57:48,936 --> 00:57:52,355 of a painful tale where we start 1253 00:57:52,356 --> 00:57:55,566 to see this divergence where trans people are asking 1254 00:57:55,567 --> 00:57:58,194 for the very things and being told they can't have them 1255 00:57:58,195 --> 00:57:59,946 that are being really violently 1256 00:57:59,947 --> 00:58:03,491 and forcibly imposed on intersex folks. 1257 00:58:03,492 --> 00:58:05,493 - Are you interested in the surgery? 1258 00:58:05,494 --> 00:58:08,329 - Some people say maybe you'll get fixed like 1259 00:58:08,330 --> 00:58:12,543 that Christine Jorgensen. Maybe. 1260 00:58:14,253 --> 00:58:17,130 - But do you ever feel embarrassed by your situation? 1261 00:58:17,131 --> 00:58:19,966 - I've been in many rooms with many doctors. 1262 00:58:19,967 --> 00:58:21,259 I'm not embarrassed. 1263 00:58:21,260 --> 00:58:22,094 - But they're going 1264 00:58:22,095 --> 00:58:25,471 to remove incredibly important parts of your body. 1265 00:58:25,472 --> 00:58:26,306 (laughing) 1266 00:58:26,307 --> 00:58:27,932 Why are you laughing? 1267 00:58:27,933 --> 00:58:28,892 - Oh, I don't know. 1268 00:58:28,893 --> 00:58:30,393 Why don't you just put it in a little box 1269 00:58:30,394 --> 00:58:33,521 so I can pet it and keep it for the rest of my life. 1270 00:58:33,522 --> 00:58:35,523 - Aren't you worried about complications? 1271 00:58:35,524 --> 00:58:38,860 - This is the upmost complication. 1272 00:58:38,861 --> 00:58:40,528 - [Jules Voiceover] I can remember at the very beginning 1273 00:58:40,529 --> 00:58:45,492 of graduate school I read a kind of sensationalist kind 1274 00:58:45,617 --> 00:58:48,244 of salacious sort of paragraph about Agnes 1275 00:58:48,245 --> 00:58:50,580 that implied the thing that was really interesting 1276 00:58:50,581 --> 00:58:54,542 about her was that she tricked Dr. Robert Stoller 1277 00:58:54,543 --> 00:58:56,669 at UCLA into thinking 1278 00:58:56,670 --> 00:59:00,089 that she was somehow biologically intersex in some way 1279 00:59:00,090 --> 00:59:03,551 when really she had been a trans teenager. 1280 00:59:03,552 --> 00:59:04,886 And I think the story 1281 00:59:04,887 --> 00:59:07,805 that I read suggested she was stealing estrogen pills 1282 00:59:07,806 --> 00:59:09,849 from her mother or something like that. 1283 00:59:09,850 --> 00:59:11,434 - Are you taking any medication? 1284 00:59:11,435 --> 00:59:13,561 - Well, that's a loaded question. 1285 00:59:13,562 --> 00:59:14,813 - Why would it be loaded? 1286 00:59:16,940 --> 00:59:19,902 - Sometimes I take alka tablets or aspirin. 1287 00:59:20,861 --> 00:59:23,070 - And then once the lie was revealed many years later 1288 00:59:23,071 --> 00:59:25,740 after she had gotten what she wanted which was surgery, 1289 00:59:25,741 --> 00:59:28,284 the doctors were left with a kind of bitter taste 1290 00:59:28,285 --> 00:59:29,119 in their mouth. 1291 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:30,912 And I remember reading it and thinking 1292 00:59:30,913 --> 00:59:33,206 this whole thing is a lie. 1293 00:59:33,207 --> 00:59:35,625 You know, I remember thinking this passage is a lie. 1294 00:59:35,626 --> 00:59:37,960 It's not telling the real story. 1295 00:59:37,961 --> 00:59:40,631 - And what do you think of the lie? 1296 00:59:43,258 --> 00:59:48,222 - I think that we are only 1297 00:59:50,307 --> 00:59:53,059 human if we're allowed to be anti-heroes. 1298 00:59:53,060 --> 00:59:54,310 - [Host] So tell me, Agnes. 1299 00:59:54,311 --> 00:59:55,229 - What? 1300 00:59:55,230 --> 00:59:56,979 - [Host] What's next? 1301 00:59:56,980 --> 00:59:58,273 - So what's next. 1302 01:00:02,486 --> 01:00:03,570 My whole life. . 1303 01:00:05,656 --> 01:00:08,826 has been wrapped up getting this one thing. 1304 01:00:10,661 --> 01:00:12,119 Agnes, as you know, 1305 01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,580 somebody who manipulated the system is sort 1306 01:00:14,581 --> 01:00:17,334 of an anti-hero in a lot of ways. 1307 01:00:19,837 --> 01:00:22,839 So I'm okay with the lie. 1308 01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:27,385 You know, I think that we do what we have to do to survive. 1309 01:00:27,386 --> 01:00:29,345 - Do you ever modify your story? 1310 01:00:29,346 --> 01:00:31,430 - I use everything from my past that I can. 1311 01:00:31,431 --> 01:00:32,431 - Everything? 1312 01:00:32,432 --> 01:00:34,225 - I don't change any details. 1313 01:00:34,226 --> 01:00:37,019 - Maybe the response is I don't tell anything 1314 01:00:37,020 --> 01:00:40,106 that might give it away. Like maybe there's like a shorter- 1315 01:00:40,107 --> 01:00:40,941 - I think there's a- 1316 01:00:40,941 --> 01:00:41,859 - It's like a- 1317 01:00:41,860 --> 01:00:44,652 - It's the same thing I do, it's like you share a lot, 1318 01:00:44,653 --> 01:00:48,072 you just omit some things, you know? 1319 01:00:48,073 --> 01:00:49,866 - Do you ever feel like a fraud? 1320 01:00:49,867 --> 01:00:52,618 - Only when I'm dressed like a woman. 1321 01:00:52,619 --> 01:00:55,079 When I get mail delivered to my house in my female name, 1322 01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,206 I just say it's for a neighbor. 1323 01:00:57,207 --> 01:00:58,166 - Many white lies. 1324 01:00:58,167 --> 01:00:59,792 - Oh yeah, many. 1325 01:00:59,793 --> 01:01:01,460 - I felt like for so long, 1326 01:01:01,461 --> 01:01:04,881 I felt this need to refer to my own authenticity 1327 01:01:04,882 --> 01:01:06,674 to sort of like cite my own authenticity 1328 01:01:06,675 --> 01:01:10,011 as like the measure of why I needed people to treat me well. 1329 01:01:10,012 --> 01:01:12,138 Like how real of a man I was. 1330 01:01:12,139 --> 01:01:13,431 - And I love what you say, you know, 1331 01:01:13,432 --> 01:01:14,932 I realized looking back that there were things 1332 01:01:14,933 --> 01:01:16,267 that I had to say about myself 1333 01:01:16,268 --> 01:01:17,435 in order for people to respect me. 1334 01:01:17,436 --> 01:01:20,605 What's an example of something like that for you? 1335 01:01:20,606 --> 01:01:25,151 - Saying, like, when you call me 'she' 1336 01:01:25,152 --> 01:01:27,653 it makes me throw up. 1337 01:01:27,654 --> 01:01:31,908 Like I would make up that I had these like physical symptoms 1338 01:01:31,909 --> 01:01:34,744 which in retrospect I actually did, like, 1339 01:01:34,745 --> 01:01:37,830 I was experiencing like full body dissociation and stuff 1340 01:01:37,831 --> 01:01:42,168 but I didn't like, it was like the distress that I felt, 1341 01:01:42,169 --> 01:01:44,837 I felt like I had to legitimize it by being like, 1342 01:01:44,838 --> 01:01:47,590 I'm throwing up or like, I can't sleep. 1343 01:01:47,591 --> 01:01:48,425 Well, I actually couldn't sleep. 1344 01:01:48,426 --> 01:01:52,219 That was true. But just stuff like that. 1345 01:01:52,220 --> 01:01:54,013 I would come up with these weird things 1346 01:01:54,014 --> 01:01:57,725 'cause it was like the lie was better for the, 1347 01:01:57,726 --> 01:02:00,853 like, I thought that the lie would sound more 1348 01:02:00,854 --> 01:02:02,104 like the truth to them. 1349 01:02:02,105 --> 01:02:05,691 - I have a tricky relationship to the truth 1350 01:02:05,692 --> 01:02:08,069 for myself in terms of just the paradox 1351 01:02:08,070 --> 01:02:13,075 of my own body and what society might call a lie, you know, 1352 01:02:13,367 --> 01:02:14,867 or sometimes what I might call a lie 1353 01:02:14,868 --> 01:02:16,243 if I'm just passing 1354 01:02:16,244 --> 01:02:18,579 and that doesn't necessarily represent my existence 1355 01:02:18,580 --> 01:02:20,039 then it's like, yeah, I think the truth is, 1356 01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,625 you know, it does start to fall into that construct 1357 01:02:22,626 --> 01:02:26,295 of like who can afford certain truths and who cannot. 1358 01:02:26,296 --> 01:02:29,256 - In Agnes' time, you know, 1359 01:02:29,257 --> 01:02:34,262 trans folks were encouraged to present plausible narratives 1360 01:02:34,429 --> 01:02:37,098 which were made up stories about 1361 01:02:37,099 --> 01:02:39,350 where they came from and who they were. 1362 01:02:39,351 --> 01:02:41,894 So you would say, I came from a farm. 1363 01:02:41,895 --> 01:02:45,564 I was, you know, the prom queen. 1364 01:02:45,565 --> 01:02:49,443 It's like, whatever the story might be, 1365 01:02:49,444 --> 01:02:54,449 that is conflated with the notion 1366 01:02:55,158 --> 01:03:00,163 that trans people are presenting a false persona. 1367 01:03:00,998 --> 01:03:03,040 - I just don't think that's unique to trans people though. 1368 01:03:03,041 --> 01:03:04,125 - Tell me more. 1369 01:03:04,126 --> 01:03:06,961 - Well, people are constantly performing a certain self 1370 01:03:06,962 --> 01:03:09,296 in order, you know, to a certain end. 1371 01:03:09,297 --> 01:03:11,048 That's just what we do. 1372 01:03:11,049 --> 01:03:14,301 I mean, it's another version of code switching. 1373 01:03:14,302 --> 01:03:16,637 It's additionally I think exasperated 1374 01:03:16,638 --> 01:03:20,891 because of the sense of duplicity 1375 01:03:20,892 --> 01:03:24,687 and performance being an aspect of transness itself. 1376 01:03:24,688 --> 01:03:27,189 - To me too it speaks to this management 1377 01:03:27,190 --> 01:03:30,443 of these layers of disclosure where I'll tell one kind 1378 01:03:30,444 --> 01:03:31,902 of story in public and I'll hold 1379 01:03:31,903 --> 01:03:35,031 another story in private because I have a broader agenda. 1380 01:03:35,032 --> 01:03:35,866 - That's right. 1381 01:03:35,867 --> 01:03:37,575 - And I wonder, 1382 01:03:37,576 --> 01:03:40,037 what role does truth play in your agenda? 1383 01:03:41,705 --> 01:03:46,084 - Truth is a, ugh, what do I even say about truth? 1384 01:03:48,545 --> 01:03:50,546 I don't know what the hell truth is. 1385 01:03:50,547 --> 01:03:55,552 I mean, I know some experiences have 1386 01:03:56,136 --> 01:03:59,472 a certain kind of resonance that I might describe 1387 01:03:59,473 --> 01:04:01,683 with a lowercase t, truth, 1388 01:04:02,726 --> 01:04:04,060 I don't know, what do you mean by that? 1389 01:04:04,061 --> 01:04:06,687 Why are you asking that question? 1390 01:04:06,688 --> 01:04:09,566 - Now, I have a very hard question. 1391 01:04:10,692 --> 01:04:11,902 Do you have any regrets? 1392 01:04:14,988 --> 01:04:16,447 - That's your hard question? 1393 01:04:16,448 --> 01:04:18,158 - How do you justify the lies? 1394 01:04:19,159 --> 01:04:20,994 - How do you justify your questions? 1395 01:04:24,623 --> 01:04:29,418 - We've all been misled so many times 1396 01:04:29,419 --> 01:04:32,463 and we can watch it happen in real time. 1397 01:04:32,464 --> 01:04:35,925 Garfinkel is misleading America, right? 1398 01:04:35,926 --> 01:04:38,260 Or Mike Wallace is misleading America. 1399 01:04:38,261 --> 01:04:41,972 Trans people are slyly misleading 1400 01:04:41,973 --> 01:04:45,101 every non-trans person they talk 1401 01:04:45,102 --> 01:04:47,770 to in order to protect themselves, to save themselves. 1402 01:04:47,771 --> 01:04:49,396 Medicine has misled us to believe 1403 01:04:49,397 --> 01:04:53,734 that being trans is some sort of medical condition, 1404 01:04:53,735 --> 01:04:55,611 social science has misled us to believe 1405 01:04:55,612 --> 01:04:59,907 that being trans is to be deviant. But, you know, 1406 01:04:59,908 --> 01:05:01,826 trans people have also misled each other 1407 01:05:01,827 --> 01:05:06,831 and told half-truths and we've tried our best 1408 01:05:06,832 --> 01:05:10,126 in really difficult conditions to find ways 1409 01:05:10,127 --> 01:05:12,086 to talk about ourselves and defend ourselves, 1410 01:05:12,087 --> 01:05:14,630 a lot of which are extremely imperfect. 1411 01:05:14,631 --> 01:05:17,383 - So, you know, obviously, 1412 01:05:17,384 --> 01:05:20,261 I'm sparking wildly with some of the things 1413 01:05:20,262 --> 01:05:22,179 that you're saying and thinking 1414 01:05:22,180 --> 01:05:25,307 so much about documentary as another method 1415 01:05:25,308 --> 01:05:27,226 of authority and as another method 1416 01:05:27,227 --> 01:05:31,313 of excavation and interrogation and thinking 1417 01:05:31,314 --> 01:05:33,524 about my role as a white, 1418 01:05:33,525 --> 01:05:36,318 trans masculine person in collaboration with a, 1419 01:05:36,319 --> 01:05:41,157 you know, institutionally embedded, cis, punk, academic, 1420 01:05:41,158 --> 01:05:44,577 like we didn't rehearse that summary of identity, 1421 01:05:44,578 --> 01:05:45,412 but you know, 1422 01:05:45,413 --> 01:05:48,330 and like what role can collaboration 1423 01:05:48,331 --> 01:05:52,334 and storytelling play in shifting the terms of engagement? 1424 01:05:52,335 --> 01:05:53,627 And I don't know, like, 1425 01:05:53,628 --> 01:05:56,505 I'm not sure that we can shift the terms of engagement. 1426 01:05:56,506 --> 01:05:57,382 I'm really not. 1427 01:05:57,383 --> 01:06:00,384 - That question of, can we move the frame? 1428 01:06:00,385 --> 01:06:01,760 Can we do things differently? 1429 01:06:01,761 --> 01:06:04,013 I don't know. 1430 01:06:04,014 --> 01:06:05,764 All I know is I can't do that by myself 1431 01:06:05,765 --> 01:06:07,600 but with both of you, yeah, 1432 01:06:07,601 --> 01:06:08,518 a little bit more, 1433 01:06:08,519 --> 01:06:11,395 with everyone in this project, a lot more, 1434 01:06:11,396 --> 01:06:14,398 with everyone watching who's going to be, 1435 01:06:14,399 --> 01:06:17,109 I hope changed by what they see. 1436 01:06:17,110 --> 01:06:20,113 That's a lot of people all of a sudden. 1437 01:06:21,615 --> 01:06:23,741 - You have a very interesting story. 1438 01:06:23,742 --> 01:06:25,744 Have you ever considered writing a memoir? 1439 01:06:27,412 --> 01:06:30,915 - Doctor asked me to write my autobiography. 1440 01:06:30,916 --> 01:06:32,541 I thought the only reason 1441 01:06:32,542 --> 01:06:35,294 to do it is if it would help someone. 1442 01:06:35,295 --> 01:06:37,379 - Maybe people with your condition would benefit 1443 01:06:37,380 --> 01:06:38,422 from this program. 1444 01:06:38,423 --> 01:06:41,050 - And that relates to what? 1445 01:06:41,051 --> 01:06:42,051 - One of the other women 1446 01:06:42,052 --> 01:06:43,886 that I've spoken to on this subject, 1447 01:06:43,887 --> 01:06:46,013 there couldn't have been a more lonely person. 1448 01:06:46,014 --> 01:06:48,682 She was very young, very passable 1449 01:06:48,683 --> 01:06:50,017 but she's still faced many 1450 01:06:50,018 --> 01:06:52,562 of the troubles common to people like you. 1451 01:06:53,563 --> 01:06:56,065 - My life isn't troubled. 1452 01:06:56,066 --> 01:06:58,234 There's no reason to be lonely. 1453 01:06:58,235 --> 01:06:59,526 People choose to be. 1454 01:06:59,527 --> 01:07:00,946 We are here. 1455 01:07:02,447 --> 01:07:04,365 - Have I said something wrong? 1456 01:07:04,366 --> 01:07:06,159 - I think you're wrong about a lot of things. 1457 01:07:07,619 --> 01:07:09,536 - Thank you for speaking with me tonight, Denny. 1458 01:07:09,537 --> 01:07:11,956 - I bet I've been some help with your program. 1459 01:07:11,957 --> 01:07:13,040 - We end as we began, 1460 01:07:13,041 --> 01:07:16,085 asking questions that do not yet have answers. 1461 01:07:16,086 --> 01:07:17,419 In the eyes of some, 1462 01:07:17,420 --> 01:07:20,130 these individuals represent new frontiers 1463 01:07:20,131 --> 01:07:21,632 of scientific progress, 1464 01:07:21,633 --> 01:07:22,675 in the eyes of others, 1465 01:07:22,676 --> 01:07:25,469 they pose a threat to the very fabric of American life. 1466 01:07:25,470 --> 01:07:28,389 Whether a sign of innovation or inversion, 1467 01:07:28,390 --> 01:07:30,182 only time will tell. 1468 01:07:30,183 --> 01:07:33,436 From our studios in Los Angeles, goodnight. 1469 01:07:49,327 --> 01:07:51,745 - One of the many lies of visibility is 1470 01:07:51,746 --> 01:07:54,082 that being seen is your emancipation. 1471 01:07:58,837 --> 01:08:02,256 We've almost limited our imagination about 1472 01:08:02,257 --> 01:08:05,385 what a good trans life would be or what freedom means 1473 01:08:08,388 --> 01:08:11,349 and associated it with publicity or visibility. 1474 01:08:13,685 --> 01:08:17,229 And even if that's so obviously not true 1475 01:08:17,230 --> 01:08:21,358 for people whose visibility puts them in danger, 1476 01:08:21,359 --> 01:08:23,319 I don't know why we don't ask more often, 1477 01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:25,196 what would it feel like to be left alone? 1478 01:08:26,156 --> 01:08:28,991 What's the right to be invisible? 1479 01:08:28,992 --> 01:08:31,744 And there are so many forms of invisibility 1480 01:08:31,745 --> 01:08:34,788 that we get to see, even in this archive. 1481 01:08:34,789 --> 01:08:38,375 The doctor, the scientist, the white man, 1482 01:08:38,376 --> 01:08:41,462 the non-trans person who kind of just fades 1483 01:08:41,463 --> 01:08:44,631 into the background because we don't linger on them. 1484 01:08:44,632 --> 01:08:45,883 We take them for granted. 1485 01:08:45,884 --> 01:08:47,634 They make sense in this place. 1486 01:08:47,635 --> 01:08:49,053 So even when they're on screen, 1487 01:08:49,054 --> 01:08:51,348 they're relatively invisible. 1488 01:08:52,557 --> 01:08:53,891 But I think sometimes we might look 1489 01:08:53,892 --> 01:08:56,435 at an archive like this and say, oh, what a shame. 1490 01:08:56,436 --> 01:09:01,441 There's no Mexican Americans and LA was full of them. 1491 01:09:01,483 --> 01:09:04,193 There are no immigrants from Asia, right? 1492 01:09:04,194 --> 01:09:05,861 There aren't that many more young people, 1493 01:09:05,862 --> 01:09:07,321 there aren't any really old people. 1494 01:09:07,322 --> 01:09:08,822 Ah, it's so unrepresentative. 1495 01:09:08,823 --> 01:09:12,535 It's so sad that we didn't get those stories. 1496 01:09:14,079 --> 01:09:15,287 Is it though? 1497 01:09:15,288 --> 01:09:17,498 I mean, I think, and this is kind of challenging 1498 01:09:17,499 --> 01:09:18,333 because it asks you 1499 01:09:18,334 --> 01:09:20,125 to go somewhere where we have no evidence, 1500 01:09:20,126 --> 01:09:24,254 everyone who's not on screen might've been damn happy 1501 01:09:24,255 --> 01:09:26,340 that they weren't because they didn't have 1502 01:09:26,341 --> 01:09:28,092 to be put in these situations that were 1503 01:09:28,093 --> 01:09:30,886 so difficult. And so I think something 1504 01:09:30,887 --> 01:09:34,098 that we overlook when returning to the past and noting, 1505 01:09:34,099 --> 01:09:35,766 oh, it's such a partial account, 1506 01:09:35,767 --> 01:09:37,434 we're missing so many people's lives, 1507 01:09:37,435 --> 01:09:39,315 yeah, it's not because they didn't exist though, 1508 01:09:40,063 --> 01:09:41,605 and what they were doing 1509 01:09:41,606 --> 01:09:45,401 with their lives might have so exceeded our imagination 1510 01:09:45,402 --> 01:09:47,277 that one thing I like 1511 01:09:47,278 --> 01:09:48,958 to think about is they get the last laugh. 1512 01:09:55,245 --> 01:09:56,453 And the fact that we don't know 1513 01:09:56,454 --> 01:09:58,580 who they are says very little 1514 01:09:58,581 --> 01:10:00,458 about them and everything about us. 1515 01:10:28,570 --> 01:10:30,320 And so I think there's something 1516 01:10:30,321 --> 01:10:34,700 that we're searching for here that is bigger than any of us 1517 01:10:34,701 --> 01:10:36,702 because you can't carry those burdens. 1518 01:10:36,703 --> 01:10:39,746 People like Agnes lived impossible lives. 1519 01:10:39,747 --> 01:10:43,167 But they lived impossible lives. 1520 01:10:43,168 --> 01:10:45,002 Agnes did the impossible. 1521 01:10:45,003 --> 01:10:48,714 She outwitted every clinician that she worked with. 1522 01:10:48,715 --> 01:10:49,882 She got what she needed. 1523 01:10:49,883 --> 01:10:54,553 She transitioned and then she comes back and she tells them? 1524 01:10:54,554 --> 01:10:57,222 Okay, we don't get everything that she's done. 1525 01:10:57,223 --> 01:10:58,891 We don't know what her motives were, 1526 01:10:58,892 --> 01:11:01,810 but she made that work. 1527 01:11:01,811 --> 01:11:06,106 And we're still living impossible lives today and so to me, 1528 01:11:06,107 --> 01:11:08,484 even if I don't see myself in Agnes, 1529 01:11:08,485 --> 01:11:11,945 if I don't need Agnes' story to make the things 1530 01:11:11,946 --> 01:11:14,364 that are hard in my life work, I still need her. 1531 01:11:14,365 --> 01:11:16,241 You know, I still need to go there. 1532 01:11:16,242 --> 01:11:17,076 I still need to know 1533 01:11:17,077 --> 01:11:21,206 that her impossibility wasn't the end of the story. 1534 01:11:23,666 --> 01:11:24,750 And that there is something 1535 01:11:24,751 --> 01:11:25,876 within the impossible 1536 01:11:25,877 --> 01:11:29,838 or in between a truth and a lie where life takes place. 1537 01:11:29,839 --> 01:11:33,092 (gentle upbeat music)